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Federisco
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Sat Mar-08-03 04:00 AM

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"migration as a clear looking glass"


  

          

I've been wondering.. read this:

"The reason why the wealthy countries are doing their never too weary struggle is because they won't let go of what they have scratched with their claws and fought with their armies to get their hands on. They won't let 'the others' run their own course, independent from the interests of The West, because that would mean the end of those very same interests. That is why the big immigration question - or, to view it from a different angle: the migration phenomenon - may be more important than it looks like. It is an unusually clear example of the time we live in, the situation we find ourselves in. And it may well be that through this clear example lies the possibility of finding something else clear, a solution or a medicine that is shaped by this example's clarity."

..i've been writing this paragraph over and over again, to make it the way i try to see all this. Is i true? Does the migration perspective offer new insight and a damn good way to see these things we see happening (and are a part of) today? To use the migration, how the west chooses to face it, and even more important: the story behind it, what has caused it, and the underlying nature of its cause, is that good? is it true that it is an unusually clear looking glass, with an angle we should use more often?

cause ive started to wonder... specially when it comes to the UN, its role. i dont know how to view the UN, i hear many conflicting statements, from different sides. the norwegian refugee council, where i got some of the inspiration from, shows for example total respect to the UN and how countries are to be subordinate to the pact. it's the foundation of their whole stance, basically.

(Im thinking about this more now than ever because now it is a part of my future.. i will be studying "Culture and Identity" in uni starting next autumn, and those studies bring you on a path towards multicultural understanding (a not nice example is: conflicts), immigration topics, ethnology, religion, migration and so on.)

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"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." — Marshall McLuhan

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
What issues are brought to bear with immigration?
Mar 08th 2003
1
my man fire
Mar 09th 2003
2
      yup...
Mar 09th 2003
4
           yep.. im feeling what youre saying the same
Mar 10th 2003
6
           the return of the yep...
Mar 10th 2003
7
                Reply coming tomorrow...got caught up in
Mar 10th 2003
8
                RE: the return of the yep...
Mar 11th 2003
9
                     understand
Mar 12th 2003
11
Manu Chao on migration
Mar 09th 2003
3
wow. n/m
Mar 09th 2003
5
immigration basics
Mar 11th 2003
10
from the Associazione Ya Basta!
Mar 13th 2003
12
idealism...but instead, suppose we embraced
Mar 14th 2003
13
      it does...
Mar 15th 2003
14

FireBrand
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Sat Mar-08-03 05:42 PM

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1. "What issues are brought to bear with immigration?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

The same issues that faced refugees in their home countries? Issues brought on by colonization, and the weakening of a societal structure?

If that is where you are going...I feel you. The thing of it is-how can another country, even a superpower possibly support this new influx?

Especially while they (Countries/states) are undergoing financial stress. Does this add to the dilema in the Gulf, and in Central Asia? I mean...raw materials are often renewable, but not readily available without maturation.

----------------------
Avatar? Nea onnim sua a, ohu; nea odwen se onim dodo no, se ogyae sua a, ketewa no koraa a onim no firi ne nsa.
_______________________

The Love of my life: (Future Mrs. FireBrand)
http://members.tripod.com/~samblondie/sampage2.htm

Refreshing Lyrics:
http://www.ohhla.com/anonymous/nas/gods_son/i_can.nas.txt

"Everywhere is war- m'say war" -- Bob Marley

www.jru.org.jm
Gone clear...Jamaican Rugby nah ras. Mo' Fiya!


"Be intent on action, not on the fruits of action; avoid attraction to the fruits and attachment to inaction! Perform action, firm in discipline, relinquishing attachment; be impartial to failure and sucess - this equanimity is called discipling. Wise men disciplined by understanding relinquish the fruit born of action; freed from these bonds of rebirth, they reach a place beyond decay." --Teachings of Krishna

"...If it were not for them in my life I might have not realized just how dangerous Western culture is for thinking Afrikans and would have gone on to become another empty, wasted intellectualizer." --Larry D. Crawford (Mwalimu A. Bomani Baruti)

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

  

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Federisco
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Sun Mar-09-03 02:14 AM

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2. "my man fire"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

>What issues are brought to bear with immigration?
>The same issues that faced refugees in their home countries?
> Issues brought on by colonization, and the weakening of a
>societal structure?

The reason behind the increasing migration to developed countries is because of an unequal distribution of wealth, power and opportunities (to some extent) in the world. Though, although many believe that the opposite of this unequality is total equality, that is not what i am trying to say. What i am thinking about is this: The underlying reason behind migration to the developed world touches the very root of this unequality, because of how it is a product of this supernatural creation of power, this unequal distribution of rights and control. This root is a tender point because it is the foundation on which the power of the western world is built.

Abit Fanon-ish, perhaps. People of the undeveloped world, the people of the oppressed and exploited world, threaten the developed world just by showing up. Just by showing they exist, and no more through the camera of a CNN team, no, now they can suddenly appear outside your doorstep! Just by wanting to take a part in the developed world in order to make a better future, sometimes simply in order to survive (refugees), they threaten the very foundation of the developed world. By touching this tender point, the foundation.

That is what i mean with migration being a clear example. Often this direct confrontation between the developed world and the undeveloped world is purposely hidden, because it shows the truth too clearly. But they cannot completely stop migration, the UN human rights pact and the "international community" have agreed to be humane at least to some extent when it comes to migration, first of all refugees.

They try though.. Through the Schenden deal in europe, aka Festning Europa (Fort Europe)... And of all these european countries the majority of them is only closing their borders more and more. In some countries (i think Germany for example) the new immigration laws contradicts the constitution itself. The UN safety council's anti-terror convention (not sure about the name or whether it has been introduced) is so vague that it can actually be used against the human rights, specially when used against immigrants and refugees. Spain has made the fight against terrorism the same as the struggle to stop immigration from North Africa (one year, while i was living in spain, spain spent more money on high-tech equipment to stop immigrants.. chopters, infrared cameras along the coast, high speed patrol boats, fences.. than the entire military budget). Greece has made a border security deal with Turkey, with a special focus on stopping illegal afghan immigrants. Great Britain has created a new anti-terror, law punishment and security law that has brought with it stricter border control and more limitations for immigrants and refugees. Italy's prime minister Berluscini(sp) has several times confused the terms "illegal immigrants" and "islamic terrorists", and have stated that "The western countries' respect for the human rights characterizes a sivilization supreme to the islamic." Norway was this close -><- to changing their Foreigner Law so that it would contradict its own constitution. In other words, that it was ok to ignore the human rights as long as you do it in the name of the fight against terrorism.

The immigration politics of the developing world is often more about protecting themselves against refugees and asylum seekers than it is about giving protection to people on the run.

This, while "Studies of conflicts in Africa show that there is a far greater possibility for break-out of conflict in a country where exports of oil, minerals or other raw materials make up a large share of the economy than in countries with little export of raw materials." (- Norwegian Refugee Council)



>The thing of
>it is-how can another country, even a superpower possibly
>support this new influx?

Yep, it won't because that would mean the break down of its power and wealth....
It goes against its nature. But that is why i see it as an important truth.

"The majority of refugees worldwide can be found in undeveloped countries. The rich countries dont accept them to the same extent.. not even close to the same extent as poorer countries, who in many cases more or less have completely open borders." (paraphrasing the norwegian refugee council)

>Especially while they (Countries/states) are undergoing
>financial stress. Does this add to the dilema in the Gulf,
>and in Central Asia?

You mean more immigrants means more bad economy, and that adds to the "need" of war in the middle east? Hmmh it is interesting, didnt think about it in that way. I know too little to say anything about it...what do you have on your mind?

>I mean...raw materials are often
>renewable, but not readily available without maturation.

Sorry, dont understand this.. dont see where it links with migration affecting foreign politics. (Like it aint complicated enough already!)

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"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." — Marshall McLuhan

  

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FireBrand
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Sun Mar-09-03 06:48 AM

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4. "yup..."
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

I feel you. We are seeing the same thing here. European countries are dominating the world by using evolved imperial tactics...and now they want to close their borders to FURTHER protect their interests. I understand this. It's a logical progression- of course they want to protect what they have. But, it isn't right, and in the end we will see that we have created terrorist states. States that are weakened by imperial dominance like Afghanistan. States that harbor a motley crue of refugee ethnicities that have no where else to run to. How do you make any animal (including humans) dangerous? Limit it's options, corner it- eliminate hope.


>This, while "Studies of conflicts in Africa show that there
>is a far greater possibility for break-out of conflict in a
>country where exports of oil, minerals or other raw
>materials make up a large share of the economy than in
>countries with little export of raw materials." (- Norwegian
>Refugee Council)
>

Of course...especially when the goods and resources are not being recycled back into the people or communities of that land. When you have DeBeers, and other European/Asian/Arab countries in Afrika that own the diamond mines, the oil fields, the big farms, and other resources- what choice do you leave the people? They have to become scavengers. Lord knows that diamond mining isn't lucrative for the workers.

>
>>The thing of
>>it is-how can another country, even a superpower possibly
>>support this new influx?
>
>Yep, it won't because that would mean the break down of its
>power and wealth....
>It goes against its nature. But that is why i see it as an
>important truth.
>
Agreed.

>"The majority of refugees worldwide can be found in
>undeveloped countries. The rich countries dont accept them
>to the same extent.. not even close to the same extent as
>poorer countries, who in many cases more or less have
>completely open borders." (paraphrasing the norwegian
>refugee council)
>
>>Especially while they (Countries/states) are undergoing
>>financial stress. Does this add to the dilema in the Gulf,
>>and in Central Asia?
>
>You mean more immigrants means more bad economy, and that
>adds to the "need" of war in the middle east? Hmmh it is
>interesting, didnt think about it in that way. I know too
>little to say anything about it...what do you have on your
>mind?

European countries like the U.S. don't want to help these peoples because they realize that among other things it means that our infrastructure and raw material needs will become greater. If a Russian doctor (or Indian computer programmer, or whatever) comes over- he can contribute and become a valueable CONSUMER, but if a Haitian, or Columbian, or someone from a country ravaged by imperialism and has limited skills comes over- they become dependant upon the system until they can stand on their own two feet. Taxpayers here don't want that.

>
>>I mean...raw materials are often
>>renewable, but not readily available without maturation.
>
>Sorry, dont understand this.. dont see where it links with
>migration affecting foreign politics. (Like it aint
>complicated enough already!)

This was referring to countries that have raw materials like Lumber, oil, and such the like, and are being exploited. They won't get a chance to bounce back because the parental generation will have limited resources to work with. Which means as the kids come up they won't know what they have- and then the cycle of degradatin, and imperial raping can start again.
----------------------
Avatar? Nea onnim sua a, ohu; nea odwen se onim dodo no, se ogyae sua a, ketewa no koraa a onim no firi ne nsa.
_______________________

The Love of my life: (Future Mrs. FireBrand)
http://members.tripod.com/~samblondie/sampage2.htm

Refreshing Lyrics:
http://www.ohhla.com/anonymous/nas/gods_son/i_can.nas.txt

"Everywhere is war- m'say war" -- Bob Marley

www.jru.org.jm
Gone clear...Jamaican Rugby nah ras. Mo' Fiya!


"Be intent on action, not on the fruits of action; avoid attraction to the fruits and attachment to inaction! Perform action, firm in discipline, relinquishing attachment; be impartial to failure and sucess - this equanimity is called discipling. Wise men disciplined by understanding relinquish the fruit born of action; freed from these bonds of rebirth, they reach a place beyond decay." --Teachings of Krishna

"...If it were not for them in my life I might have not realized just how dangerous Western culture is for thinking Afrikans and would have gone on to become another empty, wasted intellectualizer." --Larry D. Crawford (Mwalimu A. Bomani Baruti)

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

  

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Federisco
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Mon Mar-10-03 05:15 AM

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6. "yep.. im feeling what youre saying the same"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

I reread this paragraph i was writing in the first post.. and it made me think about it. Stating what i said there is more about saying something clever than it is about really finding the solution. The euro-academic syndrome... (heh, you reading, utamaroho?)

Look at the zapatistas, they have their life at stake when it comes to what they write about. Nothing matters more to them, and when it is like that, what they write will, just by nature's way, become much more true. It's the magical ingredient, and they write towards the solution more than any other reason.

so.. that's where we are, we don't live this to the bone, what we are is that we are involved. That's where we're standing.. generally. Ima try to take it further, but that's not all easy. You got to go some new ways. (But we're really getting there.)


>I feel you. We are seeing the same thing here. European
>countries are dominating the world by using evolved imperial
>tactics...and now they want to close their borders to
>FURTHER protect their interests. I understand this. It's
>a logical progression- of course they want to protect what
>they have. But, it isn't right,

Yep. If it would be right, we'd have to go back to where we belong, to our naturally designated seat. And sit down.

>and in the end we will see
>that we have created terrorist states.

We've stayed the same terrorists states, as well.. and expanded the culture that carries this terrorism by nature more.

>States that are
>weakened by imperial dominance like Afghanistan. States
>that harbor a motley crue of refugee ethnicities that have
>no where else to run to. How do you make any animal
>(including humans) dangerous? Limit it's options, corner
>it- eliminate hope.

You are right, i can see that as well now.

Have to go catch a bus home. When i'm home i'll write more.. in one hour or more. I got it all written down on notes. "I'll be back.."

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"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." — Marshall McLuhan

  

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Federisco
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Mon Mar-10-03 12:50 PM

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7. "the return of the yep..."
In response to Reply # 4
Mon Mar-10-03 01:30 PM

  

          

>European countries like the U.S. don't want to help these
>peoples because they realize that among other things it
>means that our infrastructure and raw material needs will
>become greater. If a Russian doctor (or Indian computer
>programmer, or whatever) comes over- he can contribute and
>become a valueable CONSUMER, but if a Haitian, or Columbian,
>or someone from a country ravaged by imperialism and has
>limited skills comes over- they become dependant upon the
>system until they can stand on their own two feet.
>Taxpayers here don't want that.

True. If things were more just, the European countries would admit that the limited skills of 'the others' (as well as other "gifts" you are given when growing up in a country ravaged by imperialism) was a result from their unfair politics. Within the realm of these people wanting to live in the western world, that is. (I say that to try not to be talking about westernization, because that would be going backwards.) A just solution would either be:

A. Let them come, study, work, get the help they would need as a way of apologizing (anything else would be unfair), and: encourage and help these people to bring this economic wealth back to their country. (Not encouraging or implying the adoption of mentality and culture.)

B. Help their country reach a standard of ok peacefulnes, help increase living standards, perhaps help solve internal conflicts etc. (A problem with this option is how it basically involves letting go of things that capitalism loves, such as oppression, exploitation and the exhibition of "superpowers", in order for the intended goals to be honestly, justly and effectively met.)

In Columbia, if USA would just stop having a hand in the civil war it could be a noticable improvement. Same goes for Bolivia and its wrongly elected american puppet president causing unrest (20-30 got killed in one day in the city that suddenly didn't fit its name anymore.. La Paz), and the list should go on..

C. The transcending option.
what do you think it would be?
I am thinking about it.. but it helps to hear others' thoughts

>This was referring to countries that have raw materials like
>Lumber, oil, and such the like, and are being exploited.
>They won't get a chance to bounce back because the parental
>generation will have limited resources to work with. Which
>means as the kids come up they won't know what they have-
>and then the cycle of degradatin, and imperial raping can
>start again.

I see you when it comes to this also. The cycle of degradation.. I can understand it is true, and that what causes it is the exploitation. This cycle starts over again with each child becoming a parent, no? That is what you mean?

Just from reading this it is easy to understand how that shapes the mind of the exploited. But how is it when it comes to the cycle of degradation for those who migrate from an exploited and oppressed society into the developed countries, seeking something better? Is it still as basic and general as you describe?

In Fanons book it was simple, he had the "native" and he had the "bourgeoisie". I dunno how it is in the reality of today. Because, today not only the bourgeoisie are trying to reach the European world. Some of the "natives" are migrating. Well, luckily most of the "natives" who migrate today don't try to reach the European world mentally. Most only go physically, with first of all -stability- in mind. But they are still the "natives" who have realized that fighting is unuseful, and instead try to travel as a way of reaching the solution. (Which is.. Stability, safety, balance.)

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"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." — Marshall McLuhan

  

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FireBrand
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145739 posts
Mon Mar-10-03 04:30 PM

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8. "Reply coming tomorrow...got caught up in"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

other convos...I'll get back on it around 5pm or so.


----------------------
Avatar? Nea onnim sua a, ohu; nea odwen se onim dodo no, se ogyae sua a, ketewa no koraa a onim no firi ne nsa.
_______________________

The Love of my life: (Future Mrs. FireBrand)
http://members.tripod.com/~samblondie/sampage2.htm

Refreshing Lyrics:
http://www.ohhla.com/anonymous/nas/gods_son/i_can.nas.txt

"Everywhere is war- m'say war" -- Bob Marley

www.jru.org.jm
Gone clear...Jamaican Rugby nah ras. Mo' Fiya!


"Be intent on action, not on the fruits of action; avoid attraction to the fruits and attachment to inaction! Perform action, firm in discipline, relinquishing attachment; be impartial to failure and sucess - this equanimity is called discipling. Wise men disciplined by understanding relinquish the fruit born of action; freed from these bonds of rebirth, they reach a place beyond decay." --Teachings of Krishna

"...If it were not for them in my life I might have not realized just how dangerous Western culture is for thinking Afrikans and would have gone on to become another empty, wasted intellectualizer." --Larry D. Crawford (Mwalimu A. Bomani Baruti)

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

  

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FireBrand
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Tue Mar-11-03 12:48 PM

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9. "RE: the return of the yep..."
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

You know what? I just don't know anymore. I've gotten to the point where I think that the only thing that is going to help is if it ALL goes to shit.

That way we can start over. I mean, my parents are immigrants- from nearby Jamaica, and to see what drives them (money) makes me sad.

They want "sucess" for my brothers and I, but their definition of sucess is monetary, and western based.

I think we just need to start over, because capitolism DEPENDS on abuse of SOMEONE. If any country REMAINS capitalist they will in time become a military power, and then...a bully.

You bring up some good points, but to be honest I'm tired, and I don't think I'm at the point yet where I can sit down and find solutions.

Right now, I'ma sit down with my Crawford, Wilson, Y Ching, Bible, Bhagavad Gita, and Thoreau and try to learn.

I'll leave the figuring out for another time. A better time.

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

  

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Federisco
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Wed Mar-12-03 10:20 PM

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11. "understand"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

Im being very enthusiastic on this.. The input you had was very good to read, such replies always open up the perspective.

Reading and learning. Peace

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"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." — Marshall McLuhan

  

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Federisco
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Sun Mar-09-03 03:17 AM

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3. "Manu Chao on migration"
In response to Reply # 0
Sun Mar-09-03 03:46 AM

  

          

http://www.hosting-media.com/fr/virgin/manuchao/video/smilrtsp/clandestino-v1-high.ram

These quotes are from between 0:36 and 2:50 in the mini-documentary above (made by himself, about migration in north africa.. recorded in ceuta, a small area of spanish territory in morocco, right across gibraltar).

"We have come from africa. But we know that we will go to america. We have come (alive? a long way?)."

en español:
"Calamocarro es cómo un ghetto para los emigrantes, está en ceuta, y ahi llega gente de todo el africa, y espera y espera y espera... para papeles, para cualquier manera de entrar en la mítica europa. A por trabajo y alguno soluciónes para sus familias. Es un lugar de espera, la gente esperan en meses y meses."

english:
"Calamocarro is like a ghetto for the immigrants, here in Ceuta. People from all over africa arrive here, and wait and wait and wait.. for papers, for any possible way to enter the mythical europe. For work and for some possible solution for their families. This is a place of waiting, the people are waiting month after month."

español:
"Ahi se tapa(?) la migración, la gente no puede pasar. Y cuando se tapa(?) las migraciones, nunca es algo bueno. Porque las migraciones es cómo un rio, no. Y si el rio se tapa, el agua se pudre."

english:
"Here we have the stopping of migration, where the people cannot pass. And when migratory flow is dammed up, it is never good. Because the migrationers are like a river, no. And if the river is dammed up, it will rot (undergo putrefaction)."

░▒▓█▌¹♥▐█▓▒░

proud okayphotographer: http://www.okayplayer.com/okayphotographers/

"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." — Marshall McLuhan

  

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FireBrand
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145739 posts
Sun Mar-09-03 06:49 AM

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5. "wow. n/m"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

----------------------
Avatar? Nea onnim sua a, ohu; nea odwen se onim dodo no, se ogyae sua a, ketewa no koraa a onim no firi ne nsa.
_______________________

The Love of my life: (Future Mrs. FireBrand)
http://members.tripod.com/~samblondie/sampage2.htm

Refreshing Lyrics:
http://www.ohhla.com/anonymous/nas/gods_son/i_can.nas.txt

"Everywhere is war- m'say war" -- Bob Marley

www.jru.org.jm
Gone clear...Jamaican Rugby nah ras. Mo' Fiya!


"Be intent on action, not on the fruits of action; avoid attraction to the fruits and attachment to inaction! Perform action, firm in discipline, relinquishing attachment; be impartial to failure and sucess - this equanimity is called discipling. Wise men disciplined by understanding relinquish the fruit born of action; freed from these bonds of rebirth, they reach a place beyond decay." --Teachings of Krishna

"...If it were not for them in my life I might have not realized just how dangerous Western culture is for thinking Afrikans and would have gone on to become another empty, wasted intellectualizer." --Larry D. Crawford (Mwalimu A. Bomani Baruti)

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

  

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malang
Member since Oct 18th 2002
7081 posts
Tue Mar-11-03 01:05 PM

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10. "immigration basics"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

there is some good stuff in this thread....

here is something i posted a while back....

---------------------------------------------------------------------
a basic analysis of immigration....

WHY people come to the US and Western Europe:

TO ESCAPE DEVESTATED LANDS
The history of colonialism is of looting the indigenous peoples of the world of their wealth, resources, culture, social order, and most importantly dignity.

Colonialism robbed the peoples and their lands and shipped the goods, materials and wealth to the west, and laid the foundation of Western economies.

Colonialism robbed the people of their resources that would have been currently producing wealth for them (gold, silver, cloth, diamonds). It also left the control in the hands of many of their crony capitalists/companies who still run their business that they inherited through the gun (DeBeers diamonds in S.Africa).

Colonialism destroyed many indigenous arts/crafts/wildlife/plants/crops/skills/economies that existed in those lands. the lost wax process, making of muslin cloth, loss of indigenous crops to produce sugar for the "queen", etc etc.

the destruction of exisiting social and ruling orders (which by no means were perfect, many were even bad, but they developed across a natural process of social growth) and replacement by those that suited the needs of the colonizers.

TWO PRIME ASPECTS OF THIS:
ONE: introduction (and some cases promotion) of tribalism pitting existing indigenous groups against one another to better control them and their resources (TEH CASE OF RWANDA , the Tutsis and Hutu, two previously co-exisiting and symbiotic tribes exisiting in peace, being turned against each other beacause one was favored by the colonizers for having lighter skin and being taller and thus preferrred as the mid-level ruling class). There is also the creation of artifical histories (the exploitation of indian history by british writers plays a humungous role in the communalization of india, of creation of india and pakistan and the existing tensions)....and the creation of artifical borders...especially in africa, south asia and middle east.....DIVIDE AND CONQUER

TWO: Creation of middle ruling class who are the bastards of this earth in those lands now...these are the (feudal) landowners, beuracracy, uncle-tom families who became and continue to be rich of the blood of the people, armies hostile to their own people, ect etc.....this continues in modern day interference by the western powers in affairs of other countries (supporting saddam, pinochet, the shah of iran, mobutu, etc etc) all of whom happen to be western lackeys and willing to lay their country

Then there is robbery human labor (slavery) which did and continues to benefit the west. the dislocation of people form their lands because of the resources the land held. destruction of local economies, food supplies, living standards....(in india, famines came cuz the people were too busy being forced to work for the british to tend to their own lands....the average life expectancy in india dropped by 12 to 15 years beacuase of colonialism, ect etc)...Britain's economy grew twenty folds due to the plunder of resources of india....so did their living standards.....

MIND YOU....all the armies and forces and "companies" that the colonizers and imperialists sent across the world did NOT NEED ANY VISAS OR GREEN CARDS to do what they want....MUCH LIKE MODERN DAY COMPANIES AND MAJOR CORPORATION DO NOT NEED THEM BECAUSE THE IMF AND WORLD BANK STIPULATE THAT "free trade" and "privatization" and "opening up the economy" is a prerequisite for receiving aid....

PART TWO

WHY people come to US and Western Europe:

TO RECLAIM THE LOST WEALTH/LIFE/OPPORTUNITIES
my father came here to make money for his family and relatives back home....many of the "Third Wporld" economies run solely on the basis of foreign remittances sent back to families from the US, Western Europe, and to some extent the Middle East....

people come beacause there are no opportunities in their own lands...beacause the ruling classes (created by colonials) dont care for the people.....

people come to escape persecution faced in their lands because A GOOD AMOUNT OF CONFLICTS were artifically created by the colonizers hindu vs muslim, tutsi vs hutu, yoruba vs hausa, coloreds vs blacks, mestizo vs black or indian, ect etc...then many economies are also subsurvient to these conflicts (india vs pakistan, iran vs iraq, eritrea vs ethiopia, rwanda)

NOW....

WHY THE US IN PARTICULAR EXPLOITS IMMIGRATION (legal and illegal) for its own needs

1. LEGAL IMMIGRATION
is only offered to professionals and the educated of the "third world" furthering the problem of development and creating a brain drain.....docters, engineers, computer specialists.....

2. ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION
if the US wanted to control illegal immgrants it could easily do so...anyone who doesnt think so is a fool....however oit chooses not to because it knows illegal immigrants form a strong foundation for the US economy....

- illegal immigrants do substandard jobs for substandard pay and substandard conditions for ridiculous workhours......working on agricultural and dairy farms, meat factories, sweatshops, gas stations, cabs, etc etc...

- illegal immigrants have no workers rights and THUS BECOME EASSILY EXPLOTABLE LABOR....if they choose to organize or demand for rights, the INS is called for a raid (WHICH THEY DO DO VERY WELL especially at farms and sweatshops and factories)....throw the troublemaking group of workers out and replace them with more easily-obtained illegal immigrants.....no benefits, no decent pay, no decent working conditions, no space to voice opinion, ect etc

- ALL the time that illegal-immigrant-labor is being explouted, it is also being used to screw over exisiting working/poor classes (poor whites, blacks, native americans)...they are told that they are lazy and look at these immigrnats and how hard they work...at the same time they are told LOOK THESE IMMIGRNTS are taking away your jobs...pitting indigenous underclass against the new underclass....divide and conquer.....

ADD TO THIS MIX the exploitation of both underclasses by the PRISON INDUSTRY....we already know money made off of jailing black latino and poor white people.....BUT THE fastest growing sector in the prison industry is in IMMIGRANT PRISONS....The CCA and Wackenhut being the biggest bastards.....CCA stock jumped 400% by Sept 13, 2001 in anticipation of the coming prisoners/detainees.......and then there is the labor from these prisons, who are paid ALMOST NOTHING to make your Eddie bauer clothes, victoria secrets, ect etc....

ish id phucked up aint it........

with this background....u see that the current hounding of arab/south asian/muslim immigrants isnt about just immigration.......

it is about race AND it is about money AND it is about hate

  

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Federisco
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Thu Mar-13-03 09:16 AM

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12. "from the Associazione Ya Basta!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

...read this! I am amazed by how much im amazed by in this document (from 2000). Written by The White Overalls, the large italian movement.. the brothers and sisters of the zapatistas. ("The most visible and acceptable face of European protest"..) Adopting the spirit of the zapatistas, to extend the struggle from within the beast. Here it goes:

SUPPOSE WE START TO BE PERSUADED THAT THE WOMEN AND MEN WHO ATTEMPT TO CROSS THE LONG BORDERS SPLITTING UP THE WORLD ARE NOT ALIENS BUT CITIZENS OF THE WORLD

migrants

1. The fourth world war has begun: this conflict is the cause of the new waves of migration. They are migrations typical of the new, post-Fordist age. The migrants, whether they are greeted as political or environmental refugees or, as happens with increasing frequency, as prisoners and/or unwelcome aliens, are the victims of what Marcos has described as the fourth world war, that of neo-liberism against humanity. From 1975-1995 the number of political refugees has risen from approximately 2 to 23-36 million. This is a figure that is leading to a tightening of European laws on the right of asylum: over the last four years the number of requests for asylum has dropped considerably. Yet, as the restrictions regarding requests for asylum become tighter the number of migrants continues to grow massively: today, they're estimated at about 120 million.. In most cases these migrants are attempting to move from the south of the world to the north. They are fleeing poverty and wars brought to them by the "developed" world. They are fleeing impoverishment caused by the murderous and genocidal policies of the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund which, largely by means of their Structural Changes, have starved the poorer people. In addition, all the free trade treaties, which have extended to agriculture over the past few years, are destroying local markets, causing more and more poverty, abandonment of the land and a desperate flight to the cities in search of a salary, which is hard to come by. The city, but even more the North, is a mirage - the only possibility for avoiding the poverty caused by the neoliberist empire. The flight from South Mexico towards the States is just one example. All
migrants are political refugees from the fourth world war and, as such, they should be welcomed.


The right to hospitality must be respected!
No distinction between migrants and refugees, goodies and baddies!
A welcome for all the victims of the IVth world war!

2. Neoliberism shows its true repressive face. There are no laws to welcome these migrants, we are told. New ones must be invented, argue the left-wing politicians. But the truth lies elsewhere: at the end of the millenium neoliberism is showing its true colours: human rights are only the rights of 'legal' citizens and can be acquired only by bloodshed or inheritance. Those who have the wrong skin colour do not have the same rights. Freedom of movement and domicile are permitted to capital and to goods, but not to all human beings. Our answer to inherited, blood rights is the right to the soil. Our answer to the free movement of goods and capital is the free movement of people. The new laws legitimizing expulsion camps throughout the Europe of Schengen and the funds for creating centres around the edges of the Schengen borders, bought and sold by means of bi-lateral agreements, show a serious trend towards a police state people are imprisoned without having committed any crime. People are imprisoned because they were born elsewhere and they want to come to the north. They end up in rison without even seeing a judge or a lawyer. Detention by the authorities is, in fact, a violation of art.3 of the Italian constitution: detention and the resulting arbitrary expulsion amount to deportation. These are the universal human rights that the West has been imposing on the world for 500 years now and which it now barbarically applies in its own home territory, against the very principles of its constitutions.


Stop expulsions!Immediate closure of the prison camps! Real equality of rights without racist discrimination! Revoke racist laws! Documents for everyone! A passport for all European nomads, the former victims of the Nazis! No quotas and no limits on migration!

3. The symbol of the fourth fourth world war is one enormous wall. Just as the symbol of the third world war was the Berlin wall, the symbol of this one is the enormous wall that starts at the Rio Grande and runs through to Turkey, passing Gibraltar and then north, leaving out Eastern Europe; it divides Australia and Japan from the rest of East Asia. This wall is an insult to humanity. Figures showing the victims along the American border come to over 1,300 from 1993 to 1998; in 1998 alone, the police shot at 89 people. The estimated number of victims along the borders of Schengen is between 2,000 and 3,000 and there is documentary proof of 1,365 between 1993 and 1998: drowned in the sea or in rivers, blown up by mines, their craft sunk by navies, shot by the police, hung on the other side of the borders in the bi-lateral prisons…In only five years, the American walls and those of Schengen have each caused 5 to 10 times the number of deaths caused by the Berlin wall in thirty years. The Schengen police force eans having a central records office, files on all new arrivals, an extension of the already inhuman criminal treatment to all migrant travellers, including children. The numbers of victims on entry are swollen by the victims of expulsion; these are crimes by the state, premeditated and using a variety of tactics (death by suffocation with a pillow or a blindfold, for example, or by anaesthetic, with the new Fascist doctors and nurses as accomplices). In the USA the Pentagon has provided bullet-proof vehicles, infra-red equipment and men, and the border police is integrated into the army. The Italian, Spanish and German states make the same sort of use of their armies.


Against borders, action along the borders!
Trials for State murders and those responsible for them!

4. A war waged by criminal and state powers. The criminalisation of foreigners adds to the power of organised crime. The strategy of criminalising foreign women and men - a strategy which the European states are following by means of their mass media and their unions - is extremely dangerous. Hospitality cannot be associated with safety, neither can every outsider be regarded as a potential criminal. The Europe of Schengen is extending police control along the borders, bringing in armies and
dispatching the navy to threaten and sink approaching ships; police control and police powers then spread from the borders inland, throughout the territory; all this is done by creating laws that turn our potential guests into clandestine immigrants, treating them like criminals. These are the laws of the Italian state that make every outsider clandestine: to have a stay permit, you must have a job and to get a job you must have a stay permit! The European police state is attempting to involve society in its general policing plan: more and more people are forced to ask people with different coloured skins for their documents, to demonstrate a legal status arbitrarily imposed by the state: at work, in hospitals, in public offices, in taxis…The German state has punished taxi drivers for having transported 'sans papiers'. The legal authorities advocate no tolerance and police repression has increased considerably in the last few months. The opening of the Corelli prison camp saw the beginning of evictions, arrests, insults, beatings, illicit confiscation of documents in Milan. The new police stop you and ask where you are from. For the state it is a crime to come from the south or east of the world. And all this is happening while the Italian mafia groups share out the business of human transport from Albania and the government refuses to provide the means for taking control of immigration away from the mafia - control that makes a profit from everything and everybody. This is how journeys to the borders, arrival and accommodation in Europe are managed by criminal organisations and the migrants become goods, in all senses.


Stop the mafia boats in the Otranto channel! No human being is illegal! We are all clandestine!


5. A race war. The only race that exists is the human race. The only important colour is the colour of your eyes. White people - said Fanon - invented the race of the non-whites. European policies against immigration are promoted by the neoliberist left wing, the heirs of European social democracy, which preached colonialism to give jobs to the working classes and labourers of Europe and to guide the world towards Progress. Race itself is economic dominion. The damned of the earth are the victims of this neoliberist plan. The fourth world war is the last war of Capital but it is also a racist war. It is based on western identity and lies about its civilising influence. In actual fact the foreign worker is the one most at risk. The criminalisation of foreign workers aims to limit their organisational potential against the concentration of capital. In any case, Capital itself derives from theft and plundering in the south of the world and the poorer lands and from exploitation in the mines and in the fields. Today the arrival of a new labour force is convenient for industrialists because it is of use in the social and industrial organisation of work in post-Fordist terms. The main role of this labour force is as temporary workers in important economic sectors through
outsourcing to co-operatives and others, servile positions, especially as home cleaners, sexual services which in great demand in a society filled with sexual phobias. We mean to counter the race war, a safety valve for class conflict, by means of social conflict which attacks profits and their unjust distribution, redistributing riches and creating a sense of community. Our answer to the war amongst the poor is the fight for dignity and against the impoverishment of the world.
Let's unite the struggles of immigrants and those of temporary workers!

Universal citizen's income (housing, food, transport, income)!


6.A financial war. Before the first world war, passports did not exist. Between the first and the second world war, America started to control immigration. Again, during the third world war, there were greater obstacles to the movement of capital as opposed to those limiting the movement of people, than there are today. Neoliberism preaches free markets but closes and controls the labour market by means of its armies.

The relationship between human beings and goods has been turned upside down: goods move freely, electronic dollars too, but people are stopped! The markets are free but the labour market is controlled by the armies of all the rich nations: neoliberism does not allow free trade on the labour market - it must have control! Nonsense has been made into common-sense by means of force and propaganda by the mass media. The developed countries go on announcing recipes for development, grants and little discounts on debts but refuse to open their borders; moreover they explode financial bubbles every year in a different country. And yet multi-ethnic society is destined to take over. This is a fact. Arms are useless against armed reason.


For the multi-ethnic communities of the third millennium! Equal rights!
Freedom of movement and domicile!

7.A TV war. The control of people by means of armies and the persuasion of society to accept this Fascist point of view, where every white citizen has to keep an eye on the non-whites, depends on the ability of the owners of the mass media to spread lies. These terrorists spread fear, individualism and discouragement amongst people - by means of xenophobic campaigns that speak of the arrival of immigrants in terms of "never-ending hordes", "invasions", "landings" and other expressions taken from the vocabulary of warfare. They speak of public order but they create public fear. Once identified with criminals, the outsiders are finally shut away and deported through the prison camps, where there is no trace of the legal guarantees foreseen by the law but confined to paper; no trace of any right to communicate, to see a lawyer…Television isolates, does away with communication and steals time from action and rebellion, giving the illusion of knowledge. D'Alema, the national-socialist, has found a new way of providing social support: linking the Lottery to the Rainbow Mission! We Italians, 50% of whom are migrants, are forgetting our own history, the insults and the suffering experienced in northern Italy (where signs used to read: "We do not let rooms to southerners"), as in the other parts of the world. Television chat is repeated in the streets and provides the terrain on which right-wing opinions flourish: "There are no jobs, so why let foreigners in?" asks the television. The safeguarding of memory is a daily struggle of truth against lies, here at home, as in Chiapas. The death squads are border armies supported by television. But we shall not lose our memories as migrants - at least one of our relatives has been one: our answer to the fear spread by the mass media is the truth of direct contact and the reasonableness of people fighting to destroy profit and the exploitation of the world.


Citizens' consultations in every district!
Universal citizens' income! Universal general strike by people of all colours!





from the mountains to the stock exchanges


The strength of the Zapatist rebellion can also be seen in its ability to interpret the changes taking place in the structure of dominion and the corresponding, necessary changes in the liberation processes. This
strength has been mainly determined by the capacity of the Indios to transform, through their culture and knowledge, the genetic code of the first jungle warriors, which approached them with the old dogmas of the "fire groups".


This interpretation leads to an encouragement to Europeans to "start the revolution" in the European centres of the international capitalist, market system and reflect on the great transformations that are taking place in countries with a high concentration of capital. It urges us to look carefully at the new categories of production workers and at the new forms of exploitation and withdrawal of guarantees and rights to a "dignified life" that these new categories bring with them.

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FireBrand
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Fri Mar-14-03 01:09 PM

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13. "idealism...but instead, suppose we embraced"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          


pluralism rather than diversity.

hmm...

that would change things abit wouldn't it?
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Federisco
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Sat Mar-15-03 12:58 PM

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14. "it does..."
In response to Reply # 13
Sat Mar-15-03 12:59 PM

  

          

i had to look in the dictionary to understand it. (hehm)

"A condition in which numerous distinct ethnic, religious, or cultural groups are present and tolerated within a society.

The doctrine that reality is composed of many ultimate substances.

The belief that no single explanatory system or view of reality can account for all the phenomena of life."

PS. after i posted the text above i read that the italian white overalls movement has died out (two years ago i think). the leaders realized the movement was finished, it had reached its maturity (the genova demonstrations, where the one young man who was killed by the police was a part of that movement) and went back to where most movements go.

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