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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
10706 posts
Wed Mar-23-05 07:14 AM

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"YOU PEOPLE don't think about YOURSELVES FIRST..."
Tue Mar-22-05 04:39 PM by MALACHI

  

          

"that is your main problem."

That is what my big time Republican, Baptist, super RICH, KOREAN (yes, I said KOREAN) employer told me.

I was 100% dumbfounded.

Then he said: "Your 'leaders' who care about you the most, you allow outsiders to discredit. Why do so many of you people allow others to dictate what you think about each other? Why is it that more of your people did not listen to Malcolm X? I do not agree with his religion, but if more of your people listened to him 40 years ago, you would be much better off now."

I tripped totally out a few months ago when we were having a discussion, and he pulled off of his bookshelf Amos Wilson's "Blueprint For Black Power", and "Powernomics" by Dr. Claud Anderson. I told him I had read both, and asked him what HE was doing reading those books, his reply was: "These books specifically explain what whites, Jews, and Asians have been doing for generations...but they are written FOR YOU. The bigger question is why HAVEN'T more Blacks READ THEM? Why aren't these books on the best seller list?" (I felt like somebody kicked me in the nuts.)

I admire my boss for several reasons: He will tell you point blank that he is a PAN-ASIANIST. And this viewpoint affects many, if not all of his BUSINESS DECISIONS...he speaks not only Korean, but Japanese, Mandarin Chinese, and Vietnamese, and is BIG into the Asian Chamber of Commerce. He owns 4-5 large shopping centers that have nothing in them but Asian businesses, he owns a Japanese restaurant, a Korean restaurant, and is opening another restaurant that is going to serve a variety of Asian dishes. He owns a construction company, a building maintenance contracting firm, several residential real estate properties, and business interests in Korea, Japan, and Costa Rica. And most intriguing: He and several of his Korean friends / business associates are looking to open a "school" where on the weekends and during the summer Korean kids born here in the U.S. will go to learn to speak, read and write Korean perfectly, learn Korean history, and learn business from an "Asian perspective".

My ongoing conversations with Mr. Kim (my boss) have made me ask some questions that I would like to pose here in OkayActivist::

Is the lack of cohesivenes among Black people THAT obvious to everyone else, including Asian immigrants?

Isn't it amazing that Black "Conservatives" seem to distance from Pan-Africanism /Black Nationalism, but Jewish or Asian "Conservatives" EMBRACE their respective ethnicity?

In your opinion, how important (if at all) is a sense of history and culture to the economic success of A GROUP?

Let's build...PEACE










"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
Powernomics was on the Essence best-seller list.
Mar 22nd 2005
1
Which means it sold how many copies? What do
Mar 22nd 2005
2
      My Confessions had a bonus DVD featuring Claud Anderson
Mar 22nd 2005
3
           LOL
Mar 23rd 2005
45
I've had similar conversations with my Korean ex-boss
Mar 22nd 2005
4
I have seen this EXACT same thing:
Mar 22nd 2005
8
      I've told my friends and family in advance we won't be
Mar 22nd 2005
10
           why do people take offense to that? it's amazing...
Mar 22nd 2005
19
                ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mar 23rd 2005
44
                I don't get it either.
Mar 23rd 2005
47
RE: YOU PEOPLE don't think about YOURSELVES FIRST...
Mar 22nd 2005
5
cmon buddy
Mar 22nd 2005
9
      RE: cmon buddy
Mar 22nd 2005
11
           RE: cmon buddy
Mar 22nd 2005
12
                RE: cmon buddy
Mar 22nd 2005
13
                     RE: cmon buddy
Mar 22nd 2005
21
                          RE: cmon buddy
Mar 22nd 2005
25
                               RE: cmon buddy
Mar 22nd 2005
28
                                    RE: cmon buddy
Mar 23rd 2005
46
                                         RE: cmon buddy
Mar 23rd 2005
53
                                              RE: cmon buddy
Mar 23rd 2005
62
Speaking of reading...
Mar 22nd 2005
6
W O W
Mar 22nd 2005
7
RE: W O W
Mar 22nd 2005
14
      RE: W O W
Mar 22nd 2005
23
           RE: W O W
Mar 23rd 2005
52
                whoaaa...slow down.
Mar 23rd 2005
56
                     I am right there with you on this:
Mar 23rd 2005
58
What's up with black People?
Mar 22nd 2005
15
huh?
Mar 22nd 2005
16
      RE: huh?
Mar 22nd 2005
17
           Uhhhh...
Mar 22nd 2005
18
                yall trippin'
Mar 22nd 2005
20
                Who's got the guts to answer this man's question?
Mar 22nd 2005
27
                Uhm where is the question? Who needs guts on msg board?
Mar 23rd 2005
43
                Damn. So I guess them asian gangs runnin amok
Mar 22nd 2005
29
                     first that weak ass inbox u sent
Mar 22nd 2005
30
                          Damn...I forgot there is a character limit.
Mar 22nd 2005
31
                               *sigh*...
Mar 22nd 2005
32
                                    *scratches head*
Mar 22nd 2005
33
                                         *scratches head too*
Mar 22nd 2005
35
                                              you indeed are incredible.
Mar 22nd 2005
36
                                                   oh boy.
Mar 23rd 2005
50
                                                        red herring.
Mar 23rd 2005
51
                                                             and i asked you THIS QUESTION in GD!!!
Mar 23rd 2005
54
                Let Me Rehash
Mar 22nd 2005
34
BLACKS HAVE BEEN CONDITIONED TO BE IGNORANT SINCE SLAVERY
Mar 22nd 2005
22
wow he sounds like a very interesting cat
Mar 22nd 2005
24
He is VERY INTERESTING...On my 2nd interview,
Mar 23rd 2005
57
      word up....
Mar 23rd 2005
66
re:
Mar 22nd 2005
26
It's easier looking from the outside
Mar 22nd 2005
37
:-)
Mar 23rd 2005
42
Interesting perspective.
Mar 23rd 2005
55
      Yep
Mar 23rd 2005
60
           I'm looking to take an african language course this summer.
Mar 23rd 2005
61
PART II--So I asked him what EXACTLY he meant by
Mar 23rd 2005
39
your boss is a wise man...however...
Mar 23rd 2005
40
I though he sounded particularly UN-Republican when
Mar 23rd 2005
59
JHC calls this the "essential selfishness of survival"
Mar 23rd 2005
41
Agreed. on everything.
Mar 23rd 2005
49
Dr. Clarke also said to look at modern day Japan
Mar 23rd 2005
64
He is so right, and i feel that integration played a big part in
Mar 23rd 2005
48
PART III---The REAL BOMB DROPPING begins...
Mar 23rd 2005
63
u a lie.
Mar 23rd 2005
65
If he is lying...
Mar 23rd 2005
68
good points...
Mar 23rd 2005
69
Oh, I agree. wholeheartedly. I'm just sayin. He lying.
Mar 23rd 2005
70
      I haven't laughed since Pac died *mean mug*
Mar 23rd 2005
76
Yep
Mar 23rd 2005
71
      Nah, its actually true it seems, I was just joshin.
Mar 23rd 2005
72
      I wish my imagination was this vivid...and
Mar 23rd 2005
73
           You need a documentary on the message.
Mar 23rd 2005
74
           My question is
Mar 23rd 2005
75
                I can't lie. I've struggled with this too. I have associates
Mar 24th 2005
77
*blinks*
Mar 23rd 2005
67
he makes some good points, but it's not quite that simple
Mar 24th 2005
84
This is the question
Mar 24th 2005
78
I shudder to say the arts.
Mar 24th 2005
79
So all we good fo is sangin and jivin.
Mar 24th 2005
80
      what sort of trade?
Mar 24th 2005
82
           It was a joke...
Mar 24th 2005
83
                lol. I intially thought it was a joke.
Mar 25th 2005
85
Powernomics lays out a few suggestions
Mar 24th 2005
81
an attempt.
Mar 25th 2005
86
Firebrand...
Mar 25th 2005
87
It might be.
Mar 25th 2005
88

tha8thjewel
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Tue Mar-22-05 04:24 PM

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1. "Powernomics was on the Essence best-seller list."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Just wanted to put that out there. Otherwise, good post, I'll come back and elaborate later.


"Alphas are that good high...stick witcha, you can't shake that shit...like heroin. You'll always be addicted."
--OKP novembersgift

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
10706 posts
Tue Mar-22-05 04:34 PM

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2. "Which means it sold how many copies? What do"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

you think Black people bought more: "Powernomics", or Usher's last album?

lol

PEACE

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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tha8thjewel
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Tue Mar-22-05 04:45 PM

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3. "My Confessions had a bonus DVD featuring Claud Anderson"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          



"Alphas are that good high...stick witcha, you can't shake that shit...like heroin. You'll always be addicted."
--OKP novembersgift

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
10706 posts
Wed Mar-23-05 10:30 AM

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45. "LOL"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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FireBrand
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Tue Mar-22-05 04:45 PM

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4. "I've had similar conversations with my Korean ex-boss"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


And with Jewish friends I have. They said point blank that the community is what drives everything. My ex-boss? When he got married, they (his guests) did not bring him toasters and stuff like that, they brought him cash. He had 50G's to put down on his 250K house. He bought his car cash, from a dealership where he had connects- a 2003 Acura.

Jamaiacans tend to work together, but we are so competitive that it doesn't equate to what I see other communities doing. I see all the very successful communities do this, and when WE talk about coming together you got some folk talking that "Like Minded" nonsense, and others squawking about "Why we got to work together, to each his own" BS too.

What we need to do is get the committed. The TRULY committed and make a REAL commitment to growth. The question is, what is that first step.

I talked with Ananse and Dr. Baruti about this a few years back, and I STILL think it can be done. I'm down. Tell me where to move.

******************************
www.okayplayer.com/guidelines
_____________________________
Inaug'ral Member of the OkaySports Hall of Fame.

DUNNT

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
10706 posts
Tue Mar-22-05 05:07 PM

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8. "I have seen this EXACT same thing:"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

>And with Jewish friends I have. They said point blank that
>the community is what drives everything. My ex-boss? When he
>got married, they (his guests) did not bring him toasters and
>stuff like that, they brought him cash. He had 50G's to put
>down on his 250K house. He bought his car cash, from a
>dealership where he had connects- a 2003 Acura.

My wife and I went to a friend's wedding (she is Italian), and I saw VERY FEW wedding gifts in boxes...people walked up to her and her new husband and gave them envelopes with dead presidents in them. Looked just like the wedding reception scene in "Goodfellas". I know for a fact that they had enough loot to pay off both of their cars, which helped them to build a NICE house almost immediately.

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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FireBrand
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Tue Mar-22-05 05:15 PM

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10. "I've told my friends and family in advance we won't be"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

accepting gifts at all, and that we would rather have cash. They are all very upset about that. I told them $5 is better than a toaster. They don't even want to break themselves of what is in my circumstance a foolish gift.
******************************
www.okayplayer.com/guidelines
_____________________________
Inaug'ral Member of the OkaySports Hall of Fame.

DUNNT

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
16992 posts
Tue Mar-22-05 06:47 PM

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19. "why do people take offense to that? it's amazing..."
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

Bring cash so WE CAN BUY OUR SHIT. Where the fucki I'm gonna put gifts if I ain't got a fuckin' HOUSE?

... dummies.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
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Wed Mar-23-05 10:30 AM

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44. "ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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FireBrand
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Wed Mar-23-05 11:57 AM

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47. "I don't get it either."
In response to Reply # 19


  

          


******************************
www.okayplayer.com/guidelines

http://profiles.myspace.com/users/3870323
******************************
Inaug'ral Member of the OkaySports Hall of Fame.

DUNNT

  

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sunngodd
Member since Feb 20th 2003
8324 posts
Tue Mar-22-05 04:49 PM

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5. "RE: YOU PEOPLE don't think about YOURSELVES FIRST..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>Is the lack of cohesivenes among Black people THAT obvious to
>everyone else, including Asian immigrants?

Probably more obvious than we think. As a minority group, we forego a major advantage we could have by failing to think collectively.

>Isn't it amazing that Black "Conservatives" seem to distance
>from Pan-Africanism /Black Nationalism, but Jewish or Asian
>"Conservatives" EMBRACE their ethnic cultures?

This is why Black Conservatives haven't been very successful in the Black Community. Instead of embracing their culture and espousing their views from a Black Nationalist perspective, they want to be known as simply "American."

This is a shame, because there are a lot of Black Conservatives out there that have a lot to offer the Black community, but they're espousing their message from the wrong perspective.

>In your opinion, how important (if at all) is a sense of
>history and culture to the economic success of A GROUP?

If you're a minority, it's absolutely essential. Dr. Anderson clearly points out the advantages of acting as a group. IMO, there's so much self-hate that needs to be stamped out before group action is even possible. We still don't trust each other.
------------------------------

“He may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Tue Mar-22-05 05:12 PM

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9. "cmon buddy"
In response to Reply # 5


          

>This is why Black Conservatives haven't been very successful
>in the Black Community. Instead of embracing their culture
>and espousing their views from a Black Nationalist
>perspective, they want to be known as simply "American."

- thats funny. you all cant even expound on what being "black" in america in 2005 is yet you critisize those who simply say "im an american"...we all know the reasons why black conservatives arent successfull in the black community, why are you trying to act?

  

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sunngodd
Member since Feb 20th 2003
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Tue Mar-22-05 05:17 PM

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11. "RE: cmon buddy"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

>- thats funny. you all cant even expound on what being "black"
>in america in 2005 is yet you critisize those who simply say
>"im an american"...

There's nothing wrong with saying "i'm an american" per se, but we give up clear advantages that we could use to our benefit when we fail to act as a group


we all know the reasons why black
>conservatives arent successfull in the black community

why?


------------------------------

“He may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
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Tue Mar-22-05 05:21 PM

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12. "RE: cmon buddy"
In response to Reply # 11


          

>There's nothing wrong with saying "i'm an american" per se,
>but we give up clear advantages that we could use to our
>benefit when we fail to act as a group

- cmon now. you just said that black conservatives dont embrace black culture. you gotta expound man. in 2005 what is "black" and "black culture" and how arent black conservatives embracing this?

>we all know the reasons why black
>>conservatives arent successfull in the black community
>
>why?

- cmon man. seriously.

  

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sunngodd
Member since Feb 20th 2003
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Tue Mar-22-05 05:30 PM

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13. "RE: cmon buddy"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

>- cmon now. you just said that black conservatives dont
>embrace black culture. you gotta expound man. in 2005 what is
>"black" and "black culture" and how arent black conservatives
>embracing this?

OK, "embracing thier culture" was a bad choice of words. I was just saying that they could be more effective at communicating their message if they framed it a different way.


>- cmon man. seriously.

seriously, i told you what i think.


------------------------------

“He may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
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Tue Mar-22-05 06:57 PM

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21. "RE: cmon buddy"
In response to Reply # 13


          

>OK, "embracing thier culture" was a bad choice of words. I
>was just saying that they could be more effective at
>communicating their message if they framed it a different
>way.

- oh ive heard this argument TONS of times. dont say "blacks lead in hiv/AIDS" without elaborating on what was done to us that got us here, or dont say "blacks are lagging behind academically" without saying what white people did to us that got us there...but in doing that that is A) suggesting that without whitey we are nothing (which ive heard gates do on bill oreillys program before) and B) that we REALLY have no control over own communities and lives in america.

the reason why black conservatives havent taken off in the black community is because we dont embrace the "victim" mentallity. typical black leadership does though. they have gotten visibly rich off of this and the black community continues to get worse. how we arent outraged at this is beyond me...but that is another topic altogether.

  

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sunngodd
Member since Feb 20th 2003
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Tue Mar-22-05 07:31 PM

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25. "RE: cmon buddy"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

- oh ive heard this argument TONS of times. dont say "blacks
>lead in hiv/AIDS" without elaborating on what was done to us
>that got us here, or dont say "blacks are lagging behind
>academically" without saying what white people did to us that
>got us there...

Black Conservatives say "blacks are contracting Aids because of immoral and irresponsible sexual practices." While this statment would be 100% true, the criticism means nothing if you're not doing anthing the change the situation. I don't want to be to general, becuase I know there are some Black Conservatives that have some good programs going (Like Peterson's manhood training thing), but for the most part, I see a lot of condemnation without a lot of follow up. Maybe i'm wrong though, maybe it's there and I just don't know about it.

but in doing that that is A) suggesting that
>without whitey we are nothing (which ive heard gates do on
>bill oreillys program before) and B) that we REALLY have no
>control over own communities and lives in america.

I agree

>the reason why black conservatives havent taken off in the
>black community is because we dont embrace the "victim"
>mentallity.

Interesting point. I still thinks it's more of a communication issue. I think there are a lot of Black People out there that agree (the "Black silent majority" that McWhorter talked about), but the message isn't getting across.

typical black leadership does though. they have
>gotten visibly rich off of this and the black community
>continues to get worse. how we arent outraged at this is
>beyond me...but that is another topic altogether.

I wouldn't say that this only a phenomenon of liberal black leaders


------------------------------

“He may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
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Tue Mar-22-05 07:56 PM

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28. "RE: cmon buddy"
In response to Reply # 25


          

>Black Conservatives say "blacks are contracting Aids because
>of immoral and irresponsible sexual practices." While this
>statment would be 100% true, the criticism means nothing if
>you're not doing anthing the change the situation.

- well let's look at that: how do you stop the spread of aids? what can be done outside of what the GOVT/CDC has already done? AIDS awareness programs and articles are literally EVERYWHERE. I cant name the last time i didnt open a magazine/newspaper and didnt see an ad on AIDS, turn on the net and not see a pop up or ad for a site on AIDS awareness, tv commercials, radio spots...Aids awareness is literally everywhere its unavoidable in this country as it should be. now, what do you want next? for there to be people with latex gloves going around peoples apartments and pulling men out before they spread the virus!? not trying to be funny or make light of it but im really asking you what is next!?. there is literally NOTHING you can do about the AIDS problem other than talk and give out info. this horse has been just staring at the water for over a decade now...hell, last month when that new disease popped up in the gay community, the health official just came out and said "dont put anything up your butt that doesnt have latex on it"...its time we got raw and real with our own people like that. surely u dont disagree.

>I don't
>want to be to general, becuase I know there are some Black
>Conservatives that have some good programs going (Like
>Peterson's manhood training thing), but for the most part, I
>see a lot of condemnation without a lot of follow up. Maybe
>i'm wrong though, maybe it's there and I just don't know about
>it.

- I hear you, but its kind of hard to to follow up when the community doesnt believe in your message to begin with. i mean a black teen mother who has babies by men she doesnt even know doesnt wanna hear that she needs to shape up and get her shit together and that she made her bed now lie in it, she wants to hear somebody tell her how she didnt have a daddy, and how her environment affected her, and how the record label CEO's are to blame for the sexual lyrics, how she is strong yada yada yada...i mean it boils down to the way we approach the problems. most people dont like the way black conservatives approach the problems...


>Interesting point. I still thinks it's more of a
>communication issue. I think there are a lot of Black People
>out there that agree (the "Black silent majority" that
>McWhorter talked about), but the message isn't getting
>across.

- I could link you up to an article online where john mcwhorter got up in front of a group of people and went into his "thing" and it pissed the black folks off. after a little while the people began to hear him and they were knodding their heads yes (of course u had your "activists" in the room) but for the most part the audience agreed...the problem wasn't his MESSAGE, it was that he was saying it above a whisper and into a microphone. I mean think about it, when was the last time a black liberal/nationalist "leader" directly confronted a black conservative on issues concerning the black community? jesse has them on his show all the time and they can NEVER argue his POINTS, they just call him names or hang the phone up on him. its hillarious to hear but disturbing at the same time. when i first heard jesse peterson i wanted to dismiss that man with all my heart, but i couldnt (cant) ignore the fact that nobody to this day has been able to shut down his arguments about the black community (maybe his undying love for white people and the republican party but on our community!? flawless.)...all they can do is make fun of how he talks and call him "uncle tom"...

>typical black leadership does though. they have
>>gotten visibly rich off of this and the black community
>>continues to get worse. how we arent outraged at this is
>>beyond me...but that is another topic altogether.
>
>I wouldn't say that this only a phenomenon of liberal black
>leaders

- oh i wouldnt either.

  

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sunngodd
Member since Feb 20th 2003
8324 posts
Wed Mar-23-05 11:14 AM

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46. "RE: cmon buddy"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

>- well let's look at that: how do you stop the spread of aids?
>what can be done outside of what the GOVT/CDC has already
>done? AIDS awareness programs and articles are literally
>EVERYWHERE. I cant name the last time i didnt open a
>magazine/newspaper and didnt see an ad on AIDS, turn on the
>net and not see a pop up or ad for a site on AIDS awareness,
>tv commercials, radio spots...Aids awareness is literally
>everywhere its unavoidable in this country as it should be.
>now, what do you want next? for there to be people with latex
>gloves going around peoples apartments and pulling men out
>before they spread the virus!? not trying to be funny or make
>light of it but im really asking you what is next!?. there is
>literally NOTHING you can do about the AIDS problem other than
>talk and give out info. this horse has been just staring at
>the water for over a decade now...hell, last month when that
>new disease popped up in the gay community, the health
>official just came out and said "dont put anything up your
>butt that doesnt have latex on it"...its time we got raw and
>real with our own people like that. surely u dont disagree.

You're right on this point. The problem with my argument was that I wasn't clear about what I meant when I first posted, so when I was confronted as you did, my argument fell apart. So I can't argue with you on this, it's the truth.

With that said, allow me to try to restate my disagreement with black conservatives. When I spoke of "embracing their culture," what I was trying to say Black Conservatives, it seems, have gone to far in embracing American individualism.

They look at how white people have behaved in that respect, and assume that Black people should do the same thing. And their not wrong in saying that any single person can have success in America, that's obvious to anybody. However, totally embracing indivdualism, IMO, would be a mistake. We have to be concerned about the welfare of oursleves as a group. That how a minority succeeds: they turn their small numbers and isolation, things that could be disadvantages, into advantages. I don't think Black Conservatives see the value in this.


Are you contradicting yourself? Explain this, first you say this:

>- I hear you, but its kind of hard to to follow up when the
>community doesnt believe in your message to begin with.

then you say this:

>- I could link you up to an article online where john
>mcwhorter got up in front of a group of people and went into
>his "thing" and it pissed the black folks off. after a little
>while the people began to hear him and they were knodding
>their heads yes (of course u had your "activists" in the room)
>but for the most part the audience agreed...the problem wasn't
>his MESSAGE, it was that he was saying it above a whisper and
>into a microphone.

So is this problem the "message", or isn't it?

Send me that article though, I vaguely remeber hearing someing about that.

I mean think about it, when was the last
>time a black liberal/nationalist "leader" directly confronted
>a black conservative on issues concerning the black community?

PLEASE don't confuse Black Liberals and Black Nationalists. The Black Nationalist wants Black people to exercise economic, political, and social control over the Black community. IMO, Black nationalism is not itself a solution, it's the point we need to get to before we're even in a position to impliment realistic solutions.

Black Liberals, on the other hand, doesn't think Black People can solve their own problems. They naively think that the Government can solve our problems (or would ever want to, even if they could). Their biggest mistake is that, even if liberal solutions could solve the problems of the Black community, you're not even in the position to demand that the government do so until you have political, economic, and social control over your own community.

>jesse has them on his show all the time and they can NEVER
>argue his POINTS, they just call him names or hang the phone
>up on him. its hillarious to hear but disturbing at the same
>time. when i first heard jesse peterson i wanted to dismiss
>that man with all my heart, but i couldnt (cant) ignore the
>fact that nobody to this day has been able to shut down his
>arguments about the black community (maybe his undying love
>for white people and the republican party but on our
>community!? flawless.)

Who has hed had on there?

...all they can do is make fun of how he
>talks and call him "uncle tom"...

LOL, I have to admit, I laugh every time he says "RE-PUB-ER-KIN."
------------------------------

“He may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Wed Mar-23-05 01:08 PM

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53. "RE: cmon buddy"
In response to Reply # 46


          

>With that said, allow me to try to restate my disagreement
>with black conservatives. When I spoke of "embracing their
>culture," what I was trying to say Black Conservatives, it
>seems, have gone to far in embracing American individualism.

- would it be far fetched to say that the bulk of african americans have embraced american individualism? lets not play around here, most black folks have an "i got mines get yours" mentallity. this mentallity isnt exclusive to "black conservatives." people like to shit on republicans for being greedy and not caring about the "little" guy, but go into the ghettoes and inner cities all over this country. black folks walk around with phat farm, nike, big rims on their SUV's, 200 dollar sneakers, we've got the flat screen TV's, we've got the state of the art DVD/Mp3 players, we have the resources to help one another out, but we don't do this. in fact, we ridicule other black folks that are too poor to afford these things (which is why so many black men sell drugs to buy shit, not to eat)!!...cmon now, let's cut the act that we are this down trodden group of people that have nothing and that we rely soley on one another to keep going in america, and that black conservatives are the "bad guys"....

>They look at how white people have behaved in that respect,
>and assume that Black people should do the same thing. And
>their not wrong in saying that any single person can have
>success in America, that's obvious to anybody.

- are you sure about that? you and I might know this but i dont believe your average black person believes this.

>However,
>totally embracing indivdualism, IMO, would be a mistake. We
>have to be concerned about the welfare of oursleves as a
>group. That how a minority succeeds: they turn their small
>numbers and isolation, things that could be disadvantages,
>into advantages. I don't think Black Conservatives see the
>value in this.

- I agree with what you are saying but to solely say that black conservatives are the only people guilty of this in our community is just short of comedy.

>Are you contradicting yourself? Explain this, first you say
>this:
>
>>- I hear you, but its kind of hard to to follow up when the
>>community doesnt believe in your message to begin with.
>
>then you say this:
>
>>- I could link you up to an article online where john
>>mcwhorter got up in front of a group of people and went into
>>his "thing" and it pissed the black folks off. after a
>little
>>while the people began to hear him and they were knodding
>>their heads yes (of course u had your "activists" in the
>room)
>>but for the most part the audience agreed...the problem
>wasn't
>>his MESSAGE, it was that he was saying it above a whisper
>and
>>into a microphone.
>
>So is this problem the "message", or isn't it?

- NO! my point is that we KNOW the message. we KNOW what black conservatives are saying is true because we ALL talk like this in the privacy of our own homes...but to publicly acknowledge these things as TRUTHS and then go from there = embracing the message. when I say that the black community doesnt embrace the message, I'm saying that we need to start building our strategy around that message and ideology, and that won't happen in 6 million years.

>Send me that article though, I vaguely remeber hearing someing
>about that.

http://www.racematters.org/mcwhorter.htm


>PLEASE don't confuse Black Liberals and Black Nationalists.
>The Black Nationalist wants Black people to exercise economic,
>political, and social control over the Black community. IMO,
>Black nationalism is not itself a solution, it's the point we
>need to get to before we're even in a position to impliment
>realistic solutions.

- I have heard black liberals make this argument, mainly in regards to how outsiders come into our communities and set up shop and get rich.

>Black Liberals, on the other hand, doesn't think Black People
>can solve their own problems. They naively think that the
>Government can solve our problems (or would ever want to, even
>if they could). Their biggest mistake is that, even if
>liberal solutions could solve the problems of the Black
>community, you're not even in the position to demand that the
>government do so until you have political, economic, and
>social control over your own community.

- I oh agree. I wasn't trying to say they were the same, I was just separating them from black conservatives.


>Who has hed had on there?

- I cant say i've listened to the show as often as I like but under his archives u can see the types of guests he has on there...I know he had maxine waters on there and she hung up on him when it got too hot. just listen to some of his archived shows. he brings some TOUGH QUESTIONS to these people.

http://www.soundwaves2000.com/peterson/insert/

  

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sunngodd
Member since Feb 20th 2003
8324 posts
Wed Mar-23-05 04:09 PM

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62. "RE: cmon buddy"
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

>- would it be far fetched to say that the bulk of african
>americans have embraced american individualism? lets not play
>around here, most black folks have an "i got mines get yours"
>mentallity. this mentallity isnt exclusive to "black
>conservatives." people like to shit on republicans for being
>greedy and not caring about the "little" guy, but go into the
>ghettoes and inner cities all over this country. black folks
>walk around with phat farm, nike, big rims on their SUV's, 200
>dollar sneakers, we've got the flat screen TV's, we've got the
>state of the art DVD/Mp3 players, we have the resources to
>help one another out, but we don't do this. in fact, we
>ridicule other black folks that are too poor to afford these
>things (which is why so many black men sell drugs to buy shit,
>not to eat)!!

no doubt.


...cmon now, let's cut the act that we are this
>down trodden group of people that have nothing and that we
>rely soley on one another to keep going in america, and that
>black conservatives are the "bad guys"....

Despite all that we do have, we still have no wealth. I don't think most of us even understand what wealth is, let alone how to use it for our collective advantage.

>- are you sure about that? you and I might know this but i
>dont believe your average black person believes this.

I think the average Black person knows they can succeed. The "racism holds us down" argument is more rhetoric that has been passed down though the generations than anything else, we've yet to re-examine that claim in light of current situations. But there are too many who still actually belive they can't succeed thorugh tradional means, by this I mean the kid that grows up in the hood with few role models thinks he can make it as an entertainer, but has no beleief that he can make in the "white" world.


>- I agree with what you are saying but to solely say that
>black conservatives are the only people guilty of this in our
>community is just short of comedy.

Most black people beleive this. I'm hard on Black Conservatives on this issue because, if they would embrace the principle of collective economic action, it could represent a regaining of what we lost after the civil rights movement.

>- NO! my point is that we KNOW the message. we KNOW what black
>conservatives are saying is true because we ALL talk like this
>in the privacy of our own homes...but to publicly acknowledge
>these things as TRUTHS and then go from there = embracing the
>message. when I say that the black community doesnt embrace
>the message, I'm saying that we need to start building our
>strategy around that message and ideology,

Ok, I see what you're saying.

and that won't
>happen in 6 million years.

i think it will.

>>Send me that article though, I vaguely remeber hearing
>someing
>>about that.
>
>http://www.racematters.org/mcwhorter.htm

Good shit, thanks.


>- I cant say i've listened to the show as often as I like but
>under his archives u can see the types of guests he has on
>there...I know he had maxine waters on there and she hung up
>on him when it got too hot. just listen to some of his
>archived shows. he brings some TOUGH QUESTIONS to these
>people.
>
>http://www.soundwaves2000.com/peterson/insert/

i'll have to bookmark this and go though some of it when I get time

------------------------------

“He may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
10706 posts
Tue Mar-22-05 04:51 PM

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6. "Speaking of reading..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


>I tripped totally out a few months ago when we were having a
>discussion, and he pulled off of his bookshelf Amos Wilson's
>"Blueprint For Black Power", and "Powernomics" by Dr. Claud
>Anderson. I told him I had read both, and asked him what HE
>was doing reading those books, his reply was: "These books
>specifically explain what whites, Jews, and Asians have been
>doing for generations...but they are written FOR YOU. The
>bigger question is why HAVEN'T more Blacks READ THEM? Why
>aren't these books on the best seller list?"

Mr. Kim hipped me to the book "BLACKONOMIC$--The Way to Psychological and Economic Freedom for African Americans" by James Clingman. (shamefully I had to admit I had neither heard of the author or the book)

Here is a link:
www.blackonomics.com/books.ihtml

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Tue Mar-22-05 05:02 PM

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7. "W O W"
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Mar-22-05 05:06 PM by suave_bro

          

>My ongoing conversations with Mr. Kim (my boss) have made me
>ask some questions that I would like to pose here in
>OkayActivist::
>
>Is the lack of cohesivenes among Black people THAT obvious to
>everyone else, including Asian immigrants?

- absolutely. but if your boss had said this to your average everyday non-thinking 106 n park watching black person his comments would have been labeled as "racist."

>Isn't it amazing that Black "Conservatives" seem to distance
>from Pan-Africanism /Black Nationalism, but Jewish or Asian
>"Conservatives" EMBRACE their respective ethnicity?

- this question is a bit confusing; are you asking why dont black conservatives embrace black nationalism and pan africanism or why dont black conservatives embrace their "ethnicity?"

>In your opinion, how important (if at all) is a sense of
>history and culture to the economic success of A GROUP?

- not important at all. one has nothing to do with the other. that's like saying a black person cant become rich and learn how to make their money grow if they dont fully understand their culture and black history...

your boss is right though.

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
10706 posts
Tue Mar-22-05 05:53 PM

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14. "RE: W O W"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          


>- absolutely. but if your boss had said this to your average
>everyday non-thinking 106 n park watching black person his
>comments would have been labeled as "racist."
I was thinking the same thing...and while his comment was BRUTALLY DIRECT, I know exactly what he was getting across.

>- this question is a bit confusing; are you asking why dont
>black conservatives embrace black nationalism and pan
>africanism or why dont black conservatives embrace their
>"ethnicity?"
Allow me to clarify, Mr. Kim is DEEP "into" Asian culture, despite being here since 1980. When he started gaining weight, he immediately stopped eating all "American" food, and started practicing Tae Kwon Do again. 2-3 times per year, he goes back to Korea to "reconnect", despite the fact that his parents are dead and all of his family lives here in the U.S. Both of his kids, despite being born in here speak Korean and Japanese fluently, and have a tutor that teaches them Asian history. He is in some "group" (I don't have a lot of info about it) that is working for the unification of North and South Korea. What I'm saying is, I have never heard of Black people who claim to be conservative pushing for or even interested in African history, culture, or language.

>- not important at all. one has nothing to do with the other.
>that's like saying a black person cant become rich and learn
>how to make their money grow if they dont fully understand
>their culture and black history...
Which is EXACTLY why a specified "A GROUP". I know a "person" can individually get rich. But from what I know about economic history and sociology in this country, when GROUPS make/made powerful economic moves oftentimes there is/was a CLEARLY DEFINED racial and/or cultural link. You see it with Italians, Jews, Asians, and most recently, I am seeing it with people of Arab/Middle Eastern descent. My boss has a "crew" that he rolls with---all Koreans, all rich. They meet every Thursday afternoon, and while they have all made their individual fortunes, they make BIG MOVES together...generally high-rise real estate acqusitions. Anyway, when they meet, they eat rice and kimchee(which is a staple Korean food), they open and close their little meetings singing something in Korean...and Mr. Kim makes no bones about the fact that they can make POWER MOVES because they present a united front. What unites them? Language. Culture. History. Race.

>your boss is right though.
Yeah, I know.

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Tue Mar-22-05 07:20 PM

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23. "RE: W O W"
In response to Reply # 14


          

>Allow me to clarify, Mr. Kim is DEEP "into" Asian culture,
>despite being here since 1980. When he started gaining
>weight, he immediately stopped eating all "American" food, and
>started practicing Tae Kwon Do again. 2-3 times per year, he
>goes back to Korea to "reconnect", despite the fact that his
>parents are dead and all of his family lives here in the U.S.
>Both of his kids, despite being born in here speak Korean and
>Japanese fluently, and have a tutor that teaches them Asian
>history. He is in some "group" (I don't have a lot of info
>about it) that is working for the unification of North and
>South Korea. What I'm saying is, I have never heard of Black
>people who claim to be conservative pushing for or even
>interested in African history, culture, or language.

- well first of all I would ask you do you personally know any black people that identify themselves as "black conservative." then I would ask you if you have ever been in their homes and TALKED with them one on one. if you did, you might be suprised at how knowledgeable about their history, at what books are on their shelves etc.,...this idea that all black conservatives care about is money and white people is a myth. seperate yourself from that...secondly, it just sounds like your manager is a DEEP individual. he has a PERSONAL interest in his culture and his language...now, the average black person out here regardless of their political beliefs or intelligence/education level doesnt know or CARE about where they are from, the language they use to speak or their african history...why are you riding black conservatives so hard? do you hold us to a higher standard than every other black person?


>Which is EXACTLY why a specified "A GROUP". I know a "person"
>can individually get rich. But from what I know about
>economic history and sociology in this country, when GROUPS
>make/made powerful economic moves oftentimes there is/was a
>CLEARLY DEFINED racial and/or cultural link.

- you saw this in the black community during the early 20th century. Im not gonna insult your intelligence by giving you a history lesson, u know what im talking about.

>You see it with
>Italians, Jews, Asians, and most recently, I am seeing it with
>people of Arab/Middle Eastern descent. My boss has a "crew"
>that he rolls with---all Koreans, all rich. They meet every
>Thursday afternoon, and while they have all made their
>individual fortunes, they make BIG MOVES together...

- well do you see those FUBU cats doing this? do you see bob johnson doing this? oprah? russell simmons? why are you riding black conservatives so hard on this...and besides, dont you think the problems africans are facing over there are more important than trying to financially "build" with them right now?

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
10706 posts
Wed Mar-23-05 12:55 PM

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52. "RE: W O W"
In response to Reply # 23


  

          


>- well first of all I would ask you do you personally know any
>black people that identify themselves as "black conservative."
>then I would ask you if you have ever been in their homes and
>TALKED with them one on one. if you did, you might be suprised
>at how knowledgeable about their history, at what books are on
>their shelves etc.,...this idea that all black conservatives
>care about is money and white people is a myth. seperate
>yourself from that...
Yeah man, I live in DALLAS, TEXAS!!! There are Black Conservatives/Republicans all over this city and state, and what I'm noticing is that many of them are YOUNG. In fact my father's business partner, who is right at 50, and his 22 year-old son who goes to SMU are Black Republicans...they are both real cool. They tell me all the time that I am Republican too, I "just don't realize it." They say this because I always say that I hated to see Black folks act like Clinton was the 2nd coming of Christ...because I am against gay marriage...because I am big on the importance of family...because am anti-abortion...because I think Jesse and Al are media whores...because I have a copy of Rush Limbaugh's "The Way Things Ought To Be"...because I say that Larry Elder was/is on point because he agrees WITH ME that one of the biggest, if not the biggest problem facing Black people in America is illegitimacy...etc. I have to tell them all the time "Republicans/Conservatives don't have a monopoly on morality or the belief that that strong families make strong communities, and strong communities is essential to nation building...those are TRADITIONAL AFRICAN VALUES that we as Black people have gotten away from. These are the VERY THINGS that Malcolm X, John Henrik Clarke, Amos Wilson, Mwalimu Baruti, Marimba Ani and others have BEEN PREACHING..." They say "Awwwww ni__a, here you go with this 'back to Africa sh_t' again, we ain't got time for that sh_t...you ain't NO AFRICAN, you was born IN MISSISSIPPI!!!"(LOL) Seriously though, what REALLY shocks me is that when I bring up Shelby Steele, Thomas Sowell, or C. Mason Weaver(who wrote "It's Okay to Leave the Plantation: The New Underground Railroad"...a book that I agreed with MUCH of) they STILL look blank-faced like I'm speaking Greek...


>secondly, it just sounds like your
>manager is a DEEP individual. he has a PERSONAL interest in
>his culture and his language...now, the average black person
>out here regardless of their political beliefs or
>intelligence/education level doesnt know or CARE about where
>they are from, the language they use to speak or their african
>history...why are you riding black conservatives so hard? do
>you hold us to a higher standard than every other black
>person?
Yeah, Mr. Kim is MAD DEEP. (btw, he isn't my "manager"...he is the owner of a multi-million dollar corporation) The thing about it is he will tell you point blank that the success of Asian people as a collective is BECAUSE they love their culture, BECAUSE they want to honor the struggles of their ancestors. Correct me if I'm wrong, but not only do Black Conservatives not really show an interest in Afrocentricity, THEY DIS IT either overtly or subtly...and I certainly don't hold Black Conservatives to a "higher standard",(despite the fact that I view some of them as pretty sharp) why would I think a IDIOTS like Jesse Lee Peterson or Ken Hamblin is a grade above ANYBODY? They are 10 times worse than Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton...

>- you saw this in the black community during the early 20th
>century. Im not gonna insult your intelligence by giving you a
>history lesson, u know what im talking about.
Word up...

>- well do you see those FUBU cats doing this? do you see bob
>johnson doing this? oprah? russell simmons? why are you riding
>black conservatives so hard on this...and besides, dont you
>think the problems africans are facing over there are more
>important than trying to financially "build" with them right
>now?
Those FUBU cats don't even own FUBU, they sold it to a consortium of Japanese businessmen years ago. Oprah has spent a TON of $$$ on schools in Africa, Russell Simmons is actively involved in the community, and I'm pretty sure Bob Johnson is too...but I don't see them creating any "synergy" that would allow Black people to make power moves COLLECTIVELY. And this is the point of the whole post and Mr. Kim's "lecture". By the way, in my humble opinion, the problems continental Africans are facing and the problems we are facing in the diaspora are symptoms of the same "infection"...but that is a whole 'nother plate of potatoes...

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Wed Mar-23-05 01:31 PM

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56. "whoaaa...slow down."
In response to Reply # 52


          

>Yeah, Mr. Kim is MAD DEEP. (btw, he isn't my "manager"...he
>is the owner of a multi-million dollar corporation) The thing
>about it is he will tell you point blank that the success of
>Asian people as a collective is BECAUSE they love their
>culture, BECAUSE they want to honor the struggles of their
>ancestors. Correct me if I'm wrong, but not only do Black
>Conservatives not really show an interest in Afrocentricity,
>THEY DIS IT either overtly or subtly...

- pump your brakes man. you jumped from your boss living his culture and his history, then you said "afrocentricity". most black conservatives argue (and i agree) that the bulk of their political/social beliefs come from our great grandparents (blacks who paved the way for us now)...you already know that black folks in america up until the 60's took pride in the family, the church, education, moral values, and had a very strong work ethic. yes, we are descendents from africa, that is where our ancestory lays. but no matter how hard you close your eyes and struggle and fight to get there, our asses are here in america. and we DO HAVE a legacy and history here in AMERICA and appreciating that does not mean you hate your blackness or hate the fact that you are from africa. and if that makes you a "sellout" or "hate yourself" then i'd argue that most black people are sellouts then because your average black person does NOT embrace afrocentrism.

the reason why I asked you if u knew any black conservatives is because my ex's father is as black and republican as it gets. yet when u walk into their house there was no question that a BLACK FAMILY lived there. there were african paintings and statues in the living room. a huge map of africa down in the basement. this is why I say get the "black republican=hates blackness" out of your mind.

>and I certainly don't
>hold Black Conservtives to a "higher standard",(despite the
>fact that I view some of them as pretty sharp) why would I
>think a IDIOTS like Jesse Lee Peterson or Ken Hamblin is a
>grade above ANYBODY? They are 10 times worse than Jesse
>Jackson or Al Sharpton...

- well that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. what im saying is that black folks ON AVERAGE dont embrace the things that you are wanting black conservatives to embrace.


>Those FUBU cats don't even own FUBU, they sold it to a
>consortium of Japanese businessmen years ago. Oprah has spent
>a TON of $$$ on schools in Africa, Russell Simmons is actively
>involved in the community, and I'm pretty sure Bob Johnson is
>too...but I don't see them creating any "synergy" that would
>allow Black people to make power moves COLLECTIVELY. And this
>is the point of the whole post and Mr. Kim's "lecture". By
>the way, in my humble opinion, the problems continental
>Africans are facing and the problems we are facing in the
>diaspora are symptoms of the same "infection"...but that is a
>whole 'nother plate of potatoes...

- well one thing I can say about your boss in regards to his love for his people and his desire to network and build, is that he isn't wearing this as a badge of honor. I doubt your boss is going around bragging on what he is doing to everybody he runs into. when black folks do stuff like this we tend to want the world to know what we are doing and we tend to want Kudos from everybody as well...I would argue that there are black conservatives who are like this (and again, u cant network with the "un-networkable" like i said in my response below) like my ex's father. no he didnt go around shouting down at white people, he wasn't doing a tu-tu dance in a daishiki every morning, he isn't wearing red black and green everyday but in his heart and mind, his culture and love for his race was there. and in actuality, running around shouting "IM BLACK AND DONT FORGET IT!! IM GONNA BUILD WITH BLACK BLACK BLACK BLACK", actually HURTS negroes out here. there is a time and place for everything. if we are gonna network and build, lets do it without fireworks and drawing attention to ourselves all the time...

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
10706 posts
Wed Mar-23-05 02:32 PM

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58. "I am right there with you on this:"
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

>most
>black conservatives argue (and i agree) that the bulk of their
>political/social beliefs come from our great grandparents
>(blacks who paved the way for us now)...you already know that
>black folks in america up until the 60's took pride in the
>family, the church, education, moral values, and had a very
>strong work ethic.
I agree with you 1,000%

>yes, we are descendents from africa, that
>is where our ancestory lays. but no matter how hard you close
>your eyes and struggle and fight to get there, our asses are
>here in america. and we DO HAVE a legacy and history here in
>AMERICA and appreciating that does not mean you hate your
>blackness or hate the fact that you are from africa.
This is on point too...but you must admit that a lot of people ar on some SERIOUS "I ain't no African" type stuff...as a matter of fact your boy Jesse Lee Peterson when Cosby's "ranting" was the topic of the day said that he doesn't consider himself "African" OR "African-American", he is just an "American".

>and if
>that makes you a "sellout" or "hate yourself" then i'd argue
>that most black people are sellouts then because your average
>black person does NOT embrace afrocentrism.
Believe it or not, INTERESTING TOPIC FOR CRITICAL THOUGHT.

>the reason why I asked you if u knew any black conservatives
>is because my ex's father is as black and republican as it
>gets. yet when u walk into their house there was no question
>that a BLACK FAMILY lived there. there were african paintings
>and statues in the living room. a huge map of africa down in
>the basement. this is why I say get the "black
>republican=hates blackness" out of your mind.
Whoever this brother is, I wish he would be so gracious as to allow EVERY BLACK FAMILY IN THIS COUNTRY into his house to see his mode of decor. We need FAMILY-ORIENTED brothers like him who have embraced their African heritage. I would love to talk to the brother.

>- well one thing I can say about your boss in regards to his
>love for his people and his desire to network and build, is
>that he isn't wearing this as a badge of honor. I doubt your
>boss is going around bragging on what he is doing to everybody
>he runs into.
Depends on who he's talking too...and yeah he does view it as a "badge of honor"...

>when black folks do stuff like this we tend to
>want the world to know what we are doing and we tend to want
>Kudos from everybody as well...I would argue that there are
>black conservatives who are like this (and again, u cant
>network with the "un-networkable" like i said in my response
>below) like my ex's father. no he didnt go around shouting
>down at white people, he wasn't doing a tu-tu dance in a
>daishiki every morning, he isn't wearing red black and green
>everyday but in his heart and mind, his culture and love for
>his race was there.
These comments have some merit...

>and in actuality, running around shouting
>"IM BLACK AND DONT FORGET IT!! IM GONNA BUILD WITH BLACK BLACK
>BLACK BLACK", actually HURTS negroes out here. there is a time
>and place for everything. if we are gonna network and build,
>lets do it without fireworks and drawing attention to
>ourselves all the time...
I'm a little torn here...we shouldn't HAVE TO shout about the moves we make, but then again drawing attention to it when we do great things SHOULD BE trumpeted because it doesn't happen nearly enough...

PEACE

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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Bdiddy04
Member since Oct 28th 2004
1591 posts
Tue Mar-22-05 06:06 PM

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15. "What's up with black People?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Are we just stupid? What is so hard about going school, not committing crimes, practicing abstinence or at least safe sex, and being courteous to each other. Basically doing the right thing. When did reading become acting white? Niggas act like books are the plague. The problem facing blacks is far more than simple collective work.

_______________________________________
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FireBrand
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Tue Mar-22-05 06:11 PM

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16. "huh?"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          


******************************
www.okayplayer.com/guidelines
_____________________________
Inaug'ral Member of the OkaySports Hall of Fame.

DUNNT

  

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Bdiddy04
Member since Oct 28th 2004
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Tue Mar-22-05 06:19 PM

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17. "RE: huh?"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

I'm saying how you gonna talk blacks working together when most niggas on the block don't give a fuck about that. The mentality of young black people is not working for the good of the community. It's about getting paid no matter what the cost is.

_______________________________________
Follow me @bstokessmooth

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
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Tue Mar-22-05 06:31 PM

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18. "Uhhhh..."
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

>I'm saying how you gonna talk blacks working together when
>most niggas on the block don't give a fuck about that.

"n****s on the block" aren't the only Black people that exist.

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Tue Mar-22-05 06:52 PM

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20. "yall trippin'"
In response to Reply # 18
Tue Mar-22-05 07:09 PM by suave_bro

          

both of you know exactly what that man is talking about. the reason why asians and whoever can network is because they got some fuckin' sense.

asians are not running around degrading their women and gunning each other down in the streets. asians ALSO respect the importance of an education and being intelligent (and no, i dont mean intellectual, i mean INTELLIGENT). and no, every black person aint "on the block", but that mentallity? RAMPANT. you cant build and develop shit with the black folks in our community in 2005. that statement might shock you but YOU ALL are living proof! your entire agenda's are "afrikan upliftment" yet you all havent uplifted SHIT since the 70's!! and its not because you all are lackey's and dont know what you're doing, its because black folks are too busy clubbin', drankin', gettin' krunk, gettin' high...there is NO WAY you can talk about "building" and positivity without addressing these things and "black culture". yeah, its ugly and nobody likes to talk about it in the open but its unavoidable if you are gonna SERIOUSLY "build."

  

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DarkStar
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20015 posts
Tue Mar-22-05 07:39 PM

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27. "Who's got the guts to answer this man's question?"
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

-

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
6567 posts
Wed Mar-23-05 01:26 AM

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43. "Uhm where is the question? Who needs guts on msg board?"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          


******************************
http://profiles.myspace.com/users/1281849
******************************
"me as a black man will not
stand here and allow you to
talk dumb shit about white
women that simply is not true"
SouthPhillyMan

"If I see

  

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FireBrand
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Tue Mar-22-05 08:20 PM

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29. "Damn. So I guess them asian gangs runnin amok"
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

In Gwinnett County is just networkin. Shit...well lemme take my black ass on over there and get some learnin. This whole time I thought them flashin glocks and slappin women was thuggery, but I guess only Black folk got a patent on that.

What the eff was I thinking? Thanks suave. You smoove as hell with that knowledge playboi. That why they call you suave? Dawg, you is gifted.

Changed my life.


******************************
www.okayplayer.com/guidelines
_____________________________
Inaug'ral Member of the OkaySports Hall of Fame.

DUNNT

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Tue Mar-22-05 08:28 PM

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30. "first that weak ass inbox u sent"
In response to Reply # 29


          

with that dumbass argument that you KNEW was too stupid to put on here, dont worry i wont put you on blast (not tryen 2 get deleted) now THIS weak ass argument?

you mean to tell me you pull a group of people that nobody has ever even heard of and compare that to our entire culture? are asian kids looking up to this "group?"...is the asian community running around making excuses for this "group?" "oh they had rough lives, they didnt have mothers, society bred them to be that way!"...does the asian community embrace this groups thuggery?...cmon now, you need to do some serious editing or you need to just come with a stronger argument.

  

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FireBrand
Charter member
145739 posts
Tue Mar-22-05 08:44 PM

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31. "Damn...I forgot there is a character limit."
In response to Reply # 30
Tue Mar-22-05 08:55 PM by FireBrand

  

          

The comment didn't save, but I had it in my profile. Basically I sent Sauve a list of Christian Atrocities world wide because he keeps attacking Islam, and IMO every relgion has it's idiots: North Eastern India terrorist killing Hindus and Muslims, The Rwanda Incident,Ireland, And Abortion clinics here in the US (The Eric Rudolphs of the world, etc)

As usual, Suave didn't break down the first three examples, and chose to tackle the abortion jawn. He didn't read what I said, so he asked if I was comparing abortion to women being victimized in Islam and being sentenced to death. Well, I said that wasn't my point and that IMO abortion itself is STILL worse in comparison to his feelings of women being "victimized in Islam" whatever that means IMO- even tho I was refering to the murders,and bombings he neglected to read, and didn't look at the link I gave him.

And that was the crux of it. He said I was crazy for making that statement, but that is neither here nor there.

I put it in my profile thinking that folk would be able to see my views on the subject and that I could refer to it, but I forgot about the character limit.

So there it is...BACK to the argument at hand;


"you mean to tell me you pull a group of people that nobody has
>ever even heard of and compare that to our entire culture? are
>asian kids looking up to this "group?"" (c) Suave_bro

Let's play a game, lets flip these references to what you say about black kids earlier...


"both of you know exactly what that man is talking about. the reason why asians and whoever can network is because they got some fuckin' sense...you cant build and develop shit with the black folks in our community in 2005. that statement might shock you but YOU ALL are living proof! your entire agenda's are "afrikan upliftment" yet you all havent uplifted SHIT since the 70's!!" (c) Suave_bro

Is THIS all of us here on activist? You gonna take a group of activist and just apply it to our board?

LOL, I'm a fiscal/moral conservative Jamaican-American Muslim Southern Good ole boy. I doubt there was ONE person like me in the ENTIRE movement in the '70's.


"its because black folks are too busy clubbin', drankin', gettin' krunk, gettin' high...there is NO WAY you can talk about "building" and positivity without addressing these things and "black culture"." (c) Suave_bro

Again, you gonna take one group of people and apply it to an entire culture? Wow Suave.

Just wow.


============================================



...is the asian
>community running around making excuses for this "group?" "oh
>they had rough lives, they didnt have mothers, society bred
>them to be that way!"...does the asian community embrace this
>groups thuggery?...cmon now, you need to do some serious
>editing or you need to just come with a stronger argument.


******************************
www.okayplayer.com/guidelines
_____________________________
Inaug'ral Member of the OkaySports Hall of Fame.

DUNNT

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Tue Mar-22-05 09:05 PM

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32. "*sigh*..."
In response to Reply # 31
Tue Mar-22-05 09:08 PM by suave_bro

          

>The comment didn't save, but I had it in my profile.
>Basically I sent Sauve a list of Christian Atrocities world
>wide because he keeps attacking Islam, and IMO every relgion
>has it's idiots: North Eastern India terrorist killing Hindus
>and Muslims, The Rwanda Incident,Ireland, And Abortion clinics
>here in the US (The Eric Rudolphs of the world, etc)

- the argument was about whether or not christianity condones and encourages these behaviors. nowhere in the bible does it say kill or "severely punish" those who do not worship as us, it doesn't say anywhere to oppress women either. and it doesn't condone/or promote abortion at all...and saying that shedding light on the plight of muslim women and bringing Ayaan Hirsi Ali's story to the boards is not attacking islam. and for you to suggest that it says alot about YOU...

>As usual, Suave didn't break down the first three examples,
>and chose to tackle the abortion jawn. He didn't read what
>I said, so he asked if I was comparing abortion to women being
>victimized in Islam and being sentenced to death. Well, I
>said that wasn't my point and that IMO abortion itself is
>worse in comparison to his feelings of women being "victimized
>in Islam" whatever that means.

- LOL. again, the question was asked (not by myself) in that post whether or not ISLAM condoned this mentallity towards its females IN ITS DOCTRINE, and there was no response, hell, you arent even addressing it now!! very telling.

>And that was the crux of it. He said I was crazy for making
>that statement, but that is neither here nor there.

- you are comparing abortion (WHICH IS A WOMANS CHOICE TO HAVE AN ABORTION OR NOT) to some whacko saying that women should be hung for leading prayers in islam. NO MUSLIM ON THESE BOARDS HAS ADDRESSED THAT DIRECT QUESTION YET!!! but what you HAVE done is point the finger @ christianity....seems to me that you KNOW these things are wrong to do to women, but instead of saying that, you say "look at christianity!!"...well when you do that you basically answer the question of whether or not you think these women indeed are oppressed. thanks.


>" you cant build and develop shit with the black folks in our
>community in 2005. that statement might shock you but YOU ALL
>are living proof! your entire agenda's are "afrikan
>upliftment" yet you all havent uplifted SHIT since the
>70's!!"
>
>Is THIS all of us here on activist? You gonna take a group of
>activist and just apply it to our board?

- hold up. are you telling me that you are NOT for the upliftment of black people?


>LOL, I'm a fiscal/moral conservative Jamaican-American Muslim
>Southern Good ole boy. I doubt there was ONE person like me
>in the ENTIRE movement in the '70's.

- uhmmm...are you arguing that you arent for the upliftment of black people in america?



> "its because black folks are too busy clubbin', drankin',
>gettin' krunk, gettin' high...there is NO WAY you can talk
>about "building" and positivity without addressing these
>things and "black culture"."
>
>Again, you gonna take one group of people and apply it to an
>entire culture? Wow Suave.
>
>Just wow.

- you took the words right out of my mouth, wow. lets say the sake of argument that your argument is true...that there is just a very very very very small group of black people who have fatherless homes, have HIV/AIDS, look up to thugs and ball players, can't save/invest their dollars, loathe education and see it as being "white"...if these people dont make up the bulk of our community, then what are black people doing if they arent doing these things? where are they? school me man...show me some statistics where we are thriving in schools, we have strong healthy nuclear families, show me where we are investing our dollars and making wise investments, show me where we are thriving on a national scale. please.

bottom line: you can talk about "building" and "community upliftment" and any other emotionally warm and fuzzy phrase you've heard some scholar say at some point in your life all you want, but without THE PEOPLE it aint about shit. you are just sitting around talking and philosophizing.

  

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FireBrand
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Tue Mar-22-05 09:29 PM

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33. "*scratches head*"
In response to Reply # 32
Tue Mar-22-05 09:33 PM by FireBrand

  

          

>>The comment didn't save, but I had it in my profile.
>>Basically I sent Sauve a list of Christian Atrocities world
>>wide because he keeps attacking Islam, and IMO every relgion
>>has it's idiots: North Eastern India terrorist killing
>Hindus
>>and Muslims, The Rwanda Incident,Ireland, And Abortion
>clinics
>>here in the US (The Eric Rudolphs of the world, etc)
>
>- the argument was about whether or not christianity condones
>and encourages these behaviors.

This is the url of what started the inbox. You are a liar:http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=141498

No it wasn't. We weren't having an argument. I just noticed you saying shit, and I said that there are Christians doing the same thing. It's in the "Post like an activist on Religion" post in GD if you don't remember. Check it out. My argument with YOU, not with anyone else was that Islam doesn't encourage misogny, and in fact supports women- that it was cultural norms in practice and not Islam in question here.

nowhere in the bible does it
>say kill or "severely punish" those who do not worship as us,
>it doesn't say anywhere to oppress women either.


You don't know anything about Islam at all do you? I would not attack the Bible because we believe in the Bible as well. We believe in all the same prophets, and we even believe that Jesus is the Messiah. You are baiting me into finding fault with the Bible. I'm not getting into that.

and it
>doesn't condone/or promote abortion at all...and saying that
>shedding light on the plight of muslim women and bringing
>Ayaan Hirsi Ali's story to the boards is not attacking islam.
>and for you to suggest that it says alot about YOU...


Does it? I'm not in a position to debate Qu'ran and Sunnah with you. I'm not a scholar in that regard. I could however debate Bible with you, and since we Muslims use the Bible as a guide, we can do that. But I'm not gonna sully the Bible here.

>>As usual, Suave didn't break down the first three examples,
>>and chose to tackle the abortion jawn. He didn't read
>what
>>I said, so he asked if I was comparing abortion to women
>being
>>victimized in Islam and being sentenced to death. Well, I
>>said that wasn't my point and that IMO abortion itself is
>>worse in comparison to his feelings of women being
>"victimized
>>in Islam" whatever that means.
>
>- LOL. again, the question was asked (not by myself) in that
>post whether or not ISLAM condoned this mentallity towards its
>females IN ITS DOCTRINE, and there was no response, hell, you
>arent even addressing it now!! very telling.

WHAT are you talking about? My inbox was in repsonse to the post in GD. Are you LYING on me? You are talking about the Bible, and you are LYING? Why would you lie? What made this argument so important that you had to LIE?

>
>>And that was the crux of it. He said I was crazy for making
>>that statement, but that is neither here nor there.
>
>- you are comparing abortion (WHICH IS A WOMANS CHOICE TO HAVE
>AN ABORTION OR NOT) to some whacko saying that women should be
>hung for leading prayers in islam.


NO MUSLIM ON THESE BOARDS
>HAS ADDRESSED THAT DIRECT QUESTION YET!!!

And they won't. But you never asked why.

but what you HAVE
>done is point the finger @ christianity....seems to me that
>you KNOW these things are wrong to do to women, but instead of
>saying that, you say "look at christianity!!"...well when you
>do that you basically answer the question of whether or not
>you think these women indeed are oppressed. thanks.

I would NEVER attack Christianity. I would only attack the actions of those practicing it. My entire family is comprised of Christians. I am marrying a Christian woman next month, why would I do that when I could easily marry a muslimah if I didn't respect her religion and her ability to raise our children? Come on now. You've mastered this victim thing. stop that.


>
>
>>" you cant build and develop shit with the black folks in
>our
>>community in 2005. that statement might shock you but YOU
>ALL
>>are living proof! your entire agenda's are "afrikan
>>upliftment" yet you all havent uplifted SHIT since the
>>70's!!"
>>
>>Is THIS all of us here on activist? You gonna take a group
>of
>>activist and just apply it to our board?
>
>- hold up. are you telling me that you are NOT for the
>upliftment of black people?

Being for the upliftment of black people does not in any way equate with the Black power movement of the 70's. Please compare apples with apples.

>
>>LOL, I'm a fiscal/moral conservative Jamaican-American
>Muslim
>>Southern Good ole boy. I doubt there was ONE person like me
>>in the ENTIRE movement in the '70's.
>
>- uhmmm...are you arguing that you arent for the upliftment of
>black people in america?

No, I'm arguing that my approach is different. VERY different.
>
>
>
>> "its because black folks are too busy clubbin', drankin',
>>gettin' krunk, gettin' high...there is NO WAY you can talk
>>about "building" and positivity without addressing these
>>things and "black culture"."
>>
>>Again, you gonna take one group of people and apply it to an
>>entire culture? Wow Suave.
>>
>>Just wow.
>
>- you took the words right out of my mouth, wow. lets say the
>sake of argument that your argument is true...that there is
>just a very very very very small group of black people who
>have fatherless homes, have HIV/AIDS, look up to thugs and
>ball players, can't save/invest their dollars, loathe
>education and see it as being "white"...if these people dont
>make up the bulk of our community, then what are black people
>doing if they arent doing these things? where are they? school
>me man...show me some statistics where we are thriving in
>schools, we have strong healthy nuclear families, show me
>where we are investing our dollars and making wise
>investments, show me where we are thriving on a national
>scale. please.
>

HUH? None of that was my argument at ALL. You are doing this for fun aren't you? You can't possibly be serious. You READ what I had to say, and as that is what you extracted from it?


>bottom line: you can talk about "building" and "community
>upliftment" and any other emotionally warm and fuzzy phrase
>you've heard some scholar say at some point in your life all
>you want, but without THE PEOPLE it aint about shit. you are
>just sitting around talking and philosophizing.

Oh. Well, state the obvious.

******************************
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http://profiles.myspace.com/users/3870323
******************************
Inaug'ral Member of the OkaySports Hall of Fame.

DUNNT

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
9433 posts
Tue Mar-22-05 09:46 PM

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35. "*scratches head too*"
In response to Reply # 33


          

>My
>argument with YOU, not with anyone else was that Islam doesn't
>encourage misogny, and in fact supports women- that it was
>cultural norms in practice and not Islam in question here.

- yes. and you also said that women are treated better under islam than any in any other culture. this is when i said u were insane.



>You don't know anything about Islam at all do you?

- why is it that when people who question islam always get this SAME. EXACT. RESPONSE. wtf man...if i dont know islam then teach me...obviously i've been misguided somewhere, show me the way...(now this is when they make comments like "nope! u are too ignorant! u cant be taught!) *yaaaawn*

>I would
>not attack the Bible because we believe in the Bible as well.
>We believe in all the same prophets, and we even believe that
>Jesus is the Messiah. You are baiting me into finding fault
>with the Bible. I'm not getting into that.

- hell, I FIND FAULT WITH THE BIBLE! its too inconsistent and contradicts itself...uhmmm im still here typing. no lightening bolt has struck me down.



>>- LOL. again, the question was asked (not by myself) in that
>>post whether or not ISLAM condoned this mentallity towards
>its
>>females IN ITS DOCTRINE, and there was no response, hell,
>you
>>arent even addressing it now!! very telling.


>WHAT are you talking about? My inbox was in repsonse to the
>post in GD. Are you LYING on me? You are talking about the
>Bible, and you are LYING? Why would you lie? What made this
>argument so important that you had to LIE?

- LMAO!!!! man oh man. if you dont want to address what was talked about in ACTIVIST, which you KNOW that is what im talking about, then man up and say you dont wish to address that comment. if not i wont continue playing this game...im not talking about what was talked about in GD in talking about what was talked about here...


>>- you are comparing abortion (WHICH IS A WOMANS CHOICE TO
>HAVE
>>AN ABORTION OR NOT) to some whacko saying that women should
>be
>>hung for leading prayers in islam.
>
>
> NO MUSLIM ON THESE BOARDS
>>HAS ADDRESSED THAT DIRECT QUESTION YET!!!
>
>And they won't. But you never asked why.

- well here is your chance. why wont muslims address that statement?

>but what you HAVE
>>done is point the finger @ christianity....seems to me that
>>you KNOW these things are wrong to do to women, but instead
>of
>>saying that, you say "look at christianity!!"...well when
>you
>>do that you basically answer the question of whether or not
>>you think these women indeed are oppressed. thanks.
>
>I would NEVER attack Christianity.

- well when you are asked directly about a comment concerning islam and its women and your response is "well christians do it too!!" that is an attack on christianity.

>I would only attack the
>actions of those practicing it. My entire family is comprised
>of Christians. I am marrying a Christian woman next month,
>why would I do that when I could easily marry a muslimah if I
>didn't respect her religion and her ability to raise our
>children? Come on now. You've mastered this victim thing.
>stop that.

- again, you attacked christianity with your retort. you were asked twice (ONCE IN ACTIVST, ONCE IN GD) about that comment concerning women and islam and BOTH TIMES u gave an inbox...and in your inbox u basically just said "christianity oppresses women too!!"



>>- hold up. are you telling me that you are NOT for the
>>upliftment of black people?
>
>Being for the upliftment of black people does not in any way
>equate with the Black power movement of the 70's. Please
>compare apples with apples.

- man. i'm almost staring to get embarrassed for you...my statement was that you all are about community and black upliftment. i merely said that you all haven't uplifted a damn thing since the 70's. but, instead of addressing my comment u want to talk about the 70's...man u are looking quite pathetic right now.


>>- uhmmm...are you arguing that you arent for the upliftment
>of
>>black people in america?
>
>No, I'm arguing that my approach is different. VERY
>different.

- and why hasn't your approach worked?


>>
>>
>>> "its because black folks are too busy clubbin', drankin',
>>>gettin' krunk, gettin' high...there is NO WAY you can talk
>>>about "building" and positivity without addressing these
>>>things and "black culture"."
>>>
>>>Again, you gonna take one group of people and apply it to
>an
>>>entire culture? Wow Suave.
>>>
>>>Just wow.
>>
>>- you took the words right out of my mouth, wow. lets say
>the
>>sake of argument that your argument is true...that there is
>>just a very very very very small group of black people who
>>have fatherless homes, have HIV/AIDS, look up to thugs and
>>ball players, can't save/invest their dollars, loathe
>>education and see it as being "white"...if these people dont
>>make up the bulk of our community, then what are black
>people
>>doing if they arent doing these things? where are they?
>school
>>me man...show me some statistics where we are thriving in
>>schools, we have strong healthy nuclear families, show me
>>where we are investing our dollars and making wise
>>investments, show me where we are thriving on a national
>>scale. please.
>>
>
>HUH? None of that was my argument at ALL.

You are doing this
>for fun aren't you? You can't possibly be serious. You READ
>what I had to say, and as that is what you extracted from it?

- HERE ARE YOUR WORDS: "Again, you gonna take one group of people and apply it to anentire culture? Wow Suave."

what I did was list for you what is NOT black culture (the drugs, aids, pregnancy etc), so why cant/wont you list what indeed IS BLACK CULTURE IN 2005!?!? can you do that? if those things i listed above arent indeed black culture but the way only "one group of people" in our community behave, then explain what the NORM for black folks are in america?


>>bottom line: you can talk about "building" and "community
>>upliftment" and any other emotionally warm and fuzzy phrase
>>you've heard some scholar say at some point in your life all
>>you want, but without THE PEOPLE it aint about shit. you are
>>just sitting around talking and philosophizing.
>
>Oh. Well, state the obvious.

- then why haven't YOU and those who think like YOU and "build" with you been able to connect with your own people?

  

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FireBrand
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36. "you indeed are incredible."
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

I don't know if you purposely make debates with you impossible or not, but dammit. I quit. I just don't have the energy to reexplain every point in a way that you can't change the subject, adjust my statements slightly so it's a different meaning or just outright lie.

You're like a human filibuster.

Fuck it.
> NO MUSLIM ON THESE BOARDS
>>HAS ADDRESSED THAT DIRECT QUESTION YET!!!
>
>And they won't. But you never asked why.

- well here is your chance. why wont muslims address that statement?

Noone will address your questions because of the way you ask and debate. Most muslims that aren't Theological scholars will quote Qu'ran, Bible, Torah or Sunnah.

The abbrassive way you tend to approach something we hold as holy will not allow anyone to debate you directly on Islam. As I have YET to do, but you still somehow try to lie and say that I have when I have only mentioned how Islam is NOT responsible for the treatment of the women in these societies in the way that you see it as "mistreatment".

There is a level of respect that would need to be held, and since you haven't proven yourself capable of this you won't get anyone to talk to you about it.

The closest you will prolly get is KID22's responses to Sunggod that u was cosigning on.





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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
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Wed Mar-23-05 12:37 PM

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50. "oh boy."
In response to Reply # 36


          

fine then. I will take you back to that article that was posted by someone in regards to women in islam leading prayers. a man in the article stated that women who lead prayers should be hung. is this the proper mentallity of men of islamic faith? do you agree? if this isn't the "Standard" then what is?

somebody who doesnt know anything about islam will read that and infer that you all are oppressive to your women. if your response to them is "you dont know what you speak on", then here is your chance (AGAIN) to clarify what the mentallity towards women in islam is.

so far there has been 0 response to the film SUBMISSION by muslims on here, there has been 0 response to the claims and the life of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and after (now the 4th) direct questions about that mans quote in that article, there has been 0 response. if it goes against your religious beliefs to speak on these things then why dont you just say so?

  

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FireBrand
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51. "red herring."
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

This discussion is about the inbox generated from the GD exchange. You called out the inbox I sent you, it was sent after the GD discussion. This is documented. Don't try to change the subject.

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
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Wed Mar-23-05 01:10 PM

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54. "and i asked you THIS QUESTION in GD!!!"
In response to Reply # 51


          

that is when you sent me the inbox. you didnt answer the question in the inbox, and 2 days later, you STILL haven't answered.

  

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Bdiddy04
Member since Oct 28th 2004
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34. "Let Me Rehash"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

I apologize because I did not articualte myself well enough earlier. The niggas on the block was my unarticualte way of reffering to the average black male and the 106 & Park sterotype. How the fantasy of the BET cariacature starts to mirror life and how materialism and selfishness persist within the black community. I was asking how can blacks organize when they have been conditioned to equate happiness with material wealth. Again I apologize for not being clear or articulate in my earlier post. It was a rush job while on my lunchbreak.

_______________________________________
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NYC upt JUX
Member since Dec 19th 2004
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Tue Mar-22-05 07:18 PM

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22. "BLACKS HAVE BEEN CONDITIONED TO BE IGNORANT SINCE SLAVERY"
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Mar-22-05 07:20 PM by NYC upt JUX

  

          

to act as if we are just a non-thinking bunch, by way of our own doing without acknowledging the tricknology these saltines have beat us in the head with, is not a good analysis of black life in the america's. i believe COINTELPRO set us back more than anything else in our history. imagine malcolm,huey, fred hampton, assata shakur, h.rap, angela davis, robert williams and a bunch of others(even the passivist m.l.k.) were still around and able to work without having the gov't sabataging them. also, the 80's destroyed the black and latino ghetto's. starting with the election of regan, then crack and aids. i lived in the midst of that shit as a youngin, growin up in harlem and being in the projects. the hustler/fast money mind set started destroying ghetto youth, and now shit is even more sad. cuz if they aren't into hustling or gangs, their mindset usually isn't much different.

another thing to consider is those same products of the 80's have teenage children now and some of them have children. between the schools, police, and everything else, we have to find anyway to counter the bullshit of the world. we have to also stop acting as if we are different than any other blacks in the world, or even other races, becuz we are all the victims of euro/white imperialism, white people too.

as long as the social order is the same we will always have the same problems in america as black people and as humans in the world.

i've rambled long enuff, 5000 y'all.

www.hiphopmusic.com

"What I don't like is Negro elders finally taking a stand for cultural ethics by way of Caucasian vomit. What this now shows young people is that white guilt is still more powerful than black unity." - Star

  

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rawsouthpaw
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24. "wow he sounds like a very interesting cat"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


----------------------------

www.summerproleague.com/photo
_gallery.htm


''Ang hindi marunong lumingon
sa pinanggalingan, hindi
makakarating sa
pinaroroonan.'' Those who
cannot see where they came
from will never get to where
they are

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
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57. "He is VERY INTERESTING...On my 2nd interview,"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

he took me to dinner at 7:00, and we didn't leave the restaurant until almost 10:00. We talked about nothing but history and sociology for 3 hours...he has degrees in both subjects, plus one in business.

He told me that I was the only "American" he ever met that could speak extensively about Korean mythology...the history of the Genghis Khan and the Mongol Empire...why Mao Tse Tung was the perfect man to lead a revolution, but why he was the WRONG person to run a country, and how he was somewhat disillusioned when Stalin (who he considered somewhat of a hero) snubbed him when he met him in 1949..."The Art of War" by Sun Tsu. (Which he told me to read again once I started working...)

He told me that he hated the way the "super powers" carved up Asia, particularly his natve Korea...and he also told me that if Shaka Zulu had killed every European man woman and child as soon as heard they were in southern Africa instead of sending a "diplomatic delegation", there would never have been a such thing as Apartheid--that blew me away that he said THAT.

At the end of this "interview" he said, "By the way, you start next Monday..."

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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SONJEVITY
Member since Nov 07th 2003
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Wed Mar-23-05 06:48 PM

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66. "word up...."
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

dude is interesting foreal.

and congrats

---------------------------------------
"We're not weeell...and we cain't teeell" (c) Badu

http://www.myspace.com/sonjevitysgroove

  

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DarkStar
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Tue Mar-22-05 07:36 PM

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26. " re:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

-Is the lack of cohesivenes among Black people THAT obvious to everyone else, including Asian immigrants?

EMPHATICALLY-yes. You's a n----r ALL OVER THE WORLD, friend.

  

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Nettrice
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Tue Mar-22-05 11:27 PM

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37. "It's easier looking from the outside"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>"that is your main problem."

We have a different path than Asians, Latinos, etc. While there is history of oppression for these groups, there is still a connection to one's tribe (or country), meaning a link to language, religion, etc. Linguist Edward Sapir, language is not only a vehicle for the expression of thoughts, perceptions, sentiments, and values characteristic of a community; it also represents a fundamental expression of social identity. Sapir said: "the mere fact of a common speech serves as a peculiar potent symbol of the social solidarity of those who speak the language." In short, language retention helps maintain feelings of cultural kinship.

Our current language links us to slavery. Our identity is not linked to a specific tribe or country or even a community. Language, of course, is knowledge, and in our world today knowledge is one of the key factors in competitiveness and survival. Literacy, knowledge, and power is what creates the prosperity and growth we tend to take for granted. In an advanced industrial society in an increasingly interdependent world, these things become indispensable. Millions of people across the world, who share common interests, are able to communicate with each other and exchange ideas...because of language. Not only are they able to do this due to the various technological advances, but also because they share a common language.

I repeat: Our current language links us to SLAVERY. More and more of us have not mastered language, we create obstacles to education, to literacy (media, reading, etc.), and to critical thinking. This is why we allow outsiders to discredit or leaders. This is why we allow others to dictate what you think about each other. We also let others kill our leaders (Malcolm, Martin, Medgar) and fear has created a ideological and political vacuum in our communities.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Nettrice
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42. ":-)"
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

>We have a different path than Asians, Latinos, etc.

People aren't trying to hear this though. "YOU PEOPLE don't think about YOURSELVES FIRST..." is a paradox. Why should we care what other think about who we are or how we live our lives?

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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FireBrand
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55. "Interesting perspective."
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

Do you anyone who speaks an African language?

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Nettrice
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60. "Yep"
In response to Reply # 55


  

          

My friend is from Uganda.

"English is the official language of Uganda, even though Luganda (the tribal language of the Baganda people) and Swahili are each spoken by a larger percentage of the population (Ladefoged et al., 25). This sort of scenario is a common a result of the tension between nationalist and nationist concerns, that is, the "conflict between the desire to communicate effectively with all parts of the country, and the need to economize in resources and build national unity" (Ladefoged et al., 18)." - from http://home.columbus.rr.com/sciences/uganda.htm

This sort of proves the point.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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FireBrand
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61. "I'm looking to take an african language course this summer."
In response to Reply # 60


  

          

But it's swahili closest I could get tho. I don't see any other courses that work with my schedule, and I'm not the type that does the "work on your own" thing well.
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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
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Wed Mar-23-05 12:58 AM

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39. "PART II--So I asked him what EXACTLY he meant by"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

not thinking of ourselves first...he said: "You do not have a sense of solidarity, no sense of achieving great things together, no sense of creating a legacy. It seems to me that those who have a nationalistic spirit do not have any real economic power...and those who have money do not care about helping those that do not, either that or they focus to much on assimilation."

I looked around his office at his pictures on the wall...pictures of the day he became an American citizen, him and Daddy Bush, him and Clarence Thomas, him and Colin Powell, him and George W. when he was Governor of Texas...I told him "It looks you are 'assimilating' too." He laughed, and said "Yes, but the difference is I do so on my terms. I am an American CITIZEN, I am Republican, but those things come AFTER what is REALLY IMPORTANT...my FAMILY and my PEOPLE...those are always my priorities."

He then commences to tell me: "You people are too caught up about things that really don't matter." I asked: "For instance?" He says "You people get excited about the best golfer being Black...the young man who played the blind man winning the award(Jamie Foxx)...you get too happy about the first Black this or the first Black that, you have 'this Black' in this political position, you have 'that Black' as an executive in this big company, and you all get fooled into thinking that things are fair and good for you, and far too many of you think it is not necessary to work together as a unit...and as long as you think this way, you will always be on the bottom...why are your people who have done well for themselves not interested in helping others do the same thing? Why are these people not held acoountable for NOT doing so? Every wealthy Asian I know feels a peronal responsibility to help other Asians...I don't think your people understand this thinking at all."

Now I am right at 6 feet tall, but when he said this, I felt like I was 4 foot 2.

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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suave_bro
Member since Nov 19th 2002
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Wed Mar-23-05 01:03 AM

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40. "your boss is a wise man...however..."
In response to Reply # 39


          

he aint really saying anything new or profound. he actually sounds like...well...A REPUBLICAN!

  

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MALACHI
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59. "I though he sounded particularly UN-Republican when"
In response to Reply # 40
Wed Mar-23-05 03:01 PM by MALACHI

  

          

he was talking about not being fooled by the fact that some brothers and sisters have "positions" in government and big business. Matter of fact when I talk to Conservatives, Black and White, that is what they point to and say "LOOK!!! Oprah is a BILLIONAIRE!!! Bob Johnson just bought a basketball team!!! JAY-Z has a private jet!!! Michael Lee-Chin has banks from Canada to Jamaica!!! Look at Clarence, Condi and Colin!!! Racism has gone the way of the dinosaur!!!

You know how they do...and we, like dummies, forsake all the hard work our ancestors started and don't continue to carry the torch, Meanwhile every other ethnic group(who haven't experienced nearly what we have) continues to make sure they roll as A UNIT.

SICKENING.

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
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Wed Mar-23-05 01:12 AM

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41. "JHC calls this the "essential selfishness of survival""
In response to Reply # 39
Wed Mar-23-05 01:20 AM by brokenchains79

  

          

Immigrant groups come here and they rely on each other to survive, they come here with a paradigm to survive... they immigrate with a community. Our situation on the other hand is quite different, even other Black people import their communities here and establish their paradigm for survival. Assimilation & fighting to assert your humaness has been played out since forever, and we're still doing it. Actually what is your boss saying that Booker T. Washington didn't say?

100% correct on the Jamie Foxx thing... not hatin but I was like so what.

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"me as a black man will not
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SouthPhillyMan

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FireBrand
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49. "Agreed. on everything."
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

I remember when we moved from Brooklyn to Roswell, Ga in the Metro ATL area we moved to our subdivison with 3 other Jamaican, and one Guyanese family. There was already a network in place. We knew where to spend money and keep it in our community. We knew where to get our hair cut.

We knew who to get to do our plumbing. This is the sort of thing I would like to see on a larger scale for Pan-Afrikan unity.

If not in America, where? We are the most wealthy, well educated group of Afrikans on the planet.



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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
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64. "Dr. Clarke also said to look at modern day Japan"
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

as a paradigm for Africans in America in the documentary "A Great a Mighty Walk". We need to ask ourselves "what are we doing that we have FORGOTTEN how to do?"

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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FireBrand
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48. "He is so right, and i feel that integration played a big part in"
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

this. Again, I don't believe you can legislate certain things. You kinda just have to make sure that people aren't intimidated or terrorized, but I feel government should not be in the social climate business.

Other cultures might have assimilation, but they were FORCED to work together because each other is all they had. You look at the movements that propelled black causes forward and you can see great minds, and leaders take advantage of an infrastructure in place largely due to segregation: Black colleges, Black Clergy, Black Business.

This is still possible today, but the infrastruture is in shambles. We have to rebuild this first, in my opinion. Internal reparations.


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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
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Wed Mar-23-05 05:31 PM

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63. "PART III---The REAL BOMB DROPPING begins..."
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Mar-23-05 05:43 PM by MALACHI

  

          

He said "You are such a creative, talented people in so many different ways...other races would do anything to possess your talents."

I asked him to be specific, he continued: "Your people have always been the greatest public speakers in the history of this country...Frederick Douglass, Martin Luther King, Jesse Jackson Malcolm X and the man who eventually took his place...what is his name? (He meant Louis Farrakhan) The preacher with the space in his teeth who has the big church here in town...(He meant T. D. Jakes)Forget their individual messages, all of these were and are brilliant, charismatic, people. Whether people agree with what they are saying or not people are drawn to listen. Whenever the famous King speech is played on television ALL PEOPLE stop and listen."

I asked him what his point was. He said "You people have beautiful speaking voices, a natural rhythm when you talk that is easy to listen to as you know...and how often do you people coin phrases that all of society adopts? Do you know how much Fortune 500 companies pay for good MOTIVATIONAL SPEAKERS that people will remember? 10, 15, 20, sometimes $50K for seminars. This is an industry you SHOULD DOMINATE"

He went on..."The most popular singers and musicians in this country have always been Black, with the exception of maybe Elvis(he said it like L-Bis...lol) and the Beatles. Rap music is the most popular music in the world right now...why are you people not running this business? Is it not YOUR MUSIC? Why do you let the Jews and whites take it from you?"

Then he talked about sports, and BLEW. MY. MIND.
"When I watch a sporting event on T.V., almost all of the participants are Black...football...basketball...baseball too, even though many of them consider themselves "Latin". Hockey, the sport with the least Black participants is the LEAST popular...their season has been cancelled, and nobody really even cares. All of this country's most popular, most visible athletes are Black. You people had your own baseball league, but you left it when white people let a few of you go play with them in the 'big leagues' with them. And your athletes were much better than theirs if things are like today. You left a goldmine. The sports industry SHOULD BE CONTROLLED BY YOU. Americans ARE CRAZY for sports, even with the economy bad for the past few years, most sporting events are sold out. You people have the country in the palms of your hands and don't even know it."

I piped up at this point, and said "Well Mr. Kim, there are getting to be more and more Black coaches in pro sports, and Black businessmen are trying to buy sports franch...",

He cut me off with the QUICKNESS and said: "You are far too SMART to give such a STUPID ANSWER. I am shocked at how SHORT-SIGHTED you are being, this is not like you." I sat there with my mouth open.

He continued: "Coaching a team IS NOTHING. Most coaches make less money than the 'star' players they coach...and don't be so DUMB as to confuse owning a team with controlling an industry. If Asians had as many athletes and former athletes as Blacks in professional sports, we would not own 'a team', we would own them ALL---not only that, we would own the stadiums, we would own the restaurants in the stadiums, we would own the companies that maintain the stadiums, we would own the businesses around the stadium, we would own the companies that provide the uniforms and shoes. Look at all of the Black people that wear the team shirts (he meant jerseys) of Black athletes, and white people wear them too. Look at all the people who buy Nike, Adidas, and Reebok shoes because your athletes wear them. Do you profit one dime because of this? Why do you people NOT SEE these things? They are right IN FRONT of your eyes. Why are you BLIND TO THEM??? TAKE CARE OF YOURSELVES... stop worrying about INTEGRATING...you are the only people in this country concerned with such FOOLISHNESS."

I almost passed out.







"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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FireBrand
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65. "u a lie."
In response to Reply # 63


  

          

he aint said that. you had to have made this up. Stop playing.


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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
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Wed Mar-23-05 07:29 PM

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68. "If he is lying..."
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

Does that change the validity of any of it? And if he is lying wouldn't the purpose be to get our attention because we need the opinions of others to validate what we already know and believe. Like Black people will be skeptical if racism still exist if white liberals didn't say it for us.

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"me as a black man will not
stand here and allow you to
talk dumb shit about white
women that simply is not true"
SouthPhillyMan

"If I see

  

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SONJEVITY
Member since Nov 07th 2003
4478 posts
Wed Mar-23-05 07:41 PM

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69. "good points..."
In response to Reply # 68


  

          

I agree 100%

---------------------------------------
"We're not weeell...and we cain't teeell" (c) Badu

http://www.myspace.com/sonjevitysgroove

  

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FireBrand
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70. "Oh, I agree. wholeheartedly. I'm just sayin. He lying."
In response to Reply # 68


  

          

ya'll gonna have to loosen up in here. Just cus we got work to do don't mean we have to be all business.

ole non-laffin arse.

******************************
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http://profiles.myspace.com/users/3870323
******************************
Inaug'ral Member of the OkaySports Hall of Fame.

DUNNT

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
6567 posts
Wed Mar-23-05 11:52 PM

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76. "I haven't laughed since Pac died *mean mug*"
In response to Reply # 70


  

          


******************************
http://profiles.myspace.com/users/1281849
******************************
"me as a black man will not
stand here and allow you to
talk dumb shit about white
women that simply is not true"
SouthPhillyMan

"If I see

  

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Nettrice
Charter member
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Wed Mar-23-05 09:39 PM

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71. "Yep"
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

>he aint said that. you had to have made this up. Stop
>playing.

I caught that by response #42 but it was an interesting discussion.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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FireBrand
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72. "Nah, its actually true it seems, I was just joshin."
In response to Reply # 71


  

          


******************************
www.okayplayer.com/guidelines

http://profiles.myspace.com/users/3870323
******************************
Inaug'ral Member of the OkaySports Hall of Fame.

DUNNT

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
10706 posts
Wed Mar-23-05 10:28 PM

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73. "I wish my imagination was this vivid...and"
In response to Reply # 71
Wed Mar-23-05 10:30 PM by MALACHI

  

          

I wish you guys could meet him...

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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FireBrand
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74. "You need a documentary on the message."
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

Speak to learned people from different communities, and then have a round table on that shit with black leadership(financial, economic, spiritual, political, media) in a town hall meeting.

Then be like: "Well?"

******************************
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http://profiles.myspace.com/users/3870323
******************************
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DUNNT

  

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Nettrice
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75. "My question is"
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

Why should we care what other think about who we are or how we live our lives? One of my best friends in my student activist days was Korean. We often discussed the differences in our cultures and the legacy of slavery. At least, she refused to pass judgment and we both learned some things.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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FireBrand
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77. "I can't lie. I've struggled with this too. I have associates"
In response to Reply # 75


  

          


That are white, and they insist on making comments about black culture. I get mad and say they don't have a right to do so, but maybe they do have a right to their commentary and i was just mad about the condescending tone.

I don't get that tone with his boss. He seems to just be voicing an educated opinion.

******************************
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http://profiles.myspace.com/users/3870323
******************************
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DUNNT

  

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SONJEVITY
Member since Nov 07th 2003
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Wed Mar-23-05 07:02 PM

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67. "*blinks*"
In response to Reply # 63


  

          

your memory of his words is amazing..

not to say you're lying, but man, dude was SAYING SOME SHIT!!!

and you remembered it.

he aint never lied though

---------------------------------------
"We're not weeell...and we cain't teeell" (c) Badu

http://www.myspace.com/sonjevitysgroove

  

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40thStreetBlack
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Thu Mar-24-05 11:42 PM

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84. "he makes some good points, but it's not quite that simple"
In response to Reply # 63


  

          

Asians do the best animation, but they don't run the industry. Alot of American animation gets outsourced to Korea, but American studios still own the rights and make all the money.

So it's really not that simple. But, he still makes some good points nonetheless.

------
"Ladies and gentlemen, what you are seeing is a total disregard for the
things St. Patrick's Day stand for. All this drinking, violence,destruction
of property. Are these the things we think of when we think of the Irish?"

- Kent O'Brockman

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
6567 posts
Thu Mar-24-05 04:43 PM

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78. "This is the question"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

What can black people produce in this country?
That will offer jobs
Produce capital
Not exploits others
& Where do we get the resources.

******************************
http://profiles.myspace.com/users/1281849
******************************
"me as a black man will not
stand here and allow you to
talk dumb shit about white
women that simply is not true"
SouthPhillyMan

"If I see

  

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FireBrand
Charter member
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Thu Mar-24-05 04:50 PM

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79. "I shudder to say the arts."
In response to Reply # 78


  

          

If it's on our terms I don't see why not.
******************************
www.okayplayer.com/guidelines

http://profiles.myspace.com/users/3870323
******************************
Inaug'ral Member of the OkaySports Hall of Fame.

DUNNT

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
6567 posts
Thu Mar-24-05 05:06 PM

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80. "So all we good fo is sangin and jivin."
In response to Reply # 79


  

          

What about trade?

******************************
http://profiles.myspace.com/users/1281849
******************************
"me as a black man will not
stand here and allow you to
talk dumb shit about white
women that simply is not true"
SouthPhillyMan

"If I see

  

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FireBrand
Charter member
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Thu Mar-24-05 05:20 PM

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82. "what sort of trade?"
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

The way i look at it, folk get into something they have proven to be marketable/experienced. Why it gotta be all that? we can define it after OURSELVES and still make money. The folk buyin all that art, culture, etc are looking for the genuine article.

Why not?


******************************
www.okayplayer.com/guidelines

http://profiles.myspace.com/users/3870323
******************************
Inaug'ral Member of the OkaySports Hall of Fame.

DUNNT

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
6567 posts
Thu Mar-24-05 05:28 PM

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83. "It was a joke..."
In response to Reply # 82


  

          

Trade... not sure.

******************************
http://profiles.myspace.com/users/1281849
******************************
"me as a black man will not
stand here and allow you to
talk dumb shit about white
women that simply is not true"
SouthPhillyMan

"If I see

  

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FireBrand
Charter member
145739 posts
Fri Mar-25-05 07:42 AM

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85. "lol. I intially thought it was a joke."
In response to Reply # 83


  

          

yeah...I think we can establish strength there. I'm already seeing Hip hop as a vehicle for our hustle.

******************************
www.okayplayer.com/guidelines

http://profiles.myspace.com/users/3870323
******************************
Inaug'ral Member of the OkaySports Hall of Fame.

DUNNT

  

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sunngodd
Member since Feb 20th 2003
8324 posts
Thu Mar-24-05 05:07 PM

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81. "Powernomics lays out a few suggestions"
In response to Reply # 78


  

          


------------------------------

“He may be friendly, but he's not your friend." - Malcolm X

  

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afrobongo
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Fri Mar-25-05 08:04 AM

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86. "an attempt."
In response to Reply # 0


          

>Isn't it amazing that Black "Conservatives" seem to distance
>from Pan-Africanism /Black Nationalism, but Jewish or Asian
>"Conservatives" EMBRACE their respective ethnicity?

because pan-africanism and black nationalism are very leftist ideologies ?

______________________________

*TWINNING*

  

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Kozmikblak
Member since Sep 10th 2002
1154 posts
Fri Mar-25-05 11:11 AM

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87. "Firebrand..."
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Mar-25-05 11:11 AM by Kozmikblak

  

          

I know this is on your list for posts to archive. Right?

---------------------------
"...you cats are undercover like GAY rappers dealing with MYSTERY." -Talib Kweli This means you, from Reflection Eternal

"I don't blame Tiger Woods, but I overstand the mental poison that's even worse than drugs" -nas poison

  

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FireBrand
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145739 posts
Fri Mar-25-05 11:26 AM

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88. "It might be."
In response to Reply # 87


  

          


******************************
www.okayplayer.com/guidelines

http://profiles.myspace.com/users/3870323
******************************
Inaug'ral Member of the OkaySports Hall of Fame.

DUNNT

  

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