at the risk of starting a word war on the boards, i have speak out about the US bashing some feel free to go off about...before I vent, let me reitirate my belief in free speech; this board is a place where you are free to say what you feel, so dont take this as me trying to shut some one down for saying their opinion...now:

America is the greatest country on Earth.

Yep, i said it...and let me state my bonafides, I know I dont have to but I am anyway...I'm a 22 y.o. young dark skinned Black male...born to a very working class family, with ambition that I have inherited, from the Deep Soth (Houston, Tx). This is a country based on more economic freedom, personal freedom, then anywhere else...here, if you work hard enough (regardless of what that work entails) you can achieve your goals...whether they be financial, cultural, etc etc. England, Canada, and Austrailia are all little veriosns of the US in one form or another...

of course, America has problems, many, huge problems...like other places dont? Should you go to anywhere else outside of the places I've mentioned, I guarantee you would not be writing critical letters about the government for long. Basically, I just wanted to put out a dissenting vote about the state of this country and the nation itself....if anyone would like to rebutt this, and list some reasons why America sucks, and that individual wants to move, cool...I'll get at you ona a 1 on 1 basis...if not, cool, I just had to unroll the flag and let that shit fly for a minute...


Bin

on sabbatical.

does it really matter?

wonder what bin's doing?
http://i.imgur.com/phECCMp.jpg

I totally agree with you. If you dont like it, then leave. Other countries wouldnt allow you to talk shit about the country like America does. If you dont like how facist this country is becoming, then take your sorry ass to a more "left wing" country. Once you realize that free speech is a privilege, and can be taken away, you will shut the fuck up.

So because this country allows us to speak up on its faults, we should just shut up about them?

Does that even make sense?

Shaun G.

no, of course not...speaking on the faults of the country is one of the best things about this country...hopefully (in Fraggleland cuz it aint ahppening in real life) one can use discussion to build a lasting solution to said problems...I find it sad and hypocritical, however, when people criticize and criticize about the state of America, yet offer no meaningful solutions, and still continue to live and prosper in this country that they profess to despise so much...

on sabbatical.

does it really matter?

wonder what bin's doing?
http://i.imgur.com/phECCMp.jpg

"I find it sad and hypocritical, however, when people criticize and criticize about the state of America, yet offer no meaningful solutions, and still continue to live and prosper in this country that they profess to despise so much... "

Do you have one eye closed or what- do you see throngs of people protesting the conditions of this country or are you only willing to sit in on the discussions that lead to such protest.

Maybe you dont see anybody doing anything cuz you're not doing anything yourself. Well then- pick up a sign and join a protest this is when you're gonna relize that alot of the meaningful solutions (in this country the most solving action we are allowed is the right to protest) that discontented people provide are met by forceful opposition and intimidation.

Dont get it twisted- people have legitimate concerns and just as many solutions but many have yet to find the government willing to listen or respond.

People are doing a hell of alot- as much as they can- what is America doing in return; providing a diminished variety of the things it claims to be wholeheartedly about- thats just not good enough.

and it certainly wouldnt qualify this country as great

K

>Do you have one eye closed
>or what- do you see
>throngs of people protesting the
>conditions of this country or
>are you only willing to
>sit in on the discussions
>that lead to such protest.
>
protests accomplish absolutly NOTHING. nothing at all...you can sit and protest and march and sit in and everythign else, but until those in power see some actions backing your words, they have and will continue to ignore and marginalize everything you say and do. which is why nothing changes (or changed) which is why groups like the Panthers, the weathermen, etc etc backed up their rhetoric with action, got the attention of the status quo. thats the truth...not just my opinion.>

>Maybe you dont see anybody doing
>anything cuz you're not doing
>anything yourself.
maybe I didn't clarify myself enough, I dont mind the status quo....in fact could care less about the stauts quo...that is not going to stop me from going where I want to go...what I'm doing is activly promoting the agenda that I am most in agreement with, which doesn't have anything to do with protesting or anything else.
Well then- pick
>up a sign and join
>a protest this is when
>you're gonna relize that alot
>of the meaningful solutions (in
>this country the most solving
>action we are allowed is
>the right to protest) that
>discontented people provide are met
>by forceful opposition and intimidation.
>
if you want it, this country will either force you to go out and get it, or remain disgruntled and complaining about the fact that you aint got it. more truth.
>
>Dont get it twisted- people have
>legitimate concerns and just as
>many solutions but many have
>yet to find the government
>willing to listen or respond.
>
>
>People are doing a hell of
>alot- as much as they
>can- what is America doing
>in return; providing a diminished
>variety of the things it
>claims to be wholeheartedly about-
>thats just not good enough.
>
what do you expect? people in power to give up that power just because you asked? to put the stamp of approval on your complaints, just because you voiced them?>

>and it certainly wouldnt qualify this
>country as great
>
>K

on sabbatical.

does it really matter?

wonder what bin's doing?
http://i.imgur.com/phECCMp.jpg

>>Do you have one eye closed
>>or what- do you see
>>throngs of people protesting the
>>conditions of this country or
>>are you only willing to
>>sit in on the discussions
>>that lead to such protest.
>>
>protests accomplish absolutly NOTHING. nothing at all...you can sit and protest and march and sit in and everythign else, but until those in power see some actions backing your words, they have and will continue to ignore and marginalize everything you say and do. which is why nothing changes (or changed) which is why groups like the Panthers, the weathermen, etc etc backed up their rhetoric with action, got the attention of the status quo. thats the truth...not just my opinion.>


Then the problem is the American government that you're so proud of offers nothing else as a recognoizable or acceptable action. The likes of the Panthers are likely to get you inducted among the ranks of men under surveillance and first in line to be shot or imprisoned under suspicious circumstances. Not too many people want to go that route so they do what they can by the confines of the law in order to change the law- the fact that America doesnt respond to the very means of change that they offer is very indicting and contradictory to your claims that this country is something to be proud of.

"Should you go to anywhere else outside of the places I've mentioned, I guarantee you would not be writing critical letters about the government for
long."

well apparently in this country you can write as many letters as you want and still not be heard.

whats the difference?

>what I'm doing is
>activly promoting the agenda that
>I am most in agreement
>with, which doesn't have anything
>to do with protesting or
>anything else.

what agenda is that? pro-american?

>Well then- pick
>>up a sign and join
>>a protest this is when
>>you're gonna relize that alot
>>of the meaningful solutions (in
>>this country the most solving
>>action we are allowed is
>>the right to protest) that
>>discontented people provide are met
>>by forceful opposition and intimidation.
>>
>if you want it, this country
>will either force you to
>go out and get it,
>or remain disgruntled and complaining
>about the fact that you
>aint got it. more truth.

thats the same truth that presides in any country around the world- you've said nothing complimentary of America specifically. Now you're saying its more like take it or leave it- well sandanista rebels could say the same shit doesnt mean they're living in the "greatest country in the world"

>what do you expect? people in power to give up that power just because you asked? to put the stamp of approval on your complaints, just because you voiced them?>

Im expecting that when people voice their concerns and reasonable complaints and protests towards the government they not be greeted with the responses that you've offered, ideas such as- if you dont like it leave, its better here than anywhere else, or just deal with it.

sorry dude- none of that makes for a great country.

K

>sorry dude- none of that makes
>for a great country.
>
>K

what does?

on sabbatical.

does it really matter?

wonder what bin's doing?
http://i.imgur.com/phECCMp.jpg

>what does?

All those things that america proposes to offer- fair representation, equality no matter race, sex, or creed- this means equal opportunity, pursuit of happiness- these things would make a great country but not many people can conclude fairly that this country has delivered on those promises.

as such as great as america could be- it still hasnt made it yet, and the guys running it are sending it in some other direction.

k

I will get up and try to dissect things, with facts instead of just my words....

on sabbatical.

does it really matter?

wonder what bin's doing?
http://i.imgur.com/phECCMp.jpg

What I am saying is that you are only talking. Everyone is talking, nobody is doing a damn thing.

Thats the same shit you're doing so wtf are you talking about- i hate when people post ish just to tell somebody else that they "aint doin nuthin but talkin" obviously you aint doin much more than talking about somebody talkin so what are YOU doing?

the impression you have that no one is doing anything? so wrong...go check Pat Buchanans web site and his list of donors and supporters...his constituents are a whos who of the hard right, and they are ACTIVE in promoting their agenda...if the Reform Party gets the fed money they want...you'll see columbinists coming out the woodwork, while other so called progressive people (whether white, Black or whatever) sit and mope about their lack of oppertunity to express themselves, while one group is out and active, another sits and complains...

on sabbatical.

does it really matter?

wonder what bin's doing?
http://i.imgur.com/phECCMp.jpg

Now you're just talking

"while other so called progressive people (whether white, Black or whatever) sit and mope about their lack of oppertunity to express themselves, while one group is out and active, another sits and complains... "

which group is this, certainly you're not hitting up a message board to indict the people on it for being inactive. Thats like going into somebody's bathroom and accusing them of being wasteful.

K

this is a msg board...where people leave msgs...talk is supposed to happen here...but if thats all you do, talk on a msg board then consider my unintentional dis intentional to you. there are many groups that are active in the communites, whther black, white or whatever....whom I respect for the work they do. I happen to be a member of one of the best ones (N'COBRA) but as is often the case, i run into sideline activists, who decide their contribution to change will be more conversation...which no one needs more of. as for the americas the greatest statement...I ahve lived only one other place (japan)...what I mean is that here, one can accomplish whatever one chooses to...if one is willing to accept the consequnces of ones actions...as the Worlds superpwoer, one has more oppertunity here...thats what i mean by thr greatest...what country offers what America does? obviusly you have one in mind...

on sabbatical.

does it really matter?

wonder what bin's doing?
http://i.imgur.com/phECCMp.jpg

This isnt all that i do and the assumption that anybody here does that is unqualified and rude. hopefully all the "sideline activists" you run into are in your day to day travels cuz it would be silly of you to accuse anyone here of that being that this is the sideline.

Leave people to whatever they decide to do in their daily lives but suggesting that people arent doing anything is rude cuz you dont know. ive seen protests organized here and a lot of information that results in people organizing- above all this place's primary focus will be discssion as all other activity wont be demonstrated here- how could it be.

I could be taking time off from burning the flag in front of Lloyd and taylor- you wouldnt know one way or the other.

in any case let's set aside all presumptions of people's activity and discuss your topic.

"what I mean is that here, one can accomplish whatever one chooses to..."

since this is not entirely true your statement is false. Certainly there are a great many opportunities available in this country but to say that everyone has a chance at one is grossly naive- to even say that those opportunities are provided farily and evenly among American citizens (much less people who live within the confines of america but arent citizens) is innaccurate.

"if one is willing to accept the consequnces of ones actions..."

again it can be demonstrated the the actions and consequences imposed on the lives of urban african americams is in the first part unfavorable and in the latter disproptionately harsh in regards to Black people.

look at what america does- imports crack to this country to get in good with the contras pressures blacks to sell it and then charges them 5 times more harshly than anybody found in posession of cocaine whic is the formulative element.

sorry that doesnt spell out great opportunity to me.

"as the Worlds superpwoer, one has more oppertunity here...thats what i mean by thr greatest..."

seeing as you have no information to offer on the living conditions of other countries I cant see this statement as being qualified. in this country you may have more opportunities to work twoard the rewards that the capitalist system sets forth as things youd like to attain but what of people who arent concerned with material wealth and financial success?

have you ever been to Italy, France, Sweden- these countries offer freedom to their citizens and none of them do so alongside the impression that if you are disatisfied you might as well be spitting in the wind or setting yourself up to be murdered if you say antything.


Sorry dude- in whatever you offer that diminishes the luxury of any other country America too has found many ways to take advantage of its people.

I question actually your idea that if im not satisfied with this nation that i should choose another or be satisfied- might i remind you that there a great many communities that survive without being included in such a system of public policy.

K

You're impression of America manages to preclude a great number of indiscretions and crimes that are perpetuated by America.

If its not the false imprisonment of Haitian refugees, its covert operations in several nations around the world, its CIA operatives that import crack, other drugs and weapons into our community to pledge allegiance to those same foreign countries that you claim wouldnt afford us the opportunity to speak out about such things.

Seeing as America is the world power- your argument that were better off here may not suffice against the argument that this very country is what makes situations elsewhere so dire.

Im not takin this to the one on one- the two of you (bin and bomb) seem to think this is not the place for talking but i think this place was founded on the premise of productive discussion. People should get these issues out in the open and share their ideas.

"America is the greatest country on Earth." thats a pretty bold statement and I dont think you can make such an assessment in the comparitive fashion you're suggesting. Have you ever lived outside of america? Fact is you dont know how other countries are, nor do you know the full extent to which America has caused whatever conditions you wouldnt be happy with.

"This is a country based on more economic freedom, personal freedom, then anywhere else..." This country is also based on more racism and race ideology than anywhere else- this idea still persists to divide and conquer human dignity and liberation. Furthermore the means of economic and personal freedom are disproportionately distributed along class lines that attempt to facilitate the fore mentioned race ideology.

I dont know exactly what you mean by personal freedom but the fact is if your personal freedoms dont have the capacity to keep you from being shot and brutalized by the authority then your personal freedoms arent worth shit- ask amadou diallo he was free, he was also shot 41 times- the only guys that are free now are the cops that shot him.

"if you work hard enough (regardless of what that work entails) you can achieve your goals...whether they be financial, cultural, etc etc."

...regardless of what that work entails- dont be so sure about that. Urban work may entail drug sales- and while much of the drugs have been supplied and provided for by the american government the american justice system will turn tail and prosecute the guys they sold the drugs to. While working hard is an option for all the regards to which you are working are severely unfavorable among Blacks. Again it doesnt matter how much Im allowed to work if I can still be brutalized, killed, under and misrepresented. did Diallo have a job?

"England, Canada, and Austrailia are all little veriosns of the US in one form or another..."

This is silly talk- Those countries are governments by regency and parliament, they honor the anglican church, the royal family, and parliament. to say that they are little versions of teh US is foolish cuz their system of government and society precedes ours by a century or two. Have you ever been to any of these countries?


America is not the greatest country in the world and people who disagree with you dont necessarily need to go to another country- but perhaps for your own enlightment you might try travelling abroad yourself.


Please feel free to respond

K

hold it...i never stated that those who dont like America should leave, and if thats the impressiona i left, excuse me, I didn't mean to....I want those who disagree to stay and help fix what they see as being wrong....what I ahve a problem with is those who sit on the sidelines, whining and complaining...while those who are working against them are actively tearing things down...dont talk, be about it, something, anything...or dont complain...and yes, this is the forum to discuss things...

on sabbatical.

does it really matter?

wonder what bin's doing?
http://i.imgur.com/phECCMp.jpg

I think thats just the impression you made especially with bomb's statements but i understand that this isnt something you specifically said.

As far as people whining on the sidelines according to the america that you wave the flag for makes the provision that all of us are entitled to the pursuit of happines as such all those layabouts (although you really should identify the group in question or at least some demonstrative statistic as to their demographic to have it many anything) have the courtesy of the US government to be exactly as they are.

However there is no provision that those people should be overrun by their government and not only is it a matter of those who do nothing getting taken advantage a great number of people who do protest are opposed, oppressed and even killed for their protest.

Even by your glorified view of America and what it offers it still does not accomplish that which it is primarily charged with- fair representation and security for its citizens. It not only fails in delivering those liberties it frequently infringes upon them.


As I said before I am not Anti-American the American government is.



K

>As far as people whining on
>the sidelines according to the
>america that you wave the
>flag for makes the provision
>that all of us are
>entitled to the pursuit of
>happines as such all those
>layabouts (although you really should
>identify the group in question
>or at least some demonstrative
>statistic as to their demographic
>to have it many anything)
>have the courtesy of the
>US government to be exactly
>as they are.
>
no doubt! that is my point, thanks....you have the right to complain and whine all damn day if you choose, sit and talk all day long....but the ones who get change, who manage to swing things their way, are doing things, are actively working to change things, not just talking...that is the beauty of America or one of the beautiful things, sure, talk all you want...but the individual who works the hardest ultimately wins...

>However there is no provision that
>those people should be overrun
>by their government and not
>only is it a matter
>of those who do nothing
>getting taken advantage a great
>number of people who do
>protest are opposed, oppressed and
>even killed for their protest.
>
you, no doubt, have heard the saying "black people have to work twice as hard to get half as much?" this is not a cliche, this is fact...my pointis if one is black and wants twice as much, that individual will ahve to work 4 times as hard, understand?....there are facts of life that we have to deal with. facts. nobody is gonna give you anything, nothing, in fact if at all possible, they will take things from you. in America that is obvious...everyone is after something...its the american dream....so, if you want change...act towards it...and accept the truth of what you have to do...will that be easy, hell no...thats why they call it a 'struggle' we must 'overcome'....its just that since the 60's there are fewer and fewer willing to act...and many who are willing to talk...

on sabbatical.

does it really matter?

wonder what bin's doing?
http://i.imgur.com/phECCMp.jpg

I still dont know who you're talking about when you indict so-called "sideline activists" do you have anything that indicates any of those people are here or are you content in making sucj exclamations to demonstrate that you are about more than that.

Well if its the latter- we're all proud of you if that makes you happy but if you must persist to talk about people who do nothing but talk then perhaps you shouldnt take this message board at its face value.

People who do more than talk- but its not so easy to put a rally into a thread.

K

but the problem is that you have point/counterpoint in the bigger picture. while you can be wealthy, some (read: most) will never be.

but i know one thing, i ain't ready to go.



NOW PUT THAT IN YOUR PIPE AND SMOKE IT!!!!
_______________________________
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I just want to know how you know America is the best country with the most opportunity ? If you haven't lived anywhere other than Japan and US I don't see how you can come to that conclusion. That's cool though, all us "smaller versions of America" know how good we have it and are happy to keep it to ourselves.

I've been to America twice and the most noticable aspect was the HUGE difference between the rich and poor. The distribution of wealth seemed really poor. From that, I assumed opportunities are rare for the lower end of the scale. Just an observation...someone tell me I'm wrong ?

Obviously you're from one of those "little versions of the US" and you have a complex.

K

Am I wrong about there not being a lot of opportunity for the lower end of the scale or am I wrong about the distribution of wealth or am I wrong about both ?

and yes, I am from one of those "little versions of the US" but NO I don't have a complex.

If you're from one of those little versions of the US- you cant help but have a complex (thats a wink- that means Im kidding)

I get it. It's easy to read things out of context. Point taken.....




"wisest is he who knows he does not know"

"if life is prison, music is the yard time"

"you people, if it's not in a hollywood movie it's not worth knowing"

I agree with that. Protesting does absolutely nothing. Ok, you make some signs, and you crowd a street, then when the police tell you to move, you move. The media makes protesting look like a total joke. The only time people are gonna tune in is when violence erupts, until then, its a lost cause.

fuck americans

and fuck you

(god that felt good)


s ckjustgothimselfawholeWORLDoftroublebutseriouslyFUCKYOUARROGANTMOTHERFUCKINGAMERICANS

You sure did get yourself in a lot of trouble, love. Where do you think the okayartists are from? And most of the people here?

I cannot say that the US is as great a nation as it could be...but I do know that other nations in the world have plenty of faults of their own that they could be dealing with..many of the same flaws the US has, actually. I mean, this is where I'm from, and I am American, whether I want to be or not. Culturally, I am from here. And I don't appreciate you disrespecting all of us like that.

http://www.funkknots.com look at the wonderful art! No it ain't mine! Just go there!Support your fellow player, ffunkknots

"Let them have their toy, we've got books."
Bill Cosby's response to Tavis Smiley of "BET Tonight "regarding the lack of minorities on television."

"Multiculturalism is a white people joke. Black people have always been here as different. People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

brilliant reply...you are obviously very intelligent


aka take this foolishness to GD


herb

on sabbatical.

does it really matter?

wonder what bin's doing?
http://i.imgur.com/phECCMp.jpg

you guys are AMERICAN?

shit, i thought this whole okayplayer thing came out of the UK

you're right, i was being WAAAY too general

of course, most of you are American, and damn fine human beings

so i'll retract my former statement, and just say this..

fuck you binlahab, ya smug fuck, how does it feel, sitting on Uncle Sam's lap?

(oh, and those things he makes you do, that are supposed to be a secret between you and him? you really should tell somebody..)


s ckula

sorry bin
that ish i just said was not necessary
('specially after i found out you were an al green fan)

http://www.okayplayer.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=5836&forum=lesson&omm=0

please don't bomb my country


s ck

Yep, we live in a "good" country. I have no ideal where the "best" country is located on the globe. IF our country lived up to its credo, then it would be the "best" country, but unfortunately it doesn't and it won't, EVER!

Our government has taken a form and shape that wasn't predicted by the people who created it. I actually remember reading one of the founding fathers saying that the government should be scrapped and redone every now and then, but that's another point on a different thread.

What really disappoints me about this thread is that some of the people talk about how protesting and marching doesn't change the government. If it wasn't for protesting and marching, I'm not sure where Black folks would be right now. Don't forget that it was only 40 years ago that those tactics aided Blacks in getting the right to vote, end segregation and pursue liberties that were never available beforehand. Are we (our generation) diminishing the importance of the people who fought FOR US???

That thought damn near brings tears to my eyes.

I could talk about the government and who it really represents, but I got work to do.

Peace

Pseudonym-less Wendell

Peace

Wendell

never that, i don't want anyone to take me wrong, i'm not trying to demean what they did in the slightest...marching accomplished a great deal THEN, an enourmous amount...then the powers that be figured out that if you give us a token concession, we will be quiet...and suddenly marching by itself wasn't enough...

on sabbatical.

does it really matter?

wonder what bin's doing?
http://i.imgur.com/phECCMp.jpg

Don't forget what Dr. King had to say about non-violence -- that it wasn't going to bring about immediate change. That all it would do is provide an opportunity for those opposing the change to see things a different way.

It's about planting the seed. It's about taking the first step. Just because you can't see immediate results never means that your action is unimportant or won't change the world.

Let me see if I can find the exact quote from Dr. King and if I can I'll post it here.

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

"I do not want to give the impression that nonviolence will work miracles overnight. People are not easily moved from their mental ruts or purged of their prejudice and irrational feelings. When the underprvileged demand freedom, the privileged first react with bitterness and resistance. Even when the demands are couched in nonviolent terms, the initial response is the same. So the nonviolent approach does not immediately change the heart of the oppressor. It first does something to the hearts and souls of those committed to it. It gives them a new self-respect; it calls up resources of strength and courage that they did not know they had. Finally, it reaches the opponent and so stirs his conscience that reconciliation becomes a reality."

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

I can't really come up with a number of legitimate reasons as to why America is not the best country in the world, all I can state is opinion...here's mine...

while America is the strongest economic force in the world, how they got and remain there is highly dispicable...they engage in high levels of exploitation, corruption, thievery, you name it, and it continues...for a country that has so much money, there is no excuse for the disproportionate levels of poverty, people having to pay for basic medical care, all while sports stars and olympic athlete's have a financial future fit for a king/queen....

as for being able to achieve your goals..sure..but don't think that there won't be a cap on how far you can go...I mean, if someone doesn't want you to make it to the top, you won't..it's sad, but it happens, whether through assassination or systematically making it difficult for you, they can, and they usually do....

corruption exists everywhere, it's not worth mentioning...

racism of some sort exists everywhere, it's not worth mentioning either, although the levels may be a bit higher in some places...

that's all that I can think of for now, but trust, a great deal of the people that have moved to the US from other places have only done it for financial reasons, and after a time end up leaving for a better life...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"awwwwwwwwww, fuck dat shit"---tash

************* **************

"if your mind can see it then your vagina can achieve it"---Jumecca's advice on how to get layed in the 2000

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" - Stephen H

America is a great place!! But don't say it's the greatest when if you haven't been to all countries within this world. I'm from Belize and that is a damn good country. Yankee people knock foreign too much and it's not fair. But take a trip around the world first befored yuh caan speak on it!
Moe....pon di lips!