My question is, how can we create true equality, on any lines, without first reversing the pre-existing inequality?
When you wrong a friend, what do you do? You humble yourself.
So how can we make ethno-melanin equality in the US without first "enslaving" at least to some degree, the white establishment for a spell--not too long, but a symbolic, say, 10-20 years? Creating "black privilege" just as pervasive as white privilege.
--flip everything upside down, thus re-establishing balance in the world?
How can gender equality come without reversing the gender roles first? Having dad be the stay home, boo-boo kissing, haloween costume sewing, out-putting, bored housewife, and mom be the bread winning, sex demanding, abuse asshole?
Think about it. When you wrong someone, you are over-the-top toward them to make up for it. You humble yourself. When you disrespect someone, you flip it and put them up most-high first, right?
1. "man is not created equal" In response to Reply # 0
So you can't hope for something that won't happen by way of design. (evolution creation whatever).
In essence we want to share power together, and provide each person with an equal chance to progress up the ladder. But as we create more chances for folks to get up, the bar keeps moving.
Every american is just average, but thinks he's better than his neighbor. (tocqueville?). It's not enough to have the white picket fence, 2 cars, 2.3 kids, and house in the suburbs. Now you have to have that boat on the lake, flat screen in the living room, and an insatiable appetite for status symbols. But when you look at other societies that don't have our material wealth, they try to do similar things without it. Most popular, funniest, strongest, et cetera. Folks want to be unique and be a part of a group at the same time. It's quite maddening.
2. "Two Wrongs Don't Make A Right" In response to Reply # 0
>My question is, how can we >create true equality, on any >lines, without first reversing the >pre-existing inequality?
Simple. You make it a non-issue, like lots of folks have been doing for years, and they all get along just fine. Once you stop seeing people as black or white or asian and see them as just people, then the economic and social inequalities are easier to recognize and deal with.
>So how can we make ethno-melanin >equality in the US without >first "enslaving" at least to >some degree, the white establishment >for a spell--not too long, >but a symbolic, say, 10-20 >years? Creating "black privilege" >just as pervasive as white >privilege.
Hmm . . . So I guess it'll be alright with you if I toss 7 million Germans in the oven because 50 years ago they killed some of my ancestors, right? Oh wait, too harsh huh? How about we put em in concentration camps for a couple of years? That'll teach them . . .
What good can possibly come of your "reversal?" The majority of white society would be punished for a something they didn't do. I think that you're forgetting that the majority of people aren't racist, and don't prejudge people based on their skin colour. So in order to punish the minority you would go after everyone? Doesn't sound too effective.
Also, do you think that most blacks would enjoy this change? Putting others through what they went through? Sinking down to the level of 1950s segregationists? In essence becoming the type of society that they have struggled to dispose? I don't think anyone with a heart enjoys having a grip on someone like that.
>How can gender equality come without >reversing the gender roles first? > Having dad be the >stay home, boo-boo kissing, haloween >costume sewing, out-putting, bored housewife, >and mom be the bread >winning, sex demanding, abuse asshole?
Once again, you're forgetting something. Most men today don't have a thing to do with the men of the past who were guilty of forcing women into the above roles. In fact most, like me, are kinda disgusted by it. Once again this plan of yours is punishing the minority who still retain the prejudices and stereotypes of the past and in the process punishing the majority who have nothing to do with them.
5. "3 rights make a left" In response to Reply # 2
. > > >What good can possibly come of >your "reversal?" The majority of >white society would be punished >for a something they didn't >do.
We aren't talking about past crimes, but current ones. When you really think about it, it was only a handful of people compared to the general population that were in the slave trade or owned slaves, but all whites benefitted, and all black lost.
Nowadays you have lots of racist institutional policies and structures that damage the lives of colored people in this country (as well as abroad). These aren't the guys with shaved heads and army boots, but the ones in the halls of governments and at the corporate boardrooms. In the ol day's, Massa had to provide food, shelter, and medical care for his investment, now they just give you minimum wage, and you fend for yourself.
White folks of today, of this very second, are often guilty of being racist, and continuing racist practices. The perfect example is urban sprawl. No one really tells you that the reason that they move out of the city is to be around white folks, but the statistical data will tell you that as soon as there is 1 black household per 8 white households, the neighborhood within one generation the neighborhood is all black. They use euphemisms like less crime and better school systems, but when you study the problem, you realize what is really going on.
I live in Austin, capital of Texas, and a very segregated city. But what's so innocent about the segregation here is that they can use the "market", effectively pricing out blacks and browns from better housing and better education, trapping them in the same cycle. Couple that with marketing and lack of good public transportation, and you have the recipe to keep a people oppressed.
And this isn't something you can protest about, it's like trying to get oxygen out of the air because it promotes cell death. The "system" at each and every point, positions itself against african americans.
At every level of success, social, economic, cultural, people of color (Latinos, Asians, Other Afrikans, Native Americans) are kept out by design.
So my main point is to stop thinking that things got better after slavery ended, or after the voting rights act, or after brown vs education. There are things going on today, right this very second, that are against the interests of all people of color in this country.
I think that you're >forgetting that the majority of >people aren't racist, and don't >prejudge people based on their >skin colour.
wrong. the vast majority of people do, even in the black community. Racism is part and parcel of being Amerikkkan. As americans we can not escape it.
So in order >to punish the minority you >would go after everyone? Doesn't >sound too effective.
Efficacy is not an issue, and it never is.
>Also, do you think that most >blacks would enjoy this change?
I've seen black folks enjoy power within their own communities. I've seen black folks enjoy not having to answer to any white people.
>Putting others through what they >went through? Sinking down to >the level of 1950s segregationists? >In essence becoming the type >of society that they have >struggled to dispose?
power, don't confuse the issue with what society we want to become. Utopia does not exist. And if we have to choose btw me and you having power, I definitely want it.
I don't >think anyone with a heart >enjoys having a grip on >someone like that.
Everyone has a heart. It pumps blood throughout the body. But does everyone consider each other at all times? No.
>Once again, you're forgetting something. Most >men today don't have a >thing to do with the >men of the past who >were guilty of forcing women >into the above roles.
Please, most men would love that situation. It's just not PC to say it. This was the default setting in the world up until the 70's, and in most non-westernized countries it is still the rule.
I don't want to ruin your ideas about what our society should be like. In fact I prefer your version to the one offered. But we don't live in a world of rational actors.
6. "RE: 3 rights make a left" In response to Reply # 5
I believe that most people are "racist" in that they classify people based on their outward appearance. Now, do they use that mindset to perpetuate the oppression of a certain group?That is where is the evil sets in... I am conscious of trying to assess people based on their individual behavior, to be aware of unjustly grouping someone based on perceived culture and heritage. I know this approach does nothing to address the injustices that people may have experienced in the past, or continue to suffer under.
This is the best I can do as an individual.I strive not to fall under the bad habits of a system which hurts everyone.
It may be naive to believe in a some utopian concept that we may actually be able to co-exist peacefully. BUT, I refuse to assume tactics which I believe to be wrong, in order to reach my ends.I understand the DESIRE to turn the tables--but I think it would be somewhat of a hollow victory.
I remember struggling with this idea when I first explored feminism.I never felt comfortable bringing MEN down in order to elevate myself.I always felt I wanted to celebrate the qualities I saw in men--in order that they could be freed up to be better people. I felt this would be the true beauty of a matriarchal society.
You need to define your own liberation--in your own terms...
Shoot--gotta get back to work....
“Your body is not a temple, it’s an amusement park. Enjoy the ride.” Anthony Bourdain
for real, though. Where else can cats represent back and forth like this and still show made love?
My thoughts. i totally feel whoever talked about intrinsic (internal) motivation vs. extrinsic (wanting to be somebody/have stuff?) --i feel that, though it smacks of socialism (just playin'!)
On the other note, to my Player who mentioned that the majority of people aren't "racist" and "most men" are against gender inequality.
It may not be en vogue to be labelled as a racist or to consider oneself a racist--this is true. But we must take pause before we consider this to be the absence of or lack of racism.
What we will find is that most people are "notaracists" ("yo, not that I'M racist or anything..." "well... you know... um... black people..." etc. etc. etc.)
--cats who aren't down with the concept of racism, but still contribute to it's existence.
I was reading this Janet Helms book about the creation of white identity, and how that contributes to racism (she makes good points, but at the time of writing this book, she didn't know what the hell she was talking about... peep it anyway "A Race Is A Good Thing To Have" Janet Helms, PhD)
she talks about how people need to admit how they contibute to racism.
ALL white people enjoy white privilege, their race is not made an issue --all the stuff that just IS by default... white doesn't think about afirmative action (affirmations, not quotas, y'all...) white doesn't think about police harassment
by not having to deal with many things, and enjoying how all systems in the US are originally and still set up to benefit white cats, this white privilege contributes to a racist state--one that favors one melanin over another.
Now on the female tip: ALL men contribute to gender inequality. Not only in accepting higher wages, talking to men about women, saying "you know how women are," picking kickball teams, subconscious urge to lift heavy things instead of making your sister do it, subconscious urge to doubt women businesspeople, thinking "wow that's cool" when a woman does everyday man stuff, WANTING SEX AND COERCING TO GET IT "awww, come on, baby...," raising daughters to be princess, blue and pink, war toys for boys, dolls for girls.
These things are intrinsic, embedded aspects of our current social system. But our steps to correct them are usually turning off the lights, or sweeping shit under the rug--this doesn't change the embedded setup, or the structure of our oppressive systems. This just says "bad" and tries to "move on"
But moving on denies cats the chance to heal, it devalues pain. It also ignores roots and causes of these problems and pretends that suddenly, over-night, all these things are okay.
we all know life doesn't generally work that way.
I appreciate y'all playing along. I hope you know this example was to get us all talking.
9. "RE: 3 rights make a left" In response to Reply # 6
>It may be naive to believe >in a some utopian concept >that we may actually be >able to co-exist peacefully.
Peaceful co-existing is the norm. It's the sharing of power, the leveling of the playing field is what we're really talking about.
>BUT, I refuse to assume tactics >which I believe to be >wrong, in order to reach >my ends.I understand the DESIRE >to turn the tables--but I >think it would be somewhat >of a hollow victory.
I don't know if this is turning the tables. Separatism is leaving the country, or taking your neighborhood back, and doing your own thing. Black folks are not interested in running the lives of white folks. We are not interested in sending in our police into your neighborhoods, or making your children learn about Afrikan kings. That is the fundamental difference, it's what makes white folks nervous. But as Cube said, "Who are they to be equal to?".
But if black neighborhoods could develop our own self sufficient, or at the very least able to compete on a large scale in this capitalist economy, that would be a solid victory. It would be nice if we didn't need Proctor and Gamble or Ford to come to our colleges to recruit. When am I going to see Freeman Motors, Jones semiconductors, Mandela cellular phones...
>I remember struggling with this idea >when I first explored feminism.I >never felt comfortable bringing MEN >down in order to elevate >myself.
Again, black power has nothing to do with the oppression of white people. I don't know why folks are getting it twisted.
>You need to define your own >liberation--in your own terms...
12. "RE: Clearing things up..." In response to Reply # 10
First off--to K.orr--I think most of my points were relating to the concept of turning the tables--and I should have responded to the original post....rather than the "sub-thread" or whatever you call it. I agree though, that taking back you community, learning your history and defining you own liberation is what its all about.Which is EXACTLY why I don't get the idea of "turning the tables" If you are talking revolution--well hell, define a new reality, rather than adopting a capitalist, racist, patriarchal, soulsucking system...just with new puppetmasters
"Much love, but that's shit--no offense."--Ha!None taken
D-best--I do agree that true feminist theory promotes equality of the sexes--but you'd be naive to think that many women out there involved in the "struggle" aren't wanting some revenge!!Back in my bad ass politico days I used to fight just to let men be INVITED to some of the actions we put on....these women were missing the point because their anger was clouding the issue.I see the same problem arise in discussions of racism.The anger is soooo legitimate, but what kind of society do you want at the end of the day??
The changes I'm talking about here are not measurable by todays standards.I'm talking about creating a whole new value system, a whole new economy..and it really requires dropping a lot of our current expectations.Requires great mind expansion!But oooooh this is a whole other post really.....
“Your body is not a temple, it’s an amusement park. Enjoy the ride.” Anthony Bourdain
13. "RE: Clearing things up..." In response to Reply # 12
much respect to that.
I've been reading up on some theories of feminist identity development and I came across this one model (don't recall the author... maybe kathleen mcnamara, not sure), but it explained this problem pretty well.
I'll try to dig it up and share with the players. It could help us all reflect on our development as people of action--the theory is based on a model of black identity development, too.
8. "RE: how can we create equality without reversal" In response to Reply # 0
Most people aren't racist.
Yeah I said it again, but that's been my experience. I can't speak for you guys in the US, but that's what I've been seeing all my life up here. I think some people do have a few racist tendencies but I prefer to call them misinformed, rather than an outright racist. All that's required is a little education, a little insight in to other cultures and circumstances and those people will see the light.
Personally I think this method is more effective than flipping the tables just to teach someone a lesson. Efficiency is not an issue? Well then just what is this proposed change supposed to accomplish? . . .
Improved race relations? That won't happen, you aren't going to change people's views by making them suffer.
To gain power? I don't call one group of people who oppresses another powerful, I call them scared. Scared because they know that given the opportunity those underneath them may challenge them. Is this the only way for black people to suceed? Can they not beat white society on it's own terms through hard work and social reform? Or is the civil rights movement totally wrong?
Equality? This cannot be achieved through inflicting inequality on others, that's no secret.
Why can't everyone just get along? Is multiculturalism such a horrible thing? My country has been embracing it for 30 years and as a result we have a MUCH more tolerant society, less racism (probably has to do with the fact that it's illegal!), and less inequality. What must there be a revolution when it's clear that evolution is better for everybody?
14. "RE: how can we create equality without reversal" In response to Reply # 8
where are you at, Marinera? y'all keep in mind i'm still on my quest for a more fruitful "somewhere" to be...
I suppose whether or not all people are "racist" depends on how one defines racism. There are several definitions: the race+power= the believing in concept of "race"= the ethno-melanin prejudice the behaving in ways that contributes to one of the above etc. etc. etc.
Lately, i've been thinking about that last one alot. Even though the term "racism" and the word-association thoughts that go along with it are extremely unpopular in the US (due to hard work and community action for the last 150 years), many people in the US have yet to realize how they contribute to racism, and make personal change to stop that.
I agree with you 100%, though, racism is a construct of circumstance, mis-information and human tendency to be an idiot. In the worse cases it technically should be considered a mental illness as it's an irrational phobia, or compulsion to freak-out over normal things --"oh, my god... they're... dark! ah! oh, my, edith... go inside the house! hide the kids... hide the silverware... oh, my..."