(yes another religion post)

Most combative systems (martial arts) or at least the traditional Afrikan or Asian systems are tied to some religion or religious component of the particular people. Because of typical American/European WHITEWASHING, many systems (particularly Asian) the "religious" component is often watered down or taken out completely, as one can see in the "McDojos" of karate and also taekwondo schools. However, the fact remains in many of the systems has specific religious/spiritual philosophies entrenched in the system.

This brings me to the big 3 (Judaism, Chrisitianity, Islam). In many cases one can simply focus on learning the "techniques" and not the rituals or philosophies that go along with it. However, in arts gaining much popularity in the West such as t'ai chi and capoeira, this is not possible. In t'ai chi, the accompanying religion/philosophy is Taoism. How do the big 3 see/understand concepts of "chi" and "ying-yang"? These concepts clearly cannot be understood by the big 3, "ying-yang" especially, because it nullifies the existence of "God vs. Devil." In capoeira, _EVERYTHING_ (let me say this again) _EVERYTHING_ is tied to an orisha; the instruments, music, movements, rituals, _EVERYTHING_! Capoeira and Candomble are sisters with the same Afrikan parents. In fact capoeira is a religion within itself. *My favorite quote from an angolero: "Church?! I don't need church! I got capoeira!"

Knowing what was previously stated, how does a practitioner of one of the big three JUSTIFY practicing and studying one of the aforementioned as they go against their own teachings?

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

lol...classic.

but this is exactly the reason why the more i learn about other religions/cosmologies, the more disillusioned i am with the "big 3". the binary thinking & dismissal of certain levels of the universe as "demonic" or "sinful" just doesn't fly with me...

i've been interested in martial arts/yoga in the past, but the more i learned about them (yoga in particular) i began to wonder if there was anywhere in the u.s. i could really get the full picture & discipline that goes along with that kind of practice.

i really can't answer your question specifically because i've never been firmly tied to christianity (even tho my family is lutheran/baptist/catholic), but this is definitely a valid & important question.

_____________________________
"But we are not anti-American. We are anti or against what America is doing wrong in other parts of the world as well as here... Now, you're not supposed to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or who says it..." ~Malcolm X

"as moons and responsibilities confound me/and death is my messiah, distantly arriving/winged and unconquerable/in the knowledge that I shall rest/I can continue, ever." (c) limbic_system

"u can teach your boy to do that" (c) meshell

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

People participating in the "big three" are THAT limited. If christians restrict themselves to denominational belief systems, yes they are limited, but watching christians from other countries- namely countries that probrably celebrate christianity closest to the way it was done originally...Ethiopia, and Yemen. I could see them practicing these things.

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

they WON'T do these things but I am saying that practicing any of these other systems provides fundamental contradictions to their own belief systems. An analogous situation would be an animal rights activist eating a Big Mac.

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

I guess it would be something on the lines of one who looks down at Islam or Christianity but would read books by muslims or christians. Such a person would take what they deem as good and weed out what they deem as the otherwise. I am pretty sure such a person wouldn't look at this kind of action as compromise one's beliefs.

In short it is using one's judgement. The same kind of judgement one would use when reading a book of any kind.

To group completly different religions like Judaism and Christianity with Islam is doing a great injustice. Espicially in such a discussion for Islam doesn't have a "God vs Devil" ideal in its teachings. Islam and other religions have very little in common, aside from the fact they are considered to be practiced by monotheists.

In Islam every muslim man and woman are commanded to seek knowledge even if its as "far as China" as Prophet Muhammed SAWS has said. So I imagine when it came down to learning a fighting system a muslim would learn that and leave the rest. And by the way there is nothing of learning about other belief systems... it is the PRACTICE of "questionable" beliefs that muslims don't partake.

Peace
H

IS TO PRACTICE...

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

So by that logic the only way to learn about racism is to practice it?
I disagree,Solarus..practice is a way to learn but not the ONLY way to learn.
Peace
H

combative and spiritual systems here. "Knowing of" them but and more in-depth understanding can only come throught PRACTICE and REPETITION.


Furthermore I shouldn't say the big three can't "understand" these concepts but more specifically i should say that the system (religion) itself does not include these concepts within its own doctrines and/or contradicts and negates it.

Eg. Islam negates the validity of the orishas and convolutes the Muslim's understanding of Ifa, period.

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

So unless one worships multiple gods then one can't practice martial arts to its full capacity? LOL!

You are a cool cat man but really funny.

What I am talking about is the fact that one can practice fighting styles and not be a polytheist. What I am talking about is the fact that Islam does accepts and deals with concepts of chi' and ying and yang. That is what I am talkng about. What are you talking about?

Peace
H

"So unless one worships multiple gods then one can't practice martial arts to its full capacity? LOL!"

Multiple g.o.d.'s??!!! LOL

Polytheist???!!! LOL

The joke of the century. Oh well...

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

I try to be.

Um.. maybe you are not familiar with the concept of god? Or at least from an Islamic stand point.

Anything, place or person can be considered a god. From "the ancestors, Earth and ORISHAS!" to money clothes or peers if one worships or is willing to do anything for that object then that is ones god.

However Islam as you yourself knows does not allow worship of more than one god hence it is haram as you yourself admited.

So now Solarus I ask you since you came to that conclusion that it is haram for a muslim to practice capoeria why are you disagreeing with me when I am saying the same thing you are...in different words. Did I miss something? Or maybe you came to the same conclusion with a different logic?

Peace
H

1. From an ISLAMIC standpoint, the orishas are "gods."
2. Since capoeira fundamentally praises the ancestors, orishas, and Earth, practicing capoeira for a muslim is haram.

This is what i was saying in the beginning so what point were you initially trying to make?

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

My point is that many cultures helped the development of that art. Not just the Yuroba which is by the way a tribe which included muslims, that due to these muslims, most of what we know of this tribe was documented by these muslims.

The fact is that just because some may believe that orishas help strengthen the practice capoeira does not make the practice of it by a muslim haram for he doesn't believe that it is strengthen by multiple gods but by One God. A muslim MUST seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave and even if it is as far as China as Muhammed SAWS has told us. We are to take the good thereof and leave the rest. A muslim would learn the various forms and stances and leave that multiple god stuff alone. What they use to explain through various gods a muslim explain with the conviction of One.

Peace
H

It is Haram to make what is halal haram.

With the logic you used it would haram for a muslim to study science due to the fact there are those who contribute to science and believe in its theories that don't believe in God.

Peace
H

I say you cant use guns cause gunpower is Chinese. Unless you are chinese and worship Bhudda. Then you cant use firecrackers either. As a matter of fact, Bhudda was indian (from india), so Chinese people cant be Bhuddist because its not their culture. Bhudda was a hindu prince (hindu=people from the indus river valey/indian), so technically he wasnt following his culture when he decided to leave his class in the caste system (of which he was from a family in the brahman class). Well the caste system was introduced to India from the Aryans (natives of the lower Caspian basin, to what is now Iran). If he enjoyed 1 day of the princely/priestlly class, he is not living in his culture. So therefore, Bhuddah was a fake, a fat fake. So the Japanese should have all remained Shinto. Too bad the roots of shintoism was brought from Korea (or corea). Without it the Yamoto people would have no structure to their feudal lifestyles. So the kamakaze pilots of WW2, would not have been as effective....suicide would have been out of the question. But they may have had no choice, no gunpowder for them, only the Chinese can use it. Or was that the indians?

_________________________
Life is but a dream,
Drifting on a stream, a stream,
Consciously it seems,
All of what remains,
Ego Brain,
And they shame,
Shame, love after it rains,
You see my pain is real,
Watch my world dissolve,
And pretend tha

try again.

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

oooook, I am glad you see how silly this entire post is. The only way it could be right, is if everything came from a vacum. Everything finds its roots somewhere. If you practice any martial art, its not incumbent on you to have to practice its proposed "religion". The proof is in the puddin'. Think like this, how many people who practice (or even practiced) karate, the thai arts, kung fu (gung fo), bushido, tae kwan do, or even jeet kun do, practice the original religion of the founder? Name a few, capoera is the weakest example because of all the brazilians I ever met....none knew anything of Yuroban culture. The presumption one can make based on your statement(s), is that the brazilians of today cannot practice capoera (which is theirs) because they dont share the same religious practices as their presumed ancestors (funny...most brasilian slaves werent Nigerian in the first place...but ill go along with it).

Next, sad to say my friend..but you dont seem to know about islam much. Using the disposition of Catholicism or any other religion towards erudite practices of other peoples is not islam. Ill give an example. Islam enters the Maghrib (west). Spreads into Andalousia(iberia), and with it comes across the books of the "learned" greek/romans (whateva that means). Instead of burning them ect, they open them and add them to the archives in Baghdad, and eventually Andalousia becomes a center of learning rivaled only by the Sokoto/Songhai (West Africa) and Baghdad. Without boring you further, the plague ravishes Europe in the middle ages..but Spain is basically untouched because of their understanding of hygene, and medicine (from the romans->greeks->egyptians->kush->blah blah blah). Islam was never in the mood to destroy or uproot other peoples cultures. One of the few exceptions was Persia and Egypt (who was part of Byzantium). In all 4 Madhabs (the 4 schools of sunni theology)..its clearly outlined that if the people arent in violation of the sunnah leave them alone, collect the jizyah (tax), but leave them alone. Al Kuds, Andalousia, Indonesia, Xian China, and the Indus (untul the Mogul empire, but they were indians attacking indians), were all basically untouched. Many Were invites ALfonso X of one of the spanish city states invited the Syrians (Tariq and co.). Later the Syrians invited the Murabits (moors) of the Songhai, Sudanita wasnt Queen yet. In other words the cultures were basically left intact..unlike the theory of the Christianity, which left no book unburned if it didnt agree with its Aristotelian doctrine. Shifa Yuroba is a good book on this. A Fulani muslim doesnt dress like a Chinese one.

Last, If you like Capoera ill never tell you you have to be Yuroban. If you like the Thai Arts you dont have to be Bhuddist. You like (enjoy) Capitalism (the religion of the west) but you arent a W.A.S.P. Remember the Chinese Bhuddists Practiced Kung foo with the Confucian (later, more political than religious) ones. Their Art was never disdained because they werent bhuddist. What about the Xian? They were Bhuddist till Kublai Khan, they cant be Masters of Foo? I want you to go there and tell them that 1000 years of their favored religous practices need to be shunned because they arent allowed to defend themselves with their 3000 year old fighting style...i see no correlation. Since you seem intelligent..i doubt you see any correlation either.

_________________________
Life is but a dream,
Drifting on a stream, a stream,
Consciously it seems,
All of what remains,
Ego Brain,
And they shame,
Shame, love after it rains,
You see my pain is real,
Watch my world dissolve,
And pretend tha

and here's why. I didn't say that one can't practice martial system while ignoring the spiritual component, and still gain something from it. I said that adherents to the big 3 (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) would be hypocritically practicing many martial systems as their doctrines (holy books) condemn many of the practices that go along with various martial systems. Capoeira was used as an example because the art itself IS a "religion." Thus much of your points make little sense to the original argument.

Thanks for reading.

PEACE

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

>My point is that many cultures helped the development of
>that art. Not just the Yuroba which is by the way a tribe
>which included muslims, that due to these muslims, most of
>what we know of this tribe was documented by these muslims.

First of all you need to check your reading comprehension. I NEVER said the Yoruba were the only AFrikan culture to help development the art. Many AFrikans contributed, primarily though, central AFrikan Bantus (Kikongo, Mbundu, kwk.). I only said that the spiritual component draws heavily from the Yoruba.

Second of all, "most of what we know of this tribe was documented by these muslims" this is HOGWASH. Most of the LIES that we know of the Yoruba NATION is spread by muslims. Especially the LIE that the ancestor Odudawa, was exiled from Mecca by Muhammad because of his idolatrous teachings and then he came to Yorubaland. Most of what we know of the Yoruba comes from the ORAL HISTORY!

>The fact is that just because some may believe that orishas
>help strengthen the practice capoeira does not make the
>practice of it by a muslim haram for he doesn't believe that
>it is strengthen by multiple gods but by One God. A muslim
>MUST seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave and even if
>it is as far as China as Muhammed SAWS has told us. We are
>to take the good thereof and leave the rest. A muslim would
>learn the various forms and stances and leave that multiple
>god stuff alone. What they use to explain through various
>gods a muslim explain with the conviction of One.

Third, orishas do not equal "multiple g.o.d.'s."

Fourth, if you take the orishas out of capoeira, then it is no longer capoeira. Mestre Bimba tried to do just that in creating capoeira regional. He took the tradition from the art. In doing so, capoeira regional evolved into flowery fluff that looks nice but isn't truly effective in the real world. Angoleros kill regional capoeiristas on the regular.

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

>I only said that the spiritual component draws heavily from the Yoruba.
That is what I am refering to. Many cultures contributed to this asspect of the artform. My reason for saying that is to show that just because one says its so doesn't make it so.

Son as far as the history goes Check the ShifaYiroba.
Documentation and practice two different things son. Muslims documented the Yoruba culture in detail, believe it or not, it still remains fact.

I know that orisha doesn't mean multiple god. As we agreed earlier it could be considered as a god and as we both know there are more than one orisha. Um... so you get it? I am sure you can figure the rest out for yourself.

Peace
H

"most of what we know of this tribe was documented by these muslims."

Do you know why this is a BULLSHIT statement? Guess.

Still don't know...

Well here's the answer.


THe YORUBA are still in existence and MANY of them are NOT muslim! Thus MOST of the info on the Yoruba nation COMES FROM THE YORUBA themselves! Ever heard of oral history? The problem with Converts to Islam is that they would rather adopt the history of the Arab and not their own, so truthful and accurate info about the Yoruba WRITTEN by Muslims is probably a rarity as I've already heard lies spread by Muslims about the Yoruba.

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

Bah, funny enough you still dont see that the point you try to make defeats you own point. If capoera is a conglomerate of cultural practices from West Africa, incorperated in Brazil. Then why can someone whi the same cultural axioms practice any martial art? What if I am Nigerian, what if i was Yuroba? What if I know more of its culture that someone wishing they were? What if in my house we eat fufu every chance we get, while you hope to eat it at a special "neo afrikhun" eateries? What if I tell you Yuroba isnt a "religion" or a "spirit" or anything you claim it to be, but like hindu, its a culture who has many religous practices? Define the religion or spirit of the Yuroba so i can call you a liar. What if I tell you that reading the books of the yuroban people, will never make you Yuroban like one who is Yuroban, no matter what anyone tells you. No neophite can accept you into a tribe. Its a bloodrite...either you are or you arent. Which one are you (i am a doctor because i like medical books, or am i)?

Next, whats an arab? Define arab? If i knew someone who was black from the Dominican Republic(or Pannama, or Belize, would it offend you if they said they were Hispanic? What if the difference between CULTURE, CREED, and RACE? Is an arab one who you have been believed to be just that? Is a man from Sudan who is blacker that you, an arab? If I ask him if he is black, and he says yes, and I ask him if he is arab, would you be offended by his cultural affinity? Or would you be doomed to the brainwashing taught in Harvard think tanks to de-solidify Africans in the diaspora because unless they conform to your belief of what an african is or african culture is, they are no as black as you are? Answer this, historically where are the arab people from? are they all semitic? Why is it in their oral traditions (you seem to like those alot) that half their lineage comes from ethopia. whould that ever be true to you? Maybe because you dont seem to understand anything about islam. Ohhhhh, how many of the first community of muslims were black, ok since you dont like africans out of africa, how many of them were african? Finish this statement in a hadith by you most hated arab (almost a 1/3 of who are blacks) "Respect the blood of the __________'s their blood flows through our veins". Who was the "keeper of the stone" in the time of islams inception in arabia? where were they from? Name the group of people who sheltered the muslims during their trials in mecca? Out of the 4 main schools of islamic law, which one was from anyone black? last stupid question why do you care?

Look, you seem to have a complex about yourself and you proposed "africanness". I feel sorry for you, yes I do. Aside from the fact that i have been down the road you have been, trying to "reconnect" with what i believed was my culture, or is it? Not to mention i am way older that you, and have traveled more that you have. Sadly I am not as ignorant or arrogant as you are, so ill give you that...maybe you can help me in that quadrant. Regardless, you slam anything that doesnt conform to your childish notions of what it should be. You somehow believe that because you are black (i am guessing here, out on a limb again, sorry) , you colour gives you some exclusive right to a culture that isnt yours, less that islam is mine (look it up). I am not here to make you believe islam or care for it, 'matter of fact, you can make a whole post maligning it and ill never look, promise. Regardless, your post makes no sense whatsoever, it defeats itself out the starting gate (covered in paragraph 1, and my last 2 posts)...you need a few classes in logic and rhetoric (as i need in insight, and patience). If you can see past you own ego's nose you will see that no martial art developed exclusively within a religous mantra. CAPOERA IS NOT A RELIGION (write it 100 times). It never developed with any spirituality exclusive (or in four-tenths, or whateva) to the Yuraban people (which one christianity, islam, or shango, or eshu, or baal, or clarance the 13th x, or you). Yuraban culture is just that, the culture of a people. Leave us alone (africans in the diaspora), please if Nigerians, or trinis, or pannamanians, or jamaicans, or americans, or guyanese, or anyone wants to practice kung fu, we can. If we want to worship our neighbors dog while we practice seolin(shaolin) longfist..IT WILL WORK (BHUDDA NEVER SAID AFTER NIRVANA, GO KICK EVERYONES ___) I am sure the fact that we arent bhuddist or muslim or from Xian or any other provence in China wont hurt (stop watching bad kung fu movies, kung fu is not exclusive to religion, and capoera even less).

In closing, I would like to say...once again, you seem to just be pulling my peoples chain (there is no way anyone with an iq over 60 would believe this). So anything you say after this will just be "HE HE LOOK MOM I GOT THE LAST WORD, HEHEHEH, EVREBOIDE SUXORS IRULZE 4 EV4R, P43R SOLORISE, I ROOL"...Relax
Go ahead make a personal attack, I dont care...I dont know you (and wouldnt want to either)..so have fun. its open season on me and islam and africans everywhere anyway...

_________________________
Life is but a dream,
Drifting on a stream, a stream,
Consciously it seems,
All of what remains,
Ego Brain,
And they shame,
Shame, love after it rains,
You see my pain is real,
Watch my world dissolve,
And pretend tha

...silence.

LOL.

Peace
H

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

Few points:

-I never said Yoruba was the sole influence on the evolution of capoeira.

-Yoruba is the name of a group of people in the land now called Nigeria. It refers to a culture whose people have many religious practices.

-The people of Yoruba CAN practice many faiths as the cultural and indigenous religious philosophies are very exclusive.

-I never said non-Afrikans, non-Nigerians, non-Brazilians, kwk. could not practice capoeira and for that matter any person practicing any martial system foreign to their cultural.

- I said simply that Islam, Judaism and Christianity have specific elements (rules) that teach against specific elements in various combative systems. THEREFORE practicing a said combative system could potentially be going against the doctrine's teachings. It seems other muslims agreed with me on this and in fact since you mentioned Sudan, the traditional wrestling of the Nuba people has been banned by the primarily Islamic government. Hmmmm...

- Finalamente, yo soy un panameno. Si, soy hispanico.

(((PAZ)))

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

Few points:
>-I never said Yoruba was the sole influence on the evolution of capoeira.

Could have sworn you did, but I don't feel like going through these threads just to prove where you did. It is fruitless.

>-Yoruba is the name of a group of people in the land now called Nigeria. It refers to a culture whose people have many religious practices.

Exactly. Okay he sees the light. And guess what? One of the culture's religions was Islam.

>-The people of Yoruba CAN practice many faiths as the cultural and indigenous religious philosophies are very exclusive.

I am glad you gave them permission. Cause for a while there I thought you never would.

>-I never said non-Afrikans, non-Nigerians, non-Brazilians, kwk. could not practice capoeira and for that matter any person practicing any martial system >foreign to their cultural.

>- I said simply that Islam, Judaism and Christianity have specific elements (rules) that teach against specific elements in various combative systems. >THEREFORE practicing a said combative system could potentially be going against the doctrine's teachings. It seems other muslims agreed with me on this >and in fact since you mentioned Sudan, the traditional wrestling of the Nuba people has been banned by the primarily Islamic government. Hmmmm...

Okay no that is not ALL you said. What you said was that for a muslim to practice capoeira was haram. When I told that no according to Islam it is not and the possibility of it breaking our "doctrine's teachings" you went to try to prove how it was with you minute knowledge of Islam. Let me explain to you that for one to make a statement that such and such is haram or such and such is halal is called a fatwa, a ruling. You do not have such authority to do so.

Next, I don't think you understand that the shari'a (divine law)is not established ANYWHERE on this planet called earth. The last caliph died with the end of the Ottoman empire. There isn't a nation that follows Islamic law to the letter the way it is clearly outlined and should be followed. So in referance to your example with the wrestling I think you need to examine the reasons behind the ban.

As far as christianity and judaism I don't have a clue as to what their laws are.
So as far as Islam is concerned: Please explain what "specific elements" in Islam you are refering to that goes against "specific elements in various combative systems?"
Like what?

Peace
H

I am not going into christianity, or judiasm...but please tell me how its against islam to learn a martial art...or name a martial art who's philosophy goeas against islam so there fore its in the mudwanna, or ihya, or any collection of volumes of islamic law...or tell me of a martial art who said their practice is exclusive to people of a certain religion (jeet kun seelat, is indonesian muslim, and they dont even say that, christians can learn it too, or jews, or rat worshipers, dog, cow, self, anything)...and give the pages in the mudawanna and or ihya, even use fath al bari if necessary...law, thats the topic for today kids, law.


edit here

Islamic law never banned wrestling..actually one of the Prophet's (saw) great feats was that we loved wrestling and grapling...he defeated the greatest wrestler in all of arabin in his time..and condoned wrestling (the art of wrestling, not the crap on tnt)..the art and practice of proper grapling is a great stress reliever and promoted comradery among the disjointed arab tribes. other things that are legal but people like making up stuff (alot)...horse racing (camel racing), laughing (yeah there are some dummies out there who try to say dont laugh), coffee, sports, pooling (like winner of the race takes the pot), and alot of others, but my rice is burning so bye....

_________________________
Life is but a dream,
Drifting on a stream, a stream,
Consciously it seems,
All of what remains,
Ego Brain,
And they shame,
Shame, love after it rains,
You see my pain is real,
Watch my world dissolve,
And pretend tha

>I am not going into christianity, or judiasm...but please
>tell me how its against islam to learn a martial art...or
>name a martial art who's philosophy goeas against islam so
>there fore its in the mudwanna, or ihya, or any collection
>of volumes of islamic law...

well the ppl writing islamic law would've had to have been aware of the different arts to put them specifically in there wouldn't they? come now this is a most unreasonable request. you want Solarus to show u an ayat that was revealed to muhammad saying Tai chi is forbidden?

or tell me of a martial art who
>said their practice is exclusive to people of a certain
>religion (

he never suggested that. the argument isn't that martial arts excludes ppl, it's that perhaps religions may exclude some types of martial arts. i remember doing yoga and my teacher coming back from a retreat and saying she could no longer teach yoga as just an exercise, b/c it wasn't. from then on, she talked more about acknowledging the Divine w/in us, and saying prayers at the end of the session, (i usually fell asleep in relaxation pose, so i missed most of it). but according to my knowledge, according to Islam, ppl are not divine. Allah is divine. so the question then becomes, is it not a little compromising if i am a muslim and i do yoga, or Tai Chi which both do not include a concept of God that is compatible with islam. another e.g. in yoga we do Sun salutations. now it is haram to do prayer when the sun is at its peak or when it is setting or when it is rising, lest it look like one were worshipping the sun. a muslim would then have to ask him/herself, what is the purpose of the poses. i would think the same for capoeira. if embedded in the movements is veneration of orisha, wouldn't that be compromising for 1 who belonged to one of the big 3?

i saw a site where a Christian was telling African americans not to practise Kwanzaa, b/c Karenga, speaks of living according to Maat and not depending on Christ our lord and savior. he saw a conflict in that, as well he probably should.

it's very hard isn't it? not being able to be your Self...

Kemetian
--------------------------------------
check it out:
www.natureworksforyou.co
m

"Pour libation for your father
and mother who rest in the
valley of the dead. God will
witness your action and
accept it. Do not forget to
do this

Judaism, Christianity and islam are FAR from being completely different. Again FAR from being "completely different." They have Islam has ALL of the same prophets that are in the Old Testament (Judaism) and a few from the New (Christianity). In short the three share common origins and developed amongst one another. In the beginnings of the ummah, in the times of Muhammad, they live with jews.

To say that they are "completely different" is probably the overstatement of the millenium.

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

Well here is the thing:
Where yo may understand other religions NOT to be able to understand chi' and ying-yang concepts Islam does. I think you need to research this a little more before making these kind of statements.

Read on Tassawuf.


The other thing I need to understand is capoeira is from Nigeria? Lol.
What part of Nigeria is Angola in that the Portugues took slaves from?
Peace
H

from the West Coast of AFrika were brought to Brazil by the Portuguese. Some were Yoruba, some were Kikongo, some were Mbundu, some were Akan, etc. However the largest concentration of Afrikans in Brazil came from Central West Coast Afrika because of the Portuguese foothold there. Til this day the country of Angola is the only AFrikan country whose official language is Portuguese.

The spiritual system of the yoruba is VERY complex and VERY ritualized and many of the central west coast Afrikan spiritual systems are not as highly structured. Besides ancestor veneration, the spiritual system is often pretty simple (i.e. noTHINGS to "worship"). Amongst one kikongo group word for the Supreme something to the effect of "wonderful universe." Therefore as the various AFrikan groups mixed to form new rituals and a new identity, some concepts were kept and some weren't. It seems that the orishas is one that stayed throughout much of the Americas altogether.

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

Give me the numbers. The fact is MOST of africans that were taken by Portegues were from Angola. Granted some were Yuroba but most were not. The cultures that contributed to capoeira are varied however it isn't solely by Yuroba and their religious practices. As an article on capoeiraarts.com states:

"The importance of Yoruban influences in the state of Bahia has long been recognized. Recently, though, the weight of the Bantu contribution has been reevaluated, gaining more prominence as traces of this culture are identified in the way of life of the inhabitants of Bahia's old cities. Since the cadence in the ginga (the multi-funcional and characteristic movement of capoeira ), the music, and the rituals of today's capoeira seem to have radiated from the Reconcavo Baiano (coastal areas of the Bay of All Saints in Bahia), it is not a far stretch of the imagination to associate the formative elements of the art with cultural expressions embedded in the traditions of the sub-Saharan Bantu people from Angola."

The point is to learn this system is not dependent upon ones religious practices. Capoeira is a fighting system that is influenced by cultures not religions. Developed by slaves and kept secret disguised by music to make it look like a dance.

Plus not to mention that most of west Africa were muslim populated.

Peace
H

"Developed by slaves and kept secret disguised by music to make it look like a dance."

This shows you know NOTHING of capoeira. Europeans THOUGHT it was a "dance" because of the movements done in conjunction with music. However the music was done INDEPENDENT of the need to "hide" the art from Europeans. Deception was there indeed but the music plays a much more vital role.

"Plus not to mention that most of west Africa were muslim populated."

BS statement. That is a REAL joke. GIVE ME THE NUMBERS.


>Give me the numbers. The fact is MOST of africans that were
>taken by Portegues were from Angola. Granted some were
>Yuroba but most were not. The cultures that contributed to
>capoeira are varied however it isn't solely by Yuroba and
>their religious practices.

Never did i say it was SOLELY by Yoruba. In fact my post suggested that the majority of them were from "Angola" (i.e. central west coast Afrika). I said specifically that the ORISHAS are what were held over from the yoruba. Read again:

"Enslaved Afrikans from the West Coast of AFrika were brought to Brazil by the Portuguese. Some were Yoruba, some were Kikongo, some were Mbundu, some were Akan, etc. However the largest concentration of Afrikans in Brazil came from Central West Coast Afrika because of the Portuguese foothold there. Til this day the country of Angola is the only AFrikan country whose official language is Portuguese."

>The point is to learn this system is not dependent upon ones
>religious practices. Capoeira is a fighting system that is
>influenced by cultures not religions.

The "religious" practices indigenous to Afrika are ALL "cultural." Islam is NOT indigenous to Afrika. Furthermore the point i made in my initial post is that in a big 3'er (in your case Muslim) practicing capoeira is HARAM! Capoeira praises the ancestors, Earth and ORISHAS!

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

if you look at christianity as a constantly evolving and changing parasitic type entity, then you see why they can both have certain core beliefs and at the same time, allow for seemingly conflicting beliefs on the extremities. look at how many times the products (christians) change their beliefs and actions in history concerning specific events/ideas... this is evidence of their fluid/adjusting nature (one present in MANY other spiritual systems) that is somewhat a mirror image of their own evolving/changing spiritual system. although static in WORD and unmoving on PAPER, the "Big Three" actually ARE changing...

...and will probably eventually phase out, or morph into something the believers today wouldn't recognize in the future anyways.

plus, you know as well as i do, that more people are connected to their CULTURE than to their religion here in the US. after all christianity is but only a subset in the greater WESTERN cultural realm.

Red, Black, Green

I know this, but i want jews, christians and muslims to explain themselves. I want to THEIR justifications. So if you want to help you should ask those SWAM (SWAT?) guys this. *shakes head*

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

i asked too many questions and they interrupted me by saying "we have class now" and 'ol dude never "had time" to answer any more.

Red, Black, Green

the Tao to see why it would be contridictory. Again, I don't know about ALL churches, or even all SDA church, but in the youth program I grew up in the Book of Mormon, Quo'ran, Taoist principles, as well as the Greek Translated bible were introduced to us, and we openly discussed belief systems and how they work...From what I know of Taoist principle, and books I have read- I don't come away with anything incredibly contradicting TRUE Christian principles. In fact the Eastern philosophy books I have picked up seemed to use parables, and reminded me of the book of proverbs in the Bible.

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

"In t'ai chi, the accompanying religion/philosophy is Taoism. How do the big 3 see/understand concepts of "chi" and "ying-yang"? These concepts clearly cannot be understood by the big 3, "ying-yang" especially, because it nullifies the existence of "God vs. Devil."

Red, Black, Green

I've read Chwang Tzu, and Yi Monial, and to me the principles did not fall far from my own belief systems. Then again, they didn't really explain the Principles, like I said they were mostly just stories.

I have to admit, I had a hard time grasping some of it and had to read some chapters over, but I always likened Chi, to the concept of the Holy spirit, which really isn't what is translated to seem like being in the King James Version. Ask Greg Soundz...he should be able to shed light on the subject.

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

but I always likened Chi, to the concept of the Holy spirit

Red, Black, Green

many times people get the wrong interpretations, and pass this info on those outside the church:

http://hector3000.future.easyspace.com/soul.htm

http://hector3000.future.easyspace.com/

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

apparently from the links you gave, soul is a metal creation, a word given to an abstract idea that one must identify with because of outside stimuli (i.e. being TAUGHT what it is), an idea that is transmitted over paper...and at BEST not one with much solidarity (as exposed in your links pointing out differences in use).

CHI on the other hand is tangible. something you can manipulate and USE. have you ever experienced chi? have you ever used it? have you ever done anything with it? have you ever consciously manipulated it?

the difference between STUDYING an idea like SPIRIT and SOUL from a christian perspective is that at most times that all you can do. you can THINK about god, but not manipulate him, you can THINK aout spirit but not manipulate it at WILL. this allows for a "interpretational" perspective on the individual level. meaning: since noone can really get into your relationshp with waht you believe, you are RIGHT no matter what they say, cuz all in all, no one can prove you wrong. it also allows for interpretation of OTHER (e.g. your association between holy spirit and chi) based on nothing more than your relationship with the FAMILIAR (holy spirit) to the UNFAMILIAR (chi) without even bothering to ATTEMPT to understand it. this is the arrogance of christian and western thought. the belief that without understanding (by means done WITHIN said unfamiliar system) you can equate something that is totally foreign to you.

Red, Black, Green

As I said...I'm studying these eastern philosphies as we speak, and I stated that I don't completly understand it, and from MY interpretation of Christianity (as it is called) A true believer can do everything that Jesus did which is the application of Chi, as far as my understanding has taken me so far...I went to the institute one night(Deprong) and what I heard still coiincides with where my belief systems lie...am I wrong to explore? How is it that someone can go from studying to knowledge? It take time...and time is what I'm taking. Don't lecture me on western this or that...one thing has little to do with the other man.

I stated that I don't completly understand, but as for now- this is my understanding.

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

"A true believer can do everything that Jesus did which is the application of Chi"

-how do you know that with the application of chi one can do everything that jesus did? e.g. can one use chi to turn 2 loaves of bread and a fish into an amount that can feed a multitude? if so, what properties of chi led you to belive and state this? more importantly if you stated this, one might assume that you've a)seen it done through use of chi or 2)had someone tell you they've witnessed it being done through use of chi?

in all questions i'm assuming that were talking about the classic use of the word chi and all definitions, rules, regulations and limitations thereof.

Red, Black, Green

>"A true believer can do everything that Jesus did which is
>the application of Chi"
>
>-how do you know that with the application of chi one can do
>everything that jesus did? e.g. can one use chi to turn 2
>loaves of bread and a fish into an amount that can feed a
>multitude?

The loaves of bread story as known to those reading English translations is not accurate.

if so, what properties of chi led you to belive
>and state this? more importantly if you stated this, one
>might assume that you've a)seen it done through use of chi
>or 2)had someone tell you they've witnessed it being done
>through use of chi? in all questions i'm assuming that were talking about the classic use of the word chi and all definitions, rules, >regulations and limitations thereof.

and as far as chi...you have to understand what I am saying.
I said I don't have a full grasp of the concept, but to ME they don't seem unrelated.

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

"i don't fully grasp the kiswahili language. but to me it doesn't seem unrelated to english."

of course they are both languages, and they are both spoken by people. but to make any assumptions as to their use or their purpose without KNOWING kiswahili is ignorant.

you CAN make a statement about the above concerning english and spanish because they ARE so very related. but in dissimilar cultural contexts, an assumption poses BIG problems when trying to understand something "foreign".

again, it is classic western arrogance that allows its constituents to make bridges from THEIR ideology to OTHERS without even knowing the first thing about the unfamiliar subject.

you say you don't fully know about CHI, but make statements that align it with something within YOUR system. it's like me looking at the japanese charater for evil and then saying it is just like the american concept of Christianity... i CAN find similarities when looking at the history of that religion, but it would be inaccurate in light of the many positive things about christianity. (?!?!? did I just say that?!?!? anyways...)

it's not wise to make a statement based on partial knowledge. tis better to have patience until you come full circle with your understanding.

Red, Black, Green

Post #7 where I said I don't know enought about...the Tao to see why it would be contridictory. Again, I don't know about ALL churches, or even all SDA church, but in the youth program I grew up in the Book of Mormon, Quo'ran, Taoist principles, as well as the Greek Translated bible were introduced to us, and we openly discussed belief systems and how they work...From what I know of Taoist principle, and books I have read- I don't come away with anything incredibly contradicting TRUE Christian principles. In fact the Eastern philosophy books I have picked up seemed to use parables, and reminded me of the book of proverbs in the Bible.

and from that I saw things that seemed related...and looking for parallelisms (sp) is not specifically a western thought. Prove that it is, and that people never questioned or wondered (much like obediah) and you will have no argument from me.

I think you were just ready to go off...and so you did. I already said I didn't know enough, and from what I understood these principles were similar.

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

you STUDIED from your own center. NOT that of the very thing you were learning about.

but i see where you're coming from.

Red, Black, Green

I just didn't want people to think that I was ignorant enought to just make blind associations, cus that was not the case. I'm still learning.

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

Funny would one say ase is similar to chi?

the concept of a of ying-yang nullifies the good vs. evil basis of the big 3. Ying-yang promotes the dual complementarity of the forces in the universe while Big 3 believe in polar opposites of universal forces. "g.o.d." is all good vs. the devil that is all evil. g.o.d. created the universe and is superior to the devil thus good>evil. In Taoism, neither is better or worse but tend to balance one another out. Furthermore male principle> than female principle but again in Taoism the two balance each other out.

Then let's not even talk about capoeira! According to the Big 3 that's "idolatry" at it's best!

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

at least with Islam.
What is correct and what is incorrect has not change nor has the practice of classical Islam hindered living in the "Modern Age" with technology to need changing to better adapt in a Modern world. Or to better relate to the people of the day.

I would like to know what gave you such an idea. What are your sources for this?
Peace
H

that is
>somewhat a mirror image of their own evolving/changing
>spiritual system. although static in WORD and unmoving on
>PAPER, the "Big Three" actually ARE changing...


i don't see this so much in Islam. i believe the other 2 have ruled out flogging ppl and other such punishments for great "sins." but Islam...no i don't think so.

Kemetian
--------------------------------------
check it out:
www.natureworksforyou.co
m

"Pour libation for your father
and mother who rest in the
valley of the dead. God will
witness your action and
accept it. Do not forget to
do this

what i find with these ridiculous yoga tapes/classes/etc. is that the philosophy behind the movement is reduced to breathing for a better stretch and repetitions of "namastay" with these cheesy i'm-a-peaceful-hippie-type smiles

<<shudder>>

that kinda ignorance couples beutifully with any major religion

.....

"Who need fossil fuel when the sun ain't goin' nowhere"
- Amiri Baraka

http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines

BUY MY BOOK- only $6! Inbox me for details

so much to the point that the americans REALLY think that there is nothing behind it BESIDES the physical/psychological shit. it reduces it to an extracurricular event.vs. a way of life.

that long haired chinese yoga dude from oprah was here recently and i heard the dumbest convos walking through the whole foods that he was supposed to be at before the event...

Red, Black, Green

seen the yoga tapes?

with my limited schedule, i'm stuck with 20 minute yoga tapes. recently i've been doing this yogazone 2 X 20 minutes sunup & sundown tape, which works well as a stretching/exercise tape but ideologically bugs the hell outta me

.....

"Who need fossil fuel when the sun ain't goin' nowhere"
- Amiri Baraka

http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines

BUY MY BOOK- only $6! Inbox me for details

i refuse to BUY something that i could get a real life teacher to teach me personally.

tv is really starting to physically hurt me. i'm trying to see wheteher or not i can sue tv manufacturers for some kinda "tv ray" that is emitting from them and giving me headaches. so far i've crossed the "you don't have to watch" hurdle by pointing out streetwindow vendors that don't shield their evil rays with a protective film. this is a violation of my rights to personal health!

plus they're expensive... $30 bucks a tape?!?!? *sheesh*

Red, Black, Green

uhm hell no. i'm half.com wishlisting em.

i think the computer is zapping my eyes slowly, and i agree wholeheartedly about the tv.

.....

"Who need fossil fuel when the sun ain't goin' nowhere"
- Amiri Baraka

http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines

BUY MY BOOK- only $6! Inbox me for details

(which i REALLY need to get back to)

and i know just what you mean...

i know they're just trying to simplify things, but knowing that most of the people with the tape probably don't realize that...

*double shudder*

_____________________________
"But we are not anti-American. We are anti or against what America is doing wrong in other parts of the world as well as here... Now, you're not supposed to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or who says it..." ~Malcolm X

"as moons and responsibilities confound me/and death is my messiah, distantly arriving/winged and unconquerable/in the knowledge that I shall rest/I can continue, ever." (c) limbic_system

"u can teach your boy to do that" (c) meshell

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

(well not really because yoga systems are not "combative")

but hell yeah, that shit is the funniest. And never makes sense to me. Either be real with you ish or don't BE at all!

I should inbox osoclasi & Jennyfer to get their opinion on this.

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

hahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahah (myself included, i'm sure) hahahahhahahahhahahahha

it's that ridiculous/ignorant/if it's natural then it has to be good demeanor that made me choose a dr over a midwife

the best example of this ignorance is a new product i saw at fresh fields- it's a natural indoor pesticide that's safe for humans, plants & food, but kills bugs on contact. it's made of 2% orange rinds and 98% other. and people believe that bull! people, if it can kill anything "on contact" it's not safe and gentle like it says on the label- don't believe the hype!

.....

"Who need fossil fuel when the sun ain't goin' nowhere"
- Amiri Baraka

http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines

BUY MY BOOK- only $6! Inbox me for details

>Because of typical American/European WHITEWASHING, many
>systems (particularly Asian) the "religious" component is
>often watered down or taken out completely, as one can see
>in the "McDojos" of karate and also taekwondo schools.

You're right about this, of course, but a simple stroll through a suburban church of any denomination on a sunday morning would show what a revelation even this "watered down" version of physical. In your post, I feel like you oversimplified what you perceive as the rigidly dualistic nature of western religion (though, I'm a Christian and, for the rest of this post, that is the perspective I'll be answering from. So, unless I state otherwise, we can rid ourselves of the burden of clarifying "Western religion" repeatedly. The burden of unnecessarily long parenthetical asides, however, will be continued throughout.) without emphasizing enough the even more stark (and irritating) duality that we place on body vs. soul.

Most Christian traditions, even (unfortunately) post-Vatican II Catholics owe so much to Martin Luther, and his iconoclasm has caricatured itself repeatedly in the centuries since his direct work until we are left with a faith that offers nothing tangible. All of my books are in Chicago, and I'm in Minneapolis, so I wont be able to provide much references outside of what I can dig up on the 'net, but there is a Luther essay in which, among other things, posits the idea of a priesthood of all believers. Part of this means a rejection of the physical manifestations of Catholic priesthood: the vestments, the smoke, the imagery, etc. What this has blossomed into is something I think I've seen you observe, the ignorance of dietary restrictions. The repeated kneeling, stnding, sitting, etc. of Catholics has been excised from many protestant masses, and even us Catholics have done away with laborious 2 hour masses and only five inches of church pew to sit on so that we stay awake.

Get my point yet? Spirit and Body in Christian faith have been regarded as totally distinct entities. We don't need to kneel for God or flagellate ourselves or even eat well enough to avoid getting obese and sick With fat-ass America as the last western Christian bastion, I don't really see this improving. Online ministries are just a click away so you can attend only with your eyes. You mentioned how watered down they were, but later conceded that most of these have a spiritual system (for lack of better words) entrenched. The fact that westerners have embraced ANY spiritual tradition that involves the body is borderline remarkable. Of course, its still baby shit, so....


>This brings me to the big 3 (Judaism, Chrisitianity, Islam).
> In many cases one can simply focus on learning the
>"techniques" and not the rituals or philosophies that go
>along with it.

This is probably the closest answer to your actual question. They don't try and justify it. Even when we're doing it, we're not used to tying physical activity and spiritual activity together in our minds. THAT is the problem of dualistic Christian thought and that is what makes this alleged paradox possible. Folks don't think about it. People aren't used to evaluating their physical activities on that level. For example in college, I took yoga because I was hoping to run the steeplechase.... Thats a sort of boring answer though, so I'll continue to ignore the obvious.

>In t'ai chi, the accompanying religion/philosophy
>is Taoism. How do the big 3 see/understand concepts of
>"chi" and "ying-yang"? These concepts clearly cannot be
>understood by the big 3, "ying-yang" especially, because it
>nullifies the existence of "God vs. Devil."

This is where I think you oversimplify. Lets look at Luther again. His view of humankind was 'simul iustus et peccator': "at once righteous and sinful". If I was a jackass who insisted on paralelling things that had nothing to do with each other (and, to lift an idea from your "god is immanent and transcendant" post, that would make me a big jackass) I'd try to compare this to yin/yang. I'd also compare Luther's idea of God's grace to Ch'i. Certainly, there are some (mostly superficial) similarities. It would be a misunderstanding of all ideas, but if people were really interested in offering a explanation of it based in theology, I wouldn't be surprised if this is where they went. Its not the real reason though. People aren't used to assigning spiritual ideas to physical actions, and so... it simply isn't justified. After all, we wouldn't need a reason from God to go for a run, and if that's what these activities have been reduced to, then....

In any case, "simul iustus et peccator" is a longshot from yin/yang, particularly when we're dealing with complex concepts rather than slogans (of course, I've presented it sans nuance here because Luther is a pain in the ass to discuss) but its also a longshot from "god vs. Devil" or "Good vs. Evil".

The struggle that Luther made Christian (if we to stick with bumper sticker reductionism) is "Person vs. Shemself" ("shemself" is serving as made-up gender-neutral pronoun here) and kind of, in a way, "Person vs. God". Luther's struggle was proving to himself that he merited God's grace. He couldn't do it and went batshit crazy.

Anyhow, getting too far into discussion of Luther's theology is a terrible idea for this board, but the "Person vs. Shemself" dichotomy is a more accurate if you insist on setting up something so simple. In one sermon, Luther writes, "Should one imagine he is able to do anything good of his own strength he does no less than make Christ the Lord a liar."


>In capoeira,
>_EVERYTHING_ (let me say this again) _EVERYTHING_ is tied to
>an orisha; the instruments, music, movements, rituals,
>_EVERYTHING_! Capoeira and Candomble are sisters with the
>same Afrikan parents. In fact capoeira is a religion within
>itself. *My favorite quote from an angolero: "Church?! I
>don't need church! I got capoeira!"

This is where I want my church to head (minus the "i don't need church" part). Post Vatican II Catholics (and despite the references to Luther, I should note that I am catholic) have dismissed the importance of fully worshipping. The movements, the ritual, the incense, the music, the liturgy ALL should equal the Catholic community... but they rarely do. Its not a theological reason, but the best justification I can think of for one of us to participate in aforementioned activities is that it provides a perfect perspective for understanding what is wrong with Christianity right now. We CAN'T be Taoists or Buddhists or anything Eastern for that matter because we simply AREN'T, but those traditions can provide a mirror we can hold up to expose our own flaws. When all we can be is Christian, we might as well be good at it and make it mean something.

Of course, I would argue that this idea, given are (deserved) reputation for taking, taking and more taking without giving back, should lend itself to observation rather than participation, but nobody's listening to anything else I say, so I doubt that will happen either.

So there it is. I hope that isn't too convoluted. If anybody has any questions about what I've said, please ask. If anybody has any factual points to correct, please do so politely. I can't restate enough that I'm nearly useless while all of my literature is boxed up in Chicago.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

>>>This brings me to the big 3 (Judaism, Chrisitianity, Islam).
>> In many cases one can simply focus on learning the
>>"techniques" and not the rituals or philosophies that go
>>along with it.
>
>This is probably the closest answer to your actual question.
> They don't try and justify it.

ok


>>In t'ai chi, the accompanying religion/philosophy
>>is Taoism. How do the big 3 see/understand concepts of
>>"chi" and "ying-yang"? These concepts clearly cannot be
>>understood by the big 3, "ying-yang" especially, because it
>>nullifies the existence of "God vs. Devil."
>
>This is where I think you oversimplify. Lets look at Luther
>again. His view of humankind was 'simul iustus et
>peccator': "at once righteous and sinful".

How is this "oversimplified." The statement was not about "humankind" but the "universe" as a whole (i.e. something "other" and "larger" than humans).
>In any case, "simul iustus et peccator" is a longshot from
>yin/yang, particularly when we're dealing with complex
>concepts rather than slogans (of course, I've presented it
>sans nuance here because Luther is a pain in the ass to
>discuss) but its also a longshot from "god vs. Devil" or
>"Good vs. Evil".
>
>The struggle that Luther made Christian (if we to stick with
>bumper sticker reductionism) is "Person vs. Shemself"
>("shemself" is serving as made-up gender-neutral pronoun
>here) and kind of, in a way, "Person vs. God". Luther's
>struggle was proving to himself that he merited God's grace.
> He couldn't do it and went batshit crazy.
>
>Anyhow, getting too far into discussion of Luther's theology
>is a terrible idea for this board, but the "Person vs.
>Shemself" dichotomy is a more accurate if you insist on
>setting up something so simple. In one sermon, Luther
>writes, "Should one imagine he is able to do anything good
>of his own strength he does no less than make Christ the
>Lord a liar."
>
>
>>In capoeira,
>>_EVERYTHING_ (let me say this again) _EVERYTHING_ is tied to
>>an orisha; the instruments, music, movements, rituals,
>>_EVERYTHING_! Capoeira and Candomble are sisters with the
>>same Afrikan parents. In fact capoeira is a religion within
>>itself. *My favorite quote from an angolero: "Church?! I
>>don't need church! I got capoeira!"
>
>This is where I want my church to head (minus the "i don't
>need church" part).

See capoeira CANNOT be reduced to simply a physical activity as much as t'ai chi is. Capoeira by nature is very communal and not an activity that can be practiced alone. Capoeira demands one has music and others in which a true capoeira experience can be had. Sure one can do capoeira movements alone but the nature of learning cannot be done alone. Thereby, capoeira (moreso than t'ai chi and many Asian arts in general) more actively exposes the fundamental Afrikan concepts that oppose big 3 concepts. Only the de-traditionalized, capoeira regional, created by Mestre Bimba (which he taught to white folks, surprise?) masks the Afrikan spirit of capoeira. however when further learning the songs and further diving into it, the truth will become apparent.


>So there it is. I hope that isn't too convoluted. If
>anybody has any questions about what I've said, please ask.
>If anybody has any factual points to correct, please do so
>politely. I can't restate enough that I'm nearly useless
>while all of my literature is boxed up in Chicago.

Thanks.

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

i personally would like to study certain fists and springs from china, more specifically the ones that chinese muslims made or made better.

that way, there is no doubt about it.

also those martial arts from indonesia that indonesian muslims made whatthey are today.

that way, there is no confusion.

but as far as a "justification" is concerned, then you would have to ask a muslim who does this.

there are certain aspects that i would take, and he rest i would leave, just to be aware and knowledegeable of the subject anto be able to complete the lesson.

b/c indeed the saying "know they enemy" is a saying worth saying.

>i personally would like to study certain fists and springs
>from china, more specifically the ones that chinese muslims
>made or made better.

http://cclib.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/statyi/mosl.html

This article was published in Qigong Wushu Kung Fu, June- July 1996. The article was posted on the kung fu mailing list for review prior to publication.
Moslem Influence on Traditional Chinese Martial Arts
by Salvatore Canzonieri
The Hui Peoples
A little known fact about China is that it houses the second largest Moslem population in the world. These people are called the Hui and number about fourteen million. During the 10th Century (the Song Dynasty - 960 to 1279 AD), many Persians and Arabs traveled to and from China. Eventually, some of these people made permanent settlements and intermingled with the various Chinese peoples they encountered (China contains about 55 different minority groups), causing the Islamic religion to spread to various parts of China. By the 13th Century, the Hui were widely scattered throughout China, but many mostly Moslem communities emerged in the Northern regions, particularly in the Henan, Hebei, Shangtung, and Shaanxi provinces.

Embracing of Chinese Martial Arts One of the things that the Hui people embraced most about China was its martial arts traditions. The Hui were a hardy and courageous people, surviving the long and perilous journey from the Persian (Iraqi/Iranian) Middle Eastern lands. The Hui quickly took a liking to ancient Chinese wu shu (such as Shuai Chiao or Chinese Grappling, Pao Quan, Tong Bei Quan, Liu Ho Quan, Tai Tzu Chang Quan, Ba Ji Quan, Pi Qua Quan, etc.) and worked long and hard at excelling in it. Eventually they developed their own unique styles of wu shu (such as the Cha Quan, Hua Quan, 10 Routine Tan Toi, Liu Lu Duan Quan, Toi Quan, Yong Chan Quan, and others) by assimilating the various styles of Chinese wu shu that were indigenous to the North.

Before the invention of guns, wu shu was the major means of combat and self defense in China. The Hui chiefs called upon their people to learn wu shu as a "holy practice" in order to help foster discipline and bravery during their struggle for survival in their adopted land. Even today, during their holy days of Lesser Bairam (festival of fast breaking), Corban, and the Prophet's Birthday, the Hui people gather at their local mosques and hold wu shu contests and exhibitions. In the past, many of the Hui joined the Chinese military and had illustrious careers in it, often rising to the rank of General. Also, because of this, many Hui were fiercely loyal about supporting the various Chinese Emperors, even though the Hui were of foreign origin.

Hui Loyalty to Chinese Empire
After the Mongolians had taken over China, forming the Yuan Dynasty (1279-1368), many Chinese loyalists schemed to bring back the throne to China. A peasant uprising finally succeeded in uniting the Chinese people against their Mongol invaders. The rebellion was led by Zhu Yuan Zhang, who toppled the Mongolian imperial court and founded the much beloved Ming Dynasty, becoming its first emperor. Fighting with him were some of China's most famous generals (i.e., Chang Yu Chun, Hu Da Hai, Mu Ying, Lan Yu, Feng Sheng, and Ding De Xing), who were all Hui Moslem wu shu experts. Chang Yu Chan became famous for founding a spear fighting method that is still taught today, the famous "kai ping qiang fa".

During the turmoil of the later Ming Dynasty period (1368- 1644), when the invading Manchu tribe made many raids on the Chinese empire and eventually took it over, many Hui fought sought by side with the Chinese Han people in rebellions against the Manchu Ching Dynasty. Ma Shou Ying, a Hui Moslem, together with Li Zi Cheng (King Chuang) participated in the rebellion, leading a troop of mostly Moslem peasants. Ma was called "Lao Hui Hui", meaning "Hui the Senior" and his troops were called the "Lao Hui Hui Battalion". Even after the Manchu succeeded in controlling China, the Hui fought against them. In 1862, Du Wen Xiu lead an uprising of the Hui people in Yunnan Province (against Ching Emperor Tong Zhi) and swept over a dozen provinces in southwest and northwest China.

Because of the Hui's continued loyalty to the Chinese Empire, throughout the Ching Dynasty (1644-1911), the Hui were treated cruelly and ruthlessly suppressed whenever they showed the least bit of malcontent against the Manchu rulers. It was made forbidden for three or more Huis to walk together with weapons on them or they would be severely punished. If any Huis were caught committing crimes, they were tattooed on their faces with the characters "Hui zui" ("Hui rebel"). This punishment was meant to humiliate the Hui while at the same time serving to intimidate them from further rebellious actions. But, suppression only served to make the Hui people more determined than ever.

Hui Contribution to Chinese Martial Arts
After the Ming Dynasty, in opposition to the martial arts prohibition forced upon by the Manchurian Ching Dynasty, many Hui wu shu masters developed their own schools of wu shu that continue to exist to this day. The contributions of these Hui wu shu masters have been far reaching and embraced by many styles of Chinese wu shu kung fu. In the Jixiao Xinshu, written by the famous Ming military strategist Qi Ji Guang, three famous spear schools are listed (the Yang, Ma, and Sha families). Both the Ma and Sha families were Hui. These spear methods are still taught today among their family descendants. Also, the "Hui Hui Shi Ba Zou" (18 fist fighting exercises of the Hui) was considered to be the very best in combat exercises. The noted anti-Ching public figure Gan Feng Chi included the exercises in his book Hua Quan Zong Jiang Fa (A General Talk on Flower Boxing).

There have been many famous Hui wu shu martial artists, with them often winning national wu shu competitions that were open to all styles. Wang Zi Ping (1881-1973) was a very famous Cha Quan master and he won honors by defeating many foreigners in wu shu contests with his swift and fierce attacks, while representing China. Wang was vice-president of the Chinese Wu Shu Association. At 80 years of age, he accompanied the later Premier Chou En Lai on his visit to Burma and gave an exhibition that astounded the audience with his dexterity and vigor. Ma Fengtu set up the patriotic China Warriors Society (in 1919). His brother Ma Yingtu won the title at the first national wu shu contest held in 1929. Chang Wen Quang was another great Cha Quan master, winning many tournaments. In 1936, he attended the 11th Olympics Games in Berlin as a specially invited member of the Chinese Wu Shu team. There he gave demonstrations ofvarious routines from the Cha Quan style. He later became vice-president of the National Wu Shu Association.

The Shaolin Temple even adopted the Hoi people's Tan Toi (springing leg) style of wu shu as a training form to develop the legs and stamina of it students, as did many other Northern and Southern schools of kung fu. It is a common saying in traditional Chinese wu shu circles that "if your tan toi is good, then you're kung fu is good", because mastering the demands of tan toi allowed one to master the basic fundamentals of wu shu kung fu in general. The Hui's Tan Toi became very popular all over China, leading to another saying, " From Nanking to Beijing, the best players of the lower-leg exercises come from Islamic religious circles". The Cha Quan and Hua Quan boxing styles that are today enjoyed by Northern Long Fist schools also were developed by the Hui peoples. Other styles developed or adopted by the Huis are Ba Ji Quan (Eight Diagram Boxing, handed down by the Moslem Wu Zhong), Liu He (six combination) spear, Liu He Quan, Hebei Xing I Quan, Tong Bei Quan, Pi Qua Quan, and Liu He Ba Fa. There are conflicting but similar origin stories between the Cha/Hua Quan styles and the Tan Toi style.

The Origin of the Cha/Hua Quan Styles
According to the Cha family boxing chronicles, Cha Quan is a popular and very old Northern Chinese fighting style, originating around the same time as Shaolin was developing. The style is based on quick, agile movements interspersed with sudden stops and steady still stances, performers are said to be "now moving like the wind, now standing nailed to the ground." During the Tang Dynasty (618-907 AD), the Emperor sent a military crusade on an expedition to eastern China, to fight off foreign invaders. When the army reached Guanxian County in present day Shangtung Province, a young general (and Hui Moslem) named Hua Zong Qi was forced to remain behind to recuperate from serious wounds. When he recovered, he was most grateful to the villagers who cared for him, and he decided to teach the local people his martial art, which he called Jianzi Quan (Frame Boxing).

A great number of people became his followers due to his good wu shu skills and earnest teaching methods. Soon, his classes grew so big that he sent for his senior student from his home town to help him, Cha Yuan Yi. Cha was quite proficient at martial arts as well, but his Jianzi Quan had a different emphasis than that of General Hua's. Hua's version had fully extended movements and was called Da Jia Quan (big frame boxing); Cha's version had fast, compact movements and was called Xiao Jia Quan (small frame boxing).

The two versions were taught as one style. The villagers discontinued the Jianzi Quan name and instead calledthe style, Cha-Hua Boxing. The Hua version had 4 routines (or forms) that were long and full of varied tricky moves. The names of the four forms are are known simply as Hua Quan 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4thLu.

The Cha version had 10 routines of varying lengths and complexity. The names of the ten forms are:

Mu Zi (Mother and Son)
Xing Shou (Parallel Hand Movement)
Fei Jiao (Flying Foot)
Sun Bin (Rising Horizon/name of famous General Sun Bin)
Quan Dong (Eastern Gate)
Mai Fu (Ambush Tiger)
Mei Fa (Plum Flower)
Lian Wuan (Continous)
Long Bai Wai (Shake Dragon's Tail)
Chuan Quan (Vertical Fist)
Many of the Cha routines are used today in various Northern long fist schools, especially the 4th Routine and5th Routine. Both versions have made a huge influence on the modern Chang Quan (long fist) practiced inChina today, which has chosen to use many of the techniques from theHui style.

By the time of the Ching Dynasty, under the reign of Emperor Qian Long (1736-1795), the Cha-Hua style became divided into three technical schools at Guanxian County and Rencheng County in Shangtung Province. The Zhang style, represented by Zhang Qi Wei from Zhangyin Village at Guanxian, is fast, agile, and more compact. The Yang style, represented by Yang Hongxiu from the southern part of Guanxian, is more upright, comfortable, and graceful in execution. The Li style, repesented by Li Enju from Jining, is more powerful, continuous, and direct.

The general characteristics of the Cha-Hua style are that its movements and techniques are graceful, easy, clear, continuous, and rhythmic in execution. Strength and force is generated abruptly and there is economical use of energy. The boxing method stresses using both the hands and feet at the same time when executing fighting movements. Continuous attacks are employed, combined with various tricky moves to evade and deceive the opponent, in order to quickly overcome the enemy.

The Origin of the Tan Toi Style
The Tan Toi or "springing leg" style is more modern in origin, said to be developed during the Ming Dynasty. (1368- 1644). Ten Routine Tan Toi is one of the most favorite martial arts enjoyed by the Hui peoples. Tan Toi was said to be developed by a Hui native of Xinjiang, in Northwest China, named Cha Shang Yir. His Moslem name was Chamir and he lived from 1568 to 1644. In the mid period of his life, the Chinese coast in Fukien and Zhejiang Provinces was besieged by Japanese pirates. Ming Dynasty rules had amassed troops to fight back these invaders. Chamir joined the army to be part of this crusade. The troops had to march on foot a long way to get to the southeast under very harsh conditions. While climbing mountains and crossing rivers, Chamir contracted a strong illness due to the coldness and wetness. He was left behind to recuperate in a mountain village in Guanxian County in Shangtung Province.

He was treated and cared for by the villagers for a few months. When he was fully recovered, being the Autumn season, he noticed that the local peasant villagers had finished their harvesting and were now practicing riding and shooting. Chamir, in wishing to repay them for the hospitality and caring they showed him, offered to teach the villagers the Tan Toi and 10 Routine Boxing that he had developed and performed for many years. The villagers welcomed his martial arts lessons and many people came to learn from Chamir. Over time, the villagers called his boxing style, Cha Quan. The boxing style originally consisted of 28 routines, which were put in alphabetical order, according to the Arabic language commonly used by the Hui. Later, the 28 routines were synthesized into the 10 Routine Tan Toi known today. The names of the Ten Routines and the original song for them are translated as follows:

Coherent Steps
Cross Pattern
Slash and Squash
Uphold Palm
Uphold Fist
Crook and Sprinkle
Flower Bending
Stamp and Thread
Lock and Stick
Flying Kick
The Original Song of the Ten Routine Spring Leg:
Handed down from the ancestors, the Ten Routine Spring Leg consists of "four work and one exertion".
Routine One teaches you coherent steps that are hard to resist.
Routine Two passes on the skill of cross that gives you the knack of springing and shooting.
Routine Three tells you how to slash and squash so that you can brave the darkness.
Routine Four enables you to block the advesary with a shooting palm.
Routine Five instructs you to prepare for an incoming ill intent.
Routine Six guides you to advance and grapple by artifice of crooking and sprinkling.
Routine Seven teaches you the flowery elbow-bending as a means of defense.
Routine Eight directs you to stamp and tread with body rotation and hands waving.
Routine Nine gives you the skill of locking and sticking with a sweeping leg of a Manadarin duck.
Routine Ten teaches you the flying kick - the key skill of spring leg.
If not following set rules, your practice is a waste of time.
Plain and simple though the skill may be, you will find it a powerful weapon after persistent training practice.
Protecting body and building up strength, it offers you many fold skills in fighting the enemy.
As the first technique since the beginning of history, the Ten Routine Spring Leg has been handed down from generation to generation.
The Monks at the nearby Shangtung Long Tam Buddhist Temple learned of the Tan Toi from the local peopleand wished to incorporate it into their fighting routines that they practiced. The Monks further developed itinto the 12 Routine Tam Toi (named after the temple). The main difference between the temple versions andthe Hui version of the style is that in the Hui version the kicks are done at waist height and higher and in thetemple versions the kicks are generally made at the knee level and lower. In comparing the original Hui 10Routine and the original 12 Shangtung Long Tam Routine styles, Routines 1 through 5 are the same, Routines6 through 8 are very different, Routines 9 and 10 are essentially similar but with definite variation intechniques, and Routines 11 and 12 are only done by the 12 Routine style. The names of the 12 Tan Toi Routines are translated as follows:

Striking Forward
Crossed Legs
Hitting and Smashing
Waving with Palm
Strikingwith One Fist & Protecting with the Other
Revolving Both Fists
Striking Forward with One Arm Swinging ni Circles
Kicking and Striking
Locking the Hands Together
Kicking Forward in Jumping Position
Striking Forward in Advance Position
Cover Body with Fists (Pi Shen Quan)
The 10 Routine Tam Toi Song:
Routine One is to hit the enemy as you hit with a whip.
Routine Two is to strike with both fists crossed.
Routine Three is to knock the enemy's head.
Routine Four is to bar the road with fists.
Routine Five is to strike and protect yourself with the arms.
Routine Six is to hit with single fists.
Routine Seven is hit with both fists.
Routine Eight is to swing your fists sideward or backward.
Routine Nine is to hold the fists together.
Routine Ten is to kick with your foot as if it is an arrow.
The 12 Routine Tam Toi Song:
Strike forward with a single fist in advance position.
Hit the enemy with both fists crossed.
Knock the enemy's head with your body turning backward.
Strike with the fists and kick the enemy with the feet.
Protect your head and hit the enemy's chest.
Strike with both fists; prostrasting legs.
Hit the enemy's ear with one fist and kick him hard.
Protect your head and groin with the fists.
Hold the fists together and separate them.
Kick your enemy with the foot as you hit him with an arrow.
Strike sideward with hook fists.
Recover the original position.
The Long Tam Monks also later developed other tam toi forms, in total they practiced the 10 Routine form,the 12 Routine form, the Two-Man Tam Toi form, and the Liu Lu Tuan Quan Tan Toi form (6 Routine ShortRange Boxing). Later still, the Shaolin Temple adopted the 10 and 12 Tam Toi styles andthen developedtheir own very different versions of the routines. Other people developed the Liu Ho Tan Toi (6 HarmoniesSpring Leg), Toi Quan (Leg Boxing), Jie Tan Toi (Suceeding Spring Leg), a 16 Routine Tan Toi, and an 18Routine Tan Toi, based on the original Hui style. Today, the Tan Toi (and Tam Toi) routines have beenadded to the curriculum of most martial arts schools.

The 12 Tan Toi version taught by the Jing Wu Association has become the most famous and widely practiced throughout the world. It is considered a prerequisite for all beginners in the Chinese martial arts and serves to lay the foundation for all the essential basic elements of one's wu shu kung fu practices. All the techniques and movements employed by the Tan Toi style can be found in all styles of long fist/ long range fighting. Thus, by mastering the Tan Toi form, one is able to master tradtional Chinese wu shu kung fu in general and is able to progress and learn many otherforms.

The Tan Toi forms build up the body due to its strenuous demands for low body height, precise movements, and forceful execution. Also, it teaches such combat skills as springing, kicking, stamping, sweeping, thrusting, grappling, punching, pushing, hooking, sticking, etc. Body mechanics are coordinated so that maximum force is issued with smooth effectiveness and efficiency. The waist is used as an axis to set the upper and lower limbs moving in coordinating movements. Relaxation is emphasized in posing correct postures, coordinating various parts of the body, exerting force smoothly, and making nimble movements. Through relaxed, smooth exertion, force can be quickly concentrated on the striking point, so that there appears a sudden springing or snap force that is produced as the movement picks up speed and then a sudden tightening of the muscles is made at the instant of force exertion.

Conclusion
Although the Hoi Moslem Chinese people are originally of foreign descent, they strove to adapt to their new homeland. In doing so, they embraced the traditional Chinese martial arts and made it part of their own culture. Eventually, their expertise in these martial arts allowed Hui martial arts masters to develop their own styles and methods of wu shu kung fu. By today's times, the Hui martial arts became an influence on traditional Chinese martial arts and their ideas for combat and routines have been assimilated into the curriculum of many Northern Long Fist schools. The Cha/Hua Quan techniques have found their way into modern Chang Quan Kung Fu and the Tan Toi routines have been made a foundation for many people's martial arts training, both in China and in the rest of the world.

curious....

how did the muslems THEN justify the practice of these asian arts?

Red, Black, Green

.

keep in mind that "karate" can be replaced w/ whatever 'martial art' that fits the description described below.

also, it appears from the answerer's wording that he is referring to 'tournament' karate, more specifically when he talks about restraining blows, etc.....

Question:
What is the ruling on playing karate?

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah. 

Karate is one of the martial arts, a form of self-defence using one?s hands, without any kind of weapon. It allows hitting with the foot, fist or edge of the hand, focusing on concentrating all one's energy in that blow.

 The shar?i viewpoint of this sport:

 The sport includes numerous physical, psychological and mental benefits, and it is in accordance with sharee?ah in some ways, and goes against it in others. Among the ways in which it is in accordance with Islam are:

The concealing garments which cover all the ?awrah completely. The rules of this sport require wearing covering garments composed of a shirt of thick white cotton, and trousers made of the same material, which have to be wide to allow movement of the legs and feet.

 Combatants are forbidden to direct blows that will cause harm to their opponents. The rules of the game dictate that attacks must be restrained, and must not cause harm to one's opponent, unlike the rules of boxing, for example.

 But on the other hand this sport is not free of things that go against sharee?ah, such as allowing blows to the face.

 In addition, it includes some religious rituals that are derived from local Indian religions, such as the exchange of greetings between the combatants, which take the form of bows that are similar to rukoo? (the Muslim does not bow to anyone except Allaah), and the exercises such as keeping silent and focusing or meditating, which are derived from the religious rituals of Buddhism, etc. All of these are totally rejected by Islam.

 But it is not forbidden to practise this sport once these issues have been eliminated. It is possible to eliminate them on an unofficial level, even if it is not possible to do so on an official and international level.  It is not essential to learn these skills at the level of championships and clubs which adhere to these matters and view them as an essential part of the sport which everyone who practises it must adhere to.

From Qadaayaa al-Lahw wa?l-Tarfeeh, p. 369 (www.islam-qa.com)

so in the end, there is no justificATION.
it just becomes a matter of knowing or not knowing what is or isnt allowed for the muslim to do.

and the muslim should always ask if he/she doesnt know, and not just do something of the cuff, expecting that they wont be accountable for it.

and unlike the other 2, Islam doesnt change to suit the needs/passions/whims/desires/times/etc..., rather they change (as evident by what the answerer said in reference to leaving certain religious aspects to the side) to suit IT.

>This brings me to the big 3 (Judaism, Chrisitianity, Islam).
> In many cases one can simply focus on learning the
>"techniques" and not the rituals or philosophies that go
>along with it.

Response: If the rituals and philosophies cannot be sepeparated then a Christian should avoid these disciplines. Tao is a completely different world view than that of Christianity. The two are complete opposites.


However, in arts gaining much popularity in
>the West such as t'ai chi and capoeira, this is not
>possible. In t'ai chi, the accompanying religion/philosophy
>is Taoism. How do the big 3 see/understand concepts of
>"chi" and "ying-yang"? These concepts clearly cannot be
>understood by the big 3, "ying-yang" especially, because it
>nullifies the existence of "God vs. Devil." In capoeira,
>_EVERYTHING_ (let me say this again) _EVERYTHING_ is tied to
>an orisha; the instruments, music, movements, rituals,
>_EVERYTHING_! Capoeira and Candomble are sisters with the
>same Afrikan parents. In fact capoeira is a religion within
>itself. *My favorite quote from an angolero: "Church?! I
>don't need church! I got capoeira!"

Response: we see pantheism as a teaching totally contridictory than what scripture teaches. We do not see God as all and all is God. God is sovergn and reigns over everything including evil.
>
>Knowing what was previously stated, how does a practitioner
>of one of the big three JUSTIFY practicing and studying one
>of the aforementioned as they go against their own
>teachings?

Response: i don't think that you can. unless you can seperate the theology from the actual martial art itself.

------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

However, in arts gaining much popularity in
>the West such as t'ai chi and capoeira, this is not
>possible. In t'ai chi, the accompanying religion/philosophy
>is Taoism. How do the big 3 see/understand concepts of
>"chi" and "ying-yang"?

Well a Christian may understand these two concepts. But what a Christian can't do is agree that the Energy of Chi or the balance of Ying-yang exists. By stating that only movements of T'ai Chi can be learned or studied by anyone that claims Christianity. I would deem a Christian T'ai chi practicer similar to Atheists that attend a Lutheran School.



These concepts clearly cannot be
>understood by the big 3, "ying-yang" especially, because it
>nullifies the existence of "God vs. Devil."

Well once again understanding the concept may be attainable.
Just like someone who's a non-believer to the Big 3 may understand concepts within them, even tho they don't believe it to be true. Believing it to be true is the line of demarcation that separates Christian vs. Taoist. Solarus I'm pretty sure you understand that you can't be Christian and practice Tao at the same time. (Hence the post) But if you do the movements only religous aspect may be separated.


In capoeira,
>_EVERYTHING_ (let me say this again) _EVERYTHING_ is tied to
>an orisha; the instruments, music, movements, rituals,
>_EVERYTHING_! Capoeira and Candomble are sisters with the
>same Afrikan parents. In fact capoeira is a religion within
>itself. *My favorite quote from an angolero: "Church?! I
>don't need church! I got capoeira!"

If there's no way to separate it ...then it's a no can do.


>Knowing what was previously stated, how does a practitioner
>of one of the big three JUSTIFY practicing and studying one
>of the aforementioned as they go against their own
>teachings?

Some i've heard were for exercise (Yoga). Most common Self-defense. We would probably agree that a Christian Practicer would not be as emmersed in these arts as someone who believes it with all of their heart.

abduhu, osoclasi, and Jennyfer. I was hoping all three of you specifically would respond.

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

no problem any time i can help

------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

All hope is not lost. For religion-friendly martial arts, here's a few that are independent of needing to be whitewashed and stripped down of its original intent:


Boxing- although its a sport its origins lie in self-defense, if you study boxing make sure your teacher knows your intent for it so you don't waste time learning boxing rule gibberish.

Olympic wrestling- same as boxing and again make sure your teacher knows you reasons for studying it.

American Kickboxing- Pretty much extraction from most Asian martial arts for aerobic and self-defense usage.

Savate- French kickboxing art that was developed in 1830s supposedly by French sailors. However i must say that man of the modern savate practitioners have STOLEN for asian systems (and afrikan for that matter) and called it savate. One idiot devil cat tried to say it was the origins of capoeira but that is rubbish. He was a capoeirista who was French so he tried the old "yt-take-credit-for-shit-he-didn't-do" routine.

Krav Maga- Self-defense system developed specifically for the Israeli military. Pretty much extractions and combinations of stuff from other systems, but oh well.

Muslim stuff- I don't know of any systems specifically CREATED by Muslims but there are plenty of systems practiced by peoples who BECAME muslims. And I'm not talking about some fake-me-out karate either. Stickfighting styles are well-known throughout Afrika and Arabia. There is kayti stidckfighting in Kenya. Swordplay would also be something to look out for amongst arabs. I don't know of any open-hand stuff other some sort of grappling/wrestling system which is also pretty common. Knifefighting, too.

In general the best route to go for religious-friendly stuff is to look for modern and traditional MILITARY combat systems as they tend to not focus on the "other stuff" as much (but definitely not all of the time.

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

for Muslims, Jews, and Christians that have been there since biblical times?

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

so how is it against their religion to practice these?
I can think of three cats of the top of my head that are christian and martial atrists

I gotta born again lust for
the neon funk-elp

I could walk up to the
president and blow smoke in
his stupid monkey face, and
he'd have to sit there
grooving on it-Homer Simpson

When God created human
beings/bet he didnt think of
bombs and things-Pharrel
Williams

ya know you cant resist-
http://iowahiphop.com/

It's not for you...it's for
me. I like to masterbate in
a closed room while people
are waiting for pie to cool.

The same motion that
moves the hips,
has the same effect of
dominoes when tipped
-vast aire

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

shit...
I remember one knew plenty of shit...said he used to spar with the NOI, showed me some southern angolan? moves, said it was the opposite of capperioa (sp) and the other two I believe, and Im not quite sure, capperioa and I wanna say eagle claw maybe, or akido

I gotta born again lust for
the neon funk-elp

I could walk up to the
president and blow smoke in
his stupid monkey face, and
he'd have to sit there
grooving on it-Homer Simpson

When God created human
beings/bet he didnt think of
bombs and things-Pharrel
Williams

ya know you cant resist-
http://iowahiphop.com/

It's not for you...it's for
me. I like to masterbate in
a closed room while people
are waiting for pie to cool.

The same motion that
moves the hips,
has the same effect of
dominoes when tipped
-vast aire

Did you read my initial post, thoroughly? If not here it is again:

"In capoeira, _EVERYTHING_ (let me say this again)_EVERYTHING_ is tied to an orisha; the instruments, music, movements, rituals, _EVERYTHING_! Capoeira and Candomble are sisters with the same Afrikan parents. In fact capoeira is a religion within itself. *My favorite quote from an angolero: "Church?! I don't need church! I got capoeira!" "


Capoeira is strengthen by the orishas and the Earth. Shango, Oshun, Yemaya, Ogun, etc. are ALL revered by capoeira. Let alone the ancestors. It's completely haram!

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

I dont know if they are that deep into it, but I doubt it, I think they do it because its of very high interest to them,
but do you know of any books, links, that might expand a little more on capoeira

I gotta born again lust for
the neon funk-elp

I could walk up to the
president and blow smoke in
his stupid monkey face, and
he'd have to sit there
grooving on it-Homer Simpson

When God created human
beings/bet he didnt think of
bombs and things-Pharrel
Williams

ya know you cant resist-
http://iowahiphop.com/

It's not for you...it's for
me. I like to masterbate in
a closed room while people
are waiting for pie to cool.

The same motion that
moves the hips,
has the same effect of
dominoes when tipped
-vast aire

>(yes another religion post)
>
>Most combative systems (martial arts) or at least the
>traditional Afrikan or Asian systems are tied to some
>religion or religious component of the particular people.
>Because of typical American/European WHITEWASHING, many
>systems (particularly Asian) the "religious" component is
>often watered down or taken out completely, as one can see
>in the "McDojos" of karate and also taekwondo schools.
>However, the fact remains in many of the systems has
>specific religious/spiritual philosophies entrenched in the
>system.
>
>This brings me to the big 3 (Judaism, Chrisitianity, Islam).
> In many cases one can simply focus on learning the
>"techniques" and not the rituals or philosophies that go
>along with it. However, in arts gaining much popularity in
>the West such as t'ai chi and capoeira, this is not
>possible. In t'ai chi, the accompanying religion/philosophy
>is Taoism. How do the big 3 see/understand concepts of
>"chi" and "ying-yang"? These concepts clearly cannot be
>understood by the big 3, "ying-yang" especially, because it
>nullifies the existence of "God vs. Devil." In capoeira,
>_EVERYTHING_ (let me say this again) _EVERYTHING_ is tied to
>an orisha; the instruments, music, movements, rituals,
>_EVERYTHING_! Capoeira and Candomble are sisters with the
>same Afrikan parents. In fact capoeira is a religion within
>itself. *My favorite quote from an angolero: "Church?! I
>don't need church! I got capoeira!"
>
>Knowing what was previously stated, how does a practitioner
>of one of the big three JUSTIFY practicing and studying one
>of the aforementioned as they go against their own
>teachings?


It depends on what is taught. People like to think that they know about Islam, but they know about the Islam of the outward, Islam also deals with the INWARD. There are principles of many ways of life that co-incide with Islam. The reality is that there are persons who are capoiera experts who are muslim. The reality is that there are no deits, only Allah, and if the muslim knower of capoiera rejects the ideals in capoiera, then he has created his own style which is for the best.

And this is some background info on it:

http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/ug/jhr3.html




"Let's get this clear right now...I'm poor. I'm lonely. I'm a revolutionary without a revolution. And I'm four months behind on a car payment." Professor Griff

" If we can't learn to live together despite the turmoil of past generations we are doomed." -Stern

"And where today is the stable community that would sustain such a couple, where one can be both poor and diginified and raise one's children with decency and hope... If the answer is education, does our society adequateley provide that tool of self-improvement to the less well off?"-- Sidney Poitier

" I'm not mad 'cus I'm losing! I'm mad 'cus I don't know how to win!" --Kevin Curtis Daniels Jr.

"And herein lies the tragedy of the age: not that men are poor,-all men know something of poverty; not that men are wicked,-who is good? Not that men are ignorant, -what is Truth? Nay, but that men know so little of men."
W.E.B. Dubois

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

i personally study yoga, my yoga instructer told me that i can worhship whomever i want when im practicing yoga. im a christian and ive found that the eastern teachings of the spirit and becoming one with a higher being are very compatible with christianity. its actually quite amazing! i encourage everyone to give it a try.

:)

_________________________
Life is but a dream,
Drifting on a stream, a stream,
Consciously it seems,
All of what remains,
Ego Brain,
And they shame,
Shame, love after it rains,
You see my pain is real,
Watch my world dissolve,
And pretend tha

well im glad that not everyone believes in moral relativism!!!