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Subject: "are egyptians black?" This topic is locked.
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EdgarAllanPo
Member since May 06th 2003
512 posts
Tue Aug-26-03 09:51 AM

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"are egyptians black?"


  

          

why does ancient art depict egyptians as being lightskinned?

~treat others' happiness as though it is essential to your own~

~treat others' happiness as though it is essential to your own~

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
RE: are egyptians black?
Aug 26th 2003
1
RE: are egyptians black?
Aug 26th 2003
2
RE: are egyptians black?
Aug 26th 2003
3
Yep,
Aug 27th 2003
4
I get sick of this arguement
Aug 27th 2003
5
RE: are egyptians black?
Aug 27th 2003
9
      RE: are egyptians black?
Aug 28th 2003
12
RE: are egyptians black?
Aug 27th 2003
8
      no. here are links to the information/discussion....
Aug 28th 2003
11
Arab/African racial mix....so of course...
Aug 27th 2003
6
there whatever you want them to be
Aug 27th 2003
7
RE: Stop the bullshit
Aug 27th 2003
10

EasyStar
Member since Feb 06th 2003
1287 posts
Tue Aug-26-03 10:05 AM

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1. "RE: are egyptians black?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>why does ancient art depict egyptians as being lightskinned?
>
ancient art doesnt depict egyptians as black. It modern history and movies that has tried to separate Eygpt from Africa. True some Pharoahs were Greek so of course there was pro'ly some racial intergration.

But the Heiros showed DARK people. They used copper to represent there skin. Eygpt is also close to Arabia so of course people will have similar feature as the arabs too.

"One good thing about music--when it hits--you feel no pain...so hit me with MUSIC...Harder...Brutalize me!!" ~ Bob Marley

  

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Sopdet
Charter member
741 posts
Tue Aug-26-03 10:45 AM

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2. "RE: are egyptians black?"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

''why does ancient art depict egyptians as being lightskinned?''

Egyptian artwork is larglety symbolic. I think this issue has been beat to death on Okayplayer,and I am quit sick of it. I am a native born Egyptian from Aswan who know resides in Cairo. Without a doubt the pre-dyanstic Upper Egyptians were black and are still larely black to this day.

Arabs did not enter Egypt untill 640AD,and I doubt any Arabs were present in Egypt during any time.

If you look at the artwork of the waset tombs you will see that the people are depicted as dark brown just like the people who live there today.


Black Egyptians in Upper Egypt stil exist to this day


Except for his curly black hair, with its hint of African negro
blood, he looked more Arabian than Egyptian; most of the
men in the village were shorter, more heavily built, and had strong
cheekbones, thick noses, and heavy jaws. Among their rugged faces,
Shahhat's stood out as singularly expressive."
The reader might conclude from such a description that Critchfield's
initial attraction to Shahhat was due to the fact that his features
were much less African than those of the majority of Upper Egyptians.
Ironically, that is the attitude of some inhabitants of northern
Egypt, who refuse to acknowledge Upper Egyptians as Arabs, and
consider darker skin to be a negative trait. Such prejudice is the
second challenge which faces Upper Egyptians, in addition to poverty:
racism.
Although I did take issue with the presumably inadvertent racial
implications of Critchfield's observations, Shahhat, an Egyptian is
an entertaining and vivid introduction to the richness and diversity
of rural Egyptian life.
Uzra Zeya is a program coordinator for the American Educational Trust
specializing in Islamic affairs.
Advise and Dissent and Shahhat, an Egyptian are available from the
http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2002/598/li1.htm

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0390/9003045.htm

  

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Sopdet
Charter member
741 posts
Tue Aug-26-03 10:49 AM

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3. "RE: are egyptians black?"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

''Eygpt is also close to Arabia so of course people will have similar feature as the arabs too.''

Arabs are depicted in the Rekhmire tomb and they are quite different from the Egyptians. Arabs are shown with long flowing beards and straight hair. You could argue that Egyptians painted themselves darker than Nubians,but remeber even the Egyptians in the tomb of Rameses III depict Nubians in various different shades themselves. Egyptians are always shown darker than the Kefitu,Tamhou,Syrian,and Bedway



  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
10706 posts
Wed Aug-27-03 05:11 AM

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4. "Yep,"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

this cat is right.

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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Taharka
Member since Apr 18th 2003
7769 posts
Wed Aug-27-03 05:45 AM

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5. "I get sick of this arguement"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

that is why I ain't even going to answer the obvious.

However what are arabs if my theory is correct they are the product of AFRICANS AND PERSIANS.

HERE IS A PICTURE OF THE PRINCE/PRIME MINSTER OF KUWAIT
http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/national/0202/0225kuwait/images/PM.jpg

<--- The lovely Ms Hill when she wasn't thrown off.

LOOK WHOS RAPPIN NOW
http://www.myspace.com/quil215

  

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EdgarAllanPo
Member since May 06th 2003
512 posts
Wed Aug-27-03 01:12 PM

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9. "RE: are egyptians black?"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

>''why does ancient art depict egyptians as being
>lightskinned?''
>
>Egyptian artwork is larglety symbolic.

meaning? egyptians revere those who are lightskinned and have european features?

I think this issue
>has been beat to death on Okayplayer,and I am quit sick of
>it.

my apologies. but, i am interested in having my answer questioned by sources other than what i read in books.

I am a native born Egyptian from Aswan who know resides
>in Cairo. Without a doubt the pre-dyanstic Upper Egyptians
>were black and are still larely black to this day.

what about the denizens of lower egypt?

> Arabs did not enter Egypt untill 640AD,and I doubt any
>Arabs were present in Egypt during any time.

but persians dominated the area in 525-405 b.c.

>
> If you look at the artwork of the waset tombs
>you will see that the people are depicted as dark brown just
>like the people who live there today.

thank you.

>
> Black Egyptians in Upper Egypt stil exist to this day
>
>
>Except for his curly black hair, with its hint of African
>negro
>blood, he looked more Arabian than Egyptian; most
>of the
>men in the village were shorter, more heavily built, and had
>strong
>cheekbones, thick noses, and heavy jaws. Among their rugged
>faces,
>Shahhat's stood out as singularly expressive."
>The reader might conclude from such a description that
>Critchfield's
>initial attraction to Shahhat was due to the fact that his
>features
>were much less African than those of the majority of Upper
>Egyptians.
>Ironically, that is the attitude of some inhabitants of
>northern
>Egypt, who refuse to acknowledge Upper Egyptians as Arabs,
>and
>consider darker skin to be a negative trait. Such prejudice
>is the
>second challenge which faces Upper Egyptians, in addition to
>poverty:
>racism.
>Although I did take issue with the presumably inadvertent
>racial
>implications of Critchfield's observations, Shahhat, an
>Egyptian is
>an entertaining and vivid introduction to the richness and
>diversity
>of rural Egyptian life.
>Uzra Zeya is a program coordinator for the American
>Educational Trust
>specializing in Islamic affairs.
>Advise and Dissent and Shahhat, an Egyptian are available
>from the
>http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2002/598/li1.htm
>
>http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0390/9003045.htm


~treat others' happiness as though it is essential to your own~

~treat others' happiness as though it is essential to your own~

  

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Sopdet
Charter member
741 posts
Thu Aug-28-03 06:37 PM

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12. "RE: are egyptians black?"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

''my apologies. but, i am interested in having my answer questioned by sources other than what i read in books.''

Why not try an Anthropology journal?



Keita, S.O.Y. Studies and "Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological
Relationships
History of Africa
Crichton, Michael. "A Multiple Discriminate Analysis of Egyptian and
African Negro Crania," Papers of the Peabody Museum of Archeology and
Ethnology 57:45-67

The Racial Identity of Ancient Egyptian Populations Based on the
Analysis of Physical Remains
Robins and Schute


''what about the denizens of lower egypt?''

Lower Egypt was in Northern Egypt,which had little significance on the formation of Dyanstic Egypt. Upper Egypt is where most of the Pharoahs came from. The people in Lower Egypt were a mixture of Costal Northern African types,Syro-Palestinean types,and also tropical Africans. Lower Egypt has always been ethnically mixed,even at the beggining of the pre-dyanstic era.


''meaning? egyptians revere those who are lightskinned and have european features?''
No,meaing the Ancient Egyptians painted themselves in many colors from blue to red. You cannot go off one stature,and then except it to represent the entire populations. Define European features,because Europeans have pointy think noses. You can look at most of the Old Kingdom nose types and see,while many might have high bridged noses,none are pointy like Western,Northern,and Southern Europeans. Nasal shapes,might I remind you have nothing to do with your racial affiliatuion,but come from climate adaptation. Somalis,Ethiopians,and even Fulani have narroweer noses than Bantus,but does this mean that they are not ''black''? The nose shape develoiped differently in different types of clines. A moist cline will most likley evovle a wide nose;while dry humid desert like areas evolve a more narrow nose.

Here is also what I mean

In keeping with certain arististic conventions,the skin tone of Moses are a brownish red,indicative ,it has been argued of his activities which were conducted out-of doors. His wife's are yellow,indicative ideal seclusion in her home. To argue,therefore,as some have done about the ethnicity of the Ancient Egyptians relying soley on skin colors is bound to have disatours effects. Few would,for example,argue that Semerka was oriental on the basis of her skin color. Polychromy in Ancient Egyptian art is symbolic,not represential. In addition,one notes that the use of black paint,a convention in the Old Kingdom intended to mask the negative stone and seperate it from the principle image

page 58

Spelndors of Ancient Egyptian Museums
written and complied by Dr. Robert Bianchi


Splendors of Ancient Egypt: From the Egyptian Museum, Cairo </exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0788159011/qid=/sr=/ref=cm_lm_asin/102-2789412-0004168?v=glance>
by Robert S. Bianchi (Hardcover - December 1998)

''but persians dominated the area in 525-405 b.c''

What's your point;since Persians were foreginers.


''if some of the pharoahs were greek ''

This did not come untill around Ptolomeic dyansty.


''and many resemble arabs ''

Not really. Rameses II family possibly came from a Semetic background,but no pharoahs looked like Arabs.



''of the close proximity to the middle east''

Well,only one part if Egypt,Lower Egypt,is close to the Middle East. Cutlure is what matters,and Egypt had absolutley no cultural simialrities to the Middle East.


''isn't it legitimate to say that egypt is in fact different from the rest of africa?''

Ethiopia is right across the border from Yemen;yet I hear nobody trying to seperate Ethiopia from Africa. The fact remains Egypt had more in common with African than it did with the Middle East. Egypt is culturally part of Africa,reguardless if a few Egyptians in Lower Egypt were mixed with other ethnic groups.


Somebody please archive this post,because I don't feel like having this debate every week. This is rather tiresome.





  

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EdgarAllanPo
Member since May 06th 2003
512 posts
Wed Aug-27-03 12:58 PM

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8. "RE: are egyptians black?"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

if some of the pharoahs were greek and many resemble arabs because of the close proximity to the middle east, isn't it legitimate to say that egypt is in fact different from the rest of africa?

~treat others' happiness as though it is essential to your own~

~treat others' happiness as though it is essential to your own~

  

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poetx
Charter member
58755 posts
Thu Aug-28-03 07:02 AM

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11. "no. here are links to the information/discussion...."
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

that occurred following invasion and colonization of egypt -- long after the ascent of its culture, and when the bulk of its contributions to human civilization had been made.

like sopdet said, we've been all over this before. but people come and go here, that's how it is. please, though, check the following from the archives, and *then* let me know if you've still got questions...

http://www.okayplayer.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=1745&forum=DCForumID1

http://www.okayplayer.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=2237&forum=DCForumID1

those cover the questions that you have, and more. (and provide other sources of info).

also, the thing about the paintings -- as sopdet mentioned -- stylistically they sometimes used different pigments to depict themselves, ie, bright yellow for the women, red for the men. of course, they did not literally look like that, they'd have been orange within a generation.

you can also see what they 'were' by checking out Old Kingdom statuary. a lot of times, that stuff is not displayed. museums be having stuff from the ptolemaic period all upfront.

check for pictures of khufu/cheops (builder of great pyramid). and tell me what they look like.






peace & blessings,

x.

"I'm on the Zoloft to keep from killing y'all." - Iron Mike

peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just
focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and
not having much to show for it. (c) mad

  

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Abdurrashid
Member since Jun 20th 2002
15939 posts
Wed Aug-27-03 05:48 AM

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6. "Arab/African racial mix....so of course..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"The camel never sees its own hump but that of its brothers is always before its eyes"- N.African proverb

Alhamdullah For Everything!

  

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IsaIsaIsa
Charter member
posts
Wed Aug-27-03 08:22 AM

7. "there whatever you want them to be"
In response to Reply # 0


          

PLEASE KILL THIS POST!

  

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blueology3
Member since Jun 17th 2002
515 posts
Wed Aug-27-03 03:48 PM

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10. "RE: Stop the bullshit"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

That is like asking if Greeks are White, don't question the obvious.

"We are not stunted in spirit, we are not europeans, we are not Christians that we should invent fables a child would laugh at and harden our eyes to preach them daylight and deep night as truth. We are not Arabs, we are not Muslims to fabricate a desert

  

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