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zewari
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7113 posts
Fri Nov-19-04 04:02 PM

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"Germans force French city to take down anti-Nazi sign"


  

          


by Ernesto Cienfuegos
La Voz de Aztlan

Los Angeles, Alta California - November 18, 2004 - (ACN) Oleiros is a small town of about 30,000 persons in the northern Spanish region of Galicia. Like most towns and cities in the region, the people have a highly developed sense of social and human justice. This high sense of justice in Oleiros is often reflected in the types of campaigns that the town's government often undertakes concerning global issues.

One situation that the citizens of Oleiros feel very strong about is the Zionist occupation of Palestine and the daily injustices that the Palestinian people have to suffer under the brutal Ariel Sharon and his Nazi like Likud Party. Recently the town, along with its mayor Angel Garcia, decided to undertake an official campaign to express their solidarity with the Palestinian struggle. As part of the campaign, the town sponsored an electronic sign that called Ariel Sharon a "Beast" and members of his political party "The New Nazis". In addition, the town, in an effort to raise funds to aid injured Palestinian children, was selling t-shirts that said "Against the Genocidal Policy of Ariel Sharon" and "In Support of the Palestinian People."

What happened yesterday to the sign is a testament of the immense and sinister global power and influence that International Zionism now has, not just in Spain but in the USA as well. After a Jew spotted the sign and alerted the Israeli Embassy in Madrid, the Zionist machinery revved up full speed to crush the town's freedom of speech and expression, something it has not yet been able to do in the "First Amendment" land of America, though strong efforts are under way to do it here as well.

Yesterday Oleiros Mayor Angel Garcia was forced to change the wording of the electronic sign and stop selling the t-shirts. It looks like the Zionists put the screws on Spanish Foreign Minister Miguel Moratinos in some way that deserves careful investigation. The incident is reminiscent of what took place in Mexico City on October 2001 when two Israeli terrorists were released after being arrested in an attempt to bomb the Mexican Congress. In this case, the Israeli Embassy also intervened with Mexico's Secretary of Foreign Relations George Castaneda Gutman and the result was the "sweeping under the rug" of the whole affair.

Also, the incident is very similar to when Mexico was forced to rescind its vote on UN Security Council Resolution 3379 that equated Zionism with racism back on November 10, 1975. The resolution had concluded that "...Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination" and Mexico was one of seventy two countries that voted to pass the resolution. The resolution infuriated World Jewry and they embarked on a campaign to rescind the resolution. Attesting to their international hold on the world economy and international political power, they where able to subjugate the economies of many of the countries that voted in favor of U.N. Resolution 3379. With Mexico, they were able to bring their tourism industry to its knees. Acapulco and Cancun became virtual "ghost towns". On December 16, 1991, the United Nations was forced to have a new vote and Resolution 3379 was rescinded.

Perhaps it is time to revisit and read "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion". This document, which Zionists refute as being legitimate, actually makes sense when the incidents in Oleiros, Spain and in Mexico City are viewed under the "protocols" lense. How else can these types of incidents be explained? How can Ariel Sharon who is known as "The Butcher of Sabra and Shatilla" get away with his crimes? How can the "Nazi like" Likud Party benefit from 5 Billion dollars per year in US taxpayers money?

_¸»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«SiG»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«¸_



“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice. Remember, God is the best of Protectors and well acquainted with all that you do.”
-Qur’an 4:135

"Don't be deceived when they tell you things are better now. Even if there's no poverty to be seen because the poverty's been hidden. Even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which industries foist on you and even if it seems to you that you never had so much, that is only the slogan of those who still have much more than you. Don't be taken in when they paternally pat you on the shoulder and say that there's no inequality worth speaking of and no more reason to fight because if you believe them they will be completely in charge in their marble homes and granite banks from which they rob the people of the world under the pretence of bringing them culture. Watch out, for as soon as it pleases them they'll send you out to protect their gold in wars whose weapons, rapidly developed by servile scientists, will become more and more deadly until they can with a flick of the finger tear a million of you to pieces."
--Jean Paul Marat, 18th Century French Visionary (and revolutionary), murdered in his bathtub by Royalist Charlotte Corday


__________________________

www.supportblackowned.org

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
RE: Germans force French city to take down anti-Nazi sign
Nov 20th 2004
1
lol
Nov 20th 2004
2
Ha!
Nov 20th 2004
3
seriously
Nov 22nd 2004
47
It's irony...a flip-side to the coin
Nov 20th 2004
4
Man, I think you're going about this the wrong way.
Nov 20th 2004
5
Zionists policies heavily mirror Nazi tactics
Nov 20th 2004
6
      You can do better than this.
Nov 20th 2004
7
           the Nazi comparison is completely valid
Nov 20th 2004
10
                no its not
Nov 21st 2004
13
                the analogy stands, and you are confusing the issues...
Nov 21st 2004
15
                     RE: the analogy stands, and you are confusing the issues...
Nov 21st 2004
17
                          was that supposed to be a serious response?
Nov 21st 2004
18
                          No it wasn't, it was a gut reaction to your ignorance.
Nov 21st 2004
29
                               I'll respond after finals cause this is bullshit...
Nov 21st 2004
30
                                    Did you even go to the other sites?
Nov 21st 2004
31
                                         answer the question
Nov 21st 2004
32
                                              RE: answer the question
Nov 21st 2004
34
                                                   do better.
Nov 21st 2004
35
                                                        Do better?
Nov 21st 2004
38
                                                             you said that specific article was HATEFUL...
Nov 21st 2004
39
                          Co sign this guy
Nov 21st 2004
27
                RE: the Nazi comparison is completely valid
Mar 08th 2005
124
                     look @ this tough guy here.
Mar 08th 2005
126
How can I take you seriously
Nov 20th 2004
8
read response #10
Nov 20th 2004
11
      How does that make it any less offensive?
Nov 21st 2004
14
      you are reacting emotionally and illogically
Nov 21st 2004
16
           Read Mein Kampf
Nov 21st 2004
19
                incomparable.
Nov 21st 2004
20
                     How so?
Nov 21st 2004
21
                          read again.
Nov 21st 2004
23
                               RE: read again.
Nov 21st 2004
25
      what does anti-semtic mean?
Nov 21st 2004
41
           even more so...
Nov 22nd 2004
65
                Co-freakin'-sign
Nov 22nd 2004
66
                     yup i agree
Nov 26th 2004
82
this IS a legitimate comparison....
Nov 20th 2004
9
Picture and article about the anti-Sharon sign
Nov 20th 2004
12
Blacks force klan to take down burning cross.
Nov 21st 2004
22
read posts #10 and #15
Nov 21st 2004
24
      Im making a fair analogy
Nov 21st 2004
26
           Actually that analogy was gross
Nov 21st 2004
28
                I agree
Nov 22nd 2004
42
                     while i won't comment
Nov 22nd 2004
43
                          Neither does his
Nov 22nd 2004
44
                               point taken, however
Nov 22nd 2004
45
                                    I can make an analogy for anything
Nov 22nd 2004
46
                                         RE: I can make an analogy for anything
Nov 22nd 2004
48
                                         RE: I can make an analogy for anything
Nov 22nd 2004
59
                                              Yes it is
Nov 22nd 2004
67
                                                   That's it right there
Nov 29th 2004
91
                                         you are LYING
Nov 22nd 2004
50
Jewish professor accused of "anti-semitism" by Canadian Jewish Congress
Nov 21st 2004
33
RE: Jewish professor accused of "anti-semitism" by Canadian Jewish Congr
Nov 21st 2004
36
      triple major
Nov 21st 2004
37
           Respect, thats alot of work.
Nov 21st 2004
40
Ha'aretz: Israel-Nazi comparison is VALID
Nov 22nd 2004
49
you still put a misleading title on this post
Nov 22nd 2004
56
      is that supposed to be a serious comment??
Nov 22nd 2004
57
           the title was
Nov 22nd 2004
58
                its called symbollism.
Nov 22nd 2004
60
                     that's a bullshit defense
Nov 22nd 2004
61
                          I'm not defending anything cause there's nothing to defend
Nov 22nd 2004
62
                               because you didn't post it as an analogy
Nov 22nd 2004
63
                                    the analogy was freakin' OBVIOUS
Nov 22nd 2004
64
                                         I have 3 more
Nov 23rd 2004
68
                                              yeah... ok
Nov 23rd 2004
69
                                                   well it read kinda like bitterness
Nov 23rd 2004
70
Einstein & 27 prominent Jews compared zionists to Nazis
Nov 22nd 2004
51
Rabbi Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandl asks 10 questions to zionists
Nov 22nd 2004
52
Collection of statements from Rabbis AGAINST zionism
Nov 22nd 2004
53
      Rabbi Mordechai Gifter: ZIONISTS ARE MURDERERS
Nov 22nd 2004
54
British Jewish MPs liken Gaza to Nazi Ghettos
Nov 22nd 2004
55
^up for the zionist appologists^
Nov 26th 2004
71
You gonna cry cos people disagree with you?
Nov 26th 2004
73
all you do is 'object' cause you can't validate your argument.
Nov 26th 2004
76
      I posted some sources for you to ignore
Nov 26th 2004
77
           on what planet?
Nov 26th 2004
78
                On planet bullshit
Nov 26th 2004
80
                     that's a stupid objective.
Nov 29th 2004
86
                          Sure it was
Nov 29th 2004
89
                               FACT is NOT OBJECTIVE
Nov 29th 2004
90
                                    So you believe in universal truth?
Nov 29th 2004
92
                                         FACTS are not subject to interpretation
Dec 08th 2004
104
                                              Its not indisputable though
Dec 14th 2004
108
                                                   1+1=2
Dec 14th 2004
110
                                                        Numbers are symbols
Dec 15th 2004
112
RE: ^up for the zionist appologists^
Nov 26th 2004
74
      the charge of anti-semiticism makes NO sense
Nov 26th 2004
75
           RE: the charge of anti-semiticism makes NO sense
Nov 26th 2004
79
                RE: the charge of anti-semiticism makes NO sense
Nov 29th 2004
87
up
Nov 26th 2004
72
so, you're anti semetic?
Nov 26th 2004
81
nope, i AM semitic
Nov 27th 2004
85
you sound like a damn nazi
Nov 27th 2004
83
you're anti-semitic
Nov 27th 2004
84
Israeli TV EXPOSED Zionists' EUGENICS Campaign
Nov 29th 2004
88
Jerusalem Post: Over 50% of Germans equate IDF w/ Nazi army
Dec 08th 2004
93
Who are they to talk?
Dec 08th 2004
95
      people w/ first hand experience of Nazi tactics
Dec 08th 2004
97
           Clearly not
Dec 08th 2004
98
                so only people who've been to israel can understand...
Dec 08th 2004
100
                     Nope
Dec 08th 2004
102
Israeli soldiers expose maniacal belligerence towards defenseless Palest
Dec 08th 2004
94
Soldiers are belligerent?
Dec 08th 2004
96
      you represent rejectionism @ its worst
Dec 08th 2004
99
           What am I rejecting
Dec 08th 2004
101
                you're rejecting the criminality of zionism
Dec 08th 2004
103
                     RE: you're rejecting the criminality of zionism
Dec 09th 2004
105
                          you seriously place Palestinian terrorism on par with Israeli terrorism?
Dec 14th 2004
106
                               Sigh
Dec 14th 2004
107
                                    this is exactly why you're a pathetic rejectionist.
Dec 14th 2004
109
                                         BOO
Dec 15th 2004
111
                                              you're either delusional, in denial, or willingly rejecting FACTS.
Dec 21st 2004
113
                                                   I question your "sources"
Dec 28th 2004
115
                                                        you are thoroughly disgusting
Dec 28th 2004
116
                                                             Yup, that solved it
Dec 29th 2004
117
UN Resolution 3379 identified zionism as a form of racism
Dec 21st 2004
114
request to archive
Jan 20th 2005
118
anti-NAZI is NAZI
Jan 22nd 2005
119
hhhwaaaaaaaatt??? (c) Lil' John
Jan 22nd 2005
120
      it was creative license
Mar 08th 2005
123
Israeli measures to silence the voices of truth
Feb 11th 2005
121
London's Mayor speaks out
Mar 08th 2005
122
RE: London's Mayor speaks out
Mar 08th 2005
125
crack really is a helluva drug
Mar 08th 2005
127
Wonderful, a corrupt turncoat hypocrite speaks out.
Mar 15th 2005
128

samsara
Member since Sep 15th 2002
3464 posts
Sat Nov-20-04 06:01 AM

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1. "RE: Germans force French city to take down anti-Nazi sign"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

did you not like the author's own title? or is this the result of a random subject generator?

"i fear no fate" e.e. cummings
"No girl. No fried chicken. I'm going back to get some sleep." - Haruki Murakami

  

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afrobongo
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33968 posts
Sat Nov-20-04 06:47 AM

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2. "lol"
In response to Reply # 1


          

______________________________

We're Twinning !




  

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Tank
Charter member
4903 posts
Sat Nov-20-04 06:47 AM

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3. "Ha!"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          


---
"It's easy to blur the truth with a simple linguistic trick: start your story from "Secondly."" -- Mourid Barghouti

  

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johnny_domino
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17027 posts
Mon Nov-22-04 05:11 AM

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47. "seriously"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

it's like madlibs or somesuch

  

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MANHOODLUM
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27788 posts
Sat Nov-20-04 07:02 AM

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4. "It's irony...a flip-side to the coin"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

think about it.

Avatar?
E-Boogs and Nayi

MANHOODLUM
Most sig'd okp.
No Aliases.

MANHOODLUM via Twitter
MANHOODLUM@live.com
MANHOODLUM@yahoo.com
Tommy Moran @ Facebook
MANHOODLUM@tmo.blackberry.net

  

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rubadubdub
Charter member
505 posts
Sat Nov-20-04 01:14 PM

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5. "Man, I think you're going about this the wrong way."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

As much as I'm against a strong Zionist lobby, ethnic-cleansing and colonial style Israeli occupation, I don't like this article for its heavy anti-semetic undertones. And it does have them. I think if you want to create any meaningful change ya gotta dissasociate yourself from this kinda crap. Comparing Zionists to Nazis does very little, comparing them to South African Boers circa the early eighties or Serbs or Americans is much better.


COULTER: Osama bin Laden is D-E-D
dead. No one can convince me
otherwise.

BIN LADEN: occupying himself by
talking to the little girl about the goat
and its butting was more important
than occupying himself with the
planes and their butting of the
skyscrapers.

  

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zewari
Charter member
7113 posts
Sat Nov-20-04 01:38 PM

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6. "Zionists policies heavily mirror Nazi tactics"
In response to Reply # 5
Sat Nov-20-04 01:39 PM

  

          

so the analogy stands. the same could be said for the apartheid system in S. Africa.

what were the "heavily anti-semitic undertones" you detected?

FYI: 95% of the world's Jews are not of Semitic origin.


_¸»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«SiG»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«¸_



“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice. Remember, God is the best of Protectors and well acquainted with all that you do.”
-Qur’an 4:135

"Don't be deceived when they tell you things are better now. Even if there's no poverty to be seen because the poverty's been hidden. Even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which industries foist on you and even if it seems to you that you never had so much, that is only the slogan of those who still have much more than you. Don't be taken in when they paternally pat you on the shoulder and say that there's no inequality worth speaking of and no more reason to fight because if you believe them they will be completely in charge in their marble homes and granite banks from which they rob the people of the world under the pretence of bringing them culture. Watch out, for as soon as it pleases them they'll send you out to protect their gold in wars whose weapons, rapidly developed by servile scientists, will become more and more deadly until they can with a flick of the finger tear a million of you to pieces."
--Jean Paul Marat, 18th Century French Visionary (and revolutionary), murdered in his bathtub by Royalist Charlotte Corday


__________________________

www.supportblackowned.org

  

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rubadubdub
Charter member
505 posts
Sat Nov-20-04 03:05 PM

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7. "You can do better than this."
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

First of all, the comparison to the Nazis is not necessary. I think there are far better comparisons to other nationalist movements that aren't so inflamatory. Looking at the links between the ideology of European anti-semetism and Zionism is good and worthy but to repeatedly use the phrase Nazi like is disengenuous. The Nazis, if you don't remember, tried to invade all of Europe killing tens of millions. Six million Jews Gypsies and Gays were destroyed in a fast and systematic way. As awful, immoral and destructive as the Zionist movement is; it's not NAZI LIKE. Like I said, it's far more similar now to America under legalised segregation or Apartheid South Africa or any number of awful regimes.

>What happened yesterday to the sign is a testament of the immense and sinister global power and influence that International Zionism now has, not just in Spain but in the USA as well.

The wording seems so carefully chosen to allude to historical anti-semetic texts and propaganda. I don't doubt that the Zionist lobby is way to powerful in Washington and is ONE reason for the US's continued support for Israel but to use the word "sinister" and "global power" is like the guy was reading The Protocols...

>The resolution infuriated World Jewry and they embarked on a campaign to rescind the resolution. Attesting to their international hold on the world economy and international political power, they where able to subjugate the economies of many of the countries that voted in favor of U.N. Resolution 3379.

This allegation is also reminiscent of centuries of European racist bullshit...

>Perhaps it is time to revisit and read "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion". This document, which Zionists refute as being legitimate, actually makes sense when the incidents in Oleiros, Spain and in Mexico City are viewed under the "protocols" lense. How else can these types of incidents be explained?

AH, so I was right, this nutso author is getting this straight out of the Protocols, geez. Where did you get this article? stormfront? This is the kicker. It's been heavily documented by Jews and non Jews alike that this book was fabricated by Russian anti-semites and used to justify many muderous deeds including influencing Hitler. So if anyone is Nazi like here it's the author of this article who seems more than likely to be a neo nazi himself considering they're the only people who still read the protocols.

COULTER: Osama bin Laden is D-E-D
dead. No one can convince me
otherwise.

BIN LADEN: occupying himself by
talking to the little girl about the goat
and its butting was more important
than occupying himself with the
planes and their butting of the
skyscrapers.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

            
zewari
Charter member
7113 posts
Sat Nov-20-04 08:09 PM

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10. "the Nazi comparison is completely valid"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

>First of all, the comparison to the Nazis is not necessary.
>I think there are far better comparisons to other
>nationalist movements that aren't so inflamatory.

Equating the zionist movement with a nationalist movement is invalid. Nationalism is not exclusionary with respect to religion or race... nationalism is a movement centered on the social identity of a nation. Zionism is inherently exclusionary on account of religion, which disqualifies it from being treated as a nationalist movement.

>Looking at
>the links between the ideology of European anti-semetism and
>Zionism is good and worthy but to repeatedly use the phrase
>Nazi like is disengenuous. The Nazis, if you don't remember,
>tried to invade all of Europe killing tens of millions. Six
>million Jews Gypsies and Gays were destroyed in a fast and
>systematic way. As awful, immoral and destructive as the
>Zionist movement is; it's not NAZI LIKE. Like I said, it's
>far more similar now to America under legalised segregation
>or Apartheid South Africa or any number of awful regimes.

You're making the flaw of assuming that the comparison of zionists with Nazis is on account of what happened in World War II. The Nazi party platform was not isolated to WWII. The zionists practices greatly correlate in principle and action with the Nazy party's supremecist ideology and their subsequent political programs. I don't think you trully understand the genocidal nature of the policies by apartheid South Africa and the state of Israel, because you seem to think that they were lesser evils with respect to Nazi Germany. The only thing that separated the political maneuvers of Nazi Germany from apartheid S. Africa or the zionist presence in Palestinian land is SCALE.

Interestingly enough, there were many instances of prior to and during World War II, as both groups found a degree of similarity in their respective objectives- the idea of Jews being expelled from Germany by the Nazis was welcomed by zionists who sought to increase immigration to the "promise land". You seem to be one of those people who jump to charge the "anti-semite" accusation irresponsibly. I urge you to check sites like www.jewsagainstzionism.com and www.jewsnotzionists.org who also repeat comparisons between the Nazis and the zionists.

Noam Chomsky, who was also a former zionist, outlines how the zionists systematically recreated Nazi policies in Palestine in his book "The Iron Triangle". Also check out a book written by a former Mossad agent named Victor Ostrovsky called "By Way of Deception" to get a better idea about the horrendous actions of the Israeli state. Paul Findley's book "They Dare to Speak" also outlines many glaring similarities between Nazi Germany and zionist Israel.

When comparing zionist policy with that of the Nazis, you have to look at the way the Nazis treated desenters and those perceived as the "lesser" peoples with how the zionists treat desenters and those they deem as inferior peoples (i.e. so-called "gentiles" and, to a lesser extent, non-white jews). The zionists match the Nazis in almost every level of policies and actions. True dissent is not tolerated in the least bit- look at what happened to Vanunu after disclosing Israel's illegal nuclear weapons program (which they developed in close cooperation with apartheid S. Africa, along with their vast arsenal of chemical weapons), or their persecution of soldiers refusing to operate in the occupied territories. The zionists have also systematically contaminated the soil, and poisoned & diverted water resources from Palestinian lands in a systematic effort to starve out the Palestinian people and increase the mortality rate among Palestinians. The systematic economic suffocation of the Palestinians also mirrors the practices of Nazi Germany prior to the war. The Palestinians are confined to true ghettos much like the way Jews were confined to true ghettos in Nazi Germany. The zionists impose a brutal military presence that terrorizes Palestinian populations in much the same way the Nazis terrorized "non-aryans". The zionists systematically destroy the basic life support systems of the Palestinians in a methodical way much like the Nazis did prior to and during World War II.

What you seem to compare is the Nazi holocaust with the Palestinian genocide. That comparison was never proposed by myself, but a very powerful case could be made for making such a comparison as well... and the Iraqi genocide could arguably be linked to zionist hands. Israeli papers like the Haertz even reported that the current war against Iraq was lead by a group of 25 neoconservatives, most of which are prominent zionists.

>>What happened yesterday to the sign is a testament of the immense and sinister global power and influence that International Zionism now has, not just in Spain but in the USA as well.
>
>The wording seems so carefully chosen to allude to
>historical anti-semetic texts and propaganda. I don't doubt
>that the Zionist lobby is way to powerful in Washington and
>is ONE reason for the US's continued support for Israel but
>to use the word "sinister" and "global power" is like the
>guy was reading The Protocols...

You are reaching here. The writer is calling a spade for what it is when describing the suppression of legitimate dissent against zionism as being sinister. This cannot qualify as being anti-semitism.

>>The resolution infuriated World Jewry and they embarked on a campaign to rescind the resolution. Attesting to their international hold on the world economy and international political power, they where able to subjugate the economies of many of the countries that voted in favor of U.N. Resolution 3379.

>This allegation is also reminiscent of centuries of European
>racist bullshit...

Again, you are guilty of loosely ascribing an allegation of anti-semitism. You can contest the claim that significant control of global economy and international politics is controlled by zionists, but you cannot logically equate that with racism or draw parallels to "European racist bullshit". The definition of racism is not satisfied by the author's statements.

>>Perhaps it is time to revisit and read "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion". This document, which Zionists refute as being legitimate, actually makes sense when the incidents in Oleiros, Spain and in Mexico City are viewed under the "protocols" lense. How else can these types of incidents be explained?

>AH, so I was right, this nutso author is getting this
>straight out of the Protocols, geez. Where did you get this
>article? stormfront?

The source of the article is linked in the title. Its a publication called The Aztlan. Check out their website to see what they are about before you start comparing them to white-supremecist organizations. You have to look at the argument proposed instead of picking on a contentious factor and telescoping it to dismiss the argument. For one, there was no assertion that the Protocols of Zion was true. The author contends that the incidents in Oleiros and Mexico City fit the context of the disputed Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. The question you should've asked yourself would be what those incidents were. The Oleiros incident refers to the zionists pressuring the town to take down the pro-Palestinian human rights signs that they had decided to put up. The incident in Mexico City was one that occured a month after 9/11, where two Mossad agents were arrested in the Mexican Parliament for plotting to blow it up while it was in session. The agents were found with bombs and other munitions, and were immediately arrested... but later deported due to heavy handed pressure from Israel and the United States. The Aztlan had not made any argument contending that the Protocols of Zion are authentic. They argue that the behavior of the zionists forces are consistent with the Protocols. There's a big difference between the two positions.

>This is the kicker. It's been heavily
>documented by Jews and non Jews alike that this book was
>fabricated by Russian anti-semites and used to justify many
>muderous deeds including influencing Hitler.

This book had very little to do with motivating or justifying Hitler's deeds. The generation of Germans that came of age during the Nazi party's reign grew up during a period where Germans were pressed against the boots of their neighboring states. The anger, resentment, and hatred that lead to the formation of the Nazi party's policies are rooted in their collective national experience, not from this alleged work.

> So if anyone
>is Nazi like here it's the author of this article who seems
>more than likely to be a neo nazi himself considering
>they're the only people who still read the protocols.

Fallacios argument. You are really reaching here. In fact, it is mind numbing that you go so far as to say the Aztlan and this author is Nazi like or more Nazi like than the zionists in control of the Israeli state. The Nazis preached a doctrine of hate and supremacy that placed every "non-aryan" as inferior to the "aryan" man. Its amazing that you're so willing to label someone Nazi like despite the lack of any definitive declaration of hate or doctrine of racial supremacy. Furthermore, the Aztlan has historically aligned itself with global, pro-justice movements- unlike Nazi Germany, apartheid South Africa, or its ally Israel. First off, the Aztlan does not advocate the extermination of any Jews or any real semites. Second, the Aztlan hasn't passed categorical judgement on all Jews. Third, 95% of Jews aren't even Semites!! This is a fact that is not disputed by prominent Jewish scholars... and criticizing the policies of Israel or the actions of zionists does not make someone a racist, a bigot, or anti-semitic. And you should note that the Aztlan is closely affiliated with many pro-peace Jewish groups that are opposed to the state of Israel and the zionist forces.

I guess as a third-year journalism student, they really engrain that fallacious association of equating anything against the zionists with anti-semiticism huh? The U.S. press is quick to throw that label at anyone who criticizes zionist policy.

__________________________

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rubadubdub
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Sun Nov-21-04 12:08 AM

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13. "no its not"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

This really hurts, this really really hurts. This hurts me because I agree with you on so many issues. I dont always post, but I read and I sympathise. I have a few times in my activism been accused of being anti-semetic and that hurts too because I am sincereley not. I believe in a one state solution, a democracy for all, with a heavy emphasis on restitution towards the palestinian refugees and their descendants. I also believe palestinians are morally right, though not strategically, in doing whatever they can to fight for their sovereignty, violence included.

Everything you just posted about Nazi tactics and the similarity between them and the Zionists I have heard and most I believe to be true; however, that article crosses a line in its rhetoric. I don't think you understand the awful importance that the protocols of the elders of zion had. Like Mein Kampf, it was used as an ideological basis for genocide. This article, and ones like it, does far more harm to the Palestinian cause then good. It paints US anti-Zionist activists as either ignorant of historical antisemetism and oppression or as actual perpetrators. This only ads fuel to the fire. The rhetoric of anti-Zionism needs to be taken far away from the rhetoric of anti semetism for it to ever be worth anything.

Fuck it, nationalism is not some inclusive bullshit like you say it is. It's awful and usually quite brutal especially when tied to colonialism. Israel is a nationalist Jewish state. Jewish not as a religion but as a nation. It is for the most part secular, but racist. Many Zionists see their nationalist movement not unlike many black naitonalists see theirs. You're not going to convince an arab/muslim nationalist that he's wrong by calling him a backwards satanist sandnigger and you're not going to turn a woman off feminism by telling her she's acting up like a cunt. And you're definitely not gonna do anything worthwhile in the middle east by talking about "WORLD JEWRY and their insidious CONTROL OF THE WORLD ECONOMY especially if you're bringing up the goddamn fucking protocols of the elders of Zion. I looked at Aztlan; it's nothing special.

Blaming American global imperialism: economic, militarily and culturally, on the Zionists (read Jews) is a fucking unfortunate lie and is repeating a pattern of scapegoating that goes back centuries.


COULTER: Osama bin Laden is D-E-D
dead. No one can convince me
otherwise.

BIN LADEN: occupying himself by
talking to the little girl about the goat
and its butting was more important
than occupying himself with the
planes and their butting of the
skyscrapers.

  

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zewari
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Sun Nov-21-04 10:09 AM

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15. "the analogy stands, and you are confusing the issues..."
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

I believe you are mixing the issues and making an illogical argument. Here's why...

1. The analogy stands because nazi policies AND objectives are echoed in principle and deed by the Israeli state. You claimed the analogy failed because the Israelis have not committed attrocities at the scale that the nazis have, and thus the analogy failed... yet go on to argue that the above article's author is MORE comparable to the nazi party because of his mention of the Protocols of Zion. The irony of your willingness to extend every benefit of the doubt to the Israeli state in saying that they are not comparable to the nazis while willing to jump at labeling the Aztlan and the article's auther as being more "nazi like" is astounding. Furthermore, your comparison of the zionists with apartheid S. Africa as if apartheid S. Africa was incomparable to the nazis is even more mind numbing... and I think they relate your lack of understanding of apartheid S. Africa's brutality.

2. The context in which the Protocols were mentioned was such that its AUTHENTICITY was not argued. The author wrote that the behavior and actions of zionists in Spain and Mexico falls in-line with the Protocols. While I don't doubt the protocols were used to PERPETUATE the demonization of Jews collectively, its significance with respect to actually INCITING hatred against the Jews is highly debatable.

3. Your charge of anti-semitism remains to be unfounded. A Semite, by definition, describes only 5% of the Jews, 100% of the Arabs and Yemenis, and roughly 30% of the Ethiopians. For someone to be anti-semite, they would have to hate all these people. The author made references to zionist domination of the global economy and international politics. You can refute these arguments, but you cannot LOGICALLY cite them as evidence of anti-semitism. With regards to zionist domination, check the thread "BBC Exposes zionist control of the U.S." for more in-depth discussion. As for economic control... just look at who runs the privately owned Federal Reserve. At any rate, these belong in a separate discussion, but the addition of value judgment on zionist control of politics and economics as being evil or sinister could be looked at as being the "hateful" part... but then it becomes a matter of whether its a legitimate hate or not (i.e. if such domination was proven to be valid and that domination was proven to be used for evil). It therefore becomes subject to the validity of the purported Jewish domination. The mere fact that white supremecists use some of the same arguments does not invalidate the argument or make everyone else who poses the same arguments an anti-semite or a white supremecist. I mean, if you really believe it does, then you support the train of logic that would argue that because person A likes Oreos and is a Republican, person B must also be a republican because person B likes oreos also. That is fallacious reasoning.

4. With regards to nationalism, I would agree with you if you posed the argument that the name has been historically coopted to legitimize racially, ethnically and/or religiously exclusive movements- but the word itself strictly defines movements that revolve around a national identity, although its not uncommon to find nationalistic ferver coupled with ethnic, racial, and/or religious qualifiers. The moment this occurs, the movement stops being a true nationalist movement. Examples of nationalist movements would be the drive for Palestinian nationhood, the war for the unification of the Korean peninsula (both sides wanted it), the Eritrean liberation movement, etc. The immediate reaction of Americans after 9-11 could arguably be considered nationalist as well. The point is that nationalism revolves around an assumed national identity, not ethnic/religious/racial ones. The issue of nationalism isn't about how supporters of a movement identify themselves, its about how that movement compares with the actual definition. Nazis and KKK members didn't consider themselves as hateful bigots, but we all know they were. If you were to look at everything through the eyes of someone who believes in whatever you are examining, you will never get an objective interpretation.

>Blaming American global imperialism: economic, militarily
>and culturally, on the Zionists (read Jews) is a fucking
>unfortunate lie and is repeating a pattern of scapegoating
>that goes back centuries.

Even the Ha'aretz, which is an Israeli paper, reported that the Iraq war was orchestrated by a group of 25 neo-conservatives, most of whom are Jewish. Would you concede that zionist influences played a key role in the Iraqi genocide?

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rubadubdub
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Sun Nov-21-04 12:14 PM

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17. "RE: the analogy stands, and you are confusing the issues..."
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

>yet go on to argue that the above
>article's author is MORE comparable to the nazi party
>because of his mention of the Protocols of Zion.

HE'S USING THE BOOK THE NAZIS USED TO SCAPEGOAT THE EUROPEAN JEWS TO SCAPEGOAT MODERN DAY JEWS

The irony
>of your willingness to extend every benefit of the doubt to
>the Israeli state in saying that they are not comparable to
>the nazis while willing to jump at labeling the Aztlan and
>the article's auther as being more "nazi like" is
>astounding.

FUCK THE FASCIST ISRAELI STATE, ZIONISTS AND THEIR EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN SUPPORTERS. FUCK LEFTISTS WHO CANT DISTINGUISH BETWEEN BLATANT ANTISEMIMITISM (IN A HISTORICAL EUROPEAN CONTEXT) AND VALID CRITICISM.

Furthermore, your comparison of the zionists
>with apartheid S. Africa as if apartheid S. Africa was
>incomparable to the nazis is even more mind numbing... and I
>think they relate your lack of understanding of apartheid S.
>Africa's brutality.

SOUTH AFRICA WAS BRUTAL, ISRAEL IS BRUTAL, THE NAZIS WERE BRUTAL, COLONIAL SPAIN WAS MORE BRUTAL AS WAS BRITAIN FRANCE AND THE FUCKING USA. TO CONTINUE TO HARP ABOUT THE ISRAELIS BEING NAZIS IS SO FUCKING NARROW MINDED ITS UNBELIEVABLE.

>2. The context in which the Protocols were mentioned was
>such that its AUTHENTICITY was not argued. The author wrote
>that the behavior and actions of zionists in Spain and
>Mexico falls in-line with the Protocols.

FUCK THE PROTOCOLS AND FUCK THE AUTHOR

While I don't doubt
>the protocols were used to PERPETUATE the demonization of
>Jews collectively, its significance with respect to actually
>INCITING hatred against the Jews is highly debatable.

WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE?

>Even the Ha'aretz, which is an Israeli paper, reported that
>the Iraq war was orchestrated by a group of 25
>neo-conservatives, most of whom are Jewish. Would you
>concede that zionist influences played a key role in the
>Iraqi genocide?

YES IT DOES, BUT IT IS A VERY MINOR INFLUENCE COMPARED TO THE ROLE OF THE NEO LIBERALS, CORPORATIONS, AND THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT. THIS IS CALLED SCAPEGOATING.

THE ARTICLE BRINGS UP SOME PERFECTLY REASONABLE ISSUES THAT SHOULD BE DISCUSSED; HOWEVER HE TOTALLY INVALIDATED HIS ARGUMENTS BY USING HISTORICALLY RACIST TERMINOLOGY. THATS MY ONLY POINT.

COULTER: Osama bin Laden is D-E-D
dead. No one can convince me
otherwise.

BIN LADEN: occupying himself by
talking to the little girl about the goat
and its butting was more important
than occupying himself with the
planes and their butting of the
skyscrapers.

  

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zewari
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Sun Nov-21-04 12:46 PM

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18. "was that supposed to be a serious response?"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

>SOUTH AFRICA WAS BRUTAL, ISRAEL IS BRUTAL, THE NAZIS WERE
>BRUTAL, COLONIAL SPAIN WAS MORE BRUTAL AS WAS BRITAIN FRANCE
>AND THE FUCKING USA. TO CONTINUE TO HARP ABOUT THE ISRAELIS
>BEING NAZIS IS SO FUCKING NARROW MINDED ITS UNBELIEVABLE.

typing this in all caps doesn't prove ^that^ to be true. and the analogy is between nazis and zionists, not nazis and jews or nazis and the Israeli people.

__________________________

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rubadubdub
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Sun Nov-21-04 04:38 PM

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29. "No it wasn't, it was a gut reaction to your ignorance."
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

Sorry about the caps, but I was quite angry. Let me summarize my points.
There are many better analogies that can be used to explain Zionism, repeatedly calling zionists Nazis is disengenuous. This author uses typical, over the top anti-semetic wording to explain an event that should be able to stand on its own. He brings up the Protocols of the Elders of Zion which immediately invalidates everything he just said. As well, he doesn't make any distinction between Jews and Zionists. Look at the title. After a quick google search it seems he has a history of Jew-baiting and anti-semetic activity which makes his pro-Palestinian activities suspicious. Then again he's just a victim of the Jewish media right?

Here's some perspective on the author of that article, Ernesto Cienfuegos.

This is an article explaining some of cienfuegos' other passtimes, including publishing new editions of the protocols of the elders of zion.
http://www.joesabia.com/article/0051.html

This is where a rabbi calls Cienfuegos out for being a known anti-semite:
http://www.tzemachdovid.org/amechad/ernesto.shtml

Here's where Cienfuegos writes a hateful piece about a jewish real estate magnate:
http://satyricon20.tripod.com/sat45-runway69.htm

This is where he blames the beltway shootings on certain "zionist elements within the CIA": http://www.apfn.org/apfn/DC_sniper.htm


COULTER: Osama bin Laden is D-E-D
dead. No one can convince me
otherwise.

BIN LADEN: occupying himself by
talking to the little girl about the goat
and its butting was more important
than occupying himself with the
planes and their butting of the
skyscrapers.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                                    
zewari
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7113 posts
Sun Nov-21-04 05:04 PM

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30. "I'll respond after finals cause this is bullshit..."
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

...and i don't have time now. in the meantime, brush up on fallacies.

i looked @ this article you described as "hateful". what exactly was hateful about it?? i'd like you to extract the "hateful" aspects of it without your pointless commentary and let other people judge how hateful it is.

http://satyricon20.tripod.com/sat45-runway69.htm

the original article was linked at the bottom:
http://www.aztlan.net/sstein2.htm

Larry Silverstein's coveted deal went down in dust.
Vows to rebuild twin towers
by Ernesto Cienfuegos
La Voz de Aztlan

Los Angeles, Alta California - September 16, 2001 (ACN) A Jewish Real Estate Magnate won a coveted 99 year lease on the World Trade Center from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey less than two months before they were leveled to the ground by terrorists. Silverstein is a wheeler and dealer of downtown New York skyscrapers and owns a large real estate portfolio including 1 World Trade Center and allegedly the infamous "Runway 69" Queens dance club that has been tied to the heroin trade, money laundering and New York Police corruption.

Silverstein, past president of the United Jewish Appeal in New York, received a very sweet deal for the World Trade Center from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. He received the 99 year lease worth $8 billion for a mere $3.2 billion. Silvestein has immense influence over politicians and government bureaucrats and this has helped him and his friends take control of coveted real estate in Manhattan.

It is estimated that about 5,000 workers died when the city's tallest structures collapsed after being hit by two passenger jet airlines commandeered by terrorists. Silverstein wants to start rebuilding the structures according to Steve Solomon, his spokesman, however four employees of Silverstein's company who worked in the firm's management office on the 88th floor of the tower known as 1 World Trade Center have not been accounted for.

In July 1993, Harry P.Miller, a Vietnam veteran, filed a complaint in a federal district court of New York against Larry Silverstein, the alleged owner of "Runway 69," a Queens dance club, that included as defendants President Clinton and Colin Powell. The allegations of Miller's complaint were that the named defendants committed or aided others in committing illegal acts, including assassinations, over a twenty-five year period, beginning amidst the Vietnam War, in furtherance of a conspiracy to distribute Laotian heroin. He asserted that the defendants were engaged in heroin trafficking and that "Goldfingers International," a business that supplies nude dancers to nude dance clubs, was laundering the proceeds of the conspiracy through "Runway 69." Miller alleged that the proceeds were used for such purposes as covering up the "political scandals" and buying the "cooperation" of the NYC Police Department.

In April 1993, Miller commenced his action in state court. The action was subsequently removed to the district court and in July 1993, Miller filed an amended complaint, which incorporates his first complaint.

Based on his allegations, Miller asked for $49 million in damages as well as a myriad of court orders, such as one providing that "no President or officer of the United States of America has ever been authorized to order the death of any person without due process of war or law" and that "no executive order of the President can provide due process for assassinations."

In January 1994, all of the defendants moved to dismiss Miller's complaint. In a 28-page order, the court granted each of the defendants' motions and dismissed all of Miller's claims pursuant to Fed.R.Civ.P. 12(b) however Miller appealed to the United States Court of Appeals, Second Circuit. On September 9, 1997 in case No. 96-6303 Judge Edward R. Korman, United States District Judge for the Eastern District of New York affirmed the lower court's decision and the entire case was buried. The case was never reported in the mainstream media and a host of questions still remain unanswered.

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rubadubdub
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Sun Nov-21-04 05:18 PM

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31. "Did you even go to the other sites?"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

Yeah, we all have other shit to do, except that you posted a pretty awful article and I have to respond to it. Here's what a rabbi has to say about this guy. And Im sorry if this is an ad hominem attack but I'm really not trying to debate you on the greater issues of the article. My problem with it is that it has anti-semetic undertones. The guy who wrote it is an anti-semite, deal with it. Maybe you aren't, I dont care, but this guy definitely is.

YES, ERNESTO,THERE IS A JEWISH PLOT

Rabbi Avi Shafran


When, confronted several years ago with the titles of several new Japanese books about Jewish plots to subjugate mankind, I said okay, so there are Japanese who hate Jews even though they've never met one but I bet there aren't any Mexican anti-Semites, I spoke too soon.

Meet the "Aztlan Communication Network." It is the teratoid brainchild of one Ernesto Cienfuegos, a Mexican-American every bit as fixated upon - and hateful of - Jews as any white supremacist, Islamist or Nazi.

He's every bit as unintentionally funny, too. One conspiracy he prides himself on having fearlessly exposed is the "Jewish tax" that inheres, hidden in plain sight from unsuspecting Gentiles, in secret code on food packaging. Long familiar to Hebrews of traditional bent, the various kosher symbols (the popular "u" inscribed in an "o" that is a trademark of the Orthodox Union, as well as myriad graphic riffs on the letter "k") are indications that the product so marked was produced under the supervision of a rabbi expert in the intricacies of both kosher law and food science.

Companies pay for the service, of course, as they do for the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval (which requires that one advertise in a magazine) or, indirectly (through increased manufacturing costs) for the right to call their products "organic" or "all natural." To Mr. Cienfuegos, however, the arrangement is decidedly unkosher; it smacks, to his fuzzy lights, of a sinister bilking of innocent non-Jews. If companies pay for a rabbi's service, he unreasons, the cost must be passed on... secretly, of course... to consumers.

In 1975, The New York Times reported that the cost to General Foods for rabbinical supervision of its "Bird's Eye" products worked out to .0000065 of a cent per item. A Heinz Company representative maintained that its kosher labeling actually decreases the cost of items by increasing the market for them - the only rational reason a company would choose to pay for such a service.

Nor is Mr. Cienfuegos compelled to buy one brand of gefilte fish over another. If the kosher item proves more expensive, he can simply opt for one that hasn't been supervised by a rabbi (which one imagines he would probably prefer in any event).

Anti-Semites, though, don't like to be confused by facts; they have bigger things to do, like sowing hatred and suspicion. And any energy Mr. Cienfuegos has left after exposing nefarious Jewish conspiracies is put to use pushing the Palestinian cause, largely by presenting graphic accounts and images of Arab injuries and deaths suffered as the result of Israeli military force.

Curiously missing are depictions of the results of Arab violence, nor any consideration of the fact that innocent Arab casualties are unintentional and regretted, the result of a defensive war of survival; and Israeli ones the result of premeditated, cruel and gleeful acts of murder fueled by hatred.

The very hatred, in fact, that animates Mr. Cienfuegos and company.

That's what's so intriguing about Jew-hatred. It's so... adaptable. Much of it, over history, has been of a racial nature; but much of it, too, rooted in religion; some of it has been political; and some, almost personal. The mark, though, has been the same.

Most folks connected even rudimentarily to reality realize that there are no Elders of Zion (at least none who aspire to world control), and no Jews who murder Christians to mix their blood into matzohs. And yet, millions keep even those myths alive (not to mention add new ones, like Jewish recruitment of Arab innocents to fly planes into buildings). And then there are less blatant, perhaps, but more insidious Jewish crimes... like kosher symbols.

While the surprising eruptions of anti-Semitism in unexpected places and the sheer creativity and irrepressibility of Jew-hatred are rightful causes of concern for us Jews, there is also something curiously invigorating about it all.

For it points to what underlies Jew-hatred: the suspicion that the Jewish people are special.

However odd it might seem of God, He did indeed deign to choose the Jews. In other words, yes, Ernesto, there is a plot (though not a conspiracy; there's only one Plotter).

What anti-Semites don't know, though, is that the Jewish mission isn't to subjugate but rather to educate. Keep it under your hat, but Jews are charged with living lives of holiness, of service to God and man.

That includes prayer, charity and acts of kindness, study of holy texts and meticulous honesty in all our dealings - as well as a multitude of ritual matters, like eating kosher food. No, Ernesto, it doesn't include undermining society or the domination of others.

One day, G-d willing - likely when we Jews shoulder our mission with more passion and determination - those who labor so hard to hate us will come to realize that our specialness was never a threat to them at all, but a gift.


COULTER: Osama bin Laden is D-E-D
dead. No one can convince me
otherwise.

BIN LADEN: occupying himself by
talking to the little girl about the goat
and its butting was more important
than occupying himself with the
planes and their butting of the
skyscrapers.

  

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zewari
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Sun Nov-21-04 05:22 PM

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32. "answer the question"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

i didn't read the others because you are jumping all over the board and mixing and matching issues to suit your illogical arguments, and i didn't feel motivated to kill more time on it.

how was that one article i posted above that you claimed to be hateful... actually hateful??

_¸»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«SiG»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«¸_



“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice. Remember, God is the best of Protectors and well acquainted with all that you do.”
-Qur’an 4:135

"Don't be deceived when they tell you things are better now. Even if there's no poverty to be seen because the poverty's been hidden. Even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which industries foist on you and even if it seems to you that you never had so much, that is only the slogan of those who still have much more than you. Don't be taken in when they paternally pat you on the shoulder and say that there's no inequality worth speaking of and no more reason to fight because if you believe them they will be completely in charge in their marble homes and granite banks from which they rob the people of the world under the pretence of bringing them culture. Watch out, for as soon as it pleases them they'll send you out to protect their gold in wars whose weapons, rapidly developed by servile scientists, will become more and more deadly until they can with a flick of the finger tear a million of you to pieces."
--Jean Paul Marat, 18th Century French Visionary (and revolutionary), murdered in his bathtub by Royalist Charlotte Corday


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rubadubdub
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Sun Nov-21-04 05:54 PM

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34. "RE: answer the question"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

It's hateful because it singles the subject out as a Jew when that has absolutely no bearing on the story. Read the rest of his stuff, it's a recurring pattern on that site.

COULTER: Osama bin Laden is D-E-D
dead. No one can convince me
otherwise.

BIN LADEN: occupying himself by
talking to the little girl about the goat
and its butting was more important
than occupying himself with the
planes and their butting of the
skyscrapers.

  

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zewari
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Sun Nov-21-04 05:56 PM

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35. "do better."
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

>It's hateful because it singles the subject out as a Jew
>when that has absolutely no bearing on the story. Read the
>rest of his stuff, it's a recurring pattern on that site.

the article mentioning the fact that "the subject" is Jewish does not make it hateful. are you honest enough to admit that?

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rubadubdub
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Sun Nov-21-04 06:21 PM

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38. "Do better?"
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

Yes it is hateful. It's mild compared to alot of the other shit on that site. As part of a pattern it is most definitely hateful. The site singles out Jews as legitimate targets, claiming that there's a Jewish conspiracy behind everything, from the beltway snipers, the war in Iraq, to raising grocery prices.


COULTER: Osama bin Laden is D-E-D
dead. No one can convince me
otherwise.

BIN LADEN: occupying himself by
talking to the little girl about the goat
and its butting was more important
than occupying himself with the
planes and their butting of the
skyscrapers.

  

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zewari
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Sun Nov-21-04 06:25 PM

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39. "you said that specific article was HATEFUL..."
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

... and the best justification you could come up with is that it mentions the subject's religion?

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insanejake
Member since Feb 18th 2003
4885 posts
Sun Nov-21-04 03:11 PM

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27. "Co sign this guy"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

n/m

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

  

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shamgodwells
Member since Mar 26th 2003
12 posts
Tue Mar-08-05 02:20 PM

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124. "RE: the Nazi comparison is completely valid"
In response to Reply # 10


          

Zewari you obsessed with this shit...always posting some shit to stir up emotion. Thats cool on the internet, ya know, cuz you would get dropped with the quickness in person...faggot

  

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zewari
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Tue Mar-08-05 03:24 PM

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126. "look @ this tough guy here."
In response to Reply # 124


  

          



_¸»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«SiG»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«¸_



“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice. Remember, God is the best of Protectors and well acquainted with all that you do.”
-Qur’an 4:135

"Don't be deceived when they tell you things are better now. Even if there's no poverty to be seen because the poverty's been hidden. Even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which industries foist on you and even if it seems to you that you never had so much, that is only the slogan of those who still have much more than you. Don't be taken in when they paternally pat you on the shoulder and say that there's no inequality worth speaking of and no more reason to fight because if you believe them they will be completely in charge in their marble homes and granite banks from which they rob the people of the world under the pretence of bringing them culture. Watch out, for as soon as it pleases them they'll send you out to protect their gold in wars whose weapons, rapidly developed by servile scientists, will become more and more deadly until they can with a flick of the finger tear a million of you to pieces."
--Jean Paul Marat, 18th Century French Visionary (and revolutionary), murdered in his bathtub by Royalist Charlotte Corday


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insanejake
Member since Feb 18th 2003
4885 posts
Sat Nov-20-04 03:40 PM

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8. "How can I take you seriously"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

when you post shit like this?

>Perhaps it is time to revisit and read "The Protocols of the >Learned Elders of Zion".

Im offended. Seriously.

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

  

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zewari
Charter member
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Sat Nov-20-04 08:10 PM

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11. "read response #10"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

_¸»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«SiG»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«¸_



“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice. Remember, God is the best of Protectors and well acquainted with all that you do.”
-Qur’an 4:135

"Don't be deceived when they tell you things are better now. Even if there's no poverty to be seen because the poverty's been hidden. Even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which industries foist on you and even if it seems to you that you never had so much, that is only the slogan of those who still have much more than you. Don't be taken in when they paternally pat you on the shoulder and say that there's no inequality worth speaking of and no more reason to fight because if you believe them they will be completely in charge in their marble homes and granite banks from which they rob the people of the world under the pretence of bringing them culture. Watch out, for as soon as it pleases them they'll send you out to protect their gold in wars whose weapons, rapidly developed by servile scientists, will become more and more deadly until they can with a flick of the finger tear a million of you to pieces."
--Jean Paul Marat, 18th Century French Visionary (and revolutionary), murdered in his bathtub by Royalist Charlotte Corday


__________________________

www.supportblackowned.org

  

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insanejake
Member since Feb 18th 2003
4885 posts
Sun Nov-21-04 06:03 AM

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14. "How does that make it any less offensive?"
In response to Reply # 11
Sun Nov-21-04 06:07 AM

  

          

Im a reasonable person, but this shit makes me angry.

Dont bother responding to my replies or my posts. Seriously. This and the henry ford shit is a step too far.

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

  

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zewari
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Sun Nov-21-04 10:16 AM

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16. "you are reacting emotionally and illogically"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

>Im a reasonable person, but this shit makes me angry.

First off, I did not post this article to argue the authenticity of the Protocols. I posted it to illustrate the global suppression of anti-zionist dissent.

>Dont bother responding to my replies or my posts. Seriously.
>This and the henry ford shit is a step too far.

As for the Henry Ford article, I posted it becuase I felt it provided many references to articles and books written by prominent zionists. I stated before that I disagreed with his tone and categorical bias, but that I found he raised very interesting points. You, as a rational person, should learn to separate facts from opinions and be capable of extracting the relevent points raised in Ford's papers.

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insanejake
Member since Feb 18th 2003
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Sun Nov-21-04 01:26 PM

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19. "Read Mein Kampf"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

there are some pretty interesting points to be gleaned from that. Read some Klan literature. There is some decent scientific data to be gained from Menglers experiments as well.

The reason this is emotive is because some people in my family still bear the scars of the holocaust. They were killed because the germans found it easy to believe shit that was peddled by the likes of Ford and those racist fucks who wrote the protocols. The fact that you are posting these at all frightens me. Im not surpressing anti-zionist feeling, I read the Guardian for fucks sake.

Im sure the Crusaders believed this sort of shit about muslims then.

This is similar to posting the 'anthropology' done by slavers and saying there is legitimate stuff to be learnt from it. Thats as maybe, but no one on this site wants to read about it.

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

  

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zewari
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Sun Nov-21-04 01:46 PM

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20. "incomparable."
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

you are reacting off of shear emotion. again...

1. this article wasn't posted to validate the protocols. it was posted to show how one Spanish town's effort at protesting Ariel Sharon's government was stiffled by zionist influence.

2. the Henry Ford piece cannot be compared to Mein Kompf. you're making a fallacious association in arguing that point

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insanejake
Member since Feb 18th 2003
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Sun Nov-21-04 01:56 PM

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21. "How so?"
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

>you are reacting off of shear emotion. again...
>
That isnt how you spell sheer, and I have a reason to be emotional.

>1. this article wasn't posted to validate the protocols. it
>was posted to show how one Spanish town's effort at
>protesting Ariel Sharon's government was stiffled by zionist
>influence.

Inside the article were various anti-jewish statements, culminating in referring people back to that classic piece of anti-semitism: "the protocols" which you said people should read as there was information to be taken from it. Im saying, there is information to be taken from a lot of things. Why pick the most offensive ones you can find?

>
>2. the Henry Ford piece cannot be compared to Mein Kompf.
>you're making a fallacious association in arguing that point

Nope, Im saying what I said before. Bring up known anti-semites and racists and you discredit your own point. Now you can argue the toss all you like, you have offended me. That is an emotional thing. People in my family died as a result of the sorts of shit you are peddling now. Have you ever been to Palestine? Do you know any Israelis? Any Palestinians? Any Holocaust survivors? I have been there, I know people from all of those groups. If you like, I can get them all to come here and post that what you are saying is offensive and innapropriate. I think an apology is in order, and I think that you should consider what you post a bit harder.

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

  

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zewari
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Sun Nov-21-04 02:37 PM

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23. "read again."
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

I was clearly referring to Henry Ford's papers when I said there were FULLY CITED references to very interesting JEWISH SOURCES that provide valuable insight into understanding the subject. By Jewish sources, I mean articles and books and speech experts by Jews regarding zionism. I made no mention of the protocols as being such a source. Don't twist my words (intentionally or otherwise).

>>2. the Henry Ford piece cannot be compared to Mein Kompf.
>>you're making a fallacious association in arguing that point
>
>Nope, Im saying what I said before. Bring up known
>anti-semites and racists and you discredit your own point.
>Now you can argue the toss all you like, you have offended
>me. That is an emotional thing. People in my family died as
>a result of the sorts of shit you are peddling now.

Man seriously shut the fuck up with this accusation of me peddling anything. I understand why this is an emotional subject for you and everything, but that doesn't excuse you from the mistake of illogically assuming I support everything in this article or the Henry Ford piece 100%. Don't substitute the words in either articles to be representative of my opinions. It might help you to get a second opinion as to what little I HAVE WRITTEN on the Henry Ford papers to balance your emotionally dictated perceptions. I don't post here to seek respect or validation from you or anyone else on these forums, so telling me I've lost yours doesn't affect me in anyway, but thanks for informing me nonetheless. I post what I do to share information that is otherwise overlooked, and the main reason why I posted this article was because it reported the suppression of one Spanish city's visible protest against Ariel Sharon's government. Does that mean I endorse 100% of everything that's written in the piece? NO. But again, I've read the Aztlan before and I've seen their position on the Protocols, so my understanding of the author's context in it was to say that the actions of the Israeli government in this Spanish town and Mexico City (when Mossad agents were busted plotting to blow up the Mexican parliament) lives up to the course of action endorsed by the assumedly unauthenticated Protocols. Its sorta like how a lot of people in the U.S. would make references to Willie Lynch to elaborate on the systematic oppression of black people (even though the Willie Lynch speech's was proven to be false). Despite the article's author's intentions, do I agree with what he wrote? No.

And not that this matters but i'll answer your questions anyway.

>Have you ever been to Palestine?

No. I have close friends who are peace activists that are there now.

>Do you know any Israelis?

Yes. Many, including former soldiers in the IDF. I had a roomate who was a former IDF commando that had trained IDF soldiers, and had personally been involved in numerous raids. I also know several former soldiers who've fought in the 6-day war and the so-called "war for independence".

>Any Palestinians?

Yes. Many.

>Any Holocaust survivors?

Three.

>I have been there, I
>know people from all of those groups. If you like, I can get
>them all to come here and post that what you are saying is
>offensive and innapropriate. I think an apology is in order,
>and I think that you should consider what you post a bit
>harder.

I am not going to appologize for anything I've done unless I've offended anyone with my own words and/or actions. If you're hypersensitivity leads you to take offense over people POSTING ARTICLES, then you need to get over yourself. This is BULLSHIT and once you let it sink in, you'll realize it too. The ONLY WAY I would ever appologize is if I've ever said/written or behaved in any manner that is unequivocally bigotted.

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insanejake
Member since Feb 18th 2003
4885 posts
Sun Nov-21-04 03:00 PM

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25. "RE: read again."
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

>I was clearly referring to Henry Ford's papers when I said
>there were FULLY CITED references to very interesting JEWISH
>SOURCES that provide valuable insight into understanding the
>subject. By Jewish sources, I mean articles and books and
>speech experts by Jews regarding zionism. I made no mention
>of the protocols as being such a source. Don't twist my
>words (intentionally or otherwise).

Nope, the Ford piece, you asked me to justify why I felt it was offensive, despite the obvious lies and hatred in it. You said you felt the paper revealed some interesting points. I doubt those were about how anti-semitic he is.

>
>>>2. the Henry Ford piece cannot be compared to Mein Kompf.
>>>you're making a fallacious association in arguing that point
>>
>>Nope, Im saying what I said before. Bring up known
>>anti-semites and racists and you discredit your own point.
>>Now you can argue the toss all you like, you have offended
>>me. That is an emotional thing. People in my family died as
>>a result of the sorts of shit you are peddling now.
>
>Man seriously shut the fuck up with this accusation of me
>peddling anything.

You are selling this article like its the truth, and had the nerve to ask where the heavily anti-semitic undertones where.

I understand why this is an emotional
>subject for you and everything, but that doesn't excuse you
>from the mistake of illogically assuming I support
>everything in this article or the Henry Ford piece 100%.

How can you support any of it when these people are making assertions like this? Do you support ANYTHING the Nazi's stood for? Or the Klan?

>Don't substitute the words in either articles to be
>representative of my opinions.

Your opinion it seems to me is that Zionism equated to Nazism. Now for me, that is offensive, as I percieve Zionism as the Jews wanting their own homeland. That in itself is not an intriniscly racist or genocidal opinion and it is one I stand by.

It might help you to get a
>second opinion as to what little I HAVE WRITTEN on the Henry
>Ford papers to balance your emotionally dictated
>perceptions.

I did, someone else posted explaining why it was racist hateful anti-jewish propoganda. I will paste it here for you cos you clearly didnt read it through the first time

"What are you thinking man? Really? I don't think anyone here should have to go through Henry Ford's calculated assault on the Jewish people to find what they deem offensive or garbage. If anything, the burden of proof is on you, considering that Henry Ford was a Nazi sympathizer. I did however, read up on the Jew destroying baseball. How can you take any of this seriously? And if you choose to read that part, keep in mind that Harry Frazee, the man who bought the Red Sox and eventually sold Babe Ruth wasn't Jewish at all. In the end, the Dearborn Independent's charges that he was the protagonist in The International Protocols of the Elders of Zion ran the poor guy out of Boston. What does shit like this bring to the table when it comes to solving problems in the Middle East? Anything? Anything at all? Really now, just start bringing out links to Mein Kampf and the Turner Diaries while you're at it, because Lord knows those are "interesting"."

I don't post here to seek respect or validation
>from you or anyone else on these forums, so telling me I've
>lost yours doesn't affect me in anyway, but thanks for
>informing me nonetheless.

So why make these replies?


Does that mean I endorse 100% of
>everything that's written in the piece? NO. But again, I've
>read the Aztlan before and I've seen their position on the
>Protocols, so my understanding of the author's context in it
>was to say that the actions of the Israeli government in
>this Spanish town and Mexico City (when Mossad agents were
>busted plotting to blow up the Mexican parliament) lives up
>to the course of action endorsed by the assumedly
>unauthenticated Protocols.

The term "assumedly" is offensive. The world and his dog knows it is a fake. Find a piece of bullshit propoganda and then find the evidence to fit round it. Jews do bad things, sure. Whites do bad things, sure. Blacks do bad things sure. Muslims do bad things. How does posting this evil shit help anyone? Its like Suave Bro posting off one of his anti muslim sites...

Its sorta like how a lot of
>people in the U.S. would make references to Willie Lynch to
>elaborate on the systematic oppression of black people (even
>though the Willie Lynch speech's was proven to be false).
>Despite the article's author's intentions, do I agree with
>what he wrote? No.
>

So why make out that you do agree with it and defend his bullshit analogies and comparisons?


>>Do you know any Israelis?
>
>Yes. Many, including former soldiers in the IDF. I had a
>roomate who was a former IDF commando that had trained IDF
>soldiers, and had personally been involved in numerous
>raids. I also know several former soldiers who've fought in
>the 6-day war and the so-called "war for independence".

Well they did have to fight a war to be independant.... And all Israelis served in the army. Did you constantly thrust this shite upon them as well?

>>Any Palestinians?
>
>Yes. Many.

Do you ask them about suicide bombings and anti-jewish propoganda? Or do you just reserve judgement for the Jews?

>
>>Any Holocaust survivors?
>
>Three.
>

And do you dare tell these people that they are Nazis for being zionists?


>I am not going to appologize for anything I've done unless
>I've offended anyone with my own words and/or actions.

You have.

If
>you're hypersensitivity leads you to take offense over
>people POSTING ARTICLES, then you need to get over yourself.

It seems like you too are emotional now. What makes you any better than Suave Bro?

>This is BULLSHIT and once you let it sink in, you'll realize
>it too. The ONLY WAY I would ever appologize is if I've ever
>said/written or behaved in any manner that is unequivocally
>bigotted.

Ahem.

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

  

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Xtreme
Member since Jan 30th 2003
802 posts
Sun Nov-21-04 09:06 PM

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41. "what does anti-semtic mean?"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

ya'll fools love throwing words like "anti-semetic" thinking that your making a point.

The word in itself does NOT make sense the only Semetic people left in this world are Arabs, most of the "Jews" in Israel are Eastern European

------------------------------

----------->fuck u laughin at bitch?

------------------------------


He had the Romans fearing revolution
The solution was to take him to court and falsely accuse him
After being murdered by Pilate how can it be

  

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Harmonia
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Mon Nov-22-04 02:54 PM

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65. "even more so..."
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

People confused the word Semitic which was used to describe a branch of languages with an ethnic group. Much similarly is the confusion of Indo-European(Aryan) which is used to described a language branch with an ethnic group.
For the billionth time (but it seems people still dont understand this), language does not always equal an ethnic group.

***************************************

www.twitter.com/MsKianga
http://nativebeadwork.blogspot.com/
'I can't stand Tim McCarver. He has a penchant for making blindingly obvious statements in a self-congratulatory tone' Kyle Lohse

  

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zewari
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Mon Nov-22-04 02:57 PM

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66. "Co-freakin'-sign"
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

That's what i was saying in post #15 too. A Semite, by definition, describes only 5% of the Jews, 100% of the Arabs and Yemenis, and roughly 30% of the Ethiopians. For someone to be anti-semite, they would have to hate all these people.


_¸»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«SiG»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«¸_



“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice. Remember, God is the best of Protectors and well acquainted with all that you do.”
-Qur’an 4:135

"Don't be deceived when they tell you things are better now. Even if there's no poverty to be seen because the poverty's been hidden. Even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which industries foist on you and even if it seems to you that you never had so much, that is only the slogan of those who still have much more than you. Don't be taken in when they paternally pat you on the shoulder and say that there's no inequality worth speaking of and no more reason to fight because if you believe them they will be completely in charge in their marble homes and granite banks from which they rob the people of the world under the pretence of bringing them culture. Watch out, for as soon as it pleases them they'll send you out to protect their gold in wars whose weapons, rapidly developed by servile scientists, will become more and more deadly until they can with a flick of the finger tear a million of you to pieces."
--Jean Paul Marat, 18th Century French Visionary (and revolutionary), murdered in his bathtub by Royalist Charlotte Corday


__________________________

www.supportblackowned.org

  

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Harmonia
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Fri Nov-26-04 04:21 PM

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82. "yup i agree"
In response to Reply # 66


  

          

Semitic languages include not just Hebrew. I'm not sure when the phrase anti-Semitic was coined to describe anti-Jewish behavior, maybe u know?

***************************************

www.twitter.com/MsKianga
http://nativebeadwork.blogspot.com/
'I can't stand Tim McCarver. He has a penchant for making blindingly obvious statements in a self-congratulatory tone' Kyle Lohse

  

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aswahdan
Member since Oct 18th 2004
1696 posts
Sat Nov-20-04 06:50 PM

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9. "this IS a legitimate comparison...."
In response to Reply # 0


          

sharon IS sinister and so is the israeli occupation of Palestine.

  

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zewari
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Sat Nov-20-04 08:34 PM

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12. "Picture and article about the anti-Sharon sign"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          



Spain: Anti-Sharon municipality sign
By HERB KEINON

"Let's stop the animal, Sharon the assassin, stop the neo-Nazis," reads the sign in a Galicia region town.


Along with the local time and temperature, venomous slogans against Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Israel appear on the municipal information board in the northern Spanish town of Oleiros.

"Let's stop the animal, Sharon the assassin, stop the neo-Nazis," reads the bright-red illuminated sign in the town of a few thousand people located in the Galicia region.

Israel's ambassador to Spain, Victor Harel, protested the message in a letter he sent to the Spanish Foreign Ministry on Monday.

Earlier in the day, Harel called the mayor of Oleiros, Angel Garcia Seoane, who said he stands 100 percent behind the message.

According to Harel, Seoane said that he doesn't have anything against Jews, but feels completely differently about the Israeli government, its head, and those who represent it in Spain.

Harel cut short the conversation with the mayor.

The Foreign Ministry in Jerusalem expressed its displeasure to the Spanish Embassy in Tel Aviv.

Bustam Mante, the deputy head of the Spanish Embassy, said, "If it is true that a public official publicly insulted the prime minister then it is totally unacceptable."

Mante said he passed the information he received from Jerusalem on to his ministry in Madrid.

The Israeli Embassy in Madrid received word of the sign from residents of the town who sent the embassy an e-mail and pictures of the sign.

In addition to the sign, the Oleiros municipality is selling on its Web site, for 6, T-shirts with anti-Sharon slogans.

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insanejake
Member since Feb 18th 2003
4885 posts
Sun Nov-21-04 02:00 PM

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22. "Blacks force klan to take down burning cross."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"So unfair" local Klan members say.

Making offensive comparisons does not improve the situation. So stop it.

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

  

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zewari
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7113 posts
Sun Nov-21-04 02:42 PM

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24. "read posts #10 and #15"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

and stop acting like i'm the only person who makes these valid comparisons. there are even many prominent JEWISH RABBIS who oppose zionism that OPENLY draw the comparison. If you are offended by such comparisons, then you should question your dedication to progressive principles

the greatest insult to the legacy of the holocaust is the intellectually dishonest historical amnesia on the part of Israeli supporters and appologists who deny the validity of such a comparison.

_¸»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«SiG»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«¸_



“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice. Remember, God is the best of Protectors and well acquainted with all that you do.”
-Qur’an 4:135

"Don't be deceived when they tell you things are better now. Even if there's no poverty to be seen because the poverty's been hidden. Even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which industries foist on you and even if it seems to you that you never had so much, that is only the slogan of those who still have much more than you. Don't be taken in when they paternally pat you on the shoulder and say that there's no inequality worth speaking of and no more reason to fight because if you believe them they will be completely in charge in their marble homes and granite banks from which they rob the people of the world under the pretence of bringing them culture. Watch out, for as soon as it pleases them they'll send you out to protect their gold in wars whose weapons, rapidly developed by servile scientists, will become more and more deadly until they can with a flick of the finger tear a million of you to pieces."
--Jean Paul Marat, 18th Century French Visionary (and revolutionary), murdered in his bathtub by Royalist Charlotte Corday


__________________________

www.supportblackowned.org

  

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insanejake
Member since Feb 18th 2003
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Sun Nov-21-04 03:05 PM

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26. "Im making a fair analogy"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

just like you.

And surely you can find an analogy that makes your case, but isnt offensive. I disagree with much of what goes on in Israel and the occupied territories. But I still find your comparisons and your choice of sources offensive. You should be able to make a perfectly good case using the BBC and Guardian without resorting to Henry Ford and the Protocols of the Tribe Of Zion.

And while we are here, name the Rabbis? If they exist, they are like black people calling each other slave masters.

Your comparisons help no one.

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

  

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Solarus
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Sun Nov-21-04 03:34 PM

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28. "Actually that analogy was gross"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

Here's why:

1. Afrikan Americans don't have no semblance of nationalism because they have no land.

2. Afrikan Americans don't have an entire country where they run politically, economically and socially.

3. Afrikan Americans don't have a country where they can determine who can become a citizen and who can't.

4. The Klan can and do burn crosses in their own communities/rallies with no repercussions.

5. Afrikan Americans don't get 5 billion dollars a year in free taxpayers money.


Let's not even consider the fact that the Confederate Flag is still in some Southern states flags.

Oh yeah we don't even have a Holocaust (Maafa) museum in the nation's capitol...

Like I said, gross analogy.

Do Better.

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

  

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insanejake
Member since Feb 18th 2003
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Mon Nov-22-04 02:38 AM

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42. "I agree"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

I was using this gross analogy to illustrate how gross the analogies made in this post are.

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

  

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Solarus
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Mon Nov-22-04 03:00 AM

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43. "while i won't comment"
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

on the validity of the other arguments, the fact remains that the analogy u made doesn't compare whatsoever

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

  

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insanejake
Member since Feb 18th 2003
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Mon Nov-22-04 04:18 AM

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44. "Neither does his"
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

that was my point.

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

  

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Solarus
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45. "point taken, however"
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

it would be best to delineate WHY the comparison between nazis and zionist is inaccurate versus saying "I'm offended, seriously."

taking offense doesn't negate the validity of a statement.


show and prove or be quiet.

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

  

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insanejake
Member since Feb 18th 2003
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Mon Nov-22-04 05:11 AM

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46. "I can make an analogy for anything"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

it doesnt make it a good analogy. There is already someone in this post who explained quite why his analogy was shit. Im saying its offensive.

For the record I already did explain that there was nothing intrinsicly racist about the Jews wanting to have their own homeland, hence the innacuracy. I also dont believe that the Israelis are systematically herding palestinains into death camps. I think his interchanging of Jew, Zionist and Israelis is shit. I also think that anyone who brings documents like Henry Ford's or The Protocols into an argument has invalidated what he had to say. Its like me bringing in some bullshit piece of evolutionist anthropology to explain that blacks are genetically stupid. As soon as you see it, you know the argument is over.

The fact that he is seriously posting

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

  

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Solarus
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Mon Nov-22-04 06:26 AM

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48. "RE: I can make an analogy for anything"
In response to Reply # 46


  

          


>For the record I already did explain that there was nothing
>intrinsicly racist about the Jews wanting to have their own
>homeland, hence the innacuracy.

there is an issue of supremacy when someone else was already there. The fact that Argentina was considered as a possible Jewish homeland speaks to this.

>I also dont believe that the
>Israelis are systematically herding palestinains into death
>camps.

I don't think so either.


Besides I don't think the analogy is very accurate myself. I just find it interesting that Jews often invoke Afrikans into the game when they compare oppressions.

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

  

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insanejake
Member since Feb 18th 2003
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Mon Nov-22-04 11:42 AM

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59. "RE: I can make an analogy for anything"
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

>
>>For the record I already did explain that there was nothing
>>intrinsicly racist about the Jews wanting to have their own
>>homeland, hence the innacuracy.
>
>there is an issue of supremacy when someone else was already
>there. The fact that Argentina was considered as a possible
>Jewish homeland speaks to this.

But the IDEA itself is not inherently racist.


>Besides I don't think the analogy is very accurate myself.
>I just find it interesting that Jews often invoke Afrikans
>into the game when they compare oppressions.

I was trying to find the most outrageous analogy that I could in the context.

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

  

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Solarus
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Mon Nov-22-04 03:29 PM

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67. "Yes it is"
In response to Reply # 59


  

          


>>there is an issue of supremacy when someone else was already
>>there. The fact that Argentina was considered as a possible
>>Jewish homeland speaks to this.
>
>But the IDEA itself is not inherently racist.


And this is why I say Jews are still European despite the oppression historically felt from the other members of the European family. Again Argentina makes the most significant point here (because of the lack of the Biblical argument/justification) but modern-day Israel can be used as well. To claim a "homeland" in someone else's home and then make rules about who is allowed to become a citizen and who is not allowed is about as "racist" as one can get. The IDEA itself is problematic because one feels that they can go anywhere and rule without regard to previous inhabitants.

Europe has a history of sending its unwanted citizens to other people's backyard only to find that in a few years, those people are either dead or told that their home is no longer theirs.

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

  

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Nettrice
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Mon Nov-29-04 02:41 PM

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91. "That's it right there"
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

>To claim a "homeland" in someone else's home and then
>make rules about who is allowed to become a citizen and who
>is not allowed is about as "racist" as one can get. The IDEA
>itself is problematic because one feels that they can go
>anywhere and rule without regard to previous inhabitants.

And here...

>Europe has a history of sending its unwanted citizens to
>other people's backyard only to find that in a few years,
>those people are either dead or told that their home is no
>longer theirs.

We (US citizens) can look to the Puritans as an example of this.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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zewari
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Mon Nov-22-04 07:44 AM

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50. "you are LYING"
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

>I think his interchanging of Jew, Zionist and
>Israelis is shit.

first off, I never interchangeably used the word "jew" to substitute for the word "zionist". there are many Jews that share my perspective, and I would never insult their dignity by associating them with zionists. in fact, i am always careful about doing that in order to avoid being misunderstood. stop twisting what I say to suit the illogical conclusions you believe. as for zionism, and learn why some Orthodox Jews oppose that POLITICAL MOVEMENT. you make it sound like zionism just translates to the idea of Jews having a spiritual homeland when that CLEARLY isn't the case.

>I also think that anyone who brings
>documents like Henry Ford's or The Protocols into an
>argument has invalidated what he had to say.

you're being extremely closed minded. its like you just decided to shut down anytime you hear the word "Henry Ford" and refuse to absorb what i've written. its literally pointless.

as for Henry Ford, the reason I asked you to point out the hateful aspects of what he had to say was because I obviously didn't read his entire work. what I did read contained lots of straight quotations from works written by UNDISPUTED JEWISH SOURCES which I found to be interesting. THAT IS ALL I SAID.

as for the Protocols, I won't repeat what i've written something like 4 times already... cause if you dont' get it now, you'll never get it.

__________________________

www.supportblackowned.org

  

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zewari
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Sun Nov-21-04 05:27 PM

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33. "Jewish professor accused of "anti-semitism" by Canadian Jewish Congress"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Yet another example of zionists using the "anti-semitic" boogeyman to stiffle legitimate critique. Imagine what would've happened if the guy was not a Jew... people like rubadubdub would be quick to dismiss this as "nazi style propoganda" because the professor listed the names of the zionist directors of the York University Foundation and their links to pro-Israel organizations... or someone like insanejake will dismiss them as being "self-hating jews" or sellouts (as stated above).



PRITHI YELAJA
STAFF REPORTER

A history professor is demanding an apology from a leading Jewish rights group and York University for what he calls "scurrilous attacks" on his character and attempts to squelch his freedom of speech.

If no apology is forthcoming, David Noble said he'd consider legal action against the Canadian Jewish Congress and York.

The congress has denounced Noble for spreading "anti-Semitic" material on campus.

Noble handed out a memo last week listing the names of the directors of the York University Foundation, the school's fundraising arm, and their links to pro-Israel organizations.

The material, which appears to suggest that a small cabal of Jews runs the foundation, is reminiscent of classic Jewish-conspiracy theories, Bernie Farber, executive director of the congress, said yesterday.

"Not only is this absurd, it reeks of anti-Semitism.... It's bizarre, and if this wasn't coming from an academic, one would laugh it off. The fact that it's coming from an academic should scare people."

Noble, who has taught at York for 15 years and is Jewish, said those comments are worrisome and "deeply offensive to me because my own family has suffered from anti-Semitism."

"When you get these kinds of scurrilous attacks it trivializes anti-Semitism. I guess they didn't do their homework and find out I was Jewish."

There will be no apology, Farber said, arguing Noble can't use that as "a cloak" for his actions.

Noble spontaneously distributed copies of a memo he wrote called "The Tail that Wags the Dog (Suggestions for Further Research)" after a Thursday film screening by the student group Solidarity for Palestinian Human Rights.

It claims the foundation "is biased by the presence and influence of staunch pro-Israel lobbyists, activists and fundraising agencies." Noble asserted yesterday that the foundation is "de facto running York. They clamp down on any criticism of Israel."

Pro-Arab and pro-Israel students separately agreed to denounce Noble's actions.

Rabia Siddiqui of the Solidarity group said it was inappropriate "for anyone to single anyone out because of their race, in any circumstances."

"It is unacceptable for any student to be exposed to this type of bigotry," Dori Borshiov, president of the Jewish group Hillel at York, added in a statement.

A statement by university president Lorna Marsden said "York strongly condemns this highly offensive material," which singles out people "on the basis of their ethnicity and alleged political views."

__________________________

www.supportblackowned.org

  

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rubadubdub
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Sun Nov-21-04 06:12 PM

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36. "RE: Jewish professor accused of "anti-semitism" by Canadian Jewish Congr"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

First off, the CJC are absolutely deplorable in their Israel cheerleading. They regularly stifle debate on Middle Eastern issues by calling people Anti-Semites. They even target student journalists who happen to write articles sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. I know, because I've been targeted. Their actions, like many pro-Zionist groups are absolutely abhorent, often exploiting the tragedy of the holocaust to defame those who would criticise Israel. On that note, Cienfuegos is actually an anti-semite who produces articles that aren't only critical of Israel, but of Jews in general. Add some poor investigative journalism (kosher nostra) to the mix and you've got someone who destroys the credibility of the whole anti-zionist movement. With people like Cienfuegos around the CJC has it easy, they don't have to debate many of the relevant issues he brings up. They can just dismiss him as anti-semetic, which he is.

by the way. I was wondering what you're studying... just curious. esp. cause you know my major

COULTER: Osama bin Laden is D-E-D
dead. No one can convince me
otherwise.

BIN LADEN: occupying himself by
talking to the little girl about the goat
and its butting was more important
than occupying himself with the
planes and their butting of the
skyscrapers.

  

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zewari
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Sun Nov-21-04 06:16 PM

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37. "triple major"
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

environmental engineering, water resource mgmt. and mathematics.

the math degree is sort of a freebie cause i've already taken most of the core courses between the other two programs.

_¸»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«SiG»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«¸_



“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice. Remember, God is the best of Protectors and well acquainted with all that you do.”
-Qur’an 4:135

"Don't be deceived when they tell you things are better now. Even if there's no poverty to be seen because the poverty's been hidden. Even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which industries foist on you and even if it seems to you that you never had so much, that is only the slogan of those who still have much more than you. Don't be taken in when they paternally pat you on the shoulder and say that there's no inequality worth speaking of and no more reason to fight because if you believe them they will be completely in charge in their marble homes and granite banks from which they rob the people of the world under the pretence of bringing them culture. Watch out, for as soon as it pleases them they'll send you out to protect their gold in wars whose weapons, rapidly developed by servile scientists, will become more and more deadly until they can with a flick of the finger tear a million of you to pieces."
--Jean Paul Marat, 18th Century French Visionary (and revolutionary), murdered in his bathtub by Royalist Charlotte Corday


__________________________

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rubadubdub
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Sun Nov-21-04 06:30 PM

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40. "Respect, thats alot of work."
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

I just think your perspective on Zionism and anti-Semetism is a little narrow. I'm apparently not eloquent enough to convince you otherwise, so I'm gonna stop here.

COULTER: Osama bin Laden is D-E-D
dead. No one can convince me
otherwise.

BIN LADEN: occupying himself by
talking to the little girl about the goat
and its butting was more important
than occupying himself with the
planes and their butting of the
skyscrapers.

  

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zewari
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Mon Nov-22-04 07:31 AM

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49. "Ha'aretz: Israel-Nazi comparison is VALID"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          



By Gideon Levy

Contemporary comparisons leap out at you, page after page, day after day, in this diary of mounting horrors in prewar Germany, no matter how vast the differences

"Sippur Shel Germani, 1914-1933" ("Geschichtes eines Deutschen") by Sebastian Haffner, Hebrew translation, notes and epilogue by Shulamit Volkov, Khargol Books, 202 pages, NIS 69



Is there any basis for comparison, however slight, between the rise of the Nazis in Germany and the state of affairs in Israel today? Should we compare? Is it allowable? Is only the Israeli right entitled to use Nazism to set up such historical analogies as Saddam-Hitler, Arafat-Hitler, Udi Adiv's parents-Adolf Eichmann's parents, even Marwan Barghouti-Hitler, or can we do so, too, to the extent that the analogy fits? No honest Israeli can read Sebastian Haffner's book without asking himself these preliminary questions.

I read the book twice. Once while waiting for America to launch its nefarious attack on Iraq, and again as the war raged. Israel's occupation of the territories was at one of its cruelest stages ever, and Israeli public opinion, at one of its most obtuse. "Sippur Shel Germani" ("A German's Story") left me pondering some troubling issues long after I put it down. Contemporary comparisons leap out at you, page after page, day after day, in this diary of mounting horrors, no matter how vast the differences.

Haffner's journal, let us remember, ends in 1933, as the monstrous Nazi regime comes to power - before World War II, before the mass murders, before the most horrifying genocide in history, to which nothing can be compared. It should also be borne in mind that there are different degrees of evil. The fact that the Nazis were the devil incarnate does not mean that other horrors perpetrated by mankind in our world - among them the Israeli occupation - are of no significance.

Even Prof. Shulamit Volkov, who deserves our highest praise for translating this book and making it accessible to the Israeli public, wrote: "After the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, fears for the future of democracy in Israel reawakened. A comparison with the Weimar Republic became unavoidable" ("Minorities and Other Strangers," Am Oved). And no one can accuse Volkov of being an enemy of Israel.

Thus comparing Germany of the 1920s and early `30s to Israel at the start of the third millennium is not only permissible but imperative - for gaining an insight into how barbarous regimes develop, grasping the differences (and there are many profound ones), and discerning the similarities, which ought to worry us.

In this country, we don't execute people for their opinions. We don't even fire them for that reason. There is no ideology supportive of genocide, and even transfer is opposed by the overwhelming majority of Israelis. But we do arrest people without trial. We do throw people who have not been accused of anything into mass detention centers, if not concentration camps. We do keep people locked up in their cities and villages, if not ghettos. We do discriminate between Arabs and Jews in every sphere. We do build roads that only Jews can use and are guilty of violating the most basic human rights - in the territories but also west of them. So why shouldn't we compare? How can we not?

Raimund Pretzel (Sebastian Haffner's nom de plume), born in Berlin in 1907, was just the right age when the Nazis came to power. He was in his twenties, a law student, not a very political person, a member of the middle-class, living in the shadow of portentous events and trying not to take part in them. Like almost everyone of his generation, he could have been swept up in the ugly tide. He could have become an active Nazi, a counsel for the defense of the death industry, a little cog or a big cog. He could have stood on the sidelines, or built a quiet little career for himself and kept his mouth shut, or run away from it all. Or he could have gone to the other extreme and voiced opposition.

For several years, Haffner's choice was clear: to sit still, to hold his nose and carry on. He did not participate in the odious goings-on, but neither did he protest. It is hard to argue with such an approach. Many of his countrymen chose a much viler course of action. Haffner at least registered what was going on around him. He suffered in silence, but suffer he did.

Haffner's choice, until he fled, is the choice of many Israelis. Half an hour from our homes, an entire people lives under lock and key. There are apartheid roads and wholesale assassinations. The killing of innocents has become a matter of routine. Masses of people are arrested without trial and incarcerated in detention camps under the most appalling conditions. But we don't know about it. We don't hear about it. We don't see it. And we don't want to. We want to carry on, living our petty lives as best we can, keeping our heads down.

But Haffner soon realized that he could not go on this way. That, perhaps, is the most important lesson in the book. One cannot remain on the sidelines forever, neither participating nor putting up a fight, just sitting on the proverbial fence, if only for practical reasons: The mechanism of evil has a way of sucking people in. It swallows all. Even Haffner, the law student, not a Nazi at all, finds himself marching daily behind the swastika-emblazoned flag, in an army uniform and high boots, sporting a Nazi armband, in an ideological indoctrination camp that all law students must attend in order to qualify for their degree.

It was only for a few weeks, and he tried to march on the sidelines, so as not to be directly behind the flag, but he was still a little Nazi, a Nazi for the day. "Until today, my mind reels at the memory. In that scene lies the essence of the Third Reich," writes Haffner in this memoir, penned in 1939, before the horror erupted in full, when he himself was already far away, in another country (he lived in exile in Paris until 1954).

Haffner was clearly not proud of his actions; his heart gave him no rest. Perhaps that is why he shelved the book and it ended up being published only posthumously, in 2000. In Germany, it was an immediate bestseller. Haffner must have had good reason for ending the book with this story of the Nazi training camp. He does not tell us what else he did before going into exile. A refusenik he wasn't. "What should I have said?" he asks himself, as some of us may ask ourselves one day. "If they had suddenly demanded deeds, would I, or someone like me, have known what to do? If war had erupted then and there, and we were sent to the front, just like that, to fight for Hitler - what then? Would I have thrown down my gun and deserted? Would I have turned around and shot the person beside me - the fellow who had helped me clean the gun just yesterday? ... I sighed and forced myself to stop thinking. I realized I was trapped. I should never have come to this camp."

Feeling trapped, he blocks his thoughts and concludes that he should never have been there in the first place. "Maybe I should have objected right away, on the first day, when they distributed the armbands," he writes. "I could have said: `No, I will not put it on,' and trampled the armband under foot. But that would have been crazy. Worse than that, it would have been ridiculous. I would have ended up in a concentration camp instead of Paris, and broken the promise to my father that I would pass my exams."

But Haffner knows the bitter truth, at least in retrospect: "In the back of my mind, there is a little nagging voice. Nothing can help. Whatever you say, that swastika was on your arm." The comparison that begs to be made? The dilemma of whether or not to serve in the territories, to stand at an army checkpoint in the role of the hard-hearted jailer, cruelly keeping women, children, sick and old from getting through - or saying no and being hauled off to prison.

Haffner promised his father he would pass his tests. But the biggest test of them all - the moral test - he passed only in part, even in his own eyes. At the last minute, he jumped off the bandwagon and saved himself from sliding down the slippery slope. It was an individual act of courage, the act of one person in a crowd. If he were proud of his deeds, he would have published the book in his lifetime. If he were ashamed of them, he would have destroyed it. Haffner was neither the worst of the Germans nor an object of pity. He was a little German, who ran away and did not lend a hand to the approaching Holocaust.

Haffner's book is a brave attempt to explain why he was sucked into the inferno and how he escaped by the skin of his teeth, when it was almost too late. In the end, Haffner's solution - running away - inspires respect. His sincere doubts and misgivings, the reader feels, are those we should rightly expect from all ethical persons.

Haffner explains how his generation grew up on the excitement of war: "A grand, thrilling game, a game between nations that could be deeply satisfying and produce stronger emotions than anything peace could offer - that was the daily experience of ten graduating classes of German school children, and it was this which became the clearest and most basic vision of Nazism."

Did anyone around here notice how excited many people were as the war on Iraq drew near? How the generals sat in television studios, their eyes gleaming, urging America to get moving already, as if they couldn't wait for the action to begin? Haffner writes that opponents of the war were regarded as party- poopers. Sound familiar? And this: "As the war went on for four years, I lost all sense of what peace was."

A word on courage: "Civilian courage, i.e., the courage to reach an individual decision and assume personal responsibility, is a very rare commodity in Germany, as Bismarck once remarked. This type of courage eludes Germans the moment they don a uniform." What about Israelis?

How do we feel, reading a passage like this: "Nowhere was there such a gigantic carnival of death, such a grotesque, blood-soaked festival of saturnalia, in which not only money lost its worth but every human value. The year 1923 prepared the Germans not so much for Nazism as for a nightmarish adventure." And this: "It was heartless insanity and blind, arrogant certainty that led them into the abyss, the belief that `justice is that which serves our aims,' and there is no such word as `impossible.' A nation cannot cross that line and emerge emotionally unscathed."

Haffner describes the "last days of Pompeii" of Germany in the 1920s - how the young people danced and sang, and the rich grew richer, and the number of beggars multiplied. Ring a bell? They, too, had a brief interlude of peace that inspired hope. The Stresemann era, 1924-1929, was something like Oslo: "People went back to living their private lives, cordially invited to conduct their affairs as they saw fit and find their own way of being happy. But then something odd happened. ... The public turned down the invitation. No one was interested."

Haffner misses the years when Berlin was an internationally open city and he even had a Turkish tennis partner. "Every time I think about it, it amazes me. It is hard to say what is more unconceivable today: that such a thing was possible in Berlin only ten years ago, or that it could all disappear without a trace within the span of ten years."

Reading these lines takes me back to the time when Marwan Barghouti and other Palestinian council members flew to Europe together with a group of ten Israeli MKs, among them representatives of Shas and the Likud. That was also less than ten years ago, and today we can hardly imagine it.

"Few things are more ridiculous than the calm, remote manner in which I, and others like me, observed the events around us, as if we were spectators at the theater," writes Haffner - a remark that should prompt some disturbing thoughts in any Israeli with a conscience. Haffner goes on sipping wine with his girlfriend, and when the Nazis evict all his Jewish colleagues from the Supreme Court, he continues to peruse files in the library. Only in hindsight does he ask: "Why didn't anyone get up spontaneously and object? Why didn't they protest, if not against everything, then at least against some specific injustice, some unfair incident that took place in their midst?"

During lunch break, the justices of the Supreme Court continued to chew their sandwiches in silence after greeting the young Nazi judge who had been appointed against their will. They were not bad people; they were just small people. Haffner considered leaving the civil service. He thought about converting to Judaism. But it was all talk. "I went on living in my bubble, like millions of others. I allowed things to go on happening, and they did." Does the fact that he was dealing with much greater atrocities than anything known in this country mean that we are not guilty of the same sin?

Haffner's account of parting from his childhood friend, Frank Landau, is heartrending. He and Landau, a Jew, ran together in events organized by the Old Prussia Sprinting Association. They went to high school and university together. They discussed their love life. They met nearly every day for 17 years, until Haffner came to help Landau pack up and leave, and two Nazi officers appeared at the door.

A news broadcaster disappeared. Jewish actors vanished one by one from the theater. And no one protested. By the autumn of 1933, Haffner's circle of friends was gone. Hassel had left for America; Bruck and Holtz had joined the Nazi party. "I saw people I had been friendly with turn into murderers," he writes.

Haffner devotes a brilliant chapter to friendship, the kind sanctified in blood: "Camaraderie and war are linked. Like alcohol, it is a kind of consolation to those who find themselves in inhuman conditions ... Camaraderie corrupts human beings more than alcohol or opium ... worst of all, camaraderie frees man from responsibility for his own life ... He does what everyone does. He has no choice. He has no time for reflections ... His conscience are `his friends,' and as long as he continues to do what they do, he is assured a full pardon for all his sins."

When, since the appearance of our own Song of Camaraderie , has anyone in this country written anything so blunt and so subversive? Will anything like it ever be written?

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johnny_domino
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56. "you still put a misleading title on this post"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

n/m

  

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zewari
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57. "is that supposed to be a serious comment??"
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

cause you simply making it doesn't mean its true. the article said such comparisons are justified.

it sounds like you're just complaining for the sake of complaining. how on earth is that misleading?? do you even know what mislead means??

mis·lead
tr.v. mis··led, (-ld) mis·lead·ing, mis·leads
1. To lead in the wrong direction.
2. To lead into error of thought or action, especially by intentionally deceiving.

how did my subject line intentionally misdirected YOU "into error or action"?

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johnny_domino
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58. "the title was"
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

"Germans force French city to take down anti-Nazi sign"

and then the article was about a Spanish city being forced to take down their sign by...uh, who exactly? The Sinister Zionist machine? Or I guess really, by the Spanish foreign minister? But regardless, it has nothing to do with either France or Germany.

  

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zewari
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60. "its called symbollism."
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

and i thought you were responding to the Ha'aretz article.

_¸»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«SiG»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«¸_



“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice. Remember, God is the best of Protectors and well acquainted with all that you do.”
-Qur’an 4:135

"Don't be deceived when they tell you things are better now. Even if there's no poverty to be seen because the poverty's been hidden. Even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which industries foist on you and even if it seems to you that you never had so much, that is only the slogan of those who still have much more than you. Don't be taken in when they paternally pat you on the shoulder and say that there's no inequality worth speaking of and no more reason to fight because if you believe them they will be completely in charge in their marble homes and granite banks from which they rob the people of the world under the pretence of bringing them culture. Watch out, for as soon as it pleases them they'll send you out to protect their gold in wars whose weapons, rapidly developed by servile scientists, will become more and more deadly until they can with a flick of the finger tear a million of you to pieces."
--Jean Paul Marat, 18th Century French Visionary (and revolutionary), murdered in his bathtub by Royalist Charlotte Corday


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johnny_domino
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61. "that's a bullshit defense"
In response to Reply # 60
Mon Nov-22-04 11:56 AM

  

          

if the article's strong enough to stand on its own, post it with its real title, or one that paraphrases it (and no, your title did not paraphrase the real title)

Honestly, these kinds of shock tactics on your part doesn't change anybody's mind either way, it just gets everyone more riled up and dug in to their own position. As strongly as you feel about it, it reads like you're just preaching to yourself and the converted.

  

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zewari
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62. "I'm not defending anything cause there's nothing to defend"
In response to Reply # 61


  

          

I posted that title because I believe the symbollic parallel is valid and I have posted my reasons why, as well as numerous prominent Jewish sources (from Orthodox rabbis to leading Jewish intellectuals like Einstein) who made the same comparison between the Nazi party and zionists. If you disagree with that parallel being drawn, then it either reflects your ignorance of the reasons why such a comparison was/is being drawn or your personal bias against demarcating Israel's behavior along the lines of the fascist Nazis. The initial subject was meant to allude to the repetition of historical attrocities that the international community vowed would never happen again. The obvious irony that zionists are mimicking the tactics of the Nazis was therefore highlighted by my subject line. Your baseless "critique" is the only BULLSHIT here. If you disagree with the analogy, then post your reasons why.

Otherwise...

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johnny_domino
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63. "because you didn't post it as an analogy"
In response to Reply # 62
Mon Nov-22-04 12:30 PM

  

          

you posted it as (misleading)fact

This is Activist, not Freestyle.

Needing petty tricks like that to up the number of views shows you don't have enough confidence in the facts, and insults everyone's intelligence.

Yes, extreme, hard-line Zionism is used to justify atrocities and the charge of anti-Semitism is sometimes employed to stifle dissenting opinions. Is it so tough to get that across without using "symbolic" hyperbole?

  

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zewari
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64. "the analogy was freakin' OBVIOUS"
In response to Reply # 63


  

          

you are seriously being an herb. get a second opinion.

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johnny_domino
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68. "I have 3 more"
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

that back me up

Just look at the top of the thread

  

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zewari
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69. "yeah... ok"
In response to Reply # 68


  

          

i'm being sarcastic, btw - since you seem to have a need for the obvious being pointed out

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johnny_domino
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70. "well it read kinda like bitterness"
In response to Reply # 69


  

          

sarcasm doesn't come around to Activist too often

  

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zewari
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51. "Einstein & 27 prominent Jews compared zionists to Nazis"
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Nov-22-04 08:10 AM

  

          

1948 Letter Signed By Einstein on the Creation of Israel
Letters to the New York Times December 4, 1948

To the editors of the New York Times:

Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party" (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.

The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin's political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.

Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin's behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement.

The public avowals of Begin's party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.

Attack on Arab Village

A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (The New York Times), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants - 240 men, women, and children - and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.

The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.

Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of
ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model. During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute. The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.

Discrepancies Seen

The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a "Leader State" is the goal.

In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin's efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin. The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.

(signed)

Isidore Abramowitz, Hannah Arendt, Abraham Brick, Rabbi Jessurun Cardozo, Albert Einstein, Herman Eisen, M.D., Hayim Fineman, M. Gallen, M.D., H.H. Harris, Zelig S. Harris, Sidney Hook, Fred Karush, Bruria Kaufman, Irma L. Lindheim, Nachman Maisel, Seymour Melman, Myer D. Mendelson, M.D., Harry M. Oslinsky, Samuel Pitlick, Fritz Rohrlich, Louis P. Rocker, Ruth Sagis, Itzhak Sankowsky, I.J. Shoenberg, Samuel Shuman, M. Singer, Irma Wolfe, Stefan Wolfe

New York, Dec. 2, 1948

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zewari
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52. "Rabbi Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandl asks 10 questions to zionists"
In response to Reply # 51


  

          



1. IS IT TRUE that in 1941 and again in 1942, the German Gestapo offered all European Jews transit to Spain, if they would relinquish all their property in Germany and Occupied France; on condition that:
a) none of the deportees travel from Spain to Palestine; and

b) all the deportees be transported from Spain to the USA or British colonies, and there to remain; with entry visas to be arranged by the Jews living there; and

c) $1000.00 ransom for each family to be furnished by the Agency, payable upon the arrival of the family at the Spanish border at the rate of 1000 families daily.

2. IS IT TRUE that the Zionist leaders in Switzerland and Turkey received this offer with the clear understanding that the exclusion of Palestine as a destination for the deportees was based on an agreement between the Gestapo and the Mufti.

3. IS IT TRUE that the answer of the Zionist leaders was negative, with the following comments:
a) ONLY Palestine would be considered as a destination for the deportees.

b) The European Jews must accede to suffering and death greater in measure than the other nations, in order that the victorious allies agree to a "Jewish State" at the end of the war.

c) No ransom will be paid

4.IS IT TRUE that this response to the Gestapo's offer was made with the full knowledge that the alternative to this offer was the gas chamber.

5. IS IT TRUE that in 1944, at the time of the Hungarian deportations, a similar offer was made, whereby all Hungarian Jewry could be saved.

6.IS IT TRUE that the same Zionist hierarchy again refused this offer (after the gas chambers had already taken a toll of millions).

7. IS IT TRUE that during the height of the killings in the war, 270 Members of the British Parliament proposed to evacuate 500,000 Jews from Europe, and resettle them in British colonies, as a part of diplomatic negotiations with Germany.

8. IS IT TRUE that this offer was rejected by the Zionist leaders with the observation "Only to Palestine!"

9. IS IT TRUE that the British government granted visas to 300 rabbis and their families to the Colony of Mauritius, with passage for the evacuees through Turkey. The "Jewish Agency" leaders sabotaged this plan with the observation that the plan was disloyal to Palestine, and the 300 rabbis and their families should be gassed.

10. IS IT TRUE that during the course of the negotiations mentioned above, Chaim Weitzman, the first "Jewish statesman" stated: "The most valuable part of the Jewish nation is already in Palestine, and those Jews living outside Palestine are not too important". Weitzman's cohort, Greenbaum, amplified this statement with the observation "One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Europe".

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zewari
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53. "Collection of statements from Rabbis AGAINST zionism"
In response to Reply # 51


  

          


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zewari
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54. "Rabbi Mordechai Gifter: ZIONISTS ARE MURDERERS"
In response to Reply # 53


  

          



Excerpts:
We know the truth. The truth is that Zionism is a curse, and that's the way it is. Zionism is murder! And that's what it really is, because it is true! Who threw the Jews into the ocean when they wanted to travel to Eretz Yisroel in 1941? Who sank the boat (called the 'Patria') with about 1000 Jews on it? Who? The Nazis? Zionists did it! Yes, the Zionists! What is that? Is it not murder? Murderers!! Because of Zionism, one is allowed to kill Jews? Didn't these murderers say that the Jews of Europe are the "sacrifices" which we have to bring to have a Jewish "state" in Eretz Yisroel (G-d forbid)? Didn't they say this? Don't they have printed black and white statements which everybody can read? Didn't this man with the name, "Yitzchok Greenbaum" say in Warsaw that all religious Jews should be thrown into the ocean? And all this because of Zionism! And he wasn't ashamed of these words! I ask you: Is this right? Is this being nice? Is this grace? This is MURDER! Without any excuse, it is murder! G-d comes and punishes us, and He says to us that if we brought up in our midst such and Esau - one who is against Torah, against religion, against everything a Jew is - then we suggest a hint to the world, and it calls us Racists, Murderers, Terrorists! We are called murderers, who kill women and children. The Gentiles say this and it makes an impression on us, and we scream. How terrible! How can they speak this way about the Jewish people?

But it's interesting. They don't say that Jews are murderers. Only Zionists are murderers. This is an awesome thing. That repeats itself thousands of times and it doesn't stop. Some make protests. They write articles in the newspapers. They go to Washington to explain to the President of the United States what Zionism means - and that G-d forbid it's not this way - but we know the truth: Zionism says and Zionism actually does with its own hands the killing of Jews for an "Ideal"! Is it right that one Jew should kill another for an "ideal"? What right do they have to do this - to sink them in the ocean? Did you ever hear such stories as those that Jews forget and don't want to know? Yet this is what is being spoken from the mouths of the evil ones. They go and tell these stories to the U.N., for the whole world. But, in reality, this is being spoken to us from Heaven. G-d speaks to us, and wants to awaken us, and speaks to us through their mouths. A new language has begun: Therefore, a Jew has to decide why others speak to us in this way. It is only because we are being called into account in Heaven.

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zewari
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Mon Nov-22-04 08:43 AM

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55. "British Jewish MPs liken Gaza to Nazi Ghettos"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          



Press Association
Thursday June 19, 2003

Israel's treatment of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip was today compared to the Nazis' creation of the Warsaw ghetto by MPs who recently returned from the region.
The controversial comparison, drawn by Oona King and Jenny Tonge, will anger the pro-Israel lobby and the visiting Israeli finance minister, Benyamin Netanyahu, who met Tony Blair at Downing Street this morning.

Labour MP Ms King, who is Jewish, said Gaza was "the same in nature" as the infamous Polish ghetto.

"No government should be behaving like that - least of all a Jewish government," the Bethnal Green and Bow MP said.

Ms King and Liberal Democrat MP Dr Tonge were holding a Westminster press conference today following their fact-finding trip.

The pair were caught up in the aftermath of the Israeli gunship assassination attack on a leading Palestinian extremist. A building they were in just minutes earlier was hit in retaliation.

The MPs were also confronted by an Israeli soldier armed with a grenade as they tried to leave the strip.

Speaking ahead of the press conference, Ms King said the visit, organised by Christian Aid, had opened her eyes.

The MP, a member of the Jewish Council for Racial Equality, said: "I recognise the terror many Israelis live with as a matter of their daily lives.

"I was more surprised perhaps by the everyday terror that Palestinians live, the detail and nature of which I had not understood.

"We must support the moderate voices as opposed to strengthening extremists."

Referring to Warsaw, scene of the historic uprising by its Jewish inhabitants, Ms King said: "It is the same in nature but not extent."

She stressed the "very, very big difference" between Gaza and the infamous ghetto established by the Nazis in Poland's capital.

"Palestinians are not being rounded up and put in gas chambers," she said.

But the MP said: "What makes it similar is what happened to the Jewish people in that time which was the seizing of land, being forced from property, torture and bureaucracy - control used in a demeaning way over the smallest task.

"On top of that building a wall around them - and that is precisely what the Israeli government is doing. In doing so it is building a political ghetto. I don't think it can escape that conclusion."

Ms King also said: "As a Jewish person, I hoped I would never live to see the day I was ashamed of the actions of the Jewish state."

The situation had worsened considerably since she last visited with pressure group Labour Friends of Israel in 1998, she added.

Ms Tonge agreed: "You are almost getting a situation like the Warsaw ghetto - people can't get in or out. They can't work, they can't sell anything. There is this gradual squeeze."

However, the Richmond Park MP also offered a comparison of her own.

"I feel it was an apartheid system and it is certainly getting worse - the area where the Palestinians live is getting smaller."

Ms Tonge wants to see economic sanctions against Israel unless the situation improves and says EU or UN troops should be sent in to keep the peace.

"Israel says everything it does is for security but they are not addressing the cause of terrorism, only terrorism itself," she added.

At their meeting this morning, Mr Blair and Mr Netanyahu discussed the Middle East peace process.

Mr Blair's official spokesman said: "The Prime Minister reiterated his commitment to see the road map implemented and his willingness to do everything that he and the British government can to help."

Later, a spokeswoman for the Israeli Embassy said: "It is a terrible shame that a British MP could make this comparison. We were shocked by the ignorance of comparing Gaza to the Warsaw ghetto.

"Such views only encourage extremists elements to become involved in terror against Israel as we recently faced in the suicide bomb in Tel Aviv."

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zewari
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71. "^up for the zionist appologists^"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

where's ya'lls responses to the above?

rubadubdub??

insanejake??

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insanejake
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Fri Nov-26-04 11:39 AM

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73. "You gonna cry cos people disagree with you?"
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

Guess what, I disagree with those people as well....

Notice, how I never denied that zionists do bad things. I just object to you calling them Nazis. As I object to other Jews calling them Nazis.

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

  

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zewari
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76. "all you do is 'object' cause you can't validate your argument."
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

i'm not the one bitching about shit. i made a VALID comparison and you did nothing but bitch about it without logically backing up a single claim.

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insanejake
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Fri Nov-26-04 12:00 PM

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77. "I posted some sources for you to ignore"
In response to Reply # 76


  

          

along with my arguments and my reasoning.

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

  

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zewari
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Fri Nov-26-04 12:07 PM

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78. "on what planet?"
In response to Reply # 77


  

          

_¸»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«SiG»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«¸_



“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice. Remember, God is the best of Protectors and well acquainted with all that you do.”
-Qur’an 4:135

"Don't be deceived when they tell you things are better now. Even if there's no poverty to be seen because the poverty's been hidden. Even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which industries foist on you and even if it seems to you that you never had so much, that is only the slogan of those who still have much more than you. Don't be taken in when they paternally pat you on the shoulder and say that there's no inequality worth speaking of and no more reason to fight because if you believe them they will be completely in charge in their marble homes and granite banks from which they rob the people of the world under the pretence of bringing them culture. Watch out, for as soon as it pleases them they'll send you out to protect their gold in wars whose weapons, rapidly developed by servile scientists, will become more and more deadly until they can with a flick of the finger tear a million of you to pieces."
--Jean Paul Marat, 18th Century French Visionary (and revolutionary), murdered in his bathtub by Royalist Charlotte Corday


__________________________

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insanejake
Member since Feb 18th 2003
4885 posts
Fri Nov-26-04 12:29 PM

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80. "On planet bullshit"
In response to Reply # 78


  

          

some of them were good.

I wanted to show that 2 sides can post propaganda

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

  

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zewari
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Mon Nov-29-04 10:23 AM

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86. "that's a stupid objective."
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

the argument I presented was substantiated by fact. the one you presented was not.

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insanejake
Member since Feb 18th 2003
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Mon Nov-29-04 12:40 PM

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89. "Sure it was"
In response to Reply # 86


  

          

fact is objective anyway.

There are multiple sides to any argument. There is no way you can condone suicide bombings. Or using little kids as cover.

Just as there is no way to condone shooting a little girl. Or building a wall through someones land.

There is a growing vein of anti-semitism in the world (and yes, semites can still be anti-semitic). Whilst some of my links were obviously shit, some tackle serious issues..

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

  

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zewari
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Mon Nov-29-04 12:44 PM

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90. "FACT is NOT OBJECTIVE"
In response to Reply # 89


  

          

opinion and perception is, but fact isn't.

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insanejake
Member since Feb 18th 2003
4885 posts
Mon Nov-29-04 11:52 PM

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92. "So you believe in universal truth?"
In response to Reply # 90


  

          

If you asked Gore, he would say it was a fact that he won the 2000 election. If you asked Bush, he would.

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

  

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zewari
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Wed Dec-08-04 12:53 PM

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104. "FACTS are not subject to interpretation"
In response to Reply # 92


  

          

Bush would still be wrong because the votes don't support his claim. Bush can believe whatever he wants to believe, but that doesn't make it fact

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insanejake
Member since Feb 18th 2003
4885 posts
Tue Dec-14-04 06:51 AM

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108. "Its not indisputable though"
In response to Reply # 104


  

          

You didnt count all the votes... Even if you had, how do you know you got them all?

My point is, is that if there are two people who witness an incident, they have differing ideas of what happened, differing ideas of why it happened and differing ideas of what the consequences might be.

Truth is a shaky concept to say the least..

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

  

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zewari
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Tue Dec-14-04 12:38 PM

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110. "1+1=2"
In response to Reply # 108


  

          

if some unfortunately soul believes otherwise, that doesn't lend any credibility to their claim. facts are not subjective. opinions are.

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insanejake
Member since Feb 18th 2003
4885 posts
Wed Dec-15-04 04:38 AM

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112. "Numbers are symbols"
In response to Reply # 110


  

          

Some cultures (eg. the Yanomamo) cant count beyond three....

This is an equation, a linguistic tool. I interpret 2+2= 4
Yanomamo see 2+2=more than 3...

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

  

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rubadubdub
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505 posts
Fri Nov-26-04 11:44 AM

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74. "RE: ^up for the zionist appologists^"
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

Nice, so i'm a Zionist apologist now. Great. Nothing you posted produced any great revelations alright. I know all that stuff. I know alot of militantly anti-zionist jews. I just think you gotta read up on what anti-semetism is in an academic context. It'll make your arguments far more compelling.


COULTER: Osama bin Laden is D-E-D
dead. No one can convince me
otherwise.

BIN LADEN: occupying himself by
talking to the little girl about the goat
and its butting was more important
than occupying himself with the
planes and their butting of the
skyscrapers.

  

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zewari
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Fri Nov-26-04 11:50 AM

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75. "the charge of anti-semiticism makes NO sense"
In response to Reply # 74


  

          

and if you claim to know all these arguments yet still contend that there is no valid comparison between zionists and jews, then you are an appologist. you have not offered a single logically valid counter-argument.

the charge of anti-semiticism also makes no sense in the academic context. do better.

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rubadubdub
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505 posts
Fri Nov-26-04 12:22 PM

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79. "RE: the charge of anti-semiticism makes NO sense"
In response to Reply # 75


  

          

>and if you claim to know all these arguments yet still
>contend that there is no valid comparison between zionists
>and jews,

I have never said that there isn't any valid comparison between Nazis and Zionists, that's what i assume you're talking about. I said that it is disengenuous to use the Nazi comparison exclusively.


then you are an appologist. you have not offered a
>single logically valid counter-argument

I am not trying to argue that.

>the charge of anti-semiticism also makes no sense in the
>academic context. do better.

You ever read a book on the subject?

COULTER: Osama bin Laden is D-E-D
dead. No one can convince me
otherwise.

BIN LADEN: occupying himself by
talking to the little girl about the goat
and its butting was more important
than occupying himself with the
planes and their butting of the
skyscrapers.

  

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zewari
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7113 posts
Mon Nov-29-04 10:31 AM

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87. "RE: the charge of anti-semiticism makes NO sense"
In response to Reply # 79


  

          

>I have never said that there isn't any valid comparison
>between Nazis and Zionists, that's what i assume you're
>talking about. I said that it is disengenuous to use the
>Nazi comparison exclusively.

read post #s 7 and 13. the reason why the Nazi comparison is valid and justified is because the Nazi party represents the manifestation of fascism, and all such comparisons serve to raise awareness and vigilance against fascist forces in our world today.

>>the charge of anti-semiticism also makes no sense in the
>>academic context. do better.
>
>You ever read a book on the subject?

nope.

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MANHOODLUM
Charter member
27788 posts
Fri Nov-26-04 10:18 AM

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72. "up"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

n/m

Avatar?
E-Boogs and Nayi

MANHOODLUM
Most sig'd okp.
No Aliases.

MANHOODLUM via Twitter
MANHOODLUM@live.com
MANHOODLUM@yahoo.com
Tommy Moran @ Facebook
MANHOODLUM@tmo.blackberry.net

  

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The Damaja
Member since Aug 02nd 2003
18637 posts
Fri Nov-26-04 03:42 PM

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81. "so, you're anti semetic?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

what I don't get is, how can people even be bothered being anti-semetic, it's not like the Jews are constants in their faces

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

  

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zewari
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Sat Nov-27-04 07:48 AM

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85. "nope, i AM semitic"
In response to Reply # 81


  

          

_¸»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«SiG»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«¸_



“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice. Remember, God is the best of Protectors and well acquainted with all that you do.”
-Qur’an 4:135

"Don't be deceived when they tell you things are better now. Even if there's no poverty to be seen because the poverty's been hidden. Even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which industries foist on you and even if it seems to you that you never had so much, that is only the slogan of those who still have much more than you. Don't be taken in when they paternally pat you on the shoulder and say that there's no inequality worth speaking of and no more reason to fight because if you believe them they will be completely in charge in their marble homes and granite banks from which they rob the people of the world under the pretence of bringing them culture. Watch out, for as soon as it pleases them they'll send you out to protect their gold in wars whose weapons, rapidly developed by servile scientists, will become more and more deadly until they can with a flick of the finger tear a million of you to pieces."
--Jean Paul Marat, 18th Century French Visionary (and revolutionary), murdered in his bathtub by Royalist Charlotte Corday


__________________________

www.supportblackowned.org

  

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shwin
Charter member
3481 posts
Sat Nov-27-04 04:04 AM

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83. "you sound like a damn nazi"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

man, go to hell

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NYU

  

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zewari
Charter member
7113 posts
Sat Nov-27-04 07:41 AM

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84. "you're anti-semitic"
In response to Reply # 83


  

          

_¸»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«SiG»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«¸_



“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice. Remember, God is the best of Protectors and well acquainted with all that you do.”
-Qur’an 4:135

"Don't be deceived when they tell you things are better now. Even if there's no poverty to be seen because the poverty's been hidden. Even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which industries foist on you and even if it seems to you that you never had so much, that is only the slogan of those who still have much more than you. Don't be taken in when they paternally pat you on the shoulder and say that there's no inequality worth speaking of and no more reason to fight because if you believe them they will be completely in charge in their marble homes and granite banks from which they rob the people of the world under the pretence of bringing them culture. Watch out, for as soon as it pleases them they'll send you out to protect their gold in wars whose weapons, rapidly developed by servile scientists, will become more and more deadly until they can with a flick of the finger tear a million of you to pieces."
--Jean Paul Marat, 18th Century French Visionary (and revolutionary), murdered in his bathtub by Royalist Charlotte Corday


__________________________

www.supportblackowned.org

  

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zewari
Charter member
7113 posts
Mon Nov-29-04 11:01 AM

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88. "Israeli TV EXPOSED Zionists' EUGENICS Campaign"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

100,000 Radiations - A Review
By Barry Chamish
chamish@netvision.net.il
8-18-4

On August 14, 2004, at 9 PM, Israeli television station, Channel Ten, broke all convention and exposed the ugliest secret of Israel's Labor Zionist founders; the deliberate mass radiation poisoning of nearly all Sephardi youths.

The expose began with the presentation of a documentary film called, 100,000 Radiations, and concluded with a panel discussion moderated by TV host Dan Margalit, surprising because he is infamous for toeing the establishment line.


summary:
--------------------------------------

1.

In 1951, the director general of the Israeli Health Ministry, Dr. Chaim Sheba flew to America and returned with 7 x-ray machines, supplied to him by the American army.

They were to be used in a mass atomic experiment with an entire generation of Sephardi youths to be used as guinea pigs. Every Sephardi child was to be given 35,000 times the maximum dose of x-rays through his head. For doing so, the American government paid the Israeli government 300 million Israeli liras a year. The entire Health budget was 60 million liras. The money paid by the Americans is equivalent to billions of dollars today.

The film made it perfectly plain that this operation was no accident. The dangers of x-rays had been known for over forty years. We read the official guidelines for x-ray treatment in 1952. The maximum dose to be given a child in Israel was .5 rad. There was no mistake made. The children were deliberately poisoned.

Yes, that is the subject of the documentary in cold terms. It is another matter to see the victims on the screen. ie. To watch....

To watch the old lady who administered the doses to thousands of children.

"They brought them in lines. First their heads were shaved and smeared in burning gel. Then a ball was put between their legs and the children were ordered not to drop it, so they wouldn't move.

2.

...let us help Mr. Deri trace the chain of command. But now I must intrude myself in the review. About six years ago, I investigated the kidnapping of some 4,500, mostly Yemenite immigrant infants and children, during the early years of the state. I met the leader of the Yemenite children's movement, Rabbi Uzi Meshulum, imprisoned for trying to get the truth out. He was later returned home in a vegetative state from which he has not emerged. He told me that the kidnapped children were sent to America to die cruelly in nuclear experiments. The American government had banned human testing and needed guinea pigs. The Israeli government agreed to supply the humans in exchange for money and nuclear secrets. The initiator of Israel's nuclear program was Defence Ministry director-general Shimon Peres.

Rabbi David Sevilia of Jerusalem corroborated the crime and later, I even saw photos of the radiation scars on the few surviving children, and the cages the infants were shipped to America in.

Just over five years ago I published my belief on the internet, that Israel's Labor Zionist founders had conducted atomic experiments on Yemenite and other Sephardi children, killing thousands of them. Almost three years ago, I published the same assertion in my last book, Save Israel!. I suffered much scorn for doing so. However, I was right.

We return to the documentary. We are told that a US law in the late '40s put a stop to the human radiation experiments conducted on prisoners, the mentally feeble and the like. The American atomic program needed a new source of human lab rats and the Israeli government supplied it.

Here was the government cabinet at the time of the ringworm atrocities:

Prime Minister - David Ben Gurion
Finance Minister - Eliezer Kaplan Settlement Minister - Levi Eshkol
Foreign Minister - Moshe Sharrett
Health Minister - Yosef Burg
Labor Minister - Golda Meir
Police Minister - Amos Ben Gurion

The highest ranking non-cabinet post belonged to the Director General Of The Defence Ministry, Shimon Peres.

That a program involving the equivalent of billions of dollars of American government funds should be unknown to the Prime Minister of cash-strapped Israel is ridiculous.


After the film ended, TV host Dan Margalit tried to put a better face on what he'd witnessed. Any face had to be better than what he had seen. He explained meekly, "But the state was poor. It was a matter of day to day survival." Then he stopped. He knew there was no excusing the atrocities the Sephardi children endured.

--------------------------------------




On August 14, at 9 PM, Israeli television station, Channel Ten, broke all convention and exposed the ugliest secret of Israel's Labor Zionist founders; the deliberate mass radiation poisoning of nearly all Sephardi youths.

The expose began with the presentation of a documentary film called, 100,000 Radiations, and concluded with a panel discussion moderated by TV host Dan Margalit, surprising because he is infamous for toeing the establishment line.

Film Details:

100,000 Radiations, released by Dimona Productions Ltd. in 2003.

Producer - Dudi Bergman
Directors - Asher Khamias, David Balrosen

Panel Discussion Participants

A Moroccan singer was joined by David Edri, head of the Compensation Committee for Ringworm X-Ray Victims, and Boaz Lev, a spokesman for the Ministry Of Health.

Subject:

In 1951, the director general of the Israeli Health Ministry, Dr. Chaim Sheba flew to America and returned with 7 x-ray machines, supplied to him by the American army.

They were to be used in a mass atomic experiment with an entire generation of Sephardi youths to be used as guinea pigs. Every Sephardi child was to be given 35,000 times the maximum dose of x-rays through his head. For doing so, the American government paid the Israeli government 300 million Israeli liras a year. The entire Health budget was 60 million liras. The money paid by the Americans is equivalent to billions of dollars today. To fool the parents of the victims, the children were taken away on "school trips" and their parents were later told the x-rays were a treatment for the scourge of scalpal ringworm. 6,000 of the children died shortly after their doses were given, the many of the rest developed cancers that killed them over time and are still killing them now. While living, the victims suffered from disorders such as epilepsy, amnesia, Alzheimer's disease, chronic headaches and psychosis.

Yes, that is the subject of the documentary in cold terms. It is another matter to see the victims on the screen. ie. To watch the Moroccan lady describe what getting 35,000 times the dose of allowable x-rays in her head feels like.

"I screamed make the headache go away. Make the headache go away. Make the headache go away. But it never went away."

To watch the bearded man walk hunched down the street.

"I'm in my fifties and everyone thinks I'm in my seventies. I have to stoop when I walk so I won't fall over. They took my youth away with those x-rays."

To watch the old lady who administered the doses to thousands of children.

"They brought them in lines. First their heads were shaved and smeared in burning gel. Then a ball was put between their legs and the children were ordered not to drop it, so they wouldn't move. The children weren't protected over the rest of their bodies. There were no lead vests for them. I was told I was doing good by helping to remove ringworm. If I knew what dangers the children were facing, I would never have cooperated. Never!"

Because the whole body was exposed to the rays, the genetic makeup of the children was often altered, affecting the next generation. We watch the woman with the distorted face explain, "All three of my children have the same cancers my family suffered. Are you going to tell me that's a coincidence?"

Everyone notices that Sephardi women in their fifties today, often have sparse patchy hair, which they try to cover with henna. Most of us assumed it was just a characteristic of Sephardi women. We watch the woman on the screen wearing a baseball-style hat. She places a picture of a lovely young teenager with flowing black hair opposite the lens. "That was me before my treatment. Now look at me." She removes her hat. Even the red henna can't cover the horrifying scarred bald spots.

The majority of the victims were Moroccan because they were the most numerous of the Sephardi immigrants. The generation that was poisoned became the country's perpetual poor and criminal class. It didn't make sense. The Moroccans who fled to France became prosperous and highly educated. The common explanation was that France got the rich, thus smart ones. The real explanation is that every French Moroccan child didn't have his brain cells fried with gamma rays.

The film made it perfectly plain that this operation was no accident. The dangers of x-rays had been known for over forty years. We read the official guidelines for x-ray treatment in 1952. The maximum dose to be given a child in Israel was .5 rad. There was no mistake made. The children were deliberately poisoned.

David Deri, makes the point that only Sephardi children received the x-rays.

"I was in class and the men came to take us on a tour. They asked our names. The Ashkenazi children were told to return to their seats. The dark children were put on the bus."

The film presents a historian who first gives a potted history of the eugenics movement. In a later sound bite, he declares that the ringworm operation was a eugenics program aimed at weeding out the perceived weak strains of society. The film now quotes two noted anti-Sephardi racist Jewish leaders, Nahum Goldmann and Levi Eshkol.

Goldmann spent the Holocaust years first in Switzerland, where he made sure few Jewish refugees were given shelter, then flew to New York to become head of the World Jewish Congress headed by Samuel Bronfman. According to Canadian writer Mordecai Richler, Bronfman had cut a deal with Prime Minister Mackenzie King to prevent the immigration of European Jews to Canada.

But Levi Eshkol's role in the Holocaust was far more minister than merely not saving lives. He was busy taking them instead. From a biography of Levi Eshkol from the Israeli government web site:

"In 1937 Levi Eshkol played a central role in the establishment of the Mekorot Water Company and in this role was instrumental in convincing the German government to allow Jews emigrating to Palestine to take with them some of their assets - mostly in the form of German-made equipment."

While world Jewry was boycotting the Nazi regime in the '30s, the Jewish Agency in Jerusalem was propping up Hitler. A deal, called The Transfer Agreement, was cut whereby the Nazis would chase Germany's Jews to Palestine, and the Labor Zionists would force the immigrants to use their assets to buy only German goods. Once the Jewish Agency got the German Jews it wanted, those they secretly indoctrinated in the anti-Judaism of Shabtai Tzvi and Jacob Frank, they let the Nazis take care of the rest of European Jewry. The Holocaust was a eugenics program and Levi Eshkol played a major role in it.

The Moroccan lady is back on the screen. "It was a Holocaust, a Sephardi Holocaust. And what I want to know is why no one stood up to stop it."

David Deri, on film and then as a panel member, relates the frustration he encountered when trying to find his childhood medical records.

"All I wanted to know was what they did to me. I wanted to know who authorized it. I wanted to trace the chain of command. But the Health Ministry told me my records were missing."

Boaz Lev, the Health Ministry's spokesman chimes in, "Almost all the records were burned in a fire."

So let us help Mr. Deri trace the chain of command. But now I must intrude myself in the review. About six years ago, I investigated the kidnapping of some 4500, mostly Yemenite immigrant infants and children, during the early years of the state. I met the leader of the Yemenite children's movement, Rabbi Uzi Meshulum, imprisoned for trying to get the truth out. He was later returned home in a vegetative state from which he has not emerged. He told me that the kidnapped children were sent to America to die cruelly in nuclear experiments. The American government had banned human testing and needed guinea pigs. The Israeli government agreed to supply the humans in exchange for money and nuclear secrets. The initiator of Israel's nuclear program was Defence Ministry director-general Shimon Peres.

Rabbi David Sevilia of Jerusalem corroborated the crime and later, I even saw photos of the radiation scars on the few surviving children, and the cages the infants were shipped to America in.

Just over five years ago I published my belief on the internet, that Israel's Labor Zionist founders had conducted atomic experiments on Yemenite and other Sephardi children, killing thousands of them. Almost three years ago, I published the same assertion in my last book, Save Israel!. I suffered much scorn for doing so. However, I was right.

We return to the documentary. We are told that a US law in the late '40s put a stop to the human radiation experiments conducted on prisoners, the mentally feeble and the like. The American atomic program needed a new source of human lab rats and the Israeli government supplied it.

Here was the government cabinet at the time of the ringworm atrocities:

Prime Minister - David Ben Gurion
Finance Minister - Eliezer Kaplan Settlement Minister - Levi Eshkol
Foreign Minister - Moshe Sharrett
Health Minister - Yosef Burg
Labor Minister - Golda Meir
Police Minister - Amos Ben Gurion

The highest ranking non-cabinet post belonged to the Director General Of The Defence Ministry, Shimon Peres.

That a program involving the equivalent of billions of dollars of American government funds should be unknown to the Prime Minister of cash-strapped Israel is ridiculous. Ben Gurion was in on the horrors and undoubtedly chose his son to be Police Minister in case anyone interfered with them.

Now, let's have a quick glance at the other plotters, starting with the Finance Minister Eliezer Kaplan. He handled the profits of the operation and was rewarded for eternity with a hospital named after him near Rehovot. But he's not alone in this honor. The racist bigot Chaim Sheba, who ran Ringworm Incorporated, had a whole medical complex named after him. Needless to say, if there is an ounce of decency in the local medical profession, those hospital names will have to change.

Then there is Yosef Burg, who the leaders of the Yemenite Children's movement insist was the most responsible for the kidnappings of their infants. As Health Minister, he certainly played a pivotal role in the Ringworm murders. That would go a great way to explaining the peculiar behavior of his son, the peacemaker, Avraham Burg.

Let us not forget Moshe Sharrett, who had Rabbi Yoel Brand arrested in Aleppo in 1944 for proposing a practical way to save 800,000 Jews trapped in Hungary. Sharrett's most cited quote is, "If Shimon Peres ever enters this government, I will tear my clothes and start to mourn." Several Yemenite Children activists told me Sharrett was referring to the kidnapping of the Yemenite children when he made this statement.

And other amateur historians have told me that Levi Eshkol openly and proudly announced his belief in the tenets of Shabtai Tzvi, but try as I have, I haven't tracked down a citation. However, we do know of Eshkol, that during the period of the radiations, he served first as Settlement Minister, then took over from Kaplan as Finance Minister. From his bio:

"In 1951 Eshkol was appointed Minister of Agriculture and Development, and from 1952 to 1963 - a decade characterized by unprecedented economic growth despite the burden of financing immigrant absorption and the 1956 Sinai Campaign - he served as Minister of Finance. Between 1949 and 1963, Eshkol also served as head of the settlement division of the Jewish Agency. In the first four years of statehood, he was also treasurer of the Jewish Agency, largely responsible for obtaining the funds for the country's development, absorption of the massive waves of immigrants and equipment for the army."

In short, Eshkol was the person most responsible for Israel's immigrants, the ones he sent to radiation torture chambers.


Finally, there is Golda Meir. We don't know her role, but she was in on the secret and rewarded for it. Note that every prime minister thereafter until 1977, when the honorable Menachem Begin was elected, came from this cabal. And note also, that no one from what is called the Right today, was privy to the slaughter of the Sephardi children.

Apply that lesson to a contemporary fact: It is the descendants of these
butchers who brought us the Oslo "peace" and are determined to wipe out the settlers of Judea, Samaria and Gaza as surely as they had dealt with the inferior dark Jews who came into their clutches fifty years before.

Now try and imagine it is 1952 and you are in a cabinet meeting. You will be debating whether to send the Yemenite babies to America for their final zapping, or whether to have them zapped here. That is what the Luciferian, satanic Sabbataian founders of our nation were prattling on about when they got together to discuss the affairs of state.

After the film ended, TV host Dan Margalit tried to put a better face on what he'd witnessed. Any face had to be better than what he had seen. He explained meekly, "But the state was poor. It was a matter of day to day survival." Then he stopped. He knew there was no excusing the atrocities the Sephardi children endured.

But it was the Moroccan singer who summed up the experience best. "It's going to hurt, but the truth has to be told. If not, the wounds will never heal."

There is one person alive who knows the truth and participated in the atrocities. He is Leader Of The Opposition Shimon Peres, the peacemaker. The only way to get to the truth and start the healing is to investigate him for his role in the kidnapping of 4500 Yemenite infants and the mass poisoning of over 100,000 Sephardi children and youths.

But here is why that won't happen. It is a miracle that 100,000 Radiations was broadcast at all. Clearly though, someone fought for it but had to agree to a compromise. The show was aired at the same time as the highest-rated show of the year, the final of Israel's, A Star Is Born. The next day, there was not a word about 100,000 Radiations in any paper, but the newly-born star's photo took up half the front pages.

That's how the truth is buried in Israel, and somehow, these tricks work. The same methods were used to cover up the Rabin assassination.

However, a few hundred thousand people saw the film on their screens and they will never forget the truth. If the Rabin assassination doesn't bury Labor Zionism for good, then 100,000 Radiations eventually will.

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zewari
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93. "Jerusalem Post: Over 50% of Germans equate IDF w/ Nazi army"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


By ETGAR LEFKOVITS

Six decades after the mass extermination of six million Jews in the Holocaust by Nazi Germany, more than 50 percent of Germans believe that Israel's present-day treatment of the Palestinians is similar to what the Nazis did to the Jews during World War II, a German survey released this weekend shows.

51 percent of respondents said that there is not much of a difference between what Israel is doing to the Palestinians today and what the Nazis did to the Jews during the Holocaust, compared to 49% who disagreed with such a comparison, according to the poll carried out by Germany's University of Bielefeld.

The survey also found that 68 percent of Germans believe that Israel is waging a "war of extermination" against the Palestinians, while some 32% disagreed with such a statement.

In a first reaction, the chairman of Yad Vashem's directorate Avner Shalev said Tuesday that the poll's results, which he termed "very worrisome," were indicative of a long-suppressed felling of anti-Semitism among the mainstream "so-called liberals" population which now, under the coating of anti-Israeli criticism, are becoming legitimate again. He added that the poll's results, which he said any objective person would repudiate, are also the result of the release of pent-up feelings of guilt built up from the Holocaust.

"The energies which bring about such answers come to protect feelings of guilt," Shalev said. 62 percent of respondents in the poll said that they were sick of "all this harping" of German crimes against Jews, while 68% said that they found it "annoying" that Germans today are still held to blame for Nazi crimes against Jews.

The survey, which aimed to determine what is "the cut off point" between criticism of Israel and anti-Semitism, finds that while "classical" anti-Semitism in Germany is on the wane, secondary anti-Semitism, often couched in anti-Israel views are on the rise, especially among the Left.

The German researchers who conducted the polls conceded that the results showing a majority of Germans equating Israel's Policy with Nazi Atrocities "may be worrying," but concurred with Yad Vashem's Shalev that the media coverage of the Israeli-Palestinians conflict has made such analogies part of the public discourse.

"When you see an image in the newspaper, in a caricature, which is repeated day in and day out that Sharon is equal to Hitler than the image catches in your head because maybe you do not like Jews so much or maybe you hate Jews, and than this works out excellent," Shalev said, stressing that education of the young generation was the key to stemming such a tide.

In the survey, 82 percent of the respondents polled said that they are angered by the way Israel is treating the Palestinians, while 45 percent of those polled said that considering Israel's policies it was "no surprise" that people were against them.

The telephone poll of 3000 "non-migrant" respondents, which was taken in May and June, did not come with a margin of error.

"This is a very sad commentary about what is happening in Europe today which needs to send a very strong warning signal about how much work needed to be done to deal with these attitudes," said, Dr. Ephraim Zuroff, the Israel director of the Los Angeles-based Simon Wiesenthal Center.

Due in part to its blighted history, Germany is generally considered to be one of the more supportive countries of Israel in Europe.

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insanejake
Member since Feb 18th 2003
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Wed Dec-08-04 11:11 AM

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95. "Who are they to talk?"
In response to Reply # 93


  

          

Seriously. A lot of the people that would have been asked would have been brought up in households that agreed with Hitler... People who never had to account for their actions...

"The energies which bring about such answers come to protect feelings of guilt," Shalev said. 62 percent of respondents in the poll said that they were sick of "all this harping" of German crimes against Jews, while 68% said that they found it "annoying" that Germans today are still held to blame for Nazi crimes against Jews.

Thats like somewhere like Saudi Arabia talking about human rights violations. Oh, wait...


"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

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zewari
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97. "people w/ first hand experience of Nazi tactics"
In response to Reply # 95


  

          

do you hold the same criticism against Einstein, prominent jewish intellectuals, and the rabbis listed above?

_¸»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«SiG»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«¸_



“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice. Remember, God is the best of Protectors and well acquainted with all that you do.”
-Qur’an 4:135

"Don't be deceived when they tell you things are better now. Even if there's no poverty to be seen because the poverty's been hidden. Even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which industries foist on you and even if it seems to you that you never had so much, that is only the slogan of those who still have much more than you. Don't be taken in when they paternally pat you on the shoulder and say that there's no inequality worth speaking of and no more reason to fight because if you believe them they will be completely in charge in their marble homes and granite banks from which they rob the people of the world under the pretence of bringing them culture. Watch out, for as soon as it pleases them they'll send you out to protect their gold in wars whose weapons, rapidly developed by servile scientists, will become more and more deadly until they can with a flick of the finger tear a million of you to pieces."
--Jean Paul Marat, 18th Century French Visionary (and revolutionary), murdered in his bathtub by Royalist Charlotte Corday


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insanejake
Member since Feb 18th 2003
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Wed Dec-08-04 11:31 AM

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98. "Clearly not"
In response to Reply # 97


  

          

I have a german family.

But since they have first hand knowledge of Nazi tactics, does that mean that a) they have been to Israel and seen what is happening? and b) does this mean they will be less likely to try and pass the buck onto people they believe(d) to be less than human?

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

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zewari
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100. "so only people who've been to israel can understand..."
In response to Reply # 98


  

          

... the fascist nature of zionist policies and their semblence to nazi policies?



ok. so what's your response to people like Einstein and the prominent Jewish intellectuals who did the same comparison? what's your response to people like Noam Chomsky who were in Israel during the time when zionists massacred entire Palestinian villages? what is your response to the many orthodox Rabbis who equate zionists with murderers?

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insanejake
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Wed Dec-08-04 12:31 PM

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102. "Nope"
In response to Reply # 100
Wed Dec-08-04 12:33 PM

  

          

>... the fascist nature of zionist policies and their
>semblence to nazi policies?

But since they understand Nazi policies at first hand, to compare it they would need a similar experience of zionist policy.


>ok. so what's your response to people like Einstein and the
>prominent Jewish intellectuals who did the same comparison?
>what's your response to people like Noam Chomsky who were in
>Israel during the time when zionists massacred entire
>Palestinian villages? what is your response to the many
>orthodox Rabbis who equate zionists with murderers?

I disagree with them. As I have said many times.

Are you going to answer my point about how people who are looking to pass the buck for their atrocities are likely to point the finger at those they once considered less than human?


"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

  

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zewari
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Wed Dec-08-04 11:07 AM

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94. "Israeli soldiers expose maniacal belligerence towards defenseless Palest"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          



excerpts:
A recent exhibit titled "Breaking the Silence," organized in Tel Aviv by a number of conscientious Israeli soldiers who served in occupied Hebron, exposed in photographs and objects more serious belligerence towrds defenseless Palestinians. Inspired by Jewish settlers' graffiti that included: "Arabs to the gas chambers"; "Arabs = an inferior race"; "Spill Arab blood"; and, of course, the ever so popular "Death to the Arabs," soldiers used a myriad of methods to make the lives of average Palestinians intolerable. One photograph showed a bumper sticker on a passing car, perhaps explaining the ultimate goal of such abuse: "Religious penitence provides strength to expel the Arabs." The exhibit's main curator described a particularly shocking policy of randomly spraying crowded Palestinian residential neighborhoods, like Abu Sneina, from heavy machine guns and grenade launchers for hours on end in response to any minor shooting of a few bullets from any house in the neighborhood on the Jewish colonies inside the city.

The Hebron horrors pale, however, in comparison to what Israeli army units have done in Gaza. In an unnerving interview with Ha'aretz in November last year, for instance, Liran Ron Furer, a staff sergeant (res.) in the Israeli army and graduate of an arts school, described the gradual transformation of every soldier to an "animal" when staffing a roadblock, irrespective of whatever values he may bring with him from home. From his perspective, those soldiers get infected with what he calls "checkpoint syndrome," a glaring symptom of which is acting violently towards Palestinians in "the most primal and impulsive manner, without fear of punishment ." "At the checkpoint," he explains, "young people have the chance to be masters and using force and violence becomes legitimate ."

Furer cites how his colleagues degraded and mercilessly beat a Palestinian dwarf just for fun; how they had a "souvenir picture" taken with bloodied, bound civilians whom they'd thrashed; how one soldier pissed on the head of a Palestinian man because the latter had "the nerve to smile" at a soldier; how another Palestinian was forced to stand on four legs and bark like a dog; and how yet another soldier asked Palestinians for cigarettes and when they refused "broke someone's hand" and "slashed their tires."

The most chilling of all the incidents was his own personal confession. "I ran toward and punched an Arab right in the face," he admitted. "Blood was trickling from his lip onto his chin. I led him up behind the Jeep and threw him in, his knees banged against the trunk and he landed inside." He then goes on to describe in gruesome details how he and his comrades stepped on the tightly handcuffed captive, dubbed "the Arab;" how they hit him until "he was bleeding and making a kind of puddle of blood and saliva;" how he "grabbed him by the hair and turned his head to the side," until he cried aloud, and how the soldiers then "stepped harder and harder on his back," to make him stop crying.

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insanejake
Member since Feb 18th 2003
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Wed Dec-08-04 11:16 AM

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96. "Soldiers are belligerent?"
In response to Reply # 94


  

          


Do you even know what that means?


>excerpts:
>A recent exhibit titled "Breaking the Silence," organized in
>Tel Aviv by a number of conscientious Israeli soldiers who
>served in occupied Hebron, exposed in photographs and
>objects more serious belligerence towrds defenseless
>Palestinians. Inspired by Jewish settlers' graffiti that
>included: "Arabs to the gas chambers"; "Arabs = an inferior
>race"; "Spill Arab blood"; and, of course, the ever so
>popular "Death to the Arabs," soldiers used a myriad of
>methods to make the lives of average Palestinians
>intolerable. One photograph showed a bumper sticker on a
>passing car, perhaps explaining the ultimate goal of such
>abuse: "Religious penitence provides strength to expel the
>Arabs."

You been looking at any Arab slogans recently? Nutters make nasty slogans...

The exhibit's main curator described a particularly
>shocking policy of randomly spraying crowded Palestinian
>residential neighborhoods, like Abu Sneina, from heavy
>machine guns and grenade launchers for hours on end in
>response to any minor shooting of a few bullets from any
>house in the neighborhood on the Jewish colonies inside the
>city.

Seriously? "All we did was fire a few bullets at someone, and then they tried to shoot us back, how evil they are...."

>
>The Hebron horrors pale, however, in comparison to what
>Israeli army units have done in Gaza. In an unnerving
>interview with Ha'aretz in November last year, for instance,
>Liran Ron Furer, a staff sergeant (res.) in the Israeli army
>and graduate of an arts school, described the gradual
>transformation of every soldier to an "animal" when staffing
>a roadblock, irrespective of whatever values he may bring
>with him from home. From his perspective, those soldiers get
>infected with what he calls "checkpoint syndrome," a glaring
>symptom of which is acting violently towards Palestinians in
>"the most primal and impulsive manner, without fear of
>punishment ." "At the checkpoint," he explains, "young
>people have the chance to be masters and using force and
>violence becomes legitimate ."

Yup, training to be a soldier does nasty things to people. A bit like training to be a suicide bomber...

>The most chilling of all the incidents was his own personal
>confession. "I ran toward and
>punched an Arab right in the face," he admitted. "Blood was
>trickling from his lip onto his chin. I led him up behind
>the Jeep and threw him in, his knees banged against the
>trunk and he landed inside." He then goes on to describe in
>gruesome details how he and his comrades stepped on the
>tightly handcuffed captive, dubbed "the Arab;" how they hit
>him until "he was bleeding and making a kind of puddle of
>blood and saliva;" how he "grabbed him by the hair and
>turned his head to the side," until he cried aloud, and how
>the soldiers then "stepped harder and harder on his back,"
>to make him stop crying.

And you use this guy as a reliable source?

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

  

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zewari
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99. "you represent rejectionism @ its worst"
In response to Reply # 96


  

          

akin to holocaust deniers.

>Do you even know what that means?

Fucking idiot. Do you know how to read in full context? I said belligerence towards defenseless Palestinians. There are protocols for rules of militaristic engagement that prohibit such acts.

>You been looking at any Arab slogans recently? Nutters make
>nasty slogans...

Difference is that zionism is an ideology rooted in hate. the Palestinians hatred is rooted in oppression. the zionists act on their hate in ways that directly affects the well-being of the overwhelming majority of Palestinians.

>The exhibit's main curator described a particularly
>>shocking policy of randomly spraying crowded Palestinian
>>residential neighborhoods, like Abu Sneina, from heavy
>>machine guns and grenade launchers for hours on end in
>>response to any minor shooting of a few bullets from any
>>house in the neighborhood on the Jewish colonies inside the
>>city.
>
>Seriously? "All we did was fire a few bullets at someone,
>and then they tried to shoot us back, how evil they are...."

I am convinced you are FUNCTIONALLY ILLITERATE. Read the passage again, slowly this time. Let the words sink into your head. Its the equivalent of razing a neighborhood in the name of "hunting a criminal". Also look try and make an effort at understanding something called CAUSE AND EFFECT. The settlers do all sorts of horrendous shit without facing any reprimand, so its not suprising that somebody would want to bust a cap in their ass. THE CYCLE OF VIOLENCE WAS STARTED BY THE ZIONISTS, and the passage demonstrates the staple disproportionate response to fascist occupation.

>>The Hebron horrors pale, however, in comparison to what
>>Israeli army units have done in Gaza. In an unnerving
>>interview with Ha'aretz in November last year, for instance,
>>Liran Ron Furer, a staff sergeant (res.) in the Israeli army
>>and graduate of an arts school, described the gradual
>>transformation of every soldier to an "animal" when staffing
>>a roadblock, irrespective of whatever values he may bring
>>with him from home. From his perspective, those soldiers get
>>infected with what he calls "checkpoint syndrome," a glaring
>>symptom of which is acting violently towards Palestinians in
>>"the most primal and impulsive manner, without fear of
>>punishment ." "At the checkpoint," he explains, "young
>>people have the chance to be masters and using force and
>>violence becomes legitimate ."
>
>Yup, training to be a soldier does nasty things to people. A
>bit like training to be a suicide bomber...

except 1.) suicide bombers are the product of oppression, 2.) the israeli soldiers are the product of a fascist zionist state whose leaders want no peace.

>
>>The most chilling of all the incidents was his own personal
>>confession. "I ran toward and
>>punched an Arab right in the face," he admitted. "Blood was
>>trickling from his lip onto his chin. I led him up behind
>>the Jeep and threw him in, his knees banged against the
>>trunk and he landed inside." He then goes on to describe in
>>gruesome details how he and his comrades stepped on the
>>tightly handcuffed captive, dubbed "the Arab;" how they hit
>>him until "he was bleeding and making a kind of puddle of
>>blood and saliva;" how he "grabbed him by the hair and
>>turned his head to the side," until he cried aloud, and how
>>the soldiers then "stepped harder and harder on his back,"
>>to make him stop crying.
>
>And you use this guy as a reliable source?

Oh ok, so when a criminal confesses, he is not reliable. Your logic is astounding.

Astoundingly stupid.

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insanejake
Member since Feb 18th 2003
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Wed Dec-08-04 12:12 PM

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101. "What am I rejecting"
In response to Reply # 99


  

          

>akin to holocaust deniers.

Ah, back to shock and offend tactics I see.

>>Do you even know what that means?
>
>Fucking idiot. Do you know how to read in full context? I
>said belligerence towards defenseless Palestinians. There
>are protocols for rules of militaristic engagement that
>prohibit such acts.

Belligerent means warlike. They are soldiers. Go figure.

>>You been looking at any Arab slogans recently? Nutters make
>>nasty slogans...
>
>Difference is that zionism is an ideology rooted in hate.
>the Palestinians hatred is rooted in oppression.

Aha, and the Palestinians dont hate the Israelis? Did it ever occur to you that the Zionists just dont care that much about the Palestinians (not that that is right either)?

the
>zionists act on their hate in ways that directly affects the
>well-being of the overwhelming majority of Palestinians.

And what does this have to do with your "point". Are you saying that terrorism and its consequences font affect the wellbeing of the overwhelming majority of Israelis?

>>Seriously? "All we did was fire a few bullets at someone,
>>and then they tried to shoot us back, how evil they are...."
>
>I am convinced you are FUNCTIONALLY ILLITERATE. Read the
>passage again, slowly this time. Let the words sink into
>your head. Its the equivalent of razing a neighborhood in
>the name of "hunting a criminal". Also look try and make an
>effort at understanding something called CAUSE AND EFFECT.

I shoot you, you have a bigger gun and shoot me back, and you are the bad guy? I get it. And how should they find the person shooting at them? Ask nicely? Its not a great way of dealing with the situation, but if you hide terrorists, and you know you are dealing with a violent regime, dont be surprised when they come to get you...

>The settlers do all sorts of horrendous shit without facing
>any reprimand, so its not suprising that somebody would want
>to bust a cap in their ass. THE CYCLE OF VIOLENCE WAS
>STARTED BY THE ZIONISTS, and the passage demonstrates the
>staple disproportionate response to fascist occupation.

In other words, "they started it". This is puerile and facile to say the least....


>>Yup, training to be a soldier does nasty things to people. A
>>bit like training to be a suicide bomber...
>
>except 1.) suicide bombers are the product of oppression,

"they started it" again. Its ok to kill civilians, as long as they are Israeli civilians...

>2.) the israeli soldiers are the product of a fascist
>zionist state whose leaders want no peace.

Unlike the leaders of the suicide bombers who are desperate for peace at any cost? By the way, how often have legitimate palestinian democratic leadership elections been held. Dont be too quick to throw the term "fascist" around. It might come back at you like a boomerang...


>Oh ok, so when a criminal confesses, he is not reliable.
>Your logic is astounding.

So he admits to being a bastard, but because he is an Israeli bastard, its a good source. I have never seen an article where an Arab examines himself in this way...

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

  

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zewari
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Wed Dec-08-04 12:50 PM

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103. "you're rejecting the criminality of zionism"
In response to Reply # 101


  

          

you still like to believe that zionists just bought land and moved into Palestinian land. you try to marginalize and legitimize israeli state terrorism by comparing it to palestinian terrorism, when palestinian terrorism is severely DWARFED by israeli terrorism. then you go on to question the credibility of the article because of the israeli soldiers' confessions

and you asking me what you've rejected?

>>akin to holocaust deniers.
>
>Ah, back to shock and offend tactics I see.

no, its exactly accurate. the nazis considered German state terroism against the partisian resistance throughout europe as being counter-terrorist actions against partisian terrorism. the German military's so-called "counter-terrorism" strategy was studied by the militaries of the U.S., apartheid S. Africa, and Israel. numerous military analysts have even went so far as to point out flaws of the german strategy, and what more effective "solutions" would have been.

>>>Do you even know what that means?
>>
>>Fucking idiot. Do you know how to read in full context? I
>>said belligerence towards defenseless Palestinians. There
>>are protocols for rules of militaristic engagement that
>>prohibit such acts.
>
>Belligerent means warlike. They are soldiers. Go figure.

This is a pathetic attempt to excuse their criminal actions by treating it like its justified. The irony is that you criticize American soldiers in Iraq for the same thing, and instead of admitting that your emotionally fueled response predisposes you to white-washing israel's crimes, you continue on your downward spiral.

>>Difference is that zionism is an ideology rooted in hate.
>>the Palestinians hatred is rooted in oppression.
>
>Aha, and the Palestinians dont hate the Israelis? Did it
>ever occur to you that the Zionists just dont care that much
>about the Palestinians (not that that is right either)?

your bigotry reveals itself once more. in a previous exchange, you seemed content with interchangeably using the word "Palestinian" with the word "terrorist". note how i had never made such a horrendous mistake of committing a fallacious substitute. you even accused me of interchangeably using Jew with zionists, when i never did. i never once stated anything equivalent to "jews hate Palestinians", yet you seem content to make statements implicating uniform hatred for jews among Palestinians. and you said that in response to me pointing out how zionism is an ideology rooted in hate. "Palestinian" is not an ideology. "zionism" is. there is no such thing as Palestinianism. there is such a thing as zionism.

and what on earth were you trying to say by pointing out zionists don't care about the Palestinians??? its obvious the zionists dont care for the Palestinians. that's why they want to ethnically clense them.

> the
>>zionists act on their hate in ways that directly affects the
>>well-being of the overwhelming majority of Palestinians.
>
>And what does this have to do with your "point". Are you
>saying that terrorism and its consequences font affect the
>wellbeing of the overwhelming majority of Israelis?

Palestinian terrorism does not affect the physical, emotional, and psychological well-being of the average Israeli on any remotely comparable levels with how Israeli terrorism affects Palestinians.


>>>Seriously? "All we did was fire a few bullets at someone,
>>>and then they tried to shoot us back, how evil they are...."
>>
>>I am convinced you are FUNCTIONALLY ILLITERATE. Read the
>>passage again, slowly this time. Let the words sink into
>>your head. Its the equivalent of razing a neighborhood in
>>the name of "hunting a criminal". Also look try and make an
>>effort at understanding something called CAUSE AND EFFECT.
>
>I shoot you, you have a bigger gun and shoot me back, and
>you are the bad guy? I get it. And how should they find the
>person shooting at them? Ask nicely? Its not a great way of
>dealing with the situation, but if you hide terrorists, and
>you know you are dealing with a violent regime, dont be
>surprised when they come to get you...

Kill 'em all, let yahwey sort 'em out, right? You're a fucking lunatic. Don't even compare this to a gun fight. this isn't small arms exchange fool. you don't raze whole neighborhoods because one resident fired a shot. collective punishment is a war crime.

>>The settlers do all sorts of horrendous shit without facing
>>any reprimand, so its not suprising that somebody would want
>>to bust a cap in their ass. THE CYCLE OF VIOLENCE WAS
>>STARTED BY THE ZIONISTS, and the passage demonstrates the
>>staple disproportionate response to fascist occupation.
>
>In other words, "they started it". This is puerile and
>facile to say the least....

this is why you can never be intellectually honest.

>>>Yup, training to be a soldier does nasty things to people. A
>>>bit like training to be a suicide bomber...
>>
>>except 1.) suicide bombers are the product of oppression,
>
>"they started it" again. Its ok to kill civilians, as long
>as they are Israeli civilians...
>
>>2.) the israeli soldiers are the product of a fascist
>>zionist state whose leaders want no peace.

>Unlike the leaders of the suicide bombers who are desperate
>for peace at any cost?

see CAUSE AND EFFECT. israel's leaders direct national policy. terrorist leaders direct their respective terrorist group, not the Palestinian people. your constant comparison of the israeli state w/ individual groups is almost as flawed as your train of thought.

>By the way, how often have legitimate
>palestinian democratic leadership elections been held. Dont
>be too quick to throw the term "fascist" around. It might
>come back at you like a boomerang...

WTF kind of point is that shit? You're fucking pathetic man. anything that's fascist deserves to be called so. how often were the palestinians in a position where they could actually have a government??

>>Oh ok, so when a criminal confesses, he is not reliable.
>>Your logic is astounding.
>
>So he admits to being a bastard, but because he is an
>Israeli bastard, its a good source. I have never seen an
>article where an Arab examines himself in this way...


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insanejake
Member since Feb 18th 2003
4885 posts
Thu Dec-09-04 09:19 AM

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105. "RE: you're rejecting the criminality of zionism"
In response to Reply # 103


  

          

>you still like to believe that zionists just bought land and
>moved into Palestinian land.

A lot of them did. Some of them didnt.

you try to marginalize and
>legitimize israeli state terrorism by comparing it to
>palestinian terrorism, when palestinian terrorism is
>severely DWARFED by israeli terrorism.

Our atrocities are morally right because we are smaller than you. Moral relativisim anyone?

then you go on to
>question the credibility of the article because of the
>israeli soldiers' confessions
>
>and you asking me what you've rejected?

Im rejecting your rhetoric. You are rejecting Zionism. So we are both rejectionists...


>no, its exactly accurate. the nazis considered German state
>terroism against the partisian resistance throughout europe
>as being counter-terrorist actions against partisian
>terrorism. the German military's so-called
>"counter-terrorism" strategy was studied by the militaries
>of the U.S., apartheid S. Africa, and Israel. numerous
>military analysts have even went so far as to point out
>flaws of the german strategy, and what more effective
>"solutions" would have been.

But Im sure you arent referring to the Nazis because of that. Otherwise you could use other, better examples. Of which there are several. Again we come back to the point of why you would want to use the most offensive example possible. To make a point? To shock? To demonise the Israelis? To try and evoke the holocaust? And you throw the charge of intellectual dishonesty at me...


>>Belligerent means warlike. They are soldiers. Go figure.
>
>This is a pathetic attempt to excuse their criminal actions
>by treating it like its justified.

Nope, its an attempt to try to get you to use words you understand the meaning of.

The irony is that you
>criticize American soldiers in Iraq for the same thing, and
>instead of admitting that your emotionally fueled response
>predisposes you to white-washing israel's crimes, you
>continue on your downward spiral.

At what point did I whitewash the Israelis? I have said on many occasions they act badly, and commit atrocities. The difference is, Israelis face repeated terrorist attacks from Palestinian extremists, whereas the US had no reason to go to war with Iraq...

>>>Difference is that zionism is an ideology rooted in hate.
>>>the Palestinians hatred is rooted in oppression.
>>
>>Aha, and the Palestinians dont hate the Israelis? Did it
>>ever occur to you that the Zionists just dont care that much
>>about the Palestinians (not that that is right either)?
>
>your bigotry reveals itself once more. in a previous
>exchange, you seemed content with interchangeably using the
>word "Palestinian" with the word "terrorist".

I apologised for my oversight, and explained my reasoning. I dont believe all Palestinians are terrorists. Have you ever apologised for the things you said?

note how i had
>never made such a horrendous mistake of committing a
>fallacious substitute.

Your views on Jews are pretty clear from your choice of sources amongst other things. You may as well go the whole way...

Yet you seem content to make statements
>implicating uniform hatred for jews among Palestinians.

There is wide spread anti-jewish feeling amongst the Palestinians, and the Arab world in general. Saying this, not all Palestinians or Arabs hate Jews.

and
>you said that in response to me pointing out how zionism is
>an ideology rooted in hate. "Palestinian" is not an
>ideology. "zionism" is. there is no such thing as
>Palestinianism. there is such a thing as zionism.

Ok then, militant Palestinianism. There doesnt have to be a name to be an ideology. As an ideologue of undisclosed ideology you should be able to see that...

>and what on earth were you trying to say by pointing out
>zionists don't care about the Palestinians??? its obvious
>the zionists dont care for the Palestinians. that's why they
>want to ethnically clense them.

You are misunderstanding not caring. There is a difference between intent and lack of intent. Its a subtle one, and you havent grasped it yet. Most of the zionists dont give a fuck one way or another...


>Palestinian terrorism does not affect the physical,
>emotional, and psychological well-being of the average
>Israeli on any remotely comparable levels with how Israeli
>terrorism affects Palestinians.

Moral Relativism again anyone? Ive had my fill of that one..

>

>Kill 'em all, let yahwey sort 'em out, right? You're a
>fucking lunatic. Don't even compare this to a gun fight.
>this isn't small arms exchange fool. you don't raze whole
>neighborhoods because one resident fired a shot. collective
>punishment is a war crime.

Unlike suicide bombing civilians which is legitimate resistance. Seriously now. Im not condoning the Israeli actions, but it isnt completely mistifying is it?

>>In other words, "they started it". This is puerile and
>>facile to say the least....
>
>this is why you can never be intellectually honest.

Why, because you are puerile and facile?

>
>>Unlike the leaders of the suicide bombers who are desperate
>>for peace at any cost?
>
>see CAUSE AND EFFECT. israel's leaders direct national
>policy.

let me guess "they started it?"

terrorist leaders direct their respective terrorist
>group, not the Palestinian people. your constant comparison
>of the israeli state w/ individual groups is almost as
>flawed as your train of thought.

I see, and the Palestinian people dont support these groups at all?

>>By the way, how often have legitimate
>>palestinian democratic leadership elections been held. Dont
>>be too quick to throw the term "fascist" around. It might
>>come back at you like a boomerang...
>
>WTF kind of point is that shit? You're fucking pathetic man.
>anything that's fascist deserves to be called so. how often
>were the palestinians in a position where they could
>actually have a government??

Even if you dont have a government, you need a leadership, otherwise the man with the most money and guns wins...


"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

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zewari
Charter member
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Tue Dec-14-04 06:28 AM

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106. "you seriously place Palestinian terrorism on par with Israeli terrorism?"
In response to Reply # 105


  

          

Israeli terrorism persisted for over 50 years, using chemical, biological, and economic weapons against the Palestinian population and against the sovereign citizens of numerous countries, including S. Africa, Angola, the United States, and the Congo. zionists were the first party in the region to resort to modern-day terrorism.

“Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war... We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with the national struggle. First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances of today...”

— Yitzhak Shamir, Israeli Prime Minister, Zionist terrorist in an August 1943 article titled “Terror”, written for Hazit the journal of Lehi, the terrorist organization he belonged to


Palestinian terrorism developed as a reaction of this brutal oppression, so spare the excuses. Palestinians have not subjugated people in eugenics experiments like the zionists have. Palestinians did not support the criminal regime of apartheid S. Africa. Palestinians are not perpetuating the brutal war in the Congo. Palestinians have not used chemical weapons against the Israeli population. Palestinians are not forcing Israelis to live in ghettos.

_¸»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«SiG»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«¸_



“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice. Remember, God is the best of Protectors and well acquainted with all that you do.”
-Qur’an 4:135

"Don't be deceived when they tell you things are better now. Even if there's no poverty to be seen because the poverty's been hidden. Even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which industries foist on you and even if it seems to you that you never had so much, that is only the slogan of those who still have much more than you. Don't be taken in when they paternally pat you on the shoulder and say that there's no inequality worth speaking of and no more reason to fight because if you believe them they will be completely in charge in their marble homes and granite banks from which they rob the people of the world under the pretence of bringing them culture. Watch out, for as soon as it pleases them they'll send you out to protect their gold in wars whose weapons, rapidly developed by servile scientists, will become more and more deadly until they can with a flick of the finger tear a million of you to pieces."
--Jean Paul Marat, 18th Century French Visionary (and revolutionary), murdered in his bathtub by Royalist Charlotte Corday


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insanejake
Member since Feb 18th 2003
4885 posts
Tue Dec-14-04 06:47 AM

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107. "Sigh"
In response to Reply # 106


  

          

>Israeli terrorism persisted for over 50 years, using
>chemical, biological, and economic weapons against the
>Palestinian population and against the sovereign citizens of
>numerous countries, including S. Africa, Angola, the United
>States, and the Congo. zionists were the first party in the
>region to resort to modern-day terrorism.

Firstly I simply dont believe a lot of this. Secondly, "They started it" is not a good enough argument to justify suicide bombings. Thirdly, how can you be so morally relativistic? So the Palestinains kill less people, therefore their terrorism is better?

>“Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to
>disallow terror as a means of war... We are very far from
>any moral hesitations when concerned with the national
>struggle. First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the
>political war appropriate for the circumstances of today...”
>
>— Yitzhak Shamir, Israeli Prime Minister, Zionist terrorist
>in an August 1943 article titled “Terror”, written for Hazit
>the journal of Lehi, the terrorist organization he belonged
>to

Dubious. As usual. If I was a terrorist, I wouldnt write that.

All the rest of it was spurious tripe backed up with dodgy conspiracy theories and a healthy dose of propaganda.

I look forward to reading more bullshit soon.

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

  

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zewari
Charter member
7113 posts
Tue Dec-14-04 12:35 PM

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109. "this is exactly why you're a pathetic rejectionist."
In response to Reply # 107


  

          

>Firstly I simply dont believe a lot of this.

are you saying Israel never conducted eugenics experiments? or Israel never aided apartheid S. Africa in its brutal suppression of indigenous Africans? or Israel isn't playing a prominent role in perpetuating the war in the central Africa? or Israel isn't regulating the Palestinian population to ghettos? or Israel isn't using chemical weapons against the Palestinians?

the rest of your points are bullshit because you're going off conjecture. i never said suicide bombings are justified. i said Israeli terrorism, which predates Palestinian terrorism (so spare the 'reactionary' excuse), grossly dwarfs Palestinian terrorism. your intellectual dishonesty in coming to terms with this simple fact for what it is reveals a lot about your committment to real solutions.

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insanejake
Member since Feb 18th 2003
4885 posts
Wed Dec-15-04 04:36 AM

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111. "BOO"
In response to Reply # 109


  

          

>>Firstly I simply dont believe a lot of this.
>
>are you saying Israel never conducted eugenics experiments?
>or Israel never aided apartheid S. Africa in its brutal
>suppression of indigenous Africans? or Israel isn't playing
>a prominent role in perpetuating the war in the central
>Africa? or Israel isn't regulating the Palestinian
>population to ghettos? or Israel isn't using chemical
>weapons against the Palestinians?

Thats exactly what I am saying.

>
>the rest of your points are bullshit because you're going
>off conjecture. i never said suicide bombings are justified.
>i said Israeli terrorism, which predates Palestinian
>terrorism (so spare the 'reactionary' excuse), grossly
>dwarfs Palestinian terrorism.

So what, that still doesnt make suicide bombings acceptable and you have repeatedly shied away from properly condemning them. Your "they started it" argument is as childish as it looks....

your intellectual dishonesty
>in coming to terms with this simple fact for what it is
>reveals a lot about your committment to real solutions.

Really, so calling Israeli's Nazis, finding justifications for suicide bombings and making shit up about Israelis is progressing towards a solution. Ill put my response up. There are my ideas for solutions in there.

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

  

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zewari
Charter member
7113 posts
Tue Dec-21-04 02:31 PM

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113. "you're either delusional, in denial, or willingly rejecting FACTS."
In response to Reply # 111


  

          

its your type of apathy and rejectionism that plagued Germany during the rise of the Nazi party.

>>>Firstly I simply dont believe a lot of this.
>>
>>are you saying Israel never conducted eugenics experiments?
>>or Israel never aided apartheid S. Africa in its brutal
>>suppression of indigenous Africans? or Israel isn't playing
>>a prominent role in perpetuating the war in the central
>>Africa? or Israel isn't regulating the Palestinian
>>population to ghettos? or Israel isn't using chemical
>>weapons against the Palestinians?
>
>Thats exactly what I am saying.

You rejected Israel's close military and economic relations w/ the brutal apartheid South Africa regime. That alone is a mind-numbing rejection of established fact- one that no Israeli I've ever met went so far as to make. At worst case scenario, Israeli appologists cite reasons why Israel forged an alliance w/ the apartheid regime, when it was simply an example of how birds of a feather flock together.

Here is an excerpt from the U.S. Library of Congress Country Studies profile on South Africa regarding the relationship between its former apartheid government with Israel:


One of the most hidden but critical of South Africa's strategic relationships during the apartheid era was that with Israel, including both the Labor and the Likud governments. Israel officially opposed the apartheid system, but it also opposed broad international sanctions against Pretoria. For strategic reasons, much of the debate in Israeli government circles stressed coordinating ties to Pretoria within the framework of the tripartite relationship among Jerusalem, the United States (Israel's primary benefactor), and South Africa. Israel was also opposed to international embargoes in general, largely as a consequence of its own vulnerability to UN and other international sanctions.

South Africa and Israel had collaborated on military training, weapons development, and weapons production for years before broad sanctions were imposed in the late 1980s. Military cooperation continued despite the arms embargo and other trade restrictions imposed by the United States and much of Western Europe. Israel and several other countries discreetly traded with, and purchased enriched uranium from, South Africa throughout the 1980s. Romania's former president Nicolae Ceausescu, for example, used Israel as the "middleman" for exports to South Africa. In a few cases, joint ventures between Israel and South Africa helped to reduce the impact of sanctions on South African businesses.

The Israeli interest in South Africa sprang in part from the presence in South Africa of about 110,000 Jews, including at least 15,000 Israeli citizens. Israeli leaders sometimes justified trade with South Africa as support for the South African Jewish community, and South Africa provided a market for some of Israel's military exports. Israel's arms trade with South Africa was estimated at between US$400 million and US$800 million annually (see Arms Trade and the Defense Industry, ch. 5). In 1986 Israel also imported approximately US$181 million in goods, mainly coal, from South Africa, and exported to South Africa nonmilitary products worth about US$58.8 million.

In 1987 Israel took steps to reduce its military ties to South Africa to bring its policies in line with those of the United States and Western Europe. Then Minister of Foreign Affairs Shimon Peres announced the Israeli plan to ban new military sales contracts with South Africa, to reduce cultural and tourism ties, to appoint a committee to study sanctions proposals, and to condemn apartheid--which Peres characterized as "a policy totally rejected by all human beings." Israel also established educational programs in Israel for black South Africans. Nevertheless, through the early 1990s, several secret treaties remained in force, continuing the military relationship between the two countries and their joint research in missile development and nuclear technology.
_____________________________________________________

you denied Israel's eugenics experiments that were exposed by Israeli TV. I refer you back to which you probably ignored. Israeli military officials have also publicly acknowledged their development of an 'ethnic bomb' (see )

you denied Israel's use of chemical weapons on the Palestinian population which has been reported by Doctors Without Borders and videotaped in a documentary called "The Gaza Strip".

you also rejected the established connection of Israeli companies and various high-level government officials in playing prominent roles in the perpetuation of the brutal war raging in Central Africa. I posted relevent links in the thread titled .

your inability to honestly come to terms with the monsterous entity that the Israeli state is and has been undermines your capacity to arrive at just and amicable solutions

>>the rest of your points are bullshit because you're going
>>off conjecture. i never said suicide bombings are justified.
>>i said Israeli terrorism, which predates Palestinian
>>terrorism (so spare the 'reactionary' excuse), grossly
>>dwarfs Palestinian terrorism.
>
>So what, that still doesnt make suicide bombings acceptable
>and you have repeatedly shied away from properly condemning
>them. Your "they started it" argument is as childish as it
>looks....

What the fuck are you on? I have said on numerous occasions that I disagree and condemn the act of suicide bombing, but not necessarily the bomber. That is not such an abstract notion to understand. I did not "justify" or "rationalize" suicide bombers. I summarized the reasons why I don't necessarily condemn the bomber as being because I believe their actions are the end result of multi-faceted physical and socio-economic Israeli state terrorism. And for the record, all I said was zionist and Israeli state terrorism DWARFS Palestinian terrorism. From that, you somehow manage to extract a host of unrelated deductions... which do nothing but highlight your ignorance.

>> your intellectual dishonesty
>>in coming to terms with this simple fact for what it is
>>reveals a lot about your committment to real solutions.

>Really, so calling Israeli's Nazis, finding justifications
>for suicide bombings and making shit up about Israelis is
>progressing towards a solution.

I didn't call Israelis Nazis. I compared zionists and the Israeli state with the Nazi party and its government policies and practices. Do you have the intellectual capacity to note the difference? I know personally of many Israelis who share this perspective and have even posted statements by prominent Jewish intellectuals and orthodox rabbis echoing this sentiment.


_¸»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«SiG»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«¸_



“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice. Remember, God is the best of Protectors and well acquainted with all that you do.”
-Qur’an 4:135

"Don't be deceived when they tell you things are better now. Even if there's no poverty to be seen because the poverty's been hidden. Even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which industries foist on you and even if it seems to you that you never had so much, that is only the slogan of those who still have much more than you. Don't be taken in when they paternally pat you on the shoulder and say that there's no inequality worth speaking of and no more reason to fight because if you believe them they will be completely in charge in their marble homes and granite banks from which they rob the people of the world under the pretence of bringing them culture. Watch out, for as soon as it pleases them they'll send you out to protect their gold in wars whose weapons, rapidly developed by servile scientists, will become more and more deadly until they can with a flick of the finger tear a million of you to pieces."
--Jean Paul Marat, 18th Century French Visionary (and revolutionary), murdered in his bathtub by Royalist Charlotte Corday


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insanejake
Member since Feb 18th 2003
4885 posts
Tue Dec-28-04 03:22 AM

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115. "I question your "sources""
In response to Reply # 113


  

          

>its your type of apathy and rejectionism that plagued
>Germany during the rise of the Nazi party.

The good old Nazi analogy. "You like children and small animals: therefore you are like the Nazis".


>You rejected Israel's close military and economic relations
>w/ the brutal apartheid South Africa regime. That alone is a
>mind-numbing rejection of established fact- one that no
>Israeli I've ever met went so far as to make.

To be honest, it could well have happened, I dont know. I just dont read your sources, cos you will quote anyone as long as they agree with you...



>>The Israeli interest in South Africa sprang in part from the
>presence in South Africa of about 110,000 Jews, including at
>least 15,000 Israeli citizens. Israeli leaders sometimes
>justified trade with South Africa as support for the South
>African Jewish community, and South Africa provided a market
>for some of Israel's military exports.

There were Jews on all sides of the Struggle in SA:

http://www.mindspring.com/~jaypsand/sa2.htm


>you denied Israel's eugenics experiments that were exposed
>by Israeli TV. I refer you back to
>this
>post> which you probably ignored.


>your inability to honestly come to terms with the monsterous
>entity that the Israeli state is and has been undermines
>your capacity to arrive at just and amicable solutions

Im sure if you dug as deep as you have on most nations, you would come up with similar stories, either in the present or the past... Your capacity to arrive at just and amicable solutions is more compromised than mine I feel. I at least attempt to have an understanding of both sides, and to develop and think about solutions to the problems....

>>>the rest of your points are bullshit because you're going
>>>off conjecture. i never said suicide bombings are justified.
>>>i said Israeli terrorism, which predates Palestinian
>>>terrorism (so spare the 'reactionary' excuse), grossly
>>>dwarfs Palestinian terrorism.

Moral relativism anyone? And what about a "they started it" argument thrown in for good luck....

>What the fuck are you on? I have said on numerous occasions
>that I disagree and condemn the act of suicide bombing, but
>not necessarily the bomber.

So, I could disagree with Sharon and his parties actions, but agree with the Soldiers who are carrying them out? GTFOHWTBS

I summarized the reasons why I don't
>necessarily condemn the bomber as being because I believe
>their actions are the end result of multi-faceted physical
>and socio-economic Israeli state terrorism.

Let me flip this round. "I dont condemn the Israeli soldier who shot the 13 year old girl. I believe his actions are the end result of multi faceted physical Palestinian extremist terrorism...."

>>> your intellectual dishonesty
>>>in coming to terms with this simple fact for what it is
>>>reveals a lot about your committment to real solutions.

And your commitment is where? I never once saw you even attempting to put forward an idea that would solve some of these problems...

>>Really, so calling Israeli's Nazis, finding justifications
>>for suicide bombings and making shit up about Israelis is
>>progressing towards a solution.

>I didn't call Israelis Nazis. I compared zionists and the
>Israeli state with the Nazi party and its government
>policies and practices.

Why the Nazi party? And arent all Israelis, by definition, zionists?

I know personally of many
>Israelis who share this perspective and have even posted
>statements by prominent Jewish intellectuals and orthodox
>rabbis echoing this sentiment.

Some people agree with you. Congratulations. A million flies eat shit.

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

  

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zewari
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Tue Dec-28-04 09:07 AM

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116. "you are thoroughly disgusting"
In response to Reply # 115


  

          

end of discussion.

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insanejake
Member since Feb 18th 2003
4885 posts
Wed Dec-29-04 07:15 AM

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117. "Yup, that solved it"
In response to Reply # 116


  

          

deeply intellectual. You are progessing with this problem I can see. If everyone had your attitude there would be peace tomorrow....

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

  

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zewari
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7113 posts
Tue Dec-21-04 02:45 PM

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114. "UN Resolution 3379 identified zionism as a form of racism"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

read more about it . it provides a background to the resolution, which was rescinded in 1991. the actual text of the resolution stated the following:

THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY,

RECALLING its resolution 1904 (XVIII) of 20 November 1963,proclaiming the United Nations Declaration on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, and in particular its affirmation that "any doctrine of racial differentiation or superiority is scientifically false, morally condemnable, socially unjust and dangerous" and its expression of alarm at "the manifestations of racial discrimination still in evidence in some areas in the world, some of which are imposed by certain Governments by means of legislative, administrative or other measures",

RECALLING ALSO that, in its resolution 3151 G (XXVIII) of 14 December 1953, the General Assembly condemned, inter alia, the unholy alliance between South African racism and Zionism,

TAKING NOTE of the Declaration of Mexico on the Equality of Women and Their Contribution to Development and Peace 1975, proclaimed by the World Conference of the International Women's Year, held at Mexico City from 19 June to 2 July 1975, which promulgated the principle that "international co-operation and peace require the achievement of national liberation and independence, the elimination of colonialism and neo-colonialism, foreign occupation, Zionism, apartheid and racial discrimination in all its forms, as well as the recognition of the dignity of peoples and their right to self-determination",

TAKING NOTE ALSO of resolution 77 (XII) adopted by the Assembly of Heads of State and Government of the Organization of African Unity at its twelfth ordinary session, held at Kampala from 28 July to 1 August1975, which considered "that the racist regime in occupied Palestine and the racist regime in Zimbabwe and South Africa have a common imperialist origin, forming a whole and having the same racist structure and being organically linked in their policy aimed at repression of the dignity and integrity of the human being",

TAKING NOTE ALSO of the Political Declaration and Strategy to Strengthen International Peace and Security and to Intensify Solidarity and Mutual Assistance among Non-Aligned Countries, adopted at the Conference of Ministers for Foreign Affairs of Non-Aligned Countries held at Lima from 25 to 30 August 1975, which most severely condemned Zionism as a threat to world peace and security and called upon all countries to oppose this racist and imperialist ideology,

DETERMINES that Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination.

_¸»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«SiG»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«¸_



“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice. Remember, God is the best of Protectors and well acquainted with all that you do.”
-Qur’an 4:135

"Don't be deceived when they tell you things are better now. Even if there's no poverty to be seen because the poverty's been hidden. Even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which industries foist on you and even if it seems to you that you never had so much, that is only the slogan of those who still have much more than you. Don't be taken in when they paternally pat you on the shoulder and say that there's no inequality worth speaking of and no more reason to fight because if you believe them they will be completely in charge in their marble homes and granite banks from which they rob the people of the world under the pretence of bringing them culture. Watch out, for as soon as it pleases them they'll send you out to protect their gold in wars whose weapons, rapidly developed by servile scientists, will become more and more deadly until they can with a flick of the finger tear a million of you to pieces."
--Jean Paul Marat, 18th Century French Visionary (and revolutionary), murdered in his bathtub by Royalist Charlotte Corday


__________________________

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zewari
Charter member
7113 posts
Thu Jan-20-05 08:14 AM

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118. "request to archive"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

_¸»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«SiG»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«¸_



“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice. Remember, God is the best of Protectors and well acquainted with all that you do.”
-Qur’an 4:135

"Don't be deceived when they tell you things are better now. Even if there's no poverty to be seen because the poverty's been hidden. Even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which industries foist on you and even if it seems to you that you never had so much, that is only the slogan of those who still have much more than you. Don't be taken in when they paternally pat you on the shoulder and say that there's no inequality worth speaking of and no more reason to fight because if you believe them they will be completely in charge in their marble homes and granite banks from which they rob the people of the world under the pretence of bringing them culture. Watch out, for as soon as it pleases them they'll send you out to protect their gold in wars whose weapons, rapidly developed by servile scientists, will become more and more deadly until they can with a flick of the finger tear a million of you to pieces."
--Jean Paul Marat, 18th Century French Visionary (and revolutionary), murdered in his bathtub by Royalist Charlotte Corday


__________________________

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chrisdefendorf
Member since Dec 27th 2004
1731 posts
Sat Jan-22-05 10:19 AM

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119. "anti-NAZI is NAZI"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

which is one perspective, not one I would encourage or support...

However, they're agreeing to disagree. More Atheists: More potential wise people next time the swirl hit's em. And I ain't talking about what Nettrice calls the Swirl.

RollerCoaster

you don't need to know my sig, because you know my steez. I have left okayplayer and

and and and

you don't need to know.

myspace.com/raspberry

  

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zewari
Charter member
7113 posts
Sat Jan-22-05 05:16 PM

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120. "hhhwaaaaaaaatt??? (c) Lil' John"
In response to Reply # 119


  

          

seriously.. what did you mean by that?

_¸»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«SiG»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«¸_



“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice. Remember, God is the best of Protectors and well acquainted with all that you do.”
-Qur’an 4:135

"Don't be deceived when they tell you things are better now. Even if there's no poverty to be seen because the poverty's been hidden. Even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which industries foist on you and even if it seems to you that you never had so much, that is only the slogan of those who still have much more than you. Don't be taken in when they paternally pat you on the shoulder and say that there's no inequality worth speaking of and no more reason to fight because if you believe them they will be completely in charge in their marble homes and granite banks from which they rob the people of the world under the pretence of bringing them culture. Watch out, for as soon as it pleases them they'll send you out to protect their gold in wars whose weapons, rapidly developed by servile scientists, will become more and more deadly until they can with a flick of the finger tear a million of you to pieces."
--Jean Paul Marat, 18th Century French Visionary (and revolutionary), murdered in his bathtub by Royalist Charlotte Corday


__________________________

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chrisdefendorf
Member since Dec 27th 2004
1731 posts
Tue Mar-08-05 02:08 PM

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123. "it was creative license"
In response to Reply # 120


  

          

i dug the lil jon sample!!

creative license.


sig:
man you getting me in battle mode
and i don't even battle...lol...but thanx
Chris...you are pure inspiration!
(poet_is_me)

"chrisdefendorf and blaxxx are the
only reason i go
to activist"
okP Beartholomew, cited 2/27/05

are you stealthily castigating me with
the veracity i bring in the obtuse face
of your clownly aimless castigations?
(interpolation of several blaxx
sentences , no disrespect. )

<http://profiles.myspace.com/users/[br />10450673
:www.whatever.com
|whatever you wanna call it ]


NIGHTLY REPORTS ON MY
REALITY EXPLORATION/CREATION on
my
blog (updated during the day, and
then finished at 11PM EST)

PEACE,
Christopher (the name means
"chris... Dear Friend") Defendorf (the
name mean
"Raspberry" nahmean)

http://profiles.myspace.com/users/
10450673

you don't need to know my sig, because you know my steez. I have left okayplayer and

and and and

you don't need to know.

myspace.com/raspberry

  

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zewari
Charter member
7113 posts
Fri Feb-11-05 10:13 PM

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121. "Israeli measures to silence the voices of truth"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          



The PA condemns "Israeli measures to silence the voices of truth"

Anna Nillson from Sweden and Anna Lenna Di Govani from Italy are the latest in a growing number of human rights volunteers that Israel has denied entrance to as a way of preventing them from entering the West Bank and Gaza.

The Palestinian Government issued a statement yesterday "Condemning Israeli occupation measures which aim to silence the voices of truth".

According to the Palestinian Minister of State, Quaddura Faris, "The Israeli government is trying to cover up its crimes against the Palestinian land and people, especially those crimes relating to the settlement project known as the Wall. They are doing this by following, arresting, and deporting members of international solidarity movements. The Israeli government is afraid that these people explain Israeli policies and reveal Israeli crimes to the public in their countries. The Palestinian government appreciates the position of all who stand in solidarity with legitimate Palestinian rights.""
yes2wind.co.nz - Greenpeace
Anna joined other internationals including Israelis, and Palestinians in a three week march last summer along the route of the Israeli Apartheid wall. The Freedom March was part of a campaign organized by the International Solidarity Movement (ISM) a Palestinian led organization supporting nonviolent resistance to the Israeli Occupation. Yesterday she attempted to reenter the country only to discover that she had been added to Israel's Kafkaesque blacklist of people considered "security threats" by the state of Israel. Anna was denied entry and sent to Ethiopia. ISM has documented over one hundred such cases since April of 2002.

Pat O'Conner an ISM volunteer who is currently awaiting deportation in Maasiyahu Prison explains: "Israel denies access to the occupied territories to any international visitor who they feel takes a position in solidarity with the Palestinian people while internationals coming to support the settlers are welcomed".

O'Connor was arrested on January 24 by Israeli security agents after planting olive seedlings in the village of Biddu with Palestinian, Israeli and international human rights supporters. During the arrest, the security agents claimed that he was carrying a false Irish passport. However, the Irish embassy has confirmed the validity of O'Connor's passport. Furthermore, the Palestinian Authority has issued a letter acknowledging Mr. O'Connor's human rights work and inviting O'Connor to remain in the Occupied Palestine Territories. Still, Israel is deporting him.

Israeli attorney Gaby Lasky states "that "Israel conveniently turns humanitarian activists into security threats with the cynical use of 'security considerations'." She is demanding that Israel declassify the blacklist and publish the criteria determining who should be denied entry.

_¸»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«SiG»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«¸_



“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice. Remember, God is the best of Protectors and well acquainted with all that you do.”
-Qur’an 4:135

"Don't be deceived when they tell you things are better now. Even if there's no poverty to be seen because the poverty's been hidden. Even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which industries foist on you and even if it seems to you that you never had so much, that is only the slogan of those who still have much more than you. Don't be taken in when they paternally pat you on the shoulder and say that there's no inequality worth speaking of and no more reason to fight because if you believe them they will be completely in charge in their marble homes and granite banks from which they rob the people of the world under the pretence of bringing them culture. Watch out, for as soon as it pleases them they'll send you out to protect their gold in wars whose weapons, rapidly developed by servile scientists, will become more and more deadly until they can with a flick of the finger tear a million of you to pieces."
--Jean Paul Marat, 18th Century French Visionary (and revolutionary), murdered in his bathtub by Royalist Charlotte Corday


__________________________

www.supportblackowned.org

  

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zewari
Charter member
7113 posts
Tue Mar-08-05 01:34 PM

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122. "London's Mayor speaks out"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Ken Livingstone:

Not to speak out against this injustice would not only be wrong. It would ignore the threat it poses to us all

Ken Livingstone
Friday March 4, 2005
The Guardian

Racism is a uniquely reactionary ideology, used to justify the greatest crimes in history - the slave trade, the extermination of all original inhabitants of the Caribbean, the elimination of every native inhabitant of Tasmania, apartheid. The Holocaust was the ultimate, "industrialised" expression of racist barbarity.

Racism serves as the cutting edge of the most reactionary movements. An ideology that starts by declaring one human being inferior to another is the slope whose end is at Auschwitz. That is why I detest racism.

No serious commentator has argued that my comments to an Evening Standard reporter outside City Hall last month were anti-semitic. So I am glad that Henry Grunwald, president of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, accepted on these pages that "Ken is sincere when he states that he regards the Holocaust as the worst crime of the last century".

The contribution of Jewish people to human civilisation and culture is unexcelled and extraordinary. You only have to think of giants such as Einstein, Freud and Marx to realise that human civilisation would be unrecognisably diminished without the achievements of the Jewish people. The same goes for the Jewish contribution to London today.

As mayor, I have pressed for police action over anti-semitic attacks at the highest level, and my administration has backed a series of initiatives of importance to the Jewish community, including hosting the Anne Frank exhibition at City Hall and measures to ensure the go-ahead for the north London eruv.

Throughout the 1970s, I worked happily with the Board of Deputies in campaigns against the National Front. Problems began when, as leader of the Greater London Council, I rejected the board's request that I should fund only Jewish organisations that it approved of. The Board of Deputies was unhappy that I funded Jewish organisations campaigning for gay rights and others that disagreed with policies of the Israeli governmen.

Relations with the board took a dramatic turn for the worse when I opposed Israel's illegal invasion of Lebanon, culminating in the massacres at the Palestinian camps of Sabra and Shatila. The board also opposed my involvement in the successful campaign in 1982 to convince the Labour party to recognise the PLO as the legitimate voice of the Palestinian people.

The fundamental issue on which we differ, as Henry Grunwald knows, is not anti-semitism - which my administration has fought tooth and nail - but the policies of successive Israeli governments.

To avoid manufactured misunderstandings, the policies of Israeli governments are not analogous to Nazism. They do not aim at the systematic extermination of the Palestinian people, in the way Nazism sought the annihilation of the Jews.

Israel's expansion has included ethnic cleansing. Palestinians who had lived in that land for centuries were driven out by systematic violence and terror aimed at ethnically cleansing what became a large part of the Israeli state. The methods of groups like the Irgun and the Stern gang were the same as those of the Bosnian Serb leader Karadzic: to drive out people by terror.

Today the Israeli government continues seizures of Palestinian land for settlements, military incursions into surrounding countries and denial of the right of Palestinians expelled by terror to return. Ariel Sharon, Israel's prime minister, is a war criminal who should be in prison, not in office. Israel's own Kahan commission found that Sharon shared responsibility for the Sabra and Shatila massacres.

Sharon continues to organise terror. More than three times as many Palestinians as Israelis have been killed in the present conflict. There are more than 7,000 Palestinians in Israel's jails.

To obscure these truths, those around Israel's present government have resorted to demonisation. Initial targets were Palestinians, and have now become Muslims. Take the Middle East Media Research Institute, run by a former colonel in Israeli military intelligence, which poses as a source of objective information but in reality selectively translates material from Arabic and presents Muslims and Arabs in the worst possible light.

Today the Israeli government is helping to promote a wholly distorted picture of racism and religious discrimination in Europe, implying that the most serious upsurge of hatred and discrimination is against Jews.

All racist and anti-semitic attacks must be stamped out. However, the reality is that the great bulk of racist attacks in Europe today are on black people, Asians and Muslims - and they are the primary targets of the extreme right. For 20 years Israeli governments have attempted to portray anyone who forcefully criticises the policies of Israel as anti-semitic. The truth is the opposite: the same universal human values that recognise the Holocaust as the greatest racist crime of the 20th century require condemnation of the policies of successive Israeli governments - not on the absurd grounds that they are Nazi or equivalent to the Holocaust, but because ethnic cleansing, discrimination and terror are immoral.

They are also fuelling anger and violence across the world. For a mayor of London not to speak out against such injustice would not only be wrong - but would also ignore the threat it poses to the security of all Londoners.

· Ken Livingstone is the London mayor

_¸»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«SiG»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«¸_



“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice. Remember, God is the best of Protectors and well acquainted with all that you do.”
-Qur’an 4:135

"Don't be deceived when they tell you things are better now. Even if there's no poverty to be seen because the poverty's been hidden. Even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which industries foist on you and even if it seems to you that you never had so much, that is only the slogan of those who still have much more than you. Don't be taken in when they paternally pat you on the shoulder and say that there's no inequality worth speaking of and no more reason to fight because if you believe them they will be completely in charge in their marble homes and granite banks from which they rob the people of the world under the pretence of bringing them culture. Watch out, for as soon as it pleases them they'll send you out to protect their gold in wars whose weapons, rapidly developed by servile scientists, will become more and more deadly until they can with a flick of the finger tear a million of you to pieces."
--Jean Paul Marat, 18th Century French Visionary (and revolutionary), murdered in his bathtub by Royalist Charlotte Corday


__________________________

www.supportblackowned.org

  

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shamgodwells
Member since Mar 26th 2003
12 posts
Tue Mar-08-05 02:25 PM

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125. "RE: London's Mayor speaks out"
In response to Reply # 122


          

i will break your face bitch

  

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zewari
Charter member
7113 posts
Tue Mar-08-05 03:25 PM

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127. "crack really is a helluva drug"
In response to Reply # 125


  

          

_¸»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«SiG»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«¸_



“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice. Remember, God is the best of Protectors and well acquainted with all that you do.”
-Qur’an 4:135

"Don't be deceived when they tell you things are better now. Even if there's no poverty to be seen because the poverty's been hidden. Even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which industries foist on you and even if it seems to you that you never had so much, that is only the slogan of those who still have much more than you. Don't be taken in when they paternally pat you on the shoulder and say that there's no inequality worth speaking of and no more reason to fight because if you believe them they will be completely in charge in their marble homes and granite banks from which they rob the people of the world under the pretence of bringing them culture. Watch out, for as soon as it pleases them they'll send you out to protect their gold in wars whose weapons, rapidly developed by servile scientists, will become more and more deadly until they can with a flick of the finger tear a million of you to pieces."
--Jean Paul Marat, 18th Century French Visionary (and revolutionary), murdered in his bathtub by Royalist Charlotte Corday


__________________________

www.supportblackowned.org

  

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insanejake
Member since Feb 18th 2003
4885 posts
Tue Mar-15-05 06:48 AM

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128. "Wonderful, a corrupt turncoat hypocrite speaks out."
In response to Reply # 122


  

          

Do you know who red ken is? What his history is? What the background to this story is?

I did find this gratifying though:

>To avoid manufactured misunderstandings, the policies of
>Israeli governments are not analogous to Nazism. They do not
>aim at the systematic extermination of the Palestinian people,
>in the way Nazism sought the annihilation of the Jews.

Do you know why he called the journalist a Nazi in the first place?

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

  

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