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Subject: "War Post- the meat & potatoes" This topic is locked.
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guerilla_love
Charter member
8273 posts
Tue Mar-18-03 04:16 AM

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"War Post- the meat & potatoes"
Thu Mar-27-03 05:26 AM by Quest4Knowledge

          

In order to avoid flooding the board with articles, please post articles & opinions here or in another pre-existing post.

Thanks!

.....

"Who need fossil fuel when the sun ain't goin' nowhere"
- Amiri Baraka

http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines

BUY MY BOOK- only $6! Inbox me for details

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
yummmy...meat and potatoes
Mar 18th 2003
1
my thoughts
Mar 18th 2003
2
RE: my thoughts
Mar 18th 2003
6
      RE: my thoughts
Mar 18th 2003
11
           RE: my thoughts
Mar 19th 2003
49
                RE: my thoughts
Mar 21st 2003
119
                     RE: my thoughts
Mar 22nd 2003
128
RE: Bush is the man!
Mar 18th 2003
3
Keep complaining
Mar 18th 2003
4
      RE: HUH???
Mar 18th 2003
8
      RE: Keep complaining
Mar 19th 2003
50
      Your "democracy" is a big joke.
Mar 21st 2003
102
      RE: Keep complaining
Mar 26th 2003
169
i feel ill.
Mar 18th 2003
5
RE: i feel ill.
Mar 21st 2003
111
This like every war ever is all about one thing
Mar 18th 2003
7
RE: Cosign
Mar 18th 2003
9
RE: This like every war ever is all about one thing
Mar 19th 2003
39
RE: War Post- the meat & potatoes
Mar 18th 2003
10
This war will be VERY interesting ...
Mar 18th 2003
12
two more
Mar 18th 2003
13
RE: two more
Mar 19th 2003
51
      RE: two more
Mar 19th 2003
52
      not at all
Mar 21st 2003
118
RE: This war will be VERY interesting ...
Mar 21st 2003
117
      But America has proven itself
Mar 22nd 2003
126
48 hour ultimatum proven to be BS
Mar 18th 2003
14
RE: 48 hour ultimatum proven to be BS
Mar 18th 2003
15
      RE: 48 hour ultimatum proven to be BS
Mar 19th 2003
53
did y'all see this
Mar 18th 2003
16
RE: did y'all see this
Mar 21st 2003
103
Also, do not burn oil fields...........................
Mar 18th 2003
17
RE: War Post- the meat & potatoes
Mar 18th 2003
18
RE: War Post- the meat & potatoes
Mar 19th 2003
40
RE: War Post- the meat & potatoes
Mar 18th 2003
19
i know now why we're in this
Mar 19th 2003
20
RE: i know now why we're in this
Mar 19th 2003
22
      she acted like
Mar 19th 2003
35
RE: War Post- the meat & potatoes
Mar 19th 2003
21
deep inside rage...
Mar 21st 2003
115
about seenic's article
Mar 19th 2003
23
the euro
Mar 19th 2003
24
the problem is
Mar 19th 2003
26
      RE: the problem is
Mar 19th 2003
28
           RE: the problem is
Mar 19th 2003
31
                RE: the problem is
Mar 19th 2003
33
                     wanted to ask about this
Mar 19th 2003
34
                          good question!
Mar 19th 2003
37
                               sounds too close to
Mar 19th 2003
45
                               RE: sounds too close to
Mar 19th 2003
59
                                    not brainwashed at all
Mar 20th 2003
71
                                    RE: sounds too close to
Mar 30th 2003
176
                               RE: good question!
Mar 20th 2003
68
                                    RE: good question!
Mar 20th 2003
69
More EURO proof...
Mar 19th 2003
61
      its pretty simple!
Mar 20th 2003
70
           EURO not OIL...you missed the point
Mar 20th 2003
72
                RE: EURO not OIL...you missed the point
Mar 20th 2003
81
                     RE: EURO not OIL...you missed the point
Mar 20th 2003
92
                          RE: EURO not OIL...you missed the point
Mar 21st 2003
104
RE: War Post- the meat & potatoes
Mar 19th 2003
25
comic relief
Mar 19th 2003
27
hehe
Mar 19th 2003
29
what i don't get is......
Mar 19th 2003
30
i know i wouldn't
Mar 19th 2003
32
huh??? (no spanish troop participation)
Mar 19th 2003
36
"Yeah, we got your back..."
Mar 19th 2003
38
      RE: "Yeah, we got your back..."
Mar 19th 2003
42
from michael moore:
Mar 19th 2003
41
RE: War Post- the meat & potatoes
Mar 19th 2003
43
Papa Bush Screw Up Twelve Years....
Mar 19th 2003
44
Depressing survey results
Mar 19th 2003
46
Not Really
Mar 21st 2003
106
Oh great
Mar 21st 2003
110
Al-Salaam Alayikum
Mar 19th 2003
47
Weapons inspector: 'US gave us wrong data'
Mar 19th 2003
48
Americans are such fucking IDIOTS!
Mar 19th 2003
54
yeah 'cause
Mar 19th 2003
55
War and Star Wars
Mar 19th 2003
56
RE: War and Star Wars
Mar 24th 2003
136
long and VERY thorough PNAC/policy article
Mar 19th 2003
57
article on news script approval
Mar 19th 2003
58
RE: article on news script approval
Mar 19th 2003
60
operation "shock and awe?"
Mar 19th 2003
62
RE: operation "shock and awe?"
Mar 20th 2003
75
WAR HAS BEGUN!!!
Mar 19th 2003
63
let us NOT forget that
Mar 19th 2003
64
RE: let us NOT forget that
Mar 19th 2003
65
WOO!!!!
Mar 20th 2003
67
      What kind of sick fuck cheers for war?
Mar 20th 2003
73
           ahahahahahah!!!!!
Mar 20th 2003
80
                In all seriousness, it's not a funny or happy thing...
Mar 20th 2003
91
                Word ...
Mar 20th 2003
94
                What an idiot
Mar 21st 2003
107
CIA Had him
Mar 19th 2003
66
Are we this stupid??
Mar 20th 2003
74
America's $400bn war bill
Mar 20th 2003
76
RE: U.S. brainwashed?
Mar 20th 2003
78
      RE: U.S. brainwashed?
Mar 21st 2003
114
Damn
Mar 20th 2003
77
Co sign!
Mar 20th 2003
83
      RE: Co sign!
Mar 20th 2003
86
           Lurkin' more than anything
Mar 25th 2003
153
is bush forrest gump in a suit?
Mar 20th 2003
79
This War=Bullshit
Mar 20th 2003
82
oh no....(iraqis detained)
Mar 20th 2003
84
RE: Thanks LexM
Mar 20th 2003
90
RE: oh no....(iraqis detained)
Mar 22nd 2003
129
we who are about to die salute you
Mar 20th 2003
85
From a kenyan newspaper
Mar 20th 2003
87
RE: From a kenyan newspaper
Mar 20th 2003
88
My new opinion.
Mar 20th 2003
89
RE: My new opinion.
Mar 20th 2003
93
Sorry if I wasn't clear...
Mar 20th 2003
95
RE: About this war....
Mar 20th 2003
96
      I'm aware of everything you just said.
Mar 20th 2003
98
RE: My new opinion.
Mar 20th 2003
97
Ugh that post was messed up something terrible.
Mar 20th 2003
99
RE: My new opinion.
Mar 24th 2003
140
      Russians providing Iraqi's with technology to help kill
Mar 24th 2003
141
      Agreed
Mar 24th 2003
143
RE: War Post- the meat & potatoes
Mar 20th 2003
100
Depends on what you mean by support.
Mar 20th 2003
101
I support the individuals, not the collective
Mar 24th 2003
144
War of Misinformation
Mar 21st 2003
105
What is the Coalition of the Willing?
Mar 21st 2003
108
another interesting message board
Mar 21st 2003
109
Weekend: Info on events going down?
Mar 21st 2003
112
A Socialist Perspective
Mar 21st 2003
113
War sign of End Times????
Mar 21st 2003
116
the relevance of this
Mar 21st 2003
120
Bush Sr. still supported Saddam after Halabja
Mar 21st 2003
122
      i wasnt making a point
Mar 23rd 2003
133
           of course you were making a point
Mar 26th 2003
165
                yes i know all of that
Mar 26th 2003
167
                     if you knew all of that
Mar 27th 2003
173
                          trying
Mar 27th 2003
174
                               you should pick another starting point for your context
Mar 27th 2003
175
why isnt iraq using any of its horrible weapons?
Mar 21st 2003
121
exactly for this reason
Mar 22nd 2003
127
Turkish troops have crossed into Kurdish Northern Iraq
Mar 21st 2003
123
yeah
Mar 21st 2003
124
3rd u.s. diplomat resigns
Mar 22nd 2003
125
text of letter
Mar 30th 2003
177
more lame protestors
Mar 22nd 2003
130
The Lame Ass Fench!!!!
Mar 22nd 2003
131
combat pay is UP TO $150.00 per month.
Mar 23rd 2003
132
um....
Mar 23rd 2003
134
RE: combat pay is UP TO $150.00 per month.
Mar 24th 2003
138
      Suave Bro - where ya at????
Mar 24th 2003
139
ANALYSIS: DOUBTS RAISED ON STRATEGY............
Mar 23rd 2003
135
its war goddamit
Mar 24th 2003
137
you said a lot
Mar 24th 2003
142
      RE: you said a lot
Mar 24th 2003
146
           subjectivity??
Mar 25th 2003
150
                RE: subjectivity??
Mar 25th 2003
154
Respect or Disrespect Canada?
Mar 24th 2003
145
respect
Mar 25th 2003
147
      but y
Mar 25th 2003
158
article: Carlyle Group
Mar 25th 2003
148
article: The Big Lie
Mar 25th 2003
149
Cheney's Lesbian Daughter en route to Baghdad...
Mar 25th 2003
151
wow
Mar 25th 2003
152
yo, did you read an american source? cheney's staff say
Mar 25th 2003
156
UN UPRISING!!!!!!!
Mar 25th 2003
155
AN uprising..i hate typos
Mar 25th 2003
157
once again you took to the lie too soon
Mar 26th 2003
160
      um...
Mar 26th 2003
168
RE: A few questions...
Mar 25th 2003
159
good questions
Mar 26th 2003
161
article: SIX DAYS OF SHAME
Mar 26th 2003
162
How we won the american revolution
Mar 26th 2003
163
war brough to you by pnac
Mar 26th 2003
164
US gov't. delegation reported to seek cease fire
Mar 26th 2003
166
Take the Iraq Quiz.
Mar 26th 2003
170
article: Baghdad carnage more than 'collateral damage'
Mar 27th 2003
171
American forces out maneuvered
Mar 27th 2003
172

haji rana pinya
Charter member
53604 posts
Tue Mar-18-03 04:37 AM

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1. "yummmy...meat and potatoes"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

im starving

*********************
www.dumhi.com

  

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SugarCane
Charter member
12416 posts
Tue Mar-18-03 07:55 AM

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2. "my thoughts"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

first i think bush is stupid and dangerous. i think he is dangerous because he thinks he's doing the right thing. i don't think anyone is AGAINST disarming iraq, it's the manner in which they are disarmed that is causing the opposition. i am worried but not as much as i probably should be. i am more worried for the aftermath of war than the war itself. my mom is worried because i'm in nyc and she sometimes asks me what i'm wearing for the day. i know why she asks that and it freaks me out because i don't want to be on some missing poster like those i saw after 9/11. "last seen wearing a white shirt and jeans".

  

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rhombus
Charter member
299 posts
Tue Mar-18-03 11:06 AM

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6. "RE: my thoughts"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

>i don't think anyone is AGAINST disarming iraq, it's the
>manner in which they are disarmed that is causing the
>opposition.

can you please offer an alternative? if iraq is clearly not disarming on their own, what method of forced disarming would be acceptable? keep in mind that I am not pro-war here either. but having had many debates with my pro-war wife, I cannot come up with an alternative. i have never been pro-war, but if ever there was a time, it is now.

--rhombus

  

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jahsonic71
Member since Oct 23rd 2002
114 posts
Tue Mar-18-03 11:58 AM

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11. "RE: my thoughts"
In response to Reply # 6
Tue Mar-18-03 12:00 PM

  

          

Iraq's military capabilities were largely destroyed in Desert Storm I.

Balsa wood drones, missles that have a range of 150 Miles, and aluminum tubes to DO NOT = weapons of mass destruction.

Saddam is probably hiding chemical weapons, and so far the only times he has used them is in his war with Iran and on the Kurds. In both instances he did so with the full sanction of his handlers back in the US of A.

Rather than be presented with the manichean choice of disarmament or invasion, there is a third option; containment. It has worked (rather sadistically and unjustly) on Cuba and it could work here.

Ongoing inspections could be used as a method of containment. US Satellite intelligence is allegedly able to read a business card laying on the ground, so finding facilities for the production of chemical weapons should be a no brainer.

The only remaining question would be; "How do we relieve the suffering of the Iraqi people under Saddam's rule?"

The answer lies in partitioning.

The UN (and thus the US) controls 1/3 of Iraq via the 'No Fly Zones' established after Desert Storm I - The mostly Shiite area under the southern and the Kurdish areas under the norther NFZ.

If these areas were made part of a UN protectorate, Infrastructure, humanitarian relief and democratic instutions could be developed in these areas providing a model for future intervention.

These areas could be protected with a fraction of the forces (and money) that were are currently planning to employ in invading Iraq. The only mandate for the use of force would be in the protection of refugees fleeing the parts of Iraq still controlled by Hussein.

So you see, there are many options to wholesale invasion of a country who hasn't attacked us.

"The illegal we can do right now; the unconstitutional will take a little longer." - Henry Kissinger

  

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rhombus
Charter member
299 posts
Wed Mar-19-03 09:34 AM

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49. "RE: my thoughts"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

>Balsa wood drones, missles that have a range of 150 Miles,
>and aluminum tubes to DO NOT = weapons of mass destruction.

true. he probably doesn't have these considering we have evidence that he is trying to get the resources necessary to build them...but that doesn't retract from the truth that he has chemical weapons (as you said) that he is willing to use, even upon his own people. consider also that he signed agreements to remove those things from his arsenal, and he has not. the UN was in agreement then that he had to do so. the world community essentially judged him then. the problem today lies in the fact that those same people are unwilling to commit to the enforcement of it.

>Rather than be presented with the manichean choice of
>disarmament or invasion, there is a third option;
>containment. It has worked (rather sadistically and
>unjustly) on Cuba and it could work here.

define "worked". if you mean that the embargo's with Cuba have succeeded in crippling a people while still allowing their leader to remain in power and continue to opress them, then yeah. Consider a Cuba without Castro (and no embargo). You'd see Cuba come back to being a country of wealth as they were back in the day. Granted Castro was a great source of that uprising (educating the people, gaining their independence), but he has proven himself over time as a tyrant, opressing and murdering dissidents, etc. these are not the actions of a man with the interest of the people in mind.

>The only remaining question would be; "How do we relieve the
>suffering of the Iraqi people under Saddam's rule?"
>
>The answer lies in partitioning.

although this sounds like a good idea on the surface, don't you think that this would require a strong military presence to enforce, one that would last a heck of a lot longer than this war is going to require? And in the process further build a deeper hatred for a country that many people in that region of the world believe unfairly imposes itself on the world already? We can't just go in there and tell people "We'll control the Southern part of the country so all you Sadaam haters come live with us." If that were the case, we'd essentially have a 51st state.

once again, I want to assert that I am not pro this war necessarily. but this doesn't seem like a good solution to me either. imho of course.

--rhombus

  

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duxt
Member since Dec 19th 2002
4 posts
Fri Mar-21-03 03:29 PM

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119. "RE: my thoughts"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          


> You'd see Cuba come back to being a country of wealth as
>they were back in the day.

-Just wanted to clear something up:
Cuba wasn't a "country of wealth" back in the day. There was alot of wealth there but it was controlled by a very small number of people... and alot of the wealth was controlled by Americans, not Cubans. Most Cubans before Castro, especially the people who's ancestors were slaves (Africans/Chinese), lived in huts without running water or electricity, and had little or no education.
Now Cuba has one of the highest literacy rates in Latin America, and one of the lowest rates of infant mortality. I'm not saying that Castro is right in all of his actions, but he has done alot of good for his people.

  

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rhombus
Charter member
299 posts
Sat Mar-22-03 03:59 PM

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128. "RE: my thoughts"
In response to Reply # 119


  

          

>
>> You'd see Cuba come back to being a country of wealth as
>>they were back in the day.
>
>-Just wanted to clear something up:
>Cuba wasn't a "country of wealth" back in the day. There was
>alot of wealth there but it was controlled by a very small
>number of people...

I was never saying that they were super rich, but they were sending money all over the globe to fund rebellions and such, and they were doing fine at home with the export of sugar with no restrictions. It wasn't until the US started to restrict the amount of sugar that they bought from Cuba and then followed with the embargo, teamed with the demise of their strongest world allies (USSR), that they went to hell in a handbasket.

>Now Cuba has one of the highest literacy rates in Latin
>America, and one of the lowest rates of infant mortality.

I mentioned literacy as a high point for Fidel. I know that this is and was unheard of for a world leader. Are we in disagreement or are you just questioning my use of the term "wealthy". If that is the case, this is an issue of semantics.

--rhombus

  

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noirelover1
Charter member
592 posts
Tue Mar-18-03 08:17 AM

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3. "RE: Bush is the man!"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I hate his policies and the things he stands for but DAMN!
This mofo does whatever he wants like it aint shit! Stole the election, murders the english vocabulary, tell everybody he dont give a damn what you think about the war, ignores the economy, gives tax cut that fucks up the deficit, pre-grants defense and rebuilding contracts to buddies, submits budget proposal thats way outta wack, (add on here).............. does all this with a straight face, then looks at the crowd like "what the fuck ya'll going to do about it, WHAT WHAT WHAT"


Not only does he get away with it, but nobody stands up to him (demoBRATS) and people love him.

Bush is a REAL GANGSTA, forget 50 Cent and any other 'rap' gangsta you think you know
................................................................
Well again I say I dig JAY Zs ability, but as a 30 plus man sometimes Im baffled by him. The fact of having the half white MID SOUTH COLISEUM in MEMPHIS crowd yell my nigga nationally on SHOWTIME a few miles from where DR MARTIN LUTHER KING was killed in 1968, while comparing himself to him can be confusing, but again read what I just wrote and judge for yourself. The cat is much smarter than that.

Chuck D

"I worry when people are able to imitate hip-hop so well on Saturday Night Live skits -- it means we have set this culture up to be just one thing. I think the big problem comes from us trying to please the crowd. We limit hip-hop to just one look, one uniform, one statement of being real: getting money and guns and women, or selling dope all the time.
"But you try to please the crowd, and the crowd might change. They may say, 'We're tired of that gangsta stuff.' Or a new cat will come in, doing the same thing as you. But because his face is new, he'll get accepted(50 Cent). As Ice Cube said, 'They'll have a new nigga next year.'

Common

"All respect to Luda, but how could she (Oprah) put him on the show if he's singing 'Move bitch get out the way,' 'I got hoes in different area codes?' I don't understand that. - Nas

  

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JayKizzo
Member since Sep 23rd 2002
1119 posts
Tue Mar-18-03 08:49 AM

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4. "Keep complaining"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

Nothing will ever change, someone will always bitch about the policies and what any President does, or doesn't do.

The only thing in the game that changes is the names.

If things are so terrible, what are you going to do to change it? I'll say that 99% of the "anti-war" cronies on here won't do shit, except add another post about the war or bush. WOW!

  

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noirelover1
Charter member
592 posts
Tue Mar-18-03 11:23 AM

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8. "RE: HUH???"
In response to Reply # 4


          

................................................................
Well again I say I dig JAY Zs ability, but as a 30 plus man sometimes Im baffled by him. The fact of having the half white MID SOUTH COLISEUM in MEMPHIS crowd yell my nigga nationally on SHOWTIME a few miles from where DR MARTIN LUTHER KING was killed in 1968, while comparing himself to him can be confusing, but again read what I just wrote and judge for yourself. The cat is much smarter than that.

Chuck D

"I worry when people are able to imitate hip-hop so well on Saturday Night Live skits -- it means we have set this culture up to be just one thing. I think the big problem comes from us trying to please the crowd. We limit hip-hop to just one look, one uniform, one statement of being real: getting money and guns and women, or selling dope all the time.
"But you try to please the crowd, and the crowd might change. They may say, 'We're tired of that gangsta stuff.' Or a new cat will come in, doing the same thing as you. But because his face is new, he'll get accepted(50 Cent). As Ice Cube said, 'They'll have a new nigga next year.'

Common

"All respect to Luda, but how could she (Oprah) put him on the show if he's singing 'Move bitch get out the way,' 'I got hoes in different area codes?' I don't understand that. - Nas

  

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rhombus
Charter member
299 posts
Wed Mar-19-03 09:44 AM

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50. "RE: Keep complaining"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

>Nothing will ever change, someone will always bitch about
>the policies and what any President does, or doesn't do.
>
>The only thing in the game that changes is the names.

I agree. It is impossible that Bush please the entire population of the US. But right now, he does have the majority (latest polls show near 60% - not an overwhelming majority, but a majority nonetheless).

As a member of a democracy, I feel like I have a need to back not only my president, but also the other members of my democracy that feel the opposite. that doesn't necessarily mean that I agree with them. someday, I may be on the majority side and I would hope that those that feel different do the same.

a democracy lives and dies not on the feelings of the individual, but ultimately on the feelings of the whole. some don't like the idea of succumbing to the whole on occasion, but it sure beats laying down for a dictator all of the time.

--rhombus

  

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Warp and Woof
Member since Dec 05th 2002
9999 posts
Fri Mar-21-03 02:20 AM

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102. "Your "democracy" is a big joke."
In response to Reply # 50


          

First of all, there's only two real options to choose from, and even those two are hard to tell from each other. Nader's party is just an itch on the butt of the republicans and democrats.
In theory, someone could start their own party, but in reality, it's impossible in a country where dollars decide who gets the most attention in the media.
After the so-called elections, one man practically gets to rule a country that is the biggest militaristic and economic force in the world. In this case a man that's hardly capable of pronouncing his own damn name. But hey, the NRA, oil industry and other corporate entities support his dumb ass with their dollars, plus his daddy has some connections here and there too, so he doesn't need to have any political capabilities whatsoever.
Add to that the conservative christian lobby and politicians saying "God bless America" everytime they exhale in a country where there's supposed to be a separation of church and state, and the joke is complete.

And you believe that you live in a democracy? One with the (self-proclaimed) right to inflict such "democracy" and "freedom" upon countries who's people never even asked for it? A country that chooses who has to oblige to which UN sanctions (in other words, the US tells the world what to do, not the UN).

I'd be seriously ashamed of being part of such a democracy.

(I hope you'll see that I'm not attacking you in personal, cause that's not what I'm after. Let's discuss if you don't agree)


I'm #ffffff

  

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Drastic53
Member since Mar 26th 2003
1 posts
Wed Mar-26-03 04:21 PM

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169. "RE: Keep complaining"
In response to Reply # 4


          


It seems that you are arguing for complacency and the classic Who gives a S*** attitude. I believe that we have to find new ways to make a difference, and that by removing ourselves from the political realm (because money and power has already done that), we are forced to perceive ourselves not only as Americans, but as spiritual beings.
With this notion comes not only a new paradigm from which to work from, but also a new goal to work for. You have stated that we cannot make a difference on the political level, true. But by giving up you are riding yourself of making a difference.

As a country we need to start with ourselves first, fix our own personal issues, recognize God as the Co-creator in our life, and then go from there. The change we can institute is minute, yet the outcomes are real.

Try smiling at a stranger, or saying hello to someone who is in a hurry, volunteer sometime at your local AIDS clinic. This is what we can change; this is what we are called to do.


-I seek truth, so therefore I come to Love, in turn I must practice Peace.

I seek truth, so therefore I come to Love, in turn I must practice Peace

  

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LexM
Charter member
28342 posts
Tue Mar-18-03 10:25 AM

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5. "i feel ill."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

this is going to be bad.

bad bad bad.


_____________________________
peace.
wisdom.
sanity.
clarity.
justice.

www.poetsagainstthewar.org



~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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ya Setshego
Charter member
4259 posts
Fri Mar-21-03 08:35 AM

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111. "RE: i feel ill."
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

Me too.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Oooo baby I like it raw. Oooo baby I like it RAAAW!(c)ODB- Shimmy Shimmy Ya

  

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chillinCHiEF
Charter member
39871 posts
Tue Mar-18-03 11:15 AM

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7. "This like every war ever is all about one thing"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

$

Bush knows the euro is gaining power, and this is America's attempt to ensure that the US Dollar controls oil.

The French know what this is about and also since they have been trading with Iraq this whole time, they protest. You think the country that sat idle in WWII when Ethiopia was getting bombed by Italy suddenly grew a heart? True there are some real peace supporters, but for the most part its all about the Benjamins. Bush is not nearly as dumb as people tend to think he is, he knows what hes doing and knows he stands to make a fortune on this. Also, its silly to think all these decisions are being made by this one man. There are other people with power in the US and Britain who will make a fortune off of this as well.

  

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noirelover1
Charter member
592 posts
Tue Mar-18-03 11:27 AM

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9. "RE: Cosign"
In response to Reply # 7


          

DOLLAR DOLLAR BILL YA"LL
................................................................
Well again I say I dig JAY Zs ability, but as a 30 plus man sometimes Im baffled by him. The fact of having the half white MID SOUTH COLISEUM in MEMPHIS crowd yell my nigga nationally on SHOWTIME a few miles from where DR MARTIN LUTHER KING was killed in 1968, while comparing himself to him can be confusing, but again read what I just wrote and judge for yourself. The cat is much smarter than that.

Chuck D

"I worry when people are able to imitate hip-hop so well on Saturday Night Live skits -- it means we have set this culture up to be just one thing. I think the big problem comes from us trying to please the crowd. We limit hip-hop to just one look, one uniform, one statement of being real: getting money and guns and women, or selling dope all the time.
"But you try to please the crowd, and the crowd might change. They may say, 'We're tired of that gangsta stuff.' Or a new cat will come in, doing the same thing as you. But because his face is new, he'll get accepted(50 Cent). As Ice Cube said, 'They'll have a new nigga next year.'

Common

"All respect to Luda, but how could she (Oprah) put him on the show if he's singing 'Move bitch get out the way,' 'I got hoes in different area codes?' I don't understand that. - Nas

  

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BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
51250 posts
Wed Mar-19-03 07:06 AM

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39. "RE: This like every war ever is all about one thing"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

BIN-FUCKING-GO!

peace.

let's play ping pong ■

  

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Tam_Tam
Charter member
75 posts
Tue Mar-18-03 11:47 AM

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10. "RE: War Post- the meat & potatoes"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Insurrection!

  

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keithdawg
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5593 posts
Tue Mar-18-03 12:11 PM

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12. "This war will be VERY interesting ..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I don't agree with it, but since it is happening, there's a crazy dynamic at hand.

Scenario 1: Saddam does have WMD's.

If Saddam has WMD's, he surely hasn't spent all the time, money and resources, and subjected himself to international scrutiny and (imminent) retribution for nothing.

If Saddam truly has WMD's, it seems safe to assume he'd either use them against the US-led invasion or disseminate them for US against Israeli and American interests.

The repurcussions of him having WMD's and his subsequent deployment of them in the face of invasion will likely be quite severe if this is the scenario.

How would Bush and Co respond to a chemical or bio attack on US troops? Or on American interests? Nukes do not seem too far-fetched to me, especially considering Rumsfield's insistence that the US is willing to use them in response to WMD's launched on US forces. Either way, response to WMD's against America would be fierce and detrimental to people of Iraq, and consequently, to the image of America after zealously catalyzing such a disaster.

Scenario 2: Saddam either doesn't have WMD's or has hidden them some place the US can't find them.

Hah! Could you imagine the repurcussions here ... the cover-ups ... g-dub and Co doublespeak ... "they've already managed to distribute these weapons to Al Queada operatives, and it's the damn UN's fault for not moving on this when they should have".

"If life is prison, then music is the yardtime"--Gift of Gab

"I've been a big genesis fan ... take the lyrics to "Land of Confusion," in which a singer addresses the problem of abusive political authority. This is laid down with a groove funkier and blacker than anything Prince or Michael Jackson-or any other black artist of recent years, for that matter-has come up with ... yet as danceable as the album is, it also has a stripped-down urgency that not even the overrated Bruce Springsteen can equal"--American Psycho

"I'm tryin' to read your poetry but I'm helpless like a rich man's child"--Bob Dylan

"The only thing you owe the past is wasted time"--Beck

Do yourself a favor,
Be your own savior.

Daniel Johnston

  

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MicheleQJ
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Tue Mar-18-03 12:31 PM

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13. "two more"
In response to Reply # 12


          

#3) he doesnt have them and once we're in there we 'find' them and show them off

#4) we use them against them and site them as evidence that he tried to use it against us

http://myspace.com/139003080
http://www.last.fm/user/micheleqj/
http://myspace.com/alluswe
http://myspace.com/fermentedspirits
http://www.last.fm/music/Alluswe

  

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rhombus
Charter member
299 posts
Wed Mar-19-03 09:46 AM

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51. "RE: two more"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

>#3) he doesnt have them and once we're in there we 'find'
>them and show them off
>
>#4) we use them against them and site them as evidence that
>he tried to use it against us

a little too "Comspiracy Theory" don't you think?

--rhombus

  

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rhombus
Charter member
299 posts
Wed Mar-19-03 09:47 AM

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52. "RE: two more"
In response to Reply # 51


  

          

of course I mean Conspiracy...
>--rhombus

  

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MicheleQJ
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Fri Mar-21-03 12:55 PM

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118. "not at all"
In response to Reply # 51


          

consider all the lies

lies to get gulf war I started since proven false
recent lies to UN on iraq wmd that inpsectors followed up on and proved false
presentation of plagarized and 10 year old material as proof
bugging of un diplomats homes

consider use of banned weapons
us already using and have used banned depleted uranium weapons

those all are documentable

so i wont even get into 9/11

http://myspace.com/139003080
http://www.last.fm/user/micheleqj/
http://myspace.com/alluswe
http://myspace.com/fermentedspirits
http://www.last.fm/music/Alluswe

  

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KOONTZILLA
Charter member
652 posts
Fri Mar-21-03 12:33 PM

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117. "RE: This war will be VERY interesting ..."
In response to Reply # 12


          


>
>How would Bush and Co respond to a chemical or bio attack on
>US troops? Or on American interests? Nukes do not seem too
>far-fetched to me, especially considering Rumsfield's
>insistence that the US is willing to use them in response to
>WMD's launched on US forces. Either way, response to WMD's
>against America would be fierce and detrimental to people of
>Iraq, and consequently, to the image of America after
>zealously catalyzing such a disaster.
>

Hold up... Didn't all U.N. backed countries sign the treaty that NOONE would possess NUKES, including AMERIKKKA ???? So, if RUMSFELD said we have NUKES, why hasn't anyone inspected AMERIKKKA ???? Just a small question ...

And anotha thang, when is Canada suppose to inspect us ??? I can't wait to see this shit ...


"Niggas mad cause Ibrags about the cash I got, but I'm used to not havin alot, I'm from the gutter and ohh..."-Jay-Z

"Expensive shoes worn, Loui Viton see-through gone, CoChes, my face is like a coupon..."Jay-Z

  

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keithdawg
Charter member
5593 posts
Sat Mar-22-03 08:57 AM

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126. "But America has proven itself"
In response to Reply # 117


  

          

as a responsible country who would never use nukes in the first place, never wrecklessly invade other countries without being provoked first and never utilize nukes as an international strongarming device ... um, wait ... nevermind.

"If life is prison, then music is the yardtime"--Gift of Gab

"I've been a big genesis fan ... take the lyrics to "Land of Confusion," in which a singer addresses the problem of abusive political authority. This is laid down with a groove funkier and blacker than anything Prince or Michael Jackson-or any other black artist of recent years, for that matter-has come up with ... yet as danceable as the album is, it also has a stripped-down urgency that not even the overrated Bruce Springsteen can equal"--American Psycho

"I'm tryin' to read your poetry but I'm helpless like a rich man's child"--Bob Dylan

"The only thing you owe the past is wasted time"--Beck

Do yourself a favor,
Be your own savior.

Daniel Johnston

  

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MicheleQJ
Charter member
5380 posts
Tue Mar-18-03 01:22 PM

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14. "48 hour ultimatum proven to be BS"
In response to Reply # 0


          

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2859297.stm

today:
"White House declares US forces would enter Iraq even if Saddam Hussein obeys order to leave."

yesterday:
"President Bush delivers live television address. He says "Saddam Hussein and his sons must leave Iraq within 48 hours. Their refusal to do so will result in military conflict, commenced at time of our choosing."

http://myspace.com/139003080
http://www.last.fm/user/micheleqj/
http://myspace.com/alluswe
http://myspace.com/fermentedspirits
http://www.last.fm/music/Alluswe

  

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Quest4Knowledge
Member since Jun 20th 2002
2797 posts
Tue Mar-18-03 01:35 PM

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15. "RE: 48 hour ultimatum proven to be BS"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2859297.stm
>
>today:
>"White House declares US forces would enter Iraq even if
>Saddam Hussein obeys order to leave."

Last night he said it would be to destory the supposed WMD
and make sure saddam and his cronies are gone for good.

Of course no one with common sense would believe that.


>yesterday:
>"President Bush delivers live television address. He says
>"Saddam Hussein and his sons must leave Iraq within 48
>hours. Their refusal to do so will result in military
>conflict, commenced at time of our choosing."


Peace and Love
-Ren



---
In memory of my sig..

  

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rhombus
Charter member
299 posts
Wed Mar-19-03 09:49 AM

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53. "RE: 48 hour ultimatum proven to be BS"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

>Last night he said it would be to destory the supposed WMD
>and make sure saddam and his cronies are gone for good.
>
> Of course no one with common sense would believe that.

suppose he leaves and we don't go in there. iraq will have no leadership at all and will fall apart. anarchy...

  

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kaoticvibe
Charter member
1531 posts
Tue Mar-18-03 02:34 PM

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16. "did y'all see this"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/auspac/03/18/aus.opera/index.html


<---RIP Otha Turner(1910?-2003), blues legend, the last great African-American fife player in America. http://www.othaturner.com




"There's an old saying in Tennessee -- I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee -- that says, fool me once, shame on -- shame on you. Fool me -- you can't get fooled again." - guess who...contributing to the embetterment of America since 2000




"The most common way people give up their power is by thinking they don't have any." -Alice Walker


Sleep much?... Midnight Marauders 2004...

What's he building in ?Tom Waits

and now without further ado, the words of wisdom:

"Magic Shell's a helluva drug"
"im a little slow cause im slow"
-as always the illust

  

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Warp and Woof
Member since Dec 05th 2002
9999 posts
Fri Mar-21-03 02:33 AM

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103. "RE: did y'all see this"
In response to Reply # 16


          

They're being charged for inflicting "malicious damage"... sheesh. Maybe they could charge the US for inflicting malicious damage as well...

Nice action though!


I'm #ffffff

  

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Yank
Charter member
24509 posts
Tue Mar-18-03 02:41 PM

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17. "Also, do not burn oil fields..........................."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"that oil is for the Iraqi people"



yeah right..........

Lies run sprints.
Truths run marathons.

  

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onelove
Member since Jul 23rd 2002
1169 posts
Tue Mar-18-03 03:33 PM

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18. "RE: War Post- the meat & potatoes"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Im not so worried about the iraq thing, saddam doesnt have shit were gonna sweep through with a quickness. What worries me(besides the fact that thousands of iraquis are gonna die in "precision" air strikes) Is the aftermath of the war and the climate it is going to create.

First there is the whole nuclear prolefiration thing, since nukes are just considered a regular part of our arsenal and are most likley going to be used. Which means a whole lot of other countries are going to be willing to use their nukes too.

Then there is this preemption shit which means we, or anyone else can use the same rational to attack anyone they want to at any time. We are essentially making the UN defunct.

Add on to this the fact that he is proposing to promote peace and protecting the us by doing something that is only going to create more terrorism and send recruits flocking to al queda.


Beats to go:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/0/heatrisingproductionsmusic.htm

This flesh
If not because of this flesh
we could fly in the air
swim through the river
walk under the sea
and soon we would be home
soon we would be home.

"Still

  

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BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
51250 posts
Wed Mar-19-03 07:15 AM

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40. "RE: War Post- the meat & potatoes"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

LOL, you thing this is going ot be SWIFT???? LOL

how many CNN news boradcasts have you been brainwashed by.


peace.

let's play ping pong ■

  

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Zarathuckya
Charter member
2360 posts
Tue Mar-18-03 05:46 PM

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19. "RE: War Post- the meat & potatoes"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

ThuP@kRTHkY


  

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LexM
Charter member
28342 posts
Wed Mar-19-03 02:42 AM

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20. "i know now why we're in this"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

there was a girl on the radio last night

she's in the military. young. sounded black.

anyway, she starts off like, "i didn't get into this to go into a war, but the benefits are good and everything and they pay us so much to go over there...." ad nauseum

then, "america rules the world and we need to go over there. shoooot, *sucks teeth* why shouldn't we go? long as i'm gettin paid...and we need that oil, 'cause..."

*blink*

american stupidity at its finest.



_____________________________
peace.
wisdom.
sanity.
clarity.
justice.

www.poetsagainstthewar.org





~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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BLAKKRAGE
Member since May 20th 2002
555 posts
Wed Mar-19-03 03:43 AM

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22. "RE: i know now why we're in this"
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

Yo, and the lambs will quietly march into the slaughter just trying to get paid. Know your position.

blakkrage

blakkrage

  

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LexM
Charter member
28342 posts
Wed Mar-19-03 05:39 AM

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35. "she acted like"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

it was a rap video or something

it was horrendous.

as a black woman & a human being, i was appalled.

_____________________________
peace.
wisdom.
sanity.
clarity.
justice.

www.poetsagainstthewar.org





~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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BLAKKRAGE
Member since May 20th 2002
555 posts
Wed Mar-19-03 03:39 AM

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21. "RE: War Post- the meat & potatoes"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Okay everbody, Put your degree's in front of your face. This will be your protective Liberty Sheild. Now stop, drop and roll your edumacated/intellectual money greedy asses into that 6ft deep rectangular hole that you've been digging for 8hrs per day or more. Because in Amerikkka you get what you pay for and then some.

rAGE BLAKK

Yo, Fuck Elizabeth Smart, the Mormons and Satan, stupid fucking white people.

blakkrage

  

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BLAKKRAGE
Member since May 20th 2002
555 posts
Fri Mar-21-03 10:42 AM

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115. "deep inside rage..."
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

Peace is not lost, it's dangling on the most intricately woven spider's web, trying to escape the devil's wrath as debris and shrapnel fly into it's path on the outer spiral, planted on uncertain freedom and inevitable death.

The sky a blaze with star spangled doom hazes, dark clouds of oil smoke float. Black lungs hum. Heartbeat like a djembe so fast, it cracks the sternum.

Homes and buildings aflame, echoes of similar names being called out seeking members of family. Is this really happening, Is this reality?

Air tastes like battery acid. No clean water to drink before, even worse now, Iraqi sacred cow.

People running, screaming bloody murderous Americans, shameless Americans, the sky looks black, blood flowing into infested sewage drains like rain. Smell the temperature rise, death aura aroma, walking over bodies still warm, arranged like cobblestones.

Smart bombs manage precise damage of its target. Penetrate, invade, attack, rape, raid, and enslave with a new system, recycled victim for possession of something that will never be yours.

Blow down innocents front doors, crying children bleed red like the power tie around your neck. Lies launch from your oil and cotton money rich mouth like tomahawk missiles, tongue like thistle.

American ignorance is bliss, welcomes this fatal kiss of death. TV firing weapons of mass persuasion, glorifying invasion of another dark complexioned nation.

Truth reads like the pages of history books, different stage, and new title. Now they idolize headlines, catch phrases, titles and quotations while sitting in a backdrop of red, white and blue, drinking orange crush plus, changing the stations while claiming liberation of another nation in the name of your God and country.

Rage blakk


blakkrage

  

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LexM
Charter member
28342 posts
Wed Mar-19-03 03:50 AM

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23. "about seenic's article"
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Mar-19-03 03:51 AM

  

          

(didn't get it in before the lockdown...ha)

what the author says is fine, but

it ignores the significance of iraq & others switching to the euro as reserve currency and the new significance that gives OPEC--a discussion that's been going on in europe for months but we've never heard, even tho it would affect the dollar's supremacy & our economy

assumes we can believe the government's publicly stated plans vs. the backroom deals that are always made in situations like this

also ignores the role of the "pax americana" doctrine and the support it has in the bush administration

like even he said, these things can't be proven/disprovven, as such, but what he says is only one side of the argument.

only time will tell...


_____________________________
peace.
wisdom.
sanity.
clarity.
justice.

www.poetsagainstthewar.org





~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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foxnesn
Charter member
5240 posts
Wed Mar-19-03 03:57 AM

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24. "the euro"
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

>it ignores the significance of iraq & others switching to
>the euro as reserve currency and the new significance that
>gives OPEC--a discussion that's been going on in europe for
>months but we've never heard, even tho it would affect the
>dollar's supremacy & our economy

if the oil industry switches to the euro it wont neccesarily hurt the US economy. as long as the dollar is more valuable than the euro everying is find and even if the euro becomes more valuable it will have to be so much so that the US economy would be hurting not because of international business exchanges but because of domestic policies.

  

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LexM
Charter member
28342 posts
Wed Mar-19-03 04:18 AM

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26. "the problem is"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

that if the euro gains strength in opec, the dollar will no longer be the currency of trade in oil. even if the euro simply gains parity, that's an issue.

as reserve currency, the dollar would mean nothing. and since the gold standard isn't an issue anymore, that's all we have. nations will pull out of our banks, financial markets, etc.

we already have no manufacturing economy. that's another problem. everyone else makes the goods. we just distribute them, and in the long run, that's NOT how you make money.

the oil producing nations (and oil consuming nations who have a stake in seeing us go down because they realize they're not getting a piece of the pie if we "win") have a lot of power behind this.


_____________________________
peace.
wisdom.
sanity.
clarity.
justice.

www.poetsagainstthewar.org





~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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foxnesn
Charter member
5240 posts
Wed Mar-19-03 04:31 AM

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28. "RE: the problem is"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

>that if the euro gains strength in opec, the dollar will no
>longer be the currency of trade in oil. even if the euro
>simply gains parity, that's an issue.

i know, its called the oil-dollar nexus. it certainly is an issue but to say it is THE issue is alarmist.

>as reserve currency, the dollar would mean nothing. and
>since the gold standard isn't an issue anymore, that's all
>we have. nations will pull out of our banks, financial
>markets, etc.

certainly demand for the dollar will descrease, but the question is how much? unlike the member states of opec, the united states in not a developing nation whose sole export is oil.

>we already have no manufacturing economy. that's another
>problem. everyone else makes the goods. we just distribute
>them, and in the long run, that's NOT how you make money.

thats not true. america manufactures everything. you name it, we manufacture it.

>the oil producing nations (and oil consuming nations who
>have a stake in seeing us go down because they realize
>they're not getting a piece of the pie if we "win") have a
>lot of power behind this.

we live in a global economy. for the most part borders do not exist. because of this, international banks and industries have greater security. if demand for the dollar drops low europe, the middle east ,china, south america and everywhere feel the impact. no one wants to see the united states economy collapse. it is no one bests interest.

also, did you know that only 2 percent of the US GDP is spent on petroleum?

  

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LexM
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Wed Mar-19-03 04:58 AM

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31. "RE: the problem is"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

>>that if the euro gains strength in opec, the dollar will no
>>longer be the currency of trade in oil. even if the euro
>>simply gains parity, that's an issue.
>
>i know, its called the oil-dollar nexus. it certainly is an
>issue but to say it is THE issue is alarmist.

i agree. i'm against this, yeah, but i hesitate to say there is "one" issue. there are many.


>thats not true. america manufactures everything. you name
>it, we manufacture it.

not like we used to. and even though we have plants and factories and such, but it's more likely that we will create something, then sell it off to the highest bidder. we might make it here, give a few people jobs, but a company would much rather have it made overseas & not have to pay the workers much. and the factories we DO have close down daily.

my clothes, shoes, car (chrysler is no longer an american car), screwdriver, none of that is made in america anymore. those were the kinds of jobs people used to have that bolstered the economy.


>we live in a global economy. for the most part borders do
>not exist. because of this, international banks and
>industries have greater security. if demand for the dollar
>drops low europe, the middle east ,china, south america and
>everywhere feel the impact. no one wants to see the united
>states economy collapse. it is no one bests interest.

that's true, but people are not only seeing this this "war" from an economic standpoint. the world is looking at us now and the world is afraid. those millions in the streets in europe...
what kind of politicians will they elect from here on out?

what kinds of financial institutions and policies will they set up?

who else will we have alienated by the time this war is over?

if the white house had any farsight, they'd be thinking about these kinds of questions. in the long run, i'm worried about the world banding together to take us out.


>also, did you know that only 2 percent of the US GDP is
>spent on petroleum?

ok, but does it matter what we spend if what we're trying to buy it with has little/no value? i admit to not knowing much about finance and all that...but what i've read so far isn't too promising...this economy seems to be in trouble no matter what

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foxnesn
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Wed Mar-19-03 05:17 AM

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33. "RE: the problem is"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

thanks for the discussion!

>i agree. i'm against this, yeah, but i hesitate to say there
>is "one" issue. there are many.

yea defin many issues.

>not like we used to. and even though we have plants and
>factories and such, but it's more likely that we will create
>something, then sell it off to the highest bidder. we might
>make it here, give a few people jobs, but a company would
>much rather have it made overseas & not have to pay the
>workers much. and the factories we DO have close down daily.

true, but those factories overseas are still owned by US corporations.

>my clothes, shoes, car (chrysler is no longer an american
>car), screwdriver, none of that is made in america anymore.
>those were the kinds of jobs people used to have that
>bolstered the economy.

right, but times have changed and the job market has changed with it. think of 1999-2000 and the tech boom.

>that's true, but people are not only seeing this this "war"
>from an economic standpoint. the world is looking at us now
>and the world is afraid. those millions in the streets in
>europe...
>what kind of politicians will they elect from here on out?
>
>what kinds of financial institutions and policies will they
>set up?
>
>who else will we have alienated by the time this war is
>over?

i would say those are all economic questions because everything that happens effects the economy.

>if the white house had any farsight, they'd be thinking
>about these kinds of questions. in the long run, i'm worried
>about the world banding together to take us out.

i dont know if it would ever come to that. if they did it would have to be by physical force, not economic.

>>also, did you know that only 2 percent of the US GDP is
>>spent on petroleum?
>
>ok, but does it matter what we spend if what we're trying to
>buy it with has little/no value? i admit to not knowing much
>about finance and all that...but what i've read so far isn't
>too promising...this economy seems to be in trouble no
>matter what

the economy will rebound if the war is short. investors are waiting to see what happens. uncertainty may be the bain of the market but at the sametime a lot of money is made. >

  

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LexM
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Wed Mar-19-03 05:28 AM

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34. "wanted to ask about this"
In response to Reply # 33
Wed Mar-19-03 05:28 AM

  

          

>>not like we used to. and even though we have plants and
>>factories and such, but it's more likely that we will create
>>something, then sell it off to the highest bidder. we might
>>make it here, give a few people jobs, but a company would
>>much rather have it made overseas & not have to pay the
>>workers much. and the factories we DO have close down daily.
>
>true, but those factories overseas are still owned by US
>corporations.

yeah, but we don't *see* the money. the corporations/ceos do. but not "us". americans don't have those jobs, they're not getting paid the money, they're not spending that money or investing it here.

it's kind of like educating kids from foreign countries in engineering, business, computers, etc (not that i mind), but ignoring our own college-bound kids. it's shooting yourself in the foot.

i wonder what percentage of far eastern, indian, etc. students in those kinds of fields wind up going back home to use those skills.

but i have digressed...lol
_____________________________
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wisdom.
sanity.
clarity.
justice.

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~~~~
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foxnesn
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Wed Mar-19-03 06:03 AM

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37. "good question!"
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

>yeah, but we don't *see* the money. the corporations/ceos
>do. but not "us". americans don't have those jobs, they're
>not getting paid the money, they're not spending that money
>or investing it here.

you are right and you are wrong. people may not have *those* jobs but people still do have jobs. think on a large scale. im no expert so bare with me. if every corporation decided to send factories over seas then one may ask, what happens to those jobs here in the US? well, if the corporations yield higher profits because of the move then the economy has been strengthened. higher profits means more money put into banks. banks can then afford to loan out money to new investors or entrepenuers (sp?) who create jobs. if those corporations fail, then they wont have any money to put into banks or to invest in other companies. they can either seek a new loan, which may be turned down or given at a very high interest rate, or they can file chapter 11 which protects them against their debts. i wont get into how its possible for corporations to file protection from loans but it has to do with the federal reserve. so it is actually a good thing for corporations to go over seas as long as they will profit from it.

>it's kind of like educating kids from foreign countries in
>engineering, business, computers, etc (not that i mind), but
>ignoring our own college-bound kids. it's shooting yourself
>in the foot.

yea, but most of the work is remedial. people with college degrees shouldnt be making shoes, they should be designing them.

>i wonder what percentage of far eastern, indian, etc.
>students in those kinds of fields wind up going back home to
>use those skills.

good question. i guess that happens on the local level as well. here in pennsylvania we've had a hard time retaining college graduates to work in the state. i guess not enough jobs.


  

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LexM
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Wed Mar-19-03 08:00 AM

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45. "sounds too close to"
In response to Reply # 37
Wed Mar-19-03 08:02 AM

  

          

>you are right and you are wrong. people may not have *those*
>jobs but people still do have jobs. think on a large scale.
>im no expert so bare with me. if every corporation decided
>to send factories over seas then one may ask, what happens
>to those jobs here in the US? well, if the corporations
>yield higher profits because of the move then the economy
>has been strengthened. higher profits means more money put
>into banks. banks can then afford to loan out money to new
>investors or entrepenuers (sp?) who create jobs. if those
>corporations fail, then they wont have any money to put into
>banks or to invest in other companies. they can either seek
>a new loan, which may be turned down or given at a very high
>interest rate, or they can file chapter 11 which protects
>them against their debts. i wont get into how its possible
>for corporations to file protection from loans but it has to
>do with the federal reserve. so it is actually a good thing
>for corporations to go over seas as long as they will profit
>from it.

"trickle down", and we know that doesn't work well. corporations look out for self & higher levels first (w/ few exceptions). the majority, the "regular folks" get screwed. the best way to growth is to give people jobs & benefits, promote job security, and go from there. that helps property taxes which in turn helps schools, which makes more productive people....


>yea, but most of the work is remedial. people with college
>degrees shouldnt be making shoes, they should be designing
>them.

no, i didn't mean that. that's where i got off topic, in a sense.


>good question. i guess that happens on the local level as
>well. here in pennsylvania we've had a hard time retaining
>college graduates to work in the state. i guess not enough
>jobs.

there are jobs to be had and in certain fields, those are the people who have them overwhelmingly.

most of those students just use the u.s. degree for what it's worth, but always w/ the goal of going back home & improving their homeland. which is excellent. i'd do it too if i had the opportunity.

but too many american kids can't read, let alone make it to college...

_____________________________
peace.
wisdom.
sanity.
clarity.
justice.

www.poetsagainstthewar.org





~~~~
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foxnesn
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Wed Mar-19-03 01:57 PM

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59. "RE: sounds too close to"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

>"trickle down", and we know that doesn't work well.
>corporations look out for self & higher levels first (w/ few
>exceptions). the majority, the "regular folks" get screwed.
>the best way to growth is to give people jobs & benefits,
>promote job security, and go from there. that helps property
>taxes which in turn helps schools, which makes more
>productive people....

i hate to say it, but you've been brainwashed by the democrats. i dont have to explain but what happens is simple economic fact. if you dont already, start reading bloomberg.com and check out the economist online. both very good sites that hold down some strong information on the market.


  

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LexM
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Thu Mar-20-03 04:46 AM

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71. "not brainwashed at all"
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

especially not by any one political party.

but between school and outside reading i did learn about reaganomics and how that policy affected the economy.


_____________________________
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justice.

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Pinko_Panther
Member since Dec 11th 2002
11808 posts
Sun Mar-30-03 02:28 AM

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176. "RE: sounds too close to"
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

did you know that since the inception of NAFTA, because of large corporations moving their factories from the United States to Mexico, more than 400,000 American jobs were lost in the first year and a half alone?! Then to make matters worse, of those 400,000 who found employment again, on average, they were only able to find work at about 75% of what they were originally earning. Not to mention that the cost of living also keeps rising. Trickle down, Adam Smith, economics does NOT work! It was that kind of thinking that brought on the great depression early in the century and Keynesian economics had to be developed to patch up the holes of Smithian economics. I don't think either are any good because they are both capitalist.

********************************************
"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

  

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explizit
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Thu Mar-20-03 12:50 AM

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68. "RE: good question!"
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

>>yeah, but we don't *see* the money. the corporations/ceos
>>do. but not "us". americans don't have those jobs, they're
>>not getting paid the money, they're not spending that money
>>or investing it here.
>
>you are right and you are wrong. people may not have *those*
>jobs but people still do have jobs. think on a large scale.
>im no expert so bare with me. if every corporation decided
>to send factories over seas then one may ask, what happens
>to those jobs here in the US? well, if the corporations
>yield higher profits because of the move then the economy
>has been strengthened. higher profits means more money put
>into banks. banks can then afford to loan out money to new
>investors or entrepenuers (sp?) who create jobs. if those
>corporations fail, then they wont have any money to put into
>banks or to invest in other companies. they can either seek
>a new loan, which may be turned down or given at a very high
>interest rate, or they can file chapter 11 which protects
>them against their debts. i wont get into how its possible
>for corporations to file protection from loans but it has to
>do with the federal reserve. so it is actually a good thing
>for corporations to go over seas as long as they will profit
>from it.
>

Ya but what kind of jobs do these investors and entrepenuers create? Do they create jobs for those who lost their jobs over here? this isnt gauranteed. Certain corps. increase their profits by moving jobs over seas but all that does is increase the unemployment rates over here, hence negatively affecting the stock market. There are very few positives in moving jobs overseas. come on now.
>>it's kind of like educating kids from foreign countries in
>>engineering, business, computers, etc (not that i mind), but
>>ignoring our own college-bound kids. it's shooting yourself
>>in the foot.
>
>yea, but most of the work is remedial. people with college
>degrees shouldnt be making shoes, they should be designing
>them.
>
>>i wonder what percentage of far eastern, indian, etc.
>>students in those kinds of fields wind up going back home to
>>use those skills.
>
>good question. i guess that happens on the local level as
>well. here in pennsylvania we've had a hard time retaining
>college graduates to work in the state. i guess not enough
>jobs.

http://myspace.com/bambumusic

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http://www.individualsole.com/?p=5256

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGH3OuP9Sek

  

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foxnesn
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Thu Mar-20-03 03:43 AM

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69. "RE: good question!"
In response to Reply # 68


  

          

>Ya but what kind of jobs do these investors and entrepenuers
>create? Do they create jobs for those who lost their jobs
>over here? this isnt gauranteed. Certain corps. increase
>their profits by moving jobs over seas but all that does is
>increase the unemployment rates over here, hence negatively
>affecting the stock market. There are very few positives in
>moving jobs overseas. come on now.

they create NEW jobs. have you ever read an economics book? its pretty cut and dry.

  

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Castro
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Wed Mar-19-03 03:00 PM

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61. "More EURO proof..."
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

Now we know why we weren't supposed to see the Energy Summit report...this is a long article(s) but will break down why we are going to war...


BUSH'S DEEP REASONS FOR WAR ON IRAQ: OIL, PETRODOLLARS, AND THE OPEC EURO QUESTION

As the United States made preparations for war with Iraq, White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer, on 2/6/03, again denied to US journalists that the projected war had "anything to do with oil."

<1> He echoed Defense Minister Donald Rumsfeld, who on 11/14/02 told CBS News that "It has nothing to do with oil, literally nothing to do with oil."
Speaking to British MPs, Prime Minister Tony Blair was just as explicit: "Let me deal with the conspiracy theory idea that this is somehow to do with oil. There is no way whatever if oil were the issue that it would not be infinitely simpler to cut a deal with Saddam...." (London Times 1/15/03)

Nor did Bush's State of the Union Message, or Colin Powell's address to the United Nations Security Council, once mention the word "oil." Instead the talk was (in the president's words) of "Iraq's illegal weapons programs, its attempts to hide those weapons from inspectors, and its links to terrorist groups."
However our leaders are not being candid with us. Oil has been a major US concern about Iraq in internal and unpublicized documents, since the start of this Administration, and indeed earlier. As Michael Renner has written in Foreign Policy in Focus, February 14, 2003, "Washington's War on Iraq is the Lynchpin to Controlling Persian Gulf Oil."

But the need to dominate oil from Iraq is also deeply intertwined with the defense of the dollar. Its current strength is supported by OPEC's requirement (secured by a secret agreement between the US and Saudi Arabia) that all OPEC oil sales be denominated in dollars. This requirement is currently threatened by the desire of some OPEC countries to allow OPEC oil sales to be paid in euros.

The Internally Stated US Goal of Securing the Flow of Oil from the Middle East

As early as April 1997, a report from the James A. Baker Institute of Public Policy at Rice University addressed the problem of "energy security" for the United States, and noted that the US was increasingly threatened by oil shortages in the face of the inability of oil supplies to keep up with world demand. In particular the report addressed "The Threat of Iraq and Iran" to the free flow of oil out of the Middle East. It concluded that Saddam Hussein was still a threat to Middle Eastern security and still had the military capability to exercise force beyond Iraq's borders.

The Bush Administration returned to this theme as soon as it took office in 2001, by adopting, some say commissioning, a second report from the same Institute. (This Task Force Report was co-sponsored by the Council on Foreign Relations in New York, another group historically concerned about US access to overseas oil resources.)

As reported by the Scotland Sunday Herald (10/6/02),
"President Bush's Cabinet agreed in April 2001 that `Iraq remains a destabilising influence to the flow of oil to international markets from the Middle East' and because this is an unacceptable risk to the US `military intervention' is necessary.

"Vice-president Dick Cheney, who chairs the White House Energy Policy Development Group, commissioned a report on `energy security' from the Baker Institute for Public Policy, a think-tank set up by James Baker, the former US secretary of state under George Bush Snr.

"The report, Strategic Energy Policy Challenges For The 21st Century, concludes: `The United States remains a prisoner of its energy dilemma. Iraq remains a de-stabilising influence to ... the flow of oil to international markets from the Middle East. Saddam Hussein has also demonstrated a willingness to threaten to use the oil weapon and to use his own export programme to manipulate oil markets. Therefore the US should conduct an immediate policy review toward Iraq including military, energy, economic and political/ diplomatic assessments. `The United States should then develop an integrated strategy with key allies in Europe and Asia, and with key countries in the Middle East, to restate goals with respect to Iraqi policy and to restore a cohesive coalition of key allies.'

"Baker who delivered the recommendations to Cheney, the former chief executive of Texas oil firm Halliburton, was advised by Kenneth Lay, the disgraced former chief executive of Enron, the US energy giant which went bankrupt after carrying out massive accountancy fraud."



The Unstated US Goals of Increasing the Flow of Oil from the Middle East, and US Dominance of the Area

Behind the acknowledged concern about the "free flow" of Persian Gulf oil are other motives. Following the recommendations of the Task Force Report, the Bush administration wishes to increase international (which may well turn out to mean US) investment in the under-developed Iraq oilfields. On 1/16/03 the Wall Street Journal reported that officials from the White House, State Department, and Department of Defense have been meeting informally with executives from Halliburton, Schlumberger, ExxonMobil, ChevronTexaco and ConocoPhillips to plan the post-war expansion of oil production from Iraq (whose oilfields were largely held by US companies prior to their nationalization). The Journal story has since been denied by Administration officials; but, as the Guardian noted on 1/27/03, "It stretches credulity somewhat to imagine that the subject has never been broached."

<2>
It is worth pointing out that Saddam Hussein already has offered exploratory concessions (which remained inactive because of the UN sanctions) to France, China, Russia, Brazil, Italy, and Malaysia. If Saddam is replaced by a new client regime, it seems likely that these concessions will be superseded, although there are reports that the US has offered France, Russia and China a share of post-war Iraqi oil, as an inducement to get their support in the Security Council. <3> Last September former CIA Chief Woolsey threatened in the Washington Post (9/15/02) that the price for participation by France and Russia in the post-war Iraq oil bonanza should be their support for "regime change."

<4> It would not take much of such menacing talk from official sources to turn the Bush campaign against Iraq into a campaign against Europe (see Postscript).

Iraq's proven oil reserves are 113 billion barrels, the second largest in the world after Saudi Arabia, and eleven percent of the world's total. The total reserves could be 200 million barrels or more, all of it relatively easy and cheap to extract. Thus increasing Iraqi oil production will diminish the market pressure on oil-importing countries like the US. It will also weaken the power of OPEC to influence oil markets by decisions to restrict output. Indeed, were Iraqi oil production to expand to near its capacity, the quotas established by OPEC would cease to be honored in today's market.

<5>
But the US is not just interested in oil from Iraq, it is concerned to maintain political dominance over all the oil-producing countries of the region. Secretary of State Colin Powell gave a glimpse of US intentions when he told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on February 6 that success in the Iraq war "could fundamentally reshape that region in a powerful, positive way that will enhance U.S. interests." In conceding that it will be necessary to station US troops in occupied Iraq for the foreseeable future, the US is serving notice to Iran and to Saudi Arabia (both of which were once secure bases for US troops but are so no longer) that the US will reassert its presence as the dominant military power in the region.

The Unstated US Goal of Preserving Dollar Hegemony Over the
Global Oil Market

Dominance of Middle Eastern oil will mean in effect maintaining dollar hegemony over the world oil economy. Given its present strategies, the US is constrained to demand no less. As I explain in this extract from my book, Drugs, Oil, and War, the present value of the US dollar, unjustified on purely economic grounds, is maintained by political arrangements, one of the chief of which is to ensure that all OPEC oil purchases will continue to be denominated in US dollars. (This commitment of OPEC to dollar oil sales was secured in the 1970s by a secret agreement between the US and Saudi Arabia, before the two countries began to drift apart over Israel and other issues.)

The chief reason why dollars are more than pieces of green paper is that countries all over the world need them for purchases, principally of oil. This requires them in addition to maintain dollar reserves to protect their own currency; and these reserves, when invested, help maintain the current high levels of the US securities markets.

As Henry Liu has written vividly in the online Asian Times (4/11/02),

"World trade is now a game in which the US produces dollars and the rest of the world produces things that dollars can buy. The world's interlinked economies no longer trade to capture a comparative advantage; they compete in exports to capture needed dollars to service dollar-denominated foreign debts and to accumulate dollar reserves to sustain the exchange value of their domestic currencies. To prevent speculative and manipulative attacks on their currencies, the world's central banks must acquire and hold dollar reserves in corresponding amounts to their currencies in circulation. The higher the market pressure to devalue a particular currency, the more dollar reserves its central bank must hold. This creates a built-in support for a strong dollar that in turn forces the world's central banks to acquire and hold more dollar reserves, making it stronger. This phenomenon is known as dollar hegemony, which is created by the geopolitically constructed peculiarity that critical commodities, most notably oil, are denominated in dollars. Everyone accepts dollars because dollars can buy oil. The recycling of petro-dollars is the price the US has extracted from oil-producing countries for US tolerance of the oil-exporting cartel since 1973.

"By definition, dollar reserves must be invested in US assets, creating a capital-accounts surplus for the US economy. Even after a year of sharp correction, US stock valuation is still at a 25-year high and trading at a 56 percent premium compared with emerging markets."

But central bankers around the world do not expect either the US dollar or the US stock markets to sustain their current levels. As William Greider in The Nation (9/23/02) has pointed out:
"US economy's net foreign indebtedness--the accumulation of two decades of running larger and larger trade deficits--will reach nearly 25 percent of US GDP this year, or roughly $2.5 trillion. Fifteen years ago, it was zero. Before America's net balance of foreign assets turned negative, in 1988, the United States was a creditor nation itself, investing and lending vast capital to others, always more than it borrowed. Now the trend line looks most alarming. If the deficits persist around the current level of $400 billion a year or grow larger, the total US indebtedness should reach $3.5 trillion in three years or so. Within a decade, it would total 50 percent of GDP."

There is also a major potential threat to the overpriced dollar in Japan's unresolved deflationary crisis. As observers like Lawrence A. Joyce have commented, the dollar would take a major pummeling if the Japanese government (as seems quite possible) were suddenly required to fulfil its legal obligations to bail out failed Japanese banks (which could easily happen if a sustained scarcity of oil were to keep oil prices at $40 a barrel or higher):

"There is only one place where the Japanese government can get enough money to bail out its banking system: The Japanese government owns about 15% of our U.S. Treasury securities. And it would have to start selling them if it found itself facing a major banking crisis.

"That would send the already ailing dollar down even further. And the initiation of a sale of our Treasury securities by Japan, of course, would immediately trigger a worldwide stampede to do the same before the securities become worth only a fraction of what they were purchased for. At the same time, interest rates in the U.S. would immediately go through the roof."

Washington is of course aware of these problems, and believes that overwhelming military strength and the will to use it supply the answer, persuading or forcing other countries to support the dollar at its artificial level as the key to their own security. In an article entitled "Asia: the Military-Market Link," and published by the U.S. Naval Institute in January 2002, Professor Thomas Barnett of the US Naval War College, wrote: "We trade little pieces of paper (our currency, in the form of a trade deficit) for Asia's amazing array of products and services. We are smart enough to know this is a patently unfair deal unless we offer something of great value along with those little pieces of paper. That product is a strong US Pacific Fleet, which squares the transaction nicely."

There is some merit to this argument with respect to friendly countries like Japan, whose defense costs have been lowered by the US presence in Asia. But of course the Islamic countries of the world are less likely to appreciate the "great value" of a threatening US presence. Instead they are more likely to follow the example of Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad, and turn to the Islamic gold dinar as a way to diminish dollar hegemony in world markets and increase the power of Islamic nations to challenge US policies.

The United States has at present little reason to fear a challenge to the dollar from Malaysia. But Malaysia is an Islamic country; and the US has every reason to fear a similar challenge from the Islamic nations in OPEC, were they to force OPEC to cease OPEC oil sales in dollars, and denominate them instead in euros.

The Unstated US Goal of Preserving Dollar Hegemony Against

Competition from the Euro

As noted in a recent article by W. Clark, "The Real But Unspoken Reasons for the Iraq War", the OPEC underpinning for the US dollar has shown signs of erosion in recent years. Iraq was one of the first OPEC countries, in 2000, to convert its reserves from dollars to euros. At the time a commentator for Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty predicted that Saddam's political act "will cost Iraq millions in lost revenue." In fact Iraq has profited handsomely from the 17 percent gain in the value of the euro against the dollar in that time.

Other countries have gradually been climbing on to the euro bandwagon. An article in the Iran Financial News, 8/25/02, revealed that more than half of Iran's Forex Reserve Fund assets had been converted from dollars to euros. In 2002 China began diversifying its currency reserves away from dollars into euros. According to Business Week (2/17/03) Russia's Central Bank in the past year has doubled its euro holdings to 20 percent of its $48 billion foreign exchange reserves. And for a very good reason, according to its First Deputy Chairman Oleg Vyugin: "Returns on dollar instruments are very low now. Other currency instruments pay more."
Business Week continues:

`The story is the same across the globe. Money traders say that institutions as diverse as Bank of Canada, People's Bank of China, and Central Bank of Taiwan are giving more weight to the European currency. By the end of this year, they predict, the euro could account for 20% of global foreign currency reserves, which today amount to a cool $2.4 trillion. Little more than a year ago, the euro made up just 10%. "No one is saying that the euro's going to replace the dollar as the premier reserve currency," says Michael Klawitter, a currency strategist at WestLB Research in London. "But it will increase in importance for many central banks."...

`The shift to the euro has big implications for the foreign exchange markets and the U.S. and European economies. Currency specialists say the yawning U.S. current account deficit, now at 5%, is bound to drive the dollar down further, and the euro still higher, over the next two to four years. Although the greenback may stage a short-term recovery once the looming war with Iraq is over, predictions are that it will then continue its downward trend, and that central banks will play their part in the descent. "Even if central banks increase their euro holdings by just a few percent, it will have a major impact in the markets," says Klawitter. "We're talking many billions of dollars."'

If not deterred, OPEC could follow suit. Libya has been urging for some time that oil be priced in euros rather than dollars. Javad Yarjani, an Iranian senior OPEC official, told a European Union seminar in April 2002 that, despite the problems raised by such a conversion, "I believe that OPEC will not discount entirely the possibility of adopting euro pricing and payments in the future."

Meanwhile Hugo Chavez has been taking Venezuelan oil out of the petrodollar economy by bartering oil directly for commodities from thirteen other third world countries. Although this has not yet qualified Venezuela for official membership in Bush's "axis of evil," the heavy hand of the Bush Administration in the recent coup attempt against Chavez was only too obvious. (See " Observer, 4/21/02, for details about the roles of US officials Elliot Abrams, Otto Reich, and John Negroponte.)

<5> Conclusion: How Should the US Be Addressing These Real Problems? To conclude, the Bush administration is not threatening Iraq out of pique or whim. The recent policies of both parties have indeed made the US vulnerable to foreign oil and petrodollar pressures. But hopefully decent Americans will protest the notion that it is appropriate to rain missiles and bombs upon civilians of another country, who have had little or nothing to do with this crisis of America's own making.

Some in addition will continue to explore avenues whereby America's oil and financial vulnerabilities can be diminished without continuing down the road to Armageddon. These problems are serious, but economists have put forward proposals for diminishing them peacefully and multilaterally. With respect to oil, Ralph Nader has just written, "The demand is simple: Stop this war before it starts and immediately establish a sane national energy security strategy." In fact one key ingredient of such a strategy, restriction of demand, can be found in saner parts of the Baker Institute reports that the Bush administration has so far chosen to ignore.

But an energy strategy for the United States must be addressed in the larger context of an economic and financial restructuring of global institutions and currency flows. With respect to the more esoteric financial problems of the dollar, the economist and futurist Hazel Henderson has written that "My recommendations for reforming current international institutions, revitalizing the UN and expanding civic society are summarized in Beyond Globalization (1999). A more balanced world order must center on reforming global finance, taxing currency exchange and reducing the dollar's unsustainable role as the world's de facto reserve currency (which is destructive for all countries -- even the US itself). I favor a global reserve currency regime based on the parity of the US dollar and the euro. The fundamentals in the USA and the EU suggest that the G-8 has an opportunity to peg the dollar and the euro into a trading band. This, together with the new issue of SDR's . proposed by all the IMF country members, promoted by George Soros and opposed only by the USA, would lend to more stable currency markets."

Without endorsing these specific proposals, I wish to second two rather obvious principles:

1) The problems of global financial instability must be addressed. As George Soros, famed as the man who broke the British pound in 1992, wrote later in the Financial Times, "To argue that financial markets in general, and international lending in particular, need to be regulated is likely to outrage the financial community. Yet the evidence for just that is overwhelming."

2) A multilateral approach to these core problems is the only way to proceed. The US is strong enough to dominate the world militarily. Economically it is in decline, less and less competitive, and increasingly in debt. The Bush peoples' intention appears to be to override economic realities with military ones, as if there were no risk of economic retribution. They should be mindful of Britain's humiliating retreat from Suez in 1956, a retreat forced on it by the United States as a condition for propping up the failing British pound.
America's influence in the world has up to now been based largely on good will generated by its willingness to resolve matters multilaterally. This legacy of good will is being squandered recklessly, as US officials insult European leaders and steer NATO towards irreconcilable disagreement.
The assumption seems to be that America does not need Europe and can afford to break up an entente that has endured since World War II. The risks of such arrogance are explored in a separate Postscript.

FOOTNOTES

<1> Ari Fleischer Press Briefing of February 6, 2003:
Q Since you speak for the President, we have no access to him, can you categorically deny that the United States will take over the oil fields when we win this war? Which is apparently obvious and you're on your way and I don't think you doubt your victory.

Oil -- is it about oil?

MR. FLEISCHER: Helen, as I've told you many times, if this had anything to do with oil, the position of the United States would be to lift the sanctions so the oil could flow. This is not about that. This is about saving lives by protecting the American people....

Q There are reports that we've divided up the oil already, divvied it up with the Russians and French and so forth. Isn't that true?....

MR. FLEISCHER: No, there's no truth to that, that we would divide up the oil fields.

(Concerning Mr. Fleischer's second answer, see the next two footnotes -- PDS.)

For an exhaustive rebuttal of a similar statement by Ari Fleischer on 10/30/02, see Larry Chin, "The Deep Politics of Regime Removal in Iraq", onlinejournal.com.

<2> An extremely interesting news item last October in Alexander's oilandgas.com revealed that the US was planning not only for the post-war exploitation of Iraq's oil reserves, but for Iraq's relationship to OPEC as well:

"30-10-02 The US State Department has pushed back its planned meeting with Iraqi opposition leaders on exploiting Iraq's oil and gas reserves after a US military offensive removes Saddam Hussein from power to early December. According to a source at the State Department, all the desired participants are not yet available.

"The Bush administration wants to have a working group of 12 to 20 people focused on Iraqi oil and gas to be able to recommend to an interim government ways of restoring the petroleum sector following a military attack in order to increase oil exports to partially pay for a possible US military occupation government -- further fuelling the view that controlling Iraqi oil is at the heart of the Bush campaign to replace Hussein with a more compliant regime. (Emphasis added -- PDS)....

"According to the source, the working group will not only prepare recommendations for the rehabilitation of the Iraqi petroleum sector post-Hussein, but will address questions regarding the country's continued membership in OPEC and whether it should be allowed to produce as much as possible or be limited by an OPEC quota, and it will consider whether to honour contracts made between the Hussein government and foreign oil companies, including the $ 3.5 bn project to be carried out by Russian interests to redevelop Iraq's oilfields, which, along with numerous other development projects, has been thwarted by United Nations sanctions.

<3> "Oil firms wait as Iraq crisis unfolds" by Robert Collier, San Francisco Chronicle,9/29/02:
`Iraqi opposition leaders suggest that unless France, Russia and China support the U.S. line in the Security Council, their oil companies may find themselves blacklisted.

`"We will examine all the contracts that Saddam Hussein has made, and we will cancel all those that are not in the interest of the Iraqi people and will reopen bidding on them," said Faisal Qaragholi, operations officer of the Iraqi National Congress, the opposition coalition based in London that plays a central role in the American anti-Hussein strategy.
`Ahmed Chalabi, the INC leader, has gone even further, proposing the creation of consortium of American companies to develop Iraq's oil fields.'

<4> As the Asia Times reported on 10/21/02,
`The war of positioning for a possible post-Saddam Iraqi environment is getting more ruthless by the minute. American oil conglomerates are openly courting representatives of the Iraqi National Congress (INC), the umbrella opposition. The darling of Exxon Mobil and Chevron Texaco is Ahmed Chalabi, US vice President Dick Cheney's pal and major contender for the title of Iraq's number one opposition figure. Chalabi, the INC leader, has already stressed on the record that he favors the creation of a "US-led consortium to develop Iraqi oil fields. American companies will have a big shot at Iraqi oil."

`To widespread doubts about how a pro-American post-Saddam government would respect contracts signed with non-American oil giants, the INC has reassured all players - mostly Russian and European - that the new post-Saddam administration will honor all its PSAs.

`The Future of Iraq Group, a State Department task force, officially is not talking about oil - which sounds like a joke. And there's also no official confirmation that oil has been a key issue in the current hardcore Security Council negotiations between the US and Britain, on one side, and France, Russia and China on the other. But it is obviously not by historical accident that oil companies from these five permanent Security Council members are all positioning themselves for the post-Saddam environment.
`People like former CIA supremo James Woolsey are not even disguising Washington's plan to turn Iraq into an American protectorate with an Arab Hamid Karzai al-la Afghanistan eager to open the oil taps for American oil giants. Woolsey had been openly saying that if France and Russia contributed to "regime change", their oil companies would be able to "work together" with the new regime and with American companies. Otherwise, they would be left contemplating passing cargoes in the Gulf.'

<5> Note that the true issue here is not just access to Iraq oil, but control over it. As Michael Parenti reminds us, in 1998, when the UN allowed Iraq to increase its exports into an already over-supplied oil market, this was perceived as a threat to US interests:
`The San Francisco Chronicle (22 February 1998) headlined its story "IRAQ'S OIL POSES THREAT TO THE WEST." In fact, Iraqi crude poses no threat to "the West" only to Western oil investors. If Iraq were able to reenter the international oil market, the Chronicle reported, "it would devalue British North Sea oil, undermine American oil production and---much more important---it would destroy the huge profits which the United States stands to gain from its massive investment in Caucasian oil production, especially in Azerbaijan."

<5> In August 2000 Chavez met with Saddam Hussein in Baghdad, the first dead of state to visit him since the 1991 Gulf War. Chavez told the press later that "We spoke at length on how to boost the role of OPEC." This was part of an extended Chavez tour to bolster OPEC unity against US-led pressure to lower oil prices, then at nearly $30 a barrel.


------------------
One Hundred.

  

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foxnesn
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70. "its pretty simple!"
In response to Reply # 61


  

          

listen, the US is afraid of oil shortages. because of the embargo the US put on Iraq, in february 2003 the US imported a mere 300,000 barrels of oil from iraq. if they were really worried about an oil shortage the US could easily lift the embargo and flood the market with oil. and if the US really wanted control over the oil why didnt the US take control after the first gulf war?????????????????????????????????

  

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Castro
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72. "EURO not OIL...you missed the point"
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

Oil is a secondary concern here. The US does have ample supplies of oil, BUT, what is a concern is that right now, since the US does not use the gold standard to back its currency, the sale and purchase of oil worldwide is how the US supports its currency. The US dollar is the current official 'language' of the world economy. If the EURO became the official language, or at least the official language for the oil producing nations, then the US would no longer be able to just print money to buy things. That's basically what the US government does- if it wants something, it prints money and gets it. Because the US dollar is used for oil, other countries trade goods to the US for the privilege of using the US dollar to purchase...oil. Basically, if the EURO became the de facto currency used for oil, how would the US be able to maintain it's control of the world? The US needs oil, and it would be forced to purchase oil with Euros....since the US dollar is not backed by anything, and because the US basically owes other folks a few trillion dollars, how would the US be able to continue? It couldn't. The US economy would crash---if you look at how Enron was making its money, you have a micromodel of how the US government operates in the world markets. So Saddam changing Iraq over to the Euro constituted a trend that Bush and company could not let continue...if they did, the gas would be five dollars a gallon in the US by the end of 2004.

------------------
One Hundred.

  

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foxnesn
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81. "RE: EURO not OIL...you missed the point"
In response to Reply # 72


  

          

you obviously didnt read the previous posts between LexM and I and you must not have read the article Seenic posted which talked about what you said.

i know about the oil-dollar nexus, i posted something about it a couple weeks ago and only a few people replied. and i know how important it is to the US economy. given the circumstances the euro is in no position to take the reigns. #1 currently OPEC would make less money trading oil for euros rather than oil for dollars, and we know OPEC wants to make the most money possible so they will stay with the strongest currency. #2 ever since the US recession the Euro has been struggling to maintain stability. no one is going to invest in an unstable currency.

the bush administration has no reason to worry about OPEC switching to the euro. also, the US doesnt just print out money to pay for stuff. it can only print what is equal to the demand which controls inflation. also, a decrease in the value of dollar doesnt exactly hurt the economy. for a short time when the euro was more valuable the US economy actually strengthened. as a nation you dont always want to have the most valued currency because it makes it more difficult for other countries to buy your goods. the oil-dollar nexus does give the US a head start but losing it wont crush the economy.


  

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Castro
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92. "RE: EURO not OIL...you missed the point"
In response to Reply # 81


  

          

"#1 currently OPEC would make less money trading oil for euros rather than oil for dollars"

Iraq has made money off of the Euro's gain against the dollar since they switched....

------------------
One Hundred.

  

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foxnesn
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Fri Mar-21-03 03:39 AM

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104. "RE: EURO not OIL...you missed the point"
In response to Reply # 92


  

          

yea because of the embargo. life the embargo and the iraqs would immediately switch back to the dollar.

  

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2tone23
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Wed Mar-19-03 04:06 AM

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25. "RE: War Post- the meat & potatoes"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I thought this article was fairly realistic (read this morning as she prays for the phoenix of love to rise out of this mayham):


http://slate.msn.com/id/2080322/


"I do it for the health and I do it for the spirit; don't speak the lyric if you can't hear it..." Whitey Ford

"I do it for the health and I do it for the spirit; don't speak the lyric if you can't hear it..." Whitey Ford

  

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LexM
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27. "comic relief"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.markfiore.com/animation/dictator.html

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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foxnesn
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29. "hehe"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

nice breather

  

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SugarCane
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Wed Mar-19-03 04:56 AM

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30. "what i don't get is......"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

people who say, i don't support the war but if that's what bush is going to do i'll HAVE to support his decision. the hell you do! what kind of BS is that?

  

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LexM
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Wed Mar-19-03 05:04 AM

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32. "i know i wouldn't"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

support someone who couldn't present an argument.

and if you notice, dubya hasn't. it's always been someone else
powell
cheney (maybe... i dunno. u never see the bastard except on meet the press...)
rumsfield
etc.

he, the commander in chief, ain't said SHIT.

that should worry ANYONE.
_____________________________
peace.
wisdom.
sanity.
clarity.
justice.

www.poetsagainstthewar.org





~~~~
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LexM
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Wed Mar-19-03 05:49 AM

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36. "huh??? (no spanish troop participation)"
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Mar-19-03 06:25 AM

  

          

...

(*Editor's Note: This editor is gritting his teeth at the moment. Aznar was perfectly willing to defy overwhelming public opposition to war in Iraq within his own nation so he could help Mr. Bush paint a veneer of internationality over what is essentially a unilateral American attack on Iraq. He won't help with the fighting, though. No sir. - wrp)

Aznar Rules Out Spanish Troops in Iraq
Associated Press

Tuesday 18 March 2003

Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar on Tuesday ruled out sending Spanish combat troops to take part in a U.S.-led attack on Iraq but said he would deploy military personnel and equipment in a support capacity and offer warplanes to defend Turkey.

``Spain will not participate in any attack or offensive missions,'' Aznar told Parliament, ending weeks of speculation as to whether Spain would back up its fervent political support of the United States by putting troops in harm's way.

``As a result, there will not be any Spanish troops in the theater of operations,'' said Aznar, whose backing of Washington defies polls showing a vast majority of Spaniards opposed to war in Iraq even with U.N. backing.

Opposition parties and critics had demanded that Aznar clearly define whether Spain would participate in an attack on Iraq that now seems imminent.

Aznar took part in the Azores island summit Sunday that backed the call for early military action to disarm Iraq and oust Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein.

Spain had also joined the United States and Britain in co-sponsoring a doomed draft U.N. resolution seeking authorization for war to disarm Iraq.

Aznar's address to Parliament, the fourth on Iraq in as many weeks, was interrupted several times by opposition deputies.

As Aznar first stood at the podium, before he even opened his mouth, five United Left deputies raised a banner that read: ``War No, Aznar Resign.''

The premier told the lower chamber that Spain had no military commitments beyond those already covered by bilateral treaties with the United States.

He said its support to the United States and Britain would include a hospital vessel, a mine-clearing unit, a team of chemical detection experts, a frigate and an oil tanker vessel, with personnel totaling about 900 people.

If Iraq attacks neighboring Turkey, he said, Spain has offered NATO six F-18 warplanes to help defend that country, plus a Hercules C-130 refueling plane and a search and rescue helicopter.

The opposition jeered when Aznar said Spain would cooperate ``actively in humanitarian aid operations to civilians'' in response to a call from U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan.

Spain's opposition parties are united in opposing any war on Iraq without U.N. approval. ``This war will sow hate,'' Socialist opposition leader Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero said in his response to Aznar.

Referring to Aznar's offer to help in the reconstruction of Iraq, Zapatero asked, ``Why instead of offering reconstruction don't you stop the destruction?''




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http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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ahmsofunky
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Wed Mar-19-03 06:41 AM

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38. ""Yeah, we got your back...""
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

"WAY back!"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Aznar's like, "No, really, it's a good idea...for America." He's not totally stupid. He, um, wants to keep his job. Plus his economic ties are much closer with "Old Europe" than with America or "New Europe."

In sum: what an asshole.

<<<No that's not me.

"i love gay porn
those men suck a dick like it's the fountain of youth
it makes me want some" EurekaFish

  

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BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
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Wed Mar-19-03 07:31 AM

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42. "RE: "Yeah, we got your back...""
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

and China (Greeks for the Romans)

HAH

let's play ping pong ■

  

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LexM
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Wed Mar-19-03 07:23 AM

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41. "from michael moore:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php


Monday, March 17, 2003

A Letter from Michael Moore to George W. Bush on the Eve of War


George W. Bush
1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
Washington, DC


Dear Governor Bush:

So today is what you call "the moment of truth," the day that "France and the rest of world have to show their cards on the table." I'm glad to hear that this day has finally arrived. Because, I gotta tell ya, having survived 440 days of your lying and conniving, I wasn't sure if I could take much more. So I'm glad to hear that today is Truth Day, 'cause I got a few truths I would like to share with you:

1. There is virtually NO ONE in America (talk radio nutters and Fox News aside) who is gung-ho to go to war. Trust me on this one. Walk out of the White House and on to any street in America and try to find five people who are PASSIONATE about wanting to kill Iraqis. YOU WON'T FIND THEM! Why? 'Cause NO Iraqis have ever come here and killed any of us! No Iraqi has even threatened to do that. You see, this is how we average Americans think: If a certain so-and-so is not perceived as a threat to our lives, then, believe it or not, we don't want to kill him! Funny how that works!

2. The majority of Americans -- the ones who never elected you -- are not fooled by your weapons of mass distraction. We know what the real issues are that affect our daily lives -- and none of them begin with I or end in Q. Here's what threatens us: two and a half million jobs lost since you took office, the stock market having become a cruel joke, no one knowing if their retirement funds are going to be there, gas now costs almost two dollars -- the list goes on and on. Bombing Iraq will not make any of this go away. Only you need to go away for things to improve.

3. As Bill Maher said last week, how bad do you have to suck to lose a popularity contest with Saddam Hussein? The whole world is against you, Mr. Bush. Count your fellow Americans among them.

4. The Pope has said this war is wrong, that it is a SIN. The Pope! But even worse, the Dixie Chicks have now come out against you! How bad does it have to get before you realize that you are an army of one on this war? Of course, this is a war you personally won't have to fight. Just like when you went AWOL while the poor were shipped to Vietnam in your place.

5. Of the 535 members of Congress, only ONE (Sen. Johnson of South Dakota) has an enlisted son or daughter in the armed forces! If you really want to stand up for America, please send your twin daughters over to Kuwait right now and let them don their chemical warfare suits. And let's see every member of Congress with a child of military age also sacrifice their kids for this war effort. What's that you say? You don't THINK so? Well, hey, guess what -- we don't think so either!

6. Finally, we love France. Yes, they have pulled some royal screw-ups. Yes, some of them can be pretty damn annoying. But have you forgotten we wouldn't even have this country known as America if it weren't for the French? That it was their help in the Revolutionary War that won it for us? That our greatest thinkers and founding fathers -- Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, etc. -- spent many years in Paris where they refined the concepts that lead to our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution? That it was France who gave us our Statue of Liberty, a Frenchman who built the Chevrolet, and a pair of French brothers who invented the movies? And now they are doing what only a good friend can do -- tell you the truth about yourself, straight, no b.s. Quit pissing on the French and thank them for getting it right for once. You know, you really should have traveled more (like once) before you took over. Your ignorance of the world has not only made you look stupid, it has painted you into a corner you can't get out of.

Well, cheer up -- there IS good news. If you do go through with this war, more than likely it will be over soon because I'm guessing there aren't a lot of Iraqis willing to lay down their lives to protect Saddam Hussein. After you "win" the war, you will enjoy a huge bump in the popularity polls as everyone loves a winner -- and who doesn't like to see a good ass-whoopin' every now and then (especially when it 's some third world ass!). So try your best to ride this victory all the way to next year's election. Of course, that's still a long ways away, so we'll all get to have a good hardy-har-har while we watch the economy sink even further down the toilet!

But, hey, who knows -- maybe you'll find Osama a few days before the election! See, start thinking like THAT! Keep hope alive! Kill Iraqis -- they got our oil!!

Yours,

Michael Moore
www.michaelmoore.com

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
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http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
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Wed Mar-19-03 07:33 AM

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43. "RE: War Post- the meat & potatoes"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"the oil producing nations (and oil consuming nations who have a stake in seeing us go down because they realize they're not getting a piece of the pie if we "win") have a lot of power behind this." - Lex

Before WW2

the land conquering nations (and land consuming nations who have a stake in seeing us go down because they realize they're not getting a piece of the pie if we "win") have a lot of power behind this.

Before WW3

the oil producing nations (and oil consuming nations who have a stake in seeing us go down because they realize they're not getting a piece of the pie if we "win") have a lot of power behind this.


lol. halves and halves-nots all over again.





let's play ping pong ■

  

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Albeedat
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Wed Mar-19-03 07:43 AM

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44. "Papa Bush Screw Up Twelve Years...."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Ago....few people know that a few months before "Desert Storm' that Sadaam was being over ran by the Kurds of Northern Iraq. They had taken over some towns and cities working their way down to Baghdad. But Hussein asked for Papa Bush to allows his gunships(some provided by us and France)..to fight back the Kurds.So the Kurds were forced back up North in the mountains...were Sadaam used mustard gas to kill them. During the end of "Desert Storm"....a tank battalion were a bridge away from taking Baghdad....were the war was called off...strike two. So "Son of a Bush" needs to correct his Pops' screw ups.

A good deed is never lost: he who sows courtesy reaps friendship

  

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GraphStile
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Wed Mar-19-03 08:46 AM

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46. "Depressing survey results"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://msnbc.com/news/886713.asp

  

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TheSauce
Charter member
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Fri Mar-21-03 05:02 AM

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106. "Not Really"
In response to Reply # 46


          

The asked a very general question and got a very general answer: do you support US action against Iraq?

They didn't bother asking: Do you support US action without UN approval?

But what surprised me is that most people aren't buying Bush's BS that the war will decrease terrorism and increase mid east stability.

My favourite is that the concern for the lives of US Troops is four times the concern for Iraqi civilians, in fact more people are concern about the economic impact of rebuilding Iraq than they are about civilian deaths! Fuck's sake! People are more concerned about taxes than they are foreign lives.

And most Americans wonder why most people think that they value US lives more.

  

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ya Setshego
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Fri Mar-21-03 08:34 AM

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110. "Oh great"
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

so basically, the American people are saying, "It's a good idea to go to war, but in the long run, it will not solve any problems, and only make things worse for the US." Grrrrreat. That's REAL logical.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Oooo baby I like it raw. Oooo baby I like it RAAAW!(c)ODB- Shimmy Shimmy Ya

  

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Hamad
Member since Sep 05th 2002
46 posts
Wed Mar-19-03 08:57 AM

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47. "Al-Salaam Alayikum"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Since my post got DELETED,,I'm posting it here:

I tell ya,,it doesn't feel good when you see all these white folks while you're driving 2 work. I live in Qatar, the time now is 9:15 pm and the war may happens in 1:00 am. LOL I'm now in some Internet Cafe feeling absloutly "nothing", not scared nor happy just nothing lol and I see all of the kids play like there's nothing going on. The nighberhood is normal, everthing is smooth and dandy I guess,,,,I believe the next 24 hours will straight out everything.

It feels so strange,,,I'm supposed 2 be at home but instead I'm stuck in here and after that I'll invite my friends in my house. LOL This is not normal at all.


-----

Hamad,,,,,,,,the ever-so-thankful!

  

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MicheleQJ
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Wed Mar-19-03 09:17 AM

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48. "Weapons inspector: 'US gave us wrong data'"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Weapons inspector: 'US gave us wrong data'
from http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,917323,00.html

A UN weapons inspector who returned from Iraq yesterday said today that the US had given them wrong and misleading information about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.

Jorn Siljeholm, 48, a Norwegian scientist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, spent 100 days in Iraq as part of the UN inspections team.

He told the Associated Press that assertions by US officials, including the US secretary of state, Colin Powell, about Iraq's arsenal and its attempts to hide it, did not tally with his own findings.

"None of their hot tips were ever confirmed," he said, adding: "I don't know about a single decontamination truck that didn't turn out to be a fire engine or a water truck."


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keithdawg
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5593 posts
Wed Mar-19-03 10:14 AM

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54. "Americans are such fucking IDIOTS!"
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Mar-19-03 10:15 AM

  

          

As evidenced by this MSNBC survey

http://msnbc.com/news/886713.asp#survey

70% of the population supports the impending military invasion and war.

YET, a majority of poll respondents do not feel this war will increase stability in the Middle East.

YET, a majority of poll respondents do not feel this war will decrease worldwide terrorism.

AND YET, a majority of poll respondents feel that this war will INCREASE terrorism in America.

A majority of the population supports the war, yet perceive the repurcussions of the war as overwhelmingly negative.

So why do they support the war? 'Um, gosh lenny, dat dare prezadent is right, we must blow dem' up, for peace, hooray, peace!' --- Such is the persona of America

"If life is prison, then music is the yardtime"--Gift of Gab

"I've been a big genesis fan ... take the lyrics to "Land of Confusion," in which a singer addresses the problem of abusive political authority. This is laid down with a groove funkier and blacker than anything Prince or Michael Jackson-or any other black artist of recent years, for that matter-has come up with ... yet as danceable as the album is, it also has a stripped-down urgency that not even the overrated Bruce Springsteen can equal"--American Psycho

"I'm tryin' to read your poetry but I'm helpless like a rich man's child"--Bob Dylan

"The only thing you owe the past is wasted time"--Beck

Do yourself a favor,
Be your own savior.

Daniel Johnston

  

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LexM
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28342 posts
Wed Mar-19-03 10:24 AM

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55. "yeah 'cause"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

we're big & bad & if anybody tries to come over here well sir we'll just blow 'em to smithereens

*tears hair*

_____________________________
peace.
wisdom.
sanity.
clarity.
justice.

www.poetsagainstthewar.org





~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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LobbyFunkster
Charter member
899 posts
Wed Mar-19-03 11:08 AM

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56. "War and Star Wars"
In response to Reply # 0


          

So does all these events remind you of the time period just before Start Wars Episode IV: A New Hope? Think about it: AT the beginning of the movie when Darth Vader takes hold of the Rebel ship carrying Princess Leia and they take her hostage. Leia says "the Senate will have your head, Darth Vader, for taking a diplomatic ship hostage!". Then later, around the the meeting table with all the imperial generals, general Talken (I think that's his name) says "any remaining remnants of the senat and old republic have been eradicated. They are just a memory now. FEAR will keep the local republics in line."

Fast forward 2003, real world: The UN has lost it's power and the US government is saying they are no longer relevant, allowing the US to do whatever they want without the Security Council having any authority or power. FEAR will keep other countries in line (why oppose the US if you'll get blown up by Apache helicopters and stealth bombers?). No need for the UN anymore.

Will the US army turn into Storm Troopers? After all, at the end of Episode II, the cloe army (soon-to-be storm troopers) were fighting for good.

----------
Kebomusic Presents: The Soul Prototype
The Debut Digital EP - AVAILABLE NOW ON iTUNES!

www.kebomusic.com
www.twitter.com/kebomusic
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OGSolo
Member since Jan 04th 2003
5 posts
Mon Mar-24-03 04:12 AM

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136. "RE: War and Star Wars"
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

good post, though your precision in quoting star wars is a little lacking...

thinking about crushing the rebellion (al-qaeda would certainly sympathize). is it all a matter of perspective? or are there differences (beyond one being fiction and one being real life) that clearly draw a line between them? actually, from what little i have heard about bin laden and company, they seem to paint themselves in the same sort of legends as the "rebellion" and other idealogs.

i don`t think that is coincidence, as george lucas heavily researched the ideas of myth in writing his stories. to attract followers, bin laden has drawn on the classic myth of a wronged people that begin a great struggle on the way to glory. reality would suggest that the number of people who would benefit from his ideas are few, and his numbers as of now are not significant enough to overthrow the world order.

that being said, the bush/emporer/tarkin vibe is a strong one. the emporer`s idea was that the disorder was destructive and that by consolidating power, order and safety would be restored. but we know what power leads to, and, by bullying others, we sometimes get strong responses.

two years ago, i couldn`t imagine the idea of the american empire ending. maybe i have just grown up some, but it all seems much more fragile now. may the force be with us (not "decisive force," but the guiding light...)


  

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MicheleQJ
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5380 posts
Wed Mar-19-03 11:52 AM

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57. "long and VERY thorough PNAC/policy article"
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Mar-19-03 11:53 AM

          

just posting the link - read!

"This war is brought to you by ... "
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EC20Ak07.html

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http://www.last.fm/music/Alluswe

  

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MicheleQJ
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Wed Mar-19-03 12:06 PM

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58. "article on news script approval"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Guess who will be calling the shots at CNN
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1035778494204&call_pageid=968332188854&col=968350060724

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http://www.last.fm/user/micheleqj/
http://myspace.com/alluswe
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http://www.last.fm/music/Alluswe

  

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BASicEleMENT
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91 posts
Wed Mar-19-03 02:37 PM

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60. "RE: article on news script approval"
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

I liked how Michael opened up his adress with GOVENOR Bush ah how I love this man.

...................
alright children back to work in the factory recess is over

  

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bshelly
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71730 posts
Wed Mar-19-03 04:58 PM

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62. "operation "shock and awe?""
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

OPERATION "SHOCK AND AWE?!?!?!?!?!?"

Oh my Lord please help us.

----
bshelly

"You (Fisher) could get fired, Les Snead could get fired, Kevin Demoff could get fired, but I will always be Eric Dickerson.” (c) The God

  

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Native2000
Charter member
1004 posts
Thu Mar-20-03 06:48 AM

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75. "RE: operation "shock and awe?""
In response to Reply # 62


          


The plan to drop as many bombs on Iraq in the first 48 hours of the war as were dropped in the entire 1991 Gulf War is designed to smash the regime's power centers and demonstrate to the Iraqi military that the regime they're deployed to defend has already ceased functioning.

peace

Mahogany




the possibilities are endless...

Life is but a dream.

There are no answers, only choices.

I do not think, if one is a writer, that one escapes it by trying to become something else. One does not become something else: one becomes nothing

  

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Quest4Knowledge
Member since Jun 20th 2002
2797 posts
Wed Mar-19-03 06:37 PM

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63. "WAR HAS BEGUN!!!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

n/m



---
In memory of my sig..

  

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Zorasmoon
Member since Aug 30th 2002
37997 posts
Wed Mar-19-03 06:43 PM

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64. "let us NOT forget that"
In response to Reply # 63


  

          

it is in no way "contained" war is war and US is fair game (ie. 911)

SIGs OF THE MONTH:

I co-sign so much, I wonder if my credit is f--ked --ich/moi

*****************************

"For some time now, the inequalities that are embedded into the American system have bothered me. As they are becoming progressively worse and it is clear that the government's priorities are not on bettering the quality of life for all of its people, but rather on expanding its own power, I cannot, in good conscience, salute the flag,'' Toni
Smith, college basketball player

http://espn.go.com/ncw/news/2003/0222/1512839.html


*********************************************************
Recommended reading:

******Parable of the Sower- by Octavia Butler*******
Story about a hyper-empath who becomes the founder of a humanist cult created to transform the destiny of humankind

******The spirit of Terrorism- Jean Baudrillard*******
A MUST read for every thinking being
online copy @
http://awake.sparklehouse.com/downloads/papers/baud_terr.html


http://www.youtube.com/user/kimmayluv

  

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Quest4Knowledge
Member since Jun 20th 2002
2797 posts
Wed Mar-19-03 06:58 PM

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65. "RE: let us NOT forget that"
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

>it is in no way "contained" war is war and US is fair game
>(ie. 911)

i feel you. but to be fair i'd have to say that (by Intl standards) 911 was purely a terrorist because it targeted civilians only and not military targets.. on behalf of a political group and not a soverign nation.

it would only work (as far as the UN, intl community, and war crimimology goes) if iraqi troops on behalf of that govt. somehow made it over here and attacked military or governmental targets in uniform.







Peace and Love
-Ren



---
In memory of my sig..

  

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foxnesn
Charter member
5240 posts
Thu Mar-20-03 12:10 AM

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67. "WOO!!!!"
In response to Reply # 63


  

          

n/m

  

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keithdawg
Charter member
5593 posts
Thu Mar-20-03 05:48 AM

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73. "What kind of sick fuck cheers for war?"
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

"If life is prison, then music is the yardtime"--Gift of Gab

"I've been a big genesis fan ... take the lyrics to "Land of Confusion," in which a singer addresses the problem of abusive political authority. This is laid down with a groove funkier and blacker than anything Prince or Michael Jackson-or any other black artist of recent years, for that matter-has come up with ... yet as danceable as the album is, it also has a stripped-down urgency that not even the overrated Bruce Springsteen can equal"--American Psycho

"I'm tryin' to read your poetry but I'm helpless like a rich man's child"--Bob Dylan

"The only thing you owe the past is wasted time"--Beck

Do yourself a favor,
Be your own savior.

Daniel Johnston

  

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foxnesn
Charter member
5240 posts
Thu Mar-20-03 08:53 AM

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80. "ahahahahahah!!!!!"
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

n/m

  

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takinthecoltrane
Member since Oct 27th 2002
1958 posts
Thu Mar-20-03 03:16 PM

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91. "In all seriousness, it's not a funny or happy thing..."
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

Whether or not you're pro or anti war I don't think this is any time to be celebrating. People are dying over there.

"There's a lot you can do with a giant four foot dried, curling, boomerang seed pod from the Botang Tree that grows only in Indonesia."
-Tom Waits

"It's not about a salary it's all about reality."
-KRS-One

"Me being wack is like naps on Kojack."
-RZA

"The revolution will not be apologized for."
-Aesop Rock

"Came to save the game like a memory card."
-MF Doom

  

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keithdawg
Charter member
5593 posts
Thu Mar-20-03 04:40 PM

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94. "Word ..."
In response to Reply # 91


  

          

this cat is heartless clown.

"If life is prison, then music is the yardtime"--Gift of Gab

"I've been a big genesis fan ... take the lyrics to "Land of Confusion," in which a singer addresses the problem of abusive political authority. This is laid down with a groove funkier and blacker than anything Prince or Michael Jackson-or any other black artist of recent years, for that matter-has come up with ... yet as danceable as the album is, it also has a stripped-down urgency that not even the overrated Bruce Springsteen can equal"--American Psycho

"I'm tryin' to read your poetry but I'm helpless like a rich man's child"--Bob Dylan

"The only thing you owe the past is wasted time"--Beck

Do yourself a favor,
Be your own savior.

Daniel Johnston

  

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TheSauce
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1721 posts
Fri Mar-21-03 05:03 AM

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107. "What an idiot"
In response to Reply # 80


          

It's always those who know least about war who ENJOY it the most. I guarantee there's not a veteran alive who's actually happy that there's a war going on.

  

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mcdeezjawns
Charter member
26056 posts
Wed Mar-19-03 08:44 PM

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66. "CIA Had him"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

The CIA apparently had a bead on Saddam, but they "blew it"(wink wink nudge nudge)
Peace

  

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MicheleQJ
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5380 posts
Thu Mar-20-03 06:46 AM

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74. "Are we this stupid??"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Does this not read as our excuse for using chemical weapons?
http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/archive/20-3-19103-0-39-29.html
Saddam to hit own people in chemical atrocities
Propaganda campaign will put the blame on coalition troops, writes DEBORAH SUMMERS and BILLY BRIGGS
SADDAM Hussein is planning to use chemical weapons against his own people and blame the atrocities on coalition troops, British defence sources claimed yesterday.

It is also believed the Iraqi dictator has obtained US army uniforms on the black market to stage illegal civilian attacks.

The source said Saddam was expected to wage a sinister campaign of propaganda to try to convince the world Britain and America were responsible for carrying out war crimes against the Iraqi population.

Defence sources claim to have seen evidence that Saddam was planning to use chemical weapons on his own population, such as the Kurds in the north or the Shias in the south, and around the suburbs of Baghdad.

"There is evidence that collectively suggests that is an option and is one of the things being planned," one source said.

"There will undoubtedly be an emphasis on civilian casualties and claims of chemical attacks. That may be reinforced by Saddam's own actions."

The sources acknowledged it was a "big step" to move from planning such measures to actually carrying them out. It is also feared Saddam could poison water supplies to kill his own people before he is driven from power.

It is thought another technique the Iraqis may try is setting alight oil-filled trenches surrounding the main cities and then trying to blame the resulting smoke pall on British and US bombing.

They may also try to claim that old war damage dating back to previous conflicts - particularly around the southern city of Basra - is the result of fresh coalition attacks.

Yesterday, there were also reports that chemical warheads had been deployed to Iraqi forward units, and it emerged that Ali Hassan al-Majid, Saddam's first cousin also known as Chemical Ali, is commanding the southern sector facing US and British troops in Kuwait.

Al-Majid is also referred to as the butcher of the Kurds for ordering chemical attacks during the genocidal Anfal campaign in northern Iraq in 1987 and 1988.

Specialised American teams in mobile laboratories will begin searching Iraq for weapons of mass destruction.

The Pentagon has deployed new tactical units, called mobile exploitation teams, to find and survey at least 600 sites in Iraq that are considered most likely to be hiding prohibited weapons.

In addition, US officials said the military was making plans to locate and interview hundreds of Iraqi scientists who worked on germ, chemical and nuclear-related projects to seek their help in disarming Iraq.

The British sources said they believed the Iraqi propaganda campaign would be aimed at influencing nations like France, Russia, and China, which are seen as the "easier ones" by Saddam.

The Iraqi leader was said to be a regular viewer of CNN and the Arabic al-Jazeera satellite station, and to understand what "played well" both in the Arab world and the wider international community.

At the same time, the sources stressed that British and US forces would adhere strictly to the international Law of Armed Combat (LOAC) in selecting targets for aerial attack.

Under that law, attacks on civilian targets, or attacks which cannot discriminate between civilian and military targets - such as carpet bombing - are outlawed.

It does permit attacks on military targets which could result in "incidental" civilian casualties.

In such circumstances, the principle of proportionality must apply and the "expected harm" must not be "excessive" when set against the military advantage anticipated from the attack.

The sources said specialist "targeteers" would look at such situations to determine the best method of attack to minimise or avoid civilian casualties.

Military or civilian advisers would be available at every stage of the command process to help assess whether a particular attack was legal.

The law also contains provisions for the protection of cultural, historic and religious sites as well as imposing restrictions on attacks on targets which are essential to the survival of the population, such as water sources and foodstuffs.

The sources said that British and US operations would have to take account of the LOAC, even if the Iraqis broke international law by using human shields to protect targets or hiding military materials in religious buildings such as mosques.

"I would say the argument would have to very strong that there was a military advantage to attack equipment that was hidden in a mosque," one source said.


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http://www.last.fm/music/Alluswe

  

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MicheleQJ
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5380 posts
Thu Mar-20-03 07:17 AM

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76. "America's $400bn war bill"
In response to Reply # 0


          

http://www.guardian.co.uk/economicdispatch/story/0,12498,918085,00.html

America's $400bn war bill

The US is spending more on this war than it raises in taxes, paving the way for a nasty surprise for its taxpayers, writes Randeep Ramesh

Thursday March 20, 2003

War costs, but it is unclear who will pick up the tab. George Bush is not financing this campaign through taxation. Instead the president is cutting taxes - sending a welfare cheque to the wealthy - and raising military spending. The slowdown in the American economy has seen many states, who have to balance their budgets, cut back on social spending. The White House made it clear that there would be no federal bail out for these programmes. The president is reheating Reaganomics - cutting back on welfare, overcompensating with defence spending and offering big tax cuts to the rich at the expense of the poor.
Mr Bush's strategy is risky, if not reckless. A $1.5 trillion dollar tax cut over a decade is by anyone's estimation a large sum even before the cost of a war against Iraq and its aftermath are added onto it. Thoughtful Republicans like John McCain have asked for the cuts to be delayed until "the administration has a better understanding of the costs of war and peace."

In the last century, the cold war ended when the wall came down. In the new millennium, a hot one has begun. But the Soviet Union was a giant adversary. Iraq is a bomb-blasted state crippled by sanctions. Its military budget barely tops $1bn. America's, by contrast, is $400bn. As the Bush administration makes clear Saddam is just the start: Iran, North Korea are next and others will follow.

To finance the new wars, the White House is spending more than it collects in taxes. The result is budget deficits. More government debt will push up long term interest rates - which is bad for growth. Despite the Bush White House's unilateralism, America relies on the rest of the world to finance its deficits. The rest of the world was happy to do so when the US economy was strong, but investors' cash might go elsewhere if America no longer looks as if it is booming. America borrows hundreds of millions of dollars from the rest of the world each day to cover its savings gap. The Bush plan envisages an even bigger hole in the coming years, but will the rest of the world want to lend more and more cash, and if so at what cost?

The drip, drip of bad financial news and poor economic figures out of Wall St and Washington has already unsettled nerves. The internet bubble has burst and America's economy looks a little more ordinary again. Its hi-tech sector - once the country's biggest employer - now has fewer staff than the distinctly old-fashioned food products and transportation equipment manufacturing sectors. What if investors rush out of the dollar and dollar assets. The result is that the greenback weakens: it has already fallen by more than 10% in the past year. Exporters might like it, but a cheaper dollar will not see America return to trade surpluses. Instead it may fuel inflation - a worry in any war where oil is an issue.

Mr Bush will then be left with rising interest rates and more expensive imports. Should Mr Bush continue in office, he might end up like his father and start raising taxes to reassure capital markets that the US was acting to reduce its borrowings.

Seen in this context, the president's trillion dollar tax cut could end up as a political record: managing the greatest happiness possible for the smallest number of people. Perhaps worst is that the president's fiscal plan is a piece of bad politics masquerading as good economics. The administration aims to wage war and is buying more even arms for the most powerful fighting force the world has ever seen.

The increase in the defence department alone matches what the world spends on international aid every year. Ominously Mr Bush has pushed through the largest rises on weapons since Ronald Reagan faced down the Evil Empire of the Soviet Union in 1982. Then Washington had NATO and others willing to shoulder costs. In the last Gulf war, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Japan and Germany shared most of the $60bn costs of the conflict. This time the coalition of the willing does not have such large pockets. In fact the United States is trying to buy support with billion dollar sops.

In the end, the American public will end up paying for war. Unfortunately they have not been told how just large the bill could be.





http://myspace.com/139003080
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tivo15
Member since Mar 06th 2003
8 posts
Thu Mar-20-03 08:08 AM

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78. "RE: U.S. brainwashed?"
In response to Reply # 76


          

To this day, our government has yet to prove a solid link between Iraq and 9/11. However, they have convinced that this attack on Iraq is part of the "War on Terror" (look at Fox News emphasizing this). When the citizenry hears this propaganda enough, they begin to believe it. You may not want to believe it, but the majority of this country is VERY ignorant (I must be unpatriotic for saying that). Polls show that over 50% of Americans believe Sadaam was behind 9/11, and 70% believe most of the hijackers were from Iraq. Why would they think this? Do they read? It's the bombardment of this Administration linking Iraq to terrorism. If that's not overall ignorance, please tell me what is. It's no wonder that the majority of the U.S. is now for this war. Our government has been publicly seeking it since 9/11. Who knows how long they've been seeking it privately?

"At the risk of seeming ridiculous, let me say that the true revolutionary is guided by a great feeling of love." -- Che Guevara

  

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Monique
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Fri Mar-21-03 10:03 AM

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114. "RE: U.S. brainwashed?"
In response to Reply # 78
Fri Mar-21-03 10:47 AM

  

          

>now for this war. Our government has been publicly seeking
>it since 9/11. Who knows how long they've been seeking it
>privately?

SINCE-The failure of The Gulf War 1.If it was successful,we would not be in Iraq now.

SINCE-"HE TRIED TO KILL MY DADDY".


***********************************************************
NELLY: I'm Humble In Life Taking Nothing For Granted

AFRICA: www.bbcnews.com

THE BROKER: John Grisham

  

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Marauder21
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Thu Mar-20-03 08:03 AM

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77. "Damn"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Now that it's starting, I'm just hoping for our troops to finish this as soon as possible and get home. I hope this can be done with a minimal use of ground troops, and that everyone over there can come home soon. We miss you. That is all.

------

12 play and 12 planets are enlighten for all the Aliens to Party and free those on the Sex Planet-maxxx

XBL: trkc21
Twitter: @tyrcasey

  

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DeRayeMustafa
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Thu Mar-20-03 09:32 AM

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83. "Co sign!"
In response to Reply # 77


          

{}--------------------------------{}-------------------------{}
"I am the Lord thy God...Thou shalt have no other Gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in Heaven above what is in the Earth beneath, or that is in the water under the Earth; Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them." (Exodus 20:2-5)

"My people unite and let's all get down. We got to have what?! Love, peace and understanding!"-The Mighty Mos

{}--------------------------------{}-------------------------{}

www.ihatemtv.com


www.sexualchocolateandthewhiteboys.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(+)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, neither shall the children be put to death for their Fathers. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin." (Deuteronomy 24:16)

{}--------------------------------(*)-------------------------{}
...but I ain't one to gossip, so you didn't hear it from me!

http://www.myspace.com/lecarlos
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/sexual

  

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Marauder21
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Thu Mar-20-03 11:43 AM

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86. "RE: Co sign!"
In response to Reply # 83


  

          

Haven't seen you in a while, DeRaye. Where ya been at?

------

12 play and 12 planets are enlighten for all the Aliens to Party and free those on the Sex Planet-maxxx

XBL: trkc21
Twitter: @tyrcasey

  

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DeRayeMustafa
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Tue Mar-25-03 09:11 AM

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153. "Lurkin' more than anything"
In response to Reply # 86


          

plus I haven't been online much, but I'm in here every once and a while. Layin' low I spose. How you doin' in these crazy times?
{}--------------------------------{}-------------------------{}

"Captured, kidnapped and stolen from different places. Separated, bound and taken to different places. Didn't care t see the tears on our sad faces. Terrified and horrified we were. Life was dark, and darkness was all we saw, the darkness of our skin and the dark and musty interior of the slave ship where we lay side by side in our hundreds, wondering where fate is taking us. Four 4 centruries life was bitter and bitterness was life but, behold! The dawn of dark has finally come and the shackles that bound my ankles, my hands and my neck for four hundred years has been broken, my lips, my tongue and teeth can now move in unison and mumble a few words; Words of anger, spite and hatred, but yet words of wisdom. I, a true Mandika, reduced to bits and silenced by the power of the gun and whip. Death and brutality became synonymous with the negro. Africa cried for her children, her children longed fo Africa but Africa was too far away to lend a hand. I look into the sky and I realized I am four hundred years behind time. It's a long way to go but though the road is dark and long, I promise to stay black and strong." -Copyright 2001 Uche Iroegbu

(I don't have his verbal or written permission to post this, but it's too beautiful not to!)

"The oil in Iraq belongs to the Iraqi people." -President Bush's best joke yet!

http://www.ihatemtv.com
or
http://www.ihatemtv.org

http://www.sexualchocolateandthewhiteboys.com



{}--------------------------------(*)-------------------------{}
...but I ain't one to gossip, so you didn't hear it from me!

http://www.myspace.com/lecarlos
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/sexual

  

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Ross
Member since Mar 20th 2003
4 posts
Thu Mar-20-03 08:51 AM

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79. "is bush forrest gump in a suit?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

ok, we've heard plenty of stuff about george not being smart... ever seen the forrest gump movie. believe me - they're one and the same...

http://www.ammocity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=107&highlight=#107


live simply so that others
may simply live..

  

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DeRayeMustafa
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Thu Mar-20-03 09:30 AM

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82. "This War=Bullshit"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Bush has been bullshittin' us and the rest of the world during this whole thing, Saddam has been bullshittin' Bush and the rest of the world the whole time. Its as simple as that. Money hungry muthaphucka's who use any means neccesarry to get loot and perserve they're place in power. Like someone said a while ago, let these two settle the shit between them. But now its too late.

As we enter this stage of the US/Iraqi dispute many US citizens will not come home and many more Iraqi's will be killed. (But we'll only be told of maybe half of the casualty #) No matter what this will not be a sweet, short and simple war. As of last night at least a half a million people now have a refueled fire of anger burning for the US, and we are even more so vulnerable to terrorist attacks. I'm not going on any facts,I'm just bullshittin', but I'm sure we are all aware of the possible danger that lies ahead for us all. This shit is really stupid, but I suppose Saddam is THAT much of a threat huh?! And I guess America is SUCH a freedom loving country that it is not only our duty, but our god given right to liberate every country from tyranical rulers with weapons of mass destruction, right?

If I sound the least bit sarcastic then my point has gotten across. I'm against the war, but there really ain't much I can do about it, so I'll just sit back and watch my government fuck up and you blind ass, ignoramouses support wrong doing at its best. I think North Korea is a more serious threat, but they're not an Arab state, so I guess that pushes them a little further down the importance scale of fighting terrorist. I close this with one question. A question that no one seems to be asking or just simply dancing around. As one of the biggest providers, harbourers and users of WMD, what right do we have to say if someone can have them or not? Not to say that I want Saddam to have chemical, nuclear or biohazardist weapons, but really, should we practice what we preach? Or are we just feeling guilty because we put the mutha' phucka' in power in the first place and GAVE him WMD?!
{}--------------------------------{}-------------------------{}
"I am the Lord thy God...Thou shalt have no other Gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in Heaven above what is in the Earth beneath, or that is in the water under the Earth; Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them." (Exodus 20:2-5)

"My people unite and let's all get down. We got to have what?! Love, peace and understanding!"-The Mighty Mos

{}--------------------------------{}-------------------------{}

www.ihatemtv.com


www.sexualchocolateandthewhiteboys.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(+)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, neither shall the children be put to death for their Fathers. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin." (Deuteronomy 24:16)

{}--------------------------------(*)-------------------------{}
...but I ain't one to gossip, so you didn't hear it from me!

http://www.myspace.com/lecarlos
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/sexual

  

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LexM
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Thu Mar-20-03 09:41 AM

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84. "oh no....(iraqis detained)"
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Mar-20-03 09:41 AM

  

          

http://www.msnbc.com/news/886959_asp.htm


~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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Sampaguita
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Thu Mar-20-03 03:14 PM

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90. "RE: Thanks LexM"
In response to Reply # 84


          

I was just listening to KPFK...they mentioned this...it's really ill. They're coming to folks' homes and sometimes at work...Out here in Cali, there are many of those old camps still standing-the ones used for the Japanese Internment...Then there's also this one cat who did a documentary(50 min.) covering a discussion with Youth in Baghdad *sorry, can't remember his name right now* but none of the major networks will allow him to view this DISCUSSION---he's up there in status though like Jennings & them...(not a surprise) so he will have it on FreeSpeechTV...

Peace & One Love
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synonomous
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3405 posts
Sat Mar-22-03 05:16 PM

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129. "RE: oh no....(iraqis detained)"
In response to Reply # 84


  

          

link isn't working anymore. do you have it in your history, an article title or anything?

you could dream a little dream or you could live a little dream i'd rather live it, cuz dreamers always chase but never get it.

http://www.phishhook.com/lists/okplayer who wants to trade?
aim: okplayer greg
email: wtc41@yahoo.com

fill up your mind with all it can know
don't forget that your body will let it all go



aim: okplayer greg

  

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LexM
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28342 posts
Thu Mar-20-03 09:54 AM

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85. "we who are about to die salute you"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://blackcommentator.com/34/34_3_guest_commentators.html

Hail and Salaam to the Coalition of the Willing, to your Leaders, to your Senators, and to your Citizens !

We, the Citizens of Iraq, are gathered here for your entertainment in the first 21st Century media circus, to celebrate once again the tradition inaugurated by your forefathers during the time of the Roman Empire - an empire that your current Leader aspires to emulate.

"We who are about to die salute you" was the phrase traditionally used by those about to die in the gladiatorial circus arenas of that time. Now millions of you can enjoy the slaughter through the technology with which it is effected. But it remains appropriate that we salute you with those same words - in the language of that now fallen Empire: Nos Morituri Te Salutamus !

We salute you...

for the skills and training of your impeccable beasts of war - which your civilization is about to unleash upon us in this arena
for your courage in seeking to ensure that we disarm before unleashing your long intended attack on us - history has few examples of great armies requiring that their opponents lay down their weapons before a battle
for the conscientious application of your highest moral and ethical values to justify your need to kill us - and for sincerely believing that our deaths will be for the highest cause and that the price will be worth paying
for praying for guidance so assiduously to the God whom as yet you know not how to share with ours - may your God truly bless you for your sacrificial use of us to increase your understanding
for your God-given trust, and lack of doubt, that you have a historical mission to safeguard civilization - including our own, even though it is so distant from yours in many ways

for endangering your own souls in the higher scheme of things by taking into your hands an understanding of God's will, guided by your Leader's spiritual advisors - in dying we pray that you have made the right choice
for the sacrifice of your own soldiers abroad in ensuring our salvation - especially given the probability that most will die from friendly fire or suffer for years from radiation-related illnesses associated with the use of the depleted uranium missiles you intend to use
for the honor you do us in selecting us as a living sacrifice to your God - we hope that shedding our heart's blood will nourish new insights for humanity's future as believed by cultures of the past
for your principled rejection of any need to understand our culture, our communities and our language, and your conviction that you can export your democratic values to displace ours - and that we desire this wholeheartedly to affirm our cultural identity
for your uncanny ability to recognize our country and our Leader as embodying the greatest evil in our region - when our paltry weapons and skills are acknowledged to be insignificant in comparison with some of our neighbors, whose ability to systematically abuse their minorities, flaunting the will of the international community, exceeds ours by far
for your diplomatic ability to assemble a "Coalition of the Willing" - we trust that they will be paid off as promised, now that they can no longer confidently appeal any contractual breach within the framework of the international law that you have undermined in order to kill us
for your superior insight in recognizing the desirability of molding our cultures and institutions in your image - even while you are forced by the importance of your mission to neglect the many intractable challenges that are becoming so powerfully evident in your own way of life
for your respectful observance of historical pattern in engaging once again in the heroic endeavor in which your forefathers engaged over several centuries long ago - recognizing that neither of our peoples seem to have learned much of consequence since then
for your undeclared efforts as Christians to reform and modernize our Muslim societies and culture - although we wonder at the relevance of these efforts given the increasing difficulties you have in sustaining the qualities of life and authenticity in your modern cultures
for mobilizing an honorable core group of former Christian crusading nations to lead a new crusade to liberate and occupy our Muslim region as did your forefathers - the Franks - in the time of the earlier crusades
for the historically profound symbolic gesture in appointing a General Franks to conquer and subsequently rule our country on this occasion
for the conviction of your expert advisors in the efficacy of direct action in killing us - and avoiding any wasteful investment in the futile hope that those holding radically opposed views could ever dialogue fruitfully, other than on your terms
for the wisdom of your advisors, in their networks of excellence and think tanks, in choosing such a simple method to resolve a complex problem of humanity - having learned so well from their past failures in effectively addressing the issues of poverty, injustice, unemployment, arms proliferation, shelter, disease, and pollution around the world
for valuing our arid land and its resources above those of our neighbors - condemning them to continuing abuse by their leaders, in the absence of your humanitarian intervention, in order to privilege the salvation of our people
for your consideration in killing us stealthily and from so far away, so that we can never fully recognize how honorable an antagonist you are - and then discretely to relieve any personal discomfort arising from your stressful slaughter with pool-side relaxation and video war games.
for your unquestioning confidence in the technology that will enable you to kill us with such great precision - and your fatalistic acceptance that if your weapons unfortunately go astray, any level of collateral damage will be as Allah willed it
for the manner in which you clean and cover up the messy effects of your deliverance of death, with unmarked mass graves of unnamed people, filled by bulldozers with industrial efficiency - in such curious contrast to the sorrowful memorialized religious celebration of any deaths amongst your own soldiers
for giving some of us the possibility to live after your liberation - whether traumatized, bereft of family, maimed, burnt, blinded, incurably affected by "toxics", or suffering from the radioactive effects of depleted uranium shells that will empower some of us to pass genetic abhorrent defects on to our children
for the considerable resources discretely allocated by you over recent years in developing a more suitable governance structure for our peoples - although we wonder at your preference for associates who have been indicted or convicted for a variety of offences
for your efforts to engage in nation-building to provide structures to receive your gift of democracy to our culture - despite the modesty of your success on previous occasions
for making such wonderful promises to us through your propaganda tracts and broadcasts - even though you have had to suffer embarrassment in keeping such promises on other occasions
for demonstrating to us and the world, through the UN Security Council, that the democracy you seek to bring to our country really only works through tying votes to collateral aid and trade - those of us who survive will endeavor to apply these lessons more assiduously, although the approach is long familiar to our people
for the loyal support you have given so effectively, as an ally and as a trading partner, to our Leader - who has acted so repressively with your knowledge for so long
for the chemical and other factories you built for our Leader - to enable him to manufacture weapons to attack and slaughter the minorities in our country
for the weapons you sold to our Leader in the past that enabled him to attack and slaughter our neighbors - and allowed us to be slaughtered in return
for bringing weapons of mass destruction ("daisy cutters", "toxics" and depleted uranium shells) to our country so we can be reminded what they look like - since your inspectors have been unable to find traces of those you sold to our Leader or enabled him to make
for the sanctions that you have applied to our country for so many years to teach us the basic humanity we have been so slow in learning - depriving us of essential medical and food supplies, clearly a necessary punishment even though it has unfortunately resulted in the death of so many
for the inspired European colonial administration which created and governed our country in its early years and established the educational and civil frameworks that gave rise to those who rule us - and of whom you would now rid us
for the inspired European leadership, notably in the person of Winston Churchill, regarding the use of gas on Kurds and Iraqis in the 1920s as a "scientific expedient" not to be prevented "by the prejudices of those who do not think clearly": "I do not understand this squeamishness... I am strongly in favor of using poison gas against uncivilized tribes" - leaving us perplexed by the righteous insistence of your Leader (known to model himself on Churchill) to remove our Leader who so assiduously followed this prescription in years past.
for the amazing power you demonstrate so simply and dramatically through your instruments of war - a power that contrasts so significantly with your total impotence in response to the more complex problems of the billions around the world whose condition you neglect, exemplified by your continuing need to increase the numbers that you incarcerate
for your conviction that the level of guilt of our brutal Leader justifies the disruption that you plan to cause to our region - in the absence of evidence (now that you seem to have mislaid the receipts) other than your secret and highly sensitive knowledge of what you and your agents have supplied to our Leader
for your conviction that after our deaths you will find additional evidence to justify the acts you undertake against us - we sincerely hope that you will not subsequently be discredited if you are obliged to secretly fabricate and plant such evidence of our Leader's misdeeds in order to fully justify our deaths to the world
for honoring our people by elevating our Leader to be the most wanted man in the history of mankind, as measured by the unprecedented resources the Coalition of the Willing is devoting to his removal - we trust that you will in future continue to devote a significant proportion of such resources to the conditions of people in need around the world
for granting us the opportunity to sacrifice ourselves in celebration of the values and vision you claim to be universal - without questioning the possibility that we might have preferred to live with values of which you may have no understanding
for the courage of your leadership in secretly abandoning the many interwoven values that have sustained your society in favor of the blatant pursuit of naked power in our region and elsewhere - we hope that the resulting moral vacuum in your leadership will bring you to fruitful learnings for the future and avoid making your culture as arid as our lands
for the risks you take in relying increasingly on methods developed in totalitarian societies you formerly claimed to deplore, although emulated by our Leader - in dying we wonder at the possibility that unknowingly your society may become essentially indistinguishable from theirs
for your Leader's mobilization of the world to avenge a failure of his father - a degree of familial devotion and tribal loyalty that we also admire in our culture, although never having practiced it to such a degree
for your method of honoring history through seeking to bomb the region which gave birth to your civilization and culture thousands of years ago - we wonder whether you will ensure that any remnants of that glorious past period of our culture have been carefully added to your target list to demean us further
for the strict censorship that you will ensure on media coverage of your method of killing us in order not to offend your audience worldwide and spoil their appreciation of the skills of the precision bombing of your heroic pilots - who are all family men
As we die on your TV programs, kindly brought to you by CNN and its sponsors, we will try to think of you entertained in your homes and bars, eating your popcorn and pizzas with a cool drink - and switching to Star Trek when our agonies offend your sensibilities or become too boring.

Hail and Salaam to the Coalition of the Willing, to your Leaders, to your Senators, and to your Citizens !

About to Die, We - men and women, old and young - of the Iraqi people Salute You

Nos Morituri Te Salutamus !

Prof. Roldan Tomasz Surez L. Centro de Investigaciones en Sistemologa Interpretativa Facultad de Ingeniera, Universidad de Los Andes Mrida, Venezuela


~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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akon
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26987 posts
Thu Mar-20-03 12:18 PM

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87. "From a kenyan newspaper"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

KWAMCHETSI MAKOKHA / BETWEEN US
Kenya should never discover oil

Yesterday, at dawn, death began raining down on Iraqi soldiers and civilians, and on an infrastructure already pulverised by American bombs a decade earlier.

The bombs, American propaganda says, are so smart that they can identify and eliminate only three items: weapons of mass destruction, Saddam Hussein, and his sons. That way, the world can be a safer and better place to live in.

Yet, no war represents the triumph of stupidity over tact more than this one. The Second Gulf War illustrates the painful reality that America can damn well do as it pleases, whether the rest of the world likes it or not.

In 2001, after the September 11 attack on America, draft dodger George Walker Bush discovered the warrior and hero in himself and waged war against Afghanistan. Then, as now, he gave the Afghans an ultimatum to produce terrorist mastermind Osama bin Laden and hand him over for trial.

Afghanistan's spiritual leader Mullah Omar would not hear of anything like that. When America went into the mountain country, sandwiched between Iran and Pakistan, it deposed the Taliban regime, installed a new government and left without arresting or killing bin Laden or Mullah Omar.

But the bloodthirst of a superpower can be riotous. Last year, in his State of the Union address, Bush served notice on three "rogue" nations considered to have links to terrorist organisations: Iraq, Iran and North Korea. Over the past year, the Bush administration has been struggling to build a case against Iraq, then finally deciding that it did not need one, launched war.

Framing Saddam

As it is, Iraq has not threatened to attack America or any other country. There has been no established link between Iraq and Osama bin Laden, or his Al Qaeda network. But framing Saddam has been much easier than hop-step-and-jump.

It started with a charge of possessing weapons of mass destruction. In the twinkling of an eye, what was a war against terror suddenly became a war to liberate Iraq from Saddam's dictatorship.

Bush, in his State of the Union address of January 29, 2001, said that hostile countries such as Iraq could supply non-state organisations with weapons of mass destruction, to use against the US: "By seeking weapons of mass destruction, these regimes pose a grave and growing danger. They could provide these arms to terrorists, giving them the means to match their hatred. They could attack our allies or attempt to blackmail the United States."

That is how the hunt for Osama turned into a crusade against an evil man called Saddam. In the space of two years, Saddam Hussein has become Osama bin Laden.

Most of the arguments about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction have focused on that Gulf state's capabilities, but never on its inclination to use them. The Iraqi leadership has only used weapons of mass destruction against the Iranians and Kurds never against America or any European power. One can assume that the leadership appreciates the consequences of using such weapons against powerful enemies. No plans to use of weapons of mass destruction against foreign countries have never been discovered, and in their absence can only be presumed to be non-existent.

But it seems that the present war is being launched on the basis of unconfirmed suspicions of both weapons and intention to use them.

Back in 1998, the US ordered UN weapons inspectors to leave Iraq. At that time, it was believed that Iraq's nuclear capacity had been wholly dismantled.

Although Iraq was within three years of developing a nuclear bomb in 1991, the Gulf War destroyed all its facilities for producing material for a nuclear programme and for enriching uranium were destroyed. Uranium was being imported from Portugal, France and Italy. Facilities for enriching uranium were being built in Iraq, largely with German assistance. But Iraq has never had the capacity to enrich uranium sufficiently for a bomb and was extremely dependent on imports. If this is so, Iraq may have only been close to developing a bomb if US and European assistance had continued to the same extent as before.

Biting sanctions

Since its defeat in the war of 1991, Iraq has been living under cruel international sanctions that forbid it from importing anything useful.

The Oil-for-Food programme Iraq has been suspended, putting 16 million people in danger of starvation.

Saddam's regime has been struggling with the belief that the UN weapons inspectors are spying for the US government, which would use this information to plot its overthrow. Even with all these suspicions, the UN inspectors have so far found nothing. Bush's war against Iraq is, therefore one without the flimsiest of excuses. America's sole purpose for waging this war is to increase its wealth and control a vital part of the international oil economy.

Bush is proceeding on this war without justifiable cause or evidence. He does so without the support of the UN Security Council, thus weakening an important world body. And for his transgressions, George W Bush offers the widows and orphans of Iraq food and medicine contingent on one condition: they must not destroy the oil fields.

America is quickly turning into an imperial power which, instead of putting vassal states under its thumb, is only interested in mopping up economic trophies. The question remains, after Saddam Hussein, who is next?

Seeing the kind of tragedy oil is about to bring to Iraq, one wishes that Kenya never discovers that resource or President Mwai Kibaki could just as easily find himself hoarding "weapons of mass destruction".


.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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akon
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26987 posts
Thu Mar-20-03 12:34 PM

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88. "RE: From a kenyan newspaper"
In response to Reply # 87


  

          

Genesis of Bush's obsession with Iraq
By GITAU WARIGI
Recently, a fellow called David Frum, who was employed as a speechwriter for George W. Bush when he came to power, published a book on his recollections when at the White House.

An interesting thing he remembers is that when it came to drafting Bush's first State of the Union speech, a superior instructed Frum quite shamelessly to write into it "a justification for attacking Iraq." The fellow wracked his brains, but could come up with nothing better than a phrase about Iraq becoming an "axis of hatred" towards the United States. The phrase was reworked by higher-ups to read "axis of evil" (so as to sound more "theological," Frum was told). Beside Iraq, Iran and North Korea were also added to the list.

The snippet shows the extent of the Bush administration's morbid obsession with Saddam Hussein. The obsession is such that the Bush administration theologians have been working frantically to implicate the Saddam regime with Al-Qaeda, never mind that America's own CIA reportedly isn't convinced there is much of a connection. Undeterred, Bush's gung-ho defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, decided to set up a rival intelligence-analysis unit with the apparent intention of trashing the CIA's picture of events.

In short, war against Iraq is inevitable, unless a pure miracle happens. Chances of a miracle happening, however, are as remote as the possibility of Bush figuring out where and what the heck Mt Kilimanjaro is, or what in the Lord's name is Jupiter or Pluto. He might think it is a new weapons system developed by a military contractor, in which case he would instruct Rumsfeld to buy the stuff and target it against those damned Islamic terrorists.

Make no mistake, there are going to be no winners from this showdown. The fate of poor Iraq goes without saying. Eerily, the sheer tragedy awaiting thousands upon thousands of hapless Iraqis who are going to die in the hail of bombs Uncle Sam will soon unleash is getting buried in the impersonal debates about weapons inspections and whether or not a fresh anti-Saddam vote in the UN Security Council is necessary.

The other big loser will be the UN. America has made it abundantly plain that it doesn't give a hoot which way opinion there goes. Saddam must be hit. Even if the Security Council, which is supposed to authorise military action, balks, and even if France, Russia and China cast their vetoes in the Council, America has said loud and clear that it is going to war, damn the rest of the world.

The long and short of it all is that the UN is destined to become worthless. The charter paper the UN was written on - ironically under the direction of the Americans - will not be worth the spit the White House is throwing at it once Bush is through with his war.

One might as well ask what's the point of having the Security Council? Why not simply abolish the shop and let America be the sole entity on the earth with the power of veto? Since France and Russia and China (or anybody else for that matter) cannot stop America despite their veto-wielding status, what's the use of having these so-called "Big Powers" sitting in the Council?

Britain is going to be a big loser too, much as Tony Blair is waxing enthusiastic for the privilege of being designated America's sidekick in the coming conflict. Sidekick is a rather generous description of British involvement, whose inconsequence was illuminated in a recent revelation that American military planners had yet to come up with a precise and formal role for the British contingent. Clearly, the Brits are being tolerated simply for show, to deflect criticism of America acting solo.

Last week, Britain was hugely humiliated when Rumsfeld casually remarked that the US did not need British help to fight the war. Humiliating as this was, it is nonetheless perfectly true. If the Brits retained any pride, they would have pulled out their troops, or at the very least demanded an apology. But sidekicks have no power, and so they suffer their indignity in silence.

The only beneficiary out of this war is going to be America, and not just by pummelling Iraq, which everybody expects will be over in a matter of days. People who imagine America is going into this thing in a bumbling and blind way as has been its norm are mistaken. There is an ambitious plan in place to impose total American dominance over the Middle East, and from there the rest of the world is expected to get the message. The era of Pax Americana is set to be given a radically new imprint by Bush the Second.

The icing on the cake is Iraqi oil. The country has the second largest reserves after Saudi Arabia, which is tightly in America's sphere of influence. Saudi Arabia is also Osama bin Laden's birthplace, though I have heard people say Bush imagines Osama is Afghani.

France has displayed rare courage in standing up to America's war-mongering. But the effort is futile. Still, the Americans don't have to be petty and crude in the manner they have taken to demonising the French. Last week, some American lawmakers in the House of Representatives ordered that the reference to "french fries" be erased from the menus in the House cafeterias. The name was changed to "freedom fries," a rather silly term if you ever heard one.

If anything, the episode indicated that the phenomenon we have come to know as George W. Bush has many replicas in that country, especially among politicians. It was totally lost to the esteemed Congressmen that "french fries" are actually not French. Their origin is Belgian.

Saddam is only the first victim in Bush's designs. The next target - and mark this - will be North Korea. It is not going to be a full-scale invasion, a la Iraq, not with China lying next door. But don't rule out a devastating air strike against that country's nuclear facilities, or even a scheme to eliminate the North Korean leadership.

In a recent interview with Bob Woodward (of Watergate fame), Bush reportedly got horribly agitated when the discussion turned to North Korean leader Kim Jong Il. The startled journalist thought the President might jump up from his seat, frothing in the mouth.


.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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takinthecoltrane
Member since Oct 27th 2002
1958 posts
Thu Mar-20-03 02:52 PM

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89. "My new opinion."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

For a while I would have described myself as anti-war; this is no longer the case. I am not pro-war either, however, by any means. Allow me to explain.

I have done a great deal of thinking recently, looking back on all of the articles I have been collecting from countless sources over the past few months, weighing carefully the opinions of all I have talked to (including those expressed on this message board) and trying to determine the answer to one question and one question only: "Why is it neccesary that we do this now?" Previously, I felt that the lack of links to Al-Qaeda and also Sadaam's inability to succesfully deliver any payload of chemical or biological weapons to any far-away targets was sufficient enough to define an educated anti-war stance, and that he would not sell any of these weapons to terrorist organizations due to ideological differences and also because many of them would, in one way or another, use them against him. The blatant hypocrisy of our past dealings with Iraq only bolstered this opinion, that we were not pushing this war solely for oil, but that we certainly had our own interests (and by interests I don't mean safety) in mind when we chose to begin the path to war.

I have now come to the conlusion that no one but the United States government has sufficient knowledge to determine whether or not there is enough evidence that Iraq's possible selling of WMDs to terrorist organizations is an immediate threat to the United States. This brings up two scenarios in my mind:

1) The United States is correct, and Iraq poses a "clear and present danger" to the United States, whatever terminology you want to use. If this is the case, we have handled this situation more poorly than I previously thought humanly possible. We have absolutely no support from the international community, and I feel that is mostly because the Bush administration is behaving almost like a carbon-copy of the current Democratic party: contradictory and confused, with several stated goals but no real coherent priorities. Regime change and disarmament became interchangable words very quickly, and the hypocrisy of the United States stance regarding Iraq quickly came to the forefront when one considered the U.S.'s blind support of Israel and also due to it's past dealings with Iraq (read: support).

Following our complete diplomatic failure (and the very real erosion of human rights for Americans, both citizens and "enemy combatants") we proceeded to twist the arms of seemingly every small nation in the world in order to force them to join "The Coalition of the Willing" which would attack Iraq. The rhetoric of the administration continued to be nothing but straight propaganda, at no time managing to be honest, insightful, or convincing. Why should the word "maybe" be mentioned by anyone if we have such amazingly conclusive evidence? And this brings me up to the current situation.
For a while I would have described myself as anti-war; this is no longer the case. I am not pro-war either, however, by any means. Allow me to explain.

I have done a great deal of thinking recently, looking back on all of the articles I have been collecting from countless sources over the past few months, weighing carefully the opinions of all I have talked to (including those expressed on this message board) and trying to determine the answer to one question and one question only: "Why is it neccesary that we do this now?" Previously, I felt that the lack of links to Al-Qaeda and also Sadaam's inability to succesfully deliver any payload of chemical or biological weapons to any far-away targets was sufficient enough to define an educated anti-war stance, and that he would not sell any of these weapons to terrorist organizations due to ideological differences and also because many of them would, in one way or another, use them against him. The blatant hypocrisy of our past dealings with Iraq only bolstered this opinion, that we were not pushing this war solely for oil, but that we certainly had our own interests (and by interests I don't mean safety) in mind when we chose to begin the path to war.

I have now come to the conlusion that no one but the United States government has sufficient knowledge to determine whether or not there is enough evidence that Iraq's possible selling of WMDs to terrorist organizations is an immediate threat to the United States. This brings up two scenarios in my mind:

1) The United States has exagerrated the evidence they have to such an extent that it was in fact not neccesary to strike immediately, in which case I have absolutely no sympathy for our government whatsoever; this is what I fear, because I have absolutely no reason to believe Powell, Rumsfield, Wolfowitz, or Rice. Seriously, if this is the case, I just can't imagine how much worse what we're currently doing will look in light of this truth.

2) The United States is correct, and Iraq poses a "clear and present danger" to the United States, whatever terminology you want to use. If this is the case, we have handled this situation more poorly than I previously thought humanly possible. We have absolutely no support from the international community, and I feel that is mostly because the Bush administration is behaving almost like a carbon-copy of the current Democratic party: contradictory and confused, with several stated goals but no real coherent priorities. Regime change and disarmament became interchangable words very quickly, and the hypocrisy of the United States stance regarding Iraq quickly came to the forefront when one considered the U.S.'s blind support of Israel and also due to it's past dealings with Iraq (read: support). The attempts to exploit people's fear resulting from September 11th were atrocious, yet another example of the culture of fear.

Following our complete diplomatic failure (and the very real erosion of human rights for Americans, both citizens and "enemy combatants") we proceeded to twist the arms of seemingly every small nation in the world in order to force them to join "The Coalition of the Willing" which would attack Iraq. The rhetoric of the administration continued to be nothing but straight propaganda, at no time managing to be honest, insightful, or convincing. Why should the word "maybe" be mentioned by anyone if we have such amazingly conclusive evidence? And this brings me up to the current situation.

America is currently poised to start what can only accurately be described as a slaughter. The "shock and awe" military strategy is one of the most blatant uses of excessive force in history, an absolutely ludicrous way of disarming this country and removing its leader. The Iraqi people will abhor America following this rain of death, I assure you of that.

And following this war, there is no reason to believe that the United States will set up any sort of democratic government over there; if Afghanastan proved anything, it was that the United States only truly backs up its words when it comes to ones concerning violence. The shameful exploitation of Iraq's people that will no doubt follow the end of U.S. led military operations will serve as yet another example of the hollow nature of U.S. rhetoric regarding "freedom".

YET DESPITE ALL OF THIS, I think that if we did have evidence supporting the idea that they were an immediate threat to American security, that it was necessary to do something right now, something SHOULD have been done. What that something should have been would no doubt have involved presenting our evidence to the furthest extent possible without posing a national security threat (and if you think Powell actually did that, you didn't read that transcript.) This would have undoubtedly resulted in the support of a much greater portion of the world community. Also, the military attack should have (and hopefully in this hypothetical would have) been much less severe than "shock and awe", and while some would argue that precision surgical strikes against weapons factories etc. would have been insufficient since the Elite Republican Guards would have hidden in Bagdhad etc., I propose that you read up on "shock and awe" and if you still support it get back to me with what you think.

So basically in this scenario (one assuming we have evidence that a strike was necessary prior to the weather no longer being conducive to a strike of any kind) the Bush administration still gets called out on practically everything they did, because it should have been much much easier to get support than it would have been to blatantly lie as we did about damn near everything related to this war.

Bottom line: We might be doing something necessary, but that doesn't excuse how we're going about doing it in any way shape or fashion. And if it actually wasn't necessary, then I just might have lost any faith I had left in this country.

Oh and just in case he wants to claim that I have come around to his viewpoint just like he knew I would or whatever, I'd like to say this in advance: Seenic, you are full of shit like no other person on earth, and your complete inability to question anything associated with a) fundamentalist Christianity, b) misogony, or c) the actions of the United States government has provided me with a constant source of comedy like nothing else in recent memory. Keep up the good work.

"There's a lot you can do with a giant four foot dried, curling, boomerang seed pod from the Botang Tree that grows only in Indonesia."
-Tom Waits

"It's not about a salary it's all about reality."
-KRS-One

"Me being wack is like naps on Kojack."
-RZA

"The revolution will not be apologized for."
-Aesop Rock

"Came to save the game like a memory card."
-MF Doom

  

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akon
Charter member
26987 posts
Thu Mar-20-03 03:56 PM

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93. "RE: My new opinion."
In response to Reply # 89
Thu Mar-20-03 03:59 PM

  

          

i just came from an anti war rally. wasn't too many people but the energy was inspiring.

i dont know what to think of this war.i dont know how big a threat saddam is, i lean towards those that say he is not as big a threat as the united states says. i dont know how he treats the iraqi's. all i know is that i see this as some sort of new form of colonialism/patronism. the united states is basically saying that they have the right to determine who governs what country and in what way. i see the bigger danger in that because the united states has proven time and again that it is only interested in protecting its interests. that does not signal a commitment to justice but a commitment to american capitalism/ and coming from a country whose vote in the un probably does not count much i feel i have every right to worry about the sovereignty of nations that do not have the military or economic might that the united states has.

if the u.n itself can fail to protect a country (that so many says has violated un sanctions and yet we know of at least two other countries, one blatantly doing this, but not facing any consequences.) then who will? this to me suggests that this war is not so much a war for justice and democracy or to 'save' the iraqi nation....it sits uncomfortably with me this new role the u.s has given itself and is chosing to impose on the rest of us. if saddam is as big a threat, then why would inspectors hesitate to support this war?

another question: why decapitate? if we are so much looking for justice, where is the jury (outside of the white house). it seems we have adopted the mantra of God: we have judged, and now we are executing. there is no call for lets try and get the man alive, put him on trial, parade all his sins and let the jury decide. if we are so convinced of his guilt and so sure of our might, then morally, we would be obligated to give the man a trial (didn;t the nazi's get one?). and let the jury decide. that's why there is an international tribunal. the irony is not lost to me that the united states refused to sign that accord. so pretty much the army can do whatever it pleases without worrying about accounting for its actions.

i saw that there were some oil fields burning ( i guess bush wasn't loud enough). incidentally, i was thinking, i'd probably do the same thing. you say that you only want to save us, has nothing to do with the oil or whatever, so will you still carry out your promises if there is no more oil here? that's just subjective/wishful thinking though. in a way i hope they go do all this, spend the 400 billion, come back empty handed and still be obligated to rebuild the country. i started fasting yesterday, i think that;s what i'll ask the ancestors for..

anyway, the deed is done... i feel like there's nothing more we can say or do. except maybe pray that the casualties of war are not that great.. and that the earth will forgive us.


.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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takinthecoltrane
Member since Oct 27th 2002
1958 posts
Thu Mar-20-03 05:25 PM

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95. "Sorry if I wasn't clear..."
In response to Reply # 93


  

          

>i dont know what to think of this war.i dont know how big a
>threat saddam is, i lean towards those that say he is not as
>big a threat as the united states says.

See all I'm saying is that there is a possibility that there is an actual threat. I'm leaving this open, this is why I am no longer anti-war, why I now am only anti-this administration, because there might actually be a credible immediate threat, and like I said before it wouldn't be a direct one from Iraq, it would involve deals with terrorist organizations. That's all I'm saying, that it's possible, and if we DO know about it, then a form of war would be necessary, but most certainly not in the way we're going about it right now. I completely disagree with the way this affair has been handled regardless of whether or not we actually have evidence of an immediate threat. And just like the U.S., most of the people who are saying he isn't an immediate threat are driven by self-interest, so I take their opinion with a grain of salt similar in size to the one I have whenever the U.S. says anything.

>i dont know how he treats the iraqi's.

It's pretty fucking terrible. That's not why I think there is a possibility of a form of war being perhaps necessary though, because if this was really the issue the U.N. resolution we tried to push through would have explicitly discussed regime change as opposed to disarmament.

>all i know is that i see this as some sort of new form of >colonialism/patronism. the united states is basically saying >that they have the right to determine who governs what country >and in what way.

It's pretty obvious this is a part of why we're doing it, but if there is a credible immediate indirect threat from Iraq that we're sure exists then I really do think we have the right to defend ourselves, the problem I have is that if we had such great evidence how come Powell forgot to bring all the best stuff to the Security Council briefing he held...

>and coming from a country whose vote in the un probably does >not count much i feel i have every right to worry about the >sovereignty of nations that do not have the military or >economic might that the united states has.

You most certainly do. I would feel the exact same way if I were you.

> if the u.n itself can fail to protect a country (that so
>many says has violated un sanctions and yet we know of at
>least two other countries, one blatantly doing this, but not
>facing any consequences.) then who will? this to me
>suggests that this war is not so much a war for justice and
>democracy or to 'save' the iraqi nation....

Oh I know, I don't think that in the slightest. I think the people will be better off, but everyone who thinks that it'll be an actual democracy or something is surely kidding themselves.

And about applying the same standards across the board, I most definitely agree.

>it sits uncomfortably with me this new role the u.s has given >itself and is chosing to impose on the rest of us.

This isn't anything new... the U.S. is now actually concerned with its own security though, I mean it was previously but we were actually scared following 9-11, and this is an example of overreacting in order to try prevent something terrible from happening again.

>if saddam is as big a threat, then why would inspectors >hesitate to support this war?

Here's my take on this: the inspectors were doing the very best they could. Unforunately, the extra months they requested would result in the weather being faaaaar less than conducive for a U.S. led strike against Iraq, so again, if the magic hypothetical is true, that we have an immediate indirect threat from Iraq identified, it was probably necessary to go ahead and do it. They didn't support it because they weren't done.

I would like to point out that I am in fact saying "if" before all of these points, that's why I keep pointing out that many are based on hypotheticals. There are very few certainties in this one.

>another question: why decapitate? if we are so much
>looking for justice, where is the jury (outside of the white
>house). it seems we have adopted the mantra of God: we have
>judged, and now we are executing. there is no call for lets
>try and get the man alive, put him on trial, parade all his
>sins and let the jury decide.

Unfortunately that's just not going to happen, and it really wouldn't serve anyone well. While I am all for due process when it comes to war criminals and all that, we aren't going to catch Sadaam Hussein alive, and if we have the opportunity to kill him, we should. I do realize how amazingly cold that sounds, how much it sounds like I'm advocating playing God, but in this case I think it's undoubtedly the best way to go.

And we know that he's evil. I don't think that's why we're going in there, to free his people from his terrible dictatorship, but I personally support killing him through bombing if possible and if we're going to do this, which we obviously already have.

There's not a jury in the world that could possibly not convict Sadaam Hussein.

>if we are so convinced of his guilt and so sure of our might, >then morally, we would be obligated to give the man a trial
>(didn;t the nazi's get one?). and let the jury decide. that's >why there is an international tribunal. the irony is not lost >to me that the united states refused to sign that accord.

It's because some things like the death penalty are completely different in the world court than in American courts, and we didn't want someone to be immune from the death penalty because the world court allowed them to be.

I'm against the death penalty mostly by the way, just providing an example of why we opposed that one.

>so pretty much the army can do whatever it pleases without >worrying about accounting for its actions.

The army does what it's told, I think it's the executive branch (which now has the power to declare war) of the U.S. government that we should be making this statement about. There should have been a more thorough explanation of this apparently damning evidence of an immediate threat presented to the Security Council.

>i saw that there were some oil fields burning ( i guess bush
>wasn't loud enough). incidentally, i was thinking, i'd
>probably do the same thing.

>you say that you only want to save us, has nothing to do with >the oil or whatever, so will you still carry out your promises >if there is no more oil here?

Hey now, I'm no Chevron exec. I fully realize there's a major oil angle (on a side note, if you haven't read the much-discussed dollar/euro and OPEC article you really need to, it's very interesting) but if we do have this evidence we say we have, which I'm saying I don't know if we have or not (and nobody else can say they do unless they're in the U.S. government high up since we refused to share any of this supposed evidence with the U.N.), then the oil becomes completely secondary. Obviously we're going to exploit the shit out of it following this war; I am completely opposed to such exploitation, that was not the point of my comments, my point was that if the hypothetical situation I have described is true then the oil is irrelevant. If we don't have this evidence and are going in on "common sense" or whatever the hell fanatics use to justify their actions, then yeah it's about the oil and controlling the minds of Americans and imperialism and all that stuff... but I don't know which one is true, because nobody who's not a very important U.S. government figure knows which is right.

>in a way i hope they go do all this, spend the 400 billion, >come back empty handed and still be obligated to rebuild the
>country.

They're asking the Security Council to pay for the rebuilding, how fucking ridiculous, the same people they couldn't present straight evidence they say so clearly supports our actions to.

>anyway, the deed is done... i feel like there's nothing more
>we can say or do. except maybe pray that the casualties of
>war are not that great.. and that the earth will forgive us.

I personally think that Shock and Awe is one of the most terrible things ever devised by man, and that it will prove to be an atrocity on the level of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but with very little to justify it; hopefully that will not be forgiven or forgotten for a long long time.

"There's a lot you can do with a giant four foot dried, curling, boomerang seed pod from the Botang Tree that grows only in Indonesia."
-Tom Waits

"It's not about a salary it's all about reality."
-KRS-One

"Me being wack is like naps on Kojack."
-RZA

"The revolution will not be apologized for."
-Aesop Rock

"Came to save the game like a memory card."
-MF Doom

  

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Rexdale
Member since May 20th 2002
626 posts
Thu Mar-20-03 08:07 PM

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96. "RE: About this war...."
In response to Reply # 95


  

          

I'm really concerned about this war in Iraq for many reasons:

1) there is no clear evidence to support any link between Osama and Saddam, so on that front, this war is a sham.

2) many Iraqi ppl will DIE, because Saddam has no other choice but to fight. I mean come on, Saddam has done some terrible things, and the choice of exile only leaves him open to being tried in international courts, he knows he done, he might as well fight to the end.

3) due to the number of Iraqi deaths, the Arab and Muslim world will NEVER forget this, and anti-American sentiment will continue to grow, and this could lead to more terror attacks here and abroad

I honestly see no victory in this war, even the oil, the hegomoney factor, or whatever other reason the Bush administration will not outway the negative consequences of this war. i just don't see why more Americans are not opening their eyes to realize this.

peace

  

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takinthecoltrane
Member since Oct 27th 2002
1958 posts
Thu Mar-20-03 08:36 PM

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98. "I'm aware of everything you just said."
In response to Reply # 96


  

          

It's just not that simple man...

"There's a lot you can do with a giant four foot dried, curling, boomerang seed pod from the Botang Tree that grows only in Indonesia."
-Tom Waits

"It's not about a salary it's all about reality."
-KRS-One

"Me being wack is like naps on Kojack."
-RZA

"The revolution will not be apologized for."
-Aesop Rock

"Came to save the game like a memory card."
-MF Doom

  

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liquidanger
Member since Nov 26th 2002
1485 posts
Thu Mar-20-03 08:23 PM

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97. "RE: My new opinion."
In response to Reply # 93


  

          

I've said in these posts before, that when people say that this is a new form of colinalization or the US looking out for their best interests, why not? I hate going into war, our people being in the Middle East, civilian lives in danger, but wouldn't almost any war we got into protect our own interests? Personally, I don't know where I stand on the whole situation, all I know is that Saddam is evil. I've seen the tape of when he came into office, horrifying is the only word to describe it. His family and friends being carried off to be slaughtered, grown men screaming and crying when they started naming names of enemies of the state. That was all it took me to support the overthrow of this guy. But in the argument of the US doing this in their best interest, why else? This is how nations are run, and always have been run. Sure, we may try to make it seem like we are the perfect nation, freedom and all, but at the end of the day, we're going to do some shitty stuff, just like anybody else. And while I never support war itself, I've come to accept it, alnog with all the victories and defeats, physically and critically, and let the chips fall where they may. The US hasn't made a whole lot of good decisions about war since the early 40's, and I didn't expect them to now. Hopefully, we got Saddam while he was sleeping and nobody else will get killed

..........................................................................................

One day I'm going to grow wings
A chemical reaction
Hysterical and useless

  

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takinthecoltrane
Member since Oct 27th 2002
1958 posts
Thu Mar-20-03 08:41 PM

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99. "Ugh that post was messed up something terrible."
In response to Reply # 89
Thu Mar-20-03 08:44 PM

  

          

*apologizes for extremely poor pasting job when moving document from notepad to posting window*

Basically the second scenario I was going to present was that we don't actually have any evidence, in which case we are basically an incredibly evil nation.

"There's a lot you can do with a giant four foot dried, curling, boomerang seed pod from the Botang Tree that grows only in Indonesia."
-Tom Waits

"It's not about a salary it's all about reality."
-KRS-One

"Me being wack is like naps on Kojack."
-RZA

"The revolution will not be apologized for."
-Aesop Rock

"Came to save the game like a memory card."
-MF Doom

  

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CTownBallah
Member since Oct 13th 2002
650 posts
Mon Mar-24-03 05:57 AM

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140. "RE: My new opinion."
In response to Reply # 89


          

Thats how many, many people feel. What was onmce so cut and dry (in our minds) has now been thrown on its head. I dont put much credence in polls that say its 60-40, more like 33-33-33, pro/anti/and "I dont have a fucking clue". I'm confused beyond belief. Just know not all of us are as sure as some of the posters tend to be. And why should we be. This is a confusing situation with many possibilities. Would anyone be shocked if Iraqi's embraced us? Would anyone be shocked if they told us to fuck off? Would anyone be shocked if we found WMD capable of killing thousands? Would anyone be surprised if we found nothing? Its crazy times we live in, and my train of thought reflects these times.

  

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CTownBallah
Member since Oct 13th 2002
650 posts
Mon Mar-24-03 05:59 AM

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141. "Russians providing Iraqi's with technology to help kill"
In response to Reply # 140


          

Anyone have more info, opinions, rationale, etc?????

  

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Mr_B
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Mon Mar-24-03 01:48 PM

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143. "Agreed"
In response to Reply # 140


  

          

I'm straddling the fence, too, though leaning towards an anti-war stance because I can't sincerely support this action when I feel like I haven't been told the whole story.

I'm like - you're actually telling me, with a straight face, that this has NOTHING to do with oil?! Come on, man. If that were the case then where was the US intervention in other cases of civilian oppression throughout the world.

And you mean to tell me that Iraq is the only store open when Al Qaeda is looking for that late night WMD fix?

And we're mad because THEY didn't abide by U.N. regulations - you gotta be kidding me. How can you, with a straight face, tell me in one breath that Iraq has got to be dealt with because they broke the U.N.'s rules, then in the next breath tell me that we're gonna have to say "fuck the U.N." and go kill us some Iraqi's.

In the end, it feels to me like the U.S. is taking action that will result in a whole lot of dead people just so we can stay the biggest and baddest thug on the block. As far as I'm concerned, human life is all humans have, and if you're going to take that away from someone you better have a good, water tight reason.

----

Niggas just don't know.


...y'know?

  

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13Rose
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Thu Mar-20-03 08:52 PM

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100. "RE: War Post- the meat & potatoes"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I have a question for my fellow okayP's. How do you feel about supporting our troops if your not for the war? I was having a discussion about this earlier. You know the sentiment "well their over there so we should just support our troops no matter what". I'm totally against that and I don't support them even though I know many of them don't want to be in war and are in the service for financial reasons I still can't support them in this endevor. How about you?

This post was paid for by the following.

www.twitter.com/13Rose
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Remember MJ The Great!
PSN: ThirteenRose

  

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takinthecoltrane
Member since Oct 27th 2002
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Thu Mar-20-03 09:04 PM

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101. "Depends on what you mean by support."
In response to Reply # 100


  

          

I'm personally not anti or pro war, although I lean more to the anti side, but I don't see how you could want them to die... I mean even if you're of the opinion that we are a terrible evil imperialist power trying to take over the world, you can't really be hoping for the death of more human beings can you?

If by that you mean "just because it's started it doesn't mean I should now have to agree", then yeah I see what you mean.

"There's a lot you can do with a giant four foot dried, curling, boomerang seed pod from the Botang Tree that grows only in Indonesia."
-Tom Waits

"It's not about a salary it's all about reality."
-KRS-One

"Me being wack is like naps on Kojack."
-RZA

"The revolution will not be apologized for."
-Aesop Rock

"Came to save the game like a memory card."
-MF Doom

  

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Mr_B
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Mon Mar-24-03 01:58 PM

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144. "I support the individuals, not the collective"
In response to Reply # 100


  

          

I feel for any front line soldier who has to go thousands of miles from home and possibly get killed because George Fucking Bush said they have to, and they can either follow orders or be a criminal. The same way I feel for any Iraqi citizen that has to fight to survive American led attacks for possibly the second time in 12 years.

I do not support the troops in the "well, they're over there so let's just hope they get back safely" sense, because that sounds too much like a subliminal endorsement for their killing people, to me. I mean, how else are they going to get back safely unless they kill the people trying to kill them? You get enough sound bites of enough people saying "Well yeah, I support our troops," and that's all the editors let you hear/read, well then it starts to sound like everyone is pro-war.

The question is why are they over there where people are going to try to kill them in the first place?

----

Niggas just don't know.


...y'know?

  

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ya Setshego
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Fri Mar-21-03 04:44 AM

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105. "War of Misinformation"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

ZNet | Iraq

The War of Misinformation has Begun

by Robert Fisk; UK Independent; March 16, 2003

All across the Middle East, they are deploying by the thousand. In the deserts of Kuwait, in Amman, in northern Iraq, in Turkey, in Israel and in Baghdad itself. There must be 7,000 journalists and crews "in theatre", as the more jingoistic of them like to say. In Qatar, a massive press centre has been erected for journalists who will not see the war. How many times General Tommy Franks will spin his story to the press at the nine o'clock follies, no one knows. He doesn't even like talking to journalists.

But the journalistic resources being laid down in the region are enormous. The BBC alone has 35 reporters in the Middle East, 17 of them "embedded" along with hundreds of reporters from the American networks and other channels in military units. Once the invasion starts, they will lose their freedom to write what they want. There will be censorship. And, I'll hazard a guess right now, we shall see many of the British and American journalists back to their old trick of playing toy soldiers, dressing themselves up in military costumes for their nightly theatrical performances on television. Incredibly, several of the American networks have set up shop in the Kurdish north of Iraq with orders not to file a single story until war begins in case this provokes the Iraqis to expel their network reporters from Baghdad.

The orchestration will be everything, the pictures often posed, the angles chosen by "minders", much as the Iraqis will try to do the same thing in Baghdad. Take yesterday's front-page pictures of massed British troops in Kuwait, complete with arranged tanks and perfectly formatted helicopters. This was the perfectly planned photo-op. Of course, it won't last.

Here's a few guesses about our coverage of the war to come. American and British forces use thousands of depleted uranium (DU) shells widely regarded by 1991 veterans as the cause of Gulf War syndrome as well as thousands of child cancers in present day Iraq to batter their way across the Kuwaiti-Iraqi frontier. Within hours, they will enter the city of Basra, to be greeted by its Shia Muslim inhabitants as liberators. US and British troops will be given roses and pelted with rice a traditional Arab greeting as they drive "victoriously" through the streets. The first news pictures of the war will warm the hearts of Messrs Bush and Blair. There will be virtually no mention by reporters of the use of DU munitions.

But in Baghdad, reporters will be covering the bombing raids that are killing civilians by the score and then by the hundred. These journalists, as usual, will be accused of giving "comfort to the enemy while British troops are fighting for their lives". By now, in Basra and other "liberated" cities south of the capital, Iraqis are taking their fearful revenge on Saddam Hussein's Baath party officials. Men are hanged from lamp-posts. Much television footage of these scenes will have to be cut to sanitise the extent of the violence.

Far better for the US and British governments will be the macabre discovery of torture chambers and "rape-rooms" and prisoners with personal accounts of the most terrible suffering at the hands of Saddam's secret police. This will "prove" how right "we" are to liberate these poor people. Then the US will have to find the "weapons of mass destruction" that supposedly provoked this bloody war. In the journalistic hunt for these weapons, any old rocket will do for the moment.

Bunkers allegedly containing chemical weapons will be cordoned off too dangerous for any journalist to approach, of course. Perhaps they actually do contain VX or anthrax. But for the moment, the all-important thing for Washington and London is to convince the world that the casus belli was true and reporters, in or out of military costume, will be on hand to say just that.

Baghdad is surrounded and its defenders ordered to surrender. There will be fighting between Shias and Sunnis around the slums of the city, the beginning of a ferocious civil conflict for which the invading armies are totally unprepared. US forces will sweep past Baghdad to his home city of Tikrit in their hunt for Saddam Hussein. Bush and Blair will appear on television to speak of their great "victories". But as they are boasting, the real story will begin to be told: the break-up of Iraqi society, the return of thousands of Basra refugees from Iran, many of them with guns, all refusing to live under western occupation.

In the north, Kurdish guerrillas will try to enter Kirkuk, where they will kill or "ethnically cleanse" many of the city's Arab inhabitants. Across Iraq, the invading armies will witness terrible scenes of revenge which can no longer be kept off television screens. The collapse of the Iraqi nation is now under way ...

Of course, the Americans and British just might get into Baghdad in three days for their roses and rice water. That's what the British did in 1917. And from there, it was all downhill.

Weasel words to watch for

'Inevitable revenge' for the executions of Saddam's Baath party officials which no one actually said were inevitable.

'Stubborn' or 'suicidal' to be used when Iraqi forces fight rather than retreat.

'Allegedly' for all carnage caused by Western forces.

'At last, the damning evidence' used when reporters enter old torture chambers.

'Officials here are not giving us much access' a clear sign that reporters in Baghdad are confined to their hotels.

'Life goes on' for any pictures of Iraq's poor making tea.

'Remnants' allegedly 'diehard' Iraqi troops still shooting at the Americans but actually the first signs of a resistance movement dedicated to the 'liberation' of Iraq from its new western occupiers.

'Newly liberated' for territory and cities newly occupied by the Americans or British.

'What went wrong?' to accompany pictures illustrating the growing anarchy in Iraq as if it were not predicted.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Oooo baby I like it raw. Oooo baby I like it RAAAW!(c)ODB- Shimmy Shimmy Ya

  

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TheSauce
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Fri Mar-21-03 05:07 AM

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108. "What is the Coalition of the Willing?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Who are the +40 nations they say are part of the war and what is each nation contributing?

Or are they all glorified yes-men?

I mean, what exactly is Japan contributing? Last I checked nothing. Who's sending Bush a check?

And how much development aid did he dangle in front of Angola's face to get them on board?

  

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LexM
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Fri Mar-21-03 06:49 AM

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109. "another interesting message board"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

at www.fearbush.com

_____________________________
peace.
wisdom.
sanity.
clarity.
justice.

"The best way to support 'our boys' is to create enough dissent that will pressure the leadership of this country to end this illegal and immoral war." ~okp HoChiGrimm

www.poetsagainstthewar.org





~~~~
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MicheleQJ
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Fri Mar-21-03 09:44 AM

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112. "Weekend: Info on events going down?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

.

http://myspace.com/139003080
http://www.last.fm/user/micheleqj/
http://myspace.com/alluswe
http://myspace.com/fermentedspirits
http://www.last.fm/music/Alluswe

  

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King_Friday
Member since Nov 22nd 2002
3087 posts
Fri Mar-21-03 09:49 AM

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113. "A Socialist Perspective"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

This link will take you to an important article by David North of the Socialist Equality Party. The article is called "The Crisis Of American Capitalism And The War Against Iraq". It is essential reading for those who would like to have a more complete understanding of the current state of things in the world.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/mar2003/iraq-m21.shtml

  

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foxnesn
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Fri Mar-21-03 11:27 AM

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116. "War sign of End Times????"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

*i thought this was interesting, i dont neccesarily agree with it.*

http://www.crosswalk.com/news/1191268.html

The bombing of Baghdad does not mean the end is near - only the beginning of the end.

While some end times interpreters see the U.S. war with Iraq as a sure sign that the Second Coming is at hand, at least one prophecy authority prefers patience over pinpoint predictions.

"My basic take is that stuff going on over there now is no direct fulfillment of prophecy, and that is very important to see," said Mark Hitchcock, Pastor of Faith Bible Church in Edmond, Okla. and author of nine books on Biblical prophecy. "Some people will say this is the beginning of Armageddon ... but my whole view is more of a stage-setting kind of scenario."

Hitchcock, who holds to a pre-tribulation theology, likens the recent events in Iraq to actors preparing to go on stage.

"There will be a rapture someday, but right now the curtain is down and the players are behind that curtain getting ready," he said. "It's like a shadow ahead of a person walking along; the shadow is not the person, but an indication of what is coming behind. I think this strikingly foreshadows many of the things the Bible says about the end times."

Hitchcock somewhat bristles at those who point to the war as the fulfillment of some obscure Bible passage. For example, Saddam Hussein can be translated "Destroyer," which also is the word for Abaddon, the army leader in Revelation 9, Verse 11 - yes, 9:11 - who is filled with evil.

"The problem is that Abaddon is the king of the abyss, which is the underworld. I don't think that is Saddam, but Satan or a demon," Hitchcock said. "I think it's wrong to , but it's also wrong to go to the other extreme and say there are no signs of the times at all. I try to come down in between."

In other words, he is intrigued by some of the seemingly prophetic tidbits - e.g. - Revelation 16 includes the only mention of Armageddon and mentions the Euphrates River, which runs through Iraq - but doesn't see them as airtight answers to end times questions.

While not convinced that the war with Iraq signals the imminent return of Jesus, Hitchcock does believe the conflict's eventual result - the removal of Hussein and his regime - is a big step in that direction.

In his latest book, The Second Coming of Babylon, the author lays out what the Bible says about how Babylon (modern-day Iraq) will be rebuilt in the final days and how the country will become a great world commercial center (Revelation 18) before it falls again.

"What's going on now is we're getting Saddam out of there and going to get the oil flowing again," he said, adding that Iraq only pumps 20 percent of the oil it can produce and would become much more of an world economic impact player if that production reached its potential.

Hitchcock, like much of the world, sees Hussein as an evil terrorist threat, but his reign has been even more hurtful to his own people.

"He's done nothing but ruin his country for 20 years (an eight-year war with Iran followed by 12 years of United Nations economic sanctions)," Hitchcock said. "With the removal of Saddam, the building of Babylon is much more likely."

What fascinates Hitchcock is how few paid much attention to that part of the world 60 years ago, but the focus has shifted that way again - primarily because of oil.

"That's where everything began, in Mesopotamia, the cradle of civilization. Then it moved west; the Greek Empire, then the Roman Empire, then the British Empire and now the United States. But now the world focus is moving back east again," he said. "And what does it boil down to? The main reason is oil, and who put the oil there? God did. I'm not saying all is doing over there is because of oil, but we wouldn't be as interested in Kuwait if not for oil. That's just being realistic. Oil has put the attention over there."

Hitchcock sees the war in Iraq and bloodshed in Israel and Palestine creating two effects that touch on Bible prophecy. First, the conflict is keeping the world focus on the Middle East, which is the staging ground for all the events to happen in the end times. Secondly, he sees the anti-war push for peace coming from the corners of the world paving the way for the antichrist. "The antichrist will come on a platform of peace," he said.

Rabbi Daniel Lapin, president of Toward Tradition, a coalition of Jews and Christians seeking to advance the nation toward faith-based principles, agrees with Hitchcock that it's not simply coincidence that all eyes are on Iraq and the Middle East. He also is not surprised that the United States is front and center in the conflict.

"This flows very naturally from the preliminary observation, which says that America itself is part of the fulfillment of prophecy," Lapin said. "America itself is to have divine involvement."

Ultimately, the events in Iraq serve only as a lead-in to the coming of the antichrist, said Hitchcock, who likes to impart history lessons where applicable.

"Alexander the Great died in Babylon. He was planning to make Babylon his eastern capital," he said. "And Napoleon, who spent a lot of time rummaging around the Middle East, had plans to build the city of New Babilonia."

Neither completed their missions, leaving the door open for the antichrist to finish the job. "I think the antichrist will do what Alexander the Great and Napoleon never did," Hitchcock said.

It just may not happen this week.


  

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foxnesn
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Fri Mar-21-03 06:21 PM

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120. "the relevance of this"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"In March 1988, in the town of Halabja, 5,000 Kurds died writhing in agony and 10,000 were seriously affected when Iraqi jets dropped chemical bombs on the town. Saddam Hussein's chemical weapons attack on Halabja, a predominantly Kurdish city in northeastern Iraq. On March 16, 1988, an estimated 5,000 civilians were killed and 10,000 injured when Iraqi air forces bombarded Halabja with mustard and other poison gases. Over a decade after the massacre, the people of Halabja still suffer from very high rates of serious diseases such as cancer, neurological disorders, birth defects and miscarriages."

was the end of the first gulf war premature given that clinton was coming into office?


  

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40thStreetBlack
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Fri Mar-21-03 07:17 PM

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122. "Bush Sr. still supported Saddam after Halabja"
In response to Reply # 120


  

          

So what's your point?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The white man has all the freedom. He's got everything on his side. He's the one that will say,
niggers, Puerto Ricans, minorities, don't you write on our wall. It's graffiti. It's against the law.
Then he'll find a mountain and put his face on it. Oh, he's a bitch." - Paul Mooney


<----- Long Live The King

  

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foxnesn
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Sun Mar-23-03 01:48 PM

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133. "i wasnt making a point"
In response to Reply # 122


  

          

i was asking question. wolfowitz didnt want the war to end the way it did. and saying that bush sr. supported saddam is incorrect. he wanted saddam contained. so ill ask again, should the war have ended only with the demise of saddam?

  

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40thStreetBlack
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Wed Mar-26-03 11:33 AM

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165. "of course you were making a point"
In response to Reply # 133


  

          

that is why you posted the stuff on Halabja - your point being that Saddam is a madman who gassed his own people, which leads to your question of if the end of the gulf war was premature and if we should have taken out Saddam then and there because he is such an evil mass-murderer.

And you are incorrect about Bush Sr., he did indeed support Saddam even after Halabja. Bush only wanted Saddam contained after he invaded Kuwait in 1990, he didn't do a damn thing after Saddam gassed the Kurds in 88, which is why Bush, Wolfowitz, & Co. crying about the Kurds now is disingenuous.

As for your question, Bush did't necessarily want to oust Saddam from power, he was more worried about maintaining stability in Iraq than he was about the freedom of the Iraqi people. As for me, I would take it back even further than the end of the gulf war and ask if Reagan and Bush should have been supporting Saddam for years before that.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The white man has all the freedom. He's got everything on his side. He's the one that will say,
niggers, Puerto Ricans, minorities, don't you write on our wall. It's graffiti. It's against the law.
Then he'll find a mountain and put his face on it. Oh, he's a bitch." - Paul Mooney


<----- Long Live The King

  

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foxnesn
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Wed Mar-26-03 01:38 PM

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167. "yes i know all of that"
In response to Reply # 165


  

          

i was asking a question though. sheesh.

  

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40thStreetBlack
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Thu Mar-27-03 11:55 AM

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173. "if you knew all of that"
In response to Reply # 167


  

          

then why did you put up the stuff about Halabja? It has nothing to do with your question.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The white man has all the freedom. He's got everything on his side. He's the one that will say,
niggers, Puerto Ricans, minorities, don't you write on our wall. It's graffiti. It's against the law.
Then he'll find a mountain and put his face on it. Oh, he's a bitch." - Paul Mooney


<----- Long Live The King

  

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foxnesn
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Thu Mar-27-03 02:09 PM

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174. "trying"
In response to Reply # 173


  

          

to put it in a bit of context as a starting point.

  

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40thStreetBlack
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Thu Mar-27-03 05:40 PM

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175. "you should pick another starting point for your context"
In response to Reply # 174


  

          

If your so concerned about Saddam gassing the Kurds you should be asking why we didn't make a move to oust him in 88 instead of 91. And what does Clinton have to do with anything? The war ended 2 years before he took office.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The white man has all the freedom. He's got everything on his side. He's the one that will say,
niggers, Puerto Ricans, minorities, don't you write on our wall. It's graffiti. It's against the law.
Then he'll find a mountain and put his face on it. Oh, he's a bitch." - Paul Mooney


<----- Long Live The King

  

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DrNO
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Fri Mar-21-03 06:49 PM

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121. "why isnt iraq using any of its horrible weapons?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i mean this war was started because saddam has tons of terrible weapons that threaten a country across the world from them right? so why arent they using them to protect themselves, in a position that would force a contry that has them to use them especially seeing as they have no other good way to protect themeslves. Oh yeah because they probably dont have them.
Its also funny that the first thing the US liberated was te oil fields, bush wanted to drill in an alaskan nature reserve so we can safely assume it wasnt to protect the environment.

_
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4TztqYaemt0
http://preptimeposse.blogspot.com/

  

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lexx3001
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Sat Mar-22-03 12:47 PM

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127. "exactly for this reason"
In response to Reply # 121


  

          

so people like you speak out on it. no disrespect, but honestly, thast what i would have done also.

Stay strong

Lexx

iamlexx.com
newvintagegroup.com
aim: lexx3001

  

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40thStreetBlack
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Fri Mar-21-03 07:22 PM

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123. "Turkish troops have crossed into Kurdish Northern Iraq"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Not a good move - things are going to get ugly...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The white man has all the freedom. He's got everything on his side. He's the one that will say,
niggers, Puerto Ricans, minorities, don't you write on our wall. It's graffiti. It's against the law.
Then he'll find a mountain and put his face on it. Oh, he's a bitch." - Paul Mooney


<----- Long Live The King

  

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DrNO
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Fri Mar-21-03 09:08 PM

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124. "yeah"
In response to Reply # 123


  

          

seeing as the kurds and turks hate eachother and turkey wants the oil in the region which will surely be a conflict of interest with Bush and his friends.

_
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4TztqYaemt0
http://preptimeposse.blogspot.com/

  

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LexM
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Sat Mar-22-03 08:33 AM

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125. "3rd u.s. diplomat resigns"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://truthout.org/docs_03/032303G.shtml

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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LexM
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Sun Mar-30-03 11:38 AM

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177. "text of letter"
In response to Reply # 125


  

          

http://truthout.org/docs_03/033103A.shtml

U.S. Embassy
Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia
March 19, 2003

Secretary of State Colin Powell
US Department of State
Washington, DC 20521

Dear Secretary Powell:

When I last saw you in Kabul in January, 2002 you arrived to officially open the US Embassy that I had helped reestablish in December, 2001 as the first political officer. At that time I could not have imagined that I would be writing a year later to resign from the Foreign Service because of US policies. All my adult life I have been in service to the United States. I have been a diplomat for fifteen years and the Deputy Chief of Mission in our Embassies in Sierra Leone, Micronesia, Afghanistan (briefly) and Mongolia. I have also had assignments in Somalia, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Grenada and Nicaragua. I received the State
Department's Award for Heroism as Charge d'Affaires during the evacuation of Sierra Leone in 1997. I was 26 years in the US Army/Army Reserves and participated in civil reconstruction projects after military operations in Grenada, Panama and Somalia. I attained the rank of Colonel during my military service.

This is the only time in my many years serving America that I have felt I cannot represent the policies of an Administration of the United States. I disagree with the Administration's policies on Iraq, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, North Korea and curtailment of civil liberties in the U.S. itself. I believe the Administration's policies are making the world a more dangerous, not a safer, place. I feel obligated morally and professionally to set out my very deep and firm concerns on these policies and to resign from
government service as I cannot defend or implement them.

I hope you will bear with my explanation of why I must resign. After thirty years of service to my country, my decision to resign is a huge step and I want to be clear in my reasons why I must do so.

* I disagree with the Administration's policies on Iraq

I wrote this letter five weeks ago and held it hoping that the Administration would not go to war against Iraq at this time without United Nations Security Council agreement. I strongly believe that going to war now will make the world more dangerous, not safer.

There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein is a despicable dictator and has done incredible damage to the Iraqi people and others of the region. I totally support the international community's demand that Saddam's regime destroy weapons of mass destruction.

However, I believe we should not use US military force without UNSC agreement to ensure compliance. In our press for military action now, we have created deep chasms in the international community and in important international organizations. Our policies have alienated many of our allies and created ill will in much of the world.

Countries of the world supported America's action in Afghanistan as a response to the September 11 Al Qaida attacks on America. Since then, America has lost the incredible sympathy of most of the world because of our policy toward Iraq. Much of the world considers our statements about Iraq as arrogant, untruthful and masking a hidden agenda. Leaders of moderate Moslem/Arab countries warn us about predicable outrage and anger of the youth of their countries if America enters an Arab country with the purpose of attacking Moslems/Arabs, not defending them. Attacking the Saddam regime in Iraq now is very different than expelling the same regime from Kuwait, as we did ten years ago.

I strongly believe the probable response of many Arabs of the region and Moslems of the world if the US enters Iraq without UNSC agreement will result in actions extraordinarily dangerous to America and Americans. Military action now without UNSC agreement is much more dangerous for America and the world than allowing the UN weapons inspections to proceed and subsequently taking UNSC authorized action if warranted.

I firmly believe the probability of Saddam using weapons of mass destruction is low, as he knows that using those weapons will trigger an immediate, strong and justified international response. There will be no question of action against Saddam in that case. I strongly disagree with the use of a "preemptive attack" against Iraq and believe that this preemptive attack policy will be used against us and provide justification for individuals and groups to "preemptively attack" America and American citizens.

The international military build-up is providing pressure on the regime that is resulting in a slow, but steady disclosure of Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD). We should give the weapons inspectors time to do their job. We should not give extremist Moslems/ Arabs a further cause to hate America, or give moderate Moslems a reason to join the extremists. Additionally, we must reevaluate keeping our military forces in the Middle East, particularly in Saudi Arabia. Their presence on the Islamic "holy soil" of Saudi Arabia will be an anti-American rally cry for Moslems as long as the US military remains and a strong reason, in their opinion, for actions against the US government and American citizens.

Although I strongly believe the time in not yet right for military action in Iraq, as a soldier who has been in several military operations, I hope General Franks, US and coalition forces can accomplish the missions they will be ordered do without loss of civilian or military life and without destruction of the Iraqi peoples' homes and livelihood. I strongly urge the Department of State to attempt again to stop the policy that is leading us to military action in Iraq without UNSC agreement. Timing is everything and this is not yet the time for military action.

* I disagree with the Administration's lack of effort in resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

Likewise, I cannot support the lack of effort by the Administration to use its influence to resurrect the Israeli-Palestinian peace process. As Palestinian suicide bombers kill Israelis and Israeli military operations kill Palestinians and destroy Palestinian towns and cities, the Administration has done little to end the violence. We must exert our considerable financial influence on the Israelis to stop destroying cities and on the Palestinians to curb its youth suicide bombers. I hope the Administration's long-needed "Roadmap for Peace" will have the human resources and political capital needed to finally make some progress toward
peace.

* I disagree with the Administration's lack of policy on North Korea

Additionally, I cannot support the Administration's position on North Korea. With weapons, bombs and missiles, the risks that North Korea poses are too great to ignore. I strongly believe the Administration's lack of substantive discussion, dialogue and engagement over the last two years has jeopardized security on the peninsula and the region. The situation with North Korea is dangerous for us to continue to neglect.

* I disagree with the Administration's policies on Unnecessary Curtailment of Rights in America

Further, I cannot support the Administration's unnecessary curtailment of civil rights following September 11. The investigation of those suspected of ties with terrorist organizations is critical but the legal system of America for 200 years has been based on standards that provide protections for persons during the investigation period. Solitary confinement without access to legal counsel cuts the heart out of the legal foundation on which our country stands. Additionally, I believe the Administration's secrecy in the judicial process has created an atmosphere of fear to speak out against the gutting of the protections on which America was built and the protections we encourage other countries to provide to their citizens.

Resignation

I have served my country for almost thirty years in the some of the most isolated and dangerous parts of the world. I want to continue to serve America. However, I do not believe in the policies of this Administration and cannot defend or implement them. It is with heavy heart that I must end my service to America and therefore resign due to the Administration's policies.

Mr. Secretary, to end on a personal note, under your leadership, we have made great progress in improving the organization and administration of the Foreign Service and the Department of State. I want to thank you for your extraordinary efforts to that end. I hate to leave the Foreign Service, and I wish you and our colleagues well.

Very Respectfully,

Mary A. Wright, FO-01
Deputy Chief of Mission
US Embassy
Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia


~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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foxnesn
Charter member
5240 posts
Sat Mar-22-03 06:24 PM

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130. "more lame protestors"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1470711/20030322/patti_smith.jhtml?headlines=true

Policemen standing near New York's Madison Square Garden were stocked with bags full of plastic handcuffs just in case demonstrators got unruly, as they did during the March 20 rally in Times Square where 21 people were arrested.

In the end, their fears were justified. After the four hour march from Times Square to Washington Square Park was over, hundreds of protesters refused to leave the park. They spilled into the streets, blocking traffic and causing riot police to take action. As of 6:45 p.m., 47 protesters had been arrested and more than 11 cops had been sprayed with mace, police said.

The agitators marred an otherwise peaceful and spirited demonstration that drew around 200,000 people who spanned 30 city blocks. The protesters were visibly appalled by the "shock and awe" campaign in Baghdad, but during the march they were there to be heard and seen, not to cause trouble. (Click for photos from the protest.)

And while there were plenty of eccentrics '60s survivors with gray, bushy beards, a couple wrapped in fake bloody bandages, a woman on rollerskates wearing a Raggedy Ann outfit and clown nose most of the protesters were regular folks. Some had children on their shoulders, other dragged dogs on leashes. Most were in high spirits, smiling and making small talk as they marched through the sun-splashed streets. A few celebrities also attended, including singer Patti Smith and actors Roy Scheider, Ossie Davis and Ruby Dee, reported the Associated Press.

Over 2,000 police were on duty, and undercover cops carried cell phone-sized radiation detectors as police commissioner Raymond Kelly watched the march from 35th Street, reported the AP.

The march began in Times Square and progressed downtown to Washington Square Park. Protesters raised signs that said things like "Invasion is for Nazis and Martians," "George Bush is a Weapon of Mass Destruction" and "Look Daddy, I Made a War." Many chanted catchy phrases like, "Bombs are dropping while you're shopping" and "Bush and Hitler, just the same/ The only difference is the name."

"I came out today because I think this is our last option," said 20-year-old Rae Donovan, who contributed to an impromptu sit-in at 21st Street that temporarily stalled the march. "I don't think anyone will listen unless we actually come to the streets. It's the only thing we have left."

People of various ethnicities joined the march, including a large number of Arab Americans. "I think the whole notion of a "shock & awe" campaign is terrible," said 26-year-old Jawad Saleh. "It's deliberately designed to frighten people and to kill large numbers of people and create a large amount of destruction in order to cower people. This is an evil policy. And the events have made things much more difficult for Arab Americans."

"This is not just a war about American imperialism and profit and a war for oil," added 22-year-old Laura Barisonzi. "It's also about attacks on our immigrants here."

Along the path of the march, a handful of Bush supporters dotted the crowd. Some exchanged angry words with protesters, but there were no physical confrontations.

"I understand there will be anti-war rallies," said 29-year-old DannyTyminsky, who carried a pro-Bush sign. "You gotta have them. But they should happen before the war. Now that we're at war, people need to rally behind our troops and not forget what happened at the Trade Center ."

The day included a few light moments as well. Protesters giggled as one group chanted, "D-A-D-D-Y. We know how you got your job/ Your daddy, your daddy/Bush it was your daddy." Another batch of marchers spoofed Ludacris' popular rap song "Move B----" by shouting "Move Bush, Get the way." And at one point, in an area crowded with press cameras, a woman on the sidelines turned to her companion and said, "We might be on TV. Do you think your wife will see you with me?"

When protestors reached Washington Square Park, they were met by a policeman on a megaphone telling them to vacate the premises and go home. Many did, but thousands remained in the park waving their signs, cheering and blowing whistles. In one corner, two hippies playing a banjo and a guitar led the crowd in a sing-along of "This Land is Your Land" and "This Little Light of Mine," while on the other side of the park, people with pots, trashcan lids, cowbells and drums staged a drum-in.

At 5 p.m. there were still demonstrators in the park, and police chased away some some protestors who had continued protesting on a side street.

In Washington, a few hundred protesters marched through the streets, and then gathered in front of the White House chanting, "No blood for oil." And overseas, tens of thousands of protesters in London, Japan and other major cities continued to cry out against the war.

Pro-Bush rallies were staged in Lansing, Michigan, and in Millington, Tennessee.

Despite the growing anti-war movement, polls maintain that the vast majority of Americans now support the war against Iraq. And in the Bush administration, the down-with-Bush marches seem to be falling on deaf ears. But that's clearly not going to stop the masses from gathering in the coming days.

"Change takes a while before everyone feels the effects of it," said 40-year-old Richie Richardson. "If we don't do this today, what about the next war? We may not be able to change this war, but we may have an impact that will shorten it. And we may have an impact that will tell our politicians that next time they think about doing something like this, the consequences might be different at the polls on election day."

  

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debooen
Charter member
309 posts
Sat Mar-22-03 08:25 PM

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131. "The Lame Ass Fench!!!!"
In response to Reply # 130


          

I tell you what..France and Germany are really pissing me off. The French President was making a statement the other day saying that UN and namely France would have a major say in post war Iraq. I can't believe the nerve of these people. I mean they are not supporting us in this war nor have they contributed a damn thing besides causing problems. And they think they are going to have a say in what goes on in Iraq after the war...HELL NO they don't. We came and liberated their ass in WWII when they sat back and refused to fight Hitler and watch their country get taken over...bunch of PUSSIES.

I ask all of you to NOT SUPPORT OF BUY ANYTHING FRENCH.


E-ROC
www.THEROOTSLIVE.com

E-Roc
www.TheRootsLive.com

  

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poetx
Charter member
58768 posts
Sun Mar-23-03 10:05 AM

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132. "combat pay is UP TO $150.00 per month."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

that's right. one-fitty.

they said that on ABC the other night. UP TO $150 a month. waiters make more than that shit in TIPS.

we spend more (and i say WE, cuz if you live in the US and pay taxes, or buy shit from businesses that pay taxes, you doin the 'ante up' too) than the next 9 countries in the world do on their militaries COMBINED.

and yet our troops are making sub-minimum, getting shitty health care (after our pedophile uncle, Sam, gets at em), and being put in harm's way to fight optional wars with countries that ain't even effing with us.

each 'smart bomb', the tomahawk cruise missiles, cost over $1M. they licked off about 500 of them joints on the first day of "shock and awwww sh*t". half a billion. like it wasn't a think. when it comes to the hardware, they spending like Jermaine Dupri and Puffy on they birthday.

its obscene. i support the troops by requesting that they're asses be promptly brought back here.



peace & blessings,

x.

"I'm on the Zoloft to keep from killing y'all." - Iron Mike

peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just
focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and
not having much to show for it. (c) mad

  

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foxnesn
Charter member
5240 posts
Sun Mar-23-03 01:50 PM

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134. "um...."
In response to Reply # 132


  

          

did you forget that people are not forced to sign up for the military here in the US??? if they dont like the pay then they should not have joined. plus, most dont do it for the pay, they do it for the experience and they do it to help pay off college.

  

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CTownBallah
Member since Oct 13th 2002
650 posts
Mon Mar-24-03 05:44 AM

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138. "RE: combat pay is UP TO $150.00 per month."
In response to Reply # 132


          

They don't need money while in combat. They get hooked up after they leave. Many of my friends who joined (voluntarily unlike some countries) got a free education afterwards. $100,000 for 3 years work, not bad, only negative is they own your ass for the rest of your life, but noone forced them to join. Plus once you gain seniority, and pursue other careers, employers often pay them more, not to mention governmental and military positions many of them hold afterwards. I'm more upset at the chance of DEATH than their low pay.

  

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CTownBallah
Member since Oct 13th 2002
650 posts
Mon Mar-24-03 05:45 AM

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139. "Suave Bro - where ya at????"
In response to Reply # 138


          

anybody catch suave bro's reply in the pow thread that got locked. I'd love to hear from that coward again.

  

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Monique
Charter member
2511 posts
Sun Mar-23-03 09:42 PM

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135. "ANALYSIS: DOUBTS RAISED ON STRATEGY............"
In response to Reply # 0
Sun Mar-23-03 10:00 PM

  

          

www.thewashingtonpost.com

ANALYSIS
U.S. CASUALTIES EXPOSE RISKS,RAISE DOUBTS ABOUT STRATEGY
By: Thomas E. Ricks
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday,March 24,2003; A01

"Iraqui troops and militia used ruses,ambushes and other guerilla tactics yesterday that exploited the risks inherent in the fast moving Pentagon war strategy,inflicting more than a score of American casualties and raising questions about how effective the U.S. approach has been in persuading Iraqui troops and civilians that President Saddam Hussein's removal is inevitable"
More..........


HMMM.PRETZELS,NO WATER,POUNDING FIST.I WOULD NOT WANT TO BE ON THE STAFF RIGHT ABOUT NOW.

President: What Happened Hereeeee!!!!!!!!!!!.
Staff: But,Sir.,No Disrespect,But You Gave The Go Ahead To Act Before Planned.
ARI FLEITCHER: Ari Steps In And Save The Day As Usual.

Well,maybe I do want to be a fly on the wall as the blame go around.

***********************************************************
NELLY: I'm Humble In Life Taking Nothing For Granted

AFRICA: www.bbcnews.com

THE BROKER: John Grisham

  

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akon
Charter member
26987 posts
Mon Mar-24-03 05:18 AM

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137. "its war goddamit"
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Mar-24-03 05:20 AM

  

          

i was watching the news today and they were saying how the u.s soldiers were complaining because iraqi soldiers are wearing civilian clothes and driving civilian vehicles. and i am like, what are they expected to do? call ahead and say, this is where we are, these are the kinds of cars we are driving and we are wearing brown camouflages, with this or that colour scheme, come and get us? especially when the price you have to pay is your life? and the enemy is so much greater? and then they are talking about the geneva convention. a bit hypocritical considering the u.s is going against the un resolution. should be the last people talking about flounting international law..( and i guess let's not mention the afghani pow's.)

this is such an unfair war it doesn't even make sense (not even getting into the pros and cons of it). why not pick an enemy that at least can put up a fight?

and isn't it messed up that that woman's son is a pow or mia and yet they have the nerve to go interview her for t.v. where's the moral sense of let the woman mourn or come to terms with the situation. everything does not have to be televised. a parents grief should be worth more than ratings.

and for all those that dont believe the media is biased: why aren't we hearing anything about the iraqi's that have lost their lives. they have families too, dont they? be unbiased: show us both points of view...

this war is like a bad movie, for real., wouldn't even get good reviews if it was a movie just cause its really not much of a fight.

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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foxnesn
Charter member
5240 posts
Mon Mar-24-03 09:37 AM

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142. "you said a lot"
In response to Reply # 137


  

          

>i was watching the news today and they were saying how the
>u.s soldiers were complaining because iraqi soldiers are
>wearing civilian clothes and driving civilian vehicles. and
>i am like, what are they expected to do? call ahead and
>say, this is where we are, these are the kinds of cars we
>are driving and we are wearing brown camouflages, with this
>or that colour scheme, come and get us? especially when the
>price you have to pay is your life? and the enemy is so much
>greater?

yea, they shouldnt be complaining. thats like during the revolutionary war when patriots fought guerrila style and the redcoats lined up to be shot. all is fair in love and war.

and then they are talking about the geneva
>convention. a bit hypocritical considering the u.s is going
>against the un resolution. should be the last people
>talking about flounting international law..( and i guess
>let's not mention the afghani pow's.)

the US waited 4 years for the UN to do something. saddam broke the resolution in 1998, its high time we make him pay!
>
>this is such an unfair war it doesn't even make sense (not
>even getting into the pros and cons of it). why not pick an
>enemy that at least can put up a fight?

this question makes no sense considering the context of this war.
>
>and isn't it messed up that that woman's son is a pow or mia
>and yet they have the nerve to go interview her for t.v.
>where's the moral sense of let the woman mourn or come to
>terms with the situation. everything does not have to be
>televised. a parents grief should be worth more than
>ratings.
>
its a free country. she didnt have to do the interview but she did. so whats your point?

>and for all those that dont believe the media is biased: why
>aren't we hearing anything about the iraqi's that have lost
>their lives. they have families too, dont they? be
>unbiased: show us both points of view...

the media does, you just have to search.
>
>this war is like a bad movie, for real., wouldn't even get
>good reviews if it was a movie just cause its really not
>much of a fight.

what?

  

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silly daemon
Member since Mar 17th 2003
7 posts
Mon Mar-24-03 04:19 PM

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146. "RE: you said a lot"
In response to Reply # 142


          

the US waited 4 years for the UN to do something. saddam broke the resolution in 1998, its high time we make him pay!

Let's not kid ourselves here, the US really has no interest in the UN or any of its resolutions. it's acting on it's own accord and trying to use the facade of the UN as a cover. it'll listen to the UN when it's convenient and ignore it when it's not.

the media does, you just have to search.

i doubt that. the coverage we get here is much different than the coverage the arab world gets (not that that news reporting is particularly unbiased). plus embedding journalists into military units in its nature causes them to lose their subjectivity.

  

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foxnesn
Charter member
5240 posts
Tue Mar-25-03 07:39 AM

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150. "subjectivity??"
In response to Reply # 146


  

          

they lose their objectivity not subjectivity

  

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silly daemon
Member since Mar 17th 2003
7 posts
Tue Mar-25-03 12:05 PM

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154. "RE: subjectivity??"
In response to Reply # 150


          

yeah sorry, you know what i meant =).

  

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PeeWeeDove
Member since Jan 29th 2003
8 posts
Mon Mar-24-03 04:02 PM

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145. "Respect or Disrespect Canada?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

After extensively reading all of the posts ergarding this touchy issue, I have 1 question for any of those that have freely given their opinions on this subject: Just how do you feel with regards to Canada, and more specifically Canada's decision not to support "the coalition"?
I ask this because I am a Canadian, and a proud one at that. For years we have been looked upon as the little brother to America, and many times at that our actions have not been appreciated nor respected by the US gov't. I have never judged American people by the actions of their gov't, which leads my level of curiousity as to how "the people" of the US REALLY feel about your neighbour to the North?

"They say that goodness in life belongs to those who believe...so I believe" Mos Def

  

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MicheleQJ
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5380 posts
Tue Mar-25-03 06:41 AM

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147. "respect"
In response to Reply # 145


          

.

http://myspace.com/139003080
http://www.last.fm/user/micheleqj/
http://myspace.com/alluswe
http://myspace.com/fermentedspirits
http://www.last.fm/music/Alluswe

  

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PeeWeeDove
Member since Jan 29th 2003
8 posts
Tue Mar-25-03 06:31 PM

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158. "but y"
In response to Reply # 147


  

          

hella interested in your reasoning....

  

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MicheleQJ
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5380 posts
Tue Mar-25-03 06:43 AM

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148. "article: Carlyle Group"
In response to Reply # 0


          

'Ex-presidents club' gets fat on conflict
http://www.observer.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12239,919897,00.html

High-flying venture capital firm Carlyle Group cashes in when the tanks roll, writes Jamie Doward

Sunday March 23, 2003
The Observer

It is the sort of thing they really could have done without. For 15 years one of America's most powerful venture capital groups has tried to play down suggestions that its multi-billion dollar funds get fat on the back of global conflict. But now, with the invasion of Iraq under way, a new book chronicling the relatively short history of the Carlyle Group threatens to draw attention to the company's close links with the Pentagon.
Dan Briody, author of the Iron Triangle, Inside the Secret World of the Carlyle Group, alleges the company's executives were so worried about his book they told staff not to talk to him. The Carlyle Group rejects this and argues the book is little more than a cuttings job based around some of the more crazy conspiracy theories found on the internet. It also points out that only around 7 per cent of its funds are invested in defence companies, far less than several other venture capital groups.

'Peel away the layers of factual errors and self-righteousness and all you're left with is baseless innuendo. This book should be exposed for what it is: a compilation of recycled conspiracy theories masquerading as investigative journalism,' said Chris Ullman, Carlyle's spokesman.

But Briody's account of how an upstart venture capi tal firm went from nothing to managing funds of nearly $14 billion in just 15 years, earning investors returns of around 36 per cent, is likely to reinforce the controversial image of the Carlyle Group and raise concerns about its influence in Washington and beyond.

Sometimes called the Ex-Presidents Club, Carlyle has a glittering array of ex-politicians and big league bankers on its board. Former secretary of state James Baker is managing director while ex-secretary of defence Frank Carlucci is chairman. George Bush senior is an adviser. John Major heads up its European operations. To give the conspiracy theorists plenty of ammunition, US newspapers have also highlighted the fact that current Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was a wrestling partner of Carlucci's at Princeton and the two have remained close friends ever since.

Interestingly though, Briody's book chronicles how Carlyle was founded by two relative unknowns - Stephen Norris, a former executive with the Marriott hotels group, and David Rubenstein, a Washington lawyer and former policy assistant to Jimmy Carter. The two men saved Marriott millions by spotting a tax loophole that the company exploited to great effect. Buoyed by their success, Norris and Ruben stein struck out on their own and recruited two other co-founders, Marriott executive Dan D'Aniello and corporate financier William Conway.

Initially the group - named after New York's Carlyle hotel - shied away from the defence sector and its early investment record was spectacularly unsuccessful. It backed a management-led buyout of Caterair and appointed George W Bush to the board. The company bombed and was quickly branded Crater Air by Wall Street. Norris, who presided over the deal, jumped ship, followed by Bush Jr shortly before the company's woes became public in 1994.

The appointment of Carlucci to the company board marked a new phase in Carlyle's history. It was Carlucci who spearheaded the $130 million acquisition of BDM Consulting in 1990. The company was a specialist in the defence contracting business and had a formidable network of contacts thanks to its CEO, Earle Williams, a close friend of Carlucci. It was a good time for the Carlyle Group. Defence contracts were being slashed as the Cold War ended and cheap buyout opportunities were everywhere.

Carlyle identified a key target: Vinnell. Few people have heard of Vinnell. It started life building airstrips, but by the 1970s was training Saudi troops to protect oil fields. Unlike other US firms it stayed in Saudi Arabia during the first Gulf War and by the time Carlyle snapped the firm up in 1992 it had built up the country's national guard from 26,000 to 70,000 troops. Carlyle sold its interest in Vinnell in 1997.

But perhaps Carlyle's most famous acquisition was United Defense in 1997. The company had developed a huge 40-tonne howitzer, the Crusader, which, despite widespread opposition from the army, was commissioned by the Pentagon. The $665m contract was signed just two weeks after the attacks on the twin towers and less than a month later Carlyle decided to take the company public in a move that was to earn the group nearly $240m. Months later the Crusader programme was scrapped while United Defense was handed a new contract to build a lighter gun.

At the same time it emerged that the bin Laden family - estranged from their terrorist son - was an investor in the Carlyle fund that owned United Defense. The backlash was ferocious. Carlyle hired a PR firm but the group was under siege. In an astonishing move Democrat Representative Cynthia McKinney cited the Carlyle Group as an example of an organisation 'close to this administration poised to make huge profits off America's new war'. The bin Laden family sold their stakes in the fund. A spokesman said their investment was valued at 'only' around $2m, although Briody quotes insiders who say the family's investment had been significantly greater in the past.

In the wake of 11 September came a fear of anthrax attack. One company that benefited was Pittsburgh- based IT Group, which won a number of contracts to clean up anthrax-infected buildings, including the Hart Senate Office Building. Carlyle owned 25 per cent of the firm, which it subsequently sold on. Likewise its investment in US Investigation Services, a company that specialises in checking the background of employees, saw business improve dramatically.

'I do not exaggerate when I say that Carlyle is taking over the world in government contract work, particularly defence work,' one employee told Briody. Other Carlyle companies also benefited, including EC&G which makes X-ray scanners, Composite Structures, a maker of metal-bond structures in fighter jets and missiles, and Lier Siegler Services Inc, a major military contractor, providing logistics support.

Carlyle - whose high-profile investors include George Soros and Saudi Arabia's Prince Alwaleed bin Talal - refutes suggestions it profits from war. Co-founder William Conway even went on record saying 'no one wants to be a beneficiary of 11 September.'

This may be true, but unfortunately for the Carlyle Group its investments are beneficiaries of this new era of multilateral conflict. Indeed, a case can be made that even those companies Carlyle wouldn't class as defence investments - and which aren't examined by Briody - have benefited.

Last month it bought CSX Lines, an ocean carrier firm that specialises in shipping heavy equipment. One of its biggest customers is the US military. Late last year it bought Firth Rixson, a specialist engineering firm that makes aerospace parts. It also has a 33 per cent stake in Qinetiq, the government's Defence Evaluation and Research Agency.

Whatever Carlyle says, its image as being at the apex of what Eisenhower termed the 'military industrial complex' endures.


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MicheleQJ
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149. "article: The Big Lie"
In response to Reply # 0


          

The Big Lie
by Russ Baker
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030407&s=baker

ow bad can things get, how fast? Are we already at the point where literally nothing can derail the war machine? That's exactly what some powerful media outlets seem to have decided, with predictable effects on public opinion and policy. In its March 3 issue, Newsweek disclosed that the Bush Administration had deliberately suppressed information exculpating Iraq--information from the same reliable source previously cited by the Administration as confirming that Iraq had developed weapons of mass destruction since the 1991 Gulf War. As damning as this disclosure was, Newsweek chose to underplay it, perhaps out of a belief that the Bush Administration's Big Lie techniques have become so pervasive that another instance of tendentious truth-twisting is no longer front-page news.

Here's the background: In the summer of 1995 Saddam's then-son-in-law, Lieut. Gen. Hussein Kamel, former minister of Iraq's military industry and the person in charge of its nuclear/chemical/biological programs, defected and provided what was deemed scrupulously accurate, detailed accounts of those weapons. Kamel's information has been cited as central evidence and a key reason for attacking Iraq. In his February 5 presentation to the UN Security Council, Secretary of State Colin Powell said: "It took years for Iraq to finally admit that it had produced four tons of the deadly nerve agent VX. A single drop of VX on the skin will kill in minutes. Four tons. The admission only came out after inspectors collected documentation as a result of the defection of Hussein Kamel, Saddam Hussein's late son-in-law."

But Newsweek's John Barry revealed that the Administration had excised a central component of Kamel's testimony--that he had personal knowledge that Iraq had "destroyed all its chemical and biological weapons stocks and the missiles to deliver them." To be sure, Kamel said, Iraq had not abandoned its WMD ambitions, had retained the design and engineering details, and was likely to return to production given an opportunity. But his last information was that Iraq's VX arsenal no longer existed.

According to the story, UN inspectors had reasons to hush up this revelation, as they were trying to bluff Saddam into revealing more. But what is Powell's excuse for using only half of Kamel's claim? And why did Newsweek and the rest of the American media make so little of this major story?

Newsweek chose to run a short, 500-word item in its "Periscope" section rather than put the story on the cover or make it the focal point of a longer article showing that the Bush Administration is rushing to war for no reason at all.

I was curious why Newsweek did not think this warranted a more muscular presentation. Communications director Ken Weine argued that the mag breaks many of its best stories in short sections like "Periscope," citing as an example a brief piece two years ago showing that Sony had fabricated print movie reviews, a piece, he noted, that garnered worldwide attention.

But fake movie reviews flacking dubious entertainment and fake missile reviews flacking a war in which thousands may die are two different things entirely, and it is a sad comment on the media that such comparisons would even be made.

Newsweek, and Barry in particular, deserve kudos for bringing this important item to the public's attention at all. But if Newsweek's editors had the guts to put something like this on the cover, with the kind of dramatic headline they use for lesser subjects, they could really affect the debate. Instead, that issue of Newsweek featured a cover story on the African-American gender gap in jobs, education and other areas--a worthy story, but nothing that could not have waited a week.

For what it's worth, one insider explained that Newsweek has changed and no longer tries to shake the earth on major issues of the day, preferring to tweak the zeitgeist on softer things or muse elegantly about the "big picture" behind the details.

Perhaps it's not surprising that other media failed to pick up on the Kamel story: The big papers and magazines hate to acknowledge they've been scooped by competitors. Of course, you might think they'd want to outdo Newsweek with some hard-hitting inquiries of their own. You'd be wrong. It's not that the American media have ignored Iraq--obviously, it's been a near-obsession. But in the absence of intrepid investigative reporting and editorial courage, they smothered the audience in inconsequential material about the most consequential of topics.

The Hussein Kamel revelation is probably the biggest Iraq story to get punted, but it isn't the only significant example. It's worth noting that British revelations that the National Security Agency spied on diplomats representing UN Security Council members during the Iraq deliberations got a small mention in the Washington Post and prompted no questions at Bush's press conference. Another revelation, that a British government employee was arrested for allegedly leaking this information, which Daniel Ellsberg says is more timely and potentially more important than his own Pentagon Papers in informing the public, again got little notice in this country. And the unprecedented resignations of two career US diplomats over Iraq policy hasn't generated any noteworthy examinations of how people inside the government really feel about the race to hostilities.

Cumulatively, Barry's item on Kamel, the revelation that Colin Powell was citing a graduate student's thesis as British "intelligence" and a new revelation that more British "evidence" of Iraqi nuclear arms development cited by the Administration was (according to weapons inspectors themselves) fabricated suggest that a monstrous Big Lie is in process--an effort to construct falsified evidence and to trick this country and the world.

How's that for zeitgeist material, Newsweek?

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zewari
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Tue Mar-25-03 09:02 AM

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151. "Cheney's Lesbian Daughter en route to Baghdad..."
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Mar-25-03 09:18 AM

  

          

... to serve as human shield:

http://www.albawaba.com/news/index.php3?sid=245183&lang=e&dir=news

_椺欫_SIG_椺欫_

Stand out firmly for Justice as witnesses in front of God, even
against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or your desires, lest you should deviate from Justice. Remember God is the best of all Protectors and well acquainted with all that you do.
-Quran 4:135

"Don't be deceived when they tell you things are better now. Even if there's no poverty to be seen because the poverty's been hidden. Even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which industries foist on you and even if it seems to you that you never had so much, that is only the slogan of those who still have much more than you. Don't be taken in when they paternally pat you on the shoulder and say that there's no inequality worth speaking of and no more reason to fight because if you believe them they will be completely in charge in their marble homes and granite banks from which they rob the people of the world under the pretence of bringing them culture. Watch out, for as soon as it pleases them they'll send you out to protect their gold in wars whose weapons, rapidly developed by servile scientists, will become more and more deadly until they can with a flick of the finger tear a million of you to pieces."
--Jean Paul Marat, 18th Century French Visionary (and revolutionary), murdered in his bathtub by Royalist Charlotte Corday

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."
-- Johann W. von Goethe

__________________________

www.supportblackowned.org

  

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AZ
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Tue Mar-25-03 09:10 AM

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152. "wow"
In response to Reply # 151


          

------------------------------
"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Hermann Goering

  

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foxnesn
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Tue Mar-25-03 01:54 PM

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156. "yo, did you read an american source? cheney's staff say"
In response to Reply # 151


  

          

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31707

Cheney daughter 'human shield'?
Despite claims of Arab daily, VP's staff calls story 'completely false'

Posted: March 25, 2003
3:15 p.m. Eastern

While Bush administration officials have publicly ignored the efforts of anti-war protesters volunteering to serve as human shields in Iraq, an Arab daily reports Vice President Dick Cheney is about to embark on a trip to persuade one woman to abandon her stance his daughter.

According to the London based Al Quds Al Arabi, Cheney is expected to arrive in the Jordanian capital, Amman, next Friday to carry out a "social mission."


Vice President Dick Cheney speaks to troops stationed at Al-Udeid Airbase in Qatar, March 17.


Citing news reports circulating in Amman, the newspaper claimed Cheney hoped to convince his daughter, who it said was currently staying at a hotel in Amman, not to travel to Baghdad with a group of volunteers that plans to form human shields against the coalition attacks on Iraq.

Elizabeth Cheney, 36, is deputy assistant secretary for Near-East affairs at the State Department. She lives in Washington with her husband and three children.

Mary Cheney, 34, just completed a master's degree at Denver University. Her open homosexuality sparked controversy during her father's vice presidential campaign in 2000.

Cheney's spokesperson laughed at the Arab report.

"I'm mystified as to where that came from," Jennifer Millerwise told WorldNetDaily. "It's completely false."

Millerwise said neither the vice president nor his daughters were headed to Amman.

"There are no true elements in that story," she said.


  

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foxnesn
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Tue Mar-25-03 01:47 PM

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155. "UN UPRISING!!!!!!!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2886805.stm

Uprising reported in Basra


Why Basra matters
British forces on the outskirts of Basra have reported that a violent civilian uprising against Saddam Hussein's regime has begun in the southern Iraqi city.

Major General Peter Wall, British Chief of Staff at Allied Central Command in Qatar, confirmed that it appeared an uprising had taken place, but that it was in its infancy and British troops were "keen to exploit its potential".

According to military intelligence officials, Iraqi troops in the city turned mortar fire on their own civilians in an attempt to crush the unrest, but Baghdad denies any revolt has occurred.

Further north, the Pentagon reports that a major battle has taken place between Karbala and Najaf, with between 150 and 300 Iraqi casualties.

A defence official said Iraqi ground forces had tried to hit US forces of the US Seventh Cavalry with rocket-propelled grenades.

A couple of pieces of US equipment were damaged but there are no reports of US casualties.

The BBC's Nick Childs at the Pentagon said it appears to have been an intense engagement, but does not appear to be the start of the push on Baghdad.

IRAQ CAMPAIGN



Map: Military operations
Iraq's Republican Guard

The Iraqi capital is coming under renewed bombardment from coalition bombers - starting at 2315 (2015 GMT) the city was rocked by a series of explosions.

The BBC's Paul Wood in Baghdad said that after one impact Iraqi state television broadcast went off the air, replaced by static.

He says broadcasting resumed after 15-20 minutes, but the signal is weaker, indicating that back-up facilities have been brought into use.

US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has been warning Iraqi citizens for some days to steer clear of TV facilities.

As coalition forces push on towards Baghdad air strikes have been targeting the Medina division of the elite Republican Guards, digging in for what both sides agree will probably be a decisive encounter, says the BBC's Paul Wood.

In fighting elsewhere:


Two British soldiers from the Queen's Royal Lancers were killed and two seriously injured when their Challenger tank was hit in a "friendly fire" incident during fighting early on Tuesday on the outskirts of Basra


After securing the route through the town of Nasiriya - about 370 km (230 miles) south-east of Baghdad - US forces seize a hospital that appears to have been used by Iraqi forces to store weapons


British Royal Marines move into positions along the Iraqi border with Iran, amid worries that Iran might try to exploit the chaos caused by the war

From the outskirts of Basra, British troops have bombarded Iraqi mortar positions in the city in an effort to support the uprising, according to journalist Richard Gaisford, who is with British forces just outside.

He said that the British troops were using a system of radar tracking to pinpoint and then attack the mortar positions.

Coalition planes have also dropped two very large bombs on the Baath Party headquarters in the city, which is reported to have been reduced to rubble.

The main Shia Iraqi opposition group, the Iran-based Supreme Assembly for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, which claims connections in the city said a revolt was taking place.

There have been multiple exchanges of fire between Iraqi forces on outskirts of Basra and British troops throughout the day.

Human shields

British military spokesman Colonel Chris Vernon, reported that two British tank soldiers had been killed during the fighting.

Earlier Colonel Vernon told the BBC that Iraqi forces were using human shields to defend Basra.




In pictures: Coalition advances
Iraqi Information Minister Mohammed al-Sahhaf denied that any revolt had taken place in Basra.

"The situation is stable. Resistance is continuing and we are teaching them more lessons," he told Qatar-based al-Jazeera television.

The BBC's Tim Franks who is on the Iraq-Kuwait border, says that if reports of the uprising are true, this is what the British forces had hoped for.

"This is just the sort of encouraging indication we have been looking for... I think the uprising may in a sense put the boot on the other foot," Major General Wall said.

Humanitarian crisis

Until now, there has been no evidence of any support for British and American forces inside Basra.

Rather, the coalition forces believed that around 1,000 die-hard Saddam Hussein supporters were based in the city and keeping the population in check, our correspondent says.

The United Nations has warned of a potential humanitarian crisis in Iraq's second city, which is home to about 1.5 million people.

HAVE YOUR SAY
We have created an horrific problem for the whole world

James Kelly, UK


Read more of your comments

Some 100,000 children are at risk of disease as fighting there has continued for four days, disrupting supplies of drinking water, a UN spokesman said.

A UK naval ship loaded up in Kuwait with stocks of food, water and other supplies is still waiting to dock in the nearby Iraqi port of Umm Qasr as work continues to clear mines from the sea there.

The advance of coalition forces has also been hampered by fierce sandstorms - BBC correspondents travelling with coalition troops say units have been halted, with visibility reduced to just a few metres.


  

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foxnesn
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157. "AN uprising..i hate typos"
In response to Reply # 155


  

          

n/m

  

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MicheleQJ
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Wed Mar-26-03 07:00 AM

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160. "once again you took to the lie too soon"
In response to Reply # 155


          

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=574&ncid=574&e=1&u=/nm/20030326/wl_nm/iraq_basra_dc_7

TEHRAN (Reuters) - An Iraqi Shi'ite Muslim opposition group said on Wednesday there had been disturbances, but no uprising, in the southern Iraqi city of Basra.

A spokesman for the Tehran-based Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq (news - web sites) (SCIRI) said there were "some disturbances" in Basra. Asked if this amounted to an uprising, the spokesman, Abu Islam, said: "No, there is no uprising."


British Prime Minister Tony Blair (news - web sites) said on Wednesday he believed there had been a limited uprising against President Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) in Basra overnight.


A SCIRI source said later: "Some disturbances took place last night in different parts of Basra, but it was not widespread and it was not an intifada (uprising). The people chanted slogans against Saddam."


The source said it was not clear if shortages of water and electricity had provoked the unrest in Basra. He said residents had reported that U.S.-led forces had attacked the governor's office and buildings of intelligence services.


SCIRI's denial that a Basra revolt was in progress contradicted an earlier statement by another SCIRI spokesman in Tehran, who had said on Tuesday he could confirm media reports that an uprising was taking place in the city.


Iraq's information minister denied the reports.


SCIRI draws its support from Iraq's Shi'ite majority and has contacts around the country. Basra was the scene of a failed Shi'ite insurrection after the 1991 Gulf War (news - web sites).


Blair told parliament on Wednesday: "In relation to what has happened in Basra overnight, truthfully reports are confused, but we believe there was some limited form of uprising."


He said U.S. and British commanders had to be sure that they had enough forces to protect any uprising from soldiers loyal to Saddam before they encouraged a rebellion.

_______________________________________________
and from Tuesday
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/DBT000259.htm

British source says unaware of any Basra uprising

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



KUWAIT, March 25 (Reuters) - British military officials said on Tuesday they had no information on any popular uprising in Iraq's second city of Basra, but added that they would do everything possible to encourage such a revolt.

"We don't know anything about a Basra uprising," said a British military source in Central Command in Qatar.

British television networks have said there are reports of an armed uprising in the city.

A British spokesman in Kuwait said British and U.S. forces wanted the people of Basra to attack soldiers loyal to Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.

"We'll help them every which way we can," said British spokesman Chris Vernon, adding that British forces were looking to weaken Saddam's power structure in the city and had captured a top official of his Ba'ath party there earlier in the day.

"We are helping them when we took out probably the most senior Ba'ath party guy in Basra this morning. That will have sent a shockwave through them," Vernon told a news conference.





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foxnesn
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Wed Mar-26-03 01:39 PM

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168. "um..."
In response to Reply # 160


  

          

i just posted a link that reported the story as is. i didnt jump on the lie, i was simply posting it as developing news.

  

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NuttKace
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Tue Mar-25-03 08:44 PM

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159. "RE: A few questions..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Let me first say that I'm trying to take an objective view in these OKP war discussions. It's not about being right or wrong. I'm not trying to change people's minds, and I'm not trying to show everyone how intelligent I think I am. Okay, just curious:

How come we aren't trying to free other countries ruled by evil dictators?

How come we are just now trying to "free Iraq"?

How come us and other countries can have nukes and chemical weapons and what not, but not Iraq?

Aren't we the only ones to use the A bomb or anything clsoe to it?

Do any other countries have military bases in our country?

Don't we have them in other countries all over the world?

Why is that?


That's just some I could think of off hand, more maybe to come.

Thanks.

  

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MicheleQJ
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Wed Mar-26-03 07:07 AM

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161. "good questions"
In response to Reply # 159


          

>Let me first say that I'm trying to take an objective view
>in these OKP war discussions. It's not about being right or
>wrong. I'm not trying to change people's minds, and I'm not
>trying to show everyone how intelligent I think I am. Okay,
>just curious:
>
>How come we aren't trying to free other countries ruled by
>evil dictators?

*other oppressive regimes, such as Turkey are our allies
*meanwhile, we're still working to help overthrow the democratically elected leader of Venezuela (another oil rich country)

>How come we are just now trying to "free Iraq"?

9/11 gave a pretext, officials quotes as saying go after iraq 'sweep everything up'; iraq switched to selling oil in euros which could undermine our economy if opec followed (not necessarily likely though); strategic dominance of the area; oil (see links)
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/031903_perfect_storm_1.html
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/032503_perfect_storm_2.html


>How come us and other countries can have nukes and chemical
>weapons and what not, but not Iraq?

*such as israel? north korea? pakistan? good question

>Aren't we the only ones to use the A bomb or anything clsoe
>to it?

*yup, and we're once again firing depleted uranium ammunition all over the place - cancer rates in iraq rose about 600% since before the 1st gulf war
*not to mention the new MOAB that while not radioactive has the explosive force of a small nuke

>Do any other countries have military bases in our country?

*nooooo!

>Don't we have them in other countries all over the world?

*in very many countries

>Why is that?

*security--- you need that when you're treating the rest of the world as your plantation

>That's just some I could think of off hand, more maybe to
>come.

*just my answers, thanks for asking

>Thanks.

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MicheleQJ
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Wed Mar-26-03 07:09 AM

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162. "article: SIX DAYS OF SHAME"
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SIX DAYS OF SHAME Mar 26 2003

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12776744&method=full&siteid=50143

TODAY is a day of shame for the British military as it declares the Iraqi city of Basra, with a stricken population of 600,000, a "military target".

You will not read or hear those words in the establishment media that claims to speak for Britain.

But they are true. With Basra, shame is now our signature, forged by Blair and Bush.

Having destroyed its water and power supplies, cut off food supply routes and having failed to crack its human defences, they are now preparing to lay siege to Iraq's second city which is more than 40 per cent children.

What an ignominious moment in British history. Here is an impoverished country under attack by a superpower, the United States, which has unimaginable wealth and the world's most destructive weapons, and its "coalition" accomplice, Britain, which boasts one of the world's best "professional" armies.

Believing their own propaganda, the military brass has been stunned by the Iraqi resistance.

They have tried to belittle the militia defending Basra with lurid stories that its fighters are killing each other.

The truth is that the Iraqis are fighting like lions to defend not a tyrant but their homeland. It is a truth the overwhelming majority of decent Britons will admire.

The historical comparison Tony Blair and his propagandists fear is that of the British defending themselves against invasion. That happened 60 years ago and now "we" are the rapacious invaders.

Yesterday, Blair said that 400,000 Iraqi children had died in the past five years from malnutrition and related causes. He said "huge stockpiles of humanitarian aid" and clean water awaited them in Kuwait, if only the Iraqi regime would allow safe passage.

In fact, voluminous evidence, including that published by the United Nations Children's Fund, makes clear that the main reason these children have died is an enduring siege, a 12-year embargo driven by America and Britain.

As of last July, $5.4billion worth of humanitarian supplies, approved by the UN and paid for by the Iraqi government, were blocked by Washington, with the Blair government's approval. The former assistant secretary general of the UN, Denis Halliday, who was sent to Iraq to set up the "oil for food programme", described the effects of the embargo as "nothing less than genocide". Similar words have been used by his successor, Hans Von Sponeck.

Both men resigned in protest, saying the embargo merely reinforced the power of Saddam.

Both called Blair a liar.

And now Blair's troops are firing their wire-guided missiles to "soften up" Basra.

I have walked the city's streets, along a road blown to pieces by a US missile. The casualties were children, of course, because children are everywhere. I held a handkerchief over my face as I stood in a school playground with a teacher and several hundred malnourished youngsters.

The dust blew in from the southern battlefields of the 1991 Gulf War, which have never been cleaned up because the US and British governments have denied Iraq the specialist equipment.

The dust, Dr Jawad Al-Ali told me, carries "the seeds of our death". In the children's wards of Basra's main hospital, deaths from a range of hitherto unseen cancers are common and specialists have little doubt that up to half the population of southern Iraq will die from cancers linked to the use of a weapon of mass destruction used by the Americans and British - uranium tipped shells and missiles.


ONCE again, the Americans are deploying what Professor Doug Rokke, a former US Army physicist, calls "a form of nuclear weapon that contaminates everything and everyone".

Today, each round fired by US tanks contains 4,500 grams of solid uranium, whose particles, breathed or ingested, can cause cancer.

This, and the use by both the Allies of new kinds of cluster bombs, is being covered up.

Once again, the British public is being denied the reality of war.

Images of bandaged children in hospital wards are appearing on TV but you do not see the result of a Tornado's cluster bombing.

You are not being shown children scalped by shrapnel, with legs reduced to bloody pieces of string.

Such images are "not acceptable", because they will disturb viewers - and the authorities do not want that. These "unseen" images are the truth. Iraqi parents have to look at their mutilated children, so why shouldn't those of us, in whose name they were slaughtered, see what they see?

Why shouldn't we share their pain? Why shouldn't we see the true nature of this criminal invasion?

Other wars were sanitised, allowing them to be repeated.

If you have satellite TV, try to find the Al Jazeera channel, which has distinguished itself with its coverage. When the Americans bombed Afghanistan, one of their "smart" bombs destroyed the Al Jazeera office in Kabul. Few believe it was an accident. Rather, it was a testimony to the channel's independent journalism.

Remember, it is not those who oppose this war who need to justify themselves, regardless of Blair's calls to "support our troops". There is only one way to support them - bring them home without delay.

In 1932, Iraqis threw out their British colonial rulers. In 1958, they got rid of the Hashemite monarchy.

Iraqis have shown they can overthrow dictators against the odds. So why have they not been able to throw out Saddam?

Because the US and Britain armed him and propped him up while it suited them, making sure that when they tired of him, they would be the only alternative to his rule and the profiteers of his nation's resources. Imperialism has always functioned like that.

The "new Iraq", as Blair calls it, will have many models, such as Haiti, the Dominican Republic and Nicaragua, all of them American conquests and American ruled until Washington allowed a vicious dictatorship to take over.

Saddam only came to power after the Americans helped install his Ba'ath Party in 1979. "That was my favourite coup," said the CIA officer in charge.

Keep in mind the cynicism behind these truths when you next hear Blair's impassioned insincerity - and when you glimpse, if you can, the "unacceptable" images of children killed and mangled in your name, and in the cause of what the Prime Minister calls "our simple patriotism".

It's the kind of patriotism, wrote Tolstoy, "that is nothing else but a means of obtaining for the rulers their ambitions and covetous desires, and for the ruled the abdication of human dignity, reason and conscience."

www.johnpilger.com

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Xpiritmental
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713 posts
Wed Mar-26-03 08:54 AM

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163. "How we won the american revolution"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

we had a small army consisting mostly of civilians with guns. our armies had little to no training compared to enemy armies
we were fighting for what we considered our homeland
a big reason for our victory was that british supply lines were stretched so thin and it became to expensive for britain to continue fighting a war thousands of miles away from home
we broke "the rules of war" because we knew we stood no chance against them in traditional warfare style battles
the british had big victories early in the war
the support and training from another nation (france in our case) proved to be the deciding factor in the war
by all accounts, the british outnumbered us, had better training, better weaponry, better leadership, etc. they should have whooped american ass...
now compare to the way iraq is fighting this war...


  

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MicheleQJ
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5380 posts
Wed Mar-26-03 10:02 AM

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164. "war brough to you by pnac"
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from the innfamous pnac report, pre-bush-election, signed off on by most of his advisors
>
'While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein.'
>

summary article:
http://www.sundayherald.com/print27735

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zewari
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7113 posts
Wed Mar-26-03 12:18 PM

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166. "US gov't. delegation reported to seek cease fire"
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Mar-26-03 12:19 PM

  

          

Source: http://www.aljazeerah.info/26%20news/US%20delegation%20arrived%20in%20Amman%20in%20its%20way%20to%20Baghdad%20for%20ceasefire%20negotiations%20%20aljazeerah.info.htm

Abu Dhabi, Alittihad Daily, 3/26/2003 -- The UAE leading semi-official daily newspaper, Alittihad, reported today that a US government delegation has arrived in Amman, Jordan, yesterday in its way to Baghdad for negotiations with the Iraqi government about an immediate ceasefire.

A diplomatic source told Alittihad that the US government delegation included four leading members of Congress as well as Elizabeth Cheney, the daughter of the US Vice President Dick Cheney, representing the US Department of State, where she works as an Assistant to the Deputy of the Secretary of State for Middle Eastern Affairs.
________________________________


anyone got other confirmation/refutation of this? first i heard elizabeth cheney is going to iraq to become a human shield, now this...



_椺欫_SIG_椺欫_

Stand out firmly for Justice as witnesses in front of God, even
against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against
people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or your
desires, lest you should deviate from Justice. Remember God is the
best of all Protectors and well acquainted with all that you do.
-Quran 4:135

"Don't be deceived when they tell you things are better now. Even if there's no poverty to be seen because the poverty's been hidden. Even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which industries foist on you and even if it seems to you that you never had so much, that is only the slogan of those who still have much more than you. Don't be taken in when they paternally pat you on the shoulder and say that there's no inequality worth speaking of and no more reason to fight because if you believe them they will be completely in charge in their marble homes and granite banks from which they rob the people of the world under the pretence of bringing them culture. Watch out, for as soon as it pleases them they'll send you out to protect their gold in wars whose weapons, rapidly developed by servile scientists, will become more and more deadly until they can with a flick of the finger tear a million of you to pieces."
--Jean Paul Marat, 18th Century French Visionary (and revolutionary), murdered in his bathtub by Royalist Charlotte Corday

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."
-- Johann W. von Goethe

__________________________

www.supportblackowned.org

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52927 posts
Wed Mar-26-03 08:02 PM

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170. "Take the Iraq Quiz."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


Probably already posted somewhere, but oh well....


"Take the War-on-Iraq IQ Test" by Charles Sheketoff, executive
director of the Oregon Center for Public Policy:

Q: What percentage of the world's population does the United States have?
A: Six percent

Q: What percentage of the world's wealth does the United States have?
A: 50 percent

Q: Which country has the largest oil reserves?
A: Saudi Arabia

Q: Which country has the second largest oil reserves?
A: Iraq


Q: How much is spent on military budgets a year worldwide?
A: 900+ billion dollars

Q: How much of this is spent by the United States? A: 50 percent

Q: What percent of US military spending would ensure the essentials of
life to everyone in the world, according to the United Nations?
A: 10 percent (that's about 40 billion dollars, the amount of funding
initially requested to fund the US retaliatory attack on Afghanistan).


Q: How many people have died in wars since World War II? A: 86 million

Q: How long has Iraq had chemical and biological weapons?
A: Since the early 1980s.

Q: Did Iraq develop these chemical and biological weapons on its own?
A: No, the materials and technology were supplied by the US government,
along with Britain and private corporations.

Q: Did the US government condemn the Iraqi use of gas warfare against
Iran?
A: No

Q: How many people did Saddam Hussein kill using gas in the Kurdish town
of Halabja in 1988? A: 5,000

Q: How many Western countries condemned this action at the time?
A: 0

Q: How many gallons of Agent Orange did America use in Vietnam?
A: 17 million.


Q: Are there any proven links between Iraq and Sept. 11 terrorist attack?
A: No

Q: What is the estimated number of civilian casualties in the Gulf War?
A: 35,000

Q: How many casualties did the Iraqi military inflict on the western
forces during the Gulf War?
A: 0

Q: How many retreating Iraqi soldiers were buried alive by US tanks with
ploughs mounted on the front?
A: 6,000


Q: How many tons of depleted uranium were left in Iraq and Kuwait after
the Gulf War?
A: 40 tons

Q: What according to the UN was the increase in cancer rates in Iraq
between 1991 and 1994?
A: 700 percent


Q: How much of Iraq's military capacity did America claim it had
destroyed in 1991? A: 80 percent

Q: Is there any proof that Iraq plans to use its weapons for anything
other than deterrence and self-defense?
A: No

Q: Does Iraq present more of a threat to world peace now than 10 years
ago?
A: No


Q: How many civilian deaths has the Pentagon predicted in the event of
an attack on Iraq in 2002/3?
A: 10,000

Q: What percentage of these will be children?
A: Over 50 percent

Q: How many years has the US engaged in air strikes on Iraq?
A: 11 years

Q: Were the United States and the United Kingdom at war with Iraq
between December 1998 and September 1999?
A: No

Q: How many pounds of explosives were dropped on Iraq between December
1998 and September 1999?
A: 20 million


Q: How many years ago was UN Resolution 661 introduced, imposing strict
sanctions on Iraq's imports and exports?
A: 12 years

Q: What was the child death rate in Iraq in 1989 (per 1,000 births)?
A: 38

Q: What was the estimated child death rate in Iraq in 1999 (per 1,000
births)?
A: 131 (that's an increase of 345 percent)

Q: How many Iraqis are estimated to have died by October 1999 as a
result of UN sanctions?
A: 1.5 million

Q: How many Iraqi children are estimated to have died due to sanctions
since 1997?
A: 750,000


Q: Did Saddam order the inspectors out of Iraq?
A: No

Q: How many inspections were there in November and December 1998? A: 300

Q: How many of these inspections had problems? A: 5

Q: Were the weapons inspectors allowed entry to the Ba'ath Party HQ?
A: Yes

Q: Who said that by December 1998, "Iraq had in fact, been disarmed to a
level unprecedented in modern history."
A: Scott Ritter, UNSCOM chief

Q: In 1998 how much of Iraq's post-1991 capacity to develop weapons of
mass destruction did the UN weapons inspectors claim to have discovered
and dismantled?
A: 90 percent

Q: Is Iraq willing to allow the weapons inspectors back in?
A: Yes


Q: How many UN resolutions did Israel violate by 1992?
A: Over 65

Q: How many UN resolutions on Israel did America veto between 1972 and
1990?
A: 30+


Q: How many countries are known to have nuclear weapons?
A: 8

Q: How many nuclear warheads has Iraq got?
A: 0

Q: How many nuclear warheads has the United States got?
A: Over 10,000

Q: Which is the only country to use nuclear weapons?
A: The United States

Q: How many nuclear warheads does Israel have?
A: Over 400



------------------------------------------------------

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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MicheleQJ
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5380 posts
Thu Mar-27-03 08:13 AM

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171. "article: Baghdad carnage more than 'collateral damage'"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Robert Fisk: Baghdad carnage more than 'collateral damage'

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3300883

27.03.2003
9.45pm - by ROBERT FISK
BAGHDAD - It was an outrage, an obscenity. The severed hand on the metal door, the swamp of blood and mud across the road, the human brains inside a garage, the incinerated, skeletal remains of an Iraqi mother and her three small children in their still smouldering car.

Two missiles from a single American jet killed them all - more than 20 Iraqi civilians, torn to pieces before they could be "liberated" by the nation that destroyed their lives. Who dares, I ask myself, to call this "collateral damage"?

Abu Taleb Street in the Sha'ab suburg of Baghdad was packed with pedestrians and motorists when the American pilot approached through the dense sandstorm that covered northern Baghdad in a cloak of red and yellow dust and rain yesterday morning. It's a dirt poor neighbourhood - of mostly Shia Muslims, the same people who Bush and Blair still fondly hope will rise up against Saddam - a place of oil-sodden car repair shops, overcrowded apartments and cheap cafes.

Everyone I spoke to heard the plane. One man, so shocked by the headless corpses he had just seen, could only say two words. "Roar, flash," he kept saying and then closed his eyes so tight that the muscles rippled between them.

How should one record so terrible an event? Perhaps a medical report would be more appropriate. But the final death toll is expected to be near 30 and Iraqis are now witnessing these awful things each day; so there is no reason why the truth - all the truth - of what they see should not be told.

For another question occurred to me as I walked through this place of massacre. If this is what we are seeing in Baghdad, what is happening in Basra and Nassariyah and Kerbala? How many civilians are dying there too, anonymously, indeed unrecorded, because there are no reporters to be witness to their suffering?

Abu Hassan and Malek Hammoud were preparing lunch for customers at the Nasser Restaurant on the north side of Abu Taleb Street. The missile that killed them landed next to the westbound carriageway, its blast tearing away the front of the cafe and cutting the two men - the first 48, the second only 18 - to pieces. One of their fellow workers led me through the rubble. "This is all that is left of them now," he said, holding out before me an oven pan dripping with blood.

At least 15 cars burst into flames burning many of their occupants to death. Several men tore desperately at the doors of another flame-shrouded car in the centre of the street which had been flipped upside down by the same missile. They were forced to watch helplessly as the woman and her three children inside were cremated alive.

The second missile hit neatly on the east-bound carriageway, sending shards of metal into three men standing outside a concrete apartment block with the words "This is God's possession" written in marble on the outside wall.

The building's manager, Hishem Danoon, ran to the doorway as soon as he heard the massive explosion. "I found Ta'ar in pieces over there," he told me. His head was blown off. "That's his hand." A group of young men and a woman took me into the street and there, a scene from any horror film, was Ta'ar's hand, cut off at the wrist, his four fingers and thumb grasping a piece of iron roofing. His young colleague Sermed died the same instant. His brains lay piled a few feet away, a pale red and grey mess behind a burned car. Both men worked for Danoon. So did a doorman at the building who was also killed.

As each survivor talked, the dead regained their identities. There was the electrical shop owner killed behind his counter by the same missile that cut down Ta'ar and Sermed and the doorman, and the young girl standing on the central reservation, trying to cross the road, and the truck driver who was only feet from the point of impact and the beggar who regularly called to see Mr Danoon for bread and who was just leaving when the missiles came soaring down through the sandstorm to destroy him.

In Qatar, the Anglo-American forces - let's forget this nonsense about "coalition" - announced an enquiry.

The Iraqi government, who are the only ones to benefit from the propaganda value of such a bloodbath, naturally denounced the slaughter which they initially put at 14 dead. So what was the real target? Some Iraqis said there was a military encampment less than a mile from the street, though I couldn't find it. Others talked about a local fire brigade headquarters, but the fire brigade can hardly be described as military target.

Certainly, there had been an attack less than an hour earlier on a military camp farther north. I was driving past the base when two rockets exploded and I saw Iraqi soldiers running for their lives out of the gates and along the side of the highway. Then I heard two more explosions - these were the missiles that hit Abu Taleb Street.

Of course, the pilot who killed the innocent yesterday could not see his victims. Pilots fire through computer-aligned co-ordinates and the sandstorm yesterday would have hidden the street from his vision. But when one of Malek Hammoud's friends asked me how the Americans could so blithely kill those they claimed to want to liberate, he didn't want to learn about the science of avionics or weapons delivery systems.

And why should he? For this is happening almost every day in Baghdad. Three days ago, an entire family of nine was wiped out in their home near the centre of the city. A busload of civilian passengers were reportedly killed on a road south of Baghdad two days ago. Only yesterday were Iraqis learning the identity of five civilian passengers slaughtered on a Syrian bus which was attacked by American aircraft close to the Iraqi border at the weekend.

The truth is that nowhere is safe now in Baghdad and as the Americans and British close their siege of the city in the next few days or hours, that simple message will become ever more real and ever bloodier. We may put on the hairshirt of morality in explaining why theses people should die. They died because of September 11, we may say, because of Saddam's 'weapons of mass destruction', because of human rights abuses, because of our desperate desire to 'liberate' them all. Let us not confuse the issue with oil.

Either way, I'll bet we are told that Saddam is ultimately responsible for their deaths. We shan't mention the pilot, of course.


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zewari
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7113 posts
Thu Mar-27-03 08:45 AM

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172. "American forces out maneuvered"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_764952.html?menu=news.latestheadlines.worldnews


_椺欫_SIG_椺欫_

Stand out firmly for Justice as witnesses in front of God, even
against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or your desires, lest you should deviate from Justice. Remember God is the best of all Protectors and well acquainted with all that you do.
-Quran 4:135

"Don't be deceived when they tell you things are better now. Even if there's no poverty to be seen because the poverty's been hidden. Even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which industries foist on you and even if it seems to you that you never had so much, that is only the slogan of those who still have much more than you. Don't be taken in when they paternally pat you on the shoulder and say that there's no inequality worth speaking of and no more reason to fight because if you believe them they will be completely in charge in their marble homes and granite banks from which they rob the people of the world under the pretence of bringing them culture. Watch out, for as soon as it pleases them they'll send you out to protect their gold in wars whose weapons, rapidly developed by servile scientists, will become more and more deadly until they can with a flick of the finger tear a million of you to pieces."
--Jean Paul Marat, 18th Century French Visionary (and revolutionary), murdered in his bathtub by Royalist Charlotte Corday

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."
-- Johann W. von Goethe

__________________________

www.supportblackowned.org

  

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