Killing people is wrong. That is the bottom line.

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

>Killing people is wrong. That is the bottom line.

Word, peace will never occur as long as their are two war criminals in the highest seats of power.

S.ean | Hey, I ain't got no money But honey I'm rich on personality Hey, check it all out Baby I know what it's all about Before the night is through you will see my point of view Even if I have to scream and shout

S.ean | Waiting For Something Witty To Pop In Here

The extremists run the show on both sides. It's not so much that they are both wrong - there are a lot of good people on both sides who want nothing but peace, but their voices are drowned out by the screams of extremism. I really can't see the light at the end of the tunnel. The outside world should act as a moderating force, but the key players only encourage the extremists with their one-sided support. America will not condemn Israel, the arab nations will not condemn Hamas - nothing is going to change. People all over the world are sufferering and dying because of this and yet we are all powerless.

>Killing people is wrong. That is the bottom line.

Occupation is wrong. Suicide bombing civilians is wrong. Resisting occupation is your right!

"The devil crept into
heaven/God overslept on
the seventh/the New World
Order was born on
September 11th" - Immortal
Technique

Absolutely, but don't you think that moderate Palestinans are doing a better job at resisting the occupation than Hamas and Islamic Jihad? Like I said I can't see ANY way out of this tragedy so I ain't one to judge but Palestinian extremists are holding moderates hostage, in much the same way as Sharon has brought destruction on Israel just to further his own war-mongering agenda by starting the second intifada to steal the election.

>Absolutely, but don't you think that moderate Palestinans
>are doing a better job at resisting the occupation than
>Hamas and Islamic Jihad? Like I said I can't see ANY way
>out of this tragedy so I ain't one to judge but Palestinian
>extremists are holding moderates hostage, in much the same
>way as Sharon has brought destruction on Israel just to
>further his own war-mongering agenda by starting the second
>intifada to steal the election.

When one inflicts pain on you, your friends, and your relatives, the natural instinctive reaction is to retaliate and inflict pain on the friends and relatives of the ones who inflict pain on you. I'm not saying that it's right, but that's the natural reaction, and that's why groups like Hamas are so popular, that and the social services they provide. That's why it's a cycle. Palestinians have tried numerous times to end the cycle. But Sharon won't let them, and until Israelis realize that Sharon is taking them for a ride and get rid of him in favor of someone more moderate and conciliatory towards the Palestinians, it seems were locked in this dance of death.

"The devil crept into
heaven/God overslept on
the seventh/the New World
Order was born on
September 11th" - Immortal
Technique

Lets not forget Barak's deal which Arafat turned down....

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

Barak's deal was a robbery. It was a land grab in which Palestinians would be subjected to living in poor, secluded and divided closets that had no access to resource and the traditional homelands of Palestine.

********************************************
"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

Its better than the deal on the table now, which is shut up or get blown up. Barak offered the Palestinians their own state, half of Jerusalem and a reduction of settlements. He put his job on the line for peace. But that wasnt enough for Arafat....

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

Palestinian are in no position to settle for anything less than historical Palestine.

********************************************
"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

The Palestinian "state" he offered would not have control of its own borders, its own airspace, or its own natural resources (water), and it would be divided into enclaves surrounded by areas of Israeli control - that is not a real state.

And Barak's job may have been on the line, but Arafat's life was on the line - if Arafat had agreed to Barak's offer, he probably would've been assassinated.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man." - The Dude

___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

right on brother.

********************************************
"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

Isnt that largely because they lack the resources to control those things. As far as I remember, they were to be offered those things if they could police the land. They proved unable to do that. This is not to say it was a great deal, or that the Israelis dont screw the palestinians over, but you are offering a one sided story. That deal was the best deal on the table ever and since. The six million Jews living in Israel arent going anywhere.The "we were there first" argument holds no truck with me, because the Israelis could equally say that.

And while we are talking about funding, well it isnt as though the Arab world doesnt pour millions of dollars into terrorist groups (supposedly fighting for palestinians) and yet doesnt actually give the Palestinians themselves any money to change. This is because the Arabs have alwasy regarded the Palestinians as the Pariahs of the Arab world. This explains why Palestinians in Israel have lower rates of infant mortality and higher rates of literacy than Palestinians elsewhere in the middle east.

Your final point proves mine really. The Palestinians wont ever be able to move into a position of negotiation as long as that mentality remains.

I maintain (because I know Israelis soldiers) that most of those people (religous fanatics excepted) arent interested in killing innocent people, and humiliating old ladies, and many arent interested in joining the army at all, but they have to.

Picture the scene, you are a jumpy 18 year old with a machine gun and someone starts throwing rocks at you....

Or you are a 12 year old and you are going to start throwing rocks at a jumpy 18 year old with a machine gun. Would you have done that stuff unless you had been told to?

I think killing people is wrong. I think that training people to kill each other is wrong. I think that planning the deaths of yourself and or members of your family for political gain is wrong. Ill say it again, the bottom line is that killing people is wrong, no matter how good your reason is.

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

>Isnt that largely because they lack the resources to control
>those things.

Dude, you should listen to yourself. So ignorant. Let me tell you something about water resources for instance. Israeli settlements in Palestinian land (The West Bank and Gaza Strip) are strategically built high on hilltops and on top of aquifers. This allows for the Israelis to control the water resources. That's why 200,000 Jewish settlers get to use 85% of the water resources of the West Bank, while 3 million Palestinians get the left over 15% of water resources. Let me repeat 200,000 people get 85% of water resources, while 3 million get 15%!!!!


As far as I remember, they were to be offered
>those things if they could police the land. They proved
>unable to do that. This is not to say it was a great deal,
>or that the Israelis dont screw the palestinians over, but
>you are offering a one sided story. That deal was the best
>deal on the table ever and since.

No, see "Saudi Peace Plan." And the plan Barak offered was not to offer anything else, and it was to be understood as the Final Status agreement and would have forced Arafat to agree to this plan to be the end of the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians.


The six million Jews
>living in Israel arent going anywhere.The "we were there
>first" argument holds no truck with me, because the Israelis
>could equally say that.

The Israelis were not there first. It was the Hebrews/Israelits, and the Cannanites, and the Philistines, the Judeans, and the Samaritans. Not all Jews are descended from the Hebrews/Israelits, only those from the Middle East (sephardim) while the majority of European (Ashkenazi) Jews are converts to Judaism. Meanwhile, all the groups above, intermingled and intermixed, along with other groups who ruled the area, such as the Romans, European crusaders, and were completely Arabized adopting the Arabic language, culture, and the majority became Muslim when the Arab-Islamic conquest of Palestine in the year c. 700 AD. While a handful of Jews remained in Palestine after the Romans exiled them thousands of years ago, Palestinian Arabs have had the longest continuous civilization in what is today Israel and Occupied Palestine. If Israel gives the right of return to Jews who have lived in exile for thousands of years, then is it then only fair to give the right of return to Arabs who have been exiled from their historical homeland after only 55 years?


>
>And while we are talking about funding, well it isnt as
>though the Arab world doesnt pour millions of dollars into
>terrorist groups (supposedly fighting for palestinians) and
>yet doesnt actually give the Palestinians themselves any
>money to change. This is because the Arabs have alwasy
>regarded the Palestinians as the Pariahs of the Arab world.
>This explains why Palestinians in Israel have lower rates of
>infant mortality and higher rates of literacy than
>Palestinians elsewhere in the middle east.

So because the Arab states fund terrorism is why Palestinians living within Israel Proper have a high infant mortality rate and low literacy rates? Wow, you are really, really ignorant. So the various Arab states are responsible for the well being of Palestinians (Israeli-Arabs) living within Israel Proper? My friend, Israel has sovereignty over Arab-Israeli areas, and since Israel is such a democracy, providing health care and educational and social services that equals those given to Israeli Jews is the democratic responsibility of Israel, and Israel alone.

>
>Your final point proves mine really. The Palestinians wont
>ever be able to move into a position of negotiation as long
>as that mentality remains.

No, it's not because of a mentality, it's because of power really. The Palestinians can't impose their will or have an equal say in negotiations, because it is Israel with full support of the US that has the power to accept, reject, or impose a solution. Of course, if the Palestinians feel they are being slighted (because Israel has never SERIOUSLY pursued a just solution (justice, what a concept!!!), then Israel will never have security.

>
>I maintain (because I know Israelis soldiers) that most of
>those people (religous fanatics excepted) arent interested
>in killing innocent people, and humiliating old ladies, and
>many arent interested in joining the army at all, but they
>have to.

Mandatory military service. Democracy at its finest!

>
>Picture the scene, you are a jumpy 18 year old with a
>machine gun and someone starts throwing rocks at you....
>
>Or you are a 12 year old and you are going to start throwing
>rocks at a jumpy 18 year old with a machine gun. Would you
>have done that stuff unless you had been told to?


The real scene: 18 yr. old soldiers, in full armor and helmets, with automatic rifles, against 12 year old stone throwers, 100 yards (the length of a football field) away, throwing stones. Even if a 12 year old can throw a stone 100 yards to reach a soldier, don't you think all that armor and a helmet will shield you pretty well? Throwing stones at soldiers is not a lethal, life-threatening act for a fully armed and armored soldier, yet these soldiers feel the need to fire live ammo at soldiers. If they don't mean to kill the 12 year olds, why are the Palestinians who are killed so accurately shot in their heads and chests? That's pretty good aim at lethal areas of the body, don't you think.

So Mr. Amateur, before yo start arguing, research the FACTS, please!

"The devil crept into
heaven/God overslept on
the seventh/the New World
Order was born on
September 11th" - Immortal
Technique

I cant have a discussion with someone that wont respect others opinions. Sorry. Personal abuse does not tie in with a political conversation.

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

>I cant have a discussion with someone that wont respect
>others opinions. Sorry. Personal abuse does not tie in with
>a political conversation.

My bad. I usually don't resort to name calling. I got a little emotional there, and a little carried away. I apologize, but I would like a response.

"The devil crept into
heaven/God overslept on
the seventh/the New World
Order was born on
September 11th" - Immortal
Technique

>Isnt that largely because they lack the resources to control
>those things. As far as I remember, they were to be offered
>those things if they could police the land. They proved
>unable to do that. This is not to say it was a great deal,
>or that the Israelis dont screw the palestinians over, but
>you are offering a one sided story. That deal was the best
>deal on the table ever and since.

No, it's because Israel feels that its security cannot be assured with a Palestinian state in control of its own borders and airspace. Which is a reasonable enough fear from their perspective I suppose, but it's rather ironic that Israel says this is necessary to ensure that it has secure and defendable borders, while at the same time it deprives the Palestinians of those very same things. So basically they are saying that they have a right to those things but the Palestinians do not. As for the water resources, that is just plain theft.

And no, Israel never offered the Palestinians those things if they could police the land. They were offered the Barak deal as a final binding proposal, meaning that if they accepted it, the Palestinians would concede those rights forever. You are the one offering a one-sided story; all I did was point out the actual facts of the matter. And regardless of it being the best deal ever offered by Israel, it was still total garbage, so that's not much of an argument.

>The six million Jews
>living in Israel arent going anywhere.The "we were there
>first" argument holds no truck with me, because the Israelis
>could equally say that.

Well that's nice, but I didn't use any such argument, I simply stated the facts of the deal. But since you brought it up... no, the Israelis could not "equally" say that, but that's a moot point in this debate. And actually there's only about 5 million Jews in Israel, just for accuracy's sake.

>And while we are talking about funding, well it isnt as
>though the Arab world doesnt pour millions of dollars into
>terrorist groups (supposedly fighting for palestinians) and
>yet doesnt actually give the Palestinians themselves any
>money to change. This is because the Arabs have alwasy
>regarded the Palestinians as the Pariahs of the Arab world.
>This explains why Palestinians in Israel have lower rates of
>infant mortality and higher rates of literacy than
>Palestinians elsewhere in the middle east.

Well, "we" weren't talking about funding, *you* are talking about funding. But yes, much of the Arab world treats the Palestinians like crap and largely uses them as pawns in their conflict with Israel... but that has nothing to do with whether or not Barak's offer was any good.

>Your final point proves mine really. The Palestinians wont
>ever be able to move into a position of negotiation as long
>as that mentality remains.

No, it proves that your portrayal of a noble Barak making a personal sacrifice for peace and a devious Arafat rejecting peace for his own nefarious purposes is a load of horseshit.

And while unfortunate, it doesn't necessarily mean that the Palestinians won't ever be able to negotiate as long as that mentality remains. A similar situation occurred in the Anglo-Irish War treaty negotiations - at the signing of the treaty, British representative Lord Birkenhead remarked to IRA commander Michael Collins, "I may have just signed my political death-warrant", to which Collins replied, "I may have signed my *actual* death-warrant" - and nine months later, Collins was assassinated by former comrades-in-arms who were opposed to the treaty.

But still, peace was achieved with the British (at least in the south) and out of that strife the Republic of Ireland gained its independence... so no, that mentality does not necessarily preclude the possibility of negotiation. It may take a Palestinian leader willing to take an assassin's bullet for the greater good, but it is not impossible. But either way, it would still take a better deal than the garbage Barak was offering to achieve peace.

>I maintain (because I know Israelis soldiers) that most of
>those people (religous fanatics excepted) arent interested
>in killing innocent people, and humiliating old ladies, and
>many arent interested in joining the army at all, but they
>have to.

Again, this has nothing to do with what I was talking about, but since you brought it up...

>Picture the scene, you are a jumpy 18 year old with a
>machine gun and someone starts throwing rocks at you....

I wouldn't shoot at someone with a maching gun just for throwing rocks at me...

>Or you are a 12 year old and you are going to start throwing
>rocks at a jumpy 18 year old with a machine gun. Would you
>have done that stuff unless you had been told to?

If I was a 12 year old, and a jumpy 18 year old with a machine gun had killed my brother or my friend for throwing rocks, and I felt that I had no hope for peace or a future of any kind, I'd probably forget about throwing rocks and instead wait a few years until I was big enough to get a machine gun myself, and then kill the next jumpy 18 year old I came across machine-gunning 12 year old kids for throwing rocks.

>I think killing people is wrong. I think that training
>people to kill each other is wrong. I think that planning
>the deaths of yourself and or members of your family for
>political gain is wrong. Ill say it again, the bottom line
>is that killing people is wrong, no matter how good your
>reason is.

Well that's a nice sentiment, but you also seem to think that Israelis killing Palestinians is somehow less wrong than Palestinians killing Israelis, so your pacifist sentiments ring hollow.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man." - The Dude

___________________

Mar-A-Lago delenda est

>Its better than the deal on the table now, which is shut up
>or get blown up. Barak offered the Palestinians their own
>state, half of Jerusalem and a reduction of settlements. He
>put his job on the line for peace. But that wasnt enough for
>Arafat....


Not true, the Saudi peace deal is on the table. If Israel would withdraw completely to the pre-June 1967 borders, the entire Arab World, as proved at the Arab League summit of March 2002, is prepared to recognize Israel and normalize relations with it. This plan was unanimously accepted by all Arab nations including Palestine and Iraq which was still ruled by Saddam Hussein at the time.

With the entire Arab world's recognition of, and normalization of relations with Israel, and the the end of the Israeli military and colonial presence there, would have taken the steam out of "terrorist" activity. However, Sharon responded to the unanimous vote for the Saudi plan with the vicious, insane, bloodthirsty, and brutal invasion which saw the destruction of the Jenin refugee camps, Nablus, Ramallah, Bethlehem, and numerous Palestinian buildings and institutions which have nothing to do at all with terrorism. The Palestinian cultural ministry, education ministry, and many other buildings were destroyed. School test and exam results were destroyed, computers, copy machines were destroyed, offices were ransacked, children's paintings were destroyed, and there were even cases where Israeli soldiers defacated on office floors and smeared their feces on office equipment. (All of the above is documented and shown on John Pilger's 2001 or 2002 documentary, "Palestine Is Still the Issue.") That is how Israel responded to the Saudi peace plan, and even after all this, the plan is still on the table.

"The devil crept into
heaven/God overslept on
the seventh/the New World
Order was born on
September 11th" - Immortal
Technique

Are we talking about the so called 'massacre' at Jenin here?

Besides, the Saudis have been funding terrorists for years. All the 9-11 terrorists were Saudis. If they offered ME a deal I would turn it down...

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

you know, you should go apply for a position with hamas. you've got their rhetoric down pretty well, i'm sure you could throw on a suit and tie and give a really nice justification for the continuous murder of innocent civilians.

dont get me wrong, i sympathize with a lot of the points you are making, but nothing you can ever say will convince me that the terrorism being perpetrated by extemist troops is justified. one minute you say that its wrong, the next you say that israel will never have security as long as they etc.etc....

just like everything this complicated, its deeper than you or i think or can possibly imagine.

if you believe what you're saying so much, why don't you go over there and blow yourself up so i don't have to hear the rhetoric that inspires such behavior.

>you know, you should go apply for a position with hamas.
>you've got their rhetoric down pretty well, i'm sure you
>could throw on a suit and tie and give a really nice
>justification for the continuous murder of innocent
>civilians.

First of all, I'm Christian, and Hamas is a Muslim organization, and I still don't believe in the continuous murder of civilians. It's not rhetoric, most of what I say is based on fact.


>
>dont get me wrong, i sympathize with a lot of the points you
>are making, but nothing you can ever say will convince me
>that the terrorism being perpetrated by extemist troops is
>justified. one minute you say that its wrong, the next you
>say that israel will never have security as long as they
>etc.etc....

And like it or not, that is the truth, that Israel will not have security if it continues to do what it is doing. I'm not saying its right, because it's wrong. Just because something is wrong doesn't mean you can ignore reality and say it won't happen. Israel's actions foster these suicide bombings, and make it easier for the average person to support them, as Pinko Panther eloquently points out in a post down below.


>
>just like everything this complicated, its deeper than you
>or i think or can possibly imagine.
>
>if you believe what you're saying so much, why don't you go
>over there and blow yourself up so i don't have to hear the
>rhetoric that inspires such behavior.

As a Christian, I'm against suicide! I'd rather educate through the truth.

"The devil crept into
heaven/God overslept on
the seventh/the New World
Order was born on
September 11th" - Immortal
Technique

>It's not rhetoric, MOST of what I say
>is based on fact.

so what is the rest based on???? half truths and rhetoric.


>And like it or not, that is the truth, that Israel will not
>have security if it continues to do what it is doing. I'm
>not saying its right, because it's wrong. Just because
>something is wrong doesn't mean you can ignore reality and
>say it won't happen. Israel's actions foster these suicide
>bombings, and make it easier for the average person to
>support them, as Pinko Panther eloquently points out in a
>post down below.

even IF everything stated above is true, people are responsibe for their own actions. and you cannot reasonably expect the world's sypmathies when you react by blowing up a cafe or bus. the problem is that the palestinians and their neighboring arab countries would like for israel to not exist at all, and they fund terrorist activities to try and accomplish that goal.

i agree with the people who say that the extremeists on both sides are holding the general population in a quagmire.


>As a Christian, I'm against suicide! I'd rather educate
>through the truth.

the part you should be against is the murder of innocent people, many of whom are the moderates that may even agree with some of the palestinian issues and causes. you being "anti-suicide" does not impress me, you've got an issue with the wrong part of the problem.

Apparently, weez, you're not getting it, so I'm just gonna stop it right here.

And the crux of the problem is not suicide bombing. It is just a convenient way for Israel and its supporters to deflect attention away from the main problem: the occupation of Palestine. The occupation existed looooonnnggg before suicide bombings. If the occupation ended, the climate that fosters suicide bombings, and eventually suicide bombings themselves, would follow.

"The devil crept into
heaven/God overslept on
the seventh/the New World
Order was born on
September 11th" - Immortal
Technique

>Apparently, weez, you're not getting it, so I'm just gonna
>stop it right here.

i think we have a fundamentally different way of viewing the situation, so that is most likely the best idea.

>And the crux of the problem is not suicide bombing. It is
>just a convenient way for Israel and its supporters to
>deflect attention away from the main problem: the occupation
>of Palestine.

why give them such a convenient method of distraction then? the palestinians have long been considered the "white trash" of the arab world, and they are being played as pawns by those who would like to see the end of a jewish state. many of the displaced are "refugees" because of the wars launched against israel by its neighors. give me a break with the whole "occupation" thing. i mean, we're "occupying" land that almost none of our ancestors have any connection to.

Jews, Muslims, Israelies, Palestinians, Christians, all have a historical and religious connection to that incredibly small piece of land. We live in the same world, and the decisions to kill each other or not are everyone's own.

>why give them such a convenient method of distraction then?
>the palestinians have long been considered the "white trash"
>of the arab world, and they are being played as pawns by
>those who would like to see the end of a jewish state. many
>of the displaced are "refugees" because of the wars launched
>against israel by its neighors. give me a break with the
>whole "occupation" thing. i mean, we're "occupying" land
>that almost none of our ancestors have any connection to.

While I agree that the rest of the Arabs don't give a shit about Palestinians (Jordan's Black September mass killings in the 1970s, Sabra and Shatilla in Lebanon in the 1980s, expulsions from Kuwait in the 1990s, and now anti-Palestinian sentiment in post-Saddam Iraq because of Saddam's pro-Palestinian favoritism). However, many of the Palestinian refugees in 1948 were expelled by Zionist militias BEFORE Arabs invaded Israel. And Israel is responsible for the Palestinian refugees. It was ABSOLUTELY IMPERATIVE for Israel to carry out the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, either thru expulsion, genocide, or both to create a Jewish majority in what became Israel. You have the massacre at Deir Yassin in April 1948, (one month before a single Arab soldier stepped foot inside Israel). You also have the ethnic cleansing of Arabs from Haifa, Ramleh, Lydda, and other cities in the weeks before May 15, 1948, the day the Arabs "invaded."


>
>Jews, Muslims, Israelies, Palestinians, Christians, all have
>a historical and religious connection to that incredibly
>small piece of land. We live in the same world, and the
>decisions to kill each other or not are everyone's own.

"The devil crept into
heaven/God overslept on
the seventh/the New World
Order was born on
September 11th" - Immortal
Technique

>While I agree that the rest of the Arabs don't give a shit
>about Palestinians (Jordan's Black September mass killings
>in the 1970s, Sabra and Shatilla in Lebanon in the 1980s,
>expulsions from Kuwait in the 1990s, and now
>anti-Palestinian sentiment in post-Saddam Iraq because of
>Saddam's pro-Palestinian favoritism).

I think it's important to make a distinction between "other Arabs", and the other Arab governments. Most Arabs do "give a shit" about the Palestinians, while their governments are the ones that exploit them as a tool against Israel. Jordan is a particularly bad example since most of them ARE Palestinians.

Yes, you're right.
By your logic because Israel has by far killed mor Palestinians then Israel is more wrong. I agree, but not because of that.

I dont think so. I mean have you factored the evilness of each death into the argument. I would say spit roasting a live person is more evil than shooting them in the head. Besides, we are not the arbiters of who is more evil. Ill leave that to the boys upstairs.

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

The Palestinians have nothing to be sorry for and have no fault in this matter. This f*cked up logic that "Palestinian and Israelis are equally wrong" is the same logic that the Israeli government uses to apply a policy of collective punishment. I'll explain that more later but first...

This extreme and classical form of colonialism by the Israelis is a theft of land and occupation that has been imposed on the Palestinian people by means of expensive military hardware, helicopters, tanks and bombs. These things are funded at the rate of atleast 5 billion dollars a year from the US and whatever else amount of Israeli tax dollars goes into this genocide machine.

On the other side, Palestinians have been denied an army or a means of fighting back. Hence, local groups of crazies form their own militia. IE, if the US didn't have an army then I'm sure the Michigan Militia would jump right in. Furthermore, in the words of an Israeli Jew who lost his daughter in a suicide bomb blast "Yes I am angry, but I must ask myself how much I may have contributed to this. I think about the checkpoints, the five to seven hour that the Palestinians have to spend in traffic everyday just to get to their jobs. The water being stolen from them by Israeli settlements. Watching soldiers bully elderly ladies on a daily basis. This is the kind of humiliation they must face. I truly believe that the suicide bomber who murdered my daughter was just as much a victim as my daughter was."

To have equal blame in something, you need many equal conditions. You need equal wealth on both sides, equal military force, equal right to ignore UN resolutions(about 60 of them), equal access to all the land (think of how much land an Israeli can use and how much a Palestinian can use) and many more. This occupation has been imposed on the Palestinians and they have nothing to be sorry about.

Lastly, people like Arafat have been strategically been granted legitimate power by Israel to speak on behalf of Palestinians. No Palestinian has ever agreed to Arafat as a leader for Palestinians. This is why so many Palestinians just go off and do their action. It is precisely because Israel has robbed them of an opportunity to rule themselves. So back to this concept of collective punishment. Just because the Palestinian leadership, which Israel is responsible for, is corrupt and dirty, all of a sudden all Palestinians are at fault for what is going on. This is exactly what Israel's murderous army does. A suicide bombing occurs and Israel responds not with an attack on any militant target, but Israel responds by levelling the whole village that the bomber was from. So they punish a whole poor and starving committee for the actions of others. This is also how the South African apartheid military behaved. If a black man stood up to a white man, then the whole neighborhood that they black man came from would be terrorized.

Palestinians have a right to resist by any means necessary!

********************************************
"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

The Palestinians have the right to resist the occupation of their land, that is without a doubt. But when you say "by any means necessary", I really have to object in the strongest possible terms. Wiping out 3 generations of 2 families, women and children, Jews and Arabs, those involved in the occupation and those who had nothing to do with it - nothing can justify this, nothing at all.

Just as moderate Palestinians should not be held accountable for the actions of those among them who murder civilians, Israeli civilians should not be held accountable for the crimes of the Israeli state.

It's very easy to say that Israel is the one at greater fault, since it is the one who hold all the power and it's very creation is what started this whole tragedy. However, true as this may be, it doesn't get us anywhere. The only way forward without endless bloodshed is peace, and any peace must allow for the viable existence of both Israel and Palestine.

You miss the point then. Suicide bombimg, I said, was symptomatic of the humilation that is induced by occupation. To say otherwise would be to suggest that Palestinians are somehow predisposed to suicide bombing -which is the line of the Israeli right. End the Occupation, create one secular, democratic state and THEN the violence will stop. When I say the violence will stop I do not mean that it will consciously stop, but that by law of nature, the conditions of violence will deteriorate. Just think of the Israeli man who lost his daughter but still said that the suicide bomber was just as much a victim as his daughter. The point is, Israeli policy regarding this colonial occupation is the creator of suicide bombers. The blood of Israelis is on the Israeli govt's hands until this occupation ends.

Furthermore, it is harder to not put more blame on the general migrant Israeli population. If you move to Israel from anywhere in the world, and you take advantage of your Jewish status, then chances are that you support the occupation and that have officially achieved military target status. An occupation requires human beings to occupy a space, these occupiers have revoked their own status as civilians the moment they supported an occupation. This does not apply to all second generation "Israelis" because they were born on the land and really had no other choice. So when children die, then it is truly sad. But once again, that blood is on Isreali Zionist hands.

And regarding your last sentence... absitively, posolutely NO PEACE can ever be achieved without first achieving the presence of JUSTICE.

********************************************
"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

Killing people is wrong. Ghandi didnt need to blow himself up to change things.

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

bottom line

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

>bottom line

Not exactly. Historically there have been different forms of Zionism and there is a marked difference between pre and post WWII Zionism. Before it was more about a movement to allow Jews to be able to immigrate to the region, much like they would immigrate to any other country and live within the existing political system.

After WWII the conservative hawks in the Zionist movement saw the opportunity to get their agenda out, because no Western country would dare refuse a Jewish demand after the Holocaust. Especially the US, who was guilty of turning away Polish refugees fleeing Hitler (like my grandfather, thank god Canada granted him asylum). They effectively hi-jacked the Zionist movement, it was their idea to create a Jewish State and disposses the people living there.

When this started happening a lot of liberal Zionists, like Chomsky, left the movement because the aftermath of the Holocaust had forced it so far to the right.

Actually, while there were moderate zionists that opted for co-existence with Arabs, there were a marginalized voice even 120 years ago. I've read many transcripts of leading zionists from the early days of zionism and all the influencial voices called for an expulsion of Arabs from the region. The way things changed after WWII is that instead of being marginalized, radical left zionist jews were killed by the prevailing zionist status quo. Hence the ideology is inherently racist for it even silences those voices within it that try to modify it. Chomsky not only left zionist circles, he denounced Zionism. Same thing with Hannah Arednt.

********************************************
"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

Wanting a country for your people is racism? Surely that makes the Palestinians....

(dont get me wrong here, I am not ignoring how Palestinians are treated in Israel. And that is wrong.)

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

>Wanting a country for your people is racism? Surely that
>makes the Palestinians....

Twisted logic:
"Zionist Israel's occupation of Arab Palestine has forced the Arab world to waste billions of precious dollars on armaments making it impossible for these newly independent Arab nations to concentrate on strengthening the economies of their countries and elevate the living standard of their people."
-Malcolm X

משה גידון בן יעקב עיסר

Like Eli said, do some research. I suggest you read "Arabs and Israel for beginners". Its not an insult, this book will actually give you a fair overview of the facts started from before Jews even existed (Jews actually were of the same decent as Arabs before Judaism came to exist).

Wanting a homeland is one thing, wanting a homeland for your people at the expense of another people is racism. The prevailing and official Zionist line on the creation of Israel is based completely on the expulsion of Arabs from the lands of Palestine -which the British stole for them in the first place. Secondly, no nation state should be formed on religious affiliation. Just as nobody should be allowed to form a Muslim state or a Christian state, it makes no sense for a state to be formed as a Jewish State. A Jewish State who's laws discriminate, humiliate and make miserable the lives of non-Jews.

Palestinians are not seeking a homeland that requires the expulsion of another people in order for this goal to be fulfilled. They just want to go back to their traditional homes and villages that they had lost by force over 50 years ago. A notable Palestinian was asked "What are you going to do if you finally get back to your old and that your home has already been taken by a Jewish family? Are you going to kick them out?" The man smiled and responded "No, we will just have to build a second floor and live there"

********************************************
"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

Moderate Palestinians are not seeking a homeland that requires the expulsion of Jews, much as moderate Israeli's respect the aspirations of the Palestinian people. Palestinian extremists on the other hand want nothing more than the complete destruction of Israel, in much the same way as Israeli extremists desire the complete expulsion of the Palestinians.

It just seems so clear to me that regardless of how they got there, they are both stuck in the same place - they are both trapped in an endless cycle of violence, they are both held hostage by the call of extremism and they both have only one way out.

Unfortunately for the Palestinians, their extremists are called terrorists because they cannot afford tanks and fighter jets and helicopter gunships, and so America further perpetuates the endless cycle with it's one-sided support, both because of the terrorist connection and because of the iron grip of the conservative Jewish lobby on foreign policy.

Here we have a rational post. Nice one man.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. And I must add that moderate Israelis (like my family) do not want the Palestinians expelled and do what they can to alleviate the bad treatment of Palestinians.

When people say "Dont the Jews remember the holocaust?" in reference to the middle east, people dont realise that a lot of Jews in Israel had nothing to do with it. They were Ghettoised in Russia, or living in Northern Africa, as well as central Europe. People like my grandparents, have an pretty close understanding of racial persecution, since they fled it and had their families murdered. This is why they (and I) are against the persectution of palestinians. They are also against the extremism that is poisoning both sides of the country.

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

Ok, bro. I am a Jew, my dad is Israeli. I read my share about this. To my knowledge, the Palestinians want the Jews out of Israel, so they can have the land. Most middle eastern countries and palestinian organisations refuse to recognise Israel as a nation. They say those people have no right to be there and want to kick them out. To me that comes to the same thing. I refer yo to my initial post. Both sides are wrong.

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

>Ok, bro. I am a Jew, my dad is Israeli. I read my share
>about this. To my knowledge, the Palestinians want the Jews
>out of Israel, so they can have the land. Most middle
>eastern countries and palestinian organisations refuse to
>recognise Israel as a nation. They say those people have no
>right to be there and want to kick them out. To me that
>comes to the same thing. I refer yo to my initial post. Both
>sides are wrong.

NO! Both sides are not wrong! Every event in history consists of an action and a reaction. And by my extensive study on the subject(and it really doesn't take much to comprehend this) the Zionist movement that was responsible for settling the State of Israel with the help of the British HAD to displace 750,000 Palestinian Arabs in order to create a state that is "Jewish in character". The Palestinians did not cause the Jews any harm prior to losing their lands, homes and dignity and Israel has certainly never done anything to show either remorse for this occurence nor has Israel even given the slightest impression that the state of Israel owes any reparation to the Palestinians. Meanwhile the Palestinian people are among the world's largest refugee population to absolutely no fault of their own while Israel builds even more settlements in the occupied territories at an unprecedented rate. The issue here is sovereignty, and Israel violated the sovereignty of Palestinians, not vice versa.

If you want a truly passionate perspective on the topic then go read some of the works of the Jewish author Norman Finkelstein. This man is a professor at New York State University and offers a similar perspective to my own. Both of his parents were survivors of the Warsaw ghetto and Aushwitz(sp?). Finkelstein disguted at how the wealthy Zionist enterprised has exploited the suffering of poor Jews for profit, is a principled defender of Palestinian rights and sovereignty.

Yes, you are correct, there are extremists on both sides. Here is the difference, however. Zionism, in order to create a Jewish State, settled Israel by means of extremism and racism. Palestinian extremism is the direct product of Israeli occupation and settlement. This difference is key! If there was no occupation then there would be no Palestinian extremism.

Don't ask yourself whether extremism is moral or not because that will obscure the answers to this question we are discussing and you will not find any solutions. Rather, you should be asking "Why do people become extremist? Why do everyday people look to extremists for answers?" The answer to such questions is far more simple than the one you are grappling over. Firstly, when people are starved, poor and desperate then they are easily bribed and held hostage. Legitimacy in these groups only occur when desperate people have been exhausted of all other answers and have percievably, absolutely, no other options but desperately following extremists who offer them far more than anyone else. With this point established you must ask what made this population of refugees so poor? Could it be that a military occupation that helps in redirecting resources from Palestinian neighborhoods to Israeli settlements might have some cause of this desperation? Could the humilation of watching family members, children shot or starved to death might drives someone crazy enough to follow extremists that offer them a path?

Do you know what determinism is? It is the philosophical ideology that explains that one's environment, social conditions and history determine one's mentality and behaviour. Do you really think that leaders of Hamas would have any legitimacy among regular Palestinians if the normal life of a Palestinian was to have guaranteed food, clothing, shelter, and a right to work? Why would a Palestinian who has a decent life need to pay any mind to Hamas? They could no longer offer them anything if this was the case.

Then we must look at all the horrible Palestinian leaders that the Israeli government and Mossad had a deep hand in bringing to public attention. Arafat was a propped up puppet that Israel helped bring to power because they knew that whether or not Arafat failed or succeeded all blame could be placed on this corrupt man. Also Mossad has a long history of assassinating moderate leftist voices in Palestine. What happens when you murder the majority of moderates? What are left with? Your own gravediggers, that's what.

One more time and I can't stress this enough. If there was no occupation, there would be no suicide bombers or mass extremism. The ball, my friend, is easily in Israel's court.

********************************************
"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

the Zionist movement that was responsible
>for settling the State of Israel with the help of the
>British HAD to displace 750,000 Palestinian Arabs in order
>to create a state that is "Jewish in character".

How exactly did the British help Jews establish the State of Israel? In '48 when every Arab country declared war on Israel minutes after its independence was declared, it was the British that were busy confiscating arms shipments to the new country that didn't even have an army yet. British troops and officials did everything in their power, up until the minute the last one was out of the country, to spite the Jews living in Palestine/Israel.

The
>Palestinians did not cause the Jews any harm prior to losing
>their lands, homes and dignity

Talk to all the people who worked security on early kibbutzim that defended the farmers from Arab mobs.

Don't get me wrong. I agree that Israel has done it's fair share of messed up shit and I'm not trying to place all blame on the Palestinians.

Twisted logic:
"Zionist Israel's occupation of Arab Palestine has forced the Arab world to waste billions of precious dollars on armaments making it impossible for these newly independent Arab nations to concentrate on strengthening the economies of their countries and elevate the living standard of their people."
-Malcolm X

משה גידון בן יעקב עיסר

>How exactly did the British help Jews establish the State of
>Israel? In '48 when every Arab country declared war on
>Israel minutes after its independence was declared, it was
>the British that were busy confiscating arms shipments to
>the new country that didn't even have an army yet.

Not taking into account the non-Palestinian Arab nations' "invasion" of Israel minutes after it was declared independent, it is well documented that Zionist militias were the aggressors against the Palestinians prior to Israel's declaration of independence, and also before one single non-Palestinian Arab soldier stepped foot in British-mandate Palestine. Much of the land Israel ended up with after the 1948-49 war was captured from virtually defenseless Palestinians BEFORE the Arabs invaded. Cities and villages such as Deir Yassin, Al-Lydd, Ramleh, Jaffa, among others were invaded, captured, and for the most part had their Arab residents greatly reduced or completely eliminated, via death or expulsion.

"The devil crept into
heaven/God overslept on
the seventh/the New World
Order was born on
September 11th" - Immortal
Technique

Balfour Declaration? If you haven't then I don't think you should even really have any right to pass judgements on the establishment of the state of Israel. The only right you would have, if you don't know or understand the Balfour Declaration, is to ask those who do know about it.

********************************************
"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

I actually agree with the bulk of what you said, and you even left out the terrorist methods used by early zionists. The occupation is the root problem.

This does not change things though, the 2-state solution is still the only way out. And both sides are still wrong, because no matter how understandable suicide bombing may be, killing children who know nothing of the conflict cannot be justified.

And if there was no Diaspora the Jews wouldnt have left in the first place. Ghandi is a prime example of someone changing the injustices in his country without violence.

Palestinians and Arabs in the area only bothered to negotiate after they had declared war and been beaten several times. Seems to me that extremist reactions to nationalist nation building begat extreme reactions from the soldiers of sovereign nations.....

Ill say it again man. Killing people is wrong. If you are killing people you are wrong, and if you support the killing of people you are probably wrong. There is rarely a situation that needs violence as a solution. Imagine if the Palestinians all had a sit in along the old border? The Israelis couldnt do shit. As long as extremists keep blowing themselves up, and people like you keep justifying it, people wont have much sympathy for the Palestinians, because they will be seen (rightly or wrongly) as extremist guerilla terrorists who go out of their way to kill innocent people, regardless of the fact that the majority of Palestinians arent actually like this and do not agree with it, just like most Israelis arent baby murdering scum who go out of their way to make Palestinian lives miserable.

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

>And if there was no Diaspora the Jews wouldnt have left in
>the first place. Ghandi is a prime example of someone
>changing the injustices in his country without violence.
>
>Palestinians and Arabs in the area only bothered to
>negotiate after they had declared war and been beaten
>several times. Seems to me that extremist reactions to
>nationalist nation building begat extreme reactions from the
>soldiers of sovereign nations.....
>
>Ill say it again man. Killing people is wrong. If you are
>killing people you are wrong, and if you support the killing
>of people you are probably wrong. There is rarely a
>situation that needs violence as a solution. Imagine if the
>Palestinians all had a sit in along the old border? The
>Israelis couldnt do shit. As long as extremists keep blowing
>themselves up, and people like you keep justifying it,
>people wont have much sympathy for the Palestinians, because
>they will be seen (rightly or wrongly) as extremist guerilla
>terrorists who go out of their way to kill innocent people,
>regardless of the fact that the majority of Palestinians
>arent actually like this and do not agree with it, just like
>most Israelis arent baby murdering scum who go out of their
>way to make Palestinian lives miserable.

Okay, when you say people like me keep justifying extremism, you obviously did not digest a word of what I said and have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. And I never made a sweeping indictment of the whole Israeli population like you seem to suggest that I do.

I am just trying to explain to you that moral arguments look beautiful, sexy, warm and fuzzy but they do absolutely nothing to change a situation that can only be resolved by examining the fundemental roots of this violence. We will not solve the problems of the middle east by whining "killing is wrong! boo hoo". The only way to change people's consciousness is by completely changing their material conditions. The problem is material NOT mental. Atleast try and understand this.

About our good passivist friend Ghandi. Well, what do I have to say about our little bald brown fellow from India? Well firstly, Ghandi really had little to nothing to do with the liberation of India. If you dig a little deeper into the issue, several factors played in India's independence. First of all, India achieved this so-called independence in 1947, two years after the official end of World War 2. Britain's armed forces lost over a million troops. The occupation of India by Britain was dominantly a military one. Well, since the British lost so many troops in WWII and could no longer afford to occupy other nation's militarily, the British had no choice but to grant India independence. Furthermore, Ghandi's movement was not as popular as the movement of people who chose physical confrontation. British militarymen, officials and business were driven out of the country by angry Indian's who wanted their country back. If you think India's independence came peacefully, then I suggest you further your historical education.

You also said "And if there was no Diaspora the Jews wouldnt have left in the first place." Honestly, I don't see how this relates to the Palestinians whatsoever. Arabs lived in Palestine long before Jews ever existed and as I recall it was the Romans who created the diaspora, not the Arabs.

Lastly you talk about how Palestinians could solve this matter peacefully. Obviously you have a lot to learn because these very methods have been tried and their efforts have been completely ignored. People have sat at checkpoints in protest, but I guess they got hungry waiting for international cameras. Perhaps you have never lived on less than two dollars a day and do not realize what it must be like to try to feed your family on such little money. Yet you seem like you know exactly what Palestinians should do. What a smart man you must be! I bet you think the intifada is a violent movement. Do some research on it, the intifada has a great deal of peaceful means to protesting the occupation. For example, during the intifada, when Israeli Defense Forces shut down Palestinian schools, parents would take their children to those schools and open them back up. When Israeli Defense Forces imposes a 5pm curfew on ALL Palestinians, then Palestinians would practice their right to visit their friends at 7pm and do their groceries at 8pm in defiance of these humiliatingly disgusting curfews. I've never heard of checkpoints and curfews for Israelis however.

********************************************
"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

I swear I told you before, it isnt a grown up conversation when you start attacking the people you are conversing with. Since you know a lot about history, why dont you go and do that, since you clearly relate with books better than people.

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

I skipped a sentance in there. Why dont you go and read a book.

And if it makes you happy man, why dont we kill all the running dog imperialist, colonialist, slave trading jews who live in Israel and make the poor innocent palestinians live's soooo difficult. I mean they run the world anyway and it isnt like they dont have enough money to build a new homeland anyway right?

While you are reading, check out the figures on infant mortality, and literacy for palestinians in all the countries of the middle east area. I think you will be surprised.

By the way, I am making active moves towards peace. I am Jewish, my father's family is Israeli. I am proud of the work my grandfather put in. And yet I have Palestinian friends who are prepared to agree with me that killing and training to kill are not the solution.

Are you a Palestinian? Do you have Israeli friends? Are you making an effort to seek mutual reconcillitation? Or are you out to blow shit up and hurt people, and to continue encouraging and applauding it on one side whilst saying it is wrong on the other?

There I said it all. I cant think of anything more I would want to say to you on the subject. If you like, I will sew a yellow star of david into the arse of my trousers so you can come and kick it.

Sorry my posts arent more coherent or well thought out to all you literary critics posting on OKP, but I am at work here...

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

Oh my god, he's completely lost it! Look, I never said killing is right, I only said there are conditions that create killing that need to be addressed so that people do not kill anymore.

Oh and I also love how you try and turn this into a big anti-semitism thing! You must have really been watching those OJ Simpson trials real close in order to learn how to play the racism card so easily. Is this argument really that difficult for you to argue rationally? You know, without calling me a racist when I have clearly not said one racist comment about anyone!

I suggest you read Norman Finkelstein, he is a Jewish professor in New York and his perspective is very similar to mine. Educate yourself on critical logic.

********************************************
"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

At what point did I bring up anti-semitism?

You know, without calling me a racist when I have clearly not said one racist comment about anyone!

At what point did I call you a racist?

Educate yourself on critical logic.

I have a job bro, I already went to uni.


And here is the point where you start being personal:

Yet you seem like you know exactly what Palestinians should do. What a smart man you must be!

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

>At what point did I bring up anti-semitism?

At this point: " If you like, I will sew a yellow star of david into the arse of my trousers so you can come and kick it."

And at this point:"And if it makes you happy man, why dont we kill all the running dog imperialist, colonialist, slave trading jews who live in Israel and make the poor innocent palestinians live's soooo difficult."


>At what point did I call you a racist?

See quotations above


>I have a job bro, I already went to uni.

That's fine, a university degree does not guarantee you any real skills in critical thinking

>And here is the point where you start being personal:
>
>Yet you seem like you know exactly what Palestinians should
>do. What a smart man you must be!


Yes, you seem to focus on suicide bombings when suicide bombings are a product of occupation. I hate vomiting, I think it is disgusting but if I drink too much then I know that I will vomit. Vomit is a product of drinking to much just as suicide bombing is a product of occupation. Do you get it? It doesn't mean I like it but Israeli blood is on Likud hands.

********************************************
"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

>At what point did I bring up anti-semitism?
At this point: " If you like, I will sew a yellow star of david into the arse of my trousers so you can come and kick it."

Surely this is similar to saying "you can kiss my black arse goodbye"


And at this point:"And if it makes you happy man, why dont we kill all the running dog imperialist, colonialist, slave trading jews who live in Israel and make the poor innocent palestinians live's soooo difficult."

Isnt that what you want the Israelis to say? Isnt this basically what you think? There wasnt one anti-semitic comment in there as fas as I can tell.



That's fine, a university degree does not guarantee you any real skills in critical thinking

Nope, true but I have done a bit of that as well. I did an Anthropology degree, I have been reading since I was 4.

Your argument about Suicide bombings and vomiting, Im pretty sure that goes the other way too....

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

>I swear I told you before, it isnt a grown up conversation
>when you start attacking the people you are conversing with.
>Since you know a lot about history, why dont you go and do
>that, since you clearly relate with books better than
>people.

I honestly don't know where I insulted you however you do seem to get frustrated when people argue against you. You don't seem to know how to defend yourself in this situation and it is not because you are stupid. It is because you have much to learn on the topic. If I did insult you, which upon re-reading what I wrote I don't think I said anything insulting, then you probably deserved it for accusing me of justifying extremism. That is as big an insult as you can give. Furthermore, if you still feel insulted then you need to grow some thicker skin.

About the history comment, actually I take that as a complement. I'm glad you find me intelligent in history. Now maybe you should try and listen to what I am saying.

********************************************
"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

It is because you have much to learn on the topic.

This I dont deny, everyone has much to learn on every subject.

If I did insult you, which upon re-reading what I wrote I don't think I said anything insulting, then you probably deserved it for accusing me of justifying extremism.

Your position has changed slightly....

That is as big an insult as you can give. Furthermore, if you still feel insulted then you need to grow some thicker skin.

I need not to go onto message boards when I am stressed at work.

About the history comment, actually I take that as a complement. I'm glad you find me intelligent in history.

Im glad you feel that way. I find you well read though. There is a difference...

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

Let me give you a tip. In argument, you cannot claim that someone's position has changed without citing where and how it as changed. It doesn't matter how many elipses you put at the end of a vague and ambiguous comment, it still does not explain itself.

********************************************
"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

You cant justify terrorism and extremism and then pretend that you dont justify extremism man.

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

Also, when you patronise people they generally dont want to know. And ok, you have read a few books. Pay heed to Socrates though - "He who knows most admits that he knows nothing....."

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

Oh, and I forgot, answer the questions at the end of my last post. If you think the violence in the middle east is wrong, what are YOU doing to bring peace?

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

Well, there is nothing I can do personally as an individual to bring peace. However, I am in a group called the Palestine Solidarity Group. What we do is we call for democratic and secular, ONE STATE SOLUTION for Jews and Palestinian Arabs. This, we recognize, as the only pre-condition for peace in the region.

********************************************
"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

You could stop hating the Israelis and try to make some sort of position that incorporates both the parties involved....

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

>You could stop hating the Israelis and try to make some sort
>of position that incorporates both the parties involved....

Here you go talking about hating. Actually, only one of the two people in the region have the wealth and power to stop this. Why don't you take a wild guess who.

********************************************
"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

>Wanting a country for your people is racism?

Yes it is. Wanting a country for "your own people" is based on archaic and racist views. My argument is that for the most part, the people who were run out of historical Palestine want their home back. Quite literally their or their parents's home, They want their house (if it's still standing), their shops,their cultural institutions. There is no mythical basis to the Palestinian's clame on Palestine. It is theirs,plain and simple. The only justice will come from a unified secular and non nationalistic Palestine.

>>Wanting a country for your people is racism?
>
>Yes it is. Wanting a country for "your own people" is based
>on archaic and racist views. My argument is that for the
>most part, the people who were run out of historical
>Palestine want their home back. Quite literally their or
>their parents's home, They want their house (if it's still
>standing), their shops,their cultural institutions. There
>is no mythical basis to the Palestinian's clame on
>Palestine. It is theirs,plain and simple. The only justice
>will come from a unified secular and non nationalistic
>Palestine.

Co-sign!!! That is the only TRUE JUSTICE. Palestine for Muslims, Christians, and Jews. Right of return for the refugees, democratic, secular Palestine. Unified Jerusalem!

"The devil crept into
heaven/God overslept on
the seventh/the New World
Order was born on
September 11th" - Immortal
Technique

I agree, nationalism is a dangerous force. Personally I would rather everyone could just share, but if the Israelis keep training soldiers, and the palestinians keep training terrorists....

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

yes you are a racist, and if you feel you are chosen

get all you can get in this life, cuz you gets nothing in the next life

oooh, i cant wait for jusus to come back

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

No I am not a racist. No I dont believe I am chosen. What's your problem?

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

check out this link:

www.stopwar.ca/images/wall.gif

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"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3186538.stm

I'm horrified at how anti-peace Sharon (and the rest of his government) sounds when responding to this plan. How on earth could they have elected this guy?

Arafat supports it (is that a good thing?).

I think this has much more promise than the Saudi plan. I just hope the Israeli public buy it.

the answers are predictable, you knw where I'm gonna land, so let's start here:

ZIONISM AS RACISM, ISRAEL AS A RACIST STATE:

Psyche.

Define it as religious prejudice if you want, because there are black, arab, caucasian, asian Jews- and mixtures - and racism isn't defined by 'nation' (not nation-STATE), it's defined by the narrow, self-replicating, self-cataloging system we support every day. And yes, there are varying degrees of access, expectations, persecution, and shitty behavior withing that mixture, but we don't live in a perfect world, we are not a monolithic (or monochromatic) culture and the same beefs exist in everyone else's nations, so I really don't care.

As far as Israel being an oppressive, militaristic culture - sure. No argument. But it's no worse than its neighbors. Ask the Christians, ask the Kurds, or if you want to toss Turkey in the mix as peripherally Middle eastern; ask the Armenians. Argue away: the Muslim Middle East is a brutal environment, and Israel is a part of that landscape. Here's a fun-facts page sponsored by an Australian Christian group! http://www.hraic.org/persecution_of_christians.html

Israel is a Jewish state. When its neighbors take 'Islamic Republic of...' off their names and become secular democracies with clear, stable means of election as opposed to vague, unstable means of linear succession; I'll acquiesce. I imagine that day will come twenty minutes after Hell freezes over, so I'll kindly be holding my breath over by the oxygen tanks. There isn't a state in that region that supports a balanced religious plurality, and won't be for some time, if ever. I don't see anyone pissing and moaning over strictly Islamic states, even when they levy injustices within their populations; so I'll take your grinding over a Jewish state as just being a case of 'intense focus'.

That's it.

Two-states.

Let the Russian Roulette begin.

PS: I missed this while OOC.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

Co-sign!

Twisted logic:
"Zionist Israel's occupation of Arab Palestine has forced the Arab world to waste billions of precious dollars on armaments making it impossible for these newly independent Arab nations to concentrate on strengthening the economies of their countries and elevate the living standard of their people."
-Malcolm X

משה גידון בן יעקב עיסר

Nobody here is defending the Islamic Republic of anything dammit! Such reactionary crap. Fact of the matter is that Israel is the only dictatorship in the region which claims to be a democracy while at the same time occupying someone else's territory, installing "Jews only roads", depriving Palestinians of WATER, and a whole slew of other attrocities. Yes these are attrocities whose roots are firmly planted in the occupation. And suicide bombings are also attrocities whose sole existence is owed to the occupation. What seems like the logical step here. Freaking figure it the hell out.

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"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

Syria just had an 'election' with ONE candidate that happened to recieve 99.98 percent of the vote. Care to wager who that was? EVERYONE'S having elections, Pinko! They're all the rage this year, I'm told! Why, in America they just had one a few years ago that was WILDLY succesful!

Give it a rest.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

Syria is hardly boasting itself to be a democracy and if it is then you are correct, Syria sucks too (happy?). Israel, on the other hand, boasts proudly that it's religious tyrannical state is "The only democracy in the middle east!" In fact, I think they of even have banners that boast this. Once again, nobody is defending Arab States. Yes, they are corrupt and they must be taken down (however, not in the manner that Israel and the United States would like). Furthermore, the Israelis are the only occupying force in the middle east that came from outside of the middle east to impose their will on a whole group of people in the name of Zionism.

Zionism IS racism because it is imperative that this movement displace a non-Jewish population in order to establish itself as a Jewish majority. It is integral to creating a state that is "Jewish in character". By the way, have you read Finkelstein yet?

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"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

"The only democracy in the middle east!"

In fact, Israel is one of the few directly proportional states in the whole world. They have a list system. This works in the following manner, a list of people's names with corresponding parties on is drawn up. Then people vote for the party. This is directly proportional (certain people dont get elected if their party doesnt recieve enough votes). Mow this is good and bad. It is bad because it allows religous nutters to have a hold over right wing governments, because they can form powerful coalitions of religous nutters and sway the vote. But this doesnt happen in say Iran, where the religous nutters run the country with no legitimacy at all.

Admittedly things arent great on the Palestinian side of this. This is largely because they have refused to accept the existence of the state of Israel, so it is obviously quite hard for them to find political parties that state their case in the Knesset. Im not going to pretend it is all their fault either, right wing scum like Sharon are racists, and dont want the Arabs involved.

In fact, I think they of even have banners that boast this. Once again, nobody is defending Arab States.

You seem to be judging them on different criteria than you are judging Israel on...


Zionism IS racism because it is imperative that this movement displace a non-Jewish population in order to establish itself as a Jewish majority.

This argument is quite circular really. If the Palestinians are going to have their own state then they will be displacing Israeli settlers ( a jewish minority) in order to establish itself as a Palestinian majority.

It is integral to creating a state that is "Jewish in character". By the way, have you read Finkelstein yet?

Yup, I read the whole trilogy, and did my work with the other hand.

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

>In fact, Israel is one of the few directly proportional
>states in the whole world. They have a list system. This
>works in the following manner, a list of people's names with
>corresponding parties on is drawn up. Then people vote for
>the party. This is directly proportional (certain people
>dont get elected if their party doesnt recieve enough
>votes). Mow this is good and bad. It is bad because it
>allows religous nutters to have a hold over right wing
>governments, because they can form powerful coalitions of
>religous nutters and sway the vote. But this doesnt happen
>in say Iran, where the religous nutters run the country with
>no legitimacy at all.

Yes, Iran is a regressive state. Everyone recognizes that, now we need to bring to attention that Israel is equally, if not more, oppressive. It doesn't matter how many ballots the people of a country cast, it is not a democracy when there is different laws that apply to different ethnic and religious groups. Israeli-Arabs, for example, are NOT allowed to live in certain parts of Israel! A country that occupies territories and violates the sovereignty of another nation by building settlements and stealing resources CANNOT by any definition call itself a democracy.

>Admittedly things arent great on the Palestinian side of
>this. This is largely because they have refused to accept
>the existence of the state of Israel, so it is obviously
>quite hard for them to find political parties that state
>their case in the Knesset. Im not going to pretend it is all
>their fault either, right wing scum like Sharon are racists,
>and dont want the Arabs involved.

Yes, a people like Sharon, who you aknowledge as a racist, have been the driving force of Zionism for over 100 years now.

> In fact, I think they of even have banners that boast this.
>Once again, nobody is defending Arab States.
>
>You seem to be judging them on different criteria than you
>are judging Israel on...

Of course I judge them based on different criteria -THEY ARE NOT OCCUPYING SOMEONE ELSE'S LAND! Also, they don't even pretend to be democratic! Israel does!

>Zionism IS racism because it is imperative that this
>movement displace a non-Jewish population in order to
>establish itself as a Jewish majority.
>
>This argument is quite circular really. If the Palestinians
>are going to have their own state then they will be
>displacing Israeli settlers ( a jewish minority) in order to
>establish itself as a Palestinian majority.

Wow, this is as desperate as an argument can get. Look, Palestinians and Palestine supporters who demand a secular one state solution are not asking for a state that is "Palestinian in character". I am talking about a bi-national state in which Jews and Palestinians are free to go about the nation as they please! Further, I demand that all Palestinian refugees have a right to return to their historical Palestinian homeland. Furthermore, the settlers in the occupied territories are settled illegal by international law, they deserve to be displaced. Palestinians, in Palestine, are not occupying anybody's land. If the Jews want historical Israel of over 2000 years ago, then they sure went about the wrong way of taking it.

> It is integral to creating a state that is "Jewish in
>character". By the way, have you read Finkelstein yet?
>
>Yup, I read the whole trilogy, and did my work with the
>other hand.

I don't know what trilogy you are talking about. I'm talking about Norman Finkelstein, the writer of "The Holocaust Industry" and "Image and Reality of the Israel/Palestine Conflict"(oh, he destroys Benny Morris in this book).

********************************************
"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

It doesn't matter how many ballots the people of a country cast, it is not a democracy when there is different laws that apply to different ethnic and religious groups.

Democracy is a very very hard word to define. What sort of a definition are you using for democracy here...

Israeli-Arabs, for example, are NOT allowed to live in certain parts of Israel!

When was the last time you saw a non muslim in Mecca?

A country that occupies territories and violates the sovereignty of another nation by building settlements and stealing resources CANNOT by any definition call itself a democracy.

You live in the US I live in the UK. These countries are meant to be exemplars of democracy and yet the rules you are talking about, they violate them. And they are not surrounded by people who dont want them there....


Yes, a people like Sharon, who you aknowledge as a racist, have been the driving force of Zionism for over 100 years now.

Not quite true. And for someone who is so fond of looking at the root causes of the problem, go and have a look at who started the wars in 1948 and 1966 (amongst others) that meant that Israel had such a powerful military....
on...

Of course I judge them based on different criteria -THEY ARE NOT OCCUPYING SOMEONE ELSE'S LAND! Also, they don't even pretend to be democratic! Israel does!

Syria is pretending to be democratic. Im sure other Arab countries are... What does someone else's land mean? Do I have a right to go to Liepzig in Germany, to kick the people out of my family house there?


Wow, this is as desperate as an argument can get. Look, Palestinians and Palestine supporters who demand a secular one state solution are not asking for a state that is "Palestinian in character".

What people like Hamas and ISLAMIC Jihad?

> I am talking about a bi-national state in which Jews and >Palestinians are free to go about the nation as they please!

On this I agree with you. Much work has to be done on both sides for this to happen.

Further, I demand that all Palestinian refugees have a right to return to their historical Palestinian homeland.

What does this mean? Surely Israel is also the Jew's historic homeland. The Palestinians were nomadic for much of their history.

Furthermore, the settlers in the occupied territories are settled illegal by international law, they deserve to be displaced.

So a campaign of terror to move them from there will show the illegality? I do agree that the settlers cause enormous problems for the peace process. Guess where the majority of those ultra orthodox settlers come from?? The U.S of A.

Palestinians, in Palestine, are not occupying anybody's land. If the Jews want historical Israel of over 2000 years ago, then they sure went about the wrong way of taking it.

Well, they started off by buying land. Admittedly, they were buying land off the British, but I dont see Palestinian suicide bombers blowing themselves up here, because of the land that the Brits sold (this was before the Balfour declaration by the way). Then the Brits granted them independance (rightly or wrongly) and the fledgling Israel beat off every country surrounding them. It isnt surprising that the Israeli's felt some antipathy towards the Arabs who were within their own country (which they had fought long and hard for. Lets not forget that before Israel had US funding, they did it themselves with homemade guns, and still won) although this doesnt make it right.

But in general, I agree, they went the wrong way about taking it. Just like the Palestinians are going the wrong way about taking it.
I don't know what trilogy you are talking about. I'm talking about Norman Finkelstein, the writer of "The Holocaust Industry" and "Image and Reality of the Israel/Palestine Conflict"(oh, he destroys Benny Morris in this book).

You mean YOU DIDNT READ THE OTHER TWO BOOKS!!!!!! Well then, you arent in a position to argue...

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

>Democracy is a very very hard word to define. What sort of a
>definition are you using for democracy here...

Democracy is not so hard to define when you stop dancing around the issues. By absolutely ANY definition of democracy, you cannot have a democratic State while occupy land and creating laws that are one way for one group and another for another group. It is not that hard a concept

>When was the last time you saw a non muslim in Mecca?

When you lose an argument, you really do get desperate. Actually, there is no law that prohibits non-muslims from living in Mecca. I have had non-muslim friend live there. Further, you are trying to create a false impression that "Mecca belongs to muslims and Israel belongs to Jews" and I am saying no, Arabs have a right to the state of Israel.

>You live in the US I live in the UK. These countries are
>meant to be exemplars of democracy and yet the rules you are
>talking about, they violate them. And they are not
>surrounded by people who dont want them there....

What are you talking about. I have no defense or love for either of the countries you just mentioned. You seem to be getting desperate again. As far as being surrounded by people who don't want them there, I suggest you read up on the IRA in Northern Ireland, another example of people who are victims of occupation. In the United States, they have killed most of the people who's land they are occupying, therefore the opposition is minimal. I just hope that Israel doesn't attempt to practice such genocide.


>Not quite true. And for someone who is so fond of looking at
>the root causes of the problem, go and have a look at who
>started the wars in 1948 and 1966 (amongst others) that
>meant that Israel had such a powerful military....
>on...

I suggest you read up on it. From 1916 until 1948, Zionist settlers had participated in acts of terrorism and violence in order to drive the Arab population out.


>Syria is pretending to be democratic. Im sure other Arab
>countries are... What does someone else's land mean? Do I
>have a right to go to Liepzig in Germany, to kick the people
>out of my family house there?

Just because your family has once been kicked out of their home doesn't mean that the Jews have a right to kick people out of their homes. Unfortunately, the Israelis have adopted many of their techniques from the Nazis.

>What people like Hamas and ISLAMIC Jihad?

I am not talking about Hamas and Islamic Jihad. These groups have developed as the intensity of the occupation has developed. If the occupation eases up, then these groups will also disappear. What I was talking about is a movement that has nothing to do with Hamas and Islamic Jihad. A movement that the Israelis love to ignore because they fell compfortable envisioning Palestinians as terrorists.

>On this I agree with you. Much work has to be done on both
>sides for this to happen.

Actually not really. Israel would have to make the first step and end its multi-billion dollar military occupation of Palestine. Then and only then can something be worked out. ONE STATE SOLUTION!

>What does this mean? Surely Israel is also the Jew's
>historic homeland. The Palestinians were nomadic for much of
>their history.

This is a lie that you have adopted in order to feel better about the occupation. At the same time that Palestinians were nomadic, so were jews. However, Palestinians have settled Palestine as their homeland for many centuries before the Israeli occupation of 1947! Hebrew had not been spoken for more than 2000 years, yet they ressurected the language in order to create a justification for nationalism.


>So a campaign of terror to move them from there will show
>the illegality? I do agree that the settlers cause enormous
>problems for the peace process. Guess where the majority of
>those ultra orthodox settlers come from?? The U.S of A.

It is no problem where the come from. The "U.S of A.", just like Israel, is a terrorist state."


>Well, they started off by buying land. Admittedly, they were
>buying land off the British, but I dont see Palestinian
>suicide bombers blowing themselves up here, because of the
>land that the Brits sold (this was before the Balfour
>declaration by the way). Then the Brits granted them
>independance (rightly or wrongly) and the fledgling Israel
>beat off every country surrounding them. It isnt surprising
>that the Israeli's felt some antipathy towards the Arabs who
>were within their own country (which they had fought long
>and hard for. Lets not forget that before Israel had US
>funding, they did it themselves with homemade guns, and
>still won) although this doesnt make it right.

THIS IS IMPERIALISM!!!!!! THEY HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT TO BUY SOMEONE ELSES LAND FROM BRITAIN!!! GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEAD. Stop going on about suicide bombers, it is getting obnoxious. Suicide bombers did not even exist until the 1990s. And ask you friend Begin about the King David hotel and what kind of terrorism the Zionist were up to.

>But in general, I agree, they went the wrong way about
>taking it. Just like the Palestinians are going the wrong
>way about taking it.
>I don't know what trilogy you are talking about. I'm talking
>about Norman Finkelstein, the writer of "The Holocaust
>Industry" and "Image and Reality of the Israel/Palestine
>Conflict"(oh, he destroys Benny Morris in this book).
>
>You mean YOU DIDNT READ THE OTHER TWO BOOKS!!!!!! Well then,
>you arent in a position to argue...

********************************************
"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

Am I to understand that you referred to the IRA as victims??!!?? I don't want to throw this off-topic but that is pretty offensive. If you had referred to the Republicans in Northern Ireland as being victims of occupation I would just have dismissed it as erroneous, but the IRA?!

No, I didn't say that they were victims. Actually, I admit, my sentence was poorly phrased. However, the IRA is the product of occupation. Further Citizens of Northern Ireland are victims of occupation.

********************************************
"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

The whole reason Northern Ireland exists is because a majority favour the Union, as expressed by election. The UK has no interest in holding Northern Ireland against it's will. Casting off Northern Ireland when a majority want to remain a part of Britain would be wrong. Admittedly there's a lot more to it than that, but I don't want to drag the discussion away from the intended topic.

Don't compare NI with Palestine. NI has the Unionists, Palestine doesn't have pro-Israeli-occupation-ists.

you're right, I apologize. My intention was not to make a direct parallel but to show that the root of violence is in occupation. My point was not supposed to be a deep comparison. South African apartheid is far more synonomous to the occupation of Palestine

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"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."