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Utamaroho
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Mon Feb-18-02 04:11 AM

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"Ancient Egyptian Mathematics (Lecture Review)"


  

          

"No wonder the Europeans want to claim Egypt." -Runoko Rashidi at Global African Presence Lecture.

This statement is reiterated in the lecture by Charles Finch III, M.D. during a presentation on Ancient Egyptian Mathematics. This was a precurser to a lecture and discussion on Mathematics as it relates to Black Children held at Stone Mountain Charter School. Several african centered shools were represented, from Alkebulan, to the Aya Institute. Discussions about the "disconnect" that many children (specifically black children) go through when dealing with learning math. The discussion (micro level interaction) was preceded by Dr. Finch's lecture (macro level introduction) that provided the background for the involvment of our (African Peoples) involvement in Mathematics. This part of the lecture was placed in order to show the "HISTORICAL" disconnect between Africans and Mathematics. This was compared to the individual stories of "disconnectedness" with mathematics that was told by lecture participants. After all was said and done...THERE IS NO REASON FOR BLACK PEOPLE TO USE THE EXCUSE "I'm not good in math"...EVER. Not students...not parents...not teachers...or people throughout the community.

Why? Because mathematics are a part of everyone's life and is found in and necessary for daily activity. Also, considering the sheer volume of history that we have in the invention and creation of mathematics...there is no reason to continue the age old phrase of "i wasn't good in math, so that's why she's not." or "i was never able to pick it up, so it don't matter if you get it." Also discussed was the behavior of how entering certain levels, and classes for mathematics alienates students from their peers, whereas being in "the smart class" starts a social separation between the "smart student" an his or her peers. This often leads to feelings of isolation (initiated by self and by peers) and at times the "playing dumb" behavior in which the child tries to purposely appear stupid to gain acceptance.

Why is this important? One of the most interesting points made was how when african students are taught mathematics in the european setting...often times they were/are made to choose between "mama's methods" and "how the teacher wants us to do it". (i'm sure some of the okayparents have heard this one) This forces the child to choose, at a very early age, between academia, or family(communal) ways of doing/operating. In traditional african systems there is no reason at all for a child to choose between community and academia, because they are intertwined as is shown by the presence of teacher/community leaders' involvement in the teaching processes. This creates a sense of unity in "school" and in "life" as far learning goes and no "disconnect" (key term used to describe this feature in european learning as it pertains to africans) involved in a child's matriculation through school.

NOW to the Egyptian Mathematics part...

As a math major, this was a fun lecture to be at. Not only did i learn some things, but was challenged and inspired to do some research into some of the more fragmented info concerning some of the work the egyptians did. This is a good "pick me up" for my hieroglyphic studies. Studying their procedures and findings for calculating the dimensions of the earth alone would make for a good summer project...Also, their ideas and findings abou the heavens were something to be admired. "HOW" they did it is what fascinates me most. Maybe i'll get a group of Math cats together and try to replicate some of their procedures. They had advanced knowledge of algebra, trigonometry, and at least the beginning phases of calculus (although whether they actually HAD the ability for calculus is still under debate). What i found most interesting was their use of powers of 2 for multiplication of large numbers (multiplication by doubling). There is SO much i left there wanting to get into that i don't really know where to start, althogh a nice replication of the RMP (Rind Mathematical Papyrus) would be a good birthday gift if any of yall wanna buy me something.

Red, Black, Green

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
i talk about this all the time
Feb 18th 2002
1
my experience...
Feb 18th 2002
2
volume of solids
Feb 18th 2002
13
of course THEY knew.
Feb 18th 2002
19
      they also showed it's plane geometry being written...AND applied...
Feb 18th 2002
20
           that's the part of calc that i hated.
Feb 18th 2002
23
(short off topic)
Feb 18th 2002
32
Women as the First Mathematicians
Feb 18th 2002
3
this is important because...
Feb 18th 2002
4
reading my mind.
Feb 18th 2002
5
moreso than that...
Feb 18th 2002
6
Jewel Pookrum, MD
Feb 18th 2002
9
also:
Feb 18th 2002
7
RE: reading my mind.
Feb 18th 2002
16
      modern ideas about "hunter gatherer" societites has been challenged...
Feb 18th 2002
18
           RE: modern ideas about "hunter gatherer" societites has been challenged....
Feb 18th 2002
21
                ok. will do. (get you some names)
Feb 18th 2002
24
                     RE: ok. will do. (get you some names)
Feb 18th 2002
25
                          yeah... Dr. Charles Finch in Echoes of the Old Darkland
Feb 18th 2002
26
                               when i say lack of work...
Feb 18th 2002
27
                               RE: when i say lack of work...
Feb 18th 2002
30
                               I don't know about that
Feb 18th 2002
28
                               it is.
Feb 18th 2002
29
                               RE: yeah... Dr. Charles Finch in Echoes of the Old Darkland
Feb 18th 2002
34
WOW.
Feb 18th 2002
10
RE: Women as the First Mathematicians
Feb 18th 2002
11
When is your birthday?
Feb 18th 2002
8
hold up
Feb 18th 2002
12
RE: Ancient Egyptian Mathematics (Lecture Review)
Feb 18th 2002
14
what was the point of this response?
Feb 18th 2002
15
RE: what was the point of this response?
Feb 18th 2002
17
that's a good link. thanks!
Feb 18th 2002
22
      RE: that's a good link. thanks!
Feb 18th 2002
31
thank you my brother
Feb 18th 2002
33
My heads been in
Feb 19th 2002
35
RE: Ancient Egyptian Mathematics (Lecture Review)
Feb 19th 2002
36
RE: Ancient Egyptian Mathematics (Lecture Review)
Feb 22nd 2002
37

poetx
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Mon Feb-18-02 05:11 AM

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1. "i talk about this all the time"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

from the perspective that math is part of our heritage cuz we invented it.

diop, of course, provides a thorough breakdown of the rhind papyrus, though this is one place where anthony browder may actually go further than him (he provides more illustrations) in demonstrating the concepts. what's intriguing is that 'some' of the info can be said to be coded and inferential, but there are a lot of things that are unequivocally mathematical expressions/problems. one thing that pops into mind is the statement that no one knows how the egyptians derived the formula for the volume of a pyramid.

>Discussions about
>the "disconnect" that many children
>(specifically black children) go through
>when dealing with learning math.

exactly. this is a clear case for 'applied history'. just cause the larger society ain't trying to give a brotha or sista props who ain't wearing nikes, doesn't mean that we don't have much more to contribute.

>Why? Because mathematics are a part
>of everyone's life and is
>found in and necessary for
>daily activity.

side note: regardless of WHAT our historical role has been in the development of mathematics, this underscores a problem w/ the school system (at least in the US). math is taught in abstraction, without reinforcement of the relationship to the real world. i just went to visit a potential magnet school for my kids (hate the underlying concept, but w/in the system, i'll make sure my kids get what they need while working for all) and the 5th grade math teacher had them doing an exercise where the kids had to plan for a trip for a group of people, choose meals for themselves and their from several restaurants and menus for multiple days, and calculate the costs including tax and tip. great idea, and from just a bit of observation of the class, we could see the kids were 'into' it. these are not the kids who are gonna ask, "why i gotta learn this shit?". incidentally, if we go to sams club we make the kids add up the running total in their heads, and have them figure the tip in restaurants...


>Also discussed was the
>behavior of how entering certain
>levels, and classes for mathematics
>alienates students from their peers,
>whereas being in "the smart
>class" starts a social separation
>between the "smart student" an
>his or her peers. This
>often leads to feelings of
>isolation (initiated by self and
>by peers) and at times
>the "playing dumb" behavior in
>which the child tries to
>purposely appear stupid to gain
>acceptance.

no doubt. been there. had it not been for the fact that i played three sports in h.s., my academics would have completely severed me from my peer group. i wrote an article on ebonics before, where i commented that math teachers were the ones who'd be trying to correct my english all the time (cuz the english teachers knew i was killin it). basically, they were trying to reinforce this separation between 'us' (smart kids?) and 'them' (rest of the kids), and i wasn't having it, since i failed to see the need for conforming my hallway conversation to suit a 'classroom' aesthetic.

this is a real phenomenon. i've often thought that, just as much as we need to focus on the so-called 'at-risk' children, we ought to simultaneously focus on the 'gifted' kids, to keep them grounded and engaged in their culture and society. it would be dope to have a program which put both groups of kids together, so that they could learn from each other.

if not, you get clarence thomases and condoleeza rice's. its one thing to be on some colorblind, kumbayaa ish, but we are producing folks who are absolutely contemptuous of their own people. and that's sad.

>Why is this important? One of
>the most interesting points made
>was how when african students
>are taught mathematics in the
>european setting...often times they were/are
>made to choose between "mama's
>methods" and "how the teacher
>wants us to do it".
>(i'm sure some of the
>okayparents have heard this one)
>This forces the child to
>choose, at a very early
>age, between academia, or family(communal)
>ways of doing/operating.

interesting. i've seen that. my wife and i have to watch for it to make sure we don't teach the kids something that will make them 'lose points'.

What
>i found most interesting was
>their use of powers of
>2 for multiplication of large
>numbers (multiplication by doubling).

that interests me also -- i'm not really a math head (hated that ish in college, but then again, the methods turned me off and i didn't have the motivation to get beyond that). of course, if you'd like to break that down in a post, that would be beneficial. i'm sure that some of us who tutor, or teach, could use it.

There
>is SO much i left
>there wanting to get into
>that i don't really know
>where to start, althogh a
>nice replication of the RMP
>(Rind Mathematical Papyrus) would be
>a good birthday gift if
>any of yall wanna buy
>me something.

uh, yeah. where is it, anyway? i'd assume britain? did you hear that they had to give back a copy of the ark of the covenant to some dark folks (ethiopia?) who politely said 'give us back our shit?'. interesting.

peace & blessings,

x.


peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just
focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and
not having much to show for it. (c) mad

  

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Utamaroho
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Mon Feb-18-02 05:39 AM

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2. "my experience..."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

Father placed me in all accelerated classes...specifically MATH. i was isolated from community for being a "nerd" but accepted later on as the "smart kid" that represented his group amongst all the white people. Transferred down south during senior year of HS and laughed at their math program. Layed back in class, didn't even try...graduated with honors and got full ride scholarship in Mathematics to Morehouse. blah blah blah...

result: I have a love of the logical and analytical disciplines that allows me to process more of the "hard" problems that require lots of research, information synthesis, and logical progression. This is actually "fun" to me. One the down side. i have a hard time seeing how this type of procedure (logic/math) is thrown away by my people when trying to solve our problems...when our ancestors seemingly MASTERED the sciences! Either the current system we are using is not adapted for us...or we're using their excuses when we cannot achieve.

I agree...the abstract use of mathematics for seemingly no other purpose than to pass tests is a problem. In the african centered schools here, there are MANY, MANY activities where APPLICATION is the main point. Also, in studying some of the egyptian uses of mathematics...on could create a system that could visually teach some more of the simple theorems. I walked around the place and saw some really neat excercises used to teach math "use" vs. just knowing how to solve excerciseson paper. I know the Aya institute has some EXCELLENT teaching methods for teaching relationship of "problems" to application from what i've seen.

Creating unnecessary hierarchies in school can potentially cause serious problems if not balanced out with "teaching one another" like you said. Ultimately exercises designed to include ALL students to solve ONE problem where different groups would use a specific aspect of math (algebra...geometry...time...etc.) to be used in conjunction with others to find the solution.

Overall, the problem in most cases (as per the testimony of participants) was lack of personal time, and above all else...now get this: Lack of explanation RELATIONSHIP OF Math to Reality! There the african people go with trying to apply knowledge vs. just doing problems to be doing them. That was interesting to hear, because many of the people who stated their "disconnect" features were telling about how at home they were taught APLLICATION vs. being given "problems" at school to just compute.



______________________
STORY FROM THE SUDAN

A Catholic missionary found himself in similar difficulty with the Shilluk. He painted a delightful word picture of the beautiful and bounteous life in Europe. A Shilluk warrior stood up and said: "It cannot be true. If it were, you white men would stay in Europe instead of bothering us here." "We don't want to disturb you," the missionary said, "we only want to teach you." "Well, then," the Shilluk warrior answered, "what can you really do? Can you build a hut?" "No," the missionary said. "Or make a spear?" "No," the missionary replied. "I am unfamiliar with it." "Well, then, can you at least make pots?" The missionary acknowledged that he could not. The Shilluk warrior said, "Among us, even the women can make pots, yet you cannot do it. You are useless."

Red, Black, Green

  

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Allah
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Mon Feb-18-02 07:20 AM

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13. "volume of solids"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          


saying that the hpy valley people did not know how to
derive the volume of a pyramid is like saying they did not
know the concept of volume, especially of simple solids,
like cubes and other rectangular solids, which is ludicrous,
since in all the thousands of years of building mastabas,
let alone pyramids and other megaliths, the knowledge of
deriving volumes of various solids would have to already
been place, or sooned discovered, from just the
rudimentary earlier momuments. Peace.

DRE Allah allah@metalab.unc.edu
http://metalab.unc.edu/nge/physical
Physical Science Productions

_______________________
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poetx
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Mon Feb-18-02 09:16 AM

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19. "of course THEY knew."
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

what i was saying was that while papyrii have been found which list the equation for the volume of a pyramidical form, we do not have (to my knowledge) the papyrus which shows *how* they derived the formula, as we do for many of the other mathematical formulas they discovered and employed. uta was asking for theoretical exercises based upon ancient african mathematics, and i vaguely recall reading (african origins of civilizations..., i think) that the Kamau would have used a different, but as yet undiscovered, means of deriving the formula, then the greeks eventually used. they certainly knew how to do it, as they had not only the theory but the application, which pre-existed the greeks by millenia.

>saying that the hpy valley people
>did not know how to
>
>derive the volume of a pyramid
>is like saying they did

exactly. i was alluding to europeans who've attributed the 'discovery' to the greeks, in violation of common sense. that's why its absurd to refer to a 'pythagorean' theorem, etc, when the egyptians showed mastery of the three-dimensial application of those concepts thousands of years earlier.



peace & blessings,

x.


peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just
focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and
not having much to show for it. (c) mad

  

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Utamaroho
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Mon Feb-18-02 09:20 AM

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20. "they also showed it's plane geometry being written...AND applied..."
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

there are papyri to date that show the actual calculations of the area of a rectangle and of triangles...as well as a diagram (from old kingdom) on how to find the area under a curve(precurser to calc.) by fitting rectangles underneath thte curve.


______________________
STORY FROM THE SUDAN

A Catholic missionary found himself in similar difficulty with the Shilluk. He painted a delightful word picture of the beautiful and bounteous life in Europe. A Shilluk warrior stood up and said: "It cannot be true. If it were, you white men would stay in Europe instead of bothering us here." "We don't want to disturb you," the missionary said, "we only want to teach you." "Well, then," the Shilluk warrior answered, "what can you really do? Can you build a hut?" "No," the missionary said. "Or make a spear?" "No," the missionary replied. "I am unfamiliar with it." "Well, then, can you at least make pots?" The missionary acknowledged that he could not. The Shilluk warrior said, "Among us, even the women can make pots, yet you cannot do it. You are useless."

Red, Black, Green

  

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poetx
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Mon Feb-18-02 09:34 AM

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23. "that's the part of calc that i hated."
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

if i knew the origins, i may have paid more attention.



peace & blessings,

x.

peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just
focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and
not having much to show for it. (c) mad

  

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Federisco
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Mon Feb-18-02 11:35 AM

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32. "(short off topic)"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

>i'd assume britain? did you
>hear that they had to
>give back a copy of
>the ark of the covenant
>to some dark folks (ethiopia?)
>who politely said 'give us
>back our shit?'. interesting.

I have read that the ark has stayed in Ethiopia ever since Queen Saba and Solomon's son, Melek(?), brought it with him when he went home to Ethiopia. (Why did you say "a copy"? i thought there was only one Ark of the covenant, whats the use of a copy and even more - recilaiming it?) But i know the italians brought home one of the worlds' largest, oldest and neatliest decorated (:)) obelix' from Ethiopia, and i think they had to return it not too long ago. The italians had put it in the middle of a roundabout in Rome i think!?

*done*

░▒▓█▌¹♥▐█▓▒░

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Utamaroho
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Mon Feb-18-02 05:42 AM

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3. "Women as the First Mathematicians"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Women were the first mathematicians ever! So claims Dena Taylor in an article entitled "The Power of Menstruation" (Mothering, Winter 1991).

The cyclical nature of menstruation has played a major role in the development of counting, mathematics, and the measuring of time... Lunar markings found on prehistoric bone fragments show how early women marked their cycles and thus began to mark time. Women were possibly "the first observers of the basic periodicity of nature, the periodicity upon which all later scientific observations were made" (quote is from William Irwin Thompson: The Time Falling Bodies Take to Light, St. Martin's Press, 1981, page 97).
Let's review some of the evidence. In my book Africa
Counts: Number and Pattern in African Culture (L. Hill, 1979), I wrote about the Ishango bone, an artifact that has since found its way into books on the history of mathematics by Howard Eves, George G. Joseph, and others. This incised bone was discovered in the 1960s on the shore of a lake in northeastern Zaire. Originally described as a record of prime numbers and doubling (perhaps a forerunner of the ancient Egyptian system of multiplication by doubling), Alexander Marshack later concluded, on the basis of his microscopic examination, that it represented a six-month lunar calendar. The dating of the Ishango bone has been reevaluated, from about 8000 B.C.to perhaps 20,000 B.C. or earlier. Similar calendar bones, dating back as much as 30,000 years, have been found in Europe. Thus far the oldest such incised bone, discovered in southern Africa and having 29 incisions, goes back about 37,000 years.
Now, who but a woman keeping track of her cycles would need a lunar calendar? When I raised this question with a colleague having similar mathematical interests, he suggested that early agriculturalists might have kept such records. However, he was quick to add that women were probably the first agriculturalists. They discovered cultivation while the men were out hunting, So, whichever way you look at it, women were undoubtedly the first mathematicians!
(The above appeared in the Fall 1991 issue of the Women in Mathematics Education Newsletter.)
Author's subsequent note: In his revised (1991) book, Marshack has an extensive note on the redating of the Ishango incised bone: "The date obtained suggest that the Ishango tool with its sets of marks, its inset points, and its association with bone harpoons, was 20000 to 25000 years old."


Red, Black, Green

  

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Utamaroho
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Mon Feb-18-02 05:49 AM

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4. "this is important because..."
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

a cyclical idea of TIME, held by many african sciences, was the foundation upon which the caluculations and theories about atronomy were built. This was one of the most intense branches of their science which led to the developement of most of what the math we used is based.
______________________
STORY FROM THE SUDAN

A Catholic missionary found himself in similar difficulty with the Shilluk. He painted a delightful word picture of the beautiful and bounteous life in Europe. A Shilluk warrior stood up and said: "It cannot be true. If it were, you white men would stay in Europe instead of bothering us here." "We don't want to disturb you," the missionary said, "we only want to teach you." "Well, then," the Shilluk warrior answered, "what can you really do? Can you build a hut?" "No," the missionary said. "Or make a spear?" "No," the missionary replied. "I am unfamiliar with it." "Well, then, can you at least make pots?" The missionary acknowledged that he could not. The Shilluk warrior said, "Among us, even the women can make pots, yet you cannot do it. You are useless."

Red, Black, Green

  

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poetx
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Mon Feb-18-02 05:58 AM

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5. "reading my mind."
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

i was on a search for some sites on blacks in math/sciences and came upon the (shango?) bone (damn, i hit reply not reply/quote). and they spoke on the fact that the correlation to the lunar calendar probably meant that it had significance to woman tracking their menses.

this makes sense to me. and since i've been talking to ananse (re: people's transition from hunter gatherer to agricultural societies) it makes perfect sense as well. assuming that the women were caring for the children while the men hunted, they would have some 'idle' time (while little RayShaun and Tyeisha was sleeping ) in which to develop rudimentary mathematics. and the monthly bleeding thing? damn, that would be one of the first things that i'd want to figure out, yunno? be like, "yo, shirl, every time the moon makes the big smiley face in the sky, i need to run out and get some super dupers, we need to track how many times the great eye opens and shuts so we can budget for this."

this would be a powerful thing to counteract the falloff of females in math and science that occurs in the higher grades.


peace & blessings,

x.


January is Kool Keith quote month, for lack of anything else:

"I never hearda you stupid, what's your name man??"

"Rappers don't know, I'm out the hospital/
cold buggin' and illin' like Dr. Doolittle"

"I'll chew your ass like monkeys on Wild Kingdom"

"you call yourself GOD, can you make it rain?/
can you tell me now what I'm thinkin' in my brain?"

"under your arms, you're kickin power and musty"

"word to mom, I'm in my own world.../
galaxy raaaaaays... powerful"

peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just
focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and
not having much to show for it. (c) mad

  

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Utamaroho
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17658 posts
Mon Feb-18-02 06:09 AM

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6. "moreso than that..."
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

in Echoes of the Old Darkland, Finch points out how MOST of the origins of social behavior and developement of matriarchal societies are formed from the woman's cycle...among MANY other things like our 30 day calendar system.


______________________
STORY FROM THE SUDAN

A Catholic missionary found himself in similar difficulty with the Shilluk. He painted a delightful word picture of the beautiful and bounteous life in Europe. A Shilluk warrior stood up and said: "It cannot be true. If it were, you white men would stay in Europe instead of bothering us here." "We don't want to disturb you," the missionary said, "we only want to teach you." "Well, then," the Shilluk warrior answered, "what can you really do? Can you build a hut?" "No," the missionary said. "Or make a spear?" "No," the missionary replied. "I am unfamiliar with it." "Well, then, can you at least make pots?" The missionary acknowledged that he could not. The Shilluk warrior said, "Among us, even the women can make pots, yet you cannot do it. You are useless."

Red, Black, Green

  

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ya Setshego
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Mon Feb-18-02 06:38 AM

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9. "Jewel Pookrum, MD"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

said that at the Melanin Conference over ten years ago. That is probably how Dr. Finch knew about it.


"Next to God we are indebted to Afrikan women, first for
giving us life and secondly for making that life worth
living." -Mary Mc Leod Bethune

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*If U have won a Grammy, one of two things are at play: 1. Your shit is TIGHT
2. U are white
-(Me)

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++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Oooo baby I like it raw. Oooo baby I like it RAAAW!(c)ODB- Shimmy Shimmy Ya

  

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Utamaroho
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Mon Feb-18-02 06:15 AM

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7. "also:"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

that bone is the oldest known representation of the use of prime numbers for calculation...

it is necessary to note that these africans were using high-level mathematics...not some simple 1+1=2 type stuff...

...as a mathematician, i HAD to appreciate some of the promblems and papyri i saw at the lecture. many of those things attributed to europeans "discovering" were alread discovered and passed down to them from africa long, long agao. i remember having to do book reports on all these european men, and not once was it mentioned that much of what they had been the "firsts" of, had been done long before them. seems like we need our own MATH book as well as history book.

______________________
STORY FROM THE SUDAN

A Catholic missionary found himself in similar difficulty with the Shilluk. He painted a delightful word picture of the beautiful and bounteous life in Europe. A Shilluk warrior stood up and said: "It cannot be true. If it were, you white men would stay in Europe instead of bothering us here." "We don't want to disturb you," the missionary said, "we only want to teach you." "Well, then," the Shilluk warrior answered, "what can you really do? Can you build a hut?" "No," the missionary said. "Or make a spear?" "No," the missionary replied. "I am unfamiliar with it." "Well, then, can you at least make pots?" The missionary acknowledged that he could not. The Shilluk warrior said, "Among us, even the women can make pots, yet you cannot do it. You are useless."

Red, Black, Green

  

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thrill_factor
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Mon Feb-18-02 09:04 AM

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16. "RE: reading my mind."
In response to Reply # 5


          



assuming that the women
>were caring for the children
>while the men hunted, they
>would have some 'idle' time


Women were the gathers in hunter-gatherers, and in fact provided for most of a family's nutritional intake. I expect that like women today, especially in agricultural societies, they did more hours of labor than men do. I expect that it's simply we're used to 'multi-tasking'.



-----------------------------------
The odds still favor croupiers,
But give the wheel another spin.
Things break down in different ways:
We can't, for that, omit their praise.
--Tom Disch, Entropic Villanelle

  

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Utamaroho
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Mon Feb-18-02 09:11 AM

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18. "modern ideas about "hunter gatherer" societites has been challenged..."
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

(and done so very well i might add) by African centered anthropologists and scholars. This is said to pose that females more likely than not had the extra time that could have been used for liesure activity.


______________________
STORY FROM THE SUDAN

A Catholic missionary found himself in similar difficulty with the Shilluk. He painted a delightful word picture of the beautiful and bounteous life in Europe. A Shilluk warrior stood up and said: "It cannot be true. If it were, you white men would stay in Europe instead of bothering us here." "We don't want to disturb you," the missionary said, "we only want to teach you." "Well, then," the Shilluk warrior answered, "what can you really do? Can you build a hut?" "No," the missionary said. "Or make a spear?" "No," the missionary replied. "I am unfamiliar with it." "Well, then, can you at least make pots?" The missionary acknowledged that he could not. The Shilluk warrior said, "Among us, even the women can make pots, yet you cannot do it. You are useless."

Red, Black, Green

  

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thrill_factor
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Mon Feb-18-02 09:30 AM

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21. "RE: modern ideas about "hunter gatherer" societites has been challenged...."
In response to Reply # 18


          

>(and done so very well i
>might add) by African centered
>anthropologists and scholars. This is
>said to pose that females
>more likely than not had
>the extra time that could
>have been used for liesure
>activity.


Show me an anthropologist who posits that women were minding the kids and having idle time while the kids were sleeping while men were out hunting. That's the Flintstones, not anthropology.

The having of leisure time does not in any way undermine that women's labor in food acquisition. And it remains globally true that women put in more labor-hours than men do.

And ironically, the notion of women having idle time while minding children while men go out to hunt is in fact a Victorian and European-centered view of the world. An African-centered view of the world would be perfectly cognizant of women's contribution to food intake.


-----------------------------------
The odds still favor croupiers,
But give the wheel another spin.
Things break down in different ways:
We can't, for that, omit their praise.
--Tom Disch, Entropic Villanelle

  

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Utamaroho
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Mon Feb-18-02 09:34 AM

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24. "ok. will do. (get you some names)"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

but more importantly...what i think you are seeing me say is that women DID NOT contribute to gathering...which is not something i'm saying. i just said that they would have the liesure TIME to etch into a bone...something that wouldn't take much time at all. the PURPOSE of the ethin and the utilization of prime numbers is my only concern. that women did it is merely hypothesis...and used to relate their cycle to later cyclically oriented ideas that later people used.

______________________
STORY FROM THE SUDAN

A Catholic missionary found himself in similar difficulty with the Shilluk. He painted a delightful word picture of the beautiful and bounteous life in Europe. A Shilluk warrior stood up and said: "It cannot be true. If it were, you white men would stay in Europe instead of bothering us here." "We don't want to disturb you," the missionary said, "we only want to teach you." "Well, then," the Shilluk warrior answered, "what can you really do? Can you build a hut?" "No," the missionary said. "Or make a spear?" "No," the missionary replied. "I am unfamiliar with it." "Well, then, can you at least make pots?" The missionary acknowledged that he could not. The Shilluk warrior said, "Among us, even the women can make pots, yet you cannot do it. You are useless."

Red, Black, Green

  

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thrill_factor
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Mon Feb-18-02 09:41 AM

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25. "RE: ok. will do. (get you some names)"
In response to Reply # 24


          

>but more importantly...what i think you
>are seeing me say is
>that women DID NOT contribute
>to gathering...which is not something
>i'm saying. i just said
>that they would have the
>liesure TIME to etch into
>a bone...something that wouldn't take
>much time at all


Ok, I think we just had a small misunderstanding. I'm perfectly fine with women having leisure time. My point was only that the whole "idle time" thing seemed dismissive of women's non-childcare labor.

I still think it's more likely they probably worked their math out while gathering veg, minding the kids, and talking to their homegirls. Probably got one of the kids to take dictation. : )



-----------------------------------
The odds still favor croupiers,
But give the wheel another spin.
Things break down in different ways:
We can't, for that, omit their praise.
--Tom Disch, Entropic Villanelle

  

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Utamaroho
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Mon Feb-18-02 09:49 AM

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26. "yeah... Dr. Charles Finch in Echoes of the Old Darkland"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

points out the social structure of early humans as it would have developed into the matriarchal model. A model in which the woman had more time to develope "society". Overall he argues that the earliest societies would have been matriarchal...a model that would give women the position and liesure (through lack of work) to develope "ideas".

______________________
STORY FROM THE SUDAN

A Catholic missionary found himself in similar difficulty with the Shilluk. He painted a delightful word picture of the beautiful and bounteous life in Europe. A Shilluk warrior stood up and said: "It cannot be true. If it were, you white men would stay in Europe instead of bothering us here." "We don't want to disturb you," the missionary said, "we only want to teach you." "Well, then," the Shilluk warrior answered, "what can you really do? Can you build a hut?" "No," the missionary said. "Or make a spear?" "No," the missionary replied. "I am unfamiliar with it." "Well, then, can you at least make pots?" The missionary acknowledged that he could not. The Shilluk warrior said, "Among us, even the women can make pots, yet you cannot do it. You are useless."

Red, Black, Green

  

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Utamaroho
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Mon Feb-18-02 09:53 AM

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27. "when i say lack of work..."
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

i mean time consuming and roaming-centered work like hunting...PLUS they would have more stagnant based activities during pregnancy, a time in which physical activities would be lessened and they'd be the focal point of higher end social activities...



______________________
STORY FROM THE SUDAN

A Catholic missionary found himself in similar difficulty with the Shilluk. He painted a delightful word picture of the beautiful and bounteous life in Europe. A Shilluk warrior stood up and said: "It cannot be true. If it were, you white men would stay in Europe instead of bothering us here." "We don't want to disturb you," the missionary said, "we only want to teach you." "Well, then," the Shilluk warrior answered, "what can you really do? Can you build a hut?" "No," the missionary said. "Or make a spear?" "No," the missionary replied. "I am unfamiliar with it." "Well, then, can you at least make pots?" The missionary acknowledged that he could not. The Shilluk warrior said, "Among us, even the women can make pots, yet you cannot do it. You are useless."

Red, Black, Green

  

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thrill_factor
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Mon Feb-18-02 10:52 AM

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30. "RE: when i say lack of work..."
In response to Reply # 27


          

>i mean time consuming and roaming-centered
>work like hunting...


Yes, I know you instinctively use work to mean "that which men do".

Gathering was just as time-consuming and probably more so, since hunting can only be done in short bursts. And gathering in a pre-agricultural society *is* roaming work.


PLUS they would
>have more stagnant based activities
>during pregnancy, a time in
>which physical activities would be
>lessened and they'd be the
>focal point of higher end


Maybe, maybe not. There were many African societies (and non-African) which practiced couvade. Childcare isn't ipso facto women's work, either.

And matriarchal societies doesn't necessarily imply that women have more leisure time.

I really think that there are some rather sexist (and dare I say Eurocentric!) notions about women and labor floating around in your mind. I also think that you are making a dichotomy between "higher end" work and physical labor which is not necessarily so. As someone who often thinks work matters through while doing the dishes, I have no problem believing other women could also 'multitask.' Which was my original point.

Just cause you boyz can only think about one thing at a time. : )




-----------------------------------
The odds still favor croupiers,
But give the wheel another spin.
Things break down in different ways:
We can't, for that, omit their praise.
--Tom Disch, Entropic Villanelle

  

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Allah
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28. "I don't know about that"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          


that sounds like speculation to me.

DRE Allah allah@metalab.unc.edu
http://metalab.unc.edu/nge/physical
Physical Science Productions

_______________________
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__gigs__
__stuff__

  

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Utamaroho
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Mon Feb-18-02 10:18 AM

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29. "it is."
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

dude it's just a different starting point from which different events from history and behaviors could be explained...

______________________
STORY FROM THE SUDAN

A Catholic missionary found himself in similar difficulty with the Shilluk. He painted a delightful word picture of the beautiful and bounteous life in Europe. A Shilluk warrior stood up and said: "It cannot be true. If it were, you white men would stay in Europe instead of bothering us here." "We don't want to disturb you," the missionary said, "we only want to teach you." "Well, then," the Shilluk warrior answered, "what can you really do? Can you build a hut?" "No," the missionary said. "Or make a spear?" "No," the missionary replied. "I am unfamiliar with it." "Well, then, can you at least make pots?" The missionary acknowledged that he could not. The Shilluk warrior said, "Among us, even the women can make pots, yet you cannot do it. You are useless."

Red, Black, Green

  

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Finespeaker
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Mon Feb-18-02 05:14 PM

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34. "RE: yeah... Dr. Charles Finch in Echoes of the Old Darkland"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

Hetep! Just to add on UT, an earlier look into matriarchy can be found in Gerald Massey's "Ancient Egypt Light of the World". 2 volume set. Hetep!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
CSE presents: Lord Digga Reppin' NYC/B-MORE and the whole f$#!^n' Planet with the hot new jaun "Simply Sweet." Visit our site www.CrookedStreetz.com Click on "Merchandise" and sample the instrumental from his forthc

  

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ya Setshego
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Mon Feb-18-02 06:42 AM

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10. "WOW."
In response to Reply # 3


  

          





"Next to God we are indebted to Afrikan women, first for
giving us life and secondly for making that life worth
living." -Mary Mc Leod Bethune

"Don't Hate the PLAYA Boy...hate the GAME," Granddad Freeman of the Boondocks(7-11-99)

*Twenty-three percent of women are "autoerotic singles" — they prefer to achieve sexual satisfaction alone(source-bet.com)

*If U have won a Grammy, one of two things are at play: 1. Your shit is TIGHT
2. U are white
-(Me)

"We are not a problem people. We are merely people, who have problems."-Dorothy I. Height(from We Are Not Vanishing)


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Oooo baby I like it raw. Oooo baby I like it RAAAW!(c)ODB- Shimmy Shimmy Ya

  

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Allah
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Mon Feb-18-02 07:03 AM

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11. "RE: Women as the First Mathematicians"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          


propaganda

DRE Allah allah@metalab.unc.edu
http://metalab.unc.edu/nge/physical
Physical Science Productions

_______________________
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__gigs__
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ya Setshego
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Mon Feb-18-02 06:36 AM

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8. "When is your birthday?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"Next to God we are indebted to Afrikan women, first for
giving us life and secondly for making that life worth
living." -Mary Mc Leod Bethune

"Don't Hate the PLAYA Boy...hate the GAME," Granddad Freeman of the Boondocks(7-11-99)

*Twenty-three percent of women are "autoerotic singles" — they prefer to achieve sexual satisfaction alone(source-bet.com)

*If U have won a Grammy, one of two things are at play: 1. Your shit is TIGHT
2. U are white
-(Me)

"We are not a problem people. We are merely people, who have problems."-Dorothy I. Height(from We Are Not Vanishing)


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Oooo baby I like it raw. Oooo baby I like it RAAAW!(c)ODB- Shimmy Shimmy Ya

  

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Allah
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Mon Feb-18-02 07:14 AM

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12. "hold up"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


Peace, I come in the Scientific and Supreme Alphabetical
Name of Divine Ruler Equality Allah. Supreme Mathematics
is the Science of Life, and Knowing and Understanding
Man's Supreme Mathematical Relationship to the planets (things)
in the Universe, brings about Peace of Mind, Love Peace and
Happiness.

Now, lets cut the crap about why our babies are MADE TO LOOK
LIKE their growth is stunted in PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEMS. It's
not because of "academia", its because of Tricknowledge which
teaches our children that if they excell in science and
mathematics, then they are becoming like the caucasian white
man, which they know subconsciously is un alike. HOWEVER,
the people in academia our using the SAME METHODS that was
given to them by the ORIGINAL MAN, through the transmission,
of the sciences of arithmetic and other mathematical arts
from the hpy valley and the moorish empire, to the hellenistic
societies and the enlightenment in north west asia which
they now call europe. In MOST CASES, its not a case of
ignorance, but BOREDOM, with teachings that are already
intrinsically locked in to the Black Man's Brain and Body.
Its like somebody trying to teach you how to breath and
drink, when you ALREADY KNOW HOW TO DO IT. So no, its not
the white man's fault or academia, since we are the ones
that invented academia, universities, colleges and highschools
for the caucasian white people (temple of luxor, university
of timbuktu, etc.). So no, that is not the reason. The
reason that our babies do not want to excel in academia is
because of subconscious programming by the parents who was
fed the wrong foods, and who pass their fear of scholasticship
subconsciously to the babies, because they know that the
same ones who advocate scholarship beat and kill the ones amongst
the original people who tried to read write and do arithmetic.
So that terrordome syndrome is passed on subconsciously to
the babies, and that is where the cycle starts. Therefore,
the remedy is to teach the parents and the babies the
KNOWLEDGE OF SELF, at the early and infancy stage, to kill this
week germ (life) propagated amongst our people from eating
the wrong foods, and from fearing to fall victim of the law
of jim crow. Then they can come in once again and be the
instructors educators and researchers that we were before
in the ACADEMIC COMMUNITY that WE INVENTED.
The Black Man is the Father of Civilization, God of the Universe.
Peace.

DRE Allah allah@metalab.unc.edu
http://metalab.unc.edu/nge/physical
Physical Science Productions

_______________________
"Arm Leg Leg Arm Hate." c/o desus
_______________________
Divine Ruler
http://www.facebook.com/divineruler
__gigs__
__stuff__

  

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thrill_factor
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Mon Feb-18-02 08:50 AM

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14. "RE: Ancient Egyptian Mathematics (Lecture Review)"
In response to Reply # 0


          



They had advanced knowledge
>of algebra, trigonometry, and at
>least the beginning phases of
>calculus (although whether they actually
>HAD the ability for calculus
>is still under debate).


Come on, Mr. Global African Presence, surely that parenthetical remark should be about Bhaskara and Madhava.

viz. Bhaskara (1114 A.D. -1185 A.D, Karnataka) was the first to declare that any number divided by zero is infinity and that the sum of any number and infinity is also infinity. He is famous for his book Siddhanta Siromani (1150 A.D.). Bhaskara introduced chakrawal, or the cyclic method, to solve algebraic equations. Six centuries later, European mathematicians like Galois, Euler and Lagrange rediscovered this method and called it "inverse cyclic". Bhaskara can also be called the founder of differential calculus. He gave an example of what is now called "differential coefficient" and the basic idea of what is now called "Rolle's theorem". Five centuries later, Newton and Leibniz developed this subject.

Viz. Around the beginning of the sixteenth century Madhava developed his own system of calculus based on his knowledge of trigonometry. He was an untutored mathematician from Kerala, and preceded Newton and Liebnitz by more than a century.


But speaking of math and black radicalism, please see:
http://www.algebra.org/equations.html



-----------------------------------
The odds still favor croupiers,
But give the wheel another spin.
Things break down in different ways:
We can't, for that, omit their praise.
--Tom Disch, Entropic Villanelle

  

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Utamaroho
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Mon Feb-18-02 08:52 AM

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15. "what was the point of this response?"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

______________________
STORY FROM THE SUDAN

A Catholic missionary found himself in similar difficulty with the Shilluk. He painted a delightful word picture of the beautiful and bounteous life in Europe. A Shilluk warrior stood up and said: "It cannot be true. If it were, you white men would stay in Europe instead of bothering us here." "We don't want to disturb you," the missionary said, "we only want to teach you." "Well, then," the Shilluk warrior answered, "what can you really do? Can you build a hut?" "No," the missionary said. "Or make a spear?" "No," the missionary replied. "I am unfamiliar with it." "Well, then, can you at least make pots?" The missionary acknowledged that he could not. The Shilluk warrior said, "Among us, even the women can make pots, yet you cannot do it. You are useless."

Red, Black, Green

  

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thrill_factor
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Mon Feb-18-02 09:11 AM

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17. "RE: what was the point of this response?"
In response to Reply # 15


          



Uh, that whether or not calculus was discussed by ancient Egyptians, it's pretty indisputable that calculus was developed by people you consider Afrikan before Europeans got around to it. That a discussion of math and contemporary African-Americans could usefully note the work of Robert Moses. What was unclear?


  

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poetx
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Mon Feb-18-02 09:33 AM

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22. "that's a good link. thanks!"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

peace & blessings,

x.

peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just
focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and
not having much to show for it. (c) mad

  

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thrill_factor
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Mon Feb-18-02 11:11 AM

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31. "RE: that's a good link. thanks!"
In response to Reply # 22


          

>peace & blessings,
>
>x.


at least someone understood the point of my response! : )


-----------------------------------
The odds still favor croupiers,
But give the wheel another spin.
Things break down in different ways:
We can't, for that, omit their praise.
--Tom Disch, Entropic Villanelle

  

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naame
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Mon Feb-18-02 01:00 PM

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33. "thank you my brother"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

you adding more fuel to the fire

vivrant for moderator!

he ain't got shit else to do.



America has imported more warlord theocracy from Afghanistan than it has exported democracy.

  

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Ananse
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Tue Feb-19-02 05:19 AM

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35. "My heads been in"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

the freakin' clouds. How did I miss this one?

<--- Peace to Bayete Ross-Smith.

  

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Sopdet
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Tue Feb-19-02 01:50 PM

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36. "RE: Ancient Egyptian Mathematics (Lecture Review)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Yes, the egyptains did use a complex set of mathematicas,but I don't think they exactly used calculas. I never knew that people discovered calculas before Issac Newton,but you learn something new every day. There is also a good book dealing with African mathematics as a whole,called africa counts,and the author of this book discovered that the yoruba people of nigeria,which may have some form of ancestral linkage with kmt,had a complex number system,which they use mostly for divination.
The funny thing also is there is evidence that the so called phythagoras theorem was use by many people before phythagoras,and they have found evidence this in egyptain tombs.
Thales,which is considered the fiorsat true philospher also visited egypt,but you never hear people like mary leftowitz point stuff like this out.

http://www.millersville.edu/~deidam/m301/yor1.htm yoruba number system
http://www.prenhall.com/divisions/esm/app/ph-elem/multicult/html/chap3.html
Africa Counts : Number and Pattern in African Culture
by Claudia Zaslavsky


http://www.theblackmarket.com/letsrap.htm little bit about the pythagorian theorem and yoruba number system

http://www.rpi.edu/~eglash/eglash.htm

Thomas Fuller

African slave and mathematician 1710-1790


In most discussions of people with extraordinary powers of mental calculation, there is some mention of Thomas Fuller, an African, shipped to America in 1724 as a slave at the age of 14. He was born in 1710 Africa somewhere between present day Liberia and Benin. Late in his life his remarkable powers of calculation made him a tool of abolitionists due demonstrate blacks are not mentally inferior to whites. After is death, Fuller became a tool of psychics and psychologists. The latter, while denying blacks of mental abilities, supported the notion of idiot savant. Fuller, though extraordinarily quick at calculations, appears not so much the equal of idiot savants as someone who had taught himself quick calculations. Many of those who met him advertise his general self-taught intelligence and decried the system which prevented him from formal education.

Our present new understanding of mathematics in Africa at that time allows us to claim that when Thomas Fuller arrived in 1724 Virginia, he had already developed his calculation abilities. His learning of number words, a numeration system, of arithmetical operations, of riddles and mathematical games, etc. The extant evidence of this is not great, although we do know of an astronomer/mathematician, Muhammad ibn Muhammad, of that period from what is now called Nigeria.

Among the sparse evidence we have John Bardot's 1732 account of the abilities of the inhabitants of Fida (on the coast of Benin):

The Fidasians are so expert in keeping their accounts, that they easily reckon as exact, and as quick by memory, as we can do with pen and ink, though the sum amount to never so many thousands: which very much facilities the trade the Europeans have with them.

Thomas Clarkson backed this up in 1788 with:

It is astonishing with what facility the African brokers reckon up the exchange of European goods for slaves. One of these brokers has perhaps ten slaves to sell, and for each of these he demands ten different articles. He reduces them immediately by the head to bars, coppers, ounces ... and immediately strikes the balance.
The European, on the other hand, takes his pen, and with great deliberation, and with all the advantage of the arithmetick and letters, begins to estimate also. He is so unfortunate often, as to make a mistake; but he no sooner errs, than he is detected by this man of inferiour capacity, whom he can neither deceive in the name or quality of his goods, nor in the balance of his account.

There are surviving today, two period accounts of Thomas Fuller (both are reprinted in 1, our chief source for information on Fuller). Below is another excerpted from the Columbian Centinial , December 29, 1970, No. 707, p.123, col.32, Boston, Massachusettes. Note the reference to an ancient mathematics puzzle known to the Egyptians. Also note its pro-abolitionist conclusion:

Died- Negro Tom, the famous African Calculator, aged 80 years. He was the property of Mrs. Elizabeth Cox of Alexandria. Tom was a very black man. He was brought to this country at the age of 14, and was sold as a slave.... This man was a prodigy. Though he could never read or write, he had perfectly acquired the art of enumeration.... He could multiply seven into itself, that product by seven, and the products, so produced, by seven, for seven times. He could give the number of months, days, weeks, hours, minutes, and seconds in any period of time that any person chose to mention, allowing in his calculation for all leap years that happened in the time; he would give the number of poles, yards, feet, inches, and barley-corns in any distance, say the diameter of the earth's orbit; and in every calculation he would produce the true answer in less time than ninety-nine men out of a hundred would produce with their pens. And, what was, perhaps, more extraordinary, though interrupted in the progress of his calculation, and engaged in discourse necessary for him to begin again, but he would ... cast up plots of land. He took great notice of the lines of land which he had seen surveyed. He drew just conclusions from facts; surprisingly so, for his opportunities. Had his opportunity been equal to those of thousands of his fellow-men ... even a NEWTON himself, need have ashamed to acknowledge him a Brother in Science
http://www.math.buffalo.edu/mad/special/fuller_thomas_1710-1790.html

Muhammad ibn Muhammad al-Fullani al-Kishnawi,

an African Mathematician in the early 1700's


Born in Nigeria

Unlike the 18th century Ghanian Anto Amo, who worked and lived in Europe, Muhammad ibn Muhammad al-Fullani al-Kishnawi spent his life career in the middle east. He was a Falani from northern Nigeria. He traveled to Egypt and in 1732 he wrote a manuscript (in Arabic) of procedures for constructing magic squares up to order 11. As words of encouragement to the reader he writes:

Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art ... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.

Muhammad died in Cairo in 1741.

Note general construction methods of magic squares appeared in the countries of Islam in the 9th century, and the science of magic squares arrived there at its zenith in the 11th and 12th centuries. From the 13th century, magical and divinatary applications began to replace of mathematical study. Classical construction methods survived, however, in later treatises of a certain level, such as that by Muhammad ibn Muhammad al-Fullani al-Kishnawi.

IN your study of egyptain mathematics you might also want to check out the moscow papyrus,which is like the Rhind papyrus,but it goes into a more complex mathematics.

http://www.math.buffalo.edu/mad/special/muhammad_ibn_muhammad.html To find out more about sub saharan mathematics subcribe to the newsletter on the web site I posted
peace

  

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Sopdet
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37. "RE: Ancient Egyptian Mathematics (Lecture Review)"
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