Printer-friendly copy Email this topic to a friend
Lobby Okay Activist Archives topic #9229

Subject: "African AIDS Prevention" This topic is locked.
Previous topic | Next topic
kemetian
Charter member
1336 posts
Tue Jan-22-02 10:31 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
"African AIDS Prevention"


  

          

aka Rites of Passage, as taken from here:

http://bernard.pitzer.edu/~hfairchi/PsychDiscourse/2000/PD-OCT-2000.html#Schroeder


Prevention of HIV/AIDS Through Traditional Means: The Cultural Practice of Dipo Rites
By
Rose M. Schroeder, Ph.D. and Samuel Danquah, Ph.D.
Department of Psychology
University of Ghana, Legon

Abstract
This paper examined Dipo as a traditional means of controlling the spread of HIV/AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases in Ghana. In Africa, HIV/AIDS is believed to be spread through sex. Currently, there is no known cure for HIV/AIDS, and drugs identified as slowing its progress are financially out of reach of many African nations. The main purpose of Dipo as a transitional rite of passage in Ghana is to prevent promiscuity and premarital sex. It appears that the adoption of this rite may curtail the spread of HIV/AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases. This paper thus suggests research into Dipo and other transitional rites to help control the spread of these diseases.  Although many traditional practices have been condemned and isolated by Western societies, Dipo has resisted this condemnation and therefore has persisted. When Dipo began, HIV/AIDS and sexually transmitted diseases were not thought of. Society thought of educating girls about preserving their dignity, the values of marriage and the good morals of the Krobo woman by emphasizing sexual abstinence before marriage. Now, Dipo could play a very important role in the preventing and controlling the spread of HIV/AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases in Ghana.

The Origin of Dipo
It is believed that there was once a noble Krobo man who had two wives. The elder wife had only male children while the younger wife had only female children.  The custom at that time was to circumcise the boys between the ages of 10 and 14 years. The circumcision was accompanied by an elaborate celebration to initiate boys into manhood. The pride and the glamour that went with the circumcision became a source of envy to the younger wife who had only female children. This problem was presented to Nana Kloweki, the priestess of Manya Krobo. To appease the younger wife, Dipo was instituted as a puberty rite for girls between the ages of 14 and 21 years.

Nana Kloweki, by virtue of her priestly leadership, assumed the role of spiritual, moral, social, and economic leader, as well as a teacher of the adolescent girls. The training of the girls included personal hygiene and some vocations. The girls were also taught home management and childcare. They were assessed in these various areas of their training and symbolic marks that are similar in concept to tattoo were inscribed on their bodies for successfully completing the training. In all, there were three traditional marks; the first was inscribed between the thumb and the wrist for personal hygiene.

The second mark was inscribed on the girls belly (Fomi Bo) after thorough examination by Nana Kloweki to verify that the girl was fully developed for both marriage and child bearing. This mark signified maturity and readiness for child bearing. The essence of the Fomi Bo was to make sure that only mature and certified girls were accepted as ready physically to have children. This was also a check on teenage pregnancy.  The third mark was made at the back of the waist. It was a taboo to let any man except her husband touch or hold her waist. The essence of this mark was to prevent promiscuity, adultery, and premarital sex.

Dipo as means of HIV/AIDS Prevention

The second aspect of the training consisted of moral training and self discipline. It was believed that any girl (before Dipo) who was sexually active, had an abortion, or was pregnant, would fall down during the ceremony and bring a calamity to her parents. This belief put some responsibility on parents to monitor their daughter’s movements and to help uphold their virginity and the dignity of the family. The purpose of this training was to help the girls preserve their virginity which to some extent also curtailed the spread of sexually transmitted diseases including HIV and AIDS. The successful candidates were "outdoored" amid singing and dancing with merry making. After the rites, the girls were ready for marriage. The Dipo rites dictate when virginity can be lost and whom the girl could have sex with since it is a taboo to let any man except her husband touch or hold her waist. Dipo rites thus emphasize prevention of sexually transmitted diseases including HIV/AIDS, prevention of immorality and teenage pregnancy, and preparation for marriage. If the girls adhere to the teachings, they will keep themselves from sex until marriage and that could prevent the incidence and the spread of HIV/ AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases.

Stages of Dipo
The Dipo rites involve many activities divided into stages. The first stage involves replacing the normal waist beads with a single string with only one reddish bead tied to it. A very large red lion cloth is then affixed to the string both in front and at the back of the girl to cover her genital organ. A guide then leads each girl to stand on a sacred antelope skin in a room saying to her, “ine nene dze wakasi-mi peehe ha mo, ne opee klo-yo” meaning, “I am performing our traditional rite for you, that you may become a Krobo woman.”

This is followed by the guide helping the girls to grind millet. The essence of this ritual is to introduce the girls to one of the most important duties of a Krobo woman, that is, grinding of millet for the household.

On Saturday the girls are sent to a stream where they are cleansed and dressed up. Goats presented by their parents are sacrificed with merry making. The blood of the goat is believed to wash away any evil thing that may be harmful to the healthy development of the girls toward mature womanhood and motherhood.

Changes in Dipo
The Dipo rites originally lasted between one and three years. Nevertheless, with the advent of Christianity, Islam and formal education, the duration for the training has been reduced to one week to enable the girls to go back to school. With the misconception of what rites of passage are, Western culture perceives all rites as devilish. Westernization has influenced Ghanaians to also to see Dipo as devilish and fetish, consequently, putting a stop to it. As a result, parents who are Christians are suspended from their various churches for allowing their daughters to undergo Dipo.  Also, with Western influence, people now perceive Dipo as exposing girls’ naked bodies to the public since formal dressing is not encouraged on the day of the outdooring. This has made adolescent girls shy away from the ceremonies. As a result, girls as young as four years may undergo Dipo since at this age they are innocent and see nothing wrong with being naked.
Another reason for the early participation of young girls is the enormous expense involved. Going through Dipo is relatively cheaper for the young girl than the adolescent. Girls are also teased by their friends for undergoing Dipo. Recent developments indicate only girls 15 years and above should be allowed to undergo Dipo.

In the past, those who did not take part in the rites were isolated and were driven away from the community. Presently, due to emigration of traditional people and the influence of religion and Western culture, people view Dipo as fetish. Christians and Muslims see puberty rites as devilish and the educated elites see it as outmoded. For example, Teyegaga (1984) sees Dipo as an outmoded custom that is now more of a religion than training for marriage. Due to the influence of both religion and Western culture, a large section of parents feel no remorse when their daughters do not take part in the Dipo rites. However, the irony is that these same parents will not let their sons marry a girl who has not undergone the Dipo rites since it is believed that uninitiated girls are unclean and do bring a bad omen to the family. This belief shows the importance of Dipo rites to the Krobos.

Summary
It is a fact that there is currently no cure for HIV/AIDS (Comer, 1995).  In addition, the drugs that have been found to slow down the progress of AIDS are very expensive and beyond the reach of African governments. There is therefore the need to explore other traditional methods of preventing the spread of the disease. Since HIV/AIDS is mainly sexually transmitted in Africa, Dipo that is a used to prevent promiscuity and infidelity could serve as a tool for the prevention of all forms of sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV/AIDS, and teenage pregnancy which is a problem facing many nations.

It is possible that other ethnic groups have similar transitional practices that we are not aware of. It is time we rediscover these practices and study how they can be used as mechanisms for controlling sexually transmitted diseases.
For this proposal to be effective and implemented, research into the Dipo is very important.  To encourage such practices, it is proposed that a link be established between the psychologists in Ghana and the organizers of Dipo and other transitional rites:
 

* To educate the leaders on prevention of HIV and modernization of these rites
* To educate the girls about the transitional rites
* To encourage a dialogue between the traditionalists and the churches to explore systematic ways of using these rites to help prevent HIV that would be acceptable to both the churches and the traditionalists.

 Further, due to the exclusion of males from the rites, research is needed to find out what is done or can be done for males that would help develop a systematic way of preventing the spread of HIV/ AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases among them.

References
Burton, R. V. & Whiting, J. W. M. (1961). The absent father and cross-sex identity. Merrill Palmer Quarterly, 7, 85-95.

Comer, R. J. (1995). Abnormal Psychology. W. H. Freeman and Company, New York.

Narh, A. J. (1998). The impact of Christianity on the Dipo custom of the Krobos. Unpublished dissertation, Department of Sociology, University of Ghana.

Teyegaga, B. D. (1984). Dipo custom and Christian faith. Jupiter Printing Press Ltd. Accra, Ghana.

Address for correspondence:  Dr. Rose Schroeder, Department of Psychology, University of Ghana, P.O. Box 84, Legon, Ghana, West Africa.







Shemhotep
************
"If u want a butterfly u got to B a
butterfly" - India.Arie, Butterfly

"the wages of sin is death"
Romans ch.6 v.23

"If the essence of 'love'... is giving
selflessly or sacrificing for others,
how can it then be equated with
something that you can 'fall into or
out of'?" - Ra Un Nefer Amen,
Afrocentric Guide to a Spiritual Union

Kemetian
--------------------------------------
check it out:
www.natureworksforyou.co
m

"Pour libation for your father
and mother who rest in the
valley of the dead. God will
witness your action and
accept it. Do not forget to
do this

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top


Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
Good article
Jan 22nd 2002
1
interesting.
Jan 22nd 2002
2
oh u shd know me better than that
Jan 22nd 2002
3
      true. i was on some click
Jan 22nd 2002
4
           My uncle's a psychiatrist
Jan 22nd 2002
5
^
Jan 23rd 2002
6
swaziland
Jan 23rd 2002
7
two links about it
Jan 23rd 2002
8
      good looking out!
Jan 23rd 2002
9
           RE:Good looking out
Jan 24th 2002
10
           its a good post
Jan 24th 2002
11
                RE: its a good post???
Jan 28th 2002
13
                     Why not?
Jan 30th 2002
14
                          RE: Why not?
Jan 30th 2002
16
                               RE: Why not?
Jan 30th 2002
18
^
Jan 28th 2002
12
Not to sound Daft......
Jan 30th 2002
15
RE: Not to sound Daft......
Jan 30th 2002
17
i want to play the devils advocate...:
Jan 30th 2002
19
      RE: i want to play the devils advocate...:
Jan 31st 2002
21
           devils advocate:
Jan 31st 2002
22
                we r looking at it differently
Feb 01st 2002
30
                     RE: we r looking at it differently
Feb 02nd 2002
36
Given the fact
Jan 31st 2002
20
prostitutes
Jan 31st 2002
23
RE: prostitutes
Jan 31st 2002
24
      tell me your stories
Jan 31st 2002
25
           i've completely gone off of the topic
Jan 31st 2002
26
                RE: i've completely gone off of the topic
Jan 31st 2002
27
                     well let's see
Feb 01st 2002
31
RE: Given the fact
Jan 31st 2002
28
      i'm really interested in this idea
Feb 01st 2002
29
      i'm not convinced
RevUrb
Feb 01st 2002
32
      RE: i'm not convinced
Feb 01st 2002
33
      RE: i'm not convinced
Feb 02nd 2002
38
           RE: i'm not convinced
Feb 03rd 2002
39
                RE: i'm not convinced
Feb 03rd 2002
42
                     RE: i'm not convinced
Feb 04th 2002
46
                          RE: i'm not convinced
Feb 04th 2002
47
                               ain't no need to get to raising caps
Feb 04th 2002
54
      RE: i'm really interested in this idea
Feb 02nd 2002
37
      RE:EXACTLY
Feb 01st 2002
35
so in your experience
Feb 03rd 2002
41
      RE: so in your experience
Feb 03rd 2002
43
           do you think...
RevUrb
Feb 04th 2002
44
           RE: do you think...
Feb 04th 2002
48
           i c
Feb 04th 2002
45
           RE: i c
Feb 04th 2002
51
                i'm just asking questions
Feb 04th 2002
53
           RE: so in your experience
Feb 04th 2002
49
                RE: so in your experience
Feb 04th 2002
50
                     RE: so in your experience
Feb 04th 2002
52
That's Peace.
Feb 01st 2002
34
Because a.l.l.a.h. and g.o.d.
Feb 03rd 2002
40
      RE: Because a.l.l.a.h. and g.o.d.
Feb 06th 2002
55
^ (from p.7)
Feb 18th 2002
56
RE: ^ (from p.7)
Feb 18th 2002
57
      ^
Feb 26th 2002
58

Shelly
Charter member
15886 posts
Tue Jan-22-02 11:13 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
1. "Good article"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

if it works for them, then so be it. People do not realize that what works here in America, may not apply to other countries. Hopefully it will cut down the numbers of new cases.


Shit happens

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

poetx
Charter member
58768 posts
Tue Jan-22-02 11:52 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
2. "interesting."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

at first i thought that this was another 'african-men-raping-african-girls-in-superstitious-attempt-to-escape-hiv' posts, and i was thinking, damn, my spirit can't take that today.

i HOPE this can help (ie, the adaptation of existing cultural 'rites' to quell the spread of hiv/aids). without getting into the particulars, i think its fairly evident that whatever is done to combat aids needs to be done in a manner that is consistent with the culture of the people affected. case in point, how the one-size-fits-all (no pun intended) aids prevention efforts in the US, developed by and for gay white males, have been successful in the target communities and less effectual among others.



peace & blessings,

x.



peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just
focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and
not having much to show for it. (c) mad

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

    
kemetian
Charter member
1336 posts
Tue Jan-22-02 12:10 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
3. "oh u shd know me better than that"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

>at first i thought that this
>was another 'african-men-raping-african-girls-in-superstitious-attempt-to-escape-hiv' posts,


>case in point, how
>the one-size-fits-all (no pun intended)

yeah right

Shemhotep
************
"If u want a butterfly u got to B a
butterfly" - India.Arie, Butterfly

"the wages of sin is death"
Romans ch.6 v.23

"If the essence of 'love'... is giving
selflessly or sacrificing for others,
how can it then be equated with
something that you can 'fall into or
out of'?" - Ra Un Nefer Amen,
Afrocentric Guide to a Spiritual Union

Kemetian
--------------------------------------
check it out:
www.natureworksforyou.co
m

"Pour libation for your father
and mother who rest in the
valley of the dead. God will
witness your action and
accept it. Do not forget to
do this

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

        
poetx
Charter member
58768 posts
Tue Jan-22-02 12:28 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
4. "true. i was on some click"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

first, axe questions later move... i know u try and stay uplifting (pre-emptive argument: i'm not saying that we should never discuss negative stuff).



peace & blessings,

x.


January is Kool Keith quote month, for lack of anything else:

"I never hearda you stupid, what's your name man??"

"Rappers don't know, I'm out the hospital/
cold buggin' and illin' like Dr. Doolittle"

"I'll chew your ass like monkeys on Wild Kingdom"

"you call yourself GOD, can you make it rain?/
can you tell me now what I'm thinkin' in my brain?"

"under your arms, you're kickin power and musty"

"word to mom, I'm in my own world.../
galaxy raaaaaays... powerful"

peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just
focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and
not having much to show for it. (c) mad

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

            
kemetian
Charter member
1336 posts
Tue Jan-22-02 12:43 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
5. "My uncle's a psychiatrist"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

he deals w/ ppl who have relocated here from the caribbean and time and again he finds that ppl who exhibit the dis-eases that ppl up here have are the ones who have been quickest to give up our way of life. no doubt u can't replicate every single thing up here, but the further away they move from it, the more "american" di-seases they have. all these whole bunch of disorders ppl have up here, u'd be hard-pressed to find back home.

u c if ppl would just stick to what they know instead of running down these ppl's crazy culture, they'd be a lot better off. mind u, i don't rule out the Tuskegee Experiment-like set-ups i've been hearing about on the continent. but i think it's an attack on the indigenous way of life from all sides really. now i hear there's a television station out of South Africa that transmits to a great portion of the continent, nonsense shows most sensible ppl here try to AVOID.

i just find that when We do We, We are best off.
Shemhotep
************
"If u want a butterfly u got to B a
butterfly" - India.Arie, Butterfly

"the wages of sin is death"
Romans ch.6 v.23

"If the essence of 'love'... is giving
selflessly or sacrificing for others,
how can it then be equated with
something that you can 'fall into or
out of'?" - Ra Un Nefer Amen,
Afrocentric Guide to a Spiritual Union

Kemetian
--------------------------------------
check it out:
www.natureworksforyou.co
m

"Pour libation for your father
and mother who rest in the
valley of the dead. God will
witness your action and
accept it. Do not forget to
do this

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

Solarus
Charter member
3604 posts
Wed Jan-23-02 06:17 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
6. "^"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

Federisco
Charter member
5002 posts
Wed Jan-23-02 07:30 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
7. "swaziland"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Some weeks ago i read about what king Mswati III did in his country (Swaziland in southern africa)..... It has much to do with the article you posted above

(i translated it from norwegian..)
...."If the young girls at high school refuses to agree with (the rite of passage?), they won't be allowed access to school. It is the notoriously famous King Mswati III of Swaziland who is doing his business again, according to the news agency Press Association.

Latest news from Swaziland says that single, female students can be expelled from school if they refuse to promiss to not have sexual intercourse. Principal Michael Dlamini at Mhlatane high school says girls will drop straight out of school if they don't agree with or go against the (rite of passage). The new rule is one of the consequences of the king's decicion to bring back the traditional sex limitations, and it will come into effect as the next semester begins at 27th of january.

According to the traditional (ritage of passage), umcwascho, it is not possible to have sexual intercouse with persons under 18 years of age. The traditional rite(?) also says that women younger than 23 has to carry a small piece of wood in their hair tie/band."

........it was posted in a section where they have strange news. It didnt mention AIDS/HIV once.. But it is easy to see that the king did it to fight AIDS/HIV spreading. They mentioned it in another article about the king thou:

"The king is frustrated at the high number of HIV positive in his country, and describes teenage girls as «flowers which should be protected».

Over 25 percent of the adults in Swaziland have been infected by HIV, according to UNAIDS. The disease has already killed ten thousands of the population of the country."

we got a swazi on okayplaye so i'll tell her to drop by this post

░▒▓█▌¹♥▐█▓▒░

proud okayphotographer: http://www.okayplayer.com/okayphotographers/

"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." — Marshall McLuhan

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

    
Federisco
Charter member
5002 posts
Wed Jan-23-02 07:36 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
8. "two links about it"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

http://www.africaonline.co.sz/people/nedwallace/
And on this google page there are many pages and articles
http://www.google.com/search?q=swaziland+aids

░▒▓█▌¹♥▐█▓▒░

proud okayphotographer: http://www.okayplayer.com/okayphotographers/

"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." — Marshall McLuhan

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

        
kemetian
Charter member
1336 posts
Wed Jan-23-02 08:58 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
9. "good looking out!"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

Shemhotep
************
"If u want a butterfly u got to B a
butterfly" - India.Arie, Butterfly

"the wages of sin is death"
Romans ch.6 v.23

"If the essence of 'love'... is giving
selflessly or sacrificing for others,
how can it then be equated with
something that you can 'fall into or
out of'?" - Ra Un Nefer Amen,
Afrocentric Guide to a Spiritual Union

Kemetian
--------------------------------------
check it out:
www.natureworksforyou.co
m

"Pour libation for your father
and mother who rest in the
valley of the dead. God will
witness your action and
accept it. Do not forget to
do this

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

            
earthsista
Charter member
4408 posts
Thu Jan-24-02 12:09 AM

Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
10. "RE:Good looking out"
In response to Reply # 9


          

I'm the Swazi Player, don't have time to reply but this seems like a good post. I dunno when I'll be back on okp but I'm hoping they'll achive this post, so if wbgirl is reading- please achive this post:)

Peace
Earth


My uncle Slick Rick

Kid 1 - I'm tired
Kid 2 - Me too
Kid 1 - Uncle Ricky
SR - Hmmm?
Kid 1 - Could you tell us a bedtime story, like you used to?

"I am a woman with a mission and a past to undo
I don't need a gun I've got a microphone and a melody or two"- Nikka Costa


AIM:earthsoul77

~sig~
When ppl show you who they are- BELIEVE them. ~Maya Angelou

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

            
Federisco
Charter member
5002 posts
Thu Jan-24-02 12:04 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
11. "its a good post"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

Since this is okayACTIVIST, here are the links i found after i searched abit:

http://www.mg.co.za/mg/news/2000apr1/5apr-swazi_aids.html
"Traditional leaders rescue Swaziland's Aids orphans
A new programme uses Swaziland's traditional community structure to rescue Aids orphans from life on the street.
Swaziland's orphans, whose parents have succumbed to Aids, are having their plight addressed by an innovative programme based on the tiny kingdom's greatest asset - its close-knit traditional society."

http://www.swaziweb.net/aids.html
"The Swaziland AIDS Orphan.School fee fund has set it self the task of establishing a school fee fund in order to at least provide the needy children with this basic need therby giving them a chance to earn a living once adult and in order to aliviate the problems caused by an increased number of Street kids if this problem is not takled.

A donation of 50,- US $ can help one child attend school for one full year. We apeal to everybody to send a donation (even US $ 1,- is apreciated)"



.....and a link i think utamaroho's gonna like (im waiting for the -g- word):
http://www.aidsinafrica.com/

░▒▓█▌¹♥▐█▓▒░

proud okayphotographer: http://www.okayplayer.com/okayphotographers/

"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." — Marshall McLuhan

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                
jenNjuice
Charter member
3527 posts
Mon Jan-28-02 08:59 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
13. "RE: its a good post???"
In response to Reply # 11


          

since i been posting here i have yet to see anything about aids preventional methods for african americans/hispanics-latinos????

"The only thing we wanted for our country was the right to a decent existence, to dignity without hypocrisy , to independence without restrictions... The day will come when history will have its say."-Lumumba

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                    
kemetian
Charter member
1336 posts
Wed Jan-30-02 06:07 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
14. "Why not?"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

>since i been posting here i
>have yet to see anything
>about aids preventional methods for
>african americans/hispanics-latinos????

i mean why can't these ancient methods be applied to ppl you mentioned above? the point is that we've had the answer all along. r A-As and Latinos somehow unable to be abstinent? please explain your stance for me JNJ.

Shemhotep
************
"If u want a butterfly u got to B a
butterfly" - India.Arie, Butterfly

"the wages of sin is death"
Romans ch.6 v.23

"If the essence of 'love'... is giving
selflessly or sacrificing for others,
how can it then be equated with
something that you can 'fall into or
out of'?" - Ra Un Nefer Amen,
Afrocentric Guide to a Spiritual Union

Kemetian
--------------------------------------
check it out:
www.natureworksforyou.co
m

"Pour libation for your father
and mother who rest in the
valley of the dead. God will
witness your action and
accept it. Do not forget to
do this

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                        
jenNjuice
Charter member
3527 posts
Wed Jan-30-02 08:55 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
16. "RE: Why not?"
In response to Reply # 14


          

what i meant to say is that i haven't seen anything since i been here that decided to attack aids as it concerns the african american/hispanics/carribean community. although the 'universal method' is a nice idea it is an unrealistic one. unrealistic meaning what is right for one culture may not be right (the right method) for another. maybe im just talking i haven't had the opportunity to read the article but as soon as i do i will get back to you. peace.

"The only thing we wanted for our country was the right to a decent existence, to dignity without hypocrisy , to independence without restrictions... The day will come when history will have its say."-Lumumba

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                            
Cre8
Charter member
17379 posts
Wed Jan-30-02 09:59 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
18. "RE: Why not?"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

I know what you mean. The only time AIDS/HIV is addressed on a regular in the black/latino community is through the gay/lesbian newpapers.

I think Dipo could work on a universal level being that its somewhat like the scouts. Just about every country has their own version of the scouts and the moral base is quite similar. Unfortunately if its not started or headed by whites then it might not work. It seems every culture seems to jump on the band wagon when white is involved. One example of this is the YME breast cancer foundation. After YME then other cultures began to develop their own breast cancer foundations.

Food/Drink PlayersCookbook Info:
To help: L9 Health Clinic http://www.commongroundrelief.org/node/242
DEADLINE: November 22, 2006
Please submit your recipes to playerscookbook@yahoo.com or inbox and don't forget PHOTOS.

*********************************

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

Federisco
Charter member
5002 posts
Mon Jan-28-02 08:25 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
12. "^"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


░▒▓█▌¹♥▐█▓▒░

proud okayphotographer: http://www.okayplayer.com/okayphotographers/

"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." — Marshall McLuhan

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

M2
Charter member
10072 posts
Wed Jan-30-02 06:42 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
15. "Not to sound Daft......"
In response to Reply # 0


          


Or even disrespect these people's traditions...

But considering none of us live in Ghana and we have an AIDS problem right here in America.....

.....and with respect to developing a solution that is adaptable to multiple cultures and people.......


....wouldn't it be a better idea to teach young MEN and WOMEN to love their bodies, not let people disrespect their bodies, teach them about sex with respect to the physical act and how to deal with on an emotional level, teach them to be comfortable with sex, teach them about sexually transmitted diseases and how to make intelligent, rational decisions about sex and potential sex partners?


I have no problems with people teaching their kids abstinance, but (In my experience) that usually leads to sexually repressed adults who have little knowledge about sex itself, diseases, birth control methods (Important to married couples), and how to make intelligent decisions about sex and partners.

When you've known women who've gotten HIV and other SDS from their Husbands, women who "waited" for marriage, but weren't equipped with the information to make intelligent choices about sex....you get jaded.

I like the sound Dipo, but it seems to leave out key information (to me) that could bit the child in the ass later on in life...

Waiting until you're ready to have sex with the right person, is 10000x more important (IMHO), then merely waiting for marriage to protect the dignity of the family.


Just my opinion......



Peace,






M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

    
Cre8
Charter member
17379 posts
Wed Jan-30-02 09:51 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
17. "RE: Not to sound Daft......"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

<<....wouldn't it be a better idea to teach young MEN and WOMEN to love their bodies, not let people disrespect their bodies, teach them about sex with respect to the physical act and how to deal with on an emotional level, teach them to be comfortable with sex, teach them about sexually transmitted diseases and how to make intelligent, rational decisions about sex and potential sex partners?>>

This was pretty much taught in public grammer and high school.
But on personal levels kids usually get more info from other kids and television and less from their parents or positive rolemodels. AIDS/HIV is not a personal issue and needs to be faught with unity. If Dipo unites girls in a positive way to not have premarital sex,lowering their chances of catching a STD or AIDS/HIV and teenage pregnancy then whats the problem?

As for "women who "waited" for marriage, but weren't equipped with the information to make intelligent choices about sex...(that)get jaded." There are unmarried women who still are getting jaded from one relationship to the next. One is no better than the other.




Food/Drink PlayersCookbook Info:
To help: L9 Health Clinic http://www.commongroundrelief.org/node/242
DEADLINE: November 22, 2006
Please submit your recipes to playerscookbook@yahoo.com or inbox and don't forget PHOTOS.

*********************************

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

        
Federisco
Charter member
5002 posts
Wed Jan-30-02 10:25 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
19. "i want to play the devils advocate...:"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

The Dipo has been a traditional part of the culture in parts of ghana (i assume), which i guess must have been created and slowly modified over centuries.. i think it must be very old, and has had centuries to shape into the Dipo they wrote about in the article up there. And it has also had centuries to spread and become a part of the life in culture(s) in ghana

..........can you just make up something quick that is similar and works for americans? ive heard about fastfood, but fasttradition?

There.. i'm done.

░▒▓█▌¹♥▐█▓▒░

proud okayphotographer: http://www.okayplayer.com/okayphotographers/

"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." — Marshall McLuhan

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

            
kemetian
Charter member
1336 posts
Thu Jan-31-02 12:38 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
21. "RE: i want to play the devils advocate...:"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

>The Dipo has been a traditional
>part of the culture in
>parts of ghana (i assume),
>which i guess must have
>been created and slowly modified
>over centuries.. i think it
>must be very old, and
>has had centuries to shape
>into the Dipo they wrote
>about in the article up
>there. And it has also
>had centuries to spread and
>become a part of the
>life in culture(s) in ghana
>
>
>..........can you just make up something
>quick that is similar and
>works for americans? ive heard
>about fastfood, but fasttradition?
>
>There.. i'm done.

it's not about "making something up." it's adapting what is already OURS to a new location.


Shemhotep
************
"If u want a butterfly u got to B a
butterfly" - India.Arie, Butterfly

"the wages of sin is death"
Romans ch.6 v.23

"If the essence of 'love'... is giving
selflessly or sacrificing for others,
how can it then be equated with
something that you can 'fall into or
out of'?" - Ra Un Nefer Amen,
Afrocentric Guide to a Spiritual Union

Kemetian
--------------------------------------
check it out:
www.natureworksforyou.co
m

"Pour libation for your father
and mother who rest in the
valley of the dead. God will
witness your action and
accept it. Do not forget to
do this

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                
Federisco
Charter member
5002 posts
Thu Jan-31-02 01:06 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
22. "devils advocate:"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

>>..........can you just make up something
>>quick that is similar and
>>works for americans? ive heard
>>about fastfood, but fasttradition?
>
>it's not about "making something up."
>it's adapting what is already
>OURS to a new location.

Still, thou.. the tradition has had centuries to form and grow deep roots within the culture in ghana (i guess). It goes against the nature of a tradition to suddenly be introduced in one flash

(--enough devil's advocate.--)

But yes.. Perhaps it will work in america because it is a culture of much fast(insert a word here) already. And if it would work it would of course do very much good and important work (..and the devil's advocate deserves a kick in the ass for trying to critisize it)

-•-•- ••-• • -•• • •-•-•- •-•-•

"And finding out how Americans see the world is the scariest shit ever.... I swear, some of y'all really need to travel." - tohunga

"I was walkin towards this kat and I stumbled a lil bit but he caught me and I told him I’d send him a postcard from that trip." - Ts_Aura9

░▒▓█▌¹♥▐█▓▒░

proud okayphotographer: http://www.okayplayer.com/okayphotographers/

"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." — Marshall McLuhan

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                    
kemetian
Charter member
1336 posts
Fri Feb-01-02 05:37 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
30. "we r looking at it differently"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

as opposed to u r seing it the wrong way

i look at it like this, altho this wasn't the initial intention of the post. u r right this tradition probably developed over a long period of time AND it worked back then AND it would work now (to curb the spread of AIDS in addition to all of the other benefits). THIS is y i think it can be adopted/adapted. now i don't think u can just take a baobab plant from Senegal and plop it down in my backyard and expect it to grow. necessarily there will be modifications, but as i c it, there is an arrogance, particularly among americans, that prevents them from looking at other cultures to solve their problems. how is it that poor little cuba continues to put out the best and brightest medical students? surely an abundance of technological resources isn't the way they have done it. it's y i go to an Asian herbalist for a check up over your typical physician. Europeans don't have a very long medical history, they haven't had much time to refine their methods of healing AND the results, to me anyway, do not convince me that their methods work better than than the ones that have been around for a millennium or 2. just like historically there is nothing to convince me that the western way of approaching relationships will curb the spread of STDs, ensure healthy happy communities, equality between the sexes, etc.

anyway that's it 4 me.


>>>..........can you just make up something
>>>quick that is similar and
>>>works for americans? ive heard
>>>about fastfood, but fasttradition?
>>
>>it's not about "making something up."
>>it's adapting what is already
>>OURS to a new location.
>
>Still, thou.. the tradition has had
>centuries to form and grow
>deep roots within the culture
>in ghana (i guess). It
>goes against the nature of
>a tradition to suddenly be
>introduced in one flash
>
>(--enough devil's advocate.--)
>
>But yes.. Perhaps it will work
>in america because it is
>a culture of much fast(insert
>a word here) already. And
>if it would work it
>would of course do very
>much good and important work
>(..and the devil's advocate deserves
>a kick in the ass
>for trying to critisize it)
>
>
>-•-•- ••-• • -•• • •-•-•-
>•-•-•
>
>"And finding out how Americans see
>the world is the scariest
>shit ever.... I swear, some
>of y'all really need to
>travel." - tohunga
>
>"I was walkin towards this kat
>and I stumbled a lil
>bit but he caught me
>and I told him I’d
>send him a postcard from
>that trip." - Ts_Aura9


Shemhotep
************
"If u want a butterfly u got to B a
butterfly" - India.Arie, Butterfly

"the wages of sin is death"
Romans ch.6 v.23

"If the essence of 'love'... is giving
selflessly or sacrificing for others,
how can it then be equated with
something that you can 'fall into or
out of'?" - Ra Un Nefer Amen,
Afrocentric Guide to a Spiritual Union

Kemetian
--------------------------------------
check it out:
www.natureworksforyou.co
m

"Pour libation for your father
and mother who rest in the
valley of the dead. God will
witness your action and
accept it. Do not forget to
do this

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                        
Federisco
Charter member
5002 posts
Sat Feb-02-02 04:44 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
36. "RE: we r looking at it differently"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

>as opposed to u r seing it the wrong way

thank you

>u r right this tradition probably
>developed over a long period
>of time AND it worked
>back then AND it would
>work now (to curb the
>spread of AIDS in addition
>to all of the other
>benefits). THIS is y i
>think it can be adopted/adapted.
>now i don't think u
>can just take a baobab
>plant from Senegal and plop
>it down in my backyard
>and expect it to grow.
>necessarily there will be modifications,

Yes.. i see where you come from now, that was more what i wanted to hear. And yes, the devils advocate looks at it differently from you. The devils advocate isnt me thou, the devils advocate is what i think someone should say (to start a healthy discussion!)

The modifications are very important, then, because what you choose to modify is what makes it work well or not work at all. so.. how do you think it should be done? Try to make it work inside the system in usa, or try to start an underground movement?

is it only for afros then, since like i think you said.. methodes made for europeans shouldnt be tried used at africans. (Turning it the other way around)

>but as i c it,
>there is an arrogance, particularly
>among americans, that prevents them
>from looking at other cultures
>to solve their problems.

Europeans as well, more from some cultures/countries and less from others

> it's y i go
>to an Asian herbalist for
>a check up over your
>typical physician.

..actually, althou i do use european medicine (exczema), ive lived my whole life in a family which is very aware of health, and not the latest modern "health" but traditional norwegian and for example trad. japanese (not compared to the asian herbalist but to the next norwegian/european)

>Europeans don't have
>a very long medical history,
>they haven't had much time
>to refine their methods of
>healing AND the results, to
>me anyway, do not convince
>me that their methods work
>better than than the ones
>that have been around for
>a millennium or 2.

True... Doctors also know very little about what they recomend, and their treatment methodes are very often "fastmedicine".. the whole system is "fasttreatment" doctored to fit the world of massproduction - it is very often not only made with the body in mind, but also with the capitalism/industrialization in mind

-•-•- ••-• • -•• • •-•-•- •-•-•

"And finding out how Americans see the world is the scariest shit ever.... I swear, some of y'all really need to travel." - tohunga

"I was walkin towards this kat and I stumbled a lil bit but he caught me and I told him I’d send him a postcard from that trip." - Ts_Aura9

░▒▓█▌¹♥▐█▓▒░

proud okayphotographer: http://www.okayplayer.com/okayphotographers/

"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." — Marshall McLuhan

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

    
kemetian
Charter member
1336 posts
Thu Jan-31-02 12:36 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
20. "Given the fact"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

>
>Or even disrespect these people's traditions...
>
>
>But considering none of us live
>in Ghana and we have
>an AIDS problem right here
>in America.....
>
>.....and with respect to developing a
>solution that is adaptable to
>multiple cultures and people.......
>
that u haven't been thru the inititation how do u know that it DOESN'T do the following?
>....wouldn't it be a better idea
>to teach young MEN and
>WOMEN to love their bodies,
>not let people disrespect their
>bodies, teach them about sex
>with respect to the physical
>act and how to deal
>with on an emotional level,
>teach them to be comfortable
>with sex,
>


as far as this goes,

>teach them about
>sexually transmitted diseases and how
>to make intelligent, rational decisions
>about sex and potential sex
>partners?

there are no potential "sexual partners" b/c in non-western cultures, that's not the way ppl operate. not in terms of "sexual partners" but in terms of life partners.


>I have no problems with people
>teaching their kids abstinance, but
>(In my experience) that usually
>leads to sexually repressed adults
>who have little knowledge about
>sex itself, diseases, birth control
>methods (Important to married couples),
>and how to make intelligent
>decisions about sex and partners.


please expound on this for me: tell me how i would recognize a "sexually repressed adult?" remember traditional rites of passage are a little more than your sex education class. AND if this works for Muslims and Hindus (the ones that i know) this idea of no "partners" but a spouse, y can't this work for the average joe who wants it to work? don't we have rites of passage programs? couldn't these be used to do something similar?

>
>When you've known women who've gotten
>HIV and other SDS from
>their Husbands, women who "waited"
>for marriage, but weren't equipped
>with the information to make
>intelligent choices about sex....you get
>jaded.

ok, tell me what "intelligent choice" u should make about sex when it comes to your spouse?

>I like the sound Dipo, but
>it seems to leave out
>key information (to me) that
>could bit the child in
>the ass later on in
>life...


again u can't really know what info is being left out or included, unless u go thru the initiation yourself.

>Waiting until you're ready to have
>sex with the right person,
>is 10000x more important (IMHO),
>then merely waiting for marriage
>to protect the dignity of
>the family.

who is the "right" person? what does that mean exactly? i'm sure ppl who have several "partners" are ready to have sex w/ each "right" person.

>
>Just my opinion......
>
>
>
>Peace,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>M2


Shemhotep
************
"If u want a butterfly u got to B a
butterfly" - India.Arie, Butterfly

"the wages of sin is death"
Romans ch.6 v.23

"If the essence of 'love'... is giving
selflessly or sacrificing for others,
how can it then be equated with
something that you can 'fall into or
out of'?" - Ra Un Nefer Amen,
Afrocentric Guide to a Spiritual Union

Kemetian
--------------------------------------
check it out:
www.natureworksforyou.co
m

"Pour libation for your father
and mother who rest in the
valley of the dead. God will
witness your action and
accept it. Do not forget to
do this

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

        
Federisco
Charter member
5002 posts
Thu Jan-31-02 01:13 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
23. "prostitutes"
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

its good to see the post moving like this!

>there are no potential "sexual partners"
>b/c in non-western cultures, that's
>not the way ppl operate.
>not in terms of "sexual
>partners" but in terms of
>life partners.

Prostitutes?
were they introduced after western cultures influenced for example south africa?

I got your point thou, even if it generalized much towards both sides of the case

-•-•- ••-• • -•• • •-•-•- •-•-•

"And finding out how Americans see the world is the scariest shit ever.... I swear, some of y'all really need to travel." - tohunga

"I was walkin towards this kat and I stumbled a lil bit but he caught me and I told him I’d send him a postcard from that trip." - Ts_Aura9

░▒▓█▌¹♥▐█▓▒░

proud okayphotographer: http://www.okayplayer.com/okayphotographers/

"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." — Marshall McLuhan

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

            
jenNjuice
Charter member
3527 posts
Thu Jan-31-02 05:36 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
24. "RE: prostitutes"
In response to Reply # 23


          

>there are no potential "sexual partners"
>b/c in non-western cultures, that's
>not the way ppl operate.

the above is false...

'prostitutes'/'girlfriends'/'girls'....

i have many stories!!!

"The only thing we wanted for our country was the right to a decent existence, to dignity without hypocrisy , to independence without restrictions... The day will come when history will have its say."-Lumumba

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                
kemetian
Charter member
1336 posts
Thu Jan-31-02 06:52 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
25. "tell me your stories"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

traditional african societies, uninfluenced by western culture that encourages "sexual partners" as M2 used the term.
please.

>>there are no potential "sexual partners"
>>b/c in non-western cultures, that's
>>not the way ppl operate.
>
>the above is false...
>
>'prostitutes'/'girlfriends'/'girls'....
>
>i have many stories!!!


Shemhotep
************
"If u want a butterfly u got to B a
butterfly" - India.Arie, Butterfly

"the wages of sin is death"
Romans ch.6 v.23

"If the essence of 'love'... is giving
selflessly or sacrificing for others,
how can it then be equated with
something that you can 'fall into or
out of'?" - Ra Un Nefer Amen,
Afrocentric Guide to a Spiritual Union

Kemetian
--------------------------------------
check it out:
www.natureworksforyou.co
m

"Pour libation for your father
and mother who rest in the
valley of the dead. God will
witness your action and
accept it. Do not forget to
do this

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                    
kemetian
Charter member
1336 posts
Thu Jan-31-02 06:56 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
26. "i've completely gone off of the topic"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

this was about continental Africans sticking to tradition to combat AIDS. since it seems that utilizing something similar here is too drastic, too different, too... something for "african-americans/latinos" please give me your suggestions.


Shemhotep
************
"If u want a butterfly u got to B a
butterfly" - India.Arie, Butterfly

"the wages of sin is death"
Romans ch.6 v.23

"If the essence of 'love'... is giving
selflessly or sacrificing for others,
how can it then be equated with
something that you can 'fall into or
out of'?" - Ra Un Nefer Amen,
Afrocentric Guide to a Spiritual Union

Kemetian
--------------------------------------
check it out:
www.natureworksforyou.co
m

"Pour libation for your father
and mother who rest in the
valley of the dead. God will
witness your action and
accept it. Do not forget to
do this

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                        
jenNjuice
Charter member
3527 posts
Thu Jan-31-02 07:22 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
27. "RE: i've completely gone off of the topic"
In response to Reply # 26


          

no no no...that's not what i meant.(sorry if you felt that way.)

i think its a good idea..BUT i said its unrealistic...this board by NO means is a macrocosm of the world. the majority will not be so willingly to adapt such tradidtions, even MANY african's themselves who think/believe western culture is some what better, hence their tactic's are better for the people.

is what i mean...do you get me?

"The only thing we wanted for our country was the right to a decent existence, to dignity without hypocrisy , to independence without restrictions... The day will come when history will have its say."-Lumumba

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                            
kemetian
Charter member
1336 posts
Fri Feb-01-02 05:53 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
31. "well let's see"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

i would say "4 argument's sake" but it's not really. the term "realistic" doesn't hold much weight 4 me. u'll have to pardon me, i'm a hopeless optimist. i mean, escaping from slavery was surely seen as "unrealistic." (and how many times did Ms. Tubman make her journeys? We are known for doing things that seem "unrealistic." walking on the moon sounds "unrealistic." and movements are rarely started by a "majority." so let's assume that this is a good "idea" Cre8 i think mentioned scouts. what are some ways that we could insitute such a system. remember it doesn't have to be done by the majority... yet. we'll assume that once ppl see a good thing going, they'll be drawn to it.


'k?

Peace.
Kemetian - The Hopeless Optimist
>no no no...that's not what i
>meant.(sorry if you felt that
>way.)
>
>i think its a good idea..BUT
>i said its unrealistic...this board
>by NO means is a
>macrocosm of the world. the
>majority will not be so
>willingly to adapt such tradidtions,
>even MANY african's themselves who
>think/believe western culture is some
>what better, hence their tactic's
>are better for the people.
>
>
>is what i mean...do you get
>me?


Shemhotep
************
"If u want a butterfly u got to B a
butterfly" - India.Arie, Butterfly

"the wages of sin is death"
Romans ch.6 v.23

"If the essence of 'love'... is giving
selflessly or sacrificing for others,
how can it then be equated with
something that you can 'fall into or
out of'?" - Ra Un Nefer Amen,
Afrocentric Guide to a Spiritual Union

Kemetian
--------------------------------------
check it out:
www.natureworksforyou.co
m

"Pour libation for your father
and mother who rest in the
valley of the dead. God will
witness your action and
accept it. Do not forget to
do this

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

        
M2
Charter member
10072 posts
Thu Jan-31-02 08:11 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
28. "RE: Given the fact"
In response to Reply # 20


          

>>
>>Or even disrespect these people's traditions...
>>
>>
>>But considering none of us live
>>in Ghana and we have
>>an AIDS problem right here
>>in America.....
>>
>>.....and with respect to developing a
>>solution that is adaptable to
>>multiple cultures and people.......
>>
>that u haven't been thru the
>inititation how do u know
>that it DOESN'T do the
>following?

How do you know it does?

Besides, I'm talking about simply equiping children to make intelligent choices as opposed to conditioning them to live a specific lifestyle.


>there are no potential "sexual partners"
>b/c in non-western cultures, that's
>not the way ppl operate.
>not in terms of "sexual
>partners" but in terms of
>life partners.

To my knowledge, that's false.

Furthermore, this is NOT Ghana, it's the US.

It's possile to have positive and healthy relationships with sexual partners and to me, "life partners" sounds cold and functional. But like I said, people should be able to make choices as to how they want to live with respect to "partners" and not be taught to live in only one way.

Married people get STDs all the time.


>please expound on this for me:
>tell me how i would
>recognize a "sexually repressed adult?"

Someone who isn't comfortable with their own sexuality or has yet to really explore/disover it.



>remember traditional rites of passage
>are a little more than
>your sex education class. AND
>if this works for Muslims
>and Hindus (the ones that
>i know) this idea of
>no "partners" but a spouse,
>y can't this work for
>the average joe who wants
>it to work? don't we
>have rites of passage programs?
>couldn't these be used to
>do something similar?

I'm not talking about sex education.

I'm talking about educating people so they can make the right decision, rather then saying "here is a path, follow this path and you'll be alright" the person is being taught to imitate a behavior, not evaluate a decision and make an intelligent choice.

>>
>>When you've known women who've gotten
>>HIV and other SDS from
>>their Husbands, women who "waited"
>>for marriage, but weren't equipped
>>with the information to make
>>intelligent choices about sex....you get
>>jaded.
>
>ok, tell me what "intelligent choice"
>u should make about sex
>when it comes to your
>spouse?

Just because someone got married, doesn't mean they won't cheat and bring something nasty back home. 9 times out of 10, the man/woman whose spouse infects them with something should've suspected something all along.....but refused to believe it because they "were married" "he's a good man" "He/she will be faithful once we're married"

People put too much faith in marriage to protect them from things like STDs an getting hurt.



>>I like the sound Dipo, but
>>it seems to leave out
>>key information (to me) that
>>could bit the child in
>>the ass later on in
>>life...
>
>
>again u can't really know what
>info is being left out
>or included, unless u go
>thru the initiation yourself.

By that logic you can't be a proponent of it, until YOU'VE gone through the initiation yourself and/or have had detailed discussions with someone who has....since you're posting articles....

Why are having this discussion?

In any event, I'm making inferences based on what I do know if they are incorrect, let me know.

In any event, perhaps I should put forth the modifier that my criticism are going to be more applicable to a similar rite initiated in this country.

After all, I have very similar criticisms of right wing christian ideas towards sexual education....where children are taught abstinance and nothing else. The idea is that if the kids are taught abstinance, they will obey and there is nothing to worry about.

The problems start when they do have sex, whether they are married or not......they don't always have problems and I don't think it's wrong for people to wait...but people should have all the neccessary information and be able to make intelligent choices on their own


>>Waiting until you're ready to have
>>sex with the right person,
>>is 10000x more important (IMHO),
>>then merely waiting for marriage
>>to protect the dignity of
>>the family.
>
>who is the "right" person? what
>does that mean exactly? i'm
>sure ppl who have several
>"partners" are ready to have
>sex w/ each "right" person.

The right person simply means someone who can have a positive and healthy sexual experience with, whether it's your fiance, a long time girlfriend or someone who met recently.

As for multiple partners, relationships don't always work out, it's hard to find the right person...regardless of whether or not you wait for sex or thing in terms of life-partners.


Anyway, my basic issue is that I'm not uncomfortable with people teaching children to follow a certain path and a certain path only.......rather then teaching them to make intelligent decisions on their own and advising them when they fail to do so.

Actions with respect to Sex & Marriage are personal choices that people should make for themselves, not be taught to make a specific ones.

I was taught that I should get married once I got my career going/late 20s and be fruitful and multiply. Well I don't like the former, and I'm confounded by the human desire to procreate...

In other words, neither is for me.....and I'm glad that even though my parents "taught" me to make that decision and live that way because they feel it's the best...that they also taught me to make my own decisions regarding how I live..and respect my decisions regardless.



Peace,






M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

            
kemetian
Charter member
1336 posts
Fri Feb-01-02 05:20 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
29. "i'm really interested in this idea"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          


>>please expound on this for me:
>>tell me how i would
>>recognize a "sexually repressed adult?"
>
>Someone who isn't comfortable with their
>own sexuality or has yet
>to really explore/disover it.

how do you recognize a sexually repressed adult? u defined it for me, i want to know how do u recognize someone who is sexually repressed? what does it mean to be "comfortable w/ one's own sexuality?" how does one "explore/discover" one's sexuality? i mean it is involved in that exactly?

we will agree to disgree on the rest.

Shemhotep
************
"If u want a butterfly u got to B a
butterfly" - India.Arie, Butterfly

"the wages of sin is death"
Romans ch.6 v.23

"If the essence of 'love'... is giving
selflessly or sacrificing for others,
how can it then be equated with
something that you can 'fall into or
out of'?" - Ra Un Nefer Amen,
Afrocentric Guide to a Spiritual Union

Kemetian
--------------------------------------
check it out:
www.natureworksforyou.co
m

"Pour libation for your father
and mother who rest in the
valley of the dead. God will
witness your action and
accept it. Do not forget to
do this

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                
RevUrb

Fri Feb-01-02 06:13 AM

  
32. "i'm not convinced"
In response to Reply # 29


          

that an absence of exploration or discovery = "repression"

could you expand upon that please?

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                    
lidawg
Charter member
1539 posts
Fri Feb-01-02 09:19 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
33. "RE: i'm not convinced"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

'Sup y'all?
I know that I'm kinda late in adding to the discussion but I wanted to make a few points.

1) I think that this rite of passage sounds like a creative idea that encompasses utilizing one's culture as a means of teaching lessons. I won't put labels on the types of lessons cuz then my argument might be viewed as judgmental.

2) I'm curious also to know what you mean by recognition of sexually repressed adults? Did you recognize their sexual repression through interactions (sexual or nonsexual)? Was there a particular form(s) of behavior?

3) Michael Eric Dyson, who I admit I oftentimes criticize for his commentary, offers an interesting discourse concerning the teaching of sexual education within the Black church. As was pointed out earlier, many Christian social institutions propose that abstinence should be the only form of sexual education offered. However, Dyson argues that if discourse on sexual education was more realistic (e.g. dealing with the fact that AfAms in particular are having sexual encounters earlier despite involvement in church and other social institutions), than it should be combined with learning about appropriate contraceptives and usage and looking at why adolescents/teenagers as well as adults want to have sex besides hormonal urges. Therefore, as kemetian asked, I'm curious to know what viable alternatives have others seen that have been efficacious? Also, even what creative ideas others have in regards to sex education among groups of color?

Hmmm...I wonder if I pontificated too much?

peace and blessings!
lidawg

"u never know, u might be closer to the truth than u think. people wear their stories on their backs. u just have to know how to read them.--LexM

"Man, use shuffle cuz sometimes a cd's playlist can fk up a cd"--me

"Man was born free and is everywhere in chains."--Rousseau

"Afraid is a country with no exit visa."--Audre Lorde

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                    
M2
Charter member
10072 posts
Sat Feb-02-02 07:09 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
38. "RE: i'm not convinced"
In response to Reply # 32


          

>that an absence of exploration or
>discovery = "repression"

I should've explained better.....an absence of discovery or exploration is simply that.....an absence....however if the person wants explore but is afraid or unwilling to do so, due to reasons dealing with thinking that it's "dirty" "wrong" or they are just not comfortable with it.....I would think that's evidence of repression.





Peace,




M2


The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                        
kemetian
Charter member
1336 posts
Sun Feb-03-02 07:41 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
39. "RE: i'm not convinced"
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

a person who wants to explore sex w/ a dog but thinks it's dirty and wrong is sexually repressed?

so u r repressed if u want to do something but think it's bad?
so if i want to kill someone but refrain b/c i am ashamed and think it's wrong i am repressed (tho not sexually) as well?


>>that an absence of exploration or
>>discovery = "repression"
>
>I should've explained better.....an absence of
>discovery or exploration is simply
>that.....an absence....however if the person
>wants explore but is afraid
>or unwilling to do so,
>due to reasons dealing with
>thinking that it's "dirty" "wrong"
>or they are just not
>comfortable with it.....I would think
>that's evidence of repression.
>
>
>
>
>
>Peace,
>
>
>
>
>M2


Shemhotep
************
"If u want a butterfly u got to B a
butterfly" - India.Arie, Butterfly

"the wages of sin is death"
Romans ch.6 v.23

"If the essence of 'love'... is giving
selflessly or sacrificing for others,
how can it then be equated with
something that you can 'fall into or
out of'?" - Ra Un Nefer Amen,
Afrocentric Guide to a Spiritual Union

Kemetian
--------------------------------------
check it out:
www.natureworksforyou.co
m

"Pour libation for your father
and mother who rest in the
valley of the dead. God will
witness your action and
accept it. Do not forget to
do this

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                            
M2
Charter member
10072 posts
Sun Feb-03-02 08:28 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
42. "RE: i'm not convinced"
In response to Reply # 39


          

>a person who wants to explore
>sex w/ a dog but
>thinks it's dirty and wrong
>is sexually repressed?

I'm talking about two PEOPLE so this isn't even relevant.

>so u r repressed if u
>want to do something but
>think it's bad?
>so if i want to kill
>someone but refrain b/c i
>am ashamed and think it's
>wrong i am repressed (tho
>not sexually) as well

The question is not whether it's bad or not, the question is whether or not the person PERCEIVES it to be "Bad" or "Dirty".

In other words, how can a sexual act performed by two consenting adults be dirty or wrong....unless it's hurting one of the partners and/or is related to a psychological problem?



Peace,





M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                                
kemetian
Charter member
1336 posts
Mon Feb-04-02 07:43 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
46. "RE: i'm not convinced"
In response to Reply # 42


  

          


>
>The question is not whether it's
>bad or not, the question
>is whether or not the
>person PERCEIVES it to be
>"Bad" or "Dirty".
>
>In other words, how can a
>sexual act performed by two
>consenting adults be dirty or
>wrong....unless it's hurting one of
>the partners and/or is related
>to a psychological problem?

so what if the consensual act is between 2 ppl who are already legally attached to someone else? it is not wrong? they r repressed if they PERCEIVE it to be wrong given the fact that this does not "hurt" the consenting adults?



Shemhotep
************
"If u want a butterfly u got to B a
butterfly" - India.Arie, Butterfly

"the wages of sin is death"
Romans ch.6 v.23

"If the essence of 'love'... is giving
selflessly or sacrificing for others,
how can it then be equated with
something that you can 'fall into or
out of'?" - Ra Un Nefer Amen,
Afrocentric Guide to a Spiritual Union

Kemetian
--------------------------------------
check it out:
www.natureworksforyou.co
m

"Pour libation for your father
and mother who rest in the
valley of the dead. God will
witness your action and
accept it. Do not forget to
do this

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                                    
M2
Charter member
10072 posts
Mon Feb-04-02 09:14 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
47. "RE: i'm not convinced"
In response to Reply # 46


          


>so what if the consensual act
>is between 2 ppl who
>are already legally attached to
>someone else? it is not
>wrong? they r repressed if
>they PERCEIVE it to be
>wrong given the fact that
>this does not "hurt" the
>consenting adults?

Are you asking these questions just to be annoying?

This has NOTHING to do with the issue (Sexual Repression) that we're discussing here, NOTHING! We're not talking about people in relationships, who WANT to do a certain act but refrain because they feel it's dirty or wrong.

We're not talking about breaking the Law, people cheating on their partners or acts that don't occur between two consenting adults.

We're talking about two people in a relationship......

Your question has EVERYTHING to do with fidelity and NOTHING to do with sexually repression.


Peace,





M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                                        
kemetian
Charter member
1336 posts
Mon Feb-04-02 03:43 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
54. "ain't no need to get to raising caps"
In response to Reply # 47


  

          




>>so what if the consensual act
>>is between 2 ppl who
>>are already legally attached to
>>someone else? it is not
>>wrong? they r repressed if
>>they PERCEIVE it to be
>>wrong given the fact that
>>this does not "hurt" the
>>consenting adults?
>
>Are you asking these questions just
>to be annoying?


nope.


>This has NOTHING to do with
>the issue (Sexual Repression) that
>we're discussing here, NOTHING! We're
>not talking about people in
>relationships, who WANT to do
>a certain act but refrain
>because they feel it's dirty
>or wrong.


u c the confusion here? i could have sworn u defined sexual repression as that very same thing early on.


>We're not talking about breaking the
>Law, people cheating on their
>partners or acts that don't
>occur between two consenting adults.

u never set any boundaries on what kinds of relationships we were talking about, so y raise your caps when u hadn't set any boundaries? u said, how can it be wrong if it involves two consenting adults. so i asked FOR CLARITY, what if...?



>We're talking about two people in
>a relationship......
>
>Your question has EVERYTHING to do
>with fidelity and NOTHING to
>do with sexually repression.
>
>
>Peace,
>
>
>
>
>
>M2

i am trying to draw the line between what a person believes to be being a moral person and being what u consider repressed. if all this close examination is too much, feel free to back away.

Shemhotep
************
"If u want a butterfly u got to B a
butterfly" - India.Arie, Butterfly

"the wages of sin is death"
Romans ch.6 v.23

"If the essence of 'love'... is giving
selflessly or sacrificing for others,
how can it then be equated with
something that you can 'fall into or
out of'?" - Ra Un Nefer Amen,
Afrocentric Guide to a Spiritual Union

Kemetian
--------------------------------------
check it out:
www.natureworksforyou.co
m

"Pour libation for your father
and mother who rest in the
valley of the dead. God will
witness your action and
accept it. Do not forget to
do this

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                
M2
Charter member
10072 posts
Sat Feb-02-02 07:07 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
37. "RE: i'm really interested in this idea"
In response to Reply # 29


          


>how do you recognize a sexually
>repressed adult? u defined it
>for me, i want to
>know how do u recognize
>someone who is sexually repressed?
>what does it mean to
>be "comfortable w/ one's own
>sexuality?" how does one "explore/discover"
>one's sexuality? i mean it
>is involved in that exactly?

It's complicated, because it can come in many forms.

In an abstract it's someone who is suppressing their sexual desires out of a fear of letting go, or a fear that the act is "dirty" and/or "wrong". In essense, the person is more or less afraid of enjoying sex and even though they may be having sex, they don't fully allow themselves to do so.

Digging deeper, you could have people who aren't comfortable with their bodies, comfortable with the fact that they want sex, aren't able to fully express what they want sexually, aren't honest with themselves or their partners about the frequency that they desire sex, pretend to dislike certain acts they actually want to do, aren't comfortable with enjoying sex, etc, etc.

Basically, you have someone who hasn't fully accepted their sexual self.........whose desires and actions aren't completely in synch.

As for as exploring one's sexuality, that's mostly a function of having sex and discovering what one likes/dislikes.


You dig?





Peace,






M2



>we will agree to disgree on
>the rest.

Okay.

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

            
jenNjuice
Charter member
3527 posts
Fri Feb-01-02 10:45 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
35. "RE:EXACTLY"
In response to Reply # 28


          

>here is a path, follow this path and you'll
>be alright the person is being taught to imitate a behavior, >not evaluate a decision and make an intelligent choice.

and that's why i don't go to church!!!

"The only thing we wanted for our country was the right to a decent existence, to dignity without hypocrisy , to independence without restrictions... The day will come when history will have its say."-Lumumba

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

    
kemetian
Charter member
1336 posts
Sun Feb-03-02 07:59 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
41. "so in your experience"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

ppl who were told to wait ended up think sex was dirty and wrong
i.e. repressed?

do u think it is more or less likely for u to get AIDS if u abstain from sex until marriage? or do u think it is equally as likely?

is being sexually repressed better or worse than having AIDS?

>
>Or even disrespect these people's traditions...
>
>
>But considering none of us live
>in Ghana and we have
>an AIDS problem right here
>in America.....
>
>.....and with respect to developing a
>solution that is adaptable to
>multiple cultures and people.......
>
>
>....wouldn't it be a better idea
>to teach young MEN and
>WOMEN to love their bodies,
>not let people disrespect their
>bodies, teach them about sex
>with respect to the physical
>act and how to deal
>with on an emotional level,
>teach them to be comfortable
>with sex, teach them about
>sexually transmitted diseases and how
>to make intelligent, rational decisions
>about sex and potential sex
>partners?

can u indulge me in a bit of role-playing and pretend i am a wide-eyed 16 yr old has fed on lots of meat and dairy. ok i'm joking about the meat and dairy part, but please give me some examples of some rational intelligent decisions i should make when it comes to sex. i mean what would u say exactly.


thanks.


>
>
>I have no problems with people
>teaching their kids abstinance, but
>(In my experience) that usually
>leads to sexually repressed adults
>who have little knowledge about
>sex itself, diseases, birth control
>methods (Important to married couples),
>and how to make intelligent
>decisions about sex and partners.
>
>
>When you've known women who've gotten
>HIV and other SDS from
>their Husbands, women who "waited"
>for marriage, but weren't equipped
>with the information to make
>intelligent choices about sex....you get
>jaded.
>
>I like the sound Dipo, but
>it seems to leave out
>key information (to me) that
>could bit the child in
>the ass later on in
>life...
>
>Waiting until you're ready to have
>sex with the right person,
>is 10000x more important (IMHO),
>then merely waiting for marriage
>to protect the dignity of
>the family.
>
>
>Just my opinion......
>
>
>
>Peace,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>M2


Shemhotep
************
"If u want a butterfly u got to B a
butterfly" - India.Arie, Butterfly

"the wages of sin is death"
Romans ch.6 v.23

"If the essence of 'love'... is giving
selflessly or sacrificing for others,
how can it then be equated with
something that you can 'fall into or
out of'?" - Ra Un Nefer Amen,
Afrocentric Guide to a Spiritual Union

Kemetian
--------------------------------------
check it out:
www.natureworksforyou.co
m

"Pour libation for your father
and mother who rest in the
valley of the dead. God will
witness your action and
accept it. Do not forget to
do this

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

        
M2
Charter member
10072 posts
Sun Feb-03-02 08:49 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
43. "RE: so in your experience"
In response to Reply # 41


          

>ppl who were told to wait
>ended up think sex was
>dirty and wrong
>i.e. repressed?

It's not at all uncommon...particularly when the reasons for "saving yourself" are religious in nature. Abstinance is taught more along the lines of Abstinance from "sin" as oppose to abstinance from Sex. Carnal desires are presented as a sinful things one most control until they're married.

See the problem? Sex is taught as something that's bad and sinful, so even if the person gets married and starts having sex....it was still presented as something "dirty & wrong"...the only difference is that they're allowed to do it because they're married.

>do u think it is more
>or less likely for u
>to get AIDS if u
>abstain from sex until marriage?
> or do u think
>it is equally as likely?
>
>
>is being sexually repressed better or
>worse than having AIDS?

Any type of repression is better then death, that's as obvious as saying 2 + 2 = 4.

Considering that Car Accidents will kill more people then AIDS, I should sell my car and move within walking distance of my job.

Life is fraught with Risks, but that doesn't mean that people retreat into ideological bunkers and only live ONE way and one way only.....especially since that one way doesn't evicerate the risk....marriage won't neccessarily elminate risk since married people cheat, one spouse can lie about their sexual history, etc.

Marriage may reduce the risk but it won't eliminate it.

In any event, I'm not talking about Abstinance vs. non-abstinance, I'm talking about people to make intelligent decisions, not enforcing a singular way of approaching a subject for all people.


>can u indulge me in a
>bit of role-playing and pretend
>i am a wide-eyed 16
>yr old has fed on
>lots of meat and dairy.
>ok i'm joking about the
>meat and dairy part, but
>please give me some examples
>of some rational intelligent decisions
>i should make when it
>comes to sex. i mean
>what would u say exactly.

Age isn't the issue (At least not in this case), in so much as people should have sex when they feel emotitionally ready to do so, take the proper precautions and are having sex with someone they feel they can entrust their safety to.

That's should be the basic rule for anyone who has the emotionally and physical maturity to make the decision regarding whether or not they should have sex.


Peace,





M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

            
RevUrb

Mon Feb-04-02 02:47 AM

  
44. "do you think..."
In response to Reply # 43


          

that abstinence cannot be considered an "intelligent decision" regarding sex?

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                
M2
Charter member
10072 posts
Mon Feb-04-02 09:18 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
48. "RE: do you think..."
In response to Reply # 44


          

>that abstinence cannot be considered an
>"intelligent decision" regarding sex?

Did I say that?

No.

But, it's not as simple as just staying abstinant until you get married......because your partner could still cheat, or may have been sexually active before you married them.

Your need to make intelligent decisions about partners and sex doesn't end once you get married.

But if you want to put on the "abstiance hat" and pretend everything is going to be perfect....go right ahead.




Peace,








M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

            
kemetian
Charter member
1336 posts
Mon Feb-04-02 07:38 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
45. "i c"
In response to Reply # 43


  

          


>
>Age isn't the issue (At least
>not in this case), in
>so much as people should
>have sex when they feel
>emotitionally ready to do so,

what is emotionally ready? i'm sure plenty of ppl use an erection or butterflies in the stomach as an indication of readiness.


>take the proper precautions


the proper precautions being what?


>and
>are having sex with someone
>they feel they can entrust
>their safety to.

i think most ppl who have sex feel that they are having it w/ someone they can entrust their safety to. i mean i dont think even one night stands are had w/ ppl we think might kill us.

>That's should be the basic rule
>for anyone who has the
>emotionally and physical maturity to
>make the decision regarding whether
>or not they should have
>sex.

what is the measure of emotional and physical maturity?

Peace,
>
>
>
>
>
>M2


Shemhotep
************
"If u want a butterfly u got to B a
butterfly" - India.Arie, Butterfly

"the wages of sin is death"
Romans ch.6 v.23

"If the essence of 'love'... is giving
selflessly or sacrificing for others,
how can it then be equated with
something that you can 'fall into or
out of'?" - Ra Un Nefer Amen,
Afrocentric Guide to a Spiritual Union

Kemetian
--------------------------------------
check it out:
www.natureworksforyou.co
m

"Pour libation for your father
and mother who rest in the
valley of the dead. God will
witness your action and
accept it. Do not forget to
do this

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                
M2
Charter member
10072 posts
Mon Feb-04-02 11:11 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
51. "RE: i c"
In response to Reply # 45


          

>
>>
>>Age isn't the issue (At least
>>not in this case), in
>>so much as people should
>>have sex when they feel
>>emotitionally ready to do so,
>
>what is emotionally ready? i'm sure
>plenty of ppl use an
>erection or butterflies in the
>stomach as an indication of
>readiness.

...and plenty of people get married at a young age so they CAN have sex.

What's the difference?

What isn't emotionally ready?

Is one "ready" because they went through a rite of passage and/or decided to get married?

No.

Emotionally ready means that you're prepared to deal with the psychological ramifications of engaging in sexual activities.

It's hard to define, (Since we're talking about emotions here) but people more or less need to put outside stimuli aside and just make the decision for themselves.


>>take the proper precautions
>
>
>the proper precautions being what?


You know, this discussion is getting on my nerves.....

If you want to ask stupid questions go ahead, but don't waste my time with it.

You have heard of safe sex right?



>>and
>>are having sex with someone
>>they feel they can entrust
>>their safety to.
>
>i think most ppl who have
>sex feel that they are
>having it w/ someone they
>can entrust their safety to.
>i mean i dont think
>even one night stands are
>had w/ ppl we think
>might kill us.

No, people don't consider those things...otherwise they wouldn't have one night stands....

Basically, people WANT to believe nothing is going to happen and they operate based on that.



>>That's should be the basic rule
>>for anyone who has the
>>emotionally and physical maturity to
>>make the decision regarding whether
>>or not they should have
>>sex.
>
>what is the measure of emotional
>and physical maturity?

Physical is obvious....

Emotional was discussed above......


Look if you want to stay in the abstinence "my way is the only way camp" then fine...BUT if you want to really discuss this...please show up with more then silly arguments about infidelity, beastiality......and "precautions" & "maturity" are.....

Particularly since the latter is a factor in marriages as well......and won't really be affected by any so called "rites"



Peace,






M2



The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                    
kemetian
Charter member
1336 posts
Mon Feb-04-02 03:15 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
53. "i'm just asking questions"
In response to Reply # 51


  

          

no need to get huffy.
geez.

the other questions were to get a clear understanding of what repression is, in your opinion. b/c it seems fuzzy to me that's all, where is the line drawn between following what u might think is your conscience or following w/in social guidelines, or trying to be what u think is a moral person and being "repressed." i have been taught that we as humans can rise above our animal nature. does that mean that those who seek to do this are "repressed?"

as far as what u mean by "proper precautions" i have to ask, so i don't make assumptions, what are proper precautions to u, might be something different to someone else. i don't know if u r talking about conventional "proper precautions", literal physical precautions or emotional ones, i ask for clarity. that's all.


>>>
>>>Age isn't the issue (At least
>>>not in this case), in
>>>so much as people should
>>>have sex when they feel
>>>emotitionally ready to do so,
>>
>>what is emotionally ready? i'm sure
>>plenty of ppl use an
>>erection or butterflies in the
>>stomach as an indication of
>>readiness.
>
>...and plenty of people get married
>at a young age so
>they CAN have sex.
>
>What's the difference?
>
>What isn't emotionally ready?

>Is one "ready" because they went
>through a rite of passage
>and/or decided to get married?
>
>
>No.

well according to proponents of rites of passage they can't make it thru the rites unless they are ready, to be a productive man or woman in the society, this includes issues of sex.



>Emotionally ready means that you're prepared
>to deal with the psychological
>ramifications of engaging in sexual
>activities.

the thing is M2, i don't think that simply telling someone, particularly youth, "hey
make sure you're prepared
to deal with the psychological
ramifications of engaging in sexual
activities."

>It's hard to define, (Since we're
>talking about emotions here) but
>people more or less need
>to put outside stimuli aside
>and just make the decision
>for themselves.



>
>
>>>take the proper precautions
>>
>>
>>the proper precautions being what?
>
>
>You know, this discussion is getting
>on my nerves.....

i wouldn't want it to do that, don't answer anything u feel is not worthy of your time. i explained my reasoning above.

>If you want to ask stupid
>questions go ahead, but don't
>waste my time with it.
>
>
>You have heard of safe sex
>right?

well... according to the assumption u have made about me in the latter part of your response, u know what i think the "only safe sex" is...


>
>>>and
>>>are having sex with someone
>>>they feel they can entrust
>>>their safety to.
>>
>>i think most ppl who have
>>sex feel that they are
>>having it w/ someone they
>>can entrust their safety to.
>>i mean i dont think
>>even one night stands are
>>had w/ ppl we think
>>might kill us.
>
>No, people don't consider those things...otherwise
>they wouldn't have one night
>stands....
>
>Basically, people WANT to believe nothing
>is going to happen and
>they operate based on that.


i agree, so y depend upon what they consider as emotionally and psychologically ready to make these rational and intelligent decisions?

>>>That's should be the basic rule
>>>for anyone who has the
>>>emotionally and physical maturity to
>>>make the decision regarding whether
>>>or not they should have
>>>sex.
>>
>>what is the measure of emotional
>>and physical maturity?
>
>Physical is obvious....
>
>Emotional was discussed above......
>
>
>Look if you want to stay
>in the abstinence "my way
>is the only way camp"
>then fine...BUT if you want
>to really discuss this...please show
>up with more then silly
>arguments about infidelity, beastiality......and "precautions"
>& "maturity" are.....

u know i haven't made any arguments lately? i've simply questioned yours. these questions r for clarity. if u think they r silly, that's your opinion.


>Particularly since the latter is a
>factor in marriages as well......and
>won't really be affected by
>any so called "rites"
>
>
>
>Peace,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>M2


Shemhotep
************
"If u want a butterfly u got to B a
butterfly" - India.Arie, Butterfly

"the wages of sin is death"
Romans ch.6 v.23

"If the essence of 'love'... is giving
selflessly or sacrificing for others,
how can it then be equated with
something that you can 'fall into or
out of'?" - Ra Un Nefer Amen,
Afrocentric Guide to a Spiritual Union

Kemetian
--------------------------------------
check it out:
www.natureworksforyou.co
m

"Pour libation for your father
and mother who rest in the
valley of the dead. God will
witness your action and
accept it. Do not forget to
do this

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

            
Cre8
Charter member
17379 posts
Mon Feb-04-02 10:50 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
49. "RE: so in your experience"
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

You're contradicting yourself:

<<We're not talking about breaking the Law, people cheating on their partners or ACTS THAT DON'T OCCUR BETWEEN TWO CONSENTING ADULTS.>>
Then you contradict yourself:
<<...Age isn't the issue (At least not in this case), in so much as people should have sex when they feel emotitionally ready to do so, take the proper precautions and are having sex with someone they feel they can entrust their safety to.>>

Age isn't an issue, yet there is an age limit for consenting?

***Dipo was instituted as a puberty rite for girls between the ages of 14 and 21 years.***
If I'm not mistaking adult age to drink (which is also considered pleasurable by many) in the U.S. is 21, could that be because the law feels that a person of that age has the -emotional and physical maturity to make the decision regarding whether or not they should drink-.Then why not the same for sex?

As for age not being an issue, many adult men take on the same thought when they can get a 14 yr.old girl to entrust her feelings of emotional readiness in having sex, and a majority of time neither feels necessary to take the proper percautions. The usual reason for a man is that he feels the girl is to young, therefore clean and STD free, as for the girl-hell she's 14 and ENTRUSTing herself to this adult man.

One of the main things I don't understand about your arguments is how you think a person will feel sexually repressed if they dont experiment, making sound as if anyone 14to21 not experimenting with sex has issues or something. And what do you mean by experiment: Is it having sex with various people(that can be done after 21) or having sex with the same gender or being bi(that can be done after 21 aslo).

Also if Dipo last between 14 and 21 then why do assume that a person will not go buck wild at age 22(an adult,free to do what they please)? Why do you assume that they will be sexually repressed, get married or even have children? And seeing that your confounded by procreation why would you find it okay for someone regardless of age and maturity level should experiment with sex. Just about every teenage kid in the US feels emotionally mature and many look physically mature, but hit their ass with a baby and some bills and that maturity will shrink.

I don't think Dipo is teaching girls you must get married you must have children. If anything its teaching to hold off on marriage and having babies before your 21 while also preparing a girl for events that might occur in her lifetime as a woman.




Food/Drink PlayersCookbook Info:
To help: L9 Health Clinic http://www.commongroundrelief.org/node/242
DEADLINE: November 22, 2006
Please submit your recipes to playerscookbook@yahoo.com or inbox and don't forget PHOTOS.

*********************************

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                
M2
Charter member
10072 posts
Mon Feb-04-02 11:04 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
50. "RE: so in your experience"
In response to Reply # 49


          

>You're contradicting yourself:
>
><<We're not talking about breaking the Law, people cheating on their partners or ACTS THAT DON'T OCCUR BETWEEN TWO CONSENTING ADULTS.>>
>Then you contradict yourself:
><<...Age isn't the issue (At least not in this case), in so much as people should have sex when they feel emotitionally ready to do so, take the proper precautions and are having sex with someone they feel they can entrust their safety to.>>
>
>Age isn't an issue, yet there
>is an age limit for
>consenting?

Now I'm not.....read it again, I said NOT IN THIS CASE! 16 in the age of consent in most states.


>***Dipo was instituted as a puberty
>rite for girls between the
>ages of 14 and 21
>years.***
>If I'm not mistaking adult age
>to drink (which is also
>considered pleasurable by many) in
>the U.S. is 21, could
>that be because the law
>feels that a person of
>that age has the -emotional
>and physical maturity to make
>the decision regarding whether or
>not they should drink-.Then why
>not the same for sex?

Good question, why can you join the military at age 17 and not drink?

Regardless, we're talking within the context of the law...



>As for age not being an
>issue, many adult men take
>on the same thought when
>they can get a 14
>yr.old girl to entrust her
>feelings of emotional readiness in
>having sex, and a majority
>of time neither feels necessary
>to take the proper percautions.
>The usual reason for a
>man is that he feels
>the girl is to young,
>therefore clean and STD free,
>as for the girl-hell she's
>14 and ENTRUSTing herself to
>this adult man.

I wasn't talking about 14 year olds...I was talking about 16 year olds and assuming they'd have sex with people of their own age.

>One of the main things I
>don't understand about your arguments
>is how you think a
>person will feel sexually repressed
>if they dont experiment, making
>sound as if anyone 14to21
>not experimenting with sex has
>issues or something. And what
>do you mean by experiment:
>Is it having sex with
>various people(that can be done
>after 21) or having sex
>with the same gender or
>being bi(that can be done
>after 21 aslo).

I didn't say that.......re-read it.

I said that people who are taught that sex is sinful or dirty as part of being taught to abstain until marriage, could end up being sexually repressed.

You don't have to experiment at a certain age to keep from being repressed...you may be repressed if you do.....I'm just saying that if you're taught it's sinful and dirty (As most people who are taught to abstain are) there is a good chance you will be....



>Also if Dipo last between 14
>and 21 then why do
>assume that a person will
>not go buck wild at
>age 22(an adult,free to do
>what they please)?

Did I say they wouldn't.....please re-read the original post.



>Why do
>you assume that they will
>be sexually repressed, get married
>or even have children? And
>seeing that your confounded by
>procreation why would you find
>it okay for someone regardless
>of age and maturity level
>should experiment with sex. Just
>about every teenage kid in
>the US feels emotionally mature
>and many look physically mature,
>but hit their ass with
>a baby and some bills
>and that maturity will shrink.

I didn't say anything like that.....read above and re-read the original post.

I didn't say it was okay for people of any age or maturity level to experiment with sex.....re-read damnit.

Having the maturity level to deal with sex more or less implies that you'll be older then 16....probably closer to 18-21. Notice I said that age isn't the issue with respect to the 16 year old.


>
>I don't think Dipo is teaching
>girls you must get married
>you must have children. If
>anything its teaching to hold
>off on marriage and having
>babies before your 21 while
>also preparing a girl for
>events that might occur in
>her lifetime as a woman.
>

I think it is teaching women that they should only have sex if they're married, that they have to protect their virginity for "dignity of the family" and that should get married. It's locking them into one way of approaching life....the rite of passage is setting rules for the rest of their life....it doesn't work along the lines of..."once you turn 22, you can do whatever you want"


Peace,



M2



The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                    
Cre8
Charter member
17379 posts
Mon Feb-04-02 01:46 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
52. "RE: so in your experience"
In response to Reply # 50


  

          


<<16 in the age of consent in most states.>>
But you can be arrested for showing to 16 yr.olds having sex.

<<Good question, why can you join the military at age 17 and not drink?>>
I think the laws in the US are very backwards. You can get married before you can get a drivers license. Join the military before you can vote and smoke the harshest most tarest pack of Malboros 3yrs before even sipping your first wine cooler and that is within the context of the law, but the law is not always just.

As for
<<I wasn't talking about 14 year olds...I was talking about 16 year olds and assuming they'd have sex with people of their own age.>>
I'm taking into fact that a majority of girls are having sex with guys older than them, usually 2-5yr age difference. And if you have a person experimenting, that age range will fluctuate.


<<I said that people who are taught that sex is sinful or dirty as part of being taught to abstain until marriage, could end up being sexually repressed.>>
And they also might not. It depends on the individual.

<<You don't have to experiment at a certain age to keep from being repressed...>>
True, you can start early and be repressed or late and be repressed. It depends on how you look at sex.

<<you may be repressed if you do.....>>
You maybe repressed if you don't.

<<I'm just saying that if you're taught it's sinful and dirty (As most people who are taught to abstain are) there is a good chance you will be....>>
How many people do you know who have abstained from sex say its because they were taught that it was sinful and dirty?
Could this be the ONLY reason someone would abstain from sex?




<Did I say they wouldn't.....please re-read the original post.>
No but you've assumed it many times.



I didn't say it was okay for people of any age or maturity level to experiment with sex.....re-read damnit.

<<Having the maturity level to deal with sex more or less implies that you'll be older then 16....probably closer to 18-21. Notice I said that age isn't the issue with respect to the 16 year old.>>
Wait so age isn't an issue when it comes to a 16 yr old having sex?
True anyone having sex needs to have a maturity level to deal with sex, but lets keep in mind that deals with the negative as well as the positive aspects of having sex.
Positives: Gain of sexual knowlege about self and partner and feels good.
Negatives: STD's, AIDS/HIV and pregnancy.
As for precautions, is not crabs spread between pubic hairs. What precaution can you take against that?


<<I think it is teaching women that they should only have sex if they're married, that they have to protect their virginity for "dignity of the family" and that should get married. It's locking them into one way of approaching life....the rite of passage is setting rules for the rest of their life....it doesn't work along the lines of..."once you turn 22, you can do whatever you want">>

But you and I were probably taught to preserve our virginity until marriage or for as long as you can. As well as most kids who have had the 'sex talk' with their parents. But to think that if a kid is taught that sex is a bad thing they will be sexually repressed is a little bit out there, especially when strict preachers kids (in most black churches) turn out to be the most undeprived sexscapading experimentalist known.

Anyway we're getting nowhere. I feel Dipo is a good non-religious start-over in combating AIDS in young people. Can you give an example of some other method that would work as well if not better?

Food/Drink PlayersCookbook Info:
To help: L9 Health Clinic http://www.commongroundrelief.org/node/242
DEADLINE: November 22, 2006
Please submit your recipes to playerscookbook@yahoo.com or inbox and don't forget PHOTOS.

*********************************

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

Allah
Charter member
47754 posts
Fri Feb-01-02 10:41 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
34. "That's Peace."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


It wasn't even spooky, just a simple rites of passage.
I don't see why the muslims are trippin'
Peace.


DRE Allah allah@metalab.unc.edu
http://metalab.unc.edu/nge/physical
Physical Science Productions

_______________________
"Arm Leg Leg Arm Hate." c/o desus
_______________________
Divine Ruler
http://www.facebook.com/divineruler
__gigs__
__stuff__

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

    
Solarus
Charter member
3604 posts
Sun Feb-03-02 07:50 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
40. "Because a.l.l.a.h. and g.o.d."
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

Akwaaba

didn't sanction it. It is an issue of control.

SE wo werE fi na wosankofa a yenkyi.

Akoneaba ne agoro
solarICE

"So many of those who consider themselves Afrikan centered spend so much time on themselves that they forget that the primary role of the adult in our tradition was to raise the children to improve the society for their children."- Mwalimu Baruti

***Daily Affirmation***

i must be a warrior. i must be an Afrikan father. i must be self-full. i must challenge myself daily to grow, to love my people in and through action. To reflect that love at all times. To be optimistic. To know that victory is in front of US.

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

        
kemetian
Charter member
1336 posts
Wed Feb-06-02 10:28 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
55. "RE: Because a.l.l.a.h. and g.o.d."
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

want 2 tell us what those acronyms stand 4?
Shemhotep
************
"If u want a butterfly u got to B a
butterfly" - India.Arie, Butterfly

"the wages of sin is death"
Romans ch.6 v.23

"If the essence of 'love'... is giving
selflessly or sacrificing for others,
how can it then be equated with
something that you can 'fall into or
out of'?" - Ra Un Nefer Amen,
Afrocentric Guide to a Spiritual Union

Kemetian
--------------------------------------
check it out:
www.natureworksforyou.co
m

"Pour libation for your father
and mother who rest in the
valley of the dead. God will
witness your action and
accept it. Do not forget to
do this

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

poetx
Charter member
58768 posts
Mon Feb-18-02 06:07 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
56. "^ (from p.7)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Cap'n Sav-A-Post.

peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just
focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and
not having much to show for it. (c) mad

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

    
Cre8
Charter member
17379 posts
Mon Feb-18-02 06:13 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
57. "RE: ^ (from p.7)"
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

Muchos Gracias

This is a post that needs saving.

And I'm still waiting for anyone who does not agree with Dipo or does but still has another alternative(drug-less) solution in the prevention of AIDS and HIV.

Food/Drink PlayersCookbook Info:
To help: L9 Health Clinic http://www.commongroundrelief.org/node/242
DEADLINE: November 22, 2006
Please submit your recipes to playerscookbook@yahoo.com or inbox and don't forget PHOTOS.

*********************************

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

        
Federisco
Charter member
5002 posts
Tue Feb-26-02 04:50 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
58. "^"
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

and then wbgirl should save this

░▒▓█▌¹♥▐█▓▒░

proud okayphotographer: http://www.okayplayer.com/okayphotographers/

"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." — Marshall McLuhan

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

Lobby Okay Activist Archives topic #9229 Previous topic | Next topic
Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.25
Copyright © DCScripts.com