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Subject: "Fuck that! I'm ready to fight alla y'all!" This topic is locked.
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scorpion
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29592 posts
Wed Dec-07-05 04:01 PM

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"Fuck that! I'm ready to fight alla y'all!"


  

          

Spike Lee's She Hate Me is the most undeservedly slandered filme since, uh...the LAST Spike Lee film....

Give me any criticism you got and I'll show you where youre wrong....

ANY!

All the criticism I've read is absolute bull...and the valid ctriricism I have read is minute...

Spike Lee is a fucking genius and his films keep getting better and better....

Come on, sucka! (c)Della Resse in Harlem Nights...

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
LOL well we've already had this discussion innumerable times
Dec 07th 2005
1
we debate Spike latest shit like once a month.....
Dec 07th 2005
5
AFKAP vs O_E pt:23894930 will be brought to you by....
Dec 07th 2005
2
Basically. n/m
Dec 08th 2005
10
AFKAP no longer exists.
Dec 10th 2005
79
dude, that movie is garbage.
Dec 07th 2005
3
support your claims....
Dec 07th 2005
4
      easy
Dec 07th 2005
6
           not so easy....
Dec 08th 2005
18
                RE: not so easy....
Dec 08th 2005
36
                     ^^^^pleas copped
Dec 08th 2005
49
                          ^^^^corny post
Dec 09th 2005
54
                               apparently not everyone...way to have an unsupported opinion
May 22nd 2006
148
Biggest gripe
Dec 07th 2005
7
RE: Biggest gripe
Dec 07th 2005
8
you must not be familiar with Mr. Lee's films....
Dec 08th 2005
19
      very familiar with Mr. Lee's films....
Dec 08th 2005
37
           why does the whistleblowing intefere with the story?....
Dec 09th 2005
66
                im saying
Dec 11th 2005
82
                RE: why does the whistleblowing intefere with the story?....
Dec 13th 2005
119
the sperm animation sequences
Dec 07th 2005
9
2 movies in 1? more like 3 or 4, if you ask me
Dec 08th 2005
16
gitcha weight up....
Dec 08th 2005
20
      RE: gitcha weight up....
Dec 08th 2005
35
      RE: gitcha weight up....
Dec 08th 2005
38
      so you should KNOW better...
Dec 09th 2005
59
           and i DO know better, and I'm NOT saying they're all alike
Dec 10th 2005
72
                now you saying EACH lesbian character was a stereotype?!?!
Dec 10th 2005
75
      i agree with this analysis, and as a lesbian, i know lesbians.
May 21st 2006
147
The better question
Dec 08th 2005
11
I liked it because...
Dec 08th 2005
21
      sorry, scorp... but they are.
Dec 08th 2005
22
      you're ignoring my point....
Dec 08th 2005
24
      what precisely do the other guys do?
Dec 08th 2005
26
      vincent gallo is NOT a better director than Spike
May 22nd 2006
149
      none of those directors can go film for film with Spike
May 22nd 2006
150
      I think just about everyone says Spike is great, this one movie is bad
Dec 08th 2005
30
      why is the animated sperm so offensive?
Dec 09th 2005
67
           It's not offensive, it's stupid.
Dec 09th 2005
69
           a chick getting shot in the head at point blank range...
Dec 11th 2005
94
                What the hell does that have to do with animated sperm not being funny?
Dec 11th 2005
97
                     the point is....
Dec 11th 2005
98
                          Well, for one thing, he ran it into the ground.
Dec 11th 2005
99
           that shit is extreme comedy in an extreme...thefuck is this genre?..
Dec 15th 2005
136
                RE: that shit is extreme comedy in an extreme...thefuck is this genre?..
Dec 15th 2005
140
      I don't hate Spike. I just don't like Hate Me or He Got Game
Dec 08th 2005
33
      You don't like He Got Game?!?!?!?!!?!?!??!?!!?!
Dec 08th 2005
51
           I only saw it once so I can barely remember it
Dec 09th 2005
53
                You missed the whole point of the movie
Dec 11th 2005
84
                     No. I thought the movie was boring
Dec 11th 2005
91
      RE: I liked it because...
Dec 08th 2005
39
      I think you're just dumb. Aint nothing flowed about that movie..
Dec 15th 2005
135
co-sign everyone above me -- that movie was garbage
Dec 08th 2005
12
HOT garbage, at that. n/m
Dec 08th 2005
13
RE: Fuck that! I'm ready to fight alla y'all!
Dec 08th 2005
14
No, it rightfully deserved to be slaughtered.
Dec 08th 2005
15
why cant you do both?
Dec 08th 2005
23
      ah... but your recap stopped short!
Dec 08th 2005
25
      Sidebar: Turturro was a last minute replacement for Danny Aiello.
Dec 08th 2005
28
      ah... that makes sense.
Dec 08th 2005
29
      seriously....
Dec 08th 2005
31
      Jamel Debbouze
Dec 08th 2005
41
      But she's been a star in many a French film.
Dec 08th 2005
42
      she's Italian but she's more of a French star
Dec 08th 2005
43
           RE: she's Italian but she's more of a French star
Dec 08th 2005
44
                there were rumors that Monica and Vincent had split
Dec 08th 2005
45
                     *buys international plane ticket*
Dec 08th 2005
47
      exactly n/m.
Dec 15th 2005
138
      It's not about 'understanding' anything.
Dec 08th 2005
27
      according to you...
Dec 08th 2005
48
           Examples of good Spike Lee Joints (in no particular order)
Dec 08th 2005
50
                wrong....Spike has always had subplots....
Dec 09th 2005
68
                     And you're still off. PLOT is not the same as STORY.
Dec 09th 2005
71
                          by your defnition....
Dec 10th 2005
76
                               I have to admit
Dec 11th 2005
100
                                    It's not that hard to understand.
Dec 12th 2005
101
                                         I get your point but...
Dec 12th 2005
102
      What you just explained was a first act
Dec 08th 2005
34
      ?
Dec 08th 2005
40
           20 lesbians in a big city with cash....
Dec 11th 2005
92
                RE: 20 lesbians in a big city with cash....
Dec 12th 2005
105
Let the ass whoopings BEGIN!
Dec 08th 2005
17
What if
Dec 08th 2005
32
if the only difference was the director credit
Dec 09th 2005
61
the explanation for the title of the movie is also annoying
Dec 08th 2005
46
***Rocks Rod Smart throwback sewn from the fabirc of hate***
Dec 09th 2005
55
I love it...we bout to get down....n/m
Dec 09th 2005
52
***pushes stainless-steel refridgerator off the top of a building***
Dec 09th 2005
58
      spell my name right before you start internet thuggin'...
Dec 11th 2005
88
           Joke much?
Dec 11th 2005
95
to be honest, i don't even BELIEVE anybody who claims to like this film.
Dec 09th 2005
56
its actually the inverse.....
Dec 09th 2005
57
      you (and i mean *you*, not Spike fans in general) always say that!
Dec 09th 2005
60
           WHERE is this excitement?????
Dec 09th 2005
62
                maybe 'excitement' was the wrong word
Dec 09th 2005
63
seriously tho
Dec 09th 2005
64
what wasnt clear to you?
Dec 09th 2005
65
      what was the movie supposed to be about?
Dec 09th 2005
70
It's two decent movies in one.
Dec 10th 2005
73
RE: It's two decent movies in one.
Dec 10th 2005
74
      you still have to come up with valid criticism....
Dec 10th 2005
77
           i said Bamboozled was terrible then, and i still say it now
Dec 10th 2005
78
           Bamboozled is a GREAT movie
Dec 11th 2005
85
           i'm tired of people falling back on the 'you hate Spike' retort
Dec 11th 2005
86
                ^^^ This post is officially over.
Dec 11th 2005
89
           Let's not throw Field Mob in with that crowd, please
Dec 23rd 2005
145
           RE: you still have to come up with valid criticism....
Dec 11th 2005
81
                so why reply if you're not going to enlighten
Dec 11th 2005
83
                     RE: so why reply if you're not going to enlighten
Dec 11th 2005
90
                          not about other people...
Dec 11th 2005
93
                               RE: not about other people...
Dec 11th 2005
96
are you really going to argue a fucking opinion?
Dec 11th 2005
80
I suggest ...
Dec 11th 2005
87
ORBIT_ESTABLISHED
Dec 12th 2005
103
James Toback
Dec 12th 2005
104
Thanks for ignoring all my other arguments VOL I.
Dec 13th 2005
111
      You're welcome Vol. 1
Dec 13th 2005
113
           Cool and fair, Vol I.
Dec 13th 2005
114
eponymously titled posts are > obnoxious than speaking in the 3rd person
Dec 12th 2005
106
No, Black and White was trash, too.
Dec 12th 2005
107
Thanks for ignoring all my other arguments VOL II
Dec 13th 2005
112
      That's right, my name is Jamal, and I never seent the movie.
Dec 13th 2005
117
BOOM!!! There it is.....
Dec 12th 2005
108
you're copping pleas, scorp
Dec 12th 2005
109
      **SMACK** **SMACK** **SMACK**
Dec 13th 2005
110
      Sampson Simpson!!! I stick by my story!!!
Dec 13th 2005
115
           Were people saying that?
Dec 13th 2005
116
           nah, scorp... you're better off just defending the virtue of *this* film
Dec 13th 2005
118
                I give She Hate Me a 4.25.....
Dec 13th 2005
120
                     i assume that's out of 5?
Dec 13th 2005
121
                          poor comparison....
Dec 13th 2005
123
                               so 'linear' directing isn't art now?
Dec 13th 2005
124
                                    correction:
Dec 14th 2005
130
                                         The movie was 21 Grams
Dec 14th 2005
131
                                              LOL
Dec 14th 2005
132
100% CO-SIGN
Dec 13th 2005
127
Fuck it -- I'll bite...
Dec 14th 2005
134
      ****Strawman Alert****
Dec 15th 2005
137
           How does this quote not imply that?
Dec 15th 2005
139
           Dear Orbit
Dec 15th 2005
141
hahahaha
Dec 13th 2005
122
he has a new movie?
Dec 13th 2005
125
      Denzel, Jodie Foster, Clive owen
Dec 13th 2005
126
the movie was about ETHICS, people....
Dec 13th 2005
128
forget about the ideas the film is supposedly about
Dec 13th 2005
129
RE: Fuck that! I'm ready to fight alla y'all!
Dec 14th 2005
133
she hates me is yet another self indulgent spike lee vehicle
Dec 19th 2005
142
^^^^Standard, unsubstantiated, lame, irrational Spike Hate^^^^
Dec 19th 2005
143
Spike punked out on She Hate Me.
Dec 23rd 2005
144
if he made the whole film surreal and dream like it would have been much...
Jan 03rd 2006
146

AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Wed Dec-07-05 04:10 PM

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1. "LOL well we've already had this discussion innumerable times"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

so you pretty much know everything i'm gonna say...

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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scorpion
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29592 posts
Wed Dec-07-05 04:57 PM

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5. "we debate Spike latest shit like once a month....."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

youre kinda exempt by default...

but if you got 'em, I'll take 'em....no homo....

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

  

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Mynoriti
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37322 posts
Wed Dec-07-05 04:11 PM

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2. "AFKAP vs O_E pt:23894930 will be brought to you by...."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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kurlyswirl
Member since Jul 13th 2002
16693 posts
Thu Dec-08-05 12:50 AM

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10. "Basically. n/m"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          


~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
<-------------- You need to be watching this show.

kurly's Super-Duper Awesome™ DVD Collection:
http://www.dvdaficionado.com/dvds.html?cat=1&id=kurlyswirl

I be Scrobblin': http://www.last.fm/user/TasteeTreat

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52926 posts
Sat Dec-10-05 10:43 PM

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79. "AFKAP no longer exists."
In response to Reply # 2


  

          


Or did you not hear?


----------------------------

O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.

"Any fighter that I face, I say prayers for them every night and that he and I live to fight another day."

(C) Floyd Mayweather Jr.

  

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bignick
Charter member
24054 posts
Wed Dec-07-05 04:39 PM

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3. "dude, that movie is garbage."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

complete and total garbage.
and i'm a huge Spike fan.

  

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scorpion
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29592 posts
Wed Dec-07-05 04:55 PM

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4. "support your claims...."
In response to Reply # 3


  

          


The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

  

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bignick
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24054 posts
Wed Dec-07-05 05:06 PM

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6. "easy"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

my netflix mini-review sums it up.
"A complete and total misfire."

everything a good movie is supposed to be..it wasn't. the story was boring and convoluted. the script was horrible. the acters seemed to be on totally different pages. it was annoyingly preachy. and it was way too long.

  

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scorpion
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29592 posts
Thu Dec-08-05 12:38 PM

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18. "not so easy...."
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

you're still giving me opinions with no support....

"the script was horrible"....what was horrible about it?

"the acters(sic) were on totally different pages..." how so?

come again?

take off the fabric and let's talk abt this movie f'real.....

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

  

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bignick
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24054 posts
Thu Dec-08-05 02:44 PM

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36. "RE: not so easy...."
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

>you're still giving me opinions with no support....
>"the script was horrible"....what was horrible about it?
>"the acters(sic) were on totally different pages..." how so?
>come again?
>take off the fabric and let's talk abt this movie f'real.....

what are you talking about? you asked why i thought the movie was bad. and i told you. i'm not going to go through the She Hate Me script line by line and explain to you why the writing was bad.

  

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buildingblock
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100000 posts
Thu Dec-08-05 06:28 PM

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49. "^^^^pleas copped"
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

...a child is born with no state of mind, blind to the ways of mankind, god is smilin' on you and frownin' too, because only god knows what you gonna do...©melle mel

  

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bignick
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24054 posts
Fri Dec-09-05 02:15 PM

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54. "^^^^corny post"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

the movie sucks. everyone with eyes knows why.

  

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violence
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2983 posts
Mon May-22-06 09:30 AM

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148. "apparently not everyone...way to have an unsupported opinion"
In response to Reply # 54


          

.

  

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jigga
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31583 posts
Wed Dec-07-05 05:14 PM

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7. "Biggest gripe"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

No nudity from Monica Bellucci or Dania Ramirez

We wuz robbed

Besides that, the 2 different plot lines didnt merge 2gether very well. The score didnt fit the scenes very well on several occasions & it was WAY 2 long.

Wrap that shit up Lee!

  

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bignick
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24054 posts
Wed Dec-07-05 05:16 PM

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8. "RE: Biggest gripe"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          


>Wrap that shit up Lee!

yo. the sign is real simple, Lee. it says wrap. it. up. you better wrap that shit up, Lee.

  

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scorpion
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29592 posts
Thu Dec-08-05 12:39 PM

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19. "you must not be familiar with Mr. Lee's films...."
In response to Reply # 7
Thu Dec-08-05 12:40 PM by scorpion

  

          

his films dont tend to be short....

and give me an example of the plot(ther was only one)failed to merge....


The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

  

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jigga
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31583 posts
Thu Dec-08-05 02:47 PM

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37. "very familiar with Mr. Lee's films...."
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

>his films dont tend to be short....

And I dont mind when they're good

>and give me an example of the plot(ther was only one)failed to
>merge....

Only 1!?!?! You're kidding right? Or did you miss the whole whistle blowing thing. Either that or you missed all the lesbians being impregnated. 2 completely different subject matters.

  

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scorpion
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29592 posts
Fri Dec-09-05 10:42 PM

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66. "why does the whistleblowing intefere with the story?...."
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

there is a reason why he would agree to such an arrangement....

Jack is destitute....his assets have been frozen....no one will hire him...

why?

cuz he blew the whistle on a large corporation and they ruined him in retaliation....

what's hard to comprehend about that?


The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

  

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ne_atl
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Sun Dec-11-05 09:26 AM

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82. "im saying"
In response to Reply # 66


  

          

>there is a reason why he would agree to such an
>arrangement....
>
>Jack is destitute....his assets have been frozen....no one
>will hire him...
>
>why?
>
>cuz he blew the whistle on a large corporation and they ruined
>him in retaliation....
>
>what's hard to comprehend about that?


The movie wasn't great, but wasn't bad at all. I believe heads here had a bad opiuion on the film before even watching it.

___________________________________
http://instagram.com/mrellsberry

  

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jigga
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Tue Dec-13-05 03:15 PM

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119. "RE: why does the whistleblowing intefere with the story?...."
In response to Reply # 66


  

          

Cuz it's not handled well. It pops up @ the start. Then we see some flashbacks of Watergate. Then we have a big hearing. In between all of this we've got something else goin on entirely different.

>there is a reason why he would agree to such an
>arrangement....
>
>Jack is destitute....his assets have been frozen....no one
>will hire him...
>
>why?
>
>cuz he blew the whistle on a large corporation and they ruined
>him in retaliation....
>
>what's hard to comprehend about that?

Nothing. But apparently its hard for you 2 comprehend that I (& many others) dont feel that it was handled very well. It just pops up @ random throughout the film & it comes off very preachy.

  

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mc_delta_t
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Wed Dec-07-05 05:59 PM

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9. "the sperm animation sequences"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

the fucking bullshit ass ending (proving once and for all spike hates women)

the fact that it was 2 movies crammed into 1 (how interesting would the story of the security guard at watergate have been? Very)

the ridiculous representation of lesbians (either gorgeous, rich women, or butch, manly, rich women), and the idea that so many of them would go for this, and the idea that all lesbians really like sex with men

I'll have to watch it again and get back to you with more, it's been a while

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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84244 posts
Thu Dec-08-05 09:37 AM

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16. "2 movies in 1? more like 3 or 4, if you ask me"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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scorpion
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29592 posts
Thu Dec-08-05 12:44 PM

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20. "gitcha weight up...."
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

>the fucking bullshit ass ending (proving once and for all
>spike hates women)

what was wrong with the ending? and how that prove misogyny?

Meanwhile every ones love Malena and Irreversible....okay, player...


>the fact that it was 2 movies crammed into 1 (how interesting
>would the story of the security guard at watergate have been?
>Very)

why does a storyline of a film have to be monolithic?

>
>the ridiculous representation of lesbians (either gorgeous,
>rich women, or butch, manly, rich women), and the idea that so
>many of them would go for this, and the idea that all lesbians
>really like sex with men

how familiar are you with lesbians and people of alternate sexuality? judging from the criticism Ive heard about the representation of lesbians,the people who are complaining dont know much about lesbians...it sure seems like you dont...





The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

  

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mc_delta_t
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8260 posts
Thu Dec-08-05 02:31 PM

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35. "RE: gitcha weight up...."
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

>>the fucking bullshit ass ending (proving once and for all
>>spike hates women)
>
>what was wrong with the ending? and how that prove misogyny?

cause these women agree to have a 3 way relationship (the ultimate male fantasy)

>Meanwhile every ones love Malena and Irreversible....okay,
>player...

Irreversible was about how horrible the rape was, I don't really see the relation


>>the fact that it was 2 movies crammed into 1 (how
>interesting
>>would the story of the security guard at watergate have
>been?
>>Very)
>
>why does a storyline of a film have to be monolithic?

it doesn't, it just has to work, and in she hate me it certainly did not

>>the ridiculous representation of lesbians (either gorgeous,
>>rich women, or butch, manly, rich women), and the idea that
>so
>>many of them would go for this, and the idea that all
>lesbians
>>really like sex with men
>
>how familiar are you with lesbians and people of alternate
>sexuality? judging from the criticism Ive heard about the
>representation of lesbians,the people who are complaining dont
>know much about lesbians...it sure seems like you dont...

I was raised by lesbians, lol, my mom worked in the women studies department at the local college so I was constantly being babysat by lesbians

shit I live in portland oregon, there's a lesbian everywhere you turn

I can't believe I'm trying to prove my lesbian understanding cred online

  

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jigga
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38. "RE: gitcha weight up...."
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

>>>the fucking bullshit ass ending (proving once and for all
>>>spike hates women)
>>
>>what was wrong with the ending? and how that prove misogyny?
>
>cause these women agree to have a 3 way relationship (the
>ultimate male fantasy)

I took that more as Spike's message that a father should be in his kid's life. Of course he still had dozens of other kids that he wasnt gonna have an active part in the lives of but

>>Meanwhile every ones love Malena and Irreversible....okay,
>>player...
>
>Irreversible was about how horrible the rape was, I don't
>really see the relation

Yeah you're not the only one

>>>the fact that it was 2 movies crammed into 1 (how
>>interesting
>>>would the story of the security guard at watergate have
>>been?
>>>Very)
>>
>>why does a storyline of a film have to be monolithic?
>
>it doesn't, it just has to work, and in she hate me it
>certainly did not

And Bingo was his name-o

  

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scorpion
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59. "so you should KNOW better..."
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

you should KNOW tha all lesbians arent the same and not all lesbians are anti-dick or even that every woman who's had sex with a another woman or in a relationship with another woman isnt necessary a lesbian....

Julie Cypher, anyone?

and dont you think that Tristan Toarmino would have corrected whatever issues there were in the portrayal of lesbians?

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

  

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mc_delta_t
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Sat Dec-10-05 12:22 AM

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72. "and i DO know better, and I'm NOT saying they're all alike"
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

what I'm saying is spike did the 2 extremes

male fantasy lesbians, and butch lasbians

he was doing what he's usually one of the best about avoiding

portraying stereotypes instead of charachters

  

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scorpion
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75. "now you saying EACH lesbian character was a stereotype?!?!"
In response to Reply # 72


  

          

Oy vey!

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

  

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akon
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147. "i agree with this analysis, and as a lesbian, i know lesbians."
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
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Thu Dec-08-05 01:18 AM

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11. "The better question"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Why did you like it?

I didn't care about the characters, the plot was all over the place, and the ending was just silly. Not only was this movie preachy, but it was ridiculous as well so it was like watching someone just spout off passionately on some nonsense. Passionate nonsense. That's how I'd describe it.

  

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scorpion
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21. "I liked it because..."
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

The plot was refreshingly complex and original....

The acting was excellent...

Lee's visuals are always the shit...

the humor and drama meshed well...

I cared about the chracters...

the movie held my attention...

it was thought provoking...sparked conversation afterwards...

the music was good...

it was funny...

the cast was well chosen...

the narrative flowed smoothly...

the surreal parts were imaginative and entertaining....

it was socially relevant...


I like Lee's style as a filmmaker....the biggest problem with criticism of Spike Lee films is that ppl continually choose to IGNORE what KIND of filmmaker Spike is. He is NOT a mainstream director....Do you understand that?

Lee's shit is always going to be off-kilter, left of center....he does not make popcorn movies....you have John Singleton for that...

you accept David Lynch, you accept Taratino, you accept The Coen Brothers, you accept Jim Jarmusch,...shit, you even accept fucking Vincent Gallo....but Spike's shit is too out for y'all???....

GTFOOHWTBS....(and AF, dont say that those guys are BETTER directors...)

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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22. "sorry, scorp... but they are."
In response to Reply # 21


  

          


>GTFOOHWTBS....(and AF, dont say that those guys are BETTER
>directors...)

well, i don't want to say that they're "better" per se... Spike has his own style that works well for him, and it's been proven that nobody has been successful in biting that style

but Spike's "style" also has so many inherent flaws that being a Spike fan is to be placed in a position of constantly apologizing for his excesses and weird tics ("well... you know he never really ends his movies well." "it's Spike, yo... all his films are too long." "he has that character in all his films.")

so far, it's worked well enough that we've been able to look at some of these qualities as "idiosyncracies" rather than as outright flaws, but with She Hate Me, he went too far with it... some of the bad storytelling is inexcusable.

we've talked enough times about the "show don't tell" thing, but i'll just mention it here in case someone else wants to pick it up: why did Spike choose to show AND tell?

_____________________

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scorpion
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24. "you're ignoring my point...."
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

if Spike is a bad filmmaker, then all of those guys are bad filmamakers becuase they do the same shit if not more, to even higher degrees...

but where Spike gets panned, these mf's get praised.....

and the "Show, dont tell" argument doesnt hold water here....


The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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26. "what precisely do the other guys do?"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

and the "show and tell" argument is WAY valid...

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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violence
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149. "vincent gallo is NOT a better director than Spike"
In response to Reply # 22


          

I want some of that psychedelic kool-aid you're sipping on.

I don't even know if I would call David Lynch a better director than Spike. Lynch could NEVER make as impactful a film as "X" (although I could have done without the schoolchildren ending). Heck, sometimes Lynch is barely coherent.

  

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bignick
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150. "none of those directors can go film for film with Spike"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

none of them.

  

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celery77
Member since Aug 04th 2005
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Thu Dec-08-05 01:34 PM

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30. "I think just about everyone says Spike is great, this one movie is bad"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

>you accept David Lynch, you accept Taratino, you accept The
>Coen Brothers, you accept Jim Jarmusch,...shit, you even
>accept fucking Vincent Gallo....but Spike's shit is too out
>for y'all???....
>
>GTFOOHWTBS....(and AF, dont say that those guys are BETTER
>directors...)

How is criticising this movie criticising Spike Lee?

Personally I consider Spike to most likely be the greatest filmmaker of the last 20 years, and no question he's in the top 2. That doesn't mean that great filmmakers don't make crappy movies from time to time.

She Hate Me was a bad movie, for all the reasons listed in this thread. Did Spike have some good ideas? Sure. Did he execute those ideas to the fullest of his abilities? HELL NO. Spike can do better than this shit.

And frankly any movie with an animated sperm with the lead actors face on it, getting tired as it swims, has an awful lot of making up to do for that alone. This film is not good, sorry.

  

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scorpion
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67. "why is the animated sperm so offensive?"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

the goal was to impregnante these women...

these women are desperate to conceive....

the method is not foolproof....only one sperm cell can do the job....

and....dude is whooped...

the animated sperm conveys all of this in a lighthearted manner....

lighten up, have a sense of humor....

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

  

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kurlyswirl
Member since Jul 13th 2002
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Fri Dec-09-05 11:03 PM

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69. "It's not offensive, it's stupid."
In response to Reply # 67


  

          


~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
<-------------- You need to be watching this show.

kurly's Super-Duper Awesome™ DVD Collection:
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scorpion
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94. "a chick getting shot in the head at point blank range..."
In response to Reply # 69


  

          

or killing a room full of people...that makes total sense, right?


The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

  

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kurlyswirl
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Sun Dec-11-05 04:30 PM

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97. "What the hell does that have to do with animated sperm not being funny?"
In response to Reply # 94


  

          

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
<-------------- You need to be watching this show.

kurly's Super-Duper Awesome™ DVD Collection:
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I be Scrobblin': http://www.last.fm/user/TasteeTreat

  

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scorpion
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Sun Dec-11-05 09:17 PM

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98. "the point is...."
In response to Reply # 97


  

          

if you wouldnt let those thing I mentioned strop you from enjoying a film, then why would the animated sprem color your decision, whether you thought it was stupid or not....its a trivial thing to get hung up on when judging the merit of the film...


The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

  

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kurlyswirl
Member since Jul 13th 2002
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Sun Dec-11-05 09:31 PM

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99. "Well, for one thing, he ran it into the ground."
In response to Reply # 98


  

          

It wasn't like it was a one time thing, so I wouldn't call it "trivial." Besides, there was a whole lot more to hate about the film than that. The animated sperm was one of my lesser issues with it.

And yeah, of course finding an aspect of a film stupid is going to affect my enjoyment and will factor into my judgment. How can it not? Doesn't mean I'm going to completely write it off if the rest of it is good.

>if you wouldnt let those thing I mentioned strop you from
>enjoying a film, then why would the animated sprem color your
>decision, whether you thought it was stupid or not....its a
>trivial thing to get hung up on when judging the merit of the
>film...



~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
<-------------- You need to be watching this show.

kurly's Super-Duper Awesome™ DVD Collection:
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I be Scrobblin': http://www.last.fm/user/TasteeTreat

  

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soulgyal
Member since Nov 09th 2003
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Thu Dec-15-05 03:47 AM

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136. "that shit is extreme comedy in an extreme...thefuck is this genre?.."
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

This movie doesn't even have one...It's like Spike couldn't make up his mind. And the others are right. Just because this movie sucked doesn't mean folx think Spike sucks.

<------------ There's only one way to find out...

http://www.liligi.com
http://lilcreepysmiley.blogspot.com/ (LAST UPDATED: AUGUST 9, 2009)

*****
<3 u Mom: Sep. 3, 1960 -May 1, 2006

  

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jigga
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Thu Dec-15-05 03:00 PM

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140. "RE: that shit is extreme comedy in an extreme...thefuck is this genre?.."
In response to Reply # 136


  

          

>This movie doesn't even have one...It's like Spike couldn't
>make up his mind. And the others are right. Just because
>this movie sucked doesn't mean folx think Spike sucks.

Exactly. But the peeps that ride 4 it like 2 fall back on that excuse once they run out of reasons on how the rest of us some how missed out on this excellent masterpiece.

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
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Thu Dec-08-05 01:41 PM

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33. "I don't hate Spike. I just don't like Hate Me or He Got Game"
In response to Reply # 21


          

If DeNiro and Scorcese had done Clockers as originally planned, it wouldn't have been half the movie that Lee made.

I disagree with a lot of your feelings which is just the nature of the film. It's subjective. I thought the plot was convoluted and silly. The dramatic moments were funnier than the silly moments. John Turturro was horribly miscast as Monica Bellucci's father. They look like brother and sister.

Like most directors, I think Spike has fallen off in his later years. I love his early stuff but I think he'd be better off taking scripts from other writers (like he did with Clockers and Get on the bus) and adding his spin to them.

  

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BISON CLASS of 97
Member since Oct 19th 2004
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Thu Dec-08-05 07:04 PM

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51. "You don't like He Got Game?!?!?!?!!?!?!??!?!!?!"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

why?

"I'm one of the world's great survivors. I'll always survive because I've got the right combination of wit, grit and bullshit."

© Don King

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
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Fri Dec-09-05 02:02 PM

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53. "I only saw it once so I can barely remember it"
In response to Reply # 51


          

I just thought it could have been a lot more than it was. It would have been better if it had focused on Jesus and not spent so much time with Denzel. I think the trials of a college athlete can be very interesting (I still want to write an hour long drama about it) but Spike didn't do it justice.

  

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BISON CLASS of 97
Member since Oct 19th 2004
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Sun Dec-11-05 10:40 AM

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84. "You missed the whole point of the movie"
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

The movie is about fathers and sons not fucking basketball or college athletics. It deals with what happens to the father and the son when the father leaves the house.

You had your own agenda and got mad when Spike didn't make the movie you want to make.


Why have Denzel in a movie and focus the movie on a non actor?

"I'm one of the world's great survivors. I'll always survive because I've got the right combination of wit, grit and bullshit."

© Don King

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
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Sun Dec-11-05 03:19 PM

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91. "No. I thought the movie was boring"
In response to Reply # 84


          

"You had your own agenda and got mad when Spike didn't make the movie you want to make."

The movie Spike made wasn't good IMO. I was happy he didn't make the movie I wanted because I can still do my idea. (Unlike the film version of Friday Night Lights which was always my dream and which was not fully realized IMO by Peter Berg) I've gone in a lot of time expecting one thing, not getting it but being pleasantly surprised with what I saw. He Got Game was disappointing on its own merits. My boredom became annoyance because I thought there was a better movie in there waiting to come out.

I love how if you don't like a Spike Lee movie, you suddenly get attacked for it. Like the man is bigger than opinions, everyone should love his shit.

  

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jigga
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Thu Dec-08-05 03:21 PM

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39. "RE: I liked it because..."
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

>The plot was refreshingly complex and original....

Agreed. Minus refreshingly.

>The acting was excellent...

Decent 4 the most part. No one stood out.

>Lee's visuals are always the shit...

Even the dog talking in Summer of Sam?

>the humor and drama meshed well...

At times

>I cared about the chracters...

I did as well

>the movie held my attention...

The women in it held mine

>it was thought provoking...sparked conversation afterwards...

Like what in the hell was Spike thinking?

>the music was good...

At times but way 2 many scenes had unecessary music in it that didnt fit well.

>it was funny...

Was it supposed 2 be?

>the cast was well chosen...

Spike always gets the right peeps 4 the right roles

>the narrative flowed smoothly...

No

>the surreal parts were imaginative and entertaining....
>it was socially relevant...

Ok

>I like Lee's style as a filmmaker....the biggest problem with
>criticism of Spike Lee films is that ppl continually choose to
>IGNORE what KIND of filmmaker Spike is.

Disagree

He is NOT a mainstream
>director....Do you understand that?

Anyone that watches his films understands that.

>Lee's shit is always going to be off-kilter, left of
>center....he does not make popcorn movies....you have John
>Singleton for that...

Nothings wrong w/ non popcorn movies. It's just nice when they focus on a certain topic & stick w/ it. Or if they have subplots they're somewhat related 2 the main topic.

>you accept David Lynch

I dont

, you accept Taratino, you accept The
>Coen Brothers,

you accept Jim Jarmusch,

He's starting 2 fall off

...shit, you even
>accept fucking Vincent Gallo....but Spike's shit is too out
>for y'all???....

You're generalizing this based on 1 movie? Bad idea.

  

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soulgyal
Member since Nov 09th 2003
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Thu Dec-15-05 03:45 AM

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135. "I think you're just dumb. Aint nothing flowed about that movie.."
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

he had one sex scene after another over and over and then cut back to the corporation story which didn't even take up the most screen time. That's not intercutting...I'm wondering what the fuck the script looks like because you never are quite sure of spaces of time in between shit happening.

The acting was terrible, but I blame that on the director as well. The script sucked. Why was I listening to speeches about ovulation?

The music was.....forgettable. I aint finna be humming a bar of that nonsense any time soon....cause I can't remember it.

The movie bitededed in so many more ways than one, and you know shit about filmmaking. You're so busy saying "you don't know about lesbians" this and that, and you're speaking about all these terms and things that this film clearly does not have to anyone who has studied it. I'm a novice and even *I* blatantly see what's fucked up.

<------------ There's only one way to find out...

http://www.liligi.com
http://lilcreepysmiley.blogspot.com/ (LAST UPDATED: AUGUST 9, 2009)

*****
<3 u Mom: Sep. 3, 1960 -May 1, 2006

  

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celery77
Member since Aug 04th 2005
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Thu Dec-08-05 01:46 AM

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12. "co-sign everyone above me -- that movie was garbage"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

And I love Spike Lee. And there were obviously some good ideas Spike had that I *wanted* to work in the film, but they obviously just didn't.

He can do better.

  

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kurlyswirl
Member since Jul 13th 2002
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Thu Dec-08-05 02:18 AM

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13. "HOT garbage, at that. n/m"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          


~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
<-------------- You need to be watching this show.

kurly's Super-Duper Awesome™ DVD Collection:
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I be Scrobblin': http://www.last.fm/user/TasteeTreat

  

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rhymesandammo
Member since Dec 07th 2004
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Thu Dec-08-05 02:36 AM

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14. "RE: Fuck that! I'm ready to fight alla y'all!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>Spike Lee's She Hate Me is the most undeservedly slandered
>filme since, uh...the LAST Spike Lee film....
>
>Give me any criticism you got and I'll show you where youre
>wrong....
>
>ANY!
>
>All the criticism I've read is absolute bull...and the valid
>ctriricism I have read is minute...
>
>Spike Lee is a fucking genius and his films keep getting
>better and better....

I've been saying this! Missed this in NYC because it played for less than 3 weeks. Caught it on DVD, very interesting film, and considering it's length, it's NEVER boring. I thought the sperm with Mackie's face was kinda overdone, but whatever, a small gripe in a good (3.5) film. Criminally overlooked, underrated, and hated on by people who never gave the film a fair shake from the start. Oh, and it's one of Blanchard's best scores, too.

Esteemed author of the celebrated, double-platinum post: "Drake - Wu-Tang Forever".

  

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ZooTown74
Member since May 29th 2002
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Thu Dec-08-05 09:32 AM

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15. "No, it rightfully deserved to be slaughtered."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Spike couldn't pick a story and stick to telling it, then couldn't even wrap up the two stories he tried to tell. Of course, his problems with ending movies isn't anything new... but either you do the Enron allegory or you do the lesbian sex farce. Either, or. Not both.
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scorpion
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23. "why cant you do both?"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

could you not follow thwe story....

lemme recap.

Jack works at big corrupt corporation.

Jack gets some heavy dirt on coproration.

Jack blows the whisle.

Jack gets not only fired, but ruined professionally and financially in retaliation.

Jack is destitute.

Jack's ex-fiancee is bisexual, something she found out for sure while engaged to Jack.

She wants to have a child, so does her female partner.

She wants Jack to impregnante them both.

She knows Jack is down and out...lessening his resistance to an offer sweetened by cash.

The desire of gay people to raise children has increased by leaps and bounds. Fatima(Jack's ex)knows a few lesbian women who would like to bear their own children.

They are all willing to pay Jack to impregnante them.

Fatima sets up shop.

What so hard to understand abt that?



The avatar: Aries Love

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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25. "ah... but your recap stopped short!"
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

if you it had ended with "Fatima sets up shop. complications ensue" that would have been fine by me.

but the way the whole corporate intrigue storyline just pops up again after being completely thrown to the wayside for what felt like 3 hours... i felt like i had been abruptly shunted into a different films.

and then you have characters who exist for no reason other than to make a point and speechify... John Turturro's character leaps to mind first. and let's not even get into the drug-addled casting choice that would put him in the role of Bellucci's dad.

and Bellucci's character was another strange digression. (did Spike receive French funding to finish this film? that's the only reason i can think of for La Bellucci and Jamel Debbouze being so awkwardlt crowbarred into the film)

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ZooTown74
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Thu Dec-08-05 01:11 PM

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28. "Sidebar: Turturro was a last minute replacement for Danny Aiello."
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

And I agree, it was a bad choice.
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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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29. "ah... that makes sense."
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

i mean, obviously Turturro in that role doesn't make sense under ANY circumstances, but i'm at least glad that the decision was driven by desperation rather than, ah... nepotism?

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scorpion
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31. "seriously...."
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

you expected it to just go away?

the Mafioso thing worked for me....becuase this is clearly a "Murphy's Law" kind of experience he's having...

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jigga
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41. "Jamel Debbouze"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

>if you it had ended with "Fatima sets up shop. complications
>ensue" that would have been fine by me.
>
>but the way the whole corporate intrigue storyline just pops
>up again after being completely thrown to the wayside for what
>felt like 3 hours... i felt like i had been abruptly shunted
>into a different films.
>
>and then you have characters who exist for no reason other
>than to make a point and speechify... John Turturro's
>character leaps to mind first. and let's not even get into the
>drug-addled casting choice that would put him in the role of
>Bellucci's dad.
>
>and Bellucci's character was another strange digression. (did
>Spike receive French funding to finish this film? that's the
>only reason i can think of for La Bellucci and Jamel Debbouze
>being so awkwardlt crowbarred into the film)

Bellucci is Italian. I'll see just about anything she's in & I'm sure I'm not the only one. That might've been the reason she was selected. Jamel Debbouze is credited as a producer.

  

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Frank Longo
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Thu Dec-08-05 03:42 PM

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42. "But she's been a star in many a French film."
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

And French people love her the same way you described.

I haven't seen this yet, and I like her, but it's possible for actors that I like to be crowbarred oddly into a film.

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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43. "she's Italian but she's more of a French star"
In response to Reply # 41
Thu Dec-08-05 03:52 PM by AFKAP_of_Darkness

  

          

i believe she lives in France, is (was?) married to another French star and she acts mostly in French films

Jamel Debbouze is credited as a producer? for real? damn... i wonder how that came about. i still think it was just to make the film more marketable in Europe because they realized that it wasn't gonna do shit in America.

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jigga
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44. "RE: she's Italian but she's more of a French star"
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

>i believe she lives in France, is (was?) married to another
>French star

Yeah Vincent Cassel. Lucky muthafucka.

and she acts mostly in French films

There about 2 star in another French movie together. Hopefully its better than Irrevesable.

>Jamel Debbouze is credited as a producer? for real?

So sez IMDB

damn... i
>wonder how that came about. i still think it was just to make
>the film more marketable in Europe because they realized that
>it wasn't gonna do shit in America.

Wouldnt doubt it.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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45. "there were rumors that Monica and Vincent had split"
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

guess they were just rumors since i haven't heard any follow-up, and they just had a kid anyway

what's the new movie they're doing together? a sequel to Secret Agents?

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jigga
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47. "*buys international plane ticket*"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

>what's the new movie they're doing together? a sequel to
>Secret Agents?

Hadnt heard about Secret Agents. Did you see it? Any good?

The new one they're doing is this http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0450843/

I've been trying 2 watch a trailer 4 that & the Agents one but no luck. They both link 2 French sites & I cant find a trailer anywhere.

And while I'm post jacking you (& anyone else) should check out the storyboards on her next project that she's doing w/ Clive Owen & Paul Giamatti. It looks & sounds insane.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0465602/

Storyboards

http://www.latinoreview.com/scriptreviews/shootemup/promoreel/index.html

  

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soulgyal
Member since Nov 09th 2003
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Thu Dec-15-05 03:51 AM

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138. "exactly n/m."
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

<------------ There's only one way to find out...

http://www.liligi.com
http://lilcreepysmiley.blogspot.com/ (LAST UPDATED: AUGUST 9, 2009)

*****
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ZooTown74
Member since May 29th 2002
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Thu Dec-08-05 01:09 PM

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27. "It's not about 'understanding' anything."
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

Either you make a movie that is an allegory for the business scandals of our time, or you make a fantasy fuck movie. What you don't do is mix metaphors, write ridiculous dialogue and scenes, include sidebars featuring guys dancing around in Presidential masks for three minutes, include a fantasy sequence involving John Henry's face on sperm, a half-ass trial sequence, then tie it all up with John settling down with the two women in the end and say, taa-daa. What?

She Hate Me was 2 hours and 18 minutes of a mess. Period, point blank. You can list all the scenes you like, but it was still a shitty, shitty movie, and a major letdown from Spike.
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scorpion
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48. "according to you..."
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

you "CANT" do these things in a film...

if thats the case then you shouldnt be watching Spike Lee films...

give me an example of a a good Spike Lee film, then...

The avatar: Aries Love

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ZooTown74
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Thu Dec-08-05 06:52 PM

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50. "Examples of good Spike Lee Joints (in no particular order)"
In response to Reply # 48
Thu Dec-08-05 07:10 PM by ZooTown74

  

          

Do The Right Thing
School Daze
Clockers
She's Gotta Have It
Mo Betta Blues
Malcolm X
Crooklyn
Get on the Bus
4 Little Girls (documentary)
25th Hour
A Huey P. Newton Story (stage production)
John Leguizamo's Freak (stage production)
The Original Kings of Comedy (documentary)
He Got Game

Any more questions?

btw, the other time Spike tried the "two-story" approach -- and failed -- was Jungle Fever. He should have learned his lesson then.

And you should really stop with the "y'all don't like 'She Hate Me' so you must hate Spike Lee" angle.
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scorpion
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68. "wrong....Spike has always had subplots...."
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

>Do The Right Thing....the happenings of a neighborhood on the hottest day of the year/racial tension

>School Daze...the class struggle betwen the Jigaboos and the Wannabes/the relationship between Dap and Rachel/the relationship between Julian and Jane/Half-Pints attempt to go over AND lose his vriginity/the SOiuth African divestment issue

>Clockers...saw this film once...dont remember much, didnt like it...

>She's Gotta Have It

>Mo Betta Blues...the relationship between Bleek and his women/the sruggle btween Bleek and Shadoe/the struggle with club management/Giant being a liabililty to Bleek and the band/Bleek hiding behind music as a way to dodge his emotional shortcomings...

>Malcolm X....Malcolm rise in the crime world/relationship between Malcolm and Archie/Malcolm's awakening/Malcolm rise to prominence/Malcolm betrayal/Malcolm's second Awakening/Malcolm's assassination

>Crooklyn....ssam as Clockers

>Get on the Bus....too many to get into here...

>25th Hour....last day of freedom/who set Monty up?/Naturelle and Monty/Monty and his friends/Hoffman and Paquin/NYC after 911?/where does Monty go from here?

I could do the rest of the list but come on, man...really...

  

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ZooTown74
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Fri Dec-09-05 11:40 PM

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71. "And you're still off. PLOT is not the same as STORY."
In response to Reply # 68
Fri Dec-09-05 11:45 PM by ZooTown74

  

          

>>Do The Right Thing....the happenings of a neighborhood on
>the hottest day of the year/racial tension

That was ONE story with many characters. There is a difference.

>>School Daze...the class struggle betwen the Jigaboos and the
>Wannabes/the relationship between Dap and Rachel/the
>relationship between Julian and Jane/Half-Pints attempt to go
>over AND lose his vriginity/the SOiuth African divestment
>issue

Again, ONE story with many characters.


>>Clockers...saw this film once...dont remember much, didnt
>like it...

Of course not. That's one of his best movies. Adapted from a novel, by the way, which was ONE story with many characters.

>>She's Gotta Have It

I'll get this one. It's about an African-American woman's desire to live her life as she pleases and express herself sexually. Again, ONE story with several characters, made up of several events, which add up to make THAT PARTICULAR story.

>>Mo Betta Blues...the relationship between Bleek and his
>women/the sruggle btween Bleek and Shadoe/the struggle with
>club management/Giant being a liabililty to Bleek and the
>band/Bleek hiding behind music as a way to dodge his emotional
>shortcomings...

Again, ONE story. There wasn't a subplot about a conspiracy to snuff jazz musicians. There wasn't a sidebar about the evil nature of the music business. It was ONE story about a jazz musician. ONE story.


>>Malcolm X....Malcolm rise in the crime world/relationship
>between Malcolm and Archie/Malcolm's awakening/Malcolm rise to
>prominence/Malcolm betrayal/Malcolm's second
>Awakening/Malcolm's assassination

Again, ONE story. What you're listing is many EVENTS, the PLOT of which makes ONE STORY.

>>Crooklyn....ssam as Clockers

ONE story about the only girl in a family.


>>Get on the Bus....too many to get into here...

Again, the STORY was about these men and their journey to the Million Man March. Many characters, many issues, but ONE story.

>>25th Hour....last day of freedom/who set Monty up?/Naturelle
>and Monty/Monty and his friends/Hoffman and Paquin/NYC after
>911?/where does Monty go from here?

All PLOT, which is different than STORY.

Now, as for the two you conveniently ignored:

Jungle Fever

A story about a successful black man who has an affair with a white woman. And also the story of how he deals with a crackhead brother. See? Those are two different stories.

FAILURE.


She Hate Me

A story about a whistleblower who loses his job and resorts to impregnating lesbians. Again, two different stories. Not two different PLOTS, two different stories. Get it?

FAILURE.

The STORIES in She Hate Me were weak. Nothing you can write, or cite, is going to change anyone's mind here. You might as well throw in the towel.
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scorpion
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76. "by your defnition...."
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

She Hate Me has only one plot.

Make up your mind....

The avatar: Aries Love

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
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Sun Dec-11-05 09:58 PM

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100. "I have to admit"
In response to Reply # 76


          

I didn't like She Hate Me but I didn't even understand that plot/story post.

  

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ZooTown74
Member since May 29th 2002
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Mon Dec-12-05 12:39 AM

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101. "It's not that hard to understand."
In response to Reply # 100
Mon Dec-12-05 12:41 AM by ZooTown74

  

          

It really isn't.

Plot and Story are two different things. It's not a foreign language, guys.
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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
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Mon Dec-12-05 01:28 AM

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102. "I get your point but..."
In response to Reply # 101


          

Many people consider plot and story synonymous so it becomes confusing. While some say Subplot, others say B-Story. There's no real single defining language for film.

The way I see it, She Hate Me has a single narrative thread: A young man struggling to survive in the world while keeping his moral code. This is the plot of the movie. Can Jack do the right thing?

The problem wasn't that this thread diverged into multiple stories, the problem (for me) was that they weren't connected and nothing in one story was really dependant on the outcome of the other. However, people who like the film don't care about that. They are just along for the ride and don't really care if the story from Act 1 disappears for most of Act 2, only to reappear in Act 3 even though its reappearance is not motivated by anything that happened in Act 2. They are following the story/plot/thread of will Jack do the right thing? or Can Jack accept the decisions he's made? There is one story: this guy's life is crazy, what's going to happen next?

If you don't find his life compelling (as I didn't) then this movie sucks because then there is no driving force. (A Thin Red Line is also like this: if you don't get into the different stories, there's nothing really to keep you tuned in. I love that film but again can see why people would disagree) I would still say that She Hate Me is a poorly conceived film however I can't tell people that it doesn't work because film is completely subjective.







  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
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Thu Dec-08-05 01:49 PM

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34. "What you just explained was a first act"
In response to Reply # 23


          

people's problem was that it was two movies awardly crammed into one. What you just wrote there is the first act setting up a movie about a guy whose life falls apart but he then decides to make money impregnating women. We have the inciting action, and he gets into the main action of the movie (knicking up lesbians) from which the hijinks/complications ensue.

But in She Hate Me, that was like half of the film. And then the second half went in a completely different direction. The movie didn't work for me and was poorly conceived (no pun intended). I didn't find it compelling at all which made the mish-mashed plot lines all the more tedious.

  

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jigga
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40. "?"
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

Fatima(Jack's ex)knows a few lesbian women
>who would like to bear their own children.

A few? She had a damn caravan. & they all had the cash. Pretty unrealistic.

  

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scorpion
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92. "20 lesbians in a big city with cash...."
In response to Reply # 40
Sun Dec-11-05 03:46 PM by scorpion

  

          

not possible, huh?

The avatar: Aries Love

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Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

  

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jigga
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Mon Dec-12-05 05:03 PM

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105. "RE: 20 lesbians in a big city with cash...."
In response to Reply # 92


  

          

>not possible, huh?

All willing 2 fuck & have a baby w/ the same guy? Sure.

  

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scorpion
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Thu Dec-08-05 12:36 PM

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17. "Let the ass whoopings BEGIN!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

  

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gmltheone
Member since Jun 11th 2003
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Thu Dec-08-05 01:40 PM

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32. "What if"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

That piece of shit had been directed by somebody other spike lee? Would you still defend it?


-------------
Sig Semper Tyrannus

  

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scorpion
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Fri Dec-09-05 03:47 PM

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61. "if the only difference was the director credit"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

hell yea....

but if someone else actually directed the film, then it would be different and Id have to see te result to give you a real answer...

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Thu Dec-08-05 04:11 PM

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46. "the explanation for the title of the movie is also annoying"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i mean, we got to sit through that whole pointless story about the fucking XFL??? like anybody even remembers what the fuck the XFL was!

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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
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Fri Dec-09-05 03:12 PM

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55. "***Rocks Rod Smart throwback sewn from the fabirc of hate***"
In response to Reply # 46
Fri Dec-09-05 03:12 PM by mrhood75

  

          

Las Vegas Outlaws in this bee-otch!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, that movie sucked. As did the XFL. Coincedence?

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scorpion
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Fri Dec-09-05 10:16 AM

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52. "I love it...we bout to get down....n/m"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

  

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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
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Fri Dec-09-05 03:39 PM

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58. "***pushes stainless-steel refridgerator off the top of a building***"
In response to Reply # 52


  

          

***watches it land on Scropion. Walks away contented.***

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www.albumism.com

Checkin' Our Style, Return To Zero:

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scorpion
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88. "spell my name right before you start internet thuggin'..."
In response to Reply # 58


  

          


The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

  

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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
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Sun Dec-11-05 04:01 PM

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95. "Joke much?"
In response to Reply # 88


  

          

Though arguing that "She Hate Me" is a gigantic donkey turd is worth dying, worth killing, worth dying, worth killing, worth dying, worth killing...

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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56. "to be honest, i don't even BELIEVE anybody who claims to like this film."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Spike Lee fandom can be a powerful force, leading its followers to accept and praise a lot of weird stuff that they would have dissed the crap out of had it come from any other director

(not that that's particularly different from the fans of just about any other director, of course... but even Woody Allen fans draw the line SOMEwhere)

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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scorpion
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57. "its actually the inverse....."
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

you guys rip everyhting Spike does down to the glasses he wears but when other directors do THE EXACT SAME SHIT, you guys fall to your knees in praise....

all this bitching about the animated sperm...but yet I dont hear shit about the anime in Kill Bill..

let's not even get into this realism crap(actually, let's...)you mean to tell me that its COMPLETELY inconceivable that 20 lesbians would have $10,000 to spend and were willing to be impregnated naturally by a man with good genes in order to fulfill their desire to have a child?

but even so, this is a movie, a film....its not a damn documentary...

g'head with that...

I'll save your stereotyping of lesbians for later....

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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60. "you (and i mean *you*, not Spike fans in general) always say that!"
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

that other directors (specifically QT) do exactly what Spike does... but i've never seen Qt come with any sloppy storytelling like Spike does... whatever Tarantino's flaws may be - and there are quite a few of them - the inability to write a tight script isn't one of them

and you can't compare the anime sequence in Kill Bill to the animated sperm... those were two completely different contexts and created completely different effects (i've never complained about the animated sperm btw, even though i did find it somewhat silly)

the rich lesbians thing... i DO have something of an issue about that, but it's never something i really thought about before cats on this board started talking about it. i'm more interested in why they seemed so excited about heterosexual intercourse with black men

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scorpion
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62. "WHERE is this excitement?????"
In response to Reply # 60


  

          

I damn sure didnt see it...I saw fear, uncertainty, doubt, and disdain...

we are assuming incorrectly that all of these lesbian have never had sex with a man, which is clealry no the case of the Kerry Washington, Bai Ling, Paula Jai Parker and Monica Belluci characters....

and the whole "training section of Kill Bill 2......*SMH*

the watch story in Pulp Fiction....entertaining but also unecessary....

and as enjoyable as Pulp Fiction was it was horribly disjointed...

as was Jackie Brown....that had enough shit for a few movies as well....as do any of QT's shits...

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Fri Dec-09-05 04:09 PM

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63. "maybe 'excitement' was the wrong word"
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

but they still seemed a bit too much into it (apart from maybe Sarita Choudhoury's character)... even that scene where he has to disrobe so they can look at his dick... it's so unnecessary. why are they so interested in looking at his penis rather than at, say, his medical records (maybe they looked at that too... been a while since i watched it)

but that scene was supposed to be some sort of sexual challenge... but they're not supposed to be interested in *sex* with him, are they?

i know lots of lesbians have had sex with men before... and lots of them didn't like it as much as these chicks seemed to (some of them may actually like dick, sure... but why did ALL of them have to?)

>and the whole "training section of Kill Bill 2......*SMH*

what's wrong with that sequence?

well, if anything is wrong with it, it's the fact that it's homage. QT likes to (mis)quote the old adage that "bad artists do homage while great artists steal"... QT has stolen quite well in a lot of previous scenes but here he was doing homage.

but then again, the entire film was a homage so if you've gotten to that point in the movie, you must have already come to terms with that

>the watch story in Pulp Fiction....entertaining but also
>unecessary....

i wouldn't say it was unnecessary... it was definitely indulgent. but then again, that is the flavor of the film.

did we NEED the whole Christopher Walken speech in order to set up the fact that this watch means a lot to Butch? no. that could have been established in like 2 seconds.

but Pulp Fiction is not necessarily a film that is based on plot... it's character-driven, and the point of that scene was to let this Christopher Walken character ramble on about sticking a watch up his ass.

>and as enjoyable as Pulp Fiction was it was horribly
>disjointed...

how? i don't see any disjointedness at all.

you could make a case with Kill Bill, but Pulp was pretty fluid... that's part of its appeal for most people, the fact that despite the fractured nature of the narrative, by the end all the ends tie together

>as was Jackie Brown....that had enough shit for a few movies
>as well....as do any of QT's shits...

umm... Jackie Brown. that film had a few problems but i'm not sure if disjointedness was necessarily one of them. i think the issue was that the characters were not as strong (or at least, as idiosyncratic) as some of QT's other films and he's left to let the plot push things forward... and plot is not necessarily something he's good with. actually, i'm almost certain that he's just not *interested* in plot.

_____________________

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Calico
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64. "seriously tho"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

the women are the only reason to LOVE that movie...dania ramirez alone...jim brown, q-tip, and the guy who was duke's brother were all cool to...but the movie was ...bad...but i'd watch again...for dania...

i don't even think spike knew what he really wanted the movie to be, or be about....it's surely didn't come thru clearly onscreen..it's very shock and awe-ish...

"yes, sometimes my rhymes are sexist, but you lovely bitches and hos should know i'm tryin to correct it"- hiphopopotamus

  

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scorpion
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Fri Dec-09-05 10:40 PM

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65. "what wasnt clear to you?"
In response to Reply # 64


  

          


The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

  

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Calico
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Fri Dec-09-05 11:06 PM

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70. "what was the movie supposed to be about?"
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

seriously...i think spike got lost about that part during the course of the movie...

"yes, sometimes my rhymes are sexist, but you lovely bitches and hos should know i'm tryin to correct it"- hiphopopotamus

  

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rorschach
Member since Nov 10th 2004
7723 posts
Sat Dec-10-05 03:17 AM

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73. "It's two decent movies in one."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

The whistleblower stuff should've been separated from the sex comedy stuff.

They sort of fit together but not really well.

I do agree with you that it gets undeserved criticism, though. I enjoyed it. Some of these cats act like they can't recognize a bad Spike joint when they see it (Girl 6, SOS).

Spike only puts so much shit into his movies b/c he doesn't know what kind of hell he'll have to go through to get another movie off the ground.

  

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bignick
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74. "RE: It's two decent movies in one."
In response to Reply # 73


  

          


>Spike only puts so much shit into his movies b/c he doesn't
>know what kind of hell he'll have to go through to get another
>movie off the ground.

that's total bullshit. Spike said himself on the podcast that he's been at it for 20 years and he's been lucky enough to make a movie a year during that time. he knows his projects aren't gonna make a ton of cash so he offsets that by coming in on time and under budget. except of course for Malcolm X.

you'll have to come up with a better excuse than that.

  

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scorpion
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77. "you still have to come up with valid criticism...."
In response to Reply # 74


  

          

of this film...

just saying "it sucked" repeatedly doesnt enlighten me to the flaws in the this film....

I think once timw has elapsed and the next Spike Lee movie is out to hate on, then people will feel differently about this film....like they did with Bamboozled....

When Bamboozled came out, folks decried like it was a crime in cinema, now that Laffy Taffy is one of the most popular songs in the country...people are getting a clearer vision of what the film was saying...

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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78. "i said Bamboozled was terrible then, and i still say it now"
In response to Reply # 77


  

          

and "Laffy Taffy," Ying Yang Twins, L'il Jon, Field Mob... none of that stuff changes the fact that it was a bad film

sure, the ideas it was trying to convey were valid, and are probably more relevant today then they've ever been

but it's still a BAD FILM

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BISON CLASS of 97
Member since Oct 19th 2004
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Sun Dec-11-05 10:43 AM

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85. "Bamboozled is a GREAT movie"
In response to Reply # 78


  

          

You just hate Spike

"I'm one of the world's great survivors. I'll always survive because I've got the right combination of wit, grit and bullshit."

© Don King

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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86. "i'm tired of people falling back on the 'you hate Spike' retort"
In response to Reply # 85
Sun Dec-11-05 12:07 PM by AFKAP_of_Darkness

  

          

i actually like Spike a lot. for a long time he was my favorite filmmaker, barring none. but i'm sorry... i cannot give him a pass for making bad films.

regardless of how much i admire Spike for the movies he made in the 1980s and part of the 90s or how important i think he is for giving a prominent voice to Black filmmakers for the first time in film history (no, blaxploitation doesn't count), the fact is that he has some serious flaws as a filmmaker. and some of his films suffer from these flaws more than others.

i can't think of ANY criterion by which i can call Bamboozled a good film - and mind you, i found ways to like Girl 6! in fact, Spike's name is the only reason that i was able to rationalize sitting through it to end... if the beginning credit had read "Directed by Random Film Student" rather than "A Spike Lee Joint" i woulda still thought it was just as bad... i probably wouldn't have made it all the way through, though.

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ZooTown74
Member since May 29th 2002
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Sun Dec-11-05 01:37 PM

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89. "^^^ This post is officially over."
In response to Reply # 86


  

          

These 'you better love Spike's movies or it means you hate black people' cats are off their rocker. It's a lame, ignorant argument that holds zero weight in my book.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
i
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Premiere
Member since Sep 02nd 2005
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Fri Dec-23-05 04:32 AM

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145. "Let's not throw Field Mob in with that crowd, please"
In response to Reply # 78


  

          

.

  

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bignick
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81. "RE: you still have to come up with valid criticism...."
In response to Reply # 77
Sun Dec-11-05 05:14 AM by bignick

  

          

>of this film...
>
>just saying "it sucked" repeatedly doesnt enlighten me to the
>flaws in the this film....

i already did that. and it's not my job to enlighten you to the flaws of the film.

it's a complete and total misfire. every thing that is supposed to be good about movies...it's not.

  

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ne_atl
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Sun Dec-11-05 09:34 AM

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83. "so why reply if you're not going to enlighten"
In response to Reply # 81


  

          




>
>i already did that. and it's not my job to enlighten you to
>the flaws of the film.

isn't that what he's been asking all of you? The point of the post was for you guys to enlighten him....am I wrong here?

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bignick
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90. "RE: so why reply if you're not going to enlighten"
In response to Reply # 83


  

          


>>i already did that. and it's not my job to enlighten you to
>>the flaws of the film.
>
>isn't that what he's been asking all of you? The point of the
>post was for you guys to enlighten him....am I wrong here?

so, we have to follow this guy's rules on the message board now? besides,quite a few people in this post have describe why the movie sucks. he just refuses to hear it.

  

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scorpion
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93. "not about other people..."
In response to Reply # 90


  

          

but YOU expended the energy to come in here and bitch about the movie...

so when I reply to you, Im talking to YOU not the other 6 people in this thread....

so if you gonna criticize the movie then do some with a clear and viable argument...

you might have a point and I might agree with you...

for the record, I dont think the film was perfect....it had flaws...but most films do...

overall, I enjoyed it and I can state explicity why I feel that way...

but to come in here and just say "itsuckeditsuckeditsuckeditsucked" but when asked for YOUR opinion ony why it sucked, you balk and make excuses....that's wack, son...

if its not worth discussing to you, then be out, dont discuss the shit if it aint worth discussing....

the world will continue to spin to its axis...

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

  

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bignick
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Sun Dec-11-05 04:16 PM

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96. "RE: not about other people..."
In response to Reply # 93
Sun Dec-11-05 04:17 PM by bignick

  

          

>but YOU expended the energy to come in here and bitch about
>the movie...
>
>so when I reply to you, Im talking to YOU not the other 6
>people in this thread....
>
>so if you gonna criticize the movie then do some with a clear
>and viable argument...

and like i said, i already did that. i'm not gonna go through the script line for line and point out all the examples of bad writing to you.
besides, if you liked the movie, you probably wouldn't get it anyway.

  

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PlanetInfinite
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Sun Dec-11-05 12:03 AM

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80. "are you really going to argue a fucking opinion?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

idiot.

---------------------
do this don't do that.
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scorpion
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87. "I suggest ..."
In response to Reply # 80
Sun Dec-11-05 11:55 AM by scorpion

  

          

you go back to :)~'n over on GD,instead of telling me what the fuck I should and should'nt be doing wit my computer....

you dont see me running in your posts telling you how pathethic you look swingin off bitches nuts in your posts, do you?

motherfucker, do you....don't worry about what the fuck I'm doin'...

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
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Mon Dec-12-05 02:33 PM

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103. "ORBIT_ESTABLISHED"
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Dec-12-05 02:36 PM by Orbit_Established

  

          

Yall made me post on my vacation. I'm type mad, god.


Let Orbit 'splain the 'She Hate Me' hate:

You see, the problem with 'SHM' lays in an awkward double standard we all carry in regards to black directors and black films.

You see, we tend not to like when black filmmakers go "outside the box" and create work that is out of the norm, unconventional, or obtuse.

This is retarded because we routinely pardon, if not outright laud, similar work from white filmakers, all the time.

That is why Spike Lee's most respected works, all fabulous films, are all films that hit their issues SQUARELY on the nose -- 'Do The Right Thing', 'Malcom X' and a host of others. Spike Lee started to suffer with the critics the second his films started to push the envelope, the second he tried to experiment a little bit, which is a natural progression for any artist.

Among his most inconsistently and poorly reviewed films are:

'Get on the Bus' -- A film that is a metaphor for black manhood, where every instrument and individual is symbollic in some fashion. This was relatively unprecedented for black filmmakers and especially for Spike Lee, and so critics pasted it. This is despite the fact that the film is well...fucking brilliant.

'Summer of Sam' - In my top 5 Spike Lee joints ever. Absolutely brilliant. Problem was, white people and their black friends don't like the idea of Spike Lee, Mr."Race movie director" actually directing a movie where race is not the centerpiece of the film....it bugged them.

Hating ass negroes pasted 'Summer of Sam' with:

"who he think he is"

"stick to what you do best"

"What the hell is Spike doing trying to direct horror?"

And others in this brand of lame-o criticisms, criticisms that are completely unfair, given that no one says anything similar when Spielberg makes his periodic piles of shit(see:Minority Report, AI, The Flinstones...many others).

When Spielberg and company make bad films...we simply say:
"Steven, you made a bad film."

When Spike makes a film that we don't like, not only do we say:
"Spike, you made a bad film"

We say:
"Spike...what are you trying to do?....Spike has lost it....."

This explains the 'Bamboozled' debacle.

Though 'Bamboozled' attacked its race issues head on, it did so in a decidely unconvential matter...awkward plot, awkward development and storyline. I dug it, thought it was cool and profound in its own way.

White people, their friends, and toms said:

"who does Spike think he is?"

"That was too offbeat for me"


This again, despite the fact that we not only pardon, but outright laud and dickride Jim Jaramusch, Richard Linklater(who I like), Quentin Tarantino, the cat who directs those trainwreck bad movies that all y'all love like 'Happiness' and 'Palindromes(both of those movies fucking suck, thank you very much). '

Take Jaramusch and a film like...'Ghost Dog'. I thought it was dope. Its sort of cultish. Lots of people, many of them white, dug it. Problem is, if Spike Lee directed 'Ghost Dog', put out the exact same film, the same people who liked it would say:

"What was Spike's point?"

"What was Spike trying to do?"

"Spike over-stepped his boundaries with this one"


Let *ANY* black filmmaker make a film like...say...'Life Aquatic'. We'd bitch and moan about how the film was too offbeat and esoteric.


Let the Hughes Brothers have done 'A History of Violence'....it would have gotten none of the praise. It would been called, at best a "brave, but misguided attempt by the Hughes Brothers" instead of a film generating Oscar buzz(strange because it fucking sucks and was really weird, in a non cool way).


This is what 'She Hate Me' suffers from. The wrong filmmaker made it.

Hell, take a film like....'Black and White'. You remember...film "about" race...had a wild cast...Brooke Shields, Robert Downey Jr, Mike Tyson, Raekwon, Claudia Shiffer, Ben Stiller...mad people.

Remember that?

Directed by a white director(I 4get his name, but who cares). Had all sorts of sexually lurid scenes with a scattered, uncoventional sequence of events. Very racy.

My problem with 'Black and White' was that well...it really wasn't very good.

I saw it back in like 2000 when it came out at the insistence of several reviews I read that lauded it for being "radiant" and "brave" and "profound" and all sorts of dumb shit like that.

I saw it, and saw a bad Spike Lee ripoff, that had shock scenes in it just for the sake of generating shock value, not for the sake of truly communicating anything honestly interesting or telling about race.

I see 'She Hate Me' as at least as good, if not far, far, far, far, far, far, better than 'Black and White'. 'Black and White' was universally praised. 'She Hate Me' is universally shat on.

The race of the directors is the only difference.

'She Hate Me' is unconventional. 'SHM' is obtuse. 'SHM' is different. Not standard. unusual plotline. Ridden with social commentaries and messages. Sexaully suggestive.

And I dug the hell out of it, along with 3 or 4 other people on earth.


I don't quite see a solution to the problem I'm pointing out, as long as white people don't like black people. As long as those white people have a following of black people who tries to act like them(like a lot of negro film critics, and guys with Okayplayer.com accounts), this will continue.

Its a damn shame really, because black fillmakers and writers should be able to be different and obtuse just like white filmmakers. I fear they'll never get the chance.

Mang.


----------------------------

O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.

"Any fighter that I face, I say prayers for them every night and that he and I live to fight another day."

(C) Floyd Mayweather Jr.

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
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Mon Dec-12-05 02:48 PM

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104. "James Toback"
In response to Reply # 103
Mon Dec-12-05 02:58 PM by SoulHonky

          

Black and White got destroyed in the reviews. All of the good reviews were either paid players like 60 second film review or people hyping the film before they saw it. I don't really remember seeing many good reviews for that film.

It's actually a great comparison for She Hate Me. People who want to like it will like it. Most people won't.

On rotten tomatoes, SHM was 4 out of ten, Black and White was 4.5 (and Ebert loved both).

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
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Tue Dec-13-05 12:10 AM

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111. "Thanks for ignoring all my other arguments VOL I."
In response to Reply # 104


  

          


And 'Black and White' does have higher review scores across the board. The fact that they are marginally higher means little. They are higher.

And that is almost besides the point, because on *these* boards, I don't know of a more hated film released in the last year than 'She Hate Me'. In fact....that isn't totally true. Other films have been hated as much, but the efforts you all go through to bad mouth this film are without equal.....that is why the poster made this post...he/she remembers all the 'SHM' posts quite vividly.

>Black and White got destroyed in the reviews. All of the
>good reviews were either paid players like 60 second film
>review or people hyping the film before they saw it. I don't
>really remember seeing many good reviews for that film.
>
>It's actually a great comparison for She Hate Me. People who
>want to like it will like it. Most people won't.
>
>On rotten tomatoes, SHM was 4 out of ten, Black and White was
>4.5 (and Ebert loved both).
>


----------------------------

O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.

"Any fighter that I face, I say prayers for them every night and that he and I live to fight another day."

(C) Floyd Mayweather Jr.

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
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Tue Dec-13-05 12:33 AM

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113. "You're welcome Vol. 1"
In response to Reply # 111


          

1) "You see, the problem with 'SHM' lays in an awkward double standard we all carry in regards to black directors and black films. You see, we tend not to like when black filmmakers go "outside the box" and create work that is out of the norm, unconventional, or obtuse. This is retarded because we routinely pardon, if not outright laud, similar work from white filmakers, all the time."

I don't disagree so I don't really need to address this. White directors get more of a pass than black directors although I personally call people on experimental shit that doesn't work whether it is Gerry or She Hate Me (not that Van Sant is as good as Spike).

2) "'Get on the Bus' -- A film that is a metaphor for black manhood, where every instrument and individual is symbollic in some fashion. This was relatively unprecedented for black filmmakers and especially for Spike Lee, and so critics pasted it. This is despite the fact that the film is well...fucking brilliant."

I love this film and think it should be shown in schools to spark discussion. I can see people's flaws with it as a movie but I think it's really more than that. I see the same thing with Thin Red Line. I wouldn't recommend that to everyone but I absolutely love it. But it's not a typical movie and people are going to fault it for that (whether that's right or wrong is a different discussion altogether)

3) "'Summer of Sam' - In my top 5 Spike Lee joints ever. Absolutely brilliant. Problem was, white people and their black friends don't like the idea of Spike Lee, Mr."Race movie director" actually directing a movie where race is not the centerpiece of the film....it bugged them."

I didn't like this film. I never got into it but the issue of race not being involved isn't an issue IMO because 25th Hour is great IMO and doesn't hit on race at all.

4) "that no one says anything similar when Spielberg makes his periodic piles of shit(see:Minority Report, AI, The Flinstones...many others."

I think a lot of people have been down on Spielberg's latest stuff. Just check out the War of the Worlds post.

5) "When Spielberg and company make bad films...we simply say:
"Steven, you made a bad film."

When Spike makes a film that we don't like, not only do we say:
"Spike, you made a bad film"

We say:
"Spike...what are you trying to do?....Spike has lost it....."

I don't like when Spike or Spielburg are too heavily involved with their scripts anymore. Spike loses focus on his plot and Stevie is soft. The fact that Spielberg is always ending his shit with ridiculous happy endings is beyond old. And I'm also tired of "GIVE ME AN OSCAR ALREADY" Scorcese as well so I'm the wrong guy to pin this on. Still, I concede that others might do what you said so I left this alone. No need for me to address the point since it wasn't directed at me.

6) >This explains the 'Bamboozled' debacle.

Never saw it so I can't comment.

7) "This is what 'She Hate Me' suffers from. The wrong filmmaker made it. Hell, take a film like....'Black and White'."

Here's my issue. Are you talking about critics, people here, or the black movie-going audience. Because people here don't like Black and White. A few idiot critics did. You said Black and White was "universally praised" which is not close to being true. Also, I think it does a disservice to SHM to compare it. Black and White was garbage. SHM was experimental and tried to follow a couple of seemingly separate stories and combine them. I can admit Spike's ambition with SHM even though I think he failed completely. Toback just made a dumb fucking movie.


8) "I don't quite see a solution to the problem I'm pointing out, as long as white people don't like black people."

Again, you started pointing the finger at the people on this board, so who are you addressing? Is the issue white people not liking black people or the black audience being too limiting on their directors? Is the problem the people on this board or the filmgoers of America? This discussion goes far beyond SHM and I don't see it being argued well in this thread so I avoided even bringing it up.

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
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Tue Dec-13-05 12:37 AM

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114. "Cool and fair, Vol I."
In response to Reply # 113


  

          


But you still had to be called out before you responded appropriately.

True story.

I'll reply to all that later.


----------------------------

O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.

"Any fighter that I face, I say prayers for them every night and that he and I live to fight another day."

(C) Floyd Mayweather Jr.

  

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40thStreetBlack
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Mon Dec-12-05 06:39 PM

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106. "eponymously titled posts are > obnoxious than speaking in the 3rd person"
In response to Reply # 103


  

          


<----- Long Live The King

  

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ZooTown74
Member since May 29th 2002
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Mon Dec-12-05 08:11 PM

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107. "No, Black and White was trash, too."
In response to Reply # 103
Mon Dec-12-05 08:13 PM by ZooTown74

  

          

I knew that as soon as I saw Raekwon (if I remember) and crew finger-fucking Chyna Phillips in the woods during the opening credits.

And you know us black folk are harder on our creatives than anyone else, especially if they've been coming with the good stuff for almost 20 years. What Spike *tried* to do and what he actually did in She Hate Me are two entirely different things. The concept was intriguing, but for whatever reason, the execution was problematic, and ultimately failed, imo. And I have no qualms about saying that. Doesn't mean I hate Spike, or black people. I just didn't dig what he was trying to do this time out. He'll get 'em next time.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
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Tue Dec-13-05 12:13 AM

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112. "Thanks for ignoring all my other arguments VOL II"
In response to Reply # 107


  

          

>I knew that as soon as I saw Raekwon (if I remember) and crew
>finger-fucking Chyna Phillips in the woods during the opening
>credits.

No, it wasn't Raekwon. Sort of tips me off to how seriously I should take your opinion here. Thanks for tipping us off to not seeing the movie. One of your friends saw it, probably one of your white friends, who mistook the actual person you are talking about for Raekwon, ran back to you and said:

"Hey Jamal. That film was like...sooooo laaayme. Reeekwown the Sheff was like totallly finger fucking Chyna Phillips in the woods."


>And you know us black folk are harder on our creatives than
>anyone else, especially if they've been coming with the good
>stuff for almost 20 years. What Spike *tried* to do and what
>he actually did in She Hate Me are two entirely different
>things. The concept was intriguing, but for whatever reason,
>the execution was problematic, and ultimately failed, imo.
>And I have no qualms about saying that. Doesn't mean I hate
>Spike, or black people. I just didn't dig what he was trying
>to do this time out. He'll get 'em next time.
>___________________________________________________________________________________________

----------------------------

O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.

"Any fighter that I face, I say prayers for them every night and that he and I live to fight another day."

(C) Floyd Mayweather Jr.

  

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ZooTown74
Member since May 29th 2002
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Tue Dec-13-05 04:52 AM

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117. "That's right, my name is Jamal, and I never seent the movie."
In response to Reply # 112


  

          

Now kindly slap yourself for typing that dumb shit.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
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on channel 6

  

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scorpion
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Mon Dec-12-05 10:49 PM

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108. "BOOM!!! There it is....."
In response to Reply # 103


  

          

*dap*

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Mon Dec-12-05 11:46 PM

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109. "you're copping pleas, scorp"
In response to Reply # 108


  

          

you started out arguing that She Hate Me was a work of genius, but now you're content to settle for saying that it's at least as good as mediocre to bad films by white filmmakers?

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52926 posts
Tue Dec-13-05 12:05 AM

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110. "**SMACK** **SMACK** **SMACK**"
In response to Reply # 109
Tue Dec-13-05 12:07 AM by Orbit_Established

  

          

Know your place, bitch.

**SMACK**

He/she cosigned my POST, you fucking dickhead. Cosign suggests that he/she agrees with my *overall* argument -- that the 'She Hate Me' hatred is unwarranted and is the product of a double standard.

And let's actually get into what I said:

"I see 'She Hate Me' as at least as good, if not far, far, far, far, far, far, better than 'Black and White'."

I presented TWO opinions, and it is the latter that is actually *my personal* opinion. I presented the former one to broaden the proposition, so that you dickheads could't railroad the argument into a "SHM vs. Black and White" post, which is what you usually do when you can't actually debate any of my *overall* points.

This is why two of four replies to my post are about 'Black and White' and not the other points I made -- that is the only point anyone of you can actually even come close to refuting. My *overall* argument is actually 100% correct. The cosigner understands that. You don't.

And you still lawst, by the way:

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=1908199


>you started out arguing that She Hate Me was a work of
>genius, but now you're content to settle for saying that it's
>at least as good as mediocre to bad films by white
>filmmakers?



----------------------------

O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.

"Any fighter that I face, I say prayers for them every night and that he and I live to fight another day."

(C) Floyd Mayweather Jr.

  

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scorpion
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Tue Dec-13-05 01:42 AM

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115. "Sampson Simpson!!! I stick by my story!!!"
In response to Reply # 109


  

          

what Im saying and what he's saying is what I've been saying from jump...

Spike gets held to an impossible standard that other directors dont get held to....

He makes dope films.

Period.

But he chooses to color outside the lines and instead of allowing your minds to go with him, you refuse and dog the fuck outta him...

He's not a bad filmmaker.

Jesse Dylan is shitty director.

not Spike...

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
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Tue Dec-13-05 02:06 AM

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116. "Were people saying that?"
In response to Reply # 115


          

I never said Spike was a bad filmmaker, I said that I thought She Hate Me was a bad movie.

I can appreciate the reach Spike was trying to make but I don't think he succeeded. He isn't a bad filmmaker because of it. He's a good filmmaker who made a bad film.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Dec-13-05 05:18 AM

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118. "nah, scorp... you're better off just defending the virtue of *this* film"
In response to Reply # 115
Tue Dec-13-05 05:46 AM by AFKAP_of_Darkness

  

          

talking about a general standard Spike may or may not be held to changes the focus of the argument too much...

either you argue unconditionally that She Hate Me is an excellent film

or

you argue that it really isn't *that* great, but that we would have cut the film a break if it had been made by a white director

but i'm not quite sure you can go both ways at the same time

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scorpion
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Tue Dec-13-05 04:00 PM

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120. "I give She Hate Me a 4.25....."
In response to Reply # 118


  

          

I enjoyed the film thoroughly...

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Dec-13-05 04:11 PM

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121. "i assume that's out of 5?"
In response to Reply # 120
Tue Dec-13-05 04:21 PM by AFKAP_of_Darkness

  

          

okay… then we’re back on track. but if you’re gonna argue for the excellence of the film, then the double standard issue only weakens your argument

to be honest, though, if i have ever applied a double standard when assessing Spike’s work it has actually been **in his favor**… i continue to tolerate and rationalize a lot of Spike’s odd storytelling tics whereas i would have written them off as incompetent had it been any other director.

mainly because i believed (and still do believe, actually) that since there has never been a strong, SUSTAINED Black American film movement, Black filmmakers are going to have to construct their own film grammar from scratch, and yes, it’s gonna be a little awkward going at first.

but after a few films, there’s really no way you can continue to explain away the fact that Spike has some serious problems with storytelling – his inability to properly end his stories is the most obvious deficiency, but there are others.

i really can’t accept the whole “you’re rejecting She Hate Me because it’s a Black man doing something different from the norm” argument. Carl Franklin’s One False Move is one of my favorite films and it was very different from what Black filmmakers were doing back then (or even now) but it works. because Franklin tells the story effectively. no excuses necessary.

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scorpion
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Tue Dec-13-05 04:31 PM

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123. "poor comparison...."
In response to Reply # 121


  

          

Carl Franklin is a linear director...where as Spike tries to explore film as an artform....

I neve rhad a problem following Spike's stories....my only consistent complaint with him is sometimes he overloads his films with characters, some who aren't necessary....

Im still tryintg to understand why the whistleblowing bother you guys so much...

its BACKstory....its explains how the character got in the stituation he's in....

The avatar: Aries Love

**********************
Quote of a lifetime:
"...music is not just a hobby or what I do...it's what I live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogiz

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Tue Dec-13-05 04:52 PM

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124. "so 'linear' directing isn't art now?"
In response to Reply # 123
Tue Dec-13-05 04:55 PM by AFKAP_of_Darkness

  

          

it’s only art when you’re cutting all over the place and jumbling up the chronology for no reason except for because you can? well, then you should be loving Tarantino then!

(actually, even his fragmented chronology usually serves a purpose. i should say that you love… um… what’s that damn movie called? the one by the director of Y Tu Mama Tambien and starring Sean Penn, Naomi Watts and Benicio Del Toro?)

besides, One False Move’s plot is just as fractured… only it doesn’t employ flashbacks.

i know that’s not what you meant, btw… but i still have a problem with you saying “Spike Lee explores film as an artform.” whenever i hear someone appealing to a filmmaker’s “artfulness” or “experimentalism” it’s usually the beginning of an apology for poor storytelling skills.

Hitchcock explored film as an artform more than almost anybody else and he ALWAYS told a straightforward story with a beginning, middle and end. to me, this is the most basic tenet of narrative filmmaking and if Spike is not good at that, it’s a problem. it’s NOT about “exploring film as an artform.”

>I neve rhad a problem following Spike's stories....my only
>consistent complaint with him is sometimes he overloads his
>films with characters, some who aren't necessary....

and you say this as if it’s just a **small** problem

>Im still tryintg to understand why the whistleblowing bother
>you guys so much...
>
>its BACKstory....its explains how the character got in the
>stituation he's in....

you know what? i’m glad you brought that up, because i actually wanted to say something about that.

initially, i LOVED the whistleblowing thing, even when i knew it was just a set-up for what would presumably be the “real” plot of the story. i liked the fact that Spike took the time to construct this elaborate story because the average Hollywood film would usually try to get us to the meat as fast as possible and just perfunctorily show us the protagonist losing his job at the beginning with no explanation for it.

the problem is that the story resurfaced again after being ignored for 5 hours and it was distracting. and the more i think about, Spike should not have even included it in the first place.

if he wanted to tell a story about a dude impregnating lesbians or trying to win back his nouveau lesbo ex, then THAT is the story he should have told and saved the rest of that other bullshit for a different film.

Mamet always says that you should get right into the heart of your story as quickly as possible, and give the audience JUST enough information needed to understand the basic situation. it’s like when you’re telling a joke, you start it “a black guy, a white guy and a Chinaman walk into a bar…”

you don’t start the joke with when the white guy woke up, and the Asian guy got into a fight with his wife and the black guy’s dog ran away so they all decided separately that they needed a drink, so the Asian gentleman got into his car but stopped at the mechanic’s first and the white dude got into a taxi and told the driver "take me to the bat!" and the black guy…

none of that "back story" is gonna make the joke funnier or easier to understand. so we leave it the fuck out.

and this is a problem that Spike has, and this is the same problem you talk about when you say Spike includes too many characters. and no, this is NOT a small problem. it is a big problem. it is a major misunderstanding of how a story works.

granted, there’s more than one way to tell a story, of course… and i applaud Spike or anybody else who tries something new. but if it’s not working, i’m not necessarily gonna give you props for just trying. what’s the use of being “experimental” when the end product isn’t “good”?


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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Wed Dec-14-05 07:37 AM

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130. "correction:"
In response to Reply # 124


  

          


>(actually, even his fragmented chronology usually serves a
>purpose. i should say that you love… um… what’s that damn
>movie called? the one by the director of Y Tu Mama Tambien and
>starring Sean Penn, Naomi Watts and Benicio Del Toro?)

i meant the director of Amores Perros

and i STILL can't remember the name of the damn film... 16 oz or some shit.

it sucked.

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ZooTown74
Member since May 29th 2002
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Wed Dec-14-05 08:57 AM

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131. "The movie was 21 Grams"
In response to Reply # 130


  

          

And I don't remember it being that bad. In fact, I think I wrote a review on here touting it as the film of that year.

Of course that was probably because Spike Lee had nothing to do with it.

/sarcasm
___________________________________________________________________________________________
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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Wed Dec-14-05 09:17 AM

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132. "LOL"
In response to Reply # 131


  

          

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thegodcam
Member since Oct 22nd 2004
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Tue Dec-13-05 09:20 PM

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127. "100% CO-SIGN"
In response to Reply # 103


  

          

>Yall made me post on my vacation. I'm type mad, god.
>
>
>Let Orbit 'splain the 'She Hate Me' hate:
>
>You see, the problem with 'SHM' lays in an awkward double
>standard we all carry in regards to black directors and black
>films.
>
>You see, we tend not to like when black filmmakers go "outside
>the box" and create work that is out of the norm,
>unconventional, or obtuse.
>
>This is retarded because we routinely pardon, if not outright
>laud, similar work from white filmakers, all the time.
>
>That is why Spike Lee's most respected works, all fabulous
>films, are all films that hit their issues SQUARELY on the
>nose -- 'Do The Right Thing', 'Malcom X' and a host of others.
>Spike Lee started to suffer with the critics the second his
>films started to push the envelope, the second he tried to
>experiment a little bit, which is a natural progression for
>any artist.
>
>Among his most inconsistently and poorly reviewed films are:
>
>'Get on the Bus' -- A film that is a metaphor for black
>manhood, where every instrument and individual is symbollic in
>some fashion. This was relatively unprecedented for black
>filmmakers and especially for Spike Lee, and so critics pasted
>it. This is despite the fact that the film is well...fucking
>brilliant.
>
>'Summer of Sam' - In my top 5 Spike Lee joints ever.
>Absolutely brilliant. Problem was, white people and their
>black friends don't like the idea of Spike Lee, Mr."Race movie
>director" actually directing a movie where race is not the
>centerpiece of the film....it bugged them.
>
>Hating ass negroes pasted 'Summer of Sam' with:
>
>"who he think he is"
>
>"stick to what you do best"
>
>"What the hell is Spike doing trying to direct horror?"
>
>And others in this brand of lame-o criticisms, criticisms that
>are completely unfair, given that no one says anything similar
>when Spielberg makes his periodic piles of shit(see:Minority
>Report, AI, The Flinstones...many others).
>
>When Spielberg and company make bad films...we simply say:
>"Steven, you made a bad film."
>
>When Spike makes a film that we don't like, not only do we
>say:
>"Spike, you made a bad film"
>
>We say:
>"Spike...what are you trying to do?....Spike has lost
>it....."
>
>This explains the 'Bamboozled' debacle.
>
>Though 'Bamboozled' attacked its race issues head on, it did
>so in a decidely unconvential matter...awkward plot, awkward
>development and storyline. I dug it, thought it was cool and
>profound in its own way.
>
>White people, their friends, and toms said:
>
>"who does Spike think he is?"
>
>"That was too offbeat for me"
>
>
>This again, despite the fact that we not only pardon, but
>outright laud and dickride Jim Jaramusch, Richard
>Linklater(who I like), Quentin Tarantino, the cat who directs
>those trainwreck bad movies that all y'all love like
>'Happiness' and 'Palindromes(both of those movies fucking
>suck, thank you very much). '
>
>Take Jaramusch and a film like...'Ghost Dog'. I thought it was
>dope. Its sort of cultish. Lots of people, many of them white,
>dug it. Problem is, if Spike Lee directed 'Ghost Dog', put out
>the exact same film, the same people who liked it would say:
>
>"What was Spike's point?"
>
>"What was Spike trying to do?"
>
>"Spike over-stepped his boundaries with this one"
>
>
>Let *ANY* black filmmaker make a film like...say...'Life
>Aquatic'. We'd bitch and moan about how the film was too
>offbeat and esoteric.
>
>
>Let the Hughes Brothers have done 'A History of
>Violence'....it would have gotten none of the praise. It would
>been called, at best a "brave, but misguided attempt by the
>Hughes Brothers" instead of a film generating Oscar
>buzz(strange because it fucking sucks and was really weird, in
>a non cool way).
>
>
>This is what 'She Hate Me' suffers from. The wrong filmmaker
>made it.
>
>Hell, take a film like....'Black and White'. You
>remember...film "about" race...had a wild cast...Brooke
>Shields, Robert Downey Jr, Mike Tyson, Raekwon, Claudia
>Shiffer, Ben Stiller...mad people.
>
>Remember that?
>
>Directed by a white director(I 4get his name, but who cares).
>Had all sorts of sexually lurid scenes with a scattered,
>uncoventional sequence of events. Very racy.
>
>My problem with 'Black and White' was that well...it really
>wasn't very good.
>
>I saw it back in like 2000 when it came out at the insistence
>of several reviews I read that lauded it for being "radiant"
>and "brave" and "profound" and all sorts of dumb shit like
>that.
>
>I saw it, and saw a bad Spike Lee ripoff, that had shock
>scenes in it just for the sake of generating shock value, not
>for the sake of truly communicating anything honestly
>interesting or telling about race.
>
>I see 'She Hate Me' as at least as good, if not far, far, far,
>far, far, far, better than 'Black and White'. 'Black and
>White' was universally praised. 'She Hate Me' is universally
>shat on.
>
>The race of the directors is the only difference.
>
>'She Hate Me' is unconventional. 'SHM' is obtuse. 'SHM' is
>different. Not standard. unusual plotline. Ridden with social
>commentaries and messages. Sexaully suggestive.
>
>And I dug the hell out of it, along with 3 or 4 other people
>on earth.
>
>
>I don't quite see a solution to the problem I'm pointing out,
>as long as white people don't like black people. As long as
>those white people have a following of black people who tries
>to act like them(like a lot of negro film critics, and guys
>with Okayplayer.com accounts), this will continue.
>
>Its a damn shame really, because black fillmakers and writers
>should be able to be different and obtuse just like white
>filmmakers. I fear they'll never get the chance.
>
>Mang.
>
>
>----------------------------
>
>O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.
>
>"Any fighter that I face, I say prayers for them every night
>and that he and I live to fight another day."
>
>(C) Floyd Mayweather Jr.

*******************************************************
i will not let finite disappointment undermine infinite hope
- Cory Booker

Football is a simple game; 22 men chase a ball for 90 minutes, and at the end the Germans always win
- Gary Lineker

  

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celery77
Member since Aug 04th 2005
25307 posts
Wed Dec-14-05 05:07 PM

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134. "Fuck it -- I'll bite..."
In response to Reply # 103


  

          

>You see, we tend not to like when black filmmakers go "outside
>the box" and create work that is out of the norm,
>unconventional, or obtuse.

Which black filmmakers are you talking about besides Spike? And who is this phantom "we" that do not like them? Basically, what black-directed movies are you talking about and who are the critics that are bashing them. Shouldn't be too hard to answer.

>This is retarded because we routinely pardon, if not outright
>laud, similar work from white filmakers, all the time.
>
>That is why Spike Lee's most respected works, all fabulous
>films, are all films that hit their issues SQUARELY on the
>nose -- 'Do The Right Thing', 'Malcom X' and a host of others.
>Spike Lee started to suffer with the critics the second his
>films started to push the envelope, the second he tried to
>experiment a little bit, which is a natural progression for
>any artist.

Again -- this "we" that is routinely pardoning white directors -- I don't know who that is. You're going to have to name names.

And just because the critics don't get Spike has nothing to do with many of the posters in this thread. A lot of people (myself included) are in here saying they love Spike's whole body of work, but they're going to call a spade a spade and say SHM was a bad film. So don't argue with racist critics, argue with the OKPs posting in this thread.

>Among his most inconsistently and poorly reviewed films are:
>
>'Get on the Bus' -- A film that is a metaphor for black
>manhood, where every instrument and individual is symbollic in
>some fashion. This was relatively unprecedented for black
>filmmakers and especially for Spike Lee, and so critics pasted
>it. This is despite the fact that the film is well...fucking
>brilliant.

Haven't seen it, fully intend to. I'll watch anything Spike makes because I honestly think he's probably the greatest filmmaker of the last 20 years.

>'Summer of Sam' - In my top 5 Spike Lee joints ever.
>Absolutely brilliant. Problem was, white people and their
>black friends don't like the idea of Spike Lee, Mr."Race movie
>director" actually directing a movie where race is not the
>centerpiece of the film....it bugged them.

Again, haven't seen it, but everyone I've ever talked to said it was great. And I thought "25th Hour" was amazing, and the best picture of the year when it came out, so it's not like I'm getting upset when Spike isn't railing on race issues.

>And others in this brand of lame-o criticisms, criticisms that
>are completely unfair, given that no one says anything similar
>when Spielberg makes his periodic piles of shit(see:Minority
>Report, AI, The Flinstones...many others).
>
>When Spielberg and company make bad films...we simply say:
>"Steven, you made a bad film."

I think Spielberg is one of the most overrated directors in the history of director-dom. Private Ryan and Schindler's List were good, but not that good -- nowhere near Spike's films, in my book.

And just because the majority of Americans have horrible taste in film and fall all over themselves for a happy ending doesn't mean that the posters in this thread do. Again, who are you talking to? Mainstream white critics or the actual posters in this thread?

>When Spike makes a film that we don't like, not only do we
>say:
>"Spike, you made a bad film"
>
>We say:
>"Spike...what are you trying to do?....Spike has lost
>it....."

I've never said this, and I haven't seen this expressed once in this thread in regards to SHM. Everyone is saying that this film was bad for any number of reasons. Nobody is saying "Spike lost it." They're just saying that no director hits a home run every time out, and Spike struck out with SHM.

>This explains the 'Bamboozled' debacle.
>
>Though 'Bamboozled' attacked its race issues head on, it did
>so in a decidely unconvential matter...awkward plot, awkward
>development and storyline. I dug it, thought it was cool and
>profound in its own way.
>
>White people, their friends, and toms said:
>
>"who does Spike think he is?"
>
>"That was too offbeat for me"

What white people are you referring to? I'm white, and this might be my second favorite Spike film after Do The Right Thing. Every white person I know and who I've recommended it to enjoyed it as well. My DVD copy has gotten plenty of play in my town. Again, who are you attacking, mainstream white critics or the posters in this thread?

>This again, despite the fact that we not only pardon, but
>outright laud and dickride Jim Jaramusch, Richard
>Linklater(who I like), Quentin Tarantino, the cat who directs
>those trainwreck bad movies that all y'all love like
>'Happiness' and 'Palindromes(both of those movies fucking
>suck, thank you very much). '

Well -- here I can't say too much for the posters in this thread, but I think Jim Jarmusch is criminally overrated and I have yet to solve what the appeal in any of his films is. Richard Linklater is interesting, but he's no Spike Lee. QT makes some good popcorn movies. And I hate Todd Solondz' movies with a hatred only reserved for a select group of truly deserving people.

>Take Jaramusch and a film like...'Ghost Dog'. I thought it was
>dope. Its sort of cultish. Lots of people, many of them white,
>dug it. Problem is, if Spike Lee directed 'Ghost Dog', put out
>the exact same film, the same people who liked it would say:
>
>"What was Spike's point?"
>
>"What was Spike trying to do?"
>
>"Spike over-stepped his boundaries with this one"

This is pure conjecture. Pure hyperbole. It means nothing. But to play along, I'll tell you what I'd say if Spike made that movie, "Goddamn, it was slow, boring, visually unappealing, intentionally esoteric so indy kids could jock it, and a complete waste of an otherwise interesting character." That's because that's exactly what I said when Jim Jarmusch made it.

>Let *ANY* black filmmaker make a film like...say...'Life
>Aquatic'. We'd bitch and moan about how the film was too
>offbeat and esoteric.
>
>Let the Hughes Brothers have done 'A History of
>Violence'....it would have gotten none of the praise. It would
>been called, at best a "brave, but misguided attempt by the
>Hughes Brothers" instead of a film generating Oscar
>buzz(strange because it fucking sucks and was really weird, in
>a non cool way).

Again, pure conjecture. I can't say you're wrong, but you can't say you're right. You're just making stuff up here. Do better.

>My problem with 'Black and White' was that well...it really
>wasn't very good.

This is all I've ever heard about the film. Actually, I usually hear much stronger word against among those few who bother to watch it. I haven't bothered to watch it due to overwhelming bad word of mouth coming back to me. So what the fuck is your point? As the other poster already pointed out, to say it was "universally praised" is just ridiculous. You're going to need a better example.

>'She Hate Me' is unconventional. 'SHM' is obtuse. 'SHM' is
>different. Not standard. unusual plotline. Ridden with social
>commentaries and messages. Sexaully suggestive.

And I can stomach all of these things if I feel that they're incorporated into a GOOD movie (For example Bamboozled or He Got Game). The only thing I liked about the film was the ideas behind it, but they weren't developed or supported well enough for me to really get into them. The entertainment of the ethical debate -- sexuality v. business ethics -- got old after about 15 minutes, because the film didn't do enough to complicate them. I wanted it to succeed, but it just didn't.

>I don't quite see a solution to the problem I'm pointing out,
>as long as white people don't like black people. As long as
>those white people have a following of black people who tries
>to act like them(like a lot of negro film critics, and guys
>with Okayplayer.com accounts), this will continue.
>
>Its a damn shame really, because black fillmakers and writers
>should be able to be different and obtuse just like white
>filmmakers. I fear they'll never get the chance.

I fear you're making a straw man and railing on that instead of the actual debate that's occuring in this thread. Here -- I'll agree that the majority of white America, that the majority of asshole film critics, and a majority of yahoos working in Hollywood might fall prey to your criticism -- they're racist, dumb, short-sighted, and have difficulty look past the color of the skin of the director. They won't let black filmmakers experiment.

But what the fuck does that have to do with the debate going on in this thread? Or the fact that many people, who are otherwise Spike's fans and supporters, didn't like She Hate Me? If you want to argue the film's merits, you're going to have to argue about the film and not the racism of middle America.

You liked it -- cool. I'm glad the film succeeded for someone. But don't try and say everyone who didn't enjoy the film is a racist. That's just fucking dumb.

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52926 posts
Thu Dec-15-05 03:49 AM

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137. "****Strawman Alert****"
In response to Reply # 134


  

          


I was actually going to respond until read this and my alarm went off:

>You liked it -- cool. I'm glad the film succeeded for
>someone. But don't try and say everyone who didn't enjoy the
>film is a racist. That's just fucking dumb.

Right, because that is exactly what I said.

Okayplayers use them so often when discussing with me, I have an innate alarm for them. Do better.



----------------------------

O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.

"Any fighter that I face, I say prayers for them every night and that he and I live to fight another day."

(C) Floyd Mayweather Jr.

  

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celery77
Member since Aug 04th 2005
25307 posts
Thu Dec-15-05 05:16 AM

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139. "How does this quote not imply that?"
In response to Reply # 137


  

          

>I don't quite see a solution to the problem I'm pointing out,
>as long as white people don't like black people. As long as
>those white people have a following of black people who tries
>to act like them(like a lot of negro film critics, and guys
>with Okayplayer.com accounts), this will continue.

Let me requote and capitalize for emphasis "I don't quite see a solution to the problem I'm pointing out, AS LONG AS WHITE PEOPLE DON'T LIKE BLACK PEOPLE."

What part of that statement is NOT implying that the negative response to the film is based on racism? If I'm misreading that quote, please illuminate me.

And here's another one just for fun:

>Though 'Bamboozled' attacked its race issues head on, it did so in
>a decidely unconvential matter...awkward plot, awkward development
>and storyline. I dug it, thought it was cool and profound in its
>own way.
>
>White people, their friends, and toms said:
>
>"who does Spike think he is?"
>
>"That was too offbeat for me"

What part of that quote isn't implying that the reception of Spike's films is based on white people's inherent racism? Again, if I've misread, please illuminate me.

And I'm glad to know that while you're eager to pounce on other posters in this thread for ignoring all your arguments, you feel perfectly justified in dismissing my entire post because of the tacked on, two line conclusion. I'm not arguing with your rep on OKP, I'm arguing with the post you made in regards to She Hate Me.

  

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jigga
Charter member
31583 posts
Thu Dec-15-05 03:26 PM

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141. "Dear Orbit"
In response to Reply # 137


  

          

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0365957/

  

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REDeye
Charter member
6598 posts
Tue Dec-13-05 04:16 PM

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122. "hahahaha"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Only thing worse than watching this movie is arguing about it.

Spike had a stinker. Let it go. Inside Man trailer looks tight.

RED
http://arrena.blogspot.com

  

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Shaun_G
Charter member
3009 posts
Tue Dec-13-05 08:39 PM

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125. "he has a new movie?"
In response to Reply # 122


          

Didn't know about that...I need to check that trailer out.

Shaun G.

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
25919 posts
Tue Dec-13-05 09:00 PM

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126. "Denzel, Jodie Foster, Clive owen"
In response to Reply # 125


          

http://www.apple.com/trailers/universal/insideman/

Looks very cool.

  

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thegodcam
Member since Oct 22nd 2004
41235 posts
Tue Dec-13-05 09:25 PM

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128. "the movie was about ETHICS, people...."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i dont see any inconsistencies in the plot.... the movie made ppl think about what r their core values... what would u do if placed in a similar situation... ethics, yo... ethics.... dope flick if ya ask me...

*******************************************************
i will not let finite disappointment undermine infinite hope
- Cory Booker

Football is a simple game; 22 men chase a ball for 90 minutes, and at the end the Germans always win
- Gary Lineker

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
Charter member
84244 posts
Tue Dec-13-05 09:36 PM

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129. "forget about the ideas the film is supposedly about"
In response to Reply # 128


  

          

does it function well as a film? as a story?

that's my primary question.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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jeanlouis61
Member since Dec 02nd 2005
3416 posts
Wed Dec-14-05 02:06 PM

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133. "RE: Fuck that! I'm ready to fight alla y'all!"
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Dec-14-05 02:09 PM by jeanlouis61

  

          

the movie was a well written mess. the character's were well done but the direction of the story was bad. most movies have something to do with the title......yeah he said it in the movie, but if his ex is willing to help him make money so he can keep his lavish pad, how does she hate him?

also, the ending was crap. Him falling in love with the lesbian couple was just.....too porno for me. the kissing scend between them was just ridiculous. why didnt Spike concetrate more on the reasons why he was fired and locked out of the large firms. that could have been a great movie right there, instead of it being the bakbone too the ponro movie it came to be.

and am I really supposed to believe that a man would rather father twenty something kids, or produce that many children, then work at micki d's. come on! Live at home, get a messenger job. that was so stupid. he should have spent more time dealing with this guy's depression after losing his job and being locked out of big companies before he threw this character into sperm donation.

follow me @oldirtyplaster on the Twitter thing.....i say awesome stuff

  

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GumDrops
Charter member
26088 posts
Mon Dec-19-05 12:03 PM

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142. "she hates me is yet another self indulgent spike lee vehicle"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

spike doesnt voice his characters, he just uses them as toys for him to churn out the same old rhetoric hes been wheeling out for almost two decades
the ending to this was fucking atrocious! spike could have made a good film about corporate business ethics and the effects it has on its employees and its relation to the american public or whatever but no, he just had to get on his sopabox about one of his usual now-tired obsessions, which this time was homosexuality and his ill informed preconceptions about it
i dont think this film was insulting to women, i dont totally think it was even insulting to lesbians, they wanted a kid, he gave them the sperm, it was basically a business transaction, but that whole thread was only there so spike could do his little sweetback-tribute
(i dont think he was suggesting that lesbians could be 'converted' cos none of the women went over to the hetero side did they?)
this could have been a good film but its just another case of spike losing all sense of narrative discipline and pacing (and those forced speeches thrown in for no real reason, totally unnecessary to the character or plot by john turturro during his convo with john armstrong and those embarassing speeches during the court case were ridiculous)
spike didnt know what type of film to make with she hate me, this film was a mess

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52926 posts
Mon Dec-19-05 12:39 PM

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143. "^^^^Standard, unsubstantiated, lame, irrational Spike Hate^^^^"
In response to Reply # 142


  

          

>spike doesnt voice his characters, he just uses them as toys
>for him to churn out the same old rhetoric hes been wheeling
>out for almost two decades

What rhetoric do you speak of?

What "same old rhetoric" was being "wheeled out" in '25th Hour', 'He Got Game', 'Crooklyn', 'Clockers', 'Summer of Sam', 'Mo Better Blues'.......


This is what I mean about Spike hate. Its completely unfounded.

a)He tackles a diversity of issues, and so there is no "same old rhetoric": Do The Right Thing's issues were completely different than Jungle Fever's, which were completely different than Get On The Bus's which where completely different than Bamboozled's. There is no "same old rhetoric". Spike deals with an entire spectrum.

b)He uses characters for a purpose no more than any other director. He's just the only one who gets slammed for it.


c)You're a hater.



>the ending to this was fucking atrocious! spike could have
>made a good film about corporate business ethics and the
>effects it has on its employees and its relation to the
>american public or whatever but no, he just had to get on his
>sopabox about one of his usual now-tired obsessions, which
>this time was homosexuality and his ill informed
>preconceptions about it
>i dont think this film was insulting to women, i dont totally
>think it was even insulting to lesbians, they wanted a kid, he
>gave them the sperm, it was basically a business transaction,
>but that whole thread was only there so spike could do his
>little sweetback-tribute
>(i dont think he was suggesting that lesbians could be
>'converted' cos none of the women went over to the hetero side
>did they?)
>this could have been a good film but its just another case of
>spike losing all sense of narrative discipline and pacing (and
>those forced speeches thrown in for no real reason, totally
>unnecessary to the character or plot by john turturro during
>his convo with john armstrong and those embarassing speeches
>during the court case were ridiculous)
>spike didnt know what type of film to make with she hate me,
>this film was a mess

  

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IkeMoses
Charter member
70872 posts
Fri Dec-23-05 01:58 AM

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144. "Spike punked out on She Hate Me."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Spike is heavyhanded. Spike is weak on plot and thematically all over the place.

this we all know.

now that that is out the way, She Hate Me coulda been a great flick.

and i'm not talking about the AIDSvaccinegate scandal plotline.

i'm talking about the hands-on sperm donor plotline. not really, but that coulda worked as a driving plot device.

it woulda been hella politically incorrect. it woulda made little sense. it woulda pissed off hella folks and rightfully so. but who watches Spike joints for plot?

the relationship between Anthony Mackie and Kerry Washington's characters was worthy of a full film. her ambiguous preferences in terms of sexuality and commitment and his inability to accept them had hella merit. the scenes where they argue about the ending of their relationship and the flashback of him actually busting her in the act had hella emotional weight to it, and were acted perfectly. they showed how much potential this flick had.

spike coulda kept all the wacky shit. even the three way kiss. this is a spike joint after all we're talking about. i think he just put the other whistleblower issues in there to soften the zaniness up. if woulda been more open about it being farcical the flick woulda been much better.

-30-

Ike Manhood.

  

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GumDrops
Charter member
26088 posts
Tue Jan-03-06 07:34 AM

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146. "if he made the whole film surreal and dream like it would have been much..."
In response to Reply # 144


  

          

and had a better evenness of tone
but spike lee being spike lee, he cant resist chucking in a 'message' even when there doesnt need to be one
spike might be the most dogmatic filmmaker of the past 20 years

  

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