Don't blame Bush.

Insofar as their isn't a draft blame the troops - they're the ones physically pulling the trigger.

Why are they doing it?

They want an "education" ?

If your willing to kill and possibly be killed for oil in exchange for a potential "education" - then go ahead.

Bush isn't physically hurting anyone - he's just kicking back and having a drink .....and riding the wave of ignorance and empire.











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MKLVFKWR (Public Enemy) Dick Cheney Orchestrated 9/11 remixx....

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>Why are they doing it?

They're doing what they singed up to do, they're honoring their word, if nothing else.

>They want an "education" ?

Some do, some are doing it for the money or other reasons. I don't know, some might believe in what they're doing.

>If your willing to kill and possibly be killed for oil in
>exchange for a potential "education" - then go ahead.

If this war is for oil, then why hasn't the price of gas gone down? Where's all the free oil we're supposed to be getting?

----------------------------
"What shall we do with the negro?" I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us...if the negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall - Frederick Douglass

>If this war is for oil, then why hasn't the price of gas gone
>down? Where's all the free oil we're supposed to be getting?

cosign

>If this war is for oil, then why hasn't the price of gas gone
>down? Where's all the free oil we're supposed to be getting?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5233061-103680,00.html

I don't know if i've ever read one article with this many unsubstantiated fact in my life.

On top of that, my question was never answered: With all this extra oil we're supposedly taking, why hasn't the price dropped?

-----------------------
"What shall we do with the negro?" I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us...if the negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall - Frederick Douglass

"Haliburton, the US engineering giant formerly headed by vice-president Dick Cheney." - Guardian, February 6, 2005

"Since the Iraq war, when the Houston company won contracts to put out oil fires in Iraq without having to bid against competitors, it has been synonymous with White House cronyism." - Guardian, February 6, 2005

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,,1406721,00.html

Haliburton and other U.S. connected interests are makin' a stone cold killin'!! Period. They control the oil from ground to pump, with little to no competition, J.D. Rockefeller style.

It's funny to me how we were sold that a side benefit (not a direct benefit) was goin' to be that we would have access to more oil; thus, the price of energy (gasoline, in particular) would decrease.

Now that that obviously hasn't happened, America is back to its same old tricks; when something goes wrong in America, blame some group of foreigners. "It's the Chinese; they are driving more cars and therefore, driving up the cost of oil." Never, it's Haliburton or other greedy, U.S. interests, who are making madd loot, hand over fist.

If you believe that it's the Chinese who are responsible for the high gas prices, answer me this: why is it that the Chinese all of a sudden got the urge to drive more cars after the U.S. took over Iraq?

<<<<"Nothings more attractive than a heavy praying woman" © Andre 3000

People who make decisions at companies like haliburton look at people like you as oblivious children that project all your problems and complain without looking in the mirror. Why blame Haliburton? People want oil and they need an organizational structure that allows it to be dug up and distributed.

companies like Haliburton provide that service for people like you.

And obviously its of high value or the abillity to rake in the dough wouldn't exist.


anyway - you could argue its the U.S. citizen that are driving up the cost.

5 percent of the world population consumes 30 percent of the worlds resources. - and the only time there is meaningful dissent is when the
hipocrisy of it all is crammed in peoples face.














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making excuses for the rapist.

<<<<"Nothings more attractive than a heavy praying woman" © Andre 3000

im not making excuses for anybody....in fact its the oposite.Im confronting other peoples excuses.
I don't support Bush, these policies or the war if thats what your trying to imply.

But even if he were thrown out of office tomorrow - there will still be war....






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MKLVFKWR (Public Enemy) Dick Cheney Orchestrated 9/11 remixx....

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>I don't support Bush, these policies or the war if thats what
>your trying to imply.
>
Do you support paying $3.00+ a gallon for gas? Sounds like you are making excuses for the power elite to take advantage of common, everyday people, many of whom were sold a bill of goods, which had them believing that an indirect benefit of this war would be cheaper oil/gas/energy prices.

>
>
>
>
>
>
>Download the New MP3 :
>
>MKLVFKWR (Public Enemy) Dick Cheney Orchestrated 9/11
>remixx....
>
>www.pharmacizt.info/MKLVFKWR%20pharmacizt%20rmx.mp3

<<<<"Nothings more attractive than a heavy praying woman" © Andre 3000

"do you support paying $3.00+ a gallon for gas? Sounds like you are making excuses for the power elite to take advantage of common, everyday people, many of whom were sold a bill of goods, which had them believing that an indirect benefit of this war would be cheaper oil/gas/energy prices"




no , I realise how niave and ignorant people can be....and that most people that sign up don't "know the game" so Im laying out on the table what people like Bush say behind closed doors .


as far as gas prices go read about the politics of the oil crisis... the best work is at

www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net www.fromthewilderness.com and peakoil.com

after you do the work and understand the scope of the situation we can have a discussion.....but im not going to baby step you through it.

on a global scale the average U.S. citizen IS the "power elite" - they just arn't self-actualized enough to realise it.

5% of the wolrds population that consumes 30 percent of the worlds resources.


another thing ... $3 a gallon gas actually isn't that expensive....its just that we've been living so privleged that it SEEMS like its expensive. The entire "car" culture way of life is a privlege - it isn't a "right".

last thing - lets assume that cheap oil WAS a result of the war - what evil fuck would support it regardless?

are you English/British?
>
>
>no , I realise how niave and ignorant people can be....and
>that most people that sign up don't "know the game" so Im
>laying out on the table what people like Bush say behind
>closed doors .

OK.

>
>
>as far as gas prices go read about the politics of the oil
>crisis... the best work is at
>
>www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net www.fromthewilderness.com and
>peakoil.com

These articles are nice and impressive and all with their flowery, academic explanation of why oil prices have increased. They almost remind me of many of the articles that came out that were declaring that Saddam Hussein had all these weapons of mass destruction. Some of those articles were also very impressive with their academic explanations, sometimes laced with scientific jargon.

But lies are lies even when they are written with academic language and/or impressive scientfic jargon.



>
>after you do the work and understand the scope of the
>situation we can have a discussion

If we can not have a discussion, it is not because I have not done the work, it is because your common sense mechanism has broken down. Repair or replace your common sense mechanism and then maybe we can have a sensical discussion.


.....but im not going to
>baby step you through it.

How can you baby step me, when you're still crawling?


>
>on a global scale the average U.S. citizen IS the "power
>elite" - they just arn't self-actualized enough to realise it.
>
>
Their is SOME Truth in the above statement.



>5% of the wolrds population that consumes 30 percent of the
>worlds resources.
>
>
>another thing ... $3 a gallon gas actually isn't that
>expensive....its just that we've been living so privleged that
>it SEEMS like its expensive. The entire "car" culture way of
>life is a privlege - it isn't a "right".
>

Whatever; whether $3.00/gallon is considered "expensive" or not was not my point. My point was that one of the indirect benefits of goin' to war was that we, as ordinary, everyday, common citizens of the U.S., would end up with cheaper oil/gas. That ain't happened; gas prices have damn near doubled, instead of becoming cheaper.

If you want to make excuses for the greed of Haliburton and others, that's your business. But don't try to make it seem like they are doing me some type of a favor by almost doubling the price of gas in 2 years, when we were led to believe that it would be cheaper.


>last thing - lets assume that cheap oil WAS a result of the
>war - what evil fuck would support it regardless?

I'm not in support of this illegitmate war; I'm just pointing out where these bastards lied to/misled us again.

<<<<"Nothings more attractive than a heavy praying woman" © Andre 3000

"These articles are nice and impressive and all with their flowery, academic explanation of why oil prices have increased. They almost remind me of many of the articles that came out that were declaring that Saddam Hussein had all these weapons of mass destruction. Some of those articles were also very impressive with their academic explanations, sometimes laced with scientific jargon.

But lies are lies even when they are written with academic language and/or impressive scientfic jargon."





did you even read any of those sites I posted?










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I read half of the Oil Crash site.

The second link had a lot of articles posted, but I didn't see any that were related to oil/gas prices.

I was speaking to the whole bell curve explanation and how the reason prices have suddenly escalated is due to the all of a sudden, running scarcity of oil.

To throw around these fancy explanations, without bringing up the fact that the underlying factor, driving gas prices up is GREED, plain and simple.

I am not anti-intellectual; I appreciate reasonable, sound and educated explanations of things; but not when I know it is to cover up some Bullshit!! Then the reasonable, sound and eductated explanations become rationalizations.

Why is it that, all of a sudden after the U.S. invaded Iraq, there becomes a great oil shortage?

<<<<"Nothings more attractive than a heavy praying woman" © Andre 3000

There is a psychological mechanism whereby you want somthing , and you know in order to get it you are going to have to do somthing that you know is "wrong - but you want it becasue its in your interest - so you go ahead and do it and then make up a rational explanation for why it was the reasonable thing to do.



The "greed" part is the fact that we've been consuming and living way above our means for all these years. Demand from the average citizen for ultra cheap oil embodies this psychological phenomena just as much as any corporation's drive for profits........ The whole rail system in the U.S. was destroyed via conspiracy by general motors , standard oil and firstone to create artificial demand for cars...
so what happened? once the car culture took- off ..... people didn't ( and don't ) fight it because the constituency that has amassed is strong enough to beat back any desire to have the type of mass transit that would be more benifical to the enviorment and benificial to a more localised way of life...

easy energy has magnified the whole spectrum of human nature ...from feeding and diseminating medicines all over the world to building nuclear bombs and large scale warfare.


so if you want to get into rationalizations - you might want to start by looking in the mirror. If your want the system to recede - the entire spectrum has to go.

you can blame Bush or haliburton or the troops or whoever all you want - and i'm not saying that it isn't waranted - because to a large degree it is ..... but its more complicated..






HTTP://WWW.FLASHBACKCULTURE.COM

oil/gas prices have risen so quickly since the U.S. took over Iraq? Do you see any dircet connection btw the U.S. takeover of Iraq and the placement of U.S. corporate interests in that country and the sudden hike in energy prices? Do you believe that prices would've climbed this fast if Hussein was still running Iraq?

I can agree with you that the U.S. is an over-consumer of oil, and I believe that this is a driving force behind the rise in gas prices, but for a different reason. I believe the fact that the U.S. is an over-consumer of energy is the reason that the greedy corporate raise the price on it because they know that they can and we will still buy it; not because of some damn shortage that is looming right around the corner.

<<<<"Nothings more attractive than a heavy praying woman" © Andre 3000

"I believe the fact that the U.S. is an over-consumer of energy is the reason that the greedy corporate raise the price on it because they know that they can and we will still buy it; not because of some damn shortage that is looming right around the corner."


I disagree.

I believe the fact that the U.S. is an over-consumer of energy is the reason that the greedy corporate raise the price on it because they know that they can and we will still buy it AND because of the coming global shortage.


So in other words - I think we're both right.

that money @ some point

then it just dropped...

i'm trying to read that in its entirety but i keep getting distracted....

~~~~
~*~40 yrs. 6 days.~*~

"The world was warned about this...The CIA calls what happened in London today "blowback." It is wrong, it is heinous, it is murder plain and simple, and it was as predictable as the sun rising in the East." ~Wm Rivers Pitt

At least not in the short run. It's was about Subjecting China and Russia to OUR terms. That's not gonna happen. We needed it to happen to supplement our Economy.

Too late. I think...but I could be wrong- I aint no expert.

But they are still fighting the "good" fight. they can still get Russia trapped perhaps.


www.northernarc.net
www.sohlcollective.com
www.djvariable.net
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www.cyancemusic.com

>It is for oil, but not for reasonable prices for the consumers.

You're exactly right, it's Bush Senior's old homies who are getting the paper.


"If it don't make dollars, it don't make sense." -DJ Quik

Believe in what they are doing?
As in Caveman thoughts? Sure.

AllHiphop.com
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Wardolphin.com
Afropunk.com
Bling47.com
Fader.com



Who's fucking wit B More right now?

"Freedom is a Lie" - the animals

these dudes fighting are just test crash dummies to the administration. study the history of wars and conflict concerning the u.s..

www.hiphopmusic.com

"What I don't like is Negro elders finally taking a stand for cultural ethics by way of Caucasian vomit. What this now shows young people is that white guilt is still more powerful than black unity." - Star

www.northernarc.net
www.sohlcollective.com
www.djvariable.net
www.collectiveeffortsmusic.com
www.cyancemusic.com

~~~~
~*~40 yrs. 6 days.~*~

"The world was warned about this...The CIA calls what happened in London today "blowback." It is wrong, it is heinous, it is murder plain and simple, and it was as predictable as the sun rising in the East." ~Wm Rivers Pitt

and also, there's not a single soldier with the power to say "let's go to war w/country X", but an administration can and did...so the question seem misguided at best.

If you are gonna take that faulty line of reasoning...come on man, u betta than that.

This is AMERICAN policy. Anyone blaming Bush alone is just unaware. Clinton woulda done the same thing had he the political capital. Remember, the REPUBLICANS got him to stop the Iraqi bombing runs that woulda prompted action from Hussein so we could send troops in and declare war.

This is an Energy strategy that has been in place for DECADES. The buck don't stop at Bush. He just smart/evil enough to profit from it.




www.northernarc.net
www.sohlcollective.com
www.djvariable.net
www.collectiveeffortsmusic.com
www.cyancemusic.com

I don't phisically kill people.

a piece of paper doesn't kill people either.

and pulling the trigger. I'm sure there are PLENTY of soldiers against the war out there fighting just like it's taxpayers agasint the war BUYING MORE oil


www.northernarc.net
www.sohlcollective.com
www.djvariable.net
www.collectiveeffortsmusic.com
www.cyancemusic.com

no - theres a big difference.

If I gave you $50 and YOU decided to go get a gun and shoot somebody...there is a difference between THAT and me actually grabbing a gun myself and killing someone.

there IS a HUGE difference.



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i'm *seriously* considering looking into ceasing some of my tax payment.

~~~~
~*~40 yrs. 6 days.~*~

"The world was warned about this...The CIA calls what happened in London today "blowback." It is wrong, it is heinous, it is murder plain and simple, and it was as predictable as the sun rising in the East." ~Wm Rivers Pitt

Hmmm. Your comment was interesting. As for blaming the troops I do not totally agree with. Sure the troops are over there phusically and mentally engaged in war. Many of them for example believe that they are doing their part in order to protect their country (i don't).

Yet you should ask urself, how many people actually knew before the 911 days that a war was brewing? The troops very often come from military families and in case you did not notice many come from families of lower socio economic status. So while you and I can say "an education???...it's not worth it" others can not. No one who has not been in war can possibly anticipate the atrocities that some one there can attest. It is totally unfair to blame them, when often many of the troops had no idea what they were getting themselves into. And since the days of slavery, an education has been- to die for.
Just because you and I can make an educated and rational decision to do otherwise we can't fault the troops or their decisions 100 PERCENT and it is also important to note that if the troops were not doing there willingly, other more drastic measures would have to be taken

_____________________________________
Facts Lost © David Byrne

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this line of reasoning is idiotic anyways.

like firebrand said, its all economic. its a strategic war to gain another market in the global economy. put pressure on other countries dependent upon the exports of our new puppet government.

What exactly are you adding to this post telling me I'm not adding anything to this post? HUH

if I told you to go jump off a fucking cliff would you do it?




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>if I told you to go jump off a fucking cliff would you do it?


If he was legally obligated with pain of jail for a long time... probably.

Sean | The fall might not kill him

Okay, genius...
You obviously are prepared to give jobs to the 100,000's of thousands of young men and women who serve in the armed forces.
You are prepared to feed their families, pay their bills and secure their children's futures.

So easy to say when you sittin on your ass at home in front of a fuckin computer.

What the fuck.... * I'm wastin' keystrokes on this dork.

It's all love though.....
like my sig.

LOVE

It's to get the US 'control' of crude oil. Oil that's easy to get. Problem is, the world is quickly running out of easy oil, so the harder it is to obtain, the higher the prices. That Alaskan oil is just as hard to get, that's why we avoided it, now it my be our only resource.


You can swim in the Sea of Knowledge and still come out dry.

"Okay, genius...
You obviously are prepared to give jobs to the 100,000's of thousands of young men and women who serve in the armed forces.
You are prepared to feed their families, pay their bills and secure their children's futures."


If sombody is willing to murder and risk their own life for the POSSIBILLITY of achieving those ends - then go right ahead ... it doesn't mean I have to give a shit.

BTW - YOU sit in front of a computer and come up with excuses for death - at least im willing to confront the obvious reality.

The obvious reality is that insofar is there isn't a draft the troops are the ones pulling the trigger and killing people. Bush isn't killing people - he's letting the people on the battlefield BELIEVE whatever they want with regards to "patriotism" and "democracy" or whatever..... things that any person that takes the time to think about knows are a crock of shit.

as far as people not having ANY alternatives to the millitary - for some thats absolutley true - and for those few individuals everything i've said is an exception... but the hard empirical reality is U.S. citizens live in the wealthiest nation in the history of human kind ...most people COULD find another path - they simply don't want to. They want to "do their time" and have an easy route to the "american dream".

they are willing to sacrifice potential loss of life (even their own ) for the potential class status that comes with getting out of the millitary alive.






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>If sombody is willing to murder and risk their own life for
>the POSSIBILLITY of achieving those ends - then go right ahead
>... it doesn't mean I have to give a shit.

Right... and apparently America gives a shit about them too, right??


>BTW - YOU sit in front of a computer and come up with excuses
>for death - at least im willing to confront the obvious
>reality.

This is the reason.... not an excuse. You tried to find a job lately?? My Brother joined the Army in 2003 because he could not get his shit together otherwise... Hard out here for a P!mp.

>The obvious reality is that insofar is there isn't a draft the
>troops are the ones pulling the trigger and killing people.
>Bush isn't killing people - he's letting the people on the
>battlefield BELIEVE whatever they want with regards to
>"patriotism" and "democracy" or whatever..... things that any
>person that takes the time to think about knows are a crock of
>shit.

Are you like, thirteen or something? Look, the military is a job. Bush is the boss. You don't follow orders, a TEAM of Bush's subordinates ass is on the line, as well as the lives of your battalion, Kids whom you come to know and love as Brothers and Sisters. You'd let your Brother die for Morals, right>>>?


>as far as people not having ANY alternatives to the millitary
>- for some thats absolutley true - and for those few
>individuals everything i've said is an exception... but the
>hard empirical reality is U.S. citizens live in the wealthiest
>nation in the history of human kind ...most people COULD find
>another path - they simply don't want to. They want to "do
>their time" and have an easy route to the "american dream".

As I stated earlier, unless you got the answer >>>Shut*Da*Fuck*Up!!(Black Bush/Chappelle). Being in the Military in no way, shape, or form guarantees you the 'American Dream'. 3 Meals, a place to eat, discipline, and money for College. Nothing more, nothing less.


>they are willing to sacrifice potential loss of life (even
>their own ) for the potential class status that comes with
>getting out of the millitary alive.

Yeah Cuz...... Its that hard out here for a Pimp.

Try supporting your fellow Americans that are dying everyday.
Try sympathyzing with Iraqi young men, who are dying everyday, training to be Policemen, so their children can walk the streets safely.
Try understanding how having your life threatened everyday, and having your car blown up with your ass in it by someone who doesn't want laws, a Constitution, or organized government.
Try considering that the Terrorists are desperate enough to think God wants them and YOU.... the INFIDEL.... To Die.
Then go out, buy a "Support Our Troops" magnet, and stick it to your forehead... Because you obviously have a metal plate in your skull.\


Word.

LOVE

>Are you like, thirteen or something? Look, the military is a
>job. Bush is the boss. You don't follow orders, a TEAM of
>Bush's subordinates ass is on the line, as well as the lives
>of your battalion, Kids whom you come to know and love as
>Brothers and Sisters. You'd let your Brother die for Morals,
>right>>>?

(and i don't agree w/ this whole thing, but i understand it, to a degree)

the military sort of breaks u down and builds you back up with a group mentality.

a lot of them over there know this is bullshit. they're the ones assed out 'cause rummy & 'nem don't know what the fuck they're doing.

but a lot of them are fighting for their squads/battalions/etc more than they're fighting for "america". sad but true.

if you can't believe in your "cause", you're still gonna believe, at the least, in your commanding officer and your buddy down there in the trenches with you.


~~~~
~*~40 yrs. 6 days.~*~

"The world was warned about this...The CIA calls what happened in London today "blowback." It is wrong, it is heinous, it is murder plain and simple, and it was as predictable as the sun rising in the East." ~Wm Rivers Pitt

"Being in the Military in no way, shape, or form guarantees you the 'American Dream'. 3 Meals, a place to eat, discipline, and money for College. Nothing more, nothing less."


so what your basically saying is that the constituency that makes up the millitary is basically comprised of people that otherwise would not know how to get 3 meals a day , a roof over there head or an education.


I just can't bring myself to believe that.

if your brave enough to kill and be killed and brave enough to learn to survive in a warzone by drinking your own urine - I think your brave enough to figure out an alternative.

it isn't difficult - you just have to want it bad enough and not be afraid to confront your fear.







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being naive, if they actually ever trusted their commander in chief to send them to fight only when "it's absolutely necessary"

people don't fight wars because their necissary - they fight wars for power and control. The war is necissary - its necissary for a healthy economy.






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Necessary.

Now put up your Legos, and drink your chocolate milk.

LOVE

how about you prove me wrong.

>people don't fight wars because their necissary - they fight
>wars for power and control. The war is necissary - its
>necissary for a healthy economy.

- I fail to see how WWII, the war of Algerian independence, and other conflicts were done for reasons of power and control.

Is this a joke? I think the cause of most conflict is power and control.

"You say we're headed to war in Iraq. I don't know why you say that. I hope we're not headed to war in Iraq. I'm the person who gets to decide – not you." -George W. Bush

"The Army is no place for a Black man" -Lawrence Fishburne

those ppl have families and things like that...

no one wants to get court martialed.

more importantly, sometimes folks other than the soldiers themselves have to live off those benefits.

i mean, on one level i do agree with you: it's sad that the 80-90% of those guys/girls who went in only did it to (a) travel, (b) go to school, (c) have a job, or (d) some combination of the 3.

i hate this thing as much as i'm sure you do, and my idea of "supporting" the troops is getting them the hell out of there before any more young lives/spirits are damaged.

but i blame the bullshit administration who got us into this mess FAR more than i blame them. recruiters lie. and who expected us to go into anything resembling a war??!??

i might have a little to say to the parents who encouraged and/or allowed the military to be a clearly viable option. but a lot of these folks dying--at least from what i've seen so far--are college-aged. the same age that a lot of the suicide bombers are when they start thinking about "martyrdom". that says a great deal.

you also have to understand where a lot of those kids come from, too. what else were they going to do with their lives?

there's a lot more to it than where the "blame" falls.

>there's a lot more to it than where the "blame" falls.

That's the statement we're looking for.

Let's blame humanity, for coming up with this bullshit millenia ago.

And the cycle will repeat itself.

LOVE

I don't "blame" anyone completely - im just saying.
The hard reality is that nobody is forcing anyone into the millitary .. and if most those people wanted to find another route - they could. They just buy into the hype. If I walked up to you and said - "hey , you should get a gun and mabe go shoot sombody for three meals a day and an education" - you would look at me like I was insane -

whats the difference?




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MKLVFKWR (Public Enemy) Dick Cheney Orchestrated 9/11 remixx....

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that our country should have no military whatsoever?

Just trying to grasp your position here.

________________________________________

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.

-- Bertrand Russell

I believe the millitary is a fucking scam for the weapons industry.

yes or no?

Do you believe that this country (or any country, for that matter) should maintain military forces?

________________________________________

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.

-- Bertrand Russell

whatever your setting me up for why don't you just cut to the fucken chase.



Download the New MP3 :

MKLVFKWR (Public Enemy) Dick Cheney Orchestrated 9/11 remixx....

www.pharmacizt.info/MKLVFKWR%20pharmacizt%20rmx.mp3

I mean, it seems like the only other position you could take is a flowery, pacifistic one, where all the nations in the world get along just fine without any need for all of this violence and stuff.

And I guess my point is that if you do acknowledge that a sovereign country has to maintain military forces to defend itself, then don't there need to be people who sign up to be in that military?

And there has to be a command structure for that military, right? People who tell the soldiers what to do, generals, a defense secretary, etc. If that structure wasn't in place, the military would be in chaos.

And that structure includes a commander-in-chief, who ultimately has power over what the country's military does, right?

I'm rambling here, but I just can't see how you could acknowledge the need for a military, and then blame the soldiers for doing what they're told to do.

What kind of sense does that make?

________________________________________

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.

-- Bertrand Russell

I could take the position that the U.S. does need a millitary - so that the part of the population that "matters" can reap the benifits of war without getting their hands dirty.






Download the New MP3 :

MKLVFKWR (Public Enemy) Dick Cheney Orchestrated 9/11 remixx....

www.pharmacizt.info/MKLVFKWR%20pharmacizt%20rmx.mp3

What about the rest of us?

If those sinister forces weren't around, then we'd have no need for an army?

Do you really believe that?

Edit: also, you now seem to be placing responsibility on the people controlling the military, not the soldiers. Have you given up on your initial view?

________________________________________

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.

-- Bertrand Russell

no I did answer it - it just wasn't the answer your looking for.




Download the New MP3 :

MKLVFKWR (Public Enemy) Dick Cheney Orchestrated 9/11 remixx....

www.pharmacizt.info/MKLVFKWR%20pharmacizt%20rmx.mp3

You're either being deliberately bone-headed or you're just an idiot.

You didn't answer my question -- and if you seriously do believe that the troops, rather than Bush, are to blame, then you're definitely just an idiot.

________________________________________

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.

-- Bertrand Russell

your the one editing out your posts so you don't look like an "idiot."






Download the New MP3 :

MKLVFKWR (Public Enemy) Dick Cheney Orchestrated 9/11 remixx....

www.pharmacizt.info/MKLVFKWR%20pharmacizt%20rmx.mp3

>your the one

is that a lot of these kids come from areas/towns hit by lack of jobs, opportunity, etc.

places where you used to be able to work (for example) at a factory for a few years, get a pension, retire, and get your kids a decent life/college education/etc. that is a quickly disappearing trend.

many of these kids aren't from new york city. or philly. or los angeles. they're from little teeny towns where walmart's taken over and it's either work there or go into the military. period.

even the ones we've lost who are from maryland aren't from, say, baltimore or even columbia. they're from some little spot on the map in the eastern shore i've never heard of.

college recruiters don't come to their towns.
but military recruiters sure as hell do.

yes, everyone has choices. but all those choices aren't as clear everyone in every situation.


~~~~
~*~40 yrs. 6 days.~*~

"The world was warned about this...The CIA calls what happened in London today "blowback." It is wrong, it is heinous, it is murder plain and simple, and it was as predictable as the sun rising in the East." ~Wm Rivers Pitt

no , I do understand that.

and if they want to go that route thats their choice.

im just laying out the hard truth without all the icing ... if more people did that I think there would be a broader base of clear seeing people and these phony wars wouldn't have the consituency needed to get off the ground in the first place.

The only time people get hit with the reality is when the body bags come home.

you live and you die .. and your life is the only thing of any value in this world...









Download the New MP3 :

MKLVFKWR (Public Enemy) Dick Cheney Orchestrated 9/11 remixx....

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>im just laying out the hard truth without all the icing ... if
>more people did that I think there would be a broader base of
>clear seeing people and these phony wars wouldn't have the
>consituency needed to get off the ground in the first place.

i think you're right; this bullshit never should have flown. especially with the numbers of people in this country who remember vietnam.

but....that's good ol american shortsightedness for you.

*sigh* where do i begin....there is just sooo much to this....

>I believe in the power of CHOICE. We can say 'oh but if I
>don't go, i might be court martialled', but in the grand
>scheme of things, nobody can MAKE u do something u are dead
>against. Suppose u had principles that u live by no matter
>what, and one of those principles was that it is UNJUST to
>take a life, it is unjust to threaten someone's life or to
>attack a person who did nothing to *you*, u could then
>*choose* to absolutely stand against that bullshit. I would
>rather be punished for doing something I know in my heart is
>right, than have to sleep at night knowing there is blood on
>my hands.

yeah...but then if you're that kind of person, you're also probably the type who'd never sign up for the military. or think some things out before you went into the rotc in high school.

to use that example, most ppl i know who went the rotc route ONLY did it because they knew there wasn't much else in the option of furthering their education otherwise. not 'cause they were in love with america.

if you're already forced to work/help out your fam in high school, you may not have time to fill out/search for grant/scholarship applications etc. guidance counselors are usually only a help in the best high schools, and if no one else in your fam has even seen the inside of a college classroom....

it ain't easy getting "ahead" here...not for rural and/or poor urban kids.


>If we really had convictions in the matter of humanity, the
>threat of being courtmartialled wouldnt mean shit because
>honestly, there is nothing in the world I can think of that
>would make me go and fight and kill in the name of Western
>global domination. Absolutely nothing in this world. I'd be a
>conscientious objector.

i understand what you're saying. but that things like "western global domination" are indicative of a mentality that most americans never even recognize as being a factor.

they think: i need to provide for my family. i need to do something with my life other than rot away in this small town/blighted city. and that's it.

most of these kids didn't go into the military thinking about killing. it was about a job, getting to see the world on unc sam's dime, and maybe making a life for themselves afterwards. boot camp was just a bump in the road.


>I mean what good are 'benefits' (which mean *nothing* in the
>grand scheme of things) when you have had to go out and
>participate in a war...just so u can have these...perks?

when you live in a society with no universal healthcare and one medical emergency/death in the family can force you to declare bankruptcy (which, by the way, is getting harder to do)....

benefits are few and far between. even for the employed.

it's not even about "perks" so much as it is being able to eke out some kind of future.

we'd almost be better off doing something like sweden and/or israel and training EVERYONE in military service for a couple of years between 18-24 or so and then you can choose to continue or go about your life vs. making it some kind of economic entrapment/extortion racket. instead of forced conscription, we have a sort of socioeconomic draft. and always have. look at the history of the irish in the civil war. blks on the front line in vietnam. it's BEEN fucked up.


>u can't create peace and fulfillment if u had to play dirty to
>get it. u cant create love our of war. So I definitely don't
>glamorize or admire ppl who go to war either by choice or thru
>some notion of 'force'. I don't even think I could pat such a
>person on the back and be like 'good for you', when they did
>this so they could A) get to travel B) go to school, C) have a
>job D) have all 3. It actually makes me feel a bit sick to
>think someone would potentially go and kill innocent (or not
>so innocent) people for those reasons.

i can understand that.

but again, you'd have to understand something about the mentality that the military fosters in ppl. they break you down. literally.

you don't come out seeing (fill in the blank) as "innocent". whoever your c.o. says is the enemy is the enemy. questioning that could cost you and your unit your lives.

period.

99.9% of those who cannot conform to that standard are weeded out long before they reach anyone's battlefield.


>Of course, my heart lies with the innocents, not the
>warmongers...and in a global context, i tend to side with the
>people of color who are being oppressed, NOT the West and its
>need to dominate at all costs, but I feel you on this:

and i agree with you.


>*nodding* Yep. recruiters do lie, but again we have the power
>of choice. If a person chooses unwisely in such a way that
>they can be *duped* into fighting in an unjust war, I don't
>think the blame should be solely or even MOSTLY put on the
>admin. Surely ppl cant be that naive or easilyswayed.

ha. yeah i used to say the same...
americans are gullible because they're isolated.

we don't speak multiple languages
we don't travel.
"high culture" (art, good music, etc) is, generally, seen as academic and elitist.

we're the best. period. no need to go anywhere else.
these are the attitudes that, in the long run, make us so reluctant to open our eyes to what is before us.

it's sad and it's sick. but i haven't yet figured out (or come across someone who has) how we can heal from this except to (a) lose our position as a world power or (b) time (america is, historically speaking, a rowdy teenager)


>I mean I
>think a LOT of black folks fighting in this war now must have
>told themselves *something* to make it alright with
>themselves...some of them must believe what they are doing is
>a good thing...rahrah America and all that. That is their
>choice.

they're feeding their fam
they're not in prison
they're not hustling

i think that's what a lot of blk military tell themselves.

i know for a fact that my cousin and my godson's godfather went in because they didn't have anything else to do. college wasn't for them, they were just stagnating here...the military seemed a decent alternative.

fortunately, my cousin won't be going because of the highly specialized nature of his work here.

unfortunately, my godson's godfather is still over there. he's got a wife & two small children stuck in germany, alone, waiting for him to get back.


>Hmmm. I mean there are PLENTY o things a person can do with
>their lives so they can have A, B, C or D without choosing
>THIS fuckedup option. If this is the best possible thing folks
>can come up with to create a life with prospects, its a very
>messed up society we live in. My babies will not be fighting
>for white power. Believe that.

mine either.
and it is messed up.


>i feel u tho. I guess we have to at least TRY to be
>compassionate to all parties, including the warmongers. I
>suppose they are just ordinary ppl trying to get ahead. Its
>just...at whose expense will they get ahead?

yeah...it's fucked up.

my father is a vietnam vet who basically went into the military to escape a fucked up home situation. came back with more mental & physical issues than u can shake a stick at.

my maternal grandfather went in with the hopes of showing the "whitefolks" that blk men could defend their country and wound up spending the war stuck in guam.

it's really fucked up.


~~~~
~*~40 yrs. 6 days.~*~

"The world was warned about this...The CIA calls what happened in London today "blowback." It is wrong, it is heinous, it is murder plain and simple, and it was as predictable as the sun rising in the East." ~Wm Rivers Pitt

>to use that example, most ppl i know who went the rotc route
>ONLY did it because they knew there wasn't much else in the
>option of furthering their education otherwise. not 'cause
>they were in love with america.

*nods* I'm sure thats the case. I'm just sayin as well as those who say they are doing this to further their education (and there is *nothing* noble about that imho), there are also those who really ARE in love with america and what it stands for. *shrugs*

>if you're already forced to work/help out your fam in high
>school, you may not have time to fill out/search for
>grant/scholarship applications etc. guidance counselors are
>usually only a help in the best high schools, and if no one
>else in your fam has even seen the inside of a college
>classroom....
>
>it ain't easy getting "ahead" here...not for rural and/or poor
>urban kids.

I understand. The fact is...life is hard and painful. we must still make choices tho. either empowering ones or disempowering ones. and messed up as society is, its not SO restricted that we dont have any other option besides signing up to be a willing participant in an unjust war.

>i understand what you're saying. but that things like "western
>global domination" are indicative of a mentality that most
>americans never even recognize as being a factor.

this is true. very unfortunate. It was really shocking when it seemed that 9/11 was the first time a lotta Americans had really thought about all of this. its a complex issue. ur definitely right about that.

>most of these kids didn't go into the military thinking about
>killing. it was about a job, getting to see the world on unc
>sam's dime, and maybe making a life for themselves afterwards.
>boot camp was just a bump in the road.

Its amazing to think ppl who consider themselves fairly smart could sign up to participate in a war and never once *think* that its about killing. I'm hearing what ur saying here...the perspective of the young person who signs up for this...and while I can imagine the hopelessness/despair ppl might feel and the desire to broaden their career prospects, i think its actually making a good case for why the onus SHOULD be on the troops and not the govt.

>it's not even about "perks" so much as it is being able to eke
>out some kind of future.

a future because of eduction, money, being able to travel? at the expense of the future/life of that person they have just invaded? that sounds incredibly fucked up to me. It comes back to the very distrubing notion that a Western life is 10 times more valuable than non-western one. If an American or Englishman dies we should all cry and curse that day. If a rwandan or cambodian or peruvian dies...ho hum, pass the butter.

>we'd almost be better off doing something like sweden and/or
>israel and training EVERYONE in military service for a couple
>of years between 18-24 or so and then you can choose to
>continue or go about your life vs. making it some kind of
>economic entrapment/extortion racket.

that could be a good idea *thumbs up*. I think the real solution tho is NOT to advocate war in the first place. The govt could employ a very charming and charismatic speaker to sell the idea of joining the military. then that young person might choose based on a lie or manipulation. I'd rather they watch full metal jacket or suhm and actually attend lectures on globalization, war, imperialism and how the West came into power...and THEN decide what they wanna do.

>instead of forced
>conscription, we have a sort of socioeconomic draft. and
>always have. look at the history of the irish in the civil
>war. blks on the front line in vietnam. it's BEEN fucked up.

EXACTLY!

>but again, you'd have to understand something about the
>mentality that the military fosters in ppl. they break you
>down. literally.

I hear u. so tell me. would u allow urself to be broken down Lex? to the point where u will sign up for something KNOWING its morally wrong/unjust? Could u be manipulated or schooled in such a way that ur future will then be in the hands of the government?

my sense is that NO u wouldnt allow that to be the case. I will speak for myself and say I really don't think i can be broken down with any such mentality. And im no more different or special or strongwilled than anybody else. I'm not gonna condemn them but im not gonna make any excuses for the troops either...if they have chosen this...okay. its their choice and im not ANTI them. i am ANTI war. if they decide to participate in that tho, they should own their decision and not pussyfoot around the issue by making out that they are SO hard done by that it was literally their ONLY option. we are dying. ppl are suffering and starving all over the world. ppl are being enslaved and orphaned every day. It is *they* who could say they have no options. Whereas, living in America or England in 2005...and signing up, saying its because u wanna travel or u want a degree and the military is therefore the ONLY option...hmmm ionno if im buyin that. feel me?

>99.9% of those who cannot conform to that standard are weeded
>out long before they reach anyone's battlefield.

lucky them!

>ha. yeah i used to say the same...
>americans are gullible because they're isolated.

>we don't speak multiple languages
>we don't travel.
>"high culture" (art, good music, etc) is, generally, seen as
>academic and elitist.

no arguments from me!

>we're the best. period. no need to go anywhere else.
>these are the attitudes that, in the long run, make us so
>reluctant to open our eyes to what is before us.
>
>it's sad and it's sick. but i haven't yet figured out (or come
>across someone who has) how we can heal from this except to
>(a) lose our position as a world power or (b) time (america
>is, historically speaking, a rowdy teenager)

I think America as a global superpower, exists for a reason. Afterall there must be some evil beast in the world otherwise how do we measure our conscience? Globalization has taught me that for me to experience pleasure...a nice material life, fresh nikes, nice gadgets...someone is prolly suffering. its an imbalanced world we live in. so I guess we have to create the balance in ourselves with the choices we make. Truthfully, I am cynical about the notion of there ever been a demonstration of balance in our external environment- where all lives are valued equally and there is no need for war cos we know better. I think realistically, all that will happen is the *United* States and *Great?*Britain will continue to thrive thru bullying, theft, warmongering, lies- whatever. Build and destroy and...unfortunately...*WE* will continue to help them do so.

>i know for a fact that my cousin and my godson's godfather
>went in because they didn't have anything else to do. college
>wasn't for them, they were just stagnating here...the military
>seemed a decent alternative.

are those REAL factors tho? or are they just limiting beliefs?
'i have nothing else to do'
'im black in America so im restricted'
'college is not for me'
'im too unskilled to do ____'
'we are stagnating here'
'the military is a decent alternative'

we must consider these things. if its not real, it should be thrown out. the onus is ON-US.

peace Sis.

I enjoyed building

Cant blame students, BLAME THE TEACHERS. Cant blame the youth, BLAME THE PARENTS. Cant blame the team, BLAME THE COACH. Cant blame the sheep, BLAME THE SHEPARD. If you get where i'm going with this.

Memorizing now-
MF DOOM- Special Herbs 1 - 9
Miles Davis- Sorcerer
J Dilla- Ruff Draft
Yesterday's Universe- Prepare 4 New Yesterday
Onra - CHINOISERIES
Without a parable YAHushua spake not. Matthew 13:34

>*nods* I'm sure thats the case. I'm just sayin as well as
>those who say they are doing this to further their education
>(and there is *nothing* noble about that imho), there are also
>those who really ARE in love with america and what it stands
>for. *shrugs*

oh most definitely.
but from my experience, they seem to be a serious minority.


>I understand. The fact is...life is hard and painful. we must
>still make choices tho. either empowering ones or
>disempowering ones. and messed up as society is, its not SO
>restricted that we dont have any other option besides signing
>up to be a willing participant in an unjust war.

true. and i've heard stories of conscientious objectors to this conflict.

but again, you and i both are coming from a perspective that too many americans lack.


>this is true. very unfortunate. It was really shocking when it
>seemed that 9/11 was the first time a lotta Americans had
>really thought about all of this. its a complex issue. ur
>definitely right about that.

and that's what fostered the "we are the world" sentiment right afterward. the world thought that we would *finally* understand their pain.

but, of course, we wound up understanding nothing. and here we are.


>Its amazing to think ppl who consider themselves fairly smart
>could sign up to participate in a war and never once *think*
>that its about killing. I'm hearing what ur saying here...the
>perspective of the young person who signs up for this...and
>while I can imagine the hopelessness/despair ppl might feel
>and the desire to broaden their career prospects, i think its
>actually making a good case for why the onus SHOULD be on the
>troops and not the govt.

but, see, no one could predict 9/11 or any of that, really. they weren't signing up for a war, just the job.

outside of that, the military can't keep up their recruting goals these days. even in some of their most reliable areas. so no one is really "signing up" at this point. i read an article a few months ago that called it the "silent protest".

and don't forget the "2 weekends a year" reservists who got caught up. (although i don't know why you'd want to have the military as a hobby...)

if we disagree on anything, it appears it'll have to be this. i blame the folks in power. they give the commands, they are the ones who lied. as usual. everyone else got caught in the middle. and now they're just trying to get home.

ultimately what's being played on is the instinct of self-preservation.


>a future because of eduction, money, being able to travel? at
>the expense of the future/life of that person they have just
>invaded? that sounds incredibly fucked up to me.

it is.


>It comes back
>to the very distrubing notion that a Western life is 10 times
>more valuable than non-western one. If an American or
>Englishman dies we should all cry and curse that day. If a
>rwandan or cambodian or peruvian dies...ho hum, pass the
>butter.

yup.


>that could be a good idea *thumbs up*. I think the real
>solution tho is NOT to advocate war in the first place. The
>govt could employ a very charming and charismatic speaker to
>sell the idea of joining the military. then that young person
>might choose based on a lie or manipulation. I'd rather they
>watch full metal jacket or suhm and actually attend lectures
>on globalization, war, imperialism and how the West came into
>power...and THEN decide what they wanna do.

wouldn't that be a glorious day....

imo, this is all part of keeping up the front of democracy. they wanna call it a volunteer army, but it really isn't. it's a "backdoor draft" based on socioeconomic status.

>I hear u. so tell me. would u allow urself to be broken down
>Lex? to the point where u will sign up for something KNOWING
>its morally wrong/unjust? Could u be manipulated or schooled
>in such a way that ur future will then be in the hands of the
>government?

no. but a lot of that has to do with the fact that i grew up with someone who *did*. and i saw the effects of war and that mentality thru him (my father).


>my sense is that NO u wouldnt allow that to be the case. I
>will speak for myself and say I really don't think i can be
>broken down with any such mentality. And im no more different
>or special or strongwilled than anybody else.

just by virtue of thinking of things globally, you are special--at least in the context of western society.

but of course you wouldn't. and you wouldn't go into the military, either.

you saying that is the equivalent of a strong-willed, independent, confident woman going, "i wish some man WOULD hit me..." when she would never be with an abusive man in the first place.

batterers know who to go after.
so does the u.s. military.


>I'm not gonna
>condemn them but im not gonna make any excuses for the troops
>either...if they have chosen this...okay. its their choice and
>im not ANTI them. i am ANTI war. if they decide to participate
>in that tho, they should own their decision and not pussyfoot
>around the issue by making out that they are SO hard done by
>that it was literally their ONLY option. we are dying. ppl are
>suffering and starving all over the world. ppl are being
>enslaved and orphaned every day. It is *they* who could say
>they have no options. Whereas, living in America or England in
>2005...and signing up, saying its because u wanna travel or u
>want a degree and the military is therefore the ONLY
>option...hmmm ionno if im buyin that. feel me?

yeah i get you.

but a degree, if you want a halfway decent job w/ some benefits u won't have to pay out the ass for, really is no longer an "option". it's a requirement.

going from there, it's a little easier to put it all in perspective. for me, anyway.

but, overall, i'm on your side.


>>99.9% of those who cannot conform to that standard are
>weeded
>>out long before they reach anyone's battlefield.
>
>lucky them!

ha.

i'm just saying, they are experts in this. again, they know who to go after and who to leave alone.


>I think America as a global superpower, exists for a reason.
>Afterall there must be some evil beast in the world otherwise
>how do we measure our conscience? Globalization has taught me
>that for me to experience pleasure...a nice material life,
>fresh nikes, nice gadgets...someone is prolly suffering. its
>an imbalanced world we live in. so I guess we have to create
>the balance in ourselves with the choices we make.

excellent way of putting it. i agree.


Truthfully, I am cynical about the notion of there ever been a
>demonstration of balance in our external environment- where
>all lives are valued equally and there is no need for war cos
>we know better. I think realistically, all that will happen is
>the *United* States and *Great?*Britain will continue to
>thrive thru bullying, theft, warmongering, lies- whatever.
>Build and destroy and...unfortunately...*WE* will continue to
>help them do so.

we can't last forever. even britain is a shadow of her former self.

our behavior is not sustainable. the only question is whether the breakdown will come from within or without.


>are those REAL factors tho? or are they just limiting
>beliefs?
>'i have nothing else to do'
>'im black in America so im restricted'
>'college is not for me'
>'im too unskilled to do ____'
>'we are stagnating here'
>'the military is a decent alternative'
>
>we must consider these things. if its not real, it should be
>thrown out. the onus is ON-US.

indeed, indeed.

...and college really isn't for everyone. there are all kinds of factors that make that the case, and i'm sure i don't have to spell them out for you.

of course, location means a lot. baltimore ain't new york. *shrug* i can't claim to know what was going thru their minds.

i did ask my mother why my cousin decided to go into the navy, and she said that that was pretty much the only option he saw. i'm sure my dad gave him "the talk" he gives everyone he sees going in, but...


>peace Sis.
>
>I enjoyed building

the feeling's mutual

peace!
~~~~
~*~40 yrs. 6 days.~*~

"The world was warned about this...The CIA calls what happened in London today "blowback." It is wrong, it is heinous, it is murder plain and simple, and it was as predictable as the sun rising in the East." ~Wm Rivers Pitt

So draw your conclusions from that.

For legitimizing this dumb ass post with a response.
**********

Reality check: according to the 2000 census, there were more than 31,000 black physicians and surgeons, 33,000 black lawyers. There are about 1,400 black athletes playing professional basketball, football and baseball combined.

>For legitimizing this dumb ass post with a response.
>**********

I didn't even get into a discussion about how millitary recruiters are manipulating kids at highschools.










Download the New MP3 :

MKLVFKWR (Public Enemy) Dick Cheney Orchestrated 9/11 remixx....

www.pharmacizt.info/MKLVFKWR%20pharmacizt%20rmx.mp3

hows that?

could, in fact, be manipulated schoolkids. Do you really want to blame those for the troubles in Iraq?!

Of course, you need soldiers to fight a war, but soldiers are like computers; stupid and ready to be programmed.