Printer-friendly copy Email this topic to a friend
Lobby Okay Activist Archives topic #21244

Subject: "Does separatism=racism?" This topic is locked.
Previous topic | Next topic
Phraktal

Thu Sep-21-00 01:23 PM

  
"Does separatism=racism?"


          

Okay, I won't lie, I'm a separatist. I believe that until you can repair your own malfuctions you have to deal exclusively with self. Everybody on this planet has issues and having to deal with people who don't share a somewhat common experience only confuses those issues more.

When I say separatist, I don't mean like Apartheid or the conditions that spawned the civil rights movement. I mean an agreed upon division that encourages independence. We could co-operate, but business, education, housing, etc. would be under our control.

In most areas of this country there are distinct lines drawn between various ethnic communities. America does practice a subdued form of separatism already. I can't deny the advances that blacks have made in this country, but all too often I feel that the reources we have in ourselves are distributed unevenly. The blacks with the "good jobs" and "good education" always seem to end up in the suburbs out of the reach of the ghetto.

I can't deny the fact that to some of us, this is the american dream. However, if we developed more useful relationships within ourselves we could be more self-sufficient. Am I wrong?

Let it be known that I feel no anger towards anyone who has no desire to do me harm. Everyone has the potential to be either friend or foe. I don't consider myself a racist either. I don't hate anyone based on the color of skin or religion. I just believe that we all need to concentrate on healing ourselves before we can deal with others.

So, do you think I'm crazy? Are my ideas the same as the redneck in Alabama who thinks all blacks should go back to Africa? Let me know, for real! If you think we have something good going the way it is now, school me! I'm open for discussion.

......commence flaming



  

Printer-friendly copy | Top


Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
....are you pondering what I'm pondering?
Sep 21st 2000
1
We are de facto separated now
Sep 22nd 2000
2
RE: We are de facto separated now
Sep 22nd 2000
4
RE: We are de facto separated now
Phraktal
Sep 22nd 2000
5
      if you're serious
Sep 22nd 2000
8
      very serious
Phraktal
Sep 22nd 2000
12
           How serious?
Sep 22nd 2000
13
      Japan
Sep 22nd 2000
10
           ask the Koreans living there ...
Sep 22nd 2000
17
i agree 100%
Sep 22nd 2000
3
we separated the issues.....
Sep 22nd 2000
6
RE: we separated the issues.....
Phraktal
Sep 22nd 2000
7
      RE: we separated the issues.....
Sep 22nd 2000
9
Simply put
Sep 22nd 2000
11
that's very selfish of you
soyful
Sep 22nd 2000
14
RE: that's very selfish of you
Phraktal
Sep 22nd 2000
15
How is seperatism possible?
Sep 22nd 2000
16
RE: How is seperatism possible?
Itrans
Sep 22nd 2000
18
      RE: How is seperatism possible?
d-Best
Sep 25th 2000
19
RE: Does separatism=racism?
Sep 25th 2000
20
men have a hard time multi-tasking ...
Sep 26th 2000
27
      ya know?!?! n/m
Sep 26th 2000
29
Thanks
Phraktal
Sep 25th 2000
21
elitism?
Sep 25th 2000
22
      RE: elitism?
Phraktal
Sep 25th 2000
23
           RE: elitism?
Sep 25th 2000
24
           RE: elitism?
Sep 26th 2000
28
                RE: elitism?
Phraktal
Sep 26th 2000
30
                     Seperation from status quo
Sep 27th 2000
31
RE: Does separatism=racism?
diosa
Sep 26th 2000
25
race matters
Sep 26th 2000
26

StirsDsoul
Charter member
27168 posts
Thu Sep-21-00 02:28 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
1. "....are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


I agree somewhat....just don't really feel it's all that feasible....part of what increases fear and prejudice is the inability to relate to another group. What happens when we do decide we "dun got ouwa shit tuhgedda!"? Do we reassimilate into a society which has found a way to get along WITHOUT us?
This is kinda similar to what I found in Nicaragua..(Bluefields) They are pretty much isolated socially/economically with a very distinct cultural identity.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

k_orr
Charter member
80197 posts
Fri Sep-22-00 03:25 AM

Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
2. "We are de facto separated now"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

What you are calling for is to turn off all the water and light to our neighborhoods and towns.

It's not as if black folks are really mixed/well represented on all the square acreage in this country. We definitely concentrate in some areas. Often poor whites, mexicans, and asians do not live in our areas.

I don't believe in separatism. I do believe in Black business though, and steering some of our dollars towards employing our own, on our own terms.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

    
StirsDsoul
Charter member
27168 posts
Fri Sep-22-00 03:57 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
4. "RE: We are de facto separated now"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          


I agree there are practical reasons why separatism wouldn't work at this point....***how many of us are willing to pull out our financial holdings from all the current institutions and businesses

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

    
Phraktal

Fri Sep-22-00 04:14 AM

  
5. "RE: We are de facto separated now"
In response to Reply # 2


          

>What you are calling for is
>to turn off all the
>water and light to our
>neighborhoods and towns.

How do you obtain the knowledge to run a power company? Is it really above and beyond the abilities of black people to learn things like this? The Ancient Egyptians had a plumbing system. Not to diss but this sounds like an excuse to me.


>
>It's not as if black folks
>are really mixed/well represented on
>all the square acreage in
>this country. We definitely
>concentrate in some areas.
>Often poor whites, mexicans, and
>asians do not live in
>our areas.


>
>I don't believe in separatism.
>I do believe in Black
>business though, and steering some
>of our dollars towards employing
>our own, on our own
>terms.

I hear that. I just believe black people would be more focused if we acknowledged and embraced our own communal needs first.







  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

        
k_orr
Charter member
80197 posts
Fri Sep-22-00 05:18 AM

Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
8. "if you're serious"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

>>What you are calling for is
>>to turn off all the
>>water and light to our
>>neighborhoods and towns.
>
>How do you obtain the knowledge
>to run a power company?

It's not just the knowledge behind generators and turbines. Anyone who has taken the first semester of engineering physics can tell you that.

Worst case scenario, we mine coal, refine it, burn it in furnaces, heat up water, generates steam, rotates turbines, which spins around a coiled magnet. That's electricity in a nutshell.

But where do we get the turbines, where do we get the factories that build generators, where do we get the mines for the metal, the chemical factories, the power lines, the towers, the wiring....

Black folks know how to do things. I know plenty of educated (formal and non-formal) cats. But the knowledge is not the key. It is access to capital and resources. Black folks work hard, but I don't see generations of our people for centuries trying to recreate 20 th century America for free.

When you read the last page of the final call you look at "What the Muslims Want", and they are asking for those kinds of things, land, mines, and other natural resources.

The alternative to this, is to opt out of our highly technological society, leaving things like mechanized agriculture and modern medicine behind. The new Republic of Nubia, would probably look a whole lot like the Nubia of old.

> Is it really above
>and beyond the abilities of
>black people to learn things
>like this? The Ancient
>Egyptians had a plumbing system.

They didn't have waste water treatment facilities, flushing toilets, real sewage control. The modern egyptians don't have that. One of my ex-gals was egyptian and an engineer. She used to kill me with the details of the lack of infrastructure in Egypt.

> Not to diss but
>this sounds like an excuse
>to me.

It's not the knowledge. For Black Americans to create their own nation within a nation, a truly self-sufficient nation with the level of convenience that most black folks take for granted, is an insurmountable task. (at least if we do it from scratch).

Your idea is romantic, but it hasn't been thought out, or thoroughly presented here.

If we go by what the Dead Prez(who really seem to want a slice of an American pie, not their own mill, orchard, and ovens) want, food, clothing and shelter, those basic necessities are hard to rock from scratch.

But maybe there is a movement within these paragraphs. Maybe we could do without the ac's and bmw's, soft cotton, plentiful food, et cetera. It is concievable that we relearn the technologies of old, and exist in a modified state. But the feeling I get when I talk to cats who want their own nation, is that they really want what America already offers them. Albeit the path for the colored man is far more arduous than those of the majority.

>I hear that. I just
>believe black people would be
>more focused if we acknowledged
>and embraced our own communal
>needs first.

It's not as if we don't do that. We have our own black pages, we have our churches, barber shops, eateries... But in terms of heavy industry, R&D, and those things that would make us competitors of our white counterparts, we don't have the access to capital. Often when black folks really make it (multi-millionaires), they don't get together and figure out some big plans.

Our educated brethren, myself included, get their knowledge, and then sell their skill sets to others, in order to make the business owners's pockets fat. Big deal a basketball player makes 500 million over 10 years. How much did the owners of the team make? How much did the people who make the products he endorse make? Master P makes the fortune 500. Great, but how many people is he employing for the long term. It's one thing to own a studio, it's another thing to be building mixing boards and amplifiers.

Maybe I have a major manufacturing bent, but I know it is a sure fire way to employ folks who have been to college (as designers and engineers) as well as those who haven't been to college (as technicians).

Now when you have a major industry in a black section of town, then you can open your high class soul food restaurants, your fast food caribbean restaurants, your art galleries, your clubs, your black history museums. When you have that kind of power in your own community, others can become your suppliers. When it comes time for candidates to get elected, or when you want to open a new facility, you got folks bending over backwards to give you land and tax breaks. You can get your technology classes into the local community college, you can endow a chair at the university.

But until folks who want their own separate nations start really talking about what it takes to run your community, it's all just talk.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

            
Phraktal

Fri Sep-22-00 06:55 AM

  
12. "very serious"
In response to Reply # 8


          


>Black folks know how to do
>things. I know plenty
>of educated (formal and non-formal)
>cats. But the knowledge
>is not the key.
>It is access to capital
>and resources.

Collectively, black people are not poor. Once we recongnize what resources we need we can set up a plan on how to obtain them. I'm not denying the fact that my ideas are in the minority. It's true my ideas are romantic, but so were MLK's, Malcolm X's and even to an extent Farrakhan's (and no I'm not comapring myself to them). The simple fact is that since we've obtained "equality" in this country we don't have access to the same resources as others. We don't own land, or manufacture or control any raw materials. Would we be in this position if we would've maintained an agenda that catered exclusively to our needs?


>It's not the knowledge. For
>Black Americans to create their
>own nation within a nation,
>a truly self-sufficient nation with
>the level of convenience that
>most black folks take for
>granted, is an insurmountable task.
> (at least if we
>do it from scratch).

That's true. From scratch we would have to make many sacrifices. The majority of people don't feel it's necessary to be self-sufficient. In essence I probably am being unrealistic in my perceptions (blame it on the wine).

>
>Your idea is romantic, but it
>hasn't been thought out, or
>thoroughly presented here.

Actually, In the initial post I was trying to determine (by asking all of you) if I was being racist by being a separatist. I admit that I'm unequipped to lay down a grand scheme to make a black nation.

>But maybe there is a movement
>within these paragraphs. Maybe
>we could do without the
>ac's and bmw's, soft cotton,
>plentiful food, et cetera.
>It is concievable that we
>relearn the technologies of old,
>and exist in a modified
>state. But the feeling
>I get when I talk
>to cats who want their
>own nation, is that they
>really want what America already
>offers them. Albeit the
>path for the colored man
>is far more arduous than
>those of the majority.

True, true...


>But until folks who want their
>own separate nations start really
>talking about what it takes
>to run your community, it's
>all just talk.

Indeed, but it has to start somewhere...agreed?





  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                
StirsDsoul
Charter member
27168 posts
Fri Sep-22-00 07:19 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
13. "How serious?"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

how many of us Are really willing to relocate if another situation presented itself.....
These are some of the ?'s i've asked myself constantly...most people aren't ready to leave the landof opportunity for opportunity elsewhere....much less for one which is yet in it's raw stages...ie....Africa, Central/S.America

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

        
k_orr
Charter member
80197 posts
Fri Sep-22-00 05:22 AM

Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
10. "Japan"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

Not that the Japanese don't have lots of problems, but they as a nation have worked together, and became a G-8 nation within 50-70 years.

So there is light, we just need to become hard core ethnocentrists like them...right?

k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

            
el_rey
Charter member
5626 posts
Fri Sep-22-00 08:41 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
17. "ask the Koreans living there ..."
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

they'll show you the underbelly of Japanese ethnocentrism ...

there's always gonna be SOMEONE catching a raw deal from nationalist politics.

love and respect,
El Rey


http://www.mumia2000.org
http://www.mumia.org


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
who are you









really

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

Binlahab
Charter member
182925 posts
Fri Sep-22-00 03:57 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
3. "i agree 100%"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

however...(maybe not 100%, more like 76%)

the community is not prepared to stand on its own right now...like K Orr said...we need utilities and water etc etc...things that are beyond our control or reach....I wonder what the facts are about minority ownership in the utilities field...I bet its minute, if not non existent...

on sabbatical.

does it really matter?

wonder what bin's doing?
http://i.imgur.com/phECCMp.jpg

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

StirsDsoul
Charter member
27168 posts
Fri Sep-22-00 04:25 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
6. "we separated the issues....."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

....dissected the original question.....separatism=racism.....segregation/isolation had/has been one of the most powerful tools of racism historically..

But,you stir up an even more interesting question,internet aside, how many of us currently live a life which pretty much qualifies as socially segregation?
Ok, you have friends/co-workers of another "race" but how much do you really know about this person's culture/heritage/etc...Basically,in the spirit of the topic....be honest, are you socially segregated?
I attended the same historically college as Phrak....and I don't know if he ever stopped to think it about but we were REALLY isolated....I mean if you didn't see a white professor or faculty member on a regular basis you could go pretty much four years in a little black cocoon.

Just HOW integrated are we,anyway....?

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

    
Phraktal

Fri Sep-22-00 04:55 AM

  
7. "RE: we separated the issues....."
In response to Reply # 6


          

.....segregation/isolation had/has been
>one of the most powerful
>tools of racism historically..

That's true. Especially when you're DEPENDENT on another race to provide basic neccesities. Without that dependency, there would be no basis for racism. The POWER over another race is gone. There would be hate, but active community cripling racism, nah, I doubt it.

Basically,in the spirit of the
>topic....be honest, are you socially
>segregated?

Socially? Yeah. As far as interpersonal relationships go Hell YES!! But as far as business relationships and things like providing food, shelter, etc. Nope. At this point it's impossible to be segregated as far as thats concerned. With work, however it might be a viable option (that is, if everyone saw it my way).


> Just HOW
>integrated are we,anyway....?

VERY! There are more aspects to life than just convenient social relationships. As stated in another post. Who provides you with running water and power? What about the clothes you wear or the car you drive? Just because you don't SEE these people doesn't mean they don't have an effect on your day to day existence.







  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

        
StirsDsoul
Charter member
27168 posts
Fri Sep-22-00 05:20 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
9. "RE: we separated the issues....."
In response to Reply # 7


  

          


...believe me i've played out this scenario in my head for a while.....we've probably even talked about it offline....fortunately or otherwise the net provides a measure of anonymity...economically this provides another option....as far as utilities...unless we were a totally seperate entity/municipality/nation etc....we would be subject to some of the um.......stickiest red tape ever. It's all about the money....how would we manage to be "granted" all this independence? Reparations......yeah maybe we could pool our collective reparation claims......and

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

Oakley
Charter member
7810 posts
Fri Sep-22-00 06:12 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
11. "Simply put"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Seperatism spawns Racism!

___________________________________
"WASP of the year: even if he isn�t a WASP, Oakley. Sailing? Check. In a yacht club? Check. Used the term �summer� as a verb instead of a noun? You betcha!" -thejerseytornado

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

soyful

Fri Sep-22-00 07:37 AM

  
14. "that's very selfish of you"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Seperation is a selfish act. You will fight for your race and only your race while others suffer. You're not like those white power rednecks though. They incite hatred. You just incite apathy.
I'm really not to sure what you plan to accomplish through this act of seperation. I'm not even sure what you want to seperate yourself from. If its seperating yourself from helping anyone whose not black, I think thats very coldhearted of you. If you're just trying to seperate yourself from white culture, be careful. Realize what that truely means. I'm white but I'm all about killing whitey. You just need to know what it means.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

    
Phraktal

Fri Sep-22-00 07:54 AM

  
15. "RE: that's very selfish of you"
In response to Reply # 14


          

>Seperation is a selfish act. You
>will fight for your race
>and only your race while
>others suffer.

While others suffer? How will they suffer? Please explain.

You're not like
>those white power rednecks though.
>They incite hatred. You just
>incite apathy.

Incite apathy? How? Apathy is encouraging your race to become self-sufficient? I don't understand your logic.


> I'm really not
>to sure what you plan
>to accomplish through this act
>of seperation.

Read the post again.


If you're
>just trying to seperate yourself
>from white culture, be careful.
>Realize what that truely means.

Hmmmmmm.....definately something to think about.

> I'm white but I'm
>all about killing whitey. You
>just need to know what
>it means.

I'm black and I'm NOT about killing whitey. See how alike we are.

peace...





  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

el_rey
Charter member
5626 posts
Fri Sep-22-00 08:34 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
16. "How is seperatism possible?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Especially when the problems facing "Black America" have come about IN RELATION to the world (and predominantly the white paradigm) that they live in? How is seperation possible when we must all interact with each other in multi-cultural Amerikkka. If the ROOT of the problem is not addressed, then the problems will persist. The ROOT is not the FACT that black and white share a common geography ... its that white people can't stop being racist in the face of all this diversity. It's that we all haven't made the sincere effort to learn each other's languages, to be versed in each other's histories, to see the world through each other's eyes.

Basically seperatism depends on one's ability to isolate onesself from others deemed "outside" ones' group. It's a nationalist move, and to be nationalist is to create community through exclusions. But how are these exclusions determined? So often, nationalist/seperatist politics hold a very narrow definition of "blackness" that is often exclusionary of non-heterosexual people, biracial people, and occasionaly people of African decent that live outside of the U.S. So the quesiton becomes: who do you want to seperate? Who gets to determine this? What about seperations within ethnic groups? What about two-tiered "class" systems based on gender, religion, and sexual preference? And if you decide to "work out" these differences within a given group, why not envision the possibility of working them out within a larger social group?

Just food for thought.

I also gotta say that I'm all for seperatist politics in some situations over others: S. Africa, for example. I just think within a country like the US, it's not at all practical to enact seperatist politics without reinforcing the larger social/political/economic/ethnic problems within the larger context (multicultural America).

love and respect,
El Rey


http://www.mumia2000.org
http://www.mumia.org


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
who are you









really

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

    
Itrans

Fri Sep-22-00 07:27 PM

  
18. "RE: How is seperatism possible?"
In response to Reply # 16


          

More than trying to address the last post I am kinda just saying my peice on the whole thing. I am 1/2 white. In the context of the last post, where does that put me? This country is quite integrated & to try & gain independence from within it would not only weaken its structure politcally/ economically/ socially by drawing a line right down middle, but it would cause alack of union, which, by the way, started the civil war. You make yourself very vulnerable & who wouldn't love to takea shot at america? Japan? Russia? CHINA?!? Those fools are ready for war on more than a militaary level. Right now is the worst possible time to make a move like that. Besides all that mess, isn't it about who makes good dicisions on an individual basis that determines the overall result nationally... globally? To me, everything is an issue of the ability for humans to make right decisions in life in order to affect the world for its total betterment. Here is the problem: POWER CORRUPTS. That is why the most powerful groups, wether they be political, economic or otherwise, are also the most corrupt. I'm not saying ALL, but the majority. Every empire in history has been corrupted. Why? That is who we are as humans. The reason I am on this tangent for anyone I may have confused is because to separate yourself is to claim sovreignty of your state & your affairs. You do this & you will eventually see the same thing happen to your state or empire that happened to Rome, Egypt, Greece, Macedonians, &, if you read the Bible, Israel, Babylon... on & on & on. America will not stand forever either. And its reign will be even shorter if it is divided by people who arrogantly feel they can just step out of the "man" suit & begin a perfect society or even a stronger one for that matter. I speak all of this in humbleness & hopefully some agree in wisdom. May there be PEACE.
Trans

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

        
d-Best

Mon Sep-25-00 08:41 AM

  
19. "RE: How is seperatism possible?"
In response to Reply # 18


          

in theory, it is all nice and good to withdraw into the self, before approach the world

Mohammed withdrew into the desert to regain strength

this is true.

However, beyond the self--the individual, this is not possible

this is not reality

because in our world, we cannot cut the land-space into equal squares, and put these cats here and these cats there as it applies to "ethnicity"

i disagree with you there

furthermore, the only way we make progressions, or expand each other is through interaction--this is a human reality proved every moment of every day.

What gets a white supremacist to chill other than hangin' with some cats 24-7, what gets a 50 year old racist to chill other than hangin' with cats at work, or his neighbors or whatever.

This is just reality. Interaction = representation


Now if you're talking a different kind of separatism--as in all the people who are down ideologically, get together, move somewhere, say milwaukee, or wherever and create a great society together.

then that's what's up

but that has nothing to do with ethnicity, ancestry or genetics. That's about what's in the heart.



  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

Hot_Damali
Charter member
8959 posts
Mon Sep-25-00 08:47 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
20. "RE: Does separatism=racism?"
In response to Reply # 0


          


I just believe
>that we all need to
>concentrate on healing ourselves before
>we can deal with others.

I get where you're coming from but this logic is flawed. Healing and self-discovery/elevation is a life-long process...it's never finished...so when does the dealing with others come in? You will never be a finished product until you die. All human beings have the capacity to concentrate on self AND help others at the same time...it's called multi-tasking Our brains are limitless...

If that's not possible than how is it that I could breastfeed my infant, talk on the phone and cook dinner all at the same time

Damali

Have you clicked on a banner today?

Underground Railroad hosted by Jay Smooth (okayplayer JSmooth995)
The best hiphop show you will ever hear!
Featuring DJs 3D, EmSki, and Monk One
Saturdays Midnite-2am
WBAI 99.5 FM New York
live stream on www.hiphopmusic.com

BlackFilmFestAmerica
The Independent Movie Tour
NY, Newark, Chicago, DC, Atlanta
www.goseeblackmovies.com
ONLY UNTIL OCT 1ST!!!
Featuring "Personals" with Malik Yoba and Stacy Dash
"Cold Feet" with Chenoa Maxwell (Hav Plenty)

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

    
el_rey
Charter member
5626 posts
Tue Sep-26-00 05:42 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
27. "men have a hard time multi-tasking ..."
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

Maybe that's why their the one's behind so much of the strongest seperatist rhetoric. !!!

love and respect,
El Rey


http://www.mumia2000.org
http://www.mumia.org


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
who are you









really

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

        
Hot_Damali
Charter member
8959 posts
Tue Sep-26-00 07:34 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
29. "ya know?!?! n/m"
In response to Reply # 27


          

Have you clicked on a banner today?


  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

Phraktal

Mon Sep-25-00 10:54 AM

  
21. "Thanks"
In response to Reply # 0


          

First off, thanks to everyone for the insight as to why you don't think separatism is a viable option. It was really interesting reading some of the threads.

Some people seem to think that when a people separate, they lose their capacity to make choices. I never intended a "mandatory sentence" for "all black people" to join a separatist group. Simply, if you feel you'll benefit from it then fine. If not? that's your choice to stay where you are.

I didn't really want to get into details about my ideas on separatism. I do however believe it is something that may be beyond the average persons grasp. This is only because there are not many people who share my ideas.

There are some groups in this country that I would consider separatist. These people own and operate their own schools. Develop their own curriculum, and own and operate the businesses in their communities. Personally, I feel this is necessary in the black community. Our efforts need to be focused upon common goals, and common agendas. I mean, what is black peoples agenda anyway?

Like I said before, the responses are cool. Since no one (maybe one) has said anything about it, I guess I'm not being a racist huh?



  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

    
k_orr
Charter member
80197 posts
Mon Sep-25-00 11:24 AM

Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
22. "elitism?"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          


> I didn't really want to
>get into details about my
>ideas on separatism. I
>do however believe it is
>something that may be beyond
>the average persons grasp.

What do you mean by this?

k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

        
Phraktal

Mon Sep-25-00 11:55 AM

  
23. "RE: elitism?"
In response to Reply # 22


          

didn't mean for it to come out like that.

Some people think we've "gotten over the hump", that's all. Some don't see anything wrong with the current conditions. Those are the people who can't "grasp" the concept of business ownership, or controlling our school curriculum, or pride in your own heritage for that matter.

It wasn't aimed at anyone in this thread...

As for me being an elitist? Hmmmmm... maybe a little

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

            
k_orr
Charter member
80197 posts
Mon Sep-25-00 01:29 PM

Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
24. "RE: elitism?"
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

>didn't mean for it to come
>out like that.
>
>Some people think we've "gotten over
>the hump", that's all.
>Some don't see anything wrong
>with the current conditions.
>Those are the people who
>can't "grasp" the concept of
>business ownership, or controlling our
>school curriculum, or pride in
>your own heritage for that
>matter.

I feel that for sure. But no doubt some people have gotten over the intellectual hump, but the myriad institutional factors hold them back.

>As for me being an elitist?
> Hmmmmm... maybe a little
>

I don't get it. It's okay to be an elitist?

Maybe I'm slow, but isn't the problem with current movements for unity is that we have elitists?

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

            
el_rey
Charter member
5626 posts
Tue Sep-26-00 05:52 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
28. "RE: elitism?"
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

>Some don't see anything wrong
>with the current conditions.
>Those are the people who
>can't "grasp" the concept of
>business ownership, or controlling our
>school curriculum, or pride in
>your own heritage for that
>matter.

But are these things necessarily restricted to being confined within a particular ethnic group? I won't lie, I think that white people aren't at all up for the hard work involved in decolonizing themselves to the point where they can have honest and uncluttered human relationships with the people they've dominated over for hundreds of years. But ... I'VE HEARD IT'S POSSIBLE. I just heard of a multi-ethnic group (mostly black and white) that traveled the Middle Passage together as a sort of healing process. They seemed very clear that they were going to be brutally honest with each other in terms of what came up for them along the trip. To me, this says that their are actually people that are willing to TAKE THE RISK of healing racism's wounds and not just running from them. I'm not (completely) saying that seperatism is running from anything, but I do think that what you've spoken of here (controll of schools/ideology, businesses, etc.) can be done across the strictb boundaries that have divided us for so long. In fact, I believe that freedom can ONLY come from this inter-relation and WORK.

Like I said in my earlier post: we need to put away our fears and control games, and DO THE WORK of learning each other's languages and histories. We need to understand that these histories -- and thus our very identities and lives -- are completely intertwined. We need each other if we're going to make any progress.


love and respect,
El Rey


http://www.mumia2000.org
http://www.mumia.org


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
who are you









really

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                
Phraktal

Tue Sep-26-00 12:50 PM

  
30. "RE: elitism?"
In response to Reply # 28


          


>Like I said in my earlier
>post: we need to put
>away our fears and control
>games, and DO THE WORK
>of learning each other's languages
>and histories. We need to
>understand that these histories --
>and thus our very identities
>and lives -- are completely
>intertwined. We need each other
>if we're going to make
>any progress.

I understand where you're coming from. The basis of my argument lies in the fact that some resources are unevenly distributed. When I was in school I learned american/european history. Most of the people who owned businesses in my neigborhood didn't look like me. The images on television didn't represent me either. The books I was assigned to read for school lacked relevance for me. I've been learning other peoples history all my life. Only in my junior year of high school did I decide to learn about me! I took the initiative a found a whole new world that I was NEVER exposed to in school. I know so many people who don't take that initiative, who don't know ANYTHING about themselves.

I see your point El Rey, but maybe it's me. I'm stubborn. I can't bring myself to believe that the current social conditions are beneficial to a healthy black psyche. The things I presented (schools, business, land ownership) are some of the basic necessities of contemporary existence. For blacks to obtain these things on a mass scale can only be helpful to a community. To obtain these things on a mass scale would require a FOCUSED agenda - a sort of mental SEPARATION from the status quo. An acknowledgement of the fact that we can help ourselves, and help ourselves BIG TIME.

The melting pot idea is good though. I'm down with the Rainbow Coalition too. It's just that all too often black people get stuck where the sun don't shine.

peace...






  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                    
el_rey
Charter member
5626 posts
Wed Sep-27-00 03:15 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
31. "Seperation from status quo"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          


>I can't
>bring myself to believe that
>the current social conditions are
>beneficial to a healthy black
>psyche.

They're most certainly not! But then again, they're not beneficial for a healthy psyche for ANYONE! (so-called "white" people as well). White supremacy cripples us all and needs to be destroyed by all justice-loving people.

>The things I
>presented (schools, business, land ownership)
>are some of the basic
>necessities of contemporary existence.
>For blacks to obtain these
>things on a mass scale
>can only be helpful to
>a community. To obtain
>these things on a mass
>scale would require a FOCUSED
>agenda - a sort of
>mental SEPARATION from the status
>quo.

Absolutely: a separation from THE STATUS QUO! I think you are somewhat correctly associating the Status Quo (white supremacy) with the "white" individuals who perpetuate it, but I still believe that nothing substantial can be done until a radical colaition of ALL people pose a serious threat to the status quo, and consciously do the WORK to step outside the limiting and brutal conventions of the Eurocentric paradigm.

Will this happen anytime soon? Very doubtful. "White" people (and many people of color for that matter) are too caught up in perpetuating the status quo to pose a real challange to it. But as a radical Anglo-American, I have to believe it is possible. Perhaps it's blind hope, but I'd rather hope and continue doing the hard work of decolonizing myself than waiting for the revolution to happen around me.

love and respect,
El Rey


http://www.mumia2000.org
http://www.mumia.org

Sure it's old news, but it can never be said enough: ""Dundee" was originally used to refer to the texture of certain fabrics. If an article was made of vintage leather, raw denim, canvas, hemp, rough linen or cotton, it had the potential to be classified as some "Dundee" or rugged shit. It comes from Crocodile Dundee but it ain't got nuffin' to do with Paul Hoagan. It's more about a lifestyle now. It's about doing what you gotta do to survive in the wilderness. It's about the balance between total control and wreckless abandon. The Dundee approach to life is adventure. It's about taming this beast of a world and the apparel needed to do so." - Black Thought

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
who are you









really

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

diosa

Tue Sep-26-00 05:13 AM

  
25. "RE: Does separatism=racism?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

this topic really brings up so many issues for me as a person of mixed "race".

two issues most significantly:

how can we talk about separation according to race when it is clear that the concept of race is a social construction. differences in ethnicity/culture (which exist naturally and are what make the world interesting) do not equal multiple races. we are all members of the human race.

also, although i agree with the brother who spoke of separation to develop knowledge of self, proximity (and dialog) are keys to developing comprehension between all people. separatism sidesteps the true problem which is a lack of understanding. imo, of course.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

    
k_orr
Charter member
80197 posts
Tue Sep-26-00 05:38 AM

Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
26. "race matters"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          


>how can we talk about separation
>according to race when it
>is clear that the concept
>of race is a social
>construction.

That is precisely why you would separate this society. Because some members of this society have created this idea of race and they hold it dear to their hearts, minds, wallets, and property.

It's not like we're talking about a good biological reason to separate, but rather a good social/political/economic reason.

Furthermore, this whole contention that race is a social construction and nothing more blinds the issue. The fact that race is a social construction and not a biological/genetic fact is inconsequential to people who are routinely and systematically shut out by this society because of their "race".

carry on,
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

Lobby Okay Activist Archives topic #21244 Previous topic | Next topic
Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.25
Copyright © DCScripts.com