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Gloworm
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6077 posts
Mon Oct-09-00 05:35 PM

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"School Vouchers"


          

yay or nay?

it's a big election year topic.

my (basic) understanding of them is giving low income people money to send their kids to private schools. (right? wrong?)

this doesn't solve the problem of the less than stellar public school. and the issue of the kid fitting in (i was watching ahmad on "soul food" deal with this)....

what are your thoughts?


____________
Glowie's Deep Thoughts Signature

"These cats have $150,000 watches and still end up everywhere two hours late.” - Cheo Hodari Coker

“At the school where I teach, we have no funds to expose kids to other realities. All they have is TV to help them dream, and hip-hop is their escape. That’s how a Jay-Z becomes their role model. It breaks my heart not to be able to take my students to the zoo or the museum, or to a play. Instead of criticizing hip-hop, the government needs to make available other things for these kids to do—give them options, so fast money and material things won’t be their only dream.” - Jacqueline Smith, GA schoolteacher

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
Nay
Oct 09th 2000
1
I'll second that!
Oct 10th 2000
7
RE: School Vouchers
jweldon
Oct 09th 2000
2
RE: School Vouchers
Oct 09th 2000
3
      RE: School Vouchers
Tannaz
Oct 10th 2000
12
The real answer
Oct 09th 2000
4
RE: The real answer
Oct 09th 2000
5
RE: The real answer
Oct 10th 2000
15
clarification
Oct 10th 2000
19
gates is behind minority education
Oct 10th 2000
8
mathematics
Oct 10th 2000
6
RE: mathematics
Oct 10th 2000
10
Questions I have yet to hear answered
Oct 10th 2000
9
getting in is a diff. ?
Oct 10th 2000
13
      the problem
Oct 10th 2000
16
           RE: the problem
Oct 11th 2000
20
"ir"regardless of all that
Oct 10th 2000
11
RE: "ir"regardless of all that
Oct 10th 2000
14
      also
Oct 10th 2000
17
           addendum
Oct 10th 2000
18
USA Today Article 10.11.2000
Oct 11th 2000
21
Can I ask a question here?
Oct 11th 2000
22
the lottery hornswoggle
Oct 11th 2000
23
Thanks.....
Oct 11th 2000
24
      RE: Thanks.....
Oct 11th 2000
25
VOUCHERS A BAND-AID!!!!!
Oct 12th 2000
26

MisterGrump
Charter member
32144 posts
Mon Oct-09-00 07:03 PM

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1. "Nay"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

School vouchers just defeat the purpose of building a better public school system.

You take money out from an already underfunded school district and place it in another so that the educational system will improve. So basically, if this happens, there was enough money to go around all along!



little........................
Grump




________________________________________
Grump
http://twitter.com/Gator_Bell

  

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janey
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123120 posts
Tue Oct-10-00 04:56 AM

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7. "I'll second that!"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

And my prediction is that the money that's left is going to be divided the same way among the public schools, so considering where the majority of private schools are (wealthy neighborhoods), this is just a new way of re-distributing wealth to the wealthy.

Personally, I'm happier to see the wealthy pay property taxes to support public schools and then, if they send their kids to private schools, use that tax money to provide greater benefits to low income/low property tax areas.

This is primarily a perk for the wealthy.

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

  

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jweldon

Mon Oct-09-00 08:32 PM

  
2. "RE: School Vouchers"
In response to Reply # 0


          

more importantly than just taking away money from the public schools system, the idea of vouchers is destined to fail from its inception. george jr. will try and convice voters that his voucher program is designed to help the inner city poor youths so that they have a choice as to where they can go to school: private vs. public. well if you look at the amount of the voucher and the price of any decnet private school there is still a large difference that the government is expecting families to make up. fine and dandy except "poor inner city families" wouldn't be poor if they could afford the difference, cause they'd move their ass out the ghetto. Therefore the only people it is likely to help is upper-middle class families and leave the poor youth of america in schools that now have to compete with government sponsored private schools. within just a short amount of time public schools, even those on the "right" side of the track, will be so underfunded and decrepit that they will provide even less of an education for our future than they do today.
if i were president (god help us all) i'd start by testing all current teachers and all those that fail kick they're ass out and those that pass, raise their base pay by 25-30%. Then recruit just like these internet businesses do, with incentives and good pay. If you look at Asian, especially Japanese culture, some of the corporate business biggest competitors for employees is education. Why? b/c they pay them well, but they also expect them to teach. We do neither but wonder why we don't know ish and disappear into drugs, and violence. Teachers in Japan wake up at the crack of dawn, and get to school to students that want to learn. During lunch these teachers teach while they eat. after school they go to the homes of the students who might be having problems, to speak with the parents. Yeah, exactly, they don't get home till after dusk and shite. Why would teachers in America be willing to do that, same reason that wall streeters or internet startups work through lunch and on weekends, b/c they see the reason for it all.

Vouchers are indicative of what american politics does to fix a problem: quick satisfying fix that makes the voters happy at least until the next election. Look at the New Deal (quick fix for the depression) or Affirmative Action (quick fix for racism, although doesn't actually attack the problem) or Welfare or many of the other programs that we have effortlessly tried. Hell i could be wrong, not like i know anything...

  

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Expertise
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37848 posts
Mon Oct-09-00 09:14 PM

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3. "RE: School Vouchers"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

>more importantly than just taking away
>money from the public schools
>system, the idea of vouchers
>is destined to fail from
>its inception. george jr.
>will try and convice voters
>that his voucher program is
>designed to help the inner
>city poor youths so that
>they have a choice as
>to where they can go
>to school: private vs. public.
> well if you look
>at the amount of the
>voucher and the price of
>any decnet private school there
>is still a large difference
>that the government is expecting
>families to make up.
>fine and dandy except "poor
>inner city families" wouldn't be
>poor if they could afford
>the difference, cause they'd move
>their ass out the ghetto.

Actually, the government can give more. Government spends over $5,000 on each child a year, yet they are only giving like $1,000 individually in voucher money. To hell with that. They should be giving the average amount spended on each child. How much you want to bet that government will do that tho? Not much as long as we have big government representatives in there.

> Therefore the only people
>it is likely to help
>is upper-middle class families and
>leave the poor youth of
>america in schools that now
>have to compete with government
>sponsored private schools. within
>just a short amount of
>time public schools, even those
>on the "right" side of
>the track, will be so
>underfunded and decrepit that they
>will provide even less of
>an education for our future
>than they do today.

Please. School funding is 10 times higher than what it was a decade ago. Most of this bs about schools being underfunded is a lie. The problem is that the schools are not making proper budgets in order to take care of the top priorities. There isn't a state budget in this country that doesn't have adequate funding for public schools.

Oh yeah, Al Gore's lil story about the little girl that has to stand up in class? It's a lie.

>if i were president (god help
>us all) i'd start by
>testing all current teachers and
>all those that fail kick
>they're ass out and those
>that pass, raise their base
>pay by 25-30%. Then
>recruit just like these internet
>businesses do, with incentives and
>good pay.

Another lie. Most teachers only work 10 months out of the year, therefore the pay in comparison to other professionals is adequate. The ones that do work summer school/year round gets compensated. Not to mention teachers have some of the best benefits you can have. In most states they are considered state employees.

If you
>look at Asian, especially Japanese
>culture, some of the corporate
>business biggest competitors for employees
>is education. Why? b/c
>they pay them well, but
>they also expect them to
>teach. We do neither
>but wonder why we don't
>know ish and disappear into
>drugs, and violence. Teachers
>in Japan wake up at
>the crack of dawn, and
>get to school to students
>that want to learn.
>During lunch these teachers teach
>while they eat. after
>school they go to the
>homes of the students who
>might be having problems, to
>speak with the parents.
>Yeah, exactly, they don't get
>home till after dusk and
>shite. Why would teachers
>in America be willing to
>do that, same reason that
>wall streeters or internet startups
>work through lunch and on
>weekends, b/c they see the
>reason for it all.

Because the teacher's unions won't allow it. Guess who was ranked as the most powerful special interest in Washington? It wasn't a corporation....it was the NEA. Teacher's unions have the Democrats on lockdown more than the Religious Right has the Republicans. You can be guaranteed that Al Gore will never change his mind on the issue of school vouchers.

The only Democrat I know, and I'm proud to say this, that has went against the grain of the teacher's unions is Georgia Governor Roy Barnes, who became the first governor of the country to end any kind of teacher tenure with his education reform bill earlier this year. He's guaranteed to get my vote again when he comes up for reelection.

>Vouchers are indicative of what american
>politics does to fix a
>problem: quick satisfying fix that
>makes the voters happy at
>least until the next election.
> Look at the New
>Deal (quick fix for the
>depression) or Affirmative Action (quick
>fix for racism, although doesn't
>actually attack the problem) or
>Welfare or many of the
>other programs that we have
>effortlessly tried. Hell
>i could be wrong, not
>like i know anything...

You are right. Vouchers are only a quick solution. However, the political correctness and the teachers unions must be thrown out of the education system. I personally think individually it is in a parent's best interests to put their children into private schools and/or home schooling, for the results the parent is looking for in an education is much higher. However collectively, we all know not everyone can go to a private school. I think the answer to public schools is to destroy the Dept of Education and give the local communities more power over the contents their children are exposed to. At one time the Republicans used to want to eliminate the DOE. Now I guess they have given up on that idea.

That's why i'm voting Libertarian.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasury. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship." - Alexander Tyler

"In general the art of government consists in taking as much money as possible from one class of citizens to give to the other." -Voltaire

"The assumption that spending more of the taxpayer's money will make things better has survived all kinds of evidence that it has made things worse. The black family- which survived slavery, discrimination, poverty, wars and depressions- began to come apart as the federal government moved in with its well-financed programs to "help." - Thomas Sowell

"Life is insensitive, and the truth can be highly offensive. To hide from either is to hide from the reality of life. Take pride in the fact that I am an equal opportunity offender. You today, someone else tomorrow. You have no constitutional right not to be offended." - Neal Boortz

Some of you still think America's a
democracy. Lemme break it down for
ya...

* Democracy:  Three wolves and a sheep
vote on the dinner menu.
* Democratically Elected Republic: Three
wolves and 2 sheep vote on which sheep's
for dinner. 
* Constitutional Republic: The eating of
mutton is forbidden by law, and the
sheep are armed.

The United States is a CONSTITUTIONAL
REPUBLIC. Not a democracy.

Yes....I am a PROUD Black Libertarian Conservative.

_________________________
http://expertise.blogdrive.com
http://twitter.com/KMBReferee
http://www.ask.fm/KMBReferee

  

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Tannaz

Tue Oct-10-00 10:16 AM

  
12. "RE: School Vouchers"
In response to Reply # 3


          

School vouchers are just another plan conjured up by the evil idiot and his daddy's buddies. But now lets give gw the benefit of the doubt and just for a sec pretend that he isnt an evil idiot but rather just a simpleton trying to do good. (wait, that is a stretch for me, but i will try for the sake of this example). The fundamental flaw in his argument is that he is taking money from an already poor system in communities where benefits should come to all, to a wealthy system that is already doing very well on its own. Maybe in his family that is how they deal with things- he had a bike with a flat tire, and daddy bought him a brand new shiny bike-- but you can't do that with every public school in every community, so forget the plan.


And ...

"Oh yeah, Al Gore's lil story about the little girl that has to stand up in class? It's a lie."

Not a lie. The kid had to stand, but i think they said it was just for a couple of days.

"Another lie. Most teachers only work 10 months out of the year, therefore the pay in comparison to other professionals is adequate"

WHATTTTTT??!!! This is false. Go ahead and include the benefits and the two month vacation and teachers still dont make NEARLY as much as other professionals, who let me remind you also get benefits and stock options.





'Educate to Liberate'

"The old law about 'an eye for an eye' leaves everybody blind."- Martin Luther King Jr.

"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself."-Leo Tolstoy

  

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delsbrothergeorge
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4413 posts
Mon Oct-09-00 09:18 PM

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4. "The real answer"
In response to Reply # 0


          

In Cali, we're looking at Prop 38 which is exactly what Grump describes. It gives money to every parent who wants it, but promises nothing to the kids who need the most help. Don't think it will pass, but who knows?

On the general subject of vouchers, I think they're bad idea. Minority communities are pitted against each other in this private sector battle to gain access to public funds at the expense of bottom-rung kids who get left behind.

Every parent who thinks that vouchers are a good idea needs to realize that private schools are no guarantee. They are not easy to get into and often run at capacity, which means they couldn't accept someone, even if they met certain qualifications.

IMO, the real answer is to acquire private funds to build our own schools. If every Black multi-millionaire athlete or entertainer donated to a general fund, a nationwide school system could be established to address those needs that have gone unanswered for far too many years.

And if that is asking too much, then why couldn't the folks who want to improve schools pool their money and try to make it happen themselves? I'm not so naive as to think that the worst neighborhoods have the kind of capital to make this happen, but suppose that one neighborhood makes a serious push to build their own school. And suppose that they're successful. Don't you think that they would gain so much attention that certain image conscious corporations wouldn't fall all over themselves to mimic the effort?

Case in point, Shaquille donated a substantial sum of money to the Boys and Girls Clubs of LA some time ago so they could buy computers and do some renovation/expansion to some of their buildings. Shortly thereafter, Microsoft and Apple got ahold of the info and followed suit. They supplied computers, software, grant money, etc.

Now we can't exaclty expect Bill Gates to ante up everytime, but this is a very reasonable example.

It's just a matter of one group of folks organizing and making it happen.


---I'm here---

Quotes that won't make sense until Fall 2004:

"Since I lost all my money gambling, I figure I have an opening for a vice."

"I have just discovered the best thing ever: prostitution."

---i'm here---

"...do what scares you..." -- l. varela

  

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Expertise
Charter member
37848 posts
Mon Oct-09-00 09:59 PM

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5. "RE: The real answer"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          


>IMO, the real answer is to
>acquire private funds to build
>our own schools. If every
>Black multi-millionaire athlete or entertainer
>donated to a general fund,
>a nationwide school system could
>be established to address those
>needs that have gone unanswered
>for far too many years.


Lemme get this straight....you saying the California State Government should force businesses and rich people to make "donations"? What's the difference between a "donation" and taxes? Nothing! So you're saying they should take the money from people that may have no interest at all in the public school system.

I don't understand why in the world would you guys want to invest more in something that fails in everything it does like government. It either fails at every program implemented or shadows in comparison to the private sector, yet big government doctrine has brainwashed the masses into thinking government is the solution for everything. If all else fails, look to the federal government.

>And if that is asking too
>much, then why couldn't the
>folks who want to improve
>schools pool their money and
>try to make it happen
>themselves? I'm not so naive
>as to think that the
>worst neighborhoods have the kind
>of capital to make this
>happen, but suppose that one
>neighborhood makes a serious push
>to build their own school.
>And suppose that they're successful.
>Don't you think that they
>would gain so much attention
>that certain image conscious corporations
>wouldn't fall all over themselves
>to mimic the effort?

Why put more money into a losing system? Schools already have all the funds it needs to be successful. Just because you throw money at something doesn't mean it will be more efficent. Billions of dollars have been thrown into public schooling, and it still sucks. That's why corporations and private citizens don't put more into schools. It's as if it's a waste of money. Not to mention it would contradict liberal ideas to allow the private sector to get involved in schools. They are afraid public schools might be more "commericalized" like sports arenas and such. Nevermind about education of the children because they might actually hold the teachers accountable for the kind of students they indoctrinate. No, we can't have that.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasury. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship." - Alexander Tyler

"In general the art of government consists in taking as much money as possible from one class of citizens to give to the other." -Voltaire

"The assumption that spending more of the taxpayer's money will make things better has survived all kinds of evidence that it has made things worse. The black family- which survived slavery, discrimination, poverty, wars and depressions- began to come apart as the federal government moved in with its well-financed programs to "help." - Thomas Sowell

"Life is insensitive, and the truth can be highly offensive. To hide from either is to hide from the reality of life. Take pride in the fact that I am an equal opportunity offender. You today, someone else tomorrow. You have no constitutional right not to be offended." - Neal Boortz

Some of you still think America's a
democracy. Lemme break it down for
ya...

* Democracy:  Three wolves and a sheep
vote on the dinner menu.
* Democratically Elected Republic: Three
wolves and 2 sheep vote on which sheep's
for dinner. 
* Constitutional Republic: The eating of
mutton is forbidden by law, and the
sheep are armed.

The United States is a CONSTITUTIONAL
REPUBLIC. Not a democracy.

Yes....I am a PROUD Black Libertarian Conservative.

_________________________
http://expertise.blogdrive.com
http://twitter.com/KMBReferee
http://www.ask.fm/KMBReferee

  

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k_orr
Charter member
80197 posts
Tue Oct-10-00 11:17 AM

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15. "RE: The real answer"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          


>Lemme get this straight....you saying the
>California State Government should force
>businesses and rich people to
>make "donations"? What's the
>difference between a "donation" and
>taxes? Nothing! So
>you're saying they should take
>the money from people that
>may have no interest at
>all in the public school
>system.

Actually businesses have a huge interest in what is taught at school. I read trade magazines from lots of industries, and the one thing that kills them, is fewer and fewer students are going into blue collar jobs that pay well. In austin, the semiconductor industry got with the local college system to create a wafer fab tech program.

Businesses get their employees from folks who went to SCHOOL.

But I think what is really trying to be said on this group, is that Afrikan Americans should invest in our own institutions and industry, so that we are not dependent on others for education. If I had a school, I would teach math, science, history, and literature. But I would make sure my students got the full picture on those things. Knowing that white folks, black folks, asians, indians, et cetera had an impact on every field that you study could be quite enriching for children. Ultimately the parents will impart some knowledge of self, but the fact of the matter is that most parents don't have time. We should laud those who take the time, but we can't just forget about the kids whose parents don't care. In a good school system, the parent complements or supplements education, because the parents have faith in the curriculum and teachers.

>I don't understand why in the
>world would you guys want
>to invest more in something
>that fails in everything it
>does like government.

Government doesn't fail. Government works pretty well. It certainly does many things that private industry would never do. Private industry was not interested in the internet, and countless other things that the government has sponsored or protected.

> If all else fails,
>look to the federal government.

believe me, when folks were protesting in the deep south, they needed the feds.

>Why put more money into a
>losing system?

Because there are no real options for most folks.

Schools already
>have all the funds it
>needs to be successful.
>Just because you throw money
>at something doesn't mean it
>will be more efficent.

perhaps we should not be looking at efficiency, but results. I could care less if 50% of the students are on point, I want it to be 100%.

>Nevermind
>about education of the children
>because they might actually hold
>the teachers accountable for the
>kind of students they indoctrinate.
> No, we can't have
>that.

Accountability is another buzzword. You need to study the issue, and not swallow the party line. Education is a huge problem, and the free market has never been the answer. Look at places without free schools, few get educated, and the rich and powerful maintain.

k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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delsbrothergeorge
Charter member
4413 posts
Tue Oct-10-00 08:21 PM

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19. "clarification"
In response to Reply # 5


          

>>IMO, the real answer is to
>>acquire private funds to build
>>our own schools.

***This means do for self...Government not involved at all...Private venture completely...For a similar idea see "Drug Dealer"---BDP's "Sex and Violence"

>I don't understand why in the
>world would you guys want
>to invest more in something
>that fails in everything it
>does like government. It
>either fails at every program
>implemented or shadows in comparison
>to the private sector, yet
>big government doctrine has brainwashed
>the masses into thinking government
>is the solution for everything.
> If all else fails,
>look to the federal government.

***I agree on this point...My original post should have been more clear

>Yes....I am a PROUD Black Libertarian
>Conservative.

***Why don't you just say you're a conundrum? Lol


---I'm here---

Quotes that won't make sense until Fall 2004:

"Since I lost all my money gambling, I figure I have an opening for a vice."

"I have just discovered the best thing ever: prostitution."

---i'm here---

"...do what scares you..." -- l. varela

  

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k_orr
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80197 posts
Tue Oct-10-00 04:57 AM

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8. "gates is behind minority education"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

He has a huge scholarship fund.

k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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k_orr
Charter member
80197 posts
Tue Oct-10-00 04:52 AM

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6. "mathematics"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>yay or nay?
>
>it's a big election year topic.
>
>
>my (basic) understanding of them is
>giving low income people money
>to send their kids to
>private schools. (right? wrong?)
>
>
>this doesn't solve the problem of
>the less than stellar public
>school. and the issue
>of the kid fitting in
>(i was watching ahmad on
>"soul food" deal with this)....
>
>
>what are your thoughts?

It's important to understand how vouchers work. It's not super complicated math, but it's a little tricky.

Let's use 100 students, and a 10,000 budget. each student is worth about 100 bones.

10,000

8,500 - from state and local taxes
1,500 - from the federal goverment
= 10,000.

Vouchers, under the fed programs, take money from the fed govt, not state and local. So let's say 10 students get a voucher.

8500 - from state and local - stays the same. You don't get to opt out of paying your local taxes when you get a voucher.

1500 - from fed
150 - for vouchers

So the old district has 9850 for 90 students. The spending goes up for the old students, to 109.44 cents.

If you can get enough kids to get on vouchers, you can reduce class size, increase the # of teachers, and meet the needs of more students.

At least that is how the republican math works. sounds like a good deal for the local districts, but how do the private/parochial schools benefit?

peace,
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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Gloworm
Charter member
6077 posts
Tue Oct-10-00 07:03 AM

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10. "RE: mathematics"
In response to Reply # 6


          


>It's important to understand how vouchers
>work. It's not super
>complicated math, but it's a
>little tricky.


is it "fuzzy math"? © Dubya

____________
Glowie's Deep Thoughts Signature

"These cats have $150,000 watches and still end up everywhere two hours late.” - Cheo Hodari Coker

“At the school where I teach, we have no funds to expose kids to other realities. All they have is TV to help them dream, and hip-hop is their escape. That’s how a Jay-Z becomes their role model. It breaks my heart not to be able to take my students to the zoo or the museum, or to a play. Instead of criticizing hip-hop, the government needs to make available other things for these kids to do—give them options, so fast money and material things won’t be their only dream.” - Jacqueline Smith, GA schoolteacher

  

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BooDaah
Charter member
32690 posts
Tue Oct-10-00 05:38 AM

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9. "Questions I have yet to hear answered"
In response to Reply # 0


          

For those who like the voucher concept:

Unless you have a supplimental means of adding to the voucher (which doesn't cover the full cost of private school) what good will it do? Won't student in this group be further hurt by EVEN LESS funding for their public school?

Part of the thing which makes private schools "private" is that they don't let everyone in, right? What makes folk think that the people who are in the private schools now won't flee or make it harder to get in so they won't have to deal with the "public school element" that they were paying to get away from in the first place?

As stated before, most private schools have entrance exams or some similar means of determining who is "good enough". If you've been getiing a "substandard" public school education previously, what is to say that you'd be able to pass these tests? I agree some will, but again, what do you do with those that can't?

As has been said before, this (vouchers) seems like a unrealistic means of solving the problems with education.
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k_orr
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13. "getting in is a diff. ?"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          


But not having the option is the issue.

>Unless you have a supplimental means
>of adding to the voucher
>(which doesn't cover the full
>cost of private school) what
>good will it do?

Perhaps some of those schools are offering minority scholarships, and you could use the federal money to cover the rest, much like college.

Won't
>student in this group be
>further hurt by EVEN LESS
>funding for their public school?

I'm not sure how you figure that. If a kid can get into a private school (which seems to be synonymous with better, why I don't know), then they should be doing better.

But the situation everyone is thinking is that Jamal from 129th street starts going to Kent with Dirk and Buffy and comes out with microsoft/monopoly type skills. This is a lot like the whole putting poor folks in with middle class folks.

>Part of the thing which makes
>private schools "private" is that
>they don't let everyone in,
>right?

Some schools are selective, ie they only want bluebloods and patricians. The kinda school that Al Gore or Bush would have gone to. But other private schools are religous. In essence you need God in the classroom, and public schools can't teach religion.

I don't think it's a case where they are trying to create the best possible college prospects. Often that is a byproduct of the school system, or part of the whole upper-class power scheme.

>What makes folk think
>that the people who are
>in the private schools now
>won't flee or make it
>harder to get in so
>they won't have to deal
>with the "public school element"

They do that now. They're called suburban schools. And last time I saw the stats, middle class black kids didn't know that much more than their working class counterparts.

>As stated before, most private schools
>have entrance exams or some
>similar means of determining who
>is "good enough". If you've
>been getiing a "substandard" public
>school education previously, what is
>to say that you'd be
>able to pass these tests?

Again, what if you're a bright student but your school district can not challenge your intellect?

>I agree some will, but
>again, what do you do
>with those that can't?

The folks who leave public school for private schools, leave their local/state money at the school. (well school financing is complicated, but basically their parents' money in taxes still goes to the school district) Thus the district has more funds and less kids. Peep the articles on frontline @ pbs.org.

>As has been said before, this
>(vouchers) seems like a unrealistic
>means of solving the problems
>with education.

As opposed to the system we have in place now?

I think there are a lot of issues with American education as it affects even the most able to take advantage of it. But when you start speaking on those who aren't even in the running, particularly African and Latino students, then you've got a whole other set of problems.

peace
k. orr

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BooDaah
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Tue Oct-10-00 11:25 AM

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16. "the problem"
In response to Reply # 13


          

your previous discussion doesn't allow for the variances in locality (in regards to the amount per student).

part of the problem now is that kids in poorer neighborhoods get a poorer eduaction because of their environment, cali schools are perfect examples of this, less tax money, etc.. these are the exact people who need help the most, and a voucher won't do them any good because their parents will have a difficult time making up the balance (if their kids can get in and/or get there in the first place). these schools and their students are the ones who will suffer the most. you mention scholarships, but remember cali has pretty much put the kibosh on those, and in the cases where they ARE available you have tons of kids fighting over those few.

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
(see Candy1's sig about what that means)
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
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-----------------------------
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Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------
"What are we as African Americans? Let's really examine how we are contributing to the projection of our own images of ourselves. What are we really willing to give up? Our integrity? The honor of our community, just for some money? "-Jada

  

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k_orr
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Wed Oct-11-00 04:11 AM

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20. "RE: the problem"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

>your previous discussion doesn't allow for
>the variances in locality (in
>regards to the amount per
>student).

It should hold for all budgets in everywhere. A certain set percentage of school money comes from local and federal funds. The local funds stay, the smaller federal funds move. It's mathematically sound. But the somehow that 100 dollars worth of education comes from 15 federal dollars plus ?.

>part of the problem now is
>that kids in poorer neighborhoods
>get a poorer eduaction because
>of their environment, cali schools
>are perfect examples of this,
>less tax money, etc..
>these are the exact people
>who need help the most,
>and a voucher won't do
>them any good because their
>parents will have a difficult
>time making up the balance
>(if their kids can get
>in and/or get there in
>the first place).

But now they don't have any options. At least with the voucher option, the 1% of families that could work 3 jobs to make up the difference would do it.

these schools
>and their students are the
>ones who will suffer the
>most. you mention scholarships, but
>remember cali has pretty much
>put the kibosh on those,
>and in the cases where
>they ARE available you have
>tons of kids fighting over
>those few.

I'm in Texas, where they ended affirmative action in higher ed. It happened at the law school I was thinking of attending actually.

But I don't see the vouchers as an end all solution to the education problems. But what could be the real negative effects of trying it out?

k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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marie_laveau
Member since Oct 14th 2002
114 posts
Tue Oct-10-00 10:03 AM

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11. ""ir"regardless of all that"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

it boils down to the unconstitutionality and separation of church and state. if the school is religious based, government money doesnt belong there. government has no say in the cirriculum of private schools and the actual teaching method and info cant be regulated.
all the other points, though very valid, still wont hold wait in the supreme court. where are test cases when you need them?
peace and drum beats
marie_laveau

"stay out the bushes"-jesse
"preach jesse preach on"-bruh from school daze

  

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k_orr
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Tue Oct-10-00 11:07 AM

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14. "RE: "ir"regardless of all that"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

but not all private schools are religious. What could really happen is that some entrepeneurs get in the mix and create for profit schools. Basically screening out certain kids so that they can say they have a very competitive environment. So basically you could have a country/ghetto brain drain.

peace
k. orr

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janey
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Tue Oct-10-00 04:05 PM

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17. "also"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

there is a line of Supreme Court cases in which a doctrine has emerged that allows benefits to parochial schools if they are incidentally part of an entire group of schools (some religious and some not) that is benefited.

It's pretty complicated, but for example a bus system that provided buses for all schools irrespective of whether they were public or private and, if private, irrespective of whether they were religious or secular, would be permissible.

In addition, the voucher system is designed to create a benefit to all students. The students (or their parents, really) can use the benefit as they choose. Thus, the vouchers do not "establish" a religion, because the benefit flows from the government through the student to the school and receipt of the benefit by the student is not dependent on whether the ultimate beneficiary (the school) is or is not religious in nature.

Also, as an example, all schools are accredited by their state, religious schools too. Application of objective measures regarding curriculum, teaching standards, standardized tests, etc., has not been found to violate Constitutional principles.

That being said, I don't like the voucher idea. It cuts things too close to home for my taste on the establishment/entanglement question (despite the fact that I can state the argument, I don't agree with it in principle), and I am convinced that this is a boondoggle for the wealthy, who currently pay BOTH property taxes AND private school tuition but in a voucher system would at least pay less tuition. Less money out of their pockets means less money in the school system as a whole and something tells me that it's not the schools in the wealthy areas that are going to suffer for it. I'm not understanding why the wealthy should be given this tax break.

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

  

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janey
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Tue Oct-10-00 04:18 PM

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18. "addendum"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

The following is a portion of the syllabus for Mitchell v. Helms, which was decided in June of this year, in which federal aid was trickled down through local agencies to schools, including parochial schools, and found by the Supreme Court to be permissible.

The language is sometimes hard to parse through, but (a) discusses the "entanglement" question and (b) discusses the "establishment" question.

(a) In modifying the Lemon test–which asked whether a statute (1) has a secular purpose, (2) has a primary effect of advancing or inhibiting religion, or (3) creates an excessive entanglement between government and religion, see 403 U.S., at 612—613–Agostini examined only the first and second of those factors, see 521 U.S., at 222—223, recasting the entanglement inquiry as simply one criterion relevant to determining a statute’s effect, id., at 232—233. The Court also acknowledged that its cases had pared somewhat the factors that could justify a finding of excessive entanglement. Id., at 233—234. It then set out three primary criteria for determining a statute’s effect: Government aid has the effect of advancing religion if it (1) results in governmental indoctrination, (2) defines its recipients by reference to religion, or (3) creates an excessive entanglement. Id., at 233—234. In this case, the inquiry under Agostini’s purpose and effect test is a narrow one. Because the District Court’s holding that Chapter 2 has a secular purpose is not challenged, only Chapter 2’s effect need be considered. Further, in determining that effect, only the first two Agostini criteria need be considered, because the District Court’s holding that Chapter 2 does not create an excessive entanglement is not challenged. Pp. 7—9.

(b) Whether governmental aid to religious schools results in religious indoctrination ultimately depends on whether any indoctrination that occurs could reasonably be attributed to governmental action. See, e.g., Agostini, 521 U.S., at 226. Moreover, the answer to the indoctrination question will resolve the question whether an educational aid program “subsidizes” religion. See id., at 230—231. In distinguishing between indoctrination that is attributable to the State and indoctrination that is not, the Court has consistently turned to the neutrality principle, upholding aid that is offered to a broad range of groups or persons without regard to their religion. As a way of assuring neutrality, the Court has repeatedly considered whether any governmental aid to a religious institution results from the genuinely independent and private choices of individual parents, e.g., id., at 226. Agostini’s second primary criterion–whether an aid program defines its recipients by reference to religion, 521 U.S., at 234–is closely related to the first. It looks to the same facts as the neutrality inquiry, see id., at 225—226, but uses those facts to answer a somewhat different question–whether the criteria for allocating the aid create a financial incentive to undertake religious indoctrination, id., at 231. Such an incentive is not present where the aid is allocated on the basis of neutral, secular criteria that neither favor nor disfavor religion, and is made available to both religious and secular beneficiaries on a nondiscriminatory basis. Ibid. Pp. 9—15.

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

  

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BooDaah
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Wed Oct-11-00 07:00 AM

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21. "USA Today Article 10.11.2000"
In response to Reply # 0


          

saw this and though it might add to the discussion:

Vouchers 'racist impact' predicted

By Tamara Henry, USA TODAY

A California ballot proposal to create the nation's largest school-voucher
program would increase racial inequality in public schools, says a report out
Tuesday.

The Applied Research Center, a liberal Oakland think tank, says a study of
Proposition 38 found that the voucher program would leave the majority of
low-income students and minorities in debilitated public schools, while
affluent families would receive subsidies for private education.

The report's conclusion is based largely on the plan's lack of
income-eligibility limits and the ability of private schools to exclude students.

"Only parents who already can pay to send their children to private schools
could use vouchers in real life," co-author Tammy Johnson says. "California
private schools are already nearly completely filled. Those parents are
mostly white, while the kids who need help are often from communities of
color."

Johnson says there are 5 million children in California public schools and
700,000 in private schools.

Clint Bolick of the Institute for Justice, a Libertarian public-interest law firm
that supports voucher programs, describes the center's conclusions as
"absolutely preposterous."

"Public schools are the greatest engine of racial inequality in our society
today," Bolick says. "They are segregated both by race and economic
status. School choice, by contrast, gives low-income and minority kids a
real opportunity to access high-quality educational opportunities. This study
substitutes ideology for real scholarship."

Under Proposition 38, parents would get $4,000 per child to go to private
schools, secular or religious. Vouchers would be awarded regardless of
family income, and the private schools could exclude students based on
English language proficiency, religion, ability to pay, disciplinary record,
academic record or physical ability.

Johnson says the exclusions " have a racist impact."

Bolick, however, says that "$4,000 makes a much bigger difference to
low-income people than to wealthier people, who can already afford to
send their kids to private schools. It's families at the economic margin who
will benefit the most from this proposal."

The ballot measure, sponsored by Tim Draper, a venture capitalist and
former member of the state Board of Education, is opposed by the nation's
largest teachers union.

"To make all schools better, we have to do more of what we know works
— reducing class size, setting high expectations, and attracting and retaining
high-quality teachers," says Bob Chase, president of the 2.5-million-member
National Education Association.

Chase points to a report by the Policy Analysis for California Education
group, which says Proposition 38 would cost more and affect fewer
students than proven education reforms. Researchers found that reducing
class size in California costs half as much per year as Proposition 38 would
and serves three times as many students. The state's $1.4 billion
class-size-reduction effort improves educational opportunity for 1.9 million
students. By contrast, the researchers projected, private school vouchers
would cost about $3 billion to serve 650,000 students.

Michigan also has a voucher initiative on the Nov. 7 ballot.

Voucher programs in Milwaukee, Cleveland and Florida have strict limits,
including family income, the number of students who can participate, and the
admission criteria used by private schools.


  

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janey
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Wed Oct-11-00 07:35 AM

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22. "Can I ask a question here?"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

Where is all that money from the lottery going? When that stupid lottery was advertised to voters, they said that all money not used for the annuities for the winners or for administration of the lottery was going to be given to schools, and that this would be extra -- they wouldn't divert other school funds away because of the lottery money.

So where is it? There should be a TON of money in that pool, shouldn't there? Just look at how many lottery tickets are sold and how many lottery games there are.

I know that this is off topic, but damn California is always coming up with these stupid ideas and getting them on the ballot as initiatives or referenda, and then they turn out to be complete boondoggles.

This state used to be known for its school systems before Prop 13 and all the school cutbacks (on every educational level) due to decreased property tax income.

It's an embarrassment.

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

  

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k_orr
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Wed Oct-11-00 09:30 AM

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23. "the lottery hornswoggle"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

Basically the state allocates a certain # of funds for education. Then when they get a lottery, those original certain funds for education get moved over to something else, and the lottery replaces it. It's not funds + lottery, it's lottery or funds.

at least that's how it's done in Texas.

k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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Gloworm
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Wed Oct-11-00 10:01 AM

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24. "Thanks....."
In response to Reply # 21


          

so this voucher thing is basically a plan to widen the gap b/t white/privileged and minorities/underprivileged....
haves and have nots, anyone? karl marx?

____________
Glowie's Deep Thoughts Signature

"These cats have $150,000 watches and still end up everywhere two hours late.” - Cheo Hodari Coker

“At the school where I teach, we have no funds to expose kids to other realities. All they have is TV to help them dream, and hip-hop is their escape. That’s how a Jay-Z becomes their role model. It breaks my heart not to be able to take my students to the zoo or the museum, or to a play. Instead of criticizing hip-hop, the government needs to make available other things for these kids to do—give them options, so fast money and material things won’t be their only dream.” - Jacqueline Smith, GA schoolteacher

  

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k_orr
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Wed Oct-11-00 10:13 AM

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25. "RE: Thanks....."
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

>so this voucher thing is basically
>a plan to widen the
>gap b/t white/privileged and minorities/underprivileged....
>
>haves and have nots, anyone?
>karl marx?

That's always been the plan. Forget Karl Marx, think aristocracy.

k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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nappiness
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Thu Oct-12-00 11:45 AM

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26. "VOUCHERS A BAND-AID!!!!!"
In response to Reply # 0


          

REVOLUTIONIZE, the public education system in this country and we wouldn't need vouchers. vouchers simply takes the focus off of the effed up existing pub. ed. system. it's all trickery and i hope poor people don't fall for the okey-doke......
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