Magna
I mean they are even having Korean artists working on doing the animation.... and it still looks bad.


I was thinking about this while watching Ultimate Avengers.
The just regular scene to scene stuff was just off and blocky and poorly animated (to my eyes)

You never see that in a episode of Full Metal Alchamist/Ghost in the Shell/FC. Not that I'm a fan but still the art and animation is still so much better than anything American.


Same deal with the Boondocks, the still frame shots they use to promote it and the opening all look really good but the actual animation in the shows scene to scene is off and kinda shitty. A perfect example when the drawing wasn't shitty is the dream Huey has fighting the blind swordsman. Vs. the animation of the car chase and the teacher in the last episode (shitty).

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250 troops lead by Custer were defeated by the Dakota, they are Sioux Indians.

But like you said, it's not like our traditional animation is actually being produced in the states...So when you say "American Animation" these days the first thing that pops into my mind is Pixar. And that sure as hell ain't shitty.

But when it comes to 2-D? 9 times outta 10, America takes home the golden L.

With The Boondocks and Ultimate Avengers, I'd like to see a little less shading and a lot more frames. It looks kinda cheap. My guess would be because it *is* cheap. But I don't really know the industry ins and outs like that.

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@kennykeil

is the shit. Modern day stuff does suck, though.

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about a million times better than even a few seasons back


but even that is animated overseas.

Pixar, I don't really know....just what ever is in pop culture but I mean computer animation is something else.


The Ulitmates was just plain not drawn well scene to scene
the bodys and back ground were out of scale and .....not good
lol.

Same deal with Boondocks.


But like I say even on a tv shows like whoever does Ghost In the Shell...and there have been a few action animes on Adult Swim, the storys are slow as hell but the the art is magnifque!! from stills to movement to action it always looks good.

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250 troops lead by Custer were defeated by the Dakota, they are Sioux Indians.

But it stands to reason that Japan probably isn't exporting their bad cartoons. You know?

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@kennykeil

animation

that witch thing or whatever
the story was so fucking terrible and slow I think they pulled it
but the art.........I don't have words.


Fooly Cooley, GIS, FMA, Bebop and on and on

there is not ONE American series that matches the art of any of those.


I mean its not like Americans can't draw.......it's just like they can't animate for shit

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250 troops lead by Custer were defeated by the Dakota, they are Sioux Indians.

24 frames per second? Get the fuck outta here!!

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@kennykeil

I just know what looks good...

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250 troops lead by Custer were defeated by the Dakota, they are Sioux Indians.

I'm sure you know what a film negative looks like so I won't bore you with an explanation. With a film camera, live action is recorded in real time using 24 still pictures a second. In animation, each one of those still pictures has to be drawn. You get choppy animation when a still is doubled or trippled.

Here's another way to think about: lets say you moved your arm 90 degrees forward, from your side to out in front of you to the level of your shoulder. Smooth animation would devide that motion into 24 parts and it would seem as if the motion was unbroken. Choppy animation would divide the motion into 8 parts, 3 still drawings for each part. Parts of the motion would be cut out and it would seem as if the arm were jumping unnaturally. That's what he means by bad animation.

Mech

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250 troops lead by Custer were defeated by the Dakota, they are Sioux Indians.

you have a whole lot of what is called "limited animation": where as little of the character moves as possible.

For example, you'll notice in Hanna-Barbera cartoons like "Scooby-Doo" that when a character talks, only his or her mouth moves (not even the chin). The rest of the head is one drawing placed under changing drawings of a mouth, and that head is held for literally hundredes of frames. Every now and then, you will get a five-frame blink or an eight-frame head nod.

Your example spoke of eight frames per second vs. twenty-four. Much anime is actually done at eight frames a second (or shot "on threes"), and you can get away with decent-looking movement at twelve frames per second ("on twos"). Things only get bad when there is no movement at all or poorly drawn movement.

(story quality aside, of course)

I live in Japan, and they have some really shitty stuff out here too.
It is poorly drawn and the stories suuuuuck......

Fotunatly, they get canceled. YOu guys in the US do not get to see the shitty stuff.

However, as far as 2-D animation, Japan takes it, American animation has gone down until Pixar came on the scene and raised the bar.

They watch more Pixar cartoons out here than Ghost in a Shell. Mostly the geeks out here watch the hardcore anime, but if you ask the average person, they rarely know about it.

***************************************

If you seen it or heard it maybe probably I did it, maybe or maybe not I'll admit when I comit it.

Groening has said that a major influence on him was the Rocky and Bullwinkle show, a cartoon where the writing far outweighed the aestic. Now, I'm not knocking the animation in the Simpsons, I feel it fits the show well and some of the things they due with motion are mind bendingly hilarious. But, the show still suffers from the same Disney influence that every American animation falls victim to; ideally, every character moves and twitches like they were a live actor.

In anime, so much time of the show is spent using well crafted still images or layered still images to fake movement or unmotivated camera work that the budget and time can be weighted towards the action sequences where the motion of the characters is most important and will have the most visual weight. Having watched each of the first nine seasons of The Simpsons countless times, I've noticed where the animation has gone quite awry; but, the jokes are so damn funny it's easy to miss them and it's just as easy not to give a damn.

As for the Boondocks, it's clear they're more influenced by the style of anime and not it's animation techniques.

Mech

>As for the Boondocks, it's clear they're more influenced by
>the style of anime and not it's animation techniques.


ok there you go

you seem to know what your talking about
all I know is the Boondocks actual animation doesn't look that great

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250 troops lead by Custer were defeated by the Dakota, they are Sioux Indians.

If anything, they're always trying to find a way to put in less.

Shading is cheaper and easier than animating extra frames.

look at JLU for example.

it just doesn't seem to happen very often

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Pure class.

_
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when it comes down to animation. A great deal of American audiences still see cartoons as kids stuff. Even though the Simpsons open the door, America is still a little slow to accept animation fully. The Japanese on the other hand have more of an appreciation for animation as art and it shows in their animations.

On a side note, why do the Japanese (w/a few exceptions) always seem to draw their characters to resemble white people.





"I resolve to mercilessly abuse my illusions and smack stupidity in the mouth. I resolve to never acquire a taste for the bitter lies I am fed. I am making a resolution for revolution." -- Huey (The Boondocks)

...imported. The character designs from Disney were mimicked and over time it became a tradition of sorts. But, there are a lot of animation studios and directors who favor character designs that resemble Japanese people more than white people.

Mech

always seem to be the best to me. Movies like Graves of the Fireflies , Miyazaki films or Satoshi Kon's films have characters that look Japanese. For some reason, those films just seem to have an added authenticity when they do that.


"I resolve to mercilessly abuse my illusions and smack stupidity in the mouth. I resolve to never acquire a taste for the bitter lies I am fed. I am making a resolution for revolution." -- Huey (The Boondocks)

>On a side note, why do the Japanese (w/a few exceptions)
>always seem to draw their characters to resemble white
>people.
>


That a argument we have over and over here....I've heard convincing arguments from all over the specturm

from they don't draw characters to look white it's just our western bias

to in fact Japanese consider themselves European looking as evidence from their drawings of other asians such as the Koreans and Chinese as compared to Japanese.

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250 troops lead by Custer were defeated by the Dakota, they are Sioux Indians.

http://100megsfree4.com/abcsofdbz/gallery/popo.jpg
http://www.dltk-kids.com/pokemon/adoptions/124.gif

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"A man who is good enough to shed his blood for his country is good enough to be given a square deal afterwards. More than that no man is entitled, and less than that no man shall have." - TR

http://www.youtube.com/?v=6QXUXQ8miHs

http://www.youtube.com/?v=La16uVNeErk

Japan >>>> USA

even seemed a lil jim lee-ish

I remember seeing this at a comic convention about 10 years ago...
They ran it under the closing credits off the syndicated X-Men episodes, minus the song, of course...

sheeeeit

One thing that has to be looked at is the artwork vs. animation. A lot of japanese cartoons don't have good animation. As a matter of fact, many of them are extremely poorly animated. That is because they focus more on the artwork than the animation itself. That is why many anime's have extremely detailed characters and backgrounds, but the characters hardly ever move. They stand completely still when they talk. They don't articulate much at all. Ever wonder why a lot of anime's will randomly switch to a landscape or focus on some mundane object during a conversation? It's a technique to keep the number of frames they have to draw down. Much more focus is put on action sequences and what not. It's not so much that they have a bigger budget or put more effort into making the cartoons. They're just much better at making something look nice with given resources.

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Whut? Thee Sig...


"did niggaz really need a crack mascot?" - Phonte on the snowman

imitate it better.....

Just think back to that scene last week with Riley and the teacher in the car....everything just looked so poorly drawn

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250 troops lead by Custer were defeated by the Dakota, they are Sioux Indians.

its not like American anime is all that bad but I think early on with the great toons of the 70's Japanese anime was used and thus American anime became the orphan-child.

"Do to others what you would others have done unto you." - The Lord Jesus Christ

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It's just like why the espresso in Italy is amazing and it sucks balls here. There's nothing in the water over there, its just Italians demand the extra effort because they care about thier espresso.

If you go to Japan talking about how much you like Naruto, you will get clowned.

Later...
Kwesi K.

I LOVE hiphop

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250 troops lead by Custer were defeated by the Dakota, they are Sioux Indians.

I'm not arguing, I'm asking.

Mech

Anime has always been way ahead of american animation.



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250 troops lead by Custer were defeated by the Dakota, they are Sioux Indians.

It's just a different style. Japanese animation focuses more on the artwork, with the animation taking a back seat. American animation is more about fluidity of motion than detail.

Typical Anime is nice to look at, but isn't very fluid. Characters only move their mouths during conversations. Lots of scenes are made up of still images being moved around. A lot of episodes may consist of stills and scenes with either jerky animation or no movement whatsoever, followed up by a kickass fight scene.

American cartoons are usually less detailed. Characters might not be realistically proportioned, and the artwork may be less consistent from scene to scene. However, the animation is generally more fluid, and there is far more movement in general. In most American animation, characters articulate with both their mouths and bodies when they speak. They typically use more frames, and don't recycle animation nearly as much. Animation wise, they are far more consistent all the way through.

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Whut? Thee Sig...


"did niggaz really need a crack mascot?" - Phonte on the snowman

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250 troops lead by Custer were defeated by the Dakota, they are Sioux Indians.

If you are looking at style japaneese animation gets points because it is unfamiliar to western views, the theme appear to be deeper, but I would suggest they are present differently.

If you look at the actual animation. Many times, in these aniamtion shows character stand around, the detailed artwork is truck in and out, and panned all over the place, yet "real" animation is not taking place.

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>In most American animation, characters articulate
>with both their mouths and bodies when they speak.

he only needs to flail his arms around and sweat and all that before/during/after he's kicked your ass.

"im gonna just stand here like a badass and deliver my dialogue. james dean cant fuck wit this."

sheeeeit

The animation on most American TV animation is doon overseas, and is rushed onto tv. THe animation houses korea, austriala,ect are working on several cartoons at a time. Much gets lost in the translation when so the script, storyboards are done here and the rest is done oversees.

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Logic - Bobby Tarantino
Folded Like Fabric - Luxeries EP
dvsn - Sept 5th
Drake - Views
Radiohead - A Moon Shaped Pool
Netsky - 3

Which was good, don't get me wrong. But American animation, for the most part, is ass.



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THE AMPLIFIERZ: yes indeed

After Cowboy Bebop, Paranoia Agent, Planetes, Ghost In the Shell SAC ,Roujin Z, Memories, Miyazaki's entire catalogue, and plenty more I can't see why this would be the case.

If you're talking about how everyone seems to be copying anime, don't blame anime for that. That's like blaming hip hop because music on the radio sucks. That's the fault of a lazy, money hungy industry and far too many copy cats.

Later...
Kwesi K.

didn't know that... i loved the manga

_____________________

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And if you liked the manga, the anime (while slightly different) is very true to the spirit of the manga.

Later...
Kwesi K.

scratches and drum machines

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250 troops lead by Custer were defeated by the Dakota, they are Sioux Indians.

Just like here, once a gimmic or fad gets popular, it gets milked to death. Consequently you have maybe a handfull of really good productions while the majority are pretty mediocre.

Kwesi K.

And there is plenty of American animation of the last ten years that does not suck. Off the top of my head:

Lilo & Stitch.
The Emperor's New Groove.
(pretty much any Disney movie has great animation, even if it has a shitty story)
The Incredibles.
Monsters, Inc.
The Iron Giant.
Cats Don't Dance.

That's on an animation-quality basis. If we go into content, then we have the whole "Simpsons"/"Family Guy"/"Robot Chicken"/etc. group to place up on pedestals. And at one time, Steven Speilberg was twisting arms in order to get high-quality shows like "Tiny Toons", "animaniacs", and "Freakazoid" on the air.

Besides, why compare a direct-to-video kids' superhero/action movie with a high-budget anime series "Ghost in the Shell"? That's like comparing "The Cheetah Girls" to "Citizen Kane". Much American animation is of low visual quality because:

a) Animation is expensive. Especially on TV budgets. Japanese TV animation budgets tend to somehow be more manageable.

b) 95% of the animation is done in Korea, the Phillipeenes, Japan, India; pretty much anywhere that is not here, in sweatshop-like production houses that are more concerned with turning out footage than making works of quality.

c) American animation is an offshoot of live-action filmmaking, meaning it is based on fluid moevement. To save money, movement is taken out, and the result is a cheap appearance. Japanese animation has its roots in manga, and is therefor more based in static shots and intricate design. There's very little actual animation in most anime, but it looks good because the designs can withstand the twenty-minute frame holds that often appear in anime.

d) the average American consumer doesn't appear to give a shit.

>d) the average American consumer doesn't appear to give a
>shit.

Or at least, from a studio exec perspective, it is the case.

But I would have to say that shows like Avatar, Ben 10, Fosters and the DCAU productions are a sign that things are slowly changing.

...but I know Foster's gets away with what it does becasue it's done in Flash with rigged, jointed "models". The DC Animated shows aren't particularly lavishly animated, but they take the lead of anime and make damned good use of design, composition, and the storyboarding process.

...is it done well?

Even if you have to take shortcuts and use Flash or whatever, if the end product is good, I consider it mission accomplished.

That's pretty much what I'm trying to get at.

post.OVER.

V.

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