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Subject: "Cosby" This topic is locked.
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rogue_scholar
Member since Feb 14th 2003
7647 posts
Thu Jul-01-04 03:43 PM

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"Cosby"


  

          

.

**************
rS

--Any belief worth having must survive doubt--

----------------
rs

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
I'm with Cosby on some things
Jul 01st 2004
1
yeah i agree
Jul 02nd 2004
9
      and to add to that
Jul 02nd 2004
10
      This is my issue
Jul 02nd 2004
16
      RE: This is my issue
Jul 02nd 2004
54
      RE: and to add to that
Jul 30th 2004
157
      Hold on.
Jul 02nd 2004
27
           im sorry i just cant believe that
Jul 02nd 2004
35
                RE: im sorry i just cant believe that
Jul 02nd 2004
46
                     the goals have not been accomplished
Jul 07th 2004
103
As the ivyleaguenegro..........
Jul 01st 2004
2
oh this is going right in my sig...
Jul 01st 2004
3
jesse
Jul 02nd 2004
11
Cosby was 100% on point...
Jul 01st 2004
4
RE: Cosby was 100% on point...
Jul 02nd 2004
12
      RE: Cosby was 100% on point...
Jul 02nd 2004
13
      RE: Cosby was 100% on point...
ATLsSoulSista
Jul 09th 2004
138
CLOUT WITH OPPORTUNITY............
Jul 01st 2004
5
this is a lot better crafted than his last one
Jul 01st 2004
6
on my blog:
Jul 02nd 2004
7
The first one at Morehouse was the best. n/m
Jul 02nd 2004
8
I have to wonder about white folks
Jul 02nd 2004
14
RE: I have to wonder about white folks
Jul 02nd 2004
41
      yeah. pretty much.
Jul 02nd 2004
53
      the "white news" as you call it
Jul 07th 2004
105
      white girl here
Jul 21st 2004
147
Put his solution where his mouth is?
Jul 02nd 2004
15
CORRUPTION................
Jul 02nd 2004
19
I forgot to add HIV/AIDS
Jul 02nd 2004
20
      dont even get on AIDS
Jul 02nd 2004
23
           RE: dont even get on AIDS
Jul 02nd 2004
33
i disagree infinity percent
Jul 02nd 2004
22
      RE: i disagree infinity percent
Jul 02nd 2004
25
      WORD
Jul 02nd 2004
30
      Of course you do :-)
Jul 02nd 2004
29
      RE: Of course you do :-)
Jul 02nd 2004
36
           Ha!
Jul 02nd 2004
38
           RE: Of course you do :-)
Jul 28th 2004
149
      70'S
Jul 02nd 2004
45
      HOLY SHIT!!!
Jul 02nd 2004
55
      RE: HOLY SHIT!!!
Jul 02nd 2004
58
           *scratching head*
Jul 02nd 2004
63
                uhm... that was intended for suave_bro. sorry.
Jul 02nd 2004
68
      CO-SIGN WITH WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT THE MUSIC
Jul 09th 2004
140
hes comments are kinda funny
Jul 02nd 2004
17
Hip Hop
Jul 02nd 2004
18
Art is just a reflection
Jul 02nd 2004
21
Exactly
Jul 02nd 2004
24
Just look at the recording industry
Jul 02nd 2004
32
      See #31 n/m
Jul 02nd 2004
34
           please your #31 didnt answer shit
Jul 02nd 2004
37
           Please
Jul 02nd 2004
39
           You just laid out a decade of American history
Jul 02nd 2004
40
                Not American history
Jul 02nd 2004
42
                Hip Hop history is a segment in American history
Jul 02nd 2004
47
                     RE: Hip Hop history is a segment in American history
Jul 02nd 2004
80
                          Oh really
Jul 03rd 2004
89
                               I'm here for the dialogue
Jul 03rd 2004
91
                Trust me, Nettrice.
Jul 02nd 2004
43
RE: Hip Hop
Jul 02nd 2004
28
      Repeat: Hip-Hop Timeline
Jul 02nd 2004
31
      It's funny how you get pissed for no reason....
Jul 02nd 2004
44
           RE: It's funny how you get pissed for no reason....
Jul 02nd 2004
48
                I'm gonna stay calm
Jul 02nd 2004
49
                     One more thing...
Jul 02nd 2004
50
                          I think that the point Suave is making is that....
Jul 02nd 2004
52
                               RE: I think that the point Suave is making is that....
Jul 02nd 2004
56
                                    I read your posts...
Jul 02nd 2004
59
                                         This debate...
Jul 02nd 2004
60
                                              this is what pisses me off...
Jul 02nd 2004
64
                                                   I agree with this
Jul 02nd 2004
66
                                                   I completely agree
Jul 07th 2004
104
                                                        cant blame the industry
Jul 07th 2004
107
7-8 YEAR OLDS
Jul 02nd 2004
26
RE: Cosby
Jul 02nd 2004
51
All the noise generated by his comments
Jul 02nd 2004
57
If you're not with Bill then you're part of the problem
Jul 02nd 2004
61
Bill Cosby Still Bitching
Jul 02nd 2004
62
Why don't you and your negro friend build a school
Jul 02nd 2004
65
RESPONSE
Jul 02nd 2004
69
      Back At you X. As you avoid my question..
Jul 02nd 2004
82
why are u even still alive?
Jul 02nd 2004
67
blame the liberals/democrats
Jul 02nd 2004
70
      calm your fake bobby seale ass down.
Jul 02nd 2004
71
           Bizarro world Argument!!!
Jul 02nd 2004
72
           WHAT SOLUTION
Jul 02nd 2004
73
           this nigga
Jul 02nd 2004
75
                Cosign!
Jul 02nd 2004
84
                2 funny
Jul 02nd 2004
87
           SPEAKING OF CONSPIRACY THEORIES
Jul 02nd 2004
88
completely agree
Jul 07th 2004
106
no humility no solutions
Jul 02nd 2004
74
yall have GOT to shut the fuck up
Jul 02nd 2004
76
ok and what about the humility
Jul 02nd 2004
77
sugar coat it!?
Jul 02nd 2004
86
      RE: sugar coat it!?
Jul 03rd 2004
90
           u cant be serious with this bullshit...
Jul 03rd 2004
93
                dead serious
Jul 04th 2004
95
                RE: dead serious
Jul 04th 2004
97
                RE: u cant be serious with this bullshit...
Jul 04th 2004
98
suave bro...
Jul 02nd 2004
79
      your 5 dollar insults dont mean shit
Jul 02nd 2004
85
      I feel you
Jul 04th 2004
96
are you a slave or what?
Jul 07th 2004
112
RE: Cosby
the_therapist
Jul 02nd 2004
78
I agree with Bill 100%
Femi_Omojigijigiosetuatobalehinibode
Jul 02nd 2004
81
so do i.
Jul 03rd 2004
92
but when I hear about Cosby..
Jul 02nd 2004
83
What have McWhorter & Sowell done for Blacks?
Jul 05th 2004
99
      Whoa...
Jul 05th 2004
100
      no he doesn't.
Jul 07th 2004
110
           Umm...
Jul 07th 2004
111
           The Idealogue of Latter day conservative thought......
Jul 07th 2004
117
           You've got to be joking me.
Jul 08th 2004
124
                Modern - Day - Ideologue
Jul 08th 2004
128
                     but you're assuming...
Jul 09th 2004
132
                          Weak - At Best
Jul 09th 2004
135
                               ha.
Jul 10th 2004
143
                                    RE: ha.
Jul 10th 2004
144
           RE: Umm...
Jul 08th 2004
123
                You're missing my point...
Jul 08th 2004
125
                     No I didn't.
Jul 09th 2004
131
                          Oh brother....
Jul 09th 2004
139
                               Well said...
Jul 28th 2004
152
           Actually Expertise..........
Jul 07th 2004
115
                once again...
Jul 08th 2004
122
                     Please
Jul 08th 2004
129
                          RE: Please
Jul 09th 2004
133
                               *shakes head*
Jul 09th 2004
136
      What have you done?
Jul 07th 2004
109
           Please/Read My Sig File
Jul 07th 2004
116
                I didn't duck anything.
Jul 07th 2004
121
                     *Searches in Vain for a Cogent Statement*
Jul 08th 2004
127
                          You're not talking about context.
Jul 09th 2004
134
                               Weaker than before......
Jul 09th 2004
137
FUTURE IMPACT..............
Jul 03rd 2004
94
Cosbys needs to eat a puddin pop and shut the fuck up
Jul 05th 2004
101
RE: Cosby
JahBrown
Jul 06th 2004
102
the one thing I noticed about Bill's comments is
Jul 07th 2004
108
Well....
Jul 07th 2004
113
      RE: Well....
Jul 07th 2004
114
      RE: Well....
Jul 07th 2004
118
           RE: Well....
Jul 07th 2004
119
                Hey...
Jul 07th 2004
120
                     likewise my man
Jul 08th 2004
130
      great post, some comments
Jul 09th 2004
141
           Hello...
Jul 10th 2004
142
                point by point
Jul 11th 2004
146
                     Ummm
Jul 28th 2004
150
                          Some thoughts
Jul 29th 2004
153
                               RE: Some thoughts
Jul 29th 2004
154
                                    RE: Some thoughts
Jul 30th 2004
155
                                         RE: Some thoughts
Jul 30th 2004
156
                                              I certainly agree
Jul 30th 2004
158
                                                   RE: I certainly agree
Jul 30th 2004
159
                                                        You've dun it
Jul 31st 2004
160
RE: Cosby
Jul 08th 2004
126
RE: Cosby
Jul 10th 2004
145
Bill should
Jul 28th 2004
148
And I co-sign that..
Jul 28th 2004
151

Nettrice
Charter member
61747 posts
Thu Jul-01-04 03:54 PM

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1. "I'm with Cosby on some things"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I also think the Civil Rights Movement should have not ended in the 70s. A vacuum was created that got us to where we are now.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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yngblkprinceMD
Member since Mar 31st 2004
756 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 03:21 AM

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9. "yeah i agree"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

i recently got into to a big arguement with my mom after wacthing the recent tupac doc(i reccomend it to all) about how their generation really "dropped the ball" and got complacent and didnt carry on the momentum of the civil rights/black power era. There isn't any other time in american history when Blacks have been so mobilized and in such a large percentage...but after the "equality laws" were passed, MLK and Malcolm X were assasinated, and after the government dismantled the BPP it was like everyone else was just "ehh where done here, we did good enuff". it really fucked shyt up and we have been going backwards every since...she tried to say idealism and activism fades with age and responsibility but i mean there were like old ass ppl involved in the protest too so wtf? wtf happened?

SIG:

"Many of us have misconceptions about Black history in amerika. What we are taught in the public school system is usually innaccurate, distorted, and packed full of outright lies. Among the most common lies are that Lincoln freed the slaves, that

  

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yngblkprinceMD
Member since Mar 31st 2004
756 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 03:26 AM

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10. "and to add to that"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

i count cosby in that number of negros who dropped the ball because he's criticizing blacks NOW but i didnt here him saying all this when he was doing his show and exec producing different world and fat albert, these problamatic issues were around then too, why didnt he address them earlier instead of letting things continue u to deteriorate, isnt it a lil late to be grand standing now bill...

SIG:

"Many of us have misconceptions about Black history in amerika. What we are taught in the public school system is usually innaccurate, distorted, and packed full of outright lies. Among the most common lies are that Lincoln freed the slaves, that

  

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Nettrice
Charter member
61747 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 04:23 AM

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16. "This is my issue"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

>saying all this when he was doing his show and exec
>producing different world and fat albert, these problamatic
>issues

I think many Black folks were sleep walking through the 80s and 90s, esp. the old activists.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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rhulah
Charter member
4409 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 08:27 AM

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54. "RE: This is my issue"
In response to Reply # 16


          


Correct my sister...and that is why we need an AFRIKAN CENTERED/SANKOFA MOVEMENT that will combine all that we have learned from past movements!!





>>saying all this when he was doing his show and exec
>>producing different world and fat albert, these problamatic
>>issues
>
>I think many Black folks were sleep walking through the 80s
>and 90s, esp. the old activists.

  

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rhombus
Charter member
299 posts
Fri Jul-30-04 10:08 AM

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157. "RE: and to add to that"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

>i didnt here him saying all this when he was doing his show
>and exec producing different world and fat albert, these
>problamatic issues were around then too

In a way he did. He created a positive sitcom of educated and successful black people, with a complete and functional home. He showed a picture of what anyone can become, and I think it said a lot. The Cosby Show is still, to this day, proof that you don't have to portray black stereotypes to produce a successful show.

the sig: then again, what do I know? --rhombus

  

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ehjay
Member since Jun 09th 2003
735 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 05:44 AM

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27. "Hold on."
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

>she tried to say idealism and activism fades with
>age and responsibility but i mean there were like old ass
>ppl involved in the protest too so wtf? wtf happened?

Listen to your mother; there is something to what she is saying. She was there - it is easy for those of us who didn't make those struggles to criticize.


----------------------------------------------------------
what's the talk of the sophomore jinx?

  

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yngblkprinceMD
Member since Mar 31st 2004
756 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 06:05 AM

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35. "im sorry i just cant believe that"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

i love my mother to death and understand when u have kids u have to make sacrifices but u can still have the fervor and zeal for the better of our ppl as a whole and battle against this country's oppression and still be a good mom...

but one thing that was interesting about what pac said about afeni was that he felt like in his younger years she was more concerned with the struggle than with being a mom, he said something to that effect in the doc. so i guess

SIG:

"Many of us have misconceptions about Black history in amerika. What we are taught in the public school system is usually innaccurate, distorted, and packed full of outright lies. Among the most common lies are that Lincoln freed the slaves, that

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 06:43 AM

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46. "RE: im sorry i just cant believe that"
In response to Reply # 35


          

>i love my mother to death and understand when u have kids u
>have to make sacrifices but u can still have the fervor and
>zeal for the better of our ppl as a whole and battle against
>this country's oppression and still be a good mom...

- this is because rational people understand that you fight and fight and fight and you actually accomplish your goals you dont KEEP FIGHTING! and also, rational older black folks realize that yes racism is still alive but its not CRIPPLING to blacks in 2004. blah blah blah u negroes will give me that "well i see it everyday!" speech but show me where overall racism/oppression/external factors have a vast majority of black folks eating out of garbage cans...just last week there were 2 high speed chases involving young black makes for armed robbery, both of those "brothas" had nice cars with shining chrome rims on them...did "da system" stop them from getting those rims? obtaining guns? buying 200 dollar shoes?

>but one thing that was interesting about what pac said about
>afeni was that he felt like in his younger years she was
>more concerned with the struggle than with being a mom, he
>said something to that effect in the doc. so i guess

- uhmmm his mother was also a crack head.

  

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yngblkprinceMD
Member since Mar 31st 2004
756 posts
Wed Jul-07-04 03:47 AM

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103. "the goals have not been accomplished"
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

our ppl have not as a whole been uplifted, the majority of blacks are not even seeing close to the wealth/quality of life that whites enjoy, there is quite a great disparity between the number/percentage of poor blacks and poor whites. WHY is this? its certainly not because our people are in anyway inferior...why arent there white ghettos and projects in every city in america? all the problems we (blacks) face in this country stem from the great injustices that were done to our ancestors...injustices that still have not been properly corrected.

our ppl have a lot of problems and many of us have warped values but we werent born with these ideas, we were socialized to think this way by an oppressive system which today happens to be a lot less overt...but its still there.

i have no problem with the black middle class enjoying their wealth but i do have a BIG problem with ppl thinking they have "made it" and the "fight" is over when our brothers and sisters are starving, dont have adequate health care, and living in slums

the black middle class needs to get of that euro-influenced individualistic head trip where they distance themselves from the rest of the community...wether u or anyone else likes it we are still a marginalized ppl in this country and i dont see how ppl can overly enjoy their wealth when they know their ppl are starving elsewhere

i mean MLK jr was pretty well off, if he had just been on some i got mine, now u get urs then where would the civil rights movement have gone

to quote mos def "get urs first, then other niggas secondary, that type of illin that be filling up the cemetary" and thats so true, the disunity of the black community is what's really hindering progress now, and i personally feel that if the 60-70s era brothas and sisters had not become complacent we could have retained the great unity that we had in that period and things would have been a lot better now

SIG:

"Many of us have misconceptions about Black history in amerika. What we are taught in the public school system is usually innaccurate, distorted, and packed full of outright lies. Among the most common lies are that Lincoln freed the slaves, that

  

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IvyLeagueNegro
Member since Jul 20th 2003
1902 posts
Thu Jul-01-04 03:55 PM

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2. "As the ivyleaguenegro.........."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I have no choice but to agree with the coz.

****SIG!******
DO DA DAMN THING NUKKA! http://www.freephotoiPods.com/?r=13236380

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Thu Jul-01-04 04:14 PM

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3. "oh this is going right in my sig..."
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Jul-01-04 04:15 PM

          

"He also condemned black men who missed out on opportunities and are now angry about their lives.

"You've got to stop beating up your women because you can't find a job, because you didn't want to get an education and now you're (earning) minimum wage," Cosby said. "You should have thought more of yourself when you were in high school, when you had an opportunity."

anybody notice how fake ass jesse jackson tried to chime in with his 2 cents? that nigga been blaming whitey all the way to the bank for 3 decades now...

  

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arkitek
Charter member
573 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 03:40 AM

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11. "jesse"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          


>
>anybody notice how fake ass jesse jackson tried to chime in
>with his 2 cents? that nigga been blaming whitey all the way
>to the bank for 3 decades now...

i couldn't agree more....

shallow-deepness.....it is what it is

  

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G_Smooth
Member since Oct 07th 2003
4109 posts
Thu Jul-01-04 04:47 PM

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4. "Cosby was 100% on point..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

He was sick of tired of being sick and tired....Niggaz are quick to catch a feeling when ur critical of them..

  

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DarkBlu
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187 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 03:40 AM

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12. "RE: Cosby was 100% on point..."
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

He may be on point but he hasn't said anything profound. He hasn't said anything that we haven't reconginzed ourselves. Now that he has voiced his beefs with the community, what does he propose we should do to fix the problems ?

  

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docIllenstein
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891 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 03:47 AM

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13. "RE: Cosby was 100% on point..."
In response to Reply # 12


          

>He may be on point but he hasn't said anything profound. He
>hasn't said anything that we haven't reconginzed ourselves.
>Now that he has voiced his beefs with the community, what
>does he propose we should do to fix the problems ?


Well, he said something that wasn't being said on those 'rap CDs'

Sometimes folks don't really acknowledge what they were thinking until someone actually goes out and says it. Being that it's Cosby, who I find to be rather a unexpected voice after those Jell-o touchy-feely ads, and that he's an icon in so many black and white homes, I think it might turn on some lights.

  

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ATLsSoulSista

Fri Jul-09-04 06:28 AM

  
138. "RE: Cosby was 100% on point..."
In response to Reply # 12


          

>He may be on point but he hasn't said anything profound. He
>hasn't said anything that we haven't reconginzed ourselves.
>Now that he has voiced his beefs with the community, what
>does he propose we should do to fix the problems ?


we're good at complainin and findin the problems within our society and the world as a whole...but who has ne answers...thas where we come in.

i AM...

  

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Monique
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2511 posts
Thu Jul-01-04 06:15 PM

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5. "CLOUT WITH OPPORTUNITY............"
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Jul-01-04 06:23 PM

  

          

ABOUNDS FOR MR. COSBY.

and regarding the issue of what we hear in music.......
has he ever once gone to owners,executives in the industry....

and asked of them are you co-ercing the artist into what is coming out of your studio for a young generation to hear,mimic,act upon.

and if so,would you change the plan of action.

also,has he ever personally spoken to any of the artist as one music artist once did to a rapper.
there has been a slow change, but the person did listen i beleive.

allll my life i have heard about doing what the industry want for music artist and actors. sometimes others alledgedly choose to opt out and forego the big $$$.

ADVICE TO NEWCOMERS:
keep a regular job,just in case post signing the contract....
not understanding,or failing to read the finerrrr print and you find yourself stuck in a contract.....
doing as not expected ,you are willing to accept the consequences and just work a regular job and get the helll out of the industry.

and yes, i do beleive the artist throw in their own points as well for get in........
get out RICH, maybe WEALTHY like Bill Gates.
in the sense of how Chris Rock describes who is rich and who is wealthy.

BEFORE TODAY'S LANGUAGE IN MUSIC:
i grew up on the words my wonderful,righteous, loving,doting,caring grandmother and other family members used.
but, we knew it was "grown folk" words and not to use them, well, i guess until we were grown and angry like they were at the time.

SEXUAL HEALING---MARVIN GAYE:
man during cosby's era.
i said how can he be saying that in his music.
yet, hailed as one of the greatest.
to me, no different than today's music. sex is sex!

oldest son---olde school hip-hop. had he been able to see BET the other nite he would be most happy.
even tho he is very much into the gospel, he would have been proud.

youngest son---new age, oldee school hip-hop, moving into the blues.
the blues, ahhhh--"HOOCHIE COOCHIE MAN"--Muddy Waters and wellll loved.
hmm, today they just say "COOCHIE".

CANDY LICKER:
oh well!

defending, liking what i hear. yes and yes(but not everything).

I AM DEFENDING THE HOW DID THEY GET TO THIS POINT.
right now, i have a topic that has an intimate language direction and i love to recreate stories about romance, sensuality and i hate having to be censured for it takes away from the feelings in what i write,conveying what someone else MIGHT can use.
but, got to make it CHILDREN friendly.

I GOT TO MY POINT OF WRITINGS THRU PERSONAL EXPERIENCE IN ACTION,OR SURROUNDINGS.

anddddd i had to tame my writings.
anddddd this is what i so wait on others to do as they hopefully grow.

but, i also know,or know of via what insiders in the industry spew to us and i wait.

music artist--video ladies--actors, many coming off the street in a desparate attempt to yes make easy money, so they think.
some finished high school,even worked, and then the fast life.now, caught up in an even GRANDER scheme of staying on top.
they could at some point get out,but......

also,i still say many who buy the albums,or whatever are underestimated. quite often it's fadish.

THUG SONGS:
singing what they experience and more graphic.
singing in part no different from those b4 them, just not wriiten so radio,tv friendly until the children have to wait until they are "GROWN FOLK" to understand.


TURN OFF THE TV. TURN OFF THE RADIO.
and in my lifetime, b4 rap--today's lyrics........
I SAW, HEARD !!! muchhhhhh. B4 MOVING INTO THE SUBURBS.
NOW BACK IN URBANNN USA !

YES !
THERE IS ALWAYS SELF RESPONSIBILITY.
BUT, WHO CAME B4 EACH GENERATION?

EACH GENERATION SAYS OH NO, I AM GONNA DO IT DIFFERENT.

FROM THE OWNERS---EXECUTIVES TRYING TO KEEP THEIR JOB.....DOWN THE LINE.

AMAZING GRACE:
my favorite church song.
Yes!
i know the slave trader John Newton wrote it, alledgedly had some regrets for what he was doing, but continued.

i shall continue to sing the song because like many songs i sing, others do not apprciate by our own, ising them because i find something in it for me.

NOW.
hmmm, they song it(amazing grace) as they hung them....however mr. cosby stated, but how many of them who enjoy him stretch his eyes on stage/tv, may have participated and repented.

i support some artist and do not like their ideaologies, but they also speak a common goal.
all knowing i am supporting their ideaology(which they can get out without my money), but i am supporting their common goal...
EDUCATION(their children)--DECENT HOUSING---...................

i get something in return......whatever it is they created i like and cannnn use if i desire in some form.
UP TO ME TO GET MY OWN !

but, if on some conscious ishhh and do a backward flip, i may be requesting a ......!

MY CONSCIOUS SONGS ANTHEMS:

WHAT'S GOING ON---MARVIN GAYE."what's going on". THE DEVIL'S PIE---D'ANGELO.

KICK THE SYSTEM IN THE NUTS AND VAGINA... AND AS ONE PERSON STATED--"WORK IT FROM WITHIN".


See/Hear D'ANGELO @ www.dangelosangels.com . MISS NO PAGES.



***********************************************************
NELLY: I'm Humble In Life Taking Nothing For Granted

AFRICA: www.bbcnews.com

THE BROKER: John Grisham

  

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k_orr
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Thu Jul-01-04 06:32 PM

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6. "this is a lot better crafted than his last one"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

The same criticisms remain however.

But since this is a Cosby love fest, I'll bow out.

one
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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Expertise
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Fri Jul-02-04 12:07 AM

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7. "on my blog:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://expertise.blogdrive.com/archive/36.html
__________________________
My politics and sports blog .

<----this is what I wanna do to some of you niggas.

_________________________
http://expertise.blogdrive.com
http://twitter.com/KMBReferee
http://www.ask.fm/KMBReferee

  

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FireBrand
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145739 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 01:46 AM

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8. "The first one at Morehouse was the best. n/m"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Avi? Go on head now Mr. Cosby...






___________________________

Inaugral Member of the OkaySports Hall of Fame
(They just don't allow me to speak on Roundball no mo')

"The events which transpired five thousand years ago; Five years ago or five minutes ago, have determined what will happen five minutes from now; five years From now or five thousand years from now. All history is a current event.
Dr. John Henrik Clarke

Everything that touches your life must be an instrument of your liberation, or you must throw it into the trash can of history.
John Henrik Clarke






If something is yours by right, then fight for it or shut up. If you can't fight for it, then forget it.
Malcolm X
London School of Economics, February, 1965


"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a blackóat least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

  

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docIllenstein
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891 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 03:50 AM

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14. "I have to wonder about white folks"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Seeing that Cosby was in so many white homes during his reign on family-time TV, how do you think those twentysomethings and thirtysomethings that grew up on Cosby are going to look at him?

Is he getting bitter and senile or is he just fed up with the way things are going? Is he becoming another "angry black man"?

It seems that the news stories I've seen are along the lines of 'Oh man, Bill, what have you done'?

  

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AnjoCelestial
Member since Feb 14th 2003
14 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 06:30 AM

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41. "RE: I have to wonder about white folks"
In response to Reply # 14


          

I could be wrong as I often am, but I doubt that he seeks the approval of white america. Whether they think he is bitter or senile is of no consequence to him because ultimately, he feels these are issues that can only be addressed and changed by black americans.We have the power to change our value systems, they do not. As Cosby said, "let them talk" but their opinons will carry very little weight.



"we are apples, and we are oranges, but in the end, we are all fruit"

  

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docIllenstein
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Fri Jul-02-04 08:14 AM

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53. "yeah. pretty much."
In response to Reply # 41


          

Though it seems all over the white news like 'our nigger gone crazy!'

  

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Jon
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Wed Jul-07-04 04:23 AM

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105. "the "white news" as you call it"
In response to Reply # 53


          

does not reflect the views and opinions of "white people"

  

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lindsayjo
Member since Jun 05th 2002
16 posts
Wed Jul-21-04 03:59 PM

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147. "white girl here"
In response to Reply # 41


          

I think that Bill is just tired of what he sees happening in black communites across the country. He got his opinion out, and now, maybe things will start to change. I certainly don't see him as the "angry black man," I just see him as someone who just got fed up with the way things are.

  

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Nettrice
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Fri Jul-02-04 04:21 AM

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15. "Put his solution where his mouth is?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I once told a mentor, a man who was a well known local civil rights activist back in the day, that I was dissapointed that people just gave up in the 70s. Folks got money (and government jobs) and they thought that was all she wrote. What those few left behind was thousands of Black people on the other side of a divide. Within a generation we had (more of):

- poverty
- crack/cocaine
- gang violence
- prison
- teen pregnancy
- racial profiling

Government intervention only seemed to make things worse and mass consumerism was escalating in Black communities (bling, bling). Where was Cosby and his folks then? If not in the streets then where? The middle class was disappearing by then end of the 90s and the divides were widening as well, with no apparent solutions for what was happening to Black youth. Can't blame the music.

In the early years, hip-hip had positive messages. People were either dancing (Kid n Play) or rebelling (Public Enemy), so they industry took over and coopted everything that was hip-hop. They made it more suitable to the masses. Art is a reflection of where people are at any given time and this includes music.

Where was Bill C. and Jesse J. then?

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Monique
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Fri Jul-02-04 04:47 AM

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19. "CORRUPTION................"
In response to Reply # 15
Fri Jul-02-04 04:49 AM

  

          

AIDES AND ABET THE FOLLOWING FOR THE WEAK AND EVEN THE STRONG.
ONE,OR MORE???

THERE HAVE BEEN OTHER MOVIES, BUT, "TRAINING DAY" IS NOT JUST A MOVIE. VERY WELL DONE BY MR. WASHINGTON.

NO PROTECTION. WOULD THE CRIME BE STOPPED???

>- poverty
>- crack/cocaine
>- gang violence
>- prison
>- teen pregnancy
>- racial profiling
>
>Government intervention only seemed to make things worse and
>mass consumerism was escalating in Black communities (bling,
>bling). Where was Cosby and his folks then? If not in the
>streets then where? The middle class was disappearing by
>then end of the 90s and the divides were widening as well,
>with no apparent solutions for what was happening to Black
>youth. Can't blame the music.
>

READ BIOGRAPHIES, OR SNIPET GOSSIP ON MANY OF THE AFFLUENT.

AND HOW MANY WILL WE DISCOVER FELL PREY TO WHAT TODAy"S YOUTH ENCOUNTER, JUST BOLDER !

where were many of them.somewhere HIGh as mucker*ukers!!!
some of the well educated, best and brightest! and losing riches,or middle incomes.....................

to "SUPERFLY"..........

ghettos have corner vendors awaiting the "RICH & FAMOUS.
how many in what way took out many during cosby's time.

now their. children,or grandchildren perpetuate the continued CORRUPTION imposed.

B4 today's music review movies. what were the excuses.
let's see.....

"STUDIO(or CLUB) 54". LOOK AT THE GUEST LIST.

AND MORE.....???? BUT THE ABOVE IS A GOOD INDICATOR.

See/Hear D'ANGELO @ www.dangelosangels.com . MISS NO PAGES.




***********************************************************
NELLY: I'm Humble In Life Taking Nothing For Granted

AFRICA: www.bbcnews.com

THE BROKER: John Grisham

  

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Nettrice
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Fri Jul-02-04 04:53 AM

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20. "I forgot to add HIV/AIDS"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

Thanks

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 05:12 AM

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23. "dont even get on AIDS"
In response to Reply # 20


          

ever notice that "aids activists" talk about AIDS in a general broad sense all the time? "we need funding for research!! we need more hospitals!! we need more concern!!"

but why arent folks talking about the causes of aids? why arent people being REAL about the behaviors that bring about HIV/AIDS? did you all know that everybody isnt at risk for catching AIDS/HIV, why dont we talk about this? why dont medical experts tell the youth this? this is why that brilliant article in last months EBONY magazine that wasnt nice, pretty, cute, and didnt tapdance around the issue of HIV amongst black women has gotten 0 posts on these boards.

  

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Nettrice
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Fri Jul-02-04 06:03 AM

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33. "RE: dont even get on AIDS"
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

>did you all know that everybody isnt at risk for
>catching AIDS/HIV, why dont we talk about this?

Everyone who has unprotected casual sex is at risk.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 05:06 AM

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22. "i disagree infinity percent"
In response to Reply # 15
Fri Jul-02-04 05:16 AM

          

>I once told a mentor, a man who was a well known local civil
>rights activist back in the day, that I was dissapointed
>that people just gave up in the 70s. Folks got money (and
>government jobs) and they thought that was all she wrote.

-well first of all i dont know if in the 70's there was this explosion of "rich" black folks, if im not mistaken this was the era of the projects, crack cocaine, and welfare...so if you could elaborate on these invisible black millionaires that came out of the 70's, id appreciate it. secondly, what was the point of the civil rights movement? to just march and protest and preach forever? at what point do black folks enjoy the fruits of their labor? my father still remembers "colored only" signs growing up, he was in alabama during the civil rights movement...thats pretty fucking arrogant to look at a generation that experienced those types of things and say they failed us. with all my father went through with crooked ass alabama white racists, he has earned the right to live in a big ass house with his wife and kids and kick back and relax...now its up to me to do better than him and so forth and so forth...if that isnt what the civil rights movement was about i dont know what is...

>What those few left behind was thousands of Black people on
>the other side of a divide. Within a generation we had
>(more of):
>
>- poverty
>- crack/cocaine
>- gang violence
>- prison
>- teen pregnancy
>- racial profiling

>Government intervention only seemed to make things worse and
>mass consumerism was escalating in Black communities (bling,
>bling). Where was Cosby and his folks then? If not in the
>streets then where?

- are you forgetting the congressional black caucus? the NAACP? julian bond? jesse jackson? al sharpton? the nation of islam? I could go on and on naming the folks who critisized "the system" but guess what, THOSE FOLKS ARE RICH!! there is $$$$ in arguing about what u want to argue about but there is NONE in being critical of OURSELVES. and to this day it is amazing to me how we REFUSE to talk about the lack of fathers in our community, why? because there is no direct link to "da white man"...

>The middle class was disappearing by
>then end of the 90s and the divides were widening as well,
>with no apparent solutions for what was happening to Black
>youth. Can't blame the music.

-where is your proof? if im not mistaken, the national black income has been around 600 billion dollars plus annually for about 7 or 8 years. in fact, 2 parent black homes earn an average of 41K a year whereas the average white family earns 46K...you willing to grab your guns and march up and down the street for 5K dollars? you gonna blame the white man for our communities low marriage rates? sure things will probably NEVER be 100% equal, but i do believe we exaggerate our conditions to garner sympathy for our causes and as we all know, sympathy=free $$$...


>In the early years, hip-hip had positive messages. People
>were either dancing (Kid n Play) or rebelling (Public
>Enemy), so they industry took over and coopted everything
>that was hip-hop. They made it more suitable to the masses.
> Art is a reflection of where people are at any given time
>and this includes music.

-I disagree again. what country are u living in!? hip hop was also thugged out and mysoginistic (NWA), and what happened was black folks gravitated towards that around the late 90's it wasnt the INDUSTRY, the industry went to what was popular and has BEEN popular ever since, that isnt racism or apathy, THATS BUSINESS!!...look at how quickly will smith, heavy d, chubb rock, queen latifah, mc lyte and all the REAL hip hop artists faded away in the late 90's...thats because the thug/gangster tupac, biggie, master p's were taking over this is what the masses liked and the industry just followed suit...its past time we started puting heat on these LACKLUSTER PARENTS and DEAD BEAT BABY DADDIES, these RAP ARTISTS, and THE CONSUMERS (everyday complacent black folks)...whats the next step? are you going to go after employees at FYE and circuit city for handing these CD's out over the counter?



  

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DarkBlu
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Fri Jul-02-04 05:27 AM

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25. "RE: i disagree infinity percent"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

I definitely have to agree with you on this point

>>>>>secondly, what was the point of the civil rights movement? to just march and protest and preach forever? at what point do black folks enjoy the fruits of their labor? my father still remembers "colored only" signs growing up, he was in alabama during the civil rights movement...thats pretty fucking arrogant to look at a generation that experienced those types of things and say they failed us.


I don't want to dismiss the great accomplishments of the civil rights movement, it was very necessary and it brought us opportunites that weren't available to us prior to it. But we have to move forward. Essentially the civil rights movement was a period of time when we begged and fought "the man" to grant us rights.

We need to move on to the second phase of the movement where we do for ourselves.

  

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ehjay
Member since Jun 09th 2003
735 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 05:54 AM

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30. "WORD"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          


>secondly, what was the point of the civil rights movement? to >just march and protest and preach forever? at what point do >black folks enjoy the fruits of their labor? my father still >remembers "colored only" signs growing up, he was in alabama >during the civil rights movement...thats pretty fucking >arrogant to look at a generation that experienced those types >of things and say they failed us.

You said it. Look, the generations before us fought a war. It embarrasses me to hear their college-educated children, my peers, sigh 'what have you done for me lately'. Just so shortsighted..

At some point we need to enact change ourselves.

----------------------------------------------------------
what's the talk of the sophomore jinx?

  

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Nettrice
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29. "Of course you do :-)"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

>-well first of all i dont know if in the 70's there was this
>explosion of "rich" black folks

Many of the "activists" and civil rights folks from the 70s did quite well in the 80s, including Cosby and Jackson. The former has a successful career that spans a few decades. Last month, I was chatting briefly with an actor who was in a popular TV show in the 70s and 80s. This guy was white and told me that most folks that were doing well in TV land were also in la-la land as far as what was happening in the streets.

>if im not mistaken this was
>the era of the projects, crack cocaine, and welfare...

Crack was in the 80s. Projects and welfare but I was in the projects in the 70s and it was quite different back then.

>so if
>you could elaborate on these invisible black millionaires
>that came out of the 70's, id appreciate it.

Millionaires? Read my message, again.

>secondly, what
>was the point of the civil rights movement? to just march
>and protest and preach forever? at what point do black folks
>enjoy the fruits of their labor?

Equality and justice for all.

>my father still remembers
>"colored only" signs growing up

Both my parents experienced Jim Crow in the south. Actually, it was my father who taught me what he thought I needed to know about activists in the 70s and 80s. I took it with a grain of salt but I remember he was none too happy about it.

>- are you forgetting the congressional black caucus? the
>NAACP? julian bond? jesse jackson? al sharpton? the nation
>of islam? I could go on and on naming the folks who
>critisized "the system" but guess what, THOSE FOLKS ARE
>RICH!!

This only supports what I stated.

>-where is your proof? if im not mistaken, the national black
>income has been around 600 billion dollars plus annually for
>about 7 or 8 years. in fact, 2 parent black homes earn an
>average of 41K a year whereas the average white family earns
>46K...

What's the cost of living and how many single parent incomes fit into your equation?

>-I disagree again. what country are u living in!? hip hop
>was also thugged out and mysoginistic (NWA)

Public Enemy came before NWA.

Let me give you a real timeline:

1979 - Rapper's Delight hit the airwaves, bringing rap music to the mainstream. Others followed suite: Grandmaster Flash, LL Cool J, Run DMC, Fat Boys, Dougie Fresh, Slick Rick, etc. Hip-hop became the party music of the 80s until Public Enemy in the late 80s.

1981-1989 - Ronald Reagan was president. Reaganomics reduced the growth of government spending, reduced the marginal tax rates on income from both labor and capital, reduced regulation, and reduced inflation by controlling the growth of the money supply. Yet, spending was at a higher point than any time in recent history. What were so many people spending money on?

1985 - Cocaine was the drug of choice. The increase in demand led to a drop in price. This led to the development of 'crack cocaine', a cheap mix of cocaine and baking powder (sodium bicarbonate) which, when smoked, gives an intense, short-lived but compelling hit. As a result, crack cocaine flooded into US cities and crippled urban - often black - communities.

Cocaine use hit its peak in the US in 1985 with over 5.7 million users (nearly 3% of the population) using cocaine at least "once every month". It was popular at parties and with folks in music and entertainment. It was big business, supply and demand. Who was selling it?

Late 80s - Gangsta Rap hit the airwaves. Gangsta rap focused on the violence and misogyny inherent in the gangster lifestyle, this lifestlye was often centered around drug selling, esp. cocaine and crack. Gangsta rappers, on the tail of party and rebel rap music, expressed the reality of inner-city ghetto life. The audience for gangsta rap has become overwhelmingly white...this was the music of the late 80s and early 90s, until the "bling, bling" era.

So, we got the birth of mainstream hip-hop, crack, Reaganomics, and gangsta rap all in the same decade? Coincidence? I don't think so.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 06:06 AM

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36. "RE: Of course you do :-)"
In response to Reply # 29


          

>Many of the "activists" and civil rights folks from the 70s
>did quite well in the 80s, including Cosby and Jackson. The
>former has a successful career that spans a few decades.
>Last month, I was chatting briefly with an actor who was in
>a popular TV show in the 70s and 80s. This guy was white
>and told me that most folks that were doing well in TV land
>were also in la-la land as far as what was happening in the
>streets.

-well i didnt know you were formulating your argument around black ACTORS. i thought u were talking about just everyday black folks...with that said, i dont think there was a large population of black folks in the 70's who just got their money and ran...if u have proof of this id like to see it.

>>if im not mistaken this was
>>the era of the projects, crack cocaine, and welfare...
>
>Crack was in the 80s. Projects and welfare but I was in the
>projects in the 70s and it was quite different back then.

-crack cocaine was introduced into our communities in the mid to late 70's. true enough during the 80's it exploded but to pretend there was NO drugs to suit your argument? cmon now. and yes the welfare system was not different back then it was WORSE!


>>so if
>>you could elaborate on these invisible black millionaires
>>that came out of the 70's, id appreciate it.
>
>Millionaires? Read my message, again.

-surely blacks in the 70's didnt just up and leave the community as thousandaires. if so, that makes your argument sound less true to begin with.


>>secondly, what
>>was the point of the civil rights movement? to just march
>>and protest and preach forever? at what point do black folks
>>enjoy the fruits of their labor?
>
>Equality and justice for all.

-well you just proved my point. for a black man to be doing what im doing with little to no hassle at all from "da man", was almost unheard of during the civil rights movement.


>>my father still remembers
>>"colored only" signs growing up
>
>Both my parents experienced Jim Crow in the south.
>Actually, it was my father who taught me what he thought I
>needed to know about activists in the 70s and 80s. I took
>it with a grain of salt but I remember he was none too happy
>about it.

-well i didnt mean for you to give us (yet another) chapter from your overexaggerated life story. I was simply using somebody who lived in my own house as an example how how rediculous your argument of "they failed us" was...in fact, do you tell your father to his face that he failed his community?


>>- are you forgetting the congressional black caucus? the
>>NAACP? julian bond? jesse jackson? al sharpton? the nation
>>of islam? I could go on and on naming the folks who
>>critisized "the system" but guess what, THOSE FOLKS ARE
>>RICH!!
>
>This only supports what I stated.

- not necessarily. you were arguing that "mr cosby" should focus his attention on the system but why should he? look at all those millionaires who get fat pay checks from democrats for critisizing the "system"...bill cosby is already rich so his motives are a little more genuine in that aspect...


>What's the cost of living and how many single parent incomes
>fit into your equation?

- cost of living is irrelevant. if a white 2 parent home is making 46K living in new york they wont be living THAT much better than the black one earning 41K a year...single parent homes dont fit in2 the equation at all. but that is how we do it, we will look at a 2 parent white family and say "daze rich", all the while we screw like jack rabbits and make baby after baby after baby and wont even be MARRIED. its a wise economic decision to have a duel income household. but that is another topic altogether....


>>-I disagree again. what country are u living in!? hip hop
>>was also thugged out and mysoginistic (NWA)

>Public Enemy came before NWA.

-really? i thought they both released their fist albums in 1987!? and no i didnt need a history of hip hop from you. seriously.

  

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Nettrice
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Fri Jul-02-04 06:14 AM

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38. "Ha!"
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

>-really? i thought they both released their fist albums in
>1987!? and no i didnt need a history of hip hop from you.
>seriously.

Whatever.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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JSYM7
Member since Jul 31st 2003
219 posts
Wed Jul-28-04 04:02 AM

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149. "RE: Of course you do :-)"
In response to Reply # 36


          

Hey sauve Bro and everyone on this board what do you do to further the movement of your people. It is easy to atttack the problems because they are many but what are the solutions and what can each individaul do and what are you gonna do.

  

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Monique
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2511 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 06:42 AM

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45. "70'S"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

THE 70'S.

WAS BY THE STANDARDS FROM WHERE BLACKS EXITED INTO MAKING THE DREAM OF A BETTER LIFE COME TRUE WAS A GOOD TIME.

JIM CROW
THE SEQUEL
By June Jordan
R.I.P.--Former Teacher At The University At Berkeley

ESSENCE MAGAZINE--September 1995

"An Angry Black woman on the suject of the angry WHITE man"

"JUSTICE DON'T MEAN NOTHING TO A HATEFUL HEART" !

"we needed a way around the hateful heart of america..."
"we needed more than freedom because a piece of paper ain' the same as opportunity and education".
"and so thirty years ago we agitated and we agitated until the president said,
"we seek....not just equality, as a right and a theory, but equality as a fact and as a result."

"and a great rejoicing rose like a spirit dancing
fresh and happy on the soon-to-be- integrated-and-most-uppity ballroom floor of these United States...
And black folks everywhere dressed up in African Pride and optimism......
and got ready for "equality as a fact". But
three decades later, and come to find out
we never got invited to the party
we never got included in "the people"
we never got no kind of affirmative action worth more than a spit in the wind
and yesterday the new man in the White House/the new President declared, "What we have done for women and minorities is a good thing, but we must respond to those who feel discriminated against.....This is a psychologically difficult time for the so-called angry White man".

"CATCH that angry White man and tell him "Get a grip" !

not all, but wayyyyyyy too many are stll angry.

in part, they were angry as they saw jobs going to blacks.
jobs they did not want, or ever expect them to have.

PEOPLE LIKE MR. COSBY(who i do have admiration)AND OTHERS ARE NO DIFFERENT FROM ME AND YOU TO THE REMAINING "ANGRY WHITE MEN".

oh, in their smoked filled back rooms today they are probably updated using "dap", not handshakes, saying that boy sho do us proud!
yeahh, he sho told the "....ers" off.and we sho thank those other ones on message boards and other places,
those"....graz" who do the same everyday, telling them other "....raz's off".

THEY LOVE THIS TYPE(the negative aspect) ALMOST MORE THAN THE ARTIST WHO FEED THEIR PORTFOLIO'S.

See/Hear D'ANGELO @ www.dangelosangels.com . MISS NO PAGES.





***********************************************************
NELLY: I'm Humble In Life Taking Nothing For Granted

AFRICA: www.bbcnews.com

THE BROKER: John Grisham

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
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Fri Jul-02-04 09:01 AM

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55. "HOLY SHIT!!!"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

That was the most coherent counterpoint I've seen you launch in a MINUTE.

What the FUCK?! Have you been watching Crossfire?!

I mean, this whole argument isn't my business as far as agreeing or disagreeing, but nice argument. Damn... it's cold in here... hell just froze over...

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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Monique
Charter member
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Fri Jul-02-04 09:49 AM

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58. "RE: HOLY SHIT!!!"
In response to Reply # 55
Fri Jul-02-04 10:02 AM

  

          

>That was the most coherent counterpoint I've seen you launch
>in a MINUTE.

YEAHH FOR ME !

>
>What the FUCK?! Have you been watching Crossfire?!

NOPE ! NOT THIS TIME ! WATCH WHEN NOVAK IS OFF ! ? TUCKER...BEEN SO LONG DO NOT KNOW IF HE IS STILL ON. SAW HIM SOMEWHERE(?).

JUST AN ARTICLE I KEPT AS I WAS ATTEMPTING TO WRITE A BOOK THAT SOMEONE IS WAITING ON.

AND AFTER LURKING IN HERE I DISCOVERED MY THOUGHTS TO BE TRUE.

EXCERPT:

AND THEY WERE GOING ABOUT THEIR DAY......AND BY THE YEAR......IN......WILL THE DESCENDANTS..........

Below Gives Me An Even Closer Idea On My Thoughts. Plus Other Articles Posted In Here, Personal Stories.

CBSNEWS: AMERICA'S FACE IS CHANGING: MARCH 18, 2004 06:56:02

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/17/national/main607022.shtml

>
>I mean, this whole argument isn't my business as far as
>agreeing or disagreeing, but nice argument. Damn... it's
>cold in here... hell just froze over...

NOW:
WARM UP.....

SEE/HEAR D'ANGELO @ www.dangelosangels.com . MISS NO PAGES.

***********************************************************
NELLY: I'm Humble In Life Taking Nothing For Granted

AFRICA: www.bbcnews.com

THE BROKER: John Grisham

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 10:23 AM

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63. "*scratching head*"
In response to Reply # 58


          


  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
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Fri Jul-02-04 10:45 AM

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68. "uhm... that was intended for suave_bro. sorry."
In response to Reply # 63


  

          

Monique, uh... uhm.... you're nice too?

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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MANHOODLUM
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140. "CO-SIGN WITH WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT THE MUSIC"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

It's the same industry that signed the "Fight The Power" m.c.'s in the late 80's.

If skirts made money, the industry would sign them. They go where the money is.

Avatar?
E-Boogs and Nayi

MANHOODLUM
Most sig'd okp.
No Aliases.

MANHOODLUM via Twitter
MANHOODLUM@live.com
MANHOODLUM@yahoo.com
Tommy Moran @ Facebook
MANHOODLUM@tmo.blackberry.net

  

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yngblkprinceMD
Member since Mar 31st 2004
756 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 04:36 AM

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17. "hes comments are kinda funny"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

but they do have A LOT of validity...

SIG:

"Many of us have misconceptions about Black history in amerika. What we are taught in the public school system is usually innaccurate, distorted, and packed full of outright lies. Among the most common lies are that Lincoln freed the slaves, that

  

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WhiteSoulVKF
Member since Jan 28th 2004
517 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 04:47 AM

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18. "Hip Hop"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Jul-02-04 05:21 AM

  

          

I don't like the fact that Cos and some of the people on this post blame hip hop in general for what is going on the community. Hip Hop can be such a positive influence. Sometimes it reflects life in a way that portrays it in a suspect manner, but I think it seldom changes it for the worse. You can disagree if you want. I just don't think that the elimination of hip hop is an answer for black leadership, which is a role that I think Cosby may be trying to take on. All speaking out against hip hop will do is alienate one from a large part of the black community.

  

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Nettrice
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Fri Jul-02-04 04:55 AM

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21. "Art is just a reflection"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

People need to express themselves and what they are expressing reflects depper issues that need to be dealt with.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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WhiteSoulVKF
Member since Jan 28th 2004
517 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 05:19 AM

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24. "Exactly"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

What I was trying to say but couldn't get out...thanks!

  

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ehjay
Member since Jun 09th 2003
735 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 06:02 AM

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32. "Just look at the recording industry"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

>People need to express themselves and what they are
>expressing reflects depper issues that need to be dealt
>with.

That is definitely true - that is the essence of self expression. But that is simplistic explaination of what is going on with rap records. Why do you think so many interchangeable artists are in the marketplace, on the radio? It is cultivated by the record industry - a myth of black gansterism, prositution, and guns. All for sale to the mostly white masses.

Positive expression doesn't sell - it's not "hip hop" to the record execs.

----------------------------------------------------------
what's the talk of the sophomore jinx?

  

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Nettrice
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34. "See #31 n/m"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 06:13 AM

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37. "please your #31 didnt answer shit"
In response to Reply # 34


          

white people are paying top dollar to listen and watch us act like clowns and we couldnt be happier. this aint the hip hop i grew up on...

I think you folks are getting confused. to my knowledge NOBODY (not even mr cosby) has said that HIP HOP invented anything so stop jumping the gun and getting defensive...hip hop PERPETUATES ignorance and stagnation...TI saying "who im illz" is a far cry from KRS1 standing in front of a blackboard saying YOU MUST LEARN...

  

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Nettrice
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Fri Jul-02-04 06:16 AM

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39. "Please"
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

>white people are paying top dollar to listen and watch us
>act like clowns and we couldnt be happier. this aint the hip
>hop i grew up on...

Isn't it? A bunch of "negroes" dancing and smiling on stage.

Art is art isn't it?

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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ehjay
Member since Jun 09th 2003
735 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 06:20 AM

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40. "You just laid out a decade of American history"
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

Picked out a few facts relevant to your point of view and called it that a convincing argument. Understand that not as simple as that. Coincidence? Yeah, very well could be - that was no history lesson, please...

I understand what you are getting at - and there is definitely truth in it. But the rise of gangsta rap was also a musical trend, like any trend in popular music.

Consider this: if black gangsterism in music is The Truth - the real story of the modern black experience - why is the audience vastly white?


----------------------------------------------------------
what's the talk of the sophomore jinx?

  

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Nettrice
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Fri Jul-02-04 06:31 AM

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42. "Not American history"
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

Hip-hop history (i.e. 80s) and the politics and economics behind it. Thus, my timeline addresses some of the issues as far as what has happened to many young people who live inside the idiot boxes/radios all day and every day.

>Picked out a few facts relevant to your point of view and
>called it that a convincing argument.

You said this, not me.

>I understand what you are getting at - and there is
>definitely truth in it. But the rise of gangsta rap was
>also a musical trend, like any trend in popular music.

Man, everything is connected IMHO.

>Consider this: if black gangsterism in music is The Truth -
>the real story of the modern black experience - why is the
>audience vastly white?

Same thing happened with Little Richard and rock n roll.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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ehjay
Member since Jun 09th 2003
735 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 06:51 AM

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47. "Hip Hop history is a segment in American history"
In response to Reply # 42
Fri Jul-02-04 07:00 AM

  

          

When you start discussing politics and economics, I call that American history
>
>>Picked out a few facts relevant to your point of view and
>>called it that a convincing argument.
>
>You said this, not me.

Good one - I try to discuss the subject in earnest. you resort to playground tactics. Guess I am wasting my time.

>>I understand what you are getting at - and there is
>>definitely truth in it. But the rise of gangsta rap was
>>also a musical trend, like any trend in popular music.
>
>Man, everything is connected IMHO.

Does that mean you hear what I am saying? What are you saying? If everything is connected, then my argument is at least half right in your view.

>>Consider this: if black gangsterism in music is The Truth -
>>the real story of the modern black experience - why is the
>>audience vastly white?
>
>Same thing happened with Little Richard and rock n roll.

A great example, thank you. Little Richard set off one of the most important musical trends in modern history and the record labels ran with it.

Little Richard works for both us. What is your argument? You know mine.

----------------------------------------------------------
what's the talk of the sophomore jinx?

  

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Nettrice
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Fri Jul-02-04 02:28 PM

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80. "RE: Hip Hop history is a segment in American history"
In response to Reply # 47
Fri Jul-02-04 02:28 PM

  

          

>When you start discussing politics and economics, I call
>that American history

But I am talking about the politics and economics of mainstream hip-hop culture. This is intentionally a focused p.o.v. Calling it American is too broad and dilutes the issue.

>Good one - I try to discuss the subject in earnest. you
>resort to playground tactics. Guess I am wasting my time.

You are if you think I am here to debate.

>>Man, everything is connected IMHO.
>
>Does that mean you hear what I am saying? What are you
>saying? If everything is connected, then my argument is at
>least half right in your view.

Sure but see above.

>A great example, thank you. Little Richard set off one of
>the most important musical trends in modern history and the
>record labels ran with it.
>
>Little Richard works for both us. What is your argument?
>You know mine.

Specifically, the impact of rock n roll on the consciousness of mainstream America...it was as politically and economically significant as it was musically. Broadly, I am talking about what happed when Little Richard shook up the music world and when ASCAP fought with BMI, the payola scandals, and the rise of the kings of coopted rock n roll (Pat Boone, Elvis, etc.). Also, Little Richard, Fats Domino and others brought the streets to the white mainstream in ways that both threatened the establishment and became the soundtrack of the 60s and 70s civil rights movement.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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ehjay
Member since Jun 09th 2003
735 posts
Sat Jul-03-04 03:17 AM

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89. "Oh really"
In response to Reply # 80


  

          


>>Good one - I try to discuss the subject in earnest. you
>>resort to playground tactics. Guess I am wasting my time.
>
>You are if you think I am here to debate.

This I did not expect. What are you here for then?

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what's the talk of the sophomore jinx?

  

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Nettrice
Charter member
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Sat Jul-03-04 04:44 PM

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91. "I'm here for the dialogue"
In response to Reply # 89
Sat Jul-03-04 04:44 PM

  

          

Dialogue is collaborative: two or more sides work together toward common understanding (we can agree to disagree).

Debate is oppositional: two sides oppose each other and attempt to prove each other wrong.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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ehjay
Member since Jun 09th 2003
735 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 06:38 AM

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43. "Trust me, Nettrice."
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

5 years ago, I was making the same arguments you are in an Art History seminar. Luckily, I was the expert on Hip Hop history in the room - otherwise I would have failed .

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what's the talk of the sophomore jinx?

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 05:46 AM

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28. "RE: Hip Hop"
In response to Reply # 18


          

>I don't like the fact that Cos and some of the people on
>this post blame hip hop in general for what is going on the
>community.

-arent you a white guy?

>Hip Hop can be such a positive influence.

-but it isn't. time is up for all you hippie flower children dreamers. we can talk for years about the "coulda woulda shoulda's" but that aint how it is. lets deal in that.

>Sometimes it reflects life in a way that portrays it in a
>suspect manner, but I think it seldom changes it for the
>worse.

-i disagree wholeheartedly. I remember reading an issue of the final call and there was an article about our low marriage rates and the author of the article blamed the culture of being a "pimp" in our community for men not wanting to settle down...of course they blamed the white man for all of that but the point had been made...all these songs that promote promiscuity and being "pimps" has ALOT to do with the illegetimacy rates within our community...what about the article in essence i posted a few months back about our young black females self esteem issues linked to music videos? none of this can be backed by scientific research but i refuse to sit back and believe that one has nothing to do with the other...

>You can disagree if you want. I just don't think
>that the elimination of hip hop is an answer for black
>leadership, which is a role that I think Cosby may be trying
>to take on. All speaking out against hip hop will do is
>alienate one from a large part of the black community.

- well mr white guy, you may not know this but there are alot of folks who are critical of hip hop who were already alienated from the black community before...besides, who said anything about eliminating hip hop? mr cosby has paid his dues as well as educated tons and tons of black folks with his television programming...i understand peoples love for REAL hip hop, but that shit is just music. bill cosby has donated so many millions of dollars to keep black colleges open it aint even funny, i should know because i went to one that recieved his aide (MILES)...

  

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Nettrice
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Fri Jul-02-04 05:56 AM

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31. "Repeat: Hip-Hop Timeline"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

1979 - Rapper's Delight hit the airwaves, bringing rap music to the mainstream. Others followed suite: Grandmaster Flash, LL Cool J, Run DMC, Fat Boys, Dougie Fresh, Slick Rick, etc. Hip-hop became the party music of the 80s until Public Enemy in the late 80s and reflected a new era ahead.

1981-1989 - Ronald Reagan was president. Reaganomics reduced the growth of government spending, reduced the marginal tax rates on income from both labor and capital, reduced regulation, and reduced inflation by controlling the growth of the money supply. Yet, spending was at a higher point than any time in recent history. What were so many people spending money on?

1985 - Cocaine was the drug of choice. The increase in demand led to a drop in price. This led to the development of 'crack cocaine', a cheap mix of cocaine and baking powder (sodium bicarbonate) which, when smoked, gives an intense, short-lived but compelling hit. As a result, crack cocaine flooded into US cities and crippled urban - often black - communities.

Cocaine use hit its peak in the US in 1985 with over 5.7 million users (nearly 3% of the population) using cocaine at least "once every month". It was popular at parties and with folks in music and entertainment. It was big business, supply and demand. Who was selling it?

Late 80s - Gangsta Rap hit the airwaves. Gangsta rap focused on the violence and misogyny inherent in the gangster lifestyle, this lifestlye was often centered around drug selling, esp. cocaine and crack. Gangsta rappers, on the tail of party and rebel rap music, expressed the reality of inner-city ghetto life. The audience for gangsta rap has become overwhelmingly white...this was the music of the late 80s and early 90s, until the "bling, bling" era.

So, we got the birth of mainstream hip-hop, crack, Reaganomics, and gangsta rap all in the same decade? Coincidence? I don't think so.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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WhiteSoulVKF
Member since Jan 28th 2004
517 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 06:42 AM

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44. "It's funny how you get pissed for no reason...."
In response to Reply # 28


  

          


>-arent you a white guy?

Yes, I am a white guy...your point? White people listen to as much if not more "hip-hop" as black people do these days...I'm making these statements from the outside, and I don't claim to have answers for the black community because I AM NOT BLACK. That's dumb, and I hate it when white people think they can SAVE black people and have their best interests in mind when it is impossible for them to know. However, I do believe I can be afforded the right to criticize someone who makes public statements, regardless of those statements' content.

>-but it isn't. time is up for all you hippie flower children
>dreamers. we can talk for years about the "coulda woulda
>shoulda's" but that aint how it is. lets deal in that.

You are going to tell me that listening to Mos Def, Common, Talib, and other conscious cats like that can't have a positive effect on others? It can't uplift one's soul and make them feel empowered? Or are you just making a general statement here relating to all hip-hop, good and bad? Are you also going to tell me that it's better for there to be no hip-hop influence there, when at times guys get so engrossed in music that it gets them off the streets? It does have a positive effect.


>-i disagree wholeheartedly. I remember reading an issue of
>the final call and there was an article about our low
>marriage rates and the author of the article blamed the
>culture of being a "pimp" in our community for men not
>wanting to settle down...of course they blamed the white man
>for all of that but the point had been made...all these
>songs that promote promiscuity and being "pimps" has ALOT to
>do with the illegetimacy rates within our community...what
>about the article in essence i posted a few months back
>about our young black females self esteem issues linked to
>music videos? none of this can be backed by scientific
>research but i refuse to sit back and believe that one has
>nothing to do with the other...
>

I didn't say that one has nothing to do with the other...I said that the music is a reflection of the community, not vice-versa. I am not saying that it is right, and that the objectification upheld in those videos doesn't lengthen the cycle by glorifying the "pimp" ideal, but not all artists support such ideals.

>- well mr white guy, you may not know this but there are
>alot of folks who are critical of hip hop who were already
>alienated from the black community before...besides, who
>said anything about eliminating hip hop? mr cosby has paid
>his dues as well as educated tons and tons of black folks
>with his television programming...i understand peoples love
>for REAL hip hop, but that shit is just music. bill cosby
>has donated so many millions of dollars to keep black
>colleges open it aint even funny, i should know because i
>went to one that recieved his aide (MILES)...

I have not said anything bad about Cosby; I actually think that if he wants to continue, he could possibly be a strong black leader. All I did was criticize the singling out of hip hop as the main influence tearing the black community apart; hip hop does a lot of great things as well. That's my entire thing right there. And please, if you aren't going to blame the white man for any black problems (which as a white guy I even do a lot), then stop throwing the fact that I am white in my face in an argument where I am critiqing a public speaker, not claiming to be black. My race in such a situation shouldn't matter.

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 07:01 AM

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48. "RE: It's funny how you get pissed for no reason...."
In response to Reply # 44


          

>Yes, I am a white guy...your point?

-you are in no position to comment on the black community. you refer to "the community" a number of times in your post. what the fuck do you know about our community just because you listen to hip hop?

>White people listen to
>as much if not more "hip-hop" as black people do these
>days...

-hmmm my point above is proven. have u been fed ex-ed your "black" certificate yet?

>I'm making these statements from the outside, and I
>don't claim to have answers for the black community because
>I AM NOT BLACK. That's dumb, and I hate it when white
>people think they can SAVE black people and have their best
>interests in mind when it is impossible for them to know.
>However, I do believe I can be afforded the right to
>criticize someone who makes public statements, regardless of
>those statements' content.

- hmmmm u totally contradict yourself in the same sentence. how can you understand what goes on in the community if A) u arent black, and B) u arent black. so basically because mr cosby goes against what u have heard in rap songs, that you disagree. amazing.


>You are going to tell me that listening to Mos Def, Common,
>Talib, and other conscious cats like that can't have a
>positive effect on others?

-uhmmmm check their album sales and check 50, chingy, luda's album sales. just because all YOU listen to is "conscious" hip hop doesnt mean shit. if u want to get real about this problem, get real about what the MASSES are listening to.


>It can't uplift one's soul and
>make them feel empowered? Or are you just making a general
>statement here relating to all hip-hop, good and bad?

-check my response prior to this one, sounds 2 me like im dealing in reality and u are coming down off your mushroom high.

>Are
>you also going to tell me that it's better for there to be
>no hip-hop influence there, when at times guys get so
>engrossed in music that it gets them off the streets? It
>does have a positive effect.

-there is hip hop influence, but what kind of influence. in fact, go check the billboard top 20 hip hop charts. www.billboard.com from there tell me what "influence" these songs are having on people.


>I didn't say that one has nothing to do with the other...I
>said that the music is a reflection of the community, not
>vice-versa. I am not saying that it is right, and that the
>objectification upheld in those videos doesn't lengthen the
>cycle by glorifying the "pimp" ideal, but not all artists
>support such ideals.

-lol you are still staying loyal to these 400 album selling artists. its obvious this conversation isnt for you because you refuse to acknowledge the existence of rappers outside of okayartists, plus you probably dont know that many people who listen to 106 n park artists...people like u live in another world altogether, a world where 50 cents PIMP and khia's "my neck my back" dont exist. again, this convo isnt for you.

>I have not said anything bad about Cosby; I actually think
>that if he wants to continue, he could possibly be a strong
>black leader. All I did was criticize the singling out of
>hip hop as the main influence tearing the black community
>apart; hip hop does a lot of great things as well.

- you know whats funny. mr cosby never said anything about hip hop he just reffered to lyrical content. r&b is just as ignorant as hip hop nowdaze too...and if u arent black how do u know whether or not hip hop is damaging to the community or not...ive lived amongst poor black folks pretty much my entire life, ive seen how folks went from high top wearing b-boys to thugs seemingly overnight...some of u will blame outside forces like a political party or prison system, but im not stupid, that shit comes from the music and the videos and movies like menace 2 society and boyz in the hood...

>That's
>my entire thing right there. And please, if you aren't
>going to blame the white man for any black problems (which
>as a white guy I even do a lot), then stop throwing the fact
>that I am white in my face in an argument where I am
>critiqing a public speaker, not claiming to be black. My
>race in such a situation shouldn't matter.

-actually it everything to do with it. just try to imagine me being a black man on an asian web site and they are talking about problems within the asian community, and because i listen to asian music, i feel like i have a grasp on asian culture and what they go through...would it be my place to talk to them about what is right/wrong with their community? would i be qualified to tell them that the guy on MAD TV isnt damaging to their image? sometimes you white people just try to get in where u fit in so you go through this "black" phase and thats cool, but on certain issues such as what mr cosby is speaking on? just shut the fuck up.

  

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WhiteSoulVKF
Member since Jan 28th 2004
517 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 07:16 AM

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49. "I'm gonna stay calm"
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

And just say this...

I grew up in a black community with nothing but black friends who were barely scraping by, and I acknowledge that still doesn't make me black, nor do I claim to have any sort of understanding of being black. However, if you talked to me, you would know that I am not the "black phase" guy you speak of. And by having lived within a black community my entire life until 18, I at least have a somewhat limited view of how hip hop influences the black people who I have known. If you want me to talk about rap's influence from a white perspective though, then I will do it this way.

AS I said earlier, and as you have acknowledged yourself, white people are listening to hip hop like crazy (by the way, everybody watches 106 and Park around here, it's the south) and driving a lot of sales. Why aren't the problems expressed in hip-hop bearing their head in the white community? Almost every white young person I know listens to some sort of hip hop, however, the problems Cosby is discussing aren't showing up. If hip hop has such an overwhelming influence, why isn't this occuring?

By the way, my point was that all hip hop isn't the same. Music runs in cyclical patterns, and one can see a more conscious attitude returning to popular hip hop with artists like Kanye West (a few more than 400 sold). Oh, and by the way, I never thought caring about the state of the black community as a white guy was a bad thing. I've always thought it would be nice if more white people cared. But I digress. At least as a white man, I am willing to still see the injustice in this world carried out against blacks. It doesn't seem like you are.

  

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WhiteSoulVKF
Member since Jan 28th 2004
517 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 07:20 AM

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50. "One more thing..."
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

I just picked the hip hop thing from Cosby because it just kind of bugged me. At this point, it is an argument between your view and my view, no longer his, because you are much more extreme (at least it seems like you are) in your blame of lyrics and hip hop than Cosby is. I understand that Cosby didn't heap all problems on hip hop or lyrics in general. He just mentioned them.

  

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Wisdom9
Member since Sep 17th 2003
360 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 08:05 AM

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52. "I think that the point Suave is making is that...."
In response to Reply # 50
Fri Jul-02-04 08:21 AM

          

your personal relationship to hip-hop is irrelevant to the issue here. Cosby is talking about the effect of these kinds of ignorant cultural products and practices on the *black* community, not America as a whole.

The fact that many white people listen to hip-hop these days does not somehow magically endow them with any special insight into black problems and issues. Your predecessors had the same relationship to blues, jazz, rock and roll, etc,--but their interest in the music/culture didn't suddenly cause them to be insightful about black people's issues. This generation is no different.

Do you know what would happen if I, as a black person, came to a conference on Jewish cultural issues, for example, and tried to lecture Jews on how they should view themselves? Or tried to weigh in on a controversial debate within the Jewish community?

Do you know what the reaction would be if I said, "Gee guys, I grew up in a Jewish neghborhood, and I really identify with many aspects of Jewish culture, therefore I'm going to weigh in on your discussion."? I would be told to STFU, *quick fast*. The same would be true if I tried to lecture Puerto Ricans, Armenians, Koreans, etc, in a similar manner...and that is the way it should be, as far as I am concerned.

Whether you realize it or not, your attitude is disrespectful, and reeks of a double-standard.


  

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WhiteSoulVKF
Member since Jan 28th 2004
517 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 09:27 AM

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56. "RE: I think that the point Suave is making is that...."
In response to Reply # 52


  

          


Are you reading my posts? I said exactly this...I don't feel that hip hop gives me insight! My comments were strictly based on hip hop's influence on others. However, I also said it was my opinion, and that I have no answers for the black community. I said that even though I grew up with nothing but black people, I still don't understand what it is to be black and have no criticism of the black community. My criticism was srtictly based in the fact that I don't belive life reflects music; it is the other way around. That's it. I'm sorry that I ever said anything, because I feel that I have been misinterpreted as some white guy who wants to stick his nose where it doesn't belong. I am sorry if that is the impression I gave. Please go back though, and make sure that you read what I said.

I said that I am not black and have no idea what is right for black people. My criticism was strictly based on the idea of whether music reflects life or life reflects music. I didn't know that being white restricted me from having a part in this discussion.


  

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Wisdom9
Member since Sep 17th 2003
360 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 09:53 AM

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59. "I read your posts..."
In response to Reply # 56
Fri Jul-02-04 10:01 AM

          

and my point is that remarks such as yours would be dismissed out of hand if they were directed at *any* other group but American blacks, notwithstanding all of the qualifications you made in your initial statement. White people tend to take these kinds of liberties with us because of the 'special' historical relationship between blacks and whites in this country. The fact that they often do this unwittingly does not make the behavior any less galling for blacks.

You may feel put-upon as a result of my pointing this out, but it does not change the fact that it is true.

After all, this debate isn't about you.....right?

  

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WhiteSoulVKF
Member since Jan 28th 2004
517 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 10:10 AM

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60. "This debate..."
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

...I felt was about the effect of music on people. I didn't think it had to be color specific. However, if it does have to be color specific, then I am sorry. If that is the case, I know absolutely nothing of what goes on in the black mind upon hearing hip hop. My original post simply said that I didn't think hip hop was a bad influence on the mind...instead, I felt that hip hop like all other forms of music, is a reflection of where it comes from. The only race statement I made in my original post was that if someone advocated the elimination of hip hop as a black leader, they would most likely alienate themselves from the black community. I said this, not as someone who understands blacks, but as someone who understands that hip hop is primarily an african american art form that is enjoyed by a large number of blacks. Every other thing that has been said about my race has been brought up by suave. Go back to my very first post in this thread, #18. I gave no qualifications. I simply said that I thought that you couldn't blame hip hop for what occurs in the community. Suave bro took that to mean specifically the black community. I simply meant the public. I do want to ask, what about my statement implies that I know what is good or bad for blacks?

My statement was about the nature of art, and the way that if one tries to eliminate a popular artform, the people who enjoy that artform will turn against that person. Why does my being white limit my ability to make such a general statement?

I understand that you feel that I am making a comment about a community that I am not a part of. However, I am not. I am talking about music and people. That is all. I have a right to debate whether music affects people or people affect music. That argument is about me and every other person who turns on a stereo.

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 10:32 AM

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64. "this is what pisses me off..."
In response to Reply # 60


          

when folks say shit like this:

>I felt that hip hop like all other forms of
>music, is a reflection of where it comes from.

this just lets me know that our image TO. THE. WORLD. (NOT JUST WHITE PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) has been distorted...again, I can tell the difference when a mofoe is speaking from the heart and when somebody is glamourizing ignorant shit. for example, when mos def and common are speaking on the streets i can feel it, its from the heart...when G-UNIT are talking about the hood with fireworks going on stage, them coming up from under the stage on some crane, with 9000 hoes on stage humping the air with them, that shit aint "tellin' it like it is", thats niggas exploiting themselves for $$$ and fucking up young peoples heads at the same time...they also make ghetto life look beautiful and glamourous like life is one big ass sex orgy after the club...THAT is what bill cosby is talking about, THAT is what is damaging to our community...

if u want to talk about what 10 or 12 little positive coffee shop rappers that hardly no black folks are even paying any attention to, then create your own post/forum and big them up...i know the tic toc, ive see dead prez live and i was the only black dude in the audience that knew the lyrics. black folks are not checking for the artists on this site the way we are lil wayne and chingy, ying yang twinz etc etc...

  

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WhiteSoulVKF
Member since Jan 28th 2004
517 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 10:41 AM

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66. "I agree with this"
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

Suave Bro, on this one, we agree. I feel what you are saying about people doing what they do for cash and not for truth. I guess maybe I have allowed myself to get sucked into the "coffee shop" rap so much that I forget the image that bling bling/gangsta rappers put out there. I guess instead of using the "expression of where it comes from" phrase, I should use "expression of WHO it comes from." I think 50 probably believes he is truly expressing himself when he says stuff because that seems to be the only thing HE cares about, but you are right. That is not the reality your everyday person experiences, and it sends out a bad message to everyone who doesn't know the difference. Good point.

  

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yngblkprinceMD
Member since Mar 31st 2004
756 posts
Wed Jul-07-04 04:10 AM

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104. "I completely agree"
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

with what u posted here and co-sign ur statement about how this "pimp and ho" glorification is really damaging black relationships (marriage and respect for black women) and the artists such as 50 cent, lil jon are to blame for this ignorance but they are not the only culprits...interscope is owned by a white person and many black artists can barely get deals unless their promoting this bullshyt, i mean look at mos and common, they struglle to get their albums out and when they do come out the "flop" sales wise, while 50 cent's sales are like 6 mil+, a large portion of these sells being white kids who are quite comfortable thinking this is all that black ppl are about...also lets not forget that there is a reason why our ppl have these values and whites dont, it again stems from the de-humanization of our ppl that has been going on for the last 500 years+, no human being naturally has these ideas of disrespecting women and killing for fun and glory...these are learned "values"

SIG:

"Many of us have misconceptions about Black history in amerika. What we are taught in the public school system is usually innaccurate, distorted, and packed full of outright lies. Among the most common lies are that Lincoln freed the slaves, that

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Wed Jul-07-04 06:40 AM

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107. "cant blame the industry"
In response to Reply # 104


          

blame the consumer and the artists/producers...if u ran a record label and you had to feed your kids and yourself, would you be concerned about whether or not 50 or common was making you millions? at what point do we stop blaming the media OUTLETS for being just that, AN OUTLET.

  

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Monique
Charter member
2511 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 05:28 AM

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26. "7-8 YEAR OLDS"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Jul-02-04 05:36 AM

  

          

nawww, mr. cosby.
<<<BACK THAT UP TO AGE 6,5.....maybe younger. i do not know....

BUT, FOR SURE MY OLDEST WAS 6 WHEN I FOUND HIM BOLD ENOUGH TO BE ON MY MOTHER'S LIVING ROOM FLOOR........

HUMPING HIS .SS OFF, FULLY DRESSED AND ON TOP!!

i do not know, but i guess i whipped that hump out until he was a teenager.
the youngest one as a teenager......told him to "take a cold shower", .... off" (.........te) had to give the bigger,better word.
that's what we want in life the good word, not the elementary words. i give both, to leave no word unturned up in here!

at those ages and when men get as they say "too olde", well they just call it "piss ..rd".
now at that age what ya gonna do something bothering you and even p...ing does not help.

PLAYING NURSE AND DOCTOR AIN"T ALL ABOUT YOUR FUTURE CAREER.

allll too often many go for same sex, relatives(INCEST ABOUNDS--LONGG B4 TODAY'S MUSIC) and yes folks ANIMALS.

i feel certain there are many dead chickens from the pass.

now, my husband told me a DUCK, or near kind looks like a female.
i asked so did you........, then came silence!

IN OTHER WORDS.
MUSIC IS NOT ALWAYS THE CULPRIT.

"an idle mind, (or curiosity-no matter your background)is the devil's workshop".

PROBLEMS . YES. AND CONTINUED WORK TO BE DONE.

HELP THEM NOW, OR JUST GO AHEAD AND SPEND YOUR MONEY IN GATED COMMUNITIES---SECURITY ALARMS--SECURITY BARS.

not just black perpetrators.
but, yes,yes, we are on the subject of our own people and responsibility and negativity.

like a friend told me. they do not want what you have(ghetto---goodwill goods), they are going where the money is. hmm, kinda like "FOLLOW THE MONEY".

and on another level of "Follow The Money"--yep, right on into the ghetto for the goods.

THINK YOUR PRISTEEN NEIGHBORHOOD IS GOOD.

well, it is only because someone in it is going to the ghetto for their goods and helping to keep it corrupt.
forget a car lot. just wait for the Rich and Famous to ride in, then go select your car from the lot....
if you get the money someday soon.

GOOD NEIGHBORHOODS.
sometime i prefer the ghetto, because sometime a body, or bodies come out of those plush, middle income neighborhoods and neighbors go, "We Do Not Have That In Our Neighborhood", Yeah Right, UNTIL........You see That/Those Bodies.....

See/Hear D'ANGELO @ www.dangelosangels.com . MISS NO PAGES.


***********************************************************
NELLY: I'm Humble In Life Taking Nothing For Granted

AFRICA: www.bbcnews.com

THE BROKER: John Grisham

  

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BIG-B
Charter member
2023 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 07:53 AM

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51. "RE: Cosby"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Yeah he makes some good points. But is this the place where they will listen to him? I'm not sure.

R.I.P. #21

http://twitter.com/bigbthreethree

I still Luv HER
http://bigbrian68.podomatic.com/

  

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shamus
Member since Oct 18th 2004
4459 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 09:46 AM

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57. "All the noise generated by his comments"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

is a good then. maybe then all the debate will reach the ears of the people that need to hear it the most. i hope that his words will at least reach one parent or kid who is self reflective enough to see that they fall in that category and then they can work on themselves and improve.

i don't really understand the criticism of what cosby said and the questions of "where were you when blank and blank was going on?" so what? does that mean that this point of view should go unexpressed, that he shouldn't be angry because a young person thinks he wasn't working sufficiently for the black cause through such and such a time period?



--
the untold want by life and land ne'er granted
now voyager sail thou forth to seek and find

  

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Case_One
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54687 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 10:10 AM

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61. "If you're not with Bill then you're part of the problem"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Bill is RIGHT!

.
.

Life is Good.

  

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marcus3x
Member since Dec 07th 2003
2815 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 10:22 AM

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62. "Bill Cosby Still Bitching"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

His comment about black men beating their wives because they can't find jobs is speculative. Most research on domestic violence reflects the assertion that domestic violence is often times a learned behavior. Poor black men are no more likely to commit domestic violence against their partners than middle class or rich men of every other racial group.

If Cosby really wants to be responsible, then he needs to stop spreading false information that is based more on opinion than research. As a scholar his comments would be challenged, deflated and his reputation would now begin to reflect his inability to separate personal perception with verifiable reality.

Lastly, Cosby and his wealthy negro friends need to set aside their egos, come together pulling their finances together to setup institutions for the youth to correct the problems he is bitching about. The negro aint even bringing why black youth are so fucked to bring forward solutions to correct the problems.

-----------------------------
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Case_One
Charter member
54687 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 10:35 AM

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65. "Why don't you and your negro friend build a school"
In response to Reply # 62
Fri Jul-02-04 10:38 AM

          

And quit waiting for a rich cat like bill to do it for you..

I mean your so educated and informed, that finding the capital and resources to build a school for endangered or deprived communities should be not problem.

I mean I read you post from time to time and you seem to have a grasp of the issues facing the black community. Plus you go a lot of cronies agreeing with you on a lot of subject. Why donít you all, get together and build a school or a recreation center or a room for that matter.


The way I see it, Bill cut through all the pontification and rhetoric and put the crap on the table like it is. Black ( us, you, me, them and yíall) need to wake the FUCK up!.



PS: If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck with a sign on it that reads, " Hey I'm a Damn Duck" then it must be a duck.

.
.

Life is Good.

  

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marcus3x
Member since Dec 07th 2003
2815 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 10:58 AM

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69. "RESPONSE"
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

since you know me tell me what i have and have not done to help correct problems in the black community.

bill cosby aint expose nothing new

yall negroes act like cosby brought a new revelation to black people

this is the same negro who promoted the shit out of FAT ALBERT which depicted the same images of black youth that cosby is so critical about. not to mention cosby played the voice of MUSH MOUTH who did not speak "proper" english

-----------------------------
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Case_One
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54687 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 02:40 PM

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82. "Back At you X. As you avoid my question.."
In response to Reply # 69


          

Well it might not be new, but itís not a topic that is often spoken about by prominent black authority figures.


The fact the Bill carries a lot of clout in the black community and the communities of entertainment and politics helps to influence the importance of these social and educational issues.


Face it if you stood on a stage speaking about social and educational Vs. Bill saying the same thing, whoís going to be taken more seriously, you or Bill?

And if you look at Fat Albert, the characters blended the diverseness of the black community while eliminating any bias and hate towards each other. The Fat Albert cartoon showed and displayed the importance of integrity, honesty, friendship, and community.


.
.

Life is Good.

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 10:42 AM

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67. "why are u even still alive?"
In response to Reply # 62


          

I'm asking that question in all seriousness. I always wonder about black folks who find racism and inequality in every facet of black life, injustice and oppression around every corner, schools, workplace, criminal system, entertainment industry, i mean if racism is that thick that u cant move? why not just end your life? i mean nothing will ever change anyway right? just do it man nobody will miss you...


>His comment about black men beating their wives because they
>can't find jobs is speculative. Most research on domestic
>violence reflects the assertion that domestic violence is
>often times a learned behavior. Poor black men are no more
>likely to commit domestic violence against their partners
>than middle class or rich men of every other racial group.

-funny u later accuse mr cosby of not giving statistical data, yet u say most research on domestic violence comes from a learned behavior. personally i know thats bullshit off the top. but anyway, where is YOUR data?

>If Cosby really wants to be responsible, then he needs to
>stop spreading false information that is based more on
>opinion than research. As a scholar his comments would be
>challenged, deflated and his reputation would now begin to
>reflect his inability to separate personal perception with
>verifiable reality.

-nigga please. if he came with the studies whats the first thing your monkey ass would say: "dem beez da white man statistics!! da white man jess tryenz ta make us looks bad and heez be an uncle tom fo' bringen dem up like dat!" again. nigga please!

>Lastly, Cosby and his wealthy negro friends need to set
>aside their egos, come together pulling their finances
>together to setup institutions for the youth to correct the
>problems he is bitching about. The negro aint even bringing
>why black youth are so fucked to bring forward solutions to
>correct the problems.

-apparently you think this is the mr bill cosby that works at the Kroger your mother sends you out to everyday...nigga are you even on EARTH!!?? that man has donated more money than all of us on this board put together into black colleges and various programs for the youth...not to mention educational books and television programs...man are you HIGH or sumthen!?!

  

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marcus3x
Member since Dec 07th 2003
2815 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 11:01 AM

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70. "blame the liberals/democrats"
In response to Reply # 67
Fri Jul-02-04 11:02 AM

  

          

BEEN TO the WHOREHOUSE (aka playoy mansion) WITH JESSE AND BILL? I HEARD IT IS A GREAT PLACE FOR MARRIED NEGRO MEN TO FUCK WHITE WOMEN.

http://www.7mac.com/LibRadio/news/finalmarty_files/image001.jpg

TRY OFFERING SOME SOLUTIONS FOR ONCE

don't go off screaming that republican bullshit

-----------------------------
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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 11:18 AM

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71. "calm your fake bobby seale ass down."
In response to Reply # 70


          

that man offered up a solution, he said to "stop". stop this madness because that's all it is...you know ive noticed something about you, underneath all your dumbass conspiracy theories and constant yelling and screaming, you are just an ordinary "activist" asking for the same solutions that have done NOTHING for our community: "set up programs! give us money! mentor youth!" all of that is all good but what about tackling issues like illegitmacy, fatherless homes, promiscuous behaviors, an invisible black church...come to think of it, you've NEVER been critical of these things, yet u call yourself a "revolutionary".

  

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WhiteSoulVKF
Member since Jan 28th 2004
517 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 11:28 AM

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72. "Bizarro world Argument!!!"
In response to Reply # 71
Fri Jul-02-04 11:30 AM

  

          

It's like Superman fighting Bizarro World Superman! Suave Bro vs. Marcus3x! I'm probably going to get blasted for this one, but I found it too fun to pass up....polar opposite perspectives arguing on this board is fun....

  

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marcus3x
Member since Dec 07th 2003
2815 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 12:06 PM

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73. "WHAT SOLUTION"
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

that man offered up a solution, he said to "stop". stop this madness because that's all it is. - suave_bro

Bill Cosby screaming, STOP is a solution. too fuckin' funny.

it is amazing as to how you and others claim to know what people who you have never met do and don't do to improve conditions in the black community

BLAME THE LIBERALS

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Marcus3x's leading candidates for 2004 Idiot of the Year

1. Pat Tillman - former nfl player leaves family and a multi-million dollar contract to fight for Bush's lies only to end

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 01:30 PM

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75. "this nigga"
In response to Reply # 73


          

man that is a solution if i've ever heard one...you negroes are forever going on and on about govt funding and successfull blacks giving back...the govt gives us the $$$ we ask for and there are plenty of folks "giving back" yet aint shit changed...why do you cowardly negroes ignore this issue time after time?

nigga have a bean pie and take your ass back to that little 2 dollar fake ass radio station...

  

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Case_One
Charter member
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Fri Jul-02-04 02:43 PM

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84. "Cosign!"
In response to Reply # 75


          



!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dame: Why is it absurd Bill? Because hip-hop is black culture? Remember, we were the first humans on the planet.

O'Reilly: And look what you did with your head start.





"I am not afraid to point out my weaknesses, for in these things, Godís glory is magnified".(Me Aug02)

Those who have surpassed the heights of oneís previous celebrated achievements define the act of excellence. So that makes me excellent in every way. (Me Oct 2003)

.
.

Life is Good.

  

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marcus3x
Member since Dec 07th 2003
2815 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 04:31 PM

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87. "2 funny"
In response to Reply # 75
Fri Jul-02-04 04:39 PM

  

          

make some signs saying STOP IT and i am sure a lot of changes will take place

hahahaa........take your wanna be white ass to world net daily or newsmax.com

you wish you had the intellect and $$ to run a 24 hour BLACK OWNED internet radio station

BLAME THE LIBERALS

-----------------------------
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Marcus3x's leading candidates for 2004 Idiot of the Year

1. Pat Tillman - former nfl player leaves family and a multi-million dollar contract to fight for Bush's lies only to end

  

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marcus3x
Member since Dec 07th 2003
2815 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 04:38 PM

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88. "SPEAKING OF CONSPIRACY THEORIES"
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

the following are not considered conspiracy theories by suave_bro SIMPLY because there is a republican/conservative administration in the whitehouse. just imagine what suave_bro would say to the following f clinton was president. telling a lie about a dick sucking is far worse than starting a war off of lies. - marcus3x

where are those weapons of mass destruction?

why did the u.s. lie about never detaining nick berg?

why did the u.s. lie about the jessica lynch rescue story?

why did the u.s. in regards to iraq having a role in 9-11-01?

why did the u.s. lie in regards to iraq trying to purchase uranium from niger?

why did the bush administration lie in regards to air force one receiving threats from "terrorists?"

-----------------------------
Support and listen to www.libradio.com

Marcus3x's leading candidates for 2004 Idiot of the Year

1. Pat Tillman - former nfl player leaves family and a multi-million dollar contract to fight for Bush's lies only to end

  

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yngblkprinceMD
Member since Mar 31st 2004
756 posts
Wed Jul-07-04 04:23 AM

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106. "completely agree"
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

my stance on bill's recent invectives is really changing, im glad these things are being said, but the way they're being said and how are not sitting well with me, i hope bill doesnt think hes some kinda great revolutionary by saying this shyt cause all he is really doing is talking out his ass...

if he thinks he is such an authority on how black parents and men should act he should start doing a nation wide tour where he goes to different neighborhoods and teahces workshops on what it is to be a "good black man"

also isnt this the same dude that cheated on his wife, so i dont kno where he is really basing his holier than thou, u ignorant niggas are worthless position from, he needs to sit down, think and come with some real solutions...

SIG:

"Many of us have misconceptions about Black history in amerika. What we are taught in the public school system is usually innaccurate, distorted, and packed full of outright lies. Among the most common lies are that Lincoln freed the slaves, that

  

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Trinity444
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Fri Jul-02-04 12:20 PM

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74. "no humility no solutions"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I havent followed this from the beginining, I just read the link you provided.....

we all know there is some truth to what crosby said, however the problem i have with it, is how he's doing it. rev. jess who's suppose to be the "spiritual leader" of the people but cant speak on nothing because his imagne is tainted.

he came with no humility or solutions,

Its easy to call them out but what are you offering them? If they cant read or write then people need some intruction. I guess his is eduction, which is cool if that your desires...do you!

If I could ask him a questions it would be, "how do you go about doing that when your from a broken home, a bad community and nobody cares?" and lets not forget we have no culture or way we suppose to live....cause every man makes his own choices

cosby backers, feel free to answer the question. Help a sista overstand <----inside joke

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
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Fri Jul-02-04 01:32 PM

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76. "yall have GOT to shut the fuck up"
In response to Reply # 74
Fri Jul-02-04 01:33 PM

          

SOLUTIONS!?!? THIS IS BILL GOT DAMN MUTHAFUCKIN' COSBY!!! IF ANYBODY HAS "GIVEN BACK" TO THE COMMUNITY ITS THIS MAN!! EVERY "SOLUTION" THAT YOU CAN COME UP WITH, THIS MAN HAS TRIED IT, DONATED MILLIONS TOWARD IT, AND IMPLIMENTED IT!!! ARE YOU MUTHAFUCKAS HIGH!!??!? THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS THAT WHEN THE SOLUTIONS RUN OUT WHAT DO YOU DO!?!?

  

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Trinity444
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Fri Jul-02-04 01:45 PM

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77. "ok and what about the humility"
In response to Reply # 76


  

          

do you think making them feel less is the solution?

whats going to cause the believe to re-think themselves...bill crosby and how much money he fronting.

rememeber the people are uneducated cant read and write

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
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Fri Jul-02-04 03:05 PM

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86. "sugar coat it!?"
In response to Reply # 77
Fri Jul-02-04 03:06 PM

          

fuck that. what pisss me off about this is that these niggas out here can walk around and be as arrogant, non compromising, sinister, cruel, barbaric, hateful, and relentless as they want to be in their never ending pursuit for pussy, guns, drugs, and money...yet when it comes to DEALING with these niggas you expect for folks to be caring, soft, "HUMBLE", and compassionate!?! are you 4real?! how far do you think that shit will get "activists"...

the beauty of what mr cosby did was just that. he didnt try to pull a tavis smiley or cornell west and michael dyson on people and talk over their heads with intellectual metaphors n what not, he spelled it out so that the black man at harvard to the nigga hanging on the corner can hear it...im not feeling that whole passive approach to solving these problems. that day has come and gone.

  

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Trinity444
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90. "RE: sugar coat it!?"
In response to Reply # 86


  

          

>fuck that. what pisss me off about this is that these niggas
>out here can walk around and be as arrogant, non
>compromising, sinister, cruel, barbaric, hateful, and
>relentless as they want to be in their never ending pursuit
>for pussy, guns, drugs, and money...yet when it comes to
>DEALING with these niggas you expect for folks to be caring,
>soft, "HUMBLE", and compassionate!?! are you 4real?! how far
>do you think that shit will get "activists"...

no one is saying sugar coat anything but do you think the message will get across better....if you insult the people, or if you treat them with respect and by showing some compassion? If all a people know, or...been expose to....been taught...live in an enviroment as...mothers/fathers dont care, on drugs, limited educations themselves, THATS ALL YOU WILL KNOW IS, "PUSSY, GUNS, DRUGS, and MONEY". you even dont give the people enough credit, so makes you think they have sense enough to get themselves out of this condition? but you say, scream on them...that will work...ok, got ya playa

people tend to rebel when you talk to them or treat them like, crap!

>the beauty of what mr cosby did was just that. he didnt try
>to pull a tavis smiley or cornell west and michael dyson on
>people and talk over their heads with intellectual metaphors
>n what not, he spelled it out so that the black man at
>harvard to the nigga hanging on the corner can hear it...im
>not feeling that whole passive approach to solving these
>problems. that day has come and gone.

Myself, I dont see any beauty in what he did. I respected him but you cant call your people out like that (who's already in a bad condition) and not offer them solutions. how often has he went back to the neighborhoods...walk them hoods, sleep in their homes, went to their schools, watch moms and daddys get high, huh, whats he really doing for the people besides pumpin money into black colleges, come on! the problem is in the communities, if they cant get out the communities....how they gonna get "educated" and spend some of HIS dollas!

you still ainet responding with solutions just alot of arrogance yourself. and if its insulting them like bill is, why are the people now divided, if thats the solution?

on to another solution?

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
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Sat Jul-03-04 08:35 PM

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93. "u cant be serious with this bullshit..."
In response to Reply # 90
Sat Jul-03-04 08:43 PM

          

>no one is saying sugar coat anything but do you think the
>message will get across better....if you insult the people,
>or if you treat them with respect and by showing some
>compassion?

-and again, these niggas on the street can behave in any manner they want and what do you mofoes say to them: "oh its understandable, they are oppressed, they have free reign to be as hateful and insulting as they wish"...but let somebody try to solve the problems with these same tactics and that is a no no..

>If all a people know, or...been expose
>to....been taught...live in an enviroment
>as...mothers/fathers dont care, on drugs, limited educations
>themselves, THATS ALL YOU WILL KNOW IS, "PUSSY, GUNS, DRUGS,
>and MONEY".

-hmmmm dr ben carson? oprah (who was sexually molested as a youth), Franklin D. Raines? i could go on and on giving you examples of blacks who come from the gutter and rise above...hell i didnt grow up in beverly hills statistically im suppose to be in jail or dead somewhere with X kids im not taking care of...u're just another nigga who has fallen for the hype...

>you even dont give the people enough credit, so
>makes you think they have sense enough to get themselves out
>of this condition? but you say, scream on them...that will
>work...ok, got ya playa

-and again you just proved my point with your (il)logic. downtrodden inner city blacks can behave in any manner they choose on their own free will and its okay because "black intellegensia" believes that this behavior stems from outside forces and is excusable...but blacks who are "immune" to these forces (the uncle toms) are subject to stricter scrutiny: no loud talking, no anger, must show compassion, must be "nice", must be loving, must be caring...who the fuck makes these rules!?

>people tend to rebel when you talk to them or treat them
>like, crap!

-hmmmmm...ive been treated like crap from black folks for liking star wars, video games, reading, like some "white boy" (their words not mine)...i havent rebelled, i havent knocked up 30 females, i havent sold any drugs...what is the basis of your theories?


>Myself, I dont see any beauty in what he did.

-I know you dont. bill cosby was suppose to blame the white man and cradle grown ass black men in his arms with comments of victimhood and scapegoatism.


>I respected
>him but you cant call your people out like that (who's
>already in a bad condition) and not offer them solutions.

-the solution is within us. just STOP. lets be real here for a second, how in the fuck do you tie racism/oppression to our fatherless homes, our 70% out of wedlock birth rates, our obsession with "ghetto" life sure da white man can be to blame for these institutions and setting the cards in place for our failure, but who made us LOVE our situation? why are thugs/gangsters looked up to and worshipped the way they are in our community? did the white man make it cool for us to be "pimps"!? why are doctors/lawyers invisible (not many black folks can name at least 5 millionaire black lawyers or doctors)?


>you still ainet responding with solutions just alot of
>arrogance yourself. and if its insulting them like bill is,
>why are the people now divided, if thats the solution?

- first of all you clowns need to delete that word from your vocabulary: solutions. in fact, i challenge somebody on these boards to come up with THEIR OWN solutions that dont involve the govt, govt funding, programs, and tutors/mentors. there is an ABUNDANCE of those things in our community as we speak, and aint shit changing...what bill cosby is doing is puting your weak and tired ass "solutions" to rest. we are past due begging for outside help, its time we started looking inward...arent you stupid ass negroes tired of riding through your communities watching folks drive around with 20K rims living in the projects? black folks spending billions and billions on clothes and weaves? mofoes dropping out of high school so they can get high and be "thugs" and get all the "hoes and bitches"!? when will you buffoons start getting REAL and stop being civil rights reenactors?

  

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Trinity444
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Sun Jul-04-04 08:46 AM

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95. "dead serious"
In response to Reply # 93


  

          

again, no one is saying that! all Im saying is there a way to be blunt with people and show sympathy.

you havent replied with any solutions and you know why, cause you dont know any but if you think calling people names and degrading them then thats were you mistaken.

name all those that are living/have lived...we still ainet free!

martin, when he came marching...with a humble spirit, people took heed...however, we still ainet free!

malcom, once he cleaned up his act, people took heed...however, we still ainet free!

such and such did it, the people took heed...however, we still ainet free!

whats the solution?

until you can offer one and a way to free the people, dont respond anymore to this post!

cause your ignorance and swear words arent helping the cause

PRO BLACK, baby! <---without no doubt!


  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Sun Jul-04-04 09:18 AM

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97. "RE: dead serious"
In response to Reply # 95
Sun Jul-04-04 09:20 AM

          

>again, no one is saying that! all Im saying is there a way
>to be blunt with people and show sympathy.

-and again for the 3rd time you havent answered my question. do thugs, hoodlums, gang bangers, show "sympathy" when they are out here on their rampages? when they are out here murdering and killing folks? a dude i went to high school with just got shot and killed the other night...do you suggest an "activist" approach those gunmen with "sympathy"!?!?

>you havent replied with any solutions and you know why,
>cause you dont know any but if you think calling people
>names and degrading them then thats were you mistaken.

- and my point has been proven with your statements. before i even became a "black conservative", i was ridiculed heavily just for how i dressed, walked, talked, the things liked the places i went...but its perfectly fine for these knucklehead ass niggas to parade around and behave in any way they want! the solution is simple: TOUGH LOVE. i was raised on it and it worked for me, why wont it work for everybody else? my mother didnt pamper me or baby me when i fucked up she told me that it was on me and if i wanted to do something with myself i better get my shit 2gether...amazingly other families and cultures teach their own this, why do we teach our youth that nothing is their fault and that somebody owes them something...

>name all those that are living/have lived...we still ainet
>free!

-how aren't we free? give specific examples of how ALL black people arent free. are only certain blacks not free? all blacks? you all always make these broad statements and leave them at that.

>martin, when he came marching...with a humble spirit, people
>took heed...however, we still ainet free!

-again, how arent we free? examples?


>malcom, once he cleaned up his act, people took
>heed...however, we still ainet free!

-examples?

>such and such did it, the people took heed...however, we
>still ainet free!

-*yawn*

>whats the solution?
>until you can offer one and a way to free the people, dont
>respond anymore to this post!
>cause your ignorance and swear words arent helping the cause

- 1) first of all we need to get dumbass fools like you off the street. the reason why nobody (NOT JUST WHITE AMERICANS) takes us seriously is because we make these bold and powerful emotionally charged statements and the shit doesnt match up with HOW WE ACTUALLY LIVE...hmmm we aint free yet i see niggas parade around out here making babies like jack rabbits, i see them selling drugs and freely spending their money on whatever they want, i see niggas dropping out of school and not going to college...though i dont PERSONALLY like all of this irresponsibility within our community, I fully understand that people are FREE to do these things... n that aspect black folks are the most "AMERICAN" people in this country...

2) have you ever seen LEAN ON ME? what if joe clark went in there and said "could u all please kindly refrain from cursing and fighting and selling drugs in the hallways...ize thanks ya"...he would have never gotten shit done. is that so wrong for our leaders and activists to take this approach? why do we put these invisible restraints on our leadership/activists? what we NEED to be doing is calling it like we see it, most of these niggas are sex starved hedonistic sociopaths who lust after sex, guns, drugs, power, clothes, rims, cars...FUCK HOW THEY FEEL!!! make them feel like SHIT who cares? for some reason its WORSE to call them these things but not for them to DO these things...black women? HA! but keep on sugar coating these things and telling these folks that they are victims and watch the black community get worse...

3.) stop telling our kids that they will never be shit in life due to racism and that "weez aint free!"...do you think that MOTIVATES them!? do you think that is INSPIRING!?! when was the last time you heard a black youth say "i was told that i couldnt be shit because of racism by jesse jackson and local black leaders, but that motivated me to get out there and try anyway"...if u dont believe me listen to jesse petersons radio show archives...he has young men in his program (BOND) that say these very same things...they lost the will to even TRY because they felt they would never make it because they'd been told their whole lives that "they aint free" by niggas like YOU!!! it wasnt until an UNCLE TOM black republican took them out of the streets that they got their college educations...im making it up? go to the site and check the archives!!

4.) stop saying "well white people do it TOoOoOoO"...when in black american history did we stop holding ourselves to a higher set of standards? when white folks were riding around lynching and murdering black folks we could have done the same thing but we didnt because we were more CIVILIZED than they were...WTF happened!?

but as i said in another post, solutions are irrelevant. nobody wants to SOLVE these problems, there are too many BLACK leaders and democrats making $$$$$ off of them...its more profitable to tell tyrone that he is selling drugs because of post traumatic slavery disorder and republicans than to smack his dumbass upside his head and beat the living shit out of him for poisoning his community...its more profitable for black leaders and democarts people to tell little lashanda that her having 7 kids by 7 different men at the age of 20 that she is a victim of low self esteem brought on during slavery than to lock her ass up in a room and kick the shit out of her and tell her to stop being a little 2 dollar whore lusting after material things...naaahhhh lets have 100 more years of passive, turn the other cheek when our black brothers and sisters harm us, and blame the white man/system "leadership"...there wont be 1,000 of us left...and you'll find the suave one in line at the bank cashing his fat checks...

  

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Wisdom9
Member since Sep 17th 2003
360 posts
Sun Jul-04-04 09:20 AM

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98. "RE: u cant be serious with this bullshit..."
In response to Reply # 93
Sun Jul-04-04 09:34 AM

          

LOL @ 'civil rights reenactors' (as opposed to 'civil war reenactors')

That's a great idea for a Chapelle skit....'The Civil Rights Reenactors'

...A brother sits in the front of a city bus in 2004, daring the other passengers to force him to move to the back..problem is, nobody even notices him--everybody just goes on about their business (LOL).

I'm afraid Suave has a point. I don't really disagree with all of the historical/structural arguments that the critics of Cosby's remarks are making--I'm well aware of all that.

However, the line of thinking that gives primacy to a historical/structural view of the problem is dependent upon a *moral* argument--essentially, it requires that white people are going to have to acknowledge the role that America has played in contributing to black people's predicament, and make amends.

Sadly, even the reparations activists, with all of their vitriol about the 'white man' and what he has done to us, are implicitly making themselves dependent upon that same white man, because at the end of the day, if they don't decide to *give* blacks reparations (either through judicial or legislative means), that idea is going *nowhere*. Essentially, this approach requires that you induce deep sympathy (if not guilt) in people in order to obtain the desired result.

This was the primary 'weapon' used by Dr. King and others in the Civil Rights movement to bring about change. Without the idea of moral suasion, the movement would have fallen flat on its face.

The problem with this approach in the modern context is that the ignorant/belligerent/self-destructive behavior of some of our people has enabled white America to clear its conscience when it comes to us. Our enemies are well aware of this, and this is part of the reason why our public image, projected in film, music and television, is largely that of ignorant, shiftless thugs.

I think that in the eyes of a lot of whites today, many blacks are not doing the best they can for *themselves*, even when one considers their limited means and difficult overall situation. Under these kinds of circumstances, they are unlikely to be very sympathetic to us. Keep in mind that I am well aware of the fact that the situation is much more complex than this, due to historical/structural issues, but the *perception* of whites is the key here.

I don't think that Cosby is saying that structural/historical factors are irrelevant to black people's current situation. I think that he is much too old, and has seen too much in his time, to be that naive.

I think he is saying that if we don't do what we can to straighten ourselves up as a group *first*, all of the moral arguments in the world about how we have been screwed are going to fall on deaf ears. I think that the only way that we can rectify many of the historical/structural aspects of the problem will be to *force* this nation to look at and deal with the issue, and we can't do this in our current condition, for a variety of reasons.

We cannot *force* white people to look at their history differently, or to come out of their mass denial when it comes to us and our history. However, we *can* (and should) do much, much better for *ourselves*--and I think that this is Cosby's point.

  

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wakemanifesto
Member since Dec 21st 2003
199 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 02:08 PM

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79. "suave bro..."
In response to Reply # 76


          

admit it, you have sheets and a hood in your closet at home don't you.

both conservatives and liberals have good points about the state of black people. but when i read your posts (the ones outside this topic included) your criticism and opinions are often close to hateful if not actually hating black black people.

there are definately a number of reasosn for the state of black folks today, several are systemic and several are problems with the individual. but you lean way too much to the right homie. does anybody else notice that? you either a racist white dude, or a punk bitch who was probably raised around a lot of conservative white people and thus can't find any sense of pride in being a person of color.

does anybody feel me?

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Fri Jul-02-04 02:58 PM

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85. "your 5 dollar insults dont mean shit"
In response to Reply # 79


          

you know whats funny about you clowns? you all associate the things i "hate" about the black community like our out of wedlock birth rates, dead beat fathers, AIDS/HIV, unnecessary violence, gangs, thugs, and you associate these things with "black"...but oddly enough, I praise blacks like bob johnson, oprah, colin powell, franklin raines, michael jordan, yet these praises go un-noticed. arent those folks "black"?

check yourself at the door bitch boy. i critisize behaviors that are stagnant and counter productive i dont associate these things as being "BLACK" like you do, niggas and trife hoes are not my brothers or sisters no matter how many of them are out here...quote me on that.

  

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Trinity444
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Sun Jul-04-04 08:49 AM

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96. "I feel you"
In response to Reply # 79


  

          

"activists", thats two witnesses, let it be established!

  

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Delete me
Member since Aug 27th 2002
8611 posts
Wed Jul-07-04 11:29 AM

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112. "are you a slave or what?"
In response to Reply # 74


          

Don't ask for solutions, find them yourself.

  

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the_therapist

Fri Jul-02-04 02:05 PM

  
78. "RE: Cosby"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I would have to say that I agree with Dr. Cosby. After reading many of the posts, I think that the BIGGER ISSUE that Dr.Cosby is referring to was somehow lost. He is not attacking Hip Hop. Is is only telling the truth about particular issues in the Black Community, that some of us would like to hide from. Why is it that when we (Blacks) are criticized for some of our ignorant behaviors we get upset and try to scurry around the main issue and somehow make it a race issue?

It not the "white man's" fault that we have illegitimate children running around without fathers. It's not the "whit man's" fault that there are more Black men in prison than in college. It's not the "white man's" fault that little "Shaquanda" and little "Ray Ray" are walking around at 8 years old listening to music cds and watching televison shows that are intended for adults when they should be doing homework, participating in extracurricular activities at school, reading about Black history (those things that they don't teach in schools) , or anything that is constructive.

What Dr.Cosby is saying is it's time to stop blaming everyone else for the problems in our community and making excuses for our shortcomings and look in the mirror. Where are the parents?, where are our values?, where is our sense of pride?

The Civil Right's movement and all of those involved in it have not failed. They laid the foundation for those Black CEOs, business owners, doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc. that we have today. However, we must continue to better our selves and our race. And that starts at home.

  

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Femi_Omojigijigiosetuatobalehinibode

Fri Jul-02-04 02:35 PM

  
81. "I agree with Bill 100%"
In response to Reply # 0


          

the continuing damage to our quality of life is being done by US, not the system. The system did what it wanted to do so many years ago, we are just carrying on the destructive pattern

  

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yellafella
Member since Apr 24th 2003
4424 posts
Sat Jul-03-04 06:24 PM

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92. "so do i."
In response to Reply # 81


  

          

[]

*luv ya self, believe in ya self. be true to ya self, be you for ya self, do you.

jaguar wright, self luv.

  

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Expertise
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83. "but when I hear about Cosby.."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Whether it was Constitution Hall or whatever..

I'm like, big deal.

What has he said that Thomas Sowell hasn't been saying for like three decades now. Or John McWhorter, who's wrote a book detailing this stuff only about 5 years or so ago.

Maybe I'm just too much of a contrarian. I don't see this as a big deal.
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M2
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99. "What have McWhorter & Sowell done for Blacks?"
In response to Reply # 83


          


How many millions have they given of their own money to help put Blacks through college by donating money to HBCUs?

How many charitable organizations have they started?

Did Sowell & McWhorter help a Black Entrepreneur like Bruce Llewellyn purchase and Philly Coke so that it could be kept in a predominantly Black Community, continue to employ Blacks and so that Bruce could turn it around, increase profits and employ even more Blacks in the local community?

No......that was Bill Cosby & Dr. J.

Thomas Sowell tries to make the claim that discrminatory lending doesn't exist.......

Meanwhile, blacks like Franklin Raines commission studies that not only prove that loan discrimination exists but identify ways to stop it, with the net result being that lenders come forward and straight up admit instances of wrong doing (Nissan Motor credit I'm looking at you) - AND start taking steps to correct the problem....all of which has worked to decrease the problem of loan discrepencies between Blacks & Whites of equal financial means and credit ratings.

Bill Cosby talks about specific instances of lower income Blacks hurting their own cause, doesn't say all Blacks(2/3 of all Blacks are either middle class or very close), or that there isn't any significant racism or barriers, just talks about people hurting their own cause.

If you really read his comments instead of just the media hype, you would've seen that.

The difference between Cosby, McWhorter & Sowell is that the latter two do NOTHING but spray negativity on Blacks and try to present this naieve picture that Blacks have the same exact chances to achieve that Whites Do, that there isn't any significant racism or barriers. Hell, these fools try to pretend that being born into poverty isn't a significant barrier - when that isn't true for White People......no wonder the White Poverty line hasn't had a significant decrease in over 30 years.....


Meanwhile, Cosby gives millions to help Blacks - acknowledging barriers and problems with his money, while Sowell & McWhorter do nothing.

Cosby didn't say spout that "no significant barriers" exist in his speech, he was merely roundly criticizing those who put barriers in front of themselves and shoot themselves in the foot.

He is NOT saying the same thing as Sowell & McWhorter.

Some people are contrarians for the sake of being contrarians, as they lack any other way to distinguish themselves.

Other people are contrarians because they've good at finding a better solution/method that often runs contrary to what everyone else is doing or because they don't following the mainstream world blindly.


The mere act of calling yourself a contrarian doesn't make you the second one - because a lot of people are the second.

*smirk*



Peace,








M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Wisdom9
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100. "Whoa..."
In response to Reply # 99
Mon Jul-05-04 01:00 PM

          

I've never actually read any Sowell--he actually makes the claim that discriminatory lending practices don't exist in the US?

The existence of these sorts of practices has been an established *fact* for decades--there are lots of studies showing that discriminatory lending/redlining is very, very real.

I don't even think that there is any debate about this nowadays among social scientists (I could be wrong, but I don't think so).

I hadn't exactly been tripping over myself to go down to the bookstore and get any of his stuff, but I think I'll avoid his books *completely*, in light of this information.

Man..be a conservative if that's your thing, whatever...but that's just *dishonest*.

  

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Expertise
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110. "no he doesn't."
In response to Reply # 100


  

          

He says the analysis based off of the information given by these studies are faulty, for the most part. He never said racism doesn't exist in those programs.

You have to understand; M2 reads what he wants to read, and usually halfway reads things. Ultimately; if you want to know what someone or something actually says, read it yourself. Don't go off of what someone else tells you.
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So we're thinking, okay, who would be somebody that could really shake it up? And we came up with one man. We came up with a name, folks: Donovan McNabb. Kerry-McNabb. The only problem is neither of them could carry Philadelphia." - Rush Limbaugh

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Wisdom9
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111. "Umm..."
In response to Reply # 110
Wed Jul-07-04 10:52 AM

          

thanks dude, but I don't need any lecture from you on how to investigate sources.

I was just saying that from what I have read of Sowell and McWhorter (just some op/ed-type articles over the years, no books), I'm not exactly tripping over myself to spend my money on any of their books.

I definitely know exactly who they are (McWhorter teaches at my alma mater), and where to find their books if I want them, so there's no need for you to assume that I don't know how to do this.

I view Cosby as being more sincere on the whole than McWhorter and Sowell, because he has a long and distinguished track record of supporting black education.
I can't really take these right-wing wonks like Sowell, McWhorter, Armstrong Williams, Larry Elder, etc., seriously, because I don't see the same level of dedication on their part to actually *helping* blacks, as opposed to just criticizing them. Again, I would be happy to be shown otherwise, but I just don't see the sincerity on their part, in terms of a track record in the community.

Most of these people's shtick actually seems to be designed for the consumption of right-wing whites who have *never* cared anything about the advancement of blacks, as opposed to actually trying to educate black people on how they should change.

Somehow, I don't really think that individuals like Elder or McWhorter would have the balls to lecture to a black audience and talk the kind of yang I've seen them talk in their articles. It bears repeating that Cosby's recent controversial remarks were made in front of predominantly black audiences, in both cases.

Frankly, I don't see any evidence that these black neocons are trying to actually engage the black community itself. Like I said, their comments seem to be geared more toward enabling whites (many of whom never supported the civil rights movement in the first place) to say "'See? I always knew those people were no good."

Cosby, on the other hand, has given literally tens of millions of dollars to further the cause of black education in this country, so his words carry more weight with me than all of these black neocons, who are largely the creation of white-dominated conservative organizations like the Hoover Institution and the Manhattan Institute. Maybe the neocons lack Cosby's disposable income, and thus his ability to donate tens of millions to HBCUs, but they still have a long way to go before they can show the same level of involvement and concern for black people's advancement.

I know that I have read somewhere that in the 1970s, the American right wing made a conscious decision to search for and bring forward a group of black intellectuals who could be used to counter the ideological thrust of the leaders of the civil rights movement, which had obviously gained a considerable amount of ground in the previous decade (I believe that this occurred during the Nixon administration).

The conservatives saw that they had lost the *moral* high ground in their struggle against the civil rights agenda in the 60s, so they reasoned that they needed a countervailing group of black intellectuals and policy wonks who would advocate for the right-wing agenda on race issues. This change in strategy paved the way for rise of the black neocons, such as Sowell, Shelby Steele, Ward Connerly, Elder, McWhorter, et al.

It is interesting to see that this conservative strategy has borne fruit, given the presence of a number of strongly conservative young black individuals on this board in particular. While I can appreciate that these people may feel very strongly about their political affiliations, I would encourage them to investigate the history of the rise of these black neocons. Who was it that opened the door for these people, and for what purpose? My point is that I know for a fact that the masters that these people serve actually opposed the advancement of blacks during the civil rights movement, so I am disinclined to take them seriously. They are bought and paid for by the right, just as much as Jesse Jackson or Sharpton is by the left wing.

Caveat Emptor.

  

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M2
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117. "The Idealogue of Latter day conservative thought......"
In response to Reply # 111


          

.....is one Barry Goldwater - who fought the Civil Rights act tooth and nail and was rewarded with the Presidential Nomination the following year - via Pro Segregation Dixiecrats who joined the GOP to try and put him in Office.

That's the thought base of the GOP and modern day conservative political thought.





Peace,







M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Expertise
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124. "You've got to be joking me."
In response to Reply # 117
Thu Jul-08-04 12:22 AM

  

          

That's the equivalent of saying that leftist thought was founded by Karl Marx, or FDR.

But you're that naive to believe that mess, aren't you? Individual rights, property rights, smaller government....all started with Barry Goldwater?

Good way to place your foot in your mouth, M2.
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So we're thinking, okay, who would be somebody that could really shake it up? And we came up with one man. We came up with a name, folks: Donovan McNabb. Kerry-McNabb. The only problem is neither of them could carry Philadelphia." - Rush Limbaugh

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M2
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128. "Modern - Day - Ideologue"
In response to Reply # 124


          


*chuckles*

As I've said before - you're slipping.......

Fact: The Republican & Democrat parties are vastly different now, compared to where they were prior to the Civil Rights act.

You didn't name ALL the facets of the modern day GOP - many of which were put into place by Barry.

The South was almost entirely democrat prior to the Civil Rights act - Barry's Presidential nomination was the beginning of the shift to it being a GOP stronghold.

I could go on and on and on - but it's an accepted fact amongst REPUBLICANS that Barry is their modern day idealogue, let alone those with a sound knowledge of the history of the two major political parties.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/daily/may98/goldwater30.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Goldwater

http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc0.asp?DOCID=1P1:19729717&refid=ip_almanac_hf

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/05/29/goldwater.obit/

http://usconservatives.about.com/library/weekly/aa072300a.htm?once=true&

Took me about 3 minutes on google to find plenty of documentation to support my claim.

Arguing with you is like shooting fish in a barrel.........with a rocket launcher.



M2


The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Expertise
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132. "but you're assuming..."
In response to Reply # 128


  

          

That all conservatives are Republicans, or they even vote lockstep with the republican party.

They aren't and they don't. In fact, a good number of them are independents or libertarians.

Speaking of the South, the South is still predominantly Democrat. Now sure...they generally vote Republican during the presidential election, but that's just ONE election.

For example, in North Carolina, they've only had 2 Republican governors since Reconstruction - one in 1976 and another in 1984. The rest have been Democrat. Same with Georgia, in which Sonny Perdue was elected in 2002 as the first Republican governor since Reconstruction. And its the same way for most Southern states. So while Southerners voted Republican in presidential elections, they still voted - and still do vote - Democrat in everything else.

Even your premise that Barry's campaign run initially helped to make the South a GOP stronghold is wrong. Even in 1960 if it wasn't for JFK choosing Johnson, he would have lost a number of states in the south...and would have lost the election. Therefore, it must not have been that much of a Democratic stronghold, if he needed a Southerner on his ticket in order to win a number of Southern states.

And since he was facing an opponent who was the Republican vice president of the U.S. in elections that won significant states in the South before Goldwater's campaign, and then went on to win the presidency with a number of states in the South AFTER Goldwater's campaign. So, if Republicans were winning Southern states before and after Goldwater, how can you say that it was his campaign that led the South to be a Republican stronghold? In 1976 Democrat Jimmy Carter carried ALL of the South to win the election and become president.

But hey....the South was a GOP stronghold after Goldwater's campaign, right? Amazing...considering he only carried 5 states in the South himself.

The GOP stronghold on the South started with Reagan, winning both elections in the 80's big, along with the Democrats placing more leftist candidates on the ticket. In truth, it was the significant change the Democrats went through, with McGovern in 72 and Carter in 76 and 80, that initially started the change in the South. Had the Democrats not become a party that eventually turned completely left, the GOP probably still wouldn't win solid majorities in the South.

While Barry did help to change the Republican Party from a national level and some of his principles did resound from Reagan (who was conservative and Republican before Goldwater's campaign or the Civil Rights Movement, I might add), that doesn't equal out to him being the "modern-day ideologue" and the basis of conservative thought, because it implies 1. that there weren't any conservatives that thought similar to him before he came on the scene, which is false and 2. The Dixiecrats have been able to secure the South ever since for the GOP, which is incorrect as well.

But hey, continue to believe you're shooting fishes with rocket launchers. You're only shooting yourself in the foot.
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"Are you saying there's no qualified black Democrats out there to be veep? I mean, he didn't even consider them. I mean 94% of the black population votes for the Democrat candidate every four years, and no black leaders were even demanding it! They weren't even demanding it.

So we're thinking, okay, who would be somebody that could really shake it up? And we came up with one man. We came up with a name, folks: Donovan McNabb. Kerry-McNabb. The only problem is neither of them could carry Philadelphia." - Rush Limbaugh

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M2
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135. "Weak - At Best"
In response to Reply # 132


          


1. I used the word MODERN conservative thought, primarily as it relates to the GOP. The fact that you keep ignoring the word MODERN and reshaping the GOP over the last 40 years nullifies your argument.

2. Mentioning JFK's election is idiotic since Barry hadn't run for president yet, nor has the south's shift to the GOP begun.

3. Southern Dixiecrat/Democrat voters began voting GOP after the civil rights act was signed, in fact, Lyndon Johnson said that the civil rights act was the end of Democrat power in the SOuth.

4. One of the reasons that Barry didn't win more southern states in his run for president was because the nation was mourning JFK. That being said, he still won five.

5. Barry's presidential nomination was powered by southern voters switching to the GOP from the Democrat parties, in fact, Barry used to be a Democrat - so was Strom Thurman. This transition culminated with Reagan.

6. Yes, Democrats get elected down south too - but in overall, it's still a GOP stronghold and is significantly more conservative than it was prior to Barry, for the simple fact that it was nearly impossible prior to Barry's run for president for a Republican to get any votes down south.

Nor does it change the fact that Democrats vs. Republicans used to be divided more along North vs. South lines than Conservative vs. Liberal lines. As they were conservatives and liberals in both parties.

You're reaching and failing - as you haven't really countered a single thing I said in the LAST post.



M2


The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Expertise
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143. "ha."
In response to Reply # 135


  

          

First of all, you said Goldwater was "Ideologue of modern-day conservative thought". You didn't "primarily" make any kind of distinction. Then you stated that he was the one who initially turned the South into a GOP stronghold, which I showed you was false then and for the most part still is false today.

JFK's election showed that the Democrats did not have a stronghold on the South as you said they did previously in presidential elections. If they did, then there wouldn't have been a need to get Johnson as a running mate. And several political analysts have stated that Kennedy needed Johnson in order to get enough support in the South to win the election.

Johnson may have said the Civil Rights Act would cause the Democrats to lose the South, but he died three years before he could see Jimmy Carter win the 1976 election by taking every single Southern state.

Even then, Barry's influence within the GOP in the 70's was more of a demagogue than anything. Nixon and Ford were considered moderates, and not close to conservative as Goldwater or his followers. Only until Carter proved to be a failure was the GOP or really anyone in the country was about to allow a Goldwater-type conservative become a political power.

The South has ALWAYS been more conservative than the North. The reason why the Republicans never got a foothold in the South before Reagan was due to the continued animosity due to the Civil War and Reconstruction, where the U.S. government forced Republican governors into the rebel states.

The fact that you would sit here and state the South is more conservative now than it was in the past - with states rights (which had been a issue since well before the civil war. It didn't start with Goldwater or the Civil Rights Movement), the belief that states had the right to the nullification of Supreme Court decisions (see Andrew Jackson), secession, resisting union creations in the late 1800's - today, the fact that many were skeptical of the growth of government well before then....shows you have absolutely no clue of what you're talking about.

But hey, keep thinking what I'm saying is "weak". Maybe one day you'll believe it.
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"Are you saying there's no qualified black Democrats out there to be veep? I mean, he didn't even consider them. I mean 94% of the black population votes for the Democrat candidate every four years, and no black leaders were even demanding it! They weren't even demanding it.

So we're thinking, okay, who would be somebody that could really shake it up? And we came up with one man. We came up with a name, folks: Donovan McNabb. Kerry-McNabb. The only problem is neither of them could carry Philadelphia." - Rush Limbaugh

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M2
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144. "RE: ha."
In response to Reply # 143
Sat Jul-10-04 09:57 AM

          

>First of all, you said Goldwater was "Ideologue of
>modern-day conservative thought". You didn't "primarily"
>make any kind of distinction. Then you stated that he was
>the one who initially turned the South into a GOP
>stronghold, which I showed you was false then and for the
>most part still is false today.

Do conservatives who consider themselves libertarians still primarily vote GOP?

Aren't conservatives who don't consider themselves republicans constitute a small minority of conservatives?

Weren't many of those conservatives influenced by Barry?

The answers to all of those questions is yes.

Pointing out a semantical error doesn't weaken my argument. It is not at all uncommon for people to use the words GOP and Conservative or Liberal & Democrat interchangeably........you make the same mistake yourself in this very post.

So trying to use semantics to win this argumeng rings very hollow.

My point with respect to Goldwater becoming a modern day idealogue for the GOP (and other conservatives at that) - still stands.

Furthermore, why is that every source I mentioned, many of whom were FAVORABLE to GOldwater/Conservatives in general - point to Goldwater as turning the south into a GOP stronghold?

Well?

But let's look at numbers:

2004 Governors:

http://www.rga.org/files/2004-05%20Governor%20Party%20Control%20-%20UPDATE%20BIG1.jpg

Granted - most states have GOP Governors nowadays.

Still - if you look at the deep south - they all have GOP Governors (Except LA) -

If you look at the map overall - it depends on what you count as the South.......

Okalahoma and West Virginia are Midwest to me - so I see 12 southern states - or 8/12 having GOP Governors or you can include them and make it 8/14 - depends on how you slice it - although it doesn't prove much because you'd really need to look at Congressmen and Senators since most states have GOP Governors nowadays by a 28 to 22 Majority.

Presidential Elections - GOP Candidates typically win Southern States - which wasn't the case prior to ole Barry Goldwater - Carter can be chalked up as an anomoly.

In 1996 - http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/fe1996/map1.htm

Dole did fairly well down south and in the midwest too - which on an idealogical basis is very similar to the south. If you break it down along Civil War Lines - the South voted GOP and the North voted Democrat.

That wouldn't have been the case prior to 1964.....

The South is where the GOP gets the majority of its votes as far as Presidential Elections, from an area that say 60 years ago wouldn't vote Republican.

You don't think cats like Jesse Helms jumped ship to the GOP for fun do you?

>JFK's election showed that the Democrats did not have a
>stronghold on the South as you said they did previously in
>presidential elections. If they did, then there wouldn't
>have been a need to get Johnson as a running mate. And
>several political analysts have stated that Kennedy needed
>Johnson in order to get enough support in the South to win
>the election.

Democrats vs. Republicans wasn't as clear cut was it was back then, which makes the JFK reference irrelevant.

Both parties had a conservative southern faction and a more liberal northern faction.

Goldwater is credited with wresting the GOP away from its northeastern faction.

As far as the Civil Rights act goes....

http://www.congresslink.org/civil/essay.html

"Democrats supported it 152-96. It is interesting to note that Democrats from northern states voted overwhelmingly for the bill, 141 to 4, while Democrats from southern states voted overwhelmingly against the bill, 92 to 11"

Obviously, Northern Democrats & Southern Democrats were very different.

It's illogical to lump them all together as democrats.

JFK picking Johnson was in many ways analogous to say Kerry considering McCain as a running mate - in order to appeal to both conservatives and liberals.

>Johnson may have said the Civil Rights Act would cause the
>Democrats to lose the South, but he died three years before
>he could see Jimmy Carter win the 1976 election by taking
>every single Southern state.

But he was alive to see Nixon use a "Southern Strategy" to win every state that was a member of the old confederacy except Texas. That election was called the "re-aligning" election as Nixon won states that were typically won by Democrats.

He was also alive to see Goldwater win five states that were all in the deep south.

Nixon leaving office in disgrace was more the reason that Carter won, than anything else.

Plus, Carter was a southerner - every Democrat President since JFK has been a southerner, it's not a coincidence.


>Even then, Barry's influence within the GOP in the 70's was
>more of a demagogue than anything. Nixon and Ford were
>considered moderates, and not close to conservative as
>Goldwater or his followers. Only until Carter proved to be
>a failure was the GOP or really anyone in the country was
>about to allow a Goldwater-type conservative become a
>political power.

Than we had Reagon, George Sr. & George Jr.

Lot's of modern day conservative thought that is "Goldwater-esque"

As it is - the sources I provided were supporting my claim and were from conservative viewpoints.


>The South has ALWAYS been more conservative than the North.
>The reason why the Republicans never got a foothold in the
>South before Reagan was due to the continued animosity due
>to the Civil War and Reconstruction, where the U.S.
>government forced Republican governors into the rebel
>states.
>
>The fact that you would sit here and state the South is more
>conservative now than it was in the past - with states
>rights (which had been a issue since well before the civil
>war. It didn't start with Goldwater or the Civil Rights
>Movement), the belief that states had the right to the
>nullification of Supreme Court decisions (see Andrew
>Jackson), secession, resisting union creations in the late
>1800's - today, the fact that many were skeptical of the
>growth of government well before then....shows you have
>absolutely no clue of what you're talking about.

You completely missed the point and have just used GOP & Conservative interchangeably the same mistake I made earlier........

I never said the south is more conservative now - I said the south is now a GOP stronghold and became that way after Goldwater's run for president was the impetus for it. Even if it did take several years to come to past.

Southerners now vote overwhelmingly for the GOP - which was unheard of 50 years ago as they voted Democrat back then - only they were voting Conservative Democrats.

The South has always been more conservative than the North, they just vote for conservatives in a different party now - a party they used to hate.

I think you're not even factoring in how different the parties were prior to the Civil Rights act being signed - as each party had siginificant liberal and conservative factions and were more aligned along North vs. South lines, than the Conservative vs. Liberal lines they are now.

So perhaps it is you (as usual) who doesn't know what he's talking about.

Care to tell me how Global Crossing is a bigger Bankruptcy than Enron, but people are just making a big deal over the latter because of Bush?





M2



The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Expertise
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123. "RE: Umm..."
In response to Reply # 111


  

          

Like what?

Both of them have op/eds online, and an extensive archive as well (Well Sowell and others do...I dunno about McWhorter, or how often he writes op/eds). Show me which one was written and designed to make black people look bad in front of white people.

Besides, this is one of the points made towards Cosby after Constitution Hall. No one wants him to say the things he said because it might give white people fodder. And Cosby said big deal and let them think what they want to think. Everyone is worried about the image of black people instead of the substance of black people.
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My politics and sports blog .

"Are you saying there's no qualified black Democrats out there to be veep? I mean, he didn't even consider them. I mean 94% of the black population votes for the Democrat candidate every four years, and no black leaders were even demanding it! They weren't even demanding it.

So we're thinking, okay, who would be somebody that could really shake it up? And we came up with one man. We came up with a name, folks: Donovan McNabb. Kerry-McNabb. The only problem is neither of them could carry Philadelphia." - Rush Limbaugh

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Wisdom9
Member since Sep 17th 2003
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Thu Jul-08-04 06:19 AM

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125. "You're missing my point..."
In response to Reply # 123


          

which is that this criticism *does not* apply to Cosby, in my mind, because he has demonstrated his interest in promoting education among black people for many years now. I don't question the intentions behind his comments, based on his *record* in the community.

The black neocons, on the other hand, seem to spend much of their time spreading their message among conservative whites (many of whom never gave a shit about our advancement in the first place).

I don't know of any of these people doing lecture tours in *black* communites trying to spread their message. However, I know that they talk all of their yang about blacks to white audiences in lecture format, as well as on conservative radio shows. My point was that if these neocons had a long history of *service* to the black community, I would tend to take them more seriously. As it stands, they just appear to be the creation of white conservative think tanks and foundations.

As I said before, it is a historical fact that these black neocons were essentially created by the right-wing, in order to serve their agenda on race issues by using a black face to push conservative rhetoric.

For example, the gutting of affirmative action policies in the University of California system in the 90s would have been much more difficult without a black individual such as Ward Connerly to head up the movement. The people who sponsored Connerly and made him the figurehead of that movement were most definitely white, but they understood that they wouldn't be able to claim the moral high ground if a white person were to head up the movement. Their strategy worked to perfection. This is a prime example of the way that white conservatives have used these black neocons to further their own long-term interests.

The conservatives had wanted to kill affirmative action in the UC system for 30 years, but they finallly realized they needed a black figurehead (Connerly) in order to obtain their objective. If a white individual had headed up the movement, it would have been completely transparent--the general public would have been able to see much more clearly what was actually going on, and who was behind it.

The black neocons are used as a Trojan Horse--they allow the white conservative establishment to obtain their goals through subterfuge. They tried frontal resistance to the advancement of blacks during the 60s, and they got their asses kicked. To their credit, however, they learned from their mistakes--thus the advent of the ne(gr)ocons.

  

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Expertise
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131. "No I didn't."
In response to Reply # 125


  

          

You're trying to make a distinction between the two supposedly based on intentions. And I'm saying what does intentions have to do with the basis of their arguments? Either those arguments are right, or they're wrong. What their "intentions" are for making the argument is irrelevant.

As for their audience, that's mainly because it's only conservative audiences that will listen. Most black people just make assumptions of what they're saying and never try to thoroughly read or listen to what they have to say. And considering very few of them do lecture circuits to begin with (the most they do is an occasional speech or book interview), it kind of defeats the purpose. But I doubt if any have placed "whites only" signs on the auditoriums they speak in.

Besides, with portrayals like yours, it's seems like a mountain climb just to get a significantly black audience. The "right-wing" created black conservatives? You make them sound like Frankenstein-like robots. Where are these "historical facts" that supposedly created them?

Now, I'm sure Ward Connerly was supported by white conservatives as well as black in his causes to eliminate affirmative action in Cali. However, how does this differ from the NAACP being supported by communists and socialists, even having white presidents up until the 1960's? According to your logic, black leftists were created by the far left too?

Did that mean Connerly and others never REALLY want to see an end to affirmative action...that they were just paid to be frontmen to do so?

Yeah right.

As long as you and others try to label political ideologies based solely on racial polarization the black community will continue to suffer not only through the travails of a bloc group being taken for granted in elections but also because of close-mindedness due to social issues regarding the community as well. The misinformation of some supposed right-wing conspiracy in regards to black conservatives won't help any of us to prosper.
__________________________
My politics and sports blog .

"Are you saying there's no qualified black Democrats out there to be veep? I mean, he didn't even consider them. I mean 94% of the black population votes for the Democrat candidate every four years, and no black leaders were even demanding it! They weren't even demanding it.

So we're thinking, okay, who would be somebody that could really shake it up? And we came up with one man. We came up with a name, folks: Donovan McNabb. Kerry-McNabb. The only problem is neither of them could carry Philadelphia." - Rush Limbaugh

_________________________
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Wisdom9
Member since Sep 17th 2003
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Fri Jul-09-04 09:40 AM

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139. "Oh brother...."
In response to Reply # 131
Fri Jul-09-04 10:08 AM

          

>>"You're trying to make a distinction between the two supposedly based on intentions. And I'm saying what does intentions have to do with the basis of their arguments? Either those arguments are right, or they're wrong. What their "intentions" are for making the argument is irrelevant."

My criticism of these people does not rest on my being able to intuit their 'intentions'. I'm talking about their *record* of actually engaging with black people themselves. Most of these black neocons have no real record of service to the community to stand on when they make all of these statements. I just see them spewing a lot of vitriolic rhetoric, with no background in terms of trying to do anything constructive.

When these people spend all of their time talking, with no record of implementation or service to the community, their words ring hollow. If they have such a problem with the way that black people are living today, why don't they spend time in the community trying to create solutions, instead of spending their time talking to white conservatives (many of whom have been openly hostile to the advancement of blacks in the past)?

The answer to this is that the white conservative foundations who have made these individuals into 'experts' and 'pundits' actually have no real interest in improving the lot of blacks. Their purpose is served merely by having these individuals with black skin make vitriolic statements that validate the beliefs of white conservatives.

The juxtaposition that you are making between Cosby's comments and the rhetoric of the black neocons is false and superficial. Cosby is critical, as are the neocons, but that is where the similarity ends. There are a lot of things that the neocons are saying that have nothing to do with Cosby's statements--the simple fact that they both have criticisms of certain aspects of black American culture does not make them the *same*.

As I said before, one of the main differences is that Cosby has a record of genuine service and philanthropy in the black community that none of the ne(gr)ocons can touch. As far as I can see, they're just running their mouths in order to make white conservatives feel good.

>>"As for their audience, that's mainly because it's only conservative audiences that will listen. Most black people just make assumptions of what they're saying and never try to thoroughly read or listen to what they have to say."

Hmm...this is a very patronizing statement. I'm not sure how you know what 'most black people' think about these matters. So, you think you are somehow magically able to think about these things in a more clear-headed way than 'most black people'? (LOL)

This type of patronizing attitude is one of the main reasons why most black people don't pay attention to black conservatives.

You are making a reckless assertion about the views of black people on these matters, which is contradicted by the fact that many blacks *have* listened to what Cosby has said, and many people in the community do indeed agree with the substance of his remarks.

The *reason* why Cosby is taken seriously by blacks (and the black neocons are not) is that he has *shown* that he wants to do something to improve the situation. The neocons haven't proven that they want to do anything other than talking yang about blacks to predominantly white conservative audiences.

If these individuals are really sincere about improving the situation of blacks, they obviously aren't going to have an impact on the problem by directing their message toward a white conservative audience. (LOL)

It is a bit much for you to argue that the reason why they do this is that black people lack the rational faculties to evaluate the merits of their message.

The reason for the difference in the reception of Cosby's comments, versus those of the neocons, can be reduced to one word: credibility. Cosby has it, based on his record--and the neocons don't.


>> "And considering very few of them do lecture circuits to begin with (the most they do is an occasional speech or book interview), it kind of defeats the purpose. But I doubt if any have placed "whites only" signs on the auditoriums they speak in."

I didn't suggest they prohibited blacks from coming to their speaking engagements. My point is that if, in fact, these people were genuinely trying to remedy the problems in the black community, they would go *out of their way* to engage blacks directly, so as to have an impact *on the actual problem*.

The fact that they do not do this is a clear indication that, unlike Cosby, they are not really interested in doing anything constructive about the problem. Their purpose is merely to throw stones, and validate the views of their white conservative sponsors.

>>"Now, I'm sure Ward Connerly was supported by white conservatives as well as black in his causes to eliminate affirmative action in Cali.

Did that mean Connerly and others never REALLY want to see an end to affirmative action...that they were just paid to be frontmen to do so? "

Connerly's sincerity (or lack therof) is irrelevant to my point. My point is that the people who put the money and resources behind that movement were white--but they specifically recruited Connerly to their cause for tactical and strategic reasons.

Connerly wasn't just a 'participant' in that controversy, he was the primary public face of the movement--and this was not an accident or a coincidence. The white conservatives who were the real muscle behind the initiative knew that they would have a *lot* more trouble if they made a white person the pointman.

Connerly was portrayed as this 'noble' black individual who was compelled to participate in that movement for reasons of conscience alone. The fact is that the man was specifically recruited by white conservatives, because they knew that they needed a minority face to push their message in order to have a shot at victory. A white man saying the same thing as Connerly would have created a very negative image for the movement, and they were well aware of this.

The ironic thing is that Connerly was supposedly against giving special privileges to people because of their race, but the only reason that he was chosen to head up that movement was that he was a black guy who was prominent in the UC administration, which meant that he could be used as a Trojan Horse by white conservatives.

I *guarantee* you that he wasn't the progenitor or the primary sponsor of that movement--so why was he the pointman? The answer is obvious.

Also, if you think that Connerly wasn't well compensated for the hatchet job that he did on AA in the UC system by wealthy conservative alumni of UC, you are naive. He gave them the victory that they had been gunning for for 30 years. I'm sure he has been well taken care of.

>> "The "right-wing" created black conservatives? You make them sound like Frankenstein-like robots. Where are these "historical facts" that supposedly created them?"

It's not a secret that these people were brought to prominence for the specific purpose of promoting the white conservative agenda on race issues--to this day, most of them have links with conservative think-tanks like the Manhattan Institute and the Hoover Institution. Many, if not most of them owe significant parts of their livelihood to white conservative donors and foundations. They are bought and paid for.

You don't have to look very far into these people's backgrounds to see that they wouldn't be where they are today without financial support from these conservative donors and foundations. They certainly have no background or record in terms of advocating for blacks, or implementing any approaches to black develeopment or advancement.

>>"However, how does this differ from the NAACP being supported by communists and socialists, even having white presidents up until the 1960's? According to your logic, black leftists were created by the far left too?"

In point of fact, black civil rights activists *have* been heavily influenced by white leftist groups and donors (including Dr. King and his movement, NAACP, SNCC, The Urban League, etc.)--and this influence continues up until today. Much like the black neocons, the influence of the white leftists on the civil rights movement has manifested in the form of white sponsorship, and in the presence of whites in the upper administration of many of these so-called 'black' organizations.

Indeed, many of the shortcomings of these organizations can be traced to the fact that black people oftentimes were *not* the ones who were making they key decisions about the strategy and tactics of the movement (they still aren't, in many respects). These left wing white sponsors had their *own* reasons for being involved, as well as their own agenda, and ultimately their money and influence were the determining factor in the direction of many aspects of the movement.

This is no secret to anybody that knows anything at all about the history of the civil rights movement. Sounds like you need to read some Harold Cruse (LOL).

What you fail to understand is that the white conservative movement recruited the black neocons *in response* to the successful strategy of left wing groups that had previously recruited and influenced black civil rights leaders in a similar manner. It was an adjustment that was made after the defeat of the right wing agenda in the civil rights battles of the 60s.

The conservatives eventually realized that they would never regain the moral high ground on the race issue until they found some blacks that they could use to push their agenda. The black neocons confer a level of legitimacy to the white conservative agenda on race that a white advocate of the same policies could never achieve.

The white liberal establishment, in certain respects, does indeed 'own' the black civil rights leaders, ministers, etc.--but wealthy white conservatives have the same relationship to the black neocons.

>>"As long as you and others try to label political ideologies based solely on racial polarization the black community will continue to suffer not only through the travails of a bloc group being taken for granted in elections but also because of close-mindedness due to social issues regarding the community as well. The misinformation of some supposed right-wing conspiracy in regards to black conservatives won't help any of us to prosper."

I'm not positing any 'right-wing conspiracy'. How can something be a conspiracy when it is right out in the open? (LOL) The relationship of the ne(gr)ocons to their conservative masters is hardly a secret. People are bought and sold all the time in politics--what do you think political advocacy and lobbying *is*? (Hello...).

You are operating on the false premise that I am some kind of blind follower of the left, and the black civil rights establishment. You are making a lot of wild assumptions that are not based on anything in my posts.

I am surprised at your apparent ignorance of the dynamic that has given rise to the black neocons, given that you are a black conservative. I would definitely recommend that you do some research into the backgrounds of the ne(gr)ocons, and the history of white influence on black political movements in the U.S. in general.

  

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jhewg
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Wed Jul-28-04 10:08 AM

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152. "Well said..."
In response to Reply # 139


  

          

You've given me a lot of homework, brah.

"Don't hang up on Karl
Malone!"

"To Monty!" -Chandler Jerrell

  

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M2
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115. "Actually Expertise.........."
In response to Reply # 110


          

.........it was about Late 2001/early 2002, I mentioned that people like Sowell love to claim that a problem doesn't exist, yet, they'll benefit from those acknowledging its existence and working to fix it.

I used Loan Discrimination as an example.

YOU said that Sowell debunked Loan Discrimination a long time ago and that it doesn't matter as he's wealthy and elderly and won't need to buy another house.

I responded that Sowell must be rather ignorant of the loan industry, as at the time, I was re-engineering the software a Bank used to orginate loans.

You responded with your usual about Sowell's economic papers - which I retorted meant nothing, as I'm talking about a particular industry that Sowell had shown himself to be ignorant of.

Perhaps it's your perceptions that are "selective"

Perhaps you should come back with something cogent as opposed to "M2 read what he wants to read".

I'll dissect your "new story" as well:

If someone is trying to debunk a study as "flawed" that means that they're saying that it's conclusions are flawed as well.

Meaning that Sowell was trying to discount the phenomenon of Loan Discrimination.

Thing is - it's a fact that it's not at all uncommon for a Black Person with excellent credit and twice the income of a White person with a lower credit score, to only be able to qualify for the same loan (even if he has more collateral/a larger downpayment).

So even if Sowell did find a study that was flawed, others were dead on - so why was he focusing on the flawed ones, when the basic idea was still 100% true.

What was his objective?

Was he just in the business of pointing out flawed methodologies? If so, why not contrast with the ones that were acurrate?


Well?




M2


The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Expertise
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122. "once again..."
In response to Reply # 115


  

          

you only read what you want to read.

You stated loan discrimination, in which I stated that Sowell has written and debunked many assumptions about loan discrimination.

I never gave you any information about it, because it written in detail in one of his books that I didn't have on hand.

Of course, you never read anything he stated about it. You just assumed that because I stated he disputed the analysis on loan distribution that he was apologizing for racists. For all you know, he could have said that every white lender is a racist.

If you never read or heard anything about what someone says on an issue, don't make assumptions on what they are saying.
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"Are you saying there's no qualified black Democrats out there to be veep? I mean, he didn't even consider them. I mean 94% of the black population votes for the Democrat candidate every four years, and no black leaders were even demanding it! They weren't even demanding it.

So we're thinking, okay, who would be somebody that could really shake it up? And we came up with one man. We came up with a name, folks: Donovan McNabb. Kerry-McNabb. The only problem is neither of them could carry Philadelphia." - Rush Limbaugh

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M2
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129. "Please"
In response to Reply # 122
Thu Jul-08-04 04:35 PM

          


Stop trying to change your argument.

You said that Sowell debunked loan discrimination, pure and simple.

I call you on how idiotic that idea is and now you're saying that he just said that certain studies were flawed.

I crush that one and now it's, "well, he just said certain assumptions"

I have an idea for you, figure out which one it is and get back to me.

The way things you look now, you're doing one of the following:

1. Trying to change your story because you can't win the argument.

2. Trying to figure out how to get out of having gotten caught misquoting someone to win an argument.

3. Are avoiding just going and getting the exact text which you claim that is out there, but that no one knows and no one can talk about because you know that will get shot down too.

If I was truly "mis-reading" all you had to do was to just get the damn text and quote it here, something that is VERY easy to do.

But you've done nothing but back pedal.

Wonder why.

I'll do it for you - Sowell claimed that loan discrimination was virtually nonexistant after looking at one study done by the Boston Federal Reserve that he claimed didn't factor in credit histories, net worth, income and the size of the loan.

Thing is - there are dozens of studies that prove that loan discrimination IS alive and well - that DID factor in Credit History, Income, Net Worth, etc.

After all, many studies have shown that a Black Man with double the income, better credit and a higher networth than a White Man with 1/2 the income & worse credit, will get the same loan as that White Man.

Looks like ole' Sowell is guilty of the same intellectual dishonesty or lack of due dilligence that he accussed others of.

I guess he also missed the part where it was shown that the best way to reduce loan discrimination is to have more Blacks in Mgt. (as opposed to loan officers) as the people originating the loans have less fear that they'll face any repermands.

Automated credit scoring helps too.



-M2


The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Expertise
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133. "RE: Please"
In response to Reply # 129


  

          

I'm not changing anything. I said he debunked many theories on loan discrimination.

The only argument here is whether or not Sowell or I said there was no racism in lending programs, and neither of us said that. I did say, however, that Sowell stated the prevailing analysis is faulty and racism does not explain every sort of gap within lending demographics.

It's real simple; go find out what he has to say about it, or don't. Until you do so, you're only assuming you know what he's saying, when you really don't.
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"Are you saying there's no qualified black Democrats out there to be veep? I mean, he didn't even consider them. I mean 94% of the black population votes for the Democrat candidate every four years, and no black leaders were even demanding it! They weren't even demanding it.

So we're thinking, okay, who would be somebody that could really shake it up? And we came up with one man. We came up with a name, folks: Donovan McNabb. Kerry-McNabb. The only problem is neither of them could carry Philadelphia." - Rush Limbaugh

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M2
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136. "*shakes head*"
In response to Reply # 133


          


I know what he said, he claimed that loan discrimination is virtually nonexistant after adjusting for credit history, net worth, income and loan size - he based this on his analysis of a study done by the Boston Federal Reserve.

However, there are literally dozens of studies that DO adjust for these things and find significant loan discrimination. The current belief in loan discrimination is based on the idea that the minority has a harder time getting a loan than a LESSER qualified white applicant.

If I was truly "wrong" - you would just get the facts yourself and just prove it, instead you just keep spinning things.

You've totally missed the fact that I was toying with you the whole time, just to see if you would:

1. Get the data yourself and try to spin it to prove me wrong.

2. Be a man and just admit your boy was off the mark

3. Continue to try and spin a response even when it's obvious that you know you're wrong.

Hell, you can't even articulate what Sowell said with regards to loan discrimination in the first place.



M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Expertise
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109. "What have you done?"
In response to Reply # 99


  

          

That's a stupid retort...trying to dimish their statements based on a nonexistent standard of what you think someone should do or be doing.

This is precisely the reason why we are in the situations that Cosby was talking about - Ignoring what's being said because you don't like who's saying it. This isn't something new, or something that was just went unlooked. This has been seen and documented for over three decades. But whomever actually stated the downturn of intellectualism and moral standing within the black community has been depicted as a sellout or a racist...and when by the time someone actually goes above the line to address the problem, like Cosby does, it's generally too late for the ones that are going through these things today.

Until someone with a celebrity profile starts yelling about it, nothing gets done, and things get worse. That's truly why Cosby is making these rants; everyone else is too afraid to do so or the ones that are saying it are being ignored.

Now, does that mean he's speaking for Sowell or McWhorter, or others that have stated the same thing (Williams, Moynihan, Thernstrom, Brown, etc)? No. But it does state that he is seeing some of the same things they see. And the problems are getting too noticeable and too great for people to just ignore based on flimsy excuses, like the one you gave.
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"Are you saying there's no qualified black Democrats out there to be veep? I mean, he didn't even consider them. I mean 94% of the black population votes for the Democrat candidate every four years, and no black leaders were even demanding it! They weren't even demanding it.

So we're thinking, okay, who would be somebody that could really shake it up? And we came up with one man. We came up with a name, folks: Donovan McNabb. Kerry-McNabb. The only problem is neither of them could carry Philadelphia." - Rush Limbaugh

_________________________
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M2
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116. "Please/Read My Sig File"
In response to Reply # 109


          


My signature file VERY clearly states my position on Blacks and wealth building, most of my posts talk about the things Blacks can do for themselves, or the things they do that run contrary to their financial interests.

Furthermore, I agree with what Cosby said and I'm hardly someone who complains about the man keeping him down or doesn't believe that Blacks can be successful in this country.

After all - have you been paying attention for the last four years?

The point of my post was that Cosby operates in a different context than Sowell and your beloved conservative race pimps.

Cosby has illustrated via giving away millions that he's dedicated to helping those that can't themselves, he believes in barriers and that people need help.

Something the pimpsters do not - hell, they often deride those who give to charity.

E.g. Even if they say similar things at times, they're hardly coming from the same place, have the same intent or the same belief system.

After all - I agree with Cosby, and you'd never call me a Sowell lover.

Dig?

The point (again) since you missed it: Is that Cosby & the Conservative Race Pimps are hardly cut from the same cloth.

Now, unlike you, I'll answer the question you posed instead of ducking it, because I can't answer it:

-When I ran my web design firm I gave a 35% discount to Black Entrepreneurs.

-To this day, I'll give greatly discounted or free advice to any Black Entrepreneurs I come accross.

-I make an effort to mentor the younger or less experienced Blacks I come accross at work, because I know that mentoring and career development aren't things corporate america spends enough time doing for it's employees and that it puts Blacks at a particular disadvantage.

-Most of the posts I make on this board are aimed at educating people about managing their money, business and building wealth. In fact, I've helped people on this board work through the purchase of their first home.

Cuz I'm a nice guy, I'll help you respond:

Saying: "Look at me, I'm a Black Conservative" doesn't constitute helping Black People.

Well - since most of your posts are designed to elevate your fragile Ego by telling the world that you're a "contrarian" - I guess you're helping one Black Person. LOL



M2



The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Expertise
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Wed Jul-07-04 11:56 PM

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121. "I didn't duck anything."
In response to Reply # 116
Wed Jul-07-04 11:57 PM

  

          

This subject isn't about the "intent", although you nor I know what either Sowell or McWhorter intends in regards to the advancement of black people (all you're saying is what you THINK they intend). The question is whether these things were known before Cosby said something about them, and no doubt they were.

Just because someone actually gives a bunch of money to charity and the like, while noble, does not all of a sudden make them a credible authority to fixing a problem within that sphere. Cosby could give a billion dollars to education programs, but that doesn't mean he's more credible than actual educators that have been working with the system; one of them, I might add, that has been for a span of 5 different decades.

So "intent" is irrelevant. Intent does not necessarily produce results. If that was the case, communism would actually work. Nor do you know what they truly intend.

And you, of all people, actually commenting on someone else's ego? Ha. You got a nerve.

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"Are you saying there's no qualified black Democrats out there to be veep? I mean, he didn't even consider them. I mean 94% of the black population votes for the Democrat candidate every four years, and no black leaders were even demanding it! They weren't even demanding it.

So we're thinking, okay, who would be somebody that could really shake it up? And we came up with one man. We came up with a name, folks: Donovan McNabb. Kerry-McNabb. The only problem is neither of them could carry Philadelphia." - Rush Limbaugh

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M2
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Thu Jul-08-04 03:59 PM

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127. "*Searches in Vain for a Cogent Statement*"
In response to Reply # 121


          

>This subject isn't about the "intent", although you nor I
>know what either Sowell or McWhorter intends in regards to
>the advancement of black people (all you're saying is what
>you THINK they intend). The question is whether these
>things were known before Cosby said something about them,
>and no doubt they were.
>
>Just because someone actually gives a bunch of money to
>charity and the like, while noble, does not all of a sudden
>make them a credible authority to fixing a problem within
>that sphere. Cosby could give a billion dollars to
>education programs, but that doesn't mean he's more credible
>than actual educators that have been working with the
>system; one of them, I might add, that has been for a span
>of 5 different decades.
>
>So "intent" is irrelevant. Intent does not necessarily
>produce results. If that was the case, communism would
>actually work. Nor do you know what they truly intend.

I was talking about context, I was talking about the actions AND words of the men being discussed - intent was only a part of it and you missed the boat there as well.

I was discussing how one man's actions reveal him to be someone who offers solutions along with criticism.

While others only offer criticism and don't act at all with respect to trying to advance things.

You've inadvertantly come back to my original statement - What have Sowell & McWhorter done that should make me believe that they speak in the same CONTEXT as Cosby?

Zero.

Cosby's actions reveal the end game of his intentions.

McWhorter & Sowell's actions don't.

E.g. You can't lump them in the same boat as they're really saying different things when you look at the sum total of their words and actions.



>And you, of all people, actually commenting on someone
>else's ego? Ha. You got a nerve.

Completely missed the point (again) -

Your posts aren't designed to offer anything constructive, engage anyone in intellectual debate or offer anything of value -their sole purpose is to inflate a fragile ego by claiming to be different.

Big difference between a poster who is often pompous but definitely informative and whose posts are designed around value.


M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Expertise
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Fri Jul-09-04 03:20 AM

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134. "You're not talking about context."
In response to Reply # 127
Fri Jul-09-04 03:23 AM

  

          

There isn't a real argument you're making. All you want to do is try to show that Cosby gives more to charities and the like than Sowell and McWhorter supposedly do (you really don't know what they give), hence, that's supposed to show more "intent" and somehow, make him more credible.

Cosby is a multimillionaire, having made his money in entertainment and business ventures. But I wasn't talking about charities or philantrophy, I was talking about the statements both are making at hand.

Context has to do with the statements both have made. As I said before, "Cosby hasn't said anything Sowell or McWhorter hasn't said". You haven't shown there is a difference. To show a difference, you would actually point out what they've said that contradicts what Cosby said. All you're doing is using a straw man argument to divert from my initial statement.

Of course, your egocentric attitude shelters you from actually seeing that. Instead, you spend half the time on this thread making irrelevant statements, then spend the other half promoting yourself on a internet message board trying to make yourself look like a big deal.
__________________________
My politics and sports blog .

"Are you saying there's no qualified black Democrats out there to be veep? I mean, he didn't even consider them. I mean 94% of the black population votes for the Democrat candidate every four years, and no black leaders were even demanding it! They weren't even demanding it.

So we're thinking, okay, who would be somebody that could really shake it up? And we came up with one man. We came up with a name, folks: Donovan McNabb. Kerry-McNabb. The only problem is neither of them could carry Philadelphia." - Rush Limbaugh

_________________________
http://expertise.blogdrive.com
http://twitter.com/KMBReferee
http://www.ask.fm/KMBReferee

  

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M2
Charter member
10072 posts
Fri Jul-09-04 05:42 AM

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137. "Weaker than before......"
In response to Reply # 134


          


1. Have I said anything about my life or self-promoting in this thread?

No.

When I refer to it in other threads, they're merely as personal anecdotes that back up my primary thesis and aren't for the purpose of self promotion.

Unlike your constant stream of "Hey I'm a conservative" so I'm better than everyone posts, "Ask Expertise Ver X" threads or the "Please read my blog" part of your sig file.

If I was truly looking to promote myself rather than add value - I wouldn't start threads where people can ask me advice, as at the end of the day, OkP isn't going to promote my career - LOL.

2. Would you throw me in the same category politically or idealogy wise as Sowell or McWhorter with regards to Black People?

No.

Yet, I agree with Cosby 100% - and I said I agreed with him the last time this stuff was posted.

I even agree with McWhorter to some extent and have said so in the past.

Why?

Because the sum total of our beliefs as indicated by our words and actions, are completely different.

The same goes for Cosby.

Cosby criticizes Blacks who don't take advantage of the options available to them and than flies the ones who DO take advantage on his private Jet to pick out a college which he wil then pay for:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/07/08/cosby.students.ap/index.html

My sig criticizes Blacks who don't manage their money well - and I spend my time teaching Blacks about Money Mgt. who want to learn.

Like I said before - what do Sowell & McWhorter do that should make me believe they operate within the same idealogical context as Cosby?

Furthermore, do they do anything for Blacks other than criticize?

Well?

Until you can prove that and answer the original damn question - my point still stands.

See, I agreed with you that Cosby said things that McWhorter and Sowell have said in the past - just that the meaning and implications were diffent due to their overall belief systems being vastly different.

Something you can't truly disagree with - so instead you're just reaching for an argument because I called out your boys.



-M2




The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Monique
Charter member
2511 posts
Sat Jul-03-04 09:25 PM

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94. "FUTURE IMPACT.............."
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Jul-03-04 09:47 PM

  

          

Beyond improving the issues at hand.

after watching a CNN interview and the anchor...

basically the question now arising about if anyone else would speak to blacks in this way(as did mr. cosby),basically would it be acceptable.

the future i wonder about is in referencing to not "airing the dirty laundry".......
"your dirty laundry gets out of school at 2:30 everyday, it's cursing and calling each other N....."

somewhat of a feel of what's the difference in what they are saying with the "N" word and, or how it has been used upon us in history than what mr. cosby had stated.

so, no matter how anyone's child look,act, or before uttering a word do they now have a new unearned attached stigma.

CHECK YOUR LOCAL LISTINGS...TONITE(SUNDAY JULY 4, 2004).....
MSNBC
"N" WORD DOCUMENTARY/w Chuck D and others.

See/Hear D'ANGELO @ www.dangelosangels.com . MISS NO PAGES.

***********************************************************
NELLY: I'm Humble In Life Taking Nothing For Granted

AFRICA: www.bbcnews.com

THE BROKER: John Grisham

  

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Taharka
Member since Apr 18th 2003
7769 posts
Mon Jul-05-04 08:44 PM

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101. "Cosbys needs to eat a puddin pop and shut the fuck up"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

that is all.

<--- The lovely Ms Hill when she wasn't thrown off.

LOOK WHOS RAPPIN NOW
http://www.myspace.com/quil215

  

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JahBrown

Tue Jul-06-04 04:02 AM

  
102. "RE: Cosby"
In response to Reply # 0


          

It's really about time...turn the mirror around! I see it everyday where I'm from. Shit is pathetic! I've seen drop dead gorgeous women turn into early morning trick chasers, destructive mob of kids running around 'causing trouble' for elders..the way things are now, the school system should consider shortening the summer vacation breaks to one month...

  

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encore
Member since Sep 07th 2003
216 posts
Wed Jul-07-04 06:58 AM

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108. "the one thing I noticed about Bill's comments is"
In response to Reply # 0


          

He has very valid complaints about things that are going on in our communities. Education, drugs, teen pregnancy etc. etc. It's all there. Alot of it is self inflicted and alot of it is institutionalized.

HOWEVER...and maybe this has been mentioned already...But outside of complaining about it, what has Bill done REALLY done to combat these particular problems?

Now, before ya'll start talking about college funds and positive sitcoms and whatnot, think about what he's complaining about. I mean, putting money into colleges for black folks is great, but there are 12 grades before that that need to be taken care of before college. And seeing a black family full of doctors and lawyers on tv looks more like a pipe dream than a possibility if you don't know ALL the tools to become one. It doesn't just start in college. If rich black folks want to know where to put their money, they need to put it in elemantary and highschool education. You do that, in 15 years there won't be a need for affirmative action in college.

In the meantime, black folks need to be educated on what's important to function properly in this society. The reality is, we all can't be doctors and lawyers and college grads. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't understand the importance of good credit, owning property and reeducating ourselves on what constitutes having a good job. Plumbers, electricians, janatorial services used to be considered great jobs. My father's good friend is a millionare right now running a janatorial service.

So this all goes back to Bill. It's cool to complain about the shit as long as you have ideas in the same breath.

  

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Wisdom9
Member since Sep 17th 2003
360 posts
Wed Jul-07-04 12:58 PM

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113. "Well...."
In response to Reply # 108
Wed Jul-07-04 01:18 PM

          

I appreciate and respect your comments, but Bill's remarks revolved primarily around *the family*, not around primary or secondary education.

You can put all of the money into elementary and secondary schools that you want, but if people don't have the kind of family values that place an emphasis on discipline and education, it won't do any good.

Bill knows that no matter what he does, he cannot raise peoples' kids for them--and the worst of the problems that he was addressing lie in the area of child rearing.

I don't think that Bill is saying that everyone needs to be like him (i.e. highly educated w/multiple graduate-level degrees). I just think he's saying that we are not going to move forward until people develop more of a sense of respect for education and learning *in general*.

Even in the examples you gave (plumbers, electricians, janitorial, construction etc.), some sort of regimented training program or vocational schooling is a prerequisite. If you don't respect authority enough to listen to your elders in the profession, how are you going to get the training necessary to do those jobs?


Encore-the following comments are not directed at you specifically--they are just general thoughts on my part:


This debate about Cosby's remarks ties in with the post in GD about the children of foreign-born blacks attending Harvard and other elite institutions in higher numbers than the children of native-born blacks. The children of these foreign-born parents are not any less black than we are--so why are they so much more succcessful than we are in gaining access to these institutions? I think that the reasons are cultural--and the difference can be seen in the strong emphasis on the value of education that is instilled in these children.

To be frank, I think that for starters, leaders from the native-born African-American community should consult with educators from the West Indies, as well as with educators and community leaders of the foreign-born blacks inside the U.S. They should start a dialogue about trying to institute some of the foreign blacks' emphasis on education amongst American blacks who are struggling with these issues. I understand that this would be a major, major undertaking in terms of implementation, but I think it would be a step in the right direction.

Many of the issues that American black people have concerning the value of education stem from the particular history of slavery and its aftermath in this country. I think that blacks who espouse these borderline-hostile views toward education fail to realize that we are virtually the *only* people in this country that have these kinds of pitched battles over the fundamental value of education, and that this has to do with the uniqueness of our historical experience.

The success of foreign-born blacks in American educational institutions proves that these hang-ups are simply not shared by all blacks.

One good way for us to move forward would be to try to learn from the example of these foreign-born blacks. Some of the American black leadership may be too proud to humble themselves to 'outsiders' in this way, but the fact is that we are going to have to get an infusion of new information from somewhere, because many of our people are headed nowhere under the current paradigm.

  

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encore
Member since Sep 07th 2003
216 posts
Wed Jul-07-04 03:19 PM

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114. "RE: Well...."
In response to Reply # 113


          

>I appreciate and respect your comments, but Bill's remarks
>revolved primarily around *the family*, not around primary
>or secondary education.
>
>You can put all of the money into elementary and secondary
>schools that you want, but if people don't have the kind of
>family values that place an emphasis on discipline and
>education, it won't do any good.

Then it all he is doing is making the comments, which many people have done in our community, then the question is, "now what?"

I get bill's frustration. Really I do. But if his comments were strictly about the black family and how kids need to be raised, then the people who should be hearing this aren't hearing his message. These folks aren't watching FOX News or go to the conventions that Bill speaks at. What exactly is his goal?

>Bill knows that no matter what he does, he cannot raise
>peoples' kids for them--and the worst of the problems that
>he was addressing lie in the area of child rearing.

Again, who does he intend to hear this? I'm not even completely disagreeing with Bill. My problem is, it just comes off as screaming in the middle of the grand canyon. Jesse Jackson doesn't need to hear that message.

>I don't think that Bill is saying that everyone needs to be
>like him (i.e. highly educated w/multiple graduate-level
>degrees). I just think he's saying that we are not going to
>move forward until people develop more of a sense of respect
>for education and learning *in general*.

But how do you respect education if it's presented right from the get go. Bill doesn't even have to spend his money to do it. If he's going to use his mouth piece, speak on these entertainers and atheletes who aren't putting money back into these schools on a larger scale. There are too many black million and billionares for there not to be some sort of "rebuild a school" plan already. In ten years we could have every hood in america fixed.

>Even in the examples you gave (plumbers, electricians,
>janitorial, construction etc.), some sort of regimented
>training program or vocational schooling is a prerequisite.
>If you don't respect authority enough to listen to your
>elders in the profession, how are you going to get the
>training necessary to do those jobs?

Of course. Look we're not disagreeing here. I know the black family has fallen apart in alot of ways. But at this point, a teen mother is not all of sudden going to start "speaking proper" or teaching family values now because Bill or anyone said so. The key is trying to refocus in other ways. All the money that has been put in HBCU, if it was put into the elementary schools, we would have a totally different outlook on alot of what's going on right now.

>
>Encore-the following comments are not directed at you
>specifically--they are just general thoughts on my part:
>
>
>This debate about Cosby's remarks ties in with the post in
>GD about the children of foreign-born blacks attending
>Harvard and other elite institutions in higher numbers than
>the children of native-born blacks. The children of these
>foreign-born parents are not any less black than we are--so
>why are they so much more succcessful than we are in gaining
>access to these institutions? I think that the reasons are
>cultural--and the difference can be seen in the strong
>emphasis on the value of education that is instilled in
>these children.

Definitely. there is no question about that. But I think at this point, instead of pointing the finger at who's fucking up here, why not say ok, "Well, it looks like the kids aren't reaching us at the black colleges. How do we get there attention earlier?" feel me?

>To be frank, I think that for starters, leaders from the
>native-born African-American community should consult with
>educators from the West Indies, as well as with educators
>and community leaders of the foreign-born blacks inside the
>U.S. They should start a dialogue about trying to institute
>some of the foreign blacks' emphasis on education amongst
>American blacks who are struggling with these issues. I
>understand that this would be a major, major undertaking in
>terms of implementation, but I think it would be a step in
>the right direction.

It's too late for that. Like you said, it's a different culture that motivates black folks out there. They don't have as many distractions as we do out here. Trying to implement their way of doing things would be impossible and a waste of time in my opinion.

>Many of the issues that American black people have
>concerning the value of education stem from the particular
>history of slavery and its aftermath in this country. I
>think that blacks who espouse these borderline-hostile views
>toward education fail to realize that we are virtually the
>*only* people in this country that have these kinds of
>pitched battles over the fundamental value of education, and
>that this has to do with the uniqueness of our historical
>experience.

true

>The success of foreign-born blacks in American educational
>institutions proves that these hang-ups are simply not
>shared by all blacks.

true again

>One good way for us to move forward would be to try to learn
>from the example of these foreign-born blacks. Some of the
>American black leadership may be too proud to humble
>themselves to 'outsiders' in this way, but the fact is that
>we are going to have to get an infusion of new information
>from somewhere, because many of our people are headed
>nowhere under the current paradigm.

  

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Wisdom9
Member since Sep 17th 2003
360 posts
Wed Jul-07-04 06:39 PM

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118. "RE: Well...."
In response to Reply # 114
Wed Jul-07-04 06:46 PM

          

I guess we can agree to disagree on the idea of looking to consult West Indian educators, foreign-born blacks living in the U.S. etc.

Keep in mind that the Harvard statistics encompass *children* of foreign-born blacks--many of the kids themselves were born *here*. Yes, their parents provide a different cultural approach to child-rearing, but the kids have nonethless grown up in *American* society, with all of the same distractions as any American kid. And somehow, they are able to achieve on a higher level than the average American black student.

What we are seeing with these children is not the operation of West Indian/African cultural practices in their native context--we are seeing an *adaptation* to the American milieu. The fact is that these people have had to make adjustments in order to raise their children here, and I think that there are things that we can learn from that.

Due to differences in the history of slavery in the (particularly English-speaking) Carribean vs. the U.S., these people have developed a *system* of education in their home countries that is optimized to produce competent, responsible individuals. We have never been able to develop a similar system here because for hundreds of years, whites have taken great pains to sabotage our efforts to develop a competetive system of education.

This is the 'dirty secret' behind American blacks' ambivalent stance toward education. Given the fact that it was denied to us for so long, many of us have developed this sort of defensive reaction to education--'I don't need no white man's education...' This self-defeating defensive attitude continues to the present day, despite the fact that many blacks who do it today don't even know where this attitude actually comes from in the first place.

Of course, it is the height of hypocrisy for white people to turn around now and wonder why we aren't competetive, considering the historical context, but we don't have any choice but to try and get ourselves together.

In my opinion, we need to consult with these foreign-born blacks, because they have successfully adapted their educational values to American society. I'm not suggesting that we try to transplant the Carribean approach to education wholesale; indeed, the immigrants themselves haven't done this. What they have done is *adapted* their traditions and values successfully to an American context.

We are going to have to do some adapting of our own in the near future, or many of us are going to perish. The mainstream black American culture is going to have to change *profoundly* if we are going to continue as a people--I don't really think that this is debatable.

I think that many people are too caught up in being personally offended by what Cosby said, and they miss the point that the guy obviously cares. I mean, he's a *billionaire*--he doesn't have to deal with *any* black people (other than his wife) if he doesn't feel like it. He doesn't even have to *see* any if he doesn't want to.

Believe me, it would be very easy for him to just walk away from the situation and say, 'fuck those niggers--they're just no good, and that's the end of it.' But this is not really what he said. I think the man wanted to light a fire under people's butts, especially since he is getting up in years, and doesn't know how much longer he has to be here (not like any of us know how long we have either).

There are many other prominent blacks, (particularly certain individuals in entertainment and music industry circles) who are silent in the face of all of this cultural chaos amongst blacks. They are silent, in certain cases, because they are making money off of their own people's confusion and misery, and they are much more worthy of criticism than Cosby, as far as I'm concerned.

  

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encore
Member since Sep 07th 2003
216 posts
Wed Jul-07-04 08:15 PM

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119. "RE: Well...."
In response to Reply # 118


          

>I guess we can agree to disagree on the idea of looking to
>consult West Indian educators, foreign-born blacks living in
>the U.S. etc.

Actually I'd rather be discussing these ideas and debating this than whether or not Cosby's comments. Ya know? I think no matter what side you fall on the comments, no one can deny that it wasn't really coming with any options other than pointing fingers.

>Keep in mind that the Harvard statistics encompass
>*children* of foreign-born blacks--many of the kids
>themselves were born *here*. Yes, their parents provide a
>different cultural approach to child-rearing, but the kids
>have nonethless grown up in *American* society, with all of
>the same distractions as any American kid. And somehow,
>they are able to achieve on a higher level than the average
>American black student.

I believe you. I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I just think that our black leaders haven't developed ANY real plan for what Cosby is talking about to really say what is or isn't working. We haven't really exhausted all of our own options. So to look somewhere else for a plan or a solution just doesn't sound right to me. Especially when what's going on there has been instilled by time and history. A different history. That's what I meant by not being able to implement a culture. Also, who is going to represent black americans and pick up this information to apply to us? How is this blueprint going to be drawn up?

>What we are seeing with these children is not the operation
>of West Indian/African cultural practices in their native
>context--we are seeing an *adaptation* to the American
>milieu. The fact is that these people have had to make
>adjustments in order to raise their children here, and I
>think that there are things that we can learn from that.

I understand what you're saying. there are plenty of things to learn from. But even what was adapted from america, was still woven into the west indian culture and based on the west indian issues of the day. When it really comes down to it, alot of our values are similar if not identical. However, there are so many different external factors that have altered what values have stuck and what have been forgotten. We are only going to learn so much from someone who hasn't had the same history. And no this isn't a "our history is more fucked up than there's" thing. It's just a different history.

>Due to differences in the history of slavery in the
>(particularly English-speaking) Carribean vs. the U.S.,
>these people have developed a *system* of education in their
>home countries that is optimized to produce competent,
>responsible individuals. We have never been able to develop
>a similar system here because for hundreds of years, whites
>have taken great pains to sabotage our efforts to develop a
>competetive system of education.

Right. so the question is, if we don't do anything to take over our schools, how is learning from the west indians going to help that?

>This is the 'dirty secret' behind American blacks'
>ambivalent stance toward education. Given the fact that it
>was denied to us for so long, many of us have developed this
>sort of defensive reaction to education--'I don't need no
>white man's education...' This self-defeating defensive
>attitude continues to the present day, despite the fact that
>many blacks who do it today don't even know where this
>attitude actually comes from in the first place.

I agree.

>Of course, it is the height of hypocrisy for white people to
>turn around now and wonder why we aren't competetive,
>considering the historical context, but we don't have any
>choice but to try and get ourselves together.

Right. Which is why I say we have enough money and power now to do it. It's just put in the right places.

>In my opinion, we need to consult with these foreign-born
>blacks, because they have successfully adapted their
>educational values to American society. I'm not suggesting
>that we try to transplant the Carribean approach to
>education wholesale; indeed, the immigrants themselves
>haven't done this. What they have done is *adapted* their
>traditions and values successfully to an American context.

But who do we have receive this consultation and then implement this approace to us in america? I just don't think it's that easy. You still have poor school systems to contend with.

>We are going to have to do some adapting of our own in the
>near future, or many of us are going to perish. The
>mainstream black American culture is going to have to change
>*profoundly* if we are going to continue as a people--I
>don't really think that this is debatable.

no debate from me. The shit is absolutely frightening brotha.

>I think that many people are too caught up in being
>personally offended by what Cosby said, and they miss the
>point that the guy obviously cares. I mean, he's a
>*billionaire*--he doesn't have to deal with *any* black
>people (other than his wife) if he doesn't feel like it. He
>doesn't even have to *see* any if he doesn't want to.

But I think that ranting about it without really reaching down to the people he's referring too, can come off as either caring or embarrassed to be black. I would like to think it's just him caring and just not being able to come with anyother ideas. But when you do it more than once, it becomes very nonproductive and self serving. But at least he's got us talking about it.

>Believe me, it would be very easy for him to just walk away
>from the situation and say, 'fuck those niggers--they're
>just no good, and that's the end of it.' But this is not
>really what he said. I think the man wanted to light a fire
>under people's butts, especially since he is getting up in
>years, and doesn't know how much longer he has to be here
>(not like any of us know how long we have either).

Like I said, I would like to hope that's his intentions.

>There are many other prominent blacks, (particularly certain
>individuals in entertainment and music industry circles)
>who are silent in the face of all of this cultural chaos
>amongst blacks. They are silent, in certain cases, because
>they are making money off of their own people's confusion
>and misery, and they are much more worthy of criticism than
>Cosby, as far as I'm concerned.

VERY TRUE. Which is what I've been really getting to as part of the problem. I really think it would've been interesting, if Cosby had put other entertainer's feet to the fire, to see what the reaction here would be. My critique isn't really with what he said. He basically said that we have a problem. But he didn't come with any plan. It was just a rant.

  

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Wisdom9
Member since Sep 17th 2003
360 posts
Wed Jul-07-04 08:59 PM

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120. "Hey..."
In response to Reply # 119


          

I *just* realized who I was talking to (sorry, I'm a bit slow...)! I have 'Self-Preservation', and I like it. I need to get some of your newer stuff. It's been a pleasure conversing with you--good luck and continued success with your music.

  

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encore
Member since Sep 07th 2003
216 posts
Thu Jul-08-04 06:20 PM

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130. "likewise my man"
In response to Reply # 120


          

>I *just* realized who I was talking to (sorry, I'm a bit
>slow...)! I have 'Self-Preservation', and I like it. I
>need to get some of your newer stuff. It's been a pleasure
>conversing with you--good luck and continued success with
>your music.

thank you. Peace

  

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k_orr
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Fri Jul-09-04 06:23 PM

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141. "great post, some comments"
In response to Reply # 113


  

          

>You can put all of the money into elementary and secondary
>schools that you want, but if people don't have the kind of
>family values that place an emphasis on discipline and
>education, it won't do any good.

This above, is not an easy thing to say.

I'll leave it at that.

>This debate about Cosby's remarks ties in with the post in
>GD about the children of foreign-born blacks attending
>Harvard and other elite institutions in higher numbers than
>the children of native-born blacks. The children of these
>foreign-born parents are not any less black than we are--so
>why are they so much more succcessful than we are in gaining
>access to these institutions?

Good question, but...

>I think that the reasons are
>cultural--and the difference can be seen in the strong
>emphasis on the value of education that is instilled in
>these children.

This is definitely true, however when you focus on harvard, you're focusing on the creme de la creme.

To really understand if Carribbean or Afrikan culture affects attitudes about learning, discipline, you need to look @ the elementary and secondary levels.

If you went to NY, how many Jamaicans, Trinis, and Haitians (or 1st generation children) are flunking out?

You can easily make the foreign born/children of immigrants argument for the model minority, our Asian peeps. But research (none of which I have in front of me), suggest that the model minority thing works well in 1) well to do/professional families, 2) 1st generation American born.

Once you get to the 2nd, 3rd and 4th generations (think California), the model minority falls apart.

>To be frank, I think that for starters, leaders from the
>native-born African-American community should consult with
>educators from the West Indies, as well as with educators
>and community leaders of the foreign-born blacks inside the
>U.S.

Well I can tell you from anecdotal experience that the best Jamaican education, is usually private. That the British system that carried over, is more rigorous than the American system.

How much of that culturally translates?

But most importantly, Black Teachers teaching black Students, expect the very best from all of them. Add to that, the fact that everyone in your community is black, the cops, the crooks, the doctors, the lawyers, the engineers, the businessmen - being smart, doing the right thing - is not a "white thing".

Taking it back to the US - where these things aren't present, When you look @ good performing low income/majority black and brown schools in the US, it's the same 2 things, 1) teacher effectiveness, 2) teacher expectations.

>They should start a dialogue about trying to institute
>some of the foreign blacks' emphasis on education amongst
>American blacks who are struggling with these issues. I
>understand that this would be a major, major undertaking in
>terms of implementation, but I think it would be a step in
>the right direction.

I actually think it's more than that.

Of course you gonna have that set of parents that don't believe their baby doesn't do anything wrong, and it's gotta be racism that's holding them back.....But that's the stereotype.

What's more common in our communities, is
- the parents don't know how to help their children with their homework.

I remember teaching this 5th grader how to multiply fractions.
Norman. Well Norman was relatively sharp, but they did "the new math" @ school. It took me more than a few minutes to pick up on it. (I actualy took it home that night to work on it, and i'm still not sure if I can do it) His mother on the other hand, could get the right answer, but she did it the old school way.

So imagine that scenario being played out 500 times @ his school, for 6-8 subjects.

And best believe Norman was black and Latino. And best believe that all the other folks at his school were poor, black, or latino.

Add in the fact that anyone with a degree can teach middle and high school in the State of Texas.

Now add in, George Bush and the whole High Stakes Test Taking is the way to go.

- the parents do not know what the standards should be.
What should a 9 year old be reading?
How do I know if my child is learning how to do word problems?

Unless your parents are teachers, chances are you're not gonna be able....

You really want to educate black children and latino children, and hell just poor children in general, it means more than some laws passed and more funding, it means an *entire* culture change.

It's more than just parents actively involved @ the school dance and in fundraising, but you often times need grown adults to sit in classes with their children, so when the teacher leaves, the parents can still teach the children @ home.

And the parents have to be able to chart and understand their child's educational process. It's not just send them off for a few years and they come back ready to go to college.

But first things first, parents have to be made aware of what all this means.

A lot of caring parents really just don't have a clue about education.

>Many of the issues that American black people have
>concerning the value of education stem from the particular
>history of slavery and its aftermath in this country. I
>think that blacks who espouse these borderline-hostile views
>toward education fail to realize that we are virtually the
>*only* people in this country that have these kinds of
>pitched battles over the fundamental value of education, and
>that this has to do with the uniqueness of our historical
>experience.

Well, that might be the perception, but it's also cause we dont' really pay attention to whites as a group.

There is a general distrust of academics and intellectual type stuff across the board in this country.

Even on activist, if a philosopher isn't out in the community getting people registered to vote, OKP wants them ex-communicated from the black community. "all he does is talk".."all they do is write papers"

And this is on OkayActivist, mind you.

Now look into the white community, and you'll find much the same sort of hatred.

Take their boys @ columbine.
These were the nerds and outcasts of the white world. (I think one of the kids had developmental problems or something), but white folks be hating on smart white kids on the regular.

The diff is, the smart white kids have enough support from one another, and from society in general, that they can make it past the silly world of public school. (you know this starts in the 1st grade)

>The success of foreign-born blacks in American educational
>institutions proves that these hang-ups are simply not
>shared by all blacks.

Well, yeah ummm maybe.

200 black kids @ harvard, 150 or so are Foreign Born, tells you nothing about the 30 million black folks in this country and the education that we receive.

The fact that Lincoln is @ Princeton, might over look the fact that Mikey, Bunny, and Desmond are still on the block.

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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Wisdom9
Member since Sep 17th 2003
360 posts
Sat Jul-10-04 12:54 AM

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142. "Hello..."
In response to Reply # 141
Sat Jul-10-04 01:56 AM

          

Thanks for your comments.

>You can put all of the money into elementary and secondary
>schools that you want, but if people don't have the kind of
>family values that place an emphasis on discipline and
>education, it won't do any good.

"This above, is not an easy thing to say.

I'll leave it at that."

Well, the idea of more funding for schools is important, but when there is a situation where the young people just plain don't know how to act, and don't have any respect for elders or authority because of a lack of home training, I don't think that there's going to be any big improvement. If anything, the school's resources will get turned toward making the place into a penal colony instead of a school, in order to control the kids (e.g. police officers in the NYC schools, etc.).

My point is that even with all of the racism, differential treatment, and injustice in the educational system and American society in general, some of our people are still not making the most out of what is available to them, and we aren't going to get any sympathy (or additional funding) from *anybody* as long as this sort of thing is going on.

"If you went to NY, how many Jamaicans, Trinis, and Haitians (or 1st generation children) are flunking out?

You can easily make the foreign born/children of immigrants argument for the model minority, our Asian peeps. But research (none of which I have in front of me), suggest that the model minority thing works well in 1) well to do/professional families, 2) 1st generation American born.

Once you get to the 2nd, 3rd and 4th generations (think California), the model minority falls apart."

Please understand that I am not interested in anointing West Indians as 'model minorities'. I just think that there are things we can learn from those parents and educators that were themselves educated *in the Caribbean*. The point is not so much to deify the U.S. descendants of these people, but to consult with educators who have experience with those educational systems.

The significant point is that these adults are the benificiaries of a system of education that is not operating on the basic assumption (or at least the strong suspicion) of black inferiority.

As far as the institutional level, this is why we are always going to have trouble with these issues as long as we sit back and wait for white American society and its institutions to solve this problem (not that I'm suggesting that you are making this argument).

Many whites don't really view the issue of black education as a 'crisis' or a 'problem'--because deep down, many of them think we are inferior anyway. If it were not for this kind of racist undercurrent, this issue would have been dealt with decades ago. This is the richest, most powerful country in the world. There is no good reason why there should be so many black people in this country today who are uneducated, even to the point of being functionally illiterate. Obviously, there are quite a few whites in this country who don't really *give* a shit whether our kids learn or not.

All I am saying with the 'West Indian' issue is that, while I am not arguing for some kind of wholesale transplant of institutions, I don't neccessarily buy the idea that we can't learn anything from these immigrants and their approach to education. American laws and institutions have been influential world-wide, particularly over the last 50 years. If other countries can be influenced (for good or for ill) by our institutions, why can't it work the other way?

Maybe it is true that the knowledge is not transferrable from the West Indian Immigrant context to the broader African American context--but at this point, it's all conjecture. I'm just saying that it is worth looking into--some studies should be done, and experts on that educational system should be consulted, in my opinion.

Maybe there could be a study-abroad program where African American student teachers would go to teachers' colleges in the Carribean, where they would study the Carribean system.

Like I said, I am well aware of all the implied problems in terms of implementation--I'm just saying that these immigrants are clearly doing something differently in terms of instilling the value of education in their kids, and I am interested in whether we as a people can learn something from this.

All of the comments you make about the problems that some parents have with helping their kids with homework are well taken. However, I think that there is still a significant problem with some kids not really coming to school with the kind of attitude that will give them a chance at success. Believe me, I am not some neoconservative individual who is unsympathetic toward people, and I didn't attend primary and secondary school in a wealthy or privileged community. But when I see kids who have no respect for elders, and with an idea of their 'blackness' that somehow precludes any notion of the value of formal education, I know that we have a big problem on our hands.

>Many of the issues that American black people have
>concerning the value of education stem from the particular
>history of slavery and its aftermath in this country. I
>think that blacks who espouse these borderline-hostile views
>toward education fail to realize that we are virtually the
>*only* people in this country that have these kinds of
>pitched battles over the fundamental value of education, and
>that this has to do with the uniqueness of our historical
>experience.

"Well, that might be the perception, but it's also cause we dont' really pay attention to whites as a group.

There is a general distrust of academics and intellectual type stuff across the board in this country."

I am well aware of the general American trend toward anti-intellectualism, and that white people have a version of this as well. However, black people's issues with this are much more complex, in my view, because for some of our people, the notion of 'blackness' itself is placed in opposition to the idea of being an educated person. This is where the tie-in with the history of slavery in the US occurs.

While white Americans have their own issues with anti-intellectualism, you don't hear white people saying things like, "Why is so-and-so studying so hard? What, is he trying not to be white or something?" This statement is so absurd that I have trouble even typing it--white people simply don't talk in these terms. The black situation cannot be reduced to simple American anti-intellectualism--when you have a situation where people are staking their fundamental notion of identity on the idea of *opposition* to formal education, the problem takes on a whole other dimension. My point is that this is definitely contributing to our overall problem.

I am not denying that this is at least partially caused by historical/structural factors (see my post #98). I am just saying that if we are waiting around for whites as a group to acknowledge the historical legacy of racism and fix the situation, we are kidding ourselves--this isn't going to happen.

"The diff is, the smart white kids have enough support from one another, and from society in general, that they can make it past the silly world of public school. (you know this starts in the 1st grade)"

Which goes toward my point. To say that white kids are much more likely to escape the worst effects of some of the negative trends in society (in this case anti-intellectualism) because of the existence of a white support network does nothing to change the reality that black people who do the same thing end up not getting an education.

The whole "well, white people do it too" argument is not really relevant, in my opinion. We have always known that we are going to have to work harder, and overcome more obstacles than whites in order to get half as far as they do. We can ill afford to engage in the kind of anti-intellectualism that some whites deal with--we all know that the system will not work to help us in the same way if we screw up.

>The success of foreign-born blacks in American educational
>institutions proves that these hang-ups are simply not
>shared by all blacks.

"Well, yeah ummm maybe.

200 black kids @ harvard, 150 or so are Foreign Born, tells you nothing about the 30 million black folks in this country and the education that we receive."

I'm not suggesting that, by itself, the Harvard study is equivalent to a thorough study of black education in America. However I *am* saying that the results are significant, and in a certain sense alarming for AAs (although I have nothing against West Indians or Africans succeeding--I am sure that they earned it).

Granted, Harvard students represent a miniscule part of the overall student population, but it is significant in that the Ivy League schools are the gateway to the most prestigious and lucrative job networks in this country. I am not saying that AAs should all aspire to go to Harvard, I'm saying that, all other things being equal, *our* kids should have the advantage over the children of foreign-born blacks, in terms of their ability to gain admission to prestigious US schools through competetive admissions. Again, I am not begrudging the foreign-born blacks their success--if we aren't going to take full advantage of the opportunity, why shouldn't they?

The fact that 2/3 of these students have foreign-born parents (or are biracial) is significant, because these blacks form a relatively small proportion of the 30 million blacks in this country--the overwhelming majority of US blacks have parents who are native-born. Its not even like we're talking 50-50 in terms of population--it is much more lopsided than that. I am going to speculate for a moment and say that if a broader study were to be done, you might well see similar results at many other prestigious institutions across the country.


"The fact that Lincoln is @ Princeton, might over look the fact that Mikey, Bunny, and Desmond are still on the block."

I am not suggesting that all West Indians are at Harvard or in the Ivy League. I am simply saying that these results would not look like this if native-born AAs were taking better overall advantage of their educational opportunities. Hell, even if you exclude the poorer AAs who are more likely to come from low-performing schools (not that I advocate ignoring them), there are more than enough *middle-class* blacks in this country to preclude a result like this.

In closing, I say: 'Bravo' to the Caribbean folks and Africans--but in the same breath, I say to native-born AAs 'Why in the hell can't we compete more effectively? We are the vast majority of the black population in this country, and we should be at these institutions in much greater numbers!'

While I am certainly no elitist, I think that the fact that we aren't able to put more students in the top institution in this country *is* significant of a larger problem in our community, notwithstanding all of the issues with racism and discrimination.

Another important thing to keep in mind that is that there are non-black minority groups in America that are only a fraction of the size of AAs (in terms of their proportion of the population) who place many, many more students in top schools like Harvard than we do. I am aware that our overall problems are much more complex than just looking at our admissions to elite institutions, but these results *are* significant, on a certain level.

Bottom line--we have to do much, much better than we have been doing, in terms of preparing our kids to compete in the educational arena.

BTW, it sounds as though you might be a teacher yourself. If so, much respect to you for being down 'in the trenches' on this issue.

I can definitely say that the low pay that teachers receive in the US is a crime, and is one of the major contributing factors to underachievement among US students in general.

  

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k_orr
Charter member
80197 posts
Sun Jul-11-04 07:53 AM

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146. "point by point"
In response to Reply # 142


  

          

>Thanks for your comments.
>
>>You can put all of the money into elementary and secondary
>>schools that you want, but if people don't have the kind of
>>family values that place an emphasis on discipline and
>>education, it won't do any good.
>
>"This above, is not an easy thing to say.
>
>I'll leave it at that."
>
>Well, the idea of more funding for schools is important, but
>when there is a situation where the young people just plain
>don't know how to act,

I just don't want to address this assertion in this post.

> I just think that there are
>things we can learn from those parents and educators that
>were themselves educated *in the Caribbean*.

1. Are you Caribbean?
2. Are you an educator?

Honestly, I don't think there is much to learn, that is replicable here.

In essence
- believe in your children
- raise the expectations
- make the curriculum more rigorous

That's what you can do on the school end.

But in Afrika and the Caribbean, you've got an entire culture, where this is the norm. Respect for teachers. Everyone is trying to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer...or the children don't see this as impossible for a black person to be those things, because that is the norm in those countries. (we wont' mention private schools, corporal punishment, or the class issues in those countries)

>The significant point is that these adults are the
>benificiaries of a system of education that is not operating
>on the basic assumption (or at least the strong suspicion)
>of black inferiority.

Well yeah, but they weren't born here either.
They aren't Americans.

> Maybe it is true that the knowledge is not transferrable
>from the West Indian Immigrant context to the broader
>African American context--but at this point, it's all
>conjecture. I'm just saying that it is worth looking
>into--some studies should be done, and experts on that
>educational system should be consulted, in my opinion.

Folks have been doing that.

Here's something from the UK
http://www.bopcris.ac.uk/bop1974/ref4424.html

In the UK, w.i. children raised by W.I. parents statistically underachieve.


>Maybe there could be a study-abroad program where African
>American student teachers would go to teachers' colleges in
>the Carribean, where they would study the Carribean system.

Are you suggesting that the Caribbean schools have diff techniques for teaching reading, writing, and arithmetic that would work better for black children?

>All of the comments you make about the problems that some
>parents have with helping their kids with homework are well
>taken. However, I think that there is still a significant
>problem with some kids not really coming to school with the
>kind of attitude that will give them a chance at success.

Those are really 2 issues, that are interdependent.

> However, black people's issues with this
>are much more complex, in my view, because for some of our
>people, the notion of 'blackness' itself is placed in
>opposition to the idea of being an educated person. This
>is where the tie-in with the history of slavery in the US
>occurs.

Maybe.

>I'm saying that, all other things being equal, *our* kids
>should have the advantage over the children of foreign-born
>blacks, in terms of their ability to gain admission to
>prestigious US schools through competetive admissions.

That's what they were saying, but it's not what we're really talking about.

In essence, they're making an affirmative action claim.
Aff Action is meant to remedy abuse of Black Americans.

We're discussing why are there so many black folks who haven't been here as long, and what those parents are doing to make their children succeed in the American school system.


>The fact that 2/3 of these students have foreign-born
>parents (or are biracial) is significant, because these
>blacks form a relatively small proportion of the 30 million
>blacks in this country--the overwhelming majority of US
>blacks have parents who are native-born.

I gotta throw this in again. A lot of American Born Blacks that are achieving academically, think HBCU's are better than Ivy's. So a dearth of Af Am's at these "prestigious" institutions, is not really the cause for alarm that people make it out to be.

Now it's up to you to decide if these black folks are making a mistake by going to an HBCU vs a PWI.

>Its not even like
>we're talking 50-50 in terms of population--it is much more
>lopsided than that. I am going to speculate for a moment and
>say that if a broader study were to be done, you might
>well see similar results at many other prestigious
>institutions across the country.

It will be a detailed study because the college choices aren't as simple as go to school based on SAT score and program.

>"The fact that Lincoln is @ Princeton, might over look the
>fact that Mikey, Bunny, and Desmond are still on the block."
>
>I am not suggesting that all West Indians are at Harvard or
>in the Ivy League. I am simply saying that these results
>would not look like this if native-born AAs were taking
>better overall advantage of their educational opportunities.

possibly.

> Hell, even if you exclude the poorer AAs who are more
>likely to come from low-performing schools (not that I
>advocate ignoring them), there are more than enough
>*middle-class* blacks in this country to preclude a result
>like this.

Enter the HBCU.

>In closing, I say: 'Bravo' to the Caribbean folks and
>Africans--but in the same breath, I say to native-born AAs
>'Why in the hell can't we compete more effectively? We are
>the vast majority of the black population in this country,
>and we should be at these institutions in much greater
>numbers!'

yeah.


>Bottom line--we have to do much, much better than we have
>been doing, in terms of preparing our kids to compete in the
>educational arena.
>
>BTW, it sounds as though you might be a teacher yourself.
>If so, much respect to you for being down 'in the trenches'
>on this issue.

I'm not, my mother is.
I've just tutored.

> I can definitely say that the low pay that teachers receive
>in the US is a crime, and is one of the major contributing
>factors to underachievement among US students in general.

Actually, I don't know about that either.

Teacher pay would have to increase from avg of 20-30 to start, to 60-80 to start to change the folks becoming teachers.

one
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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Wisdom9
Member since Sep 17th 2003
360 posts
Wed Jul-28-04 09:01 AM

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150. "Ummm"
In response to Reply # 146
Wed Jul-28-04 09:44 AM

          

>
>Well, the idea of more funding for schools is important, but
>when there is a situation where the young people just plain
>don't know how to act,

>>I just don't want to address this assertion in this post.

W9: Hey man, you don't have to address it if you don't want to, but it remains an issue. Believe me, I would love to say that this is not a real problem for us, but after 10 years of living in a major American city, I know better. If you have a situation where some people have no respect for the value of education, or any kind of authority whatsoever, how is any learning going to take place? A school can't do anything to instill that in you if your parents have not already done so.

I am well aware that the problem has more dimensions than this (historical/structural racism, etc.), but I *am* saying that this is a significant problem--and this particular dimension cannot be addressed simply by putting more money into the schools.

> I just think that there are
>things we can learn from those parents and educators that
>were themselves educated *in the Caribbean*.

>>1. Are you Caribbean?
>>2. Are you an educator?

W9: I never claimed to be either, so I'm not sure what your point is. The fact that I am not is the reason why I would be interested in talking to them--because they obviously are using approaches to education and/or child rearing that some AAs are not familiar with.

>>Honestly, I don't think there is much to learn, that is replicable here.

W9: You seem to be making an assertion without any evidence. Have you done any research into the matter?

I am *not* saying for sure that anything is transferrable, I am saying that it would be worthwhile to *look into* the question. You are saying that their approaches are not applicable to AAs in any way, and I am saying it is worth a look. We obviously disagree.

Until somebody actually does some research, that is where it is going to stay.

>>But in Afrika and the Caribbean, you've got an entire culture, where this is the norm. Respect for teachers. Everyone is trying to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer...or the children don't see this as impossible for a black person to be those things, because that is the norm in those countries. (we wont' mention private schools, corporal punishment, or the class issues in those countries)

W9: But the *point* is that it *isn't* 'impossible' for a black person to be a doctor, lawyer, etc. in the US, racism notwithstanding. These non-native born blacks are *proving* this with their disproportionate success in the educational and professional arenas.

If many AAs believe that it is literally 'impossible' to do these things, then why have these non-native born blacks had such success? My point is that any AA who has the attitude that these kinds of careers are somehow impossible to attain for a black person is suffering from a misconception, and is defeating themselves before they even begin.

>Maybe there could be a study-abroad program where African
>American student teachers would go to teachers' colleges in
>the Carribean, where they would study the Carribean system.

>>Are you suggesting that the Caribbean schools have diff techniques for teaching reading, writing, and arithmetic that would work better for black children?

W9: No, I am saying that a significant number of black immigrant parents who come here and raise families are clearly doing something different in terms of how their children deal with education, based on their high achievement. This is interesting to me, and if I had school-aged children, I would certainly be interested in talking to such people to see if I could learn anything. I don't really understand why this is so controversial.

>All of the comments you make about the problems that some
>parents have with helping their kids with homework are well
>taken. However, I think that there is still a significant
>problem with some kids not really coming to school with the
>kind of attitude that will give them a chance at success.

>>Those are really 2 issues, that are interdependent.

W9: I never said they were independent of one another. I am saying that there needs to be *some* discussion of the fact that some of our young people are not coming to school prepared to learn, and that all of the blame for this cannot be placed on the schools or on society at large.

Many people seem to want to discuss the structural/historical aspect of our situation without dealing with the need for people to take more responsibility for their children, and that is just as wrong.

I get the impression from this whole Cosby debate that some people think that somebody outside of us, or other than us, is going to make this situation right.

I am not old by any means, but I am already very clear that nobody is going to fix this but us, so people are going to have to lose this allergic reaction to self-criticism.

The structural/historical issues are real, but if we continue to underachieve educationally and professionally as a group, how are these things ever going to be addressed? It's a non-starter. Trust me, white people don't *really* care that much--if we keep underachieving, nobody is going to do anything to help us.

> However, black people's issues with this
>are much more complex, in my view, because for some of our
>people, the notion of 'blackness' itself is placed in
>opposition to the idea of being an educated person. This
>is where the tie-in with the history of slavery in the US
>occurs.

Maybe.

W9: Hey, you can say 'maybe', but based on my understanding of history, along with my own life experience, we *definitely* have a problem in terms of this 'acting/not acting black' BS.

The only way to be 'black' (in a positive sense) is to recognize the historical and structural situation that we are in, and try to do your best to help yourself and other black people. This whole thing about being a 'thug' or a 'nigga', etc., is not 'being black'--it's pure confusion, plain and simple. The fact that some of our people are confused about this issue is a *huge* problem, and I think it is one of the major internal contradictions that underlies this education issue.

Of course, this problem ultimately stems from our history in this country, but if we wait for white people or somebody else to fix the problem, we'll all be dead and gone, and the problem will continue to plague our descendants.

We have to start pointing out confusion for what it is, instead of pointing fingers at whites and expecting them to solve the problem (it'll never happen). For me, that is the significance of Cosby's statement, for all of its flaws.

>I'm saying that, all other things being equal, *our* kids
>should have the advantage over the children of foreign-born
>blacks, in terms of their ability to gain admission to
>prestigious US schools through competetive admissions.

>>That's what they were saying, but it's not what we're really talking about.

W9: Well I'm not sure what *you* are talking about, but I have been talking about our competetiveness the whole time.

>>In essence, they're making an affirmative action claim.
Aff Action is meant to remedy abuse of Black Americans.

W9: I understand. This is obvious.

>>We're discussing why are there so many black folks who haven't been here as long, and what those parents are doing to make their children succeed in the American school system.

W9: I was never confused about this. I understand that they are talking about AA, but the point is that even *within* AA, there is competition among the black applicants for the available spots, and we are being outstripped even in *that* limited arena. The relevant point is that we must be more competetive, regardless of whether we are talking about AA or not.

>The fact that 2/3 of these students have foreign-born
>parents (or are biracial) is significant, because these
>blacks form a relatively small proportion of the 30 million
>blacks in this country--the overwhelming majority of US
>blacks have parents who are native-born.

>>I gotta throw this in again. A lot of American Born Blacks that are achieving academically, think HBCU's are better than Ivy's. So a dearth of Af Am's at these "prestigious" institutions, is not really the cause for alarm that people make it out to be.

>>Now it's up to you to decide if these black folks are making a mistake by going to an HBCU vs a PWI.

W9: Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that attending an HBCU is a 'mistake', relative to an Ivy League institution.

What I *did* say is that one of the primary benefits of attending an Ivy League institution is that it can potentially provide access to the most prestigious and lucrative business and political networks in this country, and that is a *fact*.

You're making a false dichotomy between HBCUs and Ivy League schools. It isn't an either/or proposition. It's great that some black people attend and support HBCUS (see Cosby), but it is also good for some black people to attend and earn degrees at Ivy League schools. Whatever one wants to say about HBCUs, there are certain things that Ivy League schools offer that HBCUs don't, and vice versa.

Every other ethnic group sees the value of competing for admission to Ivy League institutions, so why should we turn our backs on trying to compete for what these places have to offer? Should we ignore this issue because Ivy League schools are not HBCUs???

> I can definitely say that the low pay that teachers receive
>in the US is a crime, and is one of the major contributing
>factors to underachievement among US students in general.

>>Actually, I don't know about that either.

>>Teacher pay would have to increase from avg of 20-30 to start, to 60-80 to start to change the folks becoming teachers.

W9:You don't think that the teachers of the next generation are worth more than 20-30K per year to start? Man, dental hygienists earn a *lot* more than that (no disrespect to them, of course). I can't really think of a more important job for the future of any society than primary and secondary school teachers.

I would rather spend money on teachers than on blowing cats up in Iraq, that's for sure.

Look, as far as the 'point by point' thing goes, my primary point is that there are major things that *we* are doing to ourselves that are contributing to our problems, and that we need to do better as a group. Blaming things on white people is not going to change anything--they don't really *give* a shit, at the end of the day. Ultimately, they will be happy to continue this dynamic in which we underachieve-- it just means more university admissions, jobs, quality pensions, etc, for them.

Cats really need to get to this when they take the position that there is nothing we need to do better to make ourselves more competetive, and that our situation can be blamed in its entirety on structural racism (I'm not saying that this is your position--this is a general comment). Man, if there is nothing we can do ourselves to improve our situation, we're pretty much through, because there is certainly nobody who is going to come save us.

The Harvard study was not central to my main argument--it was just a thought, and I continue to think that the parenting methods of these non-native blacks merits further study before it is dismissed out of hand. The point is that these people are confronting the same racist situation in this country that we are, but they seem to be competing more effectively, in certain respects.

It remains to be seen whether or not the young people who are children of non-native blacks will be able to pass their values on to the next generation--time will tell. What *is* clear at this time is that, in the future, a disproportionate number of the upwardly mobile black people in this country will be made up of these children of foreign-born blacks, which is interesting.

Like I said, the issue of whether we can learn from this example cannot be settled on these boards--it can only be settled through doing a study on the matter.

  

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jhewg
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Thu Jul-29-04 12:38 PM

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153. "Some thoughts"
In response to Reply # 150


  

          

I think both of you have some great points and I'd just like to add my 50 cents.

First, most of this debate seems to stem from John Ogbu's theory of a black oppositional culture in American schools. It certainly trancends class, and as I think wis9 points out, you find the same results in suburban students that you would find with urban students. My point is that this is certainly a cultural problem, not just a structural one. Thus, I think Cosby's comments have much validity, although I wish he would not limit his comments to the urban black underclass and would also address suburban and affluent african american's cultural defecits as well.

Complex problems call for complez solutions. I think wis9's call for collaboration with foreign born blacks is a good idea, as is increased support for students in urban schools that k orr seems to suggest. I will address each point seperately:

Collaboration with foreign born blacks to effect educational pedagogy may be valuable, but in and of it self it would likely have limited results unless it is part of a larger plan to diversify and transform black leadership in the US. Black leadership is currently antiquated because it fails to recognize that the black experience in America is no longer one-dimensional. Not only should black leadership recognize cultural and historical differences within the american black poulation, they should also recognize the significant cultural differences between blacks in different socio-economic classes. That would be the first move in my opinion. Once we admit that we're not all the same, then we can begin to recognize our common agenda. I say this because I feel that all black americans suffer from a lack understanding of what our common experiences and common agenda really is. Educational aspirations and acheivement would certainly be a part of this agenda. Currently, it seems to me as a layman that this type of multi-facited black leadership just doesn't exist. In fact, I don't really know if there is any agenda for black leadership in the US, period.

Thus, the focus should be on promoting black unity, which I think will create an influence of positive cultural transformation through the synthesis of black experience, goals, and values. I don't think we could expect to simply transform educational pedagogy and in turn transform black achievement by seeing how education is done in the carribean or elsewhere in african diasporic societies. I think k orr's points about the significant differences in those communities are quite valid, and such collaboration would be largely ineffective unless we all got on the same proverbial page first.

I would also point out that black underachievement is sypmtomatic of the involuntary minority effect in societies, where immigrants that have arrived against their will to a nation traditionally do not acheive at the same levels as immigrants who came to said nation with economic interests. In the US we're talking about AA's and native americans (who granted, are not immigrrants, so to speak, but fit this paradigm). Japanese, chinese, korean, cuban (first wave), and european immigrants came to the US under very different pretenses, and their success is largely attributable to their fundamental purposes for being here. You will also find that refugees and other immigrants that came here to escape hostilities at home do not have the same levels of acheivement.

As for K orr's points on structural deficits contributing to black achievement, I agree wholeheartedly. I also take issue with wis9's assertion that the school's can't do much to help students who don't have the necessary support at home. As an educator myself, I have seen students beat the odds and succeed because they received the proper support at school or from other social institutions that their parent(s) does(do) not provide. I think that urban public schools could do much better if they were able to implement even half of the student support resources that you see in elite private institutions, where the social development of the students is considered primal in their efforts to positively affect said students' academic and intellectual development. The biggest problem with urban schools, and public schools in general, is that there is little to no effort given to creating positive and intellectual school cultures. This sort of attention is a key ingredient to academic programming in independent schools.

I would also like to point out that while we debate whether african americans do or do not value education, there is actually NO SIGNIFICANT GAP in educational aspirations amongst black and white americans of any class. While it is popular to suggest that the black urban underclass does not value education, the actual oppositional attitude that may exist is much more nuanced than a "Fuck school" or "Fuck education" attitude. Black kids do not initially think that academic achievement is impossible. More accurately, there are specific conditions that nurtures feelings of opposition (indifferent or racist teachers, low expectations, and yes, the media), and that is what should be researched. Talk of "no repsect for auhority" and "no value for education" fits only a marignal group of urban black students.

As for Harvard, I would agree that it is alarming to here these facts about the decendents of black american slaves. But also, Harvard interviews every one of the students they admit, fuh'sho'. Thus, they can see who they think is a good cultural "fit." I would bet this assimilation tactic works against many an urban scholar. Also, I think that this policy is a cop out if they're claiming to be a champion of equality or social causes. If that was the case they would implement policies that address the lingering affects historical racial oppression in America, which our foreign born comrads have largely not experienced.

In all, the problems of education in the black community are indeed complex and do involve oppositional culture as well as structural deficits. The solution, though, starts at the top, with black leadership. Cosby's right to call black folk out and challenge them to better themselves, but the solution should be mutlifacited, and education is only one piece. Cultural deficits as well as continued exploitation and oppression should be strategically addressed by a leadership group, and ordinary citizens alike.

In closing, I think the blame whitey accusations are overblown ,themselves. I taught in urban schools and kids weren't constantly telling me that the white man was the reason why they weren't doing their fuckin' homework. Sure, there were a couple of kids who took that route, but I think that the larger problem stemmed from a lack of understanding of what it actually takes to be a high academic achiever. I do think that racial identity plays a role, but not in as much of a "I don't want to learn the white man's english" role in 2004. It's more subversive and it involves a general lack of cultural capital in the balck community. To that end, uniting all diasporic peoples in this nation would be a nice step in the right direction in developing and sharing such capital, but simply trying to implement carribean and african educational models probably would not work in isolation because of contextual differences.

In the end, we need a little of everything I guess. Accountability, leadership, and help.

"Don't hang up on Karl
Malone!"

"To Monty!" -Chandler Jerrell

  

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Wisdom9
Member since Sep 17th 2003
360 posts
Thu Jul-29-04 11:17 PM

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154. "RE: Some thoughts"
In response to Reply # 153
Fri Jul-30-04 12:12 AM

          

I appreciate your points, and I am essentially in agreement with you.

It is good to hear your point of view, given that you are an educator.

As far as the 'Caribbean education' thread goes, as I said earlier, it was just an idea. I wasn't offering it as some kind of cure-all panacea for our problems in the U.S. Bascially, it just seems to me that it would be an idea that might interest some sociologist somewhere to the point that they would seek funding in order to do a study on the differences in the groups' respective approaches to the US educational system.

If this kind of research was done, the results might provide some interesting insights that could be applied more broady. That is really all I was saying--it's not a major part of my thinking on this issue. It just strikes me as an interesting phenomenon, and I would like more details on how it works than just saying "Well, they succeed because their culture is different--they're not Americans."

As far as the discussion of the whole oppositional/defiant issue amongst our people, I can definitely acknowledge the validity of your point of view, given that you are down in the trenches on this. I have personally seen (and to some extent have dealt with) a goodly amount of behavior that I can only describe as disrespectful to the point where it becomes almost absurd. The same goes for the weird, ambivalent attitudes towards education and learning. If you say that this is not a major issue in your judgement, I'm glad to hear it.

However, I continue to think that these issues have cultural/historical roots that are specific to us, above and beyond any general American trends--I've just seen way too much of it, from too many different types of black folks, to believe otherwise.

As to the question of structural/systemic issues in the area of education, I definitely do not take the position that this is an insignificant part of the problem (especially since I have experienced some of the negative effects of this in my own educational experience).

What I will say, however, is that I think that there definitely is a problem in terms of black people prioritizing educational issues as one of the top two or three issues that we need to deal with in the *political* arena. While there are certainly black people who are fighting this battle in most of our major cities, I don't think that it comes close to being a top-priority political issue for us as a group.

Here's where things get sticky. You have made the point that we don't have the kind of leadership necessary to address many of the complexities of our current situation. This is true. However, the *reasons* for this are complex, as I have alluded to in my post #139. The black 'leadership' in this country, is, to a large degree, 'owned' and controlled by white elites, be they liberal or conservative. I don't believe that we will see any of these 'black leaders' mounting a truly agressive campaign to advocate for more funding for the schools, for example, because their white sponsors don't really want them to do this.


All that these sponsors really want these 'leaders' to do is come out of the woodwork during an election year and rouse up the Negroes to vote for the Democrats--you know, get up and deliver a speech that gets the crowd all hot and bothered at the Democratic National Convention, participate in the 'hip-hop' political convention, etc.. All of this stuff is just designed to get black people to think that their concerns are really going to be addressed. However, this is just a ruse--they just want your vote in the election year, and they will go right back to ignoring you as soon as it is over.

It is important to realize that a militant political campaign to critique the school system in this country specifically as it relates to blacks is going to run into problems immediately, because you are going to have to get into a criticism of the *systemic* problems in education--and that means that your argument is going to be perceived as coming from a 'blame whitey' position. It will be seen that way even if it is not explicitly stated as such.

It has been said that the 'blame whitey' trip is not really that prevalent amongst blacks, but people need to understand that when we start talking about the systemic/structural component as being *the* key to understanding these issues, we are seen as implicitly blaming our problems on 'the white man'--because ultimately that is who controls and maintains the system. The problem with this is that most white people in 2004 are not really trying to hear that--many of them believe that we are our *own* worst enemy, and that 'the system' is ultimately not to blame for our condition.

The reason why this is important is that talking about any kind of broad systemic change in education (or any other area where discrimination is taking place) is going to necessarily involve political advocacy aimed at convincing a large number of whites of the validity of this position, given that they are the majority in this country.

People forget that the Civil Rights Movement was successful to the extent that the leaders of the movement portrayed the struggle of blacks as a *moral* issue. Blacks were clearly the victims in that dynamic, and the leaders of the movement exploited this to place the segregationists in a bad light politically, as well as in the court of public opinion.

Black people are not seen as victims in this country in the same way that they were forty or fifty years ago--and this presents a huge problem for anybody who tries to put the blame on 'the system'. White people aren't really having that anymore--and our portrayal in the media nowadays is a *big* reason why (as you have pointed out in your post above).

In the course of this discussion there have been many people who have taken issue with Cosby's denunciation of the portrayal of blacks in the media. Many people today seem to see the extraordinarily negative images of blacks that are so prevalent in the media today as being 'just entertainment', trivial, and not something that should be criticized.

I understand that many people, particularly if they are younger than about 25 or 30, are not personally familiar with anything other than the current media image of blacks that exists today. It is understandable that such people would tend to identify with much of the current entertainment fare, and view it as innoccuous. It is also easy to see why they would take great exception to Cosby's comments--they view it as a personal attack on their culture. However, people who take this position are making a big mistake, in my opinion, because this image of black people as thugs, criminals, ignorant people, etc. has been *used* politically in a way that goes far beyond the world of entertainment. I think that many people fail to understand the way that this 'ignorant' type of entertainment has been used against us.

Let me state the issue bluntly: there is no way in *hell* that most white Americans in 2004 are going to entertain the idea that modern-day blacks are victims, given the popular media image of black people as happy-go-lucky, ignorant, criminally inclined, violent individuals. In this case, when I say 'media', I mean entertainment *and* news media. This is significant, because any kind of militant attack on systematic/institutionalized racism in this country today is going to be dismissed as being an example of 'blame whitey'-ism, given the dominant public image of blacks today.

Once an issue gets put into this category, most whites are simply going to tune it out--most of them really don't want to hear this kind of stuff anymore. If the majority of the country is unsympathetic to our situation, this means that broad systemic change is all but impossible--because systemic change by definition involves politics.


Why do you think that there are 1 Million black men in prison in this country--and that this is not considered an urgent or pressing issue by most white Americans? Or that there is 50% black male unemployment in New York City--and that this is not considered a pressing issue by most white New Yorkers? Our public image has taken such a beating (thanks largely to the media) that these horrendous statistics do not do anything to create concern or alarm amongst most whites (other than concern and alarm for their own personal safety from us).


Many people miss the fact that our portrayal in the media is a *key* factor in this shift in the way that we are perceived by whites, and that this dynamic has crippled us in terms of any kind of *moral* argument aimed at reforming systemic/structural racism. It is important to remember that, for many whites, their primary image of us is through the media--not through direct personal relationships with actual black people.

I think that this is one reason why Cosby has had such an angry tone in his statements. He is from the Civil Rights generation, and he understands that the *moral* aspect was the key to the success of that movement. He can also see that in 2004, black people have clearly lost the moral high ground on these issues, largely due to ability of the media to portray and spin information about us in a specific way. He also sees that many of our people have actually *embraced* this distorted portrayal of who we are--and this is where his rage comes from (at least in part), in my opinion. I am sure he feels that we have shot ourselves in the foot by celebrating these sorts of portrayals--and I'm not sure that he is wrong about this.

I think that this is why his most recent comments have been directed at the music industry. It is going to get real funky if and when prominent blacks start to make this connection, and begin to strongly criticize and target the individuals and corporations within the entertainment industry who have reaped massive profits as the result of the defamation of blacks that passes for entertainment nowadays.

People who don't understand why I identify this 'black entertainment' as defamatory need to realize that if black people were using the entertaiment industry to portray any other ethnic group in this country in the way that we are currently being portrayed, they would literally declare open war on us--no questions asked.

We are one of the only groups of people in this country who do not understand that you cannot allow your public image to be dragged through the mud in the media, if you have any hopes of realizing your long-term social and political goals.

The fact that there are black people *inside* the entertainment industry who profit from this defamation (on an individual level) makes the situation even more complex. Many of these people will fight any attempt to examine these issues tooth and nail, because the dynamic that serves to defame us (and hamstring us politically in the society at large) is the selfsame one that puts food on their table. Kinda similar to the position and role of the 'black leaders' in the political arena, isn't it?

There is a lot more I could say about this, but this is enough for now. Suffice it to say that there are a lot more fingers that are going to have to be pointed, and many more individuals who will have to be called out, before we will be able to address many of the cultural and systemic problems we face. It's not going to be pretty.


  

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jhewg
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1196 posts
Fri Jul-30-04 04:34 AM

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155. "RE: Some thoughts"
In response to Reply # 154


  

          

> As far as the 'Caribbean education' thread goes, as I
>said earlier, it was just an idea. I wasn't offering it as
>some kind of cure-all panacea for our problems in the U.S.
>Bascially, it just seems to me that it would be an idea that
>might interest some sociologist somewhere to the point that
>they would seek funding in order to do a study on the
>differences in the groups' respective approaches to the US
>educational system.
If this kind of research was done, the results might
>provide some interesting insights that could be applied more
>broady. That is really all I was saying--it's not a major
>part of my thinking on this issue. It just strikes me as an
>interesting phenomenon, and I would like more details on how
>it works than just saying "Well, they succeed because their
>culture is different--they're not Americans."

There's been some work done on it. Mary C. Waters has done some identity development work on Carribean American teens, which does incorporate some of the academic identity things we have beeen discussing. If I recall correctly (haven't looked at that study in a while) she speaks to parental work ethic and expectations, discipline, etc. There is also a degree of self-segregaation from american blacks as well. These are all common for involuntary minorities who come to the US for economic gain.
To that end, I don't know how much more research needs to be done, since we pretty much get the gist of the cultural differences already. I think dialogue is now in order, recognizing each other and sharing ideas to redefine black america for the modern era.

One thing I didn't say last time was that I do think an exchange program is a great idea. I think that would go a long way for a lot of our younger brothers and sisters, so that they can have a more comprehensive understanding of the black experience and look beyond 106 and Park.

> As far as the discussion of the whole
>oppositional/defiant issue amongst our people, I can
>definitely acknowledge the validity of your point of view,
>given that you are down in the trenches on this. I have
>personally seen (and to some extent have dealt with) a
>goodly amount of behavior that I can only describe as
>disrespectful to the point where it becomes almost absurd.
>The same goes for the weird, ambivalent attitudes towards
>education and learning. If you say that this is not a major
>issue in your judgement, I'm glad to hear it.

I beleive I said that the more radical defiance that you and others deescribe is not the norm, and a more nuanced oppositional culture exists. Ambivilance is certainly a part of that. Let me give an example:

I had a young black male student who was pretty much a D student across the board (I had him for 11th grade English). When he failed a reading quiz one time I met with him to question him on his dedication to his work. I asked him if he wanted to go to college, and he said yes. I asked him where, and he said Duke! Clearly, this student had no sense of what he had to do to really gain entrance to Duke; he did even know that he was already out of the running, at least in the immediate future. Was he ambivilant? Well, school wasn't as much of a priority for him as was work or play, but he also clearly lacked much guidance in academic matters. I garantee that had he been at an elite private institution he would have been on pace to attend, at least, a state school. Thus, I think the ambivilance that I've seen is fairly common, but is symptomatic of poor guidance in the educational sphere. Educational achievement is just not culturally relevant to many youth, but I distiguish this from outright resistance to educational achievement.

Here we see where actual research needs to be done. What are the mechanics of oppositional culture? What techniques can educators use to combat that, even for students whose parents are not helping, to put it mildly? This type of research can help us develop adequate strategies to address the cultural issues that Cosby described, at least as they pertain to education.

But also, I would be careful not to say that black youth are ambivilent towards learning, in general. They certainly are interested in identifying and retaining the information they feel is relevant to their lives, but, in generalities, it may not be the learning we want them to do.

> However, I continue to think that these issues have
>cultural/historical roots that are specific to us, above and
>beyond any general American trends--I've just seen way too
>much of it, from too many different types of black folks, to
>believe otherwise.

I agree, don't think I refuted that.

> What I will say, however, is that I think that there
>definitely is a problem in terms of black people
>prioritizing educational issues as one of the top two or
>three issues that we need to deal with in the *political*
>arena. While there are certainly black people who are
>fighting this battle in most of our major cities, I don't
>think that it comes close to being a top-priority political
>issue for us as a group.

Certainly should be.

> Here's where things get sticky. You have made the
>point that we don't have the kind of leadership necessary to
>address many of the complexities of our current situation.
>This is true. However, the *reasons* for this are complex,
>as I have alluded to in my post #139. The black
>'leadership' in this country, is, to a large degree, 'owned'
>and controlled by white elites, be they liberal or
>conservative. I don't believe that we will see any of these
>'black leaders' mounting a truly agressive campaign to
>advocate for more funding for the schools, for example,
>because their white sponsors don't really want them to do
>this.

I think you know a lot more about political infrastructures than me, but in this week of the DNC and criticism of the lack of federal funding behind the No Child Left behind Act, there are certainly people screaming for more aid on the left side of the isle. Wasn't that Bebe Winan with a "help is on the way" sign (LOL)? Anyway, I see your point in the activist realm. Them dudes still got the tag hangin' off there latte's.

> All that these sponsors really want these 'leaders' to
>do is come out of the woodwork during an election year and
>rouse up the Negroes to vote for the Democrats--you know,
>get up and deliver a speech that gets the crowd all hot and
>bothered at the Democratic National Convention, participate
>in the 'hip-hop' political convention, etc.. All of this
>stuff is just designed to get black people to think that
>their concerns are really going to be addressed. However,
>this is just a ruse--they just want your vote in the
>election year, and they will go right back to ignoring you
>as soon as it is over.

Well, I don't know. A lot of the dems actually want more money for schools, social programs, etc. Not that this is the ultimate solution, of course.

> It is important to realize that a militant political
>campaign to critique the school system in this country
>specifically as it relates to blacks is going to run into
>problems immediately, because you are going to have to get
>into a criticism of the *systemic* problems in
>education--and that means that your argument is going to be
>perceived as coming from a 'blame whitey' position. It will
>be seen that way even if it is not explicitly stated as
>such.

Yeah, whatever happened to the good ol' activist, huh? The guy or gal that would stick it to the man and say what needed to be said to bring attention to the issue! I do think that a fine line can be drawn here and the race issue can be avoided if you make that some of those arguements along class lines, as John Edwards seems to be trying to do.

> It has been said that the 'blame whitey' trip is not
>really that prevalent amongst blacks, but people need to
>understand that when we start talking about the
>systemic/structural component as being *the* key to
>understanding these issues, we are seen as implicitly
>blaming our problems on 'the white man'--because ultimately
>that is who controls and maintains the system. The problem
>with this is that most white people in 2004 are not really
>trying to hear that--many of them believe that we are our
>*own* worst enemy, and that 'the system' is ultimately not
>to blame for our condition.

I agree. Especially when you can point to the success of foreign born blacks.

> The reason why this is important is that talking about
>any kind of broad systemic change in education (or any other
>area where discrimination is taking place) is going to
>necessarily involve political advocacy aimed at convincing a
>large number of whites of the validity of this position,
>given that they are the majority in this country.

True.

> People forget that the Civil Rights Movement was
>successful to the extent that the leaders of the movement
>portrayed the struggle of blacks as a *moral* issue. Blacks
>were clearly the victims in that dynamic, and the leaders of
>the movement exploited this to place the segregationists in
>a bad light politically, as well as in the court of public
>opinion.

True. John Edwards was trying to use the moral card in his speech to, said shit was just the right thing to do, to help the poor.

> In the course of this discussion there have been many
>people who have taken issue with Cosby's denunciation of the
>portrayal of blacks in the media. Many people today seem to
>see the extraordinarily negative images of blacks that are
>so prevalent in the media today as being 'just
>entertainment', trivial, and not something that should be
>criticized.

They're dead wrong, and obviously don't understand adolescents.

> I understand that many people, particularly if they
>are younger than about 25 or 30, are not personally familiar
>with anything other than the current media image of blacks
>that exists today. It is understandable that such people
>would tend to identify with much of the current
>entertainment fare, and view it as innoccuous. It is also
>easy to see why they would take great exception to Cosby's
>comments--they view it as a personal attack on their
>culture. However, people who take this position are making
>a big mistake, in my opinion, because this image of black
>people as thugs, criminals, ignorant people, etc. has been
>*used* politically in a way that goes far beyond the world
>of entertainment. I think that many people fail to
>understand the way that this 'ignorant' type of
>entertainment has been used against us.
> Let me state the issue bluntly: there is no way in
>*hell* that most white Americans in 2004 are going to
>entertain the idea that modern-day blacks are victims, given
>the popular media image of black people as happy-go-lucky,
>ignorant, criminally inclined, violent individuals. In this
>case, when I say 'media', I mean entertainment *and* news
>media. This is significant, because any kind of militant
>attack on systematic/institutionalized racism in this
>country today is going to be dismissed as being an example
>of 'blame whitey'-ism, given the dominant public image of
>blacks today.

Yeah, the "thug next door" phenomenon.

> Once an issue gets put into this category, most whites
>are simply going to tune it out--most of them really don't
>want to hear this kind of stuff anymore. If the majority of
>the country is unsympathetic to our situation, this means
>that broad systemic change is all but impossible--because
>systemic change by definition involves politics.

Yup.

> Why do you think that there are 1 Million black men in
>prison in this country--and that this is not considered an
>urgent or pressing issue by most white Americans? Or that
>there is 50% black male unemployment in New York City--and
>that this is not considered a pressing issue by most white
>New Yorkers? Our public image has taken such a beating
>(thanks largely to the media) that these horrendous
>statistics do not do anything to create concern or alarm
>amongst most whites (other than concern and alarm for their
>own personal safety from us).

Is this indifference a new phenomenon? is the media today less sympathetic to these problems than they were 20, 30 50 years ago? Really asking here.

> Many people miss the fact that our portrayal in the
>media is a *key* factor in this shift in the way that we are
>perceived by whites, and that this dynamic has crippled us
>in terms of any kind of *moral* argument aimed at reforming
>systemic/structural racism. It is important to remember
>that, for many whites, their primary image of us is through
>the media--not through direct personal relationships with
>actual black people.

Very true.

> I think that this is one reason why Cosby has had such
>an angry tone in his statements. He is from the Civil
>Rights generation, and he understands that the *moral*
>aspect was the key to the success of that movement. He can
>also see that in 2004, black people have clearly lost the
>moral high ground on these issues, largely due to ability of
>the media to portray and spin information about us in a
>specific way. He also sees that many of our people have
>actually *embraced* this distorted portrayal of who we
>are--and this is where his rage comes from (at least in
>part), in my opinion. I am sure he feels that we have shot
>ourselves in the foot by celebrating these sorts of
>portrayals--and I'm not sure that he is wrong about this.

Have the media images had that profound an affect on policy and politics? On thing I would point out is that this exploitation of damaging black stereotypes by blacks and whites alike is no new phenomenon. Minstrel shows, which eventually began featuring blacks in charicatures of themselves, were the number 1 for of entretainment in America prior to the unveiling of the motion picture early this century. Why's it so different today?

> I think that this is why his most recent comments have
>been directed at the music industry. It is going to get
>real funky if and when prominent blacks start to make this
>connection, and begin to strongly criticize and target the
>individuals and corporations within the entertainment
>industry who have reaped massive profits as the result of
>the defamation of blacks that passes for entertainment
>nowadays.

I would love to see some strong leaders do that, but who? Which leaders are gonna get on borad do you think? And hopefully they won't just jump on the artists.

> People who don't understand why I identify this 'black
>entertainment' as defamatory need to realize that if black
>people were using the entertaiment industry to portray any
>other ethnic group in this country in the way that we are
>currently being portrayed, they would literally declare open
>war on us--no questions asked.

> We are one of the only groups of people in this country
>who do not understand that you cannot allow your public
>image to be dragged through the mud in the media, if you
>have any hopes of realizing your long-term social and
>political goals.

Truth hurts, man. But again, I think our leadership is freakin' asleep at the wheel.

> The fact that there are black people *inside* the
>entertainment industry who profit from this defamation (on
>an individual level) makes the situation even more complex.
>Many of these people will fight any attempt to examine these
>issues tooth and nail, because the dynamic that serves to
>defame us (and hamstring us politically in the society at
>large) is the selfsame one that puts food on their table.
>Kinda similar to the position and role of the 'black
>leaders' in the political arena, isn't it?
> There is a lot more I could say about this, but this
>is enough for now. Suffice it to say that there are a lot
>more fingers that are going to have to be pointed, and many
>more individuals who will have to be called out, before we
>will be able to address many of the cultural and systemic
>problems we face. It's not going to be pretty.

Word.

"Don't hang up on Karl Malone!"

"Don't hang up on Karl
Malone!"

"To Monty!" -Chandler Jerrell

  

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Wisdom9
Member since Sep 17th 2003
360 posts
Fri Jul-30-04 09:53 AM

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156. "RE: Some thoughts"
In response to Reply # 155
Fri Jul-30-04 10:15 AM

          

As far as your comments go about the dynamics of the relationship of the youth to education, that's all good information. When I refer to an ambivalent attitude toward education, I am not just speaking about the youth--it is a problem that exists among us across generations, in my experience. The young people have it because they have learned it from the older folks.

As for the media issue, there has obviously been a long tradition of negative portrayals of blacks in American media (i.e. minstrelsy), but it is important to understand that the early minstrelsy stuff was done by *whites* in blackface, not blacks.

What has happened today is that the people in the entertainment industry don't *need* whites such as Al Jolson or Eddie Cantor to make us look like fools, because there are *blacks* who are quite willing to portray even the most ignorant stereotypes about us.

Before anybody brings up the example of Amos 'n Andy, or anything like that, they need to remember that those cats *had* to do that if they wanted to work at all--there was no other choice in those days. Nowadays, the country has supposedly 'come so far' in dealing with overt racism--so why does so much of current black entertainment continue to resemble a modern version of Amos 'n Andy--but worse? It's even worse because while Amos 'n Andy were portrayed as buffoons, they weren't glorifying violence, drug dealing, or the prison life.

To be sure, the situation has *never* been good for us in the media, but anybody who is old enough to remember knows full well that the situation has become much worse in the last 10-14 years or so. I think that this is the biggest part of the 'generation gap' part of this issue--the gap occurs because people who are younger than a certain age don't really have any direct knowledge of a time when blacks were *not* portrayed in the negative way that they are today, so they can't understand why somebody like Cosby takes such exception to what is going on.

The fact is that 30 or 40 years ago, while there were negative portrayals of blacks that could be seen in the media, blacks were more *invisible* than anything else. For example, You didn't really have sitcoms or serialized TV shows specifically about blacks, with large all-black casts and stereotypically 'black' content, until the 1970s.

Again, younger people who patronize these so-called 'black' movies today probably are not aware of the reaction to Spike Lee when he began to make his presence felt in the late 1980s. He initally ran into great resistance from the establishment in the film industry, not so much because he was considered 'militant', but because many people in the industry were strong in their conviction that there wasn't really a viable market for films dealing with black youth culture from a black perspective. They didn't think it would work, but Spike proved them wrong with films like 'School Daze' and 'Do the Right Thing'.

The people in the industry obviously saw that filmmakers like Spike and John Singleton were onto something, and this opened the floodgates for all of these 'black' movies, from 15 years ago to the present time. It also opened the door for TV shows that explicitly celebrated aspects of urban youth culture and hip-hop, like 'In Living Colour'. If it had come out 25 years ago, 'In Living Colour' would *never* have been on network television in prime time--at most, it would have been a much lower profile show that was aimed primarily at blacks only, like 'Soul Train', for example.

My point is that this heavy, specific exploitation of black youth culture (particularly the whole 'thuggish' aspect) in the entertainment industry is very recent. While it has its historical antecedents, the current state of things only extends back about 15 years or so--when you start going back 20 years and more, it was a very different situation.

I mean, you couldn't really even *hear* much rap on the radio in most of America until the early to mid-90s--there were no such things as major-market commercial radio stations with an all hip-hop format before then.

If you go back and listen to the lyrical content of the music on black radio from, say 20 years ago (I'm talking about lyrical *content*, not musical style), and compare it to some of the stuff you hear today, you would think that the people who produced these musical expressions were two compeletely different groups of people *who have almost nothing to do with one another*. The fact is that while certain things in this country have worsened in the past 20 years, things haven't changed *that* much. The content of the commercialized cultural products associated with black youth has become *much* more negative than it once was, and there is a specific *reason* for this that goes beyond internal changes in the black community itself.

It is true that some things are worse in the community today, but many things are better--so why is all of this extreme negativity so prominent? It is important to remember that the overall content of the products that are referred to as 'black youth' or 'hip-hop' culture are largely controlled by *whites*, on a business level. Many of the people who are so loud in their alleigance to the current 'hip-hop' and 'black' youth culture would drop it like a bad habit if the whites that ultimately control hip-hop and commercialized black youth culture through their ownership of the motion picture studios, television networks, major record labels, film and record distribution networks, cable music video stations, movie theaters, radio stations, clothing companies, etc., pulled their money out.

This music (and the culture generally) has become a different ballgame in the last 15 years from what it was before--and it is not a coinidence that it has become much more negative as it has moved further and further into the white-dominated mainstream of the entertainment industry.

In fact, there have always been thuggish elements in our community, but until recently, they were *not* the ones that set the cultural tone for the lifestyle and public image of the community as a whole. This has occurred in the present day largely through the exploitation and dissemination of 'black' youth culture by the mainstream entertainment industry.

My point here is that the decison to emphasize the most thuggish components of our community as representative of the "real' essence of black American life and consciousness has come from *outside* of the black community itself. Black people don't control the industry, so they are not the ones who ultimately decide what does and does not get marketed and promoted. All blacks can do is respond to the demands placed on them by the people that *do* control the industry, in terms of the content of their music, movies, etc.

My point, in short, is this: whenever there are large business interests at stake, there are *also* political dynamics in play as well. If people think that the emphasis on the negative and the thuggish in current commercialized black youth culture is 'just entertainment', with no larger political and social agenda whatsoever, they are very naive indeed.

The fact is that a Civil-Rights type movement similar in thrust to the one in the 60s would be *completely* impossible today, largely because whites today are very resistant to the notion of viewing blacks as victims of an oppressive American system. There is plenty of evidence of this shift in the way that whites view black problems and issues in many posts by whites on this very board.

Without white sympathy and moral outrage, the movement in the 60s would have gone nowhere. The *reason* why whites today are so unsympathetic to us has largely to do with our portrayal in the media (again, entertainment *and* news media).

This is important because if you're talking about systemic change in this country, you're not going to get anywhere in your appeals for justice if you are seen largely as a *victimizer* and an exploiter, not a victim. What I am saying is that this emphasis on the ignorant in 'black' media portrayals has been *allowed* because it offers *political* as well as monetary dividends for those who promote it.

Another way that this can be seen is that no other group in this country would allow themselves to be portrayed in the way that we are portrayed in the media. If it is so innocuous, and it has nothing to do with any larger political issues, why are other groups so adamant that defamation *not* be directed at them through the media?

The fact is that these other groups understand something that we do not understand about the larger political and social implications of such defamation. We think it's all fun and games and a big joke, but it really isn't--it is deadly serious.

I am not suggesting that whites loved us in earlier times, or that we were treated well in the media in earlier times, but back then, we were definitely not portrayed as a bunch of ignorant, materialistic, borderline criminals who celebrate physical aggression and prison life more than we do the values of education and family. If anything, we were largely invisible and ignored by the mainstream media--and frankly, this is preferable to the current arrangement, in certain respects. If the price of admission for us is that we have to demean and defame ourselves in this way, I would rather that we were not involved with it at all.

>>I think you know a lot more about political infrastructures than me, but in this week of the DNC and criticism of the lack of federal funding behind the No Child Left behind Act, there are certainly people screaming for more aid on the left side of the isle. Wasn't that Bebe Winan with a "help is on the way" sign (LOL)?

W9: Well, my point is that DNC trots the Negroes out when it's time to regain the White House, with all of the 'no child left behind' BS. However, just watch--as soon as the election is over, all of those blacks you saw singing and shouting from the podium at the convention will be put on the back burner--until it is time for the next Convention in '08. Sorry to be so cynical, but this is what I have seen over time.

Our issues and problems are not a secret or a mystery to anybody who has taken the time to study them. The reason that they have not been addressed adequately in the political arena is not because the whites who run DNC don't know about them--it's because they don't really care about us, beyond getting our vote once every four years

>> I do think that a fine line can be drawn here and the race issue can be avoided if you make that some of those arguements along class lines, as John Edwards seems to be trying to do.

W9: Ideally this would be true, but if you look at the history of this country, the white upper classes have been very successful in getting the white working and lower classes to side with them and view us as public enemy #1 in American society (from the days of the KKK up until today). Given that we are disproportionately affected by things like unemployment and the prison industrial complex, there is going to have to be some racially-based aspects of the analysis, and that is where the problems will come in.

The fact is that there is a good deal of support for the neoconservative anti-black rhetoric that paints modern-day blacks as poverty pimps and criminals amongst the white working and lower classes, so there is much to overcome here.

> Why do you think that there are 1 Million black men in
>prison in this country--and that this is not considered an
>urgent or pressing issue by most white Americans? Or that
>there is 50% black male unemployment in New York City--and
>that this is not considered a pressing issue by most white
>New Yorkers? Our public image has taken such a beating
>(thanks largely to the media) that these horrendous
>statistics do not do anything to create concern or alarm
>amongst most whites (other than concern and alarm for their
>own personal safety from us).

>>Is this indifference a new phenomenon? is the media today less sympathetic to these problems than they were 20, 30 50 years ago? Really asking here

The issue of the current white indifference to the prison issue is very significant, because the prison population in this country 35 years ago was *nowhere near* what it is now--it was maybe a quarter of the current population, at the most. While blacks were disproportionately incarcerated back then as well, there were nowhere near 1 million individuals in prison 35 years ago in *total*, much less 1 million *blacks*. My point is that the incarceration of individuals in this country has exploded in the last 25-30 years, and black people have been the hardest hit by this phenomenon.

However, there is virtually *no* discussion of the *reasons* behind this very serious problem, and its disproportionate affect on people of color, in the mainstream American media. Why? I am saying that this has a great deal to do with the differences in the way that we are viewed today versus the way we were viewed before. If we still had the moral high ground, as we did in the 60s, this would be one of *the* issues for black activists to raise in the mainstream. The fact that it is *not* really a major issue for the country in general has to do with the fact that we are no longer viewed as victims, but as victimizers.

The employment issue is significant because 40 or 50 years ago in NYC, while there was certainly unemployment, there was also much more of a separate black economy that served the interests and needs of the black community. In other words, there were more opportunites for black business owners to employ black people in those days, so I don't think that the employment figures were quite as dire as this (unless you want to talk about the Great Depression or something). Nowadays, that black economy is largely gone in the city (along with many of the general industrial jobs that we used to hold), and a lot of brothers have been left hanging.

This is a glaring issue because it doesn't take a genius to see that any white person who is concerned with crime in NYC should be able to understand that having 50% of the brothers in New York unemployed does not exactly help the crime rate, the homelessness issue, or the overall quality of life for residents of the City. Yet, there is no real discussion amongst whites of this as a problem that *must* be addressed, and soon--for everybody's benefit. I think that this is because many whites view the problem as a reflection of the fact that we are simply incorrigible and shiftless as a group, and there is nothing that the society can (or should) do about it.

White predudice toward us is not new, but what *is* new is this perception that there is nothing that society can do to help to alleviate the problems in the black community. The media is a key reason why many whites have basically turned their backs on us in the current era, even when this goes *against* their self-interest, as in NYC.

  

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jhewg
Charter member
1196 posts
Fri Jul-30-04 10:48 AM

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158. "I certainly agree"
In response to Reply # 156


  

          

I largely agree with all that you've said here. Your analysis of the current state of blacks in the media is a riveting as it is informative. Since my area of expertise is in education, not in media sciences, I'll defer to almost all of what you said there. A couple of points:

>As far as your comments go about the dynamics of the
>relationship of the youth to education, that's all good
>information. When I refer to an ambivalent attitude toward
>education, I am not just speaking about the youth--it is a
>problem that exists among us across generations, in my
>experience. The young people have it because they have
>learned it from the older folks.

True, and I was only speaking directly to the context that you and k orr got into, that is kids in school, you know the ones that don't value education and don't respect authority. I certainly understand, though, that the issue is systemic and generational.

>As for the media issue, there has obviously been a long
>tradition of negative portrayals of blacks in American media
>(i.e. minstrelsy), but it is important to understand that
>the early minstrelsy stuff was done by *whites* in
>blackface, not blacks.

Indeed.

>What has happened today is that the people in the
>entertainment industry don't *need* whites such as Al Jolson
>or Eddie Cantor to make us look like fools, because there
>are *blacks* who are quite willing to portray even the most
>ignorant stereotypes about us.
>Before anybody brings up the example of Amos 'n Andy, or
>anything like that, they need to remember that those cats
>*had* to do that if they wanted to work at all--there was no
>other choice in those days. Nowadays, the country has
>supposedly 'come so far' in dealing with overt racism--so
>why does so much of current black entertainment continue to
>resemble a modern version of Amos 'n Andy--but worse? It's
>even worse because while Amos 'n Andy were portrayed as
>buffoons, they weren't glorifying violence, drug dealing, or
>the prison life.

Sure the modern portrayals are in many ways, *worse*. But the motivations of these thespians are in many ways the same as there minstrel forefathers: to get paid. It's the hollywood shuffle syndrome, brah. They get offered a spot in the movie to play a thug, or are offered a record deal with the understanding that they wll adhere to a certain image and sound, and they take it, regardless of their desires or wealth of talent. I don't think its fair to say that blacks "had to" take those roles way back when, because if your poor or even middle class today, and you know you can instantly raise your economic standing by rapping, acting, writing in these ways, you face the same fundamental dilemma that Bert Williams and others faced.

>To be sure, the situation has *never* been good for us in
>the media, but anybody who is old enough to remember knows
>full well that the situation has become much worse in the
>last 10-14 years or so. I think that this is the biggest
>part of the 'generation gap' part of this issue--the gap
>occurs because people who are younger than a certain age
>don't really have any direct knowledge of a time when blacks
>were *not* portrayed in the negative way that they are
>today, so they can't understand why somebody like Cosby
>takes such exception to what is going on.
>The fact is that 30 or 40 years ago, while there were
>negative portrayals of blacks that could be seen in the
>media, blacks were more *invisible* than anything else. For
>example, You didn't really have sitcoms or serialized TV
>shows specifically about blacks, with large all-black casts
>and stereotypically 'black' content, until the 1970s.

While these facts are true, the impact is subject to debate. From what I know, the protrayal of blacks in the media has always corresponded with certain social and political agendas.
The early minstrel shows featured white characters playing on the childlike follies of the sambo, and suggested a certain need for caretaking on the part of white america (a certain slavery nostalgia). Later, as blacks began to compete with whites for economic position after the migration north, you saw a more savage portrayal of blacks, particularly in film (Birth of a Nation, anyone?) Over time blacks have been seen in more human light, but still rarely represent the wholistic and rounded dramatic figures that we have today, as illustrated by the oscar drought (and I won't get into the irony of the eventual wins). Also, let's remember that this historical negative and one-demensional portrayal of blacks came at a time when there was far less interaction between blacks and whites. If you went to a mistrel show, that might be the only thing you know about black america. I wouldn't underestimate the impact of those portrayals, even when today there seems to be more pervasive negative images. Also, while today there are certainly a lot of negative images in the media of blacks, there are definitely WAY MORE positive ones. Thus, while white america gets a dose of 50 cent, it also gets a dose of Smart Guy.

Whereas 20,50, or 100 years ago the media portrayal lead to a more universal characterization of blacks, the danger today, in my opinion, is two-fold:
1) A perceived black dichotomy, where white americans begin to characterize the urban black underclass with these negative perceptions and view successful blacks as a different breed
2) The fact that black youth tend to identify with the negative media images rather than more positive ones.

The effects on our youth are alarming, and the irony of who's really behind the mass production of these images, as you point our, is a huge problem.

In all, I wouldn't characterize the media protrayals today as more problematic than they have been historically. They're just problematic in a different way. And I don't think that the prominence of thug images is the reason whites have "turned their back on us." In Fact, I tend to think that it's more because of the visibile economic success that the black middle class has had. It gives them someone to point to and say, "Look, it's possible! Stop whinning."

ďWe have to face the very
real possibility that the
President of the United
States is loony tunesĒ -
unnamed Republican source

"Don't hang up on Karl
Malone!"

"To Monty!" -Chandler Jerrell

  

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Wisdom9
Member since Sep 17th 2003
360 posts
Fri Jul-30-04 02:19 PM

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159. "RE: I certainly agree"
In response to Reply # 158
Fri Jul-30-04 02:32 PM

          

>To be sure, the situation has *never* been good for us in
>the media, but anybody who is old enough to remember knows
>full well that the situation has become much worse in the
>last 10-14 years or so. I think that this is the biggest
>part of the 'generation gap' part of this issue--the gap
>occurs because people who are younger than a certain age
>don't really have any direct knowledge of a time when blacks
>were *not* portrayed in the negative way that they are
>today, so they can't understand why somebody like Cosby
>takes such exception to what is going on.
>The fact is that 30 or 40 years ago, while there were
>negative portrayals of blacks that could be seen in the
>media, blacks were more *invisible* than anything else. For
>example, You didn't really have sitcoms or serialized TV
>shows specifically about blacks, with large all-black casts
>and stereotypically 'black' content, until the 1970s.

>>>While these facts are true, the impact is subject to debate. From what I know, the protrayal of blacks in the media has always corresponded with certain social and political agendas.
The early minstrel shows featured white characters playing on the childlike follies of the sambo, and suggested a certain need for caretaking on the part of white america (a certain slavery nostalgia). Later, as blacks began to compete with whites for economic position after the migration north, you saw a more savage portrayal of blacks, particularly in film (Birth of a Nation, anyone?) Over time blacks have been seen in more human light, but still rarely represent the wholistic and rounded dramatic figures that we have today, as illustrated by the oscar drought (and I won't get into the irony of the eventual wins). Also, let's remember that this historical negative and one-demensional portrayal of blacks came at a time when there was far less interaction between blacks and whites. If you went to a mistrel show, that might be the only thing you know about black america. I wouldn't underestimate the impact of those portrayals, even when today there seems to be more pervasive negative images. Also, while today there are certainly a lot of negative images in the media of blacks, there are definitely WAY MORE positive ones. Thus, while white america gets a dose of 50 cent, it also gets a dose of Smart Guy.

W9: I'm not suggesting that the earlier portrayals were not political or harmful in nature. What I said is that there is a specific kind of *escalation* at work here that goes beyond what we have seen in the past.

I mean, the main 'black' character in 'Birth of a Nation' was played by a white person in blackface, but today there is no need for this--there are plenty of blacks who can be called upon to play the role of the murdering, thuggish individual. This is my point--the current dynamic is designed to create the *illusion* of black progress (which confuses whites and blacks), but at the same time, it *continues* to defame us, and invalidates our claims to the moral high ground as well.

The particulars of the current situation are directly related to the impact of the civil rights movement, in that there is not just a need to defame blacks in a blatantly white-dominated context (i.e. whites in blackface), but to bring blacks *to center stage* in their own defamation, in order to legitimize the view that blacks can no longer be viewed as the victims of an exclusionary racial system, as they were in the 60s and before. As I said, there are clear antecedents, but the specific focus on black individuals as marauders and sociopatic criminals, *with blacks playing the roles themselves*, is new, and has political as well as business underpinnings.

'Smart Guy' is great and all, but this does not mean that our portrayal in the media is balanced, by any stretch of the imagination. The ignorant aspect definitely continues to predominate, in one way or another, from what I can see.

>>In all, I wouldn't characterize the media protrayals today as more problematic than they have been historically. They're just problematic in a different way. And I don't think that the prominence of thug images is the reason whites have "turned their back on us." In Fact, I tend to think that it's more because of the visibile economic success that the black middle class has had. It gives them someone to point to and say, "Look, it's possible! Stop whinning."

W9: But this goes toward my initial point. The portrayal of the of the emergent black middle class in the media (in this case the news media) as being a 'different breed' is politically motivated, both for the purposes of turning whites against the black underclass, and turning the middle class blacks themselves against poor blacks.

The real story of the black middle class is not told--for example that Affirmative Action played a key role, or that most blacks are not more than a generation removed from poverty. Why? Because the media has portrayed this dynamic as coming solely from the Horatio Alger-like determination of the truly hardworking blacks who had 'the right stuff', when the real story is much more complex. The story is simplified because there are political reasons for people not to want to deal with the fact that government programs (many of which no longer exist today) played a key role in the rise of the black middle class, and that the elimination of these programs has a lot to do with the underclass' lack of upward mobility today.

>>Sure the modern portrayals are in many ways, *worse*. But the motivations of these thespians are in many ways the same as there minstrel forefathers: to get paid. It's the hollywood shuffle syndrome, brah. They get offered a spot in the movie to play a thug, or are offered a record deal with the understanding that they wll adhere to a certain image and sound, and they take it, regardless of their desires or wealth of talent. I don't think its fair to say that blacks "had to" take those roles way back when, because if your poor or even middle class today, and you know you can instantly raise your economic standing by rapping, acting, writing in these ways, you face the same fundamental dilemma that Bert Williams and others faced.


W9: Again, my point is not that there are no historical precedents, but that there is an effort to create an *illusion* of black progress by pointing to superficial black involvement in the entertainment industry. I can understand the position of the people who were involved with Amos 'n Andy--segregation and de facto apartheid were still dominant in this country at that time.

But nowadays, there are plenty of blacks (as you have pointed out) that are upwardly mobile and educated, unlike 40 or 50 years ago. De jure segregation, and the limitations it placed on the career choices of blacks in the entertainment industry, are a thing of the past. But yet our image in the media is not just buffoonish (a la Amos n' Andy, et al.), it is outright *violent* to an extent that it was not before (again I'm talking about black people playing these roles, not whites in blackface).

My point is this: that the shift from blacks playing the role of bufoon to that of a violent, self-destructive agressor is significant, and it reflects political agendas as much as financial ones. In the end, it is still possible to see a buffoon as a victim (educationally disadvantaged, etc.), but it is much more difficult to see a murderous thug who celebrates the violent aspects of their lifestyle as a victim. This shift has a significance that is ultimately political in nature, in a way that is qualitatively different from the preceeding dynamic.

As to the 'Hollywood Shuffle' syndrome, that doesn't really have to do with my point. While I did mention the limited options of earlier black actors, I also said that the industry is not controlled by blacks, so clearly blacks have never been the ones to dictate what kinds of roles they are going to play. I'm not really confused about why *individual* blacks in the entertainment industry continue to do this--my concern is that there is no real *recognition* on the part of the black community at large that we are being manipulated for *political* reasons, *not* just economic reasons, and that a political analysis and response to this defamation is needed.

The reason why I don't blame the black actors of the pre-civil rights era is that we as a people didn't have the economic, educational, or political standing, either in the entertainment industry or the society at large, to mount a serious challenge to the discrimination that existed at that time. But that excuse cannot be made today, with all of the money that black people put into the entertainment industry on a yearly basis, with much of it going to the most ignorant stuff imaginable.

We have too many educated and upwardly mobile people in our community to allow the same kinds of discrimination to be leveled against us as existed 50 or 60 years ago. Yet, other than the voice of Cosby and precious few other prominent blacks, there is virtually no analysis of the continued exploitation of our people in the media--and no linkage made between this dynamic and the fact that whites are not particularly sympathetic to our struggle anymore.

The popular portrayal of the rise of the black middle class that is used by whites to distance themselves from the struggles of the black underclass is just as much a creation of media spin as that of the black gangster--and it is just as false, in many ways. In fact, the portrayals of the news media are intertwined and integrated with those of the entertainment industry. Whether you are talking about the head or the tail, you're still talking about the same snake.


>>>While these facts are true, the impact is subject to debate. From what I know, the protrayal of blacks in the media has always corresponded with certain social and political agendas.

W9: Well, this is where we disagree. While politics (racial and otherwise) have always had an impact on the media, 50 years ago, there were *not* 1 Million blacks in prison. Out-of wedlock-childbirths and the number of children growing up in single-parent homes were not anywhere near the rates that exist today in the black community. Black youth, while largely poor and uneducated, were not being socialized to be criminals, deadbeat dads, and thugs by the *mass media*.

My point here is that the current negative portrayal of blacks in the media *with full black participation* has played a key role in confusing all Americans about the sources of these very severe problems. When faced with the popular image of blacks as brutal thugs and gangsters, many non-blacks just go back to the old idea that there is something wrong with us as a people, and that there is nothing that society should do to remedy the situation. This serves to cut black people off from any potential alliances with the broader non-black community to solve these issues. It turns formerly sympathetic whites and others against blacks, and it also turns blacks against each other (upper classes against lower).

This serves to *negate* many of the gains and alliances that came out of the civil rights movement, and it is a much more subtle dynamic than the defamation from before the Civil Rights era.

Blacks in earlier times, while opressed, were simply *not* so confused as to literally *celebrate* and *embrace* the patterns of violence and self-destructiveness that were contributing to the assasination of their image in the mass media, and in turn to their demise as a people. The fact that many blacks do this today, despite the fact that it just intensifies the negative trends I have referred to above, is an indicator of the widespread confusion amongst many of our people.

Back in the days, many, if not most, regular black people *knew* that Amos 'n Andy was screwed up--and they also knew that those brothers didn't have any real choice but to do that, unless they wanted to spend the rest of their lives relegated to the black vaudeville circuit. But many of our people today are much more *confused* about the prevailing reality, because they see the ignorant black entertainment of today as an indication of black power and agency in the entertainment industry, when it is in fact an indication *of the exact opposite*.

In some senses, the 'entertainment industry' has literally become a 'black defamation industry'--and many black people do not understand this.

Additionally, black people continue to see the 'ignorant' route as being the only one that is available to us--*but this is no longer the case*. Unlike 50 years ago, we can now successfully fight our enemies in the media industry through economic and political means--but we have to *wake up* to what is being done to us through the media in order to do this.

The main difference in the black-related media of the past and that of the present is that in the past, shows like Amos 'n Andy were primarily intended for *white* people--they confirmed white stereotypes about blacks that enabled whites to feel comfortable about the status quo. But today, a significant portion of the 'ignorant' black entertainment serves the *dual* purpose of not only reasurring whites, but *deceiving* blacks themselves. This is designed to get blacks to commit social suicide, seemingly of their own volition, without any overt white involvement. It's an escalation of the previous tactics, and a lot of our people are clueless about it.

The minstrel shows, Amos 'n Andy, etc, were not really geared toward confusing blacks per se--although there were obviously some blacks who *were* confused by these portrayals. The 'ignorant' entertainment today is much more insidious precisely *because* of the fact that blacks have more of a superficial figurehead status in the industry than they did in earlier times.

If there are black executives, writers, actors, film directors, TV stars, etc., who produce this garbage today, this ultimately serves to *confuse* blacks who are seeking to identify the true source of the problem. It gives the appearance that we are *doing this to ourselves*, when this is not really the case. Every black person with any brains knew that while Amos 'n Andy were black, that the ultimate control of the content of that program resided with the *white* people who produced the
show for the benefit of the white-owned network. The lines were much more clearly drawn in those days--people who were paying attention could see the defamation for what it was much more easily.

Nowadays, black people fully identify with and 'own' this mess coming from the entertainment industry--and they even consider it to be a badge of 'authentic blackness'. The difference is not in the fundamental *tactics* that are employed--the difference can be seen in the profound *confusion* that has been engendered in the community itself with regard to the *source* of these stereotypical projections.

Man, when 'Birth of a Nation' came out, believe me, black people were *not* confused about what was going on with that situation--they were being defamed by white people. Now, black people see a *black* individual who is perpetrating these same stereotypes (but who is also employed by the same white-dominated elites), and they say, 'This is who we really are--we're niggers!'.

This confusion is why the earlier blacks were more organized and militant than the people today, despite the fact that they had far fewer resources as a group, in terms of wealth and education. They were under terrible opression, but they *knew* who their enemies were--we cannot say the same for many of our people today. The lines have been *blurred* in the current era, and this is a big reason for the apathy and confusion that prevails amongst some of us today.

This 'blurring' dynamic constitutes a major escalation and intensification of white supremacy--it cannot be reduced to a mere continuation of past patterns of defamation. There is going to have to be some serious analysis of this phenomenon that comes out of the black community soon--or we are on the way out as a group of people.

  

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jhewg
Charter member
1196 posts
Sat Jul-31-04 09:17 AM

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160. "You've dun it"
In response to Reply # 159


  

          

You've exhausted me. I still do contend a couple of your assertions, and I'll see if i can muster the strength for another response in the next day or two.

Much respect.

ďWe have to face the very
real possibility that the
President of the United
States is loony tunesĒ -
unnamed Republican source

"Don't hang up on Karl
Malone!"

"To Monty!" -Chandler Jerrell

  

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LegacyNS
Member since Jan 16th 2004
38046 posts
Thu Jul-08-04 08:35 AM

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126. "RE: Cosby"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          



Well,

It might anger folx but Cosby is on target. Cosby has always supported black folx & continues to do so, (
http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/07/08/cosby.students.ap/index.html )

yet he's frowned up for making statements like this,...

"You've got to stop beating up your women because you can't find a job, because you didn't want to get an education and now you're (earning) minimum wage," Cosby said. "You should have thought more of yourself when you were in high school, when you had an opportunity."


Yet, Jadakiss can have a rap lyrics like

"Why they stop lettin' niggaz get degreez in jail"

& it receives absolutely no critique? As if most folx we know didn't have the opportunity to go to high school & get good grades for scholarships, etc. Maybe the question that needs to be asked is why weren't these folx pursuing degrees B4 they went to jail? C'mon y'all, we gotta call this nonsense when we hear it.

No one is stupid enough to think that racism, discrimination, etc ceases to exist but we gotta be honest about the squandered opportunities in the lives of a lot of folx that has them trapped in undesirable lifestyles.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<---- 5....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlgiritpmfo

=======================================

  

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ovBismarck
Charter member
1868 posts
Sat Jul-10-04 08:02 PM

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145. "RE: Cosby"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://blackamericaweb.tomjoyner.com/site.aspx/headlines/chapelle619

-------------
A seal walks into a club.

  

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buttersoul
Member since Mar 04th 2003
12457 posts
Wed Jul-28-04 03:29 AM

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148. "Bill should"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"have a coke and a smile and shut the fuck up." ~Eddie Murphy
Thats all that needs to be said about him.
While he was making his ass backwards comments he had on sunglasses. He couldnt look his audience in the eye or show his eyes to the camera when he was spewing off at the mouth. WTF is that? Some ol' bull ish. I think there is some validity in what he was saying but he is in NO position to be so judgmental of lives he has no idea about. WHATEVER this topic shouldn't get no more airtime. It's stoopid to have a part 2 on this discussion...NEXT SUBJECT!

"What people think of me is none
of my business."
~O. Winfrey

http://afeni.com/

_____________________________________________________

"You are more desirable as a servant of the machine, than as a free thinker." ~De La Vega

  

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HUSL06
Member since Nov 05th 2004
3810 posts
Wed Jul-28-04 09:47 AM

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151. "And I co-sign that.."
In response to Reply # 148


  

          

...like I got good credit!!

Check out my wife's blog about our son at www.thencameisaiah.blogspot.com

  

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