"..except in cases of rape, incest or when the mother's life is in danger"
In looking at the candidates' positions on abortion, I once again ran across this phrase:
"opposed to all abortion except in cases of rape, incest or when the mother's life is in danger."
For those who are anti-abortion among us AND who find the above exceptions to be acceptable or desirable, could someone explain to me why, if abortion is wrong oro a sin, it is less wrong or less of a sin to abort a fetus resulting from rape or incest?
Or, alternatively, are these exceptions uniformly abhorrent to those opposed to abortion?
Thanks.
Peace.
~ ~ ~ All meetings end in separation All acquisition ends in dispersion All life ends in death - The Buddha
1. "RE: ..except in cases of rape, incest or when the mother's life is in da..." In response to Reply # 0
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ It is acceptable because the number of those abortions performed are relatively low(that's why it's acceptable to them) . They don't believe a child or woman should go through another trauma of carrying child to full term and giving it away for adoption or should she be reminded of the horrible thing that has happened to her. That is the anti-abortion person reasoning.My ex-husband and I used to have this agrument all the time.
P.S . I am for a woman's choice.
Witty as can be , but not for sale . RUN DMC
Money is the key to end all your woes/ your ups and downs , your highs and your lows / Won't you tell the last time that love bought your clothes / It's like that and that's the way it is. HUH!!! RUN DMC
It is very difficult to become pregnant in a rape situation. So basically they are saying in a situation where you are least likely to become pregnant abortion is okay. Same crap , different day.
A 4u Witty as can be , but not for sale . RUN DMC
Money is the key to end all your woes/ your ups and downs , your highs and your lows / Won't you tell the last time that love bought your clothes / It's like that and that's the way it is. HUH!!! RUN DMC
>It is very difficult to become >pregnant in a rape situation.
How so?
>So basically they are saying in >a situation where you are >least likely to become pregnant >abortion is okay.
So, if a couple is using a condom, a diaphragm, non-oxynol-9, I.U.D, the pill, and the rhythm method to avoid pregnancy, but somehow got pregnant anyway, it would be okay to get an abortion according to 'them'?
>>It is very difficult to become >>pregnant in a rape situation. > >How so? I don't know what some of these schools are teaching you but , try a book on a woman's reproductive system the info is in there.It is very difficult to become pregnant believe it or not, but when it occurs everything was in the right place at the right time. > >>So basically they are saying in >>a situation where you are >>least likely to become pregnant >>abortion is okay. > >So, if a couple is using >a condom, a diaphragm, non-oxynol-9, >I.U.D, the pill, and the >rhythm method to avoid pregnancy, >but somehow got pregnant anyway, >it would be okay to >get an abortion according to >'them'? > > The woman wasn't raped now was she !!!!!! They are condemning premarital sex, pushing their morals on others . it's okay to get an abortion when you are forced , but not okay when you do it willingly.
I think it would be more accurate to say that, statistically, pregnancy resulting from rape is rare. That's not to that there's anything magical about violence that impairs conception, but, rather, for a whole host of reasons, the probability that any woman will become pregnant at any given time multiplied by the probability of significant ejaculate, etc., just leads to statistical improbability.
Peace.
~ ~ ~ All meetings end in separation All acquisition ends in dispersion All life ends in death - The Buddha
10. "Was he anti-abortion" In response to Reply # 1
on strict religious grounds? Because the small number of pregnancies terminated for these reasons doesn't make it less murderous if you believe that it's murder. Does it? Nor does the trauma of bringing the pregnancy to full term negate the murder, if you believe that it's murder.
I can't imagine how hard it must have been to be married to someone with diametrically opposed political views.
Peace.
~ ~ ~ All meetings end in separation All acquisition ends in dispersion All life ends in death - The Buddha
27. "RE: Was he anti-abortion" In response to Reply # 10
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Yes. It was a difficult 2 years. I managed to persuade him into believing that it is a woman's choice and if she is to be judged that is God's job , not his or the U.S government.
Witty as can be , but not for sale . RUN DMC
Money is the key to end all your woes/ your ups and downs , your highs and your lows / Won't you tell the last time that love bought your clothes / It's like that and that's the way it is. HUH!!! RUN DMC
2. "I am ANTI-Abortion and Pro-Choice" In response to Reply # 0
ANTI: I don't think abortion should be used like birth control.....
PRO: I don't think Reinquist and Clarence Carter...opps I mean Clarence Thomas should extend themselves to meddling inside MY body......
Abortion to me is just like homosexuality (in terms of deciding right and wrong) I can't say if it is - right or wrong. I'm just glad it ain me! I got enuff problems.
5. "Was that the question?" In response to Reply # 2
I'm anti-abortion and pro-choice, too. That wasn't my question or my intent. I'm trying to understand why those who are anti-abortion without qualifiers are willing to accept these exceptions.
Thanks, though.
Peace.
~ ~ ~ All meetings end in separation All acquisition ends in dispersion All life ends in death - The Buddha
I dont think there are any federally funded gay people- even the gay soldiers arent supposed to talk about it (and you wouldnt believe the stories they do talk about).
Those items are categorized as trauma- as such the state cant obligate citizens to endure trauma of their own volition on the behalf of political determinations. This also extends to the well being of the unborn child- drawing in the questionable integrity of the paternal mate; the excuse is- not only is the woman entitled to abort under those circumstances but she may additional have concerns for the child's well being.
consider also that some of these cases are regarding very young girls- obligating a 13 year old child to carry a child of molestation to term is something that not even the republicans would stand behind.
Because it's certainly not religion, is it? I think if I were going to be anti-abortion as a religious matter (I mean the kind of person who says "Abortion is murder"), then I would have to take the position that it's murder irrespective of how the pregnancy occurred, nahmean?
Peace.
~ ~ ~ All meetings end in separation All acquisition ends in dispersion All life ends in death - The Buddha
The politician doesnt ask "what if" to get an answer- he only asks that so his constituents can waste their time talking about it amongst themselves- and then the next election year he asks again...
I mean, at least Buchanan is consistent. "Human Rights Amendment," my foot. Harrumph! How many times do I have to tell the people of this country that non-controversial Constitutional Amendments take decades to effect? Apparently Buchanan hasn't been listening to me or he's hoping that his constituents aren't.
Peace.
~ ~ ~ All meetings end in separation All acquisition ends in dispersion All life ends in death - The Buddha
If I was a hardocore Christian zealot I might offer an explanation like so...
The child of sin is best relieved the stigma of inbred evil. If a baby is born of molestation, or rape- then sins of the father customs might bear a heavy burden on the spiritual development of the child.
While this is primarily a look into the manner of religious extremists I can see several "loopholes" as boodah put it that release the religious from contradicting themselves.
Any true Christian can just as easily side behind a long history of murder in the name of God- it was in several instances the specific work of angels to slaughter the children of infidels and supposedly this will again be the case in the end days.
Some people believe in striking down the wicked- or the seeds of evil.
Some of the people in this debate also encourage the bombing of abortion clinics- dont be surprised that they waffle on the whole murder thing.
Although I appreciate your position, I would like to hear from anyone who is or calls themselves Christian who believes that the sins of the father can vest in the child, or that the manner in which conception occurs could create sin in a child.
Peace.
~ ~ ~ All meetings end in separation All acquisition ends in dispersion All life ends in death - The Buddha
I dont think you'll find someone willing to speak up in that manner around here.
I should also refer you to the idea of abonimation. By this principle the vested sins of the child are irrelevant- the conception of the child is seen as an irreputable act against the will and nature of God that must be corrected. This same philosophy is attributed to homosexuals and even Blacks in some sects; it has fueled everything from inquisition to crusade.
But like Boodah says its not typified of Christian philosophy.
(Although Christian doctrine frequently compels that the righteous strike down the wicked)
22. "that still wouldn't fly" In response to Reply # 16
because by the tenets of the Christian faith all are born into (and guilty of) sin and to kill a child concieved as a result of a particular sin is only compounding the sin.
again, this is the need for the loophole (which isn't in anyway spiritually grounded). it allows a place to retreat when the faiths teachings don't agree with what is "fair" by human standards.
Looking at the case of those who are willing to kill to stop a killing, where's the "Christain" (or whatever) in that?
I don't want to start another religious debate, but this goes back to the fact that many who CLAIM certain religions live completely beyond what the faith teaches. Anybody can SAY they are whatever, but when you look at their fruit of their lives the truth is revealed.
------QUOTE STARTS HERE------ BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator (see Candy1's sig about what that means) ** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES: http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html ----------------------------- Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe: Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished. ----------------------------- "What are we as African Americans? Let's really examine how we are contributing to the projection of our own images of ourselves. What are we really willing to give up? Our integrity? The honor of our community, just for some money? "-Jada
18. "THERE'S A THIN LINE" In response to Reply # 0
You can also add on to that list "in cases were the health of the mother is seriously jeapordized." Laws are man made and easily subjected to interpretation and individual sentiment, thus we have supreme court precedents.
There is no hard and fast rule that supports the principles of the most avid anti-abortionist with regard to these clauses. I believe it probably just boils down to believing that it would be almost inhumane to subject an individual to bringing to term a child that has been conceived in such a manner. . .not only physically but mentally as well. But you will find that anti-abortionists who harbour that adamance, based upon religion beliefs, believe that NO circumstance warrants abortion.
I am so torn on this issue having had to experience it but also being on a spiritual journey that teaches me that murder is always wrong. In the end the the onus HAS to be left up to the expectant mother to make the decision in whatever scenario. Hopefully she will make the right choice.
"One of the things I fear most is to be on my death bed wondering what I've done with my life and thinking it has meant nothing"- me
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage ~ ANAIS NIN
20. "It's a tough call for everyone" In response to Reply # 18
As NuShooz pointed out, I don't think there's anyone who actually favors abortion. We can speculate about people who are completely irresponsible about birth control, but I'm willing to give even them the benefit of the doubt.
So, are you saying that there are instances of "justifiable homicide"?
Peace.
~ ~ ~ All meetings end in separation All acquisition ends in dispersion All life ends in death - The Buddha
>So, are you saying that there >are instances of "justifiable homicide"?
Well in not necessarily in the case of abortion (if I keep my spiritual hat on). But concerning you initial question that would be a resounding yes- according to most anti-abortionists and republicans. And in other matters? But of course there are many examples of situations where homicide would be logical/understandable. . .especially when in self defense. I guess it wouldn't be far fetched to use the self-defense argument to support an abortion suit. . .that would be an interesting defense. > >
"One of the things I fear most is to be on my death bed wondering what I've done with my life and thinking it has meant nothing"- me
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage ~ ANAIS NIN
I guess what I meant was -- It's still murder but sometimes murder is acceptable?
Happily, there is no need to have any defense to performing or obtaining a first trimester abortion or a later abortion if the health or life of the mother is endangered. These are constitutionally protected rights. One frequently, of course, might need a bullet proof vest in order to exercise one's constitutionally protected rights...
(By the way, this all got started via the Presidential Candidates thread...)
Peace.
~ ~ ~ All meetings end in separation All acquisition ends in dispersion All life ends in death - The Buddha
29. "all i wanna know is" In response to Reply # 0
why dont we work on the situation of why woamn chose abortions! why is havin a child and being able to rasie it an issue? the system makes it hard change the system and eff the debate of abort or not to abort! every woman has a right to have childern so why we have to struggle to feed there mouths?
31. "RE: ..except in cases of rape, incest or when the mother's life is in da..." In response to Reply # 0
What I want to know is if all of these MEN are so anxious to save lives, why are they (ie: Gov. Bush) ALSO so anxious to kill so many on death row?! What's up with the double standards? You can't argue that one life is more valuable than another...it just ain't fair.
32. "RE: ..except in cases of rape, incest or when the mother's life is in da..." In response to Reply # 0
There are those who are categorically opposed to abortion...and they are the only ones I have any respect for...all the rest are not against abortion, just against it when it is not on their terms and in line with their morality.
33. "RE: ..except in cases of rape, incest or when the mother's life is in da..." In response to Reply # 0
my two cents (and sorry if it's already been said, i'm too impatient to read every reply ): if a woman has been raped, why should she have to come forward and say "i was raped" to get an abortion? if she is the victim of incest, why should she have to make her case public? does everyone have to know her private life? this whole issue is all about finding ways to control a woman's body and actions. plain and simple. think about how many people who are so pro-life that support the death penalty. if they were so concerned about "life," they would be right there in the mumia protests. ...hmmmm, now think about what their real reasons are.
book to read: From Abortion to Reproductive Freedom: Transforming a Movement, ed. Marlene Gerber Fried
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