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Subject: "american culture seen by the abroader" This topic is locked.
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Federisco
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Sun Apr-06-03 12:31 AM

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"american culture seen by the abroader"
Sun Apr-06-03 12:39 AM

  

          

*symbolically kicks some dust up in the air*

US culture seen through the eyes of an "abroader", someone from another culture. Healthy.... really it should be.

Inspired by this:
"I think for me this job is very weird, because I come from Morocco. So I come from a really strong orthodox muslim background. But, like, to be here with african american men, on the road, in a hiphop thing... it's like, i mean it's not much shit, but it's like that culture is so different to any other, i think. It's like really deep, you know, and i think they got it the hardest... I've lived in Africa, I've lived in England, and now I've lived in America. And I think America is weird. Very weird. You know, we're driving around here, and I'm thinking.. ok, LA, loads of money, dadada.. But even so we drive past really fucked up areas. Ghettoes and shit. And then it's like back again to these rich neighburhoods and shit. I mean, it's all money orientated. I mean, I've never seen such a broad and really large amount of misogynists... (laughing)... in one social setting, before. And you know, i come from an islamic upbringing, which is really misogynistic, but this is on some other level. (Laughing) ...seriously! It's scary, i mean.. it really is scary." - road manager Nou Ra from radio documentary 'Hip-Hop 101: On the road with The Roots' from 96

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
Ghetto in morocco vs ghetto in usa
Apr 06th 2003
1
RE: Ghetto in morocco vs ghetto in usa
Apr 06th 2003
2
      RE: Ghetto in morocco vs ghetto in usa
Apr 07th 2003
3
           RE: Ghetto in morocco vs ghetto in usa
Apr 07th 2003
4
           because of
Apr 07th 2003
5
                RE: because of
Apr 07th 2003
6
                     which artificially has been created
Apr 07th 2003
7
                          RE: which artificially has been created
Apr 08th 2003
10
                               Assuming hypothetically they are inferior and stagnant
Apr 08th 2003
11
                               Nah..
Apr 08th 2003
17
           RE: Ghetto in morocco vs ghetto in usa
Apr 08th 2003
12
           RE: Ghetto in morocco vs ghetto in usa
Apr 08th 2003
14
           RE: Ghetto in morocco vs ghetto in usa
Apr 08th 2003
13
                RE: Ghetto in morocco vs ghetto in usa
Apr 08th 2003
16
up
Apr 08th 2003
8
Homeboy...
Apr 08th 2003
9
      yep
Apr 08th 2003
15

Federisco
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Sun Apr-06-03 12:32 AM

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1. "Ghetto in morocco vs ghetto in usa"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

later on in the documentary

Nichols: "What's the difference between a ghetto in morocco and a ghetto here?"
Nou (the Ghetto Joni Mitchell): "Ghetto in Morocco.. I mean, there is a huge difference. Basically the difference is that there is a community in Morocco. You know, the african people, they got this community thing goin on. And there's... The whole family structure is very very important in Morocco. It's like the pinnacle of society. But here, in America, in the ghetto here, they don't have that family structure. Kids just run on the street at all times, day and night. And the whole family unit thing, they just show it away, and when it's like that the loose ends tend to park the whole thing that keeps this community above water in the ghetto."

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"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." Marshall McLuhan

  

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brownsugs
Member since Jan 21st 2003
1014 posts
Sun Apr-06-03 06:04 PM

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2. "RE: Ghetto in morocco vs ghetto in usa"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

I think that Nou Ra is judging the U.S. culture based on that of Morrocco, rather than just looking at the differences.

and the difference is that America has more freedom, or individual independence, and morrocco is more orthodox and focuses more on the family.

That's why you see a larger stratification, but that is also why there are probably more people living above the poverty line in the U.S. than in Morrocco.

The Ghetto's might be a litte rougher or less family oriented, and the country might be segregated a good deal economically, but that doesn't mean deprived of a rich culture.

I think Nou Ra maybe is yearning for a little homelife after his long tour with the Roots and maybe needs a hug from his mama

  

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Federisco
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Mon Apr-07-03 05:22 AM

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3. "RE: Ghetto in morocco vs ghetto in usa"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

>I think that Nou Ra is judging the U.S. culture based on
>that of Morrocco, rather than just looking at the
>differences.

No, i think she is looking at the differences. The word "judging" is only a more critical way to describe the same thing, perhaps put into use because you have at least a slight problem with her using her perspective.

>and the difference is that America has more freedom, or
>individual independence, and morrocco is more orthodox and
>focuses more on the family.

Yep, that's what she is saying.

>That's why you see a larger stratification, but that is also
>why there are probably more people living above the poverty
>line in the U.S. than in Morrocco.

I dont understand stratification (if you mean a stronger community in Morocco: yes). But that isn't why more people are living below the poverty line in Morocco. There are other reasons to why it is like that.. Morocco is an african country while USA is the western country deluxe. Because of the divide between the west and the rest, there is a political and economical divide between USA and Morocco, and it has more to do with that than with what type of family culture USA and Morocco has.

>The Ghetto's might be a litte rougher or less family
>oriented, and the country might be segregated a good deal
>economically, but that doesn't mean deprived of a rich
>culture.

She doesn't say USA is deprived of a rich culture. First of all she is pointing out the differences.. just talking about the observations she gets from coming from an orthodox islamic family from a settlement/ghetto in some Moroccean city.

>I think Nou Ra maybe is yearning for a little homelife after
>his long tour with the Roots and maybe needs a hug from his
>mama

Her, btw.. nah, i think there is nothing wrong about what she says, and that if she needed some rest it wouldnt affect her words on the differences all that much. I have a feeling that, as i was barely hoping for but wasnt too sure i would see, someone is feeling somewhat threatened by an abroader's perspective on USA.

That's why i said it was healthy.. the abroader's perspective.

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"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." Marshall McLuhan

  

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Ulysses S Grant
Member since Nov 19th 2002
520 posts
Mon Apr-07-03 05:30 AM

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4. "RE: Ghetto in morocco vs ghetto in usa"
In response to Reply # 3


          

>Morocco is an african
>country while USA is the western country deluxe. Because of
>the divide between the west and the rest

More accurately, the divide between the stunning progress in the West and the virtual cultural stagnation in the "rest".

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


I am General Ulysses S Grant and you are a fucking phony

  

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Federisco
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Mon Apr-07-03 05:40 AM

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5. "because of"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

the unbelievably grand grand scale exploitation and oppression of the west upon the rest.

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proud okayphotographer: http://www.okayplayer.com/okayphotographers/

"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." Marshall McLuhan

  

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Ulysses S Grant
Member since Nov 19th 2002
520 posts
Mon Apr-07-03 07:44 AM

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6. "RE: because of"
In response to Reply # 5


          

>the unbelievably grand grand scale exploitation and
>oppression of the west upon the rest.

Made possible by the obvious superiority of Western culture.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


I am General Ulysses S Grant and you are a fucking phony

  

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Federisco
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Mon Apr-07-03 07:51 PM

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7. "which artificially has been created"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

through means of oppression and exploitation of the rest.

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proud okayphotographer: http://www.okayplayer.com/okayphotographers/

"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." Marshall McLuhan

  

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Ulysses S Grant
Member since Nov 19th 2002
520 posts
Tue Apr-08-03 07:26 PM

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10. "RE: which artificially has been created"
In response to Reply # 7


          

>through means of oppression and exploitation of the rest

...whose inferior and stagnant cultures left them open to conquest by Great Civilizations. Just like when Egypt or Nubia conquered the surrounding kingdoms of Africa and the near east.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


I am General Ulysses S Grant and you are a fucking phony

  

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takinthecoltrane
Member since Oct 27th 2002
1958 posts
Tue Apr-08-03 07:35 PM

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11. "Assuming hypothetically they are inferior and stagnant"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

it still doesn't make the oppression and exploitation right, it just makes it easier.

"There's a lot you can do with a giant four foot dried, curling, boomerang seed pod from the Botang Tree that grows only in Indonesia."
-Tom Waits

"It's not about a salary it's all about reality."
-KRS-One

"Me being wack is like naps on Kojack."
-RZA

"The revolution will not be apologized for."
-Aesop Rock

"Came to save the game like a memory card."
-MF Doom

  

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Federisco
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Tue Apr-08-03 10:15 PM

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17. "Nah.."
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

>>through means of oppression and exploitation of the rest
>
>...whose inferior and stagnant cultures left them open to
>conquest by Great Civilizations. Just like when Egypt or
>Nubia conquered the surrounding kingdoms of Africa and the
>near east.

i would say:
...whose cultures were brutally conquested by the west, considering itself to be the Great Civilization althou being the most large scale brutal civilization to roam the earth. (When looking at certain distinct aspects of it.)

We have obviously very different ways to view this.

(hehm)

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"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." Marshall McLuhan

  

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brownsugs
Member since Jan 21st 2003
1014 posts
Tue Apr-08-03 08:26 PM

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12. "RE: Ghetto in morocco vs ghetto in usa"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

>>>>I think that Nou Ra is judging the U.S. culture based on
>that of Morrocco, rather than just looking at the
>differences.
No, i think she is looking at the differences. The word "judging" is only a more critical way to describe the same thing, perhaps put into use because you have at least a slight problem with her using her perspective.<<<<<<<<<<<

you're way off man, she's clearly making a judgement because she thinks that the family centered culture in Morrocco is better. you can see it in her rhetoric when she describes how "But here, in America, in the ghetto here, they don't have that family structure. Kids just run on the street at all times, day and night",. this clearly reveals that she is favoring the family centered model. she's not just pointing out differences, she's talking about something that she doesn't thinks shouldn't be the way it is and gives her "family as the pinnacle" culture as better. it's there in the rhetoric and i might think that her observations are aesthetic and don't have depth, but i think you are the one that is blinded by you're agreement with her opinion.

i think that a strong family is extremely important and hope to have one someday, but i don't think that this opinion carries any weight other than to open up conversation on a much broader topic of simply family structures in ghettos



  

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Federisco
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Tue Apr-08-03 09:35 PM

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14. "RE: Ghetto in morocco vs ghetto in usa"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

You are right, "i stand corrected" when it comes to what i said.. got caught up in her stance.
But i think that you thinking her observations are aesthetic and don't have depth is because you are somewhat insulted by someone openly sharing her perspective on usa, as an abroader. At least in some way, and then automatically going into defence mode (naturally, or typically).

That was why i said "Healthy... really it should be". I think it is very important to take into account what outsiders think about the world you are apart of. Perspectives from the outside are rare and can open your own perspective, and also gives you more understanding. (Considering you respect that the perspective is being shared.)

>i don't think that this opinion carries any weight other than to open up conversation on a much broader topic of simply family structures in ghettos

Yeah, thats probably the best use for that opinion. But with this post i'm showing how it gives you the understanding that i explained above.

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"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." Marshall McLuhan

  

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brownsugs
Member since Jan 21st 2003
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Tue Apr-08-03 08:37 PM

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13. "RE: Ghetto in morocco vs ghetto in usa"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

>>>>That's why you see a larger stratification, but that is also
>why there are probably more people living above the poverty
>line in the U.S. than in Morrocco.

I dont understand stratification (if you mean a stronger community in Morocco: yes). But that isn't why more people are living below the poverty line in Morocco. There are other reasons to why it is like that.. Morocco is an african country while USA is the western country deluxe. Because of the divide between the west and the rest, there is a political and economical divide between USA and Morocco, and it has more to do with that than with what type of family culture USA and Morocco has.<<<<<<

This was a little out there and the reason why Morrocco is poorer than the U.S. is because there's no interest invested in Morrocco by western capital(even though i don't know much about Morrocco,i'm willing to say this) but the stratification i'm talking about is the stratification of types of family structures that are present. The U.S. has many different family structures and i'm willing that the ability to work outside a family structure not only allows individuals to have a higher earning potential but also, in the same vein, allows for greater upward mobility within a society allowing the poor to raise themselves up. i'm not saying that they can't in Morrocco, but i think that having a whole culture that is based largely on families blocks the upward mobility of those families that are on the lower end of their society.

  

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Federisco
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Tue Apr-08-03 10:09 PM

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16. "RE: Ghetto in morocco vs ghetto in usa"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

>This was a little out there and the reason why Morrocco is poorer than the U.S. is because there's no interest
>invested in Morrocco by western capital(even though i don't know much about Morrocco,i'm willing to say this)

Yes.. this is a result from how "Morocco is an african country while USA is the western country deluxe. Because of the divide between the west and the rest, there is a political and economical divide between USA and Morocco...", which i wrote about. So when it comes to this we think generally the same, just over eachothers heads.

>but the stratification i'm talking about is the stratification of types of family structures that are present. The
>U.S. has many different family structures and i'm willing that the ability to work outside a family structure not
>only allows individuals to have a higher earning potential but also, in the same vein, allows for greater upward
>mobility within a society allowing the poor to raise themselves up. i'm not saying that they can't in Morrocco,
>but i think that having a whole culture that is based largely on families blocks the upward mobility of those
>families that are on the lower end of their society.

But this is speculations based on how it is in the american society.. the moroccean is a different world.
And it doesn't take into account how morocco is an african country while usa is the western country deluxe, which alone causes big differences (opportunities, basis for growth, and much more on different levels).

Anyhow, going into this is also too complex for us, i think. Even for me who was in Morocco for two weeks in february, as a part of an exhange program. At least it is too complex for me.. from now on i'd only be speculating and repeating myself. But i've made my point and i see your standpoint.

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"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." Marshall McLuhan

  

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Federisco
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5002 posts
Tue Apr-08-03 09:56 AM

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8. "up"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

one mo gin

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"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." Marshall McLuhan

  

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SP1200
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Tue Apr-08-03 10:47 AM

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9. "Homeboy..."
In response to Reply # 8
Tue Apr-08-03 10:48 AM

  

          

-That's why you see a larger stratification, but that is also why there are probably more people living above the poverty line in the U.S. than in Morrocco.

Money isn't everything...

PEace.


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Federisco
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Tue Apr-08-03 09:44 PM

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15. "yep"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

replying to the wrong homeboy thou

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"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." Marshall McLuhan

  

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