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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
5663 posts
Tue May-20-03 06:16 AM

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"God, evil, omnipotence"


  

          

What do you think of this quote:

Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god?
- Epicurus, Greek philosopher (342-270 BC)


{I have another post in the archives dealing with God, omnipotence and free will, that is partially relevant to this:
http://www.okayplayer.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=13950&forum=DCForumID1&viewmode=threaded }

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
RE: God, evil, omnipotence
May 20th 2003
1
RE: God, evil, omnipotence
May 20th 2003
2
RE: God, evil, omnipotence
May 20th 2003
6
why dodge the lighting bolt?
May 22nd 2003
23
      I look at the bible and paradise lost
May 23rd 2003
29
           like my teacher told me...
May 23rd 2003
30
RE: God, evil, omnipotence
May 20th 2003
7
good analogy but...
May 22nd 2003
24
      RE: good analogy but...
May 22nd 2003
25
RE: God, evil, omnipotence
May 21st 2003
11
      I want to reply when I have more time...
May 21st 2003
18
           look forward to hearing from you
May 22nd 2003
22
                RE: look forward to hearing from you
May 25th 2003
33
                It's not about having it both ways
May 25th 2003
34
                RE: It's not about having it both ways
May 25th 2003
35
                RE: look forward to hearing from you
May 27th 2003
40
                okay...
May 29th 2003
41
                do you believe Christ to be the Son of God..
May 29th 2003
43
                on my own terms
Jun 13th 2003
54
                     RE: on my own terms
Jun 13th 2003
55
                let's deal with what you think are contradications:
Jun 09th 2003
51
                     RE: let's deal with what you think are contradications:
Jun 10th 2003
52
                     RE: let's deal with what you think are contradications:
Jun 10th 2003
53
                PS
May 29th 2003
42
                     Thank you for your time
May 29th 2003
44
RE: God, evil, omnipotence
May 20th 2003
4
      why is it hard to believe
May 21st 2003
13
           After the flood,
May 21st 2003
15
           back up a little
May 21st 2003
16
           if god is perfect
Jun 20th 2003
60
He should be showing up any minute now....
May 20th 2003
3
RE: He should be showing up any minute now....
May 20th 2003
5
dont spend your money if it ainet bread
May 25th 2003
31
and Lord knows I cant wait
May 23rd 2003
28
SWEET...
May 20th 2003
8
RE: SWEET...
May 20th 2003
9
I disagree
Jun 20th 2003
61
I think you made a few mistakes
May 21st 2003
10
      RE: I think you made a few mistakes
May 21st 2003
12
      RE: I think you made a few mistakes
May 21st 2003
19
RE: God, evil, omnipotence
May 21st 2003
14
Good points
May 21st 2003
17
      RE: Good points
May 22nd 2003
26
RE: God, evil, omnipotence
May 21st 2003
20
RE: God, evil, omnipotence
May 21st 2003
21
Simple.
May 22nd 2003
27
RE: the real question
May 25th 2003
32
      "god" is not a person or thing
May 25th 2003
36
      RE: the real question
May 25th 2003
37
           RE: the real question
May 25th 2003
38
                Taosim
Jul 17th 2003
75
RE: God, evil, omnipotence
May 26th 2003
39
RE: God, evil, omnipotence
May 29th 2003
45
RE: God, evil, omnipotence
Jun 01st 2003
46
RE: God, evil, omnipotence
Jun 01st 2003
47
God is the name of the species
Jun 02nd 2003
48
I wrote a long reply
Jul 07th 2003
73
Up
Jun 09th 2003
49
What is the definition of evil?
Jun 09th 2003
50
It's hard to define evil w/o universal morality
Jun 26th 2003
63
RE: God, evil, omnipotence
Jun 20th 2003
56
He?
Jun 20th 2003
57
Interesting
Jun 20th 2003
58
It's all personal
Jun 20th 2003
62
This is one of the reasons i don't believe
Jun 20th 2003
59
I read Isaiah 45:7 which says "I form light and create.
Jun 26th 2003
64
Wow - this verse helps my argument...
Jul 02nd 2003
65
      God proves man thru satan
Jul 02nd 2003
66
           RE: God proves man thru satan
Jul 02nd 2003
67
                RE: God proves man thru satan
Jul 02nd 2003
68
                     I agree about...
Jul 03rd 2003
69
                          RE: I agree about...
Jul 04th 2003
70
                          this my help
Jul 06th 2003
71
                               RE: this my help
Jul 06th 2003
72
Archive
Jul 17th 2003
74
RE: God, evil, omnipotence
Jul 17th 2003
76
Well when do you stop role playing in life???
Jul 17th 2003
77

Trinity444
Charter member
41702 posts
Tue May-20-03 06:45 AM

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1. "RE: God, evil, omnipotence"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>What do you think of this quote:

scientist deal with theories, I will deal with what God has to say.


>Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not
>omnipotent.

I believe your missing the whole message. This is probably because your not a believer. First go back and understand why he hasnt destroy this world YET, then you will understand why evil is allowed to exist. As a clue, it all goes back to the convanent he made with His chosen nation.

>Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Naw, He just keep His word

>Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

because we live in a world where people like to lean toward their own understanding.

>Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god?
>- Epicurus, Greek philosopher (342-270 BC)

I dont believe this therefore I wont answer.

  

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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
5663 posts
Tue May-20-03 07:15 AM

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2. "RE: God, evil, omnipotence"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

>I believe your missing the whole message. This is probably
>because your not a believer.

I believe in God. I just don't believe that the Bible is infallible truth. It can't be taken literally - there's too many contradictions and things that just don't make sense. But let's not go down that road, because we'll end up agreeing to disagree.

>>Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
>
>Naw, He just keep His word

This is the one that interests me the most, because I wonder if people ever stop to consider that maybe God is malevolent.
I mean, He puts us through all the awful shit in the world: pain, sorrow, loss, poverty, oppression, rape, murder, racism, hatred, etc. If he's omnipotent, He could easily prevent it. But He created evil and allows it to continue to exist - why?

I would never let someone I love go through that stuff if it was in my power to prevent it. So, how do we know he is inherently "good" and really loves us? How do we know that this life is not just one big game/experiment for God's amusement?

Of course, one could also take the stance that God is neither good nor evil, neither beneficent nor malevolent, because He is above and beyond such concepts. That discussion doesn't really go anywhere though.

  

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keithdawg
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5593 posts
Tue May-20-03 10:45 AM

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6. "RE: God, evil, omnipotence"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

>This is the one that interests me the most, because I wonder
>if people ever stop to consider that maybe God is
>malevolent.
>I mean, He puts us through all the awful shit in the world:
>pain, sorrow, loss, poverty, oppression, rape, murder,
>racism, hatred, etc. If he's omnipotent, He could easily
>prevent it. But He created evil and allows it to continue to
>exist - why?

I'm not a Christian, but I'm familiar with a common answer to this question amongst many theologians.

Before the fall, humankind (adam & eve) were simply granted a free pass to paradise for eternity, without ever having to make any choices, prove their loyalty or earn such a privelege.

Upon the fall, Satan took the form of the Serpent, evil was introduced to the world through the famous apple, Adam, Eve and the future of humanity was corrupted, and human beings no longer had an automatic greenlight to eternal paradise.

This serves God purposes, because Jesus' crucifiction offers humanity an opportunity for redemption and salvation through faith, penitence and begging for forgiveness and alas, humans must 'deserve' to go to heaven in order to be sent upward.

Cool story, I like it, Milton's "Paradise Lost" is one of the best pieces of literature from the middle era of the second millenium (much better than anything in the bible *dodges lighting bolt*.

>I would never let someone I love go through that stuff if it
>was in my power to prevent it. So, how do we know he is
>inherently "good" and really loves us? How do we know that
>this life is not just one big game/experiment for God's
>amusement?
>
>Of course, one could also take the stance that God is
>neither good nor evil, neither beneficent nor malevolent,
>because He is above and beyond such concepts. That
>discussion doesn't really go anywhere though.

"If life is prison, then music is the yardtime"--Gift of Gab

"I've been a big genesis fan ... take the lyrics to "Land of Confusion," in which a singer addresses the problem of abusive political authority. This is laid down with a groove funkier and blacker than anything Prince or Michael Jackson-or any other black artist of recent years, for that matter-has come up with ... yet as danceable as the album is, it also has a stripped-down urgency that not even the overrated Bruce Springsteen can equal"--American Psycho

"I'm tryin' to read your poetry but I'm helpless like a rich man's child"--Bob Dylan

"The only thing you owe the past is wasted time"--Beck

Do yourself a favor,
Be your own savior.

Daniel Johnston

  

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Trinity444
Charter member
41702 posts
Thu May-22-03 09:01 AM

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23. "why dodge the lighting bolt?"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

>I'm not a Christian, but I'm familiar with a common answer
>to this question amongst many theologians.

this is the answer among theologians

>Cool story, I like it, Milton's "Paradise Lost" is one of
>the best pieces of literature from the middle era of the
>second millenium (much better than anything in the bible
>*dodges lighting bolt*.

How can you compare what is written in this book with what the Almighty says? how do you justify it?

  

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keithdawg
Charter member
5593 posts
Fri May-23-03 03:31 AM

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29. "I look at the bible and paradise lost"
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

as equally fictitious ... except milton's work is written with more depth and beauty. However, both texts are full of powerful stories that anyone can learn from (so long as you ignore the bigotry exuded in the Bible).

Even if I were to accept Jesus as the solitary messenger of God, I think its fairly obvious that the text of the Bible has suffered some extreme distortion through translation and the disciples transposing of Jesus' words onto paper.

Jokes about the lightning bolt.

"If life is prison, then music is the yardtime"--Gift of Gab

"I've been a big genesis fan ... take the lyrics to "Land of Confusion," in which a singer addresses the problem of abusive political authority. This is laid down with a groove funkier and blacker than anything Prince or Michael Jackson-or any other black artist of recent years, for that matter-has come up with ... yet as danceable as the album is, it also has a stripped-down urgency that not even the overrated Bruce Springsteen can equal"--American Psycho

"I'm tryin' to read your poetry but I'm helpless like a rich man's child"--Bob Dylan

"The only thing you owe the past is wasted time"--Beck

Do yourself a favor,
Be your own savior.

Daniel Johnston

  

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Trinity444
Charter member
41702 posts
Fri May-23-03 03:52 AM

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30. "like my teacher told me..."
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

>as equally fictitious ... except milton's work is written
>with more depth and beauty. However, both texts are full of
>powerful stories that anyone can learn from (so long as you
>ignore the bigotry exuded in the Bible).

you dont compare the bible to other books, you compare other books to the bible. beauty is found in the bible you just have to get some understanding of it. would you mind giving me an example of the bigotry that you think the bible puts forth?

>Even if I were to accept Jesus as the solitary messenger of
>God, I think its fairly obvious that the text of the Bible
>has suffered some extreme distortion through translation and
>the disciples transposing of Jesus' words onto paper.

only thing obvious is how MAN has distorted the bible because God
dont change.


  

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kid
Member since Jul 10th 2002
4436 posts
Tue May-20-03 02:52 PM

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7. "RE: God, evil, omnipotence"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          


>I would never let someone I love go through that stuff if it
>was in my power to prevent it.

I always considered it to be like, (and this is an outsider to the religon, don't jump down my throat.) Your child needs to learn to ride a bike. But keeps falling due to differant reasons, (doesn't matter what) You watch to make sure everything is okay, but are forced to watch as he/she falls down and gets hurt repeatedly. You can easily stop this, but for the childs benefit, you let the learning continue.

Obviously this isn't a good analogy, but I hope you catch my drift. If this is still around I'll build on it tomarrow, hopefully my thoughts will come easier, It's been a long day.

***********************************
StLOKp's�: DawgEatah, Dstl1, hyde, Colonel Sanders, MisterGrump, Afrotec, Instant_Vintage, ThaTruth, Soul1908, SefConscious, Baldheadslik, YngblkprinceMD, 314confidential, rdiggity, Kid

Honorable mention:auragin_boi

  

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Trinity444
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41702 posts
Thu May-22-03 09:39 AM

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24. "good analogy but..."
In response to Reply # 7


  

          


your child needs to learn to ride a bike, you give instructions on how your child is to ride this bike and the child agreeds. The child does not listen but choose to learn to ride the bike the way they wanna learn. The child falls and get hurts all the time. Yeah you can stop it but this is for the childs benefit because you already put forth your instructions. The learning continues but if the child really wanna learn how to ride that bike they'll listen and learn.

  

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kid
Member since Jul 10th 2002
4436 posts
Thu May-22-03 11:34 AM

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25. "RE: good analogy but..."
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

Yeah, that is a little better. UP

***********************************
StLOKp's�: DawgEatah, Dstl1, hyde, Colonel Sanders, MisterGrump, Afrotec, Instant_Vintage, ThaTruth, Soul1908, SefConscious, Baldheadslik, YngblkprinceMD, 314confidential, rdiggity, Kid

Honorable mention:auragin_boi

  

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Trinity444
Charter member
41702 posts
Wed May-21-03 03:54 AM

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11. "RE: God, evil, omnipotence"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

>I believe in God. I just don't believe that the Bible is
>infallible truth. It can't be taken literally - there's too
>many contradictions and things that just don't make sense.
>But let's not go down that road, because we'll end up
>agreeing to disagree.

this is a road we need to go down first because if you say you believe in God then you believe in His word. If you have read the Bible then you know this is the only way you are going to learn about Him. I'm willing to go thru what you call contradiction and the things that dont make sense. There is nothing contradicting about the book, it's like you said, " things dont make sense". They will once you get an understanding.


>This is the one that interests me the most, because I wonder
>if people ever stop to consider that maybe God is
>malevolent.
>I mean, He puts us through all the awful shit in the world:
>pain, sorrow, loss, poverty, oppression, rape, murder,
>racism, hatred, etc. If he's omnipotent, He could easily
>prevent it. But He created evil and allows it to continue to
>exist - why?

"He" dont put us thru anything, we put ourselves in these situations. God's way of life dont create these kinds of people. Yes he could easly destroy the world but God is merciful, each day we are given a chance to come on His side instead of him destroying us, be thankful for this. But this is a common response, non believers cant grasp why God allows evil to exist you must read it for yourself. That's really the only way you will get it!


>I would never let someone I love go through that stuff if it
>was in my power to prevent it. So, how do we know he is
>inherently "good" and really loves us? How do we know that
>this life is not just one big game/experiment for God's
>amusement?
>
>Of course, one could also take the stance that God is
>neither good nor evil, neither beneficent nor malevolent,
>because He is above and beyond such concepts. That
>discussion doesn't really go anywhere though.


Quick question for you: If someone you "loved" ( in a true sense) repeatedly disobeyed you, what would you do?

  

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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
5663 posts
Wed May-21-03 08:54 AM

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18. "I want to reply when I have more time..."
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

But I'll be busy the next several days... If this post is still around on Monday or Tuesday, I'll reply more fully. For now:

>this is a road we need to go down first because if you say
>you believe in God then you believe in His word. If you
>have read the Bible then you know this is the only way you
>are going to learn about Him.

I've read some of the Bible (haven't read it cover to cover or anything), but I'm not convinced that it is the only place to find God's word or learn about Him. I think it is a divinely inspired book, but I definitely don't think it's a perfect interpretation of God's word - for one thing, the only version I can read is the English translation, and it's inconceivable to me that this version is the exact same in meaning and context as the original versions.

I'm willing to go thru what
>you call contradiction and the things that dont make sense.
>There is nothing contradicting about the book, it's like you
>said, " things dont make sense". They will once you get an
>understanding.

I have a book that details all the contradictions, and gives citations (and I've checked some of them). There's a lot of them. I'll pull out some of the more obvious ones when I get time.

>"He" dont put us thru anything, we put ourselves in these
>situations.

But He created everything, so He set these situations up, and allows them to happen. And a good, pious Christian woman who is attacked in the parking lot of the grocery store did not "put herself in any situation" that justified what happened. Living a pious Christian life doesn't protect you from being robbed/raped/maimed/murdered/etc.

God's way of life dont create these kinds of
>people.

Tell that to pedophiliac priests and all the others who have murdered and done so much evil in God's name.
Some of the most moral people I know are not Christian (of course, some are)... But also, some of the least moral people I know are Christian too...

Yes he could easly destroy the world but God is
>merciful, each day we are given a chance to come on His side
>instead of him destroying us, be thankful for this. But
>this is a common response, non believers cant grasp why God
>allows evil to exist you must read it for yourself. That's
>really the only way you will get it!

Interesting... I'll have to think about this.

>Quick question for you: If someone you "loved" ( in a true
>sense) repeatedly disobeyed you, what would you do?

Hard to say. I definitely wouldn't hurt them for disobeying me. I don't expect people I love to obey me (unless it's a child, which is a totally separate subject). For example, if I told my wife we don't need a new car and she goes out and buys one anyway, I'd be pretty angry and frustrated, but I wouldn't want to hurt her or cause her pain... Give me a better example, because I can't really figure out what you're getting at here...

  

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Trinity444
Charter member
41702 posts
Thu May-22-03 06:34 AM

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22. "look forward to hearing from you"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

>I've read some of the Bible (haven't read it cover to cover
>or anything), but I'm not convinced that it is the only
>place to find God's word or learn about Him. I think it is a
>divinely inspired book, but I definitely don't think it's a
>perfect interpretation of God's word - for one thing, the
>only version I can read is the English translation, and it's
>inconceivable to me that this version is the exact same in
>meaning and context as the original versions.

Since you havent read the whole book, how are you convincing yourself this is not the only doctrine that you can learn about the Most High? According to the word of God (Bible), you must labor, study to shew thyself approved unto God. It's a life long process once you start reading it and praying for understanding little by little God will grant you wisdom to understand what he is talking about. Dont worry about the translation, trust me once you start reading it you will catch on and God will direct your path.

>I'm willing to go thru what
>>you call contradiction and the things that dont make sense.
>>There is nothing contradicting about the book, it's like you
>>said, " things dont make sense". They will once you get an
>>understanding.
>
>I have a book that details all the contradictions, and gives
>citations (and I've checked some of them). There's a lot of
>them. I'll pull out some of the more obvious ones when I get
>time.

Please do because most of what people believe to be contraditions are not, you just have to put things together like a puzzle. Here a little there a little.


>But He created everything, so He set these situations up,
>and allows them to happen. And a good, pious Christian woman
>who is attacked in the parking lot of the grocery store did
>not "put herself in any situation" that justified what
>happened. Living a pious Christian life doesn't protect you
>from being robbed/raped/maimed/murdered/etc.
>
>God's way of life dont create these kinds of
>>people.
>>>Quick question for you: If someone you "loved" ( in a true
>>sense) repeatedly disobeyed you, what would you do?
>
>Hard to say. I definitely wouldn't hurt them for disobeying
>me. I don't expect people I love to obey me (unless it's a
>child, which is a totally separate subject). For example, if
>I told my wife we don't need a new car and she goes out and
>buys one anyway, I'd be pretty angry and frustrated, but I
>wouldn't want to hurt her or cause her pain... Give me a
>better example, because I can't really figure out what
>you're getting at here...

What first needs to be understood, is that God did not create evil, we created evil. God gave us law and the consequences for breaking those laws. Also going back to the beginining, Israel (God's chosen nation was suppose to show the world what is the will of God) entered into a convanent with the Most High, that they would keep his commandments and show the world, they failed they were curse and the rest of the world leaned toward their own understanding because they had no examples. Then God sent his "only begotten". I convanent is a promise, a vow that Israel and God made.

So using your same example:

if you and your wife made a convanent/vow not to buy a car and that if she did buy one, she would be punished and all of her decendent would be also. she still went out and brought that car anyway. According to the word, you "must" live up to your vow. This is how seriously God takes vows, this is why he said, dont make them if you cant keep them. So she's punished. God does not choose to punish us he is just keeping his word.

God's way of life is not evil nor does it create evil people. Read the book for yourself and see how his followers are really suppose to conduct themselves.

  

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nattyindigo
Member since Aug 16th 2002
79 posts
Sun May-25-03 10:34 AM

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33. "RE: look forward to hearing from you"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

greetings,

i have to admit that i have not made my way through the whole thread, however, i feel compelled to reply to some of what has been said from my own personal understanding and relationship with "god".

first, i often find these conversations to be extremely frustrating, if for no other reason most ppl who sit around and talk about religion are trying to not connect with another person through their ideas, worldview, intepretation of their world (god) but instead say "look there is only way to do this thing, and i go it." whats even more frustrating is that it is often these ppl who are the most joyless, live the most unfullfilling, blind, and one dimensional existences.

second, the funny thing i realized after being raised a christian my whole life (if i missed weekly service more then 2 times before 16 i swear i can't remember it) and then being exposed to a world full of poetry, music, biology, chemistry, pysics, islam, hindu, whatever rocks ur world, is that is all related. . .that each of these pursuits offer the person who is using it an chance to look at their world and try to give it meaning, substance, something they can put their hands one. . .make their own. so for me this only makes me more frustrated when anyone (and i'm' not wholly innocent of this) tries to say look this is the only way.

that's all to say is this. . .my understanding of god and his faliable/infaliable nature is this:

>>I'm willing to go thru what
>>>you call contradiction and the things that dont make sense.
>>>There is nothing contradicting about the book, it's like you
>>>said, " things dont make sense". They will once you get an
>>>understanding.

my father and i go back and forth about this all the time, he firmly beleives that colleged screwed me royally. its never made any sense to me that god, infaliable as we like to make him out to be, as perfect and static as we make him out to be. . .would see fit to speak to everyone in english. so if i'm born in savannah, georgia, or kingston jamaica, or cape town, south africa, or jikarta, malaysia, or calcutta, india, or dublin, ireland. . .or. . .any of these places with their unique cultural history and present circustance, unique languages, and then lets not even start talking about how people are different from culture to culture. . .it just makes no sense to me that god is going to talk to me the same way that he'd hit mr. tanaka off in tokyo. my point is this: for me god is a connection between all things i come in contact with, a way to honor my life, and ur life, and the life of anyone, anything i come across. . .nothing has to "make sense" cause they just are. . .cause honestly (and please please don't take this as a personal attack) if i were to try and "make sense" of you through the post that you have put up. . .i'd be lost, have no clue, cause your way of living makes no sense to me. . .at different points in my life i've found it painful, repressive, very biggoted and felt as though it excluded me (hmmm so you see how thanksgiving dinner at my fam's house went down't dont u).


>Please do because most of what people believe to be
>contraditions are not, you just have to put things together
>like a puzzle. Here a little there a little.

but what amazes me is that often when i encounter people who won't look at the contridictions i often wonder how they truly can believe that they are capable of seeing the whole puzzle, cause they only playing wit some of the pieces. i actually agree with you, the bible when taken as a whole, when you see what sort of "energy" (end product) it creates, understand its purpose, has no contridictions. but you have to admit that from page to page, you really ain't sure what u gonna get. . .cause it is very situational changing with time, and space, and actors. . .like well. . .real life. . .

>>from being robbed/raped/maimed/murdered/etc.
>>
>>God's way of life dont create these kinds of
>>>people.

you can't have it both ways. . .either god created the universe, the actors and the props or he didn't.

>What first needs to be understood, is that God did not
>create evil, we created evil.

back to my above point: you can't have it both ways. . .i'm not sure how the avg christian got appointed god's council and where their got their charge to defend him so with such blind zeal (ok i admit thats prob a bit patronizing. . .i'm getting increasingly more frustrated). man, was created in god's image and i believe quite strongly we were created with all of the struggles that god goes through, the struggle with ego, the need to be powerful, the desire of flesh, the desire of . . .so in a world where we are so afraid to deal with ourselves (mini gods. . .remember made in his image) it makes sense that we would split god in half good (jesus/christ/whomever) and evil (poor ole satan) and BOOM go off and live our lives in similiar sketzophrenic ways.

God gave us law and the
>consequences for breaking those laws.

agreed. . .we must take responsibility for our actions. . .and i personally believe that we are here to do exactly that. . .its a process one that will continue long after this conversation, throughout time. god hasn't abandonded us, hasn't turned a blind eye to us, is here when we want "them" we just need to stop being theological, philosophical, cultureal bigots and get on wit it. damn!

leon

ps sorry if some of this wasn't all that inteligent. . .but u know religion. . .gotta love it. . .


courage is a curious, a many sided force, and real courage is always allied with the unshakable faith which forces one to go beyond the appearance of things. . .

james baldwin, "just above my head"

courage is a curious, a many sided force, and real courage is always allied with the unshakable faith which forces one to go beyond the appearance of things. . .

james baldwin, "just above my head"

  

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nonaime
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34. "It's not about having it both ways"
In response to Reply # 33


          

>you can't have it both ways. . .either god created the
>universe, the actors and the props or he didn't.

God created silicon and aluminum, but we are the ones who use those materials to make computer chips. God created metal, but we're the ones who use it to make the guns. God gave us free will, but it is we who use our free will to harm other people/our environment (evil). Those three things were brought to existance by us.

~~~~~~~~
A bad Samaritan averaging above average men (c) DOOM

  

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nattyindigo
Member since Aug 16th 2002
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Sun May-25-03 01:09 PM

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35. "RE: It's not about having it both ways"
In response to Reply # 34


  

          


i won't dispute the that we as free thinking beign we can do whatever we want to do. . .what i'm saying is this. . .i can only work with my raw materials (this doesn't only apply to the material plan. . .this goes for spiritually as well). . .whatever i choose to do wit them is up to me. . .if god gave me the raw materials (and remember i am made in his image), and he is all seeing all knowing then he implicitly cosigned what is going down right now. . .


courage is a curious, a many sided force, and real courage is always allied with the unshakable faith which forces one to go beyond the appearance of things. . .

james baldwin, "just above my head"

courage is a curious, a many sided force, and real courage is always allied with the unshakable faith which forces one to go beyond the appearance of things. . .

james baldwin, "just above my head"

  

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Trinity444
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40. "RE: look forward to hearing from you"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

>greetings,
>
>i have to admit that i have not made my way through the
>whole thread, however, i feel compelled to reply to some of
>what has been said from my own personal understanding and
>relationship with "god".

from your personal understanding and relationship with God how is your faith established? Im no saint and I pray God has mercy on me but I read the bible and except it as being the truth, the "word of God". This is my personal understanding and in order to keep my relationship with the Him, I study his word. All of this is my faith!


>first, i often find these conversations to be extremely
>frustrating, if for no other reason most ppl who sit around
>and talk about religion are trying to not connect with
>another person through their ideas, worldview, intepretation
>of their world (god) but instead say "look there is only way
>to do this thing, and i go it." whats even more
>frustrating is that it is often these ppl who are the most
>joyless, live the most unfullfilling, blind, and one
>dimensional existences.

Would it really be "frustrating" if you humbled yourself and listened? maybe pick up the book and read it.(smile) According to the word, there is only one God and one way to serve him. There is no in between, you either believe or you dont. "I got it" well yes, some of us become proud when we have knowledge of the word and it's not Christ-like but the scriptures are given for reproof. I kinda understand your "frustration", but mines is 10 times greater when people speak blasphemy. If you havent read the book then how can you become frustrated by what you know so little of? you have to get some understanding first before you can even think of combatting Christians. It ainet that I got it and Im neither joyless, blind or one dimentional, just a zeal for God!


>second, the funny thing i realized after being raised a
>christian my whole life (if i missed weekly service more
>then 2 times before 16 i swear i can't remember it) and then
>being exposed to a world full of poetry, music, biology,
>chemistry, pysics, islam, hindu, whatever rocks ur world, is
>that is all related. . .that each of these pursuits offer
>the person who is using it an chance to look at their world
>and try to give it meaning, substance, something they can
>put their hands one. . .make their own. so for me this only
>makes me more frustrated when anyone (and i'm' not wholly
>innocent of this) tries to say look this is the only way.

Being raised a Christian was it not understood that you give God the glory and he will direct your path?

>that's all to say is this. . .my understanding of god and
>his faliable/infaliable nature is this:
>
>>>I'm willing to go thru what
>>>>you call contradiction and the things that dont make sense.
>>>>There is nothing contradicting about the book, it's like you
>>>>said, " things dont make sense". They will once you get an
>>>>understanding.
>
>my father and i go back and forth about this all the time,
>he firmly beleives that colleged screwed me royally. its
>never made any sense to me that god, infaliable as we like
>to make him out to be, as perfect and static as we make him
>out to be. . .would see fit to speak to everyone in english.
> so if i'm born in savannah, georgia, or kingston jamaica,
>or cape town, south africa, or jikarta, malaysia, or
>calcutta, india, or dublin, ireland. . .or. . .any of these
>places with their unique cultural history and present
>circustance, unique languages, and then lets not even start
>talking about how people are different from culture to
>culture. . .it just makes no sense to me that god is going
>to talk to me the same way that he'd hit mr. tanaka off in
>tokyo. my point is this: for me god is a connection
>between all things i come in contact with, a way to honor my
>life, and ur life, and the life of anyone, anything i come
>across. . .nothing has to "make sense" cause they just are.
>. .cause honestly (and please please don't take this as a
>personal attack) if i were to try and "make sense" of you
>through the post that you have put up. . .i'd be lost, have
>no clue, cause your way of living makes no sense to me. .
>.at different points in my life i've found it painful,
>repressive, very biggoted and felt as though it excluded me
>(hmmm so you see how thanksgiving dinner at my fam's house
>went down't dont u).

being raised a Christian are your familiar with Matt.13, when the people asked Christ why he spoke in parables? if you can read the whole chapter it may give you some idea. Version/translation we can discuss another time, we need to get and understanding first.

>
>>Please do because most of what people believe to be
>>contraditions are not, you just have to put things together
>>like a puzzle. Here a little there a little.
>
>but what amazes me is that often when i encounter people who
>won't look at the contridictions i often wonder how they
>truly can believe that they are capable of seeing the whole
>puzzle, cause they only playing wit some of the pieces. i
>actually agree with you, the bible when taken as a whole,
>when you see what sort of "energy" (end product) it creates,
>understand its purpose, has no contridictions. but you have
>to admit that from page to page, you really ain't sure what
>u gonna get. . .cause it is very situational changing with
>time, and space, and actors. . .like well. . .real life. . .

you really need knowledge, wisdom and understanding to follow the bible. read it like stories, then from page to page you'll know what your reading then get some understanding of what your reading then comes the wisdom. It's in steps!

>>>from being robbed/raped/maimed/murdered/etc.
>>>
>>>God's way of life dont create these kinds of
>>>>people.
>
>you can't have it both ways. . .either god created the
>universe, the actors and the props or he didn't.
>
>>What first needs to be understood, is that God did not
>>create evil, we created evil.
>
>back to my above point: you can't have it both ways. . .i'm
>not sure how the avg christian got appointed god's council
>and where their got their charge to defend him so with such
>blind zeal (ok i admit thats prob a bit patronizing. . .i'm
>getting increasingly more frustrated). man, was created in
>god's image and i believe quite strongly we were created
>with all of the struggles that god goes through, the
>struggle with ego, the need to be powerful, the desire of
>flesh, the desire of . . .so in a world where we are so
>afraid to deal with ourselves (mini gods. . .remember made
>in his image) it makes sense that we would split god in half
>good (jesus/christ/whomever) and evil (poor ole satan) and
>BOOM go off and live our lives in similiar sketzophrenic
>ways.

God dont go thru struggles, people do! Christ is the perfect example of God, who was subjected to the same "struggles with ego, the need to be powerful and so on", and he was sinless! Our minds cant grasp who God is or his position/role.

> God gave us law and the
>>consequences for breaking those laws.
>
>agreed. . .we must take responsibility for our actions. .
>.and i personally believe that we are here to do exactly
>that. . .its a process one that will continue long after
>this conversation, throughout time. god hasn't abandonded
>us, hasn't turned a blind eye to us, is here when we want
>"them" we just need to stop being theological,
>philosophical, cultureal bigots and get on wit it. damn!
>
>leon

only way to get on wit it, is to follow after God rightousness and not our own. What is wrong with easy? Doesnt his way of life create peace?


>ps sorry if some of this wasn't all that inteligent. . .but
>u know religion. . .gotta love it. . .

it's all good!

  

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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
5663 posts
Thu May-29-03 03:30 AM

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41. "okay..."
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

>Since you havent read the whole book, how are you convincing
>yourself this is not the only doctrine that you can learn
>about the Most High?

Because I'm just keeping my mind open. I think it's closed-minded to assume that the Bible is the only source of truth. Have you read the Quran? Studied Hinduism or Buddhism? How do you know that Islam or Buddhism wouldn't make even more sense to you than the Bible if you've never opened your mind to other religions and possibilities?

According to the word of God (Bible),
>you must labor, study to shew thyself approved unto God.
>It's a life long process once you start reading it and
>praying for understanding little by little God will grant
>you wisdom to understand what he is talking about.

That sounds somewhat sketchy. The only way to understand GOd is to spend your whole life studying Him. Well by then, you've invested a lifetime into it - what if you still aren't convinced? Or maybe the reason people become convinced is because they've put too much time and effort into it for them to accept that it could be wrong, so they fool themselves into believing... I don't mean to sound demeaning or doubt the truth of anyone's devotion - but it seems like a religion that requires a lifetime of study just to understand it is kind of a trap... I can't put my faith and belief in something I don't understand and just blindly hope that it eventually make sense someday... (Though like I said, I am a Christian, just not one who is closed minded about such things - I believe it's possible to live a good life and get into "heaven" even if you're not a Christian...

Dont
>worry about the translation, trust me once you start reading
>it you will catch on and God will direct your path.

My problem is that the English version of the Bible and the Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic versions are ALL slightly different in meaning and especially connotation. How can every different translation be the flawless and perfect word of God?

For example (and this one is huge!):

the Greek translation for Isaiah's Hebrew "young woman" was a word that can also mean either "virgin" or "young woman." In other words, Isaiah never prophesied a virgin birth, and he wasn't even talking about the Messiah when he prophesied tthe birth of a child to King Ahaz of Judah. But to fulfill the mistranslated prophesy, the author believed Jesus must be born of a virgin. Since neither John, Mark, or Paul in his writings discuss the Virgin Birth, some theologians have suggested that this aspect of Jesus' birth was a later invention, as with the relocation of the birth to Bethlehem, to fit the Nativity events in a prophetic scheme. Once again, the entire episode of Jesus' birth reminds readers that the Bible is a work of faith, not history or biology. {quote taken from Don't Know Much About the Bible, by Kenneth C. Davis}

And this one's not a mistranslation, but while I've got this book out, I want to share this:
You may know that December 25th is not really Jesus' birthday, but here's why it was chosen:
December 25th corresponds with Winter Solstice, a holiday for pagan sun worshippers celebrating the sun god. The week preceding the solstice was called the Saturnalia, an orgiastic festival that concluded with gift-giving and candle-lighting... Hmm, sounds very familiar. Early Roman Christians appropriated the date and some of the traditions to win converts from paganism, who weren't entirely willing to give the holiday and its traditions up. {paraphrased from Davis' Don't Know Much About the Bible}

>>I'm willing to go thru what
>>>you call contradiction and the things that dont make sense.
>>>There is nothing contradicting about the book, it's like you
>>>said, " things dont make sense". They will once you get an
>>>understanding.
>>
>>I have a book that details all the contradictions, and gives
>>citations (and I've checked some of them). There's a lot of
>>them. I'll pull out some of the more obvious ones when I get
>>time.
>
>Please do because most of what people believe to be
>contraditions are not, you just have to put things together
>like a puzzle. Here a little there a little.

I'm not even going to go into the contradictions pointed out in Davis' book - they are too numerous. Instead, let me pull out another great book - The Heretic's Handbook of Quotations, edited by Charles Bufe. Here we go:

I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. -Genesis 32:30 (Jacob speaking)
No man hath seen God at any time. -John 1:18
And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts; but my face shall not be seen. -Exodus 33:23 (God speaking)

...thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. -Exodus 21:23-25
... resist not evil; but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. -Matthew 5:39 (this is the classic contradiction between new and old testament)

God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth He any man. -James 1:13
And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham. -Genesis 22:1

...for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger forever. -Jeremiah 3:12
Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever. -Jeremiah 17:4

Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that giveth understanding. -Proverbs 3:13
For in much wisdom is much grief; and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18

Think not that I am come to send peace on Earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. -Matthew 10:28
...all they that take up the sword shall perish with the sword. -Matthew 26:52

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. -John 3:13
...and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. -2 Kings 2:11

If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. -John 5:31 (Jesus speaking)
I am one who bears witness of myself... -John 8:18 (Jesus speaking)

A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children... -Proverbs 13:22
Sell all that ye have and give alms... -Luke 12:33

...the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and come forth... -John 5:28-29
As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more. -Job

There are more, but that's more than enough for now...
>
>
>>But He created everything, so He set these situations up,
>>and allows them to happen. And a good, pious Christian woman
>>who is attacked in the parking lot of the grocery store did
>>not "put herself in any situation" that justified what
>>happened. Living a pious Christian life doesn't protect you
>>from being robbed/raped/maimed/murdered/etc.
>>
>>God's way of life dont create these kinds of
>>>people.
>>>>Quick question for you: If someone you "loved" ( in a true
>>>sense) repeatedly disobeyed you, what would you do?
>>
>>Hard to say. I definitely wouldn't hurt them for disobeying
>>me. I don't expect people I love to obey me (unless it's a
>>child, which is a totally separate subject). For example, if
>>I told my wife we don't need a new car and she goes out and
>>buys one anyway, I'd be pretty angry and frustrated, but I
>>wouldn't want to hurt her or cause her pain... Give me a
>>better example, because I can't really figure out what
>>you're getting at here...
>
>What first needs to be understood, is that God did not
>create evil, we created evil.

I thought God created everything...
Even so, by giving us free will, he indirectly created evil...

God gave us law and the
>consequences for breaking those laws. Also going back to the
>beginining, Israel (God's chosen nation was suppose to show
>the world what is the will of God) entered into a convanent
>with the Most High, that they would keep his commandments
>and show the world, they failed they were curse and the rest
>of the world leaned toward their own understanding because
>they had no examples. Then God sent his "only begotten". I
>convanent is a promise, a vow that Israel and God made.
>
>So using your same example:
>
>if you and your wife made a convanent/vow not to buy a car
>and that if she did buy one, she would be punished and all
>of her decendent would be also. she still went out and
>brought that car anyway. According to the word, you "must"
>live up to your vow. This is how seriously God takes vows,
>this is why he said, dont make them if you cant keep them.
>So she's punished. God does not choose to punish us he is
>just keeping his word.

That's crazy though. If we made a convenant not to buy a car, I still wouldn't punish her. And punishing her(our) descendants? That's seriously wrong, because they had nothing to do with it. You can't punish someone for what their parents did! Sorry son, your dad killed someone, so you're both going to jail for 20 years... It sounds like God is real fair, kind-hearted and merciful, just the kind I want to worship...

>God's way of life is not evil nor does it create evil
>people.

Ideally this is true, but in the real world, Christians are responsible for plenty of evil. And they do a lot of evil shit in God's name. Even priests, who are supposed to be holy, molest children, commit adultery, become alcoholics, and have any number of other problems.

Read the book for yourself and see how his
>followers are really suppose to conduct themselves.

I know basically how followers are supposed to act. Most of the Christians I know are constantly doing things they shouldn't and making mistakes though. That's human nature, which God created...

  

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Trinity444
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Thu May-29-03 07:17 AM

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43. "do you believe Christ to be the Son of God.."
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

>>Since you havent read the whole book, how are you convincing
>>yourself this is not the only doctrine that you can learn
>>about the Most High?
>
>Because I'm just keeping my mind open. I think it's
>closed-minded to assume that the Bible is the only source of
>truth. Have you read the Quran? Studied Hinduism or
>Buddhism? How do you know that Islam or Buddhism wouldn't
>make even more sense to you than the Bible if you've never
>opened your mind to other religions and possibilities?

I do believe Christ to be the "Son of God" and because I believe that I believe what the bible says, 2 Cor.11: 3-4,13-15

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtily, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, who we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirt, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

For such are false apostles, deceiftul workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

And no marvel; for Satan himselfis transformed into an angel of light.

Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of rightousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

This is why I dont deal with other doctrines or faith. If you think about, what doctrine has laws, statues and commandments more righteous then the ones in the Bible. No other doctrine deals with a Sabbath day. Im not closed minded just strong in my conviction. This is what I beleive to be truth! no other doctrine can dispute with what God has to say.

>According to the word of God (Bible),
>>you must labor, study to shew thyself approved unto God.
>>It's a life long process once you start reading it and
>>praying for understanding little by little God will grant
>>you wisdom to understand what he is talking about.
>
>That sounds somewhat sketchy. The only way to understand GOd
>is to spend your whole life studying Him. Well by then,
>you've invested a lifetime into it - what if you still
>aren't convinced? Or maybe the reason people become
>convinced is because they've put too much time and effort
>into it for them to accept that it could be wrong, so they
>fool themselves into believing... I don't mean to sound
>demeaning or doubt the truth of anyone's devotion - but it
>seems like a religion that requires a lifetime of study just
>to understand it is kind of a trap... I can't put my faith
>and belief in something I don't understand and just blindly
>hope that it eventually make sense someday... (Though like I
>said, I am a Christian, just not one who is closed minded
>about such things - I believe it's possible to live a good
>life and get into "heaven" even if you're not a Christian...

you need to understand people who are about Christ business, are not down about "living their life according to God's standard". It is a life long process, you cant just say for the next 3 months Im going to serve God. You may not be able to put your faith and belief in something you dont understand, (how can you call yourself a Christian?)but once you have an understanding like Christ said, you can move mountians, you dont second guess what you believe, you believe it! peep the subject line again,this is what you must believe in order to call yourself a Christian, and once you do, then you walk in his ways.


>Dont
>>worry about the translation, trust me once you start reading
>>it you will catch on and God will direct your path.
>
>My problem is that the English version of the Bible and the
>Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic versions are ALL slightly different in
>meaning and especially connotation. How can every different
>translation be the flawless and perfect word of God?

get a concordance and find a good teacher! Hungry and thirst after rightousness, and wisdom will feed you!


>For example (and this one is huge!):
>
>the Greek translation for Isaiah's Hebrew "young woman" was
>a word that can also mean either "virgin" or "young woman."
>In other words, Isaiah never prophesied a virgin birth, and
>he wasn't even talking about the Messiah when he prophesied
>tthe birth of a child to King Ahaz of Judah. But to fulfill
>the mistranslated prophesy, the author believed Jesus must
>be born of a virgin. Since neither John, Mark, or Paul in
>his writings discuss the Virgin Birth, some theologians have
>suggested that this aspect of Jesus' birth was a later
>invention, as with the relocation of the birth to Bethlehem,
>to fit the Nativity events in a prophetic scheme. Once
>again, the entire episode of Jesus' birth reminds readers
>that the Bible is a work of faith, not history or biology.
>{quote taken from Don't Know Much About the Bible, by
>Kenneth C. Davis}

this is what theologians beleive! I will deal with what the bible says. What scripture are you referring to? Isaish prophesy of the Messiah is Chap.53.

>And this one's not a mistranslation, but while I've got this
>book out, I want to share this:
>You may know that December 25th is not really Jesus'
>birthday, but here's why it was chosen:
>December 25th corresponds with Winter Solstice, a holiday
>for pagan sun worshippers celebrating the sun god. The week
>preceding the solstice was called the Saturnalia, an
>orgiastic festival that concluded with gift-giving and
>candle-lighting... Hmm, sounds very familiar. Early Roman
>Christians appropriated the date and some of the traditions
>to win converts from paganism, who weren't entirely willing
>to give the holiday and its traditions up. {paraphrased from
>Davis' Don't Know Much About the Bible}

I know all of this I dont keep any of the man made traditions, just the feast of the bible. Why, because none of them are in the bible! Christmas, Easter, birthdays and so on.

>>>I'm willing to go thru what
>>>>you call contradiction and the things that dont make sense.
>>>>There is nothing contradicting about the book, it's like you
>>>>said, " things dont make sense". They will once you get an
>>>>understanding.
>>>
>>>I have a book that details all the contradictions, and gives
>>>citations (and I've checked some of them). There's a lot of
>>>them. I'll pull out some of the more obvious ones when I get
>>>time.
>>
>>Please do because most of what people believe to be
>>contraditions are not, you just have to put things together
>>like a puzzle. Here a little there a little.
>
>I'm not even going to go into the contradictions pointed out
>in Davis' book - they are too numerous. Instead, let me pull
>out another great book - The Heretic's Handbook of
>Quotations, edited by Charles Bufe. Here we go:
>
>I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
>-Genesis 32:30 (Jacob speaking)
>No man hath seen God at any time. -John 1:18
>And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my
>back parts; but my face shall not be seen. -Exodus 33:23
>(God speaking)

the only person anyone saw is Jesus including what Jacob is talking about. We can deal with this more if you would like. I have a lesson on it! this is where you must search the scriptures to put everything in the proper context.


>...thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for
>tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning,
>wound for wound, stripe for stripe. -Exodus 21:23-25
>... resist not evil; but whosoever shall smite thee on thy
>right cheek, turn to him the other also. -Matthew 5:39
>(this is the classic contradiction between new and old
>testament)

again, not put in the proper context! dont take it literal!

>God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth He any
>man. -James 1:13
>And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt
>Abraham. -Genesis 22:1
>
>...for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep
>anger forever. -Jeremiah 3:12
>Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn
>forever. -Jeremiah 17:4
>
>Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that
>giveth understanding. -Proverbs 3:13
>For in much wisdom is much grief; and he that increaseth
>knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
>
>Think not that I am come to send peace on Earth: I came not
>to send peace, but a sword. -Matthew 10:28
>...all they that take up the sword shall perish with the
>sword. -Matthew 26:52
>
>And no man hath ascended up to heaven, even the Son of man
>which is in heaven. -John 3:13
>...and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. -2 Kings
>2:11
>
>If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. -John
>5:31 (Jesus speaking)
>I am one who bears witness of myself... -John 8:18 (Jesus
>speaking)
>
>A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's
>children... -Proverbs 13:22
>Sell all that ye have and give alms... -Luke 12:33
>
>...the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves
>shall hear his voice, and come forth... -John 5:28-29
>As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that
>goeth down to the grave shall come up no more. -Job
>
>There are more, but that's more than enough for now...

these are not contradications, you just have to put everything in it's proper context. I understand why you think they are. How about we go thru each one on a individual bases I would like to show you thru the scriptures how they are not. Can I inbox you?

>>>But He created everything, so He set these situations up,
>>>and allows them to happen. And a good, pious Christian woman
>>>who is attacked in the parking lot of the grocery store did
>>>not "put herself in any situation" that justified what
>>>happened. Living a pious Christian life doesn't protect you
>>>from being robbed/raped/maimed/murdered/etc.
>>>
>>>God's way of life dont create these kinds of
>>>>people.
>>>>>Quick question for you: If someone you "loved" ( in a true
>>>>sense) repeatedly disobeyed you, what would you do?
>>>
>>>Hard to say. I definitely wouldn't hurt them for disobeying
>>>me. I don't expect people I love to obey me (unless it's a
>>>child, which is a totally separate subject). For example, if
>>>I told my wife we don't need a new car and she goes out and
>>>buys one anyway, I'd be pretty angry and frustrated, but I
>>>wouldn't want to hurt her or cause her pain... Give me a
>>>better example, because I can't really figure out what
>>>you're getting at here...
>>
>>What first needs to be understood, is that God did not
>>create evil, we created evil.
>
>I thought God created everything...
>Even so, by giving us free will, he indirectly created
>evil...
>
>God gave us law and the
>>consequences for breaking those laws. Also going back to the
>>beginining, Israel (God's chosen nation was suppose to show
>>the world what is the will of God) entered into a convanent
>>with the Most High, that they would keep his commandments
>>and show the world, they failed they were curse and the rest
>>of the world leaned toward their own understanding because
>>they had no examples. Then God sent his "only begotten". I
>>convanent is a promise, a vow that Israel and God made.
>>
>>So using your same example:
>>
>>if you and your wife made a convanent/vow not to buy a car
>>and that if she did buy one, she would be punished and all
>>of her decendent would be also. she still went out and
>>brought that car anyway. According to the word, you "must"
>>live up to your vow. This is how seriously God takes vows,
>>this is why he said, dont make them if you cant keep them.
>>So she's punished. God does not choose to punish us he is
>>just keeping his word.
>
>That's crazy though. If we made a convenant not to buy a
>car, I still wouldn't punish her. And punishing her(our)
>descendants? That's seriously wrong, because they had
>nothing to do with it. You can't punish someone for what
>their parents did! Sorry son, your dad killed someone, so
>you're both going to jail for 20 years... It sounds like God
>is real fair, kind-hearted and merciful, just the kind I
>want to worship...

when you made your convanent you had conditions, you may not want to punish your wife and it is not the Lord's will to want to punish us. But he set forth conditions (Deut. 28), if you do this then this will happen, if you dont do this , then this will happen! it's a vow. Now the Lord's convanet with Isreal was deeper then what most people think. You may not think it is fair to punish decendents but understand the vow made by Israel, they promise they would be obeident and knew what would happen to them and their decendents if they broke that vow. They agreed to it. It's just like now, if we as parents are not good examples for our childern, if we are not teaching them what is right and what is wrong then how can you be upset when they dont do well. The Lord chose Israel. It's not as cut and dry as you may think. But the more we communicate the more you will understand what I am talking about. God is good his way of life is good. people keep forgetting that becasue they lean toward their own understanding and not reading, "thus saidth the Lord".


>>God's way of life is not evil nor does it create evil
>>people.
>
>Ideally this is true, but in the real world, Christians are
>responsible for plenty of evil. And they do a lot of evil
>shit in God's name. Even priests, who are supposed to be
>holy, molest children, commit adultery, become alcoholics,
>and have any number of other problems.

These people are not Christians! Using you for example (no disrespect) you call yourself a Christians but dont beleive in the Bible or have any understanding of it. The books says, "If you love me keep my commandments" if you love him, you wouldnt be molesting childern, commiting adultery and so forth. Again these are not Christians. This is the most frustrating thing for me you cant serve God and man!

>Read the book for yourself and see how his
>>followers are really suppose to conduct themselves.
>
>I know basically how followers are supposed to act. Most of
>the Christians I know are constantly doing things they
>shouldn't and making mistakes though. That's human nature,
>which God created...

Following after God's righteousness is no easy walk, I will be the first to admit. If you know how they are suppose to act then recognize them for what they are, LIAR'S! you can always knock anyone off with the Bible. Learn the scriptures and reproof them. but if you dont know it or understand it you will never be able to. Study to show thyself approved

  

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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
5663 posts
Fri Jun-13-03 02:58 AM

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54. "on my own terms"
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

>This is why I dont deal with other doctrines or faith. If
>you think about, what doctrine has laws, statues and
>commandments more righteous then the ones in the Bible.

How do you know this if you haven't studied other religions? How can you say Christianity and the Bible are the most righteous without studying the other religions?

>No
>other doctrine deals with a Sabbath day.

I know Judaism does. Not sure about the others.

Im not closed
>minded just strong in my conviction. This is what I beleive
>to be truth! no other doctrine can dispute with what God has
>to say.

I can respect that, certainly. I'm not trying to be disrespectful. But I don't see how you can be so certain that the Bible is the one book that REALLY contains divine truth when you haven't looked into the other holy texts.

>you need to understand people who are about Christ business,
>are not down about "living their life according to God's
>standard". It is a life long process, you cant just say for
>the next 3 months Im going to serve God.

Well, of all the people who claim to be living according to God's standard, and who claim to be Christians, I'd say virtually all of them sin, some in major ways and some in minor ways. I think it's virtually impossible to live without sin.

>You may not be able
>to put your faith and belief in something you dont
>understand, (how can you call yourself a Christian?)

I call myself a Christian on my own terms. That's all that matters to me. I believe in God and Christ, but I am open to the possibility that other religions are also equally valid and acceptable ways to understand and be close to God. I think the most important thing is to live a good, moral life.

but once
>you have an understanding like Christ said, you can move
>mountians, you dont second guess what you believe, you
>believe it! peep the subject line again,this is what you
>must believe in order to call yourself a Christian, and once
>you do, then you walk in his ways.

Like I said before, I call myself a Christian on my own terms. Maybe I am more of a deist with Christian tendencies, I don't know.

>>Dont
>>>worry about the translation, trust me once you start reading
>>>it you will catch on and God will direct your path.
>get a concordance and find a good teacher! Hungry and thirst
>after rightousness, and wisdom will feed you!

That seems overly simplified. My point is, there most definitely are differences in meaning when you read the Bible in English vs. Hebrew vs. Aramaic vs. Greek etc. All translations fail to capture the meaning perfectly. This is well known among linguists, since all languages are inherently different.

>>For example (and this one is huge!):
>>
>>the Greek translation for Isaiah's Hebrew "young woman" was
>>a word that can also mean either "virgin" or "young woman."
>>In other words, Isaiah never prophesied a virgin birth, and
>>he wasn't even talking about the Messiah when he prophesied
>>tthe birth of a child to King Ahaz of Judah. But to fulfill
>>the mistranslated prophesy, the author believed Jesus must
>>be born of a virgin. Since neither John, Mark, or Paul in
>>his writings discuss the Virgin Birth, some theologians have
>>suggested that this aspect of Jesus' birth was a later
>>invention, as with the relocation of the birth to Bethlehem,
>>to fit the Nativity events in a prophetic scheme. Once
>>again, the entire episode of Jesus' birth reminds readers
>>that the Bible is a work of faith, not history or biology.
>>{quote taken from Don't Know Much About the Bible, by
>>Kenneth C. Davis}
>
>this is what theologians beleive! I will deal with what the
>bible says. What scripture are you referring to? Isaish
>prophesy of the Messiah is Chap.53.

My point is that this shows a discrepancy between what most people believe (based on the English translation), and what the original Greek Bible said. Theologians didn't make it up, they just noticed the difference in meaning between the two different languages.

>>I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
>>-Genesis 32:30 (Jacob speaking)
>>No man hath seen God at any time. -John 1:18
>>And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my
>>back parts; but my face shall not be seen. -Exodus 33:23
>>(God speaking)
>
>the only person anyone saw is Jesus including what Jacob is
>talking about. We can deal with this more if you would like.
>I have a lesson on it! this is where you must search the
>scriptures to put everything in the proper context.

How could Jacob be talking about Jesus? That was in the Old Testament. Jacob wrestled and was blessed by God - he definitely saw him face to face. Maybe it was some kind of avatar of God, but saying that it was Jesus is just not supported by the actual text at all. Nothing in that chapter suggests Jesus at all.

>>...thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for
>>tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning,
>>wound for wound, stripe for stripe. -Exodus 21:23-25
>>... resist not evil; but whosoever shall smite thee on thy
>>right cheek, turn to him the other also. -Matthew 5:39
>>(this is the classic contradiction between new and old
>>testament)
>
>again, not put in the proper context! dont take it literal!

It was taken as literal for a long time. Laws were made based on the Old Testament "eye for an eye." The New Testament and Jesus teach to "turn the other cheek" when you are wronged. These seem like complete opposites to me.

>these are not contradications, you just have to put
>everything in it's proper context. I understand why you
>think they are. How about we go thru each one on a
>individual bases I would like to show you thru the
>scriptures how they are not. Can I inbox you?

Sure, you can inbox me if you want. After today, I probably won't be around Okayplayer again until the middle of next week sometime, so if I don't respond, I'm not ignoring you.

>when you made your convanent you had conditions, you may not
>want to punish your wife and it is not the Lord's will to
>want to punish us. But he set forth conditions (Deut. 28),
>if you do this then this will happen, if you dont do this ,
>then this will happen! it's a vow.

I understand this. But it still seems like He is not always a kind, loving merciful God, like He is supposed to be.

Now the Lord's convanet
>with Isreal was deeper then what most people think. You may
>not think it is fair to punish decendents but understand the
>vow made by Israel, they promise they would be obeident and
>knew what would happen to them and their decendents if they
>broke that vow. They agreed to it.

That doesn't make it any less fair. If I make a deal with someone, and I agree that if I don't fulfill my part of the deal, the other person can hurt my kids, that is still horribly unfair to my kids, isn't it?

It's just like now, if
>we as parents are not good examples for our childern, if we
>are not teaching them what is right and what is wrong then
>how can you be upset when they dont do well.

You can still be upset, you just have to accept some of the blame. Some kids find the right path and make the right choices even without guidance, but it is rare.

The Lord chose
>Israel. It's not as cut and dry as you may think. But the
>more we communicate the more you will understand what I am
>talking about. God is good his way of life is good. people
>keep forgetting that becasue they lean toward their own
>understanding and not reading, "thus saidth the Lord".

This makes sense, but it seems like most people who try to live God's way of life end up stumbling along the way, some worse than others. We're all subject to temptation, and sometimes people who believe in God and love God still choose to do evil.

>These people are not Christians!

How can you judge them? They call themselves Christians. Presumably they do TRY to live the right way. They just make mistakes, like we all do. That doesn't make them not Christians. Christians are capable of any evil act that a non-Christian is.

>Using you for example (no
>disrespect) you call yourself a Christians but dont beleive
>in the Bible or have any understanding of it.

I believe in some of the Bible, but I certainly don't think it's flawless. I think it has a lot of good in it, and it is a holy text, but I'm not convinced it's the only source of wisdom and religious truth.

The books
>says, "If you love me keep my commandments" if you love him,
>you wouldnt be molesting childern, commiting adultery and so
>forth. Again these are not Christians.

Plenty of Christians break the Commandments. They are still Christians. You can't just say, well anyone who sins is not a Christian. It would be a pretty small club then.

This is the most
>frustrating thing for me you cant serve God and man!

Everyone who tries to serve God makes errors along the way to make his/her own life better.

>>Read the book for yourself and see how his
>>>followers are really suppose to conduct themselves.

For the most part, I know how God wants us to act. And I probably follow most of God's edicts, without even knowing them all by heart, just because I live a pretty good life. I have strong morals.

>Following after God's righteousness is no easy walk, I will
>be the first to admit. If you know how they are suppose to
>act then recognize them for what they are, LIAR'S!

I don't think this is fair. It's not anyone's place to judge someone else, and judge their "Christianness" for them.

>you can
>always knock anyone off with the Bible.

Why would you want to? That doesn't sound very Christian...

  

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Trinity444
Charter member
41702 posts
Fri Jun-13-03 07:20 AM

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55. "RE: on my own terms"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

>>This is why I dont deal with other doctrines or faith. If
>>you think about, what doctrine has laws, statues and
>>commandments more righteous then the ones in the Bible.
>
>How do you know this if you haven't studied other religions?
>How can you say Christianity and the Bible are the most
>righteous without studying the other religions?

what other doctrine instructs you to love thy neighbor as thyself...
The Lord says I should beware anything/anyone that preaches another doctrine.

>>No
>>other doctrine deals with a Sabbath day.
>
>I know Judaism does. Not sure about the others.

exactly, and I beleive they use just the first five books. and dont beleive in Christ. I wonder why? that's awhole nother subject.

>Im not closed
>>minded just strong in my conviction. This is what I beleive
>>to be truth! no other doctrine can dispute with what God has
>>to say.
>
>I can respect that, certainly. I'm not trying to be
>disrespectful. But I don't see how you can be so certain
>that the Bible is the one book that REALLY contains divine
>truth when you haven't looked into the other holy texts.

like I said before, what doctrine has laws, statutes and commandments more righteous then the Bible. What teaches love?
this is what it is all about!

>>you need to understand people who are about Christ business,
>>are not down about "living their life according to God's
>>standard". It is a life long process, you cant just say for
>>the next 3 months Im going to serve God.
>
>Well, of all the people who claim to be living according to
>God's standard, and who claim to be Christians, I'd say
>virtually all of them sin, some in major ways and some in
>minor ways. I think it's virtually impossible to live
>without sin.

that's why the scriptures says..."dont speak about it be about it" (well it dont actually say that, I put it in laymens terms)
If your about Christ then your walking as he did. Remember when CHrist told the people about the Pharisess (who know the laws very well)he said, do as they command you, but dont do it the way they do. It's not impossible to live without sin, Christ did it and he was man just like you and I. His whole purpose of being sent. To be our example. If your studying the WORD, it becomes apart of you. This is all you know, this is how you live. "it's a way of life, not a religion"...this is how I live.

>>You may not be able
>>to put your faith and belief in something you dont
>>understand, (how can you call yourself a Christian?)
>
>I call myself a Christian on my own terms. That's all that
>matters to me. I believe in God and Christ, but I am open to
>the possibility that other religions are also equally valid
>and acceptable ways to understand and be close to God. I
>think the most important thing is to live a good, moral
>life.

but it dont work like that. It's not about what you wanna do, it's about what God wants for us. If you dont beleive or read the Bible you wont understand this and you will feel this way. what is good? what is moral? see...fa me, it's living according to God's standard. It's so peaceful.

>but once
>>you have an understanding like Christ said, you can move
>>mountians, you dont second guess what you believe, you
>>believe it! peep the subject line again,this is what you
>>must believe in order to call yourself a Christian, and once
>>you do, then you walk in his ways.
>
>Like I said before, I call myself a Christian on my own
>terms. Maybe I am more of a deist with Christian tendencies,
>I don't know.

maybe so, but get to know Him. Things will change. Learn what He wants/expects of us.

>>>Dont
>>>>worry about the translation, trust me once you start reading
>>>>it you will catch on and God will direct your path.
>>get a concordance and find a good teacher! Hungry and thirst
>>after rightousness, and wisdom will feed you!
>
>That seems overly simplified. My point is, there most
>definitely are differences in meaning when you read the
>Bible in English vs. Hebrew vs. Aramaic vs. Greek etc. All
>translations fail to capture the meaning perfectly. This is
>well known among linguists, since all languages are
>inherently different.

look for a teacher if your having trouble and you have to pray for understanding. If you really wanna know then you will search for Him.

>>>For example (and this one is huge!):
>>>
>>>the Greek translation for Isaiah's Hebrew "young woman" was
>>>a word that can also mean either "virgin" or "young woman."
>>>In other words, Isaiah never prophesied a virgin birth, and
>>>he wasn't even talking about the Messiah when he prophesied
>>>tthe birth of a child to King Ahaz of Judah. But to fulfill
>>>the mistranslated prophesy, the author believed Jesus must
>>>be born of a virgin. Since neither John, Mark, or Paul in
>>>his writings discuss the Virgin Birth, some theologians have
>>>suggested that this aspect of Jesus' birth was a later
>>>invention, as with the relocation of the birth to Bethlehem,
>>>to fit the Nativity events in a prophetic scheme. Once
>>>again, the entire episode of Jesus' birth reminds readers
>>>that the Bible is a work of faith, not history or biology.
>>>{quote taken from Don't Know Much About the Bible, by
>>>Kenneth C. Davis}
>>
>>this is what theologians beleive! I will deal with what the
>>bible says. What scripture are you referring to? Isaish
>>prophesy of the Messiah is Chap.53.
>
>My point is that this shows a discrepancy between what most
>people believe (based on the English translation), and what
>the original Greek Bible said. Theologians didn't make it
>up, they just noticed the difference in meaning between the
>two different languages.

I need to look into this.

>>>I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
>>>-Genesis 32:30 (Jacob speaking)
>>>No man hath seen God at any time. -John 1:18
>>>And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my
>>>back parts; but my face shall not be seen. -Exodus 33:23
>>>(God speaking)
>>
>>the only person anyone saw is Jesus including what Jacob is
>>talking about. We can deal with this more if you would like.
>>I have a lesson on it! this is where you must search the
>>scriptures to put everything in the proper context.
>
>How could Jacob be talking about Jesus? That was in the Old
>Testament. Jacob wrestled and was blessed by God - he
>definitely saw him face to face. Maybe it was some kind of
>avatar of God, but saying that it was Jesus is just not
>supported by the actual text at all. Nothing in that chapter
>suggests Jesus at all.

I think I responded to you in the next reply when you talked about the contradiction. but if you want me to break down the GODHEAD for you I will. short summary, Jesus is God, and this is the only person anyone seen. and yes the scriptures supports it

>>>...thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for
>>>tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning,
>>>wound for wound, stripe for stripe. -Exodus 21:23-25
>>>... resist not evil; but whosoever shall smite thee on thy
>>>right cheek, turn to him the other also. -Matthew 5:39
>>>(this is the classic contradiction between new and old
>>>testament)
>>
>>again, not put in the proper context! dont take it literal!
>
>It was taken as literal for a long time. Laws were made
>based on the Old Testament "eye for an eye." The New
>Testament and Jesus teach to "turn the other cheek" when you
>are wronged. These seem like complete opposites to me.

see my reply to this contradictions also.

>
>>these are not contradications, you just have to put
>>everything in it's proper context. I understand why you
>>think they are. How about we go thru each one on a
>>individual bases I would like to show you thru the
>>scriptures how they are not. Can I inbox you?
>
>Sure, you can inbox me if you want. After today, I probably
>won't be around Okayplayer again until the middle of next
>week sometime, so if I don't respond, I'm not ignoring you.
>

I will about the Godhead. THat's cool Im also busy. I have been spending alot of time on OKP good thing Im the boss because I havent gottin any work done.

>>when you made your convanent you had conditions, you may not
>>want to punish your wife and it is not the Lord's will to
>>want to punish us. But he set forth conditions (Deut. 28),
>>if you do this then this will happen, if you dont do this ,
>>then this will happen! it's a vow.
>
>I understand this. But it still seems like He is not always
>a kind, loving merciful God, like He is supposed to be.

basically...he's not when we live against what he commands. Im one of the few that actually fears Him. It's that real for me

>Now the Lord's convanet
>>with Isreal was deeper then what most people think. You may
>>not think it is fair to punish decendents but understand the
>>vow made by Israel, they promise they would be obeident and
>>knew what would happen to them and their decendents if they
>>broke that vow. They agreed to it.
>
>That doesn't make it any less fair. If I make a deal with
>someone, and I agree that if I don't fulfill my part of the
>deal, the other person can hurt my kids, that is still
>horribly unfair to my kids, isn't it?

so, be careful what you vow. That is what the Lord says also. If you cant live up to it, dont say you will. But if you do vow it you must live up to your end of the bargin.

>It's just like now, if
>>we as parents are not good examples for our childern, if we
>>are not teaching them what is right and what is wrong then
>>how can you be upset when they dont do well.
>
>You can still be upset, you just have to accept some of the
>blame. Some kids find the right path and make the right
>choices even without guidance, but it is rare.

That is why we must be good example. I believe the scriptures goes...if you raise the child up well then they wont depart from that way. (something like that) as parents we "must" be a good example for our childern. They are a reflection of us. If they are brought up in good way and only shown good things.. what you think they will know. All they no is to be good. Im trying with my boy now...but I know I must live it before I try to teach it to him.


>The Lord chose
>>Israel. It's not as cut and dry as you may think. But the
>>more we communicate the more you will understand what I am
>>talking about. God is good his way of life is good. people
>>keep forgetting that becasue they lean toward their own
>>understanding and not reading, "thus saidth the Lord".
>
>This makes sense, but it seems like most people who try to
>live God's way of life end up stumbling along the way, some
>worse than others. We're all subject to temptation, and
>sometimes people who believe in God and love God still
>choose to do evil.

true, I beleive the parable Christ talk about this is Mat.13 the parable of the sower. read that chapter and tell me what you think. I wish to be the one that fell on the good ground. But this is granted only to those that fear the Most High.

>>These people are not Christians!
>
>How can you judge them? They call themselves Christians.
>Presumably they do TRY to live the right way. They just make
>mistakes, like we all do. That doesn't make them not
>Christians. Christians are capable of any evil act that a
>non-Christian is.

Im try not to judge, (oh reckon man that I am) what I do is rebuke and I do it according to the scriptures. But if someone says that they are and do contray to what Christ says... he's says they are liars. If they make mistakes, you repent (turn away) and get back to "thus saidth the Lord". A CHtistian is a follower of Christ. and what he say...If you love ,e keep my commandments.

>>Using you for example (no
>>disrespect) you call yourself a Christians but dont beleive
>>in the Bible or have any understanding of it.
>
>I believe in some of the Bible, but I certainly don't think
>it's flawless. I think it has a lot of good in it, and it is
>a holy text, but I'm not convinced it's the only source of
>wisdom and religious truth.

you have to learn to fear God, and you will learn this once you start reading the text and get an understanding.

>The books
>>says, "If you love me keep my commandments" if you love him,
>>you wouldnt be molesting childern, commiting adultery and so
>>forth. Again these are not Christians.
>
>Plenty of Christians break the Commandments. They are still
>Christians. You can't just say, well anyone who sins is not
>a Christian. It would be a pretty small club then.

"the harvest is great but the labourers are few", there are many that say they believe but few willing to walk the walk.


>This is the most
>>frustrating thing for me you cant serve God and man!
>
>Everyone who tries to serve God makes errors along the way
>to make his/her own life better.
>
>>>Read the book for yourself and see how his
>>>>followers are really suppose to conduct themselves.
>
>For the most part, I know how God wants us to act. And I
>probably follow most of God's edicts, without even knowing
>them all by heart, just because I live a pretty good life. I
>have strong morals.


>>Following after God's righteousness is no easy walk, I will
>>be the first to admit. If you know how they are suppose to
>>act then recognize them for what they are, LIAR'S!
>
>I don't think this is fair. It's not anyone's place to judge
>someone else, and judge their "Christianness" for them.

its not fair, but if your profess to be Christ like, then the true believer expect for you to act like it. Just like Christ said to the Pharisees. You have to know what you believe and why you believe it before you start walking around talking about your a Christian. Because as soon as you say this... the light goes on and people are watching you.


>>you can
>>always knock anyone off with the Bible.
>
>Why would you want to? That doesn't sound very Christian...

what I mean, is that if someone professes to be a Christian then they should live their life according to how God set forth. If not then using the scriptures ask them how are they Christian. No one likes to be rebuke but when your wrong you are wrong.

  

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Trinity444
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51. "let's deal with what you think are contradications:"
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

1st one

>I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
>-Genesis 32:30 (Jacob speaking)
>No man hath seen God at any time. -John 1:18
>And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my
>back parts; but my face shall not be seen. -Exodus 33:23
>(God speaking)

Noone has seen God, only the son which is Christ. That includes both in Old and New Testament.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word,(Jesus or spokesmen) and the Word (Jesus) was with God and the Word (Jesus) was God.

The same was the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Col.1:15-17

Who is the image of the invisble God, the firstborn of every creature:

For by him were all things created, that are in the heaven, and that are in the earth, visble and invisble, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalites, or powers: all things were created by him and for him:

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


1 Tim.3:16

And without controversy "GREAT IS THE MYSTERY OF GODLINESS:" God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirt, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

  

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Trinity444
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52. "RE: let's deal with what you think are contradications:"
In response to Reply # 51


  

          

2nd:

thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. -Exodus 21:23-25
... resist not evil; but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. -Matthew 5:39 (this is the classic contradiction between new and old testament)

you say this is a classic one, well let's get an understanding:

Exd. 21, is dealing with Laws to govern the people, given to Moses by God, notice who is given these laws GOD! what Christ is saying in Mat.5:39 is let God excecute the judgement of people who wrong you. If a person has wrong you not necessary turning the other cheek, but get away from that person. It's all about doing just judgement! So in Exd. GOD commanded how Israel should judge the people (the nation of Israel). It wasnt given to justify revenge but as a rule for personal relationships among the people. And all are just laws. Read the chapter again. Christ was just saying, let GOD do the judgement to those that harm you. It was a need to say this because every man had leaned toward what "they" understood about matters and not what God had to say (just like today)

the world laws are taken from the Bible. If you steal, kill you go to jail, if you cheat on your wife/husband there's consequences etc.. no different, Christ again, is saying let GOD judge the individual(s)




  

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Trinity444
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53. "RE: let's deal with what you think are contradications:"
In response to Reply # 51


  

          



what I wanted to say and make sure that it is understood:

is no one has seen GOD, they have only seen Jesus both in Old testament times and New testament times

  

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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
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Thu May-29-03 03:48 AM

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42. "PS"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

Much respect to you and your faith. I didn't mean to come off as insulting or disrespectful. I am struggling to come to an understanding with regard to religion. I do respect you and your beliefs and I am glad we can share our thoughts, ideas, and beliefs.

Oh yeah, one other thing that I struggle with is that the Bible teaches that all non-believers go to Hell. Some of my best friends are Buddhist, and they are more moral, upstanding and altogether "good" people than most Christians I know. I can't believe they will go to Hell and suffer when they die, and it bothers me that a God would be so jealous, and not value the inherent goodness of people...

And what about people who have never even be exposed to Christianity? I also find it somewhat disrespect of someone's culture and religion to try to spread God's word because that implies that their religion/culture is completely wrong...

Like Com says in GOD (just from memory, so no one needs to correct me if this isn't the exact quote), "different branches of belief, all got truth in 'em,got to read them boys").

  

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Trinity444
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44. "Thank you for your time"
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

>Much respect to you and your faith. I didn't mean to come
>off as insulting or disrespectful. I am struggling to come
>to an understanding with regard to religion. I do respect
>you and your beliefs and I am glad we can share our
>thoughts, ideas, and beliefs.

I dont take you as being disrepectful or insulting, I havent met too many humble OKP's. I dont respond to post to be defensive nor are my replies intended to disrepect anyone. Im just standing strong in what I believe. Anytime you wanna talk about my "way of life", (because I dont see it as a religion) feel free to post or inbox me.

>Oh yeah, one other thing that I struggle with is that the
>Bible teaches that all non-believers go to Hell. Some of my
>best friends are Buddhist, and they are more moral,
>upstanding and altogether "good" people than most Christians
>I know. I can't believe they will go to Hell and suffer when
>they die, and it bothers me that a God would be so jealous,
>and not value the inherent goodness of people...

Let's discuss this also on an individual bases. One thing I would liek to say is that, it would be better if we stuck with one issue at a time. there's so much knowledge in the bible and if we jump all over, you will never get it. Little by little is how the knowledge is granted.

>And what about people who have never even be exposed to
>Christianity? I also find it somewhat disrespect of
>someone's culture and religion to try to spread God's word
>because that implies that their religion/culture is
>completely wrong...

There is only one God and one way to serve him.

>Like Com says in GOD (just from memory, so no one needs to
>correct me if this isn't the exact quote), "different
>branches of belief, all got truth in 'em,got to read them
>boys").

But that is not what God requires, Let me quote you the Shema:

Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is ONE Lord:

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all they soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: This is the first commandment.

And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. This is none other commandment greater than these.

peace and blessing okayplayer!

  

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Ras_child
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4. "RE: God, evil, omnipotence"
In response to Reply # 1


          

Trinity, that was a pretty bad rebuttal. Basically, from your argument, God is able but not willing because he is "keeping his word", hence malevolent.

  

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Trinity444
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13. "why is it hard to believe"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

why would God in all his mercy desire to bring pain on people? God has good laws, statues and commandments, not for His benefit but our's. Choose God's way of life and live!

As far as "keeping His word", go back to the beginning and read what happened after the flood and get some understanding of what he told Noah.


  

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keithdawg
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Wed May-21-03 05:23 AM

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15. "After the flood,"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

it logically follows that Noah and his wife went on to have children, who subsequently engaged in a neverending incest party to perpetuate the species ... how sensible!

"If life is prison, then music is the yardtime"--Gift of Gab

"I've been a big genesis fan ... take the lyrics to "Land of Confusion," in which a singer addresses the problem of abusive political authority. This is laid down with a groove funkier and blacker than anything Prince or Michael Jackson-or any other black artist of recent years, for that matter-has come up with ... yet as danceable as the album is, it also has a stripped-down urgency that not even the overrated Bruce Springsteen can equal"--American Psycho

"I'm tryin' to read your poetry but I'm helpless like a rich man's child"--Bob Dylan

"The only thing you owe the past is wasted time"--Beck

Do yourself a favor,
Be your own savior.

Daniel Johnston

  

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Trinity444
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16. "back up a little"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

pick it up at Genesis 9, God's covenant with creation.

  

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Bluebear
Member since Apr 06th 2003
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Fri Jun-20-03 02:24 AM

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60. "if god is perfect"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

and we are created in his image, shouldn't we be perfect and if he designed our faults ( desires etc) and then made commandments against them that just doesn't make any sense.

"You have not converted a man because you have silenced him" -John Viscount Morley


"I'd like to quit thinking of the present, like right now, as some minor, insignificant preamble to somethin' else."

http://www.myspace.com/kofi3

  

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FoundationIV
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3. "He should be showing up any minute now...."
In response to Reply # 0


          


Why don't you ask him when he gets here...






Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood. So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love".

  

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Ras_child
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5. "RE: He should be showing up any minute now...."
In response to Reply # 3


          

Yeah, they've been saying that for about 2,003 years...holla at me when you see him I got some questions. Is he coming via satellite?

Believe what you will, but maintaining blind faith is the only true defense of Christianity. I definitely believe in a higher power, but I don't think he told Bishop Jakes I should give him 10%.

  

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Trinity444
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31. "dont spend your money if it ainet bread"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

I definitely believe in a higher power, but I don't think he told Bishop Jakes I should give him 10%.

it is required that you pay your 10%, if your not getting the correct teaching then take your 10% to a place that is teaching you about the "higher power" Woe unto bishop jakes if he dont do what he is suppose to with the money. But do your part!

  

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Trinity444
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28. "and Lord knows I cant wait"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

>Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I
>have been fully understood. So faith, hope, love abide,
>these three; but the greatest of these is love".

and I have nuthin but LOVE fa ya!

  

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nonaime
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Tue May-20-03 03:05 PM

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8. "SWEET..."
In response to Reply # 0
Tue May-20-03 03:07 PM

          

2 days into my proofs class and I get to use some fundamentals already...you'll have to excuse me if I botch these.

I'll first turn these question into truth statements using these statements:

P:god is willing to prevent evil
Q:god is able to prevent evil
R: god is omnipotent
S: god is malevolent
T: god is worthy to be called God

>Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not
>omnipotent.
if true, this equals: P and ~Q (not Q) implies ~R.

If this statement is true, then the contrapositive is true as well. The contrapositive is, ~P or Q implies R. Since this is true, if god is not willing to stop evil OR if god is able to stop evil then god is omnipotent.

So the contrapostives to Epicurus' questions would be:

Is God not willing to stop evil OR (means only one condition needs to be met) is God able to stop evil? Then God is omnipotent.
Is God willing to stop evil or is God not able to stop evil? Then God is not malevolent.
Is God willing to stop evil or is God able to stop evil? Then God is worthy to be called God.

According to the contrapositives, which have to be true if Epicurus' questions are true, God can be willing to stop evil OR not willing to stop evil, able to stop evil OR not able to stop evil...and still be omnipotent, benevolent, and worthy to be called God.

Epicurus' third question isn't a characterization of God, he's asking if God is willing to stop evil and is able to stop evil...why is there still evil? Maybe God isn't willing to stop evil.

So what is evil? People dying from natural causes? or peopele dying from famines caused by wars/greedy countries that won't share?

I don't think God's job is to save us from ourselves.

~~~~~~~~
A bad Samaritan averaging above average men (c) DOOM

  

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kid
Member since Jul 10th 2002
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Tue May-20-03 03:17 PM

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9. "RE: SWEET..."
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

>I don't think God's job is to save us from ourselves.


This is the only thing, I understood.
Very profound.
Now I'm stuck on "What is Evil?"
Thanx a lot asshole! (lol)

***********************************
StLOKp's�: DawgEatah, Dstl1, hyde, Colonel Sanders, MisterGrump, Afrotec, Instant_Vintage, ThaTruth, Soul1908, SefConscious, Baldheadslik, YngblkprinceMD, 314confidential, rdiggity, Kid

Honorable mention:auragin_boi

  

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Bluebear
Member since Apr 06th 2003
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Fri Jun-20-03 02:28 AM

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61. "I disagree"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

IT is precisley his job, if as they believe he created us then he created our vices. It's like playing cards with a loaded deck then getting mad when people lose. AT most it means he/she is an ass.

"You have not converted a man because you have silenced him" -John Viscount Morley


"I'd like to quit thinking of the present, like right now, as some minor, insignificant preamble to somethin' else."

http://www.myspace.com/kofi3

  

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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
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Wed May-21-03 03:06 AM

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10. "I think you made a few mistakes"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

>
>I'll first turn these question into truth statements using
>these statements:
>
>P:god is willing to prevent evil
>Q:god is able to prevent evil
>R: god is omnipotent
>S: god is malevolent
>T: god is worthy to be called God
>
>>Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not
>>omnipotent.
>if true, this equals: P and ~Q (not Q) implies ~R.
>
>If this statement is true, then the contrapositive is true
>as well. The contrapositive is, ~P or Q implies R. Since
>this is true, if god is not willing to stop evil OR if god
>is able to stop evil then god is omnipotent.

No, actually the contrapositive in this case is:
~R implies ~P or ~Q. This means if God is not omnipotent, then he is either not willing to stop evil or not able to stop evil. This is logically equivalent to the original statement, and if one is true, then both are true.

Remember that for contrapositives, you swap the position of the two sides of the equation and negate both sides.

>So the contrapostives to Epicurus' questions would be:
>
>Is God not willing to stop evil OR (means only one condition
>needs to be met) is God able to stop evil? Then God is
>omnipotent.
>Is God willing to stop evil or is God not able to stop evil?
>Then God is not malevolent.
>Is God willing to stop evil or is God able to stop evil?
>Then God is worthy to be called God.

Again, I think you're mistaken. The contrapositives actually are as follows:
- If God is not omnipotent, then he is either not willing or not able to stop evil.
- If God is not malevolent, then he is either not able to stop evil, or he is willing to stop evil.
- If evil cometh, then God is either not able or not willing to stop evil.
- If God is not worthy of being called God, then he either able or willing to stop evil (and doesn't).


>According to the contrapositives, which have to be true if
>Epicurus' questions are true, God can be willing to stop
>evil OR not willing to stop evil, able to stop evil OR not
>able to stop evil...and still be omnipotent, benevolent, and
>worthy to be called God.

This is wrong because you got the contrapositives wrong...

>Epicurus' third question isn't a characterization of God,
>he's asking if God is willing to stop evil and is able to
>stop evil...why is there still evil? Maybe God isn't
>willing to stop evil.

Not sure what you mean. Are you saying that God is omnipotent and therefore able to stop evil, but doesn't, because he is not willing? Then that would fall in Epicurus's category that God is malevolent.

>So what is evil? People dying from natural causes? or
>peopele dying from famines caused by wars/greedy countries
>that won't share?
>
>I don't think God's job is to save us from ourselves.

This is a good point. But didn't God create evil, since he created everything? If we are evil, it is because God made us that way. Because even if Satan tempted us, God created Satan, so in the end, God is still responsible for evil...

Of course, personally I believe in free will, I think God allows evil to exist so that we have the choice to accept/embrace it or choose to deny it... that's part of his means of testing our moral integrity.

  

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nyc_rootsfan
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12. "RE: I think you made a few mistakes"
In response to Reply # 10


          

there is no evil.

what is evil?



there is an absolute, all things are encompassed in it.



  

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nonaime
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19. "RE: I think you made a few mistakes"
In response to Reply # 10


          

>Remember that for contrapositives, you swap the position of
>the two sides of the equation and negate both sides.

Mayne, I thought I was on a roll. Yes, I see my mistakes.

>>Epicurus' third question isn't a characterization of God,
>>he's asking if God is willing to stop evil and is able to
>>stop evil...why is there still evil? Maybe God isn't
>>willing to stop evil.
>
>Not sure what you mean. Are you saying that God is
>omnipotent and therefore able to stop evil, but doesn't,
>because he is not willing? Then that would fall in
>Epicurus's category that God is malevolent.

God is omnipotent, put God is also a God of order. God gave mankind dominion over the Earth. God's the owner, we're the managers. Mismanagement falls squarely on the shoulders of the manager. The owner can only be blamed if they don't find new managers before the establishment goes to crap...but that day of reckoning is coming.

>This is a good point. But didn't God create evil, since he
>created everything? If we are evil, it is because God made
>us that way. Because even if Satan tempted us, God created
>Satan, so in the end, God is still responsible for evil...

I don't think God created evil directly, it exists only because we allow it to exist (because of our free will). Again, it comes down to our having dominion over the Earth. If we really wanted to get rid of the evils in the world, we could. As far as Satan goes, we have power over him...if we yield to his temptation, that's on us not God.


~~~~~~~~
A bad Samaritan averaging above average men (c) DOOM

  

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watdefok
Member since Jun 27th 2002
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Wed May-21-03 05:22 AM

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14. "RE: God, evil, omnipotence"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Willing and able huh... well i'm sure he would want to, but the question is how. Of course the easy way would be taking away our free will. I guess he could do that. I don't know who or what god is and what he is capable of, but i seriously doubt he would want to take free will away from us, since that is also one of our greatest blessings.

But on a long-term base, he may be working on it already.
Let's assume that he gave messages to prophets for the purpose of trying to teach people that doing evil is wrong. That was the basic idea of religion, at least that's what i believe. But people (collectively), are obviously still not ready to comprehend this message and keep killing eachother over the details of different versions of the same message, thus missing the whole point.
Now it's easy to write this behavior off as "human nature", although that seems to be the case. But i'm convinced that people as a whole are in a perpetual learning process, and that it certainly isn't a lost cause.

  

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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
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Wed May-21-03 08:36 AM

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17. "Good points"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

>Willing and able huh... well i'm sure he would want to, but
>the question is how. Of course the easy way would be taking
>away our free will. I guess he could do that. I don't know
>who or what god is and what he is capable of, but i
>seriously doubt he would want to take free will away from
>us, since that is also one of our greatest blessings.

Very good point. So he allows us to do evil because he wants us to have free will to choose righteousness or wrongness. But why did he make wrongness so appealing to so many people?

>But on a long-term base, he may be working on it already.
>Let's assume that he gave messages to prophets for the
>purpose of trying to teach people that doing evil is wrong.
>That was the basic idea of religion, at least that's what i
>believe.

This makes a lot of sense. God is trying to solve evil through religion, by teaching people to use their free will to resist/deny evil. I like that notion.

But people (collectively), are obviously still not
>ready to comprehend this message and keep killing eachother
>over the details of different versions of the same message,
>thus missing the whole point.

Why did God make it so hard to understand? Even Jesus came down speaking in parables and shit that most people can't understand. If I were really trying to save as many people's souls as I could, I'd try to be a little more accessible.

>Now it's easy to write this behavior off as "human nature",
>although that seems to be the case. But i'm convinced that
>people as a whole are in a perpetual learning process, and
>that it certainly isn't a lost cause.

Another thing to consider is that God could take away our DESIRE but not our free will to do evil. In other words, we still have free will, but evil/Satan doesn't dwell in our hearts and constantly tempt us.

Of course, there could also be other ways to get rid of evil while still allowing free will that we cannot comprehend, but God can.

I don't know, I just think it's interesting & cool to think about why a loving, beneficent God would have created a world like he did, full of evil...

  

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watdefok
Member since Jun 27th 2002
1443 posts
Thu May-22-03 02:01 PM

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26. "RE: Good points"
In response to Reply # 17


          

>Very good point. So he allows us to do evil because he wants
>us to have free will to choose righteousness or wrongness.
>But why did he make wrongness so appealing to so many
>people?
Well, personally i believe in rencarnation and that life on earth is a lesson. Every choice we make teaches us something, and we learn most from our mistakes so doing wrong is an option.
Here's something interesting i heard a wise man say once: "nobody ever does something which is unreasonable according to them".
People do wrong because according to them, it's right.


>Why did God make it so hard to understand? Even Jesus came
>down speaking in parables and shit that most people can't
>understand. If I were really trying to save as many people's
>souls as I could, I'd try to be a little more accessible.
I don't think the basics are that hard to grasp - don't do things to others that you wouldn't like others to do to you, and be nice to eachother. That people have had war after war about different interpretations of the same basic message just proves that not everybody is ready to grasp the importance of the basic message.
We don't have all the answers, because we are in a growing process. We are often refered to as "children of God", and when you look at this from a rencartnation point of view, every life we lead is like a day in the life of a person. Children don't understand a lot of things, but that doesn't mean that they never will. If everything would be easy to understand even for imaature sould, we would be living in a spiritual equivalent of Sesame Street. Do we really want to be counting to three for the rest of our lives, when we can learn complex algebra?


>Another thing to consider is that God could take away our
>DESIRE but not our free will to do evil. In other words, we
>still have free will, but evil/Satan doesn't dwell in our
>hearts and constantly tempt us.
A wise man once said: "good and evil aren't opposites like two halves of a perfect circle. In fact they are very similar because they are boths attempts to find love".
This makes sense to me. Because if a child doesn't get enough love, it will grow up to be a prick and that is a reaction to the absense of love in its life.
So this means that the desire to do evil comes from a desire to be loved.

  

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Delete me
Member since Aug 27th 2002
8611 posts
Wed May-21-03 01:57 PM

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20. "RE: God, evil, omnipotence"
In response to Reply # 0


          

>What do you think of this quote:
>
>Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not
>omnipotent.
>Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
>Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
>Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god?
>- Epicurus, Greek philosopher (342-270 BC)

god's no dictator.

p/s freedom is responsibilty

  

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6_1_flo
Member since Apr 15th 2003
3869 posts
Wed May-21-03 02:22 PM

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21. "RE: God, evil, omnipotence"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I catch myself at times asking "why does evil exist?" But I think about what Yahweh told Job, that Job wasn't there when He created the foundations of the world, so He don't have no right to ask. It's like when I was younger, and I asked my mom how much money she had, and she told me, "Don't worry about it, as long as you have clothes on your back, roof over your head, and food in your mouth, don't worry bout how much money I got". And Yahweh is the same way, saying "What right do you have to question my authority and power, if something's gonna happen, it's gonna happen, just know that I'm your source of strength when evil comes." Yahweh is always trying to pull us in his direction, and many people don't wanna go. There's a spiritual realm and a physical realm

H!L album: Tremors Of A Remix @
http://hil2.bandcamp.com
twitter.com/ihilbot
facebook.com/yahzone
soundlyfemusic@gmail.com

  

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666
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27. "Simple."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

God is the Devil. There is only One (the All) and its beyond Good and Evil.

||| my work here is done |||

  

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CantCBob
Member since Aug 13th 2002
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Sun May-25-03 08:29 AM

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32. "RE: the real question"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

if god truly is all mighty, can he create a rock that is too heavy for even himself to lift? think about that one and let me know if you can hear any trees falling in unpopulated forests


"John Stockton, not just a great player, but one of the greatest stories of western civilization"--Bill Walton

"Every area has their jesus. I am the jesus of okayplayer.com and Benzino is the jesus of hiphop."--The Source--

"and this has shit to do with your confrontational online persona and wack view on indefinite incarceration & lack of empathy." okayplayer rawsouthpaw

"John Stockton, not just a great player, but one of the greatest stories of western civilization"--Bi

  

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666
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36. ""god" is not a person or thing"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

think about that

||| my work here is done |||

  

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urbantea
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37. "RE: the real question"
In response to Reply # 32


          

I didnt' read all the replies here but a good way to discuss "GOD" or spirituality is WITHOUT using the word "GOD>"

WHen you use the word "GOD" you are implying that you read and belivei n the bible, go to church and the whole 9 yards. The Eastern way of talking about spirituality, to me, makes more sense.

When people say things like, "God loves you."

TO me that doesn't mean anything. That just means that I can be a christian becuase the doors are open to me. It also means that I can be a muslim or a taoist becuase their "gods" love me too. A lot of religion is just worded confusingly, and they should explain things that can be more easily read and understood by anyone, religious or not.

People die everydya, terrorism- it's not god doing that and it's not "god" who's not preventing it. Shit happens. If I walk outside and trip on a rock, it was my dumbass tripping. It's not " it was meant to be "kind of bulllshit.

  

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the_tao_of_michael
Member since May 25th 2003
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Sun May-25-03 08:47 PM

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38. "RE: the real question"
In response to Reply # 37


          

first of all, taoists have no god or gods.

secondly, is there such thing as fate? if god knows what is going to happen, where was the chioce made? if the future is already decided and god is all powerfull, where is free will?
another thing to think about is, if you could see your fate, then it would cease to be your fate. you could make different decisions to change the future.

i don't think that an all powerful god and free will can coexist. i believe we do have choices and there is no such thing as fate, but the faith part of my brain is very weak.sorry if this ish is a bit scattered its late.

religion always comes down to blind faith. leave it at that.

live your life to the fullest. peace.

  

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Toothpick
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75. "Taosim"
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

>first of all, taoists have no god or gods.

This is a touchy subject. Many Taoist denominations *do* have several Gods and/or Spirits. This is, however, a deviation from the Tao Te Ching.

HOWEVER, the following statement could be made that (I'll debate) does not interfere/deviate from Lao Tzu...*IF* there is a God (and the question is an If, cuz a Taoist such as Lao Tzu wouldn't care so much as say, a Christian would), Good and Evil would yes, both still exist, because they are the same thing.

God cannot break the laws of Tao, because He/She comes from Tao. He/She might have created the Universe but even the Universe bows to the laws of Tao. This is not to mean that God is not Omnimpotent, because really, Omnimpotence does not exist. It cannot. Neither can a purely "Good" Universe, nor a truly "Evil" Universe. The issue of Omnipotence, for a Taoist, is a silly debate. If anything, one becomes "all powerfull" by working with and in accordance to the Tao. This is all that "God" does. "All powerful" does not mean being able to break Tao, but rather, being able to not disturb and work with Tao. And that means the existence of Good/Evil.

peace,
-Tp

----------------------------------------------

http://fivedeadlyeverythings.wordpress.com
bamf.

  

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EnigmatikOne
Member since May 26th 2003
57 posts
Mon May-26-03 01:02 AM

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39. "RE: God, evil, omnipotence"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>What do you think of this quote:
>
>Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not
>omnipotent.
>Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
>Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
>Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god?
>- Epicurus, Greek philosopher (342-270 BC)
>

This reminds me of Mackie's formulation of the problem of Evil. He basically says that a benevolent God and the existence of Evil are logically incompatible. My response: My problem is with the general notion that God, and Its actions, must be logically accessible and determinable by our human faculties. But what if every explanation is not accessible by logic? What if there are possible, illogical explanations? Mackie argues that even if the Paradox of Omnipotence can by solved by putting God outside of time, it would not be possible for there to be a God who binds himself by causal or logical laws" (a God who is unwilling to stop Evil, as described in the quote you mention). The Paradox he describes is basically the idea question of whether or not an omnipotent being can create something which he cannot then control. By placing God outside of time, we rob his actions of any temporal significance. But if this is true, then we cannot understand God as binding himself in such a way that allows him to first, create a thing, and then, subsequently, not be able to control it. In other words, such a God would be operating in a temporal way, which does not compute with the idea of God being outside of Time.
My problem, however is this: even if it is true that such an idea (of an a-temporal God who can commit temporal actions), does not logically compute, what difference does it make? Were talking about God. Since when must God acquiesce to, or conform to, our definitions of what is possible and what is not possible? Can we really seek to understand God in the same kind of way that we would approach understanding any other being? I suppose my question is, is God subject to our logic? Personally, I resolve the problem of evil by a complex system of beliefs that basically boils down: evil doesnt exist.

blaw.

  

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BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
51250 posts
Thu May-29-03 08:22 AM

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45. "RE: God, evil, omnipotence"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

In a final act of omnipotence, god doesn't have to exist to prove it.

I hate these kind of discussions because everything assumes too much. For example: God is a "HE", God is this, God is that. My answer to everyone is.

HOW DO YOU KNOW?

Religious texts? give me a fucking break.

As far as reality is concerned. Good and Evil do exist. Sin does exist and is defined as immoral and unjust action. Evil is necessary to the development of virtue. Without GREAT EVIL, there is no GREAT VIRTUE. Example: To be honest, is not to lie. Without Night, there is no Day, and so on and so forth.

Why people assume they know so much about an entity that may not even exist makes me furious. A TRUE practice of ignorance if you ask me. And also: "he was a wise man who invented the idea of God".

peace.

let's play ping pong ■

  

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EnigmatikOne
Member since May 26th 2003
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Sun Jun-01-03 02:15 AM

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46. "RE: God, evil, omnipotence"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          


>As far as reality is concerned. Good and Evil do exist. Sin
>does exist and is defined as immoral and unjust action. Evil
>is necessary to the development of virtue. Without GREAT
>EVIL, there is no GREAT VIRTUE. Example: To be honest, is
>not to lie. Without Night, there is no Day, and so on and so
>forth.
>

With regards to your argument for the existence of evil/sin - what is your criteria for distinguishing that which is just from that which is injust?

blaw.

  

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zamas
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47. "RE: God, evil, omnipotence"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

classical conception of omnipotent god is a god that can do anything...are you saying god cannot make good without evil? Somebody i know is a aetheist because he cant understand why a wholly good god allows gratuitus evil..i been lookin for some scripture addressing this.

"Ain't no future in yo frontin" -MC Breed

"I love the Lord, and if lovin the Lord is wrong, I dont wanna be right" -Reverend Brown

  

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Trinity444
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48. "God is the name of the species"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

>I hate these kind of discussions because everything assumes
>too much. For example: God is a "HE", God is this, God is
>that. My answer to everyone is.
>
>HOW DO YOU KNOW?
>
>Religious texts? give me a fucking break.

have you read it? the whole book? Now if you did then you wouldnt be asking for a break.

>As far as reality is concerned. Good and Evil do exist. Sin
>does exist and is defined as immoral and unjust action. Evil
>is necessary to the development of virtue. Without GREAT
>EVIL, there is no GREAT VIRTUE. Example: To be honest, is
>not to lie. Without Night, there is no Day, and so on and so
>forth.

and without God's laws there would be no sin!

>Why people assume they know so much about an entity that may
>not even exist makes me furious. A TRUE practice of
>ignorance if you ask me. And also: "he was a wise man who
>invented the idea of God".

assuming or faith? your not assuming anything because you have faith in what you believe. why is one considered ignorant because they have faith. You cant see it because you dont share the faith. For example how you be little the Most High, you havent read the book so for you to make a statement of such, shows your ignorance. Can you honestly say you read the Book and from what is written, how is any of it against us?

See, most people wont deny the exist of God or even how powerful God is, my question now is, SO WHY DONT YOU BELIEVE IN JESUS?

  

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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
5663 posts
Mon Jul-07-03 02:36 AM

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73. "I wrote a long reply"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

But I lost my connection. I don't feel like typing it all back out, so you get the short hand version...

>In a final act of omnipotence, god doesn't have to exist to
>prove it.

What do you mean? If God doesn't exist, how can He be omnipotent?

>I hate these kind of discussions because everything assumes
>too much. For example: God is a "HE", God is this, God is
>that. My answer to everyone is.
>
>HOW DO YOU KNOW?

We don't know. It's only faith and belief. How can you know anything? You have to take everything on belief when you get right down to it.

>Religious texts? give me a fucking break.

So what do you believe then?

>As far as reality is concerned. Good and Evil do exist. Sin
>does exist and is defined as immoral and unjust action. Evil
>is necessary to the development of virtue. Without GREAT
>EVIL, there is no GREAT VIRTUE. Example: To be honest, is
>not to lie. Without Night, there is no Day, and so on and so
>forth.

I agree. This doesn't rule out God though.

>Why people assume they know so much about an entity that may
>not even exist makes me furious.

Settle down, don't get furious. No one "assumes they know so much" about God - that's why we discuss things, to see what others believe and to try and make sense of it all, and reach a personal understanding. You seem hung up on this "may not even exist" thing - but what can you believe in that you know for a fact is real?

A TRUE practice of
>ignorance if you ask me.

Is it more ignorant to believe in something you cannot prove, or to not believe in anything you cannot prove? Think about that one.

And also: "he was a wise man who
>invented the idea of God".

The idea of God was "invented" independently throughout history, in virtually every culture that has ever existed. That means something, doesn't it? To me, it suggests that either there is some sort of God, or man has a strong need/desire to believe in one...

  

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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
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Mon Jun-09-03 06:10 AM

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49. "Up"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I'll respond when I have time...

  

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watdefok
Member since Jun 27th 2002
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Mon Jun-09-03 06:33 AM

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50. "What is the definition of evil?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Instead of seeing things in terms of "good" and "evil", try to see them in terms of things that work out for us, and things that don't.

Murder for example, doesn't benefit anybody. It makes people's lives miserable, and nobody ever got happy from killing anyone (although they probably often thought they would). Only if you take out someone who is about to take the lives of many others, does murder seem to be beneficial.
Even those who don't seem to feel any remorse when commiting first degree murder, are in that mental state due to a lack of love in their life. When somebody commits an act society considers evil, it is because at that particular time, they thought that it would be a decision that would improve their life. Even if somebody loses self-conrol in a fit of rage this applies. Because nobody ever does anything that they consider as wrong, at least not at the moment they do it.

Evil is not the opposite of good, but desperate manifestations of a lack of love. Which is what we all ultimately want - love. Good is the most effective way of finding it, evil is self-destructive. But if you have a lack of love in your life, whether due to how you were raised or because you closed yourself so you didn't receive what was sent to you, how could you possibly know that good is the way to find happiness?
Which is also why you can't possibly fight evil with evil.

A good example of how this works, is sibling rivalry. You know how kids get jealous when they get a new baby brother or sister? That's because they are affraid they will lose the love they get from their parents, and that may come to the point where they start hating their bro/sis, even hurt them. Why? Because they think that will make their lives better, oblivious to the hurt this wil cause. They see somebody else get the love that they are affraid to lose, and their immature minds figure that things will get solved if that new person will dissapear.
I'd rather call that ignorant of how things work, than evil.

  

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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
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Thu Jun-26-03 08:20 AM

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63. "It's hard to define evil w/o universal morality"
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

The only universal morality I can see would be real basic shit, like
- don't murder
- don't rape
- don't steal
- don't hurt people (hard to define "hurt" - but mostly I mean physically - this is really a subset of the first 2)

That's about it.

>Instead of seeing things in terms of "good" and "evil", try
>to see them in terms of things that work out for us, and
>things that don't.

"work out for us"?

>Murder for example, doesn't benefit anybody. It makes
>people's lives miserable, and nobody ever got happy from
>killing anyone (although they probably often thought they
>would).

People do benefit from it. If someone kills their rich parents, and doesn't get caught, now they're rich. For some morally lacking people, this would make them happy. But it's an evil act regardless of whether the person benefits from it or not.

>When somebody commits an act society
>considers evil, it is because at that particular time, they
>thought that it would be a decision that would improve their
>life.

This isn't always true. Those fucks at Columbine and shit like that - they weren't trying to improve their lives when they made those decisions. They were just mad at the world and wanted to hurt people. It didn't make them happy, and they knew it wouldn't make them happy even while they were doing it. So you can't convince me that they thought it would improve their life. They knew their lives would be fucked afterwards, but they didn't care.

Even if somebody loses self-conrol in a fit of rage
>this applies. Because nobody ever does anything that they
>consider as wrong, at least not at the moment they do it.

You've said this before, and I disagree. I've done plenty of things I consider wrong. I knew they were wrong when I did it. I did it anyway. In my case, this only refers to shoplifting or cheating on a test or something relatively mundane, but I knew it was wrong even at the moment I was doing it. People make decisions they know are wrong all the time, for various reasons.

>Evil is not the opposite of good, but desperate
>manifestations of a lack of love.

Interesting idea. I don't think I can agree though.

Which is what we all
>ultimately want - love.

Love or happiness? For most people, love is a requirement for happiness, but not for everyone. Some people truly want to be alone.

Good is the most effective way of
>finding it, evil is self-destructive. But if you have a lack
>of love in your life, whether due to how you were raised or
>because you closed yourself so you didn't receive what was
>sent to you, how could you possibly know that good is the
>way to find happiness?

I think there are people who had plenty of love and were wll-adjusted, but still did "evil" things. Sometimes people just snap.

  

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Trinity444
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56. "RE: God, evil, omnipotence"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

^

  

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Nettrice
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57. "He?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Every since I was little girl I had a problem with that...maybe because of my father. Now, I think that God is Divine spirit, not a representation of man...it's the other way around and rather than put a label on the Divine I choose to open myself to spirit. That being said God is in everything, the energy dynamic that is life/living/flow. God is not about prevention or even a being. While humans attempt to label a dynamic that they can barely fathom, life continues.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
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Fri Jun-20-03 02:13 AM

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58. "Interesting"
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

I'm not trying to put a label on your beliefs, but your description reminds me a little bit of wicca - that God is in everything, and God is a spirit that encompasses all of nature, the energy dynamic...

Do you practice/associate with any specific religion, or are those just personal beliefs? I am just curious.

  

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Nettrice
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62. "It's all personal"
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

I don't do religion...anymore.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Bluebear
Member since Apr 06th 2003
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Fri Jun-20-03 02:18 AM

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59. "This is one of the reasons i don't believe"
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

There just can't be any common ground, either this being is all loving or he isn't. You can't be all loving and vengeful at the same time. And this concept of heaven and hell is so flawed logically, do all people that do not accept whatever relgion go to hell, if so then god has done them a grave injustice because it was no fault of their own that they were not exposed, if so then those who were exposed to religion but chose not to follow it were done an injustice because god knew they were not going to because of predistination. The whole argument is flawed and don't give me that faith stuff, I think religion is like taking a multiple choice test and saying well since i dont know i'm going to guess, sometimes the best answer is we don't know yet.

"You have not converted a man because you have silenced him" -John Viscount Morley


"I'd like to quit thinking of the present, like right now, as some minor, insignificant preamble to somethin' else."

http://www.myspace.com/kofi3

  

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6_1_flo
Member since Apr 15th 2003
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Thu Jun-26-03 05:53 PM

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64. "I read Isaiah 45:7 which says "I form light and create."
In response to Reply # 0


          

darkness: I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do these things". This verse has really changed my view of God and made me re-evaluate what I thought I believed. Now I really desire to study Hebrew and study early manuscripts instead of King James Version.

H!L album: Tremors Of A Remix @
http://hil2.bandcamp.com
twitter.com/ihilbot
facebook.com/yahzone
soundlyfemusic@gmail.com

  

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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
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Wed Jul-02-03 02:31 AM

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65. "Wow - this verse helps my argument..."
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

I form light and create darkness
I make peace and create evil
I the Lord do these things

So, those of you who have been arguing that God does not create evil - how do you react to this?

  

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Trinity444
Charter member
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Wed Jul-02-03 03:11 AM

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66. "God proves man thru satan"
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

>I form light and create darkness
>I make peace and create evil
>I the Lord do these things
>
>So, those of you who have been arguing that God does not
>create evil - how do you react to this?

My reaction God's way of life does not create evil people. Because he is the creator of "all" including satan himself but let's not forget he controls satan also! whatcha think He's coming to do....destroy evil (satan) once and for all.

I dont see how anyone can change their view on how the Lord operates unless you take things out of contexts.

what do you think this verse means...is it not true?

  

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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
5663 posts
Wed Jul-02-03 04:10 AM

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67. "RE: God proves man thru satan"
In response to Reply # 66


  

          

>My reaction God's way of life does not create evil people.

You've said this before. I see what you are getting at, in that following God's "will" (as dictated by the Bible) generally does not lead to evil (though certain examples can be cited as evil, especially old testament scriptures about stoning people to death and such - I don't have time to look these up, so let's not argue this point for now).

So you're saying God created evil as a temptation for man to stray from his path?

>Because he is the creator of "all" including satan himself
>but let's not forget he controls satan also!

I guess the whole point of this post is WHY did he create Satan and evil in the first place? Why did he want evil to exist? It is within His power to rid the world of evil, so what is He waiting for?

>I dont see how anyone can change their view on how the Lord
>operates unless you take things out of contexts.

I didn't change my view on how the Lord operates. I just thought that quote supported my stance because previously you had said that God didn't create evil, man created evil by defying God's will...

>what do you think this verse means...is it not true?
I wouldn't call it "true" since it cannot be proven (if the definition of truth = something concrete that can be proven). I agree with it since I believe in God, but those who don't believe in God would not agree at all of course.

  

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Trinity444
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Wed Jul-02-03 04:31 AM

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68. "RE: God proves man thru satan"
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

>>My reaction God's way of life does not create evil people.
>
>You've said this before. I see what you are getting at, in
>that following God's "will" (as dictated by the Bible)
>generally does not lead to evil (though certain examples can
>be cited as evil, especially old testament scriptures about
>stoning people to death and such - I don't have time to look
>these up, so let's not argue this point for now).

Im always going to say" God's way of life dont create evil people" because it is true! Im glad to hear your getting it. That is our duty as MAN (to do the will of the Father)The stoning people...why do you and other's make it seem as if these people who were stone were innocent people...if they were, would they be stoned? God does not contradict himself. There were laws and if someone broke them, sometimes the sentence was death. But your right, we can discuss that later.


>So you're saying God created evil as a temptation for man to
>stray from his path?

No! The Most High wants us to do his will. But once you repent and be baptized he will prove you. Purge you and purge you. I like to call it preparing you for battle!

>>Because he is the creator of "all" including satan himself
>>but let's not forget he controls satan also!
>
>I guess the whole point of this post is WHY did he create
>Satan and evil in the first place? Why did he want evil to
>exist? It is within His power to rid the world of evil, so
>what is He waiting for?

Satan didnt start out as evil, he chose to be. God did not WANT evil exist it would defeat the whole purpose of this plan. What's God waiting for before he rid the world of evil...all prophecy to be fulfilled.

>>I dont see how anyone can change their view on how the Lord
>>operates unless you take things out of contexts.
>
>I didn't change my view on how the Lord operates. I just
>thought that quote supported my stance because previously
>you had said that God didn't create evil, man created evil
>by defying God's will...

I guess I need to choose my words wisely and I am working on that. but do you get me now?


>>what do you think this verse means...is it not true?
>I wouldn't call it "true" since it cannot be proven (if the
>definition of truth = something concrete that can be
>proven). I agree with it since I believe in God, but those
>who don't believe in God would not agree at all of course.

that's cool, because just like Christ told the disciples when they asked Him, why He spoke to the people in parables. It's not for them to know! Those that are of Christ will understand.



  

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6_1_flo
Member since Apr 15th 2003
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Thu Jul-03-03 06:07 PM

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69. "I agree about..."
In response to Reply # 68


          

the law and being punished for not following it. And I believe that things we perceive as being "bad" are for our greater benefit, peep the Death of Jesus. The whole purpose of this life and all things is for God to be glorified, regardless the circumstance. Everything is going to praise the Lord. At the name of Jesus, every knee is going to bow. But I still am seeking the Lord to give me understanding of creating "evil" and what part it plays in "His" plan, if the purpose is to rid to keep us away from "evil". Maybe it's one of those things of sovereignty and I'm not allowed to ask about(see the story of Job). Cuz I wasn't here when God laid the foundations of the World so I don't have audacity to ask. I don't know.

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al_kaleem19
Member since Jun 30th 2003
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Fri Jul-04-03 05:08 AM

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70. "RE: I agree about..."
In response to Reply # 69


  

          

The english word god is a word deriving from the german/gothic gott which means good. I ain't here tryng to offend any christians, I know a lot of christians both white and non-white, but the biblical word god isn't as godly as the word Allah. May you break it up, down, but the arabic meaning of the word is The Infinite, Everlasting, Almighty, Ruler. I believe in god, but I don't believe in either a spook god or the trinity god of christianity. For me god, whom i refer to as Allah is what controls, creates...
HE is not a spirit, force, or human thought. Allah is Allah. That's godly. I respect all beliefs, my parents are sunni-muslim, and i was raised like that, but i think the sects wheter they are muslim, christian, jew or whatever. I think they to complicated to follow. Mind trap anyone? Well that's how I feel. You need to be free to gain knowledge, wisdom and insight on this life's subjects, but no matter, peace to everybody. Hope y'all discover somethin good 4 yoselves...

My Physical actions turns my beliefs into practice/ I accumulate knowledge to disperse it on deck/

My Physical actions turns my beliefs into practice/ I accumulate knowledge to disperse it on deck/

  

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Trinity444
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Sun Jul-06-03 03:45 AM

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71. "this my help"
In response to Reply # 69


  

          

> But I still am seeking the Lord to give me understanding of
>creating "evil" and what part it plays in "His" plan, if the
>purpose is to rid to keep us away from "evil".


When you say,"creating evil" what do you mean by this?

back to Isa.4

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

reading this verse...is it a lie? Is God not the Creator!

what I think:

people take this verse and run with it. Convincing themselves and others that what God is saying is that He causes evil. your looking at it from the prespective that because God created man therefore He created evil. It doesnt stop there!

It's no reason to second guess the Creator, finsh reading the chapter and see what happens to those that striveth with The Maker!

It plays no part in His plan, NONE...but you read the Book you know that!

James 1:13-14

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

God does not tempt us to do evil...God's way of life dont create evil people. Every man does evil (sin) when that is what he is filled with. If you have sinful thoughts...and you act on them...that is sin and being drawn away by your own lust. When you have God's thoughts (HIS WORD)your drawn by his spirt. The more you learn to understand the manner of the Creator the more you will understand that by no means, is evil apart of His plan for salvation.

Shalom

  

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6_1_flo
Member since Apr 15th 2003
3869 posts
Sun Jul-06-03 10:47 PM

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72. "RE: this my help"
In response to Reply # 71


          

> But I still am seeking the Lord to give me understanding of
>creating "evil" and what part it plays in "His" plan, if the
>purpose is to rid to keep us away from "evil".

When you say,"creating evil" what do you mean by this?

back to Isa.4

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

reading this verse...is it a lie? Is God not the Creator!

what I think:

people take this verse and run with it. Convincing themselves and others that what God is saying is that He causes evil. your looking at it from the prespective that because God created man therefore He created evil. It doesnt stop there!

It's no reason to second guess the Creator, finsh reading the chapter and see what happens to those that striveth with The Maker!

It plays no part in His plan, NONE...but you read the Book you know that!

James 1:13-14

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

God does not tempt us to do evil...God's way of life dont create evil people. Every man does evil (sin) when that is what he is filled with. If you have sinful thoughts...and you act on them...that is sin and being drawn away by your own lust. When you have God's thoughts (HIS WORD)your drawn by his spirt. The more you learn to understand the manner of the Creator the more you will understand that by no means, is evil apart of His plan for salvation.

I'm not second guessing Yahweh as being Lord, but I was just pondering the purpose of evil, in regards to Yahweh's view and its relation to US. I know that Jesus died for the sins of the world and that His sacrifice applies to those who believe, meaning that He made a way for us to not have to walk in sin, evil, and shame. I've prayed about Isaiah 4 and what was given to me was that the Lord is creator of ALL things, no one else, the Lord has power, no one else, over ALL things, small and great, bad or good.

H!L album: Tremors Of A Remix @
http://hil2.bandcamp.com
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soundlyfemusic@gmail.com

  

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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
5663 posts
Thu Jul-17-03 03:38 AM

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74. "Archive"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I'm sure this subject will arise again, so archiving this would be cool.

  

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BarTek
Member since Nov 10th 2002
51250 posts
Thu Jul-17-03 07:15 AM

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76. "RE: God, evil, omnipotence"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

God is simply an idea.

Have you ever thought of yourself as God? have you ever worshipped yourself?

we have been conditioned to roleplay. throughout our day we adapt to certain situations such as work and "adapt" to them and therefore become these creations. if we are able to create entire personas of ourseves to fit the environment, how can you possibly think that we have the ability to understand what god is. i can only agree that there is a force which governs life because that is what i have seen and felt but outside of it i have not felt anything. the bible is not the devine word of god, the bible was written by human beings who are passing a doctrine of belief. and this very belief is a nihilistic practice which finds itself into our lives on a daily basis. if you truly understand the pscyhological effects of a christian belief system you will understand that your life has been influenced beyond your understanding. for eg.

how brilliant was the man who thought of the idea of a hero,
a messiah,
a leader,
a king,
an emperor,
his highness, hahahah
and ofcourse,
god,

i don't think i have to go into detail and say why this is relevant. here is another.

the idea of a knight in shining armour saving the princess is a christian idea. it was founded during the crusades. the knight plays the role of the "hero" when he saves the princess. historically many girls were held in their homes by corrupt musclim leaders. "princess locked up in the tower" and the "heroic knight in shining armour came to save her". this is simply to teach our kids the idea of 1 man who is able to do remarkable things such as jesus.

i personally think christianity is a belief which devalues real value. the idea of "dying for your country" or "dying for someone" are christian ideas. jesus apparently died for us on our sins. it is everywhere and the real goal is to be able to identify how it affects your mind and your thoughts and break the programming and you will be 1 step closer to a truth that you will never find in 100000 years of existence.

i think that if you want to find an answer, you have to be able to become "unatached" to your own mind. as i have mentioned, we role play, i am role playing as we speak. we role play as intellectuals, revolutionaties, hip hoppers, etc etc etc. try to look at your personality and find aspects of it which do not fall under the category of role playing.

peace.

let's play ping pong ■

  

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6_1_flo
Member since Apr 15th 2003
3869 posts
Thu Jul-17-03 08:12 PM

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77. "Well when do you stop role playing in life???"
In response to Reply # 76


          

???

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soundlyfemusic@gmail.com

  

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