Credit HoChiGrimm and HueyShakur for this one. I know it's going to lead to a migraine, as I vehemently disagreed with their assessments in another thread, but with this quote - which is very observant, I think - let's get this poppin'.

"First off, i think that love is an extremely political act yet it's one that is often exercised but not seen as political. folk will argue about the significance of "romantic love" but fail to go beyond that.

what is love? seriously.

a lot of us walk around here theorizing about love relationships but no one offers a political understanding.

and we all know everything is political."

- HueyShakur

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

imma sit back and watch for a minute. see what develops.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

love is that feeling I get when I come home late from my office and my girl is there lookin at me and all she says is
'welcome home.'

the best feeling in the world.
as far as politicizing (I'm off on my spelling today so I'ma say EFF IT!!) it I cannot give you an answer except the feeling you get when you look into someones eyes, and you feel invincible and totally insignificant at the same time.
I'm babbling so feel free to ignore, just waiting to get home.

***********************************
StLOKp's�: DawgEatah, Dstl1, hyde, Colonel Sanders, MisterGrump, Afrotec, Instant_Vintage, ThaTruth, Soul1908, SefConscious, Baldheadslik, YngblkprinceMD, 314confidential, rdiggity, Kid

Honorable mention:auragin_boi

dammit.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

state ya beef.

you got into with HoChi, not I.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

I think it's very easy to politicize an intangible like 'love'.

I'm married to a black woman - and that is constantly categorized, scrutinized, and fucked with as some sort of statement, but sadly, I'm just crazy about the woman who's with me. I understand the fetish argument, but it isn't the umbrella under which all 'mixed' relationships fall.

That's my thesis statement. If you want details, inbox, because my business isn't for everyone.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

external politics. politics is everpresent in all relationships, they are fundamental to the process.

there are political decisions, wise or unwise, that govern things like romance, fucking, courtship, etc.

we need to acknowledge it and work for there.

that's what i'm saying.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

>external politics. politics is everpresent in all
>relationships, they are fundamental to the process.

Psychological/ego-based and spiritual-based love are two different things. Before I even knew people I knew love...I knew spirit. Not all relationships are ego-based or political. I am old enough to have had several temporary psychological relationships and my goal is find spiritual partners. Sex is sex, romance is romance but spirit is peace.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

with the experience card.

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<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

But at the same time, whilst a marriage can be political in itself, and have political meaning outwardly, there can be something deeper and more personal going on underneath...

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

>I think it's very easy to politicize an intangible like
>'love'.

yes.

>I'm married to a black woman - and that is constantly
>categorized, scrutinized, and fucked with as some sort of
>statement, but sadly, I'm just crazy about the woman who's
>with me. I understand the fetish argument, but it isn't the
>umbrella under which all 'mixed' relationships fall.

That's very honest. The fact that you speak on such open terms says a lot about your understanding of the subject, and your wife's character (I presume). The "statement/fetish" label seems to be constantly ignored by most of the mixed couples I have come across (while simultaneously knowing that they themselves and everyone around are aware of it). To me, it seems that when these labels are actually confronted (and let's be real, in most cases the label has definite merit, which is why most mixed couples--those who are the reason for the label's existence--are too ashamed to confront it, lest their "secret" be exposed), it leaves those who wish to judge in a realm of ambiguous, babbling rebuttle (like the rebuttles to your post) because these labels, while often true, absolutely DO NOT lie true with all mixed couples. Therefore, the bottom line is, we have to reserve judgement on mixed couples, because whether or not they're "authentic", it is none of our business, simply on the basis that they may very well be real. Props for your confrontation.

peace,

***I'm a Child of Production***

Because also, how can you gage if they are any MORE 'genuine' than any other marriage? Plenty of homogenous marriages happen for the wrong reasosn - thus the present divorce rate. That's why I think a politicized exploration of these relationships is foolish - statistics don't investigate the nuances behind them.

I wonder HoChi ducked this thread... he's usually pretty engaging about topics like this. He's good in a debate... a shame.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

That's why I think a politicized exploration
>of these relationships is foolish - statistics don't
>investigate the nuances behind them.

i'm not talking about "statistical" understanding. i'm talking about having a political analysis of choices made in "love relationships," wise or unwise. we live in a politicized world, both on micro and macro levels. so to ignore that politics are intrinsic to all relationships is actually foolish and and adhering to bourgeois notions of love and sex.

you can't resist most bourgeois understandings and adhere to their notions of love and sex.

that's all i'm saying.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

>i'm not talking about "statistical" understanding. i'm
>talking about having a political analysis of choices made in
>"love relationships," wise or unwise.

Okay. That I can understand. I guess I wasn't clear. Could you give some examples, though? Sort of a means of measurement? Something to compare to?

> we live in a
>politicized world, both on micro and macro levels. so to
>ignore that politics are intrinsic to all relationships is
>actually foolish and and adhering to bourgeois notions of
>love and sex.

So what you're saying is decisions made WITHIN a relationship, not necasarily a politicization of the relationship itself. Tell me if I'm unclear. Because that's some shit I could go into for HOURS.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

*scrathes head*

a means of measurement? hmm, well something like this is hardly quantifiable and qualifying it is also rather difficult.

i'm working with an understanding that all of us are political beings that make choices which effect the individulal and the collective. and at the same time, we must also interact with a political world exterior to the self. with that, each of us has a position in society to work from and articulate a situation.

here's an example that's off topic. a fourteen Black teen gives birth. yet, that statement breeds so many assumptions and conclusions all based in a political understandings. here's some: a) why is she having a child so young? b) who is going to take care of that child? c) why is a fourteen year old having sex in the first place? d) damn! another Black child is born out of wedlock. e) kids these days are so fast, f) who's the daddy? and the list goes on. but the reality is that since this teen is of a certain maturity, anatomically, child bearing is a possibility. all the rest is politics. you'll probably have some folk just happy to have another Black life brought into the world. it runs the gamut.

people choose to be in a "love relationship" and consciously choose their mate(s). so there has to be a politics of love/attraction/courtship. my hunch is that since it's not a comfortable thing to talk about folk pretend to live in romantic la-la land.

in short, i'm saying that ALL relationships are political, both amongst partners and from outsiders looking in/at. so feel free to share. LOL. i'm all eyes.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

If you are saying that in order for us to have any relationship it is necescary(sp) for it to involve politics. then it is also true that the decision to date within one's race is also a political decision. if so then that decision seems to be a little less strong an argument. first you would have to argue for race ie that we all different and that race is one of the categories, once you have defined race however you so choose physical mental cultural whatever. if you do that, it is not a far run to evaluating those differences based on race. from there easy to move to judging what qualities of said race are better. and then to which race is superior. just using my handy dandy slippery slope.
another thing is that if you do limit who you date aren't you in some way giving power to the "MAN" in that it is all his construct anyway, arent you reacting to the racism in a way that is limiting your own choices, thus limiting your own freedom.

i'm not saying to "involve" politics, i'm saying that the politics are already there. you can choose to ignore them and buy into false notions of romance or you can confront them head on.

yes, all relationships are political. interracial, intraracial, and otherwise. all people are politicized from the womb, this is particularly true for Black folk.

this aint PC but we are all different (i'm not talking about biologically, even though Black folk have known that human beings have little biologically different for centuries, but i digress). now you can throw all the crazy scenarios at me but a Black dude from a Black neighborhood is different from a white chick from a white neighborhood. there's no denying it.

i'll be the last person to argue racial superiority because i'm keenly aware of what that has done to Black people. so i'd never use an imposed argument to justify my own and my peoples subjugation to justify another people's.

what i will say though is that as a Black people we can choose to embrace our need, both individually and collectively, to reclaim our political insurgency or we can "look beyond politics." i'm suggesting that "looking beyond politics" is looking beyond Black people and our urgent need for survival/uplift. it's like being a firefighter you can choose to suit up and save the burning building or you can walk away. but walking away ensures the building's demise.

i get the point you trying to make but i'm really tired of the argument that by choosing to be in a intraracial relationship that you are limiting your options and letting the "MAN" win. PLEASE! the best way to give the "man" victory is to be complicit in the annihilation of Black people.

peace.

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<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

Pretty much!

---------------------------------
Do it girl

add on, brotha.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

If read this right, tell me if my example holds water - because I really wanna get this right.

Me and my wife don't want to affect property values, attract scrutiny, or deal with bullshit because we're 'THE MIXED COUPLE', so we move to a Puerto rican neighborhood, where nobody gives a fuck.

is that the sort of political dimension you mean?

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

umm...no.

simple put.

everyone has a type. sometimes folk front something else as their type but when it comes down to it there are commonalities between the folk an individual dates throughout her/his lifetime. i'm arguing that "a type" is purely political. nothing less, nothing more.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

what if your type, and imma use freud here, is like your mother cause i have had that said about me. now, if i am looking for someone who resembles my mother, what characteristics am i going to be looking for now? now from the outset you say that we are politicised, but i would argue that those first years, the ones that are supposed to be so formative, we have little knowledge of race. in my case due to segragation. so i know my mother not as a race, but as a person, as a personality, as my representation of unconditional female love. now, subconicously could i possibly be looking for a race. no i would argue that i am looking for a personality maybe a smell, who knows but i may not be looking for a race. course this all depends on how you view freud.

i know you made the comparison about the burning building and all, but what if what is best for me is to marry someone outside of the race. lets just say that that person is not black like me. does that somehow make me wrong and where and when do we draw the line for self preservation. there are alot of radical black revs from the sixties that are in dire staights, but you odn't see the race steppin up to help them out. the race is fine, but in the end of the day they aren't going to make me feel warm and special and all those things the right woman makes you feel.

granted there are a lot of people who are making a political statement by who they are dating or married to, but i would go so far as to say that those people are the people who "only date". whether that only is white women, black men, asian women, latino, whatever the "only" is, whether it is intra or inter. i think that then you are definitely looking at someone who is suffering from the effects of politicized love. now if someone is an equal opportunity person then i would see that as actually a little less political. i am not talking about just having sex but having commited relationships. there are plenty of people who will mess with someone from outside of their race, but would never marry a person outside of their race right. those people also would be afflicted.
oh and speaking of interacial dating did you check out the marcus pics.

okay, i think we're knitpicking.

my general point is this...all of us are political beings. politics, like all things in a social setting, are imposed. language is political, interactions are political, everything we do is political. little babies are political beings the choice they make are because of the political reactions made by adults.

with that i'm saying that if you are a political being and interact in a political environment your entire life, how is "love" somehow exempt from politics?

there are
>alot of radical black revs from the sixties that are in dire
>staights, but you odn't see the race steppin up to help them
>out.

this is a cop out. BLACK PEOPLE are in dire staits, you can't escapet that reality.

the truth is folk will use the romantic love argument because it's a convenient explanation despite the race of the partners.

ALL RELATIONSHIPS HAVE A BASIS IN POLITICS!

choosing to not marry outside your race is much like choosing to be a vegan. sure you can no longer have steak or hamburgers, but guess what? you'll never get mad cow.

it's a conscious decision. just like a Black person being with a white person.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

Now I get it. Thanks for taking that long walk through to get me there.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

>Now I get it. Thanks for taking that long walk through to
>get me there.

what's your opinion?

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

... that love influences personal policy. To an extent, yes, of course, politics infects all vectors of life, but - speaking only personally, you understand - but I think the kind of you're relationship you're in effects EXTERNAL behavior and choices more than INTERNAL, y'understand? Like I said, though, my wife and I are sort of a weird case, so perhaps these types of lessons don't pertain to everyone.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

don't cop out with the exception to the rule argument.

man up. LOL. if you think my argument is bullshit let it be known and offer a rebuttal.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

Dag. You shoulda been my football coach. Shit.

Then no, I stand by the initial statement: I think politics affects the external policy of a sincere loving relationship - not the MECHANICS. I speak from personal experience, having lead my relationship undernearly constant external political duress (except when we were back home in the Bronx, where literally nobody gave a fuck). It has effected us insofar as we muist carefully choose where we live, which can in turn loop into INTERNAL stress, as neither one of us are happy, but... that's the second paragraph of my thesis.

DEBUNK ME, DAMMIT!

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

distinguish, for me, between "external policy" and "mechanics"? (and please refrain from romanticizing it.)

what person doesn't carefully choose housing (or whatever)?

i remember when i was applying to colleges if the Black population was less than 6% the school automatically did not make my short list. i live in queens and there are certain sections that i'd never think of moving to namely Ozone Park, Howard Beach, Bell Harbor, Bayside, etc.

i'm still not seeing how you don't see the political dynamics with your relationship.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

>distinguish, for me, between "external policy" and
>"mechanics"? (and please refrain from romanticizing it.)

By 'external policy' I mean who we deal with collectively, where we go, how we carry ourselves together, who we jointly allow in our homes and lives.

'Mechanics' meaning the dailiy interface. I can safely say the political dimension has never invaded the bedroom or morning bathroom rituals.

On the other hand, when I used to get into fist fights on my way home from work with local NOI or AKAs, that was a different situation, there were certain concerns which followed us home. In that way, external policy influenced internal politics.


>what person doesn't carefully choose housing (or whatever)?

Homogenous couples. If you are an all-black/white/hispanic couple, the choices are easier, because there are homogenous communities that exist to support you. In a mixed couple, you are limited because of backlash. We lived in Kingsbridge, which is diverse enough to accomodate anyone, but we'd never be bale to pull that off in Throgs Neck, Schuylerville, Harlem, Whitestone, Howard Beach, Bensonhurst, or any other homogenous communities. Think about the diversity of Flushing vs. Ozone Park. There is also the reality of violence: we met in Cleveland, Ohio, where we pretty much under constant threat of violence from Black fraternities, cops, Black Muslims and skinheads. D.C. is segregated enough where that threat has sort of renewed, so in order to remain together, again, we must be very careful where we live.

Our presence also affects property values, in some cases, meaning we have t be conscious of where we're looking. My man is married to a white woman. They live in Kensington, BK (around Flatbush), where a real estate broker basically told them that mixed couple send up signal flares to white people and gays that the community is tolerant and safe, meaning they are free to move in - and suddenly you've created a hot spot. They bought their duplex for 60K three years back - it's now worth 320, and the neighborhood went from Orthodox Jews, Pakistanis, Egyptians, and W. Indians to white, gay hipsters.

So that's the political dimension of loving and living space.

>i remember when i was applying to colleges if the Black
>population was less than 6% the school automatically did not
>make my short list. i live in queens and there are certain
>sections that i'd never think of moving to namely Ozone
>Park, Howard Beach, Bell Harbor, Bayside, etc.
>
>i'm still not seeing how you don't see the political
>dynamics with your relationship.

I do. You're missing the point: as political a union as a white jew and black woman is, we haven't let it INUNDATE the relationship. If we saw each other as no more than our ethnic identities - as opposed to that being a PART of a greater whole - than we never would have married. The politics is only a small part of the relationship, along with appreciation of loyalty, shared resources, emotional support, joint finances, common interests; etc.

Or am I still on the wrong track with you?

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

your experience sounds like some movie ish.

i've never observed or heard of Black people ATTACKING a mixed couple for no reason as they walk the neighborhood. but hey, i guess you never know. i do remember this one time though, as a student, when this white dude that was dating someone Black in a drunken stupor said something to the effect of "man, I get so much Black pussy" to a group of Black dudes outside the bar. i don't need to detail the whooping the ensued.

i've came to this position from experience. every last Black person i know that dates white folk has issues with their own Blackness. not little issues but fundamental shit. this one dude (this was the most absurd thing i'd ever heard) told me one of the reasons that he liked his white girlfriend (who he was dating for TWO years) because of her hair. he said: "i love how soft her hair is and that her how soft fingers through it." sorry, but that reeks of colonization and self-hate.

so when it came down to it every last person i had spoken to told me one of the main reason they were dating their white partner had something to do with that person's whiteness.

do you see the conflict?

how can you be a Black person that longs for your partner's whiteness? you are either delusional or politically off?

i think that its a combination of both.

it's sorta like how eldrigde cleaver raped Black women to practice how to rape white women. some deeprooted crazy self-hate and misogyny.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

>your experience sounds like some movie ish.
>
>i've never observed or heard of Black people ATTACKING a
>mixed couple for no reason as they walk the neighborhood.
>but hey, i guess you never know. i do remember this one time
>though, as a student, when this white dude that was dating
>someone Black in a drunken stupor said something to the
>effect of "man, I get so much Black pussy" to a group of
>Black dudes outside the bar. i don't need to detail the
>whooping the ensued.

I lived outside of New York for 5 years before moving back. I recommend it to any New Yorker - New York is not America. Living in Cleveland for 5 years? THAT's America: cross burnings in Parma, gay bashing in Lakewood, boojie bigots from Maple Heights, militant black Muslims from East Cleveland, the Heights, and Kinsman - all great fun stuff. In the end, we carved out a niche and stuck to it, because my wife was being called 'cookie' to my 'cracker', and I was getting into fistfights just to get my beard lined up. Let me tell you why I never wanted to leave New York again. Because the rest of this country is as narrow-minded and ridiculous as the rest of the world paints us out to be. In New York, my wife and I are anonymous. Once we LEAVE New York, we become a conversational piece.

>
>i've came to this position from experience. every last Black
>person i know that dates white folk has issues with their
>own Blackness. not little issues but fundamental shit. this
>one dude (this was the most absurd thing i'd ever heard)
>told me one of the reasons that he liked his white
>girlfriend (who he was dating for TWO years) because of her
>hair. he said: "i love how soft her hair is and that her how
>soft fingers through it." sorry, but that reeks of
>colonization and self-hate.
>
>so when it came down to it every last person i had spoken to
>told me one of the main reason they were dating their white
>partner had something to do with that person's whiteness.
>
>do you see the conflict?

I do. But that's from people coming into a relationship with issues before hand - THEIR self-hate politicizes the relationship before it even gets off the ground. It's like Jews who only date Aryan blondes. I dated a very broad array of women - Egyptian, Korean, Italian, Dominican, Jewish, Irish, Puerto Rican, Jamaican - before I settled down, so it wasn't a matter of like "Ooooo - Black Female. I get street credibility!" By then, I'd matured enough to sort of assess each person on their own terms. I understand what you're saying, but I attribute the shortcomings to immaturity, not politics.

>how can you be a Black person that longs for your partner's
>whiteness? you are either delusional or politically off?
>
>i think that its a combination of both.
>
>it's sorta like how eldrigde cleaver raped Black women to
>practice how to rape white women. some deeprooted crazy
>self-hate and misogyny.

That's fuckin' crazy! I just finished 'Soul on Ice' again - and a good example. I have to step back for a minute to fuck with that.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

Yall keep it going like that and I may have to visit Activist more often. Not like u owe me any reason to come here just stateing my thoughts.

This post was paid for by the following.

www.twitter.com/13Rose
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Remember MJ The Great!
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This was probably one of the best fucking threads I've seen here in a long : Huey knocked it out the motherfuckin' FRAME, as did Nettrice and all the other cats involved. This is why i still post on this board - THIS was a good debate!

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

>you can't resist most bourgeois understandings and adhere to
>their notions of love and sex.

and you can't say this.. that's all I'm saying..

peace,

***I'm a Child of Production***

doesn't it seem incongruent to be an atheist AND a church deacon??

love and sex are major components of western bourgeois hegemony, just as the deacon is the cornerstone of the church.

peace.

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<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

>doesn't it seem incongruent to be an atheist AND a church
>deacon??

Yes, and it seems incongruent to use bad analogies. In the case of your analogy, you are using opposites--by definition--to state your case. However, when it actually comes to the real issue, there is always the ability to resist what you call "western bourgeois notions" and not adhere to the love and sex components of the hegemony you are trying to describe. What you are trying to say, over and over again, is that it is impossible for an "interracial" couple to live otherwise. I say, unless you have dabbled in this sort of relationship (which you said you haven't), how can you possibly make such a blatent conclusion and expect to be taken seriously?

BTW, you make good points and observations that should be addressed, but you're blanketing innocent people with your judgement, trust me. peace,

***I'm a Child of Production***

tell me what i'm saying better than i can.

first off, i'm not judging anyone. if anyone feels convicted, that's on them. i'm arguing that all relationships have a political basis that should be acknowledged and that there needs to be a conscious resistance to notions of romanticism.

now what i am saying is...if you reject/consciously resist imposed western values, generally, yet analyze a love relationship with a romantic lens (solely or in large part), then you have messed up politics. whether the relationship is "interracial" or not.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

if this is the case, and all relationships deal with different levels of politics, then who cares if the relationship is interracial or not? isn't it just an obstacle we all must climb anyway? peace, and sorry for putting words in your mouth...

***I'm a Child of Production***

you're right everything is a political struggle. but IMO it is immensely difficult to reconcile a politic that is pro-Black and be with a white partner. it's quite contradictory. that's my personal opinion though.

peace.

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<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

I understand ego-centered love but that's not real love IMHO. Authentic love (like authentic power) is transcendent. I think that the only way to enjoy the ecstasy of romance for a lifetime is to first discover love within ourselves. Why is this so difficult?

Politics has nothing to do with authentic love, neither does romance, these are just challenges/obstacles to transcend along the way or path towards love. I see love everywhere-- in my lovers, my friends, family, and so on. Rather than put all my love in the external I choose to seek a balance...

For example, about a year ago I told this white guy that I loved him and he told me he loved me as well but we both knew that we would never get intimate because neither one of us wanted to tackle the challenge of race or politics. We're still good friends and I am soooo glad I decided not to get romantic with that guy. We've had our "romantic" moments but we valued what we had so much that we both agreed that there was no next level...for now.

"All love is based on the search for spirit." - that Deepak Chopra guy

I don't think we were trying to avoid politics because we we're already close and tongues were already wagging. I realized that I had found someone to love but not the One. Politics had little if anything to do with that.

This is when I first discovered that I was in a different place, I had matured.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

>I don't think we were trying to avoid politics because we we're
> already close and tongues were already wagging.

I'm only 24.

"Riots eruptin around and still we party on..."

...at age 19 but this guy followed me from high school to New York City and we were in college. The only difference was I was not ready to let go of my "politics" as far as my relationship, so I burned a bridge and lost a friend.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

>...at age 19 but this guy followed me from high school to New
>York City and we were in college. The only difference was I was
> not ready to let go of my "politics" as far as my
>relationship, so I burned a bridge and lost a friend.

Actually I was just being funny about the tongue wagging part. As far as your "exploring options" comment I don't agree with it and it's not due to lack of evolving on my part, I more so attribute it to maybe some "giving up" on your part. I've heard so many cases of women saying there are not brothas left or they are all dating white women so i will do the same. I have problems with this attitude, I don't tell anybody who to date but I feel how I feel for valid reasons. Black men and women are a unit as far as I am concerned. When we abandon each other then we cease to exist. If one leg is bad the good leg has to be strong enough for the bad leg until it gets better, if both legs are incapable then we just stand still and rot.

"Riots eruptin around and still we party on..."

>Actually I was just being funny about the tongue wagging
>part. As far as your "exploring options" comment I don't
>agree with it and it's not due to lack of evolving on my
>part, I more so attribute it to maybe some "giving up" on
>your part.

Not giving up but living life. If at some point along the way I fall for a Black guy then so be it but I am not limiting my options when I don't even know what's coming my way.

>I've heard so many cases of women saying there
>are not brothas left or they are all dating white women so i
>will do the same.

You'll never hear me say this. What other people do or choose is not for me to judge.

> I have problems with this attitude, I
>don't tell anybody who to date but I feel how I feel for
>valid reasons. Black men and women are a unit as far as I am
>concerned. When we abandon each other then we cease to
>exist. If one leg is bad the good leg has to be strong
>enough for the bad leg until it gets better, if both legs
>are incapable then we just stand still and rot.

I think many Black people have not yet come to grips with the consequences of the middle passage. Our souls we're damaged, we lost a great deal, both on the African soil and in the West. I allow myself to hope for a day when the choices people make are for the betterment of their families and communities but seeing how the rift between the lower income and higher income widens and how fragmented our folks are it'll be a miracle if I can even find the spiritual partner I seek. I am always optimistic...

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

i am a black male and i was about thirty before i started to even think about interacial relationships. at the same time i also thought that it might be possible that i might not find that special someone period be she black white etc. i am now in an interracial relationship. it is cool, but i ain't in it cause she's not black. it is because of who she is and how she reacts to me. how she deals with my imperfections and how i deal with hers. and like my man said it is about the the way she makes me feel like anything is possible and how she makes me feel like everything is new even our relationship each and everyday. how she keep making me fall in love every day. i am not in my relationship for political reasons. if anything i spent my first thirty dating for political reasons and it failed. i am not sure why. I feel like i have finally met the person that i was meant to be with and that is what makes it special. if she was black i would be as happy. another thing is if you are really in it for the long haul it can't be about the outside package cause who knows what might happen to that, and when you old she gonna be sexy, but it isn't gonna be about her body and face. you got to be in love with who the person is on the inside. the only time race enters the picture is when we are dealing with issues that are outside of our relationship, i always feel i can be honest with her and that she is honest with me. sometimes it ain't about anything but love and you don't have to prove that to nobody cept the person you in love with.

I don't go around evaluating interracial relationships on an individual basis to test if it is "true love" I don't have time for that. I have a general opinion and no cindarella story about "true love" is going to change my mind.

Every brotha I've met profess some genuine love that defies issues of race. I have seen so many cases where brothas come from all black environments and soon as they get some exposure to white women they go crazy and fall in love. Or they date black women all their life then all of a sudden they fall in love with the 1st white woman(the numbers look funny). Even brothas in the hood used to ask me "how was those white girls in Iowa" with some kind of mysticism in their eyes, I couldn't tell them nothing because even in white ass Iowa I was with sistas. Old folks got there stories too "when you get as old as me you realize somethings just don't matter" Well I say it does, none of these old cats are older than history or the struggle and those things tell me that it does matter. I don't know you or your girl but when it comes down to it my observations tell me that we "truly love" bullshit excuses.

"Riots eruptin around and still we party on..."

is not white, second she is not the first person i was exposed to see, and i ain't on some black women this trip either black women that trip cause i think it is the same all over there are women (and) with bad attitudes everywnere. so when you find one that got her (his)head square on they shoulders you turn away and say naw no thanks none for me.

and now imma testify maybe you don't know love like i do see you you may not know what im talkin bout but real love don't let you look away real love you be a fool for turnin away from now i am here tonight to tellllll you about a real love see thats what me and my woman got...

just jokes. i posted above with further comments about politics cause truly i mean truly if ya want to get into ploitics and sex why in the fuck would women want to have relationships with men as men have been there oppressors oh goin on how long now

Real or authentic love/power comes from self. It's internal...romance is external and often temporary. When I look in his eyes I want not to see his love for me but his love for himself, his spirit. Attachment is psychological but it's not permanent.

>why in the fuck would women want to have
>relationships with men as men have been there oppressors oh
>goin on how long now

Many people want to get with other people for companionship, so it doesn't matter what is going on outside...

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

but love is a construction and you clearly are down with the romantic ish. IMO romance is an aspect of a love relationship not something that is fundamental to love.

let's be real. what the hell is romance? and i'm not talking about some description about hearts fluttering, astute listening, or being swept from one's feet. i mean, what is it?

romance needs to be critically analyzed and understood. folk like to ascribe cutey-pie affectations of romance but don't get into the meat and potatoes of what it means to be romanced or romantic.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

But I understand the difference...

>but love is a construction and you clearly are down with the
>romantic ish.

Romance is just a part of what I am down with when it comes to love. I knew love before I knew anything else.

>IMO romance is an aspect of a love
>relationship not something that is fundamental to love.

I agree.

>let's be real. what the hell is romance? and i'm not talking
>about some description about hearts fluttering, astute
>listening, or being swept from one's feet. i mean, what is
>it?

When I was 6 I fell in love with my shaggy dog, Felix. We were a team, Felix and I, and no one could come between us until some grown ups took him away. That was romance, too.

>romance needs to be critically analyzed and understood. folk
>like to ascribe cutey-pie affectations of romance but don't
>get into the meat and potatoes of what it means to be
>romanced or romantic.

Romance is temporary. Being in a relationship makes it permanent. We pass through attraction, infatuation, courtship, and intimacy...it all part of this search for spirit. I've learned that the psychological manifestation of love is temporary, romance-based and attached but I knew spiritual love first. It was peaceful, freeing, based on my soul. The latter is timeless and overcomes all things.

Peace to you!

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

Being that it is more of an ambiguous concept than a concrete word it cannot not be conceptualized outside of a situation IMO.

Love in the "traditional" sense of wanting to marry someone is the idea that a man and a woman making a committment forming a union to start a family for the good of the community.

Love in other forms can be a child being aggressive with a parent hooked on crack, and wanting that parent to do better.

it usually seems to entail some kind of sacrafice

"Riots eruptin around and still we party on..."

>Being that it is more of an ambiguous concept than a
>concrete word it cannot not be conceptualized outside of a
>situation IMO.
>
>Love in the "traditional" sense of wanting to marry someone
>is the idea that a man and a woman making a committment
>forming a union to start a family for the good of the
>community.

That's a pretty newfangled idea, considering arranged marriages have pretty much ruled up until – what, the last century? THAT was why you got married: your family demanded it. I think modern marriage is based more on emotion - sometimes for better, others for worse.


>
>Love in other forms can be a child being aggressive with a
>parent hooked on crack, and wanting that parent to do
>better.
>
>it usually seems to entail some kind of sacrafice

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

>That's a pretty newfangled idea, considering arranged marriages
> have pretty much ruled up until – what, the last century? THAT
>was why you got married: your family demanded it. I think
>modern marriage is based more on emotion - sometimes for
>better, others for worse.

Is this a universal statement? Some cultures was/are constructed in such a way to not marry was inconcieveable. Just like for some people marriage may be a cash connection but to others it's a way to insure the immortality of a community, and everybody didn't lack the autonomy to choose their partner.

"Riots eruptin around and still we party on..."

It was a quick answer, and I appreciate the consistency-check.

>Is this a universal statement? Some cultures was/are
>constructed in such a way to not marry was inconcieveable.
>Just like for some people marriage may be a cash connection
>but to others it's a way to insure the immortality of a
>community, and everybody didn't lack the autonomy to choose
>their partner.

My point wasn't that romantic 'love' was a new concept, but that marriage for non-economic reasons was a pretty new concept by historical standards, as was marrying STRICTLY for romantic reasons. One set of my grandparents married because their parents had arranged it, and thought my grandfather would make good money to take care of their daughter; the other marriage was a sort of rebellious romantic marriage.

But keep in mind, this was the whole reason why dowries existed in so many cultures. I agree, that shouldn't disqualify the exceptions, but when you brought context into the frame, I wanted to dissect it a little under an historical lens. I shouldn't have been so glib, though... apologies.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

I personally don't believe in it. Simply put, I think it's a bunch of bullshit designed to make women feel inadequate, dependent on men, and spend shitloads of money on things that have no intrinsic value, other than to feed into a fucked up notion of romance.

About the whole "love see no color" thang: I don't buy it. Racial dynamics informs EVERY SINGLE component of modern western society. Somehow, when it comes to dating and sex, people suddenly are able to "transcend race". Bullshit. Mu'fuckas ain't racially transcendent when they on juries, or giving bank loans, or hiring new employees, or building prisons. But race suddenly don't matter when it comes to gettin ass? Yeah, right.

preach!!

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

Love is color blind LMAO

"Riots eruptin around and still we party on..."

you ain't gotta spend no money for real love you aint got ta dress up for real love you ain't got ta depend on real love real love make ya strong real love make ya get up off yo ass real love inspire ya love make ya wanna siiiiiiiiiing.

the sad truth is that i don't think the vast majority of people are dealing with a healthy sense of what love really is. i am not talking about race but just a healthy relationship. and i don't think enough people have them. so i know that now that i am in one and that ain't got nothing to do with race just in how she respects me and vice versa. there is no way in the hell im ma let some one anyone not you or family tell me who i should and shouldn't love.

really though the world ain't black and white, and yeah the world is fucked; people are racist and so on and so on. I figure at the end of the day you can't really have that in your heart (sounds corny as hell) when i am sitting at home i am not looking out the window for the man. most people who know me see me as a leftist conspiracy theorist.

>I personally don't believe in it. Simply put, I think it's
>a bunch of bullshit designed to make women feel inadequate,
>dependent on men, and spend shitloads of money on things
>that have no intrinsic value, other than to feed into a
>fucked up notion of romance.
>
>About the whole "love see no color" thang: I don't buy it.
>Racial dynamics informs EVERY SINGLE component of modern
>western society. Somehow, when it comes to dating and sex,
>people suddenly are able to "transcend race". Bullshit.
>Mu'fuckas ain't racially transcendent when they on juries,
>or giving bank loans, or hiring new employees, or building
>prisons. But race suddenly don't matter when it comes to
>gettin ass? Yeah, right.

You know, I agree with all of this in a certain context. However, I think it is possible to find similar interests in people of other races depending on the social dynamic in which you meet them in. I am a persian male and I have never dated any persian women because I havn't shared any similar interests with any persian women that I have met. In Vancouver, most persian women that I have met come from an elite, pro-monarchy background and are against my conceptions of a classless world. On the other hand, while I was involved in a third world alliance organization I dated a black woman who shared a lot of political interests with me and although we found many points of disagreement, we essentially saw things eye to eye. I've dated a white woman who I had the same experience with while fighting in a social justice group. I've dated a Chilean woman who enriched my life in so many ways while we both worked together in a Palestinian liberation group. Right now, I am dating a Puerto Rican Marxist woman that I met in a political conference in Mexico (long-distance relationship) -she is intellectual on the same wave as I am. While I can understand the barriers to interracial dating in the context that you are speaking, I don't think you can broadly indict the whole practice altogether. Maybe it is an American thing, I guess the problem of segregation is a lot worse in the US and we are therefore coming from different points of view. I seems to me that in this anomolous land of the US, the idea of segregation is so deeply ingrained in the social consciousness of that society that people seem to get stuck in such narrow definitions of themselves. Especially for those who havn't gone far from home, there seems to this narrow and confined definition of the self as defined by the narrow and confined social borders that they are forced to live within.

For me, interracial dating has never been an issue because from day 1 I have never been accepted by any racial group or ethnicity. I have been marginalized by all these groups, including "my own" and have therefore been forced to create bonds based on very different premises. If I were to follow the race formula, I would have ended up a wretched and lonely hermit. Perhaps then, my own thoughts on humanity stem from the fact that my own identity has been a product of international forces rather than any cultural, racial or ethnic ties. I am happy about this though because I feel as though I am more liberated as a social being than most other people.

********************************************
"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

are you arguing for or against the political nature of relationships. i am guessing for since most of your relationships were with people with the same political philosophies. also you say that your reasons for dating outside of your ethinicity is politically based.

well, in my case it is interest based which happens to be political. But to me, women aren't objects or property to be glanced over and evaluated by their solely their outer qualities. I mean, yeah there has to be attraction but if she's a pop culture bimbo, I don't care what colour she is, she ain't for me. I've known white girls who are more revolutionary that some club hoppin' black girls. I've know black girls who are more revolutionary the some teeny boppin Asian girls with Hello Kitty backpacks. I've known Asian girls who are more revolutionary than Gloria Estefan listening Latinas. And I've known some pretty heavily revolutionized Latinas that would but all these other girls to shame as human beings. I don't think we can polarize one's characteristics based on ethnicity despite what the socialized percentages say.

********************************************
"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

>About the whole "love see no color" thang: I don't buy it.
>Racial dynamics informs EVERY SINGLE component of modern
>western society. Somehow, when it comes to dating and sex,
>people suddenly are able to "transcend race". Bullshit.
>Mu'fuckas ain't racially transcendent when they on juries,
>or giving bank loans, or hiring new employees, or building
>prisons. But race suddenly don't matter when it comes to
>gettin ass? Yeah, right.

On the contrary. Neither my wife or I are color blind - we just appreciate the differences and distinctions that we both bring to the table. It's not a matter of overlapping each other's cultures - it's CONVERGENCE. It means compromising and taking a fifty-fifty route when dealing with shit like holidays, raising kids, and insuring both sides get equal airplay.

Nor do we expect colorblindness. Give how ridiculous people are, and how much scrutiny we come under by Marcus3X-types; all I expect is a little warning when I have a bottle thrown at me when we're walking our dog.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

>Nor do we expect colorblindness. Give how ridiculous people
>are, and how much scrutiny we come under by Marcus3X-types;
>all I expect is a little warning when I have a bottle thrown
>at me when we're walking our dog.

you're in DC, right? everybody gets a bottle thrown at em.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

Y'know... I really wish that wasn't true, but I'm learning that it's sort of the local Halmark card.

"Welcome to DC!" >bottle hurls<

For real, though - my point is that there are no 'expectations' except by these naive little mutton-heads who've never been jumped by AKAs or Cue's or Godbodys or random others for playing 'salt n' pepper' with one of 'their' women.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

Given the sordid history the white of various ethnicies and classes in oppressing Black folks i find it a testimony to God's grace that any Black person would even want to marry a white person. Plus, be honest your probably more lambasted by other white folks than you are from people like marcus. It was white folks who created the anti-miscegnation laws not Black and Black folks are far more understanding of marrying outside the race than whites or even Asians. Lastly, since your jewish I know there are jews who advocate Jews marrying other Jews.

>>About the whole "love see no color" thang: I don't buy it.
>>Racial dynamics informs EVERY SINGLE component of modern
>>western society. Somehow, when it comes to dating and sex,
>>people suddenly are able to "transcend race". Bullshit.
>>Mu'fuckas ain't racially transcendent when they on juries,
>>or giving bank loans, or hiring new employees, or building
>>prisons. But race suddenly don't matter when it comes to
>>gettin ass? Yeah, right.
>
>On the contrary. Neither my wife or I are color blind - we
>just appreciate the differences and distinctions that we
>both bring to the table. It's not a matter of overlapping
>each other's cultures - it's CONVERGENCE. It means
>compromising and taking a fifty-fifty route when dealing
>with shit like holidays, raising kids, and insuring both
>sides get equal airplay.
>
>Nor do we expect colorblindness. Give how ridiculous people
>are, and how much scrutiny we come under by Marcus3X-types;
>all I expect is a little warning when I have a bottle thrown
>at me when we're walking our dog.

"Forget Black History Month, how about live an African History Life"-Ansley Burrows

preach it.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

Truthfully, most tighty whiteys are terrified of being called racist to their face, so while they might stare or follow us around a store, it's never going to be the same. Most black people who have a problem have been much more confrontational... MUCH more confrontational, because in their minds, I'm the one who's transgressed. And it quickly descends from there. I mean, in New York, we never had a problem: Bed-Stuy, Crown Heights, Tremont, Fordham, Kingsbridge, Riverdale, Harlem, Spanish Harlem, Wash Heights - never had a problem fucking ANYWHERE. Here in DC, we've become a novelty item... again.

And with New York Jews, it's really not that deep. We've been intermarrying since the sixties in bulk. My kid brother insists we make the best babies on the planet... but then, he's got sort of an unhealthy crush on Lisa Bonet, so you gotta take that with a grain of salt.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

a jew though? or half jew?

peace,

***I'm a Child of Production***