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foxnesn
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Wed May-25-05 10:11 AM

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"what is religious tolerance?"


  

          

it is this baptist group's belief that the koran should be flushed. muslims think that is considered intolerant. however, the baptists could come back and say that the muslim's are not tolerating the baptist's beliefs. so...what does it mean to excercise religious tolerance?

http://www.thedigitalcourier.com/articles/2005/05/24/news/news01.txt

FOREST CITY -- A sign in front of a Baptist church on one of the most traveled highways in the county stirred controversy over religious tolerance and first-amendment rights this weekend.

A sign in front of Danieltown Baptist Church, located at 2361 U.S. 221 south reads "The Koran needs to be flushed," and the Rev. Creighton Lovelace, pastor of the church, is not apologizing for the display.

"I believe that it is a statement supporting the word of God and that it (the Bible) is above all and that any other religious book that does not teach Christ as savior and lord as the 66 books of the Bible teaches it, is wrong," said Lovelace. "I knew that whenever we decided to put that sign up that there would be people who wouldn't agree with it, and there would be some that would, and so we just have to stand up for what's right."

Seema Riley, a Muslim, who was born in Pakistan and reared in New York, was one of those upset by the sign.

She moved to Rutherford County for the "small town friendly" atmosphere, she said. When she saw the sign on the side of the highway Saturday she felt angered and threatened.

"We need a certain degree of tolerance," said Riley. "That sign doesn't really reflect what I think this county is about."

She said that according to Islamic faith, a follower does not even touch the Koran without going through a ritual cleansing. Muslims believe the physical book to be a sacred item that is treated with respect and reverence, much like the image of Jesus in Christianity, according to a report on National Public Radio.

"For someone to put that sign up -- the person just didn't understand -- didn't take into consideration what putting up that sign means," said Riley. "I don't think it should be posted on a sign in public viewing on the highway to create a hostile environment for me."

The appearance of the sign follows a national news story from last week. Newsweek magazine retracted a story reporting that military guards at the U.S. prison at Guantanamo Bay flushed a copy of the Koran down the toilet during interrogation of a detainee. The Newsweek story sent Washington in a frenzy and was blamed for igniting Muslim riots and deaths abroad, including a particularly violent outburst in Afghanistan.

"Our creed as a Christian, or a Protestant, or a Baptist church -- of course we don't have a creed but the bible -- but we do have the Baptist faith and message that says that we should cling to the 66 books of the Holy Bible and any other book outside of that claiming to know the way of God or claiming to be God's word is automatically written off and is trying to defeat people from the way of true righteousness inside of our viewpoint in how we view the word of God," Lovelace said.

"Putting such a sign in a public place is an un-American example of intolerance, of aggressive disrespect for other citizens' deeply held views," said Donald Searing, Burton Craige Professor of Political Science at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. "This is the sort of attitude and action that seriously endangers the liberty which lies at the heart of our democracy. It is also a good reminder that just because one may have the legal right to say something, doing so may not be morally, socially or politically desirable."

When Lovelace was asked whether he considered before he put the sign up that there may be some consequences or that some people may be angered, he said he was aware of the likelihood of angering some people.

"Well, I thought about it and I said there may be people who are offended by it but the way I look at it, Jesus told his followers that if the world hates you, don't feel bad because they hated me first," said Lovelace. "If we stand for what is right and for God's word and for Christianity then the world is going to condemn us and so right away when I got a complaint I said 'well somebody's mad, somebody's offended, so we must be doing something right.'"

Danieltown Baptist Church belongs to the Sandy Run Baptist Association and the association's Director of Missions the Rev. Jim Diehl said that Lovelace's opinion does not necessarily reflect that of that organization.

"Each of the churches of the Sandy Run Baptist Association are autonomous bodies," said Diehl. "Each church can develop a stance on doctrinal issues and can develop its own stance on moral issues."

The Rev. Billy Honeycutt, of the Green River Baptist Association said that he hopes that those who see the sign keep tolerance in mind.

"Respecting religion is important and respecting other people is important," said Honeycutt. "Hopefully, a lot of people will have that thought when they see the sign."

Following the religious controversy at a church in Waynesville where several members were asked to leave in what was termed a dispute over politics, several groups threatened to boycott the entire town due to the actions of one preacher.

Director of the Rutherford County Chamber of Commerce Bill Hall said he does not think that the Danieltown sign will have a negative impact on the county's tourism or economic vitality.

"It is unfortunate that things like that happen and it certainly doesn't represent Rutherford County," said Hall. "I think that most people will understand that that is not a common attitude in this community."

Lovelace said he felt it was the work of God to display the sign and that no one in the church has spoken up against it to him.

He said the church has 55 members on the roster and he has only received one angry phone call since the sign was posted.

"We have a good group of people," said Lovelace.

Lovelace said the sign changes every week.

"About Friday or Saturday we will have a new sign," he said. "It should state to some effect 'Where are your treasures? Are they at the flea market or are they in heaven?'"

Lovelace said that he does not have anything against the flea market that recently opened up down the street from the church.

"I enjoy a good flea market, but if people can be down there at eight o'clock why can't they be at church at 11," he said.

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
In this case, it means nothing.
May 24th 2005
1
RE: In this case, it means nothing.
May 24th 2005
2
      RE: In this case, it means nothing.
May 24th 2005
3
           I've got Michael W. Smith in my basement, and a knife.
May 25th 2005
4
           RE: In this case, it means nothing.
May 25th 2005
5
                Sure. Answers inside.
May 25th 2005
8
                     RE: Sure. Answers inside.
May 25th 2005
10
                          What does that have to do with what I said? n/m
May 25th 2005
11
                               Absolutely nothing.
May 25th 2005
13
                               RE: Absolutely nothing.
May 25th 2005
14
                                    RE: Absolutely nothing.
May 25th 2005
18
                                         RE: Absolutely nothing.
May 25th 2005
21
                                              RE: Absolutely nothing.
May 26th 2005
22
                                                   RE: Absolutely nothing.
May 26th 2005
24
                                                        You showed your hand in your reply to Nettrice.
May 26th 2005
28
                                                             typical
May 26th 2005
32
                               RE: What does that have to do with what I said? n/m
May 25th 2005
15
                                    Oh.
May 25th 2005
16
                                         while that article is both informative and interesting...
May 25th 2005
17
                                              I thought that what the Brother Minister
May 25th 2005
19
god north carolina sucks
May 25th 2005
6
RE: god north carolina sucks
May 25th 2005
7
This Reverend Lovelace is not a Christian. Furthermore
May 25th 2005
9
It's simple
May 25th 2005
20
Game over.
May 26th 2005
23
RE: It's simple
May 26th 2005
25
      Please learn something about islam
May 26th 2005
26
      Namean? is it so hard to learn? wow. KKK is Christian.
May 28th 2005
59
      I see no difference
May 26th 2005
27
      hold up.
May 26th 2005
31
           RE: hold up.
May 26th 2005
35
           RE: hold up.
May 26th 2005
37
           Huh?
May 26th 2005
36
                *sigh*
May 27th 2005
53
                     RE: *sigh*
May 27th 2005
54
                          you believe in absolutes too. n/m
May 27th 2005
56
                               ummm....riiight
May 27th 2005
58
      A very weak argument
May 26th 2005
30
           RE: A very weak argument
May 26th 2005
34
                Did you even read what he wrote?
May 26th 2005
38
                RE: Did you even read what he wrote?
May 26th 2005
42
                     RE: Did you even read what he wrote?
May 26th 2005
44
                Are you in Denial?
May 26th 2005
46
                     RE: Are you in Denial?
May 27th 2005
50
Tolerance means you don't deride others beliefs
May 26th 2005
29
RE: Tolerance means you don't deride others beliefs
May 26th 2005
33
      The Mission
May 26th 2005
39
      RE: The Mission
May 26th 2005
40
           RE: The Mission
May 26th 2005
41
                RE: The Mission
May 26th 2005
43
                     RE: The Mission
May 26th 2005
45
                          RE: The Mission
May 27th 2005
49
                               Wha?
May 27th 2005
52
      It's called we live in America
May 26th 2005
47
           RE: It's called we live in America
May 27th 2005
51
RE: what is religious tolerance?
May 27th 2005
48
OK
May 27th 2005
55
Because you don't love your neighbor. n/m
May 27th 2005
57

Battousai
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Tue May-24-05 05:56 PM

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1. "In this case, it means nothing."
In response to Reply # 0


          

Considering you're right in the middle of Danieltown, North Carolina...which is not exactly known for its vibrant Muslim community.

Pop that shit where there is a significant Muslim presence and let's see how well that goes down.

--

Your San Francisco Giants: 4.26.2005 - 8.15.2005.

  

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foxnesn
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Tue May-24-05 07:41 PM

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2. "RE: In this case, it means nothing."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

>Considering you're right in the middle of Danieltown, North
>Carolina...which is not exactly known for its vibrant Muslim
>community.
>
>Pop that shit where there is a significant Muslim presence and
>let's see how well that goes down.
>

what do you think the response by the muslim community would be? violent?

  

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Medina
Member since Dec 01st 2004
127 posts
Tue May-24-05 11:37 PM

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3. "RE: In this case, it means nothing."
In response to Reply # 2


          

>>Considering you're right in the middle of Danieltown, North
>>Carolina...which is not exactly known for its vibrant Muslim
>>community.
>>
>>Pop that shit where there is a significant Muslim presence
>and
>>let's see how well that goes down.
>>
>
>what do you think the response by the muslim community would
>be? violent?
>

Yes us Muslims would get a crowd and behead those "infidel" Christians for giving us their despicable Christian punk rock music.

  

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FireBrand
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Wed May-25-05 12:03 AM

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4. "I've got Michael W. Smith in my basement, and a knife."
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

He's wearing and orange jumpsuit.

I'm sure u see where this is going.




Rules to post by (Break them, get deleted): http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines

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<<<<----Sam Sharpe. 3rd World people, remember where ya coming from!

  

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foxnesn
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Wed May-25-05 05:09 AM

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5. "RE: In this case, it means nothing."
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

care to give a serious answer? i mean, if we re talking about religious tolerance certainly the muslim community would like to clear the air.

  

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FireBrand
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Wed May-25-05 06:35 AM

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8. "Sure. Answers inside."
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

www.islamicity.com

Everything you ever wanted to know plus discourse. I got more links if u want 'em.

I laff when Christians talk about Muslims hating christians. If we hated Christiens, would we marry people of the book like Jews and Christians? No. We love Jesus too and await his return just like ya'll.

Get outta here with that.




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<<<<----Sam Sharpe. 3rd World people, remember where ya coming from!

  

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foxnesn
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Wed May-25-05 08:42 AM

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10. "RE: Sure. Answers inside."
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

the koran doesnt teach that christ is the savior...

  

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FireBrand
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Wed May-25-05 09:00 AM

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11. "What does that have to do with what I said? n/m"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          


Rules to post by (Break them, get deleted): http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines

www.northernarc.net
www.myspace.com/egyptianknight

<<<<----Sam Sharpe. 3rd World people, remember where ya coming from!

  

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Battousai
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Wed May-25-05 02:12 PM

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13. "Absolutely nothing."
In response to Reply # 11


          

I'm still trying to grasp the whole point of this thread. If anything, it just establishes Mr. Lovelace's credentials as an all-American asshole.

--

Your San Francisco Giants: 4.26.2005 - 8.15.2005.

  

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foxnesn
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Wed May-25-05 02:19 PM

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14. "RE: Absolutely nothing."
In response to Reply # 13
Wed May-25-05 02:20 PM by foxnesn

  

          

the point of this thread is to discuss how the idea of religous tolerance is bunk. if religion 'A' preaches to kill religion 'B' then should religion 'B' be tolerant toward that? sp again, what does it mean to be exercise religous tolerance?

  

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Battousai
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Wed May-25-05 07:09 PM

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18. "RE: Absolutely nothing."
In response to Reply # 14


          

>the point of this thread is to discuss how the idea of
>religous tolerance is bunk. if religion 'A' preaches to kill
>religion 'B' then should religion 'B' be tolerant toward that?
> sp again, what does it mean to be exercise religous
>tolerance?

You're referring to ecumenicalism, then. Religious tolerance refers to the purvey of the state in matters spiritual. Under the established rubric of religious tolerance, the state can allow the existence of other religions (if there is a state religion) or prohibit the establishment of any particular religion (if there is no state religion).

And if religion 'A' (I presume you're referring to Islam) preaches violence against religion 'B' (I presume you're referring to Christianity), then I have to say that you are intellectually lazy at best, willfully and maliciously ignorant at worst.

--

Your San Francisco Giants: 4.26.2005 - 8.15.2005.

  

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foxnesn
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Wed May-25-05 09:14 PM

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21. "RE: Absolutely nothing."
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

>You're referring to ecumenicalism, then. Religious tolerance
>refers to the purvey of the state in matters spiritual. Under
>the established rubric of religious tolerance, the state can
>allow the existence of other religions (if there is a state
>religion) or prohibit the establishment of any particular
>religion (if there is no state religion).

so you think it comes down to what the 'state' allows? what if the 'state' is ruled by maniacs hell bent on killing people who dont believe in what they do?
>
>And if religion 'A' (I presume you're referring to Islam)
>preaches violence against religion 'B' (I presume you're
>referring to Christianity), then I have to say that you are
>intellectually lazy at best, willfully and maliciously
>ignorant at worst.

you would be assuming incorrect of course. i meant the exact opposite...but i would expect no less from the people on this board to assume otherwise.

  

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Battousai
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Thu May-26-05 12:32 AM

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22. "RE: Absolutely nothing."
In response to Reply # 21


          

>so you think it comes down to what the 'state' allows? what if
>the 'state' is ruled by maniacs hell bent on killing people
>who dont believe in what they do?

Then there's a state religion. Look at historical examples and tell me if there has been an organized religion (which is a redundancy, really--religion implies organization) that has not been either suppressed or coopted by the state? Religion offers a nexus of power distinct from the state, and it's usually up to the state whether to crush it or dance with it. Read up on the early history of the Anglican Church and you'll see what I'm talking about.

The separation of church and state is a very recent phenomenon, given at least two millenia of a symbiotic relationship between politics and religion.

>>And if religion 'A' (I presume you're referring to Islam)
>>preaches violence against religion 'B' (I presume you're
>>referring to Christianity), then I have to say that you are
>>intellectually lazy at best, willfully and maliciously
>>ignorant at worst.
>
>you would be assuming incorrect of course. i meant the exact
>opposite...but i would expect no less from the people on this
>board to assume otherwise.

Come up with a better example than you gave in your initial post, then. Check your train of thought--violence against Muslims by Christians in retribution for violence against Christians by Muslims leads to more retribution. Down a dark path such thinking leads, foolish padawan.

--

Your San Francisco Giants: 4.26.2005 - 8.15.2005.

  

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foxnesn
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Thu May-26-05 04:40 AM

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24. "RE: Absolutely nothing."
In response to Reply # 22
Thu May-26-05 04:41 AM by foxnesn

  

          

>Then there's a state religion. Look at historical examples and
>tell me if there has been an organized religion (which is a
>redundancy, really--religion implies organization) that has
>not been either suppressed or coopted by the state? Religion
>offers a nexus of power distinct from the state, and it's
>usually up to the state whether to crush it or dance with it.
>Read up on the early history of the Anglican Church and you'll
>see what I'm talking about.

be more specific with how this applies to excercising religous tolerance relating to the article.
>
>The separation of church and state is a very recent
>phenomenon, given at least two millenia of a symbiotic
>relationship between politics and religion.

duh...

>>you would be assuming incorrect of course. i meant the exact
>>opposite...but i would expect no less from the people on
>this
>>board to assume otherwise.
>
>Come up with a better example than you gave in your initial
>post, then.

no...stop assuming the worst in people.

Check your train of thought--violence against
>Muslims by Christians in retribution for violence against
>Christians by Muslims leads to more retribution.

and this applis ot my previous posts how?

Down a dark
>path such thinking leads, foolish padawan.

um...

  

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Battousai
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Thu May-26-05 11:43 AM

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28. "You showed your hand in your reply to Nettrice."
In response to Reply # 24


          

I really have nothing more to say to you regarding this. Do your homework and tighten up your game--it's sloppy.

--

Your San Francisco Giants: 4.26.2005 - 8.15.2005.

  

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foxnesn
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Thu May-26-05 02:04 PM

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32. "typical"
In response to Reply # 28
Thu May-26-05 02:05 PM by foxnesn

  

          

this isnt a contest, it is a convo...but maybe you need to boost your weak ego via the internet. its sad cause you didnt even address the issue at hand. keep dancing around it though if it makes you feel better.

  

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foxnesn
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Wed May-25-05 02:25 PM

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15. "RE: What does that have to do with what I said? n/m"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

you said you are awaiting the return of christ. since the koran states that christ is not the messiah, but a prophet why care if he returns. christ himself states that he is the son of god, the messiah, and that there is no other. see the conflict? if christ returns then christ is the son of god, not a prophet like the koran teaches.

  

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FireBrand
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Wed May-25-05 05:34 PM

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16. "Oh."
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

Courtesy of Brother OKP Nupwrsoul on the Ummahboards

http://www.ummah1421.com/boards/index.php4?act=ST&f=1&t=7267&s=9a96eb1363b2f2890faf0d11c219aa54

IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE BENEFICENT, THE MERCIFUL.

Wednesday, May 25, 2005

PRESS STATEMENT

By the Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan
Delivered at Mosque Maryam

The recent furor allegedly created by a Newsweek article that stated that the Holy Book of the Muslims, The Qur’an, was flushed in a toilet and that this was responsible for the demonstrations and, riots that have taken place in many parts of the Muslim World is at best only partly true.

The article in and of itself was a trigger, but the real truth is that the detainees who have left Abu Ghraib Prison in Iraq and Guantanamo Base in Cuba and other facilities have complained that American and British soldiers and other Foreign Nationals have been grossly disrespectful and filled with hatred for Islam, Muslims, Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) and the Holy Qur’an.

The hatred of the American government in the Arab and Muslim World is not only due to an article in Newsweek magazine, but it is the policies of the Government of the United States that have also incensed the whole Arab and Muslim World.

Although Newsweek magazine is backing down from the story that it published due to tremendous governmental pressure, the truth still remains that there is gross disrespect of the culture and way of life that Muslims strive to follow as guided by the Holy Qur’an and the example of Prophet Muhammad Ibn Abdullah (Peace Be Upon Him).

Currently, this anti-Muslim behavior has its roots high up in the Government of the United States of America and is being preached from various pulpits by certain highly influential Christian leaders.

We have seen and heard, from the time of 9/11, many respected Christian leaders saying that Islam is a religion of violence and hatred; that the Religion of Islam sees Christians and Jews as infidels and teaches that they should be killed; and that the God of Islam or the God of Muslims is the devil. This has created an atmosphere of hatred, fanned by the media, that causes Muslims to be persecuted as we move about doing our daily work, pursuing our careers or just being normal citizens who believe in the Religion of Islam.

Members of the Muslim community in America are some of the most law-abiding, well-behaved citizens in this country. Muslim scholars have added much to academia, medicine, science and technology, business, banking, paying into the tax structure and into this economy, while at the same time suffering injustice and abuse, trying to travel in the country or out of it, being harassed when returning.

Many Muslims who support the Intifadah (uprising of the Palestinian youth), Hamas or organizations that see themselves as fighting against the illegal occupation of land and territory because of the power of the Government of the United States are labeled as terrorists. Muslims who give charity to these organizations are prosecuted, persecuted and are now being sent to prison or deported. This gross injustice must not, and will not, be tolerated.

The disrespect of the Holy Qur’an, a Book believed in by 1,600,000,000 Muslims, is unacceptable. In truth, however, there are many Muslims who will not read the Bible and have shown disrespect for the scriptures of the Bible. When we disrespect what Allah (God) has revealed through His Prophets, we are also being disrespectful of the people who believe in that scripture.

This is why, in today’s context, the work of the Messiah is so important. In the Qur’an, Allah (God) says that the Messiah will be taught Al-Kitab (The Book)—Qur’an, and he will be taught the wisdom, the Torah, and the Gospel, or the Injil.

Why would the Messiah be taught the wisdom of the Qur’an, the Torah and the Injil? It must be because His Mission is the unification of all of the children of Abraham—Muslims, Christians and Jews. Each Book, the Torah, Injil and Qur’an, were revealed for the elevation of human beings that we may, by following such Guidance, reclaim the original position that the Creator intended for human beings.

From the Biblical point of view, that position is to be a reflection of the Creator and to rule His Creation by His Guidance and Permission.

From the Qur’anic point of view, the original position is to be Khalifah, or one who stands in the place of Allah (God) to rule His Creation also by His Guidance and Permission.

So, should not the human being for whom these Books are revealed be looked upon as equal in importance, or even more important, than the Books revealed for our evolutionary development?

The Qur’an that is being flushed in a toilet has no feeling. The Qur’an that is urinated upon has no feeling. Nothing that anyone does to the Qur’an—sitting on it, standing on it, kicking it—diminishes the Power of the Word contained in this Book to transform human life. This manifests gross ignorance, contempt and hatred of those who do these acts for a Book that was revealed for the elevation of all human beings. Should we rise up because of the desecration and disrespect of the Qur’an? Yes, but we should rise up even more so when we see the persecution of those who believe in the Book because they have feelings and it is they who can feel torture and pain, and not the disrespect of this Holy Book, and it was for them for whom the Book was revealed.

For the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, and the Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, to say, "How terrible was the article in Newsweek, which they say was false, that led to the killing of 17 persons and the wounding of hundreds more." But how much more heinous and evil was it to drop bombs on the Muslim and Christian populations of Iraqi and Afghanistan; to kill tens of thousands of Iraqis and Afghans; to wound hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and Afghans; to kill nearly 1,700 Americans; and wound thousands of American soldiers—all on the basis of a lie? Which is worse, what Newsweek did or what the Government of the United States did?

Yes, we are insulted when the Qur’an is disrespected but, as followers of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, we are equally insulted when the Bible or Torah is disrespected. All of us who love Allah (God) and what is revealed are insulted when any Divine Revelation is spat upon and desecrated, but what is even more horrible is to see the slaughter of human beings over words in a Book that cannot express feelings and pain.

Even if the Newsweek article is retracted, the Red Cross, Human Rights Watch, Doctors without Borders and other organizations have issued similar reports, which have been ignored. So, as Muslims, we say enough is enough. We are mobilizing Arab and Muslim countries to say to the Government of the United States: "If these Muslims are guilty, then charge and try them, but to hold them for years without a charge is inhumane and unjust. We, in the Muslim Ummah, cannot tolerate this. We are asking that you try them and, if you have no charge, let them go to their people or their homes."

To stop this furor, we are asking the Government of the United States to allow a delegation of Muslims, Christians, Hebrews and Jews, led by members of the United States Congress, to visit the Guantanamo Base detention facility and speak to some of the detainees. Should we find that these allegations are true, then the Government must take steps to correct this, so that America’s image in the world will not be further sullied, and the repair of damaged relationships can begin.

© Copyright 2005 FCN Publishing, FinalCall.com



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<<<<----Sam Sharpe. 3rd World people, remember where ya coming from!

  

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foxnesn
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17. "while that article is both informative and interesting..."
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

it does not address the conflict between christ as the savior written in the bible and the koran stating christ was only a prophet. if allah revealed the truth to christ and he said he is the messiah how is this reconciled?

  

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FireBrand
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19. "I thought that what the Brother Minister"
In response to Reply # 17
Wed May-25-05 08:10 PM by FireBrand

  

          

wrote did a good job of explaining alotta issues- even tho as NOI he and I don't see eye to eye on some issues, he did well to explain some ish in that article.

As for Messiah's and all that.

That wasn't the point of this post (I thought), and as I am not an Qu'ranic scholar I think I'll leave further explanation to the revelations of The Prophet (PBUH), and the Word of Allah (swt).

Read and reconcile it for yourself.

It aint gonna eat you.

Kills me that folk can find similarities with Christianity and Judiasm when Islam has so much more in common.

Nevertheless, as Christians, Jews, and Muslims we are all believers of the book. I don't see why it's so hard for us all to get along.

But maybe family quarells burn hot.







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south_jersey
Member since Jan 12th 2003
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6. "god north carolina sucks"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


julie
dunnt

TheBigBang04: julie
TheBigBang04: your
TheBigBang04: rich in the pants
TheBigBang04: dunnt
TheBigBang04: and funnt

  

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foxnesn
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7. "RE: god north carolina sucks"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

why does it suck?

  

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FireBrand
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9. "This Reverend Lovelace is not a Christian. Furthermore"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

he is an idiot. Prolly another one of them homespun back water reverends with no scholarhip on the Bible and the teachings within it.

He has no clue.





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Nettrice
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20. "It's simple"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

It is the willingness to recognize and respect the beliefs or practices of others.

Some Christians are such hypocrites or they have amnesia. They have forgotten the terrorist acts in Birmingham (and throughout the South) in the 60s, against Black children. We knew then that not all Christians were bombing Black churches and not all Christians wanted to kill Black people...Black Christians. Now, it's Christian against Muslim...or the other way around. I do not support extremists, fundamentalists, etc. because they cause or support wars rather than teach folks how to live together despite their differences.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Battousai
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23. "Game over."
In response to Reply # 20


          

--

Your San Francisco Giants: 4.26.2005 - 8.15.2005.

  

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foxnesn
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25. "RE: It's simple"
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

>It is the willingness to recognize and respect the beliefs or
>practices of others.

what if those 'practices' include killing you?

>
>Some Christians are such hypocrites or they have amnesia.
>They have forgotten the terrorist acts in Birmingham (and
>throughout the South) in the 60s, against Black children. We
>knew then that not all Christians were bombing Black churches
>and not all Christians wanted to kill Black people...Black
>Christians. Now, it's Christian against Muslim...or the other
>way around. I do not support extremists, fundamentalists,
>etc. because they cause or support wars rather than teach
>folks how to live together despite their differences.

here is the problem...people who claim to be christians and kill people based on race differences are simply not christians. christ did not teach murder. now, that arguement is used my muslims who are against the terrorists who shout allah and cite the koran when they execute innocent people. however, when they do so they quote words straight from the koran! someone please explain this to me. how can non-muslims be tolerant of this type of religion?

  

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les_fleurs
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26. "Please learn something about islam"
In response to Reply # 25
Thu May-26-05 06:20 AM by les_fleurs

          

islam doesn't encourage slaughtering people.

this is islam vs muslims

you can say you don't understand those muslims that you condem their actions. but please dont say that Islam as a religion is at fault.

please learn about Islam. Be humble enough to do that, because you will understand better. I did.

I think it's something you can do for any religion actually. There's a difference between established principles and if they're being applied properly. Visit muslims boards too because that's what they debate about 24/7.

learn

http://twitter.com/tortueturquoise

  

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FireBrand
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59. "Namean? is it so hard to learn? wow. KKK is Christian."
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

McVeigh was a christian. Skinheads are christian, The Most gruesome holocaust in earth's history was based on Christian Dogma.

I'm sure the same can be said for other religions as well.

But you can't look at folk who wanna use religion as an excuse to further their own agenda.

Are they putting themselves or Allah first- that is the question that needs to be answered. And if they are, where is their proof- where is their logic that is based on scriptural evidence?

If it's not there, it doesn't exist. If it is there? Alhumdillah, I've learned something.

But here's the thing...


It isn't there.



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Nettrice
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27. "I see no difference"
In response to Reply # 25
Thu May-26-05 09:46 AM by Nettrice

  

          

Between Christians fundamentalists/terrorists who killed Black people based on race and Muslim fundamentalists/terrorists who kill people based on culture (Western). Allah has little or nothing to do with what the Muslim fundamentalists/terrorists are about. Muhammad did not hate Christians. The Muslim fundamentalists/terrorists hate the West and anything associated with it, including Christianity. White antagonists, racists, etc. have used the Bible to justify war and power...as much as it was used to justify slavery and later segregation, Jim Crow, etc. The Bible has been used forever to promote/maintain white supremacy and privilege...just as much as the Koran and Islam has been used to justify terrorism.

It's all b.s. to me.

Fundamentalism is what happens when you pick one particular set of beliefs and decide that a) they are the ultimate answer to life, the universe, and everything and b) anyone who doesn't share buy into this belief system is the adversary and must be either converted or destroyed.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
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Thu May-26-05 12:35 PM

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31. "hold up."
In response to Reply # 27


          

so because you would like to see people "convert" over to your religion that is wrong? SINCE WHEN!? u cant compare people converting their beliefs to murdering folks for not believing that is insane.

  

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foxnesn
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35. "RE: hold up."
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

slowly exposing the double standard

  

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Nettrice
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37. "RE: hold up."
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

>slowly exposing the double standard

You did that already.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Nettrice
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36. "Huh?"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

>so because you would like to see people "convert" over to
>your religion that is wrong? SINCE WHEN!?

I don't practice any religions, anymore, so what are you referring to?

>u cant compare
>people converting their beliefs to murdering folks for not
>believing that is insane.

Ummm...clarity is needed here.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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suave_bro
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53. "*sigh*"
In response to Reply # 36


          

this is what YOU said:

"Fundamentalism is what happens when you pick one particular set of beliefs and decide that a) they are the ultimate answer to life, the universe, and everything and b) anyone who doesn't share buy into this belief system is the adversary and must be either converted or destroyed."

- look closer @ your B section. that is what i was referring to. you just lumped conversion with destroying people. by that logic malcolm "converting" black people to islam in the 60's was wrong (because he converted ALOT of folks i think we will both agree) or worse yet, equivelant to DESTROYING them!? that is insane.

  

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Nettrice
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54. "RE: *sigh*"
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

>this is what YOU said:
>
>"Fundamentalism is what happens when you pick one particular
>set of beliefs and decide that a) they are the ultimate answer
>to life, the universe, and everything and b) anyone who
>doesn't share buy into this belief system is the adversary and
>must be either converted or destroyed."
>
>- look closer @ your B section. that is what i was referring
>to. you just lumped conversion with destroying people. by that
>logic malcolm "converting" black people to islam in the 60's
>was wrong (because he converted ALOT of folks i think we will
>both agree) or worse yet, equivelant to DESTROYING them!? that
>is insane.

Fundamentalism=conversion? In some cases, yes, but I think the point is that fundamentalists believe in absolutes and that is what causes strife and suffering...and intolerance. Heck, even Jehovah's Witnesses attempt to convert people but you don't see them murdering or killing anyone who worships something different. My issue is that some fundamentalists label others as enemies and use that position to justify their acts either in war or terror. That is not tolerance.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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inVerse
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56. "you believe in absolutes too. n/m"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

.

--------- Sig----------

“Of all the dispositions and teachings of thinkers and ethicists, the one doctrine that I have no sufficient counter for is Jesus on that Cross.”

-Mhatma Gandhi

  

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Nettrice
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58. "ummm....riiight"
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

No.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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M2
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30. "A very weak argument"
In response to Reply # 25


          


The Christians did the same thing back in the 50s, 60s, or hell for the entire slavery era, they would find something within the religion or within the Bible they could use to justify slavery, or justify attacking Blacks. These people firmly believe themselves to be good Christians.

The practice continues to this day, as White Supremacist groups do that shit now, citing a passage in the Bible that to them means that the only people that matter are the ones that can visibly Blush (according to them at least).

Within the history of organized religion, there have always been people who twist religious dogma to justify crimes, that any informed person knows run contrary to the beliefs of that religion.

That's what extremists do.

If you believe that the actions of Islamic extremists are part of "mainstream" Islam, than you know nothing about the religion and are arguably rather clueless about history.

The Spanish Inquisition was carried out by Christians who believed that persecuting Jews (and others) was supported by the Bible.


That's just one example - it's pretty easy to find others, of Christians citing the bible and then committing attrocities.


Peace,












M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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foxnesn
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34. "RE: A very weak argument"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

dude, you always miss the boat. listen up...christians cannot possibly find a single word spoken by christ to justify hateful actions toward anyone. now you can point to the old testament but guess what..its old! christ brought the new covenant to his people. muslims cant make this arguement using the koran. muhammad himself spoke clearly about killing the infidel. muhammad said that he wass given the authority under god. christ would never condone hateful actions. you wont find a single verse in the new testament. but you will find in clear writing muhammad calling his people against the infidel.

  

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Nettrice
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38. "Did you even read what he wrote?"
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

>but you will find in
>clear writing muhammad calling his people against the infidel.

What writing? Post it here.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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foxnesn
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42. "RE: Did you even read what he wrote?"
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

O Beleivers! Take not the Jews or Christians as friends. They are
but one another's friends. If any one of you takes them for his
friends, he surely is one of them! 5:56

And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods
with God wherever you shall find them; and seize them, besiege them,
and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way. 9:5

Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as
believe not in God, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth. 9:29

Believers! wage war against such of the infidels as are your neighbors, and let them find you rigorous. 9:124



  

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Nettrice
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44. "RE: Did you even read what he wrote?"
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

Sura 5, Ayat 32 says:
... whoever kills a soul, not in retaliation for a soul or corruption in the land, is like one who has killed the whole of mankind; and whoever saves a life is like one who saves the lives of all mankind. Our messengers came to them with the clear proof; but afterwards many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

I know that killing is permitted under the law of "an eye for an eye" in the case of murder, or in the case of "corruption in the land."

Based on what M2 posted, what say you about this law "an eye for an eye" or "corruption of the land" in the Koran? How might this be interpreted by Muslim fundamentalists/terrorists who use it to justify their actions?

BTW - The same thing you just did can be done with Biblical scripture.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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M2
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46. "Are you in Denial?"
In response to Reply # 34


          



Modern day Christians are quoting Leviticus as evidence that Gays shouldn't marry, that there is a Gay Agenda that needs to be fought, etc.

So, obviously - the old Testament is still quite relevant to modern day christians who can easily use it to justify atrocities. In fact, it quite clearly says that you should kill "Non-believers" as well:

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;" (Deuteronomy 13: 6)

"Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people." (Deuteronomy 13:8-9)

Christians used the Bible to justify the the Spanish Inquisition, Slavery, Jim Crow and latter day White Supremacy - now you can argue that those actions don't reflect the spirit of the words in the Bible or the spirit of the religion and I agree, BUT the fact remains that people are in fact using it to justify atrocities, just like people are doing with Islam.

It's no different - Extremists use religion to justify their actions, it's not a function of any specific religion.

As for the New Testament - a quick Google Search found the following:

In the New Testament: Paul commanded: "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear." (Ephesians 6:5, a command repeated in 1 Timothy 6:1, Colossians 3:22, Titus , and 1 Peter 2:18,21.) Remember that Paul lived under the Roman Empire, whose slave system was one of the most terrible in history.

Another quote from a 3 second Google Search:

"If Christianity really repudiates the Old Testament, then why is the Old Testament still included in the Christian Holy Bible? Why do Christian priests and preachers still base entire doctrines on Old Testament Verses? Why do Christian politicians try to get the Ten Commandments posted in public places? Why do most Christians still circumcize their little boys if they don't believe in keeping the old covenant with God?"

I suppose I could spend more time engaging in Google Bible Study, but your argument that Christianity and the Bible haven't been used to justify atrocities is completely false.





Peace,











M2





The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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foxnesn
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50. "RE: Are you in Denial?"
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

where do i begin...
>
>Modern day Christians are quoting Leviticus as evidence that
>Gays shouldn't marry, that there is a Gay Agenda that needs to
>be fought, etc.

modern day christians are being misled

>So, obviously - the old Testament is still quite relevant to
>modern day christians who can easily use it to justify
>atrocities. In fact, it quite clearly says that you should
>kill "Non-believers" as well:

it is relevant to a group of people who call themselves christians but who obviously never read a single word christ said.
>
>"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy
>daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as
>thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and
>serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy
>fathers;" (Deuteronomy 13: 6)
>
>"Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him;
>neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare,
>neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill
>him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death,
>and afterwards the hand of all the people." (Deuteronomy
>13:8-9)

christ did not come to condemn man but to save him.
>
>Christians used the Bible to justify the the Spanish
>Inquisition, Slavery, Jim Crow and latter day White Supremacy
>- now you can argue that those actions don't reflect the
>spirit of the words in the Bible or the spirit of the religion
>and I agree, BUT the fact remains that people are in fact
>using it to justify atrocities, just like people are doing
>with Islam.

islam cant make the old testament excuse! the koran expressingly permit the killing of infidels. straight from muhammads mouth! christ however was sent my god with a new covenant.
>
>It's no different - Extremists use religion to justify their
>actions, it's not a function of any specific religion.

but extremists still excersise 'religion' therefore should we be tolerant of it? are you willing to admit you are not religiously tolerant?
>
>As for the New Testament - a quick Google Search found the
>following:
>
>In the New Testament: Paul commanded: "Slaves, obey your
>earthly masters with respect and fear." (Ephesians 6:5, a
>command repeated in 1 Timothy 6:1, Colossians 3:22, Titus ,
>and 1 Peter 2:18,21.) Remember that Paul lived under the Roman
>Empire, whose slave system was one of the most terrible in
>history.

so...in historical context this makes perfect sense. paul wasnt out to challenge ceasar, rather he excepted the situation and preached toward it. besides, paul was in jail when he wrote this so he was screwed beforehand by the romans.
>
>Another quote from a 3 second Google Search:
>
> "If Christianity really repudiates the Old Testament, then
>why is the Old Testament still included in the Christian Holy
>Bible? Why do Christian priests and preachers still base
>entire doctrines on Old Testament Verses? Why do Christian
>politicians try to get the Ten Commandments posted in public
>places? Why do most Christians still circumcize their little
>boys if they don't believe in keeping the old covenant with
>God?"

the old testament is included because it lays out the story of christ. it is basically the family tree of christ.
>
>I suppose I could spend more time engaging in Google Bible
>Study, but your argument that Christianity and the Bible
>haven't been used to justify atrocities is completely false.

i never said the bible hasnt been used to justify atrocities. ive said the bible has been misused to justify them.

  

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M2
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29. "Tolerance means you don't deride others beliefs"
In response to Reply # 0


          


You don't have to agree with them, you don't have to like them, but you don't deride them and/or advocate evicerating them as yours in the only way.

If you believe yours in the only way, cool - keep it to yourself.



Peace,









M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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foxnesn
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33. "RE: Tolerance means you don't deride others beliefs"
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

but what if your religion teaches to go out and make people believe what you do? then are you going to sit their and be tolerant of that viewpoint too?

  

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Nettrice
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39. "The Mission"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

>but what if your religion teaches to go out and make people
>believe what you do? then are you going to sit their and be
>tolerant of that viewpoint too?

Ummm...so what is a missionary? What did missionaries do in South America, Africa and other countries where other religions were already established?

Check out the movie The Mission...what those Christians (Jesuits) did to the native folks was criminal and murderous.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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foxnesn
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40. "RE: The Mission"
In response to Reply # 39
Thu May-26-05 02:51 PM by foxnesn

  

          

ive seen the movie. so how do you answer this question. if religion 'A' teaches to kill religion 'B' should religion 'B' be tolerant of that?

  

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Nettrice
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41. "RE: The Mission"
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

>so how do you answer this question. if
>religion 'A' teaches to kill religion 'B' should religion 'B'
>be tolerant of that?

Where are you getting that from? I requested to see the specifc info...from the Koran.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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foxnesn
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43. "RE: The Mission"
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

im not talking about the koran specifically in this instance. but think about islam. you have two groups. the extremists and the moderates. the moderates are NOT tolerant of the extremists and vice versa. so in this case what is religous tolerance?

  

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Nettrice
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45. "RE: The Mission"
In response to Reply # 43
Thu May-26-05 04:45 PM by Nettrice

  

          

>im not talking about the koran specifically in this instance.
>but think about islam. you have two groups. the extremists and
>the moderates. the moderates are NOT tolerant of the
>extremists and vice versa. so in this case what is religous
>tolerance?

The moderates want peace...both Muslims and Christians. Tolerance means a willingness to recognize and respect the beliefs or practices of others. This does not mean trying to convert or mislead anyone. I was raised Christian and mentored by Muslims. I do not belong to either religion by choice but I am accepted, regardless. The minute I try to harm any of these people (or cause other's suffering) I will not be tolerated. That's natural. However, to go to one extreme, say "We must kill Muslims (or Christians) because Islam (Christianity) is evil" is to support war and war is the opposite of peace.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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foxnesn
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49. "RE: The Mission"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

ok, so you are not tolerant of religions that are extreme in the sense that they want to harm groups of people. but arent we supposed to be religously tolerant? isnt tolerance relative? surely you cant oppress your view of religous tolerance on someone without being called a hypocrit!

  

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Nettrice
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52. "Wha?"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

>ok, so you are not tolerant of religions that are extreme in
>the sense that they want to harm groups of people. but arent
>we supposed to be religously tolerant? isnt tolerance
>relative? surely you cant oppress your view of religous
>tolerance on someone without being called a hypocrit!

"The moderates want peace...both Muslims and Christians." <--This is from me.

"you are not tolerant of religions that are extreme in the sense" <--From you.

Stop trying to put words or ideas that are not mine in my "mouth", so to speak. Neither religion is about harming people. I think there are plenty of examples in this thread that show how both Christianity and Islam have been used by fundamentalists/antagonists to justify their positions. Islam is not about harming people. Some Muslims are...but that does not mean that you (or anyone else) can prove that ALL Muslims seek to harm others. This just is not true. That they are allowed to preach their rhetoric (along with Christian fundamentalists) shows religious tolerance. Tolerance is that they/we are allowed to fit under the same umbrella...as humans.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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M2
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47. "It's called we live in America"
In response to Reply # 33


          


You can tell me about your religion, but you can't force me to follow it.

The conservative "tolerance" discussion is always seeking to find a loophole to more or less force the nation to be Christian, well if you believe in Religious freedom, you don't have the right to do that.


You can't claim a free America and than add small print that says "Well only if you fall into certain demograpahic groups"




Peace,









M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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foxnesn
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51. "RE: It's called we live in America"
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

>
>You can tell me about your religion, but you can't force me to
>follow it.
>
>The conservative "tolerance" discussion is always seeking to
>find a loophole to more or less force the nation to be
>Christian, well if you believe in Religious freedom, you don't
>have the right to do that.
>
>
>You can't claim a free America and than add small print that
>says "Well only if you fall into certain demograpahic groups"

but that is EXACTLY what we do! by filtering out the extreme religions based on a set of social values that WE HOLD we alienate religious sects! we are forcing others to follow moral values directly attributed to religous beliefs!!!! it is impossible to be religously tolerant!!!!!!!

  

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RexLongfellow
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48. "RE: what is religious tolerance?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Nobody should have to be tolerant when their life is on the line

Tolerance is accepting that there's no such thing as a "primary" religion, and that other people might think differently in terms of religion.

The problem is that anyone in ANY religion can try to twist up religious scriptures to justify murder. Just because people can accept differences doesn't give people the right to use differences to oppress others that don't believe in the same thing...that's INtolerance

Abdul Jabbar, Muggsy Malone you
I don't know what that means but you know what I meant when I told you (c) Sean Price

  

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HiKwelity
Member since Sep 24th 2002
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Fri May-27-05 03:26 PM

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55. "OK"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


>"I believe that it is a statement supporting the word of God
>and that it (the Bible) is above all and that any other
>religious book that does not teach Christ as savior and lord
>as the 66 books of the Bible teaches it, is wrong," said
>Lovelace. "I knew that whenever we decided to put that sign up
>that there would be people who wouldn't agree with it, and
>there would be some that would, and so we just have to stand
>up for what's right."


>"Our creed as a Christian, or a Protestant, or a Baptist
>church -- of course we don't have a creed but the bible -- but
>we do have the Baptist faith and message that says that we
>should cling to the 66 books of the Holy Bible and any other
>book outside of that claiming to know the way of God or
>claiming to be God's word is automatically written off and is
>trying to defeat people from the way of true righteousness
>inside of our viewpoint in how we view the word of God,"
>Lovelace said.
>



So what's wrong with being content that you got the right book? It is entirely possible to believe that the Bible is the true way to know God and that other books are wrong without belittling people who do not believe the same thing. I'm saying, if you got it right, shouldn't you be happy? Why go after others?

  

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FireBrand
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57. "Because you don't love your neighbor. n/m"
In response to Reply # 55


  

          


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