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Subject: "ARE NORTH AFRICANS "BLACK"???" This topic is locked.
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southphillyman
Member since Oct 22nd 2003
90059 posts
Mon Dec-15-03 07:31 PM

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"ARE NORTH AFRICANS "BLACK"???"


  

          

i bring this up , because i know a few and they all respond differently

for the most part they say they are african and leave it at that. like i know a cool cat named yusef from morrocco..
but i also know a beautiful egytian woman who is very light and pretty. i heard her speaking french so i approached her, because my sister speaks french fluently, and she told me she was from egpyt. so i asked her how was africa...

and the first thing she says is : "o i'm from africa but i'm not like those blacks, we different up north"

i was like wtf???...now i know the cultures are different , thousands of miles of sand can do that to u, but why would she have such a bias view toward fellow africans? this is beginning to make me question all the stories i heard about how hannibal and the pharoahs were black men. are these people more arab/spanish/european then african??

~~~~~~

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
Gotta do the reading.
Dec 15th 2003
1
RE: Gotta do the reading.
Dec 16th 2003
14
LOL
Dec 16th 2003
18
RE: Gotta do the reading.
Dec 17th 2003
27
      thanks for sharing this
Dec 24th 2003
63
RE: ARE NORTH AFRICANS "BLACK"???
Dec 15th 2003
2
they arabs (mooslims).
Dec 16th 2003
3
We are not Arabs and being a Muslim means nothing
Dec 17th 2003
28
RE: We are not Arabs and being a Muslim means nothing
Dec 19th 2003
41
      RE: We are not Arabs and being a Muslim means nothing
Dec 19th 2003
42
RE: they arabs (mooslims).
Dec 17th 2003
32
      RE: they arabs (mooslims).
Dec 17th 2003
35
alot are mix of black and Arab...check the kinky hair
Dec 16th 2003
4
RE: alot are mix of black and Arab...check the kinky ha
Dec 17th 2003
26
      umm of course.....
Dec 17th 2003
34
      much like
Dec 22nd 2003
49
I always thought of them as "Black"
Dec 16th 2003
5
ethiopia is SUB saharan...BIG difference
Dec 16th 2003
8
      RE: ethiopia is SUB saharan...BIG difference
Dec 16th 2003
13
      RE: ethiopia is SUB saharan...BIG difference
Dec 17th 2003
29
Honestly...
Dec 16th 2003
6
RE: Honestly...
Dec 16th 2003
7
not skinny enough to be considered black?
Dec 16th 2003
9
RE: not skinny enough to be considered black?
Dec 17th 2003
20
RE: Honestly...
Dec 16th 2003
16
RE: Honestly...
Dec 16th 2003
19
RE: Honestly...
Dec 17th 2003
31
thousands of years and many influences/events separate
Dec 16th 2003
10
Right!
Dec 16th 2003
11
depends on ancestry
Dec 16th 2003
12
RIGHT !!!
Dec 17th 2003
21
In the simplest terms..........
Dec 16th 2003
15
RE: In the simplest terms..........
Dec 17th 2003
33
The black ones are.
Dec 16th 2003
17
good answer....for real.
Dec 20th 2003
45
such an American question
Dec 17th 2003
22
RE: such an American question
Dec 17th 2003
23
Wow
Dec 17th 2003
24
RE: ARE NORTH AFRICANS "BLACK"???
Dec 17th 2003
25
so true
Dec 17th 2003
30
RE: ARE NORTH AFRICANS "BLACK"???
Dec 17th 2003
36
RE: ARE NORTH AFRICANS "BLACK"???
Dec 17th 2003
38
very true
Dec 19th 2003
43
      one egyptian's opinion
Dec 22nd 2003
50
           Not quite there.
Dec 22nd 2003
51
                my point
Dec 23rd 2003
57
                     You have no point, imbecile.
Dec 23rd 2003
60
                     disagree with what?
Dec 24th 2003
64
Are Spaniards and Italians white?
Dec 17th 2003
37
RE: Are Spaniards and Italians white?
Dec 17th 2003
39
RE: Are Spaniards and Italians white?
Dec 25th 2003
66
.
Dec 17th 2003
40
some are, some are not.
Dec 19th 2003
44
RE: ARE NORTH AFRICANS "BLACK"???
Dec 21st 2003
46
how do you know if you have black blood or not?
Dec 21st 2003
47
RE: ARE NORTH AFRICANS
Dec 22nd 2003
48
are u nuts?
Dec 22nd 2003
52
      RE: are u nuts?
Dec 22nd 2003
53
           again, are you nuts?
Dec 23rd 2003
56
I've always read that they were more Mediterranean
Dec 22nd 2003
54
RE: I've always read that they were more Mediterranean
Jan 04th 2004
67
wouldn't they vary like anywhere else?
Dec 23rd 2003
55
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Dec 23rd 2003
58
haha
Dec 24th 2003
62
      lol
Jan 04th 2004
69
north africa is a zone of convergence
Dec 23rd 2003
59
RE: from what i know...
Dec 23rd 2003
61
yes
Dec 24th 2003
65
RE: ARE NORTH AFRICANS "BLACK"???
Jan 04th 2004
68

brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
6567 posts
Mon Dec-15-03 08:17 PM

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1. "Gotta do the reading."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Destruction of Black Civilization by Chancelor Williams is a good primary read.

"Riots eruptin around and still we party on..."

  

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WindConga
Member since May 29th 2003
4506 posts
Tue Dec-16-03 09:39 AM

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14. "RE: Gotta do the reading."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

Co-fuckin'sign.....
Chancellor Williams completely lays it out on the table with that book.

-These catz drink champagne, and toast death & pain, like slaves on the ship talkin' bout who got the flyest chains-
-Talib Kweli

www.myspace.com/chriswynd

  

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Humzaki
Charter member
505 posts
Tue Dec-16-03 10:41 PM

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18. "LOL"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

So is Cat in the Hat

Peace
H

  

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Sopdet
Charter member
741 posts
Wed Dec-17-03 06:05 AM

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27. "RE: Gotta do the reading."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

Chancellor Willams gets much of his information about ancient Kmt wrong. If you know very little about the civlization then you should read this,but be warned that this book is extremely weak on the footnotes and bibliography.

Modern Egyptians are not foregin Arabs,nor are we invaders. We are the desendants of the ancient Egyptians. The people who can claim exclusive right to this are the Sa3eadi,Baladi,and Fellahin in Upper Egypt. We have never mixed with any Arabs. The Arans opressed us and made us virtual slaves in our own homeland.

Much of the elite in Egypt still are foreginers that have ties to the Turkish,French or British. I have no problem in people studying out history but please stop trying to bend us to fit into your political agendas!!!!!!!!

in Box me if you wish to know more about Egyptians and Egypt. I am an authenic Sa3eadi who had every right to claim who my ancestors are!!!!!!

  

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raool
Member since Jul 10th 2002
12355 posts
Wed Dec-24-03 04:18 AM

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63. "thanks for sharing this"
In response to Reply # 27


          

many people have the wrong impressions on modern Egyptians.
I still see faces of ancient Egyptians in the majority of Egyptians today. The elites ( who are mostly Arab) are a differeent story.

  

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coolntheshade
Charter member
161 posts
Mon Dec-15-03 09:41 PM

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2. "RE: ARE NORTH AFRICANS "BLACK"???"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Are blacks black?! Is there really such a thing as race when you really think about it?

I don't think so. "Race" is a fictious term created by man in order to seperate and inferiorize. Peoples many different "cultures" and "languages" stem from the Tower of Babel(story) in Genesis. God confused peoples language to the extent that they could not understand one another's speech (1 ). This forced the people to leave off building their city and tower and to scatter all over the earth (11:8), presumably now with much smaller groups or families whose language was similar enough that they could at least communicate with each other.

Stay Cool

J

Albums in Rotation this Week:
1.) Donnie-The Colored Section
2.) The Roots-Phrenology
3.) Eric Sermon-React
4.) Aaliyah-Greatest Hits and Unreleased
5.) Geto Boyz - Greatest Hits

Albums in Rotation this Week:
1.)
2.)
3.)
4.)
5.)

  

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deejboram
Member since Sep 27th 2002
25755 posts
Tue Dec-16-03 01:31 AM

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3. "they arabs (mooslims)."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

.

****
pink toes: http://i.imgur.com/WN7DPL1

  

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Sopdet
Charter member
741 posts
Wed Dec-17-03 06:08 AM

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28. "We are not Arabs and being a Muslim means nothing"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

Egyptians and Magrebians are not Arabs. If you believe this is true then go to Egypt yourself and see who the Sa3eadi people are. We have never been Arabs and most Islam praticed by the Sa3eadi is not even true Islam,but synchrinized Islam with elements of older relgion put into place. Many Sa3eadi still pratice the relgion of the ancient Egyptians,but from the way media potrays Egyptians you would never know this.


  

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deejboram
Member since Sep 27th 2002
25755 posts
Fri Dec-19-03 02:05 AM

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41. "RE: We are not Arabs and being a Muslim means nothing"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

> Egyptians and Magrebians are not Arabs. If you believe
>this is true then go to Egypt yourself and see who the
>Sa3eadi people are.

How many Sa3eadi people are there?
And is that an actual word because I'm not sure how to pronounce that '3' in the middle of that word.
But look at the percentages.
Wassup wit Khadafi?
Moroccans?
Yeah, I know it was Berbers in Morocco but if you take a poll of N. Africans and ask'em if they was African the majority'd be like "No!" or some/most will "Distinguish themselves as NORTH Africans."
You got your power to the people bunch that will say they African but how many of them are out there?

****
pink toes: http://i.imgur.com/WN7DPL1

  

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Sopdet
Charter member
741 posts
Fri Dec-19-03 04:57 AM

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42. "RE: We are not Arabs and being a Muslim means nothing"
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

The point is that Northern Africans are not Arabs. Yes,Sa3eadi is a word because the 3 is an accent mark used in Arabic language. In modern times Sa3eadi are a minority of the population,but even people in Lower Egypt know that the Sa3eadi are the original Egyptians. Everybody know this,and most Egyptians up to 1956 recented calling themselves Arabs. It was Nasser that finally convinced Egyptians they were Arabs.

You need a good rundown of history in this region of the world. In 640 AD Egypt was invaded by a group of 20,000 Yemani Arabs that only settled in the northern part of Egypt. Later,during the Fatimid Caliph and Mameluke period some Arabs were let loose into the Egyptian population. These two nomadic groups called the Beni Hilal and Beni Sulyiam settled in modern Middle Egypt mostly around Asyut. So there have been no signigicant alteration of the Egyptians except for some pockets in Cairo and the Delta that already existed prior ro the Arabic invasion.

Also,the Arab Muslims made all their converts become Mawali which means they were forced to become customers of Arabs. Virtual slaves that kissed the Arabs ass just to survive. The same course of events happened in Magreb that happened in Northern Africa.
You still have original Saharan populations in Morocco called the Haratin that have been there since the Neolithic period. You also have desendants of African slaves in Morocco called Gnawa who are famous for their trance like music.

Khdafi is a nomadic bedouin from the Beni Hilal tribe. His people were the main ones who destoyed Byzhatine cities and wrecked havoc on Northern Africa. Most Libyans hate Khdafi,and if I was Libyan I would not trust him either.


  

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Defwe
Member since Apr 05th 2003
143 posts
Wed Dec-17-03 06:30 AM

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32. "RE: they arabs (mooslims)."
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

There are christians arabs too. Like in Liban, Palestine, Egypt...

Voilà la réponse

  

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Sopdet
Charter member
741 posts
Wed Dec-17-03 07:28 AM

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35. "RE: they arabs (mooslims)."
In response to Reply # 32


  

          











''There are christians arabs too. Like in Liban, Palestine, Egypt...''

The Christains in Egypt are not Arabs,and neither are the ones in Lebanaon. Ask a Maronite Christain what he is an he will tell you he or she is Phonecian.








  

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Abdurrashid
Member since Jun 20th 2002
15939 posts
Tue Dec-16-03 01:58 AM

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4. "alot are mix of black and Arab...check the kinky hair"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

on most Egyptians....but they all vary in color from dark blue black to tan/white-pale....

*shrugs*


"The camel never sees its own hump but that of its brothers is
always before its eyes"- N.African proverb
My PSA: "Soca muzik a run tings"

Alhamdullah For Everything!

  

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Sopdet
Charter member
741 posts
Wed Dec-17-03 05:59 AM

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26. "RE: alot are mix of black and Arab...check the kinky ha"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

The Sa3eadi have never mixed with Arabs. We distinguish ourselves from Arabs by calling them Shamy. Have you ever talked with a Sa3eadi Egyptian? Most definatley donot consider themselves to be Arabs. Sa3eadi are very proud to be Africans because that is what we are. We still pocess our culture,although the Arabs have attempted to steal it from us.


  

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Abdurrashid
Member since Jun 20th 2002
15939 posts
Wed Dec-17-03 06:47 AM

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34. "umm of course....."
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

>The Sa3eadi have never mixed with Arabs. We distinguish
>ourselves from Arabs by calling them Shamy. Have you ever
>talked with a Sa3eadi Egyptian? Most definatley donot
>consider themselves to be Arabs. Sa3eadi are very proud to
>be Africans because that is what we are. We still pocess our
>culture,although the Arabs have attempted to steal it from
>us.

"The camel never sees its own
hump but that of its brothers is
always before its eyes"- N.African
proverb
My PSA: "Soca muzik a run tings"

Alhamdullah For Everything!

  

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CantCBob
Member since Aug 13th 2002
3417 posts
Mon Dec-22-03 10:54 AM

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49. "much like"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

you have stolen their language

"and this has shit to do with your confrontational online persona and wack view on indefinite incarceration & lack of empathy." okayplayer rawsouthpaw

"John Stockton, not just a great player, but one of the greatest stories of western civilization"--Bill Walton

"and this has shit to do with your confrontational online persona and wack view on indefinite incarceration & lack of empathy." okayplayer rawsouthpaw

"John Stockton, not just a great player, but one of the greatest stories of western civilization"--Bi

  

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theSON
Member since May 19th 2003
230 posts
Tue Dec-16-03 05:38 AM

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5. "I always thought of them as "Black""
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I went to college with some Ethiopian girls (very light).They told me that Ethiopians and Yemenis/Omanis have been intermixing for millenia but they thought of themselves as "Black".

"It shows you there that white folks have a subtlety about them. What do we want? We want our reparations right? We want that mule and 40 acres right? They gave us our mule in Eddie Murphy, a talking mule. They said “here niggas, here's a talking mule, no

  

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deejboram
Member since Sep 27th 2002
25755 posts
Tue Dec-16-03 06:23 AM

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8. "ethiopia is SUB saharan...BIG difference"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

.

****
pink toes: http://i.imgur.com/WN7DPL1

  

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southphillyman
Member since Oct 22nd 2003
90059 posts
Tue Dec-16-03 09:35 AM

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13. "RE: ethiopia is SUB saharan...BIG difference"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

yea but u got black ass people that look like me and u in kenya talking about they arabs.

i watched a special on it, they insist they are persians, lmao
i was like wtf, look in the mirror nigga

~~~~~~

  

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Sopdet
Charter member
741 posts
Wed Dec-17-03 06:12 AM

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29. "RE: ethiopia is SUB saharan...BIG difference"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

Ethiopians have 35% Yemani Arab ancestry that probally comes from the Sabeans that migrated into Eastern Africa across the Red Sea. However this is only true amung the Amharan who are a mixture between Agnew Cushic people and Sabean Yemani. In the past,anthropologist used to classify Africans because of their aquline nose into the classification of caucasoid. This is what was called the Hamitic myth that still persists to this day. Nasal shape is not caused by intermixture,but from the tyope of clime that a person evovles in.


  

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Defwe
Member since Apr 05th 2003
143 posts
Tue Dec-16-03 06:05 AM

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6. "Honestly..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I don't know myself.

My parents come from north africa (Morocco) and I am white. My grandfather from my father side had grey eyes and was very white, my grandfather and my grandmother from my mother side are skinny but not enough to be considered as black. But I have black and skinny cousins.

And I am not arab since my ethnic community (berberians) was the first to be in Morocco (before the arab invasions). But I don't really know what kind of meltings have occured.

During the last two years after some searches I noticed that the berberian dialects in my village had some similarities with the dialects we could find in Egypt, Yemen, Niger, Mali.

The reality about the other regions in Morocco that you cannot find in other countries like Algeria or Tunisia is that Morocco is very diversified : you can find all kind of origins (arabs, berberians, black descendents of slaves, jews, spanishs, portugueses).

I wish I would know one day where I come from...

Voilà la réponse

  

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Defwe
Member since Apr 05th 2003
143 posts
Tue Dec-16-03 06:07 AM

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7. "RE: Honestly..."
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

I forgot to say that I consider myself as an African.

Voilà la réponse

  

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psychoticPANDA
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7650 posts
Tue Dec-16-03 08:11 AM

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9. "not skinny enough to be considered black?"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

by skinny u mean skin is dark, but not enough to be considered blk?

huh?

)))--#####----###-->>>>
a born-again hooligan only to be king again

  

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Defwe
Member since Apr 05th 2003
143 posts
Wed Dec-17-03 12:02 AM

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20. "RE: not skinny enough to be considered black?"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

>by skinny u mean skin is dark, but not enough to be
>considered blk?
>
>huh?


I don't know if there are criterions to define someone as black or whatever. Everything is so mixed in my family that I'm not really able to tell if they look like black, white, arabs or asian people. I've told my uncle if he knew what were its origins and he told me that he didn't knew excepted that his grand-grandmother was a touareg from Sahara (a nomad which had turned sedentary).

Voilà la réponse

  

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qalyiente
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
1590 posts
Tue Dec-16-03 11:51 AM

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16. "RE: Honestly..."
In response to Reply # 6
Tue Dec-16-03 11:52 AM

  

          

you can find all kind of
>origins (arabs, berberians, black descendents of slaves,
>jews, spanishs, portugueses).
>



not all the blacks are descendants of slaves, and not all "pale" muslims in north africa are descendants of free men and women.

i know arabs, especially in egypt and morrocco, like to think and refer to darker skinned people as slaves and such but thats just racist, it has very little to do with historical facts.


Fat people are a joy to me. They give me great meal ideals and have taught me to do fat people things like combining foods that I would have never have thought to combine. <--okp fresh rain4u on fat people and the troubles of fasting.


  

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Defwe
Member since Apr 05th 2003
143 posts
Tue Dec-16-03 11:50 PM

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19. "RE: Honestly..."
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

>you can find all kind of
>>origins (arabs, berberians, black descendents of slaves,
>>jews, spanishs, portugueses).
>>
>
>
>
>not all the blacks are descendants of slaves, and not all
>"pale" muslims in north africa are descendants of free men
>and women.
>
>i know arabs, especially in egypt and morrocco, like to
>think and refer to darker skinned people as slaves and such
>but thats just racist, it has very little to do with
>historical facts.

Yes of course you're right. This is not what I meant I'm not so manicheist there were white slaves too. But in countries like Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia you cannot speak about history and culture without forgetting the weight of slavery.

Voilà la réponse

  

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Sopdet
Charter member
741 posts
Wed Dec-17-03 06:22 AM

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31. "RE: Honestly..."
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

In Morocco there was many groups of Amazigh people that range from Northern European looking like the Riffian to light brown to dark brown like the Chuleh in Souss. You also have the Haratin in Southern Morocco who are the indigenous people from the Sahara. In Morocco and other Magrebian countries all Amazigh are treated like second class citizens.

The truth is that Costal Northern Africans in Northern Algeria,Northern Morocco and Northern Libya were never black in the first place. Most come from proto-Medditerean stock and from Cor-magnoid stock that existed around the costal regions. Look up the Tarofliat culture,Metcha-al-Arabi culture,and Aflou culture. The Sahara region has always been majority black and this is why the Tuareg look the way they doo as well as the Haratin. This is a very complex issue that requires study of Northern African past to fully understand it.

The Amazigh people were called Libyans by both the ancient Greeks and the ancient Egyptians. One group was called Tamahoua by the Egyptians which had blondish reddish hair;the other Amazigh was called the Technoua that had dark brown skin with tightly curled hair. The later seems to be older than the former because the Tamahou was not depicted up untill the 19th dyansty with the invasion of the Sea peoples.

See the following:

Speakers of Amazight go back 7000 years. They are the Imazigen
of Ta Mazgha (Berbers of North Afrika). Amazight is an Afrikan
language of the Afro-Asian group. The Afro-Asiatic linguistic
phylum developed somewhere between the south-eastern Sahara and
the Horn and began splitting at least 8000 years ago.

Branches and probable date of split:
Kushitic - 8th millenium BCE
Egyptian - before the 7th millenium BCE
Omotic - 7th millenium BCE
Hausa - 7th millenium BCE
Semitic - 6th or 5th millenia BCE
Amazigh - 6th or 5th millenia BCE
(I. M. Diakonoff, Afrasian Languages, Moscow 1988)

Herodotus described Libyans as indigenees of Afrika. Egyptian
records list Libyans or Lebou of two types, the Tehenou and the
Temehou (people created light/white skinned). This is simply
recognizing that there was no uniform phenotype in ancient
Tamazgha. It is not saying there was only one phenotype among
the Lebou.

Tehenou and Tamahou were not the same ethnic type. The first
Lebou people that the Egyptians refered to were the Tehenou.
In color paintings they are dark brown. They were the local
blacks of Libya. They were not Nilotics nor Bantu nor Sudanese.
They were a local Libyan ethnic group. (G. Moller, Die Aegypten
und ihre libyschen Nachbaren, ZDMG, Liepzig 1924 pg 78.)

Oric Bates who wrote on the Eastern Libyans records Afrikoid
features. He says that before 12th dynasty Egyptians colored
Tehenou dark brown. The Eastern Libyans, London 1914, pp 43-45.

C. M. Daniels makes a similar report in The Garamantes of
Southern Libya, Wisconsin 1970, pg 27.

Later in time the Tamahou begin to appear in Egyptian paintings.
They are creamy colored often with light hair and eyes. This
is the type that absorbed and replaced the Tehenou.
(W. Holscher, Libyer und Agypter Beitrage zur Ethnologie und
Geschichte Libyscher Volkerschaften, AFU 5, Gluckstadt 1955)

Surely it is an injustice to the resurgance of Amazigh (Berber)
self-determination to deny this aspect of the ethno-history
of Tamazgha by writing the Tehenou out of history or denying
that they were dark and they were the first Libyan Imazighen.

  

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psychoticPANDA
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10. "thousands of years and many influences/events separate"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

pharoahs and hannibal and present day north africans

)))--#####----###-->>>>
a born-again hooligan only to be king again

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
6567 posts
Tue Dec-16-03 08:26 AM

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11. "Right!"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

.

"Riots eruptin around and still we party on..."

  

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Harmonia
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12. "depends on ancestry"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Berbers(and some other native groups) were there before the Arab invasions and consequent Arab empire. Also France brought like 1 million French settlers to Algeria during colonization and I'm not sure on the number for the rest of the North African nations, but I know it was quite a lot. So i guess it all depends on what ethnicity you're talking about. In all honesty race is a bullshit category when it comes to stuff like this because there are so many "grey" areas.

***************************************

www.twitter.com/MsKianga
http://nativebeadwork.blogspot.com/
'I can't stand Tim McCarver. He has a penchant for making blindingly obvious statements in a self-congratulatory tone' Kyle Lohse

  

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Defwe
Member since Apr 05th 2003
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Wed Dec-17-03 12:05 AM

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21. "RIGHT !!!"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

We're not plants or animals to consider ourselves as member of a particular race. I'm the living proof of what you're saying.

Voilà la réponse

  

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WindConga
Member since May 29th 2003
4506 posts
Tue Dec-16-03 10:00 AM

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15. "In the simplest terms.........."
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Dec-16-03 10:19 AM

  

          

Northern Afrika is comprised of many ethnic groups. Of course the indigenous North Afrikans are black but through the course of time Asiatics, Arabs, and Caucasians established "trading posts" on the outskirts of the Northern Afrikan coast. These "traders" would gradually push settlement further into the interior and sometimes their "push" would go unchecked by Afrikans(know that when I say Afrikan, I'm referring to Black). Naturally, trade is a form of interaction and with consistent interaction comes the possibility for bonds to be made and by way of that traders did eventually have sexual relations with Afrikans which would give way to "lighter skinned" Afrikans among the Northern region.

This pattern is signifigant because the same thing happened in Kemet(Egypt). By now everyone should know that the original Kemetics were Black(hence the name Kemet=literal translation -Land of the Blacks-). Kemet always had trade with Asiatics and Arabs so it was strategically advantageous for these outsiders to create trading posts allowing them great poise to advance into the interior, misceganate with the Afrikan population, and rise to prominence. I'll elaborate more later but MOS'DEF CHECK OUT CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS', "DESTRUCTION OF BLACK CIVILIZATION". You'll be surprised..............

-These catz drink champagne, and toast death & pain, like slaves on the ship talkin' bout who got the flyest chains-
-Talib Kweli

www.myspace.com/chriswynd

  

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Sopdet
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Wed Dec-17-03 06:32 AM

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33. "RE: In the simplest terms.........."
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

''Northern Afrika is comprised of many ethnic groups. Of course the indigenous North Afrikans are black but through the course of time Asiatics, Arabs, and Caucasians established "trading posts" on the outskirts of the Northern Afrikan coast''

The Northern African coast has always been caucasoid or Medditerean. Remeber that the term caucasoid does not mean white and can refer to many types of people such as Arabs,Hindus,Berbers,and other types. You are correct that there is a indigenous black elements in both Magreb and Egypt,but this does not mean that lighter types that live in this region are automatically invaders.
The Arab migration into Egypt and Magreb was so little that it is doubtful they left much of a trace. What was larger was the Greco-Roman migration into Northern Africa,but this only effectewd certain areas. In Egypt there was mandates in Alexzandria banning Egyptians from mxing with Greeks in naucratis and Alexzandria. Greco-Romans only established trading cities as far as Middle Egypt,but never ventured into Waset or Thebes. The Thebean Egyptians was much too rebellious that they never settled this region.

By the way,the Egyptians depicted Tamahou Libyans in their artowrk,and also depicted Technou people as being dark brown with tightly curled hair.





  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
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Tue Dec-16-03 12:35 PM

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17. "The black ones are."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

----------------------------------------------------
"O-E"--Inaugural Member, Okaysports Hall of Fame



"I do it the way I want to do it...It doesn't take news cameras or reporters or big events to get involved with the community....to let me know on the inside that I'm doing something good. -Rasheed Wallace

"Whoopdee Damn Doo" -Derrick Coleman.

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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Zorasmoon
Member since Aug 30th 2002
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45. "good answer....for real."
In response to Reply # 17


  

          



<~~~~~~~Go-Go Yubari is gangsta!!!
.
.
~~~~~~OKP SIGS OF THE MONTH~~~~~~~

"i guess i'm lucky to have busted a bagillion times before losing my virginity." © OKP- illadelphgurrl

If you're out there you're vulnerable. People prefer to disappear in life to repress their personality. That's not living. It's dying. I see them all over the place, the walking dead. --Grace Jones



http://www.youtube.com/user/kimmayluv

  

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raool
Member since Jul 10th 2002
12355 posts
Wed Dec-17-03 12:24 AM

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22. "such an American question"
In response to Reply # 0


          

....

  

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ZaMira
Member since Sep 22nd 2003
91 posts
Wed Dec-17-03 12:26 AM

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23. "RE: such an American question"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

...cosign...

Peace & Blessings, ZaMira

Peace & Blessings, ZaMira

  

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Soul1908
Member since Sep 19th 2002
236 posts
Wed Dec-17-03 03:59 AM

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24. "Wow"
In response to Reply # 0


          

did you know there's a picture of some guys dick on your page?

Learn to love the all in all and thus the all in yourself

  

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Sopdet
Charter member
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Wed Dec-17-03 05:56 AM

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25. "RE: ARE NORTH AFRICANS "BLACK"???"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I am from Egypt and most of the Egyptians who say this mostly live in Northern Egypt which is Lower Egypt. Ethnically in Egypt there is a big difference in Upper and Lower Egypt. I feel that most people on this board have never meet a Sa3eadi Egyptian that was dark-brown with tightly curled hair.

Egypt has always been a diverse place with black people in Upper Egypt and lighter Medditerean types in the North. Over time,however,there has been lots of mixing in the cities of Cairo and Alexzandria withg foreginers so you get very diverse phenotypes.

The women's ignorance of history also is relfect and reinforced by the sub-Sahara myth that validates claims of white supremacy. Meaning that some invisible line is drawn in the sand to seperate Northern Africans from so-called black Africa. This is based on no historicakl facts,but because of Europeans wanting to cliam ancient Egypt.

What most people donot realize is that the Sahara both Central and Southern was once fertile with life,floura and Fauana,and herding and agritcultural farming. Pockets of these original Saharan communities exist in Southern Morocco and Algeria that are called Haratin. These people are not sub-Saharan slaves but are people who lived in the Sahara from time immortal.

Black populations still exist in Northern Africa especially in the Sahara. Egypt once you get past the cities of Cairo and Aelxzandria starts to darken from Light brown to Dark brown. Many Egyptians from Luxor to Aswan can easily be called black if they were transported to America.

Here is some pictures of Luxor Egyptians

http://www.kirikou.com/egipto/familia/familia.htm

http://www.sat7.org/photos/photo008.jpg

Pictures of Egyptian children from Southern Egypt


http://www.sat7.org/photos/photo010.jpg

here is another family,but notice that many relatives are both dark and light. You can tell that both Upper and Lower Egyptians have been mxing for a long time

http://www.sat7.org/photos/photo017.jpg

many of these children look like bi-racials

http://www.copts.net/Images/kosheh/p9a.gif

Here is a picture of a Coptic Christain from Egypt. One thing to note about the Coptics is the fact that many have heavy mixed with Greeks,Syrians,and other races of people. This Coptic man is from the border of El Koshneh which is between Middle Egypt and Upper Egypt

http://www.egyptology.com/reeder/egyptart/photo5.html

---Here is an Egyptian from el Kab carrying water jug. El Kab is the sea of the first Pharoahs.


This observation of Upper Egyptians being darker is often made by European travelers themselves. Denon,one of Napoleans crew,even commented on the apperance of the Upper Egypt reamrking that the inhabitants were very African in apperance. The same is true even today that many African Americans that venture into Luxor to Aswan often get mistaken for Egyptians. Even lighter skinned Africans Americans get mistaken for some Cairene Egyptians.

See the following:

Except for his curly black hair, with its hint of African negro
blood, he looked more Arabian than Egyptian; most of the
men in the village were shorter, more heavily built, and had strong
cheekbones, thick noses, and heavy jaws. Among their rugged faces,
Shahhat's stood out as singularly expressive."
The reader might conclude from such a description that Critchfield's
initial attraction to Shahhat was due to the fact that his features
were much less African than those of the majority of Upper Egyptians.
Ironically, that is the attitude of some inhabitants of northern
Egypt, who refuse to acknowledge Upper Egyptians as Arabs, and
consider darker skin to be a negative trait. Such prejudice is the
second challenge which faces Upper Egyptians, in addition to poverty:
racism.
Although I did take issue with the presumably inadvertent racial
implications of Critchfield's observations, Shahhat, an Egyptian is
an entertaining and vivid introduction to the richness and diversity
of rural Egyptian life.
Uzra Zeya is a program coordinator for the American Educational Trust
specializing in Islamic affairs.
Advise and Dissent and Shahhat, an Egyptian are available from the
http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2002/598/li1.htm

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0390/9003045.htm




  

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raool
Member since Jul 10th 2002
12355 posts
Wed Dec-17-03 06:21 AM

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30. "so true"
In response to Reply # 25


          

Egypt is very ethnically diverse with the influx of many immigrants mixing with the native populations.
In my 2 weeks in Egypt, I have seen very various phenotypes from the darkest to the lighest and I was even asked if I was Egyptian myself even though I am ostentibly black.

  

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Taharka
Member since Apr 18th 2003
7769 posts
Wed Dec-17-03 07:33 AM

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36. "RE: ARE NORTH AFRICANS "BLACK"???"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

I noticed when in Egypt the more south you go the more Black folk you see in Cairo you would see black folks on some streets, in Luxor you would see even more but in ASWAN I didn't see many Arabs except for in the hotel.

<--- The lovely Ms Hill when she wasn't thrown off.

LOOK WHOS RAPPIN NOW
http://www.myspace.com/quil215

  

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Sopdet
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Wed Dec-17-03 09:25 AM

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38. "RE: ARE NORTH AFRICANS "BLACK"???"
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

The dark skinned Egyptians in Cairo are called Baladi and usually are rual Egyptians who come in from Upper Egypt. These people usually live in places like Bulaq Abu Ala. Most of the dark skinned Egyptians live in the slum areas.

In Dyanstic times the population in Luxor to Aswan was the majority of the Egyptian population. The population in Egypt going up to the late 1800's was 3 milion. Know the population has skyrocketed to 88 milion with the majority being in the Northern region. Also recent immigrants to Alexzandria and Cairo have also had their effect. Cairo has always had a predominant non-Egyptian population.


  

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chillinCHiEF
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Fri Dec-19-03 05:15 AM

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43. "very true"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

the sub-Sahara myth that validates claims of
>white supremacy. Meaning that some invisible line is drawn
>in the sand to seperate Northern Africans from so-called
>black Africa. This is based on no historicakl facts,but
>because of Europeans wanting to cliam ancient Egypt.

I had an African studies teacher who called this “continental decapitation”. Its very good to see that people in Egypt agree with this.


  

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CantCBob
Member since Aug 13th 2002
3417 posts
Mon Dec-22-03 11:00 AM

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50. "one egyptian's opinion"
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

does not an egyptian consensus make. ya'll all try to act like you're so objective and what not and then here you go running off to the presses just cuz someone in egypt said something you like to hear. hilarious.

"and this has shit to do with your confrontational online persona and wack view on indefinite incarceration & lack of empathy." okayplayer rawsouthpaw

"John Stockton, not just a great player, but one of the greatest stories of western civilization"--Bill Walton

"and this has shit to do with your confrontational online persona and wack view on indefinite incarceration & lack of empathy." okayplayer rawsouthpaw

"John Stockton, not just a great player, but one of the greatest stories of western civilization"--Bi

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52927 posts
Mon Dec-22-03 11:48 AM

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51. "Not quite there."
In response to Reply # 50


  

          


>does not an egyptian consensus make. ya'll all try to act
>like you're so objective and what not and then here you go
>running off to the presses just cuz someone in egypt said
>something you like to hear. hilarious.

No, Einstein, this is a discussion board. This is not the forum to gauge a "consensus." Even if it was, a mythical "consensus" in many cases in unhelpful for an understanding of a region's history, because Egypt in particular, is a place with a fragmented history, to the extent that distortion and myths have had to be sifted through for centuries. Contrary to popular belief, myth is hardly relagated to "afrocentricity" as you all have labelled it.

In the case of American History, there are few "consensus" views we can agree on. Same with WWII. Same with the current Iraq situation. "Consensus" tells us nothing about "correctness." Consensus is simly the understand that the majority of the people in a society ascribe to. If "consensus" were synonymous with "truth" then creationism, for example, would be a fact. Only a minority of people, natural scientists, truly understand evolutionary theory. Their view is by no means "consensus," it is just "correct."

Now to this conversation, the reason why people are intrigued by Sopdet's commentary is that rarely do we interact with a native Egyptian who makes such claims, and defends them as Sopdet does consistently. Her claims, are for the most point, absolutley true. The Sub-Saharan and hamitic myths HAVE ravaged the history of that region. The truth is that the vast majority of modern Egyptians ARE descedents of invaders, not the people indigenous to the land. This is rarely discussed in academia, even in circles around Egyptian ethnic history. I actually want her to write a book on the topic, because the sources she cites, are sound, but fragmented. One of Sopdet's strategies, a good one, is that often cites the work of racists, and points out that underneath the racist grand interpretations, is excellent research, with data that can be used for better purposes.

----------------------------------------------------
"O-E"--Inaugural Member, Okaysports Hall of Fame



"I do it the way I want to do it...It doesn't take news cameras or reporters or big events to get involved with the community....to let me know on the inside that I'm doing something good. -Rasheed Wallace

"Whoopdee Damn Doo" -Derrick Coleman.

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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CantCBob
Member since Aug 13th 2002
3417 posts
Tue Dec-23-03 02:15 PM

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57. "my point"
In response to Reply # 51


  

          

is that everyone gets all ready to start sucking each other's dicks everytime sopdet posts. she is just one egyptian with one opinion. there are countless other egyptians who would disagree. I know its a discussion board, so save the long winded response there kiddo. but discussions should be just that, not instantly proclaimed dogma just cuz we only have one egyptian on here and not another one to refute sopdet. you guys are fucking lemmings. always telling people to be objective and what not, but then once you hear something you like you all start dive bombing off the cliff and act like it couldn't possibly be any other way since someone who is actually in egypt said it. you're pathetic. and your new in your face online persona is bad for ratings. you been working out in the off season or something in hopes that you'll set a new irrelevant post count record or some shit? grow up

"and this has shit to do with your confrontational online persona and wack view on indefinite incarceration & lack of empathy." okayplayer rawsouthpaw

"John Stockton, not just a great player, but one of the greatest stories of western civilization"--Bill Walton

"and this has shit to do with your confrontational online persona and wack view on indefinite incarceration & lack of empathy." okayplayer rawsouthpaw

"John Stockton, not just a great player, but one of the greatest stories of western civilization"--Bi

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52927 posts
Tue Dec-23-03 08:26 PM

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60. "You have no point, imbecile."
In response to Reply # 57


  

          


Been a rough few months, Bob? Talk about "in your face persona," homie, you flew in here on some irrelevant devil's advocacy bullshit, making no point at all. I called you out on it, and here you are bitching and moaning. Fall back, homie. Your points sucked. It isn't the first time, so cheel.

...basically you are upset at people for liking and agreeing with a certain person's viewpoint. You think we should interview every single Egyptian, and find out what their views are on ethnicity before making conclusions of our own. You are incorrect because this is not a post asking "What do Egyptians eat for Dinner." This is a historical debate, where empirical evidence, and not a public survey, serves as the avenue to addressing the issue. . Surveys of what Egyptians think are unhelpful for concluding the ethnic background of the people in the region, being that most of them don't know, similar to how most Americans are ignorant of their ancestory.

Most of your views suck, your data is wrong, and I let you know it. Other people's views don't suck, often their data isn't as bad, so I laud what needs to be lauded, criticize what needs to be criticized, like your shitty devil's advocate posts.

If someone comes in and makes a point, it is absolutely appropriate to laud it, if they so choose, particularly in historical discussions where the sources can easily be analyzed. You don't provide evidence, Sopdet does. This is not a discussion about whether or not Statutory rape should be a crime. Again, its a conversation about ethnicity, which has empirical evidence. Honestly.... I don't care where she is from, she could be from Brooklyn for all I give a damn. I don't care where you are from. Your opinions suck because they suck, not because you are Cant C Bob from wherever you are from.

Just admit, your attempt at devil's advocacy sucks, and we'll move on.

I honestly, don't have beef with you, so fall back.



----------------------------------------------------
"O-E"--Inaugural Member, Okaysports Hall of Fame



"I do it the way I want to do it...It doesn't take news cameras or reporters or big events to get involved with the community....to let me know on the inside that I'm doing something good. -Rasheed Wallace

"Whoopdee Damn Doo" -Derrick Coleman.

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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raool
Member since Jul 10th 2002
12355 posts
Wed Dec-24-03 04:26 AM

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64. "disagree with what?"
In response to Reply # 57


          

she is putting out facts. I am currently in Egypt right now and whatever she says follows what I can see with my own eyes.
You can easily tell the difference between the Egyptians of arabic descent and the majority. One sad thing is that the Egyptians of Arabic descent are the sole representatives of what Egypt is today which is wrong. It's like thinking that only Ashkenaze Jews are real Jews wihtout mentionning the Sephardim.

Afrocentrism should emcompass all of african peoples and not people who only look like West Africans.

  

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Whateva
Member since Jul 07th 2003
4637 posts
Wed Dec-17-03 08:00 AM

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37. "Are Spaniards and Italians white?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Basically, who cares....

***************************************
"Science" and Religion are the two most dangerous weapons of ideology. See holocaust.

Why do "scientists" constantly produce statistics based on "race", a social construct?

  

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southphillyman
Member since Oct 22nd 2003
90059 posts
Wed Dec-17-03 10:54 AM

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39. "RE: Are Spaniards and Italians white?"
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

if u dont care then get the fuck out

~~~~~~

  

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Prolific1022
Member since Sep 07th 2002
244 posts
Thu Dec-25-03 12:23 AM

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66. "RE: Are Spaniards and Italians white?"
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

Define white. They do have Afrikan blood. Never let either call you nigger. Call them cousin (big ups to Hannibal's army for occupying northern Italy, and the Moors for a few hundred years in Spain & southern France...).

ONE.
----------------------------
Epitaph

in the beginning
the Word was with God
and the Word was God
when the Word was Spoken
to me poetry became more
than just another token
art form adorning a
dead white man's epitaph
---------------------------
"The World is a Stage...
We Own it!" -- The Cataclysm
"i came here to whip ass and chew bubble gum
and i'm all out of bubblelicious"
--Substantial

---------------------------
"You can only be destroyed by believing you really are what the white world calls a nigger."
--James Baldwin

  

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southphillyman
Member since Oct 22nd 2003
90059 posts
Wed Dec-17-03 10:54 AM

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40. "."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

yo yall cats dropped knowledge on me

FOREAL

~~~~~~

  

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IsaIsaIsa
Charter member
posts
Fri Dec-19-03 12:46 PM

44. "some are, some are not."
In response to Reply # 0


          


  

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VooDoo1
Member since Nov 26th 2003
13 posts
Sun Dec-21-03 11:30 PM

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46. "RE: ARE NORTH AFRICANS "BLACK"???"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

same 'crisis' we've had in south africa, where u have black peeps and black 'coloured' south africans i.e they'r lite skinned,clearly with some western genes in 'em, but they grow up as black peeps and then u get the classical 'cape coloured' whose basically like that but grew up in a more white setup.

but the real confusion was in the apartheid days when peeps had to be classified accordin to race n all,so ud have coloureds of a darker tone bein white and vice versa,ur brother could actually be classified as white n u black,ha ha, i find this concept so ridiculous.

all in all i reckon if u are an african native,i.e if uv got black blood in u then that makes u black/African, whetha u at the extreme north or south of the equator....



'motho ke motho ka batho ba bangwe' setswana sayin

  

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raool
Member since Jul 10th 2002
12355 posts
Sun Dec-21-03 11:40 PM

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47. "how do you know if you have black blood or not?"
In response to Reply # 46


          

nm

  

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oriana lee
Member since Aug 28th 2002
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Mon Dec-22-03 10:07 AM

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48. "RE: ARE NORTH AFRICANS"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

As for what for now call Egypt (which was changed under Greek rule in 3100 B.C. & means "river"), we know the antiquitious name to be KMT (often spelled Kemet) which simply means "Land of the Black". Again, the ancient Kemetic referred to themselves as Black people.

Also, many believe that Muslim culture is not indigenous to Afraka. What's commonly known as the Muslim invasion is said to have occurred around 10,000 B.C.

ACT YOUR WAIST SIZE AVAILABLE WORLDWIDE-OCTOBER 17

PLEASE VISIT OFTEN:

www.orianalee.com
www.orianalee.net

  

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Harmonia
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52. "are u nuts?"
In response to Reply # 48


  

          


>Also, many believe that Muslim culture is not indigenous to
>Afraka. What's commonly known as the Muslim invasion is said
>to have occurred around 10,000 B.C.

The Prophet Muhammad didn't get his revelation from God until 600's AD

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'I can't stand Tim McCarver. He has a penchant for making blindingly obvious statements in a self-congratulatory tone' Kyle Lohse

  

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oriana lee
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53. "RE: are u nuts?"
In response to Reply # 52


  

          

That response is a bit extra...don't you think.
I am just sharing a different perspective, which leads me to further state that since the latter half of the 20th century scholars have argued that those we now acknowledge as Muslim long predate Muhammed (Mohammed) to antiquitious times (referred to as pre-Islamic Arabia). Obviously, this theory stems from a much broader perspective of the religion that ties certain cultural practices & rituals (research the crescent) from "pre-Islamic Arabia" to post-Muhammad instruction. The same type of theory has been argued about what is now called Christianity, regarding certain rituals associated with Jesus Christ.

My personal faith lends me to believe that Islam, as we know it, entered Kemet in 646 A.D.("The Islamic Invasion"), to be exact. Nonetheless, you should consider digging deeper into new theories instead of just writing someone off as "nuts" for a mere sharing. All knowledge is relevant. Don't limit the spectrum.

ONE. UHURU.

ACT YOUR WAIST SIZE AVAILABLE WORLDWIDE-OCTOBER 17

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www.orianalee.com
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Harmonia
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56. "again, are you nuts?"
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

You said 10,000 BC!!! Now you say Islam entered Kemet in 646 AD. Which is it? Christianity, Judaism, and shit organzied religion wasn't even thought of 12,000 years ago. There wasn't even complex civilizations then. First sprung up in Mesopotamia, first real city was Uruk(Wakra) in present day Iraq 6,600 years ago. So again, where do you get off in this 10,000 BC date?

***************************************

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'I can't stand Tim McCarver. He has a penchant for making blindingly obvious statements in a self-congratulatory tone' Kyle Lohse

  

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Grand_Royal
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54. "I've always read that they were more Mediterranean"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

than they were "Black", well primarily Egyptians. Tis was determined through DNA study.

  

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Sopdet
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67. "RE: I've always read that they were more Mediterranean"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

Dna shows that Egyptians have a Yap ++ marker which is found in Egypt at rates of 50%. DNA smaples of Egyptians are only as good as where you take the sample from. For instance,if you take the sample from rual Egyptians you will find that many tend to have a sub-Saharan marker of 30-50% as opposed to the North where you will find more Arabic and European markers from past mesegenation.

Still,the Yap ++ marker shows up in Egyptians at a rate of 50% or more shows that the Egyptians inherited a large amounts of sub-Saharan admixture from pre-dyanstic times.

Here are some good references to what I say:

From Passarino et al.

Ethiopian (64) 50.0 ± 6.2
Senegalese:
Mandenka (56) 98.2 ± 1.8
Wolof (31) 100
Mixed African (44) 59.1 ± 7.4
Bantu (442) 78.0 ± 2.0
Khoisan:
Nama Sekele San 68) 46 ± 6
Tsumkwe San (38) 11 ± 5
Egyptian (64) 53.1 ± 6.2
Saudi Arabian (21) 10.0 ±6.4
European (192) 7.0 ± 1.8

<http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v62>
n2/970077/970077.html

The Yap + marker has two possible origins and are seperate from each other. One theory is that it originated in Mongolia;hwoever the Yap + originated in Africa,thus there are two different Yap + marker


http://www.larecherche.fr/arch/02/05>


For those who could not read the French in the attachment, here is a
translation of the caption to the photo of two human remains.

"These two adult men, buried together in the necropolis Adaima, in
Egypt, 3,700 years BCE, were brothers or cousins, according to the
analysis of their ADN. The test also connects them with populations
of sub-Saharan origin, which agrees with the morphological elements
concerning the population as a whole."


Here is a Y-Chromsome test on modern Egyptians:

-chromosome Haplotypes in Egypt

to appear in American Journal of Physical Anthropology
Brief communication: Y-chromosome haplotypes in Egypt
G. Lucotte *, G. Mercier
International Institute of Anthropology, Paris, France
ABSTRACT

We analyzed Y-chromosome haplotypes in the Nile River Valley in Egypt
in 274 unrelated males, using the p49a,f TaqI polymorphism. These
individuals were born in three regions along the river: in Alexandria
(the Delta and Lower Egypt), in Upper Egypt, and in Lower Nubia.
Fifteen different p49a,f TaqI haplotypes are present in Egypt, the
three most common being haplotype V (39.4%), haplotype XI (18.9%),
and haplotype IV (13.9%). Haplotype V is a characteristic Arab
haplotype, with a northern geographic distribution in Egypt in the
Nile River Valley. Haplotype IV, characteristic of sub-Saharan
populations, shows a southern geographic distribution in Egypt. Am J
Phys Anthropol 121:000-000, 2003. © 2003 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
..
As for mtDNA (Krings et al., ), the present study on the Y-
chromosome haplotype shows that there are northern and southern Y-
haplotypes in Egypt. The main Y-haplotype V is a northern haplotype,
with a significantly different frequency in the north compared to the
south of the country: frequencies of haplotype V are 51.9% in the
Delta (location A), 24.2% in Upper Egypt (location B), and 17.4% in
Lower Nubia (location C). On the other hand, haplotype IV is a
typical southern haplotype, being almost absent in A (1.2%), and
preponderant in B (27.3%) and C (39.1%). Haplotype XI also shows a
preponderance in the south (in C, 30.4%; B, 28.8%) compared to the
north (11.7% in A) of the country. In mtDNA, sequences of the first
hypervariable HpaI site at position 3592 allowed Krings et al.
() to designate each mtDNA as being of northern or southern
affiliation, and proportions of northern and southern mtDNA differed
significantly between Egypt, Nubia, and the Southern Sudan.
It is interesting to relate this peculiar north/south
differentiation, a pattern of genetic variation deriving from the two
uniparentally inherited genetic systems (mtDNA and Y chromosome), to
specific historic events. Since the beginning of Egyptian history
(3200-3100 B.C.), the legendary king Menes united Upper and Lower
Egypt. Migration from north to south may coincide with the Pharaonic
colonization of Nubia, which occurred initially during the Middle
Kingdom (12th Dynasty, 1991-1785 B.C.), and more permanently during
the New Kingdom, from the reign of Thotmosis III (1490-1437 B.C.).
The main migration from south to north may coincide with the 25th
Dynasty (730-655 B.C.), when kings from Napata (in Nubia) conquered
Egypt.
..
Concerning less frequent Y-haplotypes in Egypt, haplotype VIII is
characteristic of Semitic populations, originating in the Near East
(Lucotte et al., ). For example (Lucotte et al., ), the
frequency of haplotype VIII is 26.2% among North African Jews (where
it represents the majority haplotype) and 77.5% among Jews from the
island of Djerba (Tunisia), reaching 85.1% among Oriental (from Iraq,
Iran, and Syria) Jews. Similarly, haplotype VII had a general
geographical distribution fairly identical to that of haplotype VIII
(which it often accompanies as a secondary haplotype); haplotype VII
distinguishes itself by increased preponderance north of the
Mediterranean and in Eastern Europe (Lucotte et al., ).
Haplotype XV is the most widespread Y-haplotype in Western Europe
(Lucotte and Hazout, ), where its frequency decreases from west
to east (Semino et al., ; Lucotte and Loirat, ).
Haplotypes VIII, VII, and XV are less common haplotypes in Egypt
(7.3%, 6.6%, and 5.5%, respectively), and tend to be located in the
north of the country, near the Mediterranean coast. Possibly
haplotypes VIII, VII, and XV represent, respectively, Near East,
Greek, and Roman influences.



Notice that VI are typical southern Egyptians markers. This is well known that Southern Egyptians have had little mixture with foreginers as opposed to people in Cairo or Alexzandria who tend to show a dominance of V which is an Arab halpotype.


We analyzed Y-chromosome haplotypes in the Nile River Valley in Egypt
in 274 unrelated males, using the p49a,f TaqI polymorphism. These
individuals were born in three regions along the river: in Alexandria
(the Delta and Lower Egypt), in Upper Egypt, and in Lower Nubia.
Fifteen different p49a,f TaqI haplotypes are present in Egypt, the
three most common being haplotype V (39.4%), haplotype XI (18.9%),
and haplotype IV (13.9%). Haplotype V is a characteristic Arab
haplotype, with a northern geographic distribution in Egypt in the
Nile River Valley. Haplotype IV, characteristic of sub-Saharan
populations, shows a southern geographic distribution in Egypt. Am J
Phys Anthropol 121:000-000, 2003. © 2003 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
..

  

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Blackmagicallydelicious
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Tue Dec-23-03 05:25 AM

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55. "wouldn't they vary like anywhere else?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

You have hispanics in central and south america who are of different ethinicities, as well as any other region of the world. That's like saying a black woman who was born and raised in Europe is now white because she's European. There was already a story some years ago about a white man running into trouble for entering a college and listing his race as african american because he's from south africa.

One of the reasons we have options for labeling our race is because there are so many of them. It's ultimately up to the individual to decide what they are.

"Slaves have options. There's escape, revolt, or death. But for cowards, there's only consequences..."--from Passing Strange

  

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afrobongo
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58. "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"
In response to Reply # 0


          


  

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Defwe
Member since Apr 05th 2003
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Wed Dec-24-03 04:09 AM

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62. "haha"
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

Afrobongo don't be influenced by what you see in Barbès (Paris) !

Voilà la réponse

  

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afrobongo
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69. "lol"
In response to Reply # 62


          

no racism in my statement just a fact

  

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yuckwheat
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59. "north africa is a zone of convergence"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

which means that some people are black, some people are white, and some (a lot) are mixed.

the indigenious coastal berbers such as the kabyle of algeria tend to be pale, and have a lot in common with iberians.

  

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ConcreteCharlie
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Tue Dec-23-03 10:06 PM

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61. "RE: from what i know..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

historically africa has been beheaded mainly for the purpose of discrediting blacks for developments in egypt and other places not considered part of africa in terms beyond mere geography.

on top of that, i am morroccan (on one side) and while my grandfather has some very mild black ancestry it is widely spanish bloodlines than proceed any migration to morrocco (though I am jewish, consequently in the minority there). most of the arabs i have met wouldnt categorize themselves as black either though. i will have to back through and read this thread later to check out some of the other responses because i probably know more about south and west africa, puzzlingly enough, than i do north africa...

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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moreandmorelove
Member since Jul 26th 2002
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Wed Dec-24-03 07:34 AM

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65. "yes"
In response to Reply # 0


          

if they are in america long enough.



  

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Floating Tramp
Member since Jan 02nd 2004
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Sun Jan-04-04 10:03 AM

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68. "RE: ARE NORTH AFRICANS "BLACK"???"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Quick 'sketch'..

'North Africans' vary. But those in the far north are mainly Arab like. It's alot to do with the migration thing.

The Arab-Africans can be brutally racist. Like most other races. For many centuries they were responsible for a substantial amount of slave trade. They were known to hold their noses up at the blacks. And a fair few still do today.

It's a bit of a generalisation. But it's one that rings true.

Actually, an interesting lil' thing. The patron saint of knights was black. You know, the whole 'chivelry and honour' thing. From yer mythical Arthur and the round table, to the Germanic to the crusades against Islam. And actually, the KKK and and some Neo-nazi groups follow this whole 'knight' thing. Which i think is kind of ironic.

Just a kind of pointless thing i thought i'd mention.

______________________________

Er..the tyranny of order over the tyranny of chaos? Need former to battle latter?

Nah, i'll go with..

..cardboard boxes are useful

  

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