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Chris40
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500 posts
Fri Jul-18-03 08:55 AM

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"Does black america have real wealth?"
Fri Jul-18-03 09:02 AM

          

Consumer nation!
By Cinque Muhammad

Black America squanders potential power through spending habits

CHICAGO (FinalCall.com)--If Black America were an independent country, its wealth would rank it as the 11th richest in the world, according to a consumer research document that analyzes Black spending power annually.
But, that spending power is being squandered, observers note, relegating Black America to economic slavery, instead of financial freedom.

"The Buying Power of Black America" recently was released by Target Market News Inc. (TMN), a Chicago-based marketing research group. The analysis of Black spending power last year showed that some $631 billion flowed through Black hands. By comparison, the United States ranked first in Gross National Income (GNI), at $9.6 trillion in year 2000 figures.

"That comparison that we published is designed to get people to respect us as an economic force, but the truth is we donít behave in the same way those nations do. So while the comparison is not totally there, it makes a point that we are an economic force," TMN Editor Ken Smikle told The Final Call. "Folks wonder why we donít spend more money with us, but the real issue is we donít have access to capital to build businesses that are convenient to where we shop and where we live.

"Our expectations are understandable because of the centuries of discrimination weíve suffered, and folks want to see us be the answer to our own problems that we didnít create. But asking us to go out of our way to do something that nobody has to do because of a circumstance we didnít create or perpetuate, I think, is unrealistic," he continued.

Mr. Smikle refutes the idea that the circulation of money in a community can be documented. And he argues that economic independence can be arrived at, if Black Americans reach out to build trade relationships with the international market.

"We donít want to become an isolated community that only circulates its dollars amongst itself. Weíre part of the world and we have to spend our money with the world," he said.

But others argue that a focus on circulating more money within the Black community is key to economic empowerment, and that spending power does not necessarily equate to economic strength.

"There is no such thing as consumer power; its an oxymoronic term," claims Dr. Claude Anderson, author of the book, "Powernomics." In a capitalistic society, he argues, producers, distributors and sellers have power over the consumers, and that Black Americans are exactly where they were in 1860 on the eve of the Civil War.

"At that time, 98 percent of the Black people in America were enslaved and we had half of one percent of this nationís wealth. One hundred and forty years later, when weíre supposed to be free, we still have half of one percent of the wealth of the richest nation on earth."

Group economics
A major reason for Black Americaís failure is the inability to recycle its money within its communities, he implied. Nearly all of Black income is spent directly outside of Black hands, because Blacks do not practice group economicsópooling of money, focusing it into one geographical area and purchasing in a bloc, he added.

A perfect example of group economics, according to Dr. Anderson, was accomplished in the Greenwood District of Tulsa, Okla., in the early 1900sóa time when legal segregation forced Blacks to do business among themselves. Commonly referred to as "Black Wall Street," the area became a nationally recognized entrepreneurial center, as dollars circulated 36 to 1,000 times within the Black community, according to authors Jay Wilson and Ron Wallace in their book on the subject.

Among over 600 successful businesses were 21 churches, 21 restaurants, 30 grocery stores and two movie theaters, plus a hospital, a bank, a post office, libraries, schools, law offices, a half-dozen private airplanes, and even a bus system. On a fateful June 1, 1921, the business district was bombed from the air and burned to the ground in a riot by mobs of envious Whites, including ranking city officials.

Today, there are 38.3 million Blacks in America and over 400,000 Black businesses, according to Dr. Anderson. He claims that in the past 25 years, other ethnic groups have increased their disposable income and out-produced Blacks in wealth because they practice group economics, resulting in the creation of more businesses.

"One out of every 10 Asians is in business; one out of 35 Whites is in business; one out of every 54 Hispanics is in business; and only one out of every 104 Blacks is in business," he said.

Dr. Anderson encourages Blacks to use what he calls competitive advantage in industries where Blacks dominate in consumer patterns or in population.

"If you consume more leather than anyone else, you should be manufacturing leather," he said. "Blacks need to come together, pool their resources, build industries around their competitive advantages and control everything from the resources at the bottom to the manufacturing and production, warehousing and distributing, all the way to retail market at the top, and confine their money by buying Black and selling to any color.

"Otherwise, they will never be able to survive in this society," he said.

Land, the basis of wealth
Dr. Ridgely Muhammad, an agricultural economist and manager of Muhammad Farms, said that the definition of "slave"óa person who has lost control of himself and is dominated by something or someoneódescribes the economic condition of most Blacks in America.

He points to the Economic Program of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad as a solution to the ills of the Black community. And it starts with the land, he said.

"When I heard the Hon. Elijah Muhammad say that agriculture is the root of civilization, I changed my major in undergraduate school from architectural engineering to agricultural economics," he said.

"The children of Israel were taken out of Egypt and given he Promised Land so they could be a free people. There has never been in the history of the world a people who were free and independent with no land. The number one thing a nation must do is feed its people," he said.

Dr. Muhammad said that the American agricultural economy is being slowly worn down, explaining that 90 percent of family farm income comes from off-farm employment.

To help save Black farms, he proposes that Blacks in each city form a buying group to collectively purchase produce in bulk orders for distribution throughout the community. Several major cities, he said, have buyers clubs successfully underway. He also commended the POWER company and MATAH network for striving to lead in the manufacturing and distribution of Black products and goods.

"Weíve got good jobs, but we end up paying the money right back to the people who weíre working for. The White manís system only works if there is a slave, because the Ďupper crustí doesnít do any work. They call it capitalism," he said.

According to Dr. Jawanza Kunjufu, author and publisher of "Black Economics: Solutions for Economic and Community Empowerment," the three ways to develop wealth are entrepreneurial ventures, real estate or the stock market.

A recent Chicago Sun Times report showed that Black investment in the market dropped from 74 percent last year to a current 61 percent, and that Blacks are looking into real estate as a more viable investment option.

The TMN report says that housing was Black Americaís greatest expenditure in 2002, at over $131 billion.

Entrepreneurship, which Dr. Kunjufu said was championed for Black Americans by the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and Marcus Garvey, offers many challenges. He claims, however, that Black Americans could maintain their communities, despite a nine-year peak in unemployment, by supporting Black businesses.

"For every $1 billion that we spend with each other, we employ 50,000 more of our people," he said.

Asians and Jews circulate money better, he said, because they make decisions based on community, while Blacks make decisions based on price. But Blacks hesitate to support Black merchants because their prices may be higher or the same as the competitor, he added.

The challenge also lies, he said, in location. The 25 percent of Black households that earn a substantial income live in the suburbs where there are considerably fewer Black businesses, said Dr. Kunjufu.

"If your best Black minds do not live or work, spend, volunteer or invest in the Black community, can it be anything else but a ghetto?" he asked.

"We have a lot of income, but we donít have a lot of wealth. And we donít have wealth, because we simply transfer our wealth to others by spending most of that with businesses other than our own," said James Clingman, who is an adjunct professor at the University of Cincinnati and founder of the Greater Cincinnati African American Chamber of Commerce.

Mr. Clingman echoed others who say that control of manufacturing, production and distribution are key to economic empowerment. But he also contends that Blacks have psychological barriers.

"Weíre also rich in intellectual capacity, and thatís what bothers me," he continued. "If most of us were not psychologically enslaved, we would be spending with one another, we would be building more businesses and supporting them, we would be pooling our capital and pooling our intellectual resources and doing more for our people, just like others are doing in this country.

"The only reason I see for us being the most educated and intellectual Black people on this earth, and having nearly $700 billion go through our hands and still be in the condition that weíre in, is that weíre still psychologically enslaved. Thereís no way that this White man can do to us what he does and we just accept it. We have to stop accepting it. Turn inwards, look inwards to our own resources and do more for ourselves, regardless of what he does," he said.


  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
The Real Issue
Jul 18th 2003
1
So M2
Jul 19th 2003
2
My beef with M2's
Jul 19th 2003
3
Wealth Building is Simple Math
Jul 19th 2003
7
the east indian community in houston
Jul 19th 2003
4
RE: the east indian community in houston
Jul 19th 2003
5
Based on What?
Jul 19th 2003
8
      I guess you have to see it to understand
Jul 19th 2003
9
           Okay.......
Jul 19th 2003
10
                lol
Jul 19th 2003
14
                     Abandon Fantasy
Jul 19th 2003
15
Missing the Point Entirely
Jul 19th 2003
6
At the risk of sounding ignorant..
Jul 20th 2003
18
      It wasn't meant as a Rebuttal
Jul 20th 2003
22
RE: So M2
Jul 19th 2003
11
Excellent Points
Jul 19th 2003
12
RE: So M2
Jul 20th 2003
17
      not nearly on the same level
Jul 20th 2003
20
RE: The Real Issue
Jul 20th 2003
16
Which only enriches certain individuals
Jul 20th 2003
23
      RE: Which only enriches certain individuals
Jul 21st 2003
28
RE: The Real Issue
Jul 21st 2003
30
      Prove me Wrong
Jul 21st 2003
31
In my center
Jul 19th 2003
13
the trend of convergence.
Jul 20th 2003
19
      RE: the trend of convergence.
Jul 20th 2003
21
           can u elaborate
Jul 22nd 2003
32
                RE: can u elaborate
Jul 22nd 2003
33
                     Further
Jul 23rd 2003
37
                          RE: Further
Jul 23rd 2003
38
the main issue
Jul 20th 2003
24
ding ding ding
Jul 22nd 2003
34
Defining Wealth Building
Jul 20th 2003
25
great post M2
Jul 22nd 2003
35
      Seek and you shall find
Jul 22nd 2003
36
nice read
Jul 20th 2003
26
80% of all Businesses fail in Five Years
Jul 21st 2003
27
I USED THE WRONG TITLE TO THIS TREAD!!!!
Jul 21st 2003
29

M2
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Fri Jul-18-03 11:22 PM

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1. "The Real Issue"
In response to Reply # 0


          


Isn't about spending "Black" - as the idea that Jews and Asians spend with each other more than outsiders is inherently false, as I've grown up around both groups and see them shopping at the same white owned places that I do.

Particularly when you consider that the most affluent of both groups typcially live around mostly whites.

If we're going to use other groups as an example - we should at least understand what they're doing -- just because we spend with a Black Businesses doesn't mean that business is going to hire more Blacks or even build wealth for anyone but the owner. Instead of throwing around conjecture and false facts - let's start throwing around bona-fide economic models and actual facts, particularly with regards to ways to build wealth.

The fact that the Wealthiest Blacks live around few Black Businesses isn't the reason there is a Wealth Gap - the fact that Blacks are quite lax in engaging in wealth building activities is.

Just think about it - if the wealthiest Blacks spend with Black owned business, how does that help those of us who don't work for that business or who aren't owners of it? Better yet - what's the real economic difference between working for a successful Black Business or a Successful White One in terms of building wealth?

At best - the author is discussing Income Solutions, not wealth ones and both Income Solutions and Wealth Solutions are needed - better yet, far reaching solutions are needed - as spending Black touches few of us.


Let's look at the fact that Jews, Asians and East Indians typically send their children to college to major in ludcrative careers and that these people often use the income from their jobs to help start businesses with family members or in addition to their own jobs - the point is, these people are doing a better job of generating income.

I have many Asian and East Indian colleagues in the IT field who own a business in addition to their Tech Job, many of these businesses have been started with family members. The point here - is tht people are using their earning potential to help their families increase their income potential to. If everyone does that on a family level - we're all better off.

When I lived in Suburban Philly - a local Chinese Food Place Exploded and Burned to the ground, the local authorities had trouble locating the owners because over 40 people had pooled their money to open that business. THAT'S COLLECTIVE ECONOMICS! Doing something that helps YOU and SOMEONE else - 40 people pool their money, spread the risk around and start several businesses. (This same group owned several Chinese Restaurants in the Philly area).

The above is real collective economics - it goes beyond shopping at a particular place, it instead consists of people working together for a bona-fide economic benefit.

Real Wealth Building - so you started a Dry Cleaners - and you're rolling in the cash and you look at the cat who works for someone else and makes similar money and think that you're building wealth and he isn't -- because you own a business.

WRONG!

You build wealth via the following:

-Investing
-Saving
-Managing your money wisely

Owning a business, in of itself, doesn't neccessarily constitute wealth. While the valuation of the business "can" count towards your net worth, many private firms aren't worth much without their original owners, nor can they operate without them. SO there are a lot of issues with regards to exit strategies, making sure the business can run without you, that the business is viable with regards to being able to be sold easily, that need to be addressed before a business constitutes "wealth" per se.

The point is that you could own a successful Land Scaping Business that brings you say, 250k in profit per year - and you could easily end up with less wealth than someone who earns a similar amount for a job (Even less), if they save and invest better - AND if you have difficulty selling the business when you want to retire.

That's my real problem with the Article - it throws around a lot of Ideas, but it doesn't really address the idea of building wealth.

An article discussing the use of 401ks, IRAs, Investmenting, budgeting so one can save to buy a home, money management, etc - will be more valuable to most people.

The country is full of people who built wealth from their jobs and for the average person, that is their best bet.

Finally - the Article's point that we're doing no better than we were doing Slave times in terms of our % of the Nation's Wealth is extremely misleading.

Yes, the % is the same as it was back during Slavery - BUT - Black people didn't have spending power equal to the GDP of the 11th largest nation back then either - not even close. Nor does it account for the fact that it probably DROPPED to a much lower % during various times in our nation's history.

Plus - in this day and age, the uber-wealth control a much larger percentage of the Nation's wealth than they did back in say 1860 or even 1970 for that matter - meaning that for 99% of the citizens in this country, their % of total wealth has decreased - the fact our % is still the same is actually a sign of progress, it should have decreased.

Finally - As I pointed out two years ago:
http://www.okayplayer.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=2823&forum=DCForumID1&viewmode=threaded

Black Incomes are increasing faster than anyone else's - and there is a significant wealth Gap amongst Blacks & Whites of similar incomes - so the problem is not so much who we spend with, but the fact that we're not saving and investing.

SO again - spending with different color people will not solve anything, saving and investing willl.


Peace,







M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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k_orr
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Sat Jul-19-03 05:45 AM

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2. "So M2"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

how do you explain the "Chinatown" epidemic?

In my hometown, Houston, Chinese, Vietnamese, and some Koreans, pretty much bought all the retail space on Bellaire (South West Houston). There are actually a few economic/ethnic enclaves in Houston, but I'll just speak on the one i've been to the most.

They were 3 Chinese banks (with Chinese speaking tellers)
A few insurance companies, a lot of clothing stores, 1 major asian supermarket (with several other ones around the city, and at least one in Austin), import/export spots, furniture places, doctors and lawyer offices, and hella restaurants, bars and clubs. Keep in mind this is all happening on the span of 6-7 blocks. (and there are other strong holds)

Most of the shopkeepers all spoke some Asian language. It was difficult to ask any sort of questions/get service without having a 'representative' if you will.

You mean to tell me that a Chinatown, that primarily serves their community, but offers goods and services to outsiders (but does not need them), is something that doesn't exist?

I find that very hard to believe. I find it counterintuitive.

Do you have an economic studies to back up your assertions?
Has anyone studied where the money in Asian communities goes?

My Asian friends do buy cars and merino sweaters at the same places I do, but some culturally specific products, they go somewhere else. When it comes time to eat, Korea Garden, Mongolian BBQ, Pho Thai Soon, are all mentioned before Eric's BBQ. If they want to open their own business, and their own banks won't help them out, many pool their family resources (ie no interest or low interest loans), and open up shop.

You've had this line of logic for a while now, and i'm wondering where does it come from, outside of your personal experiences.

Because my personal experiences differ. And I'm more apt to believe my eyes and all the economic build up in the city I grew up in.

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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Brooklynbeef
Member since May 30th 2002
4649 posts
Sat Jul-19-03 07:20 AM

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3. "My beef with M2's"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

logic is that he sees wealth exclusively in conventional economic terms and ignores social engineering and how politics and government policy have been use to make some groups wealthy and other groups improvised. I don't have the all the solutions but I'm sure the solutions to Black folks predicament won't be answered in the orthodoxy of Forbes magazine or the wall Street journal.

"Forget Black History Month, how about live an African History Life"-Ansley Burrows

  

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M2
Charter member
10072 posts
Sat Jul-19-03 01:27 PM

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7. "Wealth Building is Simple Math"
In response to Reply # 3


          

>logic is that he sees wealth exclusively in conventional
>economic terms and ignores social engineering and how
>politics and government policy have been use to make some
>groups wealthy and other groups improvised. I don't have
>the all the solutions but I'm sure the solutions to Black
>folks predicament won't be answered in the orthodoxy of
>Forbes magazine or the wall Street journal.

While it is true that Politics and Social Engineering have caused some to be Wealthy and Some to be Poor - the solutions for building wealth are still the same, and don't change because of it.

Look at all the Black people who have incomes in excess of 50k - but have the wealth of Whites who make less than 25k, social-issues may be the root cause behind various financial missteps leading to that disparity. BUT - it doesn't change the fact that all one has to do, is change the way they manage their money and they can change the fact their total wealth is less than a poor White Families.

Black people spend too much money and don't save and invest enough, the solution to that problem is EXACTLY the same as it would be for a Blonde Haired, Blue Eyed White Family that spends too much.

A lot of our Problems (as Black People) are social, so we try to look at economic ones through the same Prism - thing is, they're just business/financial/economic problems that can be solved via the Orthodoxy of the Wall St. Journal.

Black Professionals, in terms of savings, financial stability and wealth - live like White Blue Collar People - regardless of the social issues that may have caused that situation - standard Wealth Building Practices can solve it.

In the end, it's just Mathematics.


Peace,






M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Belief
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18452 posts
Sat Jul-19-03 07:26 AM

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4. "the east indian community in houston"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

is like that, too...they need no outside dollars to thrive


***************************
I just made you up
to hurt myself
and it worked
yes it did!

  

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Whateva
Member since Jul 07th 2003
4637 posts
Sat Jul-19-03 11:47 AM

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5. "RE: the east indian community in houston"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

Is that not the same situation that happened in Tulsa only on a smaller scale?

Personally I think it's a psychological thing. Black owned businesses run by Black people are the most boycotted by Blacks. It's just like that. We can't stand each other.



***************************************
"Science" and Religion are the two most dangerous weapons of ideology. See holocaust.

Why do "scientists" constantly produce statistics based on "race", a social construct?

  

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M2
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10072 posts
Sat Jul-19-03 01:30 PM

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8. "Based on What?"
In response to Reply # 4


          


It's practically impossible for any Community to be economically independent - most enclaves are working class, not affluent - E.g. Even if outside dollars bring in 10% of their total revenue, losing that 10% will hurt them - some won't be able to survive without it, which will only hurt the community further because of it's economic interdependence, which would then create a economically crippling ripple effect.



Peace,







M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Belief
Charter member
18452 posts
Sat Jul-19-03 01:52 PM

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9. "I guess you have to see it to understand"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

but they have a part of town that is nothing but sari shops, indian restaurants, indian food markets, jewelry shops, etc. they don't sell one American product in their shops; everything they sell comes from and caters to indian culture. they close their restaurants at certain times of the day to coincide with the times they would close them in india, around 1pm or 2pm. they open back up for dinner, but they keep their culture 'in tact' in that way. it's rare that I go into a sari shop and see any other person there that is not indian. not to say that people other than indian people don't shop there, but i'm in those shops frequently (more window shopping than anything) and I rarely see anyone enter the shops who is not indian.

it's based on what I see and what I've experienced being around their shops.


***************************
I just made you up
to hurt myself
and it worked
yes it did!

  

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M2
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Sat Jul-19-03 02:01 PM

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10. "Okay......."
In response to Reply # 9


          


BUT - does everyone who shops in those shops only derive their income from other Indians?

If people who derive their income from White People shop there, than it's not self-sufficient.




Peace,






M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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k_orr
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80197 posts
Sat Jul-19-03 09:31 PM

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14. "lol"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

>
>BUT - does everyone who shops in those shops only derive
>their income from other Indians?
>
>If people who derive their income from White People shop
>there, than it's not self-sufficient.

C'mon M2, understand the substance of her argument.


http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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M2
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Sat Jul-19-03 10:25 PM

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15. "Abandon Fantasy"
In response to Reply # 14


          


There is no such thing as an economically self sufficent community in the United States.

While some people like to fantasize that such a thing could exist so that people's of various ethnic groups could cut themselves off the majority, it just doesn't exist, nor is it possible.

Even if most of the people shopping there are Indian - unless 100% of those shoppers derive their income from businesses/jobs exist in that very community, it's not self sufficient and gets outside dollars and from the standpoint of those receiving the dollars - it makes no difference - a customer is a customer.

It time to stop talking about fantasies and theoretical "multipliers" that don't apply to our current economic dynamics and talk about real solutions.

Articles about budgets and investing will do more for building Black Wealth than the constant cry of "Buy Black".



Peace,







M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

        
M2
Charter member
10072 posts
Sat Jul-19-03 01:21 PM

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6. "Missing the Point Entirely"
In response to Reply # 2
Sat Jul-19-03 01:36 PM

          

Growing up, I used to go to Chinatown in NYC on an almost monthly basis, so I'm well aware of the phenomenon, particularly since (IMO) the Chinatowns of other cities, pale in comparison to the one in NYC (With the exception of San Fran). In fact - nothing I said, disabuses the idea that a Chinatown exists and works.

Hence the title: "Missing the Point Entirely"

The problem with looking to Chinatown and trying to use it as an economic model that Blacks (or another group can use) to create wealth or elevate themselves economically, ignores several fundamental issues, which if analyzed clearly, show it simply won't work for other groups.

#1. Chinatown is a unique situation, where every possible service one needs can be acquired within a few Blocks from your home, from a service provider/vendor who is the same race as you - these owners/employees of these businesses will also purchase their goods and services from your business as well. E.g. There is a level of economic-interdependence that simply doesn't exist in other communities.

You can't take the Chinatown economic model and apply it to Blacks because we don't have that level of economic interdependence on each other, nor do we live in areas where we own all the land and all of the businesses. When you live in Chinatown and Spend Local - you're invariably helping yourself becuase those dollars will come back your way, when you spend Black it's often a one way transaction that doesn't come back to you.

See the difference?

In terms of group wealth building - money has to go back and forth.

You can't apply that model to Blacks because the economic context is COMPLETELY different.

#2. These neighborhoods aren't economically self-sufficient - that's the impression people have, but it's not true. Now I've never been to the Chinatown in Houston, but I know that in the one in NYC - there are a lot of Businesses selling trinkets, knock off Watches & Clothing and dozens of other items that are AIMED at Outsiders. Furthermore, aside from the Banks, Insurance Companies and Travel Agencies - you'll see outsiders shopping at practically all the businesses in the area.

Recognizing that these are primarily retail companies - E.g. Businesses that are High Volume/Low Margin - even if Outsiders only account for 15% of revenue, losing that 15% could put some people out of businesses, (or severely hurt them) - which only ripple throughout the community because of the high level of interdependence.

Even a business that doesn't generate its revenue from outsiders will be hurt because their customers will have less money to spend.

That's simple economics - consumer spending driving the economy.

#3. There was a post on this board a couple of weeks ago, about how not all Asians are as wealthy as the stereotype denotes, particularly in Urban Areas. This is not surprising - my mother grew up in Lower East Side Manhattan, Chinatown was practically next door and a lot of those kids went to her High School. Today those same projects are still around and there are still a lot of Children from Chinatown going to the same school as the kids from the Projects.

The point, is that just becuase you own a business in Chinatown, doesn't mean you're wealthy, or even middle class for that matter - Chinatown is (for the most part) a working class area.

http://www.cpaboston.org/neighborhoodorganizing/liberty_place/actout.html

In Boston the Per Capita Income of Chinatown is $12,500.00

This Article says it's even lower:

http://www.asiancdc.org/demographics.html

With 28% of Chinatown Residents living Poverty, compared to only 18% of the rest of the city.

This is just an interesting General Article:

http://www.arthurhu.com/index/apoverty.htm

More Info:

http://www.arthurhu.com/index/asianam.htm

Most Asians don't live in Chinatowns - and when they do, their poverty rates are often similar to the ones for Blacks.

E.g. It's not even a good model to use in the first place in terms of a method to generate wealth.

Many of the Asians who are wealthy/affluent, are doing so by attending the best schools, developing great careers, managing thier money successfully and in some cases by pooling their money to start businesses.

The interdependent Chinatown Model is not the source of the wealth of Asian-Americans and pretending it is while ignoring all of the Asians who expend a lot of energy to get into the best schools and persue fields of study that are the most ludcrative.

I had quite a few classmates and (relatives for that matter) who were given a VERY short list of Majors they were allowed to persue.

Also, let's not forget all the Asians who own several businesses, be it Gas Stations, Motels or Restaurants in White Areas - if one maps where the most affluent asians live (In the Suburbs - not Urban areas/enclaves) the lesson is clear.

4. I pointed out that regardless of where one derives their income, you still have to invest, save and manage that money to develop wealth. An income of X from your own business doesn't intrinsically make you wealthier than a wage earner who also makes $X/year.

5. I pointed out that true collective economics involves people pooling their money for a collective goal.

6. Asians often have significantly larger family structures to depend on - a lot of collectivism is occuring at the family level. I can speak on this - as the Asians outnumber the Blacks in my extended family by a nearly 2:1 Ratio.

7. Asians who may live in the Suburbs but spend money with other Asian Businesses are purchasing goods and services they can't get anywhere else. Which makes it a different situation from a Black Person purchasing something from a White Owned Business that a Black Owned Business also provides, due to price or convenience.

8. Language/Cultural Barrier - Something that Blacks by and large don't have to worry about when looking for goods and services.

In other words - we're talking about two entirely different situations and you can't superimpose one on the other, particularly when you ignore all the facets of one of them.

Just "Spending Black" is not a viable means of creating wealth for us a group unless there is significant interdependence and in the end, the groups we keep touting as models of interpendence, aren't neccessarily building their wealth that way either.

Even someone who starts a Bank or Insurance company for his fellow Chinese Immigrants - is simply engaging in Smart Business, going into a Market that he/she can excel in.

Economics/Finance - is simple math, so let's look at the "real" situation and institute real solutions that fit the context in which we live.

I understand that you see something else when you look at your hometown - but you have to dig deeper, look at the differences amongst Black People and really analyze the situation, because it's simply not what it seems.

I won't even get into the fact that all of these social pundits touting "spending Black" as the economic savior - are primarily not businesspeople AND don't even touch on a single full-fledged wealth building strategy.

Earl Graves is an exception though, the Publisher of Black Enterprise - while I do criticize his near monthly editorials that tell people to spend Black, I do laud the fact that he does provide (In his Magazine) genuine wealth building tactics, ways to get more customers in general, building one's career in a mostly white workplace, etc.

So in the end - if you want to tout spending Black as a sociopolitical "thing" that's fine - but as far as building wealth, let's recognize the limits and discuss what really needs to be done.

Black People spend too much anyway, shifting that spending towards Black Business Owners, will just result in richer Black Business Owners, with nothing really gained for the whole.




Peace,








M2




The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Quest4Knowledge
Member since Jun 20th 2002
2797 posts
Sun Jul-20-03 08:08 AM

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18. "At the risk of sounding ignorant.."
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

>Growing up, I used to go to Chinatown in NYC on an almost
>monthly basis, so I'm well aware of the phenomenon,
>particularly since (IMO) the Chinatowns of other cities,
>pale in comparison to the one in NYC (With the exception of
>San Fran). In fact - nothing I said, disabuses the idea that
>a Chinatown exists and works.
>
>Hence the title: "Missing the Point Entirely"
>
>The problem with looking to Chinatown and trying to use it
>as an economic model that Blacks (or another group can use)
>to create wealth or elevate themselves economically, ignores
>several fundamental issues, which if analyzed clearly, show
>it simply won't work for other groups.
>
>#1. Chinatown is a unique situation, where every possible
>service one needs can be acquired within a few Blocks from
>your home, from a service provider/vendor who is the same
>race as you - these owners/employees of these businesses
>will also purchase their goods and services from your
>business as well. E.g. There is a level of
>economic-interdependence that simply doesn't exist in other
>communities.
>
>You can't take the Chinatown economic model and apply it to
>Blacks because we don't have that level of economic
>interdependence on each other, nor do we live in areas where
>we own all the land and all of the businesses. When you live
>in Chinatown and Spend Local - you're invariably helping
>yourself becuase those dollars will come back your way, when
>you spend Black it's often a one way transaction that
>doesn't come back to you.
>
>See the difference?
>
>In terms of group wealth building - money has to go back and
>forth.
>
>You can't apply that model to Blacks because the economic
>context is COMPLETELY different.
>
>#2. These neighborhoods aren't economically self-sufficient
>- that's the impression people have, but it's not true. Now
>I've never been to the Chinatown in Houston, but I know that
>in the one in NYC - there are a lot of Businesses selling
>trinkets, knock off Watches & Clothing and dozens of other
>items that are AIMED at Outsiders. Furthermore, aside from
>the Banks, Insurance Companies and Travel Agencies - you'll
>see outsiders shopping at practically all the businesses in
>the area.
>
>Recognizing that these are primarily retail companies - E.g.
>Businesses that are High Volume/Low Margin - even if
>Outsiders only account for 15% of revenue, losing that 15%
>could put some people out of businesses, (or severely hurt
>them) - which only ripple throughout the community because
>of the high level of interdependence.
>
>Even a business that doesn't generate its revenue from
>outsiders will be hurt because their customers will have
>less money to spend.
>
>That's simple economics - consumer spending driving the
>economy.
>
>#3. There was a post on this board a couple of weeks ago,
>about how not all Asians are as wealthy as the stereotype
>denotes, particularly in Urban Areas. This is not surprising
>- my mother grew up in Lower East Side Manhattan, Chinatown
>was practically next door and a lot of those kids went to
>her High School. Today those same projects are still around
>and there are still a lot of Children from Chinatown going
>to the same school as the kids from the Projects.
>
>The point, is that just becuase you own a business in
>Chinatown, doesn't mean you're wealthy, or even middle class
>for that matter - Chinatown is (for the most part) a working
>class area.
>
>http://www.cpaboston.org/neighborhoodorganizing/liberty_place/actout.html
>
>In Boston the Per Capita Income of Chinatown is $12,500.00
>
>This Article says it's even lower:
>
>http://www.asiancdc.org/demographics.html
>
>With 28% of Chinatown Residents living Poverty, compared to
>only 18% of the rest of the city.
>
>This is just an interesting General Article:
>
>http://www.arthurhu.com/index/apoverty.htm
>
>More Info:
>
>http://www.arthurhu.com/index/asianam.htm
>
>Most Asians don't live in Chinatowns - and when they do,
>their poverty rates are often similar to the ones for
>Blacks.
>
>E.g. It's not even a good model to use in the first place in
>terms of a method to generate wealth.
>
>Many of the Asians who are wealthy/affluent, are doing so by
>attending the best schools, developing great careers,
>managing thier money successfully and in some cases by
>pooling their money to start businesses.
>
>The interdependent Chinatown Model is not the source of the
>wealth of Asian-Americans and pretending it is while
>ignoring all of the Asians who expend a lot of energy to get
>into the best schools and persue fields of study that are
>the most ludcrative.
>
>I had quite a few classmates and (relatives for that matter)
>who were given a VERY short list of Majors they were allowed
>to persue.
>
>Also, let's not forget all the Asians who own several
>businesses, be it Gas Stations, Motels or Restaurants in
>White Areas - if one maps where the most affluent asians
>live (In the Suburbs - not Urban areas/enclaves) the lesson
>is clear.
>
>4. I pointed out that regardless of where one derives their
>income, you still have to invest, save and manage that money
>to develop wealth. An income of X from your own business
>doesn't intrinsically make you wealthier than a wage earner
>who also makes $X/year.
>
>5. I pointed out that true collective economics involves
>people pooling their money for a collective goal.
>
>6. Asians often have significantly larger family structures
>to depend on - a lot of collectivism is occuring at the
>family level. I can speak on this - as the Asians outnumber
>the Blacks in my extended family by a nearly 2:1 Ratio.
>
>7. Asians who may live in the Suburbs but spend money with
>other Asian Businesses are purchasing goods and services
>they can't get anywhere else. Which makes it a different
>situation from a Black Person purchasing something from a
>White Owned Business that a Black Owned Business also
>provides, due to price or convenience.
>
>8. Language/Cultural Barrier - Something that Blacks by and
>large don't have to worry about when looking for goods and
>services.
>
>In other words - we're talking about two entirely different
>situations and you can't superimpose one on the other,
>particularly when you ignore all the facets of one of them.
>
>Just "Spending Black" is not a viable means of creating
>wealth for us a group unless there is significant
>interdependence and in the end, the groups we keep touting
>as models of interpendence, aren't neccessarily building
>their wealth that way either.
>
>Even someone who starts a Bank or Insurance company for his
>fellow Chinese Immigrants - is simply engaging in Smart
>Business, going into a Market that he/she can excel in.
>
>Economics/Finance - is simple math, so let's look at the
>"real" situation and institute real solutions that fit the
>context in which we live.
>
>I understand that you see something else when you look at
>your hometown - but you have to dig deeper, look at the
>differences amongst Black People and really analyze the
>situation, because it's simply not what it seems.
>
>I won't even get into the fact that all of these social
>pundits touting "spending Black" as the economic savior -
>are primarily not businesspeople AND don't even touch on a
>single full-fledged wealth building strategy.
>
>Earl Graves is an exception though, the Publisher of Black
>Enterprise - while I do criticize his near monthly
>editorials that tell people to spend Black, I do laud the
>fact that he does provide (In his Magazine) genuine wealth
>building tactics, ways to get more customers in general,
>building one's career in a mostly white workplace, etc.
>
>So in the end - if you want to tout spending Black as a
>sociopolitical "thing" that's fine - but as far as building
>wealth, let's recognize the limits and discuss what really
>needs to be done.
>
>Black People spend too much anyway, shifting that spending
>towards Black Business Owners, will just result in richer
>Black Business Owners, with nothing really gained for the
>whole.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't see how this response (particularly about the differing factors such as language that make the Chinatown situation different than the African American experience) works as a rebuttal against the first example given - the Black areas of early 20th century
Tulsa. Aside from the part where you point out that Asian immigrants may buy from businesses ran by other Asians because they may not be able to get the product/service anywhere else (which can apply to the Tulsa thing because they were under segregation) I don't see how any of what you wrote cancels out this particular case from the early 1900s.

For one, unlike Chinatown, the place was not all that poor and lower in class. I'm not 100% certain (should have taken notes when I first learned of it on NPR) but I think they were pretty well off before the business areas were burned to the ground.
They didn't have language barriers but they had social ones that enabled them to improve the shape of their neighborhoods without outsiders.

The fact is that there are towns like this one across the country like in the South and West that could probably do the same things. Because 1. they're majority Black and wouldn't need to depend on other people once they have most of the Black people in their town buying and 2. because the people may only have one or two choices total in a more rural area if the business is the only one providing a service for miles.

I used to live in a small, majority Black town in SC. I think most of the businesses were owned by white people (actually the whole town was practically ran by white people). You said collective wealth can't be generated without interdependance. But in a town like this that's miles away from a major city (the two closest were like 15 and 23 miles away I think) if all the businesses were owned by Black people and served the people it could create that interdependance because outsiders are not likely to waste their time in such a tiny far off place thats majority Black (and without them there's no risk of that 10 or 15% going away like you said) and because the people probably wouldn't have anywhere else convenient to go... like the Asian immigrants who buy services from other Asian businesses they can't get elsewhere.

I think the Tulsa story could be emulated and practiced for already isolated Black neighborhoods and towns. Especially in the South and the West too.




------
R.I.P Vertia Marie Jenkins



---
In memory of my sig..

  

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M2
Charter member
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Sun Jul-20-03 02:16 PM

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22. "It wasn't meant as a Rebuttal"
In response to Reply # 18


          


It was meant as a statement on how the economic dynamics of the present are so different from those of the past, and those of other ethnic groups that are used as examples, that we can't superimpose them over the economic dynamics of Blacks in American and expect them to work.

I don't deny that Tulsa or Chinatown exists - I merely point out that the former existed in far different economic conditions than we have today and the latter is a totally different situation that isn't the source of that ethnic groups's wealth in the first place.

The Small Towns in the West and the South are interesting - but there are problems with that idea as well:

1. Where is the capital to start these businesses going to come from?

2. What about the people who can't start businesses? - After all Everyone can't be a business owner

3. 80% of all Business Fail and a business failure often creates so much economic hardship for the owner that they regret starting the business - what happens to those people?

4. In an area that isn't that well off to begin with, how much economic strength would really be generated by these people starting businesses, wouldn't it just create "Black Chinatowns" and is that any degree of progress?

It seems to me that educational programs that helped people seek out and acquire better opportunities in terms of employment would be more effective.

At the end of the day, the advantage in owning a business over a job in building wealth is that in SOME cases, you can make more with your own business, and the business can generated revenue for you even if you're not involved in it's day to day operations and that it can be sold for a large sum of money.

Thing is - that's not always the case with all businesses and plenty of people build weath with jobs.

The focus should be on general wealth building strategies that are almost always effective and that the majority of people can use.

If Blacks decided to spend 15% less (as a group) per year and decided to save that 15% instead - that would create 94.65 Billion dollars in Black Wealth Per year - and that's without any sort of capital gains or interest.

IF - Blacks invested that 15% in a manner that would generate even just 4% worth of appreciation per year - over the course of 10 years, that money would grow to 1.3 Trillion Dollars in collective Wealth for Blacks.

Even if we all try to spend 5% less and save/invest that 5% it would be over 400 Billion Dollars.

That's a true wealth building strategies that a lot of people can use.




Peace,








M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Cocobrotha2
Charter member
10849 posts
Sat Jul-19-03 03:30 PM

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11. "RE: So M2"
In response to Reply # 2


          

Chinatown is a product of immigration. That's where non English speaking chinese people are absorbed into America. It offers the greatest means of support for immigrants who do not speak the language and are unfamiliar with the culture. They pool their money because that's the only choice. As they (their kids) learn the language and culture, they invariably move to the suburbs and strike out on their own. The longer the family has been in America, the less likely they're in Chinatown.

So obviously language is a big determinant in whether an ethnic enclave develops. Most Nigerians were brought up under the British system so even though they hang out together when they get here, they're not nearly as concentrated as alot of Asian immigrants because they don't need quite as much support.

Going back the Chinatown example, another determinant is class. Chinatown isn't full of software engineers, CPAs, and doctors. It's full of cooks, laborers and gusy selling Chanel socks. These people often don't have the means to support themselves so again, they congregate.

The one difference between Chinese immigrants and African Americans is that the chinese immigrants focus on shops and restauratants (btw, never ask about their financing), while 75% the business plans (if I see a business plan) from black people I know are record labels or clubs (you don't wanna know who's financing these either).

<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->

  

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M2
Charter member
10072 posts
Sat Jul-19-03 04:26 PM

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12. "Excellent Points"
In response to Reply # 11


          

If I may add one more...............

..........Language plays a part in some groups only purchasing certain services from memebers of their own, particularly in the Medical Field. I have relatives who hunted down doctors of the same exact ethnicity as they are, for the simple reason that they're afraid a language barrier (or racism) will hurt their care.



Peace,







M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Chris40
Charter member
500 posts
Sun Jul-20-03 07:57 AM

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17. "RE: So M2"
In response to Reply # 2


          

"In my hometown, Houston, Chinese, Vietnamese, and some Koreans, pretty much bought all the retail space on Bellaire (South West Houston). There are actually a few economic/ethnic enclaves in Houston, but I'll just speak on the one i've been to the most."

I'm not from Houston, but do black people in Houston have something like this above? Also, I read a article a couple of years ago that a black church in Houston own a shopping center wit a McDonalds.


  

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k_orr
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80197 posts
Sun Jul-20-03 10:24 AM

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20. "not nearly on the same level"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

There is a substantial black professional/middle class in Houston. The national stats are 2/3 of black folks are in the middle to upper class economically. And I'd argue that you could find that same stat in Houston.

And if you go to the hood there are a good # of black owned businesses. But as M2 would point out, not that he has, the type of businesses that we typically own (barbershops, salons, restaurants, churches (lol)), can enrich certain individuals and families, but not entire communities.

But where are the Black McDonald's (lol - I know the history of Mc'D's)
Where are the black Fords?
The black Yahoo's?
The black Enron's...I mean Exxon's?

I think if we're talking about building a major economic infrastructure within our own communities, we need to look @ industries that have sprung up since the voting rights act. IE things like petrochemicals, rail roads, automobile manufacturing, have high barriers to entry for all.

But companies that make intellectual products, software for instance..might be our next move.

one
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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Chris40
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500 posts
Sun Jul-20-03 07:53 AM

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16. "RE: The Real Issue"
In response to Reply # 1


          

I used the wrong title to this thread. I meant to name it "Black people spent 631 billion last year." The reason why I posted the article was fo years, I been hearing that black people spend ova 600 billion dollars on stuff. But, black owned businesses get less than 10 percent. This black spending power is making every other group or rich, except black people. Also, I agree wit what Claud Anderson, Jawanza Kunjufu, James Clingman, and Ridley Muhummad said in the article. Black people need to spend some of they income wit black owned businesses. I do spend some of my money wit black owned businesses in my town. Also, when I go outta town, I look for black owned businesses.

  

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M2
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10072 posts
Sun Jul-20-03 02:22 PM

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23. "Which only enriches certain individuals"
In response to Reply # 16


          


Not Blacks as a whole.

I would suspect that a single digit % of Blacks owned viable businesses - spending with them doesn't help you, your family or the other 90% of us.

Furthermore, in the current economic context of the US 90% of the money we spend goes to a large corporation be it our mortgages, car notes, groceries, utilities, etc.

The fact that 90% of our money goes to Whites, speaks more to the fact that 90% of our money goes to large corporations, whose stock holders are white.

When you consider also that 90% of the money that WHITE PEOPLE spend goes to a large corporation, BUT that Whites Leverage their income better to generate wealth, and are more "tuned in" in terms of using those corporations to generate wealth - the answer is clear:

Blacks need to start saving and investing more - and it's rather irresponsible for these power economic folks to never touch on this.


Peace,







M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Chris40
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Mon Jul-21-03 04:13 AM

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28. "RE: Which only enriches certain individuals"
In response to Reply # 23


          

"Which only enriches certain individuals, Not Blacks as a whole.
I would suspect that a single digit % of Blacks owned viable businesses - spending with them doesn't help you, your family or the other 90% of us."

I do agree by black people supporting black owned businesses, it should look out for blacks as a whole. And most black owned businesses do dat!!!! Where I live, I buy gas, groceries, lunch from a black fam owned gas/convience store. I know when I and otha black people spend money wit this "sto," it keeps those black people at the store working. Also, I see this store owner hire other black owned businesses to cut the grass, clean the store, etc. Also, this owner let black people come own his property to sell things that the store don't sell.


The fact that 90% of our money goes to Whites, speaks more to the fact that 90% of our money goes to large corporations, whose stock holders are white.

"Blacks need to start saving and investing more - and it's rather irresponsible for these power economic folks to never touch on this."

True dat!!! I've read books and columns by Dr Claud Anderson, James Clingman and them in the article. And they mentioned that black people should save and invest more.




  

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rhulah
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Mon Jul-21-03 04:25 AM

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30. "RE: The Real Issue"
In response to Reply # 1


          


The Real Issue is that you're an Uncle Tom and you have no idea what you're talking about.

  

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M2
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Mon Jul-21-03 12:49 PM

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31. "Prove me Wrong"
In response to Reply # 30


          


Or Shut your Mouth.


Economics/Finance is just simple math - has nothing to do with Race.

SO break it down on a Financial/Economic Basis - prove that the FACTS or mathematical conclusions I reached are wrong.



Otherwise shut the fuck up.


You sound like those cats who complain about the Koreans "taking over" instead of trying to start a business of your own.



-M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Nettrice
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61747 posts
Sat Jul-19-03 04:40 PM

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13. "In my center"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I've started talking more about economics and telecom to the predominantly Black and Latino students that attend my classes. For those who don't know I run a multimedia center in Roxbury, MA, a predominantly Black community:

"In a shopping mall in Roxbury, MA, among various businesses selling sporting goods, auto supplies and discount housewares, there is a new community technology center offering multimedia training and access to high-end computers, digital equipment and broadband Internet access. People of all ages come from all over the Boston area to take classes in digital imaging, digital video and audio, Web design and animation. This center aims to bring new technology to the under-served populations of Roxbury and surrounding neighborhoods. Low- to middle-income people are now learning about convergence -- the intersection of television broadcasting, computers and the Internet." from http://www.digitaldividenetwork.org/content/stories/index.cfm?key=176

As a director and leader in my field, I've learned a lot since I wrote the above article. I've been caught between a rock and a hard place: between helping our members become more digitally literate and educating the politicians and community leaders about changes in D.C., esp. as it relates to commerce and telecom policy:

from http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0703/071703td1.htm

"The Commerce Department on Thursday proposed legislation that would reorganize the department's technology and telecommunications policy functions.

The proposal would consolidate the Technology Administration, National Telecommunications and Information Administration, National Institute of Standards and Technology and the e-commerce policy functions of the International Trade Administration. The plan requests slightly more than $8
million for the new agency."

Where does Black wealth figure in as far as this convergence?

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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obsidianchrysalis
Member since Jan 29th 2003
8162 posts
Sun Jul-20-03 08:41 AM

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19. "the trend of convergence."
In response to Reply # 13
Sun Jul-20-03 08:41 AM

  

          

convergence changes the equation somewhat. the model (investing capital in endeavors that will increase the value of the amount invested) is till the same, it's just that the means of distribution will change. in order to maximize the profit made from the transactions that will be made on-line (via internet or tv) the point of business (the company that handles the transactions will be even more important that the company that produces the product because with out the means to reach the market the product loses value) i guess it's a similar model to the record or movie industry in that the means of reaching the market are fixed and the ability to reach a given market is valued, not so much the product. (which is a topic for a different forum)

or put another way, revenue will be generated by the number of times that a product can be processed (bought and sold) more so than the product's value appreciating over time. but by and large people will still use traditional means to buy products. (otherwise the whole internet frenzy wouldn't have stopped. everyone would have been buying products that they would sell two hours later.)

i hope this makes sense

obsidianchrysalis

<--- Me when my head hits the pillow

  

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Nettrice
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Sun Jul-20-03 01:42 PM

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21. "RE: the trend of convergence."
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

>convergence changes the equation somewhat.

And the "digital divide" creates a challenge I am not sure many of us can overcome because the ante is continuously being upped. What the Internet, open spectrum technologies (wi-fi, broadband, etc.) offer is a way to produce and distribute digital content in ways that are affordable but you have to be digitally literate, able to know what to do with the access to the hardware, applications, connectivity, etc.

>but by and large people will still use traditional means to
>buy products. (otherwise the whole internet frenzy wouldn't
>have stopped. everyone would have been buying products that
>they would sell two hours later.)
>
>i hope this makes sense

Makes sense to me.

I am so frustrated that people have not taken advantage of the "commons" made possible by convergence, emerging technologies, etc. because the opportunity is nearly gone.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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bukaruk
Member since Jun 19th 2002
5079 posts
Tue Jul-22-03 02:50 AM

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32. "can u elaborate"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

>the "commons" made possible by convergence, emerging technologies, etc.

what are u saying there ^^?



also, as i am not in close proximity to roxbury, MA at the moment, do u have any links/books i could check on gettin started in digital multimedia (training)?
thx
(im not tryna take money out your pocket, tho- ha)



* *
-We all dropped out of school, man. Thatís why.

-"Iím the biggest one; Iím goní to get shot. Iím bigger. They can see me first."

-I let Nashawn fight all of them. Me, I will fight anyone of them in their crew. I will fight their security g

  

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Nettrice
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Tue Jul-22-03 03:02 AM

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33. "RE: can u elaborate"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

>>the "commons" made possible by convergence, emerging technologies, etc.
>
>what are u saying there ^^?

Well, older telecom/technology systems restrict our ability to distribute our own products, esp. digital content. Emerging technologies offer the promise of being able to write/create, publish and distribute over the spectrum. It's all just 0s and 1s. For example, okayplayer.com thrived in the commons that is the Web/Internet because it (online community) creates the content, publishes and distributes via this global network. This is a commons. Now, imagine if other communities, including geographic, ethnic, etc. could do the same? Communities would be able to generate wealth that is broader in depth and scope.

>also, as i am not in close proximity to roxbury, MA at the
>moment, do u have any links/books i could check on gettin
>started in digital multimedia (training)?

You can visit my site http://home.earthlink.net/~nettrice/html or even my center's site at http://www.bnntv.org/mmc for ideas. If I think of others I'll post them.

>thx
>(im not tryna take money out your pocket, tho- ha)

I am not worried about that at all!

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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bukaruk
Member since Jun 19th 2002
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Wed Jul-23-03 06:31 AM

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37. "Further"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

after going thru your (or similar) classes, what do the students go on to/get involved in?




* *
-We all dropped out of school, man. Thatís why.

-"Iím the biggest one; Iím goní to get shot. Iím bigger. They can see me first."

-I let Nashawn fight all of them. Me, I will fight anyone of them in their crew. I will fight their security g

  

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Nettrice
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Wed Jul-23-03 08:10 AM

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38. "RE: Further"
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

>after going thru your (or similar) classes, what do the
>students go on to/get involved in?

At BNN, they can produce for the channels (cablecast) or intern/entry-level jobs via the workforce development program, or the Web (streaming) soon to come.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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raool
Member since Jul 10th 2002
12355 posts
Sun Jul-20-03 02:50 PM

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24. "the main issue"
In response to Reply # 0


          

How many blacks have savings, 401(k)a,etc...

It's really not about how much you make but how much you keep at the end of the day. This concept should be definitely focused on.

  

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CantCBob
Member since Aug 13th 2002
3417 posts
Tue Jul-22-03 03:14 AM

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34. "ding ding ding"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

we have a winner.

"Eminem wants to go at Jay Z because everyone recognise Jay Z as the best in the game whether you faggots like him or not." The Source

"John Stockton, not just a great player, but one of the greatest stories of western civilization"--Bill Walton

Warning: This post will be immediately followed by one of my Okayplayer stalkers, either Dhlagren718 or LordVingtune

"and this has shit to do with your confrontational online persona and wack view on indefinite incarceration & lack of empathy." okayplayer rawsouthpaw

"John Stockton, not just a great player, but one of the greatest stories of western civilization"--Bi

  

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M2
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10072 posts
Sun Jul-20-03 03:27 PM

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25. "Defining Wealth Building"
In response to Reply # 0


          


I think we need to really define what building wealth is before we really discuss this further.

Your "wealth" (Or Lack thereof) is just a general term to describe your Net Worth, the idea behind your net worth is the amount of money you would have if you used all of your assets to pay off all of your debts.

To determine your Net Worth, you would take the sum total of your assets, subtract the sum total of your debts - the remaining amount is your Net Worth.

For example, let's say we have a family with no children, and their debts are as follows:

Mortgage: $220k
Car Note(s): $15k
School Loans: $8
Credit Cards: $5k

Total Debts: $248k

Let's say their assets as are as follows:

Home Equity: $80k
Investments: $75k
401k: $60k
IRA: $20k
Cash: $15k

Total Assets: $260k

Net Worth (Wealth): $12,000.00

A nice piece of change to be sure, but nothing you could retire off of or even support yourself with long term if you were to lose your job.

Let's say that the Husband brings in $70k and the Wife kicks in $50k for a total of $120k, making their take home (off the cuff calc) around $6,800.00

So let's say their monthly expenses boil down like this:

Mortgage: $2,000
Car Note(s) & Insurance: $900
Gas: $300
Food: $350
Utilities: $400
School Loans: $300
Credit Cards: $500

Total: $4,750.00

Which leaves our couple with $2,050.00 in Disposable Income.

Now let's say we have two couples in this situation - one decides to put a collective $300 towards their 401ks and IRAs and to just spend the rest.

The other couple decides to invest $1,000/month between stocks, cash savings, 401ks and IRAs and just frugally spend the other $1k/month on whatever.

Over the course of the next ten years:


Couple A: Improves their net worth - they contribute a total of $36,0000.00 to their investments and their home equity grows by about $60k

Couple B: Also improves their net worth, they contribute a toal of $120,000 to their investments and also grow their home equity by $60k.

In both cases, both couple's investments grow by 5% compounded annually over the 10 years.

Couple A's Investments Grow to a value of $300k

Couple B's Investments Grow to a value of $407k

In another 10-15 years, Couple B will be millionaires - not to mention the fact that in most cases, Couple B will probably have another $40-$50k laying around since their cheap in the first place and that couple A would never have built up any sort of investments in the first place.

In America, 2/3 of our households are Middle Class and most of them are like Couple A, only without the Investments, 401ks and IRAs - while white families with similar incomes are managing their money like Couple B.

When disaster hits - Couple B has tons of cash laying around, couple A just has the equity in their house and maybe a few grand in a 401k.

When discussing the spending power of America - we need to be talking about acting like Couple B - granted, most PEOPLE let alone Blacks make less than 120k/year - but even when scaling for income, the lesson is clear.

If Blacks could decrease their spending by 5-15%/per year - we would create BILLIONS in Black Wealth per year, as I pointed out in post #22.

No matter who you are, 90% of your money goes to a large corporation so trying to spend the other 10% with a Black Person may help those Black Owners, but it ignores the larger issue of how we need to start managing our money.

Just think, if even the 2/3 of us who are middle class were to reduce our spending by 5% over the next 12 months, we would create Billions in Black Wealth.

Not everyone can run a successful business, not everyone can find a Black Vendor for everything they need - but a lot of us can save 5% more than we do now and start to significantly reduce the wealth gap.

Then we then start using that money for additional investments, investing in each other's businesses, pooling money to start businesses (like the Asians, Jews and Indians do), etc - we can reduce it even more.

What the authors of these constant "Spend Black Articles" don't realize is that much of the wealth of other immigrant groups, doesn't come from the chinatowns or small business owners, it comes from their professional class, who invest their money, start large companies, invest in other's companies, buy property, pool money to start companies, etc.



Peace,









M2



The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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CantCBob
Member since Aug 13th 2002
3417 posts
Tue Jul-22-03 03:25 AM

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35. "great post M2"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

and I'd like to add that if someone were to follow the plan set up by couple B and add to it some estate planning so that they could better transfer their wealth to their children, Couple B's children would be starting from a financial point significantly greater than the average person. you were talking about spending 5% less as a people. now just imagine if that 5% was invested with the sole purpose of passing it on to future generations. but why stop at 5%? its all about wealth building and estate planning. what I think is fucked up about our country is that it seems like white people are the only ones who know about that kind of shit. black people don't engage heavily in wealth building and estate planning out of some genetic deficiency or some bullshit like that, they're excluded for the most part because they don't have access to the resources that teach them how to do it. take a walk down any street in most cities in this country that have a large black community and ask them what a 401K is or as them what an irrevocable family trust is, you'll get a lot of blank stares. that's sad. its not because they're stupid or have a consumer mindset, its because nobody has taken the time to bring this knowledge to the black communities. fuck black own businesses right now, that's not what's gonna bring about economic equality. what needs to be done is more financial planning services for minorities. now obviously it won't be the most lucrative industry due to the relatively small amounts of money involved with lower class families, but it would be a very beneficial social service that say a charitiable organization could engage in. its just sad that there's so many white kids growing up in america that don't know what the fuck a trust is either, but the difference is that they still have one that their parents set one up for them when they were born. what needs to happen is more blacks need to be educated about the benefits of wealth building and then you will see more participation and eventually economic equality.


"Eminem wants to go at Jay Z because everyone recognise Jay Z as the best in the game whether you faggots like him or not." The Source

"John Stockton, not just a great player, but one of the greatest stories of western civilization"--Bill Walton

Warning: This post will be immediately followed by one of my Okayplayer stalkers, either Dhlagren718 or LordVingtune

"and this has shit to do with your confrontational online persona and wack view on indefinite incarceration & lack of empathy." okayplayer rawsouthpaw

"John Stockton, not just a great player, but one of the greatest stories of western civilization"--Bi

  

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M2
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Tue Jul-22-03 01:04 PM

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36. "Seek and you shall find"
In response to Reply # 35


          



A lot of Whites come from families that don't know how to manage money, I have friends who fit this discription, and the numbers of Whites with trust funds is quite small.

Additionally - companies like Schwabb and Fidelity have made Billions catering to the lower end of the economic scale, mostly working with middle class (and some lower middle class) families who are looking to invest their money.

Magazines like Kiplinger, Money Magazine, Worth, Barons (A newspaper), CNBC (TV Station) - are pumping out tons of net worth building information on the regular.

Fool.com has a successful web site that caters to beginning investors.

Walk into your local book store and you can find dozens of books on financial planning and investing.

www.cnnfn.com - Has a feature on an almost weekly basis called "Millionaires in the Making", it shows average people saving and managing their money to become millionaires when they retire.

The information is out there - and it doesn't take anything other than a desire to find and benefit from it. Blacks need to realize that they can build wealth on their own, that they can build wealth in general and to stop putting so much emphasis on consumerism.

All it takes is a change in our thinking - and then we can seek out the information, there is a large industry aimed at teaching people how to manage their money - E.g. Millions of Whites who don't know how to manage thier money seek out the information on how to do it and act accordingly.

All we have to do is seek and we shall find.



Peace,







M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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acidtabs
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Sun Jul-20-03 09:09 PM

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26. "nice read"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Get Rich Or Die Trying - 3.75/5
The Listening - 4/5

George Bush, you're lookin like Zoolander, tryin to play tough for the camera - MCA

Do you know who you are?
Do you know who you are fucking with?
Do you know, the access, to weapons, money and power
that we have? We will fucking kill you!

I'm the ugliest version of passed down toxic capitalist
rapid emcee perversion -- I'm America!
Your bleeding-heart liberal drivel gets squashed
Wash em with sterilized rhyme patriot-guided weaponry bomb
from the makers of the devious hearts -- I'm America!
You bitchy little dogs don't even phase my basic policy
The bomb's smarter, my Ronald Reagan's crush Carter
With Bay of Pig tactics makin young men into martyrs - El-P

The bottom line: Anyone who would brazenly steal an election and insert themselves into OUR White House with zero mandate from The People is, frankly Ė sadly Ė capable of anything. - Michael Moore

Homer Jay Simpson quotes:

- He lied to us though song. I HATE when people do that.
- Can't talk...eating.

  

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M2
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10072 posts
Mon Jul-21-03 02:27 AM

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27. "80% of all Businesses fail in Five Years"
In response to Reply # 0


          


-Not all Business in a Black Community are run by Blacks, nor do all Blacks in a community derive their income from that community in terms of a job, so it will take more than spending Black to sustain a community.

Education which leads to better job opportunities, which leads to more income is the key.

Furthermore, like K_orr said, we need to build large scale companies, local mom and pops won't constitute a large scale "Black Economic" infrastructure.

Something to consider though - the Fortune 500 is by and large controlled by and owned by WASPS, not Jews or Asians - yet both are significant economic forces as ethnic groups.

The reason, is due to the collective economic strength of their professional class, financial management habits and the fact that some (not all or a majority) of them own what is considered a "Small or Medium Sized Business" by say a Financial Analyst or Business Publication.

See, when CNBC, the Wall St. Journal, or Fortune is talking about small Business, they mean companies raking in 1-3 Million per year that's the market that Amex is going after when you see those commercials for the Small Business Card. The small business we think of is what they would call a Mom & Pop.

The companies on the Black Enterprise 100s lists - are basically small companies/small businesses in the overall context of Corporate America - those are the kinds of business we need to think about building - where we're pulling in EVERYONE's money.

Look at the lists for Asset Management Firms: http://www.blackenterprise.com/BE100s.asp?Source=Assets03

Or the ones for Investment Banks & Private Equity firms - who do you think their customers are?

These companies are leading the way in terms of building a Black Owned large-scale corporate infrastructure and these "power-economics" cats never mention them. Sad since they're the leaders of the pack AND are ideal places for Black Professionals to work.

Furthermore - moving our spending from one place to another is not going to help us, but reducing our spending by 5-15% per year and saving/investing that money instead.......

.......will create anywhere from 400 Billion to 1.3 trillion in Black wealth over the next 10 years.

All by reducing our spending as a people by 5-15% percent - doesn't even take into account the fact that as a group, the incomes of Black people are rising faster than anyone elses.

Considering that 80% of all Businesses fail - that not all of us can even start a business, as you not only need loans to start the business, but cash to support yourself while the business gets going - BUT that the 2/3 of us who are Middle Class can definitely spend 5-15% less per month by being more frugal......

.......which is the better strategy?

Even if you do start a business of your own at one point - consider this: I've got a copy of Fortune on my Desk with a white dude on it with a big ass grin. He got laid off from his job, but had more than enough money to maintain his lifestyle for a year, while he took 25k out of his savings and started a business with 12 partners (who each also put in 25k) - now he's running a rapidly growing 3 Million Dollar Company.

Save, Invest, Plan and Wait - that's the key to wealth.




Peace,








M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Chris40
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Mon Jul-21-03 04:18 AM

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29. "I USED THE WRONG TITLE TO THIS TREAD!!!!"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I meant to name it "Black people spent 631 billion last year."

  

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