There is a post titled, "There is a LIGHT that Shines?", which discuss the horrific trend in many African countries, of women using products to lighten their complexion.

Well, this weekend, I was at P.G.Plaza Mall (in D.C. area) and in a beauty supply store (next to Karibu Books) was a large display for a product called "Whitop"--advertised as a complexion lightner. Mind you, this was NOT advertised in the same manner as other fade creams such as Porcelana, Esoterica, Black Opal or Ambi. Most of those products specify spot treatment--albeit they are still skin lightners with the active ingredient hydroquinine (sp)--a bleaching agent used by dermatologists to lighten up dark blotches and scars.

While many in the previous post, seemed very disturbed by the message being sent, I must admit, that I was, nor have I ever been surprised. This loathing of darkness is prevalent in just about any culture and ethnic group that I can think of. For caucasians/europeans, the 'ideal' beauty is flaxen hair, blue eyed, fair of skin, yadda, yadda. In many asian cultures, there are the tails of the beautiful waif-like maidens with skin like pear or lotus blossoms--both milky white plants. There is not a society, ethnic group, or culture that I have heard of that does not signify black or dark with evil or unattractiveness.

In the end, we must affirmatively choose to change our mindset, if this detrimental way of thinking is to end. As a dear poetic colleague of mine wrote, "the only reason God said, 'let there be light', was because MY BLACKNESS ALREADY EXISTED."


peace, blessings and melanin

"This loathing of darkness is prevalent in just about any culture and ethnic group that I can think of. For caucasians/europeans, the 'ideal' beauty is flaxen hair, blue eyed, fair of skin, yadda, yadda. In many asian cultures, there are the tails of the beautiful waif-like maidens with skin like pear or lotus blossoms--both milky white plants."

where did you get this from. Is this your opinion or is there some book that discusses the beauty values of European and asian peoples?


K

It is an observation. Many of the books, stories and tales i have read or heard tend to have similar descriptions. My statement was not intended to be taken as the gospel truth. As far as a definitive piece of literature, no, i do not know of a comprehensive study on this matter. Again, my comment was based on my personal observations and not meant to generalize.

Do you know any Europeans- have you ever been to Europe?

What is the experience that leads you to draw these conclusions- I certainly hope its not an Americanized perspective of foreign ideas but it seems that way.

Why is it that you appear to be offended by my statement? Yes, I know some europeans--quite a few actually, from various walks of life. And yes, I have lived in Europe. And no, my view is not a totally Americanized view. It appears to me that you are: 1)taking my statement further than it was ever meant to be taken, and 2), i thought i made it clear that it was not to be perceived as a generalization of an entire group of people. Read my comment again....i said it was an observation. Am I wrong about the perception of the flaxen haired beauty? Am I wrong about some of the Asian folklore about the images of beautiful maidens? Have you seen the features of media personalities in the Asian and Latin arena? If so, would one be wrong to make the observation that, because there as so many people of 'light' complexion displayed in the media and in positions of power, that what is deemed acceptable would be what is lighter?

Never did I say that i was some sort of authority on the issue. And never did i say that all europeans thought fair and flaxen was the epitome of beauty. But that is the image that is thrust upon society.

Now, if you are european and have some thoughts on the topic at hand, then by all means, share them. If you have evidence that, in european cultures, that color is not an issue, then share it. I'm always willing to listen to another's perspective.

Perhaps, if i had said, that in many cultures and ethnic groups, similar issues exist (because they do).....would that have set well with you?

Thats a hoot.

anyway- you made a very bold statement and didnt bother to register it as opinion then so i asked for you to qualify your sources. Then when you backpedaled and said it was only a matter of your experience- I asked you to qualify that even farther- you did so but i still cant say that it makes you authority enough to speak on behalf of "just about any culture and ethnic group."

Im not offended- i just dont think that i by any means a fair statement it is at most a reasonable presumption but nonetheless a presumption.

In my personal experience I have known many Europeans; those who have both migrated here and even those who only visit- not to mention many who are European Americans. Suffice it to say that your opinion doesnt represent them and neither does your experience (some of them are dark skinned people themselves). If you have nothing solid to substantiate your claims then you are entitled to commit to your opinion just dont expect it to suffice as fact- much less the solid basis for a discussion.

no offense- but this supposed European ideology of hating blackness is tired and unsubstantiated- in all the times Ive seen it raised (it comes up alot) and accused of being the persistent plight of the world Ive never seen one book cited to back it up.

K

I don't mean to be rude, but I have read everything that has been posted on this thread up until the post I'm creating right now, and from what I can see a person posted her comment on this board, and you have gone completely out of your way to badger and antagonize this person for simply stating their opinion. Both of you have made valid points, but you are very simply arguing over an opinion that was simply stated by a person. Not once in reading any of these posts by her or you have I seen anyone say that they are an authority on any issue nor have I seen where either of you have said you are speaking on behalf of any race/culture. Rather than spend energy berating this person, why don't you take her opinion as just that...an opinion, and move on with your day. There is no need for her or you to validate your opinions and/or your experiences. Obviously you both have experienced different things, but don't attack the original post-er for expressing themselves. It's merely an opinion. Disagree if you like, but at least be a bit less hostile about it. Or...to save yourself some energy, don't read it, and move on to another post.

One thing that we know about message boards is this: It's really hard to get inflection right when reading someone else's post.

I can tell you from my experience with KoalaLove that he may challenge your opinion but he does not intend to attack you as a person. Because I've tangled with him a little bit and have read many threads in which he has discussed issues with others, I can tell you that he is well-informed and quite confident of his opinions, and can back up them up with citations. That means that those of us who are more intuitive about our opinions and/or who don't have time or resources to deeply research the content of our posts may feel that we are at a disadvantage when discussing an issue with K.

That does not mean, however, that intuitive opinions, which are formed for a good, if unconscious, reason, aren't welcomed. K is, I think, challenging you to look more deeply into your opinion and to learn more about how you formed it, so that you can be better prepared to abandon it if it no longer works for you, to ask the questions that will lead you to a greater understanding of it, and to stand up to him, in the spirit of this board, if you stand by your opinions.

The spirit of this board is such that we may discuss issues, we may become heated about our issues and our opinions, but we try not to resort to attacking the speaker.

Take another look at the thread and instead of thinking that anyone is attacking anyone else, read it as though each question is a genuine request for information and each statement is made with respect. Because I think that was each person's intent. 'Kay?

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

There's a method to the madness- I havent been around much lately so nobody's been able to see it.

The point is- if you cant stand firm to your opinion around here its virtually useless when you face a world that wholeheartedly believes the contrary. If we are aspiring or even training to be activists- then we must face the opposition with far more than our opinion.

If everyone is entitled to an opinion- then you need something more to change someone's mind- the best way to work up to that is to find that idea that you have and test it; find its faults and correct them, find its proofs and back them up.

Too often i see people who think believing in something is enough to make it true. And then people come along to support their entitlement to that belief. I never questioned the right to opinion- i challenged the veracity of that opinion. Im willing to bet that if anyone of you take the time to consider the things you think you already know you will find yourselves stepping down a very clear path of enlightment- it starts with changing your mind.

I do that everyday- Im not naturally opposed to anything anybody has to say- I am committed to the challenge of pounding away at the ideas until they can stand the test of battle- or at the very least make sense. Dont get me wrong- I share many of these views and perspectives but absolute agreement doesnt make for productive discussion.

Even if I come out lookin like an asshole- Id rather that than lettin one of my soldiers run off with a half cocked argument and meeting the same end.

If you cant or wont change your mind- then dont bother trying to change the world.

K

"One thing that we know about message boards is this: It's
really hard to get inflection right when reading someone
else's post."

Janey, thank you. I am perfectly aware that certain nuances are lost when communicating in this type of forum, and always keep that in mind when posting. It is never my intention to offend--its very unnecessary and unproductive.

"I can tell you from my experience with KoalaLove that he
may challenge your opinion but he does not intend to attack
you as a person."

Well, I am happy that you see your experience with KoalaLove as positive. At this moment, i do not feel the same. It is one thing to question or challenge a comment or opinion, but in this case, I feel he is reaching for an argument that is not there. He has implied many things which were not said--the exact opposite--which disturbs me. His so called vigor challenging a person comes off as a blatant attack. If he is knowledeable, and wishes to make a concrete point, then he should do so. He has attacked, yet has not given any solid references to substantiate his own accusations. All he has done is point a finger, basically saying, I dont agree with you, but has not said why. As if only his opinion is valid (i.e. its okay for him to have european acquaintances that apparently feel different from what i've said, versus me having likesaid acquaintances who may feel differently from his viewpoint. We are two different people, can not our different experiences have two different conclusions.)

I'm not insecure with my opinion and have the utmost respect for individuals who express themselves and, if I disagree their opinion, show information that might even change my opinion, because aint no shame in learning. I have posted to this forum with respect and believe that I should be treated in the same manner.




Because I've tangled with him a little bit
and have read many threads in which he has discussed
issues with others, I can tell you that he is well-informed
and quite confident of his opinions, and can back up them
up with citations.

I asked you a series of questions and made no other comments until you asked for my experience. I dont see how much more accomodating I could have been- the idea that i was disrespectful or attacking you is just not what is clearly demonstrated in the posts above.

No matter how you feel I can only that you will read them- and not read into what you think I might be saying.

K

"I asked you a series of questions and made no other comments until you asked for my experience. I dont see how much more accomodating I could have been- the idea that i was disrespectful or attacking you is just not what is clearly demonstrated in the posts above."

Obviously, it is a matter of perception. You perceived my comments one way. I saw it differently.

"No matter how you feel I can only that you will read them- and not read into what you think I might be saying."


*big happy azz kool aid smile* THAT is EXACTLY how I feel. That you have read into what you think I might be saying. I would ask you to clarify, not demand that you give me footnotes.

I saw your comments as they were posted on the page- i wanted you to make sure that your views were not misrepresented- but you had to fight me on it.

The point was this is not the belief system of all Europeans this is a condition that goes across race and ethnic boundaries and doesnt necessarily indicate the demeaning of darkness.

see back in the day i would stomped all over your post and told what i think- but people started complainin...

koala always thinks he's right, koala just talks over everybody else...

see what happens when i engage your ideas- you insist that im attacking you.

I cant win- I might as well go back to battlin spirit

K

What all of this is about is the intonation with which each person chooses to read the posts.

It's easier for me because I have context for K. Take a look in the archives (http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/DCForumID1/250.html) for some classic KoalaLove.

Argue with him vehemently but don't believe that he is attacking you by his tone. I don't think that K is shy or inhibited. If he wanted to attack you personally, he would have. Again, read his response on this thread, subject "Exactly." He is in earnest.

I love to see vigorous argumentation here. I hate to see misunderstandings.

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

"I don't think that K is shy or inhibited. If he wanted to attack you personally, he would have."

Actually Im extremely shy- although not so inhibitted. However I have quelled all intentions of personal attack- my personal philosophy doesnt accomodate such avenues.


while I never have the intent of attack- I will allow you to think that Im attacking you just to throw you off yoru game.

its all love though

"I represent peace and knowledge- but i will contradict that"

-Krs One

NuShooz says that you are a big sweetie in person but shy? I don't believe it -- I've seen you flirting on GD.

I appreciate it that you do not engage in ad hominem attacks. It's so much harder to argue the issues than it is to get personal. But if we were all sitting around in the same room, chatting, where we could see each others' faces and gestures and hear each others' voices, then we would be less apt to read in the threatening gestures, etc., that sometimes get misread here.

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

I didnt berate the original post nor its author- I asked that she cite a source for a very bold statement. Like I said she didnt claim it was her opinion until I raised the idea that it was nothing but.

While this board is definitely a place to express opinion I think to sit quietly by and not challenge opinions you disagree with- or are even offended by is a miscarriage of what this site can accomplish. I was just wondering to myself what this site would be like if we all just agreed with each other even if we didnt; or maybe if we all just let people's unvalidated opinions breed negativity and mischaracterization about other people's cultures. Maybe we could all sing We are the world- or as you suggest "don't read it, and move on to another post."

Deli- i suggest you take your own advice- if you dont like what ive had to say then dont read it and by all means be my guest and dont respond. You say that you cant see where anyone is speaking for any race or culture- but that is EXACTLY how this post started...

"This loathing of darkness is prevalent in just about any culture and ethnic group that I can think of. For caucasians/europeans, the 'ideal' beauty is flaxen hair, blue eyed, fair of skin, yadda, yadda."

If thats not speaking for someone else's culture I dont know what is- if you admit that you are no authority on the subject then dont get offended when somebody points it out as a matter of opinion and not a substantiated one at that.

As for this stuff

"There is no need for her or you to validate your opinions and/or your experiences."

That's nonsense- you should do that for your own sake- especially when engaging in discussion.

K

>I didnt berate the original post
>nor its author- I asked
>that she cite a source
>for a very bold statement.
>Like I said she didnt
>claim it was her opinion
>until I raised the idea
>that it was nothing but.

i agree that she made a statement. but i believe you have misinterpreted this person's statement. ordinarily, IN MY EXPERIENCE, i have noticed that most STATEMENTS made to this, or any other MESSAGE BOARD, have been spawned by a person's opinions, and it was never said that it was in fact their opinion...that was a given.

>
>
>While this board is definitely a
>place to express opinion I
>think to sit quietly by
>and not challenge opinions you
>disagree with- or are even
>offended by is a miscarriage
>of what this site can
>accomplish.

in that respect, yes, you are right. however, i did not say that you should sit idly by and not express your opinion in return. my statement and observation of what i read was a person posting their opinion and then you demanding that they substantiate their opinion. Now if the person had said this was fact, then I can understand your need for them to validate a point. but in this case i don't.

>I was just wondering
>to myself what this site
>would be like if we
>all just agreed with each
>other even if we didnt;
>or maybe if we all
>just let people's unvalidated opinions
>breed negativity and mischaracterization about
>other people's cultures. Maybe we
>could all sing We are
>the world- or as you
>suggest "don't read it, and
>move on to another post."

in that respect i do understand and agree. but again, your post is rather antagonistic in the way it was delivered/interpreted. it could all well be possible that i'm interpreting what you wrote in the complete opposite manner by which you intended for it to be perceived, but then i can say the same for your interpretation of Shepoet's original post.

>
>
>Deli- i suggest you take your
>own advice- if you dont
>like what ive had to
>say then dont read it
>and by all means be
>my guest and dont respond.
>You say that you cant
>see where anyone is speaking
>for any race or culture-
>but that is EXACTLY how
>this post started...
>
>"This loathing of darkness is prevalent
>in just about any culture
>and ethnic group that I
>can think of. For caucasians/europeans,
>the 'ideal' beauty is flaxen
>hair, blue eyed, fair of
>skin, yadda, yadda."

where in that line do you see her/him say "And I speak for so-and-so when I say..."This loathing of darkness...yada yada yada"? I don't see it anywhere. If she/he doesn't flat out say that they are speaking for someone, how can you interpret it as such? I read the comment, and I didn't see where she/he was saying that.

>
>If thats not speaking for someone
>else's culture I dont know
>what is- if you admit
>that you are no authority
>on the subject then dont
>get offended when somebody points
>it out as a matter
>of opinion and not a
>substantiated one at that.
>

she/he never claimed to be an authority. again, please show me where she/he says this, because I didn't see it, and I have read the post(s) a few times.

>As for this stuff
>
>"There is no need for her
>or you to validate your
>opinions and/or your experiences."
>
>That's nonsense- you should do that
>for your own sake- especially
>when engaging in discussion.
>
>K

if she/he or you were giving a dissertation, conducting a debate or symposium...then yes, validate away ... but it's just a human saying how they feel. just as you and i are humans...stating how we feel. our feeling do not have to be substantiated. i don't have to agree with you to respect your opinion, but i don't have to demand you validate your opinion to me, either.

let's just agree to disagree and move on.

Post #1

"where did you get this from. Is this your opinion or is there some book that discusses the beauty values of European and asian peoples?"

Thats all I asked- please tell me how this can be construed as an attack. it is a question to which the answer has been touted as an entitlement.

I asked that she either qualify this as opinion or as fact- and then I get 10 posts telling me not to question her opinion. The point is we can only presume that this was her opinion and she didnt say either way- thats why I asked her to.

You guys are cracking me up- if you think this was an attack- you need to check the archives.

K

>Post #1
>
>"where did you get this from.
>Is this your opinion or
>is there some book that
>discusses the beauty values of
>European and asian peoples?"
>
>Thats all I asked- please tell
>me how this can be
>construed as an attack. it
>is a question to which
>the answer has been touted
>as an entitlement.
>
>I asked that she either qualify
>this as opinion or as
>fact- and then I get
>10 posts telling me not
>to question her opinion. The
>point is we can only
>presume that this was her
>opinion and she didnt say
>either way- thats why I
>asked her to.
>

ahh...that you did ask. but when she did go on to say it was an observation, you again went on to say:

"Do you know any Europeans- have you ever been to Europe?
What is the experience that leads you to draw these conclusions- I certainly hope its not an Americanized perspective of foreign ideas but it seems that way. "

so again...you are demanding some sort of justification as to where her opinion comes from.

after she replied to your messages stating some of her experiences, you briefly went on to express some of yours, but then continued to say that her claim/opinion/statement wasn't substantiated by saying:

"...If you have nothing solid to substantiate your claims then you are entitled to commit to your opinion just dont expect it to suffice as fact- much less the solid basis for a discussion."

Not once did she say it was fact. and just as you posted, not until you asked did she state that it was her observation. once she did as you asked, you continued to dissect her wording. if that's not antagonistic, then what is it?

You are choosing to pick apart what a person has expressed as merely an opinion. i read your post, and the subsequent responses that were made from both of you, so I'm not discounting what either of you are saying. My problem with this is that while you say you are not behaving in an antagonistic fashion, you are. And the reason I say that is because it doesn't matter what answer or evidence she provides you...if it's not to YOUR liking then it's not substantial information for you, and then you feel that she can't hold a discussion on the issue.

Solid facts- were asked for she had none so I asked her to elaborate on her experience- if thats being antagonistic then what on earth were we supposed to talk about.

Hey I spent 3 years in Nam- dont nobody talk to me about it though.

Dont get it twisted Deli- i asked questions for elaboration. even if i was antagonizing (which i was not) it was in a fashion that she subscribed for. Why share your experience if you're unwilling to elaborate on them?

You can presume all the intentions you want- like I said- believing something doesnt make it true. And here you are antagonizing the supposed antagonist- Im gonna call you kettle from now on- you can just call me Black.

K

"Hey I spent 3 years in Nam- dont nobody talk to me about it though."

I KNEW you weren't part of the similac set. And neither am I. And if you would like to talk about Nam, cool. I'm willing to learn and listen--to opinions AND facts.

I wasnt even sperm during that time- but I still wouldnt be among the similac crowd

26 if anybody cares

"My problem with this is that while you say you are not behaving in an antagonistic fashion, you are. And the reason I say that is because it doesn't matter what answer or evidence she provides you...if it's not to YOUR liking then it's not substantial information for you, and then you feel that she can't hold a discussion on the issue."

The idea that Im behaving antagonistically is your opinion and even though you are entitled to that- you're still wrong and since thats my opinion (much less the truth) I have every right to say it. i even have the right to say that the statements expressed in this thread are wrong- the author even admitted it. i didnt do that at first cuz I sincerely wanted to see where she got these ideas. I asked for elaboration- not justification. Justification is what you have asked me for despite your posturing for the sake of humankind and tehir entitlement to speech.

If its not in a book or referrenced somehow in practice then its not substantial- that means that there's nothing I can refer to and come to the specific conclusion. if its a matter of opinion then say so or at least admit it courteously when asked- if you dont then I cant even reference the conclusion that im being asked to make.

If you have a problem with the way I discuss matters then you've had and used the opportunity to address- as such you and I are in the same bout Sparky.

The difference is I asked her to explain herself- whereas you made insulting judgements about my intentions.

either way youve had absolutely nothing to offer this thread or the topic at hand- your posts here have been useless other than to deflect and distract the topics raised- to you I offer my most heartfelt YUCK

now thats antagonistic

K

"either way youve had absolutely nothing to offer this thread or the topic at hand- your posts here have been useless other than to deflect and distract the topics raised- to you I offer my most heartfelt YUCK

now thats antagonistic"


Now see, if I still didnt feel the way I did about how you addressed my comment earlier, just based on the comment above, I swear, I woulda walked hot coals to bring you some fried chicken...but with my luck, you're a vegan.

>The idea that Im behaving antagonistically
>is your opinion and even
>though you are entitled to
>that- you're still wrong and
>since thats my opinion (much
>less the truth) I have
>every right to say it.

AH-HA!!! Right there...you have just contradicted yourself and your entire argument regarding the entire discussion! As you have said, it is your opinion. But when shepoet expressed HER opinion...you questioned it, just as I questioned you.

>If you have a problem with
>the way I discuss matters
>then you've had and used
>the opportunity to address- as
>such you and I are
>in the same bout Sparky.

Well, then let the sparks fly, baby. Because I am kettle, just as you are Black.

>
>either way youve had absolutely nothing
>to offer this thread or
>the topic at hand- your
>posts here have been useless
>other than to deflect and
>distract the topics raised- to
>you I offer my most
>heartfelt YUCK

you are right, koala. i have not offered ANYTHING to this topic or thread. I never intended to do so. My intent was quite clear and that was defend what appears to be a public flogging of a lone poster's opinion. Now regarding your "YUCK", i gladly accept it with warm and open loving arms and send and "I love you" to you in its place.

>
>now thats antagonistic
>
>K

Now...my one and final question for you...tell me more about 'Nam...I'm always up for a good history lesson.

>>The idea that Im behaving antagonistically
>>is your opinion and even
>>though you are entitled to
>>that- you're still wrong and
>>since thats my opinion (much
>>less the truth) I have
>>every right to say it.
>
>AH-HA!!! Right there...you have just contradicted
>yourself and your entire argument
>regarding the entire discussion!
>As you have said, it
>is your opinion. But
>when shepoet expressed HER opinion...you
>questioned it, just as I
>questioned you.

nope i asked questions- I dont remember seeing one in your post- you said specifically that I was an antagonist. Thats not questioning thats insulting.

>Well, then let the sparks fly,
>baby. Because I am
>kettle, just as you are
>Black.

Im Black and Im proud kid- you seem to have this thing for telling me what you think I am when Ive already made it quite clear. Koala- antagonistic that ish aint new- Im just saying if this thread was antagonism you aint seen nothin yet.

>>either way youve had absolutely nothing
>>to offer this thread or
>>the topic at hand- your
>>posts here have been useless
>>other than to deflect and
>>distract the topics raised- to
>>you I offer my most
>>heartfelt YUCK
>
>you are right, koala. i
>have not offered ANYTHING to
>this topic or thread.
>I never intended to do
>so. My intent was
>quite clear and that was
>defend what appears to be
>a public flogging of a
>lone poster's opinion. Now
>regarding your "YUCK", i gladly
>accept it with warm and
>open loving arms and send
>and "I love you" to
>you in its place.

You dont love me CHUMP- I AM THE LOVE!

>>now thats antagonistic
>>
>>K
>
>Now...my one and final question for
>you...tell me more about 'Nam...I'm
>always up for a good
>history lesson.

I dont know shit about the nam- remember what janey was saying about not having the utility of inflexion.

I wasnt in the nam- I grew up in Detroit though.

K

>
>nope i asked questions- I dont
>remember seeing one in
>your post- you said specifically
>that I was an antagonist.
>Thats not questioning thats insulting.
>

you questioned, you poked, you proded, and antagonized. (woops...there i go insulting you again...i have to break myself out of that)

>
>>Well, then let the sparks fly,
>>baby. Because I am
>>kettle, just as you are
>>Black.
>
>Im Black and Im proud kid-
>you seem to have this
>thing for telling me what
>you think I am when
>Ive already made it quite
>clear. Koala- antagonistic that ish
>aint new- Im just saying
>if this thread was antagonism
>you aint seen nothin yet.
>

never questioned your blackness. but if this is nothing in comparison to upcoming antagonistic acts...then so be it.

>
>>>either way youve had absolutely nothing
>>>to offer this thread or
>>>the topic at hand- your
>>>posts here have been useless
>>>other than to deflect and
>>>distract the topics raised- to
>>>you I offer my most
>>>heartfelt YUCK
>>
>>you are right, koala. i
>>have not offered ANYTHING to
>>this topic or thread.
>>I never intended to do
>>so. My intent was
>>quite clear and that was
>>defend what appears to be
>>a public flogging of a
>>lone poster's opinion. Now
>>regarding your "YUCK", i gladly
>>accept it with warm and
>>open loving arms and send
>>and "I love you" to
>>you in its place.
>
>You dont love me CHUMP- I
>AM THE LOVE!
>

To quote some poster I read earlier:

"where did you get this from. Is this your opinion or is there some book that discusses..." where you are the love?

>>>now thats antagonistic
>>>
>>>K

are we done going back and forth on this now? i think we have said all that's needed to be said. you hate me, i love you...i'm sparky the kettle and your pot, the black antagonist who was in 'Nam...it's all over and done with...why are we still talking about it? can we argue about something else now?

"Thats a hoot."

No, what is a hoot, is how you insist on taking my comment totally out of context. If you were not offended, then you must obviously be very bored.

"anyway- you made a very bold statement and didnt bother to
register it as opinion then so i asked for you qualify your
sources."

One, I never presented my comment as a fact. I clearly said that it was just an observation, that I, as one individual had made. You, it seems, have twisted that for the sake of arguing.

"{Then when you backpedaled and said it was only a matter of your experience- I asked you to qualify that even farther- you did so but i still cant say that it makes you authority enough to speak on behalf of "just about any culture and ethnic group."


Again, go back and read my comment and tell me where i said that i was an authority, nor did I present my statement as that of one of authority. As for speaking on behalf of a particular group of people--once again you have misconstrued my comment.

"Im not offended- i just dont think that i by any means a fair
statement it is at most a reasonable presumption but nonetheless
a presumption."

And in reading this, I would say....based on your experience and your views. And I'm cool with this. So why can I not have a view that is based on my own personal experiences and observations?

"In my personal experience I have known many Europeans; those
who have both migrated here and even those who only visit- not
to mention many who are European Americans. Suffice it to say
that your opinion doesnt represent them and neither does your
experience (some of them are dark skinned people themselves)."

In MY personal experience, I have and do know many europeans, latinos and asians--those who have migrated and those who visit--just as you claim to have. My family is half european. I never once said that my view respresented all of them. Nor did I imply that my experience was totally represented of them. You are the only one who insinuated such a thing. Instead of attacking me for my view, why don't you share YOUR experience instead of this futile attempt to discount someone elses?

"you have nothing solid to substantiate your claims then you are entitled to commit to your opinion just dont expect it to suffice as fact- much less the solid basis for a discussion."

Again, I did NOT submit my comment as some sort of fact. If you feel that I have not offered anything for a solid discussion, then why bother to respond?

"no offense- but this supposed European ideology of hating
blackness is tired and unsubstantiated- in all the times Ive seen it raised (it comes up alot) and accused of being the persistent
plight of the world Ive never seen one book cited to back it up."


Now I aint easy to offend, but this statement here did come off very offensive. Never did I say or infer to the 'supposed European ideology of hating blackness'. My comment was never about or directed towards that mode of thinking. If you noticed, I mentioned that ALL ethnic groups appear to have the same issue.
In the history of anglo/euro culture, there has ALWAYS been the image of the fair, flaxen haired, blue eyed beauty--deemed more beautiful than the brunette. I mean, look at 20 century history alone. An entire generation of of people in Europe willingly followed a leader who deemed Nordic features as superior. Read Pearl S. Buck's writings (noted author who spent most of her life in China) and the descriptions that she has written of regarding what was considered beautiful. A ruddy skinned woman from the country would never have been deemed as pretty, compared to a city-bred woman, being pale and slight of frame. Issues of light and dark existed in Asia way before colonization. Never did I say that the problems of light and dark that exist in other ethnic groups were attributed to European hatred of blackness. I did, however imply that there were color issues with all races.

Now, for the third time, why dont you share your views instead of trying to do a lame re-enactment of Bubba and Al's debate. )

>"Thats a hoot."
>
>No, what is a hoot, is
>how you insist on taking
>my comment totally out of
>context. If you were not
>offended, then you must obviously
>be very bored.

Thats not really a hoot. Dont step ahead of yourself- the context I supposedly took your statement out of didnt surface until a couple of posts later. I quoted you exactly as you said it- there was no mention of opinion or experience whatsoever so i ased you to regard it as such unless you had a source to go along with it.

>One, I never presented my comment
>as a fact. I clearly
>said that it was just
>an observation, that I, as
>one individual had made. You,
>it seems, have twisted that
>for the sake of arguing.

please show me where the word "observation" appeared in that post

>Again, go back and read my
>comment and tell me where
>i said that i was
>an authority, nor did I
>present my statement as that
>of one of authority.

You made the statement- i asked you to back it up- you immediately concluded that I was taking your statement out of context but the fact is I was only asking that you put it into context. Ive read the first post- okayplayer - i quoted it. I asked you to validate it- somebody please tell me how that is unreasonable.

>As for speaking on behalf
>of a particular group of
>people--once again you have misconstrued
>my comment.

You claim your experience entitled you offer opinions on the beauty idealogy of "just about any culture and ethnic group"- that is speaking on the behalf of a particular group- please tell me what has been misconstrued.

>"Im not offended- i just dont
>think that i by any
>means a fair
>statement it is at most a
>reasonable presumption but nonetheless
>a presumption."
>
>And in reading this, I would
>say....based on your experience and
>your views. And I'm cool
>with this. So why can
>I not have a view
>that is based on my
>own personal experiences and observations?

You can I only asked that you tell us where you got it from.

>In MY personal experience, I have
>and do know many europeans,
>latinos and asians--those who have
>migrated and those who visit--just
>as you claim to have.
>My family is half european.
>I never once said that
>my view respresented all of
>them. Nor did I imply
>that my experience was totally
>represented of them. You are
>the only one who insinuated
>such a thing. Instead of
>attacking me for my view,
>why don't you share YOUR
>experience instead of this futile
>attempt to discount someone elses?

I only asked you to validate your statement. All this other drama is on you. Im glad that you admit that this statement doesnt represent all European peoples.

>"you have nothing solid to substantiate
>your claims then you are
>entitled to commit to your
>opinion just dont expect it
>to suffice as fact- much
>less the solid basis for
>a discussion."
>
>Again, I did NOT submit my
>comment as some sort of
>fact. If you feel that
>I have not offered anything
>for a solid discussion, then
>why bother to respond?

I asked that you give us something solid to go on- otherwise we're just discussing your opinion- oh wait thats what we're doing after all!

>"no offense- but this supposed European
>ideology of hating
>blackness is tired and unsubstantiated- in
>all the times Ive seen
>it raised (it comes up
>alot) and accused of being
>the persistent
>plight of the world Ive never
>seen one book cited to
>back it up."
>
>
>Now I aint easy to offend,
>but this statement here did
>come off very offensive. Never
>did I say or infer
>to the 'supposed European ideology
>of hating blackness'. My comment
>was never about or directed
>towards that mode of thinking.
>If you noticed, I mentioned
>that ALL ethnic groups appear
>to have the same issue.

and you mentioned Europeans in particular. You claim that all ethnic groups have this issue- but deny the fact that you inferred the "supposed European ideology of hating blackness"

you're confusing me



>In the history of anglo/euro culture,
>there has ALWAYS been the
>image of the fair, flaxen
>haired, blue eyed beauty--deemed more
>beautiful than the brunette. I
>mean, look at 20 century
>history alone. An entire generation
>of of people in Europe
>willingly followed a leader who
>deemed Nordic features as superior.
> Read Pearl S. Buck's
>writings (noted author who spent
>most of her life in
>China) and the descriptions that
>she has written of regarding
>what was considered beautiful. A
>ruddy skinned woman from the
>country would never have been
>deemed as pretty, compared to
>a city-bred woman, being pale
>and slight of frame. Issues
>of light and dark existed
>in Asia way before colonization.
>Never did I say that
>the problems of light and
>dark that exist in other
>ethnic groups were attributed to
>European hatred of blackness. I
>did, however imply that there
>were color issues with all
>races.
>
>Now, for the third time, why
>dont you share your views
>instead of trying to do
>a lame re-enactment of Bubba
>and Al's debate. )

I have shared my views- I was asking you to qualify yours.

K

Koala,

You haven't shared any views...you've pulled things totally out of context in order to play devil's advocate. It aint too amusing and, unfortunately, it does not expose the Koala that Janey described in her post. Too bad, as I would have liked to have met that person. Oh, and in your post describing your motives and what drives you.....please remember that one size does not fit all. If, perhaps, you had taken the time and made the effort to talk, maybe your comments would not be seen as an attack. Believe me, I read your comments to me, and like Scooby Doo, all i could think was "Bargghhh???" Where did all that come from. I still feel you really went waaaaaaaaaaay out of your way with my post.

In reference to your inquiry about the word observation...very slick No, it is not in the original post. But, in my first post to you, I clarified that my comment was an observation. But it seems, according to you, anything but the original post is discarded--which IMO, makes for an unproductive discussion. You assumed so much about me, feeling some need to try and 'force' me to validate arguments that I feel aren't even there.

Observation: 1. originally, observance, as of laws, customs, etc. 2. a)the act, practice, or power of noticing. b)something noticed.


Will I concede to your comments? No. I truly believe, based on my personal experience, images in media, books, and even history, that there is a deep seeded problem in the major ethnic groups regarding light and dark.

Personally: I have seen, with my own interactions with people from various ethnic groups that for some color is an issue. I have stated asian images in literature and in media regarding color. My point in even bringing up european culture was not to imply some 'eurocentric hatred of black'--but to state that, even within their culture, as is with black and latino culture, there are issues of color. I never implied that in all of their culture feel this way or experiences it. But it is a reality. Folklore, media images various european countries and groups lean towards light. Look at latin magazines and television. Brown skinned people are usualy portrayed in positions of servitude or bufoonary. You have African people in certain parts of Africa who will say that they are Persian (the Persians ruled in the Ivory Coast for several hundred years), versus saying they are African because to acknowledge an african heritage is to acknowledge an ancestry of slavery. (Henry Gates' Africa Documentary) I know of AfroCubans, as dark as ebony, who will tell you that they are not african, but latino. I have Mexican counterparts who have acknowledged their black heritage, yet there are many who will say that, there are and never were black Mexicans.
Even after explaining certain comments to you, you seem to totally disregard any explanation it seems for the benefit of arguing. No drama. Just citing that the game plan you use, is not a 'one size fits all'. Again, it is one thing to challenge someone. It is another to attack.

Images in the media: The images displayed in magazines, videos, commericals, movies...they are not valid? Take a peek at Telemundo and Univision. Look at the the world news programs on PBS that feature newscasters from various countries. Even the images on B.E.T (black exploitation television--yeah, harsh, but they could be doing better). Various J-pop (japanese pop) magazines and images.

I do however, still take offense to your implications of 'european hatred of blackness'. The last part of my original post was not in reference to that at all. It was directed at the original article in the previous post, that WE as a people must change our mindset. All people. That the self hatred and dislike for the very things that make each ethnic group unique are the things that we should accept and cherish. I feel your 'european hatred' comment implied that I was making another 'the man did this to us statement'. And that is not the kind of person I am.

I also commented that, within the various ethnic groups, that color seems to be a prominent issue. That at some degree or another, most ethnic groups have some color issue. And by mentioning Europeans and those of european descent, I was implying that they too, are prone to have color issues within.

And to think, you didnt even comment about the FACT that there is a skin lightenging product that is being sold her in the U.S., just like the products sold in Africa, and advertised specifically as a beauty product that will lighten the entire complexion. That's what it was really about.


Anyhoo, post peace.

I asked you a series of questions to get you to elaborate on the ideas that you were presenting- you must admit that the supposed context I took your statements out of- the idea that this is your opinion wasnt there until i asked you whether it was your opinion or not.

You claim that you clearly called it an observation in your original post and then when i point out to you that the word "observation" didnt come up once in that post you call me slick- thats incorrigible.

Your first response signified that it was your opinion and then I asked you to elaborate on that opinion- you did so. But here you're claiming that my intention was that "anything but the original post is discarded"- thats nonsense cuz I responded specifically to your admission that it was your opinion. Then you claim I assumed something about you- like what - I asked you for an elaboration not a validation.

Whatever- my only intention was that we not abide by YOUR opinions in that they represent other cultures unfairly. Even you finally admitted that this doesnt represent all Europeans but it took you like 10 posts to get there until then your argument was that this condition was "prevalent" in European and many other cultures.

Im surprised that in your attempts to peep game you didnt see it coming. You already admitted what I was encouraging you to say- and you think you're still fighting against me.

poet- you've seen the koala that janey described and you dont even know it- the koala that you're talking about you dont even know the half


K

She didn't know that she was posting in the K world. Don't be chasing people off the boards, now. The more the merrier, remember.

Just because I went home and cried myself to sleep after the first time I encountered you doesn't mean everyone has to.

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

Its that baptism of fire- I got alot going on in my head so when I invite people in it might be a little rough at first but if it were any other way- you wouldnt appreciate the end results.


Its the difference between courtesy and sincerity- my primary intent is to be honest in my discourse (Lhun Tzu- if y'al know whats up). If this offends anyone Im sorry- but it wont change - and if you look at the record it has endeared even those among you who've hated me for it.

I think some of the best conversations Ive had here have been flames- at the very least I know the person on the other end is keeping it real.

K

And that's what we appreciate about you. There ought to be a click through warning when you come to Activist: Warning! This board patrolled by KoalaLove!

Actually, compared to some of the stuff I've seen posted on this site, you are a great big WIMP! A fluffy teddy bear (a koala bear, I guess)!


Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

..I aint goin no where Janey....sista done took her shoes AND her earrings off.. Besides, he's a lot like the boy in grade school, that all the girls run from cus they think he's got cooties....then you realize, he's pretty harmless. *wink*

"You claim that you clearly called it an observation in yiour original post and then when I point out to you that the word "observation" didnt come up once in that post you call me slick-thats incorrigible."

Hey, you're antagonistic, I'm incorrigible. I can live with that. But yes, slick you are ya lil' whippersnappe Go back and read the post. I called you slick because you harped only on the very first post. I specifically posted that, in your slickness, you were correct, that i did not use the word "observation" in the originating post--I should have but then again, given whom i'm dealing with, i dont believe it would make a difference. I did, dearheart, however, clarify it in my FIRST response to you, that it was an observation. Yet, in subsequent posts, you continue to infer that I stated my comment as an actual fact--when I never did. You even told Deli Del in your response to your post "And another thing..." that you "sincerely wanted to see where she got these ideas. I asked for elaboration--not justification". Now tell me, does this sound like a request for an eloboration or a demand for justification?
And I quote from your first post titled, "just tell me...":

"where did you get this from. Is this your oopinion or is there some book that dicusses the beauty values of European and asian peoples?"

Son, that sounds like demand for justification.....a request for actual documentation. And even then, I did not take offense to your post. I in turn replied, " It is an observation....my statement was not intended to be taken as the gospel truth. As for a definitive piece of literature, no, I do not know of a comprehensive study on this matter....my comment was based on personal observations and not meant to generalize."

Now, you stated in a previous post that, from your personal observation/views, you knew european individuals who did not fit my comments made in the original post. (see your post "Thats a hoot") You clearly used your own personal experience to say that my opinion doesn't represent them. Funny, I NEVER said my opinion represented them. That was implied by you. One mo' funny thing. Why come....(yeah, i said why come)....why come, you can use your personal experience as a means of explanation and I cant? We BOTH have stated to know european individuals. We have two different views supposedly brought about by a similar personal experience by two DIFFERENT people with different outcomes. There is no right or wrong. Just different. Yet, you are hell bent to tell me that my view is wrong--just cus you say so??? Again, as Scooby would say, "Barrrrtgghhh???"

Now, you are telling me "my first response signified that it was your opinion and then I asked you to elaborate on that opinion--you did so." Glad to see you finally admitted that i did. You've been stating over and over that i did NOT elaborate on my opinion. Or perhaps, do you mean, i did not VALIDATE my opinion, according to the world of K? And you did imply that you wanted validation by asking if I "know any Europeans-have you been to Europe?" You also stated that you're "only intention was that we not abide by YOUR opinions in that they represent other cultures unfairly. Even you finally admitted that this doesnt represent all Europeans but it took you like 10 posts to get there...." This is not true. Again, in my very first response to you, I specifically said, "...my commment was based on my personal observations and not meant to generalize." In my second response to you (re: what is your experience?), I again stated, "...I thought I made it clear that it was not (the comment) to be perceived as a generalization of an entire group of people." You continued to imply that I made my comment as if it were factual, then, when i clarified my mean, you accused me of backpeddling and then implied as if I had misrepresented myself as some sort of authority on the issue. (see post Koala European!?) None of those accusations you made were in my original post, nor in subsequent posts.

Then to add further insult, you then imply that I am representative of a "supposed European ideology of hating blackness..." Neither my original post or subsequent post ever infered such a thing. Not once did i ever state or imply the "hating of blackness" was perpetrated or confined only to europeans. I merely stated that i felt it was a coincidence, based on MY observations, that it appears as if every major ethnic group has some sort of negative issue regarding race. This would INCLUDE europeans--that they too may have intra-racial issues.

Also, there were no "attempts to peep game". And you never "encouraged anything" out of me. I, have been saying the same thing from the beginning. You however, have antagonized, contradicted kand been incorrigble.

And no, i have yet to see the Koala that Janey has described. But, if he would, as I have requested for a second time, go back to the original purpose of the post, which was to followup on the FACT that there is a product being blatantly advertised as a skin lightening cream for the entire complexion, perhaps I will see the Koala that she has referred to. I would even be willing to hear your insight on something i did say in the original post and whether or not you've thought of the same thing--about the disdain for dark or black skin. Mainly prior to precolonization in asian countries (japan & china). I am not aware of this issue prior to precolonization in africa and among the indigenious people of now latin countries. But it appears that intra-racial issues exits in the major ethnic groups.

So c'mon, i dare you...be civil now. Show me now...dont make an ol' gal hafta go all da way back in da archives to see that you could actually be nice. Besides, I aint got much time...momma done think she done found a gray hurh messin' wit you.

.greetings.

Isn't it ironic that this 'beauty' supply shop sits directly beside Karibu? Besides the fact that we're buying these products, what burns me is that it is usually someone outside of our community (one of another ethnicity) selling them to us.

.persist.

yes, but from my own experience, what i've been seeing is that this seems to be common among different ethnicities.

Thnx. for the clarification. I'm so used to looking @ most issues from a black perspective that I didn't even concentrate on that part of your initial thread. I'm working on broadening my perspective.