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Subject: "A Star Wars morality question..." This topic is locked.
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Mr Mech
Member since Jul 02nd 2002
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Thu Mar-02-06 02:55 PM

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"A Star Wars morality question..."


          

Is it wrong for a Jedi to kill a Storm Trooper? Granted they're clones but they're still human and working under orders; but, Yoda straight beheads them like it ain't a thing. I mean, he doesn't even try to cut off a limb or mame them, just straight slaughters them.

Mech

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
A Jedi can kill
Mar 02nd 2006
1
but was killing necessary?
Mar 02nd 2006
3
      Why injur a clone?
Mar 02nd 2006
4
Jedis are cold-blooded hypocrites.
Mar 02nd 2006
2
^^I'm with this guy^^
Mar 02nd 2006
5
Me too
Mar 02nd 2006
7
Damn straight n.m
Mar 02nd 2006
8
RE: Jedis are cold-blooded hypocrites.
Mar 02nd 2006
21
How so? n/m
Mar 02nd 2006
23
      RE: How so? n/m
Mar 04th 2006
50
           RE: How so? n/m
Mar 04th 2006
55
                RE: How so? n/m
Mar 08th 2006
73
"The Jedi are keepers of the peace. not Soldiers" (C) Mace Windu
Mar 03rd 2006
27
      The peace?
Mar 03rd 2006
30
           despise democracy? umm THE OLD REPUBLIC...
Mar 03rd 2006
32
                those are titles
Mar 03rd 2006
35
                Wow, you really showed me
Mar 03rd 2006
37
                     I wasn't trying to "outsmart" you, fella...
Mar 06th 2006
60
                          You lost me with that Prophecy nonsense
Mar 08th 2006
66
                               well, you're getting waaaay deep.
Mar 09th 2006
75
                               I have another Question for you my friend...
Mar 09th 2006
76
WTF? Of course they can kill them. Just not for vengance.
Mar 02nd 2006
6
A Stormtrooper can cap them, but not vice versa?
Mar 02nd 2006
9
storm troopers are under orders
Mar 02nd 2006
10
so... if they are human, then they have the choice to say "no".
Mar 02nd 2006
11
what if they don't have the choice, isn't that even worse?
Mar 02nd 2006
14
      how do they not have a choice? You just said they were...
Mar 02nd 2006
17
           Clones they were. More droid like than human. n/m
Mar 02nd 2006
18
           that's my point. Mech is claiming they are human...and I'm sayin
Mar 02nd 2006
19
           fine...what if they're humans without choice?
Mar 02nd 2006
20
and the Jedi must protect galaxy
Mar 02nd 2006
12
Killing a S.T. is the most senseless shit ever
Mar 03rd 2006
31
      1. Force-lightening is strictly the province of Dark Jedis
Mar 03rd 2006
39
           2 words: force push
Mar 03rd 2006
46
Answer your question I will
Mar 02nd 2006
13
so the Force willed Yoda to kill those troopers?
Mar 02nd 2006
15
means to an end
Mar 02nd 2006
22
thank you for bodying this entire thread,
Mar 02nd 2006
16
RE: A Star Wars morality question...
Mar 02nd 2006
24
You're thinking of clone troopers
Mar 03rd 2006
25
RE: You're thinking of clone troopers
Mar 04th 2006
57
A Jedi can kill, just not out of revenge. Which is where Anakin fucked u...
Mar 03rd 2006
26
I like this post....and thus here's another question.
Mar 03rd 2006
28
fuckin rebels
Mar 03rd 2006
29
but WERE they?
Mar 03rd 2006
34
      RE: but WERE they?
Mar 03rd 2006
36
      RE: but WERE they?
Mar 03rd 2006
40
      Good point about Alderaan, BUT couldn't that be intrpreted as retaliator...
Mar 06th 2006
58
           Nope.
Mar 08th 2006
62
                and even if she hadn't told
Mar 08th 2006
64
      the deathstar was an act of terrorism?
Mar 03rd 2006
43
Well except for the whole "kill the Padawans" thing, I'd ride with The
Mar 03rd 2006
33
they STARTED the fuckion clone wars
Mar 03rd 2006
42
I side with the Empire
Mar 03rd 2006
38
Where in those movies
Mar 03rd 2006
47
^^^ on Point^^^
Mar 06th 2006
59
      Bullshit
Mar 08th 2006
63
           Look at the bigger picture
Mar 08th 2006
65
           Again, bullshit
Mar 08th 2006
70
                But what's the rebel agenda?
Mar 09th 2006
74
                We could argue that Vader had Beru and Owen body'd for personal reasons.
Mar 09th 2006
77
           You make good points.
Mar 08th 2006
69
Anyone who says empire is trying to hard to be cool...
Mar 04th 2006
49
I LOVE how the good guys get so easily villainized
Mar 03rd 2006
41
you would make a terrible martial artist...
Mar 03rd 2006
45
      thats a MASSIVE oversimplification of the circumstances
Mar 04th 2006
52
It would be wrong if the clones were white
Mar 03rd 2006
44
Yoda doesn't count
Mar 04th 2006
48
Morals make the moron
Mar 04th 2006
51
what a bunch of nerds
Mar 04th 2006
53
I am the daughter of nerds
Mar 04th 2006
54
      I'll show you what!
Mar 04th 2006
56
upon watching again, yoda was indeed correct.
Mar 08th 2006
61
GENTRIFICATION!
Mar 08th 2006
67
Only on OKP would heads argue that Jedi's and the Rebels were
Mar 08th 2006
68
The Empire could win a Oscar and get love on OkayPlayer
Mar 08th 2006
71
      It's hard out here for a Sith
Mar 09th 2006
78
self defence is essential
Mar 08th 2006
72

Gemini_Two_One
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1. "A Jedi can kill"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

If it is necessary and not out of anger.


!sig!
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Here's the reason why brothers sale drugs
The same reason why brothers are thugs
For the same reason why my brothers go to school
To escape from under the next man's rule - Cap D

  

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Mr Mech
Member since Jul 02nd 2002
8373 posts
Thu Mar-02-06 03:26 PM

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3. "but was killing necessary?"
In response to Reply # 1


          

Mech

  

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Gemini_Two_One
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4. "Why injur a clone?"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

What life could a clone live with one leg? But in most cases I can think of the Jedi were in a kill or be killed situation.



!sig!
www.myspace.com/gemini2one
http://groups.myspace.com/snakesonplane

Here's the reason why brothers sale drugs
The same reason why brothers are thugs
For the same reason why my brothers go to school
To escape from under the next man's rule - Cap D

  

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colonelk
Member since Dec 10th 2002
5058 posts
Thu Mar-02-06 03:21 PM

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2. "Jedis are cold-blooded hypocrites."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

They deserved their fate.

--------

hell-below.com

  

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buckshot defunct
Member since May 02nd 2003
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Thu Mar-02-06 03:37 PM

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5. "^^I'm with this guy^^"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          


-----------------------------
http://talestosuffice.com/
@kennykeil

  

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MrMajor
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Thu Mar-02-06 04:38 PM

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7. "Me too"
In response to Reply # 5


          

They got what was coming to them. Obi Wan was quick to lop off a muhfuckas arm in a bar fight, when he could have easily mind-tricked'em. The jedi were constantly doing backwards shit, fuckem.

  

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MrMick
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8. "Damn straight n.m"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

--

"Old? Gay? Like decks?"
-The Janitor

  

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Brother_Afron
Member since Jul 06th 2003
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Thu Mar-02-06 07:55 PM

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21. "RE: Jedis are cold-blooded hypocrites."
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

Word up. Ep. 3 exposed them something serious.

Fun is the new gritty

  

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Gemini_Two_One
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Thu Mar-02-06 08:14 PM

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23. "How so? n/m"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          


!sig!
www.myspace.com/gemini2one
http://groups.myspace.com/snakesonplane

Here's the reason why brothers sale drugs
The same reason why brothers are thugs
For the same reason why my brothers go to school
To escape from under the next man's rule - Cap D

  

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Brother_Afron
Member since Jul 06th 2003
3812 posts
Sat Mar-04-06 12:46 PM

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50. "RE: How so? n/m"
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

Most obvious example was when Windu was about to kill the Emperor. Anakin was right, he was a downed opponent, seemingly defenseless, and should have been tried for his crimes. Windu wanting to kill him was just because he was a sith.

Then there was Yoda telling Anakin that he shouldn't be emotionally connected like he was. But as soon as his fellow Jedi started getting murked, Yoda dropped to one knee, obviously emotionally hurt.
Also, Jedi's aren't supposed to feel love or hate, but Obi-wan at the end was visibly angry. "I loved you like a brother" and all that.

Them cats were breaking the rules they kept spouting at Anakin, he peeped game, and along with his own emotional problems that's why he joined the Sith.

Fun is the new gritty

  

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kid
Member since Jul 10th 2002
4437 posts
Sat Mar-04-06 10:31 PM

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55. "RE: How so? n/m"
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

He wasn't going to kill him "just because he was a sith" it was because a fair trial was not possible, Palpatine owned the courts.

****************************************
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Only then will you find that money cannot be eaten

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Brother_Afron
Member since Jul 06th 2003
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Wed Mar-08-06 07:07 PM

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73. "RE: How so? n/m"
In response to Reply # 55


  

          

I don't recall it being said anywhere that the Emperor owned the courts. And frankly I'm not about to subject myself to Ep 1 and 2 to see if it was said.

Eitherway you have the Jedi ready to go around the law simply because they feel it wouldn't provide the decision they'd prefer.

Fun is the new gritty

  

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disco dj
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27. ""The Jedi are keepers of the peace. not Soldiers" (C) Mace Windu"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

think of them as cops, not holy men. They keep the peace throughout the galaxy, but every now and then they have to get their hands dirty.

Just like a cop might kill someone to save lives. Same shit, different dog.

______________



http://www.windimoto.com


http://ten2one.wordpress.com/ <-FEB

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MrMick
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Fri Mar-03-06 02:25 PM

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30. "The peace?"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

You mean the peace in which they rule with an iron fist to maintain their place as the elite class?

They despise democracy, the spread of technology, they manipulate people's minds to get what they want, they are moral absolutists, and they treat every blue collar entity in the galaxy with utter contempt.

These are old arguments, but seriously, "keepers of the peace"?

--

"Old? Gay? Like decks?"
-The Janitor

  

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disco dj
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Fri Mar-03-06 04:16 PM

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32. "despise democracy? umm THE OLD REPUBLIC..."
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

Chancellor Vallorum, Chancellor Palpatine. SENATOR Amidala.

There was a whole "senate" thing going on, kid...


Have you even SEEN "Star Wars"?

______________



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colonelk
Member since Dec 10th 2002
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Fri Mar-03-06 05:02 PM

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35. "those are titles"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

Russia has a President and Senators, but nobody would really call it a democracy.

Some could say the same thing about the U.S. today.

The trappings of democracy does not mean it is really there.

--------

hell-below.com

  

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MrMick
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37. "Wow, you really showed me"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

Taking one part of my argument and ignoring the rest, like a single piece of "false" information matters more than the entire argument.

Also, look at their whole attitude towards the Senate. They protected its members while holding their own Jedi Council which grew increasingly suspicious of the senate's activites even before Palpatine was exposed. Their idea of democracy is clear: let them have their votes and legislation, but at the end of the day we're right and we'll throw down. They never participated directly in democracy, because of course they're above that. Their relationship with the senate was anything but healthy.

Furthermore, Yoda, Windu and Obi-Wan all knew that Annakin was both deeply powerful and deeply disturbed, and posed a great threat to the Jedi and the Republic. Still, they did virtually nothing to prevent his rise to power, and actually aided it by positioning him as a figure of increasing power. Why? Perhaps they were just protecting one of their own, perhaps they intended to use his power to their own advantage. Funny how everytime he broke with the Jedi on an issue he was treated like a child. And anyway, the only one who openly disagreed with him about his attitude towards the Senate was Padme, a senator and not a Jedi.

So yeah, I have seen the movies. But I guess if I disagree with you I must be full of it (what are you, a Jedi?).

--

"Old? Gay? Like decks?"
-The Janitor

  

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disco dj
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60. "I wasn't trying to "outsmart" you, fella..."
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

>Also, look at their whole attitude towards the Senate. They
>protected its members while holding their own Jedi Council
>which grew increasingly suspicious of the senate's activites
>even before Palpatine was exposed.

Couldn't it be said that The Jedi operated as a law enforcement agency? Don't the Police operate independently of local government to some degree? Sure they ophold the laws but they don't participate in the MAKING of those laws.

Their idea of democracy is
>clear: let them have their votes and legislation, but at the
>end of the day we're right and we'll throw down. They never
>participated directly in democracy, because of course they're
>above that. Their relationship with the senate was anything
>but healthy.
>

See above. Also, The Jedi never tried to unravel the Senate. The were distrustful of it to some degree, but they let it thrive, right?



>Furthermore, Yoda, Windu and Obi-Wan all knew that Annakin was
>both deeply powerful and deeply disturbed, and posed a great
>threat to the Jedi and the Republic. Still, they did
>virtually nothing to prevent his rise to power, and actually
>aided it by positioning him as a figure of increasing power.

It was his destiny, AND it was foretold in the propehcy. They had no right to try to interfere with The prophecy. ALSO, they probably didn't know how it would turn out. They just knew something huge was gonna involve Anakin.


>Why? Perhaps they were just protecting one of their own,
>perhaps they intended to use his power to their own advantage.
> Funny how everytime he broke with the Jedi on an issue he was
>treated like a child.

Well, he was kinda behaving like one, wouldn't you say? He was ALWAYS getting emotional. AND he wore his emotions on his sleeve.

And anyway, the only one who openly
>disagreed with him about his attitude towards the Senate was
>Padme, a senator and not a Jedi. A Jedi is supposed to be impartial on certain things.

I don't see the connection. Explain.


______________



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MrMick
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66. "You lost me with that Prophecy nonsense"
In response to Reply # 60


  

          

It's the same argument fundamentalist Christians in the US use to favor Israelis over Palestinians. After all, it is "destiny" that Israel be returned to the Jews.

Look, all I'm saying is that the Jedi were not simply enforcers (excpet maybe of their effed up sense of justice and social hierarchy). They were a politically ambitious group of elites who lacked the numbers or military force for direct control, and tolerated democracy only to the extent that they could manipulate it towards their own ends.

Think about it, if you knew that your government was secretly influenced and manipulated by a small religious cult, how would you feel? If you live in the US, you might already feel that way.

--

"Old? Gay? Like decks?"
-The Janitor

  

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disco dj
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75. "well, you're getting waaaay deep."
In response to Reply # 66


  

          

The Prophecy simply stated "Anakin Skywalker will bring balance to The Force". That's it. It never implied that the Jedi Knights were chosen people or anything. The Prophecy never said HOW Anakin would bring balance to the force. I'm under the impression that that's how shit got fucked up in the first place, because the Jedi Council had to let Anakin follow his destiny rather than stop him. They had to see how things would play out.

Sure, eventually Anakin DID bring the Force into balance by destroying the Emperor (oh, about 19 or 20 years later, but who's counting?). But Yoda and his peeps couldn't interfere with the order of things...

______________



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disco dj
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76. "I have another Question for you my friend..."
In response to Reply # 66


  

          

>
>Think about it, if you knew that your government was secretly
>influenced and manipulated by a small religious cult, how
>would you feel? If you live in the US, you might already feel
>that way.


So are you implying that prior to the Imperial takeover the "people" (whoever and wherever they were), distrusted the Jedi Knights and wanted them taken out of their position of influence? It has been my observation that other than Anakin, the average Jedi wanted no part of politics and politicians at all. (Notice how Obi Wan always deferred meetings with political Big Wigs to Anakin).

______________



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Snow_Flow
Member since Mar 17th 2003
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Thu Mar-02-06 04:12 PM

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6. "WTF? Of course they can kill them. Just not for vengance."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

If it stops evil, then that's how it is. Also there will be disputes of wether clone troopers are truly "human".


Snow_Flow
That's Key Row G!

“keep tryna keep it real by keepin it raw while half of ya’ll still be keepin flawed and all the real heads scream ‘fuck hip-hop’ untill all this mediocre bullshit stops”--Jakki

  

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JtothaI
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9. "A Stormtrooper can cap them, but not vice versa?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

you try and kill me, I'll try and kill you.

  

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Mr Mech
Member since Jul 02nd 2002
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10. "storm troopers are under orders"
In response to Reply # 9


          

So the Jedi know that the storm troopers are being tricked so to speak.

Mech

  

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Snow_Flow
Member since Mar 17th 2003
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Thu Mar-02-06 06:04 PM

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11. "so... if they are human, then they have the choice to say "no"."
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

  

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Mr Mech
Member since Jul 02nd 2002
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Thu Mar-02-06 06:22 PM

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14. "what if they don't have the choice, isn't that even worse?"
In response to Reply # 11


          

Mech

  

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Snow_Flow
Member since Mar 17th 2003
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Thu Mar-02-06 06:36 PM

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17. "how do they not have a choice? You just said they were..."
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

Human. And humans always have the choice of not following orders.


Snow_Flow
That's Key Row G!

“keep tryna keep it real by keepin it raw while half of ya’ll still be keepin flawed and all the real heads scream ‘fuck hip-hop’ untill all this mediocre bullshit stops”--Jakki

  

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Jedi Master Yoda
Member since Apr 19th 2005
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Thu Mar-02-06 06:44 PM

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18. "Clones they were. More droid like than human. n/m"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          


"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

  

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Snow_Flow
Member since Mar 17th 2003
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Thu Mar-02-06 06:47 PM

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19. "that's my point. Mech is claiming they are human...and I'm sayin"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

If they're human then they have a choice not to follow orders. If they are not humans, more like clones, then it doesn't fuckin matter.


Snow_Flow
That's Key Row G!

“keep tryna keep it real by keepin it raw while half of ya’ll still be keepin flawed and all the real heads scream ‘fuck hip-hop’ untill all this mediocre bullshit stops”--Jakki

  

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Mr Mech
Member since Jul 02nd 2002
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20. "fine...what if they're humans without choice?"
In response to Reply # 17


          

Mech

  

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Gemini_Two_One
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12. "and the Jedi must protect galaxy"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          




!sig!
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MrMick
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31. "Killing a S.T. is the most senseless shit ever"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

A) They're mass produced (ergo infinatley replacable).

B) Jedi have a whole host of non-lethal abilities that could take out a storm trooper (have you ever noticed how they're awfully selective about the use of force push, force lightning, and the jedi mind trick?)

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mrhood75
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39. "1. Force-lightening is strictly the province of Dark Jedis"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

Very powerful dark Jedis at that.

2. Mind-tricks take concentration and have to be used in the right situation. Take Yoda's situation: the storm-trooper surprised him from behind, drawning down and about to blast. You think Yoda would even have the time to turn around and say, "Drop your weapons, you will"? Would Stormtroopers even be paying attention? No is both cases. So he's forced to react quickly and decapitate both. It's self-defense.

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MrMick
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46. "2 words: force push"
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

Push those fools over.

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Jedi Master Yoda
Member since Apr 19th 2005
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Thu Mar-02-06 06:20 PM

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13. "Answer your question I will"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Know our code first you must:

There is no emotion;
There is peace.
There is no ignorance;
There is knowledge.
There is no passion;
There is serenity.
There is no death;
There is the Force.


Our views on fighting:
Sadly, a galaxy we live where conflict is a fact of life for far too many beings for us to remain apart from it. But we need not embrace conflict. Master Odan-Urr said: "If a Jedi ignites his lightsaber, he must be ready to take a life. If he is not so prepared, he must keep his weapon at his side." And as Master Yoda teaches: "If a weapon you show, 'A warrior am I!' you say. And who is best must all other warriors know of you." So, avoid unnecessary fighting, a Jedi should not advertise his skill.

But when is it necessary to fight? The Force will show a Jedi when he has no other options, and a wise Jedi trusts the Force in this regard.

When fighting, is it necessary to use one's lightsaber? The answer is no. A lightsaber is an intimidating weapon - but it is not a tool for intimidation. This is what Odan-Urr meant. Do not use a lightsaber to create fear in an opponent. Use it to end the fight as quickly and mercifully as possible. If this means destroying the opponent, so be it. But if a Jedi can end a fight without killing an opponent, so much the better. The best Jedi can avert injury altogether, with only a word.

In the past, some Jedi have taken this to mean that they should carry a second, less deadly weapon. There is no such thing. If a weapon cannot kill, it is not truly a weapon. While a blaster can let a Jedi attack at a distance, it is just as effective - and more in keeping with the Jedi Code - to use the Force instead. This is why all the greatest Jedi carry only a single lightsaber as their weapon, a tool uniquely attuned for use with the Force.

Morals we have:

Morality

The most dangerous quotation ever uttered by a Jedi Master is: "A Jedi is not a creature of morals." Jedi, to mean that a Jedi can do no wrong, has unfortunately translated these words, often.
It actually means that Jedi are not enforcers of morality. While Jedi can bring or restore order and justice, they cannot themselves sit in judgement of others. There are two reasons for this.

First, the galaxy is a vast place, full of cultures that no one Jedi can completely understand. One famous story tells how a Jedi learned that the cannibalistic Colicoids had devoured a companion. When asked why the Jedi later bargained with the very same creatures for starship components, she responded: "Because eating the flesh of sentient creatures is not forbidden by the Jedi Code - but to the Colicoids, not eating the flesh of sentients is a sign of insanity."
This Jedi recognized that punishing the Colicoids for acting according to their nature would be acting out of emotion and ignorance. Similarly not procuring a badly needed engine part would have been punishing herself, out of guilt.

The second reason is that judgement leads to vengeance, and vengeance leads to the dark side. This is easy to understand, though not so easy to practice. Should a known murderer be allowed to go free? Should a man intent on murder be killed? To answer either question, a Jedi must first know the will of the Force. Neither decision can be made hastily, except where lives are threatened.






"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

  

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Mr Mech
Member since Jul 02nd 2002
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Thu Mar-02-06 06:28 PM

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15. "so the Force willed Yoda to kill those troopers?"
In response to Reply # 13


          

That's offly convienent.

Just because a Jedi is ready to take a life when he draws his light saber, that doesn't mean he should.

Mech

  

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Gemini_Two_One
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22. "means to an end"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

Why injur a trooper when they can replace limbs and have him attack you again? To only do him harm would be futile, because you will only have to keep doing it.



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Ice Kareem
Member since Sep 24th 2003
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Thu Mar-02-06 06:32 PM

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16. "thank you for bodying this entire thread,"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

  

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chinsu
Member since Jan 18th 2003
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Thu Mar-02-06 10:36 PM

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24. "RE: A Star Wars morality question..."
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Mar-02-06 10:41 PM by chinsu

  

          

this post needs some pussy. bad. I kid I kid

fuck storm troopers, they jus henchmen anyway. if i was a jedi, i would keep count of how many of dem mutha fuckaz i killed, and have like a competition goin on wit my other jedi pals. and if u kill one a dem niggaz who dressed in black, you know the ones that worked on the deck wit HNIC vader himself, you get extra points.

whats the sense of being a master at light sabres n shit if you cant slash a mutha fucka in half every now an then. if i was a jedi, i would prolly be more evil than vader, lol.

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Nate118
Member since Oct 31st 2005
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Fri Mar-03-06 12:15 AM

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25. "You're thinking of clone troopers"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Storm troopers are what come out of the clone troopers. The storm troopers are actual people. They were just modeled after the discipline and militarism of the clone troopers.

  

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kid
Member since Jul 10th 2002
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57. "RE: You're thinking of clone troopers"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

I thought the StormTroopers were clones also, but there were more than the one "mold" of Jenga Fett eventually

Thats what they said in the latest video game, not the online one, it was called Battlefront II or something.


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disco dj
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26. "A Jedi can kill, just not out of revenge. Which is where Anakin fucked u..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

when he killed all those Tusken Raiders on Tatooine. That was "the start of his motherfuckin ending" (C) Prodigy


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13Rose
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28. "I like this post....and thus here's another question."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

WHO do you side with in the war? The Empire or the Rebels..and state why please.

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YaBoy...Holla@ME
Member since Mar 10th 2005
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29. "fuckin rebels"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

cuz they were RIGHT

Avy: Tyrion disrespects King Joffrey yet again

"If your life consists of NO drankin, NO drugs, NO loose booty, NO fatty foods, NO additives, NO preservatives, AND no waings.......then what the fuck you wanna live so long for, boring ass n****?" - Tay

  

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disco dj
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34. "but WERE they?"
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

look on the surface.

-they wanted to overthrow the government
-they committed a SHITLOAD of crimes to further their agenda (IMO Blowing up the Death Star is basically an act of Terrorism)
-they implored a 'banned' religion (The Jedi Way) in their ideology
-they indiscriminately killed people (The Empire only killed during battles)

I know they've been painted as "good guys" but the Rebels are just as dirty as The Empire...

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colonelk
Member since Dec 10th 2002
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Fri Mar-03-06 05:06 PM

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36. "RE: but WERE they?"
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

>-they wanted to overthrow the government

A genocidal, tyranical government.

>-they committed a SHITLOAD of crimes to further their agenda

So did Messrs. Washington, Jefferson, Adams.

>(IMO Blowing up the Death Star is basically an act of
>Terrorism)

No, it was a inarguably military target. It was an act of war that the Geneva Code would condone.

>-they implored a 'banned' religion (The Jedi Way) in their
>ideology

Not really. They just said "May the Force be with you" a lot.

>-they indiscriminately killed people (The Empire only killed
>during battles)

Alderaan?

>I know they've been painted as "good guys" but the Rebels are
>just as dirty as The Empire...

Nope.

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Snow_Flow
Member since Mar 17th 2003
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Fri Mar-03-06 06:43 PM

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40. "RE: but WERE they?"
In response to Reply # 36


  

          


>>-they indiscriminately killed people (The Empire only killed
>>during battles)
>
>Alderaan?

exactly


Snow_Flow
That's Key Row G!

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disco dj
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58. "Good point about Alderaan, BUT couldn't that be intrpreted as retaliator..."
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

When they destroyed Alderaan, wasn't that a ploy to get Leia to reveal the location of the Rebel Base?


Also, when they destroyed Alderaan, the shit had already jumped up. It wasn't just "let's blow up Alderaan"...


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Kozmikblak
Member since Sep 10th 2002
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Wed Mar-08-06 09:58 AM

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62. "Nope."
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

>When they destroyed Alderaan, wasn't that a ploy to get Leia
>to reveal the location of the Rebel Base?
>
>
>Also, when they destroyed Alderaan, the shit had already
>jumped up. It wasn't just "let's blow up Alderaan"...
>
They threatened to do it to if Leia didn't give the location of the base. She gave the location and they said thank you. Blow the planet anyway. Wicked. The empire is evil. The rebels are trying to reinstill the previous order. The empire was brought about through deceit and trickery on the part of the emperor to seize power. He caused conflict between the members of the republic to bring about strife and the fall of the republic to raise the empire.

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colonelk
Member since Dec 10th 2002
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Wed Mar-08-06 02:39 PM

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64. "and even if she hadn't told"
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

The scale is completely unjustified. It's like we've got some Al Qaida terrorist who knows where Osama is. And the guy happens to be from Egypt. We say, "Tell us where Osama is or we nuke Egypt."

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Fri Mar-03-06 08:13 PM

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43. "the deathstar was an act of terrorism?"
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

wow.

so.... crippling the base of operations of a tyrannical, oppressive and, um EVIL government in order to save the world from these psychos is terrorism?

wow

gotcha

no wonder we have so many red states

  

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disco dj
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33. "Well except for the whole "kill the Padawans" thing, I'd ride with The"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

Empire.

As fucked up as it was, they DID end the Clone Wars, AND they didn't really go around fucking with shit the way The Rebel Alliance does.

but then again, I like Darth Vader, so that might be why I ride with the Empire. Plus they had cooler uniforms than the Rebels...

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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42. "they STARTED the fuckion clone wars"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

what the fuck?

now they get credit for ending it? they ended it by carrying out their plan from the jump.

  

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13Rose
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38. "I side with the Empire"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

I don't like the way they took power but I like them. Neither are good nor bad just opposing interests. It's sort of the same way of looking at the colonists and the British. The colonists of the New World (rebels) and the British (empire) went to war and you would think the Rebels were good. Now we live in the aftermath and we have become the Empire. interesting.

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MrMick
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47. "Where in those movies"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

does it show what exactly is so bad for people under the empire? Or, for that matter, how things are much better under the republic?

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disco dj
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59. "^^^ on Point^^^"
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

everybody revers to the "opressive" Empire and all that, but in ALL the movies they never really show day-to-day oppresive shit under the Empire. In fact, in just about every film the rebels took up residence on a planet that wasn't closely watched by the Empire (Hoth, Endor, etc.). So it might be said that their influence didn't really go "That" far outside of the heavily populated planets. Look at the Gangster underworld and how cats like Jabba the Hutt did their (illegal) thing without Imperial interference. FURTHERMORE, it was even memtioned by Obi Wan that it was releatively easy to travel without Imperial intereference (see "a New Hope" where he says somehing like:" we'd like to travel without any Imperial entanglements") So if nothing else, the Empire didn't really give a shit about what was going on on Tatooine. Sure they had a presence, but other than that, shit operated on a normal level...



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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
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63. "Bullshit"
In response to Reply # 59


  

          


Let's just start with "New Hope" for a second and examine how the "non-oppresive" Empire operates.

First, Vader's star destroyer captures the ship Leia is using to escape/transport plans for the Death Star. Vader asks the Captain where she is, the Captain insists they're on a diplomatic mission (he may well have had no knowledge that Leia had the plans) and isn't forthcoming with Leia location, so Vader breaks his neck. Great interogation technique there.

So Leia gives the plans to R2D2 and C3PO, and the droids escape to Tattoine, and the empire follows them there. The Empire finds the Jawas that took the droids, and after finding out who the Jawas sold the droids too, kills all of them. Why? What purpose did it serve? They also attempt to make it look like Tusken Raiders were responsible for the massacre, shifting the blame away from themselves.

The Empire then goes to the home of Luke's Aunt and Uncle, and after finding out that the droids are no longer there, kills Owen and Beru and destroy the farm. Again, why? What possible tactical purpose does it serve other than attempting to inspire ear and keep the rest of Tattoine's residents in line and subservient to the Empire.

Now, let's look at the Death Star itself, as conceived in "New Hope." It's an instrument of terror, not a means of defense against the rebellion. Near the beginning of the film, Grand Moff Tarkin tells the Empire's other admirals that the Emperor is disolving the Senate to take total control. And how will he rule? "Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station."

Then the Empire uses the Death Star to destroy Alderaan, a peaceful defenseless planet. They decide not to use it against the military target that Leia gave them, because, in Grand Admiral Moff Tarkin's words, it's "too remote to make an effective demonstration." So again, the Empire is blowing up a peaceful, defenseless planet as an object lesson for the other systems in line and living in fear that it could happen to them. Life doesn't sound so damn peachy under control of the Empire, does it?

The bottom line is the Empire was a trynical goverment that ruled by fear and terror. They conducted war under the guise of trying to preserve peace. If you side with the Empire and the way they conducted, you're basically siding with the Nazis.

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MrMick
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65. "Look at the bigger picture"
In response to Reply # 63
Wed Mar-08-06 03:57 PM by MrMick

  

          

How they dealt with the rebesl was messed up, much in the way that US deals with the Iraqi insurgency. Still, I don't buy most of what you are saying.

Vader knew that Leia intended to destroy the death star, which is why he reacted so harshly. The Death Star being "horrible" is an opinion of the rebels, from whose point of view the films are told. You could say the scientists who split the atom were creating something that only served destructive purposes, but then, we wouldn't have x-rays or chemotherapy, would we? Besides, most governments have military bases with comparable destructive capabilities. Just as the US can nuke a country, the Empire can level a planet.

Almost everyone in the films who was harmed by the empire was a part of the rebellion or in some way aiding it or its members. Again, its messed up, but that does not mean that most people had it so bad under the empire, or even that the empire interferred with local matters (The Soviet government tried to control all of its member states, and failed miserbaly).

Lastly, Episodes IV, V, and VI all take place in the midst of a civil war. During times of war, even traditionally non-oppressive governments often act irrationally and oppressively. In fact, the ultimate goal of terrorism is to tempt governments to do so, in order to cause the rulers to do harm to the politically moderate masses, thus forcing them to pick sides.

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mrhood75
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70. "Again, bullshit"
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

The Death Star was conceived and the Empire began developing it even before there ever was a rebellion. It was a battle station designed to destroy a planet, and it was used to inspire fear and keep anyone the entire galaxy under the Emperor's thumb. It was never used for a greater good. This is never disputed by the Empire. In fact, they even brag about it's purpose. It kept order in the same way Mussolini kept the trains running on time.

And even with Dubya under control, the U.S. is not, nor has ever been in the business of nuking peaceful, defenseless countries. By destroying Alderann, the Empire destroyed a peaceful, unarmed planet and killed billions of people as an object lesson. That wasn't Iraq or Iran or North Korea or even Egpyt. That was like nuking Canada completely without provacation.

What harm did Alderaan ever directly due the Empire, besides vocally opposing the Emperor? Did they declare war? Open hostilities? No. Someone involved with the Rebellion happened to be raised there, so that meant it had to be destroyed in their eyes. And this doesn't mention all the various cases of people like Luke's aunt and uncle being killed just because they bought two droids that just happened to contain the schematics of a battle station. That's the type of shit Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia used to pull all the time.

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MrMick
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74. "But what's the rebel agenda?"
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

What do you know about the rebels other than the fact that they opposed the emperor? The fact that Obi-Wan and Yoda orchestrated a Jedi coup of power by placing Luke in position to be the last Jedi and ruler of the universe after Sidius makes me even more suspicious.

I don't see much difference between attacking Iraq and Alderann. Both posed no threat. Besides which, how do you know about the internal policies and practices of that planet? Star Wars does not provide you enough info to take the side of either the rebels or the Empire.

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disco dj
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77. "We could argue that Vader had Beru and Owen body'd for personal reasons."
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

after all they WERE a link to his past as Anakin Skywalker. AND in AOTC didn't he make open reference to how much he hated Tatooine? Maybe he had them killed because they were a living reminder of his fucked up life there as a kid.

Yeah the thing with the Jawas was fucked up, but don't forget, the Tusken Raiders weren't choirboys; they killed Anakin's mom remember? AND they would've killed Luke too, were it not for Obi Wan (whattya know, we've come full circle...)



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13Rose
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69. "You make good points."
In response to Reply # 63


  

          

I will sit back and ponder that for a min.

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Ice Kareem
Member since Sep 24th 2003
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Sat Mar-04-06 04:37 AM

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49. "Anyone who says empire is trying to hard to be cool..."
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

but either way... may the force be with u

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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41. "I LOVE how the good guys get so easily villainized"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

lol

basically, you are saying...

"it's wrong of you to kill someone who was TRYING TO KILL YOU"

so... had the storm trooper killed yoda, would you have said that yoda did the right thing by not protecting himself?

hey, if someone tried to shoot YOU, and he had a gazillion others running around space trying to do the same to you and your people, what would YOU do? what about the fact that they were going to do some real heavy damage to the rest of the known world after the took you out? so now the rest of the universe is fucked. good job.

its like the batman/joker dynamic... bats cant or wont kill, but.... joker keeps right on killing, and batman would and could save a whooooooole lot of people some pain if he would just smoke joker. batman needs to take some jedi notes.

  

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Mr Mech
Member since Jul 02nd 2002
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Fri Mar-03-06 10:11 PM

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45. "you would make a terrible martial artist..."
In response to Reply # 41


          

If you have the ability to avoid killing someone, regardless of whether they're trying to kill you, then you SHOULD avoid it. Maybe when this post is over, we should go slaughter some terrorists.

Mech

  

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Cold Truth
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52. "thats a MASSIVE oversimplification of the circumstances"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

in a straight up, one on one situation, yeah.
i have no interest in killing people

butwhen a billion mother fuckers lead by my mortal enemies- who are hiding themselves as it is- are trying to wipe out my entire race/tribe/whatever all across the fuckin galaxy, so that that dark force can then have ruling control over the world and its inhabitants, YEAH, THINGS CHANGE.

shit aint that simple... so if some crazies send a massive hit squad out to COMPLETELY ERADICATE yourself, your wife, kids, and any one who shares yuor dna- hey, fuck it, lets say there was an open call on black people and bush went all gestapo and pulled a hitler trying to terminate all blacks in america, another holocaust, and sent the entire military force out to murder every single african american they could find, i'm talking complete elimination not just slavery, would you have the same "high moral" standards? if you did, you would last long and niether would blacks if they all shared your mentality.


  

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DrNO
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44. "It would be wrong if the clones were white"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

_
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4TztqYaemt0
http://preptimeposse.blogspot.com/

  

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Cram
Member since Jan 18th 2006
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Sat Mar-04-06 12:31 AM

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48. "Yoda doesn't count"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Yoda is just straight bad ass.

  

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Nettrice
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51. "Morals make the moron"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

IMHO Yoda and the Jedi were similar to Taoists, philosophically. I read this in The Barefoot Dr.'s Guide to the Tao by Stephen Russell:

"Traditionally, the way of morality, of observing the mores, was the Confuncionist path. The followers of old K'ung-Fu-tzu (Confucius), meaning "kung fu master", believe that if you teach a person a set of behavioral responses to match every possible situation, their inner psycho-emotional structure will adapt itself to conform to that outer shape. In other words, shape the external and the internal will conform."

While the author (Russell) thinks there is some validity to the idea or morals he rejects or dismisses them, out and out, because morals do not allow for the fact that every person "contains all possible contradictions and thus relies on suppression and denial of the shadow side to be in any way effective."

Taoism suggests that morals are unnecessary if one moves or acts upon their inner principles or true nature. As a warrior you need no morals, rules, or precepts other than to respect all life as much as your own, respect your own life as if it were the universe itself, help and heal others, inflict minimum damage in love AND war or self-defense against those threatening to damage or destroy you and yours.

>Is it wrong for a Jedi to kill a Storm Trooper? Granted
>they're clones but they're still human and working under
>orders; but, Yoda straight beheads them like it ain't a thing.

Beheading would be fitting for a Taoist because it is quick and inflicts the minimum damage possible to neutralize his or her assailant's force and prevent further trouble.

A Taoist is concerned with balance, with ying and yang (duality). In Star Wars, there was an imbalance in "the Force" which is just another way of saying "the Way" or Tao. In most cases, Jedi's only acted in self-defense. They were not trying to take storm troopers out.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Sat Mar-04-06 08:35 PM

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53. "what a bunch of nerds"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

seriosuly, all of us are huge dorks for this one.

  

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Nettrice
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54. "I am the daughter of nerds"
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

My mother was a computer programmer, so I was born a nerd. She also took me to see Star Wars when it first came out in the theaters.

What?!

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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56. "I'll show you what!"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

dweeb.

lol

seriously though

this is one of the nerdier discussions i have participated in. i am glad you can also admit to the nerdiness of it, however. nerds unite!

  

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Cold Truth
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61. "upon watching again, yoda was indeed correct."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

im sorry. his entire race/species/sect of beings had just been annihilated...

and you have the audacity to question him murkin two clones for trying to add him to that list? the jedi were being eradicated.

you certainly have some questionable morals if you think hi act was immoral.

  

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ZooTown74
Member since May 29th 2002
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Wed Mar-08-06 04:30 PM

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67. "GENTRIFICATION!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I saw that dude the other day at the movies. I almost shouted that out to him, lol...

That's all I have to add.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
<------ And there it is.

  

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nipsey
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68. "Only on OKP would heads argue that Jedi's and the Rebels were"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

morally bankrupt and the Empire was good.
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Gemini_Two_One
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71. "The Empire could win a Oscar and get love on OkayPlayer"
In response to Reply # 68


  

          


!sig!
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Here's the reason why brothers sale drugs
The same reason why brothers are thugs
For the same reason why my brothers go to school
To escape from under the next man's rule - Cap D

  

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disco dj
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78. "It's hard out here for a Sith"
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

.

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Iltigo
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Wed Mar-08-06 05:48 PM

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72. "self defence is essential"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


return to your home citizens

madagascar titties- (c) phontiggalo the rap jiggalo

I would never, ever hit a woman....but i'll beat a bitch (c) wifey

  

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