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Lobby Okay Activist Archives topic #21405

Subject: "A Great Society" This topic is locked.
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illosopher
Charter member
596 posts
Mon Sep-11-00 09:09 AM

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"A Great Society"


          

Well, well, well, It seems i'm living up to my title as the most inflamatory cat on the board. While i do beleive it is good to have one cat play the controversial role, at the same time it think we are on here to find a common ground to build on not destroy.

With that in mind can we COME TOGETHER and build a philosopy that can co-exist with our current religions, faiths and practices, that can help us find a common ground in our hope to elevate humanity. So i humbly ask for suggestions to compile a list of ideas and princibles we can take into this new milleneum and beyond to build a Great Society.

NOTE: If someone drops a suggestion and you don't feel it lets keep it civil, OKAY?



  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
how-about-these
Sep 11th 2000
1
RE: how-about-these
d-Best
Sep 11th 2000
2
who gets do decide...
Sep 11th 2000
4
RE: how-about-these
Sep 11th 2000
5
how-about-these
AfricanHerbsman
Sep 12th 2000
8
Query
Sep 12th 2000
12
      all of them
Sep 13th 2000
14
           a delicate balance
Sep 13th 2000
15
                exactly my point
Sep 13th 2000
16
RE: A Great Society
d-Best
Sep 11th 2000
3
Hmmm
Sep 11th 2000
6
The Tao of Social Action, or What Works?
Sep 11th 2000
7
good sht n/m
AfricanHerbsman
Sep 12th 2000
9
The Tao of Compassionate Capitalism
clo
Sep 13th 2000
13
      Opportunities Galore!
Sep 13th 2000
17
daily..
AfricanHerbsman
Sep 12th 2000
10
word IS just that
d-Best
Sep 12th 2000
11

BooDaah
Charter member
32690 posts
Mon Sep-11-00 09:21 AM

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1. "how-about-these"
In response to Reply # 0


          

lets have a society with:
freedom of speech, and religion where we view everyone as being equal..

and mean it this time.

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html
-----------------------------
Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------

  

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d-Best

Mon Sep-11-00 09:25 AM

  
2. "RE: how-about-these"
In response to Reply # 1


          

let's build a society where the main purpose of government is to support life: like a mom

bring people together
keep up health
feed people
pick people up when they're down
scold assholes

BUT a hip mom, one of those mom's that's down, and represents, know what i'm sayin'? Not those triflin' "yo pick up your toys, asshole" or slap you on the mouth moms.

A compassionate, progressive mom.

  

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BooDaah
Charter member
32690 posts
Mon Sep-11-00 09:28 AM

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4. "who gets do decide..."
In response to Reply # 2


          

>scold assholes

who gets scolded?

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html
-----------------------------

  

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illosopher
Charter member
596 posts
Mon Sep-11-00 09:30 AM

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5. "RE: how-about-these"
In response to Reply # 1


          

That would be sweet, i can't lie my own arrogance and hypocrisy is wary of free-speech. I know that sounds crazy cuz i like to hop on the soap box quicker than anyone, but i think some cats don't deserve the right to free speech...

Like cats who spew mad sexual and violent rhetoric especially aimed at children...As well as racist and sexist propaganda...

But at the same time it would safe to our great society made free of these vices...

Lastly, who am i to judge?

The fact that cats like me exist is a perfect reason for free speech.

  

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AfricanHerbsman

Tue Sep-12-00 01:26 AM

  
8. "how-about-these"
In response to Reply # 5


          

>I know that sounds crazy
>cuz i like to hop
>on the soap box quicker
>than anyone, but i think
>some cats don't deserve the
>right to free speech...
>
>Like cats who spew mad sexual
>and violent rhetoric especially aimed
>at children...As well as racist
>and sexist propaganda...

truth..but words that are suppressed gain power from that, like forbidden fruit.
______________________________________

seize your time! - marley/wailers

every lifestyle got a price.. - ras kass

  

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janey
Charter member
123120 posts
Tue Sep-12-00 11:33 AM

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12. "Query"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

when you say "and mean it this time" are you referring to freedom of speech and religion or just to equality?

Cuz I'm with you on equality, and I'm more or less with you on religion, but I'm not following on speech...

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

  

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BooDaah
Charter member
32690 posts
Wed Sep-13-00 09:34 AM

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14. "all of them"
In response to Reply # 12


          

i don't believe we really have freedom of speech.

it only extends to the point at which you become socially unnacceptable (defamation ,threatening in some cases).

the question is does freedom of speech mean you're free to say what you like, or free to say it without repercussion?

ultimately what i meant was: let build a society that truly lives up to the stated intentions.

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html
-----------------------------
Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------

  

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janey
Charter member
123120 posts
Wed Sep-13-00 10:32 AM

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15. "a delicate balance"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

It's hard to find the right balance between the right to free expression and other people's rights that could be infringed by speech.

For example, if there are no limits whatsoever on speech, that would allow commercial speech that contained lies. A tobacco company could advertise that their cigarettes are actually good for you, and there would be no repurcussions. No one could sue them for the lie, because they would claim constitutional protection.

If there are no limits, then someone could print lies about me in the New York Times, and I would have no recourse.

If there are no limits on free expression, then child pornography is acceptable.

See where I'm going? Whenever we talk about our rights, we have to be clear that our rights must be balanced with the rights of others.

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

  

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BooDaah
Charter member
32690 posts
Wed Sep-13-00 11:35 AM

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16. "exactly my point"
In response to Reply # 15


          

if you're going to claim a particular ideology, have an idea of what it really means. case in point is free speech. i really don't think anyone totally wants this (for reasons similar to the one's you've highlighted).

my original answer was a bit glib, but you have brought up a point i agree with.

rather than come up with a catchy phrase or feel-good idea, i would hope that an "ideal" society will have thought out the means upon which it's foundation is set.

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html
-----------------------------
Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------

  

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d-Best

Mon Sep-11-00 09:27 AM

  
3. "RE: A Great Society"
In response to Reply # 0


          

STRICLY VOLUNTARY

people have to JOIN this society.
they can't just rock it by default.
choose on your 21st or somethin'--like a barmitzvah or what Amish kids do

NO political NOTHING. Any effort to legislate any rules promoting, supporting, endorsing, assisting or providing for partisan political processes would be seen as an act of treason against egalitarian living

  

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janey
Charter member
123120 posts
Mon Sep-11-00 01:46 PM

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6. "Hmmm"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I don't know how well this fits in with the topic, but here's something I've been thinking about for a while and this seemed the likeliest place to post it.

I'm one of the older Okayplayers, and I was talking with my boyfriend recently about what I've learned over time that I wish someone had told me when I was younger -- so that I wouldn't have had to figure it out myself and waste a lot of time doing so.

The short list goes like this:

1. Everything changes. There is nothiing -- not a thought, not an emotion, not a thing, that is immune to this. There isn't a single thing in your life that you can prevent from changing, no matter how hard you try.

2. It is human nature to believe that whatever is happening now will always be the case. However, that's just not true (see lesson #1). But when things are going well, we get extra pleasure because we automatically assume that they will always be going well, and that's nice. But when things go badly, we provide ourselves with extra pain because we automatically assume that they will always be this bad, and I would gladly trade the extra pleasure of the first incorrect assumption in order to get rid of the extra pain inherent in the second. Plus, being aware of this tendency helps us stay mindful and in the moment.

So I guess that my Great Society legislation would be mindfulness exercises that give a direct experiential understanding of these lessons.

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

  

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janey
Charter member
123120 posts
Mon Sep-11-00 02:26 PM

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7. "The Tao of Social Action, or What Works?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

This is a long one, but it's worth reading. It's an excerpt from the book How Can I Help? by Ram Dass and Paul Gorman. And it seems to me to be in exactly the spirit in which Illosopher posed the initial question in this thread.

THE WAY OF SOCIAL ACTION

Sometimes it’s enough just to share information with others: the number of nuclear warheads deployed and poised; the wage rates of women compared to men; the unemployment statistics for minorities; how many children starve to death in a single day. We trust these situations to speak for themselves. Injustice will strike others as injustice has struck us. We’re appealing to collective understanding and compassion. It’s Us talking it all over, seeing what We need to do.

But much of the time we come into social action – knocking on a door with a petition, addressing a meeting, writing a pamphlet, showing up at a demonstration, or just talking informally – and we’re just a little self-righteous. We’re convinced we’ve got something to say, something we’re “correct” about. We’ve got our ideology and our scenario: here’s how the situation really is, and the facts to back it up; if you’d take the time to read them, and if we all don’t do this there’s going to be that, so you better get started, and right away, right now.

Some of the time this attitude is blatant; at other times it’s more understated. But at some level what we’re communicating is the feeling that we know, others don’t, and we’ve got to Change Minds. Changing Minds is a tricky game, especially when it’s being fed with urgency and self-righteousness. There’s often an air of superiority in what we say. People instinctively back off. They feel like they’re being told, being “should” upon. Social action, they understand intuitively, ought to be fully voluntary if it’s to have power and endurance. But we’re not quite leaving them enough room when we set about trying to change their minds. We don’t have the inclusiveness, the steadiness, the real willingness to listen that is critical at the outset of any action. It’s not quite Us – it’s this one trying to move that one.

In that environment, concerned as we are with results, we call on tactics of persuasion, appealing to states of mind that get people going. We begin to manipulate consciousness. Play to anger. Go for fear. There’s always guilt. These basic states of mind are always lurking about, looking to be fed. They find plenty of nourishment in the world of social action: anger at oppression, guilt at being “better off,” fear of violence and the greater power of others. They make a good case for themselves, pointing to all the provocation and evidence right here at hand.

Sometimes these feelings get us going – just the kick in the pants we may need. And we can keep them in check, in fact work with them. We can turn anger at injustice into cool, steady resolve. We can flip fear of war into greater reverence for life. We can find in feelings of guilt a call to greater moral sensitivity and alertness.

Yet left to themselves, fear, anger, and guilt are unwholesome states of mind. How many of us have them fully in control in our private lives? They pull us into a cycle of reactivity and feed on themselves. We begin to lose sight of the conditions that might have provoked them in the first place. In addition, they tend to be addictive and toxic. History is filled with examples of how these attitudes, which initially may have stirred people to action, went on to poison and destroy well intentioned movements for social change. These are powerful states of mind we’re playing with. Intentionally set in motion, their effect is usually incendiary.

Moreover, these states of mind blur our judgment and blind us to tactics that might be more reliable sources of action. Caught up in these emotions, we lose our timing and make mistakes. Our hearts grow cold; we turn people off. We’re too worked up to hear our own inner voice, let alone trust anyone else’s. What benefit in that?

They also prevent us from calling upon deeper human virtues that often move us all to act. In anger, we may lose sight of love. In fear, we may sacrifice trust and courage. In guilt, we may deny self-worth and obstruct inspiration. Do we really want to lose access to all these? If we really care about social change, can we afford to sacrifice such sources of commitment and strength? Are we serious or not?

We need to explore ways to reach one another and get started that don’t set us off on the wrong foot. The handbill that announces the first meeting of a local parents group… the fund raising letter that seeks support for famine relief … the mood of the crowd as it awaits the outset of the march … the way you phrase a question to a city councilwoman who’s a little astonished at all these people who’ve shown up at her office … these aren’t incidental moments or trivial matters of presentation or public relations. We’re communicating the spirit behind the initiative. That’s usually the message people react to first of all, if not most of all. What spirit will it be? How will we come forward? We can share information and conviction: here’s our passion, our sense of urgency. But if “people don’t like to be should upon, they’d rather discover than be told,” then our invitation will probably be most effective when it communicates trust and respect. And honesty as well: We have to stay conscious of the ways in which our own lives still lack integrity and consistency. We’re strongest when we act from what we have in common. We usually have to listen for that before we can really begin to act. Even the slightest bit of self-righteousness can get in the way.


Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

  

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AfricanHerbsman

Tue Sep-12-00 01:31 AM

  
9. "good sht n/m"
In response to Reply # 7


          

______________________________________

seize your time! - marley/wailers

every lifestyle got a price.. - ras kass

  

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clo

Wed Sep-13-00 09:26 AM

  
13. "The Tao of Compassionate Capitalism"
In response to Reply # 7


          

OK, so I loved that post, but I think there needs to be some recognition of the fact that our system is pretty embedded right now, and it may not be totally wrong. For those of you have been reading the McDonald's is Satan post, I think a lot of what I have to say about this goes along with it. I think democracy is great. I think capitlasim sucks, and I think both only work as theory. However, the application of both in our society has been a mainly social experiment yet to reach any conclusion. Money is here to stay. F what you heard, or want to believe. Let's work with it. What I don't get is why it's not possible to change the American Dream, and with it America itself. Let's take the time to teach the people around us about ourselves, let's make America a community. It's too hard? bullshit. It's not human nature? Maybe, but come hard with scientific proof of some sort, or don't come at all. I want to know. And if I'm not wrong, let's start some shit...
clo

  

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janey
Charter member
123120 posts
Wed Sep-13-00 11:44 AM

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17. "Opportunities Galore!"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

We can offer you the OkayActivist Voter Registration Drive, begins 9/22.
(http://www.okayplayer.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=847&forum=DCForumID1&omm=0)

You can help form and propound the ideals of the OkayActivist Fund. (http://www.okayplayer.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=968&forum=DCForumID1&omm=0)

You can join us in sponsoring Dove in her AIDS walk (9/24) or in joining the walk itself. (http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/DCForumID1/833.html)

You can lend support to those who are seriously searching for new strategies for making a difference. (Look at http://www.okayplayer.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=977&forum=DCForumID1&omm=0)

You can ask for support and ideas for your own projects. You can publicly make a real commitment to making a difference on "What WOULD you do for a Klondike Bar" (http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/DCForumID1/979.html) or you can report to us on where your heart lies and what works for you on "What Are We? Part II" (http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/DCForumID1/941.html)

All of this takes place on OkayActivist. It's not all talk.

I think that talking theoretical possibilities through is an important, in fact an integral part, of what we do here. But there really is a live side to Activist.

P.S. Now that I can create links, I'm extra dangerous.

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

  

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AfricanHerbsman

Tue Sep-12-00 01:40 AM

  
10. "daily.."
In response to Reply # 0


          


try to balance repeated rituals that prop your mental well-being (and that are largely selfish in essence) with attending to well-being of at least one other person whom your not dependant on/of..truly attempt to love your neighbours' as you do you/yours.
______________________________________

seize your time! - marley/wailers

every lifestyle got a price.. - ras kass

  

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d-Best

Tue Sep-12-00 11:26 AM

  
11. "word IS just that"
In response to Reply # 10


          

i've been starting a comparative constitutions study. if you look around, they all reflect the values of their greater society (netherlands, germany), or of who wrote them (in the case of US and Japan, for example)

Japan (written by Americans who believe in US-mythology) wrote alot of progressive stuff. I should drop some quotes.

The point is NOT for some too-conservative idiot to jump on me and be like "japan's stupit, so you're wrong"

i don't care about those who type that

i'm talking about values.

we don't have a value that prohibits the gov't from f'ing with people. some constitutions make mention of this.


Crawley and Wicca... an ye harm none, do what thou wilt

represent

don't let people make money off of exploiting each other. Don't let people make money off of someone else's pain.

something about exploitive work--that kind of shit, where blood and money are one and the same.

  

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