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DivineVersatile
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5491 posts
Thu Jun-08-00 11:15 AM

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"N-I-G-G-E-R (a case study)"


  

          

No other word in the english vocabulary can elicit as much emotion. No phrase is deeper ingrained in the Negro consciousness. From 'you my nigga' to 'die niggers'...you can't help but feel it, either for or against.

Uncomfortable when you hear "nigga" in a public place? When your man calls you "his nigga" is it cool? All open for discussion here.

My Humble Theory:

Never in the history of this world has another MASS of people been completely STRIPPED and DISASSOCIATED with its history. As a result, I offer that we as a people are a construct of the American psyche. We have no identity...and "nigger" is the only word we can identify with consistently. Think about it. We've gone from "negro" to "black" to "Afro-American" to "African-American" to "Nubians" etc, etc. The only consistent throught all of these aliases??? "Nigger". The only thing that conjures some sort of historical reference??? "Nigger" Why else would we endear ourselves with such a derogatory name? Maybe because it is the only common thing all of us have...that word...and its various intentions.

Gimme ya thoughts.

The Infamous DVSJ

*************************
MY VERY OWN HIPPIDY-HOP! I'M GOING TO LOVE YOU AND PLAY WITH YOU FOR EVER AND EVER!!!

Elmyra....the choice of a new generation

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
tight post
Jun 08th 2000
1
Well, I'll comment
Shaquan
Jun 08th 2000
2
RE: Well, I'll comment 2
ILLY9
Jun 08th 2000
3
I simply disagree
KoalaLove
Jun 09th 2000
4
Koala, while you have a point...
Jun 09th 2000
16
      RE: Koala, while you have a point...
KoalaLove
Jun 09th 2000
17
           But the main reason for using "black" was
Jun 09th 2000
23
           Not necessarily true
KoalaLove
Jun 12th 2000
30
                I have studied the Black power movement
Jun 12th 2000
33
                     right but...
KoalaLove
Jun 12th 2000
34
                          but you get the point Koala....why the argument?
Jun 12th 2000
36
                               RE: but you get the point Koala....why the argument?
KoalaLove
Jun 12th 2000
38
                                    skin color is at the heart of the term "black"
Jun 12th 2000
43
                                         RE: skin color is at the heart of the term
KoalaLove
Jun 12th 2000
44
           Black was/is a default term...
Jun 11th 2000
26
                RE: Black was/is a default term...
KoalaLove
Jun 12th 2000
31
I think K is right
Jun 09th 2000
5
only people can empower a word....
Jun 09th 2000
6
Thats some good SHIT!
KoalaLove
Jun 09th 2000
7
      knew i was invitin' some shitty replies.....
Jun 09th 2000
8
           which stereotypes
KoalaLove
Jun 09th 2000
9
                RE: which stereotypes
Jun 09th 2000
10
                     RE: which stereotypes
KoalaLove
Jun 09th 2000
11
                          RE: which stereotypes
Shaquan
Jun 09th 2000
12
An e-mail I got
Jun 09th 2000
13
I am so lovin that webpage....
Jun 09th 2000
14
i saw that one...
Jun 09th 2000
15
thanks for sharing!
Jun 09th 2000
19
I just watched the animated short.
Jun 09th 2000
18
word
KoalaLove
Jun 09th 2000
20
Koala, please "we" are using the phrase just like white people
Jun 09th 2000
22
whew!
Jun 12th 2000
37
      But where do you draw the line?
KoalaLove
Jun 12th 2000
40
      I think WE NEED a line
Jun 12th 2000
45
           RE: I think WE NEED a line
KoalaLove
Jun 12th 2000
46
                RE: I think WE NEED a line
Jun 12th 2000
47
                     RE: I think WE NEED a line
KoalaLove
Jun 12th 2000
48
                     oh yeah
KoalaLove
Jun 12th 2000
49
                          Thanks, K!
Jun 13th 2000
50
      its something to consider
Jun 13th 2000
53
why is it.......?
Jun 09th 2000
24
RE: why is it.......?
Jun 11th 2000
25
Dont you see!
KoalaLove
Jun 12th 2000
32
K, talk with me
Jun 12th 2000
35
      RE: K, talk with me
KoalaLove
Jun 12th 2000
39
      ma...can we afford a "nigga" like you?
Jun 13th 2000
52
           RE: ma...can we afford a
Jun 13th 2000
54
                so if I called you a nigga, its not a problem
Jun 13th 2000
55
                     Who said that??
KoalaLove
Jun 13th 2000
56
                     RE: so if I called you a nigga, its not a problem
Jun 13th 2000
57
                          RE: so if I called you a nigga, its not a problem
KoalaLove
Jun 13th 2000
58
                               K, if that's the ONLY problem you see
Jun 13th 2000
59
                                    RE: K, if that's the ONLY problem you see
KoalaLove
Jun 13th 2000
60
                                         RE: K, if that's the ONLY problem you see
Jun 13th 2000
61
                                              RE: K, if that's the ONLY problem you see
KoalaLove
Jun 13th 2000
62
                                                   NuShooz and Koala...sittin in a tree....
Jun 13th 2000
63
                                                        Back Down?
Jun 14th 2000
65
Adolph's character was supposed to be offensive
Jun 09th 2000
21
Perception
Jun 11th 2000
27
I'll take it from the hip hop view..
Jun 11th 2000
28
Re:"Dead the word"
Jun 11th 2000
29
RE: N-I-G-G-E-R (a case study)
Maqoma
Jun 12th 2000
41
just wanted to say...
Jun 12th 2000
42
u're mouth shut?
Jun 13th 2000
51
Hey, K! I'm down here...
Jun 14th 2000
64
Back in the trenches
KoalaLove
Jun 14th 2000
66
Lemme try this
Jun 14th 2000
69
      RE: Lemme try this
KoalaLove
Jun 14th 2000
70
           MY issue vs YOURS
Jun 14th 2000
73
                RE: MY issue vs YOURS
KoalaLove
Jun 14th 2000
76
                Besides...
KoalaLove
Jun 14th 2000
77
                     Word...how is a drug dealer different than the US Government?
Jun 15th 2000
86
                          Just goes to show ya
KoalaLove
Jun 15th 2000
87
                          KoalaLove and Nahymsa....
Phraktal
Jun 15th 2000
88
ma...you are deliberately missing the point.
Jun 14th 2000
67
      Hold Up
KoalaLove
Jun 14th 2000
68
      Let's try this
Jun 14th 2000
71
           What would you have done Shooz?
KoalaLove
Jun 14th 2000
72
           RE: What would you have done Shooz?
Jun 14th 2000
74
                RE: What would you have done Shooz?
KoalaLove
Jun 14th 2000
75
                     RE: What would you have done Shooz?
Jun 14th 2000
78
                          RE: What would you have done Shooz?
KoalaLove
Jun 14th 2000
79
                          RE: What would you have done Shooz?
Jun 15th 2000
89
                               Yuck
KoalaLove
Jun 15th 2000
91
                          are you equating the government with a religious institution
Jun 15th 2000
81
                               RE: are you equating the government with a religious institution
KoalaLove
Jun 15th 2000
82
                               She knows that the government sold drugs for arms with Iran Contra
Jun 15th 2000
84
                                    Dammit Nah
KoalaLove
Jun 15th 2000
85
                               RE: are you equating the government with a religious institution
Jun 15th 2000
90
                                    But wait
KoalaLove
Jun 15th 2000
92
                                    K (and your band of happy people)
Jun 15th 2000
93
                                         nobody HAS to pay taxes..that is a fact
Jun 15th 2000
95
                                    umm..what the point of an example
Jun 15th 2000
94
           RE: Let's try this
Jun 15th 2000
83
Wow, tax evasion is related to "nigger"
Wise_7
Jun 14th 2000
80
ironic....
nakeisha
Jun 15th 2000
96
someone beat me to the webpage...
nakeisha
Jun 15th 2000
97

TinkyWinky
Charter member
2726 posts
Thu Jun-08-00 11:56 AM

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1. "tight post"
In response to Reply # 0


          

and interesting theory? where's k-love to attack it, lol? as a "white" kid (that's in quotes to keep HIM off my back) i don't feel i can necessarily comment outright, but this is a good thread.

http://www.thehungersite.com

"This is OUR place. You want the walls to be orange get a brush..."
--BooDah

Stevelover and the purple Tubber: confusing freestyle suckas into a three-count pin

"I'm SICK, and i'm TIRED, of your WHINING, COMPLAINING, and BITCHING, and MOANING! BOO-FUCKIN-HOO!"
--Ian Mackaye (Minor Threat)

"Where the F*CK is my purse icon??????"

:::::::::::::
"And I know what the fuck an option quarterback is. He's the black QB under six feet that ends up being converted to wide receiver once he's selected on day two of the NFL draft because he can't hit the ocean from the edge of a boat."

--

  

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Shaquan

Thu Jun-08-00 03:42 PM

  
2. "Well, I'll comment"
In response to Reply # 0


          

y'know, since I'm BLACK and all *YUK YUK YUK YUK!!!!!*

DV, that was a very good analysis of "nigger."
That's very true, all throughout history and our generations of being in America, no other term or classification has stuck with us like "nigger" has.
We were colored, negro, black, Afro-American, African American, nubians, gods, earth, nuwaubian, yada yada yada.
However, we always remembered "nigger".
Whether it's all for the love ("Where my niggas at?!"), or for the dehumanizing ("niggers and flies, which do I despise, niggers or flies?"), it holds a very pivotal and yet subtle catalyst in our lives.

Well, I guess the only conclusion I have is.... just as N.W.A., "I'ma be a nigger fo life."

Everybody, sing with me
"IIIIIIII'ma nigga, she's a nigga, he's a nigga, we all niggas, so wouldn't you like to be a nigga toooooo!"- Easy E. (RIP Eric Wright)

  

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ILLY9

Thu Jun-08-00 08:07 PM

  
3. "RE: Well, I'll comment 2"
In response to Reply # 2


          

Great post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Speaking from a "white" perspective, I think that it may be a result of being plucked from your home land in such a primitive time. By that I mean record keeping was not really what it is today, and if you've ever needed some records from a hospital or city hall, you know things get lost all the time. Here's the segue. For the melanin impaired, the stereotypes and slurs have usually been about where their ancestors could be found, ie Polack, Mick, Dego, etc.(spelling?-who really cares though) Since the national identity of the African brothers and sisters is not as readily available or known, due to things such as the slave trade, actual naionality is unknown in most cases. I think that NIGGER/NIGGA is sort of a default title. Whether or not it's a positive or negative word at this point in history, in my opinion is based on the context it's being used. That's my take, at least for now. I'll have to give it some more thought. 1nce again, beautiful incite.

  

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KoalaLove

Fri Jun-09-00 02:50 AM

  
4. "I simply disagree"
In response to Reply # 0


          

"We've gone from "negro" to "black" to "Afro-American" to "African-American" to "Nubians" etc, etc. The only consistent throught all of these aliases??? "Nigger"."

Thats just not true- what about Black, or Brother. Just because the word nigger may be more controversial doesnt mean its more prevalent. In fact I think Black has it beat in terms of colloquial use- maybe not in Hip Hop music but there's more to us than Hip Hop.

We banded around this word because our people have never been afraid to consider themselves as human beings- be they ignorant or silly or materialistic or anything. The only way it was considered negatively was because it was cast down by a people who thought themselves further evolved than anyone else on the planet- since we no longer hold that ideology to be true then there's not much ferocity left in the word- especially since our people hae embraced it for so long and turned the tides on it so effectively.

K

  

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DivineVersatile
Charter member
5491 posts
Fri Jun-09-00 08:11 AM

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16. "Koala, while you have a point..."
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

The ferocity of this word is still there. Imagine being in public place with a mix of cultures, and you (in cosmopolitan mode) hearing a pair of brothers toss "nigga" back and forth. Whether or not you condone it...doesn't the room seem a little more tense?

I'm not saying that Black isn't prevalent. But Black is a color...it has no historical reference. The question remains...why endear "nigger" when it was used so maliciously?? Are we still trying to erase the scars?

The Infamous DVSJ

*************************
MY VERY OWN HIPPIDY-HOP! I'M GOING TO LOVE YOU AND PLAY WITH YOU FOR EVER AND EVER!!!

Elmyra....the choice of a new generation

  

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KoalaLove

Fri Jun-09-00 08:23 AM

  
17. "RE: Koala, while you have a point..."
In response to Reply # 16


          

>The ferocity of this word is
>still there. Imagine being in
>public place with a mix
>of cultures, and you (in
>cosmopolitan mode) hearing a pair
>of brothers toss "nigga" back
>and forth. Whether or not
>you condone it...doesn't the room
>seem a little more tense?

When you walk into a room of white people and cough loudly dont you feel that same tension? Again I dispute the idea that we should conduct ourselves in a fashion that is somehow approved of by the people around us.

Why should I live by how they see me- Fuck who they think we are they have a hard enough time admitting who they are to themselves.

>I'm not saying that Black isn't
>prevalent. But Black is a
>color...it has no historical reference.
>The question remains...why endear "nigger"
>when it was used so
>maliciously?? Are we still trying
>to erase the scars?

I beg to differ- I dont think alot of you realize that the ternm Black extended way beyond any signifier of race or color. It was a movement, evoking terms like Nation time, and Black Power, and Black Pride- it brought us such movements as the Black panther party and had james tellin us to say it loud - "IM BLACK AND IM PROUD", "Black is Beautiful". Anybody remember the afro pics with teh Black fist- how bout the one where the handles were red BLACK and green.

Please understand that there is a great deal of history signified by the term Black. The Black nationalist flag itself is Red Black and Green- certainly you're all aware of what the Black stands for.


K

  

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nahymsa
Charter member
1734 posts
Fri Jun-09-00 12:54 PM

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23. "But the main reason for using "black" was"
In response to Reply # 17


          

because of skin color. You can't get around that otherwise we'd have been saying "im green & I'm proud" and that didn't and wouldn't happen.

  

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KoalaLove

Mon Jun-12-00 02:31 AM

  
30. "Not necessarily true"
In response to Reply # 23


          

You must research the Black power movement. It may have been some refernce to the color of our skin in a colloquial sense but it also referred to several different levels of awareness and social protest.

We were supposedly negroes which stemmed from the spanish version of the word for Black- as such the black Power movement choose Black to signify that we were something previous to what we were redefined as.

Black is equated to darkness- the night- not necessarily something scary or ominous but something unseen- unexposed by light (much like the X which represented the tribe of shabazz- a signifier of unknown origins). Black then became a signifier of a common people who shared a history and place of origin but for all contemporary intents and purposes that history was hidden or Black.

Furthermore previous to the Black power movement we were colored, or niggers, or negroes. As the oppressor was White Black nationalists chose terminology that would counter the presumption that whites were superior- in that Black is a paralel term.

We were not offered that paralel until we demanded it.

(this form is all jacked i wodner if this will work)

bottom line- we call ourselves Black for more reasons than the color of our skin. To disregard the history and culture behind just cuz you (not you nah- whoever) dont know it is not fair.

K

  

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nahymsa
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1734 posts
Mon Jun-12-00 04:15 AM

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33. "I have studied the Black power movement"
In response to Reply # 30


          

Black in and of itself was most definetly a reference to our complexion which in turn refered our cultural experience and social situation in america.

We would not have that same social situation if we were not black skinned. That can't be escaped.

  

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KoalaLove

Mon Jun-12-00 04:36 AM

  
34. "right but..."
In response to Reply # 33


          

To take only a part of what the word references and then conclude that it bears no historical merit or significance beyond the color of our skin is tragically short sited.

In our culture- Black means a whole lot more than the color of our skin- and never meant that in the first place as we are NOT Black skinned people. It is a common misconception that Black refers to our skin color but thats not necessarily the intention of the word- it is also meant to reference our physcial features- which arent necessarily designated by color but by form.

Our hair is naturally Black- but when I say Black hair- do i just mean the color? When i say Black dick (pardon me- but im sure you get my point) or black ass- Im not talking about the color of those items- Im talking about the customary form.

the first inception of the term Black was to counter the term White which also does not refer to skin color- they both refer to presumed categories of race.

K


  

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nahymsa
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1734 posts
Mon Jun-12-00 05:19 AM

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36. "but you get the point Koala....why the argument?"
In response to Reply # 34


          

Black clearly refers to black characteristics, most prominent of which is skin shade. Whether the culture exists because of the skin or the skin because of the culture is irrelevant.

Obviously we are not literally black skinned people but in comparision to those that aren't literally white skinned people we are. All words are just symbols for intent and the intent is clear....we are the darkest of the mankind group.

There is a difference btwn cultural "blackness" and physical manifestations of blackness..a distinction that does not go unnoticed in a society which is plagued by colorism.

You can not get around the fact that we would not be using the term "black" if we were not dark brown skinned people. Period. Had we been taino/Aztec looking people in the same situation...we would not have called ourselves "black".

  

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KoalaLove

Mon Jun-12-00 05:29 AM

  
38. "RE: but you get the point Koala....why the argument?"
In response to Reply # 36


          

>Black clearly refers to black characteristics,
>most prominent of which is
>skin shade. Whether the
>culture exists because of the
>skin or the skin because
>of the culture is irrelevant.

Not true- whether the culture exist because of teh skin or vice versa is the very premise we're debating. Furthermore you say "Black clearly refers to black characteristics, most prominent of which is skin shade" but skin shades among Blacks is highly diverse as such the term Black must refer to different things and not succintly to skin color as it doesnt hold much weight on that premise- we're not all Black skinned, we're not even all brown skinned- but we are still Black.

The point Im trying to make is that we didnt call ourselves Black because of the color of our skin not even the commanlity that we were dark- we called ourselves that to offset a society that presumed that its dominant people were white.

Im not getting around the idea that we called ourselves Black because of our skin pigment Im explaining that thats not really the chronology of what happened. When we called ourselves Octaroon and Quadroon- it was then that we were labelling ourselves as signified by our skin color. the term Black was provided as a culture to subscribe to- it didnt succinctly refer to our color cuz all the times we had done so it amounted to further division amongst our people (high yellow, mocha, red bone- these terms didnt foster unity).

Had it not been for the term Black - that refered not to skin color but a common struggle in the midst of a racist society- we would have continued in divisions made apparent by our skin color. Huey and malcolm werent accepted as a yellow muhfuckas they were accepted as Black men.

K

  

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nahymsa
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1734 posts
Mon Jun-12-00 08:00 AM

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43. "skin color is at the heart of the term "black""
In response to Reply # 38


          

If they wanted to create a generic term that wouldn't have attachment to color of any kind, they could have. The term black in and of itself is no different than octoroon or quadroon - which could've been used to. Many biracial children don't feel the term "black" fosters unity either.

Why black? Because at the heart of what all this is about is the darkest skinned black person NOT the lightest. Had our culture been exactly like those of various whites, that distinction still remains.

Everyone else is included because we had no choice otherwise, the one drop rule is a white creation, not a "black" one. Across the diaspora, you take Mariah Carey around & nobody is going to recognize her as a black person, its preposterous. In various other societies (who've had similar slave/oppression experience) there is a "mulatto" caste, ie South Africa. The fact is even in America, the darkest skinned among us are the majority of our numbers. There wouldn't have been a "black" movement if we all could've passed. And whatever movement we developed wouldn't been called a "black" one if we all could've passed. At the heart of the term is reference to complexion.

And Malcolm X (red) married Betty (ebony) in part because he wanted to have beautiful "black" babies (he said it). Even he understood that the most basic level it was about the skin we're in.


  

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KoalaLove

Mon Jun-12-00 08:14 AM

  
44. "RE: skin color is at the heart of the term"
In response to Reply # 43


          

>If they wanted to create a
>generic term that wouldn't have
>attachment to color of any
>kind, they could have.

they did- thats what Im saying. None of us had black skin- that was the point. They could have called it brown pride- they didnt- they chose Black specifically to counter the ideology of White.

>The term black in and
>of itself is no different
>than octoroon or quadroon -
>which could've been used to.
>Many biracial children don't feel
>the term "black" fosters unity
>either.

Of course that term is different- none of us have actual black skin- it was meant to signify something beyond the skin. If it wasnt any different then why didnt they use Brown- it would have been more obvious and physically correct.

>Why black? Because at the
>heart of what all this
>is about is the darkest
>skinned black person NOT the
>lightest. Had our culture
>been exactly like those of
>various whites, that distinction still
>remains.

Wait huh? Are you saying blackness is gauged or somehow in regards to the darker pigments of skin?
i dont know if im understanding what you're saying here.

>Everyone else is included because we
>had no choice otherwise, the
>one drop rule is a
>white creation, not a "black"
>one. Across the diaspora, you
>take Mariah Carey around &
>nobody is going to recognize
>her as a black person,
>its preposterous. In various other
>societies (who've had similar slave/oppression
>experience) there is a "mulatto"
>caste, ie South Africa.
>The fact is even in
>America, the darkest skinned among
>us are the majority of
>our numbers. There wouldn't
>have been a "black" movement
>if we all could've passed.
>And whatever movement we developed
>wouldn't been called a "black"
>one if we all could've
>passed. At the heart of
>the term is reference to
>complexion.

SAY WHAT!? Malcom X wasnt dark skinned neither was Huey Newton, Neither was Amiri Baraka, Ron Carenga. Stokely- yes but thats a different story. These are the men that mitigated these philosophies to say they were making reference to complexion is ludicrous cuz they were all yellow.

>And Malcolm X (red) married Betty
>(ebony) in part because he
>wanted to have beautiful "black"
>babies (he said it). Even
>he understood that the most
>basic level it was about
>the skin we're in.

BUT MALCOLM WAS RED! i think we're talking about two different things- im commenting on the sociological term as Black not necessarily the colloquial derivations of it. the nationalist teachings that established the term Black are very much rooted in our history and only colloquially do they regard our skin much less our complexion.

K

  

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DivineVersatile
Charter member
5491 posts
Sun Jun-11-00 11:29 AM

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26. "Black was/is a default term..."
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

When you have no direct connection to your homeland, no since of your original history and culture...what is left?

Your appearance, that's what.

I know that this argument can be used and applied to "black". Yes, black panthers, yes, black power, yes, black is beautiful...yes, yes, yes. But I don't hear brothers walking around like "Whassup, black" as much as I do "Whassup, nigga?" "Black" is being used in almost every hip-hop song ever created. "Black" leaves no residual feeling of "WHAT THE FUCK ARE THEY SAYING THAT FOR?"

You misunderstand me...I don't give a damn what people think about our language. My thing is that "nigger" or "nigga" has a whole lot of shit attached to it. I personally use "nigga" too much. But this is how we are identifying ourselves. It seems the further time goes along, the less like "blacks" we act and the more like "niggers" we seem.

But this is a debate...you are entitled to ya opinion.

The Infamous DVSJ

*************************
MY VERY OWN HIPPIDY-HOP! I'M GOING TO LOVE YOU AND PLAY WITH YOU FOR EVER AND EVER!!!

Elmyra....the choice of a new generation

  

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KoalaLove

Mon Jun-12-00 02:39 AM

  
31. "RE: Black was/is a default term..."
In response to Reply # 26


          

>When you have no direct connection
>to your homeland, no since
>of your original history and
>culture...what is left?

>Your appearance, that's what.

But we do have a connection to our homeland and a sense of our original history and culture. so whats your point?

>I know that this argument can
>be used and applied to
>"black". Yes, black panthers, yes,
>black power, yes, black is
>beautiful...yes, yes, yes. But I
>don't hear brothers walking around
>like "Whassup, black" as much
>as I do "Whassup, nigga?"

Thats cuz you're talking about a very limited scope of Black people- There are still a great number of people who use Black, some who use Brother, Some use Dun. It may be more prevalent in Hip Hop but Hip Hop isnt nearly representative of all Black people.

>You misunderstand me...I don't give a
>damn what people think about
>our language. My thing is
>that "nigger" or "nigga" has
>a whole lot of shit
>attached to it. I personally
>use "nigga" too much. But
>this is how we are
>identifying ourselves. It seems the
>further time goes along, the
>less like "blacks" we act
>and the more like "niggers"
>we seem.

And since we as Blacks have added a whole lot of other things to the word's meaning where exactly can you draw the line and say being Black and being niggas are mutually exclusive- where do you draw the line and say that being a nigger is bad?

Dont just presume its bad cuz they told you so. Look at the life of a nigga- check the social pressures that mitigate such circumstances. Is it the nigger thats wrong or the system that leaves a nigga very few alternatives?

K



  

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nushooz
Member since Nov 05th 2002
14 posts
Fri Jun-09-00 04:05 AM

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5. "I think K is right"
In response to Reply # 0


          

(I can hardly beleive it myself)

The conotation of "nigga" at this point in history is not the same as it was when it was put out there - to dehumanize us (us Black folx) and to transcend them.

I for one, normally use the word in negative ways... like in expressing my love for Black people and dislike for Niggaz.

And it is overused more so in some generes than others. But that hardly makes it the mainstay or vehicle of linkage to identification that is postulated here.

Live from the Shoe Sto'
NuShooz
I,I, I Can't Wait!

Live from the Shoe Sto, the Mall and NOW the courtroom


I, I, I Can't Wait?
U've waited long enuff!

  

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StirsDsoul
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Fri Jun-09-00 04:25 AM

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6. "only people can empower a word...."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


....and we fail to see that as a people by using the word we not only show some degree of acceptance...but on some level agree with its definition traditional or otherwise...why do you think it so easily lends itself to negative commentary and imagery????
I mean I could substitute shit for practically any word in the english language....but how many positive ways can I use it....??

  

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KoalaLove

Fri Jun-09-00 04:58 AM

  
7. "Thats some good SHIT!"
In response to Reply # 6


          

>
>....and we fail to see that
>as a people by using
>the word we not only
>show some degree of acceptance...but
>on some level agree with
>its definition traditional or otherwise...why
>do you think it so
>easily lends itself to negative
>commentary and imagery????

It lends itself to negative commentary and imagery in some contexts but in others it quite simply doesnt. People who use it in any fashion dont necessarily agree with its intended meaning. (just like people who dont boycott the confederate flag- dont necessarily approve of it- right shooz). its definition is one thing and can mean several other things that dont necessarily coincide with the original etymology- just as fag can mean a bundle of sticks, a cigarette or a gay man- do fags on some level agree that they are a bundle of sticks?

> I mean I could
>substitute shit for practically any
>word in the english language....but
>how many positive ways can
>I use it....??

I can think of quite a few- mostly centering around smoking shit and talking shit. But in either case sometimes it IS some good shit- so its not all negative.

Shit

K

  

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StirsDsoul
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Fri Jun-09-00 05:42 AM

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8. "knew i was invitin' some shitty replies....."
In response to Reply # 7


  

          


Anyway.....I hear you...it may not apply universally but, it's not so much the negative connotation that the word frequently implies...that is harmful...it is the manner in which we use it to reinforce our own stereotypes....I mean using it as a term of of "endearment"I don't necessarily agree with either....but, far too often "nigga" is used to as a concession to ignorance, laziness,etc......."niggas always...","niggas ain't shit".....
Now as much as some of us adhere to the "new
equal opportunity/affirmative action/rainbow coalition definition of the word" it always to me that we're referring to godd ole' black folk whenever I hear it.....

  

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KoalaLove

Fri Jun-09-00 05:54 AM

  
9. "which stereotypes"
In response to Reply # 8


          

"it is the manner in which we use it to reinforce our own stereotypes...."

But how many of those stereotypes are reinforced by our everyday actions. As i always say of stereotypes- If I convinced the world that fucking was all you were capable of- would you stop fucking just to prove me wrong?

K

  

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StirsDsoul
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Fri Jun-09-00 06:18 AM

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10. "RE: which stereotypes"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

>"it is the manner in which
>we use it to reinforce
>our own stereotypes...."
>
>But how many of those stereotypes
>are reinforced by our everyday
>actions. As i always say
>of stereotypes- If I convinced
>the world that fucking was
>all you were capable of-
>would you stop fucking just
>to prove me wrong?
>Exactly....but it then becomes a cycle...vicious or otherwise..individuals have the the power to choose but still succumb to peer,environmental influences etc....but before I take action what role does image play..?
The word nigga identifies race as a common bond..indicating that we are incapable of rising above the stereotypical behavior
>



  

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KoalaLove

Fri Jun-09-00 06:27 AM

  
11. "RE: which stereotypes"
In response to Reply # 10


          

But once we prove that we are capable are we allowed to go about our lives however we see fit? Or do we have to perpetually live beyond that which society presumes we are- is that fair.

I dont understand the idea of considering the image before you allow yourself and others the self determination of living as they see fit. "before I take actionwhat role does image play..?" in a society where that image varies and quite frequently is borne by only a small portion of substantiating evidence- theres no telling what role image plays. it depends on who's seeing that image and what they already think- surely we're not supposed accountable to all that.

If we're to use a society that uses racial classifcations that demean us implicitly how will we ever live beyond the cycle of overcompensating for however they see us- they see us as less than human so we have to somehow be more than human to make up for it? id much rather focus our attentions on how we are rather than how we should be- especially if how they see us is going to be considered as a standard of reference.

K

  

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Shaquan

Fri Jun-09-00 07:27 AM

  
12. "RE: which stereotypes"
In response to Reply # 11


          


>If we're to use a society
>that uses racial classifcations that
>demean us implicitly how will
>we ever live beyond the
>cycle of overcompensating for however
>they see us- they see
>us as less than human
>so we have to somehow
>be more than human to
>make up for it? id
>much rather focus our attentions
>on how we are rather
>than how we should be-
>especially if how they see
>us is going to be
>considered as a standard of
>reference.
>
>K

Well, agreed! I'm sick and tired of hearing my elders say to me "now, Shaquan, you have to work twice as hard as the White man and be on your Ps and Qs. Don't ever give them a reason to think that we're stupid people."
That's bullshit! Why should I stop being the whole complex being that I am just because some White people want to use stereotypes against me?

  

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KDfromWestP
Charter member
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Fri Jun-09-00 07:40 AM

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13. "An e-mail I got"
In response to Reply # 0


          

http://www.seestudio.com/the_n_word.html


discuss.

  

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BooDaah
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Fri Jun-09-00 07:52 AM

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14. "I am so lovin that webpage...."
In response to Reply # 13


          

...because it gives historical reference to the term.

As a special added treat to those who have read this:

BooDaah's definition of a Nigga:
"One who will do whatever he has to do to succeed at any given moment without respect or regard to the safety, feelings, or interests of anyone other than self."

Frankly, I think we all have a little of the above in us. If you push my buttons you may just get a taste of just how "niggerish" I can be. But at the same time (to me) it is only a VERRRRRY small part of what I am. I try to have compassion for my place in the world around me and I sincerely hate to see others become consumed by their "inner nigga". Why don't I want you to define me as such? Because I'm bigger than that, and WON'T allow the anyone beyond God to define what it is I shall be.

That's just my 2 cents.


------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah
OkayActivist Moderator

Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
step 1. inform yourself
step 2. inform others
step 3. discuss the problem
step 4. DISCUSS SOLUTIONS
step 5. EXECUTE SOLUTIONS
step 6. evaluate how well the solution worked
step 7. start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html

  

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wbgirl
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5929 posts
Fri Jun-09-00 07:55 AM

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15. "i saw that one..."
In response to Reply # 13


          

i'm a sucker for timelines..

~~wbg~~

Chicago 2001...'nuff said!

http://www.breastcancer3day.org

The following quotes are brought to you by Okaydebauchery:

"eff a 'smack my ass' tee...we need a 'okaytitties' tee!"--me
"i'm suckin' on SOMETHIN'!"--leroy b.
"i like my mantitty...please don't pinch it!"--TRoyal


~~wbg~~
"I pray sometimes to keep my head together,
because you can use prayer however you want.
There are no rules one way or the other."
--Jami Attenberg

http://helpcde.blogspot.com
http://queeneulalia.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/queeneulalia

  

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nushooz
Member since Nov 05th 2002
14 posts
Fri Jun-09-00 08:45 AM

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19. "thanks for sharing!"
In response to Reply # 13


          

I,I, I Can't Wait!

Live from the Shoe Sto, the Mall and NOW the courtroom


I, I, I Can't Wait?
U've waited long enuff!

  

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nushooz
Member since Nov 05th 2002
14 posts
Fri Jun-09-00 08:44 AM

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18. "I just watched the animated short."
In response to Reply # 0


          

Whew! My mind is blown and my heart is HEAVY.

BUT:
Do yall remember A Soilders Story? Member' that part where Adolf ?'s character, the sargent that was killed, goes to the cell of the young man that is incarcerated? He says to him that "the Negro race can't afford niggas like you anymore...." Do yall remember that?

That was a turning point for me and my use of the word. At that point it signified just that - people of color that our race of people can't afford.

Talk with me, My Conscious Brahs and Sistahs!

Live
Nu
I,I, I Can't Wait!

Live from the Shoe Sto, the Mall and NOW the courtroom


I, I, I Can't Wait?
U've waited long enuff!

  

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KoalaLove

Fri Jun-09-00 09:28 AM

  
20. "word"
In response to Reply # 18


          

"At that point it signified just that - people of color that our race of people can't afford."

I just cant abide by the idea that there are people among us that our community cant "afford" and i cant abide by a definition that is offered by a nazi as if it is somehow more true than the sentiments that Blacks have charged that word with.

It bothers me that we're so against the word and what it has meant but we're not willing to honor the changes that blacks have brought to the meaning- we only conclude that we shouldnt say it anymore based on evidence that it somehow damages us even further even though nobody ever tells us how.

If you stop using it on the grounds that it means what they say and not what we say are we actually demonstrating that we're more than the word prescribes or not intelligent enough to provide that it means something else.

K

  

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nahymsa
Charter member
1734 posts
Fri Jun-09-00 12:52 PM

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22. "Koala, please "we" are using the phrase just like white people"
In response to Reply # 20


          

When blacks talk about somebody acting like a "nigga" we limit that to US and we all know it. Let's be real, we do not automatically think of a WHITE ignorant, criminal, poor (yeah sometimes we use it in that way too), person as a nigga.

While we have twisted that phrase into a word that can be used as a term of endearment, the reason why that happens is because of the bond created by the original racism INHERENT in the term. When you say "that's my nigga" to another black man there are are a bunch of historical references at work including the fact that we (as black people) are bonded together in this struggle against THEM (no matter different we are from each other).

The jive talking pimp on the corner is as much of a "nigga" as the Harvard educated entreprenaur. And we can't ever forget that. THAT was the point of August's play. When the investigator asks (paraphase) "who gives you the right to be judge & jury of what kind of blacks are allowed to exist" that was the moral. The Investigating Major (?I forgot his rank) sanctioned the imprisonment and basically EXECUTED another black man because HE thought that brotha was too "niggerish" and embarassment to the black race. Then the other soldiers turned around and did THE SAME THING TO HIM.

Meanwhile the rest were running off to fight a war to save the life of the jews. They never questioned whether EVERY jewish life in those concentration camps were WORTH saving..they weren't all pious & good people. Some of those jews may have been child molesters, rapists, thieves, whatever...but the point was that no matter what, they were human beings that deserved respect. In the play we were willing to die to protect ALL jewish humanity, and to prove our worth to caucasians but sat around killing each other in the name of getting rid "the nigga".

There is something sick about that...and that was the whole point.

  

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nushooz
Member since Nov 05th 2002
14 posts
Mon Jun-12-00 05:29 AM

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37. "whew!"
In response to Reply # 22


          

To be honest, I never saw A Soilder's Story like that. Embarrassing but TRUTHFUL. I gotta go back.

But it (you analogy) sounds viable and damn insighful. As a consequence of this discussion, I am re-evaluating this whole affordable and unaffordable thing. But I still think that there are some people that we (not just Blacks but as human beings) could do with out - and I mean their actions.

Growing and Thinking from the Shoe Sto'
NuShooz
I,I, I Can't Wait!

Live from the Shoe Sto, the Mall and NOW the courtroom


I, I, I Can't Wait?
U've waited long enuff!

  

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KoalaLove

Mon Jun-12-00 05:55 AM

  
40. "But where do you draw the line?"
In response to Reply # 37


          

"But I still think that there are some people that we (not just Blacks but as human beings) could do with out - and I mean their actions. "

Where can you draw the line?

Is it the people who use the drugs, the people who sell them, the people who make them, the people who allow them to be imported into our community, or YOU who pays taxes to the guys that import them into our community and then locks up anybody that buys it or sells it?

This society is too convulted and corrupt to even think you can make arbitray lines as to whom we could do with out. The actions of men have been polluted by policies of state and vice versa. As part of this system we are all part of the problem- we are all guilty- we are all niggers (whether thats good or bad) until we all aint niggers (c Nahymsa).

K

  

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nushooz
Member since Nov 05th 2002
14 posts
Mon Jun-12-00 09:16 AM

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45. "I think WE NEED a line"
In response to Reply # 40


          

>Where can you draw the line?
It seems that you may be suggesting that none of us are in a position to draw lines. Am I right?
>
>Is it the people who use
>the drugs, the people who
>sell them, the people who
>make them, the people who
>allow them to be imported
>into our community, or YOU
>who pays taxes to the
>guys that import them into
>our community and then locks
>up anybody that buys it
>or sells it?
You have a point here. However, my facet of this discussion is geared toward the people that look like me. My moma never tried to "pull in" - diciplined- the kids down the street until she had pulled us (me & my siblings) in. Me and my brothers and sisters (all of yall) are more accountable to the people like us than we are anybody else. Why? Because our success(es) are inter-related. We have stood on the shoulders of others to obtain those successes. See, I am personally motivated by those strong brothers and sisters that survived slavery, Jim Crow and Segregation. So, I'm not as concerned, right now, about the suppliers, et al. For they can make and supply ALL they want, my brothers and sisters are free to turn them down at any time. But they don't. THESE are the people that I'm referring to.

And by the way....., "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." Moreover, "Render onto Ceasar that which is Ceasars." Taxes? How much choice to I have? None. Drug Use? How much choice do I have? ALL. Police doing their job? No control. Being one of those people that they could arrest? ALL the control.

>This society is too convulted and
>corrupt to even think you
>can make arbitray lines as
>to whom we could do
>with out.

I don't think so, K. As arbitrary as those lines maybe to some, the line drawn between responsibility and its antonym are clear to me.

The actions of
>men have been polluted by
>policies of state and vice
>versa. As part of this
>system we are all part
>of the problem- we are
>all guilty- we are all
>niggers (whether thats good or
>bad) until we all aint
>niggers (c Nahymsa).
Good quote. But if you had to rank where we are in the "solution" I don't think that you could rank those "unaffordable" niggas too high.

Talk to me today, Koala
Live
Nu
I,I, I Can't Wait!

Live from the Shoe Sto, the Mall and NOW the courtroom


I, I, I Can't Wait?
U've waited long enuff!

  

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KoalaLove

Mon Jun-12-00 09:29 AM

  
46. "RE: I think WE NEED a line"
In response to Reply # 45


          

>>Where can you draw the line?
>It seems that you may be
>suggesting that none of us
>are in a position to
>draw lines. Am I
>right?

yep

>And by the way....., "When in
>Rome, do as the Romans
>do." Moreover, "Render onto
>Ceasar that which is Ceasars."
> Taxes? How much
>choice to I have?

you dont have to pay taxes- you are obliged to. You could just as easily chose not to- just as any brother could chose not to use or sell drugs- they still do as they are also OBLIGED.

>Police
>doing their job? No
>control. Being one of
>those people that they could
>arrest? ALL the control.

Did Amadou Diallo have control? No Amadou Diallo had a wallet and a sparse knowledge of the English language and dark skin. that equals got to me.

>>This society is too convulted and
>>corrupt to even think you
>>can make arbitray lines as
>>to whom we could do
>>with out.
>
>I don't think so, K.
>As arbitrary as those lines
>maybe to some, the line
>drawn between responsibility and its
>antonym are clear to me.

Sure but again- who is going to draw that line for everybody else. You being clear as to where your lines are is one thing but you cant necessarily be clear about everyvbody else's line.

>The actions of
>>men have been polluted by
>>policies of state and vice
>>versa.

>Good quote. But if you
>had to rank where we
>are in the "solution" I
>don't think that you could
>rank those "unaffordable" niggas too
>high.

the saying is- if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. Funny how when you're sure you're not part of the problem this statement is fine but when you're in the wrong we start talking about ranking.

K

  

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nushooz
Member since Nov 05th 2002
14 posts
Mon Jun-12-00 09:51 AM

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47. "RE: I think WE NEED a line"
In response to Reply # 46


          

>>And by the way....., "When in
>>Rome, do as the Romans
>>do." Moreover, "Render onto
>>Ceasar that which is Ceasars."
>> Taxes? How much
>>choice to I have?
>
>you dont have to pay taxes-
>you are obliged to. You
>could just as easily chose
>not to-
AND GO TO JAIL FOR TAX EVASION? No Way! Besides I don't know if the jail computers have online access. Who would choose jail time over on line time? It maybe a choice, but for me, not a good one.

just as any
>brother could chose not to
>use or sell drugs- they
>still do as they are
>also OBLIGED.
>
>Did Amadou Diallo have control? No
>Amadou Diallo had a wallet
>and a sparse knowledge of
>the English language and dark
>skin. that equals got to
>me.
Man, K, there are LOT of people that are arrested EVERYDAY that should be. You are absolutely right whereby Amadou did not have a choice. However, these Nino Brown "Niggas" do.


>Sure but again- who is going
>to draw that line for
> everybody else. You being
>clear as to where your
>lines are is one thing
>but you cant necessarily be
>clear about everyvbody else's line.
But I AM TALKING about MY OWN personal use of the word. Remember I said that I defined the world in terms of "affordability"
>

>
>the saying is- if you're not
>part of the solution you're
>part of the problem. Funny
>how when you're sure you're
>not part of the problem
>this statement is fine but
>when you're in the wrong
>we start talking about ranking.
>
Touche' Sorta.
But this isn't about right and wrong for me.
I don't think I'm wrong.
If you're not a part of the solution, YOU ARE a part of the problem.
The ranking was put in the place of an even more arbitrary term - right/wrong

You made me smile here. And to think, I didn't think that you "read all of my posts"
^Just joking, K. I don't wanna fight with you TODAY Maybe tommorrow.

Live
Nu
I,I, I Can't Wait!

Live from the Shoe Sto, the Mall and NOW the courtroom


I, I, I Can't Wait?
U've waited long enuff!

  

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KoalaLove

Mon Jun-12-00 10:06 AM

  
48. "RE: I think WE NEED a line"
In response to Reply # 47


          


>AND GO TO JAIL FOR TAX
>EVASION? No Way!
>Besides I don't know if
>the jail computers have online
>access. Who would choose
>jail time over on line
>time? It maybe a
>choice, but for me, not
>a good one.

Oh so you support the government for the sake of your convenience? thats mighty noble of you Shooz.

>Man, K, there are LOT of
>people that are arrested EVERYDAY
>that should be. You
>are absolutely right whereby Amadou
>did not have a choice.
> However, these Nino Brown
>"Niggas" do.

Ok then- lets look at Freeway Rick (the real life Nino Brown) facing 10-15 in th state Pen CIA operatives approached him and gave him a deal- do the 10-15 or sell cocaine imported in direct correlation with the Contras. As a result Rick took the deal formulated and sold crack- His choice was do that or do 15 years - what would you have done?

>You made me smile here.
>And to think, I didn't
>think that you "read all
>of my posts"

of course I do- know your enemy right?

>^Just joking, K. I don't
>wanna fight with you TODAY
> Maybe tommorrow.

see you then

K

  

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KoalaLove

Mon Jun-12-00 10:09 AM

  
49. "oh yeah"
In response to Reply # 47


          

You know yo're my girl right?

  

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nushooz
Member since Nov 05th 2002
14 posts
Tue Jun-13-00 03:04 AM

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50. "Thanks, K!"
In response to Reply # 49


          

Two smiles
And with that I conceed!

SYKE!!!!!

Back to fighting!

Live from ring side
NuShooz
I,I, I Can't Wait!

Live from the Shoe Sto, the Mall and NOW the courtroom


I, I, I Can't Wait?
U've waited long enuff!

  

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nahymsa
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Tue Jun-13-00 04:17 AM

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53. "its something to consider"
In response to Reply # 37


          

sometimes its good to see another perspective.

I agree there is behavior that we need to get rid of in our communities but i don't think its accomplished by dividing ourselves into the bad niggas & the good blacks categories.

  

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StirsDsoul
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27168 posts
Fri Jun-09-00 07:20 PM

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24. "why is it.......?"
In response to Reply # 20


  

          


....that we are so quick to champion self-determination and in the same breath defend the use of a word which,historically has been the very antithesis of this cause....
....a soldiers' story is a very interesting example....citing the sarge's conversation with "Memphis"...I don't believe in that type of elitism...

  

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fire
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Sun Jun-11-00 06:48 AM

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25. "RE: why is it.......?"
In response to Reply # 24


          

although i use it, i can't defend it. i'm so used to using it that i don't even notice anymore. the sad part:? i would lose it if i heard a white person use it. that makes me a hypocrite not only to myself but to my race. i pray that god will show me the way


A HELL OF A SIGNATURE
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}>Songs of the week from hell:
}>Not That Innocent/Britney Spears;I Can Treat U Better Than U're Man or Woman Can/JShin;The
}>Real Slim Shady/Eminem;Separated/Avant
}>
}>Quote from Hell:
}>"Cookies and cream can go together, but not black and white people.
}>They don't mix good." - theo, real world casting special
}>
}>Funky as Hell!
}>Anotherloverholeinyohead/Prince;Closer to God/NIN;Sometimes/Mint Condition;Stay/Chaka
}>
}>"Fuck the slice, want the pie. why ask why, till we fry, watch us all stand in line, for a slice of the
}>devil's pie" - Dangelo
}>Funny as hell:
}>Is a guy or girl who sleeps with a member of the same sex once or twice homosexual? I don't think
}>so. Was I straight when I dated a woman exclusively for a year. No. She was dating a fag. We were
}>lesbians. A year later she left me for a gay woman. Karma is a dick. ha ha" - okp 25percenter
}>
}>correspondence: firefire100@hotmail.com
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KoalaLove

Mon Jun-12-00 02:41 AM

  
32. "Dont you see!"
In response to Reply # 24


          

"....that we are so quick to champion self-determination and in the same breath defend the use of a word which,historically has been the very antithesis of this cause...."


If we dont use self-determination to challenege the words that have insulted us the most- what would be the point!? Challenging words that dont really bother us doesnt seem very useful.

K

  

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nushooz
Member since Nov 05th 2002
14 posts
Mon Jun-12-00 05:18 AM

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35. "K, talk with me"
In response to Reply # 20


          

>"At that point it signified just
>that - people of color
>that our race of people
>can't afford."
>
>I just cant abide by the
>idea that there are people
>among us that our community
>cant "afford"

K, drug dealers of color that sell drugs to people of color.... can we afford them?

Drug & Alcohol Addict mothers than bring Black babies into the world with yet another infirmity... can we afford them?

Brothers & Sisters consummed by their own greed and self importance who are physically & fiscally detached from the people on whose shoulder they stood....can we afford them?

I attached "nigger" to these people - by my own definition -that happens to fall in with the same one that I used from A Soilders Story.

and i cant
>abide by a definition that
>is offered by a nazi
>as if it is somehow
>more true than the sentiments
>that Blacks have charged that
>word with.
This I think I can get with. The word still holds negative conotations - by most people. I don't beleive that's changed.

>It bothers me that we're so
>against the word and what
>it has meant but we're
>not willing to honor the
>changes that blacks have brought
>to the meaning-
Why should we? Isn't this just like the examples that you and your cohort (sorry I fogot his/her name) about "shit" And maybe I should go back. But what I understood is that in most cases if you say shit, it's still shit.
Or is it that Black people have brought new meaning to it by saying THE SHIT and we should be proud? I really want to understand where you at. Help a sistah out! And them maybe I can move on.

Live
Nu
I,I, I Can't Wait!

Live from the Shoe Sto, the Mall and NOW the courtroom


I, I, I Can't Wait?
U've waited long enuff!

  

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KoalaLove

Mon Jun-12-00 05:39 AM

  
39. "RE: K, talk with me"
In response to Reply # 35


          


>K, drug dealers of color that
>sell drugs to people of
>color.... can we afford them?

Yes- just as much as we can afford a government that imports those drugs into our communities and sells them to the dealer. If you pay taxes- you afford them.

>Drug & Alcohol Addict mothers than
>bring Black babies into the
>world with yet another infirmity...
>can we afford them?

Yes- as well as the alcohol and tobacco companies that enslave these people to addiction and then hide behind the government when it comes time to be held accountable; shutting down welfare and assistance for problems that THEY have caused.

>Brothers & Sisters consummed by their
>own greed and self importance
>who are physically & fiscally
>detached from the people on
>whose shoulder they stood....can we
>afford them?

It depends on who you're talking about- lots of people fit this mode. Many rich Black republicans would claim it is the jiggy players that do this, thug niggas would claim its the bourgeoise- who should be the judge of whom we cant afford?

>I attached "nigger" to these people
>- by my own definition
>-that happens to fall in
>with the same one that
>I used from A Soilders
>Story.

Thats your perogative- but have you come up with any words to demonstrate such derisiveness to the system that caused these situations? Probably not. Dont blame the wolf.

>This I think I can get
>with. The word still holds
>negative conotations - by most
>people. I don't beleive
>that's changed.

And it holds positive conotations for others- you dont have to believe it. the tripped out thing is that you hear the examples loud and clear but you're so sure of your negative conotations that you not accepting it. When DMX says He loves his niggas- is that really negative?

>Why should we? Isn't this
>just like the examples that
>you and your cohort (sorry
>I fogot his/her name) about
>"shit" And maybe I
>should go back. But what
>I understood is that in
>most cases if you say
>shit, it's still shit.

I disputed that in saying- thats its a common colloquial term to have good shit- in the case of smoking weed Good Shit is in no way negative- hence the connotations of supposedly negative terms can still be positive under different applications.

>Or is it that Black people
>have brought new meaning to
>it by saying THE SHIT
>and we should be proud?
> I really want to
>understand where you at.
>Help a sistah out!
>And them maybe I can
>move on.

I think that sufficed. Now that you understand the colloquialism "good shit" are you saying i should stop smoking the good shit cuz somebody elses connotation of shit means its bad?

K

  

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nahymsa
Charter member
1734 posts
Tue Jun-13-00 04:14 AM

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52. "ma...can we afford a "nigga" like you?"
In response to Reply # 35


          

there are those blacks who would ask that.

I'm not trying to insult, just point out that that those with different philosophies about how to approach our situation might see YOU as part of the problem. Its real easy to caste judgement, how easy is it to be judged and by who's standards? Those cats who were associated with M.O.V.E or some of those FOI types might see you as one of the lost nigga & think that you are expendable. Its all relative.

I think we have to be very clear who our enemies are & they're not all the ones hustlin on the corner. They could just as easily be the ones who walk PAST a child in trouble, spent money on a new ride or sorority enrollment instead of giving it up for the kids. Some would say that if you're not helping you're hurting.

I think the key to our progress is love & that includes loving the least among us. Its real easy to love the best.

  

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nushooz
Member since Nov 05th 2002
14 posts
Tue Jun-13-00 04:40 AM

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54. "RE: ma...can we afford a"
In response to Reply # 52


          

>there are those blacks who would
>ask that.
>
>I'm not trying to insult, just
>point out that that those
>with different philosophies about how
>to approach our situation might
>see YOU as part of
>the problem. Its real
>easy to caste judgement, how
>easy is it to be
>judged and by who's standards?
When using the n word? My own standards. And I set those standards based on what expect from myself. I'm not expecting anything from those "unaffordable niggas" that I speak of, that I wouldn't expect from myself. If I get into some ish that inables me from looking at myself, then I have just become one of those "unaffordable niggas".
Is it that hard to incorporate pride and morals into your everyday living and expectations?


Those cats who were
>associated with M.O.V.E or some
>of those FOI types might
>see you as one of
>the lost nigga & think
>that you are expendable. Its
>all relative.
Relativity? True. But if you're going to question relativity, then does it matter what I call these people?

>I think we have to be
>very clear who our enemies
>are & they're not all
>the ones hustlin on the
>corner.
Why not? Whose army are they fighting in?

They could just as
>easily be the ones who
>walk PAST a child in
>trouble, spent money on a
>new ride or sorority enrollment
>instead of giving it up
>for the kids. Some would
>say that if you're not
>helping you're hurting.
And if you're not a part of the solution, you're part of the problem. No doubt!

>I think the key to our
>progress is love & that
>includes loving the least among
>us. Its real easy to
>love the best.
No doubt here either. But my philosophy dictates love of the do-er and not the deed. Not to say that you dispute that. Suffice to say that we can all loathe child abuse and find love for the abuser; or that we hate drug addiction and still love the addict; or that the dealing drugs is "unaffordable" while praying salvation for a drug dealer's soul necessary.

Live from the Shoe Sto'
NuShooz
I,I, I Can't Wait!

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I, I, I Can't Wait?
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nahymsa
Charter member
1734 posts
Tue Jun-13-00 07:07 AM

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55. "so if I called you a nigga, its not a problem"
In response to Reply # 54


          

when whites call you a niggas then its cool, right?

Based on your other posts, you pay taxes, money used to push drugs into our community (Iran/Contra)? Therefore you support drug dealing by directly supporting the government, how are you then different from the brothas hustlin' on the corner? You support through your money, a government that has admitted to (and continues to) active involvement in destroying our efforts to succeed. And apparently had hands in killing our leaders & destroying our communities time & time again. Who's army are you fighting for when you pay the money that buys the guns to shot the Diallos & Dorismonds in the back & falsely imprison many of our men, in order to get by and avoid imprisonment yourself?

Really where does turning a blind eye & doing what you have to to get by turn into culpability? Is is right were your participation in the negativity ends? Its easy to draw lines of morality & standards in such a way that you're always on the good side of the line.


  

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KoalaLove

Tue Jun-13-00 07:48 AM

  
56. "Who said that??"
In response to Reply # 55


          

I thought I was reading one of my posts for a second.

K

  

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nushooz
Member since Nov 05th 2002
14 posts
Tue Jun-13-00 08:16 AM

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57. "RE: so if I called you a nigga, its not a problem"
In response to Reply # 55


          

>when whites call you a niggas
>then its cool, right?
I NEVER said that. In fact, my contention is that the word is negative - even when I use it. I use it to describe those "unaffordable" negroes that I thought this particular debate was based on.

>Based on your other posts, you
>pay taxes, money used to
>push drugs into our community
>(Iran/Contra)? Therefore you support
>drug dealing by directly supporting
>the government, how are you
>then different from the brothas
>hustlin' on the corner? You
>support through your money, a
>government that has admitted to
>(and continues to) active involvement
>in destroying our efforts to
>succeed. And apparently had hands
>in killing our leaders &
>destroying our communities time &
>time again.
What is the alternative? Tax Evasion and Anarchy? Hell no, I don't play an active part is any misuse and mis-doing. When those taxes leave my check, the only control I exert is at the ballot box and in voicing my opinion to the people that supposedly represent me - when the $$ is dispersed.
The difference betweem me & Nino Brown, is that I gotta a damn job-a real job. My coming to work everyday harms no one directly. Moreover, I make a conscientious decision to come here everyday instead of what seems to me the obvious alternative. That is the difference between me & Nino.
And again on this tax thing... Once again I say "Render onto Ceasar that which is Ceasars. I'm not saying Ceasar is a saint or even the best of "Ceasars" but what I am saying is that in this country and at this time, I PAY TAXES & so do you if you live here. And if you know a way out, let me know - short of moving. (I like it here)


Who's army
>are you fighting for when
>you pay the money that
>buys the guns to shot
>the Diallos & Dorismonds in
>the back & falsely imprison
>many of our men,
>in order to get by
>and avoid imprisonment yourself?
So, what is your alternative? Ceasar is what he is. Where do you live? Aren't you avoiding imprisionment?

>
>Really where does turning a blind
>eye & doing what you
>have to to get by
>turn into culpability?
I don't sell drugs to get by. And a whole lot of other people that I know don't do that either. Are we rare? I don't think so. If the government chooses to poison group of people, we are not forcibly charged with helping them. And if you do so, I have chosen to call you "nigga"

Is
>is right were your participation
>in the negativity ends?
Where my viable choices end? Yes

>Its easy to draw lines
>of morality & standards in
>such a way that you're
>always on the good side
>of the line.
Once again that (where I draw my lines) is based on my own personal standards. I ain always on the good side, but most of the time - just like Nino - I know where I am.

Live from the Shoe Sto'
NuShooz
I,I, I Can't Wait!

Live from the Shoe Sto, the Mall and NOW the courtroom


I, I, I Can't Wait?
U've waited long enuff!

  

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KoalaLove

Tue Jun-13-00 08:25 AM

  
58. "RE: so if I called you a nigga, its not a problem"
In response to Reply # 57


          


>I don't sell drugs to get
>by. And a whole
>lot of other people that
>I know don't do that
>either. Are we rare?
> I don't think so.
> If the government chooses
>to poison group of people,
>we are not forcibly charged
>with helping them. And
>if you do so, I
>have chosen to call you
>"nigga"

a big problem i se with your argument is that apparently the closest characterization of a drug dealer you can come to terms with is Nino Brown. Unfortunately narcotic situations get a little more complex than New Jack City would demonstrate.

i alreadye xplained the case of freeway Rick to you- who is the closest thing you will find to Nino Brown in the real world- what would you conclude his choice was when CIA operatives obliged him to sell the first crack rocks the world had ever seen.

I understand your position but if you think this world is as easy as- they sell drugs they're bad/ i dont so im not bad- then thats where the dispute is arising.

K

  

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nushooz
Member since Nov 05th 2002
14 posts
Tue Jun-13-00 09:09 AM

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59. "K, if that's the ONLY problem you see"
In response to Reply # 58


          

with my argument, then I have made some progress TODAY

>
>a big problem i se with
>your argument is that apparently
>the closest characterization of a
>drug dealer you can come
>to terms with is Nino
>Brown. Unfortunately narcotic situations get
>a little more complex than
>New Jack City would demonstrate.
And you know what, K? While I find your rebuttle amusing I can still agree with you on that. By no means do I think so. Nino Brown is a drug dealers characterization in a general sense that I think most people can relate to.

>i alreadye xplained the case of
>freeway Rick to you- who
>is the closest thing you
>will find to Nino Brown
>in the real world-
And I thank you for increasing my knowledge of real life drug pins
I live such a sheltered life
what
>would you conclude his choice
>was when CIA operatives obliged
>him to sell the first
>crack rocks the world had
>ever seen.
Rick made a choice. In terms of the number of people that it harmed and the very nature of crack cocaine, I venture to say that it was not a good choice. "Getting by" That's that fiscal and physical detachment that I said that Black folk can not "afford".

>I understand your position but if
>you think this world is
>as easy as- they sell
>drugs they're bad/ i dont
>so im not bad- then
>thats where the dispute is
>arising.
K, I gotta lot of crosses to bear. Some of them light...some of them heavy. At this point and time, selling drugs is not one of them. And if the only factor for determining if I was a good person was based on that, then the answer is that I'm DAMN GOOD.

We both know nothing good comes from drug sale or use. Can't we agree on that as well? (come one now....we're (you and I) are having such a good day

Live from the Shoe Sto
NuShooz
I,I, I Can't Wait!

Live from the Shoe Sto, the Mall and NOW the courtroom


I, I, I Can't Wait?
U've waited long enuff!

  

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KoalaLove

Tue Jun-13-00 10:17 AM

  
60. "RE: K, if that's the ONLY problem you see"
In response to Reply # 59


          

>with my argument, then I have
>made some progress TODAY

I was stepping back to see what you and Nah had to say. Love a good cat fight (cmon now it was a joke sheesh

>Rick made a choice. In
>terms of the number of
>people that it harmed and
>the very nature of crack
>cocaine, I venture to say
>that it was not a
>good choice. "Getting by"
> That's that fiscal and
>physical detachment that I said
>that Black folk can not
>"afford".

Again- the choices were 10-15 getting raped at the state pen or selling a drug that was already on the streets in a manner that would make it more accessible that had already been developped and would have made it to the streets with or without Rick- surely the nature of the device was not of his doing how then can he be held accountable for it?

Its troubling that Rick be condemned for his choices but the choices you make that foster the exact same circumstances are absolved as you think you are beholden to those choices. Can you imagine someone choosing to go to prison under those circumstances (think about it shooz- the CIA asks you to be a government endorsed drug dealer and you turn them down for the better option of a prison sentence- that may be noble but I gurantee you he wouldnt have lasted a week- the CIA doesnt like loose strings)? Maybe it wasnt a good choice- but apparently he wasnt given a good choice to pick from- thats what you need to understand.

>K, I gotta lot of crosses
>to bear. Some of them
>light...some of them heavy.
>At this point and time,
>selling drugs is not one
>of them. And if
>the only factor for determining
>if I was a good
>person was based on that,
>then the answer is that
>I'm DAMN GOOD.

But you thats not what being good is based on- neither is being good based on the premise of how bad somebody else is. You aint gettin into heaven pointin at Pookie's drug habit.

>We both know nothing good comes
>from drug sale or use.
> Can't we agree on
>that as well? (come
>one now....we're (you and I)
>are having such a good
>day

See thats the point of discontent- if you say nothing good comes from drug sales then the american government is more guilty than anybody on the planet- as such NOTHING GOOD COMES OUT OF THE US GOVERNMENT. Thats a bold statement to make but since you're so willing to deal in absolutes in terms of what you consider questionable behavior we all must be held accountable to that judgement. As willing participants in the American system (whether you're selling drugs or paying taxes) we are guilty and obliged to stop this.

K

  

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nushooz
Member since Nov 05th 2002
14 posts
Tue Jun-13-00 10:44 AM

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61. "RE: K, if that's the ONLY problem you see"
In response to Reply # 60


          

>
>Again- the choices were 10-15 getting
>raped at the state pen
>or selling a drug that
>was already on the streets
No, K. The choice was getting a regular job, making an honest living or selling the drugs that got him in that situation in the first place.

>in a manner that would
>make it more accessible that
>had already been developped and
>would have made it to
>the streets with or without
>Rick- surely the nature of
>the device was not of
>his doing how then can
>he be held accountable for
>it?
At some point we all got to pay the piper. Rick's action dictated his choices.

> Its troubling that Rick be
>condemned for his choices but
>the choices you make that
>foster the exact same circumstances
>are absolved as you think
>you are beholden to those
>choices.
Every damn day! 8 am to 5 pm. I am here. My choice. Who can arrest/incarcerate me for working?

Can you imagine someone
>choosing to go to prison
>under those circumstances
I make a choice EVERY DAMN DAY! Work or Starve. Work or Steal. Work or Perish. These are my choices K. And I feel certain that Rick had the same choices. By being up in this peice every day, I choose not to go to prison.

(think about
>it shooz- the CIA asks
>you to be a government
>endorsed drug dealer and you
>turn them down for the
>better option of a prison
>sentence- that may be noble
>but I gurantee you he
>wouldnt have lasted a week-
You're right there. I've seen those prison flip-flops. I don't like em.

>the CIA doesnt like loose
>strings)? Maybe it wasnt a
>good choice- but apparently he
>wasnt given a good choice
>to pick from- thats what
>you need to understand.
You and I make choices every day. And unless there is on-line access from the jail cell, then I would be correct in assessing that neither of our choices ended us up in jail.

>
>But you thats not what being
>good is based on- neither
>is being good based on
>the premise of how bad
>somebody else is. You aint
>gettin into heaven pointin at
>Pookie's drug habit.
No, that's not what being good is based on. But I got a pretty good idea on what is. And me getting into heaven...Good Lord....one of those heavenly doors will be opened by me loving my neighbor as He has loved me. If I'm selling my neighbors crack, I aint lovin them.

>See thats the point of discontent-
>if you say nothing good
>comes from drug sales then
>the american government is more
>guilty than anybody on the
>planet- as such NOTHING GOOD
>COMES OUT OF THE US
>GOVERNMENT.
I'm not saying that they aren't guilty. What I'm saying is that "today I set before you life and death...choose life" (Somewhere in the Bible. if pushed I can get book, chapter and verse)
WE ALL HAVE CHOICES! Rick, nor you or I have to directly participate in the demise of our people - by drug sale or use.

Thats a bold statement
>to make but since you're
>so willing to deal in
>absolutes in terms of what
>you consider questionable behavior we
>all must be held accountable
>to that judgement. As willing
>participants in the American system
>(whether you're selling drugs or
>paying taxes) we are guilty
>and obliged to stop this.
>
Bold is my middle name. But what is your answer to the tax thing? Tax Evasion, Anarchy, What? Hell yeah I pay the taxes! For once and for all, What are you suggesting?

Nu
I,I, I Can't Wait!

Live from the Shoe Sto, the Mall and NOW the courtroom


I, I, I Can't Wait?
U've waited long enuff!

  

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KoalaLove

Tue Jun-13-00 11:08 AM

  
62. "RE: K, if that's the ONLY problem you see"
In response to Reply # 61


          


>No, K. The choice was
>getting a regular job, making
>an honest living or selling
>the drugs that got him
>in that situation in the
>first place.

NO NO NO - those may be your choices but he had two- with the CIA operatives staring him in the face he had two choices- 10-15 in prison (and the potential threat of being killed for what he knows) or sell crack.

you cant write other options into his situation then claim he had other choices.

>At some point we all got
>to pay the piper.
>Rick's action dictated his choices.

NO NO NO- the CIA dictated his choices.

>Every damn day! 8 am
>to 5 pm. I
>am here. My choice.
> Who can arrest/incarcerate me
>for working?

UMMM- any police dept actually. you could even be shot for holding a wallet. I understand this "Im a model citizen" schtick but we all know that even model citizens get the shaft (literally if you're in new york) as such you cant necessarily say that all those on the "wrong side of the law" deserve to be there or even chose to be.

>I make a choice EVERY DAMN
>DAY! Work or Starve.
> Work or Steal.
>Work or Perish. These
>are my choices K.
>And I feel certain that
>Rick had the same choices.

yes but you cant be certain of the circumstances mitigating those choices. again- we're down to two choices in this particular case; prison or crack.

> By being up in
>this peice every day, I
>choose not to go to
>prison.

so did he- see how close you two are.

>You and I make choices every
>day. And unless there
>is on-line access from the
>jail cell, then I would
>be correct in assessing that
>neither of our choices ended
>us up in jail.

My point is- no matter what my choice is Im not very far from jail depending on what the system and its proponents see fit to do with me. Rick may have been ensnared at age 9- could you blame him for being impressionable at that point- no. I could leave work today and get busted on a mistaken identity- i could be shot. Under those circumstances seeing as the American system is more apt to make errors against me and my people i think Id rather rally along the side of my people- that is my choice. I dont have to sell drugs- but i dont have to condemn or judge people who do- now thats being good.

>I got a pretty good
>idea on what is.
>And me getting into heaven...Good
>Lord....one of those heavenly doors
>will be opened by me
>loving my neighbor as He
>has loved me. If
>I'm selling my neighbors crack,
>I aint lovin them.

When you judge and condemn that neighbor are you loving him? You know God doesnt impart the entitlement of judgement for you to purvey; if you're going to bring God in this you're on the wrong side.

>I'm not saying that they aren't
>guilty. What I'm saying
>is that "today I set
>before you life and death...choose
>life" (Somewhere in the Bible.
> if pushed I can
>get book, chapter and verse)

Again- between the choices of being imprisoned by people who would have killed him and selling crack- Rick still chose life.

>WE ALL HAVE CHOICES! Rick,
>nor you or I have
>to directly participate in the
>demise of our people -
>by drug sale or use.

Then stop paying your taxes- your taxes fund the systematic imposition of state over our lives and the history of this governments policies as well as several current examples make it clearly the culprit behind the "demise of our people"- by paying your taxes you willfuly participate in that demise and then you front cuz you claim you're doing what you're supposed to- you're doing what the murderers of our people obligate you to do- and drug dealers follow opportunities set forth by the exact same people- you're running yourself around in circles here.

>Bold is my middle name.
>But what is your answer
>to the tax thing?
>Tax Evasion, Anarchy, What? Hell
>yeah I pay the taxes!
> For once and for
>all, What are you suggesting?

Im suggesting that before you cast all this condemnation about people who you presume are contributing to the destruction of our community you take a good hard look at the system you support and tell me how you are any more innocent than anyone.

You cant

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. The American government is a major problem- we are a part of that government.

If you're willing to demonstrate who our people can somehow not afford- who among us could cast the first stone? Its gotta be the Shooz- cuz she takes no part in this... (unless of course they tell her she has to).

K

  

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DivineVersatile
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63. "NuShooz and Koala...sittin in a tree...."
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

K-I-S-S...aw, to hell with it...you all know the rest. Never back down from a point, do ya? LOL...thanks for keeping this post alive, yo.

The Infamous DVSJ

*************************
MY VERY OWN HIPPIDY-HOP! I'M GOING TO LOVE YOU AND PLAY WITH YOU FOR EVER AND EVER!!!

Elmyra....the choice of a new generation

  

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nushooz
Member since Nov 05th 2002
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Wed Jun-14-00 03:46 AM

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65. "Back Down?"
In response to Reply # 63


          

Not when you right!
But I will stop arguing at some point. Koala is incorrigible and there's nothing I can do about it. Must be the hair in his ears.

Live from the Shoe Sto'
NuShooz
I,I, I Can't Wait!

Live from the Shoe Sto, the Mall and NOW the courtroom


I, I, I Can't Wait?
U've waited long enuff!

  

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nahymsa
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Fri Jun-09-00 12:36 PM

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21. "Adolph's character was supposed to be offensive"
In response to Reply # 18


          

The whole point of that play was to show that we can't afford to have blacks who think they aren't included in that "nigga" group. That they can transcend the word "nigga" by behavior when behavior was never behind why we were disrespected with the term in the first place.

Whites didn't coin the phrase because of what we do but because of WHO we are - represented by the skin we're in.

When you (speaking generally) look at the next black man and call him a nigga - associating a physical characteristic with "negative" behavior that could come from any body of any color - then you are thinking just like the white racists the "niggas" are embarassing you in front of.


  

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Nettrice
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Sun Jun-11-00 12:14 PM

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27. "Perception"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

There are two extremes of "nigger" usage and some gray areas in between. I have seen a white "cracker" from Kentucky say the word with spit and hatred coming out of her mouth and I have seen the look of love pass between two "brothas" greeting each other with that word. I have seen white, asian and latino people use that word when talking amongst each other.

Nigger, nigga, nigra are words that have power. The existence of this word means one thing to me. We are not free, as a people, yet. We are still society's burden, the Man's burden. We are struggling with who we are, how and why we got here. We are caught up in words rather than actions, perceptions rather than reality.

Personally, I accept the word just like I accept that we are not free and there are double standards that remind us of the reason we are the extreme of white. If a white person called me or any other black person a nigger I would not be surprised. I have never been called a nigger but I see the negative intent and shadow of the word on some white people's mouths.

People perceive that nigger means more than it is. The word exists to remind us of where we came from and where we are going. If someone called my child a pickaninny, it would have the same effect. When we get free we will have no need to justify the symbol that is nigger. Until then we will continue to struggle with it.

"No matter who you are or what your age may be, if you want to achieve permanent, sustaining success, the motivation that will drive you toward that goal must come from within." - Ultramagnetic MCs

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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colourboy
Member since May 01st 2003
88 posts
Sun Jun-11-00 01:18 PM

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28. "I'll take it from the hip hop view.."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I know that we as rapper or even mcees are today using the word nigga too much and too losely. We are people as well as "artist" but at the same token we have more power than just a around da way cat. Because we have the power and the chance to reach thousands to millions with a message and the most frequently used word we use is nigga. We see people from around the world using it all nationalites that listen to hip hop. And well they figure its the american way and it must be cool to say so I'll say it to. Then some of us as artist when raised the question about how we feel about a little Japanese kid or Hispanic kid goin around sayin nigga. We say " well that just shows me that music is touching people and they feel how I feel." I say that is ridiculous. I've heard rappers say "I'm the smart nigga, the ultimate nigga, the best nigga alive, or even I'll be a nigga for life and thats just reality". And I swear that white people are loving it. They see us hangin us wit our own rope and blacks see it as disrespectful. This is not apart of us but a nightmare of our past. We as mcees act like we can't rhyme without sayin nigga. That is all shock value(as well as curse words) and if you can't make it without sayin it then don't rhyme. 'Cause you killing music and music is us so u your killing us. Dead the word.

"the king is back..."

  

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StirsDsoul
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Sun Jun-11-00 05:32 PM

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29. "Re:"Dead the word""
In response to Reply # 28


  

          


Okay.....let's see how long those who use the word can go without using it....sounds silly but it makes you conscious of not only how much you say it but..HOW you use it as well....give it a good week...

  

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Maqoma

Mon Jun-12-00 07:28 AM

  
41. "RE: N-I-G-G-E-R (a case study)"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Uh..I'm sure I agree completely. I would hope we have more in common (I'm a Blackman) with one another after 500 years in North America than a derogatory name. The widespread use of "that word" displays a lack of self respect, or a kind of ambivalence about our status in Amerikkka.

It is not okay for people, black or white, to call me Nigger/Nigga'/Nigguh or any variation thereof. I realize some of my brethren can't help it becuase it's taken so casually by most; to me this means that we dis one another without even thinking. It's like Carter G. Woodson said in "Miseducation of The Negro"; if you train a man properly to think of himself as low, even if there is no back door, he will demand one. There is no need for others to plot our demise, we are on AUTO PILOT most of the time. Our education has prepared us for nothing else.

So, while I agree that the legacy associated with NIGGER gives us a sense of connectedness, I'm not sure it's the word. I think it's the experience and the history.

Good way to stir up the debate though.

  

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Vet
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Mon Jun-12-00 07:57 AM

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42. "just wanted to say..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

nice post. i have no comment, actually i do, but i'll just keep my mouth shut for once.


...she had a body like a cello with legs
i mean the ass was absurd
long neck
smooth skin
pretty face
cookie nipples
eyes wide as her hips
full lips between dimples




  

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fire
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111370 posts
Tue Jun-13-00 03:09 AM

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51. "u're mouth shut?"
In response to Reply # 42


          

:o


u know i love u


A HELL OF A SIGNATURE
}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>
}>Songs of the week from hell:
}>Not That Innocent/Britney Spears;I Can Treat U Better Than U're Man or Woman Can/JShin;The
}>Real Slim Shady/Eminem;Separated/Avant
}>
}>Quote from Hell:
}>"Cookies and cream can go together, but not black and white people.
}>They don't mix good." - theo, real world casting special
}>
}>Funky as Hell!
}>Anotherloverholeinyohead/Prince;Closer to God/NIN;Sometimes/Mint
}>Condition;Stay/Chaka;Chickengrease/D'angelo (remix by Dr. Dre )
}>
}>"Fuck the slice, want the pie. why ask why, till we fry, watch us all stand in line, for a slice of the
}>devil's pie" - Dangelo
}>Funny as hell:
}>Is a guy or girl who sleeps with a member of the same sex once or twice homosexual? I don't think
}>so. Was I straight when I dated a woman exclusively for a year. No. She was dating a fag. We were
}>lesbians. A year later she left me for a gay woman. Karma is a dick. ha ha" - okp 25percenter
}>
}>what in the hell? Bunny Bread (c) hot thyng 76
}>correspondence: firefire100@hotmail.com
}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>}>
Who in the hell left the gate open?!?!

FIRE - GIVING YOU TRUE HELL SINCE 1999&

celebrating prince month on okp:
June 12, 2000:

MINT CONDITION!
PRINCE sends a heartfelt thanx out 2 some of the BADDEST musicians Minnesota has 2 offer: MINT CONDITION...if u'all didn't know, now u know!!!





________________________________________
who gonna check me boo?!

www.twitter.com/firefire100
http://instagram.com/firefire100
www.philadelphiaeagles.com

  

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nushooz
Member since Nov 05th 2002
14 posts
Wed Jun-14-00 03:44 AM

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64. "Hey, K! I'm down here..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

This will be my last entry in this dicussion. I conceed the "last word" to you. Prove me wrong by not responding
Our debate has drawn a little attention.

Now, back to the fight....

Getting a job or selling crack is EVERYONE's choice.

Yes, Yes, Yes Rick's actions and behaviors dictated his choices - For instance:
I need hot water in my crib. Electricty is not free (unless somebody gives me a wind-mill) It costs money. In order to get the money, I could:
A-Get a job; Get paid; Pay Power Co.
or
B-Sell crack; Get paid; Pay power co.
NOTHING in life is FREE; We choose how we pay!

Yes, people are wrongfully incarcerated BUT people are rightfully incarcerated. I know far more people that choose to work until retirement w/out wrongfull incarceration than I know people who the police just pick to arbitrarily go to jail.

We all have mitigating circumstances. But with my past and my emotional luggage and bad childhood, I bring my ass to work everyday. Rick had the same opportunity: Work or Sell drugs. Rick and I both could have been ensnared. I choose to work; he could have too. And for all you know, I may have sold drugs and have now choosen something else: WORK

I haven't condemed Rick. Only God can do that. But I can condemn drug dealing, love Rick and still go to Heaven. Aint God good?

Stop paying taxes? Are you crazy? And go to jail like Rick? What is that going to solve? Turn the light down on your computer; too much glare; it's affecting you in a "taxing" way. I dont know where you live, but here in America we pay taxes w/ few exceptions. And the only way to avoid it is JAIL or LEAVE. And I like it here-FREE! And if you know how to avoid this tax paying thing, tell me.

Live and FREE from the Shoe Sto'
NuShooz
I,I, I Can't Wait!

Live from the Shoe Sto, the Mall and NOW the courtroom


I, I, I Can't Wait?
U've waited long enuff!

  

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KoalaLove

Wed Jun-14-00 06:05 AM

  
66. "Back in the trenches"
In response to Reply # 64


          


>Getting a job or selling crack
>is EVERYONE's choice.

Righte but getting a job is not always a readily available option and those circumstances it is quite often that selling crack is a more viable opportunity. The KEY item of that is to realize who provides those opportunities.

>Yes, Yes, Yes Rick's actions and
>behaviors dictated his choices -
> For instance:
>I need hot water in my
>crib. Electricty is not
>free (unless somebody gives me
>a wind-mill) It costs money.
> In order to get
>the money, I could:
>A-Get a job; Get paid; Pay
>Power Co.
>or
>B-Sell crack; Get paid; Pay power
>co.
>NOTHING in life is FREE;
>We choose how we pay!

Now Rick is a known Felon and at the time of this turning point in his life he had no address. On those premises alone the "get a job" option is not all that reasonable.

now the KEY is to understand who made it that way- was it Rick?

>Yes, people are wrongfully incarcerated BUT
>people are rightfully incarcerated.
>I know far more people
>that choose to work
>until retirement w/out wrongfull incarceration
>than I know people who
>the police just pick to
>arbitrarily go to jail.

It depends on where you are- but you cant ascribe that percpetion throughout the land. 150 cases pending in LA on the basis of systematic and wrongful judication- 150 CASES. Demonstrating the idea that in some sections of this country people are arbitraily picked to go to ail- its called racial profiling.

the KEY is still the same- if this is how it is- then who is making it that way. not Rick.

>We all have mitigating circumstances.
>But with my past and
>my emotional luggage and bad
>childhood, I bring my ass
>to work everyday. Rick
>had the same opportunity:

You dont know what opportunities Rick had. If Im not mistaked he was an abandoned crack baby that was shuffled from foster care for his adolescent years and served his juvenile years in detention. Even if that aint Rick's exact biography that is a biography that is shared by many people.

Think about it- predisposed to adiction from birth subjected to underprivliged communities and poverty throughout your life; whatever menial job you can find probably wont allow you to afford living much less leisure as such- your opportunity is not the same as what is to be expected for the american system and the american system although a major burden on such lifestyles offers very little to resolve the situation.

>Work or Sell drugs.
>Rick and I both could
>have been ensnared. I
>choose to work; he
>could have too. And
>for all you know, I
>may have sold drugs and
>have now choosen something else:
>WORK

What Im telling you is that both those jobs are provided by the US government and while you condemn Rick for making his choice you revel in the fact that youve been lucky enough to follow along the "conscienable" path as provided by the exact same beast thats been dogging our people (and Rick) since day one- the same beast that walked in on Rick's jail cell and gave him the choice to sell crack.

> I dont know where
>you live, but here in
>America we pay taxes w/
>few exceptions. And the
>only way to avoid it
>is JAIL or LEAVE.
>And I like it here-FREE!
> And if you know
>how to avoid this tax
>paying thing, tell me.

I dont know where you live but here in america the government imports drugs into our streets and then applies unconscienable pressure on our people to sell it amongst ourselves. the only way to avoid it is to find a good paying job in the mastas house and then pay him taxes so he can keep feeding our people poison then we can cast judgement and doubt on those po lil field niggas out there that dont know no better cuz that makes us feel better cuz we know damn well that we're living in the same shackles.

I m not here to give you an alternative to paying taxes- you keep trying to take it there. Im challenging your condemnation of your people. If you pay your taxes like a good citizen then your moral standing is besmirched by the conduct of th government you support.

The government obligates you to pay your taxes
The government obligates others to sell drugs

You cant blame the dealers for what theyve been obligated to do because you've absolved yourself from the guilt of your own obligations- unless you're willing to admit that its a blatant double standard.


K


  

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nushooz
Member since Nov 05th 2002
14 posts
Wed Jun-14-00 07:59 AM

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69. "Lemme try this"
In response to Reply # 66


          

Long time ago, in a place familiar to us all, Freeway Rick was posed with the option of going to school, working at Burger King, Committing suicide, Selling drugs, Being a Dog Catcher, etc. From all those wonderful routes, he choose to sell crack.

Selling crack wasn't just a decision that he made in that jail cell. He made it long before then. And as a consequence, he ended up having to make another decision: Sell some more crack or be in jail.

This is my point. Ya dig? Do you understand THIS point?

>>Getting a job or selling crack
>>is EVERYONE's choice.
>
>Righte but getting a job is
>not always a readily available
>option and those circumstances it
>is quite often that selling
>crack is a more viable
>opportunity.

(A) I can not buy the idea that your only means of providing for your self is selling drugs. I will agree with you that Rick didn't have my family directing him to college or cheering on his accomplishments as a child or his mother as his best friend. But he did have a choice. And to say that selling crack is viable option, is a slap in the face to those folks your freind(nayhma, sorry) make reference to in the Civil Rights Movement.

The KEY item of
>that is to realize who
>provides those opportunities.
So, were the choices you made in life completely at the whim or the allowance of this system that you talk about?

>Now Rick is a known Felon
>and at the time of
>this turning point in his
>life he had no address.
>On those premises alone the
>"get a job" option is
>not all that reasonable.
>
>now the KEY is to understand
>who made it that way-
>was it Rick?
Yes. Rick was not born a known felon. See (A)
Are you relenquishing the responsibility of all of YOUR choices to those who you say "made it that way"?

>It depends on where you are-
>but you cant ascribe that
>percpetion throughout the land. 150
>cases pending in LA on
>the basis of systematic and
>wrongful judication- 150 CASES. Demonstrating
>the idea that in some
>sections of this country people
>are arbitraily picked to go
>to ail- its called racial
>profiling.
I won't argue that racial profiling doesn't exist. I know that it does. But there are at least a billion other people in this country that aren't incarcerated. I can count as least 2 right here. But let me ask you this: Do you live your life at the threat of racial profiling, ging to work(or school or wherever) thinking that the police are going to kick the door down and take you to jail because you fit some profile? Or do you go about your business each day taking for granted the security of your "right-ness"?

>the KEY is still the same-
>if this is how it
>is- then who is making
>it that way. not Rick.
See (A)

>You dont know what opportunities Rick
>had. If Im not mistaked
>he was an abandoned crack
>baby that was shuffled from
>foster care for his adolescent
>years and served his juvenile
>years in detention. Even if
>that aint Rick's exact biography
>that is a biography that
>is shared by many people.
And one of those people could be me. You don't know either. Is that an excuse?
>
>Think about it- predisposed to adiction
>from birth subjected to underprivliged
>communities and poverty throughout your
>life; whatever menial job you
>can find probably wont allow
>you to afford living much
>less leisure as such-
I ain buying that either. I know people from my hometown who raised 5 children and supported a wife off of practically nothing. I know a woman that works at Kmart making 6.50 an hour who pays her bills & barely eats. But she hasn't made the choice to sell crack or anything else.
Am I to beleive that Rick hold NO responsibility for his situation?

your
>opportunity is not the same
>as what is to be
>expected for the american system
>and the american system although
>a major burden on such
>lifestyles offers very little to
>resolve the situation.
??????

>
>What Im telling you is that
>both those jobs are provided
>by the US government and
>while you condemn Rick for
>making his choice you revel
>in the fact that youve
>been lucky enough to follow
>along the "conscienable" path
I CHOOSE this path. Others were available. But I choose THIS one. "A road diverged....I choose the one....."


as
>provided by the exact same
>beast thats been dogging our
>people (and Rick) since day
>one- the same beast that
>walked in on Rick's jail
>cell and gave him the
>choice to sell crack.
See (A)

>I dont know where you live
>but here in america the
>government imports drugs into our
>streets
I don't dispute that

and then applies unconscienable
>pressure on our people to
>sell it amongst ourselves.
I dispute this. See (A)

the
>only way to avoid it
>is to find a good
>paying job in the mastas
>house and then pay him
>taxes so he can keep
>feeding our people poison then
>we can cast judgement and
>doubt on those po lil
>field niggas out there that
>dont know no better cuz
>that makes us feel better
>cuz we know damn well
>that we're living in the
>same shackles.
It's about choices.

>I m not here to give
>you an alternative to paying
>taxes- you keep trying to
>take it there.
Because YOU keep bringing it up.

Im challenging
>your condemnation of your people.
Once again, I dislike/abhore/hate drug DEALING (Verb); I can still love/like/pray for THE DEALER (Noun)

>If you pay your taxes
>like a good citizen then
>your moral standing is besmirched
>by the conduct of th
>government you support.
>
>The government obligates you to pay
>your taxes
>The government obligates others to sell
>drugs
See (A)

>You cant blame the dealers for
>what theyve been obligated to
>do because you've absolved yourself
>from the guilt of your
>own obligations- unless you're willing
>to admit that its a
>blatant double standard.
See (A)

NuShooz
I,I, I Can't Wait!

Live from the Shoe Sto, the Mall and NOW the courtroom


I, I, I Can't Wait?
U've waited long enuff!

  

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KoalaLove

Wed Jun-14-00 08:35 AM

  
70. "RE: Lemme try this"
In response to Reply # 69


          

You have ducked the issue at hand since the very first time Ive brought it up and have gone about all this disconcerting questioning to no end.

Your belief seems to be that people have the choice to not sell drugs but I gave you a very specific example where Freeway Rick didnt have much of a choice.

lets try this again

The CIA gave Rick two choices go to prison (where we will find a way to have you killed) or sell crack for us.

Those are the choices- we're not dealing in Ricks life previous to this moment but even then there are far too many mitigating circumstances to place blame on him even then.

You act as if people are not pressured into drug dealing but the fact is they are and YOU pay the guys that provide that pressure- thats all there is to it Shooz.

Choices choies- everybody has choices but The American system is the purveyor of those choices and while it appreciates your support it could not profit without a great number of our people selling drugs on its behalf. If you dont like it - fine - but you're paying for it- thats your choice.

Apparently youd rather look down on people who are less fortunate than to examine how much of a role you play in their misfortune.

again thats your choice- doesnt make it right

K

  

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nushooz
Member since Nov 05th 2002
14 posts
Wed Jun-14-00 09:04 AM

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73. "MY issue vs YOURS"
In response to Reply # 70


          

Just like a man K, you think you can decide MY Issue... tsk, tsk, tsk. Chauvanism is another post. Just kidding. It's all about love. Opps! Somebody (Devine) will take that the wrong way.

But back to the fight/ I mean "debate":

>You have ducked the issue at
>hand since the very first
>time Ive brought it up
>and have gone about all
>this disconcerting questioning to no
>end.
>
>Your belief seems to be that
>people have the choice to
>not sell drugs but I
>gave you a very specific
>example where Freeway Rick didnt
>have much of a choice.
"Didn't have much of a choice" denotes that you will attest that he did have choices.
>
>lets try this again
>
>The CIA gave Rick two choices
>go to prison (where we
>will find a way to
>have you killed) or sell
>crack for us.
>
>Those are the choices- we're not
>dealing in Ricks life previous
>to this moment but even
>then there are far too
>many mitigating circumstances to place
>blame on him even then.
So, Rick is not responsible at all? K, the choices that Rick made up until that time is what landed him in jail.

>
>You act as if people are
>not pressured into drug dealing
How many CIA agents approached you regarding selling drugs today? None for me. Maybe they don't have my new address. Why would the CIA be interested in me anyway - all I do is buy shoes and have interesting debated on line?

>but the fact is they
>are and YOU pay the
>guys that provide that pressure-
True. Taxes pay their salaries. But they also pay for the Pell Grant that enabled me to go to college. They extended the WIC that my friend needed to feed her children - when I couldn't help. Taxes also paved the road that I used to get to my JOB that I choose to come to - under my own pressure - to pay for that hot water.

thats all there is to it, Koala.
>
>Choices choies- everybody has choices but
>The American system is the
>purveyor of those choices and
>while it appreciates your support
>it could not profit without
>a great number of our
>people selling drugs on its
>behalf.
But we don't HAVE TO SELL DRUGS

>Apparently youd rather look down on
>people who are less fortunate
>than to examine how much
>of a role you play
>in their misfortune.
No, I'd rather help them "get up" if they are interested. If I've played an indirect role in their demise, perhaps I can play a direct role in their success. Once again I can hate/abhor/dislike drug dealing (verb) and still love/like the dealer (noun).

>again thats your choice- doesnt make
>it right
-much like dealing drugs

Nu
I,I, I Can't Wait!

Live from the Shoe Sto, the Mall and NOW the courtroom


I, I, I Can't Wait?
U've waited long enuff!

  

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KoalaLove

Wed Jun-14-00 09:31 AM

  
76. "RE: MY issue vs YOURS"
In response to Reply # 73


          


>"Didn't have much of a choice"
>denotes that you will attest
>that he did have choices.

Right- prison (death) or sell crack- you said youself that one should "choose life" but apparently you cant choose life if its a life that Shooz doesnt agree with.

>So, Rick is not responsible at
>all? K, the choices
>that Rick made up until
>that time is what landed
>him in jail.

But you arent aware of the choices he made up until that point. As i remember it he was in that cell fro illegal arms dealing and that activity also took place with federal involvement. Research the Iran Contra scandal and Freeway Rick this thing runs deep- before selling crack for the government I think Rick was procuring illegal arms for export to the Contras- he was in jail cuz he sold a few of those guns to people on the street.

Thats the stuff im talking about- his choice may have been illegal but it wasnt illegal when he was doing it for the man. He only landed in jail when he decided to do something for himself.

>How many CIA agents approached you
>regarding selling drugs today?
>None for me. Maybe
>they don't have my new
>address. Why would the
>CIA be interested in me
>anyway - all I do
>is buy shoes and have
>interesting debated on line?

Thats a horrible argument- "well they dont pressure me so it must not happen" you can do better than that. The governments already got you where they need you- thanks for playing.

>True. Taxes pay their salaries.
> But they also pay
>for the Pell Grant that
>enabled me to go to
>college. They extended the
>WIC that my friend needed
>to feed her children -
>when I couldn't help.
>Taxes also paved the road
>that I used to get
>to my JOB that I
>choose to come to -
>under my own pressure -
>to pay for that hot
>water.

Right they also paid for Amadou Diallo to be shot and then set free. It also pays the salary of any redneck cop who can shoot any of the people you just mentioned and the legal defense that will probably get them off afterwards.

>thats all there is to it,
>Koala.

No its not- thats all you're willing to make of it. WTF difference does a pell grant make to Amadou Diallo or Malice Green or 150 cases of impropper judication in LA. I could have a pell grant in my back pocket if I try to pull it out I can still be shot. You dont realize that in your own environment as such you dont see how much of a pressure that is for our people- but imagine if you lived around teh corner from Diallo- imagine if you heard him be shot- imagine if you walk by the spot he died everyday. What if somebody told you - you have a choice- youd say great but so do they AND THEY"VE GOT GUNS!

>But we don't HAVE TO SELL
>DRUGS

some people do- system of survival shooz until you recognize it you'll never understand


>No, I'd rather help them "get
>up" if they are interested.
> If I've played an
>indirect role in their demise,
>perhaps I can play a
>direct role in their success.
> Once again I can
>hate/abhor/dislike drug dealing (verb) and
>still love/like the dealer (noun).

>>again thats your choice- doesnt make
>>it right
>-much like dealing drugs

EXACTLY!

  

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KoalaLove

Wed Jun-14-00 09:39 AM

  
77. "Besides..."
In response to Reply # 73


          

Rick only sold the drugs he didnt force anybody to take them so therefore he's not responsible for destroying our community right?


K

  

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nahymsa
Charter member
1734 posts
Thu Jun-15-00 04:58 AM

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86. "Word...how is a drug dealer different than the US Government?"
In response to Reply # 77


          

Drug Dealer sells illegal drugs = Government sells illegal drugs

Drug Dealer breaks laws = Government breaks laws (Iran/contra, campaign financing....)

Drug dealer profits off selling destructive product (crack/heroin) to weak people (addicts) in bad situations = Government profits off selling destructive product (cocaine/heroin) to weak people (drug dealer) in bad situations.

Drug dealer pays for new sneakers for the neighbor's kid, keeps his aunt's lights on, feeds family = Government pays for new sneakers for the neighbor's kid, keeps aunt's lights on, feeds families (welfare,college loans, tax breaks for rich

Drug dealer uses violence to control/facilitate sale of destructive product for profit = Government uses violence to facilitate sale of destructive for profit (Panama/Noriega)

I could go on & on.



  

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KoalaLove

Thu Jun-15-00 05:08 AM

  
87. "Just goes to show ya"
In response to Reply # 86


          

in all our railing against the supposed evil tendencies of the street dealer we pay taxes and admonish the biggest drug dealer in the world from even being considered accountable.

K

  

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Phraktal

Thu Jun-15-00 05:20 AM

  
88. "KoalaLove and Nahymsa...."
In response to Reply # 86


          

I LOVE Y'ALL!!!!!!!!! n/m


  

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nahymsa
Charter member
1734 posts
Wed Jun-14-00 06:13 AM

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67. "ma...you are deliberately missing the point."
In response to Reply # 64


          

>Getting a job or selling crack
>is EVERYONE's choice.

but there're not always simple choices and you know this. Rick as Koala mentioned was not given the option of getting a job or selling crack. He was told to SELL crack for the government (who works for YOU) or GO TO JAIL. Where is the job option there?

Also, you're implying that everyone's opportunities for employment are the same. That is not true, not only are the opportunities different but so is pay for the same work. It is a fact that if everyone in America were to be qualified there still wouldnt be enough legal jobs that provide a living wage...that is a fact. This system is dependant on the exploitation of the poor for survival. Yet you seem to be of the impression that working for a "legit" company makes you somehow innocent. That's selective responsibility at best. As Koala said, you have a choice not to pay for a corrupt government but you do so so you won't go to jail for the likes of Rick.

>Yes, people are wrongfully incarcerated BUT
>people are rightfully incarcerated.
>I know far more people
>that choose to work
>until retirement w/out wrongfull incarceration
>than I know people who
>the police just pick to
>arbitrarily go to jail.

ummm...clearly racial profiling which has been proven shows that the police arbitrarily decide to enforce the law. That is wrong. Some of the same people & companies you work for & with are the benefits of this double standard.
>
Rick had the same opportunity: Work or Sell drugs.

LIE, why do you keep putting in a false choice. The choice presented by the CIA was SELL CRACK FOR THE GOVERNMENT OR GO TO JAIL!
>>
>I haven't condemed Rick. But I can condemn drug
>dealing, love Rick and still go to Heaven.

But you pay money (taxes) to support the drug dealers (the government) so what does that make you? The government sells drugs, why don't you take away you're part in their funding?


>Stop paying taxes? Are you crazy? And go to
>jail like Rick? What is that going to solve?

Are you familar with American history? Or the Civil Rights movement, imagine if they took that attitude. The American Revolutionaries refused to pay taxes and took the chance at going to jail for what was right. Do you lack the courage to back your convictions with real action? Most of us do, that's why talk is cheap. If all American citizens were to renige on paying taxes that would be one of the most effective ways to enforce our will on the government. Living by your principles requires real sacrifice...not just lip service.

  

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KoalaLove

Wed Jun-14-00 06:28 AM

  
68. "Hold Up"
In response to Reply # 67


          

I dont want anybody to be under the misconception that I am advocating tax evasion. My mention of paying taxes is only so that we all realize that we are a part of the problem no matter how far removed we think we are from those who commit the acts that perpetuate our sitaution.

Pay your taxes if you want to - or even if you feel obligated- but recognize what your tax dolloars pay for with or without your consent. Realize ultimately that you are not in control you have only been provided a better option. If you condemn those who sell drugs- you must condemn the government that provides them and as a supporter of that government you're naturally next in line.

Im not saying dont pay taxes- Im saying paying taxes can be just as damaging to our community and if you're willing to believe drug dealing plays a part in our destruction you must admit that YOU DO TOO.

I will say this.

If you're considering that a revolution of sorts is in order and you couldnt imagine doing a little jail time for your cause then you've got a lot to learn about the history of resistance.

Serving time for tax evasion- our ancestors would have been lucky to have gotten off so easy.

K

  

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nushooz
Member since Nov 05th 2002
14 posts
Wed Jun-14-00 08:44 AM

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71. "Let's try this"
In response to Reply # 67


          

>but there're not always simple choices
>and you know this.
>Rick as Koala mentioned was
>not given the option of
>getting a job or selling
>crack. He was told to
>SELL crack for the government
>(who works for YOU) or
>GO TO JAIL. Where is
>the job option there?
There were choices to be made prior to that point.

>Also, you're implying that everyone's opportunities
>for employment are the same.
> That is not true,
>not only are the opportunities
>different but so is pay
>for the same work.
So becoming a felon is the answer?

It
>is a fact that if
>everyone in America were to
>be qualified there still wouldnt
>be enough legal jobs that
>provide a living wage...that is
>a fact.
Reference please.

This system is
>dependant on the exploitation of
>the poor for survival. Yet
>you seem to be of
>the impression that working for
>a "legit" company makes you
>somehow innocent. That's selective responsibility
>at best.
At lease there's responsibility. It seems you want me to conceed that Rick is not responsible in any way for his lot.

As Koala said,
>you have a choice not
>to pay for a corrupt
>government but you do so
>so you won't go to
>jail for the likes of
>Rick.
Tell me, is there on line access from jail? I like the amount of freedom that I have!


>ummm...clearly racial profiling which has been
>proven shows that the police
>arbitrarily decide to enforce the
>law. That is wrong.
Completely Undisputed by Me. True True True

Some
>of the same people &
>companies you work for &
>with are the benefits of
>this double standard.
How is that?

>LIE, why do you keep putting
>in a false choice. The
>choice presented by the CIA
>was SELL CRACK FOR THE
>GOVERNMENT OR GO TO JAIL!
TRUTH! Did you decide to quit your job today and go sell drugs? Rick's only choices in life were not made in that jail cell on that day. TRUTH!

>>I haven't condemed Rick. But I can condemn drug
>>dealing, love Rick and still go to Heaven.
>
>But you pay money (taxes) to
>support the drug dealers (the
>government) so what does that
>make you? The government
>sells drugs, why don't you
>take away you're part in
>their funding?
Stop paying taxes? Are you crazy? And go to
jail like Rick? What is that going to solve?

>Are you familar with American history?
>Or the Civil Rights movement,
>imagine if they took that
>attitude.
This parrallel is an atrocity! I am SO familiar with the Civil Rights Movement that I am floored by you comparing going to jail for the right to vote with going to jail for selling drugs or even tax evasion.

The American Revolutionaries
>refused to pay taxes and
>took the chance at going
>to jail for what was
>right. Do you lack the
>courage to back your convictions
>with real action?
I don't think you are in a position to "judge" (isn't that what this debate is about - from your stand point? or was it Koala's?) my level of courage or committment.

And since you brought up history, the American Revolutionary War was about taxation without REPRESENTATION - and for wherever and whatever it is at this point, YOU have the opportunity or choice (boy, there's a good word) to be a participant in your representation. And the war was a concerted effort. Find me some more people that have such an effort for ummmm, what should I say....TAX EVASION. At that time I will examine it and then CHOOSE if I want to participate.

Most
>of us do, that's why
>talk is cheap. If
>all American citizens were to
>renige on paying taxes that
>would be one of the
>most effective ways to enforce
>our will on the government.
Why don't you get the ball rolling. Email me from Federal Prison. OK?

>Living by your principles requires
>real sacrifice...not just lip service.
And I have sacrificed drug dealing and jail time for my principles.

NuShooz
I,I, I Can't Wait!

Live from the Shoe Sto, the Mall and NOW the courtroom


I, I, I Can't Wait?
U've waited long enuff!

  

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KoalaLove

Wed Jun-14-00 09:03 AM

  
72. "What would you have done Shooz?"
In response to Reply # 71


          

Given the choice between Prison (under the circumstances that Rick stood to face) and selling crack- what would you have done.

Think very carefully- and try to be honest.

Maybe you wouldnt sell crack but surely you can feel compassion for people who would.

K

  

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nushooz
Member since Nov 05th 2002
14 posts
Wed Jun-14-00 09:15 AM

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74. "RE: What would you have done Shooz?"
In response to Reply # 72


          

If I were transported right now into that cell with MY beleifs and THAT choice, I would have to choose prison. "Cuz until you do right, all you do will go wrong" (L. Hill/Miseducation) If my death means that I don't actively participate in someone else's, then I would have to rot or die in jail-believing those values that I hold dear.

Honestly.

Nu
I,I, I Can't Wait!

Live from the Shoe Sto, the Mall and NOW the courtroom


I, I, I Can't Wait?
U've waited long enuff!

  

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KoalaLove

Wed Jun-14-00 09:19 AM

  
75. "RE: What would you have done Shooz?"
In response to Reply # 74


          

"I would have to rot or die in jail-believing those values that I hold dear. "

AHA! SO WHY ARE YOUS TILL PAYING YOUR TAXES!?!?

  

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nushooz
Member since Nov 05th 2002
14 posts
Wed Jun-14-00 10:21 AM

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78. "RE: What would you have done Shooz?"
In response to Reply # 75


          

>"I would have to rot or
>die in jail-believing those values
>that I hold dear. "
>
>AHA! SO WHY ARE YOUS TILL
>PAYING YOUR TAXES!?!?
Because my beleifs dictate that you render onto Ceasar that which is Ceasars.

Don't bring this tax thing up againnnnnn! Vial though it may be (taxation), the choice is pay or stay - in jail. I like freedom!
And besides, taxation is a lot like tithing: I can't tell the church what to do with my money once I've paid it - unless I go to a Baptist church.

Dig?

Live
Nu
I,I, I Can't Wait!

Live from the Shoe Sto, the Mall and NOW the courtroom


I, I, I Can't Wait?
U've waited long enuff!

  

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KoalaLove

Wed Jun-14-00 10:34 AM

  
79. "RE: What would you have done Shooz?"
In response to Reply # 78


          


>Because my beleifs dictate that you
>render onto Ceasar that which
>is Ceasars.

So if Caesar told you to sell crack would ya do it?

  

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nushooz
Member since Nov 05th 2002
14 posts
Thu Jun-15-00 09:40 AM

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89. "RE: What would you have done Shooz?"
In response to Reply # 79


          

>So if Caesar told you to
>sell crack would ya do
>it?
PLEASE let's put this back into the context in which it was written -mine and the Bible's. Upon writing, it was referring to Ceasar's tax payments - not drug dealing. So this is not even a viable question.

But answer mine:
Is Freeway Rick void of responsibility for any of his actions? Perhaps the other times, I wasn't clear.

Additionally, answer this:
Is anything free?

Despite the evils of the government, do you not see ANY good things that become of your tax dollars?
EPA, good or bad? SUPREME COURT, good or bad? SBA, good or bad? Federal Student Financial Aid, good or bad?

Is the government responsible for EVERYthing and you responsible for NONE?

Yes or NO?

Live
Nu
I,I, I Can't Wait!

Live from the Shoe Sto, the Mall and NOW the courtroom


I, I, I Can't Wait?
U've waited long enuff!

  

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KoalaLove

Thu Jun-15-00 09:56 AM

  
91. "Yuck"
In response to Reply # 89


          

You threw that sentiment in there but want to pull it back out if I apply to contemporary terms.

One of the issues weve been dsicussing is the idea that some people are obligated to sell drugs just as you are obligated to pay taxes- to which you said "Render under Ceaser's..." as such the analgous question is- would you sell crack if ceaser told you to.

The CIA (Ceaser) gave Freeway rick two options- so would sell crack for Ceaser?

You brought him up- the situation is still the same and Freeway Rick still has a choice between the two options that youve been ducking and dodging since the beginning.

Go to prison and die or sell crack.

Those are the choices- tell me which one is a "good choice"

K

  

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nahymsa
Charter member
1734 posts
Thu Jun-15-00 03:34 AM

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81. "are you equating the government with a religious institution"
In response to Reply # 78


          

you KNOW the government is doing wrong with your money...so why keep giving it to them?

  

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KoalaLove

Thu Jun-15-00 03:48 AM

  
82. "RE: are you equating the government with a religious institution"
In response to Reply # 81


          

>you KNOW the government is doing
>wrong with your money...so why
>keep giving it to them?

cuz she doesnt KNOW the specifics of the wrong that government is doing so she fancies herself removed from active participation. Then she can boast stuff like "I would have to rot or die in jail-believing those values that I hold dear." While the government's subversive evil deeds go unnoticed and never interefere with her "values" she is content.

God Bless America!

K

  

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nahymsa
Charter member
1734 posts
Thu Jun-15-00 04:21 AM

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84. "She knows that the government sold drugs for arms with Iran Contra"
In response to Reply # 82


          

Drugs that they spread all over California.

Arms that they used to support an illegal war in Nicaragua which killed people. I'm sure the families of the Sandinistas murdered utilizing her tax dollars could give a fuck about what she didn't know.

See, i pay taxes and i work everyday, but i don't play myself like I stay pristine when I'm rolling around in this dirty system with everyone else. its like how my cousin recently became a PO and she was talking bad about all the guys that go through the penile. I had remind her that if it wasn't for those men (and the system that targets many of them) she wouldn't have a job & wouldn't be able to feed her daughter.

  

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KoalaLove

Thu Jun-15-00 04:25 AM

  
85. "Dammit Nah"
In response to Reply # 84


          

"if it wasn't for those men (and the system that targets many of them) she wouldn't have a job & wouldn't be able to feed her daughter. "


And without criminal activity alot of those men wouldnt be able to feed their own seeds much less themselves.


Dammit nah- you're too real for people sometimes.


K

  

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nushooz
Member since Nov 05th 2002
14 posts
Thu Jun-15-00 09:44 AM

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90. "RE: are you equating the government with a religious institution"
In response to Reply # 81


          

No, Dear. It was an EXAMPLE. Go back and try and read it as such.

>you KNOW the government is doing
>wrong with your money...so why
>keep giving it to them?
>
For the same reasons YOU are.

Live
Nu
I,I, I Can't Wait!

Live from the Shoe Sto, the Mall and NOW the courtroom


I, I, I Can't Wait?
U've waited long enuff!

  

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KoalaLove

Thu Jun-15-00 10:06 AM

  
92. "But wait"
In response to Reply # 90


          

Are you sure those arent the same reasons that lead some people to sell drugs?

  

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nushooz
Member since Nov 05th 2002
14 posts
Thu Jun-15-00 10:41 AM

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93. "K (and your band of happy people)"
In response to Reply # 92


          

I grow weary of this: It's getting old. And although, we both have made some legitimate claims, there are some things (like yourself) that I am not willing to budge on. So, these are my final words:

Nobody has to sell drugs.

We all have choices. Some of us make those choices responsibly while others make them and shirk responsibility. But MY bottom line is rather you accept responsibility or not, your lot in life is cast by the choices you - not the government- make.

The only alternative to not paying taxes is tax evasion and (if caught) jail time. That is not a choice that I am willing to make. Is anybody?

For everything the government is, it is what it is. How YOU respond to it is your choice. But know, if the choices you make are adverse to this necessary evil (Alex DeTouqville) there will more than likely be concesequences and reprecussions.

I will watch A Soilders Story once more.

There is some activity perpetrated my Black people that I beleive we could do without. And the word "Nigger" is what I will use to describe these people.

As always K, you've been a formidable opponent. I will continue to try and not kuss you
...until the next fight.

Live from the Shoe Sto'.....
Free to buy as many shoes as the CIA will allow before conveying some connection to Amelda...Choosing bad ass ho shoes.....Turning down Payless as a "good" place to shop for shoes....
NuShooz
I,I, I Can't Wait!

Live from the Shoe Sto, the Mall and NOW the courtroom


I, I, I Can't Wait?
U've waited long enuff!

  

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nahymsa
Charter member
1734 posts
Thu Jun-15-00 10:48 AM

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95. "nobody HAS to pay taxes..that is a fact"
In response to Reply # 93


          

we all CHOOSE to pay taxes to avoid the problems (jail) that would come if we don't. You can make another choice as much as the drug dealer can. You choose not too.




  

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nahymsa
Charter member
1734 posts
Thu Jun-15-00 10:44 AM

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94. "umm..what the point of an example"
In response to Reply # 90


          

if you're not using it to compare & contrast?

>>you KNOW the government is doing wrong with >>your money...so why keep giving it to them?
>>
>For the same reasons YOU are.

but I don't pretend that I don't know exactly what that means, like I said, nobody's hands are clean.

peace

  

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nahymsa
Charter member
1734 posts
Thu Jun-15-00 04:09 AM

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83. "RE: Let's try this"
In response to Reply # 71


          

>There were choices to be made (Rick's)
>prior to that point.

but we were talking about the choice that was given THEN.

>So becoming a felon is the answer?

YOU ARE CURRENTLY SUPPORTING FELONS RIGHT NOW WITH YOUR TAX MONEY. what part don't you get. The current government REGULARLY breaks its own laws (not to mention moral ones). You pay then therefore you support felony. Also, if a person takes the position that selling drugs SHOULDN'T be illegal & is NOT morally wrong then it would be their moral right to break the law. Unjust laws should not be honored (that's the premise for the American Revolution & the civil rights movement).

>>is a fact that if everyone in America were to
>>be qualified there still wouldnt
>>be enough legal jobs that
>>provide a living wage...that is
>>a fact.
>Reference please.

give me time & i will provide them.

>At lease there's responsibility. It seems you >want me to conceed that Rick is not responsible in any way for his lot.

Funny how you can hold yourself unresponsible for how your tax dollars are used. You talk about morality but that premise is considered by many to be very immoral. Last time I checked, if you know or suspect that your possessions MAY be used in the commission of a crime (and we all know that the government is regularly breaking the law) THEN you are responsible (ethically at minimum) to withdraw support. You don't give your car to a person you think is just as likely to deliberately run someone over as drive themselves to work, then say, well I didn't know what she was going to do with the car.
>
>I like the amount of freedom that I have!

and?

>Did you decide to quit your job today and
>go sell drugs? Rick's only choices in life were
>not made in that jail cell on that day.
>TRUTH!

I dont' sell because I don't have to, if i felt i had to I might. Rick's choices AT THAT TIME were what they were. We are not talking about every choice made at every point in his life. And we can't comment on why he felt the need to make the choices that he did since we aren't in the position that he was in, nor know all the facts about EVERY aspect of his life. We do know the fact that the CIA told him to sell drugs or go to jail & in that instance there were no other options but jail or hustlin'.

>This parrallel is an atrocity! I am SO familiar >with the Civil Rights Movement that I am floored >you comparing going to jail for the right to vote with going to jail for selling
>drugs or even tax evasion.

if you are so familiar with the civil rights movement, you would know that it wasn't just about the right to vote. Do you think the Panthers got their guns legally? Do you know how many organizations got some of their funding from the "hustlers" of our community? Do you realize that the first people to refuse to sit in the back of the bus were the prostitutes (criminals) and the most poor marginalized people of our communities?
>>
>And since you brought up history, the American Revolutionary War was about taxation without REPRESENTATION

I'm sure the British had a different perspective on that.

>- and for wherever and whatever it is at this
>point, YOU have the opportunity or choice (boy, >there's a good word) to be a participant in your >representation.

no, you have a choice to pick out of the candidates selected for you by big business.

>And the war was a concerted effort.

The American Revolution? really, do you know American history?

>Find me some more people that have such an >effort for ummmm, what should I say....TAX >EVASION. At that time I will examine it and >then CHOOSE if I want to participate. Why don't >you get the ball rolling. Email me Federal >Prison. OK?

You got to wait on other people to examine what is wrong & do what you consider is right? I'm not the one talking about what black people can be afforded, you're casting yourself as judge & jury of who's righteous.

>>Living by your principles requires
>>real sacrifice...not just lip service.

>And I have sacrificed drug dealing
>and jail time for my
>principles.

But you won't sacrifice your freedom for your principles.

  

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Wise_7

Wed Jun-14-00 11:51 AM

  
80. "Wow, tax evasion is related to "nigger""
In response to Reply # 0


          

Well, I'll be damned, Koala done hit another one (this time with Nushooz).
I was reading each post, and I liked the debate.
I noticed that Nushooz was not giving in to the "sell crack" option, despite the fact of many situations (like Ricky's) that occur.
I also laughed at Nushooz's "good sumaritan" perception of living in America, Shooz said "I'd rather be FREE!"
Now, can anybody tell me.....what's so free about having to pay taxes?
What's so free about being under the jurisdiction and scrutiny of the American government?
If not paying taxes will land you in jail, then where's the freedom in this?

Please realize this:
We are not FREE! All of us are pawns used in this American game of capitalism.
The only difference between you and that "nigger" that's in jail is that you get to move around more because there are no bars blocking you.

We all have numbers, it's just that those in prison have to wear it on their clothes.

  

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nakeisha

Thu Jun-15-00 12:30 PM

  
96. "ironic...."
In response to Reply # 0


          

I was just viewing an email a friend of mine sent me...and it was talking about the same thing!!!

check this site out:

<http://www.seestudio.com/the n word.html>

I thought it was deep....

my thoughts is this:

Do we take the word "nigger" and use it as our own, in a whole different spin to 1)throw it back in the face of the ones who have, and those who still are using the word against people of color?-You know, put a positive spin on things; or 2)do we use it simply because it's another word we've got to identify ourselves with, so let's use the hell out of it?-unconscious of the effects that may be taking place from using the word.

My other question is, Why are we using a word that brought shame to our people in the past? Personally, I feel uneasy to hear that word come out of a Black person's mouth to describe or acknowledge another Black person. I know we have better words in the dictionary we can use. Does that mean we've accepted the word?


  

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nakeisha

Thu Jun-15-00 12:37 PM

  
97. "someone beat me to the webpage..."
In response to Reply # 96


          

I usually look at all the replies,but didnt do it this trip...

Oh, well...it's worth looking at again

  

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