it is a social construction skewing reality.

cultural anthropology teacher said so.

thats what i learned too

--
www.twitter.com/rosaliiinda

>thats what i learned too

university of texas at austin

--
www.twitter.com/rosaliiinda

The human species may actually now be multiple, extremely closley related, but different species.

Think about it. A species of birds lives on a land mass that is broken into islands, and eventually form different colorations, beak styles/lengths, and other physical uniquenesses based on environment. Scientists will look at this and say that the species has then divided based on these externally induced changes.

Isn't it the same in humans? Didn't people in Europe gradually develop lighter skin tones based on environment? If you accept that we all started out from one race, most likely on the African continent (which I'm not inclined to dispute), then mustn't you also accept that the species split out of necessity as it expanded geographically?

This does not mean that we are not all humans, because we all have the same consciousness that makes us such. But the physical differences do exist.

PS-Although I don't agree entirely with someone like Jonathan Sacks' cultural and moral relativism, I do support his point about embracing the differences in others, as opposed to believing in or trying to enforce sameness throughout humanity.

--

"Old? Gay? Like decks?"
-The Janitor

the closest 'species' to humanity is chimpanzees.... don't confuse 'race' with 'species', or it'll fuck up yr whole argument from the start!

And yes, skin tone and physical characteristics altered due to environs. But the differences are pretty minute on a scientific scale.

_________________________
http://www.paulwalsh.co.nz
art.design.comics.blog.etc

He's saying is no biological anything that determines race. It's defined by society and this is true. What you've stated is fact but that's not what he's talking about.

*I'm hella hella sexy*

Nope. You may be able to argue that we're different sub-species, but not different species. It takes tens or hundreds of thousands of years for new species to develop. Different groups of humans were not separated long enough for this to happen.
===========================================
-Me

---
Love,
Nopayne

very cool that you're taking cultural anthro. that was one of my faves. pay attention to gender issues as well as race issues. hopefully your professor is comprehensive.

race is a political tool. simply put, it is a divisive tool. race is based on physical characteristics such as skin color, facial features, and hair texture. racial identification is not specific to our culture, and exists in most, if not all, "industrialized" societies. issues of colonialism play into favoring "white" skin color. mexicans experience racism within their culture, favoring "Spanish" light skin. indonesians experience racism, favoring the lighter skin of their colonizers.

ethnicity & culture (i'm sure you'll learn), are more concrete. they are based in traditions & practices passed down through generations. things like religion & marriage play important roles in the transmission of culture.

i'm not sure what your major is, but anthro, sociology, & psychology all delve more deeply into subjects like this. i'm a soc major/psych minor, & have taken classes in all of these disciplines regarding race.

keep an open mind. be willing to hear things you probably won't understand at first or will be offended by. learn from things that seem offensive.

you seem like a bright guy, & i enjoy your posts. good luck in your education.

http://Members.BlackPlanet.com/trupeachatl99/

ethnicity & culture (i'm sure you'll learn), are more concrete.

As a Social Anthropology graduate, I would have to disagree. Ethnicity and culture (like race) are largely invented. Traditions are also invented, and whilst religion and marriage are important, politics and economics play as great a role in cultural evolution.

There is my two cents...

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

I respect your opinion and would agree. By concrete, I simply meant that it is something based on more than physical features, and is more easily defined. what is "black" in our culture may not be the same in a culture that doesn't hold to the "one-drop" rule. we can, however, look at food, customs, clothing, and other tangible items as being culturally distinct. I included religion and marriage as examples, but would wholeheartedly agree that politics & economics play large roles in almost every aspect of our lives.

peace


btw, i am interested to know that there is a graduate program for "social anthropology". what school? it seems that anthro is inherently social, so what is the distinction? i'm considering grad school, so all new topics are of interest to me.

http://Members.BlackPlanet.com/trupeachatl99/

Social Anthropology is UK cultural Anthropology.

As for blackness, well I reckon the Australian Aborigines are black, but their culture is wildly different from say, UK black culture, which itself is different from Masaai culture, which is different from Mbuti culture etc etc.

Black as term was invented by white people to describe the African 'other'.

Obviously, Black people appropriated this and used it as a tool of solidarity and some would say resistance against the dominant culture.

So from this we can see that Black is an invented term (by both white and black people), and I predict notions of blackness becoming increasingly fluid as people become more culturally accepting of others (which I believe is happening due to the homogeneity caused by US fueled globalisation...).

Not sure if I understood your point fully though, so I might just have spewed off some thoughts on a random issue...

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

Since ive just started on my studies in ethnology (an academic field at least in my country, which is the studies of cultures and identity), i have to reply too.. i got interested in what you wrote.

In what way are traditions largely invented? How is culture invented like race was invented? Aren't all concepts invented, but they all reflect/describe the reality in some way. Some better than others.

So how shall one view the diversity of humanity?
What i like about using ethnicity as a guidance to viewing the world's diversity is because then I am norwegian rather than White, and my friend is a somali rather than Black. That way it can counter the stereotypes, stigmatization(sp) and prejudice attached to highly generalized categorizations. Instead it encourages the understanding of someone's identity ("he is somali") to a greater extent than what's the case with more generalized groups ("he is black").

Perhaps it wont transcend so easily, what i am saying and the way i see it, since norwegian culture doesn't have the use of black/white as you do in usa. (because of your history)

░▒▓█▌¹♥▐█▓▒░

proud okayphotographer: http://www.okayplayer.com/okayphotographers/

"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." — Marshall McLuhan

In what way are traditions largely invented? How is culture invented like race was invented? Aren't all concepts invented, but they all reflect/describe the reality in some way. Some better than others.

I would agree that apart from empirical concepts such as pain, hunger and thirst, most concepts are invented.

So how shall one view the diversity of humanity?
What i like about using ethnicity as a guidance to viewing the world's diversity is because then I am norwegian rather than White, and my friend is a somali rather than Black.

This is exactly my point. Blackness as a tool is not very useful for understanding Black cultures where there are no White people. See my above post.

Instead it encourages the understanding of someone's identity ("he is somali") to a greater extent than what's the case with more generalized groups ("he is black").

Sure, but there arent many Africans in the US (this is where I get shot down I think) most people are descendants from slaves, bought over by white people. Here Black assumes a different significance, as it has a whole set of economic, historical cultural and political meanings that it would lack in a country full of black people (eg Somalia). Even in those countries I would still say black was a valid term when discussing relations between white Africans and Black Africans, for similar reasons as it is valid to discuss Black Americans.

Perhaps it wont transcend so easily, what i am saying and the way i see it, since norwegian culture doesn't have the use of black/white as you do in usa. (because of your history)

I suspect that Norway has its fair share of racists (correct me if I am wrong). Anyway, any Black people in Norway have only arrived there relatively recently (again, correct me if I am not right), meaning that the effects of the battles of blacks to fight for recognition in other countries had already spread to the socially accepting climate of Norway (see the last two brackets).

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

>i'm not sure what your major is, but anthro, sociology, &
>psychology all delve more deeply into subjects like this.
>i'm a soc major/psych minor, & have taken classes in all of
>these disciplines regarding race.

but i'm getting the paperwork today to change to poli sci.

>you seem like a bright guy, & i enjoy your posts. good luck
>in your education.

why thank you. i am *flattered*

biological race is not real. old news. it is a social construct. older news. it is based on skewed perception. false news. it is divisive. more false news.

.

_______________________
"Arm Leg Leg Arm Hate." c/o desus
_______________________
Divine Ruler
http://www.facebook.com/divineruler
__gigs__
__stuff__

My prof just went over that (knew it already) yesterday in MY anthro class on Colonialism.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but can you answer these questions? I'd simply like you to elucidate further. It seems to me like destroying the notion of 'race' is simply a game of semantics.

What word would we use to categorize the physical differences between different peoples?

Is the DNA of a black man not distinctly different than the DNA of an Eskimo?

Different facial, hair, muscle, skin and copious other qualities are different amongst different races. If race doesn’t account for this what does? Are we different breeds (like a Chocolate Lab as apposed to a Golden Retriever)?

"You fasten all the triggers,
For the others to fire,
Then you sit back and watch,
As the death count gets higher"-Bob Dylan

"Maybe you'll be president,
But know right from wrong,
Or in the flood,
You'll build an Ark,
And sail us to the moon"-Thom Yorke

"I'm in heaven trying to figure out which stack they're going to stuff us atheists into,
When Peter and his monkey laugh and i laugh with them,
I'm not sure what at,
They point and say we'll keep you in the back polishing halos, baking manna and gas"-Modest Mouse

Do yourself a favor,
Be your own savior.

Daniel Johnston

other than that it's been discovered that our DNA probably matches someone from a completely different continent better than it does your neighbur - DNA is more about different "types", and what was used to classify "Race" is only cosmetic differences..
other than that, see ethnology, post #12.

or someone's nationality. but then i see the difficulties for you in USA, though. then you can resort to using your cultural belonging. at worst, your subcultural belonging, such as african american.

life aint in black and white

░▒▓█▌¹♥▐█▓▒░

proud okayphotographer: http://www.okayplayer.com/okayphotographers/

"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." — Marshall McLuhan

Of course there's a lot of ugly cultural occurences and ramifications that come along with race ... but, are you denying that DNA does not play a role in the color of a human's skin, the shape of the eyes, height, weight, etc?

"You fasten all the triggers,
For the others to fire,
Then you sit back and watch,
As the death count gets higher"-Bob Dylan

"Maybe you'll be president,
But know right from wrong,
Or in the flood,
You'll build an Ark,
And sail us to the moon"-Thom Yorke

"I'm in heaven trying to figure out which stack they're going to stuff us atheists into,
When Peter and his monkey laugh and i laugh with them,
I'm not sure what at,
They point and say we'll keep you in the back polishing halos, baking manna and gas"-Modest Mouse

Do yourself a favor,
Be your own savior.

Daniel Johnston

nah, DNA contains the colour of your skin, eyes, hair, etc.. yeah. but there are different DNA "types", and these types cross any category of race. if i remember right, race cannot be traced in the DNA. at least not so easily. and what is much easier to trace is the DNA type, which like i said crosses the races.

if i wasnt so tired, i'd look for an article i read, about a documentary that is showing science's answer to human diversity and differences. i think it is called "man out of africa" or "adam out of africa". in it, one of the strongest points of the scientists was that what has been called "race" is only cosmetic differences, caused by the climates that different groups of humanity have faced.

we're human beings nonetheless. dogs vary extremely in sizes and composition.. but our differences (aside from cultural) are minor and cosmetic, on the surface.

other parts of the documentary is about how humans migrated out of africa, and to what areas, and then add constant mixing, and how that has lead up to today.

░▒▓█▌¹♥▐█▓▒░

proud okayphotographer: http://www.okayplayer.com/okayphotographers/

"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." — Marshall McLuhan

<http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16917>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PEEP GAME:
http://www.reddirt.biz
http://sugartruck.tripod.com


"I am not wrong: wrong is not my name/ My name is my own my own my own/ and I can't tell you who the hell set things up like this/ but I can tell you that from now on my resistance/ my simple and daily and nightly self-determination/ may very well cost you your life"
-June Jordan, "Poem About My Rights"

"Exploitation of all and everything is the fundamental tenet of Capitalism, and exploitation of women is the fundamental tenet of Patriarchy, both of which are the foundation and driving ethos of this country, so Niggers are simply reflecting that in their words and actions. The real problem is that in many cases, you have all these Pro-Capitalist Niggers running around promoting the wonders of Capitalism, and Pro-Patriarchal Bitches telling us that Patriarchy is good, and without something to counter this madness, our children buy into that bullshit. . ."
-Art McGee

Re-member: James, Lorainne, Essex, Audre, Joe, June, Marlon, Assotto. . .

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PEEP GAME:
http://www.reddirt.biz
http://sugartruck.tripod.com


"I am not wrong: wrong is not my name/ My name is my own my own my own/ and I can't tell you who the hell set things up like this/ but I can tell you that

.

For example, take note of the Kobe Bryant pre-trial, where it was stated openly that the jizz in the alleged victim's panties was that of a white male.

"You fasten all the triggers,
For the others to fire,
Then you sit back and watch,
As the death count gets higher"-Bob Dylan

"Maybe you'll be president,
But know right from wrong,
Or in the flood,
You'll build an Ark,
And sail us to the moon"-Thom Yorke

"I'm in heaven trying to figure out which stack they're going to stuff us atheists into,
When Peter and his monkey laugh and i laugh with them,
I'm not sure what at,
They point and say we'll keep you in the back polishing halos, baking manna and gas"-Modest Mouse

Do yourself a favor,
Be your own savior.

Daniel Johnston

Race is not as social as racism because groups are different regardless. Someone of the same culture can be of a different race. Culture is very important but I refuse to kick race out the door when race put people in positions of have and have nots.

"We are not stunted in spirit, we are not europeans, we are not Christians that we should invent fables a child would laugh at and harden our eyes to preach them daylight and deep night as truth. We are not Arabs, we are not Muslims to fabricate a desert

Race is not biological and is a social construct. Ok. But the point is that people don't treat it that way. Because of that the color line remains.

_________________________________________

Obama Answer Center: http://answercenter.barackobama.com

--

"Forget Black History Month, how about live an African History Life"-Ansley Burrows

The Jewish liberal media will do anything to fool the public and remain in control of nearly EVERY fortune 500 company and EVERY TV station. I suggest you learn more about the Jewish agenda before making such foolish claims!!!!!!!!!!!!

****SIG!******
DO DA DAMN THING NUKKA! http://www.freephotoiPods.com/?r=13236380

*shrugs and scratches head*

----------------------------------------------------------

The Rand (Paul or Ayn) philosophy, putting private property rights at
the same level of human rights, equates the status of things with the
status of human beings. If property is considered equal

n/m

****SIG!******
DO DA DAMN THING NUKKA! http://www.freephotoiPods.com/?r=13236380

I haven't even started journalism yet and I've already been offered a job as anchor on a national newscast.

cuz i just posted this randomly after visiting stormfront.net. I guess that site is alright after all.

****SIG!******
DO DA DAMN THING NUKKA! http://www.freephotoiPods.com/?r=13236380

>cuz i just posted this randomly after visiting
>stormfront.net. I guess that site is alright after all.

Fuck Yeah, I'm the devil and you're sub-human. Those crackers know their shit.

White power! Im sick and tired of the way cats respond when i rock my swastika chain and KKK hood. If u aint down with the movement, then dont hate, thats what I always say!
Oh well, I guess ima always be the only black man reppin Tha Front. Maybe you can be the only Jew reppin them too.

****SIG!******
DO DA DAMN THING NUKKA! http://www.freephotoiPods.com/?r=13236380

This is old news, but here is a website that might give you and all readers of this thread more information.

http://www.pbs.org/race/000_General/000_00-Home.htm

Using Phenotype has long been a way for those with power to keep the power amongst themselves and their descendants.


******************************

"To Each His Reach"
-George Clinton

______________________________________________________________________________

"To Each His Reach"

but.....

Fuck aliens.

there is no biological basis for race.
Answer this question for me though?
If there is no biological basis for race, then how come certain heriditary diseases, like sickle cell, are race specific?

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

Or rather, evolutionary. Race is the result of natural selectiuon based on the necessities of survival in different parts of the world. Biological differences go beyond skin tone, too. Why do pygmies live in heavily forested areas? Why do mountain people have such large chests/lungs? It's all biology.

--

"Old? Gay? Like decks?"
-The Janitor

Sickle cell is a disease that
affects people of all different
racial and ethnic backgrounds,
including African, Arabian, Israeli,
Greek, Italian, Hispanic, Turkish,
and Pakistani. Although unlikely,
it is entirely possible for a blond-
haired, blue-eyed child of Northern
European extraction to have sickle
cell disease.

----------------------------------------------------------

The Rand (Paul or Ayn) philosophy, putting private property rights at
the same level of human rights, equates the status of things with the
status of human beings. If property is considered equal

Sickle-cell anemia is a biological defense against malaria. Sickle-cell anemia affects those from regions with high malaria infection. It is not race bound, but regional and therefore the descedants of the people from malaria regions carry on the genes.

***************************************

www.twitter.com/MsKianga
http://nativebeadwork.blogspot.com/
'I can't stand Tim McCarver. He has a penchant for making blindingly obvious statements in a self-congratulatory tone' Kyle Lohse

http://www.pbs.org/race/000_General/000_00-Home.htm

the truth of the matter is phenotypical differences are real. what they represent through the rubric of "race" as we know it...THAT's the illusion.

______________________________
for a minute there, i lost myself.

the argument is semantics, and i was taught phenotype is synonymous with race, as most 'scientists' identify it anyway. socially, there may be differences. my background is in biology and not really sociology so i look at it a little differently.

I'm not gonna befuddle you with "late-passes". Congrats on taking a cultural anthro class and let me suggest that you follow that up with a biological/phsyical anthropology class. You'll learn a lot more about the physical anatomy and evolution of humans. The race issue is also dealt with in that field. Considering that we share 99% of our DNA with Chimps, as homo-sapiens we are so much alike, but focus on physical differences and try to classify them into "races".

***************************************

www.twitter.com/MsKianga
http://nativebeadwork.blogspot.com/
'I can't stand Tim McCarver. He has a penchant for making blindingly obvious statements in a self-congratulatory tone' Kyle Lohse

yeah of course its not real, blacks, mexicans, etc are all thoroughly and disparately amalgamated yet all are viewed the same. most "races" are and on top of that many people are of more than one racial category. "social construction" is the term for it, but I gotta say, like most things, there is a problem, there is a term, but there aint no solution coming from the left

where there is a solution coming from, and a shitty one at that, is the right. i feel bad for asking, but did prop 54 pass in Cali? Ive been outta state for this whole recall fiasco. But thats what they propose, fine, no real race, no desire for racial categories and disparate practice, preference, etc, then lets not even acknowledge race'

this is not the way to go, because the social constructs ARE real and are important and they would like nothing more than to find a new one way to ignore them. When you see changes coming from the establishment, you know they are being made only to keep things the same, thus the cliche "the more things change the more they stay the same." Its not because of some innate human behavior or any bullshit like that, its by design

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

there are no "lines" separating one "race" from another. Who's to say "OK, *here's* the line - one shade lighter than this is latino, one shade darker than this is black..."?

Think of a box that has no sides, no top and no bottom... it's not really a box, is it?

-----
Get over yourself.

we're different.

really read your book(s), don't just listen to your professor.

We're genetically way too similar to be considered subspecies. Besides, there is no obvious division. It all kind of blurs together, because people have been in contact with eachother and we've only existed for a short period. Most people would be mutts if you take this race thing back a while.

There certainly are differences, but the way we currently classify race is nonsense.
http://www.pbs.org/race/000_General/000_00-Home.htm

water IS in fact..WET!

news at 11

SHMEA?!

just let your soooooulglooooooow

________________________________________
It's A Boy and his name is MILES KHALIL YOUNG

With all due respect, so what white folks finally admit race is not a biological construct.

That's just like a Cherokee knocking on a white man's door explaining that the land the white man occupies belongs to his great great great great grandmothers and fathers. Now mind you, he has the historical documentation to prove it. Knowing this and indulging in the benefits this land provided do you think the white man is going to off and give up his land to cure the injustice of the Cherokee? Especially when history proves otherwise.

"Forget Black History Month, how about live an African History Life"-Ansley Burrows

yeah i agree with what youre saying here, even though the myths may be falling in rhetoric, their systemic effects persist and people wont do shit about it

thats the problem with social and justice studies in my opinion, too much problem identification and no action whatsoever. i think thoughtful ambiguity is great, but it doesnt mean inaction is the only course of action, it means fuck with solutions, be patient but stay flexible. sounds simple, but seems impossible

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

Evolution is the way of life on Earth and evolution/life thrives on diversity. If there were no diversity in humans, we humans as a whole would become extinct because if all of us, all 600 million of us tried to live the same way...meaning ate the same foods, used the same plants, animals, and other natural resources to build our homes, make our clothes et c...we would be extinct in less than 50yrs because we would use up all of those particular resources...therefore different types of humans require different things to survive and are biologically equipped to live in different areas. For example, most people of West Afrikan decent are lactose intolerant so would not thrive in a cattle herding culture and most Europeans red blood cells are not equipped to deal with malaria, making them less likely to survive in a tropical climate.So while race as a Eurocentric way of defining an inferior "other" is a fallacy, the diversity of the human family, is real an ordained by the Universe and the Creatress/tor. Humans are not the same scientifically and that is a GOOD thing.

~~~My spirit is too ancient to understand the separation of soul & gender...My love is too delicate to have thrown back in my face...Ntozake Shange~~~

yeah there are differences but they are not monolithic and most of the research and "conclusive" findings have some dangerous underpinnings. most groups and people are so mixed that its difficult to tell exactly where they fall in the genetic spectrum though there are similarities based upon genetic history/evolution.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.