School me.

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"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

the Old and New Testaments aren't even REALLY compatible. Throwing the Qu'ran in there is just asking for trouble. Mind you, I haven't read the Qu'ran, but the thought of trying to mate these two is making me break out in a cold sweat.

America taught me how to kidnap and torture cats...

From what I read of the Qur'an I haven't noticed anything that would lead me to think they are not compatible- not the old testament...and to a degree the new too.

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Avatar? Nea onnim sua a, ohu; nea odwen se onim dodo no, se ogyae sua a, ketewa no koraa a onim no firi ne nsa.
_______________________

"Eat breakfast yourself, share your lunch with a friend, and give your supper to your enemy." Ancient Chinese Proverb

Give back:
www.jampact.org.

Currently Playing:

Cee-lo: ceelo green...
Incubus: Morning view
Common: Electric Circus
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Les Nubians: One step forward
The Roots: Phrenology
Collective Efforts: Visions of things to come

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

They are compatible...
the Bible
The Old and New Testament
The Koran
The Old and New Testament plus the life and times of the prophet Mohammed.

"I'm like Aquaman and Brownhornet, Imhotep but don't flaunt it" - the mighty Black Thought

"We.. (puff, puff) gotta make some changes ya dig? (puff, puff) I mean... dayum... brothers gotta work it out (puff, puff)... What's this a Dutch? Damn you aint

lame attempt at sarcasm.

America taught me how to kidnap and torture cats...

the old testament provides a foundation for islam....

the old testament shows the lineage of Ishmael, father of Islam. The Quran should be the new testament. But that was replaced with the european version of events, which can be seen from looking at history, we live in a very western, very european world on this hemisphere, this is where these religions migrated from, the people who were left in the actual country in north africa at the time carried on a different story....anyways....

If we were living in the middle east or in North Africa where most of the religious bickering is the quran would probably be our new testament as well...

All of these books should be looked at, if one would ever want to have true overstanding of the different religious crusades and even what is now currently happening in iraq, they should be cross referenced and researched in order to make any heads or tails of the matter.....

please...

""look at how many posts you have, do you work here or something?""
©Erykah Badu

But there are some differences:

-for one any practice of polyagomy is not allowed anywhere in the Bible under the Mosiac law. If I'm not mistaken, isn't it alright for men to have 4 or so wives in the Qu'ran?

Some of the prophets and kings in Israel had more than one wife (Solomon had over 700) but I don't thihnk this act was *accepted* but tolerated.

-Which son of Abraham is the "golden child" (Ishmael vs. Issac)
which I think in some ways begins to take on an obvious racial tone.

-I could be wrong, but I think the law against pork (and other supersticious practices) is taken away in the NT.

-Original sin

-How to get favor with God/get into heaven (atonement vs. good works).

Then there's the biggest difference - the life and times of Yeshua Ben Yosef AKA Jesus The Christ AKA Iesus AKA Prophet Isa.

Now yall know I don't believe in any such concept as as "trinity" and believe only The Father (who I gues is the same as Allah) is God, but the Qu'ran does not support the atonement and resurrection.

I'm also not sure if it supports free will or pre-destiny cause in my view the Bible supports the former.



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>-for one any practice of polyagomy is not allowed anywhere
>in the Bible under the Mosiac law. If I'm not mistaken,
>isn't it alright for men to have 4 or so wives in the
>Qu'ran?

It is allowed to have polygamists relations under the 613 laws transcribed by Mosheh...as a matter of fact some sects interpret it as though they can have 7 wives, and others as that they can have as many wives as they can take care of...


>-Which son of Abraham is the "golden child" (Ishmael vs.
>Issac)
>which I think in some ways begins to take on an obvious
>racial tone.

Both sons were born to abraham, who was supposed to be a hebrew semite, Sarai, is supposed to be Abraham's half sister, which made Yitschak(Isaac) a legitimate child to his family who was some kind of sumerian royalty....ishmael was born to hathar an "egyptian" woman...

>-I could be wrong, but I think the law against pork (and
>other supersticious practices) is taken away in the NT.

Exactly why any israelite who's following law doesn't follow that book....

>-Original sin
>
>-How to get favor with God/get into heaven (atonement vs.
>good works).
>
>Then there's the biggest difference - the life and times of
>Yeshua Ben Yosef AKA Jesus The Christ AKA Iesus AKA Prophet
>Isa.
>
>Now yall know I don't believe in any such concept as as
>"trinity" and believe only The Father (who I gues is the
>same as Allah) is God, but the Qu'ran does not support the
>atonement and resurrection.


Neither does the torah....

>>-for one any practice of polyagomy is not allowed anywhere
>>in the Bible under the Mosiac law. If I'm not mistaken,
>>isn't it alright for men to have 4 or so wives in the
>>Qu'ran?
>
>It is allowed to have polygamists relations under the 613
>laws transcribed by Mosheh...as a matter of fact some sects
>interpret it as though they can have 7 wives, and others as
>that they can have as many wives as they can take care of...

I think all your responses are coming for a Jewish point of view which obviously my resposne was not at all intended to be.

>>-Which son of Abraham is the "golden child" (Ishmael vs.
>>Issac)
>>which I think in some ways begins to take on an obvious
>>racial tone.
>
>Both sons were born to abraham, who was supposed to be a
>hebrew semite, Sarai, is supposed to be Abraham's half
>sister, which made Yitschak(Isaac) a legitimate child to his
>family who was some kind of sumerian royalty....ishmael was
>born to hathar an "egyptian" woman...

I know. But in Genesis only one of them is said to be the child of the covenant.

>>-I could be wrong, but I think the law against pork (and
>>other supersticious practices) is taken away in the NT.
>
>Exactly why any israelite who's following law doesn't follow
>that book....

Israelite?

Again, the original discussion is based on whether or not the Qur'an is compatiable to the Bible (as in the OT and NT) I understand if the NT does not fit your views but that isnt the topic at hand.

>>-Original sin
>>
>>-How to get favor with God/get into heaven (atonement vs.
>>good works).
>>
>>Then there's the biggest difference - the life and times of
>>Yeshua Ben Yosef AKA Jesus The Christ AKA Iesus AKA Prophet
>>Isa.
>>
>>Now yall know I don't believe in any such concept as as
>>"trinity" and believe only The Father (who I gues is the
>>same as Allah) is God, but the Qu'ran does not support the
>>atonement and resurrection.
>
>
>Neither does the torah....

That's because it isn't written in the Torah. The prophecies are made later on and the events themselves occur in the NT.




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why do you think the Bible says "let no man deceive you"

how can one explain away the prophecies of another Jesus being taught? other doctrines coming about? prophecy of how the word of God would be scares and how it will be hard to find Him.

the wickness that has come into God's word

>But there are some differences:
>
>-for one any practice of polyagomy is not allowed anywhere
>in the Bible under the Mosiac law. If I'm not mistaken,
>isn't it alright for men to have 4 or so wives in the
>Qu'ran?

make sense dont it? who has laws, statutes and commandments more righteous then the one in the Bible

>Some of the prophets and kings in Israel had more than one
>wife (Solomon had over 700) but I don't thihnk this act was
>*accepted* but tolerated.

exactly, and that is why it was Solomon downfall

>-Which son of Abraham is the "golden child" (Ishmael vs.
>Issac)

the Bible says Isaac and the whole book is built around Isaac and his nation of people (be mindful of) let's also see what the BIble says about Ishmael:

Gen.16:11-12 (prophecy concerning Ishmael) and he will be a wild man: his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Gen.17:20-21, And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: behold, I have blessed him and will multiply him exceedingly; TWELVE PRINCES SHALL HE BEGET (who is this?, what nation of people?)and I will make him a great nation.

but my covenant will I establish with Isaac.

>-I could be wrong, but I think the law against pork (and
>other supersticious practices) is taken away in the NT.

naw, eathing pork and others are not taken away by the NT that's a lie. Christ came to esablish the laws, not do away with. people misunderstand Paul's teachings.

>-How to get favor with God/get into heaven (atonement vs.
>good works).

get into heaven? no such thing no one is flyin off anywhere. repent and be baptized

>Then there's the biggest difference - the life and times of
>Yeshua Ben Yosef AKA Jesus The Christ AKA Iesus AKA Prophet
>Isa.

foolishness, people have a zeal for/of God but not according to knowledge.

>Now yall know I don't believe in any such concept as as
>"trinity" and believe only The Father (who I gues is the
>same as Allah) is God, but the Qu'ran does not support the
>atonement and resurrection.

that's because you have been taught incorrectly and the quran doesnt support because it is false doctrine.

> Christ came to esablish the laws, not do away
>with. people misunderstand Paul's teachings.

you misunderstand it. but what can i expect from someone who tells peeps to read the bible in a rush...

p/s bonhoeffer, barth, kueng, marti and other bible scholars would strongly disagree with your "opinion".

---------------------------------------------------------

wishlist:

rakim - oh my god
ras kass - goldyn chyld
hi-tek - hi-teknology 2
the alchemist - 1st infantry
pete rock - soul survivor 2
iam - tbd
the prodigy - always outnumbered, never outgunned
madonna - american life
daft punk - tbd
bob sinclair - ill
jonell - know me
tekitha - wisdom body

>> Christ came to esablish the laws, not do away
>>with. people misunderstand Paul's teachings.

>you misunderstand it.

Prove it!

but what can i expect from someone who
>tells peeps to read the bible in a rush...

prove this also, when have I ever told someone to read the Bible in a rush? if anything I tell you to pray for understanding while reading it

>p/s bonhoeffer, barth, kueng, marti and other bible scholars
>would strongly disagree with your "opinion".

keep dealing with theories, I will stick with God and His word.
besides I dont care what degrees or however long you study the Bible, it is God who grants you understanding line upon line precept upon precept.

> I will stick with God and His
>word.

the bible was written by mankind. hence it's not "his word".

>besides I dont care what degrees or however long you study
>the Bible,

are you working for billy graham?

>it is God who grants you understanding line upon
>line precept upon precept.

lol.



---------------------------------------------------------

wishlist:

rakim - oh my god
ras kass - goldyn chyld
hi-tek - hi-teknology 2
the alchemist - 1st infantry
pete rock - soul survivor 2
iam - tbd
the prodigy - always outnumbered, never outgunned
madonna - american life
daft punk - tbd
bob sinclair - ill
jonell - know me
tekitha - wisdom body

>>> Christ came to esablish the laws, not do away
>>>with. people misunderstand Paul's teachings.
>
>>you misunderstand it.
>
>Prove it!

who stated that people misunderstand paul's teachings? i guess it was you. why don't you prove it?

p/s those who try to live according to the law will become sinners.

>
>but what can i expect from someone who
>>tells peeps to read the bible in a rush...
>
>prove this also, when have I ever told someone to read the
>Bible in a rush? if anything I tell you to pray for
>understanding while reading it

http://www.okayplayer.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=13922&forum=DCForumID1&omm=2&viewmode=



---------------------------------------------------------

wishlist:

rakim - oh my god
ras kass - goldyn chyld
hi-tek - hi-teknology 2
the alchemist - 1st infantry
pete rock - soul survivor 2
iam - tbd
the prodigy - always outnumbered, never outgunned
madonna - american life
daft punk - tbd
bob sinclair - ill
jonell - know me
tekitha - wisdom body

you carry on a convo with a fanatic who doesn't even understand his own fanaticism. There is no point. Ignore that user name at all cost.


----------------------
Avatar? Nea onnim sua a, ohu; nea odwen se onim dodo no, se ogyae sua a, ketewa no koraa a onim no firi ne nsa.
_______________________

"Eat breakfast yourself, share your lunch with a friend, and give your supper to your enemy." Ancient Chinese Proverb

Give back:
www.jampact.org.

Currently Playing:

Cee-lo: ceelo green...
Incubus: Morning view
Common: Electric Circus
Vivian Green: A love story
Soullive: Next
Lucky Dube: Serious Reggae Business
Jimi Hendrix: Best of/Experience
Les Nubians: One step forward
The Roots: Phrenology
Collective Efforts: Visions of things to come

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

>you carry on a convo with a fanatic who doesn't even
>understand his own fanaticism. There is no point. Ignore
>that user name at all cost.
>
>
>----------------------
>Avatar? Nea onnim sua a, ohu; nea odwen se onim dodo no, se
>ogyae sua a, ketewa no koraa a onim no firi ne nsa.
>_______________________
>
>"Eat breakfast yourself, share your lunch with a friend, and
>give your supper to your enemy." Ancient Chinese Proverb
>
>Give back:
>www.jampact.org.
>
>Currently Playing:
>
>Cee-lo: ceelo green...
>Incubus: Morning view
>Common: Electric Circus
>Vivian Green: A love story
>Soullive: Next
>Lucky Dube: Serious Reggae Business
>Jimi Hendrix: Best of/Experience
>Les Nubians: One step forward
>The Roots: Phrenology
>Collective Efforts: Visions of things to come

"The camel never sees its own hump but that of its brothers is always before its eyes"- N.African proverb

Ridiculous but Hilarious quote of the Week:

"Mya is beautiful and sexy as hell..." As far as I'm concerned Mya could be singing on a commercial selling guns, knives and forties to kids during Sesame Street commercial breaks. -TheRealBillyOcean

Alhamdullah For Everything!

>you carry on a convo with a fanatic who doesn't even
>understand his own fanaticism. There is no point. Ignore
>that user name at all cost.


you just dont get it and your not trying to. Your post was about if the two doctrine are compatible I say no and I also told you why.

is there really a need to "try" and dis me?


I have faith in the doctrine that I have learned. So that is what I represent. I dont attempt to make my own interpatations, is that what you need? then your right you might wanna ignore me. According to bible doctrine, I should show you what He (God)has to say about the matters and not my own.

dont say im a fanatic with no understanding of what I say, understand that I have a zeal of God according to knowledge.

if I dont understand what Im saying then why dont you take the time to show me what is right or what you think is right. anything I say I can back up and so far noone can really deny anything I say.

take it or leave it!

> anything I say I can back up and so far noone can
>really deny anything I say.

then prove that people are misunderstanding paul's teachings. besides, please don't refer to theories - stick to "god and his word".


---------------------------------------------------------

wishlist:

rakim - oh my god
ras kass - goldyn chyld
hi-tek - hi-teknology 2
the alchemist - 1st infantry
pete rock - soul survivor 2
iam - tbd
the prodigy - always outnumbered, never outgunned
madonna - american life
daft punk - tbd
bob sinclair - ill
jonell - know me
tekitha - wisdom body

>> anything I say I can back up and so far noone can
>>really deny anything I say.
>
>then prove that people are misunderstanding paul's
>teachings. besides, please don't refer to theories - stick
>to "god and his word".


like previously stated, paul teachings are what most people use to discredit the bible. ex. it's ok to eat foods that are unclean, no longer have to keep the Sabbath, your not under the Laws but grace (true to some extent) your flying off to heaven when you die and among others.

As far as me proving anything, Im not the one with the problem with the bible and all I am saying if we are going to deal with the scriptures then do it right. Now if you want me to prove that it is not ok to eat foods that God commanded not to be eaten then I can, if you nned me to prove that Paul did in fact keep the laws of the bible then I will and I will be using the same bible and with words of Paul himself. There is no need for me to add my own thoughts or interpattion I can let the book speak for me.

>>>> Christ came to esablish the laws, not do away
>>>>with. people misunderstand Paul's teachings.
>>
>>>you misunderstand it.
>>
>>Prove it!
>
>who stated that people misunderstand paul's teachings? i
>guess it was you. why don't you prove it?

why did I say that? and my point for saying his teachings are the most misunderstood is because alot of Pauls teachings people try to use to discredit alot of the OT or do away with some things. So I dont feel the need to prove anything, because I believe the bible to be true and if you find something that appears to be contradicting, It can be shown to you thru using the same bible that their is nuthing contradicting in the Bible, it's just when man puts his interpataion in there that things appear contradicting.

>p/s those who try to live according to the law will become
>sinners.

only if you forget who is in charge

> I believe the bible to be true and if you
>find something that appears to be contradicting, It can be
>shown to you thru using the same bible that their is nuthing
>contradicting in the Bible, it's just when man puts his
>interpataion in there that things appear contradicting.

belief = interpretation.

>>p/s those who try to live according to the law will become
>>sinners.
>
>only if you forget who is in charge

nope. those who are living according to the law will become sinners. end of post.

---------------------------------------------------------

wishlist:

rakim - oh my god
ras kass - goldyn chyld
hi-tek - hi-teknology 2
the alchemist - 1st infantry
pete rock - soul survivor 2
iam - tbd
the prodigy - always outnumbered, never outgunned
madonna - american life
daft punk - tbd
bob sinclair - ill
jonell - know me
tekitha - wisdom body

>> I believe the bible to be true and if you
>>find something that appears to be contradicting, It can be
>>shown to you thru using the same bible that their is nuthing
>>contradicting in the Bible, it's just when man puts his
>>interpataion in there that things appear contradicting.
>
>belief = interpretation.

it really depends on what we are discuss, for instance the Isaac/Ishmael story, if I am showing you the scripture (giving you the verses) on what God said about this story, How am I giving you my interpretation? It would be my interpretation if I wasnt showing you the scripture, dont you think?

>>>p/s those who try to live according to the law will become
>>>sinners.
>>
>>only if you forget who is in charge
>
>nope. those who are living according to the law will become
>sinners. end of post.

I dont get you on this one, please explain what you mean. what I do understand is that "all have sinned" no one is prefect! as for the laws, no that want saved you, thru the laws you have the knowledge of sin. You keep them to show your devotion to God. so yeah, some of us fall off and some of us dont it all depends on your knowledge of the Most High.

> on what God said about this story,

god didn't say anything. the bible was written by mankind.

>How am I giving you my interpretation?

see below.

>some of us fall off and some
>of us dont it all depends on your knowledge of the Most
>High.

you're a true pharisian....

p/s knowledge = power
p/p/s christianity is not about power but love.


---------------------------------------------------------

wishlist:

rakim - oh my god
ras kass - goldyn chyld
hi-tek - hi-teknology 2
the alchemist - 1st infantry
pete rock - soul survivor 2
iam - tbd
the prodigy - always outnumbered, never outgunned
madonna - american life
daft punk - tbd
bob sinclair - ill
jonell - know me
tekitha - wisdom body

>> on what God said about this story,
>
>god didn't say anything. the bible was written by mankind.

sick of this one

>>How am I giving you my interpretation?
>
>see below.
>
>>some of us fall off and some
>>of us dont it all depends on your knowledge of the Most
>>High.
>
>you're a true pharisian....

you say that because you havent met me. but also know, Im dealing with non believers.

>p/s knowledge = power
p/p/s christianity is not about power but love.

exactly and who have I harmed?

truth hurts

(-for one any practice of polyagomy is not allowed anywhere in the Bible under the Mosiac law. If I'm not mistaken, isn't it alright for men to have 4 or so wives in the Qu'ran?)

Um, Moses had many wives... so did Abraham... Noah... blah, blah... so this isn't true.

(Some of the prophets and kings in Israel had more than one wife (Solomon had over 700) but I don't thihnk this act was *accepted* but tolerated.)

Um, not true.

(-Which son of Abraham is the "golden child" (Ishmael vs. Issac)
which I think in some ways begins to take on an obvious racial tone.
-I could be wrong, but I think the law against pork (and other supersticious practices) is taken away in the NT.)

Superstitious? Not so... 'hooved animals are not to be eaten'...
more than just pork. Not superstitious... just healthy.

(-Original sin

-How to get favor with God/get into heaven (atonement vs. good works).)

Then there's the biggest difference - the life and times of Yeshua Ben Yosef AKA Jesus The Christ AKA Iesus AKA Prophet Isa.
Now yall know I don't believe in any such concept as as "trinity" and believe only The Father (who I gues is the same as Allah) is God, but the Qu'ran does not support the atonement and resurrection.))

True indeed... cause he was a prophet... Phoenix fused into reality anyone?

"I'm like Aquaman and Brownhornet, Imhotep but don't flaunt it" - the mighty Black Thought

"We.. (puff, puff) gotta make some changes ya dig? (puff, puff) I mean... dayum... brothers gotta work it out (puff, puff)... What's this a Dutch? Damn you aint

>(-for one any practice of polyagomy is not allowed anywhere
>in the Bible under the Mosiac law. If I'm not mistaken,
>isn't it alright for men to have 4 or so wives in the
>Qu'ran?)
>
>Um, Moses had many wives... so did Abraham... Noah... blah,
>blah... so this isn't true.

I just said that below.

>(Some of the prophets and kings in Israel had more than one
>wife (Solomon had over 700) but I don't thihnk this act was
>*accepted* but tolerated.)
>
>Um, not true.

Actually it is. Nowhere is any practice of polyagomy accepted by God in the Bible. It is merely tolerated (as sin in general is) and if you look at examples like Abraham being with 2 different women, Solomon having 700 jawns, Davis sleepin' with bathsheeba etc. it most-always leads to much chaos (in Solomans case, his downfall).

if I am wrong, please point to me an instance where polyagomy is accepted as righteous.

>-I could be wrong, but I think the law against pork (and
>other supersticious practices) is taken away in the NT.)
>
>Superstitious? Not so... 'hooved animals are not to be
>eaten'...
>more than just pork. Not superstitious... just healthy.

I know eating pork isnt healthy. But to me making an example of the swine being unclean (and a sign of things that are dirty,unclean,ungodly) while eating other animals that are just as flithy makes no sense. But thats just me. That isnt an insult on what you have learned, I just don't see the point in man understanding the uncleanliness of a pig without being a fulltime vegetarian.

>(-Original sin
>
>-How to get favor with God/get into heaven (atonement vs.
>good works).)
>
>Then there's the biggest difference - the life and times of
>Yeshua Ben Yosef AKA Jesus The Christ AKA Iesus AKA Prophet
>Isa.
>Now yall know I don't believe in any such concept as as
>"trinity" and believe only The Father (who I gues is the
>same as Allah) is God, but the Qu'ran does not support the
>atonement and resurrection.))
>
>True indeed... cause he was a prophet... Phoenix fused into
>reality anyone?

Once again, I would take issue that despite this the two books take a completly different role on the death of Christ. One says he was taken up to God and not killed and the other says he was slayed on a cross for mans atonement.

Just some perspective...



------

Fox has got nothin' on us.

Okayplayers guerilla love
and Quest4Knowledge bringing you fair & balanced moderation since 2003.

Make sure you know the guidelines before posting: http://okayplayer.com/guidelines

Not happy about your post being locked? Want a thread archived? See a post that shouldn't be up? Feel free to Inbox me at Quest4Knowledge or E-Mail me at KemeticSunrise@aol.com

---
In memory of my sig..

----------------------
Avatar? Nea onnim sua a, ohu; nea odwen se onim dodo no, se ogyae sua a, ketewa no koraa a onim no firi ne nsa.
_______________________

"Eat breakfast yourself, share your lunch with a friend, and give your supper to your enemy." Ancient Chinese Proverb

Give back:
www.jampact.org.

Currently Playing:

Cee-lo: ceelo green...
Incubus: Morning view
Common: Electric Circus
Vivian Green: A love story
Soullive: Next
Lucky Dube: Serious Reggae Business
Jimi Hendrix: Best of/Experience
Les Nubians: One step forward
The Roots: Phrenology
Collective Efforts: Visions of things to come

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

>I'm also not sure if it supports free will or pre-destiny
>cause in my view the Bible supports the former.

.....for the answer to this

>-Which son of Abraham is the "golden child" (Ishmael vs.
>Issac)
>which I think in some ways begins to take on an obvious
>racial tone.

not really. the original hebrew people (ie isaacs peoples) were of the same "race" as ishmael's crew. only recently (with the dispersion of jews and jewish culture into europe) have the jews as a whole taken on a much lighter complexion. abraham, isaac, ishmael, jacob and the whole gang would probably look like what we call arab today.

keep in mind, i'm no expert
******************************
The newbie experience...

(tapping thigh) you just think this is my leg.

Disclaimer: lurk

>>-Which son of Abraham is the "golden child" (Ishmael vs.
>>Issac)
>>which I think in some ways begins to take on an obvious
>>racial tone.
>
>not really. the original hebrew people (ie isaacs peoples)
>were of the same "race" as ishmael's crew. only recently
>(with the dispersion of jews and jewish culture into europe)
>have the jews as a whole taken on a much lighter complexion.
> abraham, isaac, ishmael, jacob and the whole gang would
>probably look like what we call arab today.

thats actually what I meant. the modern interpretation of this and its effect on modern discourse (e.g. israel/palestine) rather than it making a significant difference in that age.


>keep in mind, i'm no expert
>******************************
>The newbie experience...
>
>(tapping thigh) you just think this is my leg.
>
>Disclaimer: lurk



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>But there are some differences:
>
>-for one any practice of polyagomy is not allowed anywhere
>in the Bible under the Mosiac law. If I'm not mistaken,
>isn't it alright for men to have 4 or so wives in the
>Qu'ran?
>
>Some of the prophets and kings in Israel had more than one
>wife (Solomon had over 700) but I don't thihnk this act was
>*accepted* but tolerated.

Yes He was lead astray when he married a woman who worshped a goddess
>-Which son of Abraham is the "golden child" (Ishmael vs.
>Issac)

>which I think in some ways begins to take on an obvious
>racial tone.

It was just a result of God's promise and the result of Abraham's wife being unpatient and lacking faith (suggesting that Abraham have a child with the maidservant)

>-I could be wrong, but I think the law against pork (and
>other supersticious practices) is taken away in the NT.

Yes. What defiles a man is not what he puts into his mouth but comes out of his mouth (Lies and etc) defiles him.


>-How to get favor with God/get into heaven (atonement vs.
>good works).

Faith and living the life he wants you to live.

>Then there's the biggest difference - the life and times of
>Yeshua Ben Yosef AKA Jesus The Christ AKA Iesus AKA Prophet
>Isa.
>
>Now yall know I don't believe in any such concept as as
>"trinity" and believe only The Father (who I gues is the
>same as Allah) is God, but the Qu'ran does not support the
>atonement and resurrection.
>
>I'm also not sure if it supports free will or pre-destiny
>cause in my view the Bible supports the former.

Freewill. In the sence we can choose

""look at how many posts you have, do you work here or something?""
©Erykah Badu

>>-I could be wrong, but I think the law against pork (and
>>other supersticious practices) is taken away in the NT.
>
>Yes. What defiles a man is not what he puts into his mouth
>but comes out of his mouth (Lies and etc) defiles him.

>>>-I could be wrong, but I think the law against pork (and
>>>other supersticious practices) is taken away in the NT.
>>
>>Yes. What defiles a man is not what he puts into his mouth
>>but comes out of his mouth (Lies and etc) defiles him.

11   Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

Matthew 15

""look at how many posts you have, do you work here or something?""
©Erykah Badu

>>>>-I could be wrong, but I think the law against pork (and
>>>>other supersticious practices) is taken away in the NT.
>>>
>>>Yes. What defiles a man is not what he puts into his mouth
>>>but comes out of his mouth (Lies and etc) defiles him.
>
>11   Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but
>that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
>
>Matthew 15

I meant, that is is ok to eat pork

for instance:
they all espouse that there is only The One God
they all espouse the commandments in one way or the other (with the exception of "keep thy sabbath day holy" for muslims)
they all espouse life after death
they all espouse heaven and hell
they all espouse the reality of prophethood and the messages they brought (namely that there is but One God, so dont worship other than Him)

where they eventually differ is:
who they believe The One God is, and what they attribute to Him.
how they follow and obey those commandments, if they do that.
their perception of life after death, how it is, where, when etc.
their perception of heaven and hell and how to get there (deeds, belief, etc.)
their perception on WHO the prophets are, and WHAT their messages are.

They all came from The One God, The Creator, Allah (as the muslims say), in their original forms of course, and to Him they shall return.

the new and old testament...contains many contradictions...and the god's dominion aint that tight...angry vengeful dude that cant even find adam hiding in the garden..

plus alot of othere stuff...that keeps alot of clergy on their toes trying to explain....like jesus constantly praying to himself??...the quran dont get down like that

pardon my colloquializmz

>the new and old testament...contains many
>contradictions...and the god's dominion aint that
>tight...angry vengeful dude that cant even find adam hiding
>in the garden..

share your thoughts, whats contraditing?

peace aqui
where in the old testament does it talk about life after death

>peace aqui
>where in the old testament does it talk about life after
>death

peace
right here:
Daniel 12

1   And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2   And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3   And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

what do you mean by compatible?

Peace
H

uhm... actually, they are compatible. each is an abrahamitic religion - just like judaism, btw...

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rakim - oh my god
ras kass - goldyn chyld
hi-tek - hi-teknology 2
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daft punk - tbd
bob sinclair - ill
jonell - know me
tekitha - wisdom body

somewhat...

you will find more correlation in the kiber negast and the coptic "version" (one of the original versions...discuss) christianity and their older spin on things....

so much so that one of the early protectors of islam was christians...king negus of ethopia to be exact....because he believed in the "prophet" to come...and never believed that "god" prefered one child over another...or would leave ANY people devoid of the "message"....in fact one hadith of the muhammad (saw) basically told his companions (and the rest of us) to respect the blood of the abassi (ethopians0 cause their "blood flows through our veins"..allahu alim (god knows best) what he meant...

judiasm in general was never meant to be sectarian...in fact you will find in its historical roots (the baal worshipers of egypt..expelled, yadda yadda..moses is unknopwn to written history exceept via jewish/hebrew tradition, and also via quranic texts and "arabanized
tribal traditions) the latter jewish traditions can be compared to how people tried to introduce changes to islam (read the living torah) the muatazillah who tried to place litteral context to yad (hand) and arsh (throne?)...and their misfits of today the "salafiyyah" who turn islam into a "religion" and makebelieve arabism..the human condition continues....

anyway..i am sure you guys s know that none of this stuff is "new"

_________________________
Life is but a dream,
Drifting on a stream, a stream,
Consciously it seems,
All of what remains,
Ego Brain,
And they shame,
Shame, love after it rains,
You see my pain is real,
Watch my world dissolve,
And pretend tha

why do mofos get bent outta shape over interpretations? and those ones specifically


"the muatazillah .....and their misfits of today the "salafiyyah" who turn islam into a "religion" and makebelieve arabism..the human condition continues...."

could you elaborate on this statement?

what interpretation?

and lets start there...

aqaid..the study of the tennents of islam

aqidah...muslim "creed" (whateva)..anyway...if i said muhammad wasnt th elast messenget it takes me off the intended goal of the salaf ("rightly guided first community")...when i branch from the accepted aqidah i form a "sect"...muslims were promised more sects than the jews and christians...but the actual way will remain clear...soooooooooo if i say allah is a man in a chair..i think that strays away from the the given aqaid...and therefore it forms a sect...we were told that its like cancer..if you dont cut it off it will spread and kill the entire ummah (impossible..muslims will actually be "destroyed" but the non-muslims..different story)...so the muatazillah according to any scholor worth his marbles is i sect...and they were faught...ibn sirin and hassan al basri (from basra in iraq..buried there now..may allah enoble the teachers of imam abu hanifah and the keepers of this sacred business..those who devoted their lives to the study and preservation of islam while we bicker about their worth)...named them so...and the rasoolullah (saw) praised him...and you can get his book on dream interpretation at the 14th street masjid in atlanta for 25 bucks, more than worth it...

there isnt room for "interpretation"...interpretation keeps women in burkas, stones women for adultry and ignores men, and makes muslims ashamed of beards and hijabs...

nothing personal..dont wish to start a corny flame war...neither of us will benefit from that...so if its win you want to win...say thats what you want..and ill crown you the king of the okay player boards...and go back to my boring life...late

_________________________
Life is but a dream,
Drifting on a stream, a stream,
Consciously it seems,
All of what remains,
Ego Brain,
And they shame,
Shame, love after it rains,
You see my pain is real,
Watch my world dissolve,
And pretend tha

sulliallah wa alahi wa salim where it belongs...may allah enoble his sirr (secret)...amin..

_________________________
Life is but a dream,
Drifting on a stream, a stream,
Consciously it seems,
All of what remains,
Ego Brain,
And they shame,
Shame, love after it rains,
You see my pain is real,
Watch my world dissolve,
And pretend tha

Aren't Judaism, Islam, and Christianity at their root- before the new interpretation of Law, before St. Augustine, and the 2nd temple movement, or Kalifs...aren't they basically just lifestyle guides following the same God? Where religion is really based on individual struggle, and the Sects of Christianity, Judiasm , and Islam speak more to community order?

I mean...before James sent those messengers to bug Paul in Antioch, and before the Esseen movement grew in strength among the Jews, and before 4th Kalif and what comes with having to establish boudaries during these events...

Were they so disimlar?

I mean can't one STILL be a jew without changing religion- just by following Koshuit law?

Isn't Judiasm then, the base?

I'm confused as hell.


----------------------
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_______________________

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"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

>Aren't Judaism, Islam, and Christianity at their root-
>before the new interpretation of Law, before St. Augustine,
>and the 2nd temple movement,

yes...i know you know this already (you arent your avg cat...there are alot of you ppl here)..christianity started as a sect of judiasm..but jews werent the only monotheistic group ever...you would find that the historical roots (everythng has a root we see and one we dont) of judiasm is kmt...the truth of the matter is that it was inspired by this "supreme lord" we tend to call in english "god" (from good in german...and good isnt always "good"..what we know is based on perception..and god takes the life off little kids...those who know..know its all good...and those who dont feel the pain and refuse to letgo of whats passing...i suffer from the same illness..and its human)

or Kalifs..

sorta...if you remember the 4th khalif was ali ibn abi talib (muawiyyah wanted those who took the blood of uthman, the persians..to pay the blood money...ali didnt want to be the knalif..but when you are appointed by the people its you job...there is an islamic saying that the best one for the leadership role is the one who wants it the least...and he begged them to leave him alone)..the khalifs (amir al muminin) had the job of solidifying the muslim community...

abu bakr (ra), keeping the muslim community together and enforcing the zakat laws, especially with the beduin....who the messenger loved..note islam still tends to spread among the "low" in socety...we were promised this also..abu bakr (ra) didnt want to be khalif

umar (ra), protecting the muslim community..atttacked the romans in egypt, palestine, and syria who threatened to attack them though they had a "treaty"...well they won..and note the "arabs" (lol) are there now...didnt want to be khalif either..complained while he was khalif that it was too much of a trial for him)..

uthman...islam all the way to spain morocco...actually it was alot of open dessert and they just "marched' to the ocean..very little conflict...there were small north african jewish communities which still survived till ww2 and later qadafi (dumb name)...he held the spirit that people can do what they want as long as they dont infringe on the rights of others...must pay the jizyah tax (a 15% tax on capital wealth...what you had on hand at tax time..) because they didnt have to fight...uthman did part of that to stom the inpending roman backlash which they were promised...uthman didnt want it either

ali..didnt want it..but this was when islam encountered its biggest trial..with any civilization there comes a time that scores must be setteled...its like friends who argue..america had its civil war..islam had its battle over which was right..seeking retribution for a murder then having a leader..or having a leader then seeking retribution...bioth were right...but the people wanted blood...ali told his people that the peoples desires are reflected in their leader (basically) and he was right...the funny thing about muslims (the good ones from long ago)...the syrian christians found it odd that they would meet each other kiss each other...hug cry...but they were at war....it all ended..but that ushered in an era in islamic history where 2 empires (umayyads/"abasi"ds)..and thus ushered in the "scholorly age" in which the laws we know of today as muslims hold weight...the khalifs didnt adjust or change the law but look at this and reflect on what you know of islamic law and you will see a correlation...


aren't they
>basically just lifestyle guides following the same God?

sorta..

>Where religion is really based on individual struggle, and
>the Sects of Christianity, Judiasm , and Islam speak more to
>community order?

sorta..

>I mean...before James sent those messengers to bug Paul in
>Antioch, and before the Esseen movement grew in strength
>among the Jews, and before 4th Kalif and what comes with
>having to establish boudaries during these events...
>
>Were they so disimlar?

"religions all have the same father but different mothers"

>I mean can't one STILL be a jew without changing religion-
>just by following Koshuit law?

dont know..

>Isn't Judiasm then, the base?

the base in the unseen is "god' in the seen its the "stone cult" an ancient "semetic" group of people who worshiped some unseen "god" by making altars and walking around them odd times usually 7....the branch we see today is the semitic group...there were egyptian groups, s african, w african, central american, blah...the ones we see are of the semite group...and they are all different is law (mother) but same in faith (father)

>I'm confused as hell.

its easy...2 ways seen and unseen...i never saw china but i believe its there...
>
>----------------------
>Avatar? Nea onnim sua a, ohu; nea odwen se onim dodo no, se
>ogyae sua a, ketewa no koraa a onim no firi ne nsa.
>_______________________
>
>"Eat breakfast yourself, share your lunch with a friend, and
>give your supper to your enemy." Ancient Chinese Proverb
>
>Give back:
>www.jampact.org.
>
>Currently Playing:
>
>Cee-lo: ceelo green...
>Incubus: Morning view
>Common: Electric Circus
>Vivian Green: A love story
>Soullive: Next
>Lucky Dube: Serious Reggae Business
>Jimi Hendrix: Best of/Experience
>Les Nubians: One step forward
>The Roots: Phrenology
>Collective Efforts: Visions of things to come

_________________________
Life is but a dream,
Drifting on a stream, a stream,
Consciously it seems,
All of what remains,
Ego Brain,
And they shame,
Shame, love after it rains,
You see my pain is real,
Watch my world dissolve,
And pretend tha

I guess I was on the right road in the beginning when I first came to this site then. Transcendentalism.

ugh.

Religion.

----------------------
Avatar? Nea onnim sua a, ohu; nea odwen se onim dodo no, se ogyae sua a, ketewa no koraa a onim no firi ne nsa.
_______________________

"Eat breakfast yourself, share your lunch with a friend, and give your supper to your enemy." Ancient Chinese Proverb

Give back:
www.jampact.org.

Currently Playing:

Cee-lo: ceelo green...
Incubus: Morning view
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Les Nubians: One step forward
The Roots: Phrenology
Collective Efforts: Visions of things to come

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

There is no way that Allah would ever and the Rock means ever send his only begotten Son to die for our sins.

There is no way that Allah would ever come down as a human and die for our sins. And I mean ever.

That is the whole contridiction. Did God come down and die. Now this is a big deal because if determines your view of God.

It determines your world view, it determines how one views salvation. It determines how one becomes righteous before God. Whether one is at peace with God or whether one is his enemy. etc

So the very foundations of both books are at total ends of the spectrum.

------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

>There is no way that Allah would ever and the Rock means
>ever send his only begotten Son to die for our sins.

Honestly, did you really have to invoke that corny wrestling line into this?

>There is no way that Allah would ever come down as a human
>and die for our sins. And I mean ever.
>
>That is the whole contridiction. Did God come down and die.
>Now this is a big deal because if determines your view of
>God.
>
>It determines your world view, it determines how one views
>salvation. It determines how one becomes righteous before
>God. Whether one is at peace with God or whether one is his
>enemy. etc
>
>So the very foundations of both books are at total ends of
>the spectrum.

In your logic, I agree (save the parts about God "dying") but there is a fundemental question to ask next:

Since you obviously believe the God of the Bible (YHWH) and the God of the Qur'an (Allah) are not the same because (in your view) the God of the Bible died on a cross and is a Trinity (3 persons in 1 God) and not One Entity as God, does that also mean you believe the God of Judaism is also not the same God as the one you believe in?

The reason I ask is because Christianity is based in Judaism, and Jews do not believe in a triune God or that God died on a cross. I don't think anyone in the Old Testament saw God as triune either, so are you saying the entire Hebrew tradition which became the roots of Judaism is also false?

And please don't respond with "progressive revelation" because although that might apply to the people in the Bible, it does not to modern Jews.




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>Since you obviously believe the God of the Bible (YHWH) and
>the God of the Qur'an (Allah) are not the same because (in
>your view) the God of the Bible died on a cross and is a
>Trinity (3 persons in 1 God) and not One Entity as God, does
>that also mean you believe the God of Judaism is also not
>the same God as the one you believe in?
>
>The reason I ask is because Christianity is based in
>Judaism, and Jews do not believe in a triune God or that God
>died on a cross. I don't think anyone in the Old Testament
>saw God as triune either, so are you saying the entire
>Hebrew tradition which became the roots of Judaism is also
>false?

>And please don't respond with "progressive revelation"
>because although that might apply to the people in the
>Bible, it does not to modern Jews.

why do you think those that call themselves Jews dont believe in Christ? because they arent the Jews of the Bible.

>Honestly, did you really have to invoke that corny wrestling
>line into this?

Response: Oh of course. The Rock is the best.
>In your logic, I agree (save the parts about God "dying")
>but there is a fundemental question to ask next:
>
>Since you obviously believe the God of the Bible (YHWH) and
>the God of the Qur'an (Allah) are not the same because (in
>your view) the God of the Bible died on a cross and is a
>Trinity (3 persons in 1 God) and not One Entity as God, does
>that also mean you believe the God of Judaism is also not
>the same God as the one you believe in?

Response: No I would not go that far. I just think that the Jews do not have the complete view of God. Their view of God is not the finished modal.
>
>The reason I ask is because Christianity is based in
>Judaism, and Jews do not believe in a triune God or that God
>died on a cross. I don't think anyone in the Old Testament
>saw God as triune either, so are you saying the entire
>Hebrew tradition which became the roots of Judaism is also
>false?

Response: Well first of all there are some jews who do believe in a triune God. We call them messianic jews and they accept that Jesus has died on the cross. And again, I think that Judaism is not complete. It has some truth within it, but I don't see it as being complete. The only way for it too be complete is through them acknowledging the truth of Christ.

Remember Christ called himself the *way*. The way is the *way* away from Judaism. Because he is the truth and the life.
>
>And please don't respond with "progressive revelation"
>because although that might apply to the people in the
>Bible, it does not to modern Jews.

Response: I think it does apply to not only modern day jews, but to all people in all aspects of life. I don't view it as a book without any significance for today.

------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

dialogue here and other than Ioness,abduhu,Troll, and Delete Me I really don't see anyone in here who seems to be trying to attack the subject matter the way I thought ya'll might. I realize that in someways this topic is subjective, but there are some rock solid facts about the Qur'an and the Bible, and the Torah that need to be discussed in depth here. I'm interested in the relationship between the three, and where exactly there became a change that created deep schisms from a religion that damn near coulda incoporated ALL THREE principles as one at one point.

Where the hell is Greg Soundz, Jennyfer...Intelligently 95?

Or someone who can actually contribute without the non partisan rhetoric?

For real?

So we understand that Christianity is a reform movement of Judiasm. We also understand thatIslam is also branches from Judiasm right (I could be wrong- but I think this is true)?

So then, aren't we (Christian and their derivities, Islam and it's derivitives, and Judiasm and it's derivites) all worshipping the same God?

I look at basic characteristics that disguish the three:

Islam- Theology beyond the 5 pillars and Qur'an
*submission
*Islam distances God from Humans
*God is powerful and brings fear and awe (not a coincidence Bush used this phrase.
*Fear is appropiate in the power of God
*Once fear is conquered, there is peace, and God is
compassionate.
*Hadith as Gospel
*Shihada, Salat,etc...
*Sufism, Shiites, sunni, 5%s, Nation of Islam,etc
Jihad- struggle

Christianity- The followers of Jesus

*Non acceptance of Sadducees, Pharasees, and Zealots in favor of following Esseens (Baptist ascetics).
*After Peter and Paul's influence (Highly influenced by Roman society- Paul frequented Antioch) the adoption of ancient Kemetic/Pharonic principles of Sun on the Cross (which was later used by Romans to depict the power of Ceasar, and was watered down to the title "King of Kings, Lord of Lords",or phrases like "Sun of God", or "My lord".
*Repentance, through Jesus as a way to salvation.
*Catholicism, Protestantism,Eastern Orthodox...
*Evangelism/Apocalypticism, as opposed to personal undertanding/struggle with God because of the "bail out" of Jesus.

Judiasm-
*Torah
*Nevi'ium
*Ketuvim
*The 4 composities (Priestly, Duetoronomists,Je', Elohimists
*YHWH
*Mesopotamian story of Adapa, and it's relationship to Adam.
*The creation stories
*The temple periods, and the changing of Mitvah interpretations.
*Talmut,Tanakh
*Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, reconstructionist, Hebrew Israelites, Lemba...
*Israel- One who stuggles with God
*God is everywhere


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Currently Playing:

Cee-lo: ceelo green...
Incubus: Morning view
Common: Electric Circus
Vivian Green: A love story
Soullive: Next
Lucky Dube: Serious Reggae Business
Jimi Hendrix: Best of/Experience
Les Nubians: One step forward
The Roots: Phrenology
Collective Efforts: Visions of things to come

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

only comes out from under her(?) rock when osoclasi makes his second (and third, fourth, fifth, kwk.) coming after having died on the cross (i.e. not posting for long periods of time).

Just when you don't think he ever existed BAM, he's back but gone in the blink of an eye.

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

----------------------
Avatar? Nea onnim sua a, ohu; nea odwen se onim dodo no, se ogyae sua a, ketewa no koraa a onim no firi ne nsa.
_______________________

"Eat breakfast yourself, share your lunch with a friend, and give your supper to your enemy." Ancient Chinese Proverb

Give back:
www.jampact.org.

Currently Playing:

Cee-lo: ceelo green...
Incubus: Morning view
Common: Electric Circus
Vivian Green: A love story
Soullive: Next
Lucky Dube: Serious Reggae Business
Jimi Hendrix: Best of/Experience
Les Nubians: One step forward
The Roots: Phrenology
Collective Efforts: Visions of things to come

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

He disturbed a peaceful suburban neighborhood in panama...
Anyone that disturbs and entire neighborhood needs daily F.B.I surveilence(sp)
*smile*

*Poof* Ta Da!!

Solarus are you implying that Osoclasi and I are the same person..???

Cause we aren't ...see he goes

Response:

And i go

...

He's a Strict Calvinist (I think he is )

and I on the other hand...Hold "desperately" to a Moderate Calvinist view...

See totally different people....my font even looks different...

*smile*

>dialogue here and other than Ioness,abduhu,Troll, and Delete
>Me

*ahem* I direct your attention to myself and Oso.

I really don't see anyone in here who seems to be trying
>to attack the subject matter the way I thought ya'll might.

Maybe with war stories still looming and people involved in their own personal lives theology has taken a back burner in peoples minds.

> I realize that in someways this topic is subjective,

Not for people who believe in any of "the big 3".

but
>there are some rock solid facts about the Qur'an and the
>Bible, and the Torah that need to be discussed in depth
>here. I'm interested in the relationship between the three,

So am I. I was actually surprised to see you make this post cuz I thought you had basically given up on Abrahamic monotheism and was just interested in Kemetic and traditional Afrikan spirituality.

>and where exactly there became a change that created deep
>schisms from a religion that damn near coulda incoporated
>ALL THREE principles as one at one point.

I think the doctrines themselves (the new revelations) were the "schisms". As the Bible notes itself, jews/hebrews/israelites were NOT tryin to hear what Christ was saying. And by the same token I don't think most christians by the 6th century were going to accept a doctrine that basically changes the fundemental basis of their belifs. The obvious exception is with the Ethiopians who I think sheltered or helped the Prophet or Muslims but by the time Christianity was the official Roman religion I believe there wasn't much room for outside reformation.

Another reason could be cultural circumstances. Islam came from Arabs (who I believe were mostly non-Christians) and not internally in the "Christian world" (esp. Romans) so I'm sure that would have made any attempt in "blending" the 2 (or 3 rather) even harder.

>Where the hell is Greg Soundz, Jennyfer...Intelligently 95?

Don't know about Greg, haven't seen Jennyfer in the longest (Oso is basically saying the same things that she probably would, anyhow) and I don't see why Intell would engage in this discussion since Im sure he believes all are false doctrines. Maybe Im wrong, tho.

>Or someone who can actually contribute without the non
>partisan rhetoric?
>
>For real?

I am non-partisan!

>So we understand that Christianity is a reform movement of
>Judiasm. We also understand thatIslam is also branches from
>Judiasm right (I could be wrong- but I think this is true)?

I think so. But I would add that modern Jews, Christians and Muslims have their own respective differences and probably see their personal faiths as indivisual and not some "branch" (despite the fact that they all have the same or similar roots).
I mean, there's the whole "outreach" program to jews from rightwing Christians, but I think the aforementioned cultural circumstances and specific differences in doctrine is what led to the complete branching away of them all.

>So then, aren't we (Christian and their derivities, Islam
>and it's derivitives, and Judiasm and it's derivites) all
>worshipping the same God?

To me, yeah. But to some people, no. For the reason I listed above about people today understanding their faith as indivisualistic and not trying to incorporate outsiders who are clearly a different religion.

Then there's the doctrine. Obviously the majority of Christians today believe God is triune, only allows forgiveness through recognizing the cruisifixtion/resurrection and does not have a messanger named Mohammad. Just like Muslims believe God should be called Allah, is One, and is not a human. And does not allow association.

Despite the VAST amounts of similarities and downright same principles, it is (IMO) futile to not recognize the largest 2 differences that speak to all 3:

-The Old Testament does not correlate with the Qur'an in an exact way when the issue of Abraham's chosen seed comes into the spotlight because the nation of Israel (though Issac and Jacob onward) is the fundemental basis of Old Testament life (as far people in the nation worshipping that specific God).

-The New Testament does not correlate with the Qur'an when it comes to the life, role and death/ascention of Christ/Isa.

Keep in mind that I am NOT saying these things to be divisive
but am saying them to address the few fundemental reasons why Islam, Christianity and Judaism (and their modern followers) have never been, are not and probably won't ever be fully intergrated. It's just the difference(s) in what PEOPLE believe today.

>I look at basic characteristics that disguish the three:
>
> Islam- Theology beyond the 5 pillars and Qur'an
>*submission
>*Islam distances God from Humans
>*God is powerful and brings fear and awe (not a coincidence
>Bush used this phrase.

lol, like the last poets said ("white mans got a God complex")

>*Fear is appropiate in the power of God
>*Once fear is conquered, there is peace, and God is
> compassionate.
>*Hadith as Gospel
>*Shihada, Salat,etc...
>*Sufism, Shiites, sunni, 5%s, Nation of Islam,etc
>Jihad- struggle

I dont think most Muslims would consider 5%ers really part of the Ummah anymore than Christians would consider those Clocktower (JW) people "real christians". Maybe Im wrong, though.

> Christianity- The followers of Jesus
>
>*Non acceptance of Sadducees, Pharasees, and Zealots in
>favor of following Esseens (Baptist ascetics).
>*After Peter and Paul's influence (Highly influenced by
>Roman society- Paul frequented Antioch) the adoption of
>ancient Kemetic/Pharonic principles of Sun on the Cross
>(which was later used by Romans to depict the power of
>Ceasar, and was watered down to the title "King of Kings,
>Lord of Lords",or phrases like "Sun of God", or "My lord".

So do you believe the Bible is a victim of revisionism? Do you see the cruisifixion and resurrection as blatant plagarism?

>*Repentance, through Jesus as a way to salvation.
>*Catholicism, Protestantism,Eastern Orthodox...
>*Evangelism/Apocalypticism, as opposed to personal
>undertanding/struggle with God because of the "bail out" of
>Jesus.

lol, I concur.

> Judiasm-
>*Torah
>*Nevi'ium
>*Ketuvim
>*The 4 composities (Priestly, Duetoronomists,Je', Elohimists
>*YHWH

YHWH is directly translated as LORD (all 4 letters capped) in the Bible (mostly if not compeltly in the OT, I dont think Christ is called LORD which speaks volumes about the 'trinity').

>*Mesopotamian story of Adapa, and it's relationship to Adam.
>*The creation stories
>*The temple periods, and the changing of Mitvah
>interpretations.
>*Talmut,Tanakh
>*Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, reconstructionist, Hebrew
>Israelites, Lemba...
>*Israel- One who stuggles with God

Interesting how you point this out. I think my understanding was that people saw israel (and the hebrews that would eventually inhabit it) as more physical until the NT where the "salvation" and personal knowledge of God becomes more important than following religious doctrine word by word and upholding physical property.

As always, I could be wrong.

>*God is everywhere


As for your comments on me being defensive, I'm not. Just engaging in debate. If I seemed that way it was because four different people quoted my original posts and attempted to counter virtually everything I said. It's no hard feelings.



------

Fox has got nothin' on us.

Okayplayers guerilla love
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Make sure you know the guidelines before posting: http://okayplayer.com/guidelines

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---
In memory of my sig..

here already.

Part of following the rules of debate for muslims is to leave a good answer alone. Anything else would only be ego.

Salaam
H

question, or attempting to at least. I figured If I listed the main differences, we could talk about the similarities.




----------------------
Avatar? Nea onnim sua a, ohu; nea odwen se onim dodo no, se ogyae sua a, ketewa no koraa a onim no firi ne nsa.
_______________________

"Eat breakfast yourself, share your lunch with a friend, and give your supper to your enemy." Ancient Chinese Proverb

Give back:
www.jampact.org.

Currently Playing:

Cee-lo: ceelo green...
Incubus: Morning view
Common: Electric Circus
Vivian Green: A love story
Soullive: Next
Lucky Dube: Serious Reggae Business
Jimi Hendrix: Best of/Experience
Les Nubians: One step forward
The Roots: Phrenology
Collective Efforts: Visions of things to come

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

but as muslims we believe in all the books

but the Qur'an is the clarification and affirmation of the previous works

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

>dialogue here and other than Ioness,abduhu,Troll, and Delete
>Me I really don't see anyone in here who seems to be trying
>to attack the subject matter the way I thought ya'll might.
> I realize that in someways this topic is subjective, but
>there are some rock solid facts about the Qur'an and the
>Bible, and the Torah that need to be discussed in depth
>here. I'm interested in the relationship between the three,
>and where exactly there became a change that created deep
>schisms from a religion that damn near coulda incoporated
>ALL THREE principles as one at one point.
>
>Where the hell is Greg Soundz, Jennyfer...Intelligently 95?
>
>Or someone who can actually contribute without the non
>partisan rhetoric?
>
>For real?
>
>So we understand that Christianity is a reform movement of
>Judiasm. We also understand thatIslam is also branches from
>Judiasm right (I could be wrong- but I think this is true)?
>
>So then, aren't we (Christian and their derivities, Islam
>and it's derivitives, and Judiasm and it's derivites) all
>worshipping the same God?
>
>I look at basic characteristics that disguish the three:
>
> Islam- Theology beyond the 5 pillars and Qur'an
>*submission
>*Islam distances God from Humans
>*God is powerful and brings fear and awe (not a coincidence
>Bush used this phrase.
>*Fear is appropiate in the power of God
>*Once fear is conquered, there is peace, and God is
> compassionate.
>*Hadith as Gospel
>*Shihada, Salat,etc...
>*Sufism, Shiites, sunni, 5%s, Nation of Islam,etc
>Jihad- struggle
>
> Christianity- The followers of Jesus
>
>*Non acceptance of Sadducees, Pharasees, and Zealots in
>favor of following Esseens (Baptist ascetics).
>*After Peter and Paul's influence (Highly influenced by
>Roman society- Paul frequented Antioch) the adoption of
>ancient Kemetic/Pharonic principles of Sun on the Cross
>(which was later used by Romans to depict the power of
>Ceasar, and was watered down to the title "King of Kings,
>Lord of Lords",or phrases like "Sun of God", or "My lord".
>*Repentance, through Jesus as a way to salvation.
>*Catholicism, Protestantism,Eastern Orthodox...
>*Evangelism/Apocalypticism, as opposed to personal
>undertanding/struggle with God because of the "bail out" of
>Jesus.
>
> Judiasm-
>*Torah
>*Nevi'ium
>*Ketuvim
>*The 4 composities (Priestly, Duetoronomists,Je', Elohimists
>*YHWH
>*Mesopotamian story of Adapa, and it's relationship to Adam.
>*The creation stories
>*The temple periods, and the changing of Mitvah
>interpretations.
>*Talmut,Tanakh
>*Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, reconstructionist, Hebrew
>Israelites, Lemba...
>*Israel- One who stuggles with God
>*God is everywhere


if you wanted just their views then why not just inbox them, why post about it and complain about the response you receive.

so majority of the replies believe they are not compatible now your question is "arent they all worshipping the same God".

now your next question should be who is doing it correctly. It would be very good to see the replies.

and by the way, your charteristics of Christianty is all wrong and that's what happens when you lean toward man's interpatations.

"Wherefore get wisdom and with all thy getting get understanding"

keep settling for those short, quick answers and look at you your still confused.

with the exception to anything that you had to contribute. This includes entire mini-threads you have created or participated in.

You have proven incapable of an objective, clear minded, youthful (in curiosity, and in spirit) approach to topics on Religion- even on your own cannon.

That's fine. It's just like when you get a CD that has a few song you don't like...I just skip over the track, or listen to it again to reaffirm my disdain for it.

That's life.

Read about Obediah (again). Questioning isn't wrong.


----------------------
Avatar? Nea onnim sua a, ohu; nea odwen se onim dodo no, se ogyae sua a, ketewa no koraa a onim no firi ne nsa.
_______________________

"Eat breakfast yourself, share your lunch with a friend, and give your supper to your enemy." Ancient Chinese Proverb

Give back:
www.jampact.org.

Currently Playing:

Cee-lo: ceelo green...
Incubus: Morning view
Common: Electric Circus
Vivian Green: A love story
Soullive: Next
Lucky Dube: Serious Reggae Business
Jimi Hendrix: Best of/Experience
Les Nubians: One step forward
The Roots: Phrenology
Collective Efforts: Visions of things to come

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

To my belief the bible and the Qur'an in not compatible because the bible has been translated over and over again by the europeans. Kings James which had the has his version and numerous of others. By the orginal bible was the egyptian papyrus which was the orginal bible. I will eleborate more but for now got to get back to being productive. I will research more and explain more about the Qur'an on my next visit

In all your getting, get overstanding.

>To my belief the bible and the Qur'an in not compatible
>because the bible has been translated over and over again by
>the europeans. Kings James which had the has his version and
>numerous of others. By the orginal bible was the egyptian
>papyrus which was the orginal bible. I will eleborate more
>but for now got to get back to being productive. I will
>research more and explain more about the Qur'an on my next
>visit

To be honest, the Bible has been translated directly into English from both Greek and Hebrew/Aramaic and they aren't worlds a part from "European" translated Bibles. Then you have archeological finds of lost scrolls from the late BC days o early AD (e.g., dead sea scrolls) containing copies of the Old Testament which are largely the same as ordinary Bibles (once translated) used in the West.

I think any disparity would lie in 2 factors:

-how loose or how literally the text were translated/transliterated.

-The anglicizing of names, places, people, culture etc. and not the doctrine itself.







------

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Make sure you know the guidelines before posting: http://okayplayer.com/guidelines

Not happy about your post being locked? Want a thread archived? See a post that shouldn't be up? Feel free to Inbox me at Quest4Knowledge or E-Mail me at KemeticSunrise@aol.com

---
In memory of my sig..

>To my belief the bible and the Qur'an in not compatible
>because the bible has been translated over and over again by
>the europeans. Kings James which had the has his version and
>numerous of others. By the orginal bible was the egyptian
>papyrus which was the orginal bible. I will eleborate more
>but for now got to get back to being productive. I will
>research more and explain more about the Qur'an on my next
>visit

I read the Bible in the original (largely) Hebrew. Don't tell me about European translations.

The first thing to keep in mind is that The Bible as we know it today is incompatible for one important reason. We have 66 separate books that are treated as one complete "novel". In reality these books were never written with the intent of compiling them into one complete "story". In most cases the writer(s) of a given text never read, referred to, or even heard of the other texts. The numerous discrepancies we find between texts is largely due to this fact in addition to many others.

When we add the Koran into this confusion it only gets worse. While Islam would not exist without the Hebrew and Christian traditions, the very core of Islam was intended to be a reformation of what wasn't happening in those traditions. Much in the same way that Christianity was a critique of Judaism, Islam was a critique of both traditions. For this reason the similiarities between the traditions are definitely outweighed by the differences. Islam was a new way of thinking and being in relationship to Allah.

-----------------------------------
"much obliged" - Bubs

follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/soundz714

And I wasn't looking for affirmation, but after reading these responses I think I can be satisfied on where my inquiries have taken me.




----------------------
Avatar? Nea onnim sua a, ohu; nea odwen se onim dodo no, se ogyae sua a, ketewa no koraa a onim no firi ne nsa.
_______________________

"Eat breakfast yourself, share your lunch with a friend, and give your supper to your enemy." Ancient Chinese Proverb

Give back:
www.jampact.org.

Currently Playing:

Cee-lo: ceelo green...
Incubus: Morning view
Common: Electric Circus
Vivian Green: A love story
Soullive: Next
Lucky Dube: Serious Reggae Business
Jimi Hendrix: Best of/Experience
Les Nubians: One step forward
The Roots: Phrenology
Collective Efforts: Visions of things to come

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

...Christianity is not a Critique of Judaism...Rather it's a Progression of God's Revelation...The OT and NT are very compatible... the NT is the best commentary for the OT...Examples lay within the prophecies of the coming Messiah beginning in Genesis 3: 15.... (Prophecy being revealed Matt. 1, Luke 2, further explaination Gal. 4: 4)
and also the Sacrificial Atonement system that pointed towards the Messiah..Laws that revealed that that Sacrificial system would eventually saving factor for all those who believe in the One who paid for their sin debt.

*************************Sidenote***************************
This Messiah also visited the OT Patriarchs recognized as the Angel of YHWH

************************************************************
Now as for The Islamic take on the OT and NT....We have a number of categories.... which make it a critique and not progression in God of the OT and NT's revelation

1- They believed the Qur'an supercedes all previous revelations...and Muhammad (saws) Being the greatest Prophet..Better than any other Prophet that set foot on earth...
Even Isa (Even though Isa was noted as without sin in the Qur'an and Muhammad having a sinfest all through both The Qur'an and Hadiths Hmmmmm....)


2- Their belief that Scriptures had been forged or tampered with...(sura 4:48-49)

3- These "mistakes" caused Christ to be and Incarnation of God instead of the Human prophet he really was.. (For the record I believe Christ is both Fully human and Fully God...that's just to make it clear of my view in the Messiah)

Now contrary to popular belief the NT doesn't Supercede the OT and Vise Versa they compliment one another.. and the Qur'an does not compliment either one.... I.E. Origin of Creation, and of Adam. Location of Adam after Creation, Reasons Why Satan was expelled out of heaven, Rank of Supernatural beings and Natural beings, Story of Noah, Nature of God, etc. and that's not even all the diffrences with the just the OT... Let's utilize some problems between The Qur'an and the NT.......

Sura 4: 156...."And for their saying, Verily we have slain the Messiah, Jesus, the Son of Mary, an Apostle of God, Yet they Slew Him not and they Crucified him not, but they had only his likeness. And they who differed about him were in doubt concerning him: No sure knowledge they had about him, but they followed only opinion, and they did not really slay him, but God took him up to Himself. And God is Mighty and wise..."

sura 5: 19 "Infidels now are they who say Verily God is the Messiah Ibn Maryam! Say: And who could aught obtain from God, If he chose to Destroy the Messiah Ibn Maryam and his mother and all who are on the earth together?"

Now with that being said .....if you have a Qur'an in the area...

Go to Sura 3: 79 then 5: 50, 52, & 56 <------WOW! *Smiles*

I tend to agree with GS's comments, at least that's what I have encountered in my studies of Christianity/Islam/Judiasm.

Interesting stuff. I'ma have to get up on this an' think on it for a minute.

Thanks for sharing.


----------------------
Avatar? Nea onnim sua a, ohu; nea odwen se onim dodo no, se ogyae sua a, ketewa no koraa a onim no firi ne nsa.
_______________________

"Eat breakfast yourself, share your lunch with a friend, and give your supper to your enemy." Ancient Chinese Proverb

Give back:
www.jampact.org.

Currently Playing:

Cee-lo: ceelo green...
Incubus: Morning view
Common: Electric Circus
Vivian Green: A love story
Soullive: Next
Lucky Dube: Serious Reggae Business
Jimi Hendrix: Best of/Experience
Les Nubians: One step forward
The Roots: Phrenology
Collective Efforts: Visions of things to come

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

You're mistaking the account of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus as found in the New Testatment as an impartial and seamless progression of prophesied events. The use of Old Testament scriptures to prove that Jesus is/was the prophesied Messiah is a practice called 'midrash'. Midrash is a type of Jewish commentary on the Scriptures intended to explain their meaning and apply them to the situations in which the interpreters lived. In order to give legitimacy to the Jesus Movement the writers of the Gospels turned to the Old Testament scriptures and interpreted them throught a Christological lens.
The most famous passages in Isaiah for example, have NOTHING to do with Jesus of Nazareth but they have been misinterpreted as proof of the his Messiah-ship.

The teachings of Jesus were definitely a critique of modern Jewish practice. In fact the early Jesus Movement was not a separate religion but a Jewish sect just like the Essenes, Zealots, Pharisees and others. The history of Judaism is filled with those who saught a new way to practice this faith. Jesus did not intend to create a new religion but bring new life into what was already founded. If you look at the early debates of the church in Acts, they were dealing with questions and issues pertaining to Judaism rather than some new religion (ex. circumcision, food sacrificed to idols). Furthermore the account of the Holy Spirit visting the disciples on the Day of Pentecost(Shavuot) happened while they were celebrating a JEWISH holiday. Christians speak of the Day of Pentecost as though it is the title of a significant day in Christian history however the Day of Pentecost is and will always be a JEWISH event. The disciples and all other follwers within the Jesus Movement were indeed Jews who broke off from mainstream Judaism and formed their own sect. I must reiterate that this was not something new. The Essenes did the same thing and moved outside of Jerusalem to worship Yahweh. It is from this sect that we now have The Dead Sea Scrolls. It is also believed/speculated that because Jesus was reared outside of Jerusalem he was influenced by the Essenes. It is without question however that his teacher John the Baptist was indeed part of this sect at one point.

There is much more evidence I could contribute however I think it is important to see the foundation of Christianity (early Jesus Movement) as what it truly was. It was a critique of Judaism as practiced in Jerusalem.

-----------------------------------
"much obliged" - Bubs

follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/soundz714

>You're mistaking the account of the life, death and
>resurrection of Jesus as found in the New Testatment as an
>impartial and seamless progression of prophesied events.

On the contrary, im not mistaking anything ...what you seem to be missing is that not once did Jesus Critique the *OT* or the *Laws of the OT*. He Called out the Teachers Of the Law....The Pharisees and the Sadducces because they were hypocrites in not only their lack of ability to follow all the laws 100% then wagging their finger at other peoples issues but also that they were follow things that fell on the Outside of the OT Orthodox.....Matt 23: 2-4 So who/what is really being critiqized?? The Scriptures (OT) was held in High regard by Christ... He referred to them Frequently. Matt: 22:29-32 *Luke 24:25; 27; 45 **Jn: 5:39

This is not the same thing that occurs in the Qur'an it actually Criticizes both the people who follow the OT and/or NT and the Book it's self.




In order
>to give legitimacy to the Jesus Movement the writers of the
>Gospels turned to the Old Testament scriptures and
>interpreted them throught a Christological lens.

Im glad to see that you know more than the actual Witnesses that walked with Christ and scribed the NT, with the help of God, within the same generation where Christ Died and Rose.( Father Son and Holy Spirit) Luke 1:2 2Peter 1:16, 2Tim 3:15-16


>The most famous passages in Isaiah for example, have NOTHING
>to do with Jesus of Nazareth but they have been
>misinterpreted as proof of the his Messiah-ship.

There is a Dual Prophecy...One the was fulfilled during Isaiah's time - Isaiah 8:3 the Second being when "God with us" was born Matt 1 Luke 2

Why bring up Psalms 110 while your at it.....


>The teachings of Jesus were definitely a critique of modern
>Jewish practice.

Key term "practice"......and NOT of the OT...these traditions were being done/regulated outside of the OT Laws.

Jesus did not intend to create a new religion but
>bring new life into what was already founded.

Thanks for the info greg...Christianity is a JEWISH FAITH He didn't create a new religion...Just Revealed the missing pieces in the OT





Furthermore the account of the Holy Spirit visting
>the disciples on the Day of Pentecost(Shavuot) happened
>while they were celebrating a JEWISH holiday. Christians
>speak of the Day of Pentecost as though it is the title of a
>significant day in Christian history however the Day of
>Pentecost is and will always be a JEWISH event.

To OT/Christ Followers it was the start of the Church Body....for to those that Believe in both OT and that Jesus being the Messiah Prophcised in the OT...

>There is much more evidence I could contribute however I
>think it is important to see the foundation of Christianity
>(early Jesus Movement) as what it truly was. It was a
>critique of Judaism as practiced in Jerusalem.

Key word practiced....and Not a Critique of the OT itself