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Subject: "Myth of the Digital Divide?" This topic is locked.
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k_orr
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80197 posts
Wed Jan-24-01 06:51 AM

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"Myth of the Digital Divide?"


  

          

Inspired by Boodah's comment.

I'm sure all of you know some poor/working class families that seem to have enough for cable, new rims, and other high dollar disposable income items, but not even a commodore 64 in the house. What is more distressing to me, is the # of middle and upper class families of color who obviously have the means, but aren't connected. (i'm thinking of my mom at home, who uses a computer as a teacher, and my step dad who works with computers at work. They aren't online yet.)

Is it really lack of resources that keeps black folks off of the net?

Or is it something else?

Could it be the so-called anti-intellectualism of our people?

Are we afraid of computers?

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
a side issue
Jan 24th 2001
1
telephone lines?
Jan 24th 2001
3
      yeah but
Jan 24th 2001
4
           RE: yeah but
Jan 24th 2001
5
           let's not get away
Jan 24th 2001
6
           RE: let's not get away
Jan 26th 2001
30
                agree w/ everything except:
Jan 26th 2001
34
                     it's not bad
Jan 26th 2001
35
           it's like having a typewriter
Jan 24th 2001
7
                RE: it's like having a typewriter
Ruslanchik
Jan 24th 2001
8
           a note:
Jan 24th 2001
11
                Lets compare apples to apples
Jan 25th 2001
17
                     um....
Jan 25th 2001
19
                          RE: um....
Jan 25th 2001
22
                               I would bet $$$...
Jan 25th 2001
23
RE: Myth of the Digital Divide?
Jan 24th 2001
2
RE: Myth of the Digital Divide?
Sierra
Jan 24th 2001
9
RE: Myth of the Digital Divide?
Sporatic
Jan 24th 2001
10
      What needs are unmet in the typical black home?
Jan 25th 2001
13
           What for?
Jan 25th 2001
28
                RE: What for?
Jan 26th 2001
31
                RE: What for?
Jan 26th 2001
33
                     Do we have more access?
Jan 26th 2001
36
                          RE: Do we have more access?
Jan 26th 2001
40
The Digital Experiment
Jan 24th 2001
12
RE: The Digital Experiment
Jan 25th 2001
14
RE: The Digital Experiment
Jan 25th 2001
15
Hmmmmmm
Jan 25th 2001
16
RE: Hmmmmmm
Jan 25th 2001
18
      honestly...
Jan 25th 2001
20
a few thoughts...
Jan 25th 2001
21
Some Facts
Jan 25th 2001
24
RE: Some Facts
Jan 25th 2001
25
K.orr... a better question may be
Jan 25th 2001
26
will internet access be just another way
Jan 25th 2001
27
RE: will internet access be just another way
Jan 26th 2001
29
      Then how will it differ from tv?
Jan 26th 2001
37
           Dj screw
Jan 26th 2001
38
RE: K.orr... a better question may be
Jan 26th 2001
32
      RE: K.orr... a better question may be
Jan 26th 2001
39
           RE: K.orr... a better question may be
Jan 26th 2001
41
It's just a tool!
Jan 26th 2001
42
This is what I'm saying.
Jan 27th 2001
43
      RE: This is what I'm saying.
Jan 27th 2001
44
education
Jan 29th 2001
45
Revisiting this question in 2005...I think there is a divide.
Mar 09th 2005
46
Technology is just a tool
Mar 10th 2005
53
      lol 4yrs later, how's the center doing?
Mar 11th 2005
54
           I was curious too.
Mar 12th 2005
55
           It's still there, still open
Mar 12th 2005
56
Anti-intellectualism?
Mar 10th 2005
47
this post is 4 years old
Mar 10th 2005
48
      Hooooly shit.
Mar 10th 2005
51
      Yeah...I though about that
Mar 10th 2005
52
What's particularly intellectual about being online?
Mar 10th 2005
49
WHOAH...there are 2 Nahymsa's at this site
Mar 10th 2005
50

BooDaah
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32690 posts
Wed Jan-24-01 07:46 AM

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1. "a side issue"
In response to Reply # 0


          

one particular issue which i failed to mention is a lack of infrastructure.

poorer neighborhood ARE the last ones to get certian wiring capabilities becuse of the percieved lack of demand.

that's real

and for those who wanna see the original comment, here it is:

(fron the "? for everyone" post:http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/DCForumID1/1862.html#32 in responce to okp yinka's satatement)

Yinka:
>the class thing is this, most
>working class people cannot afford
>to have internet access in
>their homes. many can,
>but most cannot.
ME:
you know what though. i'm beginning to think this is a myth. do you realize that
the most expensive isp's are less than cable tv in terms of cost? additionally, i
know places where actually getting the computer is becoming easier and easier.
this is completely off topic, but i just wanted to point out that though the "digital
divide" exists, it doesn't have to. but i digress...

  

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k_orr
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80197 posts
Wed Jan-24-01 10:02 AM

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3. "telephone lines?"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

Most folks I know who aren't IT folks or in school, still use dialup.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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BooDaah
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32690 posts
Wed Jan-24-01 10:21 AM

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4. "yeah but"
In response to Reply # 3


          

both of us know...dialup is a$$ (56K?) in terms of usability (and getting worse)

i was speaking more of the access to higher (and slowly becoming standard) speeds

your point is valid though (which is why i made the comment in the first place)

if you got a tv (which most do) most can at least spring for webtv

it's all about priority.

the same way some parents will buy their kids (or themselves) brand new $150 sneakers but not have encyclopedias or a dictionary in the house

and your point about intimidation IS valid. many assume that using a computer/getting on line is harder than it really is.

  

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Shaun_G
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3009 posts
Wed Jan-24-01 10:55 AM

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5. "RE: yeah but"
In response to Reply # 4


          

Well to be honest, most people (white,black,etc) don't have dsl or cable modems. There probably is a color bias in which communities get them first.

Personally I think the importance of the internet is a little overrated. Yeah, it's nice that schools have computers, but if they aren't teaching the three R's correctly what's the point.

Other than email and researching topics quickly what can you do on the internet that is really impossible to do anywhere else?

Most of the time I use it just to waste time in between more important things I should be doing.

Shaun G.

  

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BooDaah
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32690 posts
Wed Jan-24-01 11:20 AM

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6. "let's not get away"
In response to Reply # 5


          

from the point, which (imho) is:

having computer (not just, but not negating internet) experience/skills/exposure IS important in terms of marketability/competitiveness and it should be a priority to get it and make sure your kids/communities do

>There probably
>is a color bias in
>which communities get them first.

i'd probably say more economics.

>Personally I think the importance of
>the internet is a little
>overrated.

no different than libraries. access to the information which is driving society.

not to be funny but...your answer is kinda (to me) like saying:
automobiles are overrated, why can't we just walk?

> Yeah, it's nice
>that schools have computers, but
>if they aren't teaching the
>three R's correctly what's the
>point.

the point is, that by not having computer/net access we deny ourselves the opportunity to make up for other holes which exist. example: local schools which have no books. instead of buying NEW ones, get a couple of computers and you'll have access (potentially) to the most recent editions.

need help with math? there are tons of resources ON THE NET.

school doesn't have money for field trips to museums/zoo etc?
usmp on the net, stream some video and it becomes a lot easier to spark some interest.

the possibilities are ENDLESS.

rather than buy your kid a new fubu suit...buy them some aol access (or something) and let them learn.

to a certain degree this post was about prioritizing.

>Other than email and researching topics
>quickly what can you do
>on the internet that is
>really impossible to do anywhere
>else?

with a decent computer and fast enough access you can communicate with a worldwide audience. you can literally see and talk with people across the world (at a much cheaper rate than any other readily available medium, and much faster than most also). and don't shortchange researching...what else shoudl a student be able to do? i think we both agree that in order for student to compete (or just mature beyond the many current boundaries/roadblock inherent to today's school systems) we want them to have access to the best tools.

and don't sleep i personally have taught FIRST GRADE kids how do generate a homebpage...the entire time I (internally) shook my head thinking: are the six year olds in areas like MINE getting this training (due to lack of interest/means/whatever)? i can only have so many seminars/tutoring sessions. parents gotta see the value in this stuff too (and most do, but many somehow miss the connection in terms of what THEY can do to help).

if every kid who has one of those razor scooters had as much desire to get their hands on a laptop or a book or something i'd have a whole lot less fear for the future than I do now.

i'm not silly enought to think a computer is a magic pill, but as the future hurtles toward a time when technology doubles in half the time it took compared to just say 5 years ago -- who's gonna represent folk like US in the next gen?

knameen.

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
(see Candy1's sig about what that means)
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html
-----------------------------
Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------
"What are we as African Americans? Let's really examine how we are contributing to the projection of our own images of ourselves. What are we really willing to give up? Our integrity? The honor of our community, just for some money? "-Jada

  

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Shaun_G
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3009 posts
Fri Jan-26-01 04:11 AM

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30. "RE: let's not get away"
In response to Reply # 6


          

>from the point, which (imho) is:
>
>
>having computer (not just, but not
>negating internet) experience/skills/exposure IS important
>in terms of marketability/competitiveness and
>it should be a priority
>to get it and make
>sure your kids/communities do

True, but it is deeper than just computers. We as Black people don't have our priorities straight when it comes to education anyway so computers are just the latest educational aspect we miss the boat on.

>
>>There probably
>>is a color bias in
>>which communities get them first.
>
>i'd probably say more economics.
>

Which often enough turns into a color bias anyway.

>>Personally I think the importance of
>>the internet is a little
>>overrated.
>
>no different than libraries. access to
>the information which is driving
>society.
>
>not to be funny but...your answer
>is kinda (to me) like
>saying:
>automobiles are overrated, why can't we
>just walk?
>

I didn't say that or mean that. I'm just saying that
if kids aren't learning how to read or write or do math,
computers aren't the panacea(sp?) everyone thinks it is.

>> Yeah, it's nice
>>that schools have computers, but
>>if they aren't teaching the
>>three R's correctly what's the
>>point.
>
>the point is, that by not
>having computer/net access we deny
>ourselves the opportunity to make
>up for other holes which
>exist. example: local schools which
>have no books. instead of
>buying NEW ones, get a
>couple of computers and you'll
>have access (potentially) to the
>most recent editions.
>

Seriously, if schools can't buy new books and
teachers have to buy their own paper, pencils,
etc., where are they getting the money to buy
computers and all the $$$ that goes
with it.

>need help with math? there are
>tons of resources ON THE
>NET.
>
>school doesn't have money for field
>trips to museums/zoo etc?
>usmp on the net, stream some
>video and it becomes a
>lot easier to spark some
>interest.
>
>the possibilities are ENDLESS.
>

Yeah, but they cost $$$ which is one
of the problems inner city and rural schools
have. Until you fix that problem you can't
get computers.

>rather than buy your kid a
>new fubu suit...buy them some
>aol access (or something) and
>let them learn.
>
>to a certain degree this post
>was about prioritizing.
>

You're right. Blacks prioritizing education
is a problem that existed before the 'net.
Until that is fixed, the 'net won't have
the power it should have.

>>Other than email and researching topics
>>quickly what can you do
>>on the internet that is
>>really impossible to do anywhere
>>else?
>
>with a decent computer and fast
>enough access you can communicate
>with a worldwide audience. you
>can literally see and talk
>with people across the world
>(at a much cheaper rate
>than any other readily available
>medium, and much faster than
>most also).

Maybe I just go to the wrong places, but sites
where communication actually lead to something
more than ranting and raving are few and far
between.

Too often we communicate with people all over
the world but it's alone in front of a screen
instead of face to face interaction.

and don't shortchange
>researching...what else shoudl a student
>be able to do? i
>think we both agree that
>in order for student to
>compete (or just mature beyond
>the many current boundaries/roadblock inherent
>to today's school systems)
>we want them to have
>access to the best tools.
>
Which requires money, dedicated parents, dedicated
teachers, dedicated administrators, dedicated elected
officials, dedicated volunteers etc. You get those
and you'll get computers everywhere they need to be.


>and don't sleep i personally have
>taught FIRST GRADE kids how
>do generate a homebpage...the entire
>time I (internally) shook my
>head thinking: are the six
>year olds in areas like
>MINE getting this training (due
>to lack of interest/means/whatever)? i
>can only have so many
>seminars/tutoring sessions. parents gotta see
>the value in this stuff
>too (and most do, but
>many somehow miss the connection
>in terms of what THEY
>can do to help).
>

If you have better schools that actually
challenge younger kids rather than have them
tracked and branded with 'gifted' or 'slow learner'
or 'average' as soon as the walk into the school
system creating a home page wouldn't be amazing.
It's not amazing to me. That's no more amazing than
reading at a sixth grade level in first grade.

I'm with you on the last sentence though.

>if every kid who has one
>of those razor scooters had
>as much desire to get
>their hands on a laptop
>or a book or something
>i'd have a whole lot
>less fear for the future
>than I do now.
>

Well, the desire doesn't have to be an
either/or proposition, but I'll agree.
Laptops are a lot more expensive than
a razor scooter or a book though.

>i'm not silly enought to think
>a computer is a magic
>pill, but as the future
>hurtles toward a time when
>technology doubles in half the
>time it took compared to
>just say 5 years ago
>-- who's gonna represent folk
>like US in the next
>gen?
>
>knameen.

I agree with you overall I just think the
problem is more than 'computers'. The
problems we have with educational priority
were around before email.

Peace,

Shaun G.

  

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BooDaah
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32690 posts
Fri Jan-26-01 05:59 AM

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34. "agree w/ everything except:"
In response to Reply # 30


          

> Seriously, if schools can't buy
>new books and
>teachers have to buy their own
>paper, pencils,
>etc., where are they getting the
>money to buy
>computers and all the $$$ that
>goes
>with it.

ever wonder what companies to with older obsolete models? they give them away. i know, because i've been in contact with MY own (and several other) companies to secure some boxes. 99.9 are in 100% corking condition and they're totally free.

it's one of those untapped (at least by us) resources.

that said, even with the money they DO get and decide to spend I tend to think the computers are a long term investment. even when they get obsolete -- you can have vocational classes where you teach upgrading. i don't mean to gloss over the cost issues, but that need not be a wall instead of a hurdle. of course computers aren't a necessity, but then again neither is a phone or a tv (or some jordans, of dkny jeans, etc). if you can't keep your lights on a computer isn't going to do jack for ya -- that's real. this discussion was initially about priorities and why so many folk DON'T prioritize differently (particularly in our culture where temporary material investment superseeds others).

the "digital divide" does exist (again), the question -- which a few are working on as we speak -- it what do we do about it?

i'll conclude thusly:

computers are by no means a panacea (and neither is internet access). BUT, they are a valuable tool which can ease many of the problems we face educationally -- if taught and used correctly. i don't promote the idea that if you put a computer in every classroom or home that magically the playing field will be leveled, nor do i front the idea that the use of the net should replace human interaction. just like a tv or a phone, it's a tool
and little more. i'd just like to see the potential for the usage of this tool to be realized/utilized until the net becomes a wasteland like the broadcast airwaves.
many of the reasons we select to stay away from the use of this tool are faulty, and the longer we wait to examine their usage the further behind we'll get. in a world where there are DEFINTE roadblocks to advancement, this is one small area where we can take initiative and overcome/avoid future and current hurdles.

good post k_orr

(this is definitely one for the archives)

  

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k_orr
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80197 posts
Fri Jan-26-01 06:28 AM

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35. "it's not bad"
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

I think Nahmsya's solitary vs community argument is the first one I've ever heard. Anytime I see something new, I think the discussion has been positive.

Normally this discussion goes into a few normal areas

- they need to read, write, 'rithmetic, not no computers
- back in my day....
- they can't afford it because of...
- our folks are afraid of anything white (finances, technology)
- some technical/legal issues
- I don't want my tax dollars going to no...

If nothing at all, giving someone access to a computer, should get rid of some of the fear. It's important not only for our young people, but for the older generation. If my folks could go online and compete for a better 2nd mortgage, rather than go back to the same bank they been with for years..

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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k_orr
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80197 posts
Wed Jan-24-01 11:25 AM

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7. "it's like having a typewriter"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

Or a graphing calculator. You can still get the job done with traditional means, but the people who can use better tools, get better results.

> Yeah, it's nice
>that schools have computers, but
>if they aren't teaching the
>three R's correctly what's the
>point.

The net better than anything could supplement, and for a really interested student, replace a lot of what goes on in formal education.

But the studies done on putting computers in homes of low income families are kinda mixed. At first it was the rage, e-mail, et cetera, but when the ink ran out, or they couldn't afford the ISP charges, it started to gather dust.

But one problem I see with the neighborhood I was born in, and ones that I have worked in, is that folks can't see past the block. Everything that is everything happens in the neighborhood. That mentality scares me.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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Ruslanchik

Wed Jan-24-01 12:25 PM

  
8. "RE: it's like having a typewriter"
In response to Reply # 7


          

In the past our economy was based around production or services, but today the majority of our jobs are based primarily in the manipulation of information. If you don't have access to info you don't get the good job and you don't get the bread on the table. The internet is nothing but a huge information resource. If you can find any information you need, you can get anywhere.

Also, computer skills are the most important to finding a job today. I have a college degree and minimal computer skills and had a bitch of a time finding a job, but my friend who dropped out of school to play computer games gets paid more in a better environment using the computer skills he has.

The typewriter can go to hell, i'll take the computer!

Russell

  

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bluetiger
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36723 posts
Wed Jan-24-01 02:08 PM

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11. "a note:"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

>both of us know...dialup is a$$
>(56K?) in terms of usability
>(and getting worse)
>
>i was speaking more of the
>access to higher (and slowly
>becoming standard) speeds

Considering the concentration of African Americans in urban areas where cable lines (for cable modems) and copper lines (old phone lines provide the best service for dsl) are more prevalent than in rural areas, Af-Ams actually, as group, have a greater (and more reliable) access to these resources. Cost is the only real issue. Is $30 -$50 too much for high speed access service?


>if you got a tv (which
>most do) most can at
>least spring for webtv

If you can afford webtv, then a real PC and equivalent internet access are not that much off in terms of price.

>it's all about priority.

Thats the proverbial nail on the head.

>the same way some parents will
>buy their kids (or themselves)
>brand new $150 sneakers but
>not have encyclopedias or a
>dictionary in the house
>
>and your point about intimidation IS
>valid. many assume that using
>a computer/getting on line is
>harder than it really is.

Many people still think the internet is a part of the devil's plan to imprint the mark of the beast on every aspect of our daily lives too (yes that was sarcasm). We need to get over superstition and conjecture, and get educated about what the internet and its access can do for our communities.


Thanks for reading. I love you.

"What are you but my reflection, who am I to judge or strike you down?" - MJK

In Rotation:
Organized Konfusion - OK
Fiona Apple - When The Pawn
Jimmy Smith - Root Down
OutKast - Stankonia
Tool - Salival
Slum Village - Fantastic Vol II

don't be fkn evil.

  

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Wendell
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8207 posts
Thu Jan-25-01 09:24 AM

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17. "Lets compare apples to apples"
In response to Reply # 11


          

"Considering the concentration of African Americans in urban areas where cable lines (for cable modems) and copper lines (old phone lines provide the best service for dsl) are more prevalent than in rural areas, Af-Ams actually, as group, have a greater (and more reliable) access to these resources. Cost is the only real issue. Is $30 -$50 too much for high speed access service?"

According to a phone line repairman in my neighborhood (who was repairing my line), "the infrastructure is so old on the South Side (minority neighborhoods) that they (local phone companies) might as well tear everything down and start fresh. But they won't do that because it costs too much money." The brother told me that the phone lines on the "other side of the city" have been properly maitained and that's why they (Caucasians) get better service. He went on to talk about the political process and how to go about fixing our lines (citizens utilities boards). But the point is, comparing our situation to a rural situation is not appropriate.

Peace

Wendell


Peace

Wendell

  

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bluetiger
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36723 posts
Thu Jan-25-01 10:02 AM

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19. "um...."
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

that phone line repairman doesn't know nathan about dsl service. The older, thicker copper lines transmit the digital signal much better than the newer, thinner ones. The infrastructure at each telco in any urban area (regardless of household income) is almost identical because its more cost effective for the phone companies.

Thanks for reading. I love you.

"What are you but my reflection, who am I to judge or strike you down?" - MJK

In Rotation:
Organized Konfusion - OK
Fiona Apple - When The Pawn
Jimmy Smith - Root Down
OutKast - Stankonia
Tool - Salival
Slum Village - Fantastic Vol II

don't be fkn evil.

  

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Wendell
Charter member
8207 posts
Thu Jan-25-01 11:47 AM

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22. "RE: um...."
In response to Reply # 19


          

You may be correct about the quality of the line (I wouldn't know) but the phone guy was talking about how certain areas of the city had newer poles and circuit thingies (I'm really showing my expertise here) that required less maintanence and worked better. My point is the ENTIRE city does not have the same infrastructure.

Peace

Wendell

Peace

Wendell

  

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bluetiger
Charter member
36723 posts
Thu Jan-25-01 12:56 PM

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23. "I would bet $$$..."
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

that what he was referring to was the implementation of fiber optic lines and multiplexers which generally get put into new developments. Fiber optic lines suck for dsl service but are decent for analog service. They still have to run copper lines from the mutliplexers to residences/businesses just to get the digital signal.

Thanks for reading. I love you.

"What are you but my reflection, who am I to judge or strike you down?" - MJK

In Rotation:
Organized Konfusion - OK
Fiona Apple - When The Pawn
Jimmy Smith - Root Down
OutKast - Stankonia
Tool - Salival
Slum Village - Fantastic Vol II

don't be fkn evil.

  

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polorican
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1594 posts
Wed Jan-24-01 08:51 AM

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2. "RE: Myth of the Digital Divide?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Godspeed

Are they really "disconnected"? Where do I find a stat that proves this? Just because black people aren't in the technology sector doesn't mean their uninformed of the internet. I'll disagree because the internet is outdated (as far as the "people" who run things in this world are concerned). minorities by choice or circumstance get put on to new things (for the most part) once "things" are on the decline or not as new. You know the old real estate saying "location, location, location". Well in this age of information the key to success is speed, speed, speed.

We need to be quciker than the next...

one,

===
Your OKP boxing specialist since 1999
===
WE will be here forever, WE will STILL be here forever, GET WHAT IM SAYIN’ – FOREVER!!! © KRS1

  

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Sierra

Wed Jan-24-01 12:26 PM

  
9. "RE: Myth of the Digital Divide?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I'm pretty sure some Black folks just don't realize (because of naive~ness or lack of information), but they don't realize all the diverse things available to them through the NET.

Possibly fear of the unknown, and aprehension about learning something new that appears to be so complicated! --- (Even tho we know it really isn't)

Possibly some folks are hesitant to make a purchase of this caliber, if it may come up missing (stolen or sold by a druggie relative) depending on the neighborhood and/or environment.

Possibly some of us just ain't got our priorities together as far as what we NEED to better ourselves & increase our knowledge base ---- vs. ---- what we WANT to look good, or what sounds good in our stereo, or whatver.

There's actually a lot of possibilities --- yep!








"I'm so hardcore niggaz take me for granite". - Spontaneous


"if underground means not being exposed, better go on and get your naked ass some clothes" - Dela Soul

  

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Sporatic

Wed Jan-24-01 01:49 PM

  
10. "RE: Myth of the Digital Divide?"
In response to Reply # 9


          


Regardless of how much we hail the home PC as the "digital messiah of the millenium".. it still remains that it IS NOT YET A BASIC NEceSSITY.

And even still... the entrance of computers into Black American homes won't be wrought with 40 somethings trying to beat the tide of the trend.... they will be wrought with little ones... as birthday gifts or christmas present.... college gifts....

These children will force their parents to buy computers because their school cirricula almost necessitate them...

So the absence of computers in the Black home may in fact stem from the absence of computers in the Black community...














fuck
Eve
Pandora
& Delilah..
we EARTH WATER WIND and FIRE
We spread the legs that breed empires
Then she took me higher…
She was like
We reign Supreme like Sheba Queens
Nephratiti and Alcamene..
We channel life like Khundilni…

And I could feel her free me….

  

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k_orr
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80197 posts
Thu Jan-25-01 05:15 AM

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13. "What needs are unmet in the typical black home?"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

Having worked with folks at the poverty line, food, shelter, and clothing have been taken care of. The only thing missing from those families was access to the interstate highway. (well a stable home environment is also a need...) But after that, they should be thinking about the information superhighway.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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nahymsa
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Thu Jan-25-01 08:33 PM

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28. "What for?"
In response to Reply # 13


          

The main reason I see a need for minorities to get on is because the powers that be are. But the powers that be are, not because of consumer demand or particularly out of necessity - it tends to be another tool to foster consumerism, another method to reach a broader audience.

Having access to the internet is not that different than having access to a mall bookstore or direct tv. Its not just about getting online, its about what's there when you finally get on. Its about who controls the content, who controls the search engines, who controls the tolls for the highway, who sets the rules & regulates the highway, etc.

I'm not saying shouldn't or wont be involved in the internet but there's this idea floating around that the information highway & access to it, can/will be the great equalizer. That's just not true. We will have the same issues, different format.

  

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Shaun_G
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Fri Jan-26-01 04:15 AM

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31. "RE: What for?"
In response to Reply # 28


          

Thanks for stating what I couldn't state as clearly as I wanted to.

I agree with you 100%.

Shaun G.

  

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k_orr
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80197 posts
Fri Jan-26-01 05:16 AM

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33. "RE: What for?"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

>The main reason I see a
>need for minorities to get
>on is because the powers
>that be are. But the
>powers that be are, not
>because of consumer demand or
>particularly out of necessity -
>it tends to be another
>tool to foster consumerism, another
>method to reach a broader
>audience.

That is how big business is using that. But there are parts of the net that are sufficiently free of that type of top down control. (usenet, irc, free servers..) How much the gen public knows about that, might be a function of big business promotion and the need for such thing by the public.

>Having access to the internet is
>not that different than having
>access to a mall bookstore
>or direct tv.

The net is more than that. It's not just new age optimism talking.

Its not
>just about getting online, its
>about what's there when you
>finally get on. Its about
>who controls the content, who
>controls the search engines, who
>controls the tolls for the
>highway, who sets the rules
>& regulates the highway, etc.

In it's current form you can avoid the control. How savvy you have to be to do this, is another question.
- usenet - no controls content
- search engines - bots are free
- charges - there is still a lot of free info, if you have access
- regulation - hopefully none, but I have a feeling we will see that end in the next 10 years.

>I'm not saying shouldn't or wont
>be involved in the internet
>but there's this idea floating
>around that the information highway
>& access to it, can/will
>be the great equalizer. That's
>just not true. We will
>have the same issues, different
>format.

No doubt, but access to information is a far better weapon than we've had before.

k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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nahymsa
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1734 posts
Fri Jan-26-01 09:40 AM

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36. "Do we have more access?"
In response to Reply # 33


          

Or just a different method of getting at the same old material
>
>That is how big business is using that. But there are parts of >the net that are sufficiently free of that type of top down
>control (usenet, irc, free servers..).

True but at some level, big business or government still plays a role in providing the ability to use those services.

>>Having access to the internet is not that different than >having access to a mall bookstore or direct tv.
>
>The net is more than that.

In what way? It can be more than those things in some areas but it also can be LESS.

>Its not just about getting online, its about what's there when >you finally get on. Its about who controls the content, who
>>controls the search engines, who controls the tolls for the
>>highway, who sets the rules & regulates the highway, etc.
>
>In it's current form you can avoid the control. How savvy you >have to be to do this, is another question. - usenet - no controls content.

I'm taking it a little further than that, I think. Its not about free search engines or newsgroups...its about who controls those groups, who controls the the fiber, who controls IP registration, the technical structures required to have internet access, the monitoring of that access, the laws controlling ways in which we can use web & the enforcement of them.

Its also about awareness....as more & more people gain access & more & more people develop a web presence, the quantity of the information limits individual visibility. The information can be there but whats the point if no one knows. You still are tied to the standard principles of marketing & promotion - you just have a larger audience. Yes, we'll have faster & more access to information but faster & more are only relative to those running along side us. Their capacity to put their information out to an even larger group will increase too.

>I have a feeling we will see that end in the next 10 years.

Yes, not to mention, we can & some are being monitored today.

>No doubt, but access to information is a far better weapon
>than we've had before.

Yes, if we can find it, trust it, and control it. There isn't a plan in place for that.



  

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k_orr
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80197 posts
Fri Jan-26-01 11:09 AM

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40. "RE: Do we have more access?"
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

>Or just a different method of
>getting at the same old
>material

Napster is a good example. Everyone has a record store, but few people have the funds to afford everything that they want to hear. But I won't go down this path today.

>True but at some level, big
>business or government still plays
>a role in providing the
>ability to use those services.

The back bones yes. But folks are already putting together guerilla networks. For about 2 grand, you can set up a your own wireless nodes for a network. There are projects in the North West, in which Mac Airports have been hacked, and the folks are setting up their own private nets. Again this ain't for everyone, but there are folks working to get outside of those parameters.

>In what way? It can
>be more than those things
>in some areas but it
>also can be LESS.

For instance?

>I'm taking it a little further
>than that, I think.
>Its not about free search
>engines or newsgroups...

>its about who controls those groups,
No one controls the usenet. As long as you have access to a newsserver...

>who controls the the fiber,

Fibers are vulnerable. You can operate outside of fibers though. You can operate computer networks wirelessly. It's not as efficient, at this point though.

The idea of the net is very dangerous for the power structures. The information to opt out of the net is in it's infancy stages, but it will happen.

>Its also about awareness....as more &
>more people gain access &
>more & more people develop
>a web presence, the quantity
>of the information limits individual
>visibility.

It depends on how you view it. Instead of having to recieve my news from 1 newspaper, 2 wire services, and 3 net works, I now have the option of getting it from a myriad of sources. Principle wise, it can't really be stopped. Tech wise is another question.

>The information can be
>there but whats the point
>if no one knows.

Zero link sites. I feel you on that. But it's the same way it is now. Most folks don't know what they're state rep is doing, or how they are voting, with our without the net.

You
>still are tied to the
>standard principles of marketing &
>promotion - you just have
>a larger audience.

Wrong direction. We shouldn't be trying to build a large well organized and defined structure. There should be no central meeting place for Af Am's online. www.black.com/militant or www.black.com/sell_out...

Yes, we'll
>have faster & more access
>to information but faster &
>more are only relative to
>those running along side us.

So the disconnect is me telling my folks who aren't online what is going on?

>>I have a feeling we will see that end in the next 10 years.
>
>Yes, not to mention, we can
>& some are being monitored
>today.

FBI's Carnivore. I'm sure they've got a file on me now. But it's not different than it was before. FICO #'s (a way to calculate credit ratings) is far more deterimental to me and you than anything we say online. And that's a private net.

>>No doubt, but access to information is a far better weapon
>>than we've had before.
>
>Yes, if we can find it,
>trust it, and control it.
>There isn't a plan in
>place for that.

It, is us. Which is where I'm coming from. You can put your info up, and connect with other like minded heads.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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Nettrice
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Wed Jan-24-01 05:23 PM

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12. "The Digital Experiment"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I wish I had peeped this thread earlier because I love to talk about the illusion of the "digital divide". First, my life has been distinguished by the fact that my mother was a poor Black young woman in the 60's South when she decided to become a computer programmer/analyst. Her family was very poor and she was the first college graduate. Her philosophy degree didn't get her a job so, without formal training, she applied and got a computer programming job in the early 70's.

When I was a child I was exposed to computers every day but we never used them at home. We did not use computers at home because we had no need for them. There was no Internet so we spent hours in the library, in dance class or art class. I did not really use a computer until I was 17 and I used it to make art. I made a digital art portfolio that earned me a four-year art college scholarship.

Now, I am opening a multimedia center in Roxbury, Massachusetts in two weeks. I have been setting up and managing computer and digital art programs in urban cities in Chicago, NYC, and the Boston area for several years (throughout my twenties). This new center is a new concept: put high-end computers, high-speed Internet, multimedia software AND quality training programs in areas where low and moderate income people live and the will come.

Show a poor person or a "minority" how to master technology tools, then show the same person how to make a living or enhance his/her daily life and this person will come back again and again. He/she will have a reason to save money, buy a decent computer and high-speed Internet access. He/she will know that there is a practical purpose for the technology and a opportunity for empowerment.

This multimedia center is just an experiment but I am confident in it's success. The center is in a shopping mall, in a community populated by mostly Black people. Without having even seen a computer in the center people signed up to become members. We'll teach web site development, multimedia job training, digital video/audio production, nonlinear editing, and streaming media and they will come...and they will soon be the creators & engineers of digital products, not just passive consumers.

Don't believe the hype about the so-called digital divide.

"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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lbpuppy
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836 posts
Thu Jan-25-01 08:46 AM

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14. "RE: The Digital Experiment"
In response to Reply # 12


          

I was looking into this idea also. Keep me informed on your progress with your center .

lbpuppy@hotmail.com

As far as Digital Divide, I feel that it does exist. Especially in the South. Currently I am a programmer/webmaster/beta-tester for my company. I found that some of my clients and audience of web sites sometimes have problems navigating web sites I design.

Also in my community PC are not hot items to have in homes, which I feel, should be. That's why exploring opening up a community center to teach at least the basic of using the PC and Internet.


"Now don't that put the pig feet in the collard greens." - sista from Macon

"Livin in a world that’s oh so strange
Boy don’t let your focus change
Takin out the demons in your range" - e. badu

"but y'know
one man's heaven is other man's hell." - ?uestion

  

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Mesnjah
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376 posts
Thu Jan-25-01 09:09 AM

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15. "RE: The Digital Experiment"
In response to Reply # 12


          

Wow Nettrice that center sounds great. I'm from the Boston area so I might have to check that out when I get back home. I think when you say the digital divide is an illusion you're defining it differently than most people do. I wrote a paper on it last year and the term is most often used to describe the different rates of access between communities, not a bias against using the technology by the underrepresented groups. It's been shown that expanding the technology infrastructure and building community computer training centers is the best way to close the gap in access rates. I would say there is definitely still a digital divide between white & asian vs. black & latino, rural & inner-city vs. suburban, and wealthy vs. middle & low income people. But the differential is due primarily to lack of infrastructure and access in the home, and this is accentuated by lack of access at secondary locations like schools, libraries and the workplace for those underserved groups. Programs like yours are precisely what's needed to close the gap though and I'm really glad you're bringing something like this to the Boston area. I assume you're familiar with Plugged In of East Palo Alto, CA which is sort of the pioneer of community technology access centers. President Clinton spoke there along with Jesse Jackson and Carly Fiorina (head of HP) at a Digital Divide summit last April. I go to Stanford and volunteer with some other programs in EPA so I can tell you more about them. Their site is www.pluggedin.org.

Respect,
MJ

We keep it type raw, and know exactly what we fight for / when the nightfall come, we in the right war / Cats who spill blood for a cause, not just because / Defy the authority and follow God's law / Revolutionary entrepeneurs... - Talib

  

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MisterGrump
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Thu Jan-25-01 09:09 AM

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16. "Hmmmmmm"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Off tops.......


It may be a continuation of folks' fear of financial instituions since some see internet access as being used for monetary means(on-line banking, stock trading, business needs, etc).

Either that or it could possibly be that folks ain't hip to the uses a computer with internet access has.





They love me in the hood, I'm like the Ice Cream Truck!!
(c)JadaKiss
*************************************
http://members.blackplanet.com/GrumpyBear/
*************************************

________________________________________
Grump
http://twitter.com/Gator_Bell

  

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Mesnjah
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376 posts
Thu Jan-25-01 09:37 AM

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18. "RE: Hmmmmmm"
In response to Reply # 16


          

Part of the obstacle to all newcomers to technology is that computers still aren't user friendly enough. Even if they get on the web, it takes a while to figure out what you're doing, how to find information you want, and to discover all the cool sites you might like. If people would just buy iMacs at least half the battle would be won!

MJ

We keep it type raw, and know exactly what we fight for / when the nightfall come, we in the right war / Cats who spill blood for a cause, not just because / Defy the authority and follow God's law / Revolutionary entrepeneurs... - Talib

  

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BooDaah
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32690 posts
Thu Jan-25-01 10:13 AM

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20. "honestly..."
In response to Reply # 18


          

is it harder than

- learning to drive?
- learning math?
- learning to cook?
- figuring out all 70+ cable channels?

get my point? priorities (redux)...

anyway, i know that a lot of folk have a fear of "breaking" the computer -- intimidation that they are gonna push a button and blow the thing up

(btw - user friendliness IS a big deal though. making software easier to load, and manipulate -- as well as making hardware a little smarter WOULD help. )


  

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poetx
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58802 posts
Thu Jan-25-01 11:16 AM

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21. "a few thoughts..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

* don't know if there really is a pronounced divide. i recall seeing statistics which support that we are on the 'net more and some that assert that we're on less. there've also been high profile black techies/gubm't types who've disputed the divide. that could be a "shame" reaction, or it could be real. i haven't deemed the issue enough of a priority up until this point to do the math myself.

* are the cheap pc deals credit-based? that would limit their proliferation throughout the black community. i think, though, it s more an issue of priority and education about the opportunities. for the $400 ISP rebate deals, coupled w/ a cheap computer, its probably do-able for the price of some Jordan's and an outfit.

* i gave my mother-in-law, who is decidedly non-technical, my old os/2 machine and let her "share" my dialup account. even w/ low bandwidth (around a 36k connection) and a dust-old version of Netscape (it gets V3 compliant java and javascript, but flash and shockwave, etc are out of the question), she is able to keep in touch w/ family via e-mail, research different things via e-mail, and generally play in the whole e-happ'nins. she told my wife and i about classmates.com, where you can get in touch w/ folks you went to high school. she learned it from my wife's grandmother who's pushing 70, and talkin bout SHE want a computer because friends at her 50-some year class reunion was talking about that's how THEY keep in touch.

* my bro-in-law, who disappears from the face of the earth for about 2 yrs at a time, popped up in his recent incarnation, w/ a computer, and regularly searches for mp3's (burnt me some nice cd's), and more impressively, has found his last couple of jobs by posting his resume on the net.

* it comes down to "what's in it for us". if we get the word out that

A: there are ways of making the purchase affordable (ie, $100-200 range, minus discounts and promotions)

B: there are tangible benefits to it, like keeping up w/ far flung family (reducing crazy long distance $$$'s), finding jobs, entertainment (be it oprah.com, okp, or whatever), getting music, researching medical conditions (very big draw among seniors particularly)

and

C: there are future benefits (educational resources for the little ones, ability to start a small business, or prepare for a career change)

i think that we'd be all over it.



peace & blessings,

x.

peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just
focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and
not having much to show for it. (c) mad

  

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Nettrice
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61747 posts
Thu Jan-25-01 03:09 PM

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24. "Some Facts"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>Wow Nettrice that center sounds great.
> I'm from the Boston
>area so I might have
>to check that out when
>I get back home.

Thanks! Sure, come check us out. We'll be in the Mall of Roxbury (formerly Washington Park Mall), 306 MLK Blvd. Soon we'll have a site up and info will be online. The grand opening is on February 7, 2001 with the Mayor doing the dedication.

>I wrote a paper on
>it last year and the
>term is most often used
>to describe the different rates
>of access between communities, not
>a bias against using the
>technology by the underrepresented groups.

An excerpt from a recent press release:
http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/010115/02022052/html

"New research addressing the digital divide issue was sponsored by FleetBoston Financial Foundation and conducted by UMass. A survey questioned 1,600 residents of low-to-moderate-income neighborhoods in the Northeast, 752 with incomes under $40K to examine both the rate of computer and Internet penetration in inner cities and to identify obstacles to greater digital inclusion. The sites included Boston, Harlem, Brooklyn, Newark, and Hartford. The findings suggest that while income marks the digital dividing line, computer access alone will not bridge the technology gap, and that comfort in learning how to navigate the Internet is also a major factor."

> But the differential is due primarily
>to lack of infrastructure and
>access in the home, and
>this is accentuated by lack
>of access at secondary locations
>like schools, libraries and the
>workplace for those underserved groups.

Also, from the press release"

"The challenge is to offer broad-based solutions which address access, training and content that can make the real difference."

"80 percent of those surveyed who are not familiar with the Internet said they would be eager or likely to participate in computer and Internet training if given a free computer and free Internet access. Four out of 10 said they would prefer training in a small group with their top choice in a community center."

> Programs like yours are
>precisely what's needed to close
>the gap though and I'm
>really glad you're bringing something
>like this to the Boston
>area. I assume you're
>familiar with Plugged In of
>East Palo Alto, CA which
>is sort of the pioneer
>of community technology access centers.

I definately know about Plugged In but the first community technology center or ctc was established in Harlem, NY. Playing to Win was opened in 1990 or 1991. I was not aware of it until later. Playing to Win II (now Somerville Community Computing Center) was opened a couple of years later and from this came Playing to Win Network (now CTCNet) with over 400 member centers.

I think my first point was meant to address the illusion that poor people are unmotivated or incapable to learn technology. Poor people and people of color have always struggled to cross divides to get opportunities. This so-called digital divide is really nothing new.


"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Nettrice
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61747 posts
Thu Jan-25-01 03:11 PM

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25. "RE: Some Facts"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

Whoops! The link to the article has expired. If I find it somewhere else I'll post it.

Peace!

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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nahymsa
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1734 posts
Thu Jan-25-01 08:00 PM

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26. "K.orr... a better question may be"
In response to Reply # 0


          

what will heavy use of this type of medium do to our community

I work for an ISP...
I'm steps away from being a certified MCSE....
I'm online all the time

Computers are a necessity for the most part
But the internet is not yet a necessity for the average citizen

I question whether it ever should be.....though if we're not in the position to govern whether it will, I guess we'll have to get with the program.

I think that part of the resistance to computers (in general) and the internet specifically is the fact that they are such a solitary mediums and we are community/group minded people. Most people don't roam the net in groups, its an individual pursuit. That's why its a nest for freaks, geeks, & nerds...that's why even these loners sought out communities - some type of human interaction. Currently, the most popular aspects of the net involve actions cloaked in secrecy (the sex biz), community groups (chat/forums), or delivery of specific services (amazon books).

I disagree with the idea that being wired up is somehow tied in with the intellectual capacity of the enduser. You don't have to be smart to be online - anymore than you have to be smart to drive a car or use a phone. Frankly, a lot of what happens in this medium is silly & frivilous - another type of television, another dumb talk show, another dirty magazine.

From what I see the most important part of the internet is quicker access to some critical information, quicker ways to connect for groups of people to connect. But even these positives can be negatives if not done right. Coming back from a 4 day vacation, I had over 100 emails to sift thru, and out of the relatively handful that were important, I still needed to email back & forth and make a phone call & give verbal confirm. The dot com businesses are in trouble now because too many of them weren't really necessary - it was all smoke & mirrors, same ole business, new clothes to dress it in.

I think Black people aren't online as much because many of us don't feel we need to be ..we can get things done without it. To be honest. so could most people - that's why companies are limiting internet use. Then we have concerns about the government tracking our movements - a fear that's based on a very real foundation. And on top of it, the computer is a tool of a the solitary - it hasn't been developed to a point where it can be a gathering place - like the tv. though that's coming. I think we're more hesistant to adjust ourselves to that solitary mentality required to be a ...and maybe rightly so.

  

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nahymsa
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Thu Jan-25-01 08:03 PM

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27. "will internet access be just another way"
In response to Reply # 26


          

....to sell us some more bullshit?

...and tell us some more lies?


  

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Nettrice
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Fri Jan-26-01 03:27 AM

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29. "RE: will internet access be just another way"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

Yes, the Internet will become another way to market pre-packaged propaganda, media hype and commercialism. This is why people need to be trained to use technology as a tool for empowerment. They need to be active, producers of the content, not passive consumers. They need to become the conductors and engineers of the digital age, not the victims of innovation or digital information.

Sure there are other important things to do in life than surf the Internet. Personally, I excercise, read, take classes, manage a nonprofit, meditate and help other people. I use technology to enhance my activities when I can and I can find info or resources on the Internet for just about everything I listed above.

Change and adversity is what one makes it. If people fear change or innovation they will continue to be on the other side of this so-called divide. If people see this technology as a threat to their way of life rather than mastering the tool to enhance life then people are doomed to be victims.



"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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nahymsa
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Fri Jan-26-01 09:52 AM

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37. "Then how will it differ from tv?"
In response to Reply # 29


          

They need to be active, producers of the
>content, not passive consumers.

You can produce the content, how will you get it to the masses. Millions of people have their own sites, millions of sites don't reach more than a handfull of people. The development of web advertising companies (at cost) is for just this reason. The link btwn traditional media & new media is necessary for large corporations for just this reason. No we shouldn't be passive consumers but the same types of issues we have in print and television, movie industries are following unto the web.
>
>Personally, I excercise, read, take classes,
>manage a nonprofit, meditate and help other people. I
>use technology to enhance my activities when I can and
>I can find info or resources on the Internet for
>just about everything I listed above.

And before the web, what did we do? our ability (as a community) to come together & get the word out was better before TV, ya dig. The internet can be a resource but other mediums work if utilized, the net is not a necessity to do any of the things you described. Having the tools isn't enough.....we've always had tools.

>Change and adversity is what one makes it. If people
>fear change or innovation they will continue to be on
>the other side of this so-called divide. If people
>see this technology as a threat to their way of
>life rather than mastering the tool to enhance life then
>people are doomed to be victims.

I'm not scared of change but all change isn't good & there is no guarantee that these changes are going to help rather than hinder. My point is that whatever we do, the problems of our community and the oppression we face won't be solved by internet access or use. Its a tool yes, its our saviour - no.

  

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k_orr
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Fri Jan-26-01 10:55 AM

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38. "Dj screw"
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

I think the net can be used to enhance the channels we already have. If local dj's can sell 100,000 copies of their music in the local region, through word of mouth, it means that the net can be another mode of transmission.

It's not going to replace anything, nor is it superior to actual contact.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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k_orr
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Fri Jan-26-01 05:06 AM

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32. "RE: K.orr... a better question may be"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

>what will heavy use of this
>type of medium do to
>our community

It depends on what it's used for. But at the very least, it can promote computer literacy and typing. Knowing those 2 basic things, brings folks back from the negative.

>Computers are a necessity for the
>most part
>But the internet is not yet
>a necessity for the average
>citizen

Personally, I think it's a lot like a cell phone. You don't need one, but when you have it, you realize how useful it is. (I"m cell phone free, though)

>I think that part of the
>resistance to computers (in general)
>and the internet specifically is
>the fact that they are
>such a solitary mediums and
>we are community/group minded people.

That might be plausible, but seemlingly black folks take to any technological invention within their means. PSX, Video games, Cellulars, TV's, DVD's, 2 way pagers,...IE, I see the net more like the next gadget and not a social experiment.

>Most people don't roam the
>net in groups, its an
>individual pursuit.

I would say that we as Af. Americans don't always operate in groups as a choice. But that's a diff convo for a different time.

That's why its
>a nest for freaks, geeks,
>& nerds...that's why even these
>loners sought out communities -
>some type of human interaction.

I'll go with that.

>Currently, the most popular aspects
>of the net involve actions
>cloaked in secrecy (the sex
>biz), community groups (chat/forums), or
>delivery of specific services (amazon
>books).

The killer app for the net is e-mail. Everything else comes in a distant 2nd.

>I disagree with the idea that
>being wired up is somehow
>tied in with the intellectual
>capacity of the enduser.

Me too. But it has been suggested by various folks in different places that I have been. Am I, online since 93, the anomaly, or the norm?

You
>don't have to be smart
>to be online -

ain't that the truth..

anymore
>than you have to be
>smart to drive a car
>or use a phone. Frankly,
>a lot of what happens
>in this medium is silly
>& frivilous - another type
>of television, another dumb talk
>show, another dirty magazine.

>From what I see the most
>important part of the internet
>is quicker access to some
>critical information, quicker ways to
>connect for groups of people
>to connect. But even these
>positives can be negatives if
>not done right.

I would rather have my folks have to deal with discretion over those matters, as opposed to not having the decision to make.

Coming back
>from a 4 day vacation,
>I had over 100 emails
>to sift thru, and out
>of the relatively handful that
>were important, I still needed
>to email back & forth
>and make a phone call
>& give verbal confirm.

Hopefully that will end on the business side of things.

The
>dot com businesses are in
>trouble now because too many
>of them weren't really necessary
>- it was all smoke
>& mirrors, same ole business,
>new clothes to dress it
>in.

Some of the dot.coms weren't even businesses.

>I think Black people aren't online
>as much because many of
>us don't feel we need
>to be ..we can get
>things done without it.

No doubt. But this is not like choosing between a ferrari and a bus, it's more like an old car from the 60's and one from 2K.

>To be honest. so could
>most people - that's why
>companies are limiting internet use.

It "kills" productivity? If I wasn't online, I'd be wasting time doing something else. (I actually wouldn't have this job were it not for the net).

>Then we have concerns about
>the government tracking our movements
>- a fear that's based
>on a very real foundation.

Tech solutions, and social hacks can stop that. But I feel you on it. But is this an actual concern of folks you know?

> And on top of
>it, the computer is a
>tool of a the solitary
>- it hasn't been developed
>to a point where it
>can be a gathering place
>- like the tv. though
>that's coming. I think
>we're more hesistant to adjust
>ourselves to that solitary mentality
>required to be a ...and
>maybe rightly so.

Interesting, I'm not sure I can go with the solitary vs community argument though

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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nahymsa
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Fri Jan-26-01 11:01 AM

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39. "RE: K.orr... a better question may be"
In response to Reply # 32


          

>It depends on what it's used for. But at the very least, it can promote computer literacy and typing.

come on hon, you know the most rabid net users can be very computer illerate. As for typing, well I type about 75 a minute now...I don't think the average user white, black, or otherwise) types at that speed. Its a skill that useful but I'm not sure how critical it is - guess it depends on what you're talking about. In terms of employment, it can be an asset if developed along with other more critical skills.

>Personally, I think it's (internet) a lot
>like a cell phone. You don't need one, but
>when you have it, you realize how useful it is.
>(I"m cell phone free, though).

True. Though, I'm finding that my cell is as much of a shackle as it is an asset - especially at work.
>
>That might be plausible, but seemlingly black folks take to any
>technological invention within their means. > PSX, Video games, Cellulars, TV's, DVD's, 2 way pagers,...IE,
>I see the net more like the next gadget and
>not a social experiment.

Computers & the net aren't used like any of the other gadgets you listed. Computers (especially in the lower price ranges) are stationary - unlike cells/pagers. They aren't social gathering points - like a tv/dvd/video game in the living room. Computers & the net require a different type of interaction, dont ya think.
>
>>Most people don't roam the >net in groups, its an
>>individual pursuit.
>
>I would say that we as Af. Americans don't always operate
>in groups as a choice. But that's a diff convo for a different time.

I think we do, but less & less as time goes on.

>The killer app for the net is e-mail. Everything else
>comes in a distant 2nd.

True, its one aspect of the net that I use all the time..but then I'm dealing with that quantity over quality thing.

>Am I, online since 93, the anomaly, or the norm?

Your an anomaly...definetly.
>
>I would rather have my folks have to deal with discretion
>over those matters, as opposed to not having the decision
>to make.

true but aren't we using our discretion in this area or do you believe that most of us just don't know better. When I didn't have the internet, i couldn't wait to get it, now sometimes I wish I didn't have it.

>Some of the dot.coms weren't even
>businesses.

LOL...word.

>It "kills" productivity? If I wasn't online, I'd be wasting
>time doing something else. (I actually wouldn't have this
>job were it not for the net).

I wouldn't have mine either. But many business in the new media industry are notoriously wasteful with unproductive workers. Right now the entire industry is on shaky foundation, and I think more layoffs are on the way.

>Tech solutions, and social hacks can stop that.

The government is hiring the hacks. The brightest "criminals" will always come up with new ways to skin a cat but most users wouldn't have the capacity to break into Fort Knox or the capacity to stop government/corporate intrusion & monitoring.

>But is this an actual concern of folks you know?

Yeah, well atleast a lot of them my Godbody brethren. But I think they articulate concerns that a lot of us have.


  

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k_orr
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Fri Jan-26-01 11:28 AM

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41. "RE: K.orr... a better question may be"
In response to Reply # 39


  

          


>come on hon, you know the
>most rabid net users can
>be very computer illerate.

True dat. But they are ahead of the folks who aren't online at all. I've fixed many a "broken" computer in my day...

>In terms of employment, it
>can be an asset if
>developed along with other more
>critical skills.

Typing alone can be useful in and of itself. It just depends on what kind of job and economy you are looking at.

>>Personally, I think it's (internet) a lot
>>like a cell phone. You don't need one, but
>>when you have it, you realize how useful it is.
>>(I"m cell phone free, though).
>
>True. Though, I'm finding that my
>cell is as much of
>a shackle as it is
>an asset - especially at
>work.

hence why i'm still shackle free.

>Computers & the net aren't used
>like any of the other
>gadgets you listed.

Primary usage of the net for most folks
- email
- chat rooms
- discussion boards

If folks can get hype over typing to each other on a motorola 2 way pager, I don't see a big jump between that and coming to Okayplayer. I don't expect to hit the club tomorrow, and folks are breaking out their visors and talking about open source, but it's really just a matter of time.

>They aren't social gathering
>points - like a tv/dvd/video
>game in the living room.

A phone isn't a people node either.

> Computers & the net
>require a different type of
>interaction, dont ya think.

It really depends on what you are doing with the computer. Playing Tetris/solitaire is a seemingly very enjoyable activity of my elders. Why I don't know. But my younger folks love them some playstation. Doing the same thing online is not a big step for them.

Chatting, discussion boards, is really a side step to those big 3 way caller sessions I used to do in high school.

Now if you're talking about hunting down drivers, warez, or learning to be an MSCE online, that's something else. Not many folks are ready for that, and the loners/outsiders in our community will probably be the first to tackle it.

>I think we do, but less
>& less as time goes
>on.

It's strange, but down here I've talked to some brothers who never question the things they do everyday, and i've talked to brothers who think outside the box. But i'm going to have to really collect my thoughts on it though.

>true but aren't we using our
>discretion in this area or
>do you believe that most
>of us just don't know
>better.

I'm not sure what it is. Changing out an alternator is tougher than putting together a computer. I don't think folks really know what is available. Or they get on and can't figure out what the hype is about. That's the main danger I see. Folks not realizing what they could do with access.

>When I didn't have
>the internet, i couldn't wait
>to get it, now sometimes
>I wish I didn't have
>it.

It's no longer a luxury for me. Any kind of economic decision I make now, is thoroughly researched. Maps, product reviews, history, music.. But I know with this respect I'm very much an anomaly, and a product of this town and my experience.

>I wouldn't have mine either.
>But many business in the
>new media industry are notoriously
>wasteful with unproductive workers.

Management's problem, not the net.

Right
>now the entire industry is
>on shaky foundation, and I
>think more layoffs are on
>the way.

It depends on where you are in the online world. If I was working at 360hiphop.com, and I was not an IT or CS person, I would be getting my portfolio together.


>The government is hiring the hacks.

No worse. the quasi/pseudo governments (multinational corporations) are hiring the hacks.

>The brightest "criminals" will always
>come up with new ways
>to skin a cat but
>most users wouldn't have the
>capacity to break into Fort
>Knox or the capacity to
>stop government/corporate intrusion & monitoring.

People adapt. Video cameras that catch speeders are notoriously effective. How come they aren't everywhere? The technology has existed since the last 60's, yet you only find them in a few places. It's a killer ap, definite money maker, yet unused.

>>But is this an actual concern of folks you know?
>
>Yeah, well atleast a lot of
>them my Godbody brethren.
>But I think they articulate
>concerns that a lot of
>us have.

Privacy is the #1 issue, as far as i'm concerned.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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Nettrice
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Fri Jan-26-01 01:45 PM

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42. "It's just a tool!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>You can produce the content, how will you get it to the masses.

The Internet is not going anywhere and, if anything, it will become more accessible in the home and more people will become comfortable using it. However, rather than use the Internet to buy clothes or shoes, people can learn to sell their own products or promote community activities online.

I work for an organization that has been providing access to video/tv production to the community for 17 years. People learn how to use the camcorder to record their own voice and the organization cablecasts the program so the community can view it. It's not commercial TV but it gives people opportunities to reach other neighborhoods througout the city.

The multimedia center aims to do the same thing via the Internet. Sure, community content may not reach millions but that is not the purpose. People will be able to create and distribute community content via a web site to the people that need or want to view it. Plus, if they learn about promotion they can reach a larger audience.


> the net is not a necessity to do any of the things you described. Having the tools isn't enough.....we've always had tools.

The Internet is a reality. People who have it have more options that the people who don't and this is a fact. The Internet is not like TV or film, it's not owned by Hollywood or a small elite group of owners. Right now, it is a vast network and anyone who wants to have a presence on the Net can have one. The Internet is just a tool but the value of the tool depends on how one uses it and (just like any other tool) it can be misused.

Change, adversity, technology are realities. I see technology as a big mountain and people are either climbers, campers or quitters. Climbers use whatever tools it takes to move upward or forward. They use a variety of tools for different tasks, not just one. They master the tools and achieve their goal. Campers reach a point in the climb and they stop climbing or moving forward. They stay in one place and stagnate. They come up with a million excuses for why they can't climb or learn to use new tools. Quitters are just quitters.

Change is not supposed to be good or bad. It is a benchmark of the society or world we live in. Technology has always been around and it has always been at the center of the "divide" issue. I am empowered because I do not limit myself, I learn new tools, push myself and keep climbing. There are people who are poor and will stay poor because they do not seek to learn new tools to do their jobs. They will lose their jobs if they do not learn how to use technology. Technology is not meant to be a savior to people but people can use it to save themselves.


"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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nahymsa
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Sat Jan-27-01 05:21 AM

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43. "This is what I'm saying."
In response to Reply # 42


          

>The Internet is not going anywhere and, if anything, it will
>become more accessible in the home and more people will become >comfortable using it. However, rather than use the
>Internet to buy clothes or shoes, people can learn to
>sell their own products or promote community activities online.

You're missing my point. A successful promotion is about awareness & access on the part of those receiving the promotion. Unless someone tells a person about an event, product, etc. he or she will have to stumble onto that information on their own. I'm still not hearing from anyone HOW once our people gain access to this vast superhighway, they will be made aware information pertinent to their lives. How do people find out about your cable access organization? How do people find out about programs that will air?

>The multimedia center aims to do the same thing via the
>Internet. Sure, community content may not reach millions but
>that is not the purpose. People will be able to create and >distribute community content via a web site to the people that >need or want to view it. Plus, if they learn about promotion >they can reach a larger audience.

And this differs from traditional forms of media in what way? In the end we all know that much of successful promotions revolve around the ability to get the word out & that typically (though there are exceptions) requires loot.

>The Internet is a reality. People who have it have
>more options that the people who don't and this is a fact.

No, that's not a fact. People who have the net have DIFFERENT options at times they are more at times they are less. There are successful businesses & business people who do not use the internet at all.

>The Internet is not like TV or film, it's not owned by
>Hollywood or a small elite group of owners. Right now, it is a >vast network and anyone who wants to have a presence on
>the Net can have one.

The internet is like TV & film in plenty of way. The internet is a vast connection of networks supported, run & paid for by an alliance of private organizations, government agencies, & universities. The Internet society which dictates standards & protocols & shapes the architecture & technilogical direction of the Internet. The Registrars are overseen by a board of directors made up of who? Who controls the high speed backbones that carry traffic across the world?

Yes anyone can put up a page or have a presence but most peole can also list their business in the yellow pages - that doesn't mean that everyone with the book will now you're in there. this idea that that (in & of itself) is grois silly.

>Change, adversity, technology are realities. >Change is not >supposed to be good or bad.

Change is inevitable but the results of those changes can be a bad or good. Im a Parable of the Sower fan, I know change is the only constant in this existence but even in that book, within the context of the changes there were universal unaltering truths & principles.

>Technology has always been around and it has always been at the >center of the "divide" issue.

Our people have always been at the forefront of technilogical, medical, advancement. Its the approach to technology & its uses that makes us different.

>I am empowered because I do not limit myself, I learn new >tools, push myself and keep climbing.

The gun is a tool too, as is nuclear energy. I'm not questioning whether we will have to use new tools. I'm saying that having them in & of itself does not equal empowerment. IE what you say below:

>There are people who are poor and will stay poor because
>they do not seek to learn new tools to do their jobs. They >will lose their jobs if they do not learn how to
>use technology.

Being empowered as a people is NOT us learning to use the net or a computer in order to hold on to jobs that dispensed out by people who are our enemies. That is us being in the same game but learning different rules. Power is controlling the games by DICTATING the rules.

  

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Nettrice
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Sat Jan-27-01 02:05 PM

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44. "RE: This is what I'm saying."
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

>You're missing my point.

Hey, I am not about to argue about what you may perceive to be true or false. I can't cuz' that's your p.o.v. and it is as valid as mine. However, I can speak to my experience and to the success stories of the people I have worked with over the years in this still new field.

People find information if they seek it but they first must learn how to seek it, whether it's cable TV, the Internet, or any type of media outlet. We agree on this point. 90% of the reason I am at this place in my professional career is because I learned to seek what I need or want. No one had to show me how to find resources and this is what I teach to others-- how to empower themselves to seek resources and improve their lives via technology.

People find info and opportunities when they learn to seek it out and where to seek it. It's like picking up the tv guide or getting the schedule of programs from the tv station. It's about surfing, knowing how to use search methods effectively, etc.

For me, it's all about vision and being open. I am young and Black and from a "low-to-moderate-level background", yet, I have never needed to worry about employment or opportunities because I use technology to my advantage. The difference between my life and most of the rest of my family is great and I think that is because I have lots of options, at all times.

I am already a master in the GAME and I have followed my own rules all of my life, including using all of the tools and skills I can.

I play what kids call "Riverbank", I hop from one bank to the other, sometimes landing in the river but I am always in control of where I land. The "river" is much like the "digital divide" and some people never cross that expanse because they never learn how. The can't play the game.

I understand where you are coming from and I agree that there is more to this struggle than learning how to make a web page, owning a computer or having access to the Internet. However, learning to make a web page can be a skill that leads to developing a community network (community building) and that is empowerment.

Peace!

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Vet
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Mon Jan-29-01 08:59 AM

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45. "education"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

if you aren't educated about the advantages and disadvantages of then it is foreign to you. people don't understand the reasoning behind having a computer. they see it as a big calculator or typewriter. the divide is there because people don't know the things that we do about computers. honestly how computer literate would you be if you hadn't have been educated and exposed to them. if i had not have gone to college, i doubt very seriously if i would understand the point of being technological in the know.

the divide does exist but it is not solely because of a lack of funds but in part because a lack of information.

QuOTeS 4 tOoDay...WEEK/DAY... whatever my mood


roads are for journey's, not destinations - chow yun fat (anna & the king)

Am I anti-american? no- the american government is.
*KoalaLove*

"no one tells you about being no artist man, on career day" - jane

...you are the syfl to my ollie
me to don



...she had a body like a cello with legs
i mean the ass was absurd
long neck
smooth skin
pretty face
cookie nipples
eyes wide as her hips
full lips between dimples




  

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FireBrand
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Wed Mar-09-05 10:16 PM

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46. "Revisiting this question in 2005...I think there is a divide."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

The children all seem to want to get online, but the means get more and more expensive.

Does being able to access the net from the library count as online acess?

how fair is it that Jimmy Whitebread can use the PSAT software at home when Jamal the Brother can't?

I think it's more than just online access. It's access to software, it's being availbilty of the machine as well.

I mean, my folks had us online since like 95 but My dad was always using the machine for work.

heck- if I had access like my white friends did a/t/t...My post count would be in the 100G range. lol




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_____________________________

www.northernarc.net

  

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Nettrice
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Thu Mar-10-05 06:48 PM

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53. "Technology is just a tool"
In response to Reply # 46
Thu Mar-10-05 06:50 PM by Nettrice

  

          

Many kids are already bored with the tools because they are not taught how to make best use of them. It's still about access but access + (fill in the blank)...opportunity, "21 century learning", "storytelling", etc.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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nonaime
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Fri Mar-11-05 08:56 PM

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54. "lol 4yrs later, how's the center doing?"
In response to Reply # 53


          

.

  

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FireBrand
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Sat Mar-12-05 01:30 AM

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55. "I was curious too."
In response to Reply # 54


  

          


******************************

_____________________________
Inaug'ral Member of the OkaySports Hall of Fame.

www.ummah1421.com/boards
www.northernarc.net

  

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Nettrice
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Sat Mar-12-05 10:57 AM

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56. "It's still there, still open"
In response to Reply # 54
Sat Mar-12-05 11:00 AM by Nettrice

  

          

It's part of a PEG/cable access TV center and mostly controlled through the Mayor's office. The guys working for the Mayor decided a year ago that youth training and multimedia was not a priority which pissed off one of the other big funders (and me). I was put in a difficult position as a director and I already had one foot in the door as college faculty, so I took DAY with me and continued providing training and resources to other centers in the city and elsewhere.

Last weekend I paid the folks at the center a visit. They are about to get a bunch of Mac G5s and video equipment so the members can produce programming for the public access TV channel.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Whateva
Member since Jul 07th 2003
4637 posts
Thu Mar-10-05 01:15 AM

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47. "Anti-intellectualism?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

You're looking too deep into this. The computer is in a lot of homes, but a lot kids have libraries in their nieghborhoods and schools where they can get a lot of stuff done on-line. I don't see it as a blacks shying away from intelligence problem.

We don't have to prove we're mentally fit. Ever!

That's sick and very unnatural.

Power is making a group of people who you vehemently loathe, and have opressed for centuries, think they have to constantly prove to you that they are not apes while in your presence.

***************************************
"Science" and Religion are the two most dangerous weapons of ideology. See holocaust.

Why do "scientists" constantly produce statistics based on "race", a social construct?

  

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k_orr
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Thu Mar-10-05 02:12 AM

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48. "this post is 4 years old"
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

this is when I posted it Wed Jan-24-01 11:51 AM

ol boy shoulda posted a new topic, and linked this one.

these fucking boards suck now.

  

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Whateva
Member since Jul 07th 2003
4637 posts
Thu Mar-10-05 10:15 AM

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51. "Hooooly shit."
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

This archive shit needs to stop. Sorry about that.

***************************************
"Science" and Religion are the two most dangerous weapons of ideology. See holocaust.

Why do "scientists" constantly produce statistics based on "race", a social construct?

  

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FireBrand
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Thu Mar-10-05 10:22 AM

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52. "Yeah...I though about that"
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

After reading the entire thing thru, but I decided that it was interesting to see how debated could have changed- and I've linked old debates before and noone read 'em.

so i upped it. if noone wants to bite, then they won't but at least it's available.
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nahymsa
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Thu Mar-10-05 09:41 AM

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49. "What's particularly intellectual about being online?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

It has its benefits but it also has its negatives.

Internet access is only beneficial if the person is coming from the mindstate of using it as a tool instead of a plaything. A bunch of cats trying to get ass on black planet is not a positive development. I know people who use their access solely to read allhiphop.com.

What is the great need for everyone to have internet access? Are other ways of getting information simply invalid these days? How is not having access to the information superhighway limiting black people?

  

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nahymsa
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Thu Mar-10-05 09:43 AM

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50. "WHOAH...there are 2 Nahymsa's at this site"
In response to Reply # 49


          

That's weird.

  

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