As black women today, as well as minority women, it is up to us to change the face of feminism and the old school belief of what being an feminist is. For my women all the shit we have been fed by the white feminist movement was not in our best interest! You can still be a woman, indenpendant and still love and respect your man. Furthermore, we as women have to realize that we have more power than we choose to believe, when it comes to sexism and racism. *Note- If we do not show up to the video shoots half ass naked and ready to do anything for some attention, men will have to rethink concepts on how they represent women. If we don't show up back stage and at the hotels after concerts, preparing to give so freely of our bodies just to say we fucked this person. The mentallity will eventually start to change of performers towards women and how they view us. If we start loving ourselves and our sista's more, and showing it, and learning not only how to love our men, but respect them for the people that they are and not what we want them to be, or for what they have, men will have no other choice but to respect us. But it has to start with my women being responsible and addmitting our part in this process. It's just not all on the men. We mold and shape there ego's and then cry about the end result. If you ever asked a man why does he become a player or live his life a certain way, 9 chances out of 10 it's for the response of a woman. Women and men need to start talking HONESTLY, about what we feel deep in our hearts, in the back of our minds, and in the very depths of our soul. Mind you, the truth will hurt and we can not look down on each other based on what we have experienced. Lets be open with each other so we can start healing.

True. I miss the conversations I used to have with sisters at school. They were "FRIENDS" now in the "real world" people dont want to gel like that. Its sad. Folx are always out scoping for the "ONE" without looking for that friend you can talk to and be real with. Granted, the "ONE" should be like that too. But, that doesnt mean you cant build with other's. There is no conversation like that with a sister who has her head on straight

You ever thought about the word human??

======
FLASH!!

I really feel that you need to read what I was talking about. Sounds like you got some issues (no disrespect) with women, relationship wise. What I'm talking about is how black men and women need to start talking, and stop worrying about what we can't do. Trueenough, the human factor comes into play, but we can't just keep on using that. We can't advance if we just think that it's no hope and no way to start dialect with one another. If you are tired of Chicken Heads and what ever negative attitude men and women have toward each other than lets talk about it be it negative or positive. We need to start the healing process, and it starts with a open and HONEST dialect. Not just some damn excusses.

so lets talk.....

IM & AIM - Kash2099 (Unspoken wordsmith)

...Sometimes my heart gets heavy. Sometimes I just wanna leave and fly away. Sometimes I don't know what to do with myself, passion takes over me. Feel like I'm a man goin insane, loosin my brain tryna maintain doin my thing...
-D. Smith


Poisonous flows break ya nose spill ya vital liquid/Everyone wanna know how you got ya lip split-ed/ Tell em Kash did it, unseen hands too fast with it/Type of cat that'll rip a mic then flip and beat yo ass with it...
-K. Cole

not only do we have aproblem with disrespectin each other, we have a problem with looking our reflections in the mirror. Me, I'm against most feminist theories (white or black feminism) but I do accept the femine culture and am proud to be a part of it. I really do believe that men are people too Not only that, but they have the same complants and problems we have, except in a masculin hue. For example, when a woman hurts a man (whether by playin him or by confusion of what she wants from him) what does he do? He forms this tacky additude/prejudice about all women, and becomes a player. When a man hurts a woman, she has the same reaction, She a) adjust their promiscuity level(up or down) b) forms the classic I dont need a man all men are dogs attitude/prejudice and c) harden thier emotions. Personally I feel that one of the greatest aspects of being a woman is our ability to express, feel and deal with our emotions and the emotions of others, why through it away cuz you've been hurt (men have it to, but women have it better, compare it to white folks and rythm )? I can't speak from a male perspective but I know that there is a masculinity that is lost with the damage of a bad relationship or prejudice of women. Both sexes need to let go tryin so hard to be something to impress the other sex and be something for yourself. Cuz thats the only way you gonna find your mate and know what to do with him/her. When you know whats cool and not cool in yourself and persue it in other people.

But then again... that's just my opinion and it works for me

oh ya, PS Check out my web site yall!!!
Love,
Mera
http://www.jamera.nasha.com

I'm really not pleased with the responses I got at all. I'm not mad. Just really concerned as to why no one wants to talk about this issue. I didn't write this post for kicks. I really need feed-back and dialect badly. I can't let this die with out any good reasoning or dialect. This is some real shit and we need to start talking. Love, Peace, and Life

"Poetry is life, keep on livin'." - Starchild

I rarely come into these boards but I was more interested in what Remymartin was talking about. It just that I read your post before and dicussed it before. I want to respond but I don't know what to say.

Don't get me wrong I agree with Remy and Gift on their points of view. But we all are offering a lot of questions but a few answers or close solutions. My thing is that we just need to put all the negative and positive points on the table. Talk about each in the depth that we can start to listen and hear each other so we can understand and know how to react. Hopefully, what we come up with we can start passing it on to others. Love, Peace, and Life.

"Poetry is life, keep on livin'." -Starchild

..so few replies is because you choose to attempt to dialogue over such a vague and vast topic. You say men and women really need to talk. Really? What do we NEED to talk about that we may or may not be talking about? Then you complain about people not responding as well. I'm not trying to be confrontational but throw something on the table and see what happens. I read the initial post and though to myself 'what are we supposed to reply to this?' I mean the post is more of a statement than a question. Of course I'm slow..so yaknow.


And you gots no respect for me, is that right?
Well jump your ass on the train witcha backpack tight
and keep rappin, I'm floatin past all the stops
In a clean ass Benz I have all the props
Fuck credit from a rapper can you match my Visa
I heard your girlfriend was a real dick pleaser- Todd Shaw

"For the bitches that love dick, and masturbate, no need for that I put it down"- Jay Dee

"Facing Left"- by Jason Moran on Blue Note Records IN STORES NOW!! www.jasonmoran.com

--------------------

blah blah blah

>As black women today, as well
>as minority women, it is
>up to us to change
>the face of feminism and
>the old school belief of
>what being an feminist is.

the white feminist
>movement was not in our
>best interest!

Amen, in some traditional African societies a womans worth is determined by her ability to raise her children, mangage her homestead, and provide support for her husband. In the western feminist thought a woman who stays at home to raise her children and provide a comfortable home for her man is regarded as old fashioned and a thorn in the side of modern womanism. I attribute this belief to the attitudes of most Western men. If a man and woman divorce and the woman was a "stay at home mom", the husband sees no reason why she should get anything from him. After all he went out to work everyday. Forget about the fact that he was able to work because he was fed every morning and each night, he had the comfort of knowing that he "seeds" were being well taken care of, and he had someone to come home to that with a single word or touch could release all of the frustration that comes along with being in corporate America. When women stop fighting to be contruction workers and police people and strt fighting for respect as mothers family mangagers we'll start to cherish these roles and perform them with pride and dignity.

we
>as women have to realize
>that we have more power
>than we choose to believe,
>when it comes to sexism
>and racism If we
>start loving ourselves and our
>sista's more, and showing it,
>and learning not only how
>to love our men, but
>respect them for the people
>that they are and not
>what we want them to
>be, or for what they
>have, men will have no
>other choice but to respect
>us.

The problem here as I see it is that women (esp. Black women) are raised to believe that our worth as people resides between our legs. It burns me when I hear women justify their behavior by saying "we have needs too". Now don't get me wrong I enjoy the company of a brother just like any other woman BUT, I enjoy my self-respect and dignity even more. I have been in a relationship for over 5 years and will soon get married, and until I do I think carefully about giving up control of my body each time the urge hits me. I make my decision based on my mental and spirtiual condition as well as my physical condtiton. And when the time is right..it's all good!
Men have started wars over women. Even David killed a man over a woman. We have so much power, why give it to some rapper dude just so you can "hold his ice".

>Amen, in some traditional African societies >a womans worth is determined >by her ability to raise >her children, mangage her homestead, >and provide support for her >husband. In the western
>feminist thought a woman who >stays at home to raise >her children and provide a >comfortable home for her man >is regarded as old fashioned
>and a thorn in the >side of modern womanism.

I think this is a pretty big generalization (and an incorrect one at that) regarding western feminist thought. More accurately, I think the argument is that women should have the opportunity to work either at home or in public, and that choice shouldn't be based on the gender of the person.



When women >stop fighting to be contruction workers and police people and >strt fighting for respect as >mothers family mangagers we'll start
>to cherish these roles and >perform them with pride and >dignity.

with all due respect, I think this is a pretty weak. Two points
1- women have every right to work as construction workers or police officers or whatever. The fact that they have to (as you put it) fight for these rights is precisely the problem.
2- we should cherish the role of any person who works at home, male or female, and not arbitrarily decide that the woman should be the one staying at home./


Fletch

Your point is well taken...but ask yourself this question...

If Western society put the kind emphasis on the importance of motherhood as it does corporate sucess would we all then be satisfied just being mothers. What's wrong with wanting to be a mother. My mother worked for 25 years because she had to. When I was 20 years old she came to me and apologized for missing out on some very important events in my life because she had to be at work. After talking to her I realized how difficult it was for her to have to put her child in such a position. I ask all of the mothers that visit this site. What's more important your family or your job? And if you had to choose would you fight for better equality in your workplace or equality in your family structure. Now let me say again, I realize many of us have to work...as do I...but if I were given the choice I would gladly volunteer my services to this company for the freedom of being able to watch my family grow and prosper.

Not for me. Always knew it. Thank God I was born at a time when I could take my reproductive destiny into my own hands instead of a time when I was bound to bear children as a by-product of sexual relations, and a time when I could focus on that which I actually find fulfilling rather than being forced into a role that would have been wrong for me.

I acknowledge my personal debt to the feminists who paved the way and I understand that most movements have to begin with a bang or they won't be heard at all. I don't think that anyone is being forced by feminists or by anything other than the economy, their own material desires or other self motivaton, to take jobs or forgo motherhood.

I think there's room for all of it. And I think that was the point of the "Women's Liberation" movement at inception.

This post's caveats: I like children, I just don't want any of my own. I absolutely respect those who bear children, and I figure that the most challenging relationship that anyone can have -- the one with the greatest potential for spiritual growth -- is with one's children. But I do feel pretty strongly that those of us who know that we're not well-suited to be parents are way, way, way better off not doing it than trying to fit in (yes, I said "fit in" because how many women do you know who are willing to say this ish?).

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

damn, just as I hit post on my own message you come along and say it much better . .

knew i should have checked for other responses before I sent my rambling shit

I was just about to post a response to yours saying, wow, you said that better than me and in WAY less words! I go on too long...

Peace

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

..do you have pets?

And you gots no respect for me, is that right?
Well jump your ass on the train witcha backpack tight
and keep rappin, I'm floatin past all the stops
In a clean ass Benz I have all the props
Fuck credit from a rapper can you match my Visa
I heard your girlfriend was a real dick pleaser- Todd Shaw

"For the bitches that love dick, and masturbate, no need for that I put it down"- Jay Dee

"Facing Left"- by Jason Moran on Blue Note Records IN STORES NOW!! www.jasonmoran.com

--------------------

blah blah blah

I have no pets, but I do have animal companions.

But I draw a bright line distinction in the fondness that I have for my animal companions and other people's children, on the one hand, and the desire to bear and nurture offspring of my own.

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

...I've noticed that people who don't have kids/don't want kids almost always replace kids with an overly affectionate relationship with an animal. I think there is something that is inherent in human beings that makes it nurture something, and people who don't have kids end up with 'animal companions'. I'm not passing judgement or anything, but the kids you don't want seem to have manifested themselves as pets you do want.

And you gots no respect for me, is that right?
Well jump your ass on the train witcha backpack tight
and keep rappin, I'm floatin past all the stops
In a clean ass Benz I have all the props
Fuck credit from a rapper can you match my Visa
I heard your girlfriend was a real dick pleaser- Todd Shaw

"For the bitches that love dick, and masturbate, no need for that I put it down"- Jay Dee

"Facing Left"- by Jason Moran on Blue Note Records IN STORES NOW!! www.jasonmoran.com

--------------------

blah blah blah

I think you're right -- that happens a lot, although among the people I know who have lavished child-appropriate affection on their animals, most were quite clear that they wanted children. However, I can speak with some authority on this with respect to myself, at least, because it is me and my own personal experience, and I assure you that I do not mix up my animal companions with children. It's cool to have these funny little creatures around, particularly coming to greet me when I come home, or purring when I pet them, but I don't confuse the signs of affection with true love, particularly at dinner time.

There's actually quite a gulf between affection for animals and that for children. I don't have to dress my cats or worry about their college education or whether they're socializing with their peers properly. I feed them, but not the way you do a baby. I just put their food and water on the floor in a bowl. You wouldn't do that to a child. I don't read to them or encourage them to read more and watch television less, or to join clubs at school. Hell, I don't send them to school. I keep them locked in the house. If my animal companions were children I would be arrested, despite the fact that I am extremely fond of them and treat them well, but in an animal-appropriate manner.

Also, query what becomes of the animals-as-substitutes-for-children theory with respect to people who have both?

I acknowledge that your thoughts contain some truth, but I don't agree that all non-child bearing human companions of animals are using the animals as child substitutes. Nor would I agree that non-child bearing humans without animal companions are naturally unaffectionate. Nor would I agree that all people are meant to be parents. Some are not, and I am happy that I know and accept this about myself rather than not knowing or denying it and bringing a child into this world because of ignorance or guilt. It's better for everyone if those of us who do not see ourselves as parent material don't bear children.

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

..I just read an article on people who don't want kids. The bulk of them seemed slightly maniacal about their choice and hyper-defensive about it as well. (although I totally understand why) Anyway the reason I asked if you had a pet is because I think this is a subconcius act by people who do not have or want kids. To say you don't have to worry about the pets college tuition, what it wears, and feeding it at the table are all moot points simply because they do not come into play when keeping a pet. Keeping a pet and raising a child do not compare, I was simply hypothesizing about childless adults manifesting a subconcious instinct to nurture something. Call me crazy...

And you gots no respect for me, is that right?
Well jump your ass on the train witcha backpack tight
and keep rappin, I'm floatin past all the stops
In a clean ass Benz I have all the props
Fuck credit from a rapper can you match my Visa
I heard your girlfriend was a real dick pleaser- Todd Shaw

"For the bitches that love dick, and masturbate, no need for that I put it down"- Jay Dee

"Facing Left"- by Jason Moran on Blue Note Records IN STORES NOW!! www.jasonmoran.com

--------------------

blah blah blah

you're crazy. J/K sorry.

As someone who has known for some years that I do not want to have children, I can offer my experience that many many people (particularly women) who DO want children appear to find my choice threatening somehow. My sister seriously called me crazy when I told her (granted we were teenagers at the time). When I told a friend/colleague that I had had a tubal ligation, she insisted, and I mean she was vehement, that it must be reversible, otherwise what would I do when I changed my mind?

I don't tell people whether or not to have children, so I don't expect others to do the same for me. But they do. Yeah, so I'll bet sometimes I get to sounding maniacal too. I don't mean to. However, given that my experience has been that when my decision is questioned I'm usually being set up for some sort of quasi-proof that I really do want children OR that there's something wrong with me for not wanting them, it wouldn't be surprising for me to be kind of defensive.

While I didn't read the article you refer to, I would also hypothesize the following. First, if the article is about people who choose not to have children, they are certainly going to be asked to "defend" their position, or at least explain it, just so that the readership can understand where they're coming from. That alone could produce an article in which such people sound defensive. Secondly, you're only hearing about a small portion of their personality by reading that article, just one decision that they've made in a lifetime of decisionmaking. But the article would not be able to really put the decision in context, because the article is ABOUT that decision. See what I'm getting at? So they could appear maniacal or obsessed, but that might be a product of being asked to address a particular issue. Finally, ask yourself where the article appeared. If it appeared in a magazine that has a usual readership of people who have or want children, there may be a negative slant. Even if unintended. At the very least, the article by its existence is saying, "This is an unusual position -- let's explore its justification" which alone is distancing.

I often wonder why it is that we so often find people different from us to be threatening. Why we feel the need to make them wrong, or sick, or mistaken or some such, as though that would make us and our decisions right. Or as if there isn't room in this world for different people to have different feelings and ideas about things. There doesn't have to be one right way about anything.

On the college education, etc., for cats -- I was being somewhat facetious in an attempt to draw a bright line distinction between the affection that I feel for my furry felines and that which most parents feel for their children. Be advised that I sometimes think I'm funny and other people haven't got a clue that I'm making a joke. In addition, I hold other people's children in a completely different light than I do my own animal companions. I don't want to raise their children; they don't want to raise my cats. But I acknowledge their children as small sized human beings and I acknowledge my cats as regular sized animals. That is going to produce all kinds of differences.

So what about people who have both children and animal companions?

Thanks for offering me an opportunity to clarify. Understanding is only achieved through dialogue.

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

as if the previous reply wasn't long enough!

I didn't say that I'm not a nurturing person. I am. I am an extremely loving, nurturing woman. And I consider that to be perhaps the most important aspect of my personality, far and away above intelligence or anything else. I just don't want to raise children of my own. That's all.

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

..and I hope you didn't get the impression that I was trying to put down your decision by any means. The article also mentioned how this one lady wanted to get het tubes tied and she had to go to a couple of doctors before she could find one who didn't try to talk her out of it or send her to a psychologist first. When someone tells me that they don't want kids, I totally understand the logic behind it.

If this link works, take a look at it when you get a chance. (you made some good points about where the article was coming from) Tell me what you think.

http://www.nytimes.com/library/magazine/home/20000723mag-kids.html
And you gots no respect for me, is that right?
Well jump your ass on the train witcha backpack tight
and keep rappin, I'm floatin past all the stops
In a clean ass Benz I have all the props
Fuck credit from a rapper can you match my Visa
I heard your girlfriend was a real dick pleaser- Todd Shaw

"For the bitches that love dick, and masturbate, no need for that I put it down"- Jay Dee

"Facing Left"- by Jason Moran on Blue Note Records IN STORES NOW!! www.jasonmoran.com

--------------------

blah blah blah

The link didn't work (they wanted me to subscribe before they would let me on), but it tells me a lot that the article was in the NY Times. As you probably noticed, I was a bit suspicious of the source, but I do have greater trust in the objectivity of the NY Times.

When I was 18, convinced that I did not want children and not convinced that I wanted to use the birth control pill, I tried to arrange for a tubal ligation & my doctor wouldn't do it, because he was sure that I would change my mind. I didn't. Years later I one day awoke to the fact that I was old enough to be taken seriously and I got the ligation. In California, there is a legal requirement that consent to a tubal ligation be given at least 30 days prior to the surgery. This is in order to prevent coercion (there was some evidence that women -- particularly poor women with more than one child -- were being coerced into receiving ligations against their will or with impaired consent, during childbirth related procedures by doctors who presumptuously believed themselves to be doing these women a service. The 30 day requirement also provides women who make the decision suddenly, because of mishaps in their lives, some cooling off period during which they can change their minds). So I went for my initial consult with the surgeon who would perform the surgery, and she asked me my rationale for the ligation. I gave it to her, much more succinctly than I usually express myself on these boards, and she said, "You sound like you've thought this through a lot more than many women I see. Let's see, shall we schedule the surgery for 30 days from now?" I walked out of her office feeling as though I had been heard, really heard, for the first time.

All those years people would say to me "Oh, you'll change your mind." Think about something that you know about yourself. Just any old opinion that you've held consistently all your life. Like, let's say, you love strawberries. Or you love to read fiction. Or you feel strongly about the rights of the accused. Now imagine that any time the question arose -- and it wouldn't come up all that often, but it would come up every now and then -- and people were expressing their opinions and asking yours, whenever that happened and you said, "I love to read fiction" imagine if EVERY TIME that happened, someone said to you, "Oh, you'll change your mind about THAT as you get older."

Every time. I got to wondering at some point who I would be if I were a person who wanted children. I mean, it's not the only thing that defines my personality, but it is a part of me. Who would I be if that changed?

Having that experience repeated often over the course of years taught me a lot about respect and empowerment.

Thanks for listening.

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

I agree with you that Western society greatly undervalues work done in the home, and I agree that an increased respect for work done in the home is an important part of any change in values.

But the above does not necessarily mean that women should choose to work at home versus working outside of the home. To the extent economics doesn't require both parents to work (sadly these days most have to), I think the decision is an individual one, and there is no reason why a woman should stay at home to take care of children anymore than a man should.

Fletch

she shouldn't have to, but human nature will cause her more pain to be away from her children each day than men...classically...(don't take this the wrong way), but there's a reason why a woman has breasts...no not that...feeding...the woman is supposed to care for her children...don't take this as me saying women should stay at home, cuz i'm not like that at all...i'm saying...a woman going to work each day is going to (generally speaking)miss her children more so than a man ((although there are some sensative, babylovin' brotha's out there...myself included...not just puttin' in a good word for myself...but speakin the truth))who goes to work everyday...which is why i have great respect for a woman that can overcome those emotions and go to work, cuz no matter how hard her day was, she's still gonna love her kids to death...may not show it all the time...but that's the mentality that women have, face it guys...we don't really stack up..
peace
w/ love
dave

in remembrance of simmon

OKAYoungins - Givin You True Youth Since (11/12)2000

dj_teddy_bear - daveyg - zero - DROots - albinomexican - illnes - okaymattd - HomerILLiad404 - OkayBrazilian - Essaywhuman - HersheyBit - Preach - brown_thought - naame - akw

that this is an opinion and not a statement of fact.

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

k girl...that's my opinion...which happens to be
strongly supported w/ psychologists..
peace
w/ love
dave

in remembrance of simmon

OKAYoungins - Givin You True Youth Since (11/12)2000

dj_teddy_bear - daveyg - zero - DROots - albinomexican - illnes - okaymattd - HomerILLiad404 - OkayBrazilian - Essaywhuman - HersheyBit - Preach - brown_thought - naame - akw

it's also okay with me if you say "in a poll conducted by 1,000 psychologists nationwide, a whopping 65% of women reported that they were 'distraught' upon leaving their children to return to work. Interestingly, the same poll showed that only 25% of men used the word 'distraught' to report their discomfort, while 38% said that they were 'disturbed.'" See the difference?

I'm just not crazy with having someone tell me what my emotions were "created" to be or "designed" to be. And frankly, how would a psychologist know how my emotions were "created"? Psychologists aren't qualified to report on my internal structure ab initio -- the best they can do is report what they see or what is reported to them. I seriously doubt that you can cite any hard scientific data to support your theory that women feel separation anxiety more strongly than men, or that, if they do, it has to do with the way women are designed as opposed to the way they are acculturated.


Peace

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

I got kind of busy today. I will try to respond if I don't get in too late tonite. I can't think of the persons name now, but I want to respond to the statement that, a person said then didn't know what to write about after reading my post. Believe me it's much deeper than what I wrote. I just meant that as an ice braker. We can really get down to it when I reply, hopefully tonite. Love, Peace, and Life.
"Poetry is life, keep on livin'."

it's also okay with me if you say "in a poll conducted by 1,000 psychologists nationwide, a whopping 65% of women reported that they were 'distraught' upon leaving their children to return to work. Interestingly, the same poll showed that only 25% of men used the word 'distraught' to report their discomfort, while 38% said that they were 'disturbed.'" See the difference?

I'm just not crazy with having someone tell me what my emotions were "created" to be or "designed" to be. And frankly, how would a psychologist know how my emotions were "created"? Psychologists aren't qualified to report on my internal structure ab initio -- the best they can do is report what they see or what is reported to them. I seriously doubt that you can cite any hard scientific data to support your theory that women feel separation anxiety more strongly than men, or that, if they do, it has to do with the way women are designed as opposed to the way they are acculturated.


Peace

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

hey...sorry bout the feelings or anything...i got off on a tangent this afternoon...well whatever...but how come noone has replied to my post below which i am most proud of..i'm assumin' you all agree w/ my opinion then?
peace
w/ love
dave

in remembrance of simmon

OKAYoungins - Givin You True Youth Since (11/12)2000

dj_teddy_bear - daveyg - zero - DROots - albinomexican - illnes - okaymattd - HomerILLiad404 - OkayBrazilian - Essaywhuman - HersheyBit - Preach - brown_thought - naame - akw

hey...sorry bout the feelings or anything...i got off on a tangent this afternoon...well whatever...but how come noone has replied to my post below which i am most proud of..i'm assumin' you all agree w/ my opinion then?
peace
w/ love
dave

in remembrance of simmon

OKAYoungins - Givin You True Youth Since (11/12)2000

dj_teddy_bear - daveyg - zero - DROots - albinomexican - illnes - okaymattd - HomerILLiad404 - OkayBrazilian - Essaywhuman - HersheyBit - Preach - brown_thought - naame - akw

here's my thoughts on THE TOPIC AT HAND
well...i don't know how many of y'all are christians...but the woman of the bible and the ideal woman man relationship is described in there, some feminists take it the wrong way...and scew what it says...but if ya wanna talk 'bout that write...
here's my deal...
respect yourself...respect will follow
beauty is loving yourself and feeling comfortable w/ your style personality and traits(good/bad)...if you get to see yourself in a beautiful way...and respect that beauty...
you will be less likely to throw your booty away to a one night fling...lessening the respect you will recieve in the future....
like me for example...i've been tryin for awhile now to get tight....open relationships w/ some of my lady friends in the world....::
it's all about understanding...we aren't that different if we allow it to be that way...but it's hard and it takes time...and we're all to damn lazy...it's cool if it works though...if you get close to like a coupla' friends of the opposite gender your brain starts thinkin in different ways..you can analyze situations more fully...henceforth...allowing you to find the one...i don't know if this is what you were looking for at all, but it sounded good to me..peace
w/ love
dave

in remembrance of simmon

OKAYoungins - Givin You True Youth Since (11/12)2000

dj_teddy_bear - daveyg - zero - DROots - albinomexican - illnes - okaymattd - HomerILLiad404 - OkayBrazilian - Essaywhuman - HersheyBit - Preach - brown_thought - naame - akw

Allright, I hate to respond to two separate posts in one, but they kind of string together.

First of all, the "pain" that you refer women having, I don't see how that is relevant at all. If it is, it goes something like this: Women are taught by society that their main role is to take care of children. If they choose not to do this they may feel unsure about their actions. Is that because working outside the house is wrong or improper or unnatural? Hell no, it is because for such a long time now society has been pushing the idea that if there are children then it is a woman's role to take care of them. That may be why some women would feel the "pain" of working outside the home, and it has nothing to do with who should stay home and take care of the kids.

Second, you say the bible has the ideal man-woman relationship. What do you mean by that? Is this some sort of "servant leadership" type relationship? I admit that I have limited experience with the bible, but what I remember about it definitely had the woman in a subservient position.


Fletch

Women aren't necessarily 'taught' by society that they should rear children, I think it is inherent within their make-up. The maternal instinct, that isn't some bullshit made up to account for the sometimes worrisome nature of a woman, it is obviously something that is legitimate and a lot of women feel.

And you gots no respect for me, is that right?
Well jump your ass on the train witcha backpack tight
and keep rappin, I'm floatin past all the stops
In a clean ass Benz I have all the props
Fuck credit from a rapper can you match my Visa
I heard your girlfriend was a real dick pleaser- Todd Shaw

"For the bitches that love dick, and masturbate, no need for that I put it down"- Jay Dee

"Facing Left"- by Jason Moran on Blue Note Records IN STORES NOW!! www.jasonmoran.com

--------------------

blah blah blah

I think daveg was right on point! Think about it: Women are MADE read: CREATED to take care of children. If a child is without his mother within the first 6 months to a year of life he/she will die from starvation. All mammals require the nutrition that comes from a mothers breast in order to survive. I guess if you want you could feed a child some synthetic substance i.e similac (sp) but it still will not provide a child with the necessary nutrients needed to be strong and healthy. Therefore the woman/female is the one who should be taking care of the child. I'm done!
Peace and Love
h

> Women are MADE read: >CREATED to take care of
>children.

Therefore the woman/female >is the one who should
>be taking care of the >child.

And you wonder why men feel perfectly fine ditching out on obligations to children that they raise. . . .

Sorry for the first post, hit return too quickly.

What I meant to say in full is that there seems to be a link between this whole "woman are made/created to take care of children" argument and the fact that we feel that fathers are not in the picture enough, either in their actual presence, the provision of financial support, or providing emotional support.

If we want to accept this woman are the only persons to take care of the child argument (which I don't accept), then we have to accept it's consequence, which is that men don't feel that it is their responsibility to take as great a role in the nurturing and development in that child. Sorry, but that is not something that I am willing to accept.

Fletch

you got it all mixed up....the man is supposed to support and help raise the child...but the childs main care giver...especially when the child is young....becuz of the makeup...women are blessed w/ a caring nature...that sorry to say...most men are not...that doesn't mean the men shouldn't try...but i was replying to say that a women doesn't have to stay at home anymore than a man does which i agree to except if there is a newborn child, which in that case i don't see the mother ditching her child to go to work to leave her husband which society has labeled as insensitive and coldhearted...to take care of her newborn...i don't buy it...if you're gonna say that women have been given the label by society. that they have to stay home...can't you agree then, that men have also been give the label that i described(cold hearted insensitive?) i don't know i just don't think we see the same way...
peace
w/ love
dave

in remembrance of simmon

OKAYoungins - Givin You True Youth Since (11/12)2000

dj_teddy_bear - daveyg - zero - DROots - albinomexican - illnes - okaymattd - HomerILLiad404 - OkayBrazilian - Essaywhuman - HersheyBit - Preach - brown_thought - naame - akw

>buy it...if you're gonna say >that women have been given >the label by society. that >they have to stay home...can't >you agree then, that men >have also been give the >label that i escribed(cold hearted >insensitive?)

I agree that men have at times been given that label, but the point is that both parents (if possible) should have a concern for raising that child and should equally participate in it. My point was that the general assumption that a woman should stay home and a man should work does not fit for me. I think that the choice should be made by either, and both owe the same amount of caring and concern to the child.


Fletch

exactly what i was tryin to get across

in remembrance of simmon

OKAYoungins - Givin You True Youth Since (11/12)2000

dj_teddy_bear - daveyg - zero - DROots - albinomexican - illnes - okaymattd - HomerILLiad404 - OkayBrazilian - Essaywhuman - HersheyBit - Preach - brown_thought - naame - akw

White feminist movement is not the blame of "relationship woes" of black men & women ?
The black woman since her arrival in america has been the primary parent to the black family.

During slavery her family was often sold or taken away from her. Her husband was also sold & taken away from her.

After slavery two world wars, Jim Crow , lynching,
drugs, great depression, discrimination and other factors have taken the black man from her.

There are generations of fatherless children , single motherhood is nothing new in our community.

We need to ask the question how do we put the black man , back as our partner our worlds.


I disagree with "the I don't need a man theory".
I am a loving , intelligent and independent (taught to me by my daddy) black woman.I love to find a black man that isn't trying to take advantage of my kindness and one that is on my intellectual level.

i feel you

in remembrance of simmon

OKAYoungins - Givin You True Youth Since (11/12)2000

dj_teddy_bear - daveyg - zero - DROots - albinomexican - illnes - okaymattd - HomerILLiad404 - OkayBrazilian - Essaywhuman - HersheyBit - Preach - brown_thought - naame - akw

i feel you

in remembrance of simmon

OKAYoungins - Givin You True Youth Since (11/12)2000

dj_teddy_bear - daveyg - zero - DROots - albinomexican - illnes - okaymattd - HomerILLiad404 - OkayBrazilian - Essaywhuman - HersheyBit - Preach - brown_thought - naame - akw

First off, me being a feminist doesn't mean that I'm a man hater. I personally love and have much respect for all black men and women. My point is to get dialect going between men and women so we won't be enemies. Don't get me work, I not once said that we could place blame on the white feminist movement for all the woes of the black male female relationship. But just like everything you mentioned, white feminism has taken a noticable toll on the black male female relationship as well. I still hold my point that the white feminist movement was not in the best interest of black women or the black family. The attitude of I don't need a man comes from black women being hurt over the years and the white feminist movement screaming, "I AM WOMAN HEAR ME ROAR, I'M NOT MUCH TO BE INGNORED". Now that for the most part is true. But some black women took that ish so literally. To the point where we got sista's that make brotha's feel worthless because of financial status. We feel like they have nothing more to offer than just money, sexual support, or something nice to have on our arms. We are starting to loose ground ladies. The role of the Superhuman Black Woman is killing our family structure slowly along with other elements such as, AIDS, drugs, random acts of violence, and the prison system. This myth carried on from the days of slavery just to justify the foul treatmant of the black woman. We as women are starting to become to masculine in our attitudes and that ish isn't good for any of us. I feel that we should return to some traditional roles for the sake of the family and our future. The respect level between us is so low right now and our seeds are picking up on this attitude. That's why I feel that it's up to us to change the face of feminism, and what people think a feminist is. We love and respect our men. We love and respect our families. We love and respect our sista's and botha's. We are concerned about the condition of our relationships and families. Love, Peace, and Life.
"Poetry is life, keep on livin'."

of your previous statement. i'ma say that there's something called nature vs. nurture, i may take this out of context but, there is the fact that women are by nature the primary caregivers for the child. the parents are together supposed to nurture the child...now ya'll gotta answer me this.


what is a man's purpose in being around the child if he can't do anything but provide sperm, emotional and financial support?

and once that is answered, what values do the children gather from women/mothers/female figures that they don't get from fathers/males/male figures?

peace

what we have is much more than they can see. - george benson

America has imported more warlord theocracy from Afghanistan than it has exported democracy.

>
>what is a man's purpose in
>being around the child if
>he can't do anything but
>provide sperm, emotional and financial
>support?
>
Support comes in many different forms...financial is just one...Men can also provide emotional suppport. Men are responsible for teaching young boys how to be men (providers, protectors, fair and respectful leaders)...and to teach young girls how to respect themselves and what to expect from a man in her life. (as a young girl growing up without a father around, I can't stress enough how important this lesson is!), not to mention protect her from the sex-crazed young men that come a courtin'

>and once that is answered, what
>values do the children gather
>from women/mothers/female figures that they
>don't get from fathers/males/male figures?
>
women provide warmth and compassion...I've always found it easier to go cry on the shoulder of my mother than my grandfather (the male in my life.
>

hep

> For my women all
>the shit we have been
>fed by the white feminist
>movement was not in our
>best interest! You can
>still be a woman, indenpendant
>and still love and respect
>your man.

I have to make a defense of the 'white' feminist movement. Please be careful who and what you demonize as completely irrelevant and harmful to you. I compltely agree that some of what the 'white' feminist movement spoke upon and urged would be in opposition that that which you seak, but the type of feminism that spoke of ending relations with men was only a part of what the feminist movements prior to today were speaking on.

The white male dominated and controlled media likes to demonize anything that runs controversy to that which it needs to enforce the hegomony that benefits the white man. This of course includes Women's liberation movements, Black liberation and Gay Rights.

If you read extensively into the many, many fronteirs and landscapes of 'white' feminism, you would find that a lot of it asks for the same things you ask for. Please do not discard what could be a wealth of information for you because of a judgemental belief that the pages of said book hold nothing of any relevance to you.

I say this as a student of Women's studies in engerland in the late 90's and please know that what I was shown, taught and read did not relate primarily to 'white' women.

Peace,

Tank

Attention Vinyl Junkies - http://www.recordkingdom.com/

"In the path of our happiness shall we find the learning for which we have chosen this lifetime." Richard Bach, Illusions

"As do many strong people, she had found herself a victim of the tyranny of the weak." Tom Robbins, Even Cowgirls Get the Blues

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"It's easy to blur the truth with a simple linguistic trick: start your story from "Secondly."" -- Mourid Barghouti

For an interesting persepctive on this subject check out the book When Chicken Heads Come To Roost by Joan Morgan

Bugged out quote of the month: "I was in Haiti with the Fugees about three years ago. I miss the water. When I was 6 years old, I saw a mermaid in Haiti. She was banging, speaking Creole. I went toward the water, she turned around, and I just saw the fins go up." - Wyclef Jean in August 2000 Vibe

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Homepage: http://members.theglobe.com/reality_76

"If you want to wash, you use water
If you want to cook soup, you use water
If your head is hot, water cools it off
If your child is to grow, it needs water
Even if water kills your child, you'll still use water:
Nothing without water
Water has no enemy: You don't fight him unless you want to die..."-Fela Kuti

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It'll stay in your head long after I'm physically gone"- Talib Kweli

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--------
<--------- my cousin
www.richardlouissaint.com
photobloggin' it:
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Peace,

Tank

Attention Vinyl Junkies - http://www.recordkingdom.com/

"In the path of our happiness shall we find the learning for which we have chosen this lifetime." Richard Bach, Illusions

"As do many strong people, she had found herself a victim of the tyranny of the weak." Tom Robbins, Even Cowgirls Get the Blues

---
"It's easy to blur the truth with a simple linguistic trick: start your story from "Secondly."" -- Mourid Barghouti

Had the book for a really long time. In the mist of this topic, I'm re-reading it. Good lookin'. Love, Peace, and Life.
"Poetry is life, keep on livin'."

so goes the nation


This is definitely going in the right direction no doubt about it…
We must as African men and women understand the value we hold individually and collectively…
Feminism is an effin joke!
No matter how much you have heard a woman say ” I don’t need no man” it will never be true… and the same goes for brothas… we infact do NEED each other.
There are certain roles that must be played by the man and woman in order to ensure a peaceful and productive coexistence.
BUT we must be very realistic about how we go about healing this disease
Everything must start with the way that our children are raised… that should be our main focus

We need each other…
I cant stress that enough! the concept of balance can be identified throughout the universe… and u better believe that it is symbolized by man and woman … for there is no combination on earth more beautiful




as i paint to the wind's breath
freestyle to my footsteps
and create till the heartbeat's got no rhythm left...
-archangel_500years

So my path switches
Now devoted to uncovering all the glitches
That they left when they tried to hide my past
Under vast lies and advertisement pitches
So I dig deeper than subterranean level ditches
Deeper than the seeds of hate planted over those of vitality
Deeper than the hole I dug my self in when I was slaving for a salary
Deeper than the sin soil that his roots were cowardly planted in
Deep enough to find my soul again
And bring an end to confusion and fallacy
I must go deeper
-Amina NiaRa (deeper existence)