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Subject: "Politics of/and Love" This topic is locked.
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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
16992 posts
Wed Mar-17-04 11:28 AM

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"Politics of/and Love"


  

          

Credit HoChiGrimm and HueyShakur for this one. I know it's going to lead to a migraine, as I vehemently disagreed with their assessments in another thread, but with this quote - which is very observant, I think - let's get this poppin'.

"First off, i think that love is an extremely political act yet it's one that is often exercised but not seen as political. folk will argue about the significance of "romantic love" but fail to go beyond that.

what is love? seriously.

a lot of us walk around here theorizing about love relationships but no one offers a political understanding.

and we all know everything is political."

- HueyShakur

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
haha!
Mar 17th 2004
1
RE: Politics of/and Love
Mar 17th 2004
2
up.
Mar 17th 2004
3
yo, dhalgren
Mar 17th 2004
7
      It's not beef. I disagree.
Mar 17th 2004
13
           the point i'm making is not solely about...
Mar 17th 2004
14
           RE: the point i'm making is not solely about...
Mar 17th 2004
16
           wow....pulling rank
Mar 17th 2004
17
           I agree
Mar 18th 2004
18
           I have two interracial parents....
Mar 17th 2004
15
                Agreed...
Mar 18th 2004
19
                     you got me wrong...
Mar 18th 2004
22
                          RE: you got me wrong...
Mar 18th 2004
23
                          here goes...
Mar 18th 2004
24
                               I would refer you to my post number 20
Mar 18th 2004
25
                               nice try.
Mar 18th 2004
26
                                    *stepping in from lurking*
Mar 20th 2004
59
                                         *daps*
Mar 20th 2004
60
                               So wait...
Mar 18th 2004
28
                                    huh???!
Mar 18th 2004
29
                                         but
Mar 18th 2004
31
                                              ahh,
Mar 18th 2004
37
                                                   Okay, no...
Mar 19th 2004
42
                                                        Okay, no??
Mar 19th 2004
45
                                                             I think...
Mar 19th 2004
47
                                                                  come on now...
Mar 19th 2004
48
                                                                       Okay, OKAY!
Mar 19th 2004
49
                                                                            hmm...
Mar 19th 2004
50
                                                                                 RE: hmm...
Mar 19th 2004
51
                                                                                      damn,
Mar 19th 2004
55
                                                                                      RE: damn,
Mar 20th 2004
58
                                                                                      Now that was a tight! exchange
Mar 21st 2004
119
                                                                                      Receommendation for Archive
Mar 22nd 2004
130
                          RE: you got me wrong...
Mar 21st 2004
121
                               why not?
Mar 21st 2004
122
                                    RE: why not?
Mar 21st 2004
124
                                         wow, i'm glad you can...
Mar 21st 2004
126
                                              sorry.. help me clear something up then...
Mar 22nd 2004
133
                                                   ahh, now i see...
Mar 22nd 2004
135
Ego-love
Mar 17th 2004
4
Your personal accounts are too much sometimes.
Mar 17th 2004
6
I went through the same thing...
Mar 17th 2004
8
      What am I going through?
Mar 17th 2004
9
           RE: What am I going through?
Mar 17th 2004
10
                RE: What am I going through?
Mar 18th 2004
20
                     *passing collection plate* Folks are testifying tonight
Mar 18th 2004
27
                          first she.....
Mar 18th 2004
35
                               Real love is not attachment...
Mar 19th 2004
39
the catch phrases are cute...
Mar 17th 2004
11
      I am a romantic
Mar 17th 2004
12
Love doesn't exist outside of a context
Mar 17th 2004
5
RE: Love doesn't exist outside of a context
Mar 18th 2004
21
      Mr. "I hate umbrella statements" come on.
Mar 18th 2004
30
           No - you're right.
Mar 19th 2004
40
about romantic love
Mar 18th 2004
32
THANK YOU!!!!
Mar 18th 2004
33
Are you some kind of racist!
Mar 18th 2004
34
see imma have to tell you about....
Mar 18th 2004
36
RE: about romantic love
Mar 18th 2004
38
a little confused
Mar 19th 2004
56
      RE: a little confused
Mar 20th 2004
57
RE: about romantic love
Mar 19th 2004
41
hey...
Mar 19th 2004
44
ROFL!!!!!!!!
Mar 19th 2004
46
be honest halgren
Mar 22nd 2004
140
      thank you, brothaman
Mar 22nd 2004
141
      Not really.
Mar 22nd 2004
142
           isn't lisa bonet
Mar 22nd 2004
145
                Hit the nail on the head!
Mar 22nd 2004
146
RE: about romantic love
Mar 19th 2004
52
the children...
Mar 19th 2004
54
      RE: the children...
Mar 21st 2004
108
           sorry to break it to you...
Mar 21st 2004
112
                I'm going according to your standards...
Mar 21st 2004
120
                     innate sin??
Mar 21st 2004
123
                          RE: innate sin??
Mar 21st 2004
125
                               still confused
Mar 21st 2004
127
                                    RE: still confused
Mar 22nd 2004
134
                                         RE: still confused
Mar 22nd 2004
136
                                         to be totally honest...
Mar 22nd 2004
138
                                              I suggest you checkout Diop
Mar 22nd 2004
149
                                                   I have... and agreed to disagree...
Mar 22nd 2004
151
                                                        Well if you call them stereotypes...
Mar 24th 2004
159
                                                             Afrocentricism is legit on many grounds, but...
Mar 24th 2004
161
                                                                  RE: Afrocentricism is legit on many grounds, but...
Mar 24th 2004
162
                                                                       RE: Afrocentricism is legit on many grounds, but...
Mar 24th 2004
163
                                                                            Last response
Mar 24th 2004
164
                                                                                 RE: Last response
Mar 24th 2004
165
                                         i see what you're saying
Mar 22nd 2004
137
Exhibit A Volpe who brutalized Louima
Mar 19th 2004
53
RE: Politics of/and Love
Mar 19th 2004
43
*Adding my 2 cents*
Mar 20th 2004
61
Hey! That's my line!
Mar 20th 2004
62
      LOL!
Mar 20th 2004
63
           the 'my 2 cents'!
Mar 20th 2004
64
                RE: the 'my 2 cents'!
Mar 20th 2004
65
                     On the contrary
Mar 20th 2004
66
                          RE: On the contrary
Mar 20th 2004
67
                               just to add on...
Mar 20th 2004
68
                               See, but there are flaws
Mar 20th 2004
69
                                    Question
Mar 20th 2004
70
                                    I do.
Mar 20th 2004
71
                                    i dont think he's romanticizing it...
Mar 20th 2004
73
                                         RE: i dont think he's romanticizing it...
Mar 20th 2004
75
                                         so defensive
Mar 20th 2004
84
                                              RE: so defensive
Mar 20th 2004
88
                                                   maybe i'm wrong...
Mar 20th 2004
89
                                                        My college roommate...
Mar 20th 2004
90
                                                        Easy their Nettrice...
Mar 20th 2004
92
                                                             RE: Easy their Nettrice...
Mar 20th 2004
94
                                                                  So it's not BS, you're just not with the program
Mar 20th 2004
98
                                                        HMMMM....
Mar 21st 2004
100
                                                             Again, on the contrary
Mar 21st 2004
101
                                                                  RE: Again, on the contrary
Mar 21st 2004
103
                                         RE: i dont think he's romanticizing it...
Mar 20th 2004
91
                                              give me examples...
Mar 20th 2004
93
                                                   RE: give me examples...
Mar 20th 2004
95
                                                   You just said...
Mar 20th 2004
97
                                                        RE: You just said...
Mar 21st 2004
99
                                                             you have bought the hype, brothaman
Mar 21st 2004
107
                                                                  RE: you have bought the hype, brothaman
Mar 21st 2004
128
                                                                       what?
Mar 22nd 2004
131
                                                                            i think ...
Mar 22nd 2004
148
                                                                            I agree with solidarity but....
Mar 23rd 2004
152
                                                                                 what are you talking about?
Mar 23rd 2004
153
                                                                                      sorry it is late here so this might be like some stream
Mar 23rd 2004
154
                                                                                      hmm...
Mar 23rd 2004
155
                                                                                      one last question
Mar 23rd 2004
156
                                                                                      response
Mar 25th 2004
169
                                                   RE: give me examples...
Mar 20th 2004
96
Rude Awakenings
Mar 20th 2004
72
RE: Rude Awakenings
Mar 20th 2004
74
      "blue collar shlubs" It's all about the workers!!!
Mar 20th 2004
76
      Oh, stop it.
Mar 20th 2004
77
           Lol @ pinky winky
Mar 20th 2004
78
                RE: Lol @ pinky winky
Mar 20th 2004
79
                     Lighten up Pinky
Mar 20th 2004
85
                          Come on chains,
Mar 20th 2004
86
                               Of course...
Mar 20th 2004
87
      RE: Rude Awakenings
Mar 20th 2004
80
           RE: Rude Awakenings
Mar 20th 2004
81
           If her boyfriend was white
Mar 22nd 2004
139
           Okay, that's clearer
Mar 20th 2004
82
                RE: Okay, that's clearer
Mar 20th 2004
83
Disclaimer note
Mar 21st 2004
102
isn't this a concession?
Mar 21st 2004
104
RE: isn't this a concession?
Mar 21st 2004
105
RE: Disclaimer note
Mar 21st 2004
106
Is this about "Interracial" relationships
Mar 21st 2004
109
Can the kids be more fucked up than us?
Mar 21st 2004
110
      That's a WHOLE 'nother post.
Mar 21st 2004
111
      RE: Can the kids be more fucked up than us?
Mar 21st 2004
113
           i'm not the creator of the post...
Mar 21st 2004
114
           I was quoting HueyShakur
Mar 21st 2004
117
RE: Politics of/and Love
Mar 21st 2004
115
I'm Impressed with the maturity of this discussion
Mar 21st 2004
116
Scary, isn't it?
Mar 21st 2004
118
big ups
Mar 21st 2004
129
In response to the topic
Mar 22nd 2004
132
Come Clean: The beef is White and Black relationships
Mar 22nd 2004
143
THAT'S tight.
Mar 22nd 2004
147
The history of romantic love
Mar 22nd 2004
144
RE: Politics of/and Love
Mar 22nd 2004
150
RE: Politics of/and Love
Mar 24th 2004
158
      I feel yah
Mar 24th 2004
160
romantic @ heart......
Mar 23rd 2004
157
RE: Politics of/and Love
Mar 25th 2004
166
RE: Politics of/and Love
Mar 25th 2004
167
RE: Politics of/and Love
Mar 25th 2004
168
RE: Politics of/and Love
Mar 25th 2004
171
the analogy was in reference....
Mar 25th 2004
170
      RE: the analogy was in reference....
Mar 25th 2004
172
           mayne,
Mar 25th 2004
173
                I dig...
Mar 25th 2004
174

HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Wed Mar-17-04 11:31 AM

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1. "haha!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

imma sit back and watch for a minute. see what develops.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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kid
Member since Jul 10th 2002
4436 posts
Wed Mar-17-04 11:44 AM

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2. "RE: Politics of/and Love"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

love is that feeling I get when I come home late from my office and my girl is there lookin at me and all she says is
'welcome home.'

the best feeling in the world.
as far as politicizing (I'm off on my spelling today so I'ma say EFF IT!!) it I cannot give you an answer except the feeling you get when you look into someones eyes, and you feel invincible and totally insignificant at the same time.
I'm babbling so feel free to ignore, just waiting to get home.

***********************************
StLOKp's�: DawgEatah, Dstl1, hyde, Colonel Sanders, MisterGrump, Afrotec, Instant_Vintage, ThaTruth, Soul1908, SefConscious, Baldheadslik, YngblkprinceMD, 314confidential, rdiggity, Kid

Honorable mention:auragin_boi

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
16992 posts
Wed Mar-17-04 12:23 PM

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3. "up."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

dammit.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Wed Mar-17-04 01:51 PM

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7. "yo, dhalgren"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

state ya beef.

you got into with HoChi, not I.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
16992 posts
Wed Mar-17-04 04:46 PM

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13. "It's not beef. I disagree."
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

I think it's very easy to politicize an intangible like 'love'.

I'm married to a black woman - and that is constantly categorized, scrutinized, and fucked with as some sort of statement, but sadly, I'm just crazy about the woman who's with me. I understand the fetish argument, but it isn't the umbrella under which all 'mixed' relationships fall.

That's my thesis statement. If you want details, inbox, because my business isn't for everyone.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Wed Mar-17-04 05:06 PM

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14. "the point i'm making is not solely about..."
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

external politics. politics is everpresent in all relationships, they are fundamental to the process.

there are political decisions, wise or unwise, that govern things like romance, fucking, courtship, etc.

we need to acknowledge it and work for there.

that's what i'm saying.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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Nettrice
Charter member
61747 posts
Wed Mar-17-04 05:50 PM

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16. "RE: the point i'm making is not solely about..."
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

>external politics. politics is everpresent in all
>relationships, they are fundamental to the process.

Psychological/ego-based and spiritual-based love are two different things. Before I even knew people I knew love...I knew spirit. Not all relationships are ego-based or political. I am old enough to have had several temporary psychological relationships and my goal is find spiritual partners. Sex is sex, romance is romance but spirit is peace.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Wed Mar-17-04 06:03 PM

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17. "wow....pulling rank"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

with the experience card.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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insanejake
Member since Feb 18th 2003
4885 posts
Thu Mar-18-04 12:28 AM

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18. "I agree"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

But at the same time, whilst a marriage can be political in itself, and have political meaning outwardly, there can be something deeper and more personal going on underneath...

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

  

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LK1
Member since Jun 22nd 2003
1113 posts
Wed Mar-17-04 05:48 PM

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15. "I have two interracial parents...."
In response to Reply # 13


          

>I think it's very easy to politicize an intangible like
>'love'.

yes.

>I'm married to a black woman - and that is constantly
>categorized, scrutinized, and fucked with as some sort of
>statement, but sadly, I'm just crazy about the woman who's
>with me. I understand the fetish argument, but it isn't the
>umbrella under which all 'mixed' relationships fall.

That's very honest. The fact that you speak on such open terms says a lot about your understanding of the subject, and your wife's character (I presume). The "statement/fetish" label seems to be constantly ignored by most of the mixed couples I have come across (while simultaneously knowing that they themselves and everyone around are aware of it). To me, it seems that when these labels are actually confronted (and let's be real, in most cases the label has definite merit, which is why most mixed couples--those who are the reason for the label's existence--are too ashamed to confront it, lest their "secret" be exposed), it leaves those who wish to judge in a realm of ambiguous, babbling rebuttle (like the rebuttles to your post) because these labels, while often true, absolutely DO NOT lie true with all mixed couples. Therefore, the bottom line is, we have to reserve judgement on mixed couples, because whether or not they're "authentic", it is none of our business, simply on the basis that they may very well be real. Props for your confrontation.

peace,

***I'm a Child of Production***

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
16992 posts
Thu Mar-18-04 03:12 AM

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19. "Agreed..."
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

Because also, how can you gage if they are any MORE 'genuine' than any other marriage? Plenty of homogenous marriages happen for the wrong reasosn - thus the present divorce rate. That's why I think a politicized exploration of these relationships is foolish - statistics don't investigate the nuances behind them.

I wonder HoChi ducked this thread... he's usually pretty engaging about topics like this. He's good in a debate... a shame.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Thu Mar-18-04 04:20 AM

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22. "you got me wrong..."
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

That's why I think a politicized exploration
>of these relationships is foolish - statistics don't
>investigate the nuances behind them.

i'm not talking about "statistical" understanding. i'm talking about having a political analysis of choices made in "love relationships," wise or unwise. we live in a politicized world, both on micro and macro levels. so to ignore that politics are intrinsic to all relationships is actually foolish and and adhering to bourgeois notions of love and sex.

you can't resist most bourgeois understandings and adhere to their notions of love and sex.

that's all i'm saying.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
16992 posts
Thu Mar-18-04 07:03 AM

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23. "RE: you got me wrong..."
In response to Reply # 22


  

          


>i'm not talking about "statistical" understanding. i'm
>talking about having a political analysis of choices made in
>"love relationships," wise or unwise.

Okay. That I can understand. I guess I wasn't clear. Could you give some examples, though? Sort of a means of measurement? Something to compare to?

> we live in a
>politicized world, both on micro and macro levels. so to
>ignore that politics are intrinsic to all relationships is
>actually foolish and and adhering to bourgeois notions of
>love and sex.

So what you're saying is decisions made WITHIN a relationship, not necasarily a politicization of the relationship itself. Tell me if I'm unclear. Because that's some shit I could go into for HOURS.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Thu Mar-18-04 08:01 AM

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24. "here goes..."
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

*scrathes head*

a means of measurement? hmm, well something like this is hardly quantifiable and qualifying it is also rather difficult.

i'm working with an understanding that all of us are political beings that make choices which effect the individulal and the collective. and at the same time, we must also interact with a political world exterior to the self. with that, each of us has a position in society to work from and articulate a situation.

here's an example that's off topic. a fourteen Black teen gives birth. yet, that statement breeds so many assumptions and conclusions all based in a political understandings. here's some: a) why is she having a child so young? b) who is going to take care of that child? c) why is a fourteen year old having sex in the first place? d) damn! another Black child is born out of wedlock. e) kids these days are so fast, f) who's the daddy? and the list goes on. but the reality is that since this teen is of a certain maturity, anatomically, child bearing is a possibility. all the rest is politics. you'll probably have some folk just happy to have another Black life brought into the world. it runs the gamut.

people choose to be in a "love relationship" and consciously choose their mate(s). so there has to be a politics of love/attraction/courtship. my hunch is that since it's not a comfortable thing to talk about folk pretend to live in romantic la-la land.

in short, i'm saying that ALL relationships are political, both amongst partners and from outsiders looking in/at. so feel free to share. LOL. i'm all eyes.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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loveluv
Charter member
1038 posts
Thu Mar-18-04 05:13 PM

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25. "I would refer you to my post number 20"
In response to Reply # 24


          

If you are saying that in order for us to have any relationship it is necescary(sp) for it to involve politics. then it is also true that the decision to date within one's race is also a political decision. if so then that decision seems to be a little less strong an argument. first you would have to argue for race ie that we all different and that race is one of the categories, once you have defined race however you so choose physical mental cultural whatever. if you do that, it is not a far run to evaluating those differences based on race. from there easy to move to judging what qualities of said race are better. and then to which race is superior. just using my handy dandy slippery slope.
another thing is that if you do limit who you date aren't you in some way giving power to the "MAN" in that it is all his construct anyway, arent you reacting to the racism in a way that is limiting your own choices, thus limiting your own freedom.

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Thu Mar-18-04 05:49 PM

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26. "nice try."
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

i'm not saying to "involve" politics, i'm saying that the politics are already there. you can choose to ignore them and buy into false notions of romance or you can confront them head on.

yes, all relationships are political. interracial, intraracial, and otherwise. all people are politicized from the womb, this is particularly true for Black folk.

this aint PC but we are all different (i'm not talking about biologically, even though Black folk have known that human beings have little biologically different for centuries, but i digress). now you can throw all the crazy scenarios at me but a Black dude from a Black neighborhood is different from a white chick from a white neighborhood. there's no denying it.

i'll be the last person to argue racial superiority because i'm keenly aware of what that has done to Black people. so i'd never use an imposed argument to justify my own and my peoples subjugation to justify another people's.

what i will say though is that as a Black people we can choose to embrace our need, both individually and collectively, to reclaim our political insurgency or we can "look beyond politics." i'm suggesting that "looking beyond politics" is looking beyond Black people and our urgent need for survival/uplift. it's like being a firefighter you can choose to suit up and save the burning building or you can walk away. but walking away ensures the building's demise.

i get the point you trying to make but i'm really tired of the argument that by choosing to be in a intraracial relationship that you are limiting your options and letting the "MAN" win. PLEASE! the best way to give the "man" victory is to be complicit in the annihilation of Black people.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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Inkosi
Member since Nov 19th 2002
6858 posts
Sat Mar-20-04 08:19 AM

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59. "*stepping in from lurking*"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

Pretty much!

---------------------------------
Do it girl

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Sat Mar-20-04 08:39 AM

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60. "*daps*"
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

add on, brotha.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
16992 posts
Thu Mar-18-04 05:55 PM

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28. "So wait..."
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

If read this right, tell me if my example holds water - because I really wanna get this right.

Me and my wife don't want to affect property values, attract scrutiny, or deal with bullshit because we're 'THE MIXED COUPLE', so we move to a Puerto rican neighborhood, where nobody gives a fuck.

is that the sort of political dimension you mean?

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
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Thu Mar-18-04 06:01 PM

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29. "huh???!"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

umm...no.

simple put.

everyone has a type. sometimes folk front something else as their type but when it comes down to it there are commonalities between the folk an individual dates throughout her/his lifetime. i'm arguing that "a type" is purely political. nothing less, nothing more.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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loveluv
Charter member
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Thu Mar-18-04 07:20 PM

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31. "but"
In response to Reply # 29
Thu Mar-18-04 07:25 PM

          

what if your type, and imma use freud here, is like your mother cause i have had that said about me. now, if i am looking for someone who resembles my mother, what characteristics am i going to be looking for now? now from the outset you say that we are politicised, but i would argue that those first years, the ones that are supposed to be so formative, we have little knowledge of race. in my case due to segragation. so i know my mother not as a race, but as a person, as a personality, as my representation of unconditional female love. now, subconicously could i possibly be looking for a race. no i would argue that i am looking for a personality maybe a smell, who knows but i may not be looking for a race. course this all depends on how you view freud.

i know you made the comparison about the burning building and all, but what if what is best for me is to marry someone outside of the race. lets just say that that person is not black like me. does that somehow make me wrong and where and when do we draw the line for self preservation. there are alot of radical black revs from the sixties that are in dire staights, but you odn't see the race steppin up to help them out. the race is fine, but in the end of the day they aren't going to make me feel warm and special and all those things the right woman makes you feel.

granted there are a lot of people who are making a political statement by who they are dating or married to, but i would go so far as to say that those people are the people who "only date". whether that only is white women, black men, asian women, latino, whatever the "only" is, whether it is intra or inter. i think that then you are definitely looking at someone who is suffering from the effects of politicized love. now if someone is an equal opportunity person then i would see that as actually a little less political. i am not talking about just having sex but having commited relationships. there are plenty of people who will mess with someone from outside of their race, but would never marry a person outside of their race right. those people also would be afflicted.
oh and speaking of interacial dating did you check out the marcus pics.

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
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Thu Mar-18-04 09:31 PM

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37. "ahh,"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

okay, i think we're knitpicking.

my general point is this...all of us are political beings. politics, like all things in a social setting, are imposed. language is political, interactions are political, everything we do is political. little babies are political beings the choice they make are because of the political reactions made by adults.

with that i'm saying that if you are a political being and interact in a political environment your entire life, how is "love" somehow exempt from politics?

there are
>alot of radical black revs from the sixties that are in dire
>staights, but you odn't see the race steppin up to help them
>out.

this is a cop out. BLACK PEOPLE are in dire staits, you can't escapet that reality.

the truth is folk will use the romantic love argument because it's a convenient explanation despite the race of the partners.

ALL RELATIONSHIPS HAVE A BASIS IN POLITICS!

choosing to not marry outside your race is much like choosing to be a vegan. sure you can no longer have steak or hamburgers, but guess what? you'll never get mad cow.

it's a conscious decision. just like a Black person being with a white person.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
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Fri Mar-19-04 04:36 AM

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42. "Okay, no..."
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

Now I get it. Thanks for taking that long walk through to get me there.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
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Fri Mar-19-04 06:17 AM

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45. "Okay, no??"
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

>Now I get it. Thanks for taking that long walk through to
>get me there.

what's your opinion?

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
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Fri Mar-19-04 06:39 AM

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47. "I think..."
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

... that love influences personal policy. To an extent, yes, of course, politics infects all vectors of life, but - speaking only personally, you understand - but I think the kind of you're relationship you're in effects EXTERNAL behavior and choices more than INTERNAL, y'understand? Like I said, though, my wife and I are sort of a weird case, so perhaps these types of lessons don't pertain to everyone.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
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Fri Mar-19-04 07:31 AM

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48. "come on now..."
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

don't cop out with the exception to the rule argument.

man up. LOL. if you think my argument is bullshit let it be known and offer a rebuttal.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
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Fri Mar-19-04 07:36 AM

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49. "Okay, OKAY!"
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

Dag. You shoulda been my football coach. Shit.

Then no, I stand by the initial statement: I think politics affects the external policy of a sincere loving relationship - not the MECHANICS. I speak from personal experience, having lead my relationship undernearly constant external political duress (except when we were back home in the Bronx, where literally nobody gave a fuck). It has effected us insofar as we muist carefully choose where we live, which can in turn loop into INTERNAL stress, as neither one of us are happy, but... that's the second paragraph of my thesis.

DEBUNK ME, DAMMIT!

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
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Fri Mar-19-04 07:49 AM

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50. "hmm..."
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

distinguish, for me, between "external policy" and "mechanics"? (and please refrain from romanticizing it.)

what person doesn't carefully choose housing (or whatever)?

i remember when i was applying to colleges if the Black population was less than 6% the school automatically did not make my short list. i live in queens and there are certain sections that i'd never think of moving to namely Ozone Park, Howard Beach, Bell Harbor, Bayside, etc.

i'm still not seeing how you don't see the political dynamics with your relationship.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
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Fri Mar-19-04 08:07 AM

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51. "RE: hmm..."
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

>distinguish, for me, between "external policy" and
>"mechanics"? (and please refrain from romanticizing it.)

By 'external policy' I mean who we deal with collectively, where we go, how we carry ourselves together, who we jointly allow in our homes and lives.

'Mechanics' meaning the dailiy interface. I can safely say the political dimension has never invaded the bedroom or morning bathroom rituals.

On the other hand, when I used to get into fist fights on my way home from work with local NOI or AKAs, that was a different situation, there were certain concerns which followed us home. In that way, external policy influenced internal politics.


>what person doesn't carefully choose housing (or whatever)?

Homogenous couples. If you are an all-black/white/hispanic couple, the choices are easier, because there are homogenous communities that exist to support you. In a mixed couple, you are limited because of backlash. We lived in Kingsbridge, which is diverse enough to accomodate anyone, but we'd never be bale to pull that off in Throgs Neck, Schuylerville, Harlem, Whitestone, Howard Beach, Bensonhurst, or any other homogenous communities. Think about the diversity of Flushing vs. Ozone Park. There is also the reality of violence: we met in Cleveland, Ohio, where we pretty much under constant threat of violence from Black fraternities, cops, Black Muslims and skinheads. D.C. is segregated enough where that threat has sort of renewed, so in order to remain together, again, we must be very careful where we live.

Our presence also affects property values, in some cases, meaning we have t be conscious of where we're looking. My man is married to a white woman. They live in Kensington, BK (around Flatbush), where a real estate broker basically told them that mixed couple send up signal flares to white people and gays that the community is tolerant and safe, meaning they are free to move in - and suddenly you've created a hot spot. They bought their duplex for 60K three years back - it's now worth 320, and the neighborhood went from Orthodox Jews, Pakistanis, Egyptians, and W. Indians to white, gay hipsters.

So that's the political dimension of loving and living space.

>i remember when i was applying to colleges if the Black
>population was less than 6% the school automatically did not
>make my short list. i live in queens and there are certain
>sections that i'd never think of moving to namely Ozone
>Park, Howard Beach, Bell Harbor, Bayside, etc.
>
>i'm still not seeing how you don't see the political
>dynamics with your relationship.

I do. You're missing the point: as political a union as a white jew and black woman is, we haven't let it INUNDATE the relationship. If we saw each other as no more than our ethnic identities - as opposed to that being a PART of a greater whole - than we never would have married. The politics is only a small part of the relationship, along with appreciation of loyalty, shared resources, emotional support, joint finances, common interests; etc.

Or am I still on the wrong track with you?

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
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Fri Mar-19-04 05:58 PM

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55. "damn,"
In response to Reply # 51


  

          

your experience sounds like some movie ish.

i've never observed or heard of Black people ATTACKING a mixed couple for no reason as they walk the neighborhood. but hey, i guess you never know. i do remember this one time though, as a student, when this white dude that was dating someone Black in a drunken stupor said something to the effect of "man, I get so much Black pussy" to a group of Black dudes outside the bar. i don't need to detail the whooping the ensued.

i've came to this position from experience. every last Black person i know that dates white folk has issues with their own Blackness. not little issues but fundamental shit. this one dude (this was the most absurd thing i'd ever heard) told me one of the reasons that he liked his white girlfriend (who he was dating for TWO years) because of her hair. he said: "i love how soft her hair is and that her how soft fingers through it." sorry, but that reeks of colonization and self-hate.

so when it came down to it every last person i had spoken to told me one of the main reason they were dating their white partner had something to do with that person's whiteness.

do you see the conflict?

how can you be a Black person that longs for your partner's whiteness? you are either delusional or politically off?

i think that its a combination of both.

it's sorta like how eldrigde cleaver raped Black women to practice how to rape white women. some deeprooted crazy self-hate and misogyny.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
16992 posts
Sat Mar-20-04 03:33 AM

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58. "RE: damn,"
In response to Reply # 55


  

          

>your experience sounds like some movie ish.
>
>i've never observed or heard of Black people ATTACKING a
>mixed couple for no reason as they walk the neighborhood.
>but hey, i guess you never know. i do remember this one time
>though, as a student, when this white dude that was dating
>someone Black in a drunken stupor said something to the
>effect of "man, I get so much Black pussy" to a group of
>Black dudes outside the bar. i don't need to detail the
>whooping the ensued.

I lived outside of New York for 5 years before moving back. I recommend it to any New Yorker - New York is not America. Living in Cleveland for 5 years? THAT's America: cross burnings in Parma, gay bashing in Lakewood, boojie bigots from Maple Heights, militant black Muslims from East Cleveland, the Heights, and Kinsman - all great fun stuff. In the end, we carved out a niche and stuck to it, because my wife was being called 'cookie' to my 'cracker', and I was getting into fistfights just to get my beard lined up. Let me tell you why I never wanted to leave New York again. Because the rest of this country is as narrow-minded and ridiculous as the rest of the world paints us out to be. In New York, my wife and I are anonymous. Once we LEAVE New York, we become a conversational piece.

>
>i've came to this position from experience. every last Black
>person i know that dates white folk has issues with their
>own Blackness. not little issues but fundamental shit. this
>one dude (this was the most absurd thing i'd ever heard)
>told me one of the reasons that he liked his white
>girlfriend (who he was dating for TWO years) because of her
>hair. he said: "i love how soft her hair is and that her how
>soft fingers through it." sorry, but that reeks of
>colonization and self-hate.
>
>so when it came down to it every last person i had spoken to
>told me one of the main reason they were dating their white
>partner had something to do with that person's whiteness.
>
>do you see the conflict?

I do. But that's from people coming into a relationship with issues before hand - THEIR self-hate politicizes the relationship before it even gets off the ground. It's like Jews who only date Aryan blondes. I dated a very broad array of women - Egyptian, Korean, Italian, Dominican, Jewish, Irish, Puerto Rican, Jamaican - before I settled down, so it wasn't a matter of like "Ooooo - Black Female. I get street credibility!" By then, I'd matured enough to sort of assess each person on their own terms. I understand what you're saying, but I attribute the shortcomings to immaturity, not politics.

>how can you be a Black person that longs for your partner's
>whiteness? you are either delusional or politically off?
>
>i think that its a combination of both.
>
>it's sorta like how eldrigde cleaver raped Black women to
>practice how to rape white women. some deeprooted crazy
>self-hate and misogyny.

That's fuckin' crazy! I just finished 'Soul on Ice' again - and a good example. I have to step back for a minute to fuck with that.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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13Rose
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Sun Mar-21-04 01:56 PM

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119. "Now that was a tight! exchange"
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

Yall keep it going like that and I may have to visit Activist more often. Not like u owe me any reason to come here just stateing my thoughts.

This post was paid for by the following.

www.twitter.com/13Rose
www.debunkthemyth.org
http://dashaunworld.wordpress.com/
www.mothergreen.com

Remember MJ The Great!
PSN: ThirteenRose

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
16992 posts
Mon Mar-22-04 02:16 AM

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130. "Receommendation for Archive"
In response to Reply # 119


  

          

This was probably one of the best fucking threads I've seen here in a long : Huey knocked it out the motherfuckin' FRAME, as did Nettrice and all the other cats involved. This is why i still post on this board - THIS was a good debate!

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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LK1
Member since Jun 22nd 2003
1113 posts
Sun Mar-21-04 06:05 PM

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121. "RE: you got me wrong..."
In response to Reply # 22


          

>you can't resist most bourgeois understandings and adhere to
>their notions of love and sex.

and you can't say this.. that's all I'm saying..

peace,

***I'm a Child of Production***

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Sun Mar-21-04 06:48 PM

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122. "why not?"
In response to Reply # 121


  

          

doesn't it seem incongruent to be an atheist AND a church deacon??

love and sex are major components of western bourgeois hegemony, just as the deacon is the cornerstone of the church.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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LK1
Member since Jun 22nd 2003
1113 posts
Sun Mar-21-04 07:39 PM

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124. "RE: why not?"
In response to Reply # 122


          

>doesn't it seem incongruent to be an atheist AND a church
>deacon??

Yes, and it seems incongruent to use bad analogies. In the case of your analogy, you are using opposites--by definition--to state your case. However, when it actually comes to the real issue, there is always the ability to resist what you call "western bourgeois notions" and not adhere to the love and sex components of the hegemony you are trying to describe. What you are trying to say, over and over again, is that it is impossible for an "interracial" couple to live otherwise. I say, unless you have dabbled in this sort of relationship (which you said you haven't), how can you possibly make such a blatent conclusion and expect to be taken seriously?

BTW, you make good points and observations that should be addressed, but you're blanketing innocent people with your judgement, trust me. peace,


***I'm a Child of Production***

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
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Sun Mar-21-04 08:15 PM

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126. "wow, i'm glad you can..."
In response to Reply # 124


  

          

tell me what i'm saying better than i can.

first off, i'm not judging anyone. if anyone feels convicted, that's on them. i'm arguing that all relationships have a political basis that should be acknowledged and that there needs to be a conscious resistance to notions of romanticism.

now what i am saying is...if you reject/consciously resist imposed western values, generally, yet analyze a love relationship with a romantic lens (solely or in large part), then you have messed up politics. whether the relationship is "interracial" or not.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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LK1
Member since Jun 22nd 2003
1113 posts
Mon Mar-22-04 06:23 AM

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133. "sorry.. help me clear something up then..."
In response to Reply # 126


          

if this is the case, and all relationships deal with different levels of politics, then who cares if the relationship is interracial or not? isn't it just an obstacle we all must climb anyway? peace, and sorry for putting words in your mouth...

***I'm a Child of Production***

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Mon Mar-22-04 07:32 AM

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135. "ahh, now i see..."
In response to Reply # 133


  

          

you're right everything is a political struggle. but IMO it is immensely difficult to reconcile a politic that is pro-Black and be with a white partner. it's quite contradictory. that's my personal opinion though.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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Nettrice
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61747 posts
Wed Mar-17-04 01:30 PM

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4. "Ego-love"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I understand ego-centered love but that's not real love IMHO. Authentic love (like authentic power) is transcendent. I think that the only way to enjoy the ecstasy of romance for a lifetime is to first discover love within ourselves. Why is this so difficult?

Politics has nothing to do with authentic love, neither does romance, these are just challenges/obstacles to transcend along the way or path towards love. I see love everywhere-- in my lovers, my friends, family, and so on. Rather than put all my love in the external I choose to seek a balance...

For example, about a year ago I told this white guy that I loved him and he told me he loved me as well but we both knew that we would never get intimate because neither one of us wanted to tackle the challenge of race or politics. We're still good friends and I am soooo glad I decided not to get romantic with that guy. We've had our "romantic" moments but we valued what we had so much that we both agreed that there was no next level...for now.

"All love is based on the search for spirit." - that Deepak Chopra guy

I don't think we were trying to avoid politics because we we're already close and tongues were already wagging. I realized that I had found someone to love but not the One. Politics had little if anything to do with that.

This is when I first discovered that I was in a different place, I had matured.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
6567 posts
Wed Mar-17-04 01:43 PM

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6. "Your personal accounts are too much sometimes."
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

>I don't think we were trying to avoid politics because we we're
> already close and tongues were already wagging.

I'm only 24.

"Riots eruptin around and still we party on..."

  

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Nettrice
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Wed Mar-17-04 01:54 PM

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8. "I went through the same thing..."
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

...at age 19 but this guy followed me from high school to New York City and we were in college. The only difference was I was not ready to let go of my "politics" as far as my relationship, so I burned a bridge and lost a friend.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
6567 posts
Wed Mar-17-04 02:29 PM

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9. "What am I going through?"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

>...at age 19 but this guy followed me from high school to New
>York City and we were in college. The only difference was I was
> not ready to let go of my "politics" as far as my
>relationship, so I burned a bridge and lost a friend.

Actually I was just being funny about the tongue wagging part. As far as your "exploring options" comment I don't agree with it and it's not due to lack of evolving on my part, I more so attribute it to maybe some "giving up" on your part. I've heard so many cases of women saying there are not brothas left or they are all dating white women so i will do the same. I have problems with this attitude, I don't tell anybody who to date but I feel how I feel for valid reasons. Black men and women are a unit as far as I am concerned. When we abandon each other then we cease to exist. If one leg is bad the good leg has to be strong enough for the bad leg until it gets better, if both legs are incapable then we just stand still and rot.

"Riots eruptin around and still we party on..."

  

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Nettrice
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Wed Mar-17-04 02:41 PM

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10. "RE: What am I going through?"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

>Actually I was just being funny about the tongue wagging
>part. As far as your "exploring options" comment I don't
>agree with it and it's not due to lack of evolving on my
>part, I more so attribute it to maybe some "giving up" on
>your part.

Not giving up but living life. If at some point along the way I fall for a Black guy then so be it but I am not limiting my options when I don't even know what's coming my way.

>I've heard so many cases of women saying there
>are not brothas left or they are all dating white women so i
>will do the same.

You'll never hear me say this. What other people do or choose is not for me to judge.

> I have problems with this attitude, I
>don't tell anybody who to date but I feel how I feel for
>valid reasons. Black men and women are a unit as far as I am
>concerned. When we abandon each other then we cease to
>exist. If one leg is bad the good leg has to be strong
>enough for the bad leg until it gets better, if both legs
>are incapable then we just stand still and rot.

I think many Black people have not yet come to grips with the consequences of the middle passage. Our souls we're damaged, we lost a great deal, both on the African soil and in the West. I allow myself to hope for a day when the choices people make are for the betterment of their families and communities but seeing how the rift between the lower income and higher income widens and how fragmented our folks are it'll be a miracle if I can even find the spiritual partner I seek. I am always optimistic...

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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loveluv
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1038 posts
Thu Mar-18-04 03:17 AM

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20. "RE: What am I going through?"
In response to Reply # 10


          

i am a black male and i was about thirty before i started to even think about interacial relationships. at the same time i also thought that it might be possible that i might not find that special someone period be she black white etc. i am now in an interracial relationship. it is cool, but i ain't in it cause she's not black. it is because of who she is and how she reacts to me. how she deals with my imperfections and how i deal with hers. and like my man said it is about the the way she makes me feel like anything is possible and how she makes me feel like everything is new even our relationship each and everyday. how she keep making me fall in love every day. i am not in my relationship for political reasons. if anything i spent my first thirty dating for political reasons and it failed. i am not sure why. I feel like i have finally met the person that i was meant to be with and that is what makes it special. if she was black i would be as happy. another thing is if you are really in it for the long haul it can't be about the outside package cause who knows what might happen to that, and when you old she gonna be sexy, but it isn't gonna be about her body and face. you got to be in love with who the person is on the inside. the only time race enters the picture is when we are dealing with issues that are outside of our relationship, i always feel i can be honest with her and that she is honest with me. sometimes it ain't about anything but love and you don't have to prove that to nobody cept the person you in love with.

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
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Thu Mar-18-04 05:51 PM

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27. "*passing collection plate* Folks are testifying tonight"
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

I don't go around evaluating interracial relationships on an individual basis to test if it is "true love" I don't have time for that. I have a general opinion and no cindarella story about "true love" is going to change my mind.

Every brotha I've met profess some genuine love that defies issues of race. I have seen so many cases where brothas come from all black environments and soon as they get some exposure to white women they go crazy and fall in love. Or they date black women all their life then all of a sudden they fall in love with the 1st white woman(the numbers look funny). Even brothas in the hood used to ask me "how was those white girls in Iowa" with some kind of mysticism in their eyes, I couldn't tell them nothing because even in white ass Iowa I was with sistas. Old folks got there stories too "when you get as old as me you realize somethings just don't matter" Well I say it does, none of these old cats are older than history or the struggle and those things tell me that it does matter. I don't know you or your girl but when it comes down to it my observations tell me that we "truly love" bullshit excuses.

"Riots eruptin around and still we party on..."

  

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loveluv
Charter member
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Thu Mar-18-04 08:33 PM

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35. "first she....."
In response to Reply # 27


          

is not white, second she is not the first person i was exposed to see, and i ain't on some black women this trip either black women that trip cause i think it is the same all over there are women (and) with bad attitudes everywnere. so when you find one that got her (his)head square on they shoulders you turn away and say naw no thanks none for me.

and now imma testify maybe you don't know love like i do see you you may not know what im talkin bout but real love don't let you look away real love you be a fool for turnin away from now i am here tonight to tellllll you about a real love see thats what me and my woman got...

just jokes. i posted above with further comments about politics cause truly i mean truly if ya want to get into ploitics and sex why in the fuck would women want to have relationships with men as men have been there oppressors oh goin on how long now

  

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Nettrice
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Fri Mar-19-04 03:50 AM

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39. "Real love is not attachment..."
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

Real or authentic love/power comes from self. It's internal...romance is external and often temporary. When I look in his eyes I want not to see his love for me but his love for himself, his spirit. Attachment is psychological but it's not permanent.

>why in the fuck would women want to have
>relationships with men as men have been there oppressors oh
>goin on how long now

Many people want to get with other people for companionship, so it doesn't matter what is going on outside...

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
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Wed Mar-17-04 03:08 PM

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11. "the catch phrases are cute..."
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

but love is a construction and you clearly are down with the romantic ish. IMO romance is an aspect of a love relationship not something that is fundamental to love.

let's be real. what the hell is romance? and i'm not talking about some description about hearts fluttering, astute listening, or being swept from one's feet. i mean, what is it?

romance needs to be critically analyzed and understood. folk like to ascribe cutey-pie affectations of romance but don't get into the meat and potatoes of what it means to be romanced or romantic.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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Nettrice
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12. "I am a romantic"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

But I understand the difference...

>but love is a construction and you clearly are down with the
>romantic ish.

Romance is just a part of what I am down with when it comes to love. I knew love before I knew anything else.

>IMO romance is an aspect of a love
>relationship not something that is fundamental to love.

I agree.

>let's be real. what the hell is romance? and i'm not talking
>about some description about hearts fluttering, astute
>listening, or being swept from one's feet. i mean, what is
>it?

When I was 6 I fell in love with my shaggy dog, Felix. We were a team, Felix and I, and no one could come between us until some grown ups took him away. That was romance, too.

>romance needs to be critically analyzed and understood. folk
>like to ascribe cutey-pie affectations of romance but don't
>get into the meat and potatoes of what it means to be
>romanced or romantic.

Romance is temporary. Being in a relationship makes it permanent. We pass through attraction, infatuation, courtship, and intimacy...it all part of this search for spirit. I've learned that the psychological manifestation of love is temporary, romance-based and attached but I knew spiritual love first. It was peaceful, freeing, based on my soul. The latter is timeless and overcomes all things.

Peace to you!

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
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Wed Mar-17-04 01:37 PM

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5. "Love doesn't exist outside of a context"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Being that it is more of an ambiguous concept than a concrete word it cannot not be conceptualized outside of a situation IMO.

Love in the "traditional" sense of wanting to marry someone is the idea that a man and a woman making a committment forming a union to start a family for the good of the community.

Love in other forms can be a child being aggressive with a parent hooked on crack, and wanting that parent to do better.

it usually seems to entail some kind of sacrafice

"Riots eruptin around and still we party on..."

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
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Thu Mar-18-04 03:25 AM

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21. "RE: Love doesn't exist outside of a context"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

>Being that it is more of an ambiguous concept than a
>concrete word it cannot not be conceptualized outside of a
>situation IMO.
>
>Love in the "traditional" sense of wanting to marry someone
>is the idea that a man and a woman making a committment
>forming a union to start a family for the good of the
>community.

That's a pretty newfangled idea, considering arranged marriages have pretty much ruled up until what, the last century? THAT was why you got married: your family demanded it. I think modern marriage is based more on emotion - sometimes for better, others for worse.


>
>Love in other forms can be a child being aggressive with a
>parent hooked on crack, and wanting that parent to do
>better.
>
>it usually seems to entail some kind of sacrafice

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
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Thu Mar-18-04 06:05 PM

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30. "Mr. "I hate umbrella statements" come on."
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

>That's a pretty newfangled idea, considering arranged marriages
> have pretty much ruled up until what, the last century? THAT
>was why you got married: your family demanded it. I think
>modern marriage is based more on emotion - sometimes for
>better, others for worse.

Is this a universal statement? Some cultures was/are constructed in such a way to not marry was inconcieveable. Just like for some people marriage may be a cash connection but to others it's a way to insure the immortality of a community, and everybody didn't lack the autonomy to choose their partner.

"Riots eruptin around and still we party on..."

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
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Fri Mar-19-04 04:31 AM

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40. "No - you're right."
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

It was a quick answer, and I appreciate the consistency-check.

>Is this a universal statement? Some cultures was/are
>constructed in such a way to not marry was inconcieveable.
>Just like for some people marriage may be a cash connection
>but to others it's a way to insure the immortality of a
>community, and everybody didn't lack the autonomy to choose
>their partner.

My point wasn't that romantic 'love' was a new concept, but that marriage for non-economic reasons was a pretty new concept by historical standards, as was marrying STRICTLY for romantic reasons. One set of my grandparents married because their parents had arranged it, and thought my grandfather would make good money to take care of their daughter; the other marriage was a sort of rebellious romantic marriage.

But keep in mind, this was the whole reason why dowries existed in so many cultures. I agree, that shouldn't disqualify the exceptions, but when you brought context into the frame, I wanted to dissect it a little under an historical lens. I shouldn't have been so glib, though... apologies.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
16000 posts
Thu Mar-18-04 07:46 PM

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32. "about romantic love"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I personally don't believe in it. Simply put, I think it's a bunch of bullshit designed to make women feel inadequate, dependent on men, and spend shitloads of money on things that have no intrinsic value, other than to feed into a fucked up notion of romance.

About the whole "love see no color" thang: I don't buy it. Racial dynamics informs EVERY SINGLE component of modern western society. Somehow, when it comes to dating and sex, people suddenly are able to "transcend race". Bullshit. Mu'fuckas ain't racially transcendent when they on juries, or giving bank loans, or hiring new employees, or building prisons. But race suddenly don't matter when it comes to gettin ass? Yeah, right.

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
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33. "THANK YOU!!!!"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

preach!!

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
6567 posts
Thu Mar-18-04 08:00 PM

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34. "Are you some kind of racist!"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

Love is color blind LMAO

"Riots eruptin around and still we party on..."

  

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loveluv
Charter member
1038 posts
Thu Mar-18-04 08:57 PM

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36. "see imma have to tell you about...."
In response to Reply # 32


          

you ain't gotta spend no money for real love you aint got ta dress up for real love you ain't got ta depend on real love real love make ya strong real love make ya get up off yo ass real love inspire ya love make ya wanna siiiiiiiiiing.

the sad truth is that i don't think the vast majority of people are dealing with a healthy sense of what love really is. i am not talking about race but just a healthy relationship. and i don't think enough people have them. so i know that now that i am in one and that ain't got nothing to do with race just in how she respects me and vice versa. there is no way in the hell im ma let some one anyone not you or family tell me who i should and shouldn't love.

really though the world ain't black and white, and yeah the world is fucked; people are racist and so on and so on. I figure at the end of the day you can't really have that in your heart (sounds corny as hell) when i am sitting at home i am not looking out the window for the man. most people who know me see me as a leftist conspiracy theorist.

  

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Pinko_Panther
Member since Dec 11th 2002
11808 posts
Thu Mar-18-04 09:34 PM

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38. "RE: about romantic love"
In response to Reply # 32
Thu Mar-18-04 09:37 PM

  

          

>I personally don't believe in it. Simply put, I think it's
>a bunch of bullshit designed to make women feel inadequate,
>dependent on men, and spend shitloads of money on things
>that have no intrinsic value, other than to feed into a
>fucked up notion of romance.
>
>About the whole "love see no color" thang: I don't buy it.
>Racial dynamics informs EVERY SINGLE component of modern
>western society. Somehow, when it comes to dating and sex,
>people suddenly are able to "transcend race". Bullshit.
>Mu'fuckas ain't racially transcendent when they on juries,
>or giving bank loans, or hiring new employees, or building
>prisons. But race suddenly don't matter when it comes to
>gettin ass? Yeah, right.

You know, I agree with all of this in a certain context. However, I think it is possible to find similar interests in people of other races depending on the social dynamic in which you meet them in. I am a persian male and I have never dated any persian women because I havn't shared any similar interests with any persian women that I have met. In Vancouver, most persian women that I have met come from an elite, pro-monarchy background and are against my conceptions of a classless world. On the other hand, while I was involved in a third world alliance organization I dated a black woman who shared a lot of political interests with me and although we found many points of disagreement, we essentially saw things eye to eye. I've dated a white woman who I had the same experience with while fighting in a social justice group. I've dated a Chilean woman who enriched my life in so many ways while we both worked together in a Palestinian liberation group. Right now, I am dating a Puerto Rican Marxist woman that I met in a political conference in Mexico (long-distance relationship) -she is intellectual on the same wave as I am. While I can understand the barriers to interracial dating in the context that you are speaking, I don't think you can broadly indict the whole practice altogether. Maybe it is an American thing, I guess the problem of segregation is a lot worse in the US and we are therefore coming from different points of view. I seems to me that in this anomolous land of the US, the idea of segregation is so deeply ingrained in the social consciousness of that society that people seem to get stuck in such narrow definitions of themselves. Especially for those who havn't gone far from home, there seems to this narrow and confined definition of the self as defined by the narrow and confined social borders that they are forced to live within.

For me, interracial dating has never been an issue because from day 1 I have never been accepted by any racial group or ethnicity. I have been marginalized by all these groups, including "my own" and have therefore been forced to create bonds based on very different premises. If I were to follow the race formula, I would have ended up a wretched and lonely hermit. Perhaps then, my own thoughts on humanity stem from the fact that my own identity has been a product of international forces rather than any cultural, racial or ethnic ties. I am happy about this though because I feel as though I am more liberated as a social being than most other people.

********************************************
"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

  

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loveluv
Charter member
1038 posts
Fri Mar-19-04 11:38 PM

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56. "a little confused"
In response to Reply # 38


          

are you arguing for or against the political nature of relationships. i am guessing for since most of your relationships were with people with the same political philosophies. also you say that your reasons for dating outside of your ethinicity is politically based.

  

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Pinko_Panther
Member since Dec 11th 2002
11808 posts
Sat Mar-20-04 02:20 AM

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57. "RE: a little confused"
In response to Reply # 56
Sat Mar-20-04 02:20 AM

  

          

well, in my case it is interest based which happens to be political. But to me, women aren't objects or property to be glanced over and evaluated by their solely their outer qualities. I mean, yeah there has to be attraction but if she's a pop culture bimbo, I don't care what colour she is, she ain't for me. I've known white girls who are more revolutionary that some club hoppin' black girls. I've know black girls who are more revolutionary the some teeny boppin Asian girls with Hello Kitty backpacks. I've known Asian girls who are more revolutionary than Gloria Estefan listening Latinas. And I've known some pretty heavily revolutionized Latinas that would but all these other girls to shame as human beings. I don't think we can polarize one's characteristics based on ethnicity despite what the socialized percentages say.

********************************************
"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
16992 posts
Fri Mar-19-04 04:35 AM

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41. "RE: about romantic love"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

>About the whole "love see no color" thang: I don't buy it.
>Racial dynamics informs EVERY SINGLE component of modern
>western society. Somehow, when it comes to dating and sex,
>people suddenly are able to "transcend race". Bullshit.
>Mu'fuckas ain't racially transcendent when they on juries,
>or giving bank loans, or hiring new employees, or building
>prisons. But race suddenly don't matter when it comes to
>gettin ass? Yeah, right.

On the contrary. Neither my wife or I are color blind - we just appreciate the differences and distinctions that we both bring to the table. It's not a matter of overlapping each other's cultures - it's CONVERGENCE. It means compromising and taking a fifty-fifty route when dealing with shit like holidays, raising kids, and insuring both sides get equal airplay.

Nor do we expect colorblindness. Give how ridiculous people are, and how much scrutiny we come under by Marcus3X-types; all I expect is a little warning when I have a bottle thrown at me when we're walking our dog.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Fri Mar-19-04 06:16 AM

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44. "hey..."
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

>Nor do we expect colorblindness. Give how ridiculous people
>are, and how much scrutiny we come under by Marcus3X-types;
>all I expect is a little warning when I have a bottle thrown
>at me when we're walking our dog.

you're in DC, right? everybody gets a bottle thrown at em.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
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Fri Mar-19-04 06:38 AM

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46. "ROFL!!!!!!!!"
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

Y'know... I really wish that wasn't true, but I'm learning that it's sort of the local Halmark card.

"Welcome to DC!" >bottle hurls<

For real, though - my point is that there are no 'expectations' except by these naive little mutton-heads who've never been jumped by AKAs or Cue's or Godbodys or random others for playing 'salt n' pepper' with one of 'their' women.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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Brooklynbeef
Member since May 30th 2002
4649 posts
Mon Mar-22-04 10:30 AM

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140. "be honest halgren"
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

Given the sordid history the white of various ethnicies and classes in oppressing Black folks i find it a testimony to God's grace that any Black person would even want to marry a white person. Plus, be honest your probably more lambasted by other white folks than you are from people like marcus. It was white folks who created the anti-miscegnation laws not Black and Black folks are far more understanding of marrying outside the race than whites or even Asians. Lastly, since your jewish I know there are jews who advocate Jews marrying other Jews.

>>About the whole "love see no color" thang: I don't buy it.
>>Racial dynamics informs EVERY SINGLE component of modern
>>western society. Somehow, when it comes to dating and sex,
>>people suddenly are able to "transcend race". Bullshit.
>>Mu'fuckas ain't racially transcendent when they on juries,
>>or giving bank loans, or hiring new employees, or building
>>prisons. But race suddenly don't matter when it comes to
>>gettin ass? Yeah, right.
>
>On the contrary. Neither my wife or I are color blind - we
>just appreciate the differences and distinctions that we
>both bring to the table. It's not a matter of overlapping
>each other's cultures - it's CONVERGENCE. It means
>compromising and taking a fifty-fifty route when dealing
>with shit like holidays, raising kids, and insuring both
>sides get equal airplay.
>
>Nor do we expect colorblindness. Give how ridiculous people
>are, and how much scrutiny we come under by Marcus3X-types;
>all I expect is a little warning when I have a bottle thrown
>at me when we're walking our dog.

"Forget Black History Month, how about live an African History Life"-Ansley Burrows

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Mon Mar-22-04 10:42 AM

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141. "thank you, brothaman"
In response to Reply # 140


  

          

preach it.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
16992 posts
Mon Mar-22-04 10:55 AM

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142. "Not really."
In response to Reply # 140


  

          

Truthfully, most tighty whiteys are terrified of being called racist to their face, so while they might stare or follow us around a store, it's never going to be the same. Most black people who have a problem have been much more confrontational... MUCH more confrontational, because in their minds, I'm the one who's transgressed. And it quickly descends from there. I mean, in New York, we never had a problem: Bed-Stuy, Crown Heights, Tremont, Fordham, Kingsbridge, Riverdale, Harlem, Spanish Harlem, Wash Heights - never had a problem fucking ANYWHERE. Here in DC, we've become a novelty item... again.

And with New York Jews, it's really not that deep. We've been intermarrying since the sixties in bulk. My kid brother insists we make the best babies on the planet... but then, he's got sort of an unhealthy crush on Lisa Bonet, so you gotta take that with a grain of salt.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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LK1
Member since Jun 22nd 2003
1113 posts
Mon Mar-22-04 12:24 PM

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145. "isn't lisa bonet"
In response to Reply # 142


          

a jew though? or half jew?

peace,

***I'm a Child of Production***

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
16992 posts
Mon Mar-22-04 12:28 PM

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146. "Hit the nail on the head!"
In response to Reply # 145


  

          

Give that man the booby prize! Mmmmmm.... boooobies....

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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Constant Resistance
Member since Mar 12th 2004
55 posts
Fri Mar-19-04 04:01 PM

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52. "RE: about romantic love"
In response to Reply # 32


          

I have a question for the no interracial dating lobby on this board. How do you feel about children of mixed ethnicity? If you don't accept that these relationships are legitimate in any way, where does that leave those kids?

-If you're not part of the revolution, you're part of the problem

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Fri Mar-19-04 05:36 PM

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54. "the children..."
In response to Reply # 52


  

          

lemme clarify my position. i think that for a Black person to date/marry/make babies with a white person is an example of bad politics. they made a choice that was/is anti-Black (i know i'm gonna catch heat for that assertion). all things considered there still remains something about your partner's whiteness that has gotten you (the Black partner) smitten. and that's so fucked up shit and is really on some self-hate (but no one will admit this).

with that said kids of interracial couples, specifically Black-white couples, will be exposed to their Black parent's bad politics. and too many grow up on some "we are the world" bull. all kids are faced with confusion and try to make sense of the world's craziness. little Black kids born to an interracial couples face a dimension to their confusion that leaves them unable to comprehend and articulate their own situation as a Black person. many either remain confused or actually get gain a perspective once they get to college.

peace,
anthony.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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LK1
Member since Jun 22nd 2003
1113 posts
Sun Mar-21-04 07:32 AM

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108. "RE: the children..."
In response to Reply # 54


          

>lemme clarify my position. i think that for a Black person
>to date/marry/make babies with a white person is an example
>of bad politics. they made a choice that was/is anti-Black
>(i know i'm gonna catch heat for that assertion).

I'm not giving you heat... Can you expound a bit? What does a decision have to consist of in order for it to be "anti-Black"? A baby with lighter shade of melanin?

all things
>considered there still remains something about your
>partner's whiteness that has gotten you (the Black partner)
>smitten. and that's so fucked up shit and is really on some
>self-hate (but no one will admit this).

No, I hear you and I've witnessed what you're talking about. However, I absolutely do not believe this applies to all Black/White couples... It sounds as if you've been there before or something (I mean, really, what other perspective do you have to go off of and have any validity?).

>with that said kids of interracial couples, specifically
>Black-white couples, will be exposed to their Black parent's
>bad politics.

Is that really such a bad thing? I mean, if I hadn't been exposed to what really happened with my Cherokee relatives I would've never made it on this board or vowed to understand the struggle that others face. If my grandmother hadn't moved here from Chile I would've never been interested in the screwed up politics and foreign policy in South America (which led to an interest in more global things). The truth is, there is no way to see America for what it is until someone makes it clear to you (whether that be yourself or someone else), and interracial children are becoming the future of America, like it or not.

and too many grow up on some "we are the
>world" bull. all kids are faced with confusion and try to
>make sense of the world's craziness. little Black kids born
>to an interracial couples face a dimension to their
>confusion that leaves them unable to comprehend and
>articulate their own situation as a Black person. many
>either remain confused or actually get gain a perspective
>once they get to college.

This is true, and I believe the Black/White children certainly have to deal with the most scrutiny. My best friend is Black/White and can't even begin to tell me how screwed up Georgetown is. He has people asking him if he's on the basketball team, you know? And this guy is a friggin scholar with a full ride! But he's told me repeatedly about the existentialist ideas he's having to cotemplate now that he is REALLY contemplating the real world. Can't be Black enough, but he'll always be Black. I hear ya. But, as evolving mammals, we're going to continue to have sex until we're all the same damned color anyway, so I see us interracial kids as the pioneers and poster children--REAL affirmative action. lol.

peace,

***I'm a Child of Production***

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Sun Mar-21-04 11:43 AM

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112. "sorry to break it to you..."
In response to Reply # 108


  

          

but "interracial" children have existed for decades, centuries. it's not the new/hype thing to do, it's been going on forever. question: what qualifies someone as "interracial"? if two people, each having one white parent and one Black parent, have children, are those children interracial? and if those children all have children with people whose grandparents had one white parent and one Black parent, are their children interracial? so on and so forth. it gets crazy after a while and it's rather silly for folk to think that being interracial is the wave of the future. that shit is the wave of the past, a past the let interracial folk know that despite the percentage of "white blood" in their veins they are still niggers.

a Black person can be anti-Black when s/he consciously decides to do something that is opposed to Black solidarity. being Black you have to always be aware of both individual and collective implications.

hmm...having the choice between letting kids be exposed to good politics or bad politics, i'm choosing good politics. i mean i understand you're point about object lessons. but a) there's a urgent need for change so wasting time waiting for folk to come around when it could be nipped in the bud from the jump is silly. why bother? b) i don't think you always need to have an object lesson in order to discern truth. for instance, you don't have to drink spoiled milk to know that it will turn your stomach.

i hear you on your friends case but on the real that happens to all of us. welcome to the family. does he really believe that he'd be exempt? what makes him so special?

i'm really sick of mixed kids complaining that they can't be Black enough. why not? if they are going off things kids said to them in middle school then they are being really petty. get over it, kids are cruel. move on. but if they are going off somethings other adults are saying to them then maybe they are clinging to elements of whiteness.

lastly, people have existed for about 150,000,000 years and we aint the same color yet.

peace.

p.s. to your comment about me having "been there before" in order to have validity. if you're implying that i've interracially dated, you are sadly mistaken. and i have validity because i'm a Black person that can articulate a position. going by your logic only former presidents of the US can critique bush. give me a break.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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LK1
Member since Jun 22nd 2003
1113 posts
Sun Mar-21-04 05:54 PM

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120. "I'm going according to your standards..."
In response to Reply # 112
Sun Mar-21-04 05:57 PM

          

>but "interracial" children have existed for decades,
>centuries. it's not the new/hype thing to do, it's been
>going on forever. question: what qualifies someone as
>"interracial"? if two people, each having one white parent
>and one Black parent, have children, are those children
>interracial?

well, according to your standards, yes. obviously (at least I presumed this was obvious), there is no such thing as "interracial", but for what we are discussing, there is. I'm going on the precedent you have set.

and if those children all have children with
>people whose grandparents had one white parent and one Black
>parent, are their children interracial?

depends how dark they are, who their friends are, etc.. right? I have no clue....

so on and so forth.
>it gets crazy after a while and it's rather silly for folk
>to think that being interracial is the wave of the future.

It's not a philosophy of mine... just look around and then think back about 30 years, you know?

>that shit is the wave of the past, a past the let
>interracial folk know that despite the percentage of "white
>blood" in their veins they are still niggers.

I never claimed that it was a "wave" or a "fad".. just the natural progression of things...

>a Black person can be anti-Black when s/he consciously
>decides to do something that is opposed to Black solidarity.
>being Black you have to always be aware of both individual
>and collective implications.

and now for your definition of "Black":

we've stumbled across what is precisely my confusion...

>hmm...having the choice between letting kids be exposed to
>good politics or bad politics, i'm choosing good politics. i
>mean i understand you're point about object lessons. but a)
>there's a urgent need for change so wasting time waiting for
>folk to come around when it could be nipped in the bud from
>the jump is silly. why bother? b) i don't think you always
>need to have an object lesson in order to discern truth. for
>instance, you don't have to drink spoiled milk to know that
>it will turn your stomach.

I don't think there is any better way to confront such an ambiguous subject better than to be a product (or by-product, lol) of its effects. I sure as hell wouldn't trade my mut family for any others knowing what I know now...

>i hear you on your friends case but on the real that happens
>to all of us. welcome to the family. does he really believe
>that he'd be exempt? what makes him so special?

Nothing except the conclusion that to worry about such things is to create an illusion of self (given the majority of people buy into this illusion), and to recognize that culture doesn't necessarily equal "race" (whatever "race" means).

>i'm really sick of mixed kids complaining that they can't be
>Black enough. why not? if they are going off things kids
>said to them in middle school then they are being really
>petty. get over it, kids are cruel. move on. but if they are
>going off somethings other adults are saying to them then
>maybe they are clinging to elements of whiteness.

or just disgruntled to the point that they are above it and don't give a shit...

>lastly, people have existed for about 150,000,000 years and
>we aint the same color yet.

yeah, but the rates are staggering...

>peace.
>
>p.s. to your comment about me having "been there before" in
>order to have validity. if you're implying that i've
>interracially dated, you are sadly mistaken.

ok...

and i have
>validity because i'm a Black person that can articulate a
>position.

I don't doubt this... I just don't see how your "smitten" comment can be anything other than personal, for sure.

going by your logic only former presidents of the
>US can critique bush. give me a break.

I disagree with this analogy. We are discussing innate sin here, not external decisions. We do not know the true motives of others, and as long as that is the case, who are we to judge? peace,

***I'm a Child of Production***

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Sun Mar-21-04 07:21 PM

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123. "innate sin??"
In response to Reply # 120


  

          

since when was that the subject?

i define Black much like Diop does.
- historical linkages to africa.
- cultural connectedness to Black peoples
- political solidarity with community uplift (or at least non-reactionary behavior.)

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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LK1
Member since Jun 22nd 2003
1113 posts
Sun Mar-21-04 07:44 PM

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125. "RE: innate sin??"
In response to Reply # 123


          

>since when was that the subject?

we are talking about motives.. they are either sinful or otherwise, correct?

>i define Black much like Diop does.
>- historical linkages to africa.

ok... how much? and at what point does someone's "whiteness" become anti-Black?

>- cultural connectedness to Black peoples

ok.

>- political solidarity with community uplift (or at least
>non-reactionary behavior.)

interesting.

>peace.

peace,

***I'm a Child of Production***

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Sun Mar-21-04 08:48 PM

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127. "still confused"
In response to Reply # 125


  

          

>we are talking about motives.. they are either sinful or
>otherwise, correct?

motives of what? i'm really confused at what you're talking about.

>>- historical linkages to africa.
>
>ok... how much? and at what point does someone's
>"whiteness" become anti-Black?

someone's whiteness becomes anti-Black when whiteness is held in equal to or greater value than Blackness. as Black person you must understand that need to uphold and defend your Blackness. and you can't be pro-Black and pro-white at the same time.

so despite your blood lines, the instant the Africa in you is suppressed, you are being anti-Black.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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LK1
Member since Jun 22nd 2003
1113 posts
Mon Mar-22-04 07:17 AM

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134. "RE: still confused"
In response to Reply # 127


          

>>we are talking about motives.. they are either sinful or
>>otherwise, correct?
>
>motives of what? i'm really confused at what you're talking
>about.

I believe that there are three ways to deal with the politics of any relationship. Two of these ways are very sinful, or at least implicate as such:

The first is to ignore them. I believe this is the most common approach in interracial relationships, and it certainly implicates sinful motives. If the politics of any relationship are ignored completely, people are just being dishonest.

The second is to adhere to them... obviously, this is retarded.

The third is to thoroughly acknowledge that politics are there with an understanding that anything defined as political is done so by other people, and to resist their notions. From what I've read, you seem to be saying the third one is impossible to achieve, but I could be mistaken...

The first two are sinful, the last one (if it is possible, which I believe it is) is not.

>>>- historical linkages to africa.
>>
>>ok... how much? and at what point does someone's
>>"whiteness" become anti-Black?
>
>someone's whiteness becomes anti-Black when whiteness is
>held in equal to or greater value than Blackness. as Black
>person you must understand that need to uphold and defend
>your Blackness. and you can't be pro-Black and pro-white at
>the same time.

I can see that, but if being pro-_____ means you want an improvement for whatever group of people, that doesn't necessarily mean that pro-Black and pro-White can't co-exist, even in the same person, IMO... I hear you though.

>so despite your blood lines, the instant the Africa in you
>is suppressed, you are being anti-Black.

agreed.

>peace.

peace,

***I'm a Child of Production***

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
6567 posts
Mon Mar-22-04 07:50 AM

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136. "RE: still confused"
In response to Reply # 134


  

          

>I can see that, but if being pro-_____ means you want an
>improvement for whatever group of people, that doesn't
>necessarily mean that pro-Black and pro-White can't co-exist,
> even in the same person, IMO... I hear you though.

Black and white like Afrikan culture v. European culture is diametrically opposed. Confusion comes into play with people trying to walk the fence, it's either or.

"Riots eruptin around and still we party on..."

  

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LK1
Member since Jun 22nd 2003
1113 posts
Mon Mar-22-04 09:15 AM

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138. "to be totally honest..."
In response to Reply # 136


          

>Black and white like Afrikan culture v. European culture is
>diametrically opposed. Confusion comes into play with people
>trying to walk the fence, it's either or.

I really don't and cannot understand such terms without using stereo-types, and aren't stereo-types something to get away from anyway? I mean, seriously, it's much easier to define Black culture in America than White culture in America because of the population difference. What in the world does white or European culture consist of, anyway?

I mean, my dad is White/Cherokee, and I used to take trips with him to the reservation in Oklahoma to visit our relatives. I recently went to a Sioux reservation in South Dakota, and the cultures were very different. I can only imagine the case would be the same when traveling to Ethiopia and then to Mali.

I don't know... it's all muffled to me. peace,

***I'm a Child of Production***

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
6567 posts
Mon Mar-22-04 07:15 PM

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149. "I suggest you checkout Diop"
In response to Reply # 138


  

          

I'm not talking about stereotypes.

"Riots eruptin around and still we party on..."

  

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LK1
Member since Jun 22nd 2003
1113 posts
Mon Mar-22-04 09:33 PM

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151. "I have... and agreed to disagree..."
In response to Reply # 149


          

things don't have to be called "stereo-types" to be as such. They sure as hell aren't cold facts, so what would you call them? Diop didn't answer this question for me, but dropped tools for the perpetual judgement we're seeing on this post. peace,

***I'm a Child of Production***

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
6567 posts
Wed Mar-24-04 10:45 AM

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159. "Well if you call them stereotypes..."
In response to Reply # 151


  

          

then I don't know what you were reading. He laid out a theoretical framework as valid as any other framework which he sucessfully defended by critics more comeprehensive who'd just come up with an empty claim of "Perpetual judgement" If that is your conclusion I say try again

"Riots eruptin around and still we party on..."

  

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LK1
Member since Jun 22nd 2003
1113 posts
Wed Mar-24-04 02:05 PM

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161. "Afrocentricism is legit on many grounds, but..."
In response to Reply # 159


          

>then I don't know what you were reading. He laid out a
>theoretical framework as valid as any other framework which
>he sucessfully defended by critics more comeprehensive who'd
>just come up with an empty claim of "Perpetual judgement" If
>that is your conclusion I say try again

Considering the Egyptian rulers were an oppressive and hideous aristocracy, it never made sense to me that Diop spoke highly of those who rebelled against them. If anything, wouldn't that be an argument against Pan-Africanism? This is just one example...

I mean, as brilliant as the work of Diop is (I thoroughly enjoy much of it), the Pan-Anything stuff is just not logical, no matter who it's pointed it. If you are the expert Diop scholar you claim to be, I would love for you to cite a passage of his that proves me wrong. I'll read whatever you would like to share. peace,

***I'm a Child of Production***

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
6567 posts
Wed Mar-24-04 02:37 PM

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162. "RE: Afrocentricism is legit on many grounds, but..."
In response to Reply # 161
Wed Mar-24-04 02:37 PM

  

          

>Considering the Egyptian rulers were an oppressive and hideous
> aristocracy, it never made sense to me that Diop spoke highly
> of those who rebelled against them. If anything, wouldn't that
> be an argument against Pan-Africanism? This is just one
>example...

"Hideous and oppressive aristocracy" that's almost as bad as your "stereotypes of perpetual judgement" bull. You had golden ages where people in the Nile got along beautifully you also had all out warfare. You also has external invasions, but how does any of that negate Pan-Africanism. Who did he speak highly of and why? or was he just examining un/sucessful revolution attempts?

>I mean, as brilliant as the work of Diop is (I thoroughly enjoy
> much of it), the Pan-Anything stuff is just not logical, no
>matter who it's pointed it. If you are the expert Diop scholar
>you claim to be, I would love for you to cite a passage of his
> that proves me wrong. I'll read whatever you would like to
> share. peace,

You sound kinda ridiculous, how can you say he is brilliant and you enjoy his reading but then turn around and say anything Pan-African isn't logical. Everything he wrote was Pan-African. Start with the foundation, Northern Cradle and Southern Cradle, southern cradle represents all of Africa which he insisted in all his work is cultural unified. Even in Establishing that KMT was an African civilization he showed the influence from the interior (all Pan-African). I didn't say I was an expert anything but there are volumes and contemporaries who builds on the "illogical" stuff you never gave an example of. Lol.. I'm not going to son you, just take my advice re-read because you surely don't have a grasp from what you have displayed or better yet stick to your bible.

"Riots eruptin around and still we party on..."

  

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LK1
Member since Jun 22nd 2003
1113 posts
Wed Mar-24-04 05:32 PM

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163. "RE: Afrocentricism is legit on many grounds, but..."
In response to Reply # 162


          

This was your quote--the reason we were discussing this issue in the first place:

"Black and white like Afrikan culture v. European culture is diametrically opposed. Confusion comes into play with people trying to walk the fence, it's either or."

This is precisely what Diop doesn't prove.

>>Considering the Egyptian rulers were an oppressive and hideous
>> aristocracy, it never made sense to me that Diop spoke highly
>> of those who rebelled against them. If anything, wouldn't that
>> be an argument against Pan-Africanism? This is just one
>>example...
>
>"Hideous and oppressive aristocracy" that's almost as bad as
>your "stereotypes of perpetual judgement" bull.

lol. I'll read on...

You had
>golden ages where people in the Nile got along beautifully
>you also had all out warfare.

Exactly! Tell me what this says about any sort of Pan-culture?

You also has external
>invasions, but how does any of that negate Pan-Africanism.
>Who did he speak highly of and why?

the rebels AND the aristocrats... that's what I'm trying to say.

or was he just examining
>un/sucessful revolution attempts?

this too.

>You sound kinda ridiculous, how can you say he is brilliant
>and you enjoy his reading but then turn around and say
>anything Pan-African isn't logical.

Not just Pan-African, Pan-Anything.. yes, it's still a ridiculous and racist concept that strips people of all races from their individuality.

Everything he wrote was
>Pan-African.

No, it wasn't. Diop is a brilliant historian, and his evidence on Africa's historcial ancestry in Egypt is what impressed me.

Start with the foundation, Northern Cradle and
>Southern Cradle, southern cradle represents all of Africa
>which he insisted in all his work is cultural unified.

And I disagreed with.

Even
>in Establishing that KMT was an African civilization he
>showed the influence from the interior (all Pan-African).

...still disagree with. Again, what I was impressed with was his historical evidence supporting AFrican civilization in Egypt, not his philosophies on Pan-Africanism.

I
>didn't say I was an expert anything but there are volumes
>and contemporaries who builds on the "illogical" stuff you
>never gave an example of.

Well, you apparently know more than I do, so help me out if it's important enough to comment on.

Lol.. I'm not going to son you,
>just take my advice re-read because you surely don't have a
>grasp from what you have displayed or better yet stick to
>your bible.

I will once I get an actual response. peace,

***I'm a Child of Production***

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
6567 posts
Wed Mar-24-04 06:50 PM

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164. "Last response"
In response to Reply # 163
Wed Mar-24-04 06:56 PM

  

          

This was your quote--the reason we were discussing this issue in >the first place:
>"Black and white like Afrikan culture v. European culture is
>diametrically opposed. Confusion comes into play with people
>trying to walk the fence, it's either or."

>This is precisely what Diop doesn't prove.

The irony, you talking about proof. He lays out the differences between the northern and southern cradle. Any racist or non racist anthropologist acknowledges fundamental differences (spiritually wise Born sinner v. Born divine). Whether you agree or not who cares. Based on those differences the idea of worldview is formulated, from worldview view you get ideology and other aspects of culture. Take it or leave it.

>>Considering the Egyptian rulers were an oppressive and hideous
>> aristocracy, it never made sense to me that Diop spoke highly
>> of those who rebelled against them. If anything, wouldn't that
>> be an argument against Pan-Africanism? This is just one
>>example...
>
>"Hideous and oppressive aristocracy" that's almost as bad as
>your "stereotypes of perpetual judgement" bull.

>lol. I'll read on...

>Exactly! Tell me what this says about any sort of Pan-culture?

Exactly what, you not making sense. As the Mali empire declined and Songhay emerged there was warfare but that doesn't negate a common culture between the two empires. Same thing for KMT, Kush & Nubia. Diop showed linguistic similarities (anthropoligical, religious etc) from all over the continent including the above mentioned. Just one way he showed a common culture.

You also has external
>invasions, but how does any of that negate Pan-Africanism.
>Who did he speak highly of and why?

>the rebels AND the aristocrats... that's what I'm trying to say.

Huh, you're not making sense again, and what is this saying about Pan Africanism

or was he just examining
>un/sucessful revolution attempts?

>this too.

>You sound kinda ridiculous, how can you say he is brilliant
>and you enjoy his reading but then turn around and say
>anything Pan-African isn't logical.

>Not just Pan-African, Pan-Anything.. yes, it's still a
>ridiculous and racist concept that strips people of all races
>from their individuality.

Lol... why do i bother? It's a racist concept! If black people all over the world can see themselves in a common situation and unify according to that, what is racist? You sound like a media blurb "stereotypes" "racist concepts" blah blah blah. Pan Africanism doesn't negate any individuality, that is totally unsubstantiated. If if smaller groups see itself as part of a whole how does that strip individuality? Just seems like you have a problem with unity.

Everything he wrote was
>Pan-African.

>No, it wasn't. Diop is a brilliant historian, and his evidence >on Africa's historcial ancestry in Egypt is what impressed me.

Yes it was, that is the Pan African foundation. The Nile Valley that branches off to the rest of the continent and the diaspora. He proved his case in many ways, one way was connectiong Egypt culturally to the rest of the continent. I'm repeating myself.

Start with the foundation, Northern Cradle and
>Southern Cradle, southern cradle represents all of Africa
>which he insisted in all his work is cultural unified.

>And I disagreed with.

I agreed so what.

Even
>in Establishing that KMT was an African civilization he
>showed the influence from the interior (all Pan-African).

>...still disagree with. Again, what I was impressed with was >his historical evidence supporting AFrican civilization in >Egypt, not his philosophies on Pan-Africanism.

What are you disagreeing with? This is part of how he substantiated KMT as a part of Africa.

I
>didn't say I was an expert anything but there are volumes
>and contemporaries who builds on the "illogical" stuff you
>never gave an example of.

>Well, you apparently know more than I do, so help me out if >it's important enough to comment on.

It seems like a lab rat knows more than you, what do you need help with, you're not asking any real questions only thing you're saying is you don't agree and that you think Pan Africanism is a waste of time.

Lol.. I'm not going to son you,
>just take my advice re-read because you surely don't have a
>grasp from what you have displayed or better yet stick to
>your bible.

>I will once I get an actual response. peace,

I'm done wasting my time, that's my response.


"Riots eruptin around and still we party on..."

  

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LK1
Member since Jun 22nd 2003
1113 posts
Wed Mar-24-04 10:07 PM

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165. "RE: Last response"
In response to Reply # 164


          

"Whether you agree or not who cares. Based on those differences the idea of worldview is formulated, from worldview view you get ideology and other aspects of culture. Take it or leave it."

will do. peace,

***I'm a Child of Production***

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Mon Mar-22-04 07:50 AM

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137. "i see what you're saying"
In response to Reply # 134


  

          

>I believe that there are three ways to deal with the
>politics of any relationship. Two of these ways are very
>sinful, or at least implicate as such:
>
>The first is to ignore them. I believe this is the most
>common approach in interracial relationships, and it
>certainly implicates sinful motives. If the politics of any
>relationship are ignored completely, people are just being
>dishonest.
>
>The second is to adhere to them... obviously, this is
>retarded.
>
>The third is to thoroughly acknowledge that politics are
>there with an understanding that anything defined as
>political is done so by other people, and to resist their
>notions. From what I've read, you seem to be saying the
>third one is impossible to achieve, but I could be
>mistaken...
>
>The first two are sinful, the last one (if it is possible,
>which I believe it is)

i see you're logic but i think it's possible (and IMO preferable) to adhere to your political beliefs AND acknowledge and struggle with politics in a relationship. i'm not talking about fucked up politics, like adhering to the protestant work ethic and all that other BS. but radical philosophies that subvert and seek to destroy the system.

>I can see that, but if being pro-_____ means you want an
>improvement for whatever group of people, that doesn't
>necessarily mean that pro-Black and pro-White can't
>co-exist, even in the same person, IMO... I hear you though.

iont know about this.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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Brooklynbeef
Member since May 30th 2002
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Fri Mar-19-04 04:13 PM

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53. "Exhibit A Volpe who brutalized Louima"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

!

"Forget Black History Month, how about live an African History Life"-Ansley Burrows

  

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KSol
Charter member
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Fri Mar-19-04 05:07 AM

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43. "RE: Politics of/and Love"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>what is love? seriously.

Love can't be put into words; only actions. But there's no greater expression of love on earth than to die for someone.


>a lot of us walk around here theorizing about love
>relationships but no one offers a political understanding.

It's beyond political.






In His service
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy Brindle, www.lampmode.com

Who'd assume that this could be?
You became a man penetrating into human history?

  

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Inkosi
Member since Nov 19th 2002
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Sat Mar-20-04 08:57 AM

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61. "*Adding my 2 cents*"
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Mar-20-04 08:58 AM

  

          

In a perfect world, love outlasts all things, but this world ain't perfect. I'm a hopless romantic so I have a place for love being the "IT." BUT, I also happen to be black in America. No matter how much we want to look pass it or move on, there are issues within ourselves as a group of people that have to be addressed.

Simply put, interracial relationships do nothing to uplift black folks collectively. I understand one doing what's right for themself, but that luxury isn't here yet. Had history (of black folks in this country) went down differently, we could be in a position where race wouldn't matter and everybody would be free to live and love, but we didn't start off on an equal playing field. We need all the people we can making strong black unions, then we can go about with this "we are the world" type idea.

---------------------------------
Do it girl

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
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Sat Mar-20-04 09:01 AM

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62. "Hey! That's my line!"
In response to Reply # 61


  

          

And I disagree with you.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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Inkosi
Member since Nov 19th 2002
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63. "LOL!"
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

What line is that?


And where is your disagreement.

---------------------------------
Do it girl

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
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Sat Mar-20-04 09:15 AM

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64. "the 'my 2 cents'!"
In response to Reply # 63


  

          

I want my damned copyright fee!

And with the whole 'make pure couples' before 'this we are the world' rap... people should be with whoever they like, so long as they are consenting adults and sincerely want to be with each other. What harm can come of a sincere, egalitarian relationship?

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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Inkosi
Member since Nov 19th 2002
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Sat Mar-20-04 09:40 AM

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65. "RE: the 'my 2 cents'!"
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

>And with the whole 'make pure couples' before 'this we are
>the world' rap... people should be with whoever they like,
>so long as they are consenting adults and sincerely want to
>be with each other. What harm can come of a sincere,
>egalitarian relationship?

I would be right with you if we all had started off on equal footing. The "human" me agrees, but the "black in america" me can't quite get with it. The "black community" started off at a disadvantage, it first needs to be strengthened before we can be one big utopia.



Oh yeah, I forgot, people whose politics dont directly affect the love relationship are kind of walking contradictions. The upliftment of the black community starts with the black family, and if the upliftment of the black community is something one is about, how then does that person proceed to marry someone who isn't black?

---------------------------------
Do it girl

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
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Sat Mar-20-04 09:43 AM

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66. "On the contrary"
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

My wife is very proud of her blackness. How is being married to a Jew undermining that?

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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Inkosi
Member since Nov 19th 2002
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Sat Mar-20-04 10:28 AM

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67. "RE: On the contrary"
In response to Reply # 66


  

          

For her individually it doesn't, but for the community as a whole..... It's about having a model to look to. Being able to see that strong family structure between people who look like you, has a positive affect.

Fundalmentally there is a problem, the black community in its current state is phucked, it needs to be fixed, then, we can go forward. It's almost like an 8th grader who reads on a 5th grade level being looked on to read at a 9th grade level. Before it can progress, it first needs to be on that 8th grade level. I don't know if that makes any sense. LOL!

---------------------------------
Do it girl

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
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Sat Mar-20-04 10:47 AM

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68. "just to add on..."
In response to Reply # 67
Sat Mar-20-04 10:48 AM

  

          

a Black person that chooses to date/marry someone white is taking a political position that is fundamentally opposed to Black solidarity.

my advice: Black person that is "proud of their Blackness" yet wants to marry a white person, stay single. Black person that is "proud of their Blackness yet wants to marry a reactionary negro, stay single.

i believe that you should have love relationships that include political righteousness as a major contributing factor (amongst a host of others).

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
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Sat Mar-20-04 11:20 AM

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69. "See, but there are flaws"
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

1) You keep acting like an interacial relationship means mutual exclusivity: that for me to be white and my wife to be black, one must intrinsically overpower the other. In a respectful adult relationship, this is not the case. So long as both sides enter the relationship with the potential to compromiose and adjust, they can overlap comfortably without friction.

2) It's a specious conceit that growing up in a household as you've mentioned will result in a positive character for the children, or community. I come from a single parent household, and ended up well, as did my brother. My wife grew up in a black household with both parents, and our backgrounds are compatable. Similarly, how many fucked up characters have come from two-parent, homogenous households? And how many positive characters have come from heterogenous or single-parent households? You wanna talk romance; I think you've got a pretty romantic view of how a household works. There are no guarantees.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
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Sat Mar-20-04 11:50 AM

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70. "Question"
In response to Reply # 69


  

          

I don't expect you to feel the way alot of black people feel in regards to interracial relationships because it is personal with alot of us and it extends to the collective, but can you see where we are coming from given the position we are currently in, our history, and the route we are going? This isn't about us judging your marriage. We (black people) have serious issues and relationships between black men and women are at the heart of those issues. Comparisons and logic bouts aren't going to negate our problems.

"Riots eruptin around and still we party on..."

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
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71. "I do."
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

And my statements aren't intended to negate them or even convince anyone - they are a contribution to the dialogue, not a manifesto. What you have to understand is that I've observed these difficulties as an outsider, and have had them 'read' to me from the sole of a Timberland boot at times; so the angle I'm coming at this is different than yours, and by definition; won't agree.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
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Sat Mar-20-04 01:02 PM

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73. "i dont think he's romanticizing it..."
In response to Reply # 69


  

          

Inkosi and others, including myself, are saying that it's important that Black folk have ourselves together on many levels, specifically politically.. and to marry/date/have children with a white person is a sign of political fucked-upness (for lack of a better term).

my mom once relayed an observation that she had made when seeing interracial couple (Black-white), she said she often noticed that they put on a very overt public display of their affection. at first i thought she was trippin' but then walking around the city and up at school, i began to notice the trend. to me it's a rather strange thing and it ran the gamut from young folk to seniors. like they were trying to prove something. i'm a random Black dude, what do you have to prove?

i've interpreted it as meaning "yes we're so in love." as if they have overcome the ultimate obstacle of race. GIVE ME A BREAK. no one in a interracial relationship can tell me that race doesn't come into play. race comes into play when Black folk are together, i can only imagine what happens in a Black-white relationship.

it's actually arrogant for folk in a Black-white relationship to even say that their love is so strong that race is unimportant because they are implying that folks in Black-Black relationships can never have strong love.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
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Sat Mar-20-04 01:16 PM

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75. "RE: i dont think he's romanticizing it..."
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

Race comes into play - shit, we joke about that shit all the time. We're not into this monocultural LOVE CONQUERS ALL fuckery - we're into this "We love each other and respect each other, so fuck these jealous crabs who can't deal with it." She's supportive of my Jewish heritage and I support her African-American heritage (not 'Afrikan' - she's very clear that she's Chicago Black, with roots in Mississippi and New Orleans). My family don't give a crosseyed Colorado fuck - they knew we'd met in college, and that she was educated and career-oriented were their only concerns. Her mother's side of the family is a little fucked up over it, but her father was cool once he saw I wasn't just some lame, but someone who would protect and care for his daughter. See, both my parents were white and Jewish and that didn't save their marriage, so there was no emphasis on that. Like I said, homogoneity doesn't guarantee a fucking thing.

My wife and I are affectionate with each other publicly, but we'll yell and cuss up a storm publicly, too. I guess that's suspect when you're the 'MIXED COUPLE'. But then, that's the scrutiny I'm talking about. Your mom wouldn't have looked twice if we were a Puerto Rican couple snuggling as we walked down the street- but we're mixed, so she made an off the cuff observation that she passed onto you, and here we are. No disrespect to your mom, but it may not even have been a VALID observation! It was a superficial thing she noticed on the street, then made assumptions. Did she talk to anyone in theses couplings? Does she know any personally? Come on, man...

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
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Sat Mar-20-04 03:05 PM

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84. "so defensive"
In response to Reply # 75
Sat Mar-20-04 03:06 PM

  

          

ha...you came after me and my moms. i must have touched a nerve.

so if i got you right folks that are opposed to interracial marriages are "jealous crabs"? i don't wanna misquote you.

but in your fit of rage you proved my point.
">I support >her African-American heritage (not 'Afrikan' - she's very >clear that she's Chicago Black, with roots in Mississippi >and New Orleans)."

any Black person that doesn't see themselves as an Afrikan has identity issues all of which are based in fucked up politics.

peace.

p.s. how could someone be jealous of something they have no desire for? or is your arrogance misinterpreting opposition/indiffence as jealousy?

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
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Sat Mar-20-04 05:02 PM

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88. "RE: so defensive"
In response to Reply # 84


  

          

>ha...you came after me and my moms. i must have touched a
>nerve.
>
>so if i got you right folks that are opposed to interracial
>marriages are "jealous crabs"? i don't wanna misquote you.

'Jealous crabs' in reference to men who get jealous regarding YT making time with one of 'their' women. most of the ones I've had more than two words for have glass jaws and noses.

>
>but in your fit of rage you proved my point.
>">I support >her African-American heritage (not 'Afrikan' -
>she's very >clear that she's Chicago Black, with roots in
>Mississippi >and New Orleans)."
>
>any Black person that doesn't see themselves as an Afrikan
>has identity issues all of which are based in fucked up
>politics.
>

That's funny. So... anyone who disagrees with that narrow assessment has 'fucked up politics'? I don't want to misquote you.


>peace.
>
>p.s. how could someone be jealous of something they have no
>desire for? or is your arrogance misinterpreting
>opposition/indiffence as jealousy?

And we were having such a civilized conversation, too... my 'arrogance'? I interpret jealousy as someone wanting what I have: a healthy, normal relationship with someone of the opposite sex. Like when someone is staring at me and my wife, then approaching her while I go to the bathroom and asking her "when she's gonna come home", but won't do it while I'm there. Maybe a better word is cowardice. Is that arrogance - to want someone to deal with me face to face? Maybe that's not how they do things in Queens...

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
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Sat Mar-20-04 05:32 PM

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89. "maybe i'm wrong..."
In response to Reply # 88


  

          

but if you're Black then you're Afrikan. that doesn't sound narrow to me. it's simple, let alone A FACT. i mean, give me a break. did your wife get to Chicago or Mississippi thru osmosis? if i'm wrong let me know. when did Afrikans cease being Afrikans??? enlighten me.

hey buddy, there's no need to pull the macho shtick. i could really care less how many "glass jaws" you've encountered or you mocking Queens. i find eurocentric notions of manhood humorous at best. but do you. protect your "non-Afrikan" dame.

now back to the subject at hand, love is political. it's impossible to isolate your personal life and interaction from your interaction with larger society. politics is always in play.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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Nettrice
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Sat Mar-20-04 05:56 PM

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90. "My college roommate..."
In response to Reply # 89


  

          

...was Black (from N.C.) and she swore she wasn't African (I don't go for that "k" b.s.) and I asked her:

"So where are your folks from?

North Carolina

And before that?

I don't know...America

So they're native American

No

Then, I don't understand because native Americans come from America

Well, I don't know but I do know they are not from Africa!"

This is a true story and over time she came around to the idea.

>now back to the subject at hand, love is political.

One type of love, yes. That's not spiritual but something tells me that most of this is not about spirit.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
6567 posts
Sat Mar-20-04 06:18 PM

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92. "Easy their Nettrice..."
In response to Reply # 90


  

          

>(I don't go for that "k" b.s.)

Why is that B.S? Was it B.S. in the 60's when Haki Madhubuti inspired thousands maybe even millions to think of themselves and where they come from in a more self-accepting deterministic way. It was B.S. when he said spell Black with a capital B and spell Afrika with a K, was that not a proclamation in re affirming who we are as a people when many people didn't want to be black and didn't want to associate with "Africa" Do you have some profound love with the letter "C" and the English alphabet that Afrika is B.S.? Should we not be able to distinguish between when we speak of Afrika and what we mean by it and what others mean?

"Riots eruptin around and still we party on..."

  

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Nettrice
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Sat Mar-20-04 06:44 PM

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94. "RE: Easy their Nettrice..."
In response to Reply # 92


  

          

>Do you have some profound love with
>the letter "C" and the English alphabet that Afrika is B.S.?

Nope but it really has no bearing (use of K) since we all speak English.

>Should we not be able to distinguish between when we speak
>of Afrika and what we mean by it and what others mean?

Now, if we spoke another language entirely that would be different but we speak the master's tongue.

BTW - I started using B on my own because I like to but I do not insist that others do. I understand the need for some people to use a B or "k" but those are just words, not actions.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
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Sat Mar-20-04 07:19 PM

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98. "So it's not BS, you're just not with the program"
In response to Reply # 94


  

          

.

"Riots eruptin around and still we party on..."

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
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Sun Mar-21-04 03:29 AM

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100. "HMMMM...."
In response to Reply # 89


          

What's funny is...this whole debate kinda proves the point that you can't isolate the personal from the political.

I don't know dhalgren or his wife, but she don't feel a connection with the place of her origin. Essentially, when a black person says that "i ain't no african" shit, what they are expressing is a belief that the history of their ancestors began with the slave trade. Dhalgren, that would be the equivalent of you saying you got no connection with, say, Abrahamic religion or the Medieval extermination of Jews during the Inquisition. Or any other Jewish person saying Judaism began in Germay in 1936.

I don't think you would be willing to shit on your history that way...and i don't think your wife would ever expect you to.

Oh well...

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
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Sun Mar-21-04 03:41 AM

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101. "Again, on the contrary"
In response to Reply # 100


  

          

My wife is very aware of her African ancestry. The difference, she knows African immigrants, and knows there is a very clear distinction between say, Ghanaians and American creoles. They are distinct ethnic groups at this point, and she makes that clear. I am also aware of my 'Abrahamic' roots, but am an American Jew - not European or Israeli or Ethiopian. It's so fucking fashionable to excise the 'American' from everyone's nationality because most it carries a taste like ash when spoken, but despite the distasteful roots of the hyphenation; there is a distinction. African-American culture is unique and incredible - and it's African-FLAVORED, but not African... any more than Italian-American style is by definition how they get down in Milan, or Chinese-American is how they do things in Hunan.

But that's a whole 'nother other discussion.

And again, I'd like to make clear that I'm making my case as example of the exception: not as a platform of conversion. I understand the arguments as posted, I just don't agree with them. I am not talking about creating a world where everyone marries everyone til we have this middle-ground monoculture. I am saying that love and politics can remain on separate plains, and as an extension of this, convergent relationships can exist without the constant power play or ego-tripping that seem to categorize said relationships on this board. I'm also going to post this paragraph further down, just to make sure this disclaimer isn't missed.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
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Sun Mar-21-04 04:23 AM

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103. "RE: Again, on the contrary"
In response to Reply # 101


          

A couple of points:

I agree american culture is unique. But I believe that uniqueness is VERY much a by-product of AFRICAN cultural retentions (now that's a whole nother discussion altogether).

I ain't gonna use your relationship as an example (which is really funny, considering the question asked, lol)...but we live in a culture where middle-class waspishness is seen as the norm. The closer you get to that the more normal you are. That includes skin color, ideas of love, sex, religion, etc, etc. This idea feeds those people of color who disclaim their place of origin.

ANY person of color that solely identifies with their American experience is outta they damn mind because

1) This country ain't even 300 years old yet
2) This country does it's damnedest to fuck up people of color

I recognize the differences that exist between me and say the nigerian dude down the street. But I would never be silly enough to say that i got more in common with an irish man in wisconsin than i do with a "kaffir" in capetown, simply because i'm in america.

And besides all that shit...the idea of romantic love is PURELY european and is no more than 400 years old or so.

  

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loveluv
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Sat Mar-20-04 06:14 PM

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91. "RE: i dont think he's romanticizing it..."
In response to Reply # 73


          

I am wondering about the monolithic "Black People". Using the logic that is used to stop people from dating outside their race is also used by people for religion. son't date outside the religion, not good for building good____ children, he won't understand where you are coming from ____ this may contribute to some of my issues, i am a black person who is niether christian nor muslim. I also do not intend to become one. but many times this is a large stumbling block.

also i am just thinking that the politics of the monolithic us has not worked so well. many groups, well Blacks are special cause of our lack of an exact "homeland", but most other groups don't deal in the monolithic us so to speak or at least in public or in large groups. would it be beneficial for each individual to take responsibility for himself and stop thinking of the group. by thinking for himself i mean sort of taking care of home, and reaching out on an individual level (each one teach one sort of). this may be a little conservative and naive, in my thinking just thinking out loud.

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Sat Mar-20-04 06:32 PM

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93. "give me examples..."
In response to Reply # 91


  

          

where not keeping the collective in mind has ever been beneficial to Black people?

the reason it doesn't work is because of divide and conquer.

the language of monolithic Black community is also imposed. it's used to persuade uncommited Blacks to believe that things will be best if "you did for self." but at the same time you're treated like a monolith by the system. how's that for some racist ass manipulation.

i'm not saying starve while you help feed everybody else on the block. we should eat together.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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loveluv
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Sat Mar-20-04 06:46 PM

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95. "RE: give me examples..."
In response to Reply # 93


          

I think that when we look at the jewish com and the asian com they don't really move as per se a large group but they take care of business in the home. also when we look at successful warfare in this day and age we are talking about guerilla warfare al qaeda isn't monolithic. you know even if they catch bin laden that shit will be big news but it ain't gonna stop the machine. like with martin malcom etc. also the tactics that are being used against us are a little more subversive so why are we still using still using these old fashioned tactics.
on a whole other note we as a people refuse to assimilate, while i agree, we must look at the consequences of that (Not assimilating). jews asimilate asians assimilate and soon latinos will probably assimilate just like the italians irish eastern europeans before them. we on the other hand and for very obvious reasons have not assimilated. sorry iam in a rush.

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
6567 posts
Sat Mar-20-04 07:16 PM

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97. "You just said..."
In response to Reply # 95


  

          

A whole lot of nothing. He asked for one example where solidarity did not work in the interest of black people?

"Riots eruptin around and still we party on..."

  

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loveluv
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Sun Mar-21-04 12:00 AM

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99. "RE: You just said..."
In response to Reply # 97
Sun Mar-21-04 01:08 AM

          

i am pessimistic in my way of thinking. the collective will never exist again. yeah it would be great if we could all be together, but i don't think it is likely to happen. in the past our goals were much more defined, i think that yeah they worked, erybody had to stand on the bus, erybody could not get work, erybody could not live there. it is not all black folk per se that are targeted (well execept that whole driving while black), but now it is a different era. we have become much more diverse and our concerns are more varied both economically and socially. if you want an example it would be hard to provide one. but i would say that without a doubt right now it ain't working. wait hold on you can't get a boycott going cause people got different issues. like with the whole jesse jack lets boycott nike so we can get jobs. well the nig on the street don't give a fuck about no mid to upper level management jobs he ain't qualified for in the first place. so he is gonna go buy him some nikes and fuck a jesse jack. or how you gone get some blacks to participate in protests outside they own damn jobs. not likely unless it got something to do with them. you want to help the poor, but lets see what would happen in a black middle class neighborhood someone try putting too much section eight in there or if they put in some kind of outreach program that will bring in an unwanted segment of society. the monolithic we is becoming more and more of a myth.


  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
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Sun Mar-21-04 06:08 AM

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107. "you have bought the hype, brothaman"
In response to Reply # 99


  

          

two things:
1) you're romanticizing history. you're implying that every one Black was down with the struggle but that's simple not true. the main difference between today and yesteryear is that we have more reactionary negroes, financed and supported by racist whites, that actively work as agents of white supremacy.

2) COINTELPRO. let's not forget the J. Edgar Hoover made it explicitly clear that the FBI must work to prevent the rise of a Black messiah. hence, the state assassinations of Malcolm X, MLK, Fred Hampton, etc. as well as the concerted effort to get Huey Newton addicted to drugs by putting it in his food while he was in prison. and not to mention how the CIA and state department have manipulated and disrupted Black governments around the world from the Congo, to Haiti, to Jamaica, to Panama, to Guyana, to Grenada. and the list goes on.

these are two aspects of ways in which the state has worked to obstruct Black solidarity. with knowledge we can't just hang heads low and say "let's give up." imagine where we'd be.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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loveluv
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Sun Mar-21-04 10:19 PM

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128. "RE: you have bought the hype, brothaman"
In response to Reply # 107


          

I don' think i am romanticizing the civil rights movement and like you just proved having a head makes it easier to knock it off. like the assinations. i also don't think you are addressing the issue that the "what blacks want" has become much more diverse i don't think you can say they have not. the upper level management brother does not have the same needs as the factory worker/police officer/fireman/teacher and they do not have the same needs as the unemployed and undereducated. what needs to be adressed is a platform that adresses all those diverse needs. i don't know if that can be done. so i am advoctaing that we adress our own needs instead of waiting for the white man or the next martin malcom to adress them cause right now al sharp and jes jack ain't getting it done or i may be wrong. that could mean charter schools, community based activities. that would make a big difference period.
and nowhere in any of my posts do i advaocate giving up i just think that the means of struggle must change, which should be evident. how can we expect results if we coming at the enemy with strategies from 30 40 years ago. they would have to be pretty damn stupid not to be able to beat that.

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
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Mon Mar-22-04 04:24 AM

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131. "what?"
In response to Reply # 128


  

          

i also don't think you
>are addressing the issue that the "what blacks want"

Black people, like all oppressed people, want an end to their oppression and subjation.

how can we expect results if we coming at
>the enemy with strategies from 30 40 years ago.

who ever said this??

i'm arguing for fostering Black solidarity within Black communities. are you arguing against that? is that the antiquated strategy you speak of?

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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loveluv
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Mon Mar-22-04 06:52 PM

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148. "i think ..."
In response to Reply # 131


          

we are on the same page. i think what i can see as what i was saying may be construed as some republican/conservative pull yourself up by your bootstraps bs. that is not what i am saying while i advocate that i think that we need to look at smaller organizations. that deal with specific needs within idividual communities. my example was jewish people and asians. i don't think that they have forgoten their comunity, but the bigger picture is making the little steps. gettin the kids edmucated, saving creating personal wealth and then using that within to create more schools programs etc. there are plenty of jewish com centers and i have always heard about asian communites creating study centers etc. i think that we need to take personal responsibility also and stop waiting for the next martin/malcom. no doubt we need larger orgs but they should be more like an legal center sort a like the anti def league, that is what the naacp kinda was at some point right i think. we should have more charter schools and other programs.
what i was saying as far as assimilation is that we as a group have not assimilated. the other groups have. we have to look at what that means. i have never worked at a company and called it "us at....", "we at..." i think that is a telling sign cause white people say it all the time. that means that they are thinking of the company in totally different terms than i am. i am separate from the company and that can make a lot of difference. i am not sure how to handle that though. cause i would never openly advocate assimilation. but it is definitely one of the steps to becoming succesful aka colin and condeliza.

  

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loveluv
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152. "I agree with solidarity but...."
In response to Reply # 131
Tue Mar-23-04 03:24 AM

          

I think you are going too far when you say who a person can and can not have a relationship with. I am not saying that most people in interracial relationships are in them for the right reasons. i probably believe as you do that they are not but what about the exception what about the people that are in their relationships for the right reasons. can we actual condemn them without a trial. and what are we gonna do suspend them from being black. you are arguing for solidarity but you are already willing to draw a line in the sand over an issue. that is not solidarity. this is going back to relationships now. i don't think that we can make assumptions about people without knowing the info. on the other hand i am dating outside of my race but i would be hesitant, to date a white person, but if it was the right person i would have the balls to have the relationship. even now me and my girl have convos but she is not coming from the american perspective, she is not american. so it is easier to sit down and have a conversation that is not loaded down with all that history.

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
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Tue Mar-23-04 04:27 AM

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153. "what are you talking about?"
In response to Reply # 152


  

          

this sounds like some pseudo-reverse psychology.

my argument:
- Black people , specifically, must consciously resist notions of romantic love because its western. and western ideology has raked us over the coals from centuries.

- if you're Black and your relationship is based on romance, in whole or in large part, then you have fucked up politics.

- fucked up politics stands in opposition to Black solidarity.

now to your point about interracial couples. i've encountered very few couples, same race or otherwise, that seek to understand politics perspective of their relationship because we've all been thoroughly colonized and have false hope in romantic love. of those couples not one was interracial and the conversation i've had with folk that date interracially, generally in my experiences, are understand or convey as largely romantic. with such euphemisms as "we're so in love" "s/he is for me" "s/he completes me" etc. pick any cliche you want.

that's my observation.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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loveluv
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Tue Mar-23-04 06:39 AM

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154. "sorry it is late here so this might be like some stream"
In response to Reply # 153


          


of conciousness ish

>this sounds like some pseudo-reverse psychology.
that is what solidarity is about, right, stickin together no matter what?
>my argument:
>- Black people , specifically, must consciously resist
>notions of romantic love because its western. and western
>ideology has raked us over the coal.
i am willing and have thrown out the bible and quran etc, and i don't eat pork (both my parents doing), but damn that's just askin a lot; no romance, no slow dance, no long kiss goodnight, no two three hour phone call about nothing.
>- if you're Black and your relationship is based on romance,
>in whole or in large part, then you have fucked up politics.

really fucked up politics so you are saying that romance and politics are diametrically opposed and can not coexist?
can romance be the start of a relationship?

>- fucked up politics stands in opposition to Black
>solidarity.

so what do you think should be the basis for revolutionary love besides a shared ideological belief or do you think revolution and love are diametrically opposed also?

Really you don't believe in romantic love? you don't tell this to women do you?

hello my name is _______. i am an aquarius. i believe in the revolution, but i do not believe in romance. so if you would like to be down with the struggle and you love a good protest. i'm your man float float on.

okay i can see the whole romantic ideal as western and even possibly bad. but i like to think that one can balance that with the hard work that goes into a good relationship. my parents were black nationalists to the bone. but they were romantic. sure it can't all be about the romance. and that probably is part of the problem that exists in modern marriages, not just black. after the romance there does have to be something else there . i can't speak about other people's relationships but i know as far as mine goes i think we have to think a little more about the struggle that our relationship does and will cause. and those conversations are not romantic at all.

i think i got it you see romantic love like karl marx sees religion another opiate of the masses right? we all concerned about who's loving who and our romance that we are not thinking about the important things right? the revolution, family( wait without a little romance there ain't no family. and how do you supposed we get little revolutionaries) etc.

i am really trying to see exactly what and why you are making these arguments.

*this sounds kinda like china when the gov could tell you "you need to do revolutionary work in such and such province and your wife will either stay at home or go to a completely different province to do such and such revolutionary work. and you wouldn't see each other for like years.


  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
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Tue Mar-23-04 08:00 AM

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155. "hmm..."
In response to Reply # 154


  

          

you're not hearing me. i'm arguing for CONSCIOUS RESISTANCE. decolonization is difficult and there's no point where you can say, "okay, now i'm decolonized." it's a process and a struggle that requires commitment. a constant struggle.

solidarity is fostered and maintained not blind acceptance.

i'm arguing that romantic love, as we have been conditioned to understand, articulate, and practice it, supports and upholds western hegemony. so in order to defy or resist western hegemony, individuals in turn CANNOT sling to romantic love.

the revolution is based on love. not romantic BS but sincere commitment.

>Really you don't believe in romantic love? you don't tell
>this to women do you?

whoa buddy, you trending into the politics of attraction (and that's why off topic..LOL). i'd be the first to admit that i struggle with my colonization but struggle with and adhere to are two different things. you can hold a revolutionary philosophy yet be equipped to navigate the system that you seek to destroy. by consciously resisting i always seek to use western concepts/institutions to my/our advantage political. its much like how you have radical Black faculty members teaching at white universities, you use their desire to create pseudo-diversity to agitate and spark more Black revolutionary thought.

you play your position. you don't adhere to it, you use it to gain politically and otherwise.

>okay i can see the whole romantic ideal as western and even
>possibly bad. but i like to think that one can balance that
>with the hard work that goes into a good relationship. my
parents were black nationalists to the bone. but they were
>romantic.

see i think you're confusing romance with Black love. they are to seperate things.

i've never said that romance can't be the springboard for a relationship but in a relationship that matures it needs to be duly politicized and desposed of. and once it deposed of it should then be the springboard for other relationships.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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loveluv
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Tue Mar-23-04 07:29 PM

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156. "one last question"
In response to Reply # 155


          


>i'm arguing that romantic love, as we have been conditioned
>to understand, articulate, and practice it, supports and
>upholds western hegemony. so in order to defy or resist
>western hegemony, individuals in turn CANNOT sling to
>romantic love.
>
why do and how do you feel romance and love are a part of the western culutural hegemony and why do you feel it is detrimental? i thought i understood with my whole marx opium theory which i was willing to accept but what is your opinion?

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
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Thu Mar-25-04 08:47 AM

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169. "response"
In response to Reply # 156


  

          

>why do and how do you feel romance and love are a part of
>the western culutural hegemony and why do you feel it is
>detrimental?

we have all been thoroughly colonized and suffer from cultural imperialism on many different levels. one of those levels is what we come to know as love and/or romance. we are all well acquainted with the dominant articulation and expectations.

all cultural imperialism is detrimental because it denies peoples, individually and collectively, to create and understand things for themselves without the tongue or mind of the imperialist. for instance, many Black folk in America speak english, i'm saying that because we speak english doesn't mean that the english language emboldens us to clearly and specifically articulate our condition because the language is not our own. there is resistance, however, through Black English or Ebonics but the resistance is only a testament to Black struggle against cultural imperialism not an embrace of it. the same needs to be more common when it comes to love and/or romance.

>i thought i understood with my whole marx opium
>theory which i was willing to accept but what is your
>opinion?

i don't get down with marx like that.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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Nettrice
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96. "RE: give me examples..."
In response to Reply # 93


  

          

>i'm not saying starve while you help feed everybody else on
>the block. we should eat together.

And people need to contribute equally...everyone needs to give what they can.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Nettrice
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72. "Rude Awakenings"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I am often amused at how difficult it is for white folks to put themselves in the shoes of Black folks, no matter how close, how intimate, how loving the relationship. From a political standpoint, it has much to do with power and influence...white folks benefit more than Black people ever have. What comes along with this is the false expectations and conditions folks experience as of result of this power.

What is the next step beyond acknowledgement?

Okay, so you are white and you acknowledge that these false expectations and conditions exist but how does that translate to change...you have a mate who is Black and may come from a community that is disempowered. How do you love her and how can you help her effectively deal with her experiences?

It reminds me of when I was 17 and becoming an activist in college. A white guy I was friends with in high school followed me to college and showed signs that he wanted to engage in a more intimate relationship. He told me that he was aware that racism existed and was against it. Then, his mother, a wealthy white woman (old Southern money), came up to visit and we all went out on the town. He wanted me to like his mother and he wanted to show his mother that he liked me. When we returned his mother tried to tip me like I was hired help! I walked off before I said something that would probably offend her and him. Minutes later he came by my room to explain that he told his mother she was in the wrong...BUT he also tried to get me to understand that his mother was the way she was because (fill in sorry excuse here).

In this case, my white friend was not able to move from acknowledgement to awareness and action. He could not change his mother and I knew that he would be unable to truly get what I was trying to do in my work (helping Black folks empower themselves)...no matter how much he said he loved me. I needed him to ACT not love...

I was just 17 at that time but I learned that white folks often should do more than just be aware of what the conditions are. I did not want to have to explain things every other minute of the day in the outside world or even put him in the middle of my world and his. I did not want to have to stop myself from reacting to discrimination just because the other people were his friends or family...even if the love was there, so I made a choice. I moved on.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
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Sat Mar-20-04 01:04 PM

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74. "RE: Rude Awakenings"
In response to Reply # 72


  

          

>I am often amused at how difficult it is for white folks to
>put themselves in the shoes of Black folks, no matter how
>close, how intimate, how loving the relationship. From a
>political standpoint, it has much to do with power and
>influence...white folks benefit more than Black people ever
>have. What comes along with this is the false expectations
>and conditions folks experience as of result of this power.
>
>What is the next step beyond acknowledgement?

I'm not sure I know what benefit I receive (beyond having a wonderful supportive woman with me): i've caught beat downs, been alienated from a power structure I could have theoretically integrated into, brought us endless scrutiny and bullshit, and... yeah. S'about it. Where are these benefits I'm supposed to be recieving?

At 17 years old, you weren't necessarily going to get sincere, mature relationship regardless of race. I'm sorry it was traumatic, but you're saying the other person involved came from a long, storied wealthy Southern community, so I don't think it's indicative of the blue collar shlubs like myself just looking for someone to be happy with.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
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Sat Mar-20-04 01:19 PM

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76. ""blue collar shlubs" It's all about the workers!!!"
In response to Reply # 74


  

          

*waiting for Pinko_Panther*

"Riots eruptin around and still we party on..."

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
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Sat Mar-20-04 01:27 PM

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77. "Oh, stop it."
In response to Reply # 76


  

          

I'm not Pinky Winky - it's a description, not a classification. My old man works for the state dealing with junkies and my mother just got laid off from the help desk at Fortunoff's - that's a far cry from the 'old southern money' she's describing. Even if they were married, that's not exactly a fortune on hand.

But yes, I'd say class is a factor.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
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Sat Mar-20-04 01:33 PM

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78. "Lol @ pinky winky"
In response to Reply # 77


  

          

I was just being facetious

"Riots eruptin around and still we party on..."

  

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Pinko_Panther
Member since Dec 11th 2002
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Sat Mar-20-04 02:33 PM

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79. "RE: Lol @ pinky winky"
In response to Reply # 78
Sat Mar-20-04 02:33 PM

  

          

"Facetious"?? Careful chains, I wouldn't use too many "white" words if I were you, it might undermine your credibility.

********************************************
"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
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Sat Mar-20-04 03:10 PM

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85. "Lighten up Pinky"
In response to Reply # 79
Sat Mar-20-04 03:13 PM

  

          

I speak a white language so what do you expect? Don't get mad because i don't accept your white doctrine. I may be a proletariat but I'm no socialist/marxist.

"Riots eruptin around and still we party on..."

  

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Pinko_Panther
Member since Dec 11th 2002
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Sat Mar-20-04 03:24 PM

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86. "Come on chains,"
In response to Reply # 85


  

          

Don't I get to be a little facetious in my own defense every now and then?

********************************************
"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
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Sat Mar-20-04 03:26 PM

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87. "Of course..."
In response to Reply # 86


  

          

if you can't be an ass in activist then surely the sky must be falling.

"Riots eruptin around and still we party on..."

  

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Nettrice
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Sat Mar-20-04 02:36 PM

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80. "RE: Rude Awakenings"
In response to Reply # 74


  

          

>I'm not sure I know what benefit I receive (beyond having a
>wonderful supportive woman with me): i've caught beat downs,
>been alienated from a power structure I could have
>theoretically integrated into

By right and privilege you are already a part of the "structure". It's not about integration unless you're from Ireland. My point here is that with your mate you have to deal with the b.s. but without her you don't, i.e. the workplace. The barriers that she might have to deal with on her own, the world, is not the same as what you could choose for yourself as a white man.

>brought us endless scrutiny
>and bullshit, and... yeah. S'about it. Where are these
>benefits I'm supposed to be recieving?

Stats already show the benefits compared to Black men in the workplace and society. There's less of a brick or glass ceiling for white men and there are certain expectations and conditions in society that benefit white men over Black men or women. Racial profiling is one example and there are documentaries such as "Murder on a Sunday" that highlight these conditions.

>At 17 years old, you weren't necessarily going to get
>sincere, mature relationship regardless of race.

Why not? I was mostly independent at age 17, putting myself through college and living on my own. I was able to make my own choices and I already had a sense of direction and responsibility at that age. When I was 17 it was critical that I make decisions to help me reach certain goals and I had different priorities than many of my peers. Also, I was committed to helping people empower themselves in my community. I was quite aware of the expectations and conditions.

>I'm sorry
>it was traumatic

It wasn't that traumatic, just another example for me to learn from. It wasn't the first...even then.

>but you're saying the other person
>involved came from a long, storied wealthy Southern
>community

Nope. I said his parents came from old Southern money. He chose to isolate himself from all that but not when it came to college tuition. He had to appease his parents because they were paying...he was dependent by choice and I did not have a choice.

The politics of it is that you have a choice...many Black folks do not as far as the power structure. It's not a level playing field. My white friend's rude awakening was that his love (for me) did not cut it with his family and he did have a choice even if he was not willing to choose but he still had to choose. My awakening was that I did not have as many choices and I knew that the journey would not be a happy one. Happiness is a journey, not a relationship or an outcome.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Nettrice
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81. "RE: Rude Awakenings"
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

I was just reminded of another friend of mine who is Korean and she had to hide her Black and Latino boyfriends from her mother because her mother often became violent if she found out that she was dating outside her race. She was estranged for a looong time from Moms who used to beat her for dating Black. Now, this is politics from inside the gate. She felt she had no choice to abort her baby when she became pregnant because she could not see any peace resulting from her choice to be with and start a family with a Black man. I remember feeling sorry for her.

My point is that I still don't think people are ready to deal with race within their gates on top of dealing with politics outside them. With a more level playing field will come the change that many folks in interracial relationships are seeking, to be accepted and respected.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Brooklynbeef
Member since May 30th 2002
4649 posts
Mon Mar-22-04 10:18 AM

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139. "If her boyfriend was white"
In response to Reply # 81


  

          

I guarantee mom dukes would n't have a problem with it?

"Forget Black History Month, how about live an African History Life"-Ansley Burrows

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
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Sat Mar-20-04 02:51 PM

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82. "Okay, that's clearer"
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

I thought you meant I gained some sort of advantage from the RELATIONSHIP, nit from who I already am. That, i understand - but it's independant of my marriage. Meaning that it's a condition that exists separately, and would persist even if we weren't together. So I'm not sure I understand... just help me connect the dots.

And no, at 17 I was largely emancipated as well. Ten years later, I am a very different person and much more mature. My expectations and how I interact are... different. I don't know how else to say it.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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Nettrice
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83. "RE: Okay, that's clearer"
In response to Reply # 82


  

          

> i understand
>- but it's independant of my marriage. Meaning that it's a
>condition that exists separately, and would persist even if
>we weren't together. So I'm not sure I understand... just
>help me connect the dots.

Since marriage is such a hot topic as of late I think there are a lot of expectations that come with who you are married to and some of that is political (status, civil rights, etc.). That's why some people still go for arranged marriages. It has to do with family and community, as well as what happens behind closed doors. Even though my mother married a Black man, her family thought she'd married beneath her. After they had divorced he talked to me often of his treatment by her family and he told me that had some affect on their relationship. Marriage often has quite an effect on relationships with loved ones and community folks outside the marriage. Some folks don't care but Black people are on that other side of the divide, in general and there is a lot of pain there as it relates to accepting white folks within the gates.

>And no, at 17 I was largely emancipated as well. Ten years
>later, I am a very different person and much more mature. My
>expectations and how I interact are... different. I don't
>know how else to say it.

Well, I am a lot more self-assured and mature than when I was 17 but I am still very aware of race even when I shouldn't be. It's about the skin I am in as well as what I identify with.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
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Sun Mar-21-04 03:42 AM

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102. "Disclaimer note"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

As this thread goes on, I'd like to make clear that I'm making my case as example of the exception: not as a platform of conversion. I understand the arguments as posted, I just don't agree with them. I am not talking about creating a world where everyone marries everyone til we have this middle-ground monoculture. I am saying that love and politics can remain on separate plains, and as an extension of this, convergent relationships can exist without the constant power play or ego-tripping that seem to categorize said relationships on this board.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
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Sun Mar-21-04 05:03 AM

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104. "isn't this a concession?"
In response to Reply # 102


  

          

if your relationship is the exception, then you must agree that there is a rule, right?

"I am saying that love and >politics can remain on separate plains, and as an extension >of this, convergent relationships can exist without the >constant power play or ego-tripping that seem to categorize >said relationships on this board."

explain this. and if your politics are thoroughly "integrated" into your personal life then how can love not be political as well?

here's a mundane example: recycling. it's tied into all sorts of political elements that include conversation and clean streets. but many folks have integrated it into their personal lives without even a second thought.

now, i'm making the claim that politics "enters love relationships" the same way, unnoticed and "naturally." i'm suggesting that we all should acknowledge those politics so that relationships could evolve rather than ignore them and uphold notions of romanticism.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
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105. "RE: isn't this a concession?"
In response to Reply # 104


  

          

>if your relationship is the exception, then you must agree
>that there is a rule, right?

I agree that there is an 'accepted norm'. That's different than a 'rule', because rules can be broken, have punishment structures, and are codified.

>
>"I am saying that love and >politics can remain on separate
>plains, and as an extension >of this, convergent
>relationships can exist without the >constant power play or
>ego-tripping that seem to categorize >said relationships on
>this board."
>
>explain this. and if your politics are thoroughly
>"integrated" into your personal life then how can love not
>be political as well?
>

I never said they were 'integrated' - I said specifically that they exist on a separate plane (actually, I said 'plain' but whattayagonnado - i was up at 4 am). Meaning, my politics are not a qualifier for our relationship, nor a lynchpin. Admittidely, if were a neocon jerkoff, chances are I might not have approached my wife in the first place, but on the other hand there was a period in my life where I was working with Refuse and Resist, while my wife insisted I was basically working with a bunch of condescending elitist whiteys. That brought politics into the households, but didn't interfere on principle - it was just another disgareement that arises in all relationships: the "I'm right, you're wrong" argument.

>here's a mundane example: recycling. it's tied into all
>sorts of political elements that include conversation and
>clean streets. but many folks have integrated it into their
>personal lives without even a second thought.
>
>now, i'm making the claim that politics "enters love
>relationships" the same way, unnoticed and "naturally." i'm
>suggesting that we all should acknowledge those politics so
>that relationships could evolve rather than ignore them and
>uphold notions of romanticism.

I can agree with this statement: politics as a stealth element in a relationship. If that's your case, then you've won your argument: up until now, I've undertstood your argument as "politics as explicit, highlighted element posited into the relationship" ie 'i am a white liberal, you are a black liberal - let our relationship commence as thus, with these two points as anchors.' Given that one paragraph you just wrote, politics is by nature a matter of opinion, and thus implicit to ANY relationship, I suppose,.

Congratulations. YOU'VE WON THIS ROUND, GADGET! BUT I'LL BE BACK.

Actually, this was by far the best debate I've had around here in a minute. Thank you!

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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Nettrice
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106. "RE: Disclaimer note"
In response to Reply # 102


  

          

Hey, it's all peace. When I was responding I wasn't even thinking much about your relationship...there are plenty of personal experiences I or others have had that I can refer to. My father, who for 30 years worshipped the African in Black women, one day admitted that he was attracted to some white women but that his Black wife would react even more to cheating with a white woman than Black. He was just talking but he was trying to deal with his "politics" and his "lust".

My point has been that psychological love is ego-based and therefore it can be very political. Is love really attachment? It is really a destination or outcome or is it more than that? I have learned that authentic love is spiritual and it can be about seeing spirit in other people. Black people really do have a double consciousness and Black women may even have triple. My goal is not to merge or converge these things but to learn how to balance and live with them. I overcome these things through self-love and spirituality.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Taharka
Member since Apr 18th 2003
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Sun Mar-21-04 10:41 AM

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109. "Is this about "Interracial" relationships"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

or love in general?



I don't think anyone has defined love as good as Chris Rock when he said love is "when you love the crust of a muthafucka".

But on a serious note, to be honest I couldn't tell anyone what love is I mean now that I think about it maybe it is dedication persistance respect etc. etc. I say this because experiences over the past couple of days have really made me look at how fucked up Africans in Amerikkka are(especially the children) it is fuckin depressing, yet I still have hope that we will wake up.

<--- The lovely Ms Hill when she wasn't thrown off.

LOOK WHOS RAPPIN NOW
http://www.myspace.com/quil215

  

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brokenchains79
Member since Nov 22nd 2003
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Sun Mar-21-04 10:53 AM

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110. "Can the kids be more fucked up than us?"
In response to Reply # 109


  

          

Considering they are a product of us.

"Riots eruptin around and still we party on..."

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
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Sun Mar-21-04 11:23 AM

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111. "That's a WHOLE 'nother post."
In response to Reply # 110


  

          

.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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Taharka
Member since Apr 18th 2003
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Sun Mar-21-04 11:44 AM

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113. "RE: Can the kids be more fucked up than us?"
In response to Reply # 110


  

          

yes because they are the future and that means that the same bullshit will be perpetuated and like any problem with time it only gets worse.

And again I ask the creator of the post do you mean love in general or between so called "races"?

<--- The lovely Ms Hill when she wasn't thrown off.

LOOK WHOS RAPPIN NOW
http://www.myspace.com/quil215

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
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Sun Mar-21-04 11:50 AM

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114. "i'm not the creator of the post..."
In response to Reply # 113


  

          

but i did make the statement that dhalgren quoted.

i was referring to love, generally.

in asking, what is love? i was seeking to add a political understanding to the dialogue. which is bombarded with notions of romance.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
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Sun Mar-21-04 01:48 PM

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117. "I was quoting HueyShakur"
In response to Reply # 113


  

          

It started as love in general, then went into tangents regarding mixed couples, then came back to love - focusing on consensual relationships.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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DeCisive
Member since Feb 18th 2004
1985 posts
Sun Mar-21-04 12:00 PM

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115. "RE: Politics of/and Love"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

In my opinion love is a mutual understanding. An example of a mutual understanding is one with God being the only true love.

~Complex with the creative content on a conquest with concepts and context as concrete as poetry
~Its real and ill when I be sitting still yet still rocking to my mental rhythme.
~Its just right when I write

http://www.myspace.com/decisive147

  

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Brooklynbeef
Member since May 30th 2002
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Sun Mar-21-04 01:08 PM

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116. "I'm Impressed with the maturity of this discussion"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I have differences with 718 but i appreciate the exchange and surprise that it did n't break down into armed conflict.

"Forget Black History Month, how about live an African History Life"-Ansley Burrows

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
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118. "Scary, isn't it?"
In response to Reply # 116


  

          

I'm as alarmed as you are. Who KNOWS what might happen next? A civil discussion about the Middle East?

... I might just have a heart attack.

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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loveluv
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Sun Mar-21-04 10:23 PM

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129. "big ups"
In response to Reply # 116


          

i agree i may have difference of opionions with huey and brokenchains, but i felt it was a good discusion. i see where they are coming from. hopefully they see my side. i am not advocating the dissolution of the struggle just tweakin it a bit. which might be a post unto itself.

  

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Taharka
Member since Apr 18th 2003
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Mon Mar-22-04 05:56 AM

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132. "In response to the topic"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I wouldn't say love is political, that is a strong word, but decisive and planned of course. People chose who they chose for a reason I would say arbitrary. Usually attraction/looks, social status, money, intelligence, etc. etc.

<--- The lovely Ms Hill when she wasn't thrown off.

LOOK WHOS RAPPIN NOW
http://www.myspace.com/quil215

  

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Brooklynbeef
Member since May 30th 2002
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Mon Mar-22-04 11:01 AM

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143. "Come Clean: The beef is White and Black relationships"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

It kills me and is another testimony to white dominance but why is interracial a euphemism for white and Black. Once again our existence must revolve around white folks. More than 50% of African-Americans have Native ancestry. Natives married into Africans communities and vice versa even long before Columbus and they live harimously respecting each others distinct cultural dynamics. But why is that when whites invade various areas around the world and they inter-marry with the female population why is that these mixed offspring reject their mothers culture in favor of the dominant one. The fact that you have more Black men in the prison system than college compunded with the high mortality rate due to degenerative diseases such as prostate cancer, high blood pressure, colon cancer produces more available pool of Black women. Large segements of the Black population is being disenfranchised as a result of white supremacy which directly relates in the rise of white/Black couplings.

When Black women asks where are the brothers at in school or at work it has alot of validity? Nettrice said there are inscrutable indignities upon indignitites that you can probably can' begin to understand staring with that fact that 99.9% of Black folks carry our owners name.

"Forget Black History Month, how about live an African History Life"-Ansley Burrows

  

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dhalgren718
Member since Jun 20th 2002
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Mon Mar-22-04 12:29 PM

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147. "THAT'S tight."
In response to Reply # 143


  

          

Very VERY fresh fucking post, bruh! Good points!

'expert in beef - go to Brooklyn'!

http://50yearsfromnow.blogspot.com
MONGO IS A RACIST PIECE OF SHIT.

  

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Brooklynbeef
Member since May 30th 2002
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Mon Mar-22-04 11:07 AM

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144. "The history of romantic love"
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Mar-22-04 11:11 AM

  

          

I was watching some Joseph Campbell, the Power of Myth series were he discusses love. Not to say individuals in other cultures did n't appreciate individuals on a one on one basis but the social system was dveloped in Europe and it was in direct contravention against the Church since marriages were arranged and annointed by the Church the fact the individuals placed individual love over tradition was very political and revoultionary for Europeans. The history of Valentine's day comforms this.

"Forget Black History Month, how about live an African History Life"-Ansley Burrows

  

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Constant Resistance
Member since Mar 12th 2004
55 posts
Mon Mar-22-04 07:38 PM

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150. "RE: Politics of/and Love"
In response to Reply # 0


          

For such a radical board of activists, I wonder why it seems to have occured to no one that the myth of romantic love is nothing more than that: a myth.

Furthermore, it's a myth that is propagated, reinforced and reiterated by the very people that profit from us investing incredible amounts of time and energy into trying to create perfect loves, perfect romances and perfect families when there has never been any such evidence that any such thing exists.

There's nothing wrong with sex--in fact, there's nothing wrong with love--but the romantic monogamy-thing everyone is talking about on this thread is just so much bullshit to keep the people in line. Between searching for the mythical holy grail of true love, and desperately trying to hold on to whatever we think it is, we don't pay attention to what's going on around us.

The individual feels massive love for all kinds of people. Unfortunately, we're taught to supress it, instead of sharing it. Love is supposed to be some kind of weakness until you find some 'deserving' person and then you're allowed to admit that you love them, if you promise not to love anyone else and you implicitly promise each other that you won't grow or change. Then you spend the rest of your respective lives working to make house payments and buy fucking diamonds and shit, or just to keep a couple of your favoured individuals fed and sheltered with no regard for anyone else. You don't have time or energy to worry about the kids down the street or in the rest of the world, and anyway, as you hear over and over, true love is the most important thing. More important than justice, more important than respect; all is fair in love and war.

True love is the most important thing in a way: Che said that the true revolutionary is guided by great feelings of love. Feel the love you have for your lover or your family and use that to extrapolate to the rest of the world and suddenly love becomes revolutionary. As soon as you can't stand to see anyone be treated in a way you couldn't stand to see your "true love", I think you become a true revolutionary.

-If you're not part of the revolution, you're part of the problem

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
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Wed Mar-24-04 10:33 AM

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158. "RE: Politics of/and Love"
In response to Reply # 150


          

I feel you on this...Richard Pryor said love is the easiest emotion...all you gotta do is sit and talk with somebody for a minute. But the idea of a universal love that just IS flies in the face of the romantic, self-immolating, selfish-ass fairy tale shit we get shoved down our throats.

Now, i've been crazy enough to tell the women that i date that i don't believe in romantic love. TRUST ME, that shit has made for some pretty interesting conversations:

Her: You know, valentine's day is coming up..
ME: Yeah?
Her: You wanna do something special?
ME: Naw, I don't really get into that type shit...i thiknk romance is absolute bullshit..
Her: What the fuck do you mean by that?

Now repeat this cycle about 12 times, for each major holiday and birthdays, and there you have my recent dating history...lol

Just kidding...sort of

  

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Brooklynbeef
Member since May 30th 2002
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Wed Mar-24-04 11:11 AM

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160. "I feel yah"
In response to Reply # 158


  

          

I em off the bat, I ain't wit dem holidays.

"Forget Black History Month, how about live an African History Life"-Ansley Burrows

  

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Monique
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Tue Mar-23-04 09:10 PM

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157. "romantic @ heart......"
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Mar-23-04 09:34 PM

  

          

and for me love is....

unconditional acceptance between two people with the desire to...
communicate
understand
respect
openly discuss--anyyyy and everything.
sharing---doing without being asked(so in tune to one anothers likes/dislikes)
let not intimacy be the ruling union(preferabbly in marriage), but have such a profound bond that you come toghether without persuasion, making it all the more better.

Love Outside Of Two People In A Union Of Sort.
the same without the intimacy.

When We Do Not Communicate--Understand--Respect--Openly Discuss On Either Level, Well The "politics" begin in.....

Court And Or Many Other Ways.And In Part The Usual Being Out Of Greed, Lust,Just A help Mate(been there done that when not in love).

Politics Also Come Into Play Even When We Bond As One.

I Am Trying To Think Of A Bill(?like medical?) One Would Have To Pay That A Spouse Made And Deceased, But It Is nothing Tangibly Available, Except The House, Furnishings...--(why should another have to pay the balance--"all debts paid baby"--).
straddle the fence and still trying to figure this one out.

so much legislation, but, oft times neccessary.

dang i got a taste for summ sauted onions/garlic and cold oranges,
unconditionally my husband will kiss me.

soon going>>>>www.dangelosangels.com




***********************************************************
NELLY: I'm Humble In Life Taking Nothing For Granted

AFRICA: www.bbcnews.com

THE BROKER: John Grisham

  

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travismallen
Member since Nov 20th 2003
33 posts
Thu Mar-25-04 07:09 AM

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166. "RE: Politics of/and Love"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Sure there's politics in Love, but I belive it plays a more base role than it's being given. I think that the politics in a relationship heavily effect how you choose a mate in the topic of "what you have in common". This individual level of politics is probably addressed more than people are acknowledging here. For example if a couple in a relationship have different views on abortion, but love each other that doesn't mean that they are simply going to pretend it doesn't exist. But if the political tension create by the disagreement is less than the pleasure they get from being together a compromise is made.

On a social level, I think there are too many variable to give it weight some are giving it.

For example if my individual politics, for any reason, do not include an item that other feel other's feel I'm effecting socially (i.e. race, gender, community welfare)then why am I ignoring politcs? It seems like to me that because of politics' Pro vs. Con nature there seems to be this "for us or against us" attitude. Just because I may not care about someone's cause doesn't mean I'm against them. I read an analog about this issue being like being a fireman and choosing whether to put out the fire or keep walking. That's too extreme IMHO because it doesn't account for the fact that I may not see the fire or may not see the fire the way others do. And if others try to get me to see their point of view and I don't, that still doesn't imply that I've choosen a political position...

"I am what I am..." - Popeye

  

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loveluv
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Thu Mar-25-04 07:21 AM

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167. "RE: Politics of/and Love"
In response to Reply # 166


          

But if you are anti abortion and your girl is pro abortion then you got issues on that level. i would have to say that if the politics come into practice then you got issues that are relationship ending right?

  

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loveluv
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Thu Mar-25-04 07:23 AM

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168. "RE: Politics of/and Love"
In response to Reply # 167


          

but then the biggest demonstration about the parties not being that different is mattlin and can't think of his name but he was clinton campaign manager. and they are married.

  

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travismallen
Member since Nov 20th 2003
33 posts
Thu Mar-25-04 09:26 AM

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171. "RE: Politics of/and Love"
In response to Reply # 167


  

          

I'd agree that it would be relationship ending if a couple had issues on all politics, but an individual's politics are comprised of multiple positions of many issues and I doubt that all successful relationships are so because they have no political tension. Political difference is natural - it's nothing more than a debate. And just as some debates don't resolve to clear answer or a "right or wrong", nor will political differences in both a couples' relationship, and people in Love and "society" or a particular "culture"...

"I am what I am..." - Popeye

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Thu Mar-25-04 09:16 AM

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170. "the analogy was in reference...."
In response to Reply # 166


  

          

to people that claim to have some sort of consciousness. i'm in no way pretending that consciousness is a struggle. all i'm saying is that commitment to consciousness is not a fence issue, either you committed to it or not. if you sit the fence, you are admitted implicitly that your politics are fucked up.

peace.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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travismallen
Member since Nov 20th 2003
33 posts
Thu Mar-25-04 10:01 AM

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172. "RE: the analogy was in reference...."
In response to Reply # 170


  

          

>to people that claim to have some sort of consciousness.
When you say consciousness to you mean if a person is aware a political issue?

Because there are issues that people will debate that don't really mean anything to me.

>if you sit
>the fence, you are admitted implicitly that your politics
>are fucked up.

So if these issues that I'm aware of but don't believe require me to choose a side on never get a solid Pro or Con from me, my politics are fucked up?

I can't agree with that. There are some things that are political debates over more or less opinions/preferences of two groups that I don't necessarily identify with. Personally there are some debates where I can see validity in both sides of the argument, but because it doesn't effect me directly I let those who it does effect deal with it. Case and point "Under God" in the pledge. I don't care either way, because I never said it to begin with, but currently its a political issue. I guess my point is there are so many causes/issue that somebody some where wants addressed and I think that we should have to feel like it is mandatory for us to choose a side if it simplely doesn't effect us.

Now, I can see truth in your argument if there is a political debate that would clearly have an impact on a person and the group that person idenifies with. Should this person choose to straddle the fence to prevent dithering feathers, perhaps their politics are fucked up. Or perhaps they're not strong enough to stand for something...

"I am what I am..." - Popeye

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Thu Mar-25-04 10:17 AM

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173. "mayne,"
In response to Reply # 172


  

          

i'm not talking about mundane shit like the pledge of idiocy.

i'll say that consciousness is the practice of critical understanding your own existence as it is relative to society AND working for a desireable change for both individuals and the collective. pretty basic.

no to claim to Black and conscious, IMHO you must be willing to be sure the your are working in the interests of Black people. so back to the analogy, if you run away from the fire (the fire being the urgent state Black folk are in) you are not working in the interest of Black folk. which in turns means you are not conscious but purport to be. in turn meaning you have fucked up politics and you're trifling.

peace.

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<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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travismallen
Member since Nov 20th 2003
33 posts
Thu Mar-25-04 10:54 AM

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174. "I dig..."
In response to Reply # 173


  

          

I just want to be clear on your argument. You're saying people who don't care about black issues and who claim to be conscious have fucked up politics. Does this also include those who claim to be conscious, but don't agree with some of the "ideas" that some who claim to be conscious believe...hmmm...I guess that explain why there's been so much talk of interracial dating in here...

My position still stands with politics and love, as I believe it includes this angle. I think that if you're conscious you going to put that in your evaluation of what you have in common with someone. Generally, I'd imagine most would find it hard to be with someone who couldn't relate to being as passionate about something like socially aware Blacks are, but if they can relate, I don't believe that they have to agree on ALL the issues. I don't think love is some cop-out for addressing the issue and I think that if there is too many differences in politics love isn't going to be enough. I see love and politics as separate identies that can effect each other...

Side Note:
I noticed the tendency to want to lump those who aren't conscious and those who don't choose a position with those who choose a position that's different from most "conscious" Black as having fucked politics or Uncle Toms. If I were to said I was against Affirmaive Action (just a hypothetical!Which is funny because I work in a AA and EO department)people would be throwing shit about me and my "Blackness" without even hearing an argument or what I think was needed.

"I am what I am..." - Popeye

  

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