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Subject: "Zero Dark Thirty (Kathryn Bigelow, 2012)" This topic is locked.
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Mageddon
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4018 posts
Mon Aug-06-12 11:20 AM

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"Zero Dark Thirty (Kathryn Bigelow, 2012)"
Mon Aug-06-12 11:26 AM by Mageddon

  

          

http://youtu.be/EYFhFYoDAo4

http://thefilmstage.com/trailer/zero-dark-thirty-teaser-kathryn-bigelow-hunts-osama-in-the-hurt-locker-follow-up/

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
YEA NIGGGAAAA!!!!
Aug 06th 2012
1
2:39
Nov 27th 2012
2
The last hour was def
Nov 27th 2012
3
Sounds great.
Nov 27th 2012
4
Argo was assjuice, please
Nov 27th 2012
5
You've been so very angry lately. Calm thyself.
Nov 27th 2012
11
argo was actually a good movie...and affleck is talented.
Jan 07th 2013
66
Argo was really good
Jan 12th 2013
79
The pacing was not nearly as tight as Argo's
Nov 27th 2012
6
      I'm honestly offended that you're entertaining this comparison
Nov 27th 2012
7
           How do you pick your agendas?
Nov 27th 2012
9
           Clearly out of the air if he thinks Bigelow is shitted on.
Nov 27th 2012
12
           "Anything these PTP nerds like, I'm gonna shit on cause they get mad"
Nov 28th 2012
13
                Bigelow has an Oscar. Many film nerds like her.
Nov 28th 2012
14
                     Nope. She gets shit on for being a woman.
Nov 28th 2012
17
                          I should note that this is a recurring theme in Zero Dark Thirty
Nov 28th 2012
19
                               She may think that, but that'd be false.
Nov 28th 2012
20
                                    wait, she can't find a link between herself and the character
Nov 28th 2012
21
                                    Sure.
Nov 28th 2012
22
                                         Honest question: Does President Obama face racism?
Nov 28th 2012
23
                                         Be honest. You forgot all about the Oscar.
Nov 28th 2012
25
                                              You gonna answer the question?
Nov 28th 2012
26
                                                   First off I did.
Nov 28th 2012
27
                                                        No real reason to be mad. I'm just teaching here.
Nov 28th 2012
28
                                         i thought you were responding to Zootown
Nov 28th 2012
24
                                    I agree with you, but she might be on some Jordan shit
Dec 03rd 2012
31
           I know I shouldn't engage but whatever.
Nov 27th 2012
10
                'Argo' was a Ben Affleck beard and coat show.
Nov 28th 2012
15
                     Goodness you're so curmudgeonly these days.
Nov 28th 2012
16
                          lol @ these days
Nov 28th 2012
18
It's really great
Nov 27th 2012
8
I agree with everything Zoo said
Dec 03rd 2012
29
I hate Kathryn Bigelow, should I still see it?
Dec 03rd 2012
30
That saving face from totally botching the release of the movie
Dec 03rd 2012
32
      So the problem was pirating *in addition to* the downloading.
Dec 03rd 2012
33
           Do people rememeber how scummy they were?
Dec 04th 2012
34
WTH is up with the release schedule for this now?
Dec 07th 2012
35
They pushed it up, for some reason.
Dec 07th 2012
36
Isn't it obvious? Oscar nominations drop January 10th.
Dec 07th 2012
37
      I'm GOING TO DOWNLAOD IT before wide release
Dec 07th 2012
38
           I really wouldn't if I were you.
Dec 07th 2012
39
                Naw dog, fuck them
Dec 07th 2012
41
Man, Bret Easton Ellis went the fuck IN on KB *link*
Dec 07th 2012
40
Very good.
Dec 15th 2012
42
So none of you monkeys wanna talk about the big controversy?
Dec 15th 2012
43
http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/dae/78e/dae78ef4-4d74-43d8-a9...
Jan 12th 2013
80
It's been a few days....
Dec 17th 2012
44
I read a critic on Twitter who said that the movie's like Zodiac except
Dec 17th 2012
45
      That's fair.
Dec 17th 2012
46
      I strongly co-sign that.
Dec 17th 2012
47
      oh you mean long and boring--
Jan 05th 2013
63
RE: Zero Dark Thirty (Kathryn Bigelow, 2012)
Dec 22nd 2012
48
"What I want you to know is that Zero Dark Thirty is a dramatization,
Dec 22nd 2012
49
I mean, I see WHY they're reacting the way they are.
Dec 22nd 2012
50
      No doubt nm
Dec 23rd 2012
51
This reminds me of when Hoover required a disclaimer on 'Dillinger'
Dec 23rd 2012
52
for those that actually saw it: the modified stealth black hawk
Dec 23rd 2012
53
^^^ spoilers in that post for those that haven't read about the mission
Dec 23rd 2012
54
      sorry. didn't realize it might have been potential spoilers
Dec 23rd 2012
55
           To talk about it without spoiling it for you...
Dec 23rd 2012
56
Middle was 30 mins too long & the attachment to the protag was so forced
Dec 28th 2012
57
belabored and all, the middle was my favorite
Jan 05th 2013
58
saw it last night--
Jan 05th 2013
59
Jason Clarke stole it
Jan 05th 2013
60
This is supposed to be award worthy?
Jan 05th 2013
61
yeah im not really understanding--
Jan 05th 2013
62
      Kinda doubt it, since, y'know, they already did.
Jan 08th 2013
69
This felt like.....
Jan 07th 2013
64
It felt like a bad episode of Homeland to me.
Jan 13th 2013
86
not nearly as good as i thought it'd be...
Jan 07th 2013
65
The Impossible will not.
Jan 07th 2013
67
Bigelow and Boal clap back at this torture controversy shit (swipe)
Jan 08th 2013
68
The US was (and is) pro-torture
Jan 08th 2013
70
i really enjoyed this film but this post is turning into the Django post
Jan 09th 2013
71
holy crap this movie was boring.
Jan 11th 2013
72
To me, Maya's motivations were the most intersting part...
Jan 11th 2013
73
RE: To me, Maya's motivations were the most intersting part...
Jan 12th 2013
77
There's a difference between advocacy and journalism.
Jan 11th 2013
75
      Disagreed.
Jan 12th 2013
78
           See, that counter was way more evident to me than to you.
Jan 12th 2013
84
                RE: See, that counter was way more evident to me than to you.
Jan 17th 2013
93
Am I the only one here who...
Jan 11th 2013
74
Hurt Locker and ZD30 are racist.
Jan 12th 2013
81
neope. and ykno wats worse...?
Jan 21st 2013
97
This would make more money marketed as a Bert Macklin movie.
Jan 11th 2013
76
Saw it last night.
Jan 12th 2013
82
it was good, was expecting more perhaps
Jan 12th 2013
83
Not sure how it was Oscar worthy. The redhead can't act.
Jan 13th 2013
85
The torture wasn't an issue to me as much as (Spoiler?)
Jan 13th 2013
87
I watched the seal team 6 movie and felt like that movie
Jan 14th 2013
88
      People voting with their hearts.
Jan 14th 2013
89
Good film, but weird disconnect between first 2 hours and last 30 min
Jan 14th 2013
90
RE: Zero Dark Thirty (Kathryn Bigelow, 2012)
Jan 16th 2013
91
RE: Zero Dark Thirty (Kathryn Bigelow, 2012)
Jan 16th 2013
92
It was a MOVIE not a DOCUMENTARY
Jan 21st 2013
94
      RE: It was a MOVIE not a DOCUMENTARY
Jan 28th 2013
99
Ben Affleck beard and coat show >> This
Jan 21st 2013
95
finally saw it and was blown away by how mediocre it was
Jan 21st 2013
96
fuck this film. complete piece of shit.
Jan 28th 2013
98
bigelow and boal are cowards for not defending the film they made
Jan 28th 2013
100

bwood
Member since Apr 03rd 2006
8614 posts
Mon Aug-06-12 11:27 AM

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1. "YEA NIGGGAAAA!!!!"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Can't wait!

------------------------------------------
America from 9:00 on: https://youtu.be/GUwLCQU10KQ

  

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ZooTown74
Member since May 29th 2002
43582 posts
Tue Nov-27-12 07:14 PM

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2. "2:39"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

__________________________________________________________________________
Bitch, don't kill my vibe.

  

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ZooTown74
Member since May 29th 2002
43582 posts
Tue Nov-27-12 07:19 PM

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3. "The last hour was def"
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Nov-28-12 01:23 PM by ZooTown74

  

          

First hour and a half is the build-up, the actual work leading to the raid on bin Laden's compound, including a couple of intentionally uncomfortable scenes of torture. But yeah, this isn't Call of Duty: The Movie, investigative work has to be done, questions have to be asked, and random explosions have to happen before you get to "the main event," which itself isn't exactly the "rah-rah USA" moment one might be hoping for.

More later (maybe), but Jessica Chastain was fantastic, as was Jason Clarke. Script and direction are top-notch, and should see Oscar nominations.

There's very little outward emotion in this piece. I won't spoil anything, except to say that you get some of it in the powerful opening as well as the very end of the film, but that's about it...


And it has to be said here: this is NOT the exact, 100% accurate play-by-play on the killing of Osama bin Laden. It's a heavily-researched, FACT-BASED drama, with a disclaimer right off break telling you the latter detail...

Really solid...

___________________________________________________________________________
Bitch, don't kill my vibe.

  

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Ryan M
Member since Oct 21st 2002
43744 posts
Tue Nov-27-12 10:02 PM

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4. "Sounds great. "
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

This will sound weird but...how'd it compare to Argo?

------------------------------

17x NBA Champions

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52934 posts
Tue Nov-27-12 10:32 PM

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5. "Argo was assjuice, please"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

>This will sound weird but...how'd it compare to Argo?

Comparing Katheryn Bigelow to Ben Affleck as a filmmaker
is outright offensive

Ben Affleck was basically just walking around in cool
jackets the whole movie


----------------------------

Young Broadway Star Urgently Needs a Bone Marrow Donor. Is it you? http://MatchShannon.com/







O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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Ryan M
Member since Oct 21st 2002
43744 posts
Tue Nov-27-12 11:17 PM

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11. "You've been so very angry lately. Calm thyself. "
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

------------------------------

17x NBA Champions

  

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Basaglia
Member since Nov 30th 2004
49463 posts
Mon Jan-07-13 06:33 PM

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66. "argo was actually a good movie...and affleck is talented. "
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

pacing in argue was mercifully on point, because that coulda been a looooonnnng, unnecessarily epic bore.

but he ain't close to fuckin wit KB. i agree there.

____________________________________________________


Steph: I was just fooling about

Kyrie: I wasn't.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8OWNspU_yE

  

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AlBundy
Member since May 27th 2002
9621 posts
Sat Jan-12-13 04:40 AM

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79. "Argo was really good"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

-------------------------
“The other dude after me didn’t help my case. It was just like…crazy nigga factory going on.”
Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. “I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,” he says. “Never did.”-- Andre B

  

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ZooTown74
Member since May 29th 2002
43582 posts
Tue Nov-27-12 10:51 PM

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6. "The pacing was not nearly as tight as Argo's"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

That's not necessarily a bad thing, though; this story's covering about 10 years and quite a few events over that span of time

The last 40-45 minutes of the movie are dedicated specifically to the raid and its immediate aftermath

___________________________________________________________________________
Bitch, don't kill my vibe.

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52934 posts
Tue Nov-27-12 11:05 PM

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7. "I'm honestly offended that you're entertaining this comparison"
In response to Reply # 6
Tue Nov-27-12 11:06 PM by Orbit_Established

  

          

Argo was a dumbass B movie with one liners and Ben
Affleck wearing cool jackets

ZD30 is a well-researched, meaningful movie

Bigelow still gets shit on for being a woman, I guess

Don't ever mention her and Affleck in the same sentence

She's a real filmmaker, he's a fluke/joke

----------------------------

Young Broadway Star Urgently Needs a Bone Marrow Donor. Is it you? http://MatchShannon.com/







O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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CaptNish
Member since Mar 09th 2004
14495 posts
Tue Nov-27-12 11:15 PM

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9. "How do you pick your agendas?"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

I say this not as hate or snark.... but how do you decide "Let's add Affleck to the 'genda." And I don't mean how do you decide what you like and what you don't. I mean, how do you pick the keywords you search to make sure you get your proper hate on?

I'm asking as a fan. I ain't mad atcha.

Though I will say, I don't know why you're riding hard for Katheryn Bigelow. I think a Bigelow/Affleck comparison is pretty apt, seeing as how they're both A- directors in my eyes.

_
Yo! That’s My Jawn: The Podcast - Available Now!
http://linktr.ee/yothatsmyjawn

  

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Ryan M
Member since Oct 21st 2002
43744 posts
Tue Nov-27-12 11:20 PM

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12. "Clearly out of the air if he thinks Bigelow is shitted on. "
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

Excuse me.

OSCAR WINNER KATHERINE BIGELOW.

------------------------------

17x NBA Champions

  

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ZooTown74
Member since May 29th 2002
43582 posts
Wed Nov-28-12 12:14 AM

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13. ""Anything these PTP nerds like, I'm gonna shit on cause they get mad""
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

^^^ That's really all it is

___________________________________________________________________________
Bitch, don't kill my vibe.

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52934 posts
Wed Nov-28-12 06:45 AM

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14. "Bigelow has an Oscar. Many film nerds like her. "
In response to Reply # 13


  

          


So my support of her obviously isn't reactionary.

Ben Affleck is absolutely terrible, though

He is consistently the worst thing in every one of
his movies.

  

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Ryan M
Member since Oct 21st 2002
43744 posts
Wed Nov-28-12 09:21 AM

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17. "Nope. She gets shit on for being a woman. "
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

Be honest. You forgot she won an Oscar 3 years ago. Be honest.

------------------------------

17x NBA Champions

  

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ZooTown74
Member since May 29th 2002
43582 posts
Wed Nov-28-12 10:22 AM

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19. "I should note that this is a recurring theme in Zero Dark Thirty"
In response to Reply # 17
Wed Nov-28-12 10:22 AM by ZooTown74

  

          

Maya is constantly doubted and figuratively patted on the head for her work

It's not a stretch to believe that Kathryn drew a link between herself and this character

___________________________________________________________________________
Bitch, don't kill my vibe.

  

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Ryan M
Member since Oct 21st 2002
43744 posts
Wed Nov-28-12 11:42 AM

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20. "She may think that, but that'd be false."
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

I mean, maybe, MAYBE before Hurt Locker.

But she beat out James Cameron, Quentin Tarantino, and Jason Reitman for a director Oscar. That ship has sailed. She's clearly not "shit on".

------------------------------

17x NBA Champions

  

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navajo joe
Member since Apr 13th 2005
6573 posts
Wed Nov-28-12 01:01 PM

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21. "wait, she can't find a link between herself and the character"
In response to Reply # 20


          

over being treated differently because she's a woman....because she won an oscar?

-------------------------------

A lot of you players ain't okay.

We would have been better off with an okaycivics board instead of an okayactivist board

  

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Ryan M
Member since Oct 21st 2002
43744 posts
Wed Nov-28-12 01:45 PM

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22. "Sure."
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

Who am I to say what her POV is?

This is just all about her being "shitted on". She's absolutely not. Treated differently, had to work harder to get past bullshit in the past, had a harder time coming up? I get all that. Hell, she was the first woman to win the Oscar IIRC, I get that.

But c'mon.

Shitted on?

She's a critically acclaimed, Oscar-winning director. There's a HANDFUL of those in the world. She's NOT shitted on, not even a little bit.

------------------------------

17x NBA Champions

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52934 posts
Wed Nov-28-12 01:58 PM

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23. "Honest question: Does President Obama face racism? "
In response to Reply # 22


  

          


And is his race a political impediment at all?

Honest question.

He is the president of the US, after all.







































































































































































































(Just trying to gauge how much of an idiot you are. Methinks you're
just drumming up a horrific argument in the name of fighting with
Orbit_Established, because you know damn well her winning an Oscar
does not mean she isn't still shitted on because of her gender. Usually
I let people say dumb stuff and just let them drown in it, but I think
you're a nice guy and am giving you a chance to abort mission now
before you further embarrass yourself)

  

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Ryan M
Member since Oct 21st 2002
43744 posts
Wed Nov-28-12 02:20 PM

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25. "Be honest. You forgot all about the Oscar. "
In response to Reply # 23
Wed Nov-28-12 02:23 PM by Ryan M

  

          

And to answer your question, yes of course. This changes nothing.

------------------------------

17x NBA Champions

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52934 posts
Wed Nov-28-12 02:25 PM

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26. "You gonna answer the question? "
In response to Reply # 25


  

          


I'm obviously a bigger Bigelow fan than you are, and you
know that. Its the basis of my argument that she is in another
stratosphere relative to Affleck

Answer the question, doggie

----------------------------

Young Broadway Star Urgently Needs a Bone Marrow Donor. Is it you? http://MatchShannon.com/







O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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Ryan M
Member since Oct 21st 2002
43744 posts
Wed Nov-28-12 02:26 PM

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27. "First off I did. "
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

Second, LOL at you being the "answer the question" guy when you duck like a motherfucker.

------------------------------

17x NBA Champions

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52934 posts
Wed Nov-28-12 04:15 PM

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28. "No real reason to be mad. I'm just teaching here. "
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

>Second, LOL at you being the "answer the question" guy when
>you duck like a motherfucker.

Bigelow wins Oscars. Bigelow also gets unfair
critique because she' a woman. Both can be true.

If Bigelow was a shitty director like Affleck,
she wouldn't be sniffing any major releases or
deals

See how easy that was?


----------------------------

Young Broadway Star Urgently Needs a Bone Marrow Donor. Is it you? http://MatchShannon.com/







O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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navajo joe
Member since Apr 13th 2005
6573 posts
Wed Nov-28-12 02:01 PM

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24. "i thought you were responding to Zootown"
In response to Reply # 22
Wed Nov-28-12 02:01 PM by navajo joe

          

not Orbit_Established

if it is the former I take serious issue.
if it is the latter. carry on.

-------------------------------

A lot of you players ain't okay.

We would have been better off with an okaycivics board instead of an okayactivist board

  

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ZooTown74
Member since May 29th 2002
43582 posts
Mon Dec-03-12 03:19 PM

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31. "I agree with you, but she might be on some Jordan shit"
In response to Reply # 20
Mon Dec-03-12 03:19 PM by ZooTown74

  

          

That "I always gotta prove myself," taking-perceived-slights-and-using-them-to motivate-herself shit... who knows...

On a semi-related note, at least this year we won't have to deal with all of the inane, "Cameron vs. Bigelow!!!!!!"/"Battle of the Movie Exes!!!!!!!!!!!!!"/"Take THAT, Cameron!!!!!!!" bullshit like we did the last time around.

___________________________________________________________________________
Bitch, don't kill my vibe.

  

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Ryan M
Member since Oct 21st 2002
43744 posts
Tue Nov-27-12 11:15 PM

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10. "I know I shouldn't engage but whatever. "
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

I was asking in that its a real, historical event with a lot of fiction thrown in for the dramatic flair. Zoo literally said this isn't a TRUE story of how it went down but a fictionalized version. Add in the conflict with a middle eastern country and...the comparison is there. I haven't even seen a trailer for this one dude. Sooooo relax.

Argo did 'bers and you're angry and all but sheesh.

------------------------------

17x NBA Champions

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52934 posts
Wed Nov-28-12 08:28 AM

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15. "'Argo' was a Ben Affleck beard and coat show. "
In response to Reply # 10


  

          


'Argo' had some nice scenes but the film was basically
ruined by Ben Affleck....he's insufferable

'Zero Dark Thirty' is an actual historical/military realistic
fiction drama where the filmmaker cares about the story

Ben still inserting slow shots of him walking with long
coats, mostly because he was picked on as a nerd in
Boston and is still getting back at cool kids (true story)

The amount of care and thought and professionalism that
went into ZDT is on another plane from Argo

So just stop

----------------------------

Young Broadway Star Urgently Needs a Bone Marrow Donor. Is it you? http://MatchShannon.com/







O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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Ryan M
Member since Oct 21st 2002
43744 posts
Wed Nov-28-12 09:20 AM

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16. "Goodness you're so curmudgeonly these days. "
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

Calm down my man. It's not that serious. I haven't even SEEN this movie. Cry all you want...they're gonna be compared.

------------------------------

17x NBA Champions

  

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jigga
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Wed Nov-28-12 09:42 AM

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18. "lol @ these days"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

  

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mrshow
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Tue Nov-27-12 11:11 PM

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8. "It's really great"
In response to Reply # 3


          

Might be my fav movie so far this year. Really engrossing from the first minute on but I could see people being turned off by how clinical it is. Chastain really blew me away in this one but the whole cast is great.

  

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bwood
Member since Apr 03rd 2006
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Mon Dec-03-12 10:56 AM

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29. "I agree with everything Zoo said"
In response to Reply # 3


          

This shit is dope as fuck.

And yea that final shot delivered an big emotional punch. Props to Jessica Chastain.

------------------------------------------
America from 9:00 on: https://youtu.be/GUwLCQU10KQ

  

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handle
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30. "I hate Kathryn Bigelow, should I still see it?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

The bullshit of suing people downloading The Hurt Locker was too much for me.

  

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BigReg
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32. "That saving face from totally botching the release of the movie"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

>The bullshit of suing people downloading The Hurt Locker was
>too much for me.

I think they were like, 'It's an oscar winner war movie, and we made pennies...GOTTA BE THE INTERNETS'

Not realizing they sat on their thumbs for so long before they released it over here after it premiered at sundance(over a year) it you could buy the actual DVD's in stores overseas. Whoever really cared about the movie already saw it.

Not the director's fault tho.

  

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ZooTown74
Member since May 29th 2002
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Mon Dec-03-12 04:17 PM

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33. "So the problem was pirating *in addition to* the downloading."
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

Either way, I'm not sure how this is a bullshit gripe for them to have.

__________________________________________________________________________
Bitch, don't kill my vibe.

  

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handle
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34. "Do people rememeber how scummy they were?"
In response to Reply # 33


          

They sent out over 50,000 lawyer letters demanding people pay them $2,000. $100 MILLION DOLLARS in demand letters with little or no proof.

Really makes me not want to do business with them.





  

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B9
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Fri Dec-07-12 08:49 AM

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35. "WTH is up with the release schedule for this now?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I thought it was going wide on Christmas week, then I see an add that it's limited from the 19th and wide January 11?

  

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ZooTown74
Member since May 29th 2002
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Fri Dec-07-12 11:33 AM

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36. "They pushed it up, for some reason."
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

___________________________________________________________________________
Bitch, don't kill my vibe.

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
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Fri Dec-07-12 11:49 AM

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37. "Isn't it obvious? Oscar nominations drop January 10th."
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

They know they will be at that point a heavy contender if not a front-runner for Best Picture. The limited release will have desire to see it at a fever pitch, and they'll drop it on America right after it gets by my count between 6 and 9 nominations. Easy money.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

  

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handle
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Fri Dec-07-12 12:17 PM

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38. "I'm GOING TO DOWNLAOD IT before wide release"
In response to Reply # 37


          

Show them suckers a thing or two... grumble....

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
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Fri Dec-07-12 01:15 PM

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39. "I really wouldn't if I were you."
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

Regardless of your personal views on downloading, intelligent well-made studio movies deserve your money, because the more money smart movies make, the more smart movies we'll get in the future.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

  

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handle
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41. "Naw dog, fuck them"
In response to Reply # 39


          

I'm not even going to watch it, just download it and delete it.

Because I'm the real hero!

  

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CaptNish
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Fri Dec-07-12 01:42 PM

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40. "Man, Bret Easton Ellis went the fuck IN on KB *link*"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/bret-easton-ellis-kathryn-bigelow-399232

Shit is hilarious. I love that celeb trolling.

_
Yo! That’s My Jawn: The Podcast - Available Now!
http://linktr.ee/yothatsmyjawn

  

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Ryan M
Member since Oct 21st 2002
43744 posts
Sat Dec-15-12 07:53 PM

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42. "Very good. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I liked it a lot. Gotta digest for awhile but its extremely well done.

------------------------------

17x NBA Champions

  

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The DC Sniper
Member since Apr 13th 2010
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Sat Dec-15-12 08:18 PM

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43. "So none of you monkeys wanna talk about the big controversy?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/14/zero-dark-thirty-cia-propaganda

Zero Dark Thirty: CIA hagiography, pernicious propaganda

As it turns out, the film as a political statement is worse than even its harshest early critics warned

Glenn Greenwald

guardian.co.uk, Friday 14 December 2012 10.03 EST

I've now seen "Zero Dark Thirty". Before getting to that: the controversy triggered this week by my commentary on the debate over that film was one of the most ridiculous in which I've ever been involved. It was astounding to watch critics of what I wrote just pretend that I had simply invented or "guessed at" the only point of the film I discussed - that it falsely depicted torture as valuable in finding bin Laden - all while concealing from their readers the ample factual bases I cited: namely, the fact that countless writers, almost unanimously, categorically stated that the film showed exactly this (see here for a partial list of reviewers and commentators who made this factual statement definitively about the film - that it depicts torture as valuable in finding bin Laden - both before and after my column).

Of course it's permissible to comment on reviews that are written.That's why they're written - and why they're published before the film is released, in this case weeks before its release. I discussed the film's depiction of torture as valuable in finding bin Laden because I did not believe that the New York Times' Frank Bruni, the New Yorker's Dexter Filkins, New York's David Edelstein, CNN's Peter Bergen and all sorts of other commentators had simultaneously hallucinated or decided to fabricate on this key factual question.

That it's legitimate to opine on the factual claims (as opposed to the value judgments) of reviewers is not some exotic or idiosyncratic theory that I invented. All kinds of writers who had not seen the film nonetheless similarly condemned this singular aspect of it based on this evidence, including: Andrew Sullivan, twice ("Bigelow constructs a movie upon a grotesque lie" and torture techniques "were not instrumental in capturing and killing Osama bin Laden - which is the premise of the movie"); Mother Jones' Adam Serwer ("The critical acclaim Zero Dark Thirty is already receiving suggests that it may do what Karl Rove could not have done with all the money in the world: embed in the popular imagination the efficacy, even the necessity, of torture"); NYU journalism professor Jay Rosen ("WTF is Kathryn Bigelow doing inserting torture into her film, Zero Dark Thirty, if it wasn't used to get Bin Laden?"); The Daily Beast's Michael Tomasky ("Can I just say that I am equally bothered, and indeed even more bothered, by the fact that the movie opens with 9-11. . . . According to reports, I haven't seen the film, so maybe it's handled well, that decisions seems to make the film automatically and definitionally a work of propaganda"), and so on.

None of us was "reviewing" the film but rather rebutting and condemning its false assertion that torture was critical in finding bin Laden. As Sullivan put it in yet another post about the film: "the mere facts about the movie, as reported by many viewers, do not require a review. They demand a rebuttal." Indeed (and all of that's independent of the primary point I examined - regarding critics who simultaneously acknowledge that the film falsely depicts torture as valuable yet still hail it as "great": an abstract discussion on the obligations of filmmakers that obviously is not dependent upon the film's content).

Having now seen the film, it turns out that Bruni, Filkins, Edelstein, Bergen and the others did not in fact hallucinate or fabricate. The film absolutely and unambiguously shows torture as extremely valuable in finding bin Laden - exactly as they said it did - and it does so in multiple ways.

Zero Dark Thirty and the utility and glory of torture

I'll explain why this is so in a moment (and if you don't want "spoilers", don't read this), but first, I want to explain why this point matters so much. In US political culture, there is no event in the last decade that has inspired as much collective pride and pervasive consensus as the killing of Osama bin Laden.

This event has obtained sacred status in American political lore. Nobody can speak ill of it, or even question it, without immediately prompting an avalanche of anger and resentment. The news of his death triggered an outburst of patriotic street chanting and nationalistic glee that continued unabated two years later into the Democratic National Convention. As Wired's Pentagon reporter Spencer Ackerman put it in his defense of the film, the killing of bin Laden makes him (and most others) "very, very proud to be American." Very, very proud.

For that reason, to depict X as valuable in enabling the killing of bin Laden is - by definition - to glorify X. That formula will lead huge numbers of American viewers to regard X as justified and important. In this film: X = torture. That's why it glorifies torture: because it powerfully depicts it as a vital step - the first, indispensable step - in what enabled the US to hunt down and pump bullets into America's most hated public enemy.

The fact that nice liberals who already opposed torture (like Spencer Ackerman) felt squeamish and uncomfortable watching the torture scenes is irrelevant. That does not negate this point at all. People who support torture don't support it because they don't realize it's brutal. They know it's brutal - that's precisely why they think it works - and they believe it's justifiable because of its brutality: because it is helpful in extracting important information, catching terrorists, and keeping them safe. This film repeatedly reinforces that belief by depicting torture exactly as its supporters like to see it: as an ugly though necessary tactic used by brave and patriotic CIA agents in stopping hateful, violent terrorists.

Indeed, here is how Slate's Emily Bazelon, who defends the film even while acknowledging that it "reads as pro-torture", describes her reaction to the torture scenes:

"At the end of the interrogation scenes, I felt shaken but not morally repulsed, because the movie had successfully led me to adopt, if only temporarily, 's point of view: This treatment is a legitimate way of securing information vital to US interests."

That's the effect it had on a liberal who proclaims herself to be adamantly opposed to torture and is a professional journalist well-versed in these issues. Imagine how someone less committed to an anti-torture position will regard the message.

If you're a national security journalist who studies and writes about these issues, then you can convince yourself that the film focuses on the part of the bin Laden hunt that you like: all the nice "police work" that ultimately led the CIA to find bin Laden's house. But the film dramatically posits that this is possible only because of the information extracted from detainees who were tortured. The unmistakable and overwhelming impression created is that, as Bruni put it: "no waterboarding, no Bin Laden."

Everything about the film reinforces this message. It immediately goes from its emotionally exploitative start - harrowing audio tapes of 9/11 victims crying for help - into CIA torture sessions of Muslim terrorists that take up a good portion of the film's first forty-five minutes.

The key evidence - the identity of bin Laden's courier - is revealed only after a detainee is brutally and repeatedly abused. Sitting at a table with his CIA torturer, who gives him food as part of a ruse, that detainee reveals this critical information only after the CIA torturer says to him: "I can always go eat with some other guy - and hang you back up to the ceiling." That's when the detainee coughs up the war name of bin Laden's courier - after he's threatened with more torture - and the entire rest of the film is then devoted to tracking that information about the courier, which is what leads them to bin Laden.

But the film touts the value of torture in all sorts of other ways. Other detainees whose arms are shackled to the ceiling are shown confirming the courier's identity. Another detainee, after being threatened with rendition to Israel, pleads: "I have no wish to be tortured again - ask me a question, and I will answer it."

And worst of all, the film's pure, saintly heroine - a dogged CIA agent who sacrifices her entire life and career to find bin Laden - herself presides over multiple torture sessions, including a waterboarding scene and an interrogation session where she repeatedly encourages some US agent to slap the face of the detainee when he refuses to answer. "You do realize, this is not a normal prison: you determine how you are treated", our noble heroine tells an abused detainee.

There is zero opposition expressed to torture. None of the internal objections from the FBI or even CIA is mentioned. The only hint of a debate comes when Obama is shown briefly on television decreeing that torture must not be used, which is later followed by one of the CIA officials - now hot on bin Laden's trail - lamenting in the Situation Room when told to find proof that bin Laden has been found: "You know we lost the ability to prove that when we lost the detainee program - who the hell am I supposed to ask: some guy in GITMO who is all lawyered up?" Nobody ever contests or challenges that view.

This film presents torture as its CIA proponents and administrators see it: as a dirty, ugly business that is necessary to protect America. There is zero doubt, as so many reviewers have said, that the standard viewer will get the message loud and clear: we found and killed bin Laden because we tortured The Terrorists. No matter how you slice it, no matter how upset it makes progressive commentators to watch people being waterboarded, that - whether intended or not - is the film's glorification of torture.

CIA propaganda beyond torture

As it turns out, the most pernicious propagandistic aspect of this film is not its pro-torture message. It is its overarching, suffocating jingoism. This film has only one perspective of the world - the CIA's - and it uncritically presents it for its entire 2 1/2 hour duration.

All agents of the US government - especially in its intelligence and military agencies - are heroic, noble, self-sacrificing crusaders devoted to stopping The Terrorists; their only sin is all-consuming, sometimes excessive devotion to this task. Almost every Muslim and Arab in the film is a villainous, one-dimensional cartoon figure: dark, seedy, violent, shadowy, menacing, and part of a Terrorist network (the sole exception being a high-level Muslim CIA official, who takes a break from praying to authorize the use of funds to bribe a Kuwaiti official for information; the only good Muslim is found at the CIA).

Other than the last scene in which the bin Laden house is raided, all of the hard-core, bloody violence is carried out by Muslims, with Americans as the victims. The CIA heroine dines at the Islamabad Marriott when it is suddenly blown up; she is shot at outside of a US embassy in Pakistan; she sits on the floor, devastated, after hearing that seven CIA agents, including one of her friends, a "mother of three", has been killed by an Al Qaeda double-agent suicide-bomber at a CIA base in Afghanistan.

News footage is gratuitously shown that reports on the arrest of the attempted Times Square bomber, followed by Mayor Michael Bloomberg's pronouncement that "there are some people around the world who find our freedom so threatening that they are willing to kill themselves and others to prevent us from enjoying them." One CIA official dramatically reminds us: "They attacked us on land in '98, by sea in 2000, and by air in 2001. They murdered 3000 of our citizens in cold blood." Nobody is ever heard talking about the civilian-destroying violence brought to the world by the US.

The CIA and the US government are the Good Guys, the innocent targets of terrorist violence, the courageous warriors seeking justice for the 9/11 victims. Muslims and Arabs are the dastardly villains, attacking and killing without motive (other than the one provided by Bloomberg) and without scruples. Almost all Hollywood action films end with the good guys vanquishing the big, bad villain - so that the audience can leave feeling good about the world and themselves - and this is exactly the script to which this film adheres.

None of this is surprising. The controversy preceding the film arose from the deep access and secret information given to the filmmakers by the CIA. As is usually the case, this special access was richly rewarded.

In the Atlantic this morning, Peter Maass makes this point perfectly in his piece entitled "Don't Trust 'Zero Dark Thirty'". That, he writes, is because "it represents a troubling new frontier of government-embedded filmmaking." He continues: "An already problematic practice - giving special access to vetted journalists - is now deployed for the larger goal of creating cinematic myths that are favorable to the sponsoring entity (in the case of Zero Dark Thirty, the CIA)."

Indeed, from start to finish, this is the CIA's film: its perspective, its morality, its side of the story, The Agency as the supreme heroes. (That there is ample evidence to suspect that the film's CIA heroine is, at least in composite part, based on the same female CIA agent responsible for the kidnapping, drugging and torture of Khalid El-Masri in 2003, an innocent man just awarded compensation this week by the European Court of Human Rights, just symbolizes the odious aspects of uncritically venerating the CIA in this manner).

It is a true sign of the times that Liberal Hollywood has produced the ultimate hagiography of the most secretive arm of America's National Security State, while liberal film critics lead the parade of praise and line up to bestow it with every imaginable accolade. Like the bin Laden killing itself, this is a film that tells Americans to feel good about themselves, to feel gratitude for the violence done in their name, to perceive the War-on-Terror-era CIA not as lawless criminals but as honorable heroes.

Nothing inspires loyalty and gratitude more than making people feel good about themselves. Few films accomplish that as effectively and powerfully as this one does. That's why critics of the film inspire anger almost as much as critics of the bin Laden killing itself: what is being maligned is a holy chapter in the Gospel of America's Goodness.

The "art" excuse

A common objection to what I wrote about the film is that even if it falsely depicts torture as valuable in finding bin Laden, those kinds of "political objections" do not and should not preclude praise for the film because "art" need not accommodate ideology or political agendas. Time's critic James Poniewozik accused me of having "a simplistic way of looking at art" which, he said, is "not surprising, because Greenwald is a political writer (or at least an ideological public-affairs writer), and this is the political way of looking at art." Salon's critic Andrew O'Hehir, gushing about the film, opines: "I'm not suggesting that the moral and ethical deconstruction doesn't matter, but the movie is much bigger than that."

Contrary to Poniewozik's insinuations, I don't think fictional works must reflect or advance my political beliefs in order to be worthy of praise. As but one example, I've defended the Showtime program "Homeland" - despite some valid criticisms that it promotes some heinous viewpoints - on the ground that (unlike Zero Dark Thirty) it includes a full range of views on those issues and thus avoids endorsing or propagandizing on them (as but one example: a US Marine Sergeant becomes an anti-US "terrorist" after he watches the US government knowingly slaughter dozens of Iraqi children in a drone attack, including one to whom he had become close - the 10-year-old son of a bin Laden-like figure - only to lie about it afterward). I agree with Poniewozik and other film critics who insist that it's perfectly legitimate for works of fiction to depict, without adopting, even the most heinous views.

But the idea that Zero Dark Thirty should be regarded purely as an apolitical "work of art" and not be held accountable for its political implications is, in my view, pretentious, pseudo-intellectual, and ultimately amoral claptrap. That's true for several reasons.

First, this excuse completely contradicts what the filmmakers themselves say about what they are doing. Bigelow has been praising herself for the "journalistic" approach she has taken to depicting these events. The film's first screen assures viewers that it is all "based on first hand accounts of actual events". You can't claim you're doing journalism and then scream "art" to justify radical inaccuracies. Serwer aptly noted the manipulative shell-game driving this: "If you're thinking of giving them an award, Zero Dark Thirty is 'history'; if you're a journalist asking a question about a factual error in the film, it's just a movie."

Second, the very idea that this is some sort of apolitical work of art is ludicrous. The film is about the two most politicized events of the last decade: the 9/11 attack (which it starts with) and the killing of bin Laden (which it ends with). George Bush got re-elected running on the former, while Obama just got re-elected running on the latter. It was made with the close cooperation of the CIA, Pentagon and White House. Everything about this film - its subject, its claims, its mode of production, its implications - are political to its core. It does not have an apolitical bone in its body. Demanding that political considerations be excluded from how this film is judged is nonsensical; it's a political film from start to finish.

Third, to demand that this movie be treated as "art" is to expand that term beyond any real recognition. This film is Hollywood shlock. The brave crusaders slay the Evil Villains, and everyone cheers.

While parts of the film are technically well-executed, it features almost every cliche of Hollywood action/military films. The characters are one-dimensional cartoons: the heroine is a much less interesting and less complex knock-off of Homeland's Carrie: a CIA agent who sacrifices her personal life, disregards bureaucratic and social niceties, her careerist interests, and even her own physical well-being, in monomaniacal pursuit of The Big Terrorist.

Worst of all, it does not challenge, subvert, or even unsettle a single nationalistic orthodoxy. It grapples with no big questions, takes no risks in the political values it promotes, and is even too fearful of letting upsetting views be heard, let alone validated (such as the grievances of Terrorists that lead them to engage in violence, or the equivalence between their methods and "ours").

There's nothing courageous, or impressive, about any of this. As one friend who is a long-time journalist put it to me by email (I'm quoting this because I can't improve on how it's expressed):

"I also feel like there's this tendency of critics to give credit to artists (argh, novelists, too) for simply raising uncomfortable issues, even when they don't bother to coherently think them through, as though just wallowing in the gray areas of the human condition is a noble thing (and sure, it can be, but it can be lazy, too)."

Perhaps film critics are forced to watch so many shoddy Hollywood films that their expectations are very low and they are easily pleased. But if this is high-minded "art", then anything produced by turning on a camera is. As one friend, who works in the film industry, put it:


As that blog you linked to said - it's perfect for people who are so called PC and cool liberal types. Everything about it - how it's framed and branded as some cool Traffic-style movie so people feel as though they're smart by watching it."

But despite all that, this film deserves the debate it is attracting. It matters. Huge numbers of people are going to see it. Critics are swooning for it and it will be lavished with all sorts of awards. Mass entertainment has at least as much of an impact on political perceptions as overtly political writing does - probably more so. It's reckless to insist that a film that will have this big of an impact on matters so consequential - the commission by the US of grave war crimes both in the past and potentially in the future - should be shielded from discussions of its political claims and consequences.

That doesn't mean it has an affirmative responsibility to preach or propagandize. If the torture claims it makes were actually true - that torture played a key role in finding bin Laden - then there would be nothing wrong with depicting that (although opposing perspectives should be included as well).

Emily Bazelon is right when she says that "we opponents of harsh interrogation need to remember that we can make the moral case against torture . . . without resorting to the claim that torture never accomplishes anything." In all the years I've been arguing about torture, I never once claimed it never works - because that claim is, to me, both untrue and irrelevant. Torture - like murder - is categorically wrong no matter what benefits it produces.

The issue here is falsity. The problem isn't that they showed torture working. The problem, as Adam Serwer and Andrew Sullivan amply document, is that the claims it makes are false. Given the likely consequences of this fabrication - making even more Americans more supportive of torture, perhaps even making the use of torture more likely in the future - that this is a so-called "work of art" does not excuse it (notably, Bigelow is not defending the film on the ground that she showed torture as valuable because it was; she's disingenuously denying that the film shows torture as having value).

Ultimately, I really want to know whether the critics who defend this film on the grounds of "art" really believe the principles they are espousing. I raised the Leni Reifenstahl debate in my first piece not to compare Zero Dark Thirty to Triumph of the Will - or to compare Bigelow to the German director - but because this is the debate that has long been at the heart of the controversy over her career.

Do the defenders of this film believe Riefenstahl has also gotten a bad rap on the ground that she was making art, and political objections (ie, her films glorified Nazism) thus have no place in discussions of her films? I've actually always been ambivalent about that debate because, unlike Zero Dark Thirty, Riefenstahl's films only depicted real events and did not rely on fabrications.

But I always perceived myself in the minority on that question due to that ambivalence. It always seemed to me there was a consensus in the west that Riefenstahl was culpable and her defense of "I was just an artist" unacceptable.

Do defenders of Zero Dark Thirty view Riefenstahl critics as overly ideological heathens who demand that art adhere to their ideology? If the KKK next year produces a superbly executed film devoted to touting the virtues of white supremacy, would it be wrong to object if it wins the Best Picture Oscar on the ground that it promotes repellent ideas?

I have a very hard time seeing liberal defenders of Zero Dark Thirty extending their alleged principles about art to films that, unlike this film, are actually unsettling, provocative and controversial. It's quite easy to defend this film because it's ultimately going to be pleasing to the vast majority of US viewers as it bolsters and validates their assumptions. That's why it seems to me that the love this film is inspiring is inseparable from its political content: it's precisely because it makes Americans feel so good - about an event that Ackerman says makes him "very, very proud to be American" - that it is so beloved.

Whatever else is true about it, Zero Dark Thirty is an aggressively political film with a very dubious political message that it embraces and instills in every way it can. David Edelstein, the New York Magazine critic, had it exactly right when he wrote that it "borders on the politically and morally reprehensible", though I think it crosses that border. It's thus not only legitimate, but necessary, to engage it as what it is: a political argument that advances - whether by design or effect - the interests of powerful political factions.

UPDATE

Having seen the film, Andrew Sullivan has now announced that not only does it not depict torture as helpful in finding bin Laden, but also, anyone who thinks it does believes this only "because they want to see that or because they are as dumb as Owen Gleiberman". Click here for the list of writers and commenators who are apparently delusional and/or dumb.

Unfortunately for Andrew, that list now includes The New Yorker's Jane Mayer, probably the foremost journalistic expert on torture (having written the definitive investigative book about it), who published a scathing attack on the film today and writes:


"In hands, the hunt for bin Laden is essentially a police procedural, devoid of moral context. If she were making a film about slavery in antebellum America, it seems, the story would focus on whether the cotton crops were successful. . . .

"Yet what is so unsettling about 'Zero Dark Thirty' is not that it tells this difficult history but, rather, that it distorts it. In addition to excising the moral debate that raged over the interrogation program during the Bush years, the film also seems to accept almost without question that the CIA's 'enhanced interrogation techniques' played a key role in enabling the agency to identify the courier who unwittingly led them to bin Laden. But this claim has been debunked, repeatedly, by reliable sources with access to the facts. . . .

"In addition to providing false advertising for waterboarding, 'Zero Dark Thirty' endorses torture in several other subtle ways. . . . .

"If there is an expectation of accuracy, it is set up by the filmmakers themselves. It seems they want it both ways: they want the thrill that comes from revealing what happened behind the scenes as history was being made and the creative license of fiction, which frees them from the responsibility to stick to the truth."


It goes on and on like that. Read it all. Obviously, the mere fact that Jane Mayer says this does not by itself prove that it's true, but it makes it more difficult to claim, as Sullivan would like to, that it takes hallucinations or stupidity to think this is the case. She provides only some of the many examples that prove why this film - just from the torture perspective, to say nothing of the rest of it - is so disturbing and damaging.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2012/12/torture-in-kathryn-bigelows-zero-dark-thirty.html

ZERO CONSCIENCE IN “ZERO DARK THIRTY”

Posted by Jane Mayer

At the same time that the European Court of Human Rights has issued a historic ruling condemning the C.I.A.’s treatment of a terror suspect during the Bush years as “torture,” a Hollywood movie about the agency’s hunt for Osama bin Laden, “Zero Dark Thirty”—whose creators say that they didn’t want to “judge” the interrogation program—appears headed for Oscar nominations. Can torture really be turned into morally neutral entertainment?
“Zero Dark Thirty,” which opens across the country next month, is a pulse-quickening film that spends its first half hour or so depicting a fictionalized version of the Bush Administration’s secret U.S. interrogation program. In reality, the C.I.A.’s program of calibrated cruelty was deemed so illegal, and so immoral, that the director of the F.B.I. withdrew his personnel rather than have them collaborate with it, and the top lawyer at the Pentagon laid his career on the line in an effort to stop a version of the program from spreading to the armed forces. The C.I.A.’s actions convulsed the national-security community, leading to a crisis of conscience inside the top ranks of the U.S. government. The debate echoed the moral seriousness of the political dilemma once posed by slavery, a subject that is brilliantly evoked in Steven Spielberg’s new film, “Lincoln”; by contrast, the director of “Zero Dark Thirty,” Kathryn Bigelow, milks the U.S. torture program for drama while sidestepping the political and ethical debate that it provoked. In her hands, the hunt for bin Laden is essentially a police procedural, devoid of moral context. If she were making a film about slavery in antebellum America, it seems, the story would focus on whether the cotton crops were successful.
After some critics called Bigelow a torture apologist, she defended the fairness and historical accuracy of her movie. “The film doesn’t have an agenda, and it doesn’t judge. I wanted a boots-on-the-ground experience,” she told my New Yorker colleague Dexter Filkins, who interviewed her for a Talk of the Town piece. At a Los Angeles press junket, the film’s screenwriter, Mark Boal, complained that critics were “mischaracterizing” the torture sequences: “I understand that those scenes are graphic and unsparing and unsentimental. But I think that what the film does over the course of two hours is show the complexity of the debate.” His point was that because the film shows multiple approaches to intelligence gathering, of which torture is only one tactic, and because the torture isn’t shown as always producing correct or instant leads, it offers a nuanced answer to the question of whether torture works.
But whether torture “worked” was far from the most important question about its use. I’ve seen the film and, as much as I admired Bigelow’s Oscar-winning picture “The Hurt Locker,” I think that this time, by ignoring the full weight of the dark history of torture, her work falls disturbingly short. To begin with, despite Boal’s contentions, “Zero Dark Thirty” does not capture the complexity of the debate about America’s brutal detention program. It doesn’t include a single scene in which torture is questioned, even though the Bush years were racked by internal strife over just that issue—again, not just among human-rights and civil-liberties lawyers, but inside the F.B.I., the military, the Justice Department, and the C.I.A. itself, which eventually abandoned waterboarding because it feared, correctly, that the act constituted a war crime. None of this ethical drama seems to interest Bigelow.
To establish a baseline of moral awareness, she shows her heroine—a C.I.A. counterterrorism officer called Maya, played by Jessica Chastain—delicately wincing as she hands the more muscled interrogators a pitcher of water with which to waterboard a detainee. Maya is also shown standing mutely by when the detainee is strung up by ropes, stripped naked, and forced to crawl in a dog collar. In reality, when the C.I.A. first subjected a detainee to incarceration in a coffin-size “confinement box,” as is shown in the movie, an F.B.I. agent present at the scene threw a fit, warned the C.I.A. contractor proposing the plan that it was illegal, counterproductive, and reprehensible. The fight went all the way to the top of the Bush Administration. Bigelow airbrushes out this showdown, as she does virtually the entire debate during the Bush years about the treatment of detainees.
The lone anti-torture voice shown in the film is a split-second news clip of President Barack Obama, taken from a “60 Minutes” interview, in which he condemns torture. It flashes on a television screen that’s in the background of a scene set in Pakistan; the movie’s terrorist-hunters, who are holding a meeting, barely look up, letting Obama’s pronouncement pass without comment. “By this point in the film,” as the CNN national-security analyst Peter Bergen wrote recently, “the audience has already seen that the C.I.A. has employed coercive interrogation techniques on an al Qaeda detainee that produced a key lead in the hunt for bin Laden. In the film, Obama’s opposition to torture comes off as wrongheaded and prissy.”
Bigelow has portrayed herself as a reluctant truth-teller. She recently described the film’s torture scenes as “difficult to shoot.” She said, “I wish it was not part of our history. But it was.”
Yet what is so unsettling about “Zero Dark Thirty” is not that it tells this difficult history but, rather, that it distorts it. In addition to excising the moral debate that raged over the interrogation program during the Bush years, the film also seems to accept almost without question that the C.I.A.’s “enhanced interrogation techniques” played a key role in enabling the agency to identify the courier who unwittingly led them to bin Laden. But this claim has been debunked, repeatedly, by reliable sources with access to the facts. As the Washington Post’s Greg Sargent first reported, shortly after bin Laden was killed, Leon Panetta, then the director of the C.I.A., sent a letter to Arizona Senator John McCain, clearly stating that “we first learned about ‘the facilitator / courier’s nom de guerre’ from a detainee not in the C.I.A.’s custody.” Panetta wrote that “no detainee in C.I.A. custody revealed the facilitator / courier’s full true name or specific whereabouts.”
The Senators Dianne Feinstein, a California Democrat and the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, and Carl Levin, a Michigan Democrat and the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, have undermined the film’s version of events further still. “The original lead information had no connection to C.I.A. detainees,” they wrote in their own letter, revealed by the Post last year. Feinstein and Levin noted that a third detainee in C.I.A. custody did provide information on the courier, but, importantly, they stressed that “he did so the day before he was interrogated by the C.I.A. using their coercive interrogation techniques.” In other words, contrary to the plotline of “Zero Dark Thirty,” and contrary to self-serving accounts of C.I.A. officers implicated in the interrogation program, senators with access to the record say that torture did not produce the leads that led to finding and killing bin Laden.
Top senators on the Senate Intelligence Committee and the Senate Armed Services Committee have amplified that position in additional interviews this week. Speaking with the Huffington Post, Feinstein said of the movie’s narrative, “Based on what I know, I don’t believe it is true.” Republicans, too, criticized the movie’s plot. “It’s wrong. It’s wrong. I know for a fact, not because of this report—my own knowledge—that waterboarding, torture, does not lead to reliable information … in any case—not this specific case—in any case,” said John McCain, the top Republican on the Armed Services Committee, who was himself tortured during the Vietnam War. The Huffington Post also quoted South Carolina Senator Lindsey Graham, another Republican member of the Armed Services Committee, saying, “I would argue that it’s not waterboarding that led to bin Laden’s demise. It was a lot of good intelligence-gathering from the Obama and Bush administrations, continuity of effort, holding people at Gitmo, putting the puzzle together over a long period of time—not torture.”
As Scott Shane wrote in the Times on Thursday, so little is publicly known about the C.I.A.’s erstwhile interrogation program that it is nearly impossible for outsiders to assess the facts with total confidence. But for the past three years, Democratic staffers at the Senate Intelligence Committee have been compiling six thousand pages of records related to the secret program, and in doing so they have found little to celebrate. It is hard to understand, then, why the creators of “Zero Dark Thirty” so confidently credit the program.
In addition to providing false advertising for waterboarding, “Zero Dark Thirty” endorses torture in several other subtle ways. At one point, the film’s chief C.I.A. interrogator claims, without being challenged, that “everyone breaks in the end,” adding, “it’s biology.” Maybe that’s what they think in Hollywood, but experts on the history of torture disagree. Indeed, many prisoners have been tortured to death without ever revealing secrets, while many others—including some of those who were brutalized during the Bush years—have fabricated disinformation while being tortured. Some of the disinformation provided under duress during those years, in fact, helped to lead the U.S. into the war in Iraq under false premises.
At another point in the film, an elderly detainee explains that he wants to coöperate with the U.S. because he “doesn’t want to be tortured again.” The clear implication is that brutalization brings breakthroughs. Other ways of getting intelligence, such as bribing sources with expensive race cars, are shown to work, too. But while those scenes last only a few minutes, the torture scenes seem to go on and on.
The filmmakers subtly put their thumb on the pro-torture scale, as Emily Bazelon put it, in another scene, too. A C.I.A. officer complains that there is no way for him to corroborate a lead on bin Laden’s whereabouts now that the detainees in Guantánamo all have lawyers. The suggestion is that if they are given due process rather than black eyes, there will be no way to get the necessary evidence. This is a canard, given that virtually all suspects in the American criminal-justice system have lawyers, yet their cases proceed smoothly and fairly every day.
Bigelow has stressed that she had “no agenda” when she made “Zero Dark Thirty.” Unsurprisingly, though, those who have defended the brutalization of detainees have already begun embracing the film as evidence that they are right. Joe Scarborough, the conservative host of MSNBC’s show “Morning Joe,” said recently that the film’s narrative, “whether you find it repugnant or not,” shows that the C.I.A. program was effective and “led to the couriers, that led, eventually, years later, to the killing of Osama bin Laden.” My guess is that this is just the beginning, and that by the time millions of Americans have seen this movie, they will believe that, as Frank Bruni put it in a recent Times column, “No waterboarding, no bin Laden.”
Perhaps it’s unfair to expect the entertainment industry to convey history accurately. Clearly, the creators of “Zero Dark Thirty” are storytellers who really know how to make a thriller. And it’s true that there are no rules when it comes to fiction. As Boal, the screenwriter, has protested in recent interviews, “It’s a movie, not a documentary.” But in the very first minutes of “Zero Dark Thirty,” before its narrative begins to unspool, the audience is told that the story it is about to see is “based on first-hand accounts of actual events.” If there is an expectation of accuracy, it is set up by the filmmakers themselves. It seems they want it both ways: they want the thrill that comes from revealing what happened behind the scenes as history was being made and the creative license of fiction, which frees them from the responsibility to stick to the truth.
Knowing the real facts—the ones that led the European Court of Human Rights to condemn America for torture this week—I had trouble enjoying the movie. I’ve interviewed Khaled El-Masri, the German citizen whose suit the E.C.H.R. adjudicated. He turned out to be a case of mistaken identity, an innocent car salesman whom the C.I.A. kidnapped and held in a black-site prison for four months, and who was “severely beaten, sodomized, shackled, and hooded.” What Masri lived through was so harrowing that, when I had a cup of coffee with him, a few years ago, he couldn’t describe it to me without crying. Maybe I care too much about all of this to enjoy it with popcorn. But maybe the creators of “Zero Dark Thirty” should care a little bit more.
Read Dexter Filkins on Kathryn Bigelow and Amy Davidson on the Khaled El-Masri case.

"Capitalism will never fail because socialism will always be there to bail it out." - Ralph Nader

  

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AlBundy
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80. "http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/dae/78e/dae78ef4-4d74-43d8-a9..."
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/dae/78e/dae78ef4-4d74-43d8-a9d2-275a5d12f235

-------------------------
“The other dude after me didn’t help my case. It was just like…crazy nigga factory going on.”
Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. “I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,” he says. “Never did.”-- Andre B

  

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Ryan M
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Mon Dec-17-12 01:18 PM

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44. "It's been a few days...."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I really liked it. It's not without it's faults, but I don't agree with the arguments against this film at ALL. It was an honest, gripping portrayal of military and government. As Zoo said, it's not as tightly paced as Argo (again, this is GOING to be compared to it), but it shouldn't be.

I need to see this one again, but it's shot fucking amazingly.

The big raid is heatrocks. But I need to see it again, because the whole time I was just thinking, "How are they gonna handle Bin Laden getting shot?" Now that I know, I can see it again without that looming as I'm watching the 3rd act.

------------------------------

17x NBA Champions

  

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ZooTown74
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45. "I read a critic on Twitter who said that the movie's like Zodiac except"
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

they find and kill the Zodiac Killer in the end

Thought that was an apt comparison

___________________________________________________________________________
Bitch, don't kill my vibe.

  

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Ryan M
Member since Oct 21st 2002
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Mon Dec-17-12 01:43 PM

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46. "That's fair."
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

Though I LOVE Zodiac...a lot more happened in this movie.

But that's fairly accurate.

------------------------------

17x NBA Champions

  

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bwood
Member since Apr 03rd 2006
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Mon Dec-17-12 03:17 PM

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47. "I strongly co-sign that."
In response to Reply # 45


          

Niggas is gonna hate this movie already. I can already see.

------------------------------------------
America from 9:00 on: https://youtu.be/GUwLCQU10KQ

  

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bloocollar
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63. "oh you mean long and boring--"
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yep it is kinda

  

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The DC Sniper
Member since Apr 13th 2010
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Sat Dec-22-12 08:13 PM

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48. "RE: Zero Dark Thirty (Kathryn Bigelow, 2012)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://www.cia.gov/news-information/press-releases-statements/2012-press-releasese-statements/message-from-adcia-zero-dark-thirty.html

Message from the Acting Director: "Zero Dark Thirty"

Statement to Employees from Acting Director Michael Morell: "Zero Dark Thirty"

December 21, 2012


I would not normally comment on a Hollywood film, but I think it important to put Zero Dark Thirty, which deals with one of the most significant achievements in our history, into some context. The film, which premiered this week, addresses the successful hunt for Usama Bin Ladin that was the focus of incredibly dedicated men and women across our Agency, Intelligence Community, and military partners for many years. But in doing so, the film takes significant artistic license, while portraying itself as being historically accurate.

What I want you to know is that Zero Dark Thirty is a dramatization, not a realistic portrayal of the facts. CIA interacted with the filmmakers through our Office of Public Affairs but, as is true with any entertainment project with which we interact, we do not control the final product.

It would not be practical for me to walk through all the fiction in the film, but let me highlight a few aspects that particularly underscore the extent to which the film departs from reality.

First, the hunt for Usama Bin Ladin was a decade-long effort that depended on the selfless commitment of hundreds of officers. The filmmakers attributed the actions of our entire Agency—and the broader Intelligence Community—to just a few individuals. This may make for more compelling entertainment, but it does not reflect the facts. The success of the May 1st 2011 operation was a team effort—and a very large team at that.

Second, the film creates the strong impression that the enhanced interrogation techniques that were part of our former detention and interrogation program were the key to finding Bin Ladin. That impression is false. As we have said before, the truth is that multiple streams of intelligence led CIA analysts to conclude that Bin Ladin was hiding in Abbottabad. Some came from detainees subjected to enhanced techniques, but there were many other sources as well. And, importantly, whether enhanced interrogation techniques were the only timely and effective way to obtain information from those detainees, as the film suggests, is a matter of debate that cannot and never will be definitively resolved.

Third, the film takes considerable liberties in its depiction of CIA personnel and their actions, including some who died while serving our country. We cannot allow a Hollywood film to cloud our memory of them.

Commentators will have much to say about this film in the weeks ahead. Through it all, I want you to remember that Zero Dark Thirty is not a documentary. What you should also remember is that the Bin Ladin operation was a landmark achievement by our country, by our military, by our Intelligence Community, and by our Agency.

Michael Morell

"Capitalism will never fail because socialism will always be there to bail it out." - Ralph Nader

  

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ZooTown74
Member since May 29th 2002
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Sat Dec-22-12 10:56 PM

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49. ""What I want you to know is that Zero Dark Thirty is a dramatization,"
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

not a realistic portrayal of the facts."

___________________________________________________________________________
Bitch, don't kill my vibe.

  

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Frank Longo
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Sat Dec-22-12 11:52 PM

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50. "I mean, I see WHY they're reacting the way they are."
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

An extremely well-made film that is "based on facts" (the same way Argo is, etc) depicts the CIA as being pro-torture. This film is winning awards, will win Oscars, and will likely do numbers.

They're just doing PR clean-up: a counter-attack before public perception becomes "Americans are pro-torture!"

(Not like Americans have EVER done anything in REAL life to depict us as pro-torture before! lol)

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ZooTown74
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51. "No doubt nm"
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

___________________________________________________________________________
Bitch, don't kill my vibe.

  

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navajo joe
Member since Apr 13th 2005
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Sun Dec-23-12 12:24 AM

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52. "This reminds me of when Hoover required a disclaimer on 'Dillinger'"
In response to Reply # 48


          

which is read at the end of the closing credits

-------------------------------

A lot of you players ain't okay.

We would have been better off with an okaycivics board instead of an okayactivist board

  

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osu_no_1
Member since Feb 26th 2003
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53. "for those that actually saw it: the modified stealth black hawk"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

did they talk much about it or show it? what did it look like?

did they explain why it crashed in the courtyard?

did they show the botched attempt at its destruction?

  

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Frank Longo
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54. "^^^ spoilers in that post for those that haven't read about the mission"
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

>did they talk much about it or show it? what did it look
>like?

They showed it. Looked like a more angular pitch black chopper.

>did they explain why it crashed in the courtyard?

Yes.

>did they show the botched attempt at its destruction?

Yes.

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osu_no_1
Member since Feb 26th 2003
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Sun Dec-23-12 03:17 PM

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55. "sorry. didn't realize it might have been potential spoilers"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

i've always been into books by tom clancy, dale brown. etc, so naturally i read as much as possible about this operation when it happened.

i didn't read no easy day yet, but i was wondering about this part. it's always been interesting to me that our military has this whole secret arsenal that we only get a glimpse of when they make a mistake.

i wondered about how critical stealth was to this mission and whether it was necessary that these helicopters were used, or if it was just like "let's try out our cool new toys"

  

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Frank Longo
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56. "To talk about it without spoiling it for you..."
In response to Reply # 55


  

          

... it seems that in particular the quiet nature of these vehicles made them ideal for this mission. Additionally since Pakistan likely wouldn't have approved this type of raid on the government level, avoiding their radar seemed paramount as well.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
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LA2Philly
Member since Oct 18th 2004
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Fri Dec-28-12 06:40 AM

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57. "Middle was 30 mins too long & the attachment to the protag was so forced"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Dec-28-12 06:49 AM by LA2Philly

  

          

The first 30 and final 45 were excellent....but good grief, did the final 30 mins or so of investigative portion really really drag. We knew where it was headed and we knew the lead they had....and yet, the film just kept on the snails pace. I completely understand wanting to show the background but there is still a balance you have to maintain...and this film just got so stagnant for about 30 mins. I'm very very patient but even I started looking at my watch. I compare the editing and pacing to another dramatic thriller from this year in Argo and it's not even close in how the latter completely outclasses zero dark thirty.

Moving on to my second issue...the film constantly and constantly hit us over the head with trying to create an attachment to Jessica Chastain's character, it got really bloody annoying. Constantly cutting to her reaction shots to bring the focus back onto her, all the repetitive lines about how feisty or whatever she was, the cutaways to people smirking regarding her...we fucking get it, she was the driving force behind it. I had zero attachment to her and felt like in a movie that is 160 mins, the movie would have been far better paced and enjoyable if it just focused on the story rather than spending time on trying to create an emotional resonance w the protagonist when 99% of people already have an emotional resonance with the actual objective of the story.

Performances were solid, albeit Jessica Chastain's was uneven to me. Maybe it was because I felt like the emotions weren't earned but many of her reaction and emotion scenes just didn't feel natural.

All in all...has it's moments and interesting to see the lead up and actual mission to take down UBL but the pacing along with trying to force feed a protagonist down the audiences throat rather than focusing elsewhere took off a lot of luster for me. Just really dragged and wasted minutes on unneccessary items.

Edit: One last thing and this almost made me audibly guffaw in my seat. You're telling me one dude saying he had buried the courier was enough proof to shut that avenue down? The entire movie previous to that we had heard how dudes could be lying, need confirmation, etc...and now that one cat says it, it must mean it's true? Are you kidding me

---------------------------------
<--The drought is over

"have fun reveling in your pettiness tho" (C) Dula summing up 98% of OKS

"I didnt finish a damn thing...matter of fact I jerked off after she left."
-Kobe speaking to investigators

L D E A

  

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will_5198
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Sat Jan-05-13 07:00 AM

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58. "belabored and all, the middle was my favorite"
In response to Reply # 57


          

we all know the beginning and end of the story, but the draw (for me) was to see how they adapted a multi-year investigation onto the screen. I thought the pace worked; there were a lot of moving parts and the waiting game with the decision makers was necessary.

I do agree about Chastain's characterization though...to a degree. some of her scenes were borderline comical, as if she was a vengeful red-haired Seagal ("what are you gonna do?" / "smoke them all.").

more interesting was the cost of her obsession. bin Laden had consumed her entire adult life, even taking the few slight relationships she had time to build along the way. was the single tear for the enormity of bin Laden's death? or because her life's work had just flashed in front of her eyes, leaving nothing but a corpse as triumph? in a plane to anywhere, with nowhere to go. at least suicide bombers have an exit plan for their investment in the terrorism war.

*shrug* at the pro-torture debate. lots of nasty things happen in wars, because the act itself is about the ugliest ritual we humans have. "speeding tickets at the Indy 500" (c). oh, and bin Laden must've been the deepest sleeper ever.

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bloocollar
Member since Aug 14th 2008
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Sat Jan-05-13 01:36 PM

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59. "saw it last night--"
In response to Reply # 0


          

a bit drawn out and the protagonist was a bit unlikable at times

all in all it was a solid flick

  

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jigga
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Sat Jan-05-13 02:55 PM

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60. "Jason Clarke stole it"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Seemed like Bigs & Boal had to have him disappear for awhile to put the focus back on Chast. & I love me some Chast but I think she might've been better in The Debt.

Started to drag a bit once Clarke went back to Washington. Picked up again once Mark Strong finally appeared.

Sorta seemed like a long ass ep of Homeland but overall I dug it.

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Sat Jan-05-13 03:31 PM

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61. "This is supposed to be award worthy?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

It was a pretty good movie and all, but I didn't see anything special. Below average acting, decent story (although kind of tedious to keep track of all her leads), and some good action, but nothing deserving of award consideration.

Take the Bin Laden aspect out of the equation and no one would even care about this movie

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bloocollar
Member since Aug 14th 2008
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Sat Jan-05-13 05:07 PM

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62. "yeah im not really understanding--"
In response to Reply # 61


          

all the award talk

i hope this isnt a case of "lets give an award to James Camron's ex wife"

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
86672 posts
Tue Jan-08-13 11:30 AM

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69. "Kinda doubt it, since, y'know, they already did."
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

  

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blueeclipse
Member since Apr 12th 2009
1855 posts
Mon Jan-07-13 02:31 PM

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64. "This felt like....."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

A much more legitimate episode of Homeland.

  

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haj20
Member since Nov 21st 2002
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Sun Jan-13-13 02:02 AM

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86. "It felt like a bad episode of Homeland to me. "
In response to Reply # 64


          

With bad acting.

_________________________

  

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Basaglia
Member since Nov 30th 2004
49463 posts
Mon Jan-07-13 06:31 PM

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65. "not nearly as good as i thought it'd be..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

and by that i simply mean i thought it would be the clear cut best picture of the year...it's not. it's just in the running.

maybe the impossible will cyse me. i dunno. i just can't give the crown to anyone right now.

____________________________________________________


Steph: I was just fooling about

Kyrie: I wasn't.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8OWNspU_yE

  

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Ryan M
Member since Oct 21st 2002
43744 posts
Mon Jan-07-13 06:37 PM

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67. "The Impossible will not."
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

It's good. It's just you'll wish there was more to it.

The tsunami shit is incredible though.

------------------------------

17x NBA Champions

  

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ZooTown74
Member since May 29th 2002
43582 posts
Tue Jan-08-13 11:25 AM

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68. "Bigelow and Boal clap back at this torture controversy shit (swipe)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

hollywoodreporter.com:

>Kathryn Bigelow, Mark Boal Fire Back at 'Zero Dark Thirty' Investigation and Torture Debate

9:30 PM PST 1/7/2013 by Jordan Zakarin

As they received trophies in New York City, Kathryn Bigelow and Mark Boal sent a warning shot directed squarely at Washington, DC.

The director and screenwriter of Zero Dark Thirty accepted the best director and best picture awards at Monday night's New York Film Critics Circle Awards and used the opportunity onstage to address simmering controversies: the debate over their film's use of torture, as well as the impending Senate investigation into their sources in crafting the movie about the hunt for Osama bin Laden.

"I thankfully want to say that I’m standing in a room of people who understand that depiction is not endorsement, and if it was, no artist could ever portray inhumane practices; no author could ever write about them; and no filmmaker could ever delve into the knotty subjects of our time," Bigelow said to applause from the press and peers assembled at the Crimson Club in Manhattan.

Many -- including Senate Intelligence Committee Chair Dianne Feinstein and Arizona Senator John McCain -- have accused the film of endorsing the use of torture due to its graphic depiction of the waterboarding, sexual humiliation and other "enhanced interrogation" techniques done to a detainee. Debate over whether the techniques are depicted as helping the CIA obtain valuable information in the hunt for bin Laden has in some ways overshadowed the rest of the film, which has received near-universal praise.

Boal, in accepting the best picture award, gave a more full-throated defense of the film, while also pulling in an even more current political headline.

"There’s been a lot written about this movie; some of it has popped off the entertainment page to the news page. And from time to time, some of you might have wondered if we would have liked to comment on some of that coverage, and the answer is yes," he said, standing defiantly at the podium.

"Let me just say this: there was a very interesting story on the front page of the New York Times today by Scott Shane, about a CIA agent who is now facing jail time for talking to a reporter about waterboarding," he explained, referencing the story of John Kiriaku, an ex-CIA operative who was sentenced to 30 months in prison for disclosing the name of a covert CIA agent's name to a journalist. Kiriaku publicly discussed torture on television and was a source for many other journalists.

"This gentleman is going to jail for that. And all I can say is that I read that story very closely. It sort of reminds me of what somebody else said when they were running for president, which is, ‘If this shit was happening to somebody else, it would be very interesting. For us, it’s quite serious," Boal continued, a nod at the pending Senate investigation into whether the CIA improperly gave him classified information to assist in the making of the film.

"But nevertheless, I stand here tonight being extremely proud of the film we made... In case anyone is asking, we stand by the film," he added, throwing down a gauntlet. "I think at the end of the day, we made a film that allows us to look back at the past in a way that gives us a more clear-sighted appraisal of the future."

The Oscar-winning screenwriter, however, was reluctant to discuss the investigation.

"You'd have to ask them," he told The Hollywood Reporter, when asked about the status of the probe called for by Feinstein. "I think they have a job to do, and it’s very different from my job."

He did say, though, that he thinks that it should be clear that Zero Dark Thirty is inspired by a true story, not a work of investigative journalism.

"It’s a movie. I’ve been saying from the beginning it’s a movie. That shouldn’t be too confusing," he quipped. "It’s in cinemas, and if it’s not totally obvious, a CIA agent wasn’t really an Australian (Jason Clarke) that was on a lot of TV shows, and Jessica Chastain isn’t really a CIA agent; she’s a very talented actress. But I think most American audiences understand that."

_______________________________________________________________________________________
Everybody knows that the best way to Attack The Media Status Quo™ is... by posting on a message board!

  

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handle
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Tue Jan-08-13 03:43 PM

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70. "The US was (and is) pro-torture"
In response to Reply # 68


          

And these right wings nuts like Begolow and Robert Cochran, Joel Surnow from 24 are too.

Here's an idea: why not have torturing someone lead to bad information instead of leading to good information? (Because that's what it does in real life.)

I get it, she's only in favor of torture if you pirate her film.

  

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gumz
Member since Jan 09th 2005
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Wed Jan-09-13 11:22 PM

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71. "i really enjoyed this film but this post is turning into the Django post"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

so that's about all i'll contribute to it.

http://www.youtube.com/user/gumzization
twitter: @BrosefMalone

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Fri Jan-11-13 05:36 AM

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72. "holy crap this movie was boring."
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Jan-11-13 06:02 AM by denny

          

Concerning the political side...it very clearly suggests that torture methods were necessary in finding Bin Laden. I don't know enough to have an opinion whether that assertion is true. But the assertion is there.

And is there really any POINT to this movie other than it's making that assertion? Cause there is nothing else even worth thinking about imo. It's not 'morally ambiguous'. It advocates the use of torture to gain intelligence. That stance is very clear to me.

Goddamn the score was horrible. I've had my fill of timpanies with long, low cello notes and out-of-place, reverbed arabic singing overtop.

  

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The Analyst
Member since Sep 22nd 2007
4621 posts
Fri Jan-11-13 11:11 AM

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73. "To me, Maya's motivations were the most intersting part..."
In response to Reply # 72
Fri Jan-11-13 11:13 AM by The Analyst

  

          

Like someone said above, she wasn't really driven by patriotism or some commitment to getting "justice" for 9/11 - she was just obsessed with finding Bin Laden EVEN IF (and this is important part) she did it at the expense of her agency's overall goal, which was to prevent additional attacks on the U.S.

She obviously felt by finding Bin Laden that she was in fact making the U.S. safer, but the scene where Kyle Chandler explains that the would-be car-bomber in Time Square had nothing to do with Bin Laden and only failed because of his own ineptitude sort of disputes that assumption.

The scene that reflected most negatively on her in my mind was the one where she said she was 100% sure Bin Laden was in the house. There was literally no way to be 100% sure he was there. Clarke's character said he was virtually certain a high-level target was there but couldn't be more than 60% confident it was Bin Laden - that was absolutely the right analysis. Just because her prediction turned out to be right doesn't really mean anything. It was essentially a lucky educated guess.

That kind of bullheaded confidence (bordering on arrogance) - even in the absence of cold, hard facts - has been the problem with American foreign policy for decades.

What's debatable I guess is whether or not the movie is trying to make that point, or whether it's actually trying to present Chastain as this relentless, heroic figure who defied the odds and scored the Americans the ultimate victory.

I think because of the way Bigelow ended the movie, that's up for interpretation. She didn't really present it as a "spiking the football" moment or some sort of major cause for celebration.

All that said, I wasn't as enamored by this as some people. I thought it was well-done, but I wouldn't rank it in my top 5 of the year...

----

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Sat Jan-12-13 03:57 AM

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77. "RE: To me, Maya's motivations were the most intersting part..."
In response to Reply # 73
Sat Jan-12-13 03:58 AM by denny

          

I'll concede the point that there is a feminist aspect of the film that's also worth reflecting upon. Though I'd suggest that element of the movie mostly distracts from it's real agenda of advocating torture. The stance the film takes is not something I'd dismiss immediately. I'm open-minded to the use of torture in intelligence gathering. I definitely lean towards John Mccain's moral argument against it. And Obama's argument has been more pragmatic than Mccain's....that torture techniques CREATE more terrorism than they prevent. But I'm not completely dismissive of the argument made in this movie. I'd just like people to be clear on what that argument is.

Maya's 'bullheaded confidence' is undoubtedly the hero in this movie. The '60% certainty' element is presented as the roadblock to 'getting the job done'. If you think the self-assured, bull-headed approach to foreign policy has been a problem for America than I'm confused as to why you'd defend this movie. Put simply, the movie disagrees with you. And I DON'T think the movie is 'up for interpretation' in this regard. It's agenda is plain to see. It's even critical of the reluctance of American intel to act sooner than it did....30 days, 60 days, 99 days, 100 days, all scribbled on the office wall. I think it's clear that the movie advocates a much more aggressive foreign policy than the one Obama talks about. One that doesn't hesitate...one that isn't cautious...one that doesn't pussy-foot around. And Chastain's 100% certainty is undoubtedly presented as the hero here.

The screenplay presents Osama's courier as the key to finding him. And in the screenplay, the courier was initially identified and became a person of interest via torture methods of prisoners. There seems to be debate whether or not that is a true account. But there should be no debate that this is what the film depicts. The movie presents torture as a necessary, albeit gruesome method of attaining intel. A reasonable perspective...but like 'The Hurt Locker'...it's hawkish and republican in nature.


  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
86672 posts
Fri Jan-11-13 01:25 PM

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75. "There's a difference between advocacy and journalism."
In response to Reply # 72


  

          

Yes, the film is meant as entertainment and it's not a strict account of what happened with Bin Laden. It combines characters, dramatizes events, etc.

But the CIA has used torture. In the past, they've used it with some frequency. And I guarantee you there are plenty of CIA employees that behind closed doors firmly believe that it gets results.

I think the torture scenes make us look shitty, like a player in a fucked up game with dirty-ass hands. Which is exactly what we've been over the years.

Pro-torture implies that after a torture scene, they leave the cage, relieved that they got the information they need, as the music swells to a crescendo. They do get some information from someone they have tortured in the past (not in an active torture scene), they do get confirmation from other people being tortured... and then they realize later that much of that was misinformation due to mistaken identity. And years and years pass. It's not a fix-all that saves the day for America.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Sat Jan-12-13 04:35 AM

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78. "Disagreed."
In response to Reply # 75
Sat Jan-12-13 04:40 AM by denny

          

The film shows the benefits of a policy of torture. Americans learned about Osama's courier via torture methods and subsequently found him. That's clear.

Where is the counter-point?

There IS a scene wherein the male CIA agent says he's 'burned out' by torturing people and wants to return to a normal life. Is the film suggesting that one of the 'downsides' to torture is that it's emotionally unpleasant for the torturer? Where are the arguments against torture in the movie?

A few approaches:

It's ungodly.

It's counter-productive...it creates more terrorism than it prevents.

It leads to false intel.

There is no consideration of those commonly accepted talking points in this film. Rendering it completely UNAMBIGUOUS. In fact, the last point...the torture leads to false intelligence....IS addressed in the movie and presented as a falsehood. Some of Maya's detractors suggest that her hunch is a product of false testimony from prisoners just trying to stop the pain....and they are presented as WRONG.

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
86672 posts
Sat Jan-12-13 07:18 PM

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84. "See, that counter was way more evident to me than to you."
In response to Reply # 78


  

          


>A few approaches:
>
>It's ungodly.

There are plenty of scenes in which Chastain shows masked disgust, especially towards the beginning. She hasn't gotten her hands dirty yet. Then she makes the choice when the guy asks her to help him, the same man who she winced at seeing tortured at first... and she tells him to be truthful. She's now complicit. I thought that was clear.

Also, not directly to torture but definitely directly to the violence, the raid at the end has no flag-waving or woo-hoos. It's actually a quiet, tonally dark moment.

Finally, the scene you mentioned when Jason Clarke says he's burned out... he also mentions seeing the other torturers every day as part of it. He sees himself when he sees others do it, and it makes him want out, because, yes, it's ungodly.

>It's counter-productive...it creates more terrorism than it
>prevents.

We see the government get sued. We see the pursuit of lines of questioning that distract us from current security issues, which leads to acts of terrorism. We see giant Middle Eastern protests, and we see that those known to be torturers become targets themselves. So yes, we do see that.

>It leads to false intel.

We DEFINITELY SEE THIS! lol, a giant plot point is that they were pursuing something that they got from tortured people that was wrong. They misidentified Abu Ahmed. That's absolutely a clear point.

>There is no consideration of those commonly accepted talking
>points in this film. Rendering it completely UNAMBIGUOUS. In
>fact, the last point...the torture leads to false
>intelligence....IS addressed in the movie and presented as a
>falsehood. Some of Maya's detractors suggest that her hunch
>is a product of false testimony from prisoners just trying to
>stop the pain....and they are presented as WRONG.

See above. They bring that up, but the final point, the one that leads to the about-face in the investigation that leads to Bin Laden's compound, comes from realizing that intel they got from tortured people was inaccurate.

They never spell any of this out or speechify it, but it's all there in the details.

I think you need to see the movie again. Because I promise, all of that stuff that you want is there. It's just presented alongside the other side of the coin as well, portraying both sides, going back to my "journalism not advocacy" point.

My movies: http://russellhainline.com
My movie reviews: https://letterboxd.com/RussellHFilm/
My beer TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thebeertravelguide

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Thu Jan-17-13 05:25 AM

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93. "RE: See, that counter was way more evident to me than to you."
In response to Reply # 84
Thu Jan-17-13 05:31 AM by denny

          

>There are plenty of scenes in which Chastain shows masked
>disgust, especially towards the beginning. She hasn't gotten
>her hands dirty yet. Then she makes the choice when the guy
>asks her to help him, the same man who she winced at seeing
>tortured at first... and she tells him to be truthful. She's
>now complicit. I thought that was clear.

That only serves to create sympathy for the torturer. Not the person getting tortured. I never said that this movie presents 'torture' as being an 'enjoyable practise'. It presents torture as an unpleasant yet necessary means to accomplish justified foreign policy. The fact that the torturers 'wince' while they do it certainly does not represent any viewpoint that stands against torture. Even people who argue that torture is a justifiable practise wouldn't suggest that it is enjoyable to do. So the fact that the torture is presented as 'unpleasant' for the torturer in no way serves as a counter-point to the advocation in this film.

>Also, not directly to torture but definitely directly to the
>violence, the raid at the end has no flag-waving or woo-hoos.
>It's actually a quiet, tonally dark moment.

Yah...that's complete bullshit. Sorry. People wanted to see Bin Laden's compound invaded and Bin Laden shot. It's a perverse indulgence with no other function.

>Finally, the scene you mentioned when Jason Clarke says he's
>burned out... he also mentions seeing the other torturers
>every day as part of it. He sees himself when he sees others
>do it, and it makes him want out, because, yes, it's ungodly.

No...it's not presented as 'ungodly' in Clarke's character. It's presented as a hardship that Clarke (and later, Chastain) must endure in order to 'get the job done'. The film evokes sympathy for the torturers...not the people getting tortured.

In response to the suggestion that the movie fails to recognize the point that torture creates more terrorism than it prevents...you wrote:

>We see the government get sued. We see the pursuit of lines of
>questioning that distract us from current security issues,
>which leads to acts of terrorism. We see giant Middle Eastern
>protests, and we see that those known to be torturers become
>targets themselves. So yes, we do see that.

Any middle eastern protests depicted in the film are not attributed to a policy of torture by American military. The anger towards America is without explanation.....and treated as completely irrational. I'd argue that Affleck's 'Argo' actually provides a context for Iranian anger towards the states. I'm referring to the beginning montage of 'Argo'....and a character that says 'My son was murdered by the Shah' while they visit the bizarre. ZD30 does NOT do the same for Palestine or Afghanistan. I request ONE instance that attempts to provide context for why people in that region might be justifiably angry at the USA in ZD30.


>>It leads to false intel.
>
>We DEFINITELY SEE THIS! lol, a giant plot point is that they
>were pursuing something that they got from tortured people
>that was wrong. They misidentified Abu Ahmed. That's
>absolutely a clear point.

That is only because Osama's courier was given multiple names/identities to people in that infrastructure. In the movie....the tortured prisoners THINK they are giving the correct information even though they are not. The argument that torture leads to false intel suggests that prisoners will do ANYTHING to stop the pain. ie They will give false info. The example you gave, the prisoners THINK they are giving the correct information.

>See above. They bring that up, but the final point, the one
>that leads to the about-face in the investigation that leads
>to Bin Laden's compound, comes from realizing that intel they
>got from tortured people was inaccurate.

Again, to be clear....the critique that torture leads to false intel holds that prisoners will give FALSE info to stop from being tortured. But the movie depicts the torture victims as giving WHAT THEY THINK is the proper info. So the movie's explanation is that torture did not 'work perfectly' because Al Queda does not properly inform their operatives. Not because victims of torture will say anything, even false info, to stop the pain. Two very different things....cause if the prisoners are telling what they 'think' is the truth, than torture works. Yah?


>I think you need to see the movie again. Because I promise,
>all of that stuff that you want is there. It's just presented
>alongside the other side of the coin as well, portraying both
>sides, going back to my "journalism not advocacy" point.

I WAS somewhat biased. I thought Hurt Locker was a racist movie and I had that preconception going in. Bigelow is a hawk and racist against arab people imo.

  

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Midtown Records
Member since Sep 29th 2006
4776 posts
Fri Jan-11-13 12:22 PM

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74. "Am I the only one here who..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

totally sees through the propaganda?

__________

Lamentations 3:26
It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Sat Jan-12-13 05:29 AM

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81. "Hurt Locker and ZD30 are racist."
In response to Reply # 74


          

Bigelow fetishes brown children, demonizes brown adults and glorifies Americans.

A bomb surgically-planted inside a little boy's body? When did Dr No become an 'islamist'? That shit was disgusting and racist and completely stupid. People feeling 'tension' from that stupid racist movie is hilarious to me.

And ZD30 is racist too. Brown people don't have feelings.

  

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araQual
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Mon Jan-21-13 09:38 PM

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97. "neope. and ykno wats worse...?"
In response to Reply # 74


  

          

...intelligent ppl gathering together on a msg board to discuss a clearly untrue propaganda account of reality and not even address that it is, in fact, an untrue propaganda account of reality. u bring that up n its like "dude, its just a movie!" lol. nah...shit stinks.

i think its bout time 'seeing thru the veil' become part of PTPs discussion.

V.

---
http://confessionsofacurlymind.com
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Innocent Criminal
Member since May 03rd 2003
14586 posts
Fri Jan-11-13 06:41 PM

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76. "This would make more money marketed as a Bert Macklin movie."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

________________________________
There are dozens of us! Dozens!

  

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xbenzive
Charter member
3183 posts
Sat Jan-12-13 11:16 AM

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82. "Saw it last night. "
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Jan-12-13 11:17 AM by xbenzive

          

Loved it. All politics aside, thought everything was great. Not sure if it would make my own personal top 10 but I can see why it's getting all it's accolades.

Please, someone, give Jason Clarke a show again. I can watch him do anything. I miss the The Chicago Code.

  

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benny
Member since Jan 15th 2003
8435 posts
Sat Jan-12-13 04:00 PM

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83. "it was good, was expecting more perhaps"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

it didn't seem too long to me (and I'm usually the 1st to whine about movie length) because I thought it really showed the breadth and frustration of the search for UBL. The raid was pretty well done too, even having read No Easy Day I was on the edge of my seat. It did seem lame though that they could not confirm UBL's identity at the house, just so they could add the scene with Chastain identifying him. I loved the last scene in the cargo plane.
This wasn't that much better than Argo as far as race matters go, but it felt very close to what is described in No Easy Day. These people have a mission to do, and they are not in those countries to make friends/understand the culture on a personal level (though I'm sure they understand it perfectly on an intellectual one)

Jason Clarke is great, he's had a good year and I hope he has a lot more on his plate in '13. Chastain was good, won't be mad if she wins the gold.

Oh and they played the trailer for A Place Beyond The Pines before the movie and booooyyyyy am I ready to see that flick asap. Looks like some more possible greatness from Cianfrance.

------------------------------
For the record, my teams:
MLB: Mets / Soccer: PSG
NCAA BB: Arizona / NCAA FB: Michigan
NBA: Spurs / NFL: Jets

  

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haj20
Member since Nov 21st 2002
16195 posts
Sun Jan-13-13 01:52 AM

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85. "Not sure how it was Oscar worthy. The redhead can't act. "
In response to Reply # 0


          

She was horrible and the movie was just okay.

_________________________

  

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haj20
Member since Nov 21st 2002
16195 posts
Sun Jan-13-13 03:30 AM

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87. "The torture wasn't an issue to me as much as (Spoiler?)"
In response to Reply # 0


          

shooting everything in sight in a house full of women and children when there wasn't enough intelligence to confirm that Bin Laden was actually in there. It was a bit disturbing to me.

_________________________

  

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las raises
Member since Aug 31st 2002
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Mon Jan-14-13 12:06 AM

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88. "I watched the seal team 6 movie and felt like that movie"
In response to Reply # 87


  

          

Gave more insight than ZD30, I dont see the oscar craze for this either

-----------------------------------------------------------------

  

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haj20
Member since Nov 21st 2002
16195 posts
Mon Jan-14-13 01:13 AM

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89. "People voting with their hearts. "
In response to Reply # 88


          

_________________________

  

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B9
Charter member
43124 posts
Mon Jan-14-13 11:40 AM

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90. "Good film, but weird disconnect between first 2 hours and last 30 min"
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I get it, what it was all leading up to, but something was lost in the transition between the CIA making the case to raid the house and the actual carrying out of the plan. I think the flaw is somewhere in how Jason Clarke's character rolled from a field goon to an office yes man. Not enough exposition in that scene for me, especially how close Chastain and he got to be before he left the field.

And would she really be monitoring the Pakistani radio noise during the actual op? Would/were there CIA members actually involved in the raid as in the film?

  

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The DC Sniper
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Wed Jan-16-13 07:21 PM

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91. "RE: Zero Dark Thirty (Kathryn Bigelow, 2012)"
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http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/zero-dark-thirty-is-osama-bin-ladens-last-victory-over-america-20130116

'Zero Dark Thirty' Is Osama bin Laden's Last Victory Over America

I went to see Zero Dark Thirty this weekend with great anticipation. I've always loved Kathryn Bigelow's movies – I'm a fan to an almost embarrassing degree. Like most people I liked the Busey-Keanu surf-and-bromance film Point Break, but I also loved the The Weight of Water, as well as Strange Days, The Widowmaker… Bigelow's movies are visually engrossing, innovative and smart, and I couldn't wait to see what she did with a real-life subject matter that had the potential to be both the greatest detective story and the greatest action-movie plot of all time.

So I went to see the movie and like most people I know who watched it, I was blown away. On a pure whodunit level, the bulk of the film was an unbelievably compelling thriller, and purely on the level of action cinematography, the final scene – with all its real-world drama and consequence, plus the unique fact the movie revealed secrets about one of the shadowiest, most highly-classified operations ever – was about as pulse-pounding and exciting as movies get.

The way Bigelow shot that last sequence in Abbotabad, constantly declining to Michael-Bay-ize the action sequences with goofball explosions and kung-fu battles, and not glossing over the brutality or the mission's mistakes (God, what a screw-up to crash that helicopter!), it was ingenious. For however long it lasted, you felt exactly how long 14 or 15 minutes can be, with so much on the line, crowds beginning to form, Pakistani jets on the way.

And when they dragged the big prize with its blood-soaked beard back into the copter and flew off, well – the triumph the characters felt at that moment exploded into the theater, there were gasps and patriotic applause, and even I got caught up in it. The only thing I can compare it to was seeing Rocky or Star Wars in theaters as a kid, the way the crowds went wild over the ass-kicking ending.

On the way home I felt buzzed and high, like one always does after seeing a great film, but then various things that had bothered me about the movie started to float to the surface.

Apart from the queasiness from the opening "enhanced interrogation" scene (more on that in a minute), there was the letdown purely on the detective-movie fanboy level I got from the fact that the "heroes" got their key information from torture. It was like watching a fishing show where the host throws dynamite in the lake to get the bass. In all the detective films and books I grew up watching and reading, the meathead cop who uses the third degree is always the villain – or if not the bad guy exactly, the sap, the klutz, who screws things up by swinging a fist when just talking would have worked fine.

In classic detective tales, the thug interrogator is even sometimes introduced as a parallel character to the hero, to show how things aren't done – think the Victory Motel scenes in L.A. Confidential, or the cops in Raymond Chandler's novels. Take the character of Captain Gregorius in The Long Goodbye, who gets tough with Marlowe when he didn't need to, trying to get him to fink on his friend in a murder investigation. Chandler couldn't have known how much a passage from his great P.I. novel would have relevance to the War on Terror decades later:

Gregorius bared his teeth at me. They needed cleaning – badly. "Let's have the exit line, chum."

"Yes, sir," I said politely. "You probably didn't intend it, but you've done me a favor. With an assist from Detective Dayton. You've solved a problem for me. No man likes to betray a friend but I wouldn't betray an enemy into your hands. You're not only a gorilla, you're an incompetent. You don't know how to operate a simple investigation. I was balanced on a knife edge and you could have swung me either way. But you had to abuse me, throw coffee in my face, and use your fists on me when I was in a spot where all I could do was take it. From now on I wouldn't tell you the time by the clock on your own wall."

For some strange reason he sat there perfectly still and let me say it. Then he grinned. "You're just a little old cop-hater, friend. That's all you are, shamus, just a little old cop-hater."

"There are places where cops are not hated, Captain. But in those places you wouldn't be a cop."

Back to the "enhanced interrogation" in the first scene: conducted by chameleonic Australian actor Jason Clarke's "Dan" character while Oscar nominee Jessica Chastain's Maya character looks on, it's shocking, horrific, disgusting, and it was obviously supposed to be all of those things.

By graphically depicting the sexual humiliation ("You don't mind if my female colleague sees your junk?" Clarke says, ripping the suspect's pants down as he hangs by his wrists), the walking around of suspects in dog-collars Lynndie-England-style, the putting of people in boxes, the waterboarding and the flat-out punching in the face (which Maya resorts to later, with help from another interrogator), Bigelow made it clear that she wasn't making any half-assed Rumsfeldian claim that what went on after 9/11, in thousands of grimy rooms around the world with thousands if not tens of thousands of people, somehow wasn't torture.

No, Bigelow wrapped her arms all the way around that subject, which makes sense now. She has since been praised, almost excessively, for being brave enough to "tell the truth" about torture in Zero Dark Thirty. As Manohla Dargis of the New York Times put it:

However unprovable the effectiveness of these interrogations, they did take place. To omit them from "Zero Dark Thirty" would have been a reprehensible act of moral cowardice.

Here's my question: if it would have been dishonest to leave torture out of the film entirely, how is it not dishonest to leave out how generally ineffective it was, how morally corrupting, how totally it enraged the entire Arab world, how often we used it on people we knew little to nothing about, how often it resulted in deaths, or a hundred other facts? Bigelow put it in, which was "honest," but it seems an eerie coincidence that she was "honest" about torture in pretty much exactly the way a CIA interrogator would have told the story, without including much else.

There's no way to watch Zero Dark Thirty without seeing it as a movie about how torture helped us catch Osama bin Laden. That's why I was blown away when I read this morning that Bigelow is now going with a line that "depiction is not endorsement," that simply showing torture does not amount to publicly approving of it.

If Bigelow really means that, I have a rhetorical question for her: Are audiences not supposed to cheer at the end of the film, when we get bin Laden? They cheered in the theater where I watched it. And is Maya a good character or a bad character? Did she cross some dark line in victory like Michael Corrleone, did she lose her moral self and her humanity chasing her goal like Captain Ahab, or is she just a modern-day Sherlock Holmes (or, hell, John McClane) getting his man in the end?

It seemed to me more the latter than anything else. I barely caught a whiff of a "moral journey/descent" storyline in this film – the closest they came to that was in the first scene, where Maya looks a little grossed out by Clarke's methods. A few minutes later, though, she's all street and everything, wearing a hijab and getting some henchman to throw fists at her suspects on command. She went from queasy to hardass in about ten seconds and we didn't linger on the transformation at all.

Bigelow is such a great storyteller that she has to know, deep inside, that the "depiction is not endorsement" line doesn't wash. You want audiences gripped to the screen, you've gotta give them something to root for, or against. This was definitely not a movie about two vicious and murderous groups of people killing and torturing each other in an endless cycle of increasingly brainless revenge. And this was not a movie about how America lost its values en route to a great strategic victory.

No, this was a straight-up "hero catches bad guys" movie, and the idea that audiences weren't supposed to identify with Maya the torturer is ludicrous. Are we really to believe that viewers aren't supposed to be shimmering in anticipation for her at the end, as she paces back and forth with set-fans whooshing back her beautiful red hair, waiting for her copter to come in? They might as well have put a cape and a Wonder Woman costume on her, that's how subtle that was.

Bigelow and screenwriter Mark Boal clearly spent a lot of time with sources in the CIA who were peddling a version of history where the "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques" program, though distasteful, scored us the big prize in the end.

In Oscar-winning director Alex Gibney's agonizing and affecting documentary about EIT called Taxi to the Dark Side, he talks about the phenomenon of "force drift" in torture, when interrogators start using harsher methods when the permitted ones don't work. Well, in journalism, what happened with Boal and Bigelow is what you might call "access drift" – when you really, really love the drama of the story you're hearing, you start leaning in the direction of your sources even if the truth doesn't quite cooperate.

Obviously, torture does produce some information, maybe even some good information. If you really squint hard, it may very well be that, technically speaking, there's a lot of truth in the plot of Zero Dark Thirty. It may be that we wouldn't have found bin Laden without torture. And as such, any movie about the hunt for bin Laden that excluded scenes of torture would have been dishonest.

But that's not what's messed up about this movie. The problem had nothing to do with the fact that Bigelow showed torture. It was the way she depicted it – without perspective, and in the context of a pulse-pounding thriller where the audience is clearly supposed to root for the big treasure find.

For one thing, Gibney put out a compelling argument in a Huffington Post piece that the ZD30 storyline is not accurate in the sense that it excluded crucial information. He points to several facts that Bigelow and Boal chose to ignore (and remember, this was supposed to be a "journalistic account," according to Bigelow), like for instance:

1) Mohammed Al-Qatani, the so-called "20th hijacker," who may have been some part of the inspiration for the "Ammar" character who was tortured in the opening scene, might have been the first detainee to mention the name of bin Laden's courier. But as Gibney points out, al-Qatani gave that information up to the FBI, in legit, torture-free interrogations, before he was whisked away to Gitmo for 49 days of torture that included such insanities as forcing him to urinate on himself (by force-feeding him liquids while in restraints), making him watch a puppet show of him and bin Laden having sex, making him take dance lessons, making him wear panties on his head, and making him wear a "smiley-face" mask, along with the usual sleep and sensory deprivation, arm-hanging, etc. In other words, the key info may have come before they chucked our supposed standards for human decency.

2) The CIA waterboarded Khalid Sheikh Mohammed 183 times, and throughout this "enhanced interrogation," the former al-Qaeda mastermind continually played down the importance of Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti, the man who led the CIA to bin Laden. But the CIA was so sure KSM was telling the truth under torture – so sure waterboarding was a "magic bullet," as Gibney put it to me – that they discounted the lead. So torture may have actually delayed bin Laden's capture.

3) The CIA took another detainee, Ibn al-Sheik al Libi, and duct-taped his head, put him in a wooden box, shipped him off to Cairo to be waterboarded, and got him to admit under torture that there were links between Saddam Hussein and bin Laden. This "intel" became part of Colin Powell's presentation to the U.N. on the need to invade Iraq. So while torture might have found us bin Laden, maybe, it also very well might have sent us on one of history's all-time pointlessly bloody wild goose chases, invading Iraq in search of WMDs.

A more accurate movie about the torture program would have been a grotesque comedy that showed grown men resorting to puppet shows and dance routines and fourth-rate sexual indignities dreamed up after spending too much time reading spank mags and BDSM sites – and doing this thousands of times to thousands of people, all over the world, "accidentally" murdering hundreds of people in the process, going to war by mistake at least once as a result of it, and having no clue half the time who they're interrogating (less than 10 percent of "terror suspects" at places like Bagram were arrested by American forces; most of the rest were brought in by Afghanis or other foreigners in exchange for bounties).

I mean, this is real Keystone Kops stuff, on a grand scale, only it had the minor side effect of destroying everything America purports to stand for, in addition to being comically stupid and ineffective.

Zero Dark Thirty is like a gorgeously-rendered monument to the fatal political miscalculation we made during the Bush years. It's a cliché but it's true: Bin Laden wanted us to make this mistake. He wanted America to respond to him by throwing off our carefully-crafted blanket of global respectability to reveal a brutal, repressive hypocrite underneath. He wanted us to stop pretending that we're the country that handcuffs you and reads you your rights instead of extralegally drone-bombing you from the stratosphere, or putting one in your brain in an Egyptian basement somewhere.

The only way we were ever going to win the War on Terror was to win a long, slow, political battle, in which we proved bin Laden wrong, where we allowed people in the Middle East to assess us as a nation and decide we didn't deserve to be mass-murdered. To use another cliché, we needed to win hearts and minds. We had to make lunatics like bin Laden pariahs among their own people, which in turn would make genuine terrorists easier to catch with the aid of genuinely sympathetic local populations.

Instead, we turned people like bin Laden into heroes. Just like Marlowe in The Long Goodbye, there were a lot of people in the Middle East who were on the knife-edge about America after 9/11. Yes, we were hated for supporting Israel, but the number of people willing to suicide-bomb us was still a tiny minority.

The EIT program changed that. We tortured and humiliated thousands of people across the world. We did it on camera, in pictures that everyone in the Middle East can watch over and over again on the Internet. We became notorious for a vast kidnapping program we called by the harmless-sounding term "rendition," and more lately for an endless campaign of extralegal drone attacks, through which 800 innocent people have died in Afghanistan alone in the last four years (the Guardian claims we've killed 168 children in that country in the last seven years).

Now we have this movie out that seems to celebrate the use of torture against Arabs, and we're nominating it for Oscars. Bigelow can say that "depiction is not endorsement," but how does she think audiences will receive it in the Middle East? Are they going to sell lots of popcorn in Riyadh and Kabul during the waterboarding scenes?

This film got nominated for Best Picture – it could even win. Has anyone thought about how Zero Dark Thirty winning Best Picture will be received in places like Kashmir and Waziristan and Saudi Arabia?

But forget about all of that. The real problem is what this movie says about us. When those Abu Ghraib pictures came out years ago, at least half of America was horrified. The national consensus (albeit by a frighteningly slim margin) was that this wasn't who we, as a people, wanted to be. But now, four years later, Zero Dark Thirty comes out, and it seems that that we've become so blunted to the horror of what we did and/or are doing at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo and Bagram and other places that we can accept it, provided we get a boffo movie out of it.

That's pathetic. Bin Laden was maybe the most humorless person who ever lived, but he has to be laughing from the afterlife. We make an incredible movie that celebrates his death – a movie so good it'll be seen everywhere in the world – and all it does is prove him right about us

"Capitalism will never fail because socialism will always be there to bail it out." - Ralph Nader

  

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The DC Sniper
Member since Apr 13th 2010
2109 posts
Wed Jan-16-13 07:42 PM

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92. "RE: Zero Dark Thirty (Kathryn Bigelow, 2012)"
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Steve Coll provides most detailed, thoughtful account yet of Zero Dark Thiry's harmful portrayal of torture


http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2013/feb/07/disturbing-misleading-zero-dark-thirty/?pagination=false

‘Disturbing’ & ‘Misleading’

Steve Coll

It is not unusual for filmmakers to try to inject authenticity into a movie’s first frames by flashing onscreen words such as “based on real events.” Yet the language chosen by the makers of Zero Dark Thirty to preface their film about events leading to the death of Osama bin Laden is distinctively journalistic: “Based on Firsthand Accounts of Actual Events.” As those words fade, “September 11, 2001” appears against a black screen and we hear genuine emergency calls made by victims of al-Qaeda’s attack on the World Trade Center. One caller describes flames spreading around her and says that she is “burning up”; she pleads against death and then her voice disappears. Before any actor speaks a single fictional line, then, Zero Dark Thirty makes two choices: it aligns its methods with those of journalists and historians, and it appropriates as drama what remains the most undigested trauma in American national life during the last several decades.

Since Zero Dark Thirty’s release in New York and Los Angeles in December (it opens nationwide on January 11), the film has provoked a split reaction. Critics have celebrated it for its pacing, control, and arresting but complicated depictions of political violence. The New York Film Critics Circle has named the film best picture of 2012, and it has been nominated for five Academy Awards, including one for the best picture of the year. The qualities some critics admire in the film are familiar from The Hurt Locker, the previous collaboration—about an American bomb squad in Iraq—between the scriptwriter, Mark Boal, and the director, Kathryn Bigelow. (The film made Bigelow the first woman to win an Academy Award for Best Director, in 2009, and it also won an Oscar for Best Picture.)

At the same time, a number of journalists and public officials—including three United States senators—have excoriated Zero Dark Thirty. Their main complaint is that the film greatly overstates the role played by torture—or “enhanced interrogation techniques,” in the CIA’s terrifying euphemism—in extracting from al-Qaeda-affiliated detainees information that ultimately led to the discovery of Osama bin Laden’s hideout in Abbottabad, Pakistan, where he was killed by Navy SEALs on May 2, 2011.

“The film creates the strong impression that the enhanced interrogation techniques…were the key to finding Bin Laden,” Michael Morell, the acting CIA director, wrote to agency employees in December. “That impression is false.” Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Dianne Feinstein and the two senior members of the Armed Services Committee, Democrat Carl Levin and Republican John McCain, coauthored a letter calling the movie’s version of recent counterterrorism history “grossly inaccurate.” The senators said the film’s flaws have “the potential to shape American public opinion in a disturbing and misleading manner.”

Boal is a former journalist who conducted interviews with CIA officers, military officers, and White House officials as he prepared to write Zero Dark Thirty. The Obama administration and CIA leaders reportedly authorized at least some of these interviews, apparently in the belief that the public would appreciate the movie that resulted. Boal has said that he conducted other reporting on his own initiative. Boal and Bigelow have offered two main responses to the criticism they have received. One is that as dramatists compressing a complex history into a cinematic narrative, they must be granted a degree of artistic license.

That is unarguable, of course, and yet the filmmakers cannot, on the one hand, claim authenticity as journalists while, on the other, citing art as an excuse for shoddy reporting about a subject as important as whether torture had a vital part in the search for bin Laden, and therefore might be, for some, defensible as public policy. Boal and Bigelow—not their critics—first promoted the film as a kind of journalism. Bigelow has called Zero Dark Thirty a “reported film.” Boal told a New York Times interviewer before the controversy erupted, “I don’t want to play fast and loose with history.”

Boal has said that he believes his script captures “a very complex debate about torture” because it shows some prisoners giving up information under duress, while others dissemble. There is no reason to doubt that Boal and Bigelow intended to depict the role of torture in the search for bin Laden ambiguously. The Hurt Locker was a film of understated complexity drawn out through action, not didactic explication. Yet The Hurt Locker’s story offered a microcosm of war that did not try too hard to address the larger subject of the tragic invasion of Iraq, and so a viewer had no cause to compare the film’s choices to a record of historical fact.

Zero Dark Thirty has the inverse shape: it is an epic history that the filmmakers try to compress into a microcosm, by telling the story of the decade-long bin Laden hunt, which involved many hundreds of CIA officers and military personnel, primarily through the experience of a single analyst, “Maya,” who is played by Jessica Chastain, and who is based on a real-life CIA employee whom Boal reportedly met. In the film, the personal story of Maya’s pursuit of bin Laden—which is original and convincing—is juxtaposed against explosive external events, such as the terrorist attack in London on July 7, 2005, and the bombing of the Marriott Hotel in Islamabad, Pakistan, in 2008. As much as the filmmakers’ claims to journalistic method, this narrative approach—the summoning of recent, dramatic public events—invites the viewer into judgment about the film’s reliability.

The first problem in assessing Zero Dark Thirty’s fealty to the facts about torture is that most of the record about the CIA’s interrogation program remains secret, including the formally sanctioned use of waterboarding and other brutal techniques between roughly 2002 and 2006. So does the full record of the CIA’s search for bin Laden after September 11. Documents obtained through the Freedom of Information Act by the American Civil Liberties Union and other groups, as well as work by investigative journalists such as Dana Priest of The Washington Post, Jane Mayer of The New Yorker, Mark Danner in this journal, and Adam Goldman of the Associated Press, have brought forward some details about the CIA’s interrogation program. Yet the record remains riddled with gaps and unanswered questions.

An estimate of how large the chasm is between what the public knows and what still-secret records describe can be drawn from accounts of a recently completed Senate Intelligence Committee staff report about the CIA program. The staff report is said to run to six thousand pages, based upon a review of about six million CIA documents and cables to and from “black sites” where just fewer than one hundred al-Qaeda suspects were held and where at least some of them were interrogated brutally, as depicted in Zero Dark Thirty. The Senate report remains highly classified, however, and is unlikely to be released in full anytime soon.

The result of such secrecy is that what is often described as America’s “debate” about the use of torture on al-Qaeda suspects largely consists of assertions, without evidence, by public officials with security clearances who have access to the classified record and who have expressed diametrically opposed opinions about what the record proves. Senator Dianne Feinstein, for example, has said that waterboarding and other harsh techniques were “not central” in developing the clues that led to Osama bin Laden’s hideout. Yet Michael Hayden, the final CIA director of the Bush administration, wrote last year that information gleaned from detainees who were “subjected to some form of enhanced interrogation” proved “crucial” to the search. The most thorough, independent account published on the bin Laden hunt to date—Manhunt, by the journalist Peter Bergen1 —mainly supports Feinstein’s view, but the CIA and other officials Bergen interviewed also asserted that some al-Qaeda detainees who were tortured provided relevant pieces of evidence.

The easiest question to consider is what Zero Dark Thirty actually depicts about the part torture played in locating bin Laden. As best as is known, the CIA’s crucial discovery was to identify a courier, who was known to al-Qaeda colleagues by his nom de guerre, Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti. Agency officers then traced the courier to Abbottabad. Many detainees and other sources contributed information that confirmed the courier’s identity and importance. Ultimately, in the film, Maya tells one detainee that twenty sources have helped to describe al-Kuwaiti’s role.

There can be no mistaking what Zero Dark Thirty shows: torture plays an outsized part in Maya’s success. The first detainee she helps to interrogate is Ammar. He is tortured extensively in the film’s opening sequence, immediately after we hear the voices of World Trade Center victims. Ammar’s face is swollen; we see him strung up by ropes, waterboarded, sexually humiliated, deprived of sleep through the blasting of loud music, and stuffed into a small wooden box. During his ordeal, Ammar does not initially give up reliable information. After he has been subdued and fooled into thinking that he has already been cooperative while delirious, however, he gives up vital intelligence about the courier over a comfortable meal.

Some viewers might regard Ammar’s final confession in the midst of warm hospitality as an example of torture that did not work, or worked only partially. In fact, this sequence of the film depicts precisely how the CIA’s coercive interrogation regime was constructed to break prisoners, according to Jose Rodriguez Jr., a former leader of the CIA Clandestine Service, who has described and defended the interrogation regime in a memoir, Hard Measures: How Aggressive CIA Actions After 9/11 Saved American Lives.2 For if a CIA detainee initially refused to cooperate, interrogators applied “enhanced” techniques in an escalating sequence until the prisoner reached what Rodriguez calls “the compliant stage.” Once the detainee “became complaint and agreed to cooperate,” the harsh methods stopped, Rodriguez wrote, and the prisoner might be fed and coddled in reward for confessions he had not previously made.

We later see Maya review videotaped interrogations of half a dozen other prisoners who provide information about al-Kuwaiti. It is not clear in the film whether these detainees are in CIA custody or in the custody of friendly Arab or other governments. We see the videotapes over Maya’s shoulder. The images are dark and menacing. Many of the prisoners appear to be in the process of being tortured or to have recently been tortured.

Later, Maya conducts two additional interviews directly. In the first, her subject agrees to cooperate with her only after declaring, “I have no desire to be tortured again.” Her last interview is with Abu Faraj al-Libi, an al-Qaeda operations leader. We watch al-Libi undergo waterboarding and physical abuse. Al-Libi denies knowing the bin Laden courier, but by now, Maya has so many other sources that she takes his denial as evidence that the courier is so important that al-Libi would endure torture to protect his identity.

In virtually every instance in the film where Maya extracts important clues from prisoners, then, torture is a factor. Arguably, the film’s degree of emphasis on torture’s significance goes beyond what even the most die-hard defenders of the CIA interrogation regime, such as Rodriguez, have argued. Rodriguez’s position in his memoir is that “enhanced interrogation” was indispensible to the search for bin Laden—not that it was the predominant means of gathering important clues.

As troubling as what Zero Dark Thirty includes about torture’s role in the bin Laden hunt is what it leaves out. The record we have about the CIA interrogation program may be thin, but it tells a fuller story than the film does. For example, at some “black sites” where CIA prisoners were interrogated, agents from the Federal Bureau of Investigation were also present. Because these agents were trained to conduct interrogations that could withstand scrutiny in American courts, and because FBI training is rooted in police traditions, not counterterrorism or warfare, some of the agents on site objected vehemently to the CIA’s harsh methods. They denounced the agency’s “enhanced” techniques as counterproductive and morally wrong.

There is no secret about this strain of dissent within the government about the CIA program. Not only FBI agents, but also some CIA officers expressed qualms about waterboarding and sleep deprivation, as has been described in detail by the former FBI agent Ali H. Soufan in his 2011 book, The Black Banners: The Inside Story of 9/11 and the War Against al-Qaeda.3 Soufan recalls commiserating over the use of “enhanced techniques” with a CIA officer who tells him, “There are the Geneva Conventions on torture. It’s not worth losing myself for this.” Soufan also describes an argument he had with a CIA interrogator about whether torture can produce reliable information from hardened ideologues. When the agency interrogator declared that he would make an al-Qaeda prisoner “fully compliant,” Soufan replied, as he recalls it:

These things won’t work on people committed to dying for their cause…. People like are prepared to be tortured and severely beaten. They expect to be sodomized and to have family members raped in front of them! Do you really think stripping him naked and taking away his chair will make him cooperate?
None of this sort of argument is available to viewers of Zero Dark Thirty. It would hardly have undermined the film’s drama to have included such strong dissents, even in passing, in the interest of journalism that was more complete. The only qualms any of the CIA characters in the film express about torture are oblique and self-protecting. Dan, an interrogator portrayed by the actor Jason Clarke, laments wearily, as he rotates back to headquarters, that he has seen too many men naked, and that he fears the political environment in Washington that once created a permissive atmosphere for his dark arts may now be turning against them.

As cinema, the film’s torture scenes are at once rough and bland. Ammar’s degradation is obviously intended to shock but his mistreatment on screen is hardly more severe than what is routinely shown on television programs such as Homeland or 24. Ammar is stripped naked but we see him mainly from behind. Maya and Dan remark at one point that Ammar has lost control of his bowels but we see nothing of this humiliation directly.

The film’s torture scenes depart from the historical record in two respects. Boal and Bigelow have conflated the pseudoscience of the CIA’s clinical, carefully reviewed “enhanced techniques” such as waterboarding with the out-of-control abuse of prisoners by low-level military police in places such as Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo. Dan puts Ammar in a dog collar and walks him around in an act of ritualized humiliation, but this was never an approved CIA technique.

More importantly, Zero Dark Thirty ignores what the record shows about how regulated, lawyerly, and bureaucratized—how banal—torture apparently became at some of the CIA black sites. A partially declassified report prepared by the CIA’s former inspector general, John Helgerson, indicates that physicians from the CIA’s Office of Medical Services attended interrogation sessions and took prisoners’ vital signs to assure they were healthy enough for the abuse to continue. Agency officers typed out numbingly detailed cables and memos about the enhanced interrogation sessions, as the available outline of the Senate Intelligence Committee’s classified investigation makes clear. Videotapes were recorded and logged. This CIA office routine might have been more shocking on screen than the clichéd physical abuse of prisoners that the filmmakers prefer.

Zero Dark Thirty ultimately fails as journalism because it adopts shortcuts that most reporters would find illegitimate. From the Janet Cooke affair at The Washington Post onward, editors and journalism professors have cautioned against the dangers of employing a “composite” character that may stand in for several real people. Such characters offer the possibility of literary exposition, but they also falsify. Zero Dark Thirty reinforces this view. Boal told the Times that Ammar, the most fully realized al-Qaeda character in the film, is a composite. Yet the film is salted with details that suggest Ammar’s similarity to an actual former CIA detainee, Ali Abdul Aziz Ali, whose nom de guerre was Ammar al-Baluchi.

The real Ali is a thirty-five-year-old nephew of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the admitted mastermind of the September 11 attacks. He was arrested in Pakistan in 2003 and held in secret CIA prisons until he was transferred to Guantánamo in 2006, where he now faces capital charges before a military commission. He is accused of sending, at his uncle’s instructions, as much as $200,000 to the hijackers and providing them with other logistical support. Zero Dark Thirty’s composite Ammar is described at various points as “KSM’s nephew,” who is “tight” with his uncle and has fingerprints “on 9/11 money,” and particularly as someone responsible for transferring $5,000 to the hijackers.

The film’s Ammar is depicted as a doomed man who will spend his entire life behind bars without resort to lawyers or justice. In an early interrogation scene, Maya pulls off her black mask before entering to face the prisoner because Dan assures her that Ammar will never be free to menace her. We are invited to appreciate Ammar’s subjugation.

The truth about Ali is perhaps more interesting. He has been an active, defiant participant in Guantánamo court proceedings and his lawyers have sought permission from military judges to introduce evidence in his defense that he was tortured while in CIA custody, and to pursue information about the identities of the agency officers who interrogated him. That request has been refused on the grounds that what happened to Ali while in CIA prisons is classified. Zero Dark Thirty’s indirect depictions of Ali’s abuse might be the only accounting the real-life prisoner receives in public before he is sentenced to death. Yet the film does nothing to acknowledge its connection to this reality.

Zero Dark Thirty was constructed to bring viewers to the edges of their seats, and judging by its critical reception, for many viewers it has succeeded in that respect. Its faults as journalism matter because they may well affect the unresolved public debate about torture, to which the film makes a distorted contribution. On his second day in office, President Obama outlawed torture by executive order, but he has declined to order investigations to expose publicly or otherwise hold to account the CIA’s detention regime during the Bush years. In the recently concluded election campaign, Mitt Romney declared that he would revive the use of “enhanced interrogation techniques.” Official torture is not an anathema in much of the United States; it is a credible policy choice. In public opinion polling, a bare majority of Americans opposes torturing prisoners in the struggle against terrorism, but public support for torture has risen significantly during the last several years, a change that the Stanford University intelligence scholar Amy Zegart has attributed in part to the influence of “spy-themed entertainment.”

Even if torture worked, it could never be justified because it is immoral. Yet state-sanctioned, formally organized forms of torture recur even in developed democracies because some public leaders have been willing to attach their prestige to an argument that in circumstances of national emergency, torture may be necessary because it will extract timely intelligence relevant to public safety when more humane methods of interrogation will not.

There is no empirical evidence to support this argument. Among other things, no responsible social scientist would condone peer-reviewed experiments to compare torture’s results to those from less coercive questioning. Defenders of torture in the United States therefore argue by issuing a flawed syllogism: the CIA tortured al-Qaeda suspects; those suspects provided information that helped to protect the public; therefore, torture was justified and even essential. In his recent statement to agency employees about Zero Dark Thirty, acting CIA director Morrell gave this argument implicit support when he said that the ongoing debate over the CIA’s treatment of al-Qaeda suspects after 2002 “never will be definitively resolved.”

That is a timid tautology; it is also evidence of a much wider political failure. As with discourse about climate change policy, the persistence of on-the-one-hand, on-the-other forms of argument about the value of officially sanctioned torture represents a victory for those who would justify such abuse. Zero Dark Thirty has performed no public service by enlarging the acceptability of that form of debate.

"Capitalism will never fail because socialism will always be there to bail it out." - Ralph Nader

  

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BennyTenStack
Member since Sep 09th 2007
5681 posts
Mon Jan-21-13 02:15 AM

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94. "It was a MOVIE not a DOCUMENTARY"
In response to Reply # 92


  

          

I can't believe this idiot called it "failed journalism." It's a movie. Made by Hollywood.

  

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The DC Sniper
Member since Apr 13th 2010
2109 posts
Mon Jan-28-13 06:27 PM

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99. "RE: It was a MOVIE not a DOCUMENTARY"
In response to Reply # 94


  

          

>I can't believe this idiot called it "failed journalism."
>It's a movie. Made by Hollywood.

Can you read? Katherine Bigelow was the first to call Zero Dark Thirty journalism in a New Yorker profile they did on her.

"Capitalism will never fail because socialism will always be there to bail it out." - Ralph Nader

  

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CaptNish
Member since Mar 09th 2004
14495 posts
Mon Jan-21-13 10:17 AM

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95. "Ben Affleck beard and coat show >> This"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I liked the beginning. I loved the raid. But the middle of this film is a fucking chore. And why are we praising Chastain? She wasn't very good. THough, not her fault. The character was just poorly written.

_
Yo! That’s My Jawn: The Podcast - Available Now!
http://linktr.ee/yothatsmyjawn

  

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RobOne4
Member since Jun 06th 2003
56697 posts
Mon Jan-21-13 04:50 PM

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96. "finally saw it and was blown away by how mediocre it was"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I was expecting a lot with all the buzz going around. I avoided this thread until I watched it. It was just okay. Nothing special about it. Dont know how the red head got a golden globe. Did not like her at all. Then the movie ended really fast and suddenly. I thought they were going to go into how the body was disposed of maybe end the movie with shots of people gathering in front of the white house.

November 8th, 2005 The greatest night in the history of GD!

  

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GumDrops
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26088 posts
Mon Jan-28-13 05:14 AM

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98. "fuck this film. complete piece of shit. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

propaganda dressed up as fact, as ambiguous, as intelligent, as fairminded, when its anything but. people in the audience laughing at the torture scenes - wtf. torturers depicted as being fair minded - wtf? then theres the zero lack of context about anything outside american soil that may impact on american soil. all in all, its brilliantly made but fucking boring as shit to watch. kathryn bigelow fucking sucks. the fact this has gotten such good reviews make me raise an eyebrow at any critic who is awarding it so generously.

  

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theprofessional
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8761 posts
Mon Jan-28-13 10:37 PM

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100. "bigelow and boal are cowards for not defending the film they made"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

first of all, let's stop the nonsense. this movie is a clear and unambiguous endorsement of the CIA detainee program. the only reason this fact is debatable is because bigelow and boal keep denying that they made the film they made. the controversy has been addressed above and in other places, so i'll make this as brief and simple as possible.

in real life, the path to bin laden was built entirely outside of the torture program (the name abu ahmed came from a legally conducted interview of a suspect who had not-- yet-- been tortured). in zero dark thirty, the path to bin laden also begins with the name abu ahmed, but it's spoken first by a prisoner-- ammar-- who the film spends the first 30 minutes of the film torturing at a CIA black site. the fact that he's not being tortured at the moment he gives up the name is irrelevant. he's been broken by the torture. he begins cooperating. and continues cooperating under the threat of further torture ("i can always hang you back up to the ceiling and go have lunch with someone else"). this series of events simply did not happen in real life, therefore it has to be classified as an artistic decision the filmmakers made-- which is fine, it's their film. but here's what's not fine: whether their artistic decision was made because they wanted to show torture as a large part of our response to 9/11 but didn't want the first 30 minutes of the film to lead to a dead end, whether their research yielded different information than everyone else got and they really do believe the path to bin laden came out of the detainee program (that'd be kind of an enormous scoop, they should talk about it), or whatever their reasoning is, we don't know and we may never know, because they're pretending like this isn't the film they made.

bigelow and boal are further defending the film by saying that depiction of torture is not an endorsement of torture. that's absolutely 100% true, and it's the same reasoning i was using to defend them before i saw the film. it's just like depiction of slavery in django unchained is not an endorsement of slavery. unless calvin candie is the PROTAGONIST of your film. in zero dark thirty, the PROTAGONISTS are the ones torturing, and at no point are their actions questioned. and please spare me the plea copping about maya's look of disgust in the first scene. she was a rookie, she was learning the ropes. THAT was the point of the disgust on her face. but eventually she became a pro at it and never looked back. in fact, at no point at all do the protagonists look back-- whether with regret or remorse or anything that can even be classified as reflection ("i ran the program, i'll defend it"). daniel's line before he heads back to washington-- "i think i've seen too many guys naked"-- is a selfish comment on the effect the torture had on him, the poor weary torturer, not the detainees or, you know, the moral standing of the united states. and at no point is it mentioned that what they're doing is ILLEGAL. they're breaking the law. if the argument you're making is that breaking the law is a justified response to 9/11, make that argument. let's hear it. but bigelow and boal don't even bother to mention it. they claim they wanted only to depict, not judge. but by mentioning that the torture was illegal, by mentioning that there was enormous internal government debate about it, you're not judging it, you're providing your audience with CONTEXT. by showing everything from daniel and maya's point of view, and declining to give daniel and maya the gift of self-reflection, the filmmakers simply failed at their job. therefore, what we the audience see is our heroic protagonists going too far, but eventually getting what they're after. much like we see cops on bad TV shows slapping around suspects, knowing it's illegal for them to do so, but rooting for them anyway because we know these are bad guys who deserve it. so at the end of the day, by any means necessary.

and that's the ultimate message of the film: by any means necessary. the film opens with a reminder of the horror of 9/11. the rest of the film tells us that we did what we had to do to get bin laden. we did what we had to do. and we got the guy. if this isn't an outright endorsement of torture, it is at the very least an absolution of it. if that's the case you're making, make it. that's certainly the film you made, so DEFEND IT.

i saw an interview with jessica chastain where she was genuinely baffled at the criticism the film has received. the way she saw it, the film was very clear that the torture got them nowhere. not one single piece of usable information came *during* the the torture scenes (which is true), and the attacks-- in saudi arabia, in london, etc.-- continued unabated through the length of the torture program (also true). in her estimation, the film was making a clear case AGAINST torture. it's an interesting take, but i'm sorry to report that if that's the film bigelow and boal meant to make, they failed miserably. the path to bin laden in their film was a very straight, crystal clear line from the torture rooms of the CIA black sites to abbottabad. if the film chastain described is the film bigelow and boal meant to make, they should say that. say, oops, we can see how people might interpret it that way, but here's what we were saying. but they're not saying that. they're pretending like they were objective journalists who were above editorializing the events in their film. it's cowardly. film is art. tell us what we're seeing. you're the one holding the megaphone, you're the one with the voice, so use it.

as far as the film outside of the controversy, look, it's a very good film. a very well-constructed procedural. i mean, let's state the obvious. this film's entire reason for being is the last 30 minutes-- everybody wanted to see the bin laden raid reenacted. you could literally put any movie in front of that last 30 minutes and have a compelling film (a movie about seal team six, a movie about the life of bin laden, a movie contrasting the bush and obama white houses in the bin laden hunt, anything). but the movie they did put in front of it was very good. the attention to detail was strong, breaking up the hunt into chapters was well done, and bigelow's direction was generally fantastic. far and away a better film than the hurt locker.

not a perfect film though. the maya character was far too cold and distant for my tastes. i get that she's single-minded, she's obsessed, but give us something more than that to latch onto. tell us she lost her uncle in 9/11 or something. tell us she watches jeopardy in her spare time. i mean, come on, anything. for this reason, the very last shot of the film fell flat for me. as little as i cared about her character, i almost wished they had made this a traffic-style ensemble, where we follow several different characters agents/soldiers/politicians/terrorists simultaneously and their stories all converge in the end at the abbottabad raid. there's certainly a better film to be made from this subject matter. but as well done as the abbottabad raid was done, i doubt we'll see that film anytime soon. bigelow set a high bar. also, a minor nitpick, but i thought jessica's meeting with the jordanian mole was mishandled a bit. as soon as she tells security to stand down, you know how it's gonna go, which leads to a painfully long and obvious setup, complete with a black cat crossing in front of the car (i laughed, like really?). they should have just had the car come through the checkpoints with no mention of security standing down, then later having someone tell maya that jessica called off security so as not to spook her mole. whatever. it's a nitpick.

overall, a really well done film, certainly one of the top 10 of the year. it's just a shame we have to waste so much time arguing about indisputable facts, because the filmmakers would rather play coy with their intentions and deny that zero dark thirty is what it is.

"i smack clowns with nouns, punch herbs with verbs..."

  

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