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Subject: "Culture of Poverty?" This topic is locked.
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k_orr
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80197 posts
Fri Aug-11-00 03:34 AM

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"Culture of Poverty?"


  

          

Do you believe in it?

From William Niskanen
"Welfare is both a consequence and a cause of several conditions best described as social pathologies. These conditions include dependency, poverty, out-of-wedlock births, nonemployment, abortion, and violent crime. The basic hypothesis of this study is that welfare dependency and the other pathologies are jointly determined and are derivative of a common set of other conditions."

k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
nope....
Aug 11th 2000
1
Me either.
Aug 11th 2000
17
      Don't be surprised
Aug 14th 2000
35
           huh?
Aug 14th 2000
38
                Elaboration
Aug 14th 2000
52
                     RE: Elaboration
Aug 14th 2000
54
Don't know if it's the same thing...
Aug 11th 2000
2
RE: Don't know if it's the same thing...
WISDOMQUEST88
Aug 11th 2000
3
glad someone is paying attention
Aug 11th 2000
4
RE: You're Right
WISDOMQUEST88
Aug 11th 2000
5
RE: Don't know if it's the same thing...
Aug 11th 2000
12
Theres a couple of way at
Aug 11th 2000
6
agree/disagree
Aug 11th 2000
7
RE: agree/disagree
Aug 11th 2000
14
here we go...
Aug 11th 2000
19
What you are doing
Aug 11th 2000
16
here we go again...
Aug 11th 2000
20
RE: What you are doing
Aug 13th 2000
29
First, I'll talk about education.
Aug 14th 2000
34
thank you for clarifying
Aug 14th 2000
37
I'm not getting any work done today
Aug 14th 2000
43
      your assumption seems to be
Aug 14th 2000
50
           $0.02
Aug 14th 2000
57
                RE: $0.02
Aug 14th 2000
RE: Theres a couple of way at
Aug 11th 2000
8
RE: Theres a couple of way at
Aug 11th 2000
15
      RE: Theres a couple of way at
Aug 12th 2000
26
           Schools are in no way responsible
Aug 14th 2000
40
                RE: Schools are in no way responsible
Aug 14th 2000
41
RE: There's a couple of ways
WISDOMQUEST88
Aug 11th 2000
9
The real problem with poor people is...
Aug 11th 2000
10
      RE: The real problem with poor people is...
WISDOMQUEST88
Aug 11th 2000
18
      RE: The real problem with poor people is...
Aug 14th 2000
39
           Work With Me Here
WISDOMQUEST88
Aug 14th 2000
65
                RE: Work With Me Here
Aug 15th 2000
66
                     RE: Work With Me Here
WISDOMQUEST88
Aug 15th 2000
67
      RE: The real problem with poor people is...
Aug 12th 2000
27
           Going Back To the Basics
WISDOMQUEST88
Aug 12th 2000
28
           RE: The real problem with poor people is...
Aug 14th 2000
44
                RE: The real problem with poor people is...
Aug 14th 2000
47
Do you believe that people are
Aug 11th 2000
13
      RE: Do you believe that people are
Aug 14th 2000
46
           RE: Do you believe that people are
Aug 14th 2000
64
RE: Don't know if it's the same thing...
Aug 11th 2000
11
well...
Aug 11th 2000
21
      the majority of welfare folks are lucky?
Aug 13th 2000
31
           hello spirit
Aug 14th 2000
32
Perhaps it's not the same...
Aug 11th 2000
23
RE: Culture of Poverty?
Aug 11th 2000
22
whoa now there player....
Aug 11th 2000
24
      RE: whoa now there player....
Aug 12th 2000
25
RE: Culture of Poverty?
Aug 13th 2000
30
RE: Culture of Poverty?
Aug 14th 2000
33
      i agree...sorta
Aug 14th 2000
36
RE: Culture of Poverty?
Aug 14th 2000
42
RE: Culture of Poverty?
Aug 14th 2000
45
RE: Culture of Poverty?
Aug 14th 2000
48
RE: Culture of Poverty?
Aug 14th 2000
55
Were they gonna
Aug 14th 2000
49
not as hard as...
Aug 14th 2000
51
RE: Were they gonna
Aug 14th 2000
56
i just wanna say...
Aug 14th 2000
53
      RE: i just wanna say...
Aug 14th 2000
58
           hit the "help" button above (n/m)
Aug 14th 2000
61
I agree w. Shaun_G
Aug 14th 2000
59
this is a response to #49 (n/m)
Aug 14th 2000
60
RE: I agree w. Shaun_G
Aug 14th 2000
62
      i dunno
Aug 14th 2000
63

nahymsa
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1734 posts
Fri Aug-11-00 04:52 AM

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1. "nope...."
In response to Reply # 0


          

I don't believe in it.

  

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k_orr
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80197 posts
Fri Aug-11-00 12:37 PM

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17. "Me either."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

>I don't believe in it.


I was kinda surprised how many folks believed it, or at least some form of it.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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nahymsa
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1734 posts
Mon Aug-14-00 04:51 AM

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35. "Don't be surprised"
In response to Reply # 17


          

It makes sense when you think about it.

There's this "I hate ghetto people" vibe throughout this site. Its rare to see critiques of middle class/uppper class culture (black or otherwise) in this spot.

  

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BooDaah
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32690 posts
Mon Aug-14-00 05:09 AM

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38. "huh?"
In response to Reply # 35


          

please elaborate. what specifically are you referring to in reagrds to the "I hate ghetto people" vibe?

Additionally, what if anything do you disagree with regarding this discussion.

You've never been shy before, enlighten those who live in the darkness.

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html
-----------------------------
Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
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nahymsa
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1734 posts
Mon Aug-14-00 10:01 AM

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52. "Elaboration"
In response to Reply # 38


          

There are constant posts about the negative aspects of "ghetto" culture. The negative criticisms can go from welfare to gold teeth.

Its funny how some of the same people talking about handouts don't discuss the government financial aid/student loans/scholarships they have may receive. Some of these same cats talking about waste & materialism in the poor communities don't examine what they do with their "discretionary" income.

>Additionally, what if anything do you
>disagree with regarding this discussion.
>
I disagree that there is a "culture of poverty" that keeps people poor.

  

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BooDaah
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32690 posts
Mon Aug-14-00 10:12 AM

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54. "RE: Elaboration"
In response to Reply # 52


          

>There are constant posts about the
>negative aspects of "ghetto" culture.
>The negative criticisms can go
>from welfare to gold teeth.

I agree. Just to go on the record, I don't hate ghetto people (Hell, I AM ghetto people ), I just hate the ghetto. but that's a different discussion.

>Its funny how some of the
>same people talking about handouts
>don't discuss the government financial
>aid/student loans/scholarships they have may
>receive.

true (i guess). but there is a differnce between welfare as assistance and welfare as sustainence. and the difference with a school loan is that you're responsible for paying it back (ultimately), so it's a little different. i do see your point though. the funny thing (which again is a new discussion) is that welfare exists in a thousand forms. the government gives set asides to the rich (tax breaks/shelters), farmers (subsities) and a thousand others. I think the fact that that some pick at one and not the other is what you're addressing. correct?

> Some of these
>same cats talking about waste
>& materialism in the poor
>communities don't examine what they
>do with their "discretionary" income.

question though (again I see what you're saying) but if you're poor do you HAVE discretionary income? (for a real example) to spend $100 on some sneakers or a cell phone or some rims or a weave or whatever and live in the projects, isn't that odd or a little wrong to you? now i know we (notice i didn't say they) deserve nice things too (in an attempt to find a little happiness in a effed up situation), but in your opinion aren't there wiser ways to spend that "discretionary" money (to use your term)? that's the devil's advocate position. thoughts?

>I disagree that there is a
>"culture of poverty" that keeps
>people poor.

how exactly do you define the term? what do YOU call the societal and internal factors which perpetuate poverty (many are discussed throughout).

just in case you aren't noticing, i'm baiting you for viewpoints

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html
-----------------------------
Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------

  

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BooDaah
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32690 posts
Fri Aug-11-00 05:29 AM

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2. "Don't know if it's the same thing..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

But I DO believe in a "Welfare mentality". This is when a person becomes reliant upon the government and its programs for sustainance to the detriment of their desire to support themselves. Additionally, it can result in an individual not thinking/believeing they can arise beyond the life of one who must depend on outside support.

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html
-----------------------------
Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------

  

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WISDOMQUEST88

Fri Aug-11-00 10:37 AM

  
3. "RE: Don't know if it's the same thing..."
In response to Reply # 2


          

BooDah, you hit the nail on the head. Your definition is exactly what it is meant when said living in a "culture of poverty". But it also includes the masses that live in it and just dont realize it because that's all they know. When a lot of people hear that phrase they automatically assume that it is directed towards African-Americans, but it has nothing to do with race at all. Anyone who has ever grown up in an impoverished environment COULD be subjuct to that culture. Let's face it, In my dealings with people, I see that kind of reality everyday. So yes, I do believe the "culture" exist. Now could one ever really break out of it? Depending on ones determination and drive, like any cycle it can be broken.


  

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BooDaah
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32690 posts
Fri Aug-11-00 10:47 AM

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4. "glad someone is paying attention"
In response to Reply # 3


          

As someone who has been able to dissect the "ghetto mentality" from the inside, I know the power that allows this submission to oppression to rampantly exist. the whole nurture/nature discussion in regards to social development could spark a whole different discussion, but I can briefly say that trying to get folks to see that you don't HAVE to allow your circumstances to define you is a very serious fight.

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html
-----------------------------
Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------

  

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WISDOMQUEST88

Fri Aug-11-00 11:09 AM

  
5. "RE: You're Right"
In response to Reply # 4


          

It is an ongoing battle. Unfortunatly, we dont live in an utopian soiety. Never have never will. For as long as you have people who are indigent, the culture will always exist in some form or another. The impoverished will always depends on the rich, and the rich will always need the impoverished. It's like the yin and yang principle. Again, you're right, you dont have to allow your circumstances to define you, but I guarantee you the moment you shake that label, there's always another one waiting.

  

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k_orr
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80197 posts
Fri Aug-11-00 12:25 PM

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12. "RE: Don't know if it's the same thing..."
In response to Reply # 3


  

          


But it
>also includes the masses that
>live in it and just
>dont realize it because that's
>all they know.

So poor folks in the ghetto only know what they

>Depending
>on ones determination and drive,
>like any cycle it can
>be broken.

But now government program could assist them?

k. orr



http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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Wendell
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8207 posts
Fri Aug-11-00 11:15 AM

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6. "Theres a couple of way at"
In response to Reply # 2


          

looking at this situation. Your statement places the person "desire" under question. But realize that in a lot of situations, a persons desire has nothing to do with making a decision to receive aid or take a job. I don't have actual demographic numbers, so I will go from people I know (black people from my old neighborhood). These people tend to have limited or questionable educational background (meaning social promotion). That educational background, along with racial steering, limits the types of jobs they are qualified for, meaning very low, minimum wage type jobs. In these cases, it actually cost more for them to take a job, than to stay home and collect a check. The decision is now FINANCIAL and has nothing to do with "desire".

Realize that with a new job comes new expenses like travel, food and clothing. If the new job does not pay enough to cover those expenses and in most cases it won't, then why work if you can net the same amount (or more) by staying home.

Children also pay a part in the decision, but for our conversations purposes, we will not broach that subject.

Peace

Pseudonym-less Wendell

Peace

Wendell

  

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BooDaah
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32690 posts
Fri Aug-11-00 11:40 AM

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7. "agree/disagree"
In response to Reply # 6


          

>But realize that in a lot of
>situations, a persons desire has
>nothing to do with making
>a decision to receive aid
>or take a job.

yeah it does. if you wanna work you can get a job. if you wanna learn to read you can. desire IS the key. for many it's easier to not do that is TO DO (or at least try). Actually what I'M getting at is the way the "System" will trick some folks into believeing that you CAN"T do better and shouldn't try. For many it IS easier to sit back and "get over" than it is to make an effort to sustain yourself. The tricky thing is that when you relay on ANYBODY to sustain you you're reliant upon that person and their whims. If they decide you are no longer qualified, or change whatever other rule they choose, you have no choice but to bend over and take it.

> These people tend to
>have limited or questionable educational
>background (meaning social promotion).

you gotta elaborate on this one...

>That educational background, along with
>racial steering, limits the types
>of jobs they are qualified
>for, meaning very low, minimum
>wage type jobs.

but there are ways to overcome all of that (or at least ways to try). don't het me wrong, there are hurdles aplenty. but at some point if you say "I'm not even going to TRY and get past that" or fuss about the fact that the hurdle exists, you're essentially pulling yourself out of the "race". the mentality I'm talking about is the one where you get so tired of fighting that you give up and either believe that there IS no way out, or convince yourself that no matter what you do you'll lose anyway. getting specifically to the jobs thing, i know PLENTY of folk who would rather sit and get a check than get a job (or two if that's what it takes). period.

>In these cases, it actually
>cost more for them to
>take a job, than to
>stay home and collect a
>check. The decision is
>now FINANCIAL and has
>nothing to do with "desire".

I believe in a "do what it takes" ethic. If you're just sitting home collecting a check and not doing anything else then (sorry if this sounds harsh) but you are a leech. Go to school, help in your community, SOMETHING.

>Realize that with a new job
>comes new expenses like travel,
>food and clothing.

..and trying to stay on whatever assistance can actually cost you a lot more (in my opinion). there is a difference between assistance as a compliment to what you already make and as a replacement. believe me. i've lived it. i know it's hard for many to live without this help. but what's the alternative, give up? i see folks everyday selling oranges and flowers on the street. I watch groups of guys get up at dawn to stnd at home depot to offer their services to folk rather than wait for someone to GIVE them something. you may think that's silly, but to me there is a certain dignity to earning what sustains you.

>Children also pay a part in
>the decision, but for our
>conversations purposes, we will not
>broach that subject.

that is another discussion. but I'd have to take the hardline there too. why have a kid that you can't support yourself (again gettting HELP is different than getting a full ride based upon your ability to breed)?

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html
-----------------------------
Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------

  

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k_orr
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80197 posts
Fri Aug-11-00 12:35 PM

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14. "RE: agree/disagree"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          


>yeah it does. if you wanna
>work you can get a
>job. if you wanna learn
>to read you can. desire
>IS the key.

so poor people just desire to be poor. Or they desire not to work for it? Or they desire not to study?

for many
>it's easier to not do
>that is TO DO (or
>at least try). Actually what
>I'M getting at is the
>way the "System" will trick
>some folks into believeing that
>you CAN"T do better and
>shouldn't try.

How does the system do this?

For many it
>IS easier to sit back
>and "get over" than it
>is to make an effort
>to sustain yourself.

For many? For most?

The tricky
>thing is that when you
>relay on ANYBODY to sustain
>you you're reliant upon that
>person and their whims.

like my Mom's right?
>> These people tend to
>>have limited or questionable educational
>>background (meaning social promotion).
>
>you gotta elaborate on this one...

I think he means that folks who come up in poor backgrounds go to bad schools, or they don't learn anything at school despite having a diploma.

I submit even if they were "A" students at good or bad schools, the diploma is worthless. (in terms of getting a ticket into the middle class)

>but at some
>point if you say "I'm
>not even going to TRY
>and get past that" or
>fuss about the fact that
>the hurdle exists, you're essentially
>pulling yourself out of the
>"race".

so they just give up on doing better?

the mentality I'm talking
>about is the one where
>you get so tired of
>fighting that you give up
>and either believe that there
>IS no way out, or
>convince yourself that no matter
>what you do you'll lose
>anyway. getting specifically to the
>jobs thing, i know PLENTY
>of folk who would rather
>sit and get a check
>than get a job (or
>two if that's what it
>takes). period.

What should we as a society do with those people?
Should we "encourage" them to get jobs?

>I believe in a "do what
>it takes" ethic. If you're
>just sitting home collecting a
>check and not doing anything
>else then (sorry if this
>sounds harsh) but you are
>a leech.

whoa, I thought you cats were liberals?

>Go to school,
>help in your community, SOMETHING.

Damn.

>..and trying to stay on whatever
>assistance can actually cost you
>a lot more (in my
>opinion). there is a difference
>between assistance as a compliment
>to what you already make
>and as a replacement. believe
>me. i've lived it. i
>know it's hard for many
>to live without this help.
>but what's the alternative, give
>up?

alternatives
Kick back. Watch TV. Don't vote, Don't get involved. don't raise your children. Smoke, Drink, catch the holy ghost.

>i see folks everyday
>selling oranges and flowers on
>the street. I watch groups
>of guys get up at
>dawn to stnd at home
>depot to offer their services
>to folk rather than wait
>for someone to GIVE them
>something. you may think that's
>silly, but to me there
>is a certain dignity to
>earning what sustains you.

Is it more dignified to ask for handout work, or just straightup hand outs?

>>Children also pay a part in
>>the decision, but for our
>>conversations purposes, we will not
>>broach that subject.
>
>that is another discussion. but I'd
>have to take the hardline
>there too. why have a
>kid that you can't support
>yourself (again gettting HELP is
>different than getting a full
>ride based upon your ability
>to breed)?

What if you aren't making the decision to have a kid. Maybe you decided to have sex, but your baby Mama decides to keep the kid. What do you do then? (thank God I don't have no personal experience on that one.)

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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BooDaah
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32690 posts
Fri Aug-11-00 01:14 PM

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19. "here we go..."
In response to Reply # 14


          

>so poor people just desire to
>be poor.

never said that. don't generalize/paraphrase or add.

>Or they desire not to work for
>it?

for what?

>Or they desire
>not to study?

some don't. and some also don't get whatever help they can to help them learn.
>for many

>How does the system do this?

a myriad of ways. poorer funding for schools in certain areas for example. i told the story here before of the situation at inglewood high up the street from me. the student there who had the ability to take certain honors classes couldn't because they were unavailable. as a result these student didn't have the opportunity to get the higher gade averages that success in these classes would bring. thus when colleges did comparisons of GPAs theirs were lower hence a rason to not give admission. no opportunity despite ability and desire. rather than just sit back and be miserble these students had the DESIRE to change this (even though they wouldn't benefit) and sued the school system. it would have been easy to sit and fuss, but instead they took a more proactive avenue to solve the problem.

>For many? For most?

I dunno. And it doesn't really matter anyway.

>like my Mom's right?

If you say so (althougth I don't knwo your mother)

>I think he means that folks
>who come up in poor
>backgrounds go to bad schools,
>or they don't learn anything
>at school despite having a
>diploma.

Well then this is beyond my scope. What I'M talking about is those who don't even try to get the maximum from the opportunity they do have. To simply say "My school sucks" and not try to learn whatever they are teaching is potentially dangerous (especially if you want to succeed in an are where ou'll need that knowledge).

>I submit even if they were
>"A" students at good or
>bad schools, the diploma is
>worthless. (in terms of getting
>a ticket into the middle
>class)

Not necessarily. I thnk a 4.0 from a bad school is a whole lot better than a 0.0 from none. But this also gets into a whole different area. We all know that one can get an "A" and not learn jack. What I'm saying is that folk need to participate in their own destiny to the point where no one can have an excuse to hold you back or down.

>so they just give up on
>doing better?

some do. they figure, it's gonna be bad no matter how hard I try so I'll just quit.

>What should we as a society
>do with those people?

I dunno. I try to be an example of one who could grow up in the same situation and who was able to overcome (to some extent) the limitations in my path. I never say it was easy for me (nor will it be for them), but I thnk it's wrth the effort. What they do with that is what they do.

>Should we "encourage" them to get
>jobs?

Sure. why not? couldn't hurt?

>whoa, I thought you cats were
>liberals?

i don't believe in such titles. i'm just me.

>Is it more dignified to ask
>for handout work, or just
>straightup hand outs?

I prefer to work for mine. That way I get what I'm owed. If you ask for a handout, they can say "no" and then what you gonna do? I thnk this system (for lack of a better term) is ALL jacked up. I DO believe that it's unfair. But I also don't think (and it's been proven) that nothing in life is free. There is ALWAYS a consequence to relying on someone. In some instances the price of reliance is that it makes you "soft", and in all instances it leaves you open for "the other shoe to drop".

>What if you aren't making the
>decision to have a kid.

You open your legs or you lie with someone, you gotta recognize that there might be consequences.

> Maybe you decided to
>have sex, but your baby
>Mama decides to keep the
>kid. What do you
>do then?

You get caught up. See the thing (to me) is that not sleeping with her/him would have saved you from this whole scenario. Point blank. If you wanna aviod the drama, then don't become a piece in the game.


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Wendell
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Fri Aug-11-00 12:36 PM

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16. "What you are doing"
In response to Reply # 7


          

is called projection, where you place your values and traits upon other people. Sorry brother, but that's judgemental and wrong. You can't do that. Your circumstances are unique to you and you only.

Also, I'm not sure you understanding my point, so I'll do the math for you.

Say a person receiving aid in Chicago as opposed to working with the following expenses. I'll give this person $6.00/hour (above min wage) with a 40 hour workweek which is also a strecth, because most low paying jobs are part-time. Even so, that's an annual salary of $12,480. You subtract the governments part, let's say approximately 27% (6.2% for SS, 1.45% for medicare, 15% federal tax, 4% state tax) and that's not including, if you are lucky, any medical expenses. That leaves them with approximately 760/month. A bus pass cost $75/month. You gotta eat, so lets say you spend $4/day @ 21 work days a month, thats $84 gone. We are now down to $601 per month for the rest of your living expenses and I haven't bought one stitch of clothing. Here is where you can school me, I don't know how the system works, but I THINK that once you take a job, you loose benefits (food stamps and housing assistance), so you have to be able to live off of that $601 for the rest of the month. This means rent and utitlities and food for the other parts of the month.

As opposed to getting assistance and getting a check for say $400/month. Once again, I have no idea how much a person recieves when on aid, so you can beat me down for my numbers, but I'm willing to bet that the person on aid has more disposible income than the working poor.

I not gonna get into the dignity issues with being the working poor and I will expound later on the education statement I made in the previous post.

I have to run.

Peace

Pseudonym-less Wendell

Peace

Wendell

  

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BooDaah
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Fri Aug-11-00 01:29 PM

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20. "here we go again..."
In response to Reply # 16


          

>is called projection, where you place
>your values and traits upon
>other people.

i'm doing neither. I'm calling it as I see it and discussing (this IS still a forumn for that right?). everyone is free to do whatever they like. i don't expect everyone/anyone to listen to my ramblings and apply them (or even pay attention). all i can do, is what i can to fix whatever i think is a problem. if you disagree that's YOUR deal.

>Sorry brother,
>but that's judgemental and wrong.

You're being judgemental by calling me judgemental. And you're also being judgemental by telling me my opinion is "wrong". wrong on whose basis? yours? who are you?

> You can't do that.

Sure I can. Watch me...

> Your circumstances are unique
>to you and you only.

My EXPERIENCES are unique to me only, my CIRCUMSTANCES are quite common.

>Also, I'm not sure you understanding
>my point, so I'll do
>the math for you.

I'll listen, but I really always hated math

>Say a person receiving aid in
>Chicago as opposed to working
>with the following expenses....

I read and didn't quite see your point. You made up a hypothetical situation without a complete set of facts. Gimme more. Frankly If you wanna make aa point just make it. If I'm wrong, I'll be glad to admit it. WHat we were discussing waas a "ghetto" mentality and whether or not it exists. I say it does, because I've seen it. I defined what I believe it to be and gave examples. If your point has to do with THAt then I'm lost like a mug.

>I not gonna get into the
>dignity issues with being the
>working poor

you probably shouldn't because this goes even more towards something that is a moral issue. and again our morals may not align. peas for one, green beans for the other.

>and I will
>expound later on the education
>statement I made in the
>previous post.

I await your reply...

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BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
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spirit
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Sun Aug-13-00 07:53 AM

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29. "RE: What you are doing"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

>A bus pass cost $75/month.

damn, where do YOU live? where i'm at, it's $2.20 to get you back and forth every day on the bus...that's roughly $44/mo. (since folks work weekdays, roughly 20 days/mo). They must be taxing the hell outta your folks wherever you live...

> Here
>is where you can school
>me, I don't know how
>the system works, but I
>THINK that once you take
>a job, you loose benefits
>(food stamps and housing assistance)

Wrong. Food stamp eligibility is based on income. If you're making beneath a certain amount, you're eligible, whether you have a job or not. "Housing assistance"? You mean Section 8? That's determined by income too, job or no job, you're eligible if you're broke enough.

>so you have to be
>able to live off of
>that $601 for the rest
>of the month. This
>means rent and utitlities and
>food for the other parts
>of the month.

That's why food stamps, Section 8, etc. are for. To help people survive, minimally.

>As opposed to getting assistance and
>getting a check for say
>$400/month.

The real Catch-22 is when you have children. A big problem is the cost of child care. Basically, a lot of people can't afford having someone watch their kids while they work. There are also some health care issues that I don't fully understand and can't speak on.

But these things have nothing to do with a "culture of poverty". They're just financial obstacles, not cultural obstacles.

"Culture of poverty" is the whole concept that scertain people adopt a culture of underachievement that keeps certain folks broke. Arguably this culture of underachievement goes back to the days when achievement meant you might get lenched and have your business burned to the ground (black wall street, rosewood, and countless other examples) or even all the way back to when you'd be killed if you tried to learn how to read and write. Hardly the type of things that prepare a people for success.

I have seen the underachievement thing happen...if that's what y'all mean by culture of poverty, hell yeah there are plenty of folks who don't give a shit about school, which is the main way to progress from working to middle class in this country.

Spread love,

Spirit
http://www.theamphibians.com

August is Top 10 Month...

The 10 Reasons why you should go to http://www.theamphibians.com

(1) the all-american jerk boy awards...guilliani is leading...
(2) for your convenience, we only do updates once every blue moon
(3) because i'll break your legs if you don't
(4) you need a reason to put off clipping your toenails for 7 more minutes
(5) the bizarre user names (mr. bungles, angry armenian, spottieottiedopalicious etc.)
(6) the good posts that get completely unrecognized
(7) the amazingly true story of me getting mugged, somewhere in there
(8) the goofy bios
(9) to figure out what the hell "fermented bells" are
(10) because you're tired of reading this long ass lists of reasons....just click it! http://www.theamphibians.com

9 out of 10 people with two arms find something interesting about http://www.theamphibians.com
This summer: new audio, same odd sense of humor. Don't get "left" out, mossie your two-armed self on over and check it out.

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

  

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Wendell
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Mon Aug-14-00 04:39 AM

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34. "First, I'll talk about education."
In response to Reply # 7


          

Me: These people tend to have limited or questionable educational background (meaning social promotion).

You: you gotta elaborate on this one...

My original quote was in reference to people that I know who live in housing projects. I hate when we use the blanket "these people" statements, like we aren't a part of the culture, creating a separatist view.

Back to my statement, limited education, meaning dropping out of high school, which makes you unemployable for any decent job. Questionable education meaning social promotion. Social promotion is what was done in the Chicago Public Schools (and many other inner city school programs) for years and years, meaning that no matter what you did in the class room, the school system moved you to the next grade. Kids were not encouraged to work hard because they knew the system was gonna promote them anyway. In some cases, the parents didn't even know the kid wasn't learning anything because the kid would bring home a passing grade, without the benefit learning anything. Therefore creating a group of people that have a high school diploma, but can't function at that intellectual capacity. Fundamental readig and arithmatic skills that are way below what is considered "normal" for a person of that age. Often, these kids couldn't even read, so you know the communicative skills had to suffer. Without decent communicative skills, you will never find employment. I can't stress that enough!

I hope that clarified that statement. I will be back when I get a moment to continue this conversation.

Peace

Pseudonym-less Wendell

Peace

Wendell

  

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BooDaah
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Mon Aug-14-00 05:04 AM

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37. "thank you for clarifying"
In response to Reply # 34


          

now i understand the "social promotion" comment. i'm aware of the phenomenon, just never heard it defined as such.

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BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
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Wendell
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Mon Aug-14-00 08:19 AM

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43. "I'm not getting any work done today"
In response to Reply # 7


          

cause I'm messing aroung with you guys. Alright Brother Boo, back to your "desire" statement and you projecting your traits and judgeing others.

You: yeah it does. if you wanna work you can get a job. if you wanna learn to read you can. desire IS the key.

This sounds like you are projecting your work ethic and determination to a group of people. Desire may be the key for YOU, but maybe not for others.

You: For many it IS easier to sit back and "get over" than it is to make an effort to sustain yourself.

Tenacity and Independance! a Boodaah trait

You: thing is that when you relay on ANYBODY to sustain you you're reliant upon that person and their whims.

Independance! a Boodaah trait

You: don't het me wrong, there are hurdles aplenty. but at some point if you say "I'm not even going to TRY and get past that" or fuss about the fact that the hurdle exists, you're essentially pulling yourself out of the "race".

I think you get where I'm going here.

You: I believe in a "do what it takes" ethic.

So, because that's what you believe in, we all should?

You: If you're just sitting home collecting a check and not doing anything else then (sorry if this sounds harsh) but you are a leech. Go to school, help in your community, SOMETHING.

Damn. That's a very judgemental statement.

We are totally off the subject now, but as you alluded to in another post, I do have a point that I'm trying to make here. Everything that we have alluded to in this thread, lazyness, independence, ambition (all the human traits) are common in all walks of society. My point is that poverty doesn't have a thing to do with the human side of this equation. I'm willing to bet that the percentages would say that there are as many lazy poor people as there are lazy rich people. The problem is that we concentrate on the impoverished people and say to them "why are you poor? Johnny made it out of the ghetto, why are you still there?" Without really looking at the total picture.

This is where it gets unfair. The other side of the equation is the system.

When the government decided to provide public schools, then they got into the business of educating the masses. Why did they decide to educate some of the population and exclude the rest? Is it the have nots fault that they got the short end of that decision. Why are we blaming the victims here?

When the government decided to provide housing, then they got into the business of providing shelter for the masses. Why did they decide to not maintain those properties and allow its own people to live in squalor? Once again we are saying to the have nots, its your fault you are there in the first place.

Time for business school to step in, remember Maslow's "hierarchy of needs"? Well, shelter is a fundamental need. If it is effected, you effect everything else in that persons life. In our society, education is a fundamental need. If you effect that, then the persons future is effected. Both of these fundemental needs are/were controlled by the government. Is it a coincedence that the people mostly effected by the government are the impoverished? The people who actually need the most help!?!

Also, it is no coincedence that PRIVATE companies are coming in and remaking both of these governmental institutions.

Blacks weren't even allowed to work in certain industries (anything financial, etc.) until two generations ago. Blatant racism gave us 150 yards to run in the 100 yard dash, yet we look at our own people and say: "What is your problem? RUN NIGGA!! I DID!!!" Well, everybodys not gonna have the drive to run that race. Everybody is not created equal. Period.

Of course there are lazy people who don't want to work, who live in poor neighborhoods. There are people who intentionally milk the system for everything its got. But as Spirit said, that is the small minority and we can never get absolute numbers when it comes to social behavioral patterns.

When you add both sides of this equation together, you get all types of mixed answers. An ambitous poor person, a lazy rich person and vice versa.

But what you don't get is a "culture of poverty".

Peace

Pseudonym-less Wendell

Peace

Wendell

  

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BooDaah
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Mon Aug-14-00 09:59 AM

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50. "your assumption seems to be"
In response to Reply # 43


          

that I'm addressing poor folk. i didn't mena to imply that only "poor" people can have the mentality about which i speak. the examples may have made it seem that way, but i know plenty of folks in all racial and socia econimic classifcation who fit the description i put forth.

on another note, perhaps this will make you happy. i'm judgemental. i'mma call it as i see it. you don't have to agree, like it, care or anything else. you're free to hold the same or differing opinions. the reason i'm discussing this is to create dialog. i don't think my solutions/viewpoints/comments are the necessarily the only one that is true, but at the same time the beliefs i hold, i hold for a reason. if that makes me an elitist/snob/judgemental in your eyes, then "whatevaman". show me where i'm wong and i'll admit it (again) with no problem, but to analyze (And then pass judgement on) rlly won't amount to much, because opinions are like a$$holes.

now back to your comments...

>This sounds like you are projecting
>your work ethic and determination
>to a group of people.
> Desire may be the
>key for YOU, but maybe
>not for others.

and where did i say (since by your own admission you're reading so closely) that whomever wasn't entitled to their opinion?

>Tenacity and Independance! a Boodaah
>trait

if you say so (cause i didn't). hmm, sounds like judgement to me.

>Independance! a Boodaah trait

you said that already.

>I think you get where I'm
>going here.

actually, no i don't. please say what you gotta say directly.

>So, because that's what you believe
>in, we all should?

READ CLOSELY: where did i say or imply this?

>Damn. That's a very judgemental
>statement.

fine. so be it. now that BooDaah has been determined to be judgemental, does this invalidate anything I've said?

> Everything that we have
>alluded to in this thread,
>lazyness, independence, ambition (all the
>human traits) are common in
>all walks of society.

right....

>My point is that poverty
>doesn't have a thing to
>do with the human side
>of this equation.

what equation exactly? and who are you to say what does and doesn't play a part? your rhetoric is making your point smudgy because i REALLY don't know what you're talking about now.

> I'm
>willing to bet that the
>percentages would say that there
>are as many lazy poor
>people as there are lazy
>rich people.

I don't doubt it, but i'm not a big fan of "percentages" (see other posts about how i feel that you can generate statistics to "prove" any point).

>The problem
>is that we concentrate on
>the impoverished people and say
>to them "why are you
>poor? Johnny made it
>out of the ghetto, why
>are you still there?"
>Without really looking at the
>total picture.

You're assuming if you think this is what I'm doing. I never implied that the desire to overcome is the be all end all trait. Again I'm mentioning it as a vital ingredient. I honestly don't believe success on any level occurs in a vaccuum. You gotta have a whole lot of factors on your side to excel at anything in this world. I'm just mentioning one. We've talked at length about others throughout this board and I wanted to address one we haven't. Personal responsibility. In my eyes, we can march, protest, discuss, plead, beg, borrow and steal as many CHANCES for an opportunity as we want collectively, but ultimately it is up to every individual to decide what they want and how they're gonna go about getting it. Judgemental? You can call me that if that's what you want, I've been called worse.

> The other side of
>the equation is the system.

IF you're addressing governmental, economical, gender, and educational issues you must have missed where I mentioned those.

>Why are we blaming the victims
>here?

Who is BLAMING anyone? Regardless of how you look at it, the situation is effed up right? IN the end who suffers if "johnny" don't go to school/get a job? the system? hell no. johnny and johnny's people. so johnny needs to get smart enough to take care of his own right? if johnny waits for his "40 acres" he's going to be waiting a long damn time.

>When the government decided to provide
>housing, then they got into
>the business of providing shelter
>for the masses. Why
>did they decide to not
>maintain those properties and allow
>its own people to live
>in squalor? Once again
>we are saying to the
>have nots, its your fault
>you are there in the
>first place.

you know what i'm saying? I'm saying that if you're there make the best of the situation. take care of the little you have and if you get the chance OVERCOME your situation because the very system that put you in that hole isn't going to pull you out. all i'm saying is that yo gotta try. all this other exposition is confusing me because it seems like you aren't paying attention to the point.

>Both of these fundemental needs are/were >controlled by the government.

Only to the extent that you allow them to be controlled. you're not seeing that. if your school is messed up then YOU gotta fill in the holes in your education (or you'r children's). If you live in a messed up neighborhood, do what you can to make it better or gett the hell out. if you don't like the rules the system sets up, you have to empower yourself with a means by which you can bend the existiing ones or just play a different game. it ain't easy, but it's possible (am i repeating myself?)

>Is it a coincedence that the people
>mostly effected by the government
>are the impoverished? The
>people who actually need the
>most help!?!

You're seeing my point. if you rely on the government to take care of you, you're at it's mercy. if you ask it to help you then you have to jump through whatever hoops it sets up. is that fair? maybe not, but it's reality. the longer you play by those rules, the more apt you are to become reliant upon that help (or think that it's "owed" to you). it's not cool to allow outside entities to control you. the "system" is set up to keep things just as they are. meaning if you're poor, then you'll STAY poor unless you do something to change it. Same thing with the effed up public school system, same with the effed up job market.

>Also, it is no coincedence that
>PRIVATE companies are coming in
>and remaking both of these
>governmental institutions.

Again though, this is trading one slavemaster for another. An even worse one actually, because you actually have a say who is in government, in private insitutions you're a$$ed out.

going to your race analogy. you're damn right we start off behind or at a disadvantage. but what option do you have other than to TRY to win? if you don't run at all, how can you even HOPE to win?

> An ambitous poor person,
>a lazy rich person and
>vice versa.

a lazy rich person has an advantage (as we both agree). but if he runs a "lazy" race he'll be caught and surpassed by someone from behind if that person is running hard enough. the field isn't level, but so what? again, what choice do you have but to do the best your can?

>But what you don't get is
>a "culture of poverty".

You started by addressing me, now you're talking about s differnt subject that what I was addressing. To be honest, I'm not sure what "culture of poverty" is defined as. I'm addressing personal responsibility in the face or or leading to the generation of a mentality.

but whatever, i'm beginning to tire of this circular debate.

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
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-----------------------------
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janey
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Mon Aug-14-00 10:28 AM

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57. "$0.02"
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

  

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janey
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Mon Aug-14-00 10:32 AM

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"RE: $0.02"


  

          

Whoops. My excitable fingers jumped the gun there.

So... What's so bad about judgment?

If we didn't have the ability to judge, discern, make distinctions, we:
-- wouldn't be able to know when a relationship was good or when it was harming us
-- wouldn't be able to tell whether the milk had gone sour.
-- wouldn't be able to distinguish and cull out from our conscious awareness the sensory input that is unnecessary.

If we receive all information with equal attention, we will become unable to function. It is a necessary process of existence that we discard some information in favor of other information.

So, naturally "judgmental" at a pre-conscious level.

When does this become unskillful?

I'm just always a little startled at the way the word "judgment" gets used. It seems to me to be important and necessary. What do we really mean when we condemn judgment?


Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

  

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Shaun_G
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Fri Aug-11-00 11:43 AM

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8. "RE: Theres a couple of way at"
In response to Reply # 6


          

That's why I think the failure of public education is the biggest problem within this 'culture of poverty'.

If people had a better education they would have a chance to see that life is more than the X-block radius of their neighborhood.

Shaun G.

  

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k_orr
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Fri Aug-11-00 12:36 PM

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15. "RE: Theres a couple of way at"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

>That's why I think the failure
>of public education is the
>biggest problem within this 'culture
>of poverty'.
>
>If people had a better education
>they would have a chance
>to see that life is
>more than the X-block radius
>of their neighborhood.

So the local, state, and federal government are responsible for instilling students to look past their neighborhoods?

k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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Shaun_G
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Sat Aug-12-00 04:05 AM

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26. "RE: Theres a couple of way at"
In response to Reply # 15


          

It depends on what you mean by "responsible". I'm just saying that in a school environment that actually works you can get exposed to different things through subjects such as English, Social Studies, and music/art classes (although the last one gets cut for funding on the regular).

Schools aren't totally responsible for it but they sure can help more than they are currently.

Can you explain your point more? I may not be getting it.

Shaun G.

  

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k_orr
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Mon Aug-14-00 06:45 AM

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40. "Schools are in no way responsible"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          


For the type of education you are talking about.

Ideally the parents should be, but ultimately it falls upon the student.

In the best case scenario's, ie white suburb public schools, children are exposed to a many different learning opportunities.

In your typical rural school, who often have it much worse in terms of resources than inner city schools, they don't have that option. If they have to choose between art and football, they are going with football.

>Can you explain your point more?

Basically the welfare mentality is a non-issue. In essence it blames the victim for their state. No amount of hustle, thriftiness, desire is going to change Nickerson Gardens into Brentwood. Of course there is some element of personal choice that affect the lives of individuals, but those same choices are made by folks in a higher tax bracket but don't have the same devastating effects. It is very easy to want to change the values of poor people (who have the same values of people of other classes) to fix the problem. But when it comes to real long term solutions for resource poor regions, it's not the victims of poverty who can solve the problem.

The people in the inner-city who lived in working blue collar neighborhoods were hurt more by the movement out of big business than any CIA sponsored crack operation. Crack has had a huge effect on black neighborhoods. Almost the same way Meth is having an impact on white rural areas.

The macro elements of American society are more damaging to poor communities.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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Shaun_G
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Mon Aug-14-00 07:01 AM

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41. "RE: Schools are in no way responsible"
In response to Reply # 40


          

>
>For the type of education you
>are talking about.

Maybe I'm not explaining myself correctly, but I don't see what was so special about what I was talking about. To put it simply, inner city and rural public schools should have the same resources and educational opportunities that suburban schools do. Classes in English, Social Studies, Science and the arts (which I did mention ed in my previous post as being cut on the regular) when taught correctly can expose students to lives and ways of thinking different from the ones they're living in.


>In your typical rural school, who
>often have it much worse
>in terms of resources than
>inner city schools, they don't
>have that option. If
>they have to choose between
>art and football, they are
>going with football.
>

Well that's the problem I've always had with the public school system, unequal funding.


>Basically the welfare mentality is a
>non-issue. In essence it
>blames the victim for their
>state. No amount of
>hustle, thriftiness, desire is going
>to change Nickerson Gardens into
>Brentwood. Of course there
>is some element of personal
>choice that affect the lives
>of individuals, but those same
>choices are made by folks
>in a higher tax bracket
>but don't have the same
>devastating effects. It is
>very easy to want to
>change the values of poor
>people (who have the same
>values of people of other
>classes) to fix the problem.
> But when it comes
>to real long term solutions
>for resource poor regions, it's
>not the victims of poverty
>who can solve the problem.
>

I agree with this, I just think that some (notice I said some) people can improve their situations themselves to a degree. Of course
there's is no switch that someone can pull that makes poor people suddenly middle class without
help from outside sources.

>
>The people in the inner-city who
>lived in working blue collar
>neighborhoods were hurt more by
>the movement out of big
>business than any CIA sponsored
>crack operation. Crack has had
>a huge effect on black
>neighborhoods. Almost the same
>way Meth is having an
>impact on white rural areas.
>
I agree 100%, especially since I came from one of those areas (East Orange, NJ).

>The macro elements of American society
>are more damaging to poor
>communities.

You're right, but unfortunately I don't have any faith in the macro elements of American society to fix the problems. If we don't figure out a way to fix them ourselves, through creating our own system or manipulating the current one to our advantage, things aren't going to change.

Shaun G.

  

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WISDOMQUEST88

Fri Aug-11-00 11:43 AM

  
9. "RE: There's a couple of ways"
In response to Reply # 6


          

I dont know. To a certain extent that may be true, but you have to look at the whole picture. Judging by my environment alone, I would have to object to some of what you're saying. Let's start with EDU. Highschool is an equal opportunity, right? Not every job requires special training or a college degree. True you may have to sacrifice. If anyone knows about sacrifices it's me. It's all about budgeting. The problem most people have (including me sometimes) is that we tend to live beyond our means. We dont know how to prioritize. How do you think the rich get richer. Some of the richest people in the world are cheaper than an old rug. Who said you have to have a car. Bus passes and subway passes will suffice. So transportation is really not an issue. What it all boils down to is hard work, and sometimes we are afraid of that. We tend to want to take the easy route, which tends to lead to nowhere but prison (physically & mentally) or a casket. If you dont agree with what I'm saying how else could you explain how foreigners could come to the U.S dirt poor with nothing but the clothes on their backs, and in 1 to 2 years time have their own business up and running- where? Right smack in the middle of black neighborhoods. Now you tell me why we cant do the same. And please just dont say race. Where that might be a factor, it's not the sum.

  

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k_orr
Charter member
80197 posts
Fri Aug-11-00 12:20 PM

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10. "The real problem with poor people is..."
In response to Reply # 9


  

          


>True you may have to
>sacrifice.

They don't sacrifice?

If anyone knows about
>sacrifices it's me. It's all
>about budgeting. The problem most
>people have (including me sometimes)
>is that we tend to
>live beyond our means.

So people stay poor, engage in "self-destructive" behavior because they live beyond their means?

We
>dont know how to prioritize.

Poor folks don't know how to prioritize?

>What
>it all boils down to
>is hard work, and sometimes
>we are afraid of that.

That's it. Poor people stay poor because they are afraid of hard work.

>. If you
>dont agree with what I'm
>saying how else could you
>explain how foreigners could come
>to the U.S dirt poor
>with nothing but the clothes
>on their backs, and in
>1 to 2 years time
>have their own business up
>and running- where?

We should follow the foreign model then?

I thought y'all were progressives?

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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WISDOMQUEST88

Fri Aug-11-00 01:00 PM

  
18. "RE: The real problem with poor people is..."
In response to Reply # 10


          

I'm not saying that poor people do not make sacrifices. Quote me correctly now. I said, you (in general) have to make sacrifices. And most people (generally speaking) tend to live beyond their means. We dont know how to prioritize. I was saying this in regards to a previous post(There's a couple of ways at..). So you cant just take a statement and chop it up without looking at it as a whole. Naturally not EVERYONE falls into this category, just most. Again, It all boils down to hard work, and somtimes we ARE afraid of that. EX: capitalizing on your talents and special skills, be it washing cars, running deliveries, any kind of hustling you might have to do that wont allow you to become confined mentally or physically. It's time we start doing for ourselves, and stop depending on other people to open doors. Knock down a few if you have to. If it means following the so-called "foreign model", then yes, by all means, if it gets you headed in the right direction. That's what progression is all about, elevating to the next level, a level that will ultimately lead you to success.

  

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k_orr
Charter member
80197 posts
Mon Aug-14-00 06:16 AM

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39. "RE: The real problem with poor people is..."
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

>I'm not saying that poor people
>do not make sacrifices. Quote
>me correctly now. I said,
>you (in general) have to
>make sacrifices.

So can I then assume that some people remain poor because they don't make sacrifices.

And most people
>(generally speaking) tend to live
>beyond their means. We dont
>know how to prioritize.

Let me ask the question in a different manner.
In your opinion, is lack of prioritization of resources an important issue among poor people?

A corollary, if we could tweak the value system of poor people, could we help them not be so resource-poor.

>Again, It all
>boils down to hard work,
>and somtimes we ARE afraid
>of that.

I will submit that no amount of "hard work" can help poor people.

>It's time we start doing
>for ourselves, and stop depending
>on other people to open
>doors.

I agree with that.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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WISDOMQUEST88

Mon Aug-14-00 06:34 PM

  
65. "Work With Me Here"
In response to Reply # 39


          

I must say, you certainly know how to start a debate. But before I answer your question, let me first say this. When this thread began, I gave my definition to what I believed it meant when using the term "a culture of poverty". This is what I was taught, and therefore I ran with it. Somewhere down the line, it changed into a "all poor people" kind of topic. Again let me say, my understanding of what it is meant to live in a "culture of poverty", stressing the word "culture", is when a person grows up poor, and ends up living their life only knowing this. In the process of becoming an adult, they lacked the drive (the desire) to overcome their situation. Instead, they feel (consciously and/or subconsciously) perfectly content with their environment, and their acceptance of welfare, to the point where they remain and raise children, and unfortunately, pass on this way of thinking to their kids, which will cause an continuos cycle until someone steps up to break it. Now in your quote, the one that started the debate, I did not see anything in regards to the actual phrase "a culture of poverty". I only saw this in your question, which is what I was responding to. Naturally, people are poor for all different reasons. But when I interjected the response that we lacked prioritization, I said this in dealing what I believe to be a "culture of poverty". For example, and we've all seen this in one form or another, I cant for the love of me understand how a person can live in the projects but have enough money to buy a Caddy and have it fully loaded, rims and all. That right there is what I mean by a lack of priorities. Another example: I know a guy on disability. A 27 yr old able bodied adult. Nothing is wrong with him physically, mentally might be another issue judging by his actions and what he told me. He lives in the projects. He collects a monthly disability check, and sells drugs (heroine). I asked him, "Why don't you get a job?" Obviously he looked healthy enough to work. He responded, and I quote, "If I got a job they would cut my disablity." The inside of his home is decked. Im talking plush carpet, big screen T.V., and Modern-deco furniture. Things you wouldn't expect to find in someones home who's living in the projects. This, if anything, is a prime example of a "culture of poverty". He was raised in the projects. He's still living in the projects with moms- can't risk getting his own place and letting the government find out he has money, and he's raising his daughter in the projects. He's not married by the way, just to bring the picture full circle. There you have it. Three generations, money being exchanged, yet everyone's still living in the projects, and no one is bettering themselves(mentally) in the process. This, my dear, is what I mean by a lack of priorities, which can start/cause a "culture of poverty". Lastly, please correct me if I am wrong, but did I understand you correctly when you said that no amount of hard work can help poor people. If this is what I thought you said, (and I could be wrong, please let me know) it's that same thought process that keeps poor people poor. And I'm not just talking financially.

  

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k_orr
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Tue Aug-15-00 04:21 AM

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66. "RE: Work With Me Here"
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

>I must say, you certainly know
>how to start a debate.

I'm surprised actually that this one took off. I guess everyone here has a feeling about poor people.

>But before I answer your
>question, let me first say
>this. When this thread began,
>I gave my definition to
>what I believed it meant
>when using the term "a
>culture of poverty". This is
>what I was taught, and
>therefore I ran with it.

Define it.

My definition.

The culture of poverty is a way of life that keeps its people and their children poor. Because they have a different value structure, they are unable to become financially independent of the government.

I do not believe that this culture exists. I believe that the vast majority of poor people will remain poor independent of individual actions. This is by virtue of our economy, not through any moral/social/cultural failings of poor people. The drug use, the crime, the unwed pregnancies, using high interest credit, exarcerbate the problem but are not causes in and of itself. You take your typical tenement in the projects. Maybe 8 of the 10 people who might liver there fill some type of stereotype, but those last 2 people are still poor also. The reality of poor people is that most of them are upstanding citizens, who play by the rules, and work hard, and have the exact same value system that the rest of America has. But they can't seem to move on.

>Somewhere down the line, it
>changed into a "all poor
>people" kind of topic. Again
>let me say, my understanding
>of what it is meant
>to live in a "culture
>of poverty", stressing the word
>"culture", is when a person
>grows up poor, and ends
>up living their life only
>knowing this.

Culture is a way of life. But I have a hard time believing that poor people believe that their life is all that they know. Maybe in India, but on in the US. Even in the most backwoods areas, they know of a different life.

But perhaps we are talking past each other. When you say poverty of culture maybe you are thinking of the worst case scenario types. I'm thinking of women that used to go to my grandmother's church. Even in the worst situations with the most surreal characters, there are lots of ordinary regular people who do not have some other extenuating circumstance who are poverty stricken. Many of the responders to the thread seem to be thinking about able bodied men who don't do anything, or unwed mothers. I'm thinking about families with mom and dad and 2 kids, all with jobs, who can not make it out, despite their thriftiness and hustle.

In the process
>of becoming an adult, they
>lacked the drive (the desire)
>to overcome their situation.

I do not believe that is true at all. But worse yet, I think folks focus on the youth. How come we don't address middle aged people that live in bad conditions?

>Instead,
>they feel (consciously and/or subconsciously)
>perfectly content with their environment,
>and their acceptance of welfare,
>to the point where they
>remain and raise children, and
>unfortunately, pass on this way
>of thinking to their kids,
>which will cause an continuos
>cycle until someone steps up
>to break it.

Even if that is the case, which I'm sure we all have some anecdotes about, is that really the reason that they remain poor. Replace welfare with husband who is a college graduate and you have what I saw at my university, when buffy and jessica were pursuing their M-R-S degree.

Now in
>your quote, the one that
>started the debate, I did
>not see anything in regards
>to the actual phrase "a
>culture of poverty". I only
>saw this in your question,
>which is what I was
>responding to. Naturally, people are
>poor for all different reasons.

>But when I interjected the
>response that we lacked prioritization,
>I said this in dealing
>what I believe to be
>a "culture of poverty".

I heard you the first time, i'm just asking more questions. I have not misunderstood you at all. I know what you are saying cause I've heard it before. What I am trying to do is open up your view of poor people. After you look at people in neighborhoods that have prioritized, that have stopped renting to own, that have stopped going to convenience stores, that have sat with their children during study time, and they still are poor despite being model citizens, you have to ask yourself is this culture of poverty exists and does it really effect the end result.

If I go out start hitting off women left and right with seeds, sell drugs, go to jail, et cetera, will the church choir leader who lives in my same building have a better chance at the house in the burbs with the 2 cars. Most people here believe yes, that guy will. After having been to inner city hoods and rural areas, I am saying no. The cat who does bad might end up in jail, but if he stays free he is not doing any better or worse than the cat who lived by book.

> For
>example, and we've all seen
>this in one form or
>another, I cant for the
>love of me understand how
>a person can live in
>the projects but have enough
>money to buy a Caddy
>and have it fully loaded,
>rims and all. That right
>there is what I mean
>by a lack of priorities.

I've met those cats, they used to come up to my radio show. More often than not, they bought an 84 Sedan Deville for about 1500, and they had a homeboy candy paint it. The wheels tend to be used. The folks who really do it right, tend to be doing something else that can pay for it, whether it be legal or illegal. I've met a # of black professionals who could drop some serious change on a ride, as well as members of the recreational pharmaceutical conglomerates that had that type of money. But your average bro-shaq in the hood is not buying stuff off the showroom floor.

>Another example: I know a
>guy on disability. A 27
>yr old able bodied adult.
>Nothing is wrong with him
>physically, mentally might be another
>issue judging by his actions
>and what he told me.
>He lives in the projects.
>He collects a monthly disability
>check, and sells drugs (heroine).
>I asked him, "Why don't
>you get a job?" Obviously
>he looked healthy enough to
>work. He responded, and I
>quote, "If I got a
>job they would cut my
>disablity." The inside of his
>home is decked. Im
>talking plush carpet, big screen
>T.V., and Modern-deco furniture. Things
>you wouldn't expect to find
>in someones home who's living
>in the projects.

You would be surprised.

This, if
>anything, is a prime example
>of a "culture of poverty".
>He was raised in the
>projects. He's still living in
>the projects with moms- can't
>risk getting his own place
>and letting the government find
>out he has money, and
>he's raising his daughter in
>the projects. He's not married
>by the way, just to
>bring the picture full circle.
>There you have it. Three
>generations, money being exchanged, yet
>everyone's still living in the
>projects, and no one is
>bettering themselves(mentally) in the process.

Is he the rule to those projects, or the exception?

>This, my dear, is what
>I mean by a lack
>of priorities, which can start/cause
>a "culture of poverty". Lastly,
>please correct me if I
>am wrong, but did I
>understand you correctly when you
> said that no amount
>of hard work can help
>poor people. If this is
>what I thought you said,
>(and I could be wrong,
>please let me know) it's
>that same thought process that
>keeps poor people poor. And
>I'm not just talking financially.

Poor people, the working poor, work 60-80 hours to tread water. On top of the long hours, they have to deal with other things that folks in the burbs don't deal with. Without the right skill set and work opportunities the level of effort is unimportant. The worst case scenarios, the drug dealers, pimps, prostitutes, welfare queens, do not make up the majority of poor people.

peace
k. orr


http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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WISDOMQUEST88

Tue Aug-15-00 11:13 AM

  
67. "RE: Work With Me Here"
In response to Reply # 66


          

Okay. So you do not believe that the culture exist, and you also believe that the vast majority of poor people "will remain poor independent of individual actions". Alright, if that is your take on things, in your opinion answer me this. First allow me to say that when I say a culture of poverty, I am not speaking in terms of worst case scenarios. I'm simply using examples of what I come across in my daily dealings with people within my city and neighborhoods. Let's say we are talking about "families with a mom and dad and 2 kids, all with jobs, who can not make it out, despite their thriftiness and hustle". In relation to the parents, I can see the situation, but as the children grow older, isn't it the parents responsibility to instill in them that there's so much more to life, and with perseverance and drive they CAN have a better life? If there is no one there saying you dont have to live your life this way, go out and get an education and make something of yourself, then yes, they are doomed to repeat the cycle of substandard living. As far as our focus on the youth, I believe that we tend to have this "Let's focus on our future" mind set. In other words "We can't change the old, Let's work on the new" way of thinking. Believe me when I tell you, my view of the poor is wide open. I would be the first to tell you that I know this "culture of poverty" does not apply to every poor individual. But what do you say to a person who says "I was born in the ghetto, I was raised in the ghetto, and I'm gonna die in the ghetto"? If they pass this way of thinking on to their children, who may eventually pass it on to theirs, is that not a "culture" of poverty? It's a learned behaviour passed from parent to child. Is that not a culture. He's not being exposed to anything but substandard living. Is that not poverty? You may say I'm pulling nothing but worst case senarios out of my hat, but this is a common feeling amongst many youths who happen to live in low imcome communities. It's not like a 1 out of 200 kind of statistic. And I must stress this again, If you have enough money ($1500 according to you) to buy a caddy and hook it up (where I'm from, rims are not cheap,and I don't know too many brothers who would put cheap rims,or systems in their cars), then you have no business living in the projects. Open a bank account, ( in many cases it's free),save your money, and get the hell out. -Wisdom

  

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Shaun_G
Charter member
3009 posts
Sat Aug-12-00 04:15 AM

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27. "RE: The real problem with poor people is..."
In response to Reply # 10


          

I think the problem this discussion is turning into is 'all' vs 'some'.

Are all poor people lazy? Of course not.
Are some poor people lazy? I would say yes (although I not even going to attempt giving a percentage).

Can all poor people get jobs? (No, studies on the current welfare state is proving that)
Are some poor people not working out of choice? Yeah, I think some are.

Can all of poor people's problems be blamed on racism? A huge percentage can easily be but not
100%.

Until, we agree on this (maybe we can't) this discussion might not get anywhere.

Shaun G.
Shaun G.

  

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WISDOMQUEST88

Sat Aug-12-00 11:17 AM

  
28. "Going Back To the Basics"
In response to Reply # 27


          

In regards to the point that you're trying to make, naturally we are all not going to see completely eye to eye on this subject or any other for that matter. We are all separate entities, with our own personal experiences and ways of looking at things. But please dont feel that this isn't going anywhere. Think of the hundreds of people alone who may read these posts but decide for whatever reason not to leave a message. Whenever you put something out on the table like this, whoever hears it (or reads it in this case) is touched one way or another, and might find interest in looking further into the problem. Now, one point I would like to stress again: ANYONE, POOR OR RICH CAN GET/FIND A JOB. I dont care if it flipping burgers at a fast food joint for 40 plus hours a week. So that's not an excuse. That, as a matter of fact, is a copout. Again it boils down to priorities. Are you going to sit there and go hungry because you feel the right job hasn't come along, or are you going to work at Burger King, while you work on your skills and prepare yourself for that higher paying job you want. Lastly, to touch on racism. We black folks, who dont do our research, tend to think that black people are the less fortunate (poorer people, financially) in this country. This is not true. We make up what 12% or less of the U.S. population?, yet the poverty level in this country is higher. Truth be told, there are more poor white whites in this country than there are blacks. There are more white people living off of the welfare system than there are blacks. And I'd be damned if everytime I dont roll up in a Poppye's or Churches there ain't nothing but black folks working behind the counter(and as managers too)- I just threw that last sentence in there for comic relief, some people are just so serious! So, true this a capitalistic country, and racism does exist, but let's stop using that as an excuse and get down to the real issue of it all, SELF-RELIANCE. Good day people.
-Wisdom

  

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k_orr
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80197 posts
Mon Aug-14-00 08:30 AM

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44. "RE: The real problem with poor people is..."
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

>I think the problem this discussion
>is turning into is 'all'
>vs 'some'.

I'm trying to turn into an all conversation. How do we address the problems of all poor people, but in particular those folks whom we might disapprove of.

>Can all poor people get jobs?
>(No, studies on the current
>welfare state is proving that)

They can all get jobs, barring disability. But jobs alone might not pay for their lifestyles. Jobs often have hidden costs. I thought after I started working full time I would be getting paid like a mug. Well I'm working fulltime and I have to eat lunch with my co-workers, buy business clothes, dry clean. There are all sorts of incidentals to having a professional job.

And professional jobs are becoming harder to get, and good paying blue collar jobs are even more difficult to get.

>Are some poor people not working
>out of choice? Yeah, I
>think some are.

>Can all of poor people's problems
>be blamed on racism? A
>huge percentage can easily be
>but not
>100%.

No doubt. Although is wanting to live among your own racism?

Is there a difference between white professionals moving to the suburbs and black students creating all african american dorms?

>Until, we agree on this (maybe
>we can't) this discussion might
>not get anywhere.

I think we agree on some points, but we might just be talking past each other on others.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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Shaun_G
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Mon Aug-14-00 09:12 AM

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47. "RE: The real problem with poor people is..."
In response to Reply # 44


          


>
>>Can all poor people get jobs?
>>(No, studies on the current
>>welfare state is proving that)
>
>They can all get jobs, barring
>disability. But jobs alone
>might not pay for their
>lifestyles.

I read somewhere that although the welfare rolls have dropped considerably in most cases, there are still a good number of people who are so unprepared (communication skills, getting to work on time consistently, etc) that even if they do get jobs, they don't keep them long. This is why people are complaining that the current war on welfare kicks people off, but doesn't train them enough to justify the kicking.

>
>And professional jobs are becoming harder
>to get, and good paying
>blue collar jobs are even
>more difficult to get.
>

To me this is the greatest problem. Back in the day you could only have a high school diploma and still could find a job that had a livable (sp?) wage. All those jobs are overseas now since corporations can get away with paying cheaper wages than the US minimum wage.

>
>No doubt. Although is wanting
>to live among your own
>racism?
>

It is if a few people not among your own move in causing you to run for the hills, taking all your businesses and tax revenue with you.

>Is there a difference between white
>professionals moving to the suburbs
>and black students creating all
>african american dorms?
>

No, because in both cases one of the root causes is that some Whites can't deal with living around Blacks.

Shaun G.

  

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k_orr
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80197 posts
Fri Aug-11-00 12:27 PM

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13. "Do you believe that people are"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          


>In these cases, it actually
>cost more for them to
>take a job, than to
>stay home and collect a
>check. The decision is
>now FINANCIAL and has
>nothing to do with "desire".

- rational actors
- act in their own self interest

You are using a cost-benefit analysis way to explain why folks don't go to work. When I was working for a non-profit this idea never seemed to mirror reality.

k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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Wendell
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Mon Aug-14-00 08:56 AM

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46. "RE: Do you believe that people are"
In response to Reply # 13


          


>- rational actors
>- act in their own self
>interest
>
>You are using a cost-benefit analysis
>way to explain why folks
>don't go to work.
>When I was working for
>a non-profit this idea never
>seemed to mirror reality.

I was speaking from experience in my example. I know more than one person who independantly mentioned this to me during conversation.

Peace

Pseudonym-less Wendell


Peace

Wendell

  

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k_orr
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Mon Aug-14-00 11:57 AM

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64. "RE: Do you believe that people are"
In response to Reply # 46


  

          


>I was speaking from experience in
>my example. I know
>more than one person who
>independantly mentioned this to me
>during conversation.
>
>Peace

So our experiences differ. I was a roving counselor for 6 months going btw inner cities and rural towns. I strictly dealt with teenage girls who met the poverty guidelines.

Why they didn't succeed couldn't be blamed on one specific thing, but they were all interested in doing better. But having interest, and getting their hustle on would not be enough for them to leave their neighborhoods. I had individual solutions for all of them, but they needed neighborhood, or at least household solutions. They needed computer skills, so did Mom, their baby's daddy, their cousins, their aunt's, their uncles. Why? Cause my black and brown sistas had really strong family bonds. So even when they had skills and went back home the personal bonds with fam couldn't keep them out. They couldn't move to the big city and find a job.


But i'm trying to forget the drama and concentrate on solutions.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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k_orr
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Fri Aug-11-00 12:22 PM

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11. "RE: Don't know if it's the same thing..."
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

>But I DO believe in a
>"Welfare mentality". This is when
>a person becomes reliant upon
>the government and its programs
>for sustainance to the detriment
>of their desire to support
>themselves.

How does this happen? Most of the welfare studies show that the majority of folks who go on welfare get off within 2 years. But a certain subset of that percentage can't get off of welfare at all.

Additionally, it can result
>in an individual not thinking/believeing
>they can arise beyond the
>life of one who must
>depend on outside support.

So this mentality is the individual's fault?

k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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BooDaah
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Fri Aug-11-00 01:37 PM

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21. "well..."
In response to Reply # 11


          

>How does this happen?

a myriad of ways. follow the thread.

>Most of the welfare studies show
>that the majority of folks
>who go on welfare get
>off within 2 years.

those are the ones who want to and find a means to do so (the "lucky ones").

>But a certain subset of
>that percentage can't get off
>of welfare at all.

All I'm saying is that SOME of this group doesn't want to and don't. Period.

>So this mentality is the individual's
>fault?

If you have an opportunity and you choose not to take it, then yes(in my opinion). Otherwise, there is a whole plethora of things that could be going on.

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
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spirit
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Sun Aug-13-00 08:09 AM

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31. "the majority of welfare folks are lucky?"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

>>Most of the welfare studies show
>>that the majority of folks
>>who go on welfare get
>>off within 2 years.
>
>those are the ones who want
>to and find a means
>to do so (the "lucky
>ones").

the majority of welfare recipients get off welfare in 2 years. you call these "the lucky ones" as if they're the exception to the rule. THEY ARE THE RULE. the people who stay on MORE than 2 years are the EXCEPTION. get it?

>>But a certain subset of
>>that percentage can't get off
>>of welfare at all.
>
>All I'm saying is that SOME
>of this group doesn't want
>to and don't. Period.

What you're basically saying is an extremely small percentage of people on welfare prefer receiving assistance to working. Since this is a small percentage, they're the exception to the rule, and shouldn't be the focus of the discussion. If only a minority of people on welfare are affected by this "culture of poverty" that makes them seek lifetime benefits, one cannot say "a culture of poverty is what determines who is on welfare" (the initial presumption which K_Orr asked us to agree or disagree with). The experiences of a minority cannot be extrapolated to represent the experiences of the whole. That'd be like saying all black folks are criminals based on the activities of black criminals.

>>So this mentality is the individual's
>>fault?
>
>If you have an opportunity and
>you choose not to take
>it, then yes(in my opinion).

What opportunity? You act like there's gold in the streets of the hood. There's enough fault to go around. Redlining, poorly funded schools, the practice of overpricing goods and services in poor neighborhoods, the lack of a transportation infrastructure from poor neighborhoods to where jobs are (example: check out a DC metro map and peep how few stops are in predominantly black poor Southeast DC versus the comparatively more affluent northwest DC). I don't know, there's a helluva lot of obstacles. That means there's fault to go around...

Spread love,

Spirit
http://www.theamphibians.com

August is Top 10 Month...

The 10 Reasons why you should go to http://www.theamphibians.com

(1) the all-american jerk boy awards...guilliani is leading...
(2) for your convenience, we only do updates once every blue moon
(3) because i'll break your legs if you don't
(4) you need a reason to put off clipping your toenails for 7 more minutes
(5) the bizarre user names (mr. bungles, angry armenian, spottieottiedopalicious etc.)
(6) the good posts that get completely unrecognized
(7) the amazingly true story of me getting mugged, somewhere in there
(8) the goofy bios
(9) to figure out what the hell "fermented bells" are
(10) because you're tired of reading this long ass lists of reasons....just click it! http://www.theamphibians.com

9 out of 10 people with two arms find something interesting about http://www.theamphibians.com
This summer: new audio, same odd sense of humor. Don't get "left" out, mossie your two-armed self on over and check it out.

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

  

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BooDaah
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Mon Aug-14-00 03:14 AM

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32. "hello spirit"
In response to Reply # 31


          

>you call these "the lucky
>ones" as if they're the
>exception to the rule.

i call these the lucky ones because that is what i consider them. if you can find a way to get off and do, then to me you're lucky in comparison to those who can't/don't.

>...get it?

i'm not sure what I'm supposed to be "getting". you're introducing a bit of a red herring here, because your commentary doesn't go to what I was discussing (that being the existance of a ghetto/welfare mentality). i appreciate the facts you've injected, but don't exactly see how they're relevant. feel free to explain.

>What you're basically saying is an
>extremely small percentage of people
>on welfare prefer receiving assistance
>to working.

i never said extremely small or otherwise (folks here sure love to inject words don't they? ).
again we were discussing existance. if i define the term and give at least one example, then to me i have shown the existance. whether there are many or few doesn't really matter.

>Since this is
>a small percentage, they're the
>exception to the rule, and
>shouldn't be the focus of
>the discussion.

..see above comment. i would like to note that i'm a bit confused as to whether you're recsponding/reacting to the train of thought I kinda spun off the original post, if you're taking it back, or starting a new subtopic. As I stated in my first response, I'm not sure if what I've injected is ideolgically the same as the quoted blurb.

>...(the initial presumption
>which K_Orr asked us to
>agree or disagree with).

i wasn't really speaking to this. in fact prior to the injection of a subtopic, nobody really was. If you'd like to take it back to the original idea (which I would like to leearn more about), then go ahead. just please remember that it's not my commentary you're responding to.

>What opportunity? You act like there's
>gold in the streets of
>the hood.

i'm not (at least i missed it if i did). I'm merely saying that there ARE opportunities hidden amongst the crap. it's up to the individual to maximize those opportunities. i agree with all the examples you gave, but so what? again, if you choose to stay in a mental/physical ghetto then that's your choice. certain factors exist that will push/pull you deeper into the mentality of one who cannot "get free". but whether you believe it or not, it's still possible.

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html
-----------------------------
Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------

  

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Battousai
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Fri Aug-11-00 08:41 PM

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23. "Perhaps it's not the same..."
In response to Reply # 2


          

From what I gathered, Niskanen isn't so much concerned about the mentality that comes with being on welfare as he is with welfare as an institution. Keep in mind that Niskanen is chairman of the Cato Institute and his job is pretty much to attack and debunk government policies that arose from the New Deal.

----------------------------------------
Densetsu no hitokiri, Himura Battousai.

"If victories are flawless, then what are you gonna land on?" - Thirstin Howl III

"I prefer manga, with mecha..." - Del

http://welcome.to/crunchyfrog/

--

Your San Francisco Giants: 4.26.2005 - 8.15.2005.

  

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Expertise
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Fri Aug-11-00 04:31 PM

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22. "RE: Culture of Poverty?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

This is a very good thread.

In the quote K_Orr gave in the initial post I think Niskanen was right on the money. I believe Welfare is indeed a consequence for bad decisions. However, it must be said that these conditions are not based on welfare alone; there are rich people that go through these things also, it's just that with their financial status they are able to get over it quicker and ride out the storm easier.

I also agree with Boodaah's view. I feel there is an anti-achievement mentality in modern society, and by consequence we have a welfare culture. I think we ourselves down each other and belittle each other for doing something positive to the point that people often give up trying to succeed. Optimism is considered cheesy. Success means you were privileged. Education is a waste of time. To be rich is to be evil and exploitive.

Instead of trying to fight this mentality, we have people that want to feed it, by implementing numerous government programs and wealth redistribution programs designed to keep the less unfortunate protected and satisfied. Why try to better yourself when it's so easy to get a free ride? I have known people that have children for the simple fact they are going to get some taxpayer money from the government in order to take care of the kids, not to mention tax credits, writeoffs, etc. It's gotten to the point where the majority of the citizens ask what is government going to do for THEM, as if government programs are the true nature and purpose of government. Therefore, what do you expect when you have leftists saying, "You'll never succeed, therefore we are going to use government to give you money."

This is a growing problem in the black community, and needs to be nipped in the bud.

You have had the pleasure of reading
Expertise's posts.

Okayplayer forum, Boondocks forum,
Blackplanet member (but I don't do
anything there now but email because
it's lame), member of Go Network's
African-American Chatroom
(AmericasRealExpert, YoungIntellect),
and a member of Yahoo.com (real_expert,
expertise.rm)

And a PROUD black conservative.

"Darkness comes so others may see the
light"

Expertise@rocketmail.com or
therealexpert@hotmail.com



Some of you still think America's a
democracy. Lemme break it down for
ya...

* Democracy:  Three wolves and a sheep
vote on the dinner menu.
* Democratically Elected Republic: Three
wolves and 2 sheep vote on which sheep's
for dinner. 
* Constitutional Republic: The eating of
mutton is forbidden by law, and the
sheep are armed.

The United States is a CONSTITUTIONAL
REPUBLIC. Not a democracy.

_________________________
http://expertise.blogdrive.com
http://twitter.com/KMBReferee
http://www.ask.fm/KMBReferee

  

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BooDaah
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Fri Aug-11-00 11:38 PM

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24. "whoa now there player...."
In response to Reply # 22


          

you said...

>I also agree with Boodaah's view.

then you said...

> I feel there is
>an anti-achievement mentality in modern
>society, and by consequence we
>have a welfare culture.

I never said this

>I think we ourselves down
>each other and belittle each
>other for doing something positive
>to the point that people
>often give up trying to
>succeed. Optimism is considered
>cheesy. Success means you
>were privileged.

never said this either


>Education is
>a waste of time.

i agree that for many this is the sentiment, but it ain't new, so I don't trip off it too much.

>To be rich is to
>be evil and exploitive.

if anything this is the opposite. sadly in way too many cases, material wealth is the ONLY thing that matters to some. Cash Rules.... ( )

Evidently I have been unclear. i'll restate:

Firsthand I have seen what I call a "welfare/ghetto mentality". To me this is the idea that because this world is so effed up there is no reason to try and achieve anything better by whatever means you can (without making the situation worse for othrs in the process, btw). I agree that this world is effed up and that it's too bad, but in my opinion it is silly to expect or depend on others to help you (or give you what you feel is your due) because they very well might not. Sure somone MAY come along to help you (many did for me), but you can't sit and wait because this world will eat you up if you don't fight the best you can and ultimately waiting for someone to give you something is in my opinion potentially self-defeating. I believe that anytime you allow someone else to sustain you (which is different than help), that you give them power over you. In other words, you contribute to enslaving yourself (mentally, physically, whatever). I believe in the power of self determination to help overcome. I'm aware that this is not necessarily going to guarantee you success, but i think trying to help yourself is better than not trying. I don't expect anyone to share these beliefs. It's merely my opinion.

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html
-----------------------------
Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------

  

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Expertise
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37848 posts
Sat Aug-12-00 03:49 AM

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25. "RE: whoa now there player...."
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

First of all, lemme clarify myself. After I typed the sentence "I agree with Boodaah too", that was all I had to say about what you said. I wasn't trying to paraphrase you. What I was doing was starting to explain why the welfare status exists and is still growing, which is because of the anti-achievement mentality. In no way was I trying to say that was what you were saying. Having said that Boodaah, do you agree that welfare mentality and anti-achievement goes hand-in-hand, if not simular?


>>Education is
>>a waste of time.
>
>i agree that for many this
>is the sentiment, but it
>ain't new, so I don't
>trip off it too much.

I am. I think to reverse these mentalities is to stress the importance of ambition, and one of the best ways to climb up the ladder is through education.

>>To be rich is to
>>be evil and exploitive.
>
>if anything this is the opposite.
>sadly in way too many
>cases, material wealth is the
>ONLY thing that matters to
>some. Cash Rules.... (

Well we are living in a capitalist society. Therefore, money is indeed a necessary evil. However, you can't expect to go by money alone. I was just reading in Money Magazine where Shaquille O'Neal owns shares of AOL and another corporation, and he has plenty of stock in other public companies. Why? Because he almost killed his first year's paycheck spending like crazy. So you definitely have to have more than just money, either you got to learn how to invest, like Shaq, or be able to keep yourself fresh and in a position to continue making more and more money as fast as you spend it, like, say, Master P.

>Evidently I have been unclear. i'll
>restate:

>Firsthand I have seen what I
>call a "welfare/ghetto mentality". To
>me this is the idea
>that because this world is
>so effed up there is
>no reason to try and
>achieve anything better by whatever
>means you can (without making
>the situation worse for othrs
>in the process, btw). I
>agree that this world is
>effed up and that it's
>too bad, but in my
>opinion it is silly to
>expect or depend on others
>to help you (or give
>you what you feel is
>your due) because they very
>well might not. Sure somone
>MAY come along to help
>you (many did for me),
>but you can't sit and
>wait because this world will
>eat you up if you
>don't fight the best you
>can and ultimately waiting for
>someone to give you something
>is in my opinion potentially
>self-defeating. I believe that anytime
>you allow someone else to
>sustain you (which is different
>than help), that you give
>them power over you. In
>other words, you contribute to
>enslaving yourself (mentally, physically, whatever).

Exactly. And I feel that's what alot of people do. They have it in their minds that they ain't nothing, never was anything, and never will be anything, and by virtue they don't try to better themselves in any aspect. I feel (and I'm adding on here) that this idea is manifested by leftist ideals, such as wealth distribution, long-term government programs, etc.

>I believe in the power
>of self determination to help
>overcome. I'm aware that this
>is not necessarily going to
>guarantee you success, but i
>think trying to help yourself
>is better than not trying.
>I don't expect anyone to
>share these beliefs. It's merely
>my opinion.

I feel (and I'm adding on) that if you give it 100%, and you happen to fail at that moment, you aren't a loser. You only lose when you quit. I think it was Aaliyah that sang "And if at first you don't succeed....pick yourself up and try again." More people need to take heed of that message. Also, there is nothing wrong with earning what you keep, however little it is. I'd rather have $500 dollars that I earned than $5,000 of what someone gave me and I didn't deserve it. But I guess I'm unique like that compared to today's society.

You have had the pleasure of reading
Expertise's posts.

Okayplayer forum, Boondocks forum,
Blackplanet member (but I don't do
anything there now but email because
it's lame), member of Go Network's
African-American Chatroom
(AmericasRealExpert, YoungIntellect),
and a member of Yahoo.com (real_expert,
expertise.rm)

And a PROUD black conservative.

"Darkness comes so others may see the
light"

Expertise@rocketmail.com or
therealexpert@hotmail.com



Some of you still think America's a
democracy. Lemme break it down for
ya...

* Democracy:  Three wolves and a sheep
vote on the dinner menu.
* Democratically Elected Republic: Three
wolves and 2 sheep vote on which sheep's
for dinner. 
* Constitutional Republic: The eating of
mutton is forbidden by law, and the
sheep are armed.

The United States is a CONSTITUTIONAL
REPUBLIC. Not a democracy.

_________________________
http://expertise.blogdrive.com
http://twitter.com/KMBReferee
http://www.ask.fm/KMBReferee

  

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spirit
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21338 posts
Sun Aug-13-00 07:57 AM

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30. "RE: Culture of Poverty?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>Do you believe in it?
>
>From William Niskanen
>"Welfare is both a consequence and
>a cause of several conditions
>best described as social pathologies.
>These conditions include dependency, poverty,
>out-of-wedlock births, nonemployment, abortion, and
>violent crime.

okay, i don't believe in this...but i do believe in a culture of underachievement, where cats on the honor roll are looked at as clowns instead of success stories...

i think out-of-wedlock births and violent crime might be more attributable to a culture of "misplaced masculinity", where cats judge their manhood by how many girls they've bagged or their ability to handle violent confrontation. has nothing to do with poverty, if you ask me. the columbine high school cats weren't poor, but it seems to me they had some masculinity issues, the "rambo" syndrome, that "oh, they're fucking with me, i'm gonna kill everyone". they were pretty badly in need of a hug.

Spread love,

Spirit
http://www.theamphibians.com

August is Top 10 Month...

The 10 Reasons why you should go to http://www.theamphibians.com

(1) the all-american jerk boy awards...guilliani is leading...
(2) for your convenience, we only do updates once every blue moon
(3) because i'll break your legs if you don't
(4) you need a reason to put off clipping your toenails for 7 more minutes
(5) the bizarre user names (mr. bungles, angry armenian, spottieottiedopalicious etc.)
(6) the good posts that get completely unrecognized
(7) the amazingly true story of me getting mugged, somewhere in there
(8) the goofy bios
(9) to figure out what the hell "fermented bells" are
(10) because you're tired of reading this long ass lists of reasons....just click it! http://www.theamphibians.com

9 out of 10 people with two arms find something interesting about http://www.theamphibians.com
This summer: new audio, same odd sense of humor. Don't get "left" out, mossie your two-armed self on over and check it out.

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

  

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k_orr
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80197 posts
Mon Aug-14-00 03:16 AM

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33. "RE: Culture of Poverty?"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          


>okay, i don't believe in this...but
>i do believe in a
>culture of underachievement, where cats
>on the honor roll are
>looked at as clowns instead
>of success stories...

I will readily agree with that. And it's not just something that happens in so-called poor schools. Many of the middle class African Americans I met in college, the "talented tenth", were all ridiculed by their black peers throughout school. This was in addition to the day to day identity struggle as well as dealing with Majority-America.

>i think out-of-wedlock births and violent
>crime might be more attributable
>to a culture of "misplaced
>masculinity", where cats judge their
>manhood by how many girls
>they've bagged or their ability
>to handle violent confrontation. has
>nothing to do with poverty,
>if you ask me.

Again, I agree. The out-of-wedlock births and violent crime are also part and parcel of middle and upper class life. But because these folks have the resources to address these things it is not as much of a visible problem. Like if there was a shooting at most rural or inner-city schools, there would not be grief counselors coming out of the woodworks to console the student body.

An aside from this post, just commenting on the thread in general. It seems there is an almost "blame the victim" mentality from the responders.

Personally, I see many problems of poor neighborhoods as being mostly structural in nature. Whether or not someone is hard-working and looking for every opportunity is irrelevant when it comes to changing class positions. A lot of the proposed solutions often address individuals but not a whole class solution.

What black folks have to ask themselves, is how do we fund our schools when white folks do not want to live near us or locate their major businesses in our neighborhoods?

What steps do we as a people take when even our local governments are inable to help us?

peace
k. orr
house of phat beats

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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BooDaah
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32690 posts
Mon Aug-14-00 05:02 AM

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36. "i agree...sorta"
In response to Reply # 33


          

> Many of the middle class African Americans...

the whole concept of making a pariah out of a person who wishes/works to succeed eduactionally isn't inherent to any particular group. this is an across the board cultural thng here. the whole concept of a "nerd" proves that.

>An aside from this post, just
>commenting on the thread in
>general. It seems there
>is an almost "blame the
>victim" mentality from the responders.

I don't say blame anyone per se(you may not have been talking about me). I say each individual is in charge of taking responsibility for their own well being. don't expect "the system" (or anyone) to help you at no cost. no struggle, no progress right?

>Personally, I see many problems of
>poor neighborhoods as being mostly
>structural in nature.

Many are, but not all. Many problems are self perpetuating because too many people begin to see themselves as powerless.

>Whether or not someone is hard-working
>and looking for every opportunity
>is irrelevant when it comes
>to changing class positions.

I disagree. If these are "irrelevant" then what are the options?

>A lot of the proposed
>solutions often address individuals but
>not a whole class solution.

Isn't a group made of individuals. If you get enough individuals within the group to decide to work in their own best interest won't the group benefit as a result. Not to the extreme of everone for himself, but understanding that by helping me, I'm helping US (especially if I don't abandon the idea that I am part of a community who as a part of I am partially responsible for)? If I don't learn, how am I going to teach? If I don't have my own company how can I employ? I just want to see US take care of us as opposed to waiting on someone else to do it (whenever they decide that they should).

>What black folks have to ask
>themselves, is how do we
>fund our schools when white
>folks do not want to
>live near us or locate
>their major businesses in our
>neighborhoods?

Good point. This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Valuing our ability as a community to NOT be at the whims of another group (political or otherwise) and therefore defining our own agenda for how we should be living.

>What steps do we as a
>people take when even our
>local governments are inable to
>help us?

take that sumbeech over and start fresh. start a coalition. form a grassroots committee. DO WHATEVER, just DO SOMETHING. but if you take yourself out of the picture through ambivalence or apathy you can't complain because you're not doing anything to make things better.
------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html
-----------------------------
Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------

  

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nappiness
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1145 posts
Mon Aug-14-00 07:07 AM

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42. "RE: Culture of Poverty?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

man, i got tired of arguing this when i was in grad school. i took several poverty courses in the urban and regional planning dept. and many of those folks had a warped thinking.

culture of poverty. i agree that there is a ghetto/project/mentality, but i also believe that just because u physically live in this state doesn't mean that your mind has to. for example, i was poor growing up but poverty was never an excuse for me not to strive. (no i am not on some ole reagan-omics of pulling yo'self up from your bootstraps) but i know that my mother conditioned my thinking whereas i wouldn't believe or think less of myself or my potential b/c we were p.

i also believe that in this capitalist country that we live in poverty is a neccesary component of the paradigm so that the lower and underclass (the reserved army). do i agree or accept the paradigm, hell no, but i do understand it.
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YemayaBlue
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Mon Aug-14-00 08:46 AM

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45. "RE: Culture of Poverty?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

What's up Okayplayers...I'm new to the boards, so be gentle with me, while I respond.

I definitely think there are some cultural influences that arrive as a result of poverty. Just the other day I watched in almost horror while Maria Shriver interviewed some women in Cali for Dateline, I think. There was this one chick who hadn't worked her entire life, had 5 kids by different fathers, and then, when allowed to be a part of a program that subsidized her moving out of the projects into a nice middle class neighborhood & offered her job training...this 29 year old woman said it was harder to work than we understood (and that's why she turned down job training on 3 occassions). I almost threw the remote at the TV. I was past disgusted. Her acting downright ig'nant on national tv just made my heart hurt. She's an example of how the effects of poverty can influence the culture created by people living in those conditions.

The happy part of the story is that sister finally got herself together, by getting a GED and computer training. So the poverty & culture can be overcome, it just takes an inner resolve and some exposure to a world greater than the one in which people live.

That's my take on it in any case.


"If I don't like it, I don't like it...that don't mean that I'm hatin'!" Common







*****
Yeah, it's a new beginning...

You wanna know the 'ideal' relationship we as humans should be on earth, just look up at the sky and emulate the stars. Harmonize in space, time and reflect off each others light. -- Ms. Pele

  

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Shaun_G
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Mon Aug-14-00 09:17 AM

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48. "RE: Culture of Poverty?"
In response to Reply # 45


          

The problem with that report is that people believe that's the norm when it comes to welfare.
I read somewhere that the average welfare receipient has less than 2 kids (it was something like 1.7 kids).

Shaun G.

  

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YemayaBlue
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Mon Aug-14-00 10:25 AM

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55. "RE: Culture of Poverty?"
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

Right. We all know the motto of the media is to show the 'worst case scenario' and typify it as the norm. It makes those who aren't a part of that reality hurt all the more...but at the same we gotta do something about the people who that IS a reality for as well...a tangled web if I ever saw one.


*If I don't like it, I don't like it, that don't mean that I'm hating!* Common

*****
Yeah, it's a new beginning...

You wanna know the 'ideal' relationship we as humans should be on earth, just look up at the sky and emulate the stars. Harmonize in space, time and reflect off each others light. -- Ms. Pele

  

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Wendell
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Mon Aug-14-00 09:21 AM

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49. "Were they gonna"
In response to Reply # 45


          

provide day care also?

Raising 5 kids is harding than any job on the planet!

Peace

Pseudonym-less Wendell

Peace

Wendell

  

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BooDaah
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Mon Aug-14-00 10:00 AM

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51. "not as hard as..."
In response to Reply # 49


          

..raising more. it's all relative. yeah, i'm being a jerk. sue me

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html
-----------------------------
Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
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YemayaBlue
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Mon Aug-14-00 10:26 AM

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56. "RE: Were they gonna"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

I don't remember if they offered it to her (her kids were mostly over 13 I think). But I'm pretty sure it was offered to other families in the program.

*If I don't like it, I don't like it, that don't mean that I'm hating!* Common

*****
Yeah, it's a new beginning...

You wanna know the 'ideal' relationship we as humans should be on earth, just look up at the sky and emulate the stars. Harmonize in space, time and reflect off each others light. -- Ms. Pele

  

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BooDaah
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Mon Aug-14-00 10:02 AM

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53. "i just wanna say..."
In response to Reply # 45


          

...welcome to the board and thanks for sharing your opinion.

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html
-----------------------------
Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------

  

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YemayaBlue
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Mon Aug-14-00 10:28 AM

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58. "RE: i just wanna say..."
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

Thanks for welcoming me...I'll be back often, I promise. Hey, as a novice to the okp fam, don't laugh when I ask this, but...

How do I do the little smiley-face thingies??? LOL

Ok, since I laughed, you can too...


*If I don't like it, I don't like it, that don't mean that I'm hating!* Common

*****
Yeah, it's a new beginning...

You wanna know the 'ideal' relationship we as humans should be on earth, just look up at the sky and emulate the stars. Harmonize in space, time and reflect off each others light. -- Ms. Pele

  

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BooDaah
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Mon Aug-14-00 10:32 AM

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61. "hit the "help" button above (n/m)"
In response to Reply # 58


          

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html
-----------------------------
Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------

  

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BooDaah
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Mon Aug-14-00 10:28 AM

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59. "I agree w. Shaun_G"
In response to Reply # 0


          

This is an old trick. The media shows one example and makes folks think that's the norm. then folk get the idea that EVERY welfare recipient is a single Black woman with multiple kids. as has been stated before her situation is not endemic of your average welfare recipient. this is where middle america get the whole idea of a "welfare" mother from. that way it's easier for the government to cut funding because john q public (or jane, and btw i've heard way more black folks talk about welfare folk, so let's not get brand new) thinks it's a "reward" system of handouts for rapidly producing black folk. to me, this contributes to the societal factor of the "poverty culture" (for lack of a better term) that wendell discussed.

this is a very cruel trick. and one that is used again and again (show all the black criminals,
make it seem like only blacks do drugs, etc).

but this isn't/shouldn't turn into a discussion about welfare reciepients per se. i feel another
post swerve coming....

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html
-----------------------------
Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------

  

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BooDaah
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Mon Aug-14-00 10:30 AM

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60. "this is a response to #49 (n/m)"
In response to Reply # 59


          

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html
-----------------------------
Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------

  

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k_orr
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Mon Aug-14-00 11:35 AM

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62. "RE: I agree w. Shaun_G"
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

>This is an old trick. The
>media shows one example and
>makes folks think that's the
>norm. then folk get
>the idea that EVERY welfare
>recipient is a single Black
>woman with multiple kids.

I do not know the stats, but aren't these scenarios representative of the people who STAY on welfare for years, and create welfare generations?

peace,
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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BooDaah
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Mon Aug-14-00 11:43 AM

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63. "i dunno"
In response to Reply # 62


          

check for some stats and tell us. either way, since they showed an example so far from the norm (as described in other posts) they seem to be pandering for the "sensational" example.

anybody remeber unbiased reportting (me neither actually)?

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html
-----------------------------
Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------

  

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