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illosopher
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596 posts
Tue Jan-23-01 08:22 AM

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"Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution"


          

Last Night I was at the Saul Williams poetry read/lecture @ the University of Pittsburgh. Saul was mad ill, I gained mad respect for the cat. During the lecture Saul began to talk about the struggle of the 60-70's compared to our generation. He began to say that the cats of that era's Pro-Blackness was neccesary at that time for us take on more Human issues of this day and age. He said James Brown said i'm Black and Proud so he didn't have to say, cuz He(Saul) IS THAT. He went to talk about more global issues and things. Someone in the crowd asked if he (as an artist) felt an obligation to the Black Liberation movement. He said he an obligation himself first. He said that he had argument about this wit' Amiri Baraka who said, you must be in an organization to be a Revolutionary, Saul said you must organize your damn self before organize other people. He then explained how we find a common humanity beyond race, gender, sexuality ect., he said that is our movement not a primarily black struggle but a more human struggle. He then criticized the 60-70's movement for being positive but very Homophobic and Sexist and centered upon the Black Man. He then talked about a workshop he had with Amiri who called a woman lost feeling like she had to deal with ther gender and sexuality as lesbian before she deals with her race. Amiri said, "in their eyes you'll always be black first." Saul said '"no Amiri you're lost as long you're concered with what you are in their eyes!"
At this point an elder woman in the crowd jumped up and said your disrespeeting an elder and began a 10 minute tirade on Saul that ended in the woman being removed from the auditorium, She called him disrespectful, demanded he contribute whatver he got paid to speak that night to the reparations movement. Saul handled it mad well, he was caught mad off guard, the crowd was stunned. Anyway i was talking to an elder who there wit' me afterwards and he felt he dead wrong for doing that, he said "The Elders can't antagonize the youth!"

I say all of that to raise several questions...
1)Are Black artists obligated to a Black movement or a Human movement?
2)Should the Elders step out of leadership positions they've been holding since the 60-70's and let younger blood with new ideas take riegns.
3)Was Saul wrong?(Based on the limited info i gave you)
4)Is it wrong to point out the mistakes of the elders?
5)How can Hip-Hop generation continue to make progressive change?

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
briefly
Jan 23rd 2001
1
RE: briefly
Jan 23rd 2001
2
one mo gin
Jan 23rd 2001
3
RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution
Jan 23rd 2001
4
RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution
Jan 23rd 2001
5
RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution
Jan 23rd 2001
6
RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution
Jan 23rd 2001
7
Respectfully disagree
Jan 23rd 2001
8
      RE: Respectfully disagree
Jan 23rd 2001
15
           In America
Jan 24th 2001
18
                RE: In America
Jan 24th 2001
20
                     I'm open for ideas
Jan 24th 2001
22
RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution
Jan 23rd 2001
9
RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution
Jan 23rd 2001
10
Ye,Yea
Jan 23rd 2001
12
      RE: Ye,Yea
Jan 25th 2001
28
RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution
mulattomoon
Jan 23rd 2001
11
RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution
Sierra
Jan 23rd 2001
13
RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution
Jan 23rd 2001
14
At the end of the day...
Jan 23rd 2001
16
so 35 yrs of opportunity
Jan 24th 2001
19
RE: so 35 yrs of opportunity
Jan 24th 2001
21
      ...
Jan 24th 2001
24
           RE: ...
Jan 28th 2001
35
the situation worsens?
Jan 25th 2001
30
RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution
dysfunctmonk
Jan 23rd 2001
17
Reparations?
J_Hayes
Jan 24th 2001
23
RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution
Jan 24th 2001
25
RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution
Jan 25th 2001
26
      I agree
Jan 25th 2001
27
           RE: I agree
Jan 26th 2001
31
RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution
Jan 25th 2001
29
RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution
Jan 26th 2001
32
      Couldn't have said it as good...
Jan 27th 2001
33
      I gots to holler at you in the 'Burgh sometime...
Jan 27th 2001
34
RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution
Amaryllis
Jan 28th 2001
36
answering the questions~
Jan 28th 2001
37

BooDaah
Charter member
32690 posts
Tue Jan-23-01 08:39 AM

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1. "briefly"
In response to Reply # 0


          

>1)Are Black artists obligated to a
>Black movement or a Human
>movement?

i don't believe you can make anyone feel an obligation. if an individual DOES not feel obligated, then those who do have to simply continue the fight without them

>2)Should the Elders step out of
>leadership positions they've been holding
>since the 60-70's and let
>younger blood with new ideas
>take riegns.

not necessarily "step down/out" but they do need to understand theat new times call for new ideas and be open to hearing them. "younger blood", in turn, should respect, but not deify, the leadership provided by elders. in cases where ideologies diverge, being a bucket crab isn't going to make things better. we don't have to share the same methods to reach the same goal


>3)Was Saul wrong?(Based on the limited
>info i gave you)

seemed to just be sharing is view. it may not have been smart to say (in light of the audience), but he's still entitled. as i'm sure he knows, when you share an unpopular idea you gotta be prepared to take a certai amount of heat.

>4)Is it wrong to point out
>the mistakes of the elders?

no. but one should still (i believe) not cross the line into disrespect.

>5)How can Hip-Hop generation continue to
>make progressive change?

if we only knew....

the short answer is "keep fighting"


  

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illosopher
Charter member
596 posts
Tue Jan-23-01 08:52 AM

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2. "RE: briefly"
In response to Reply # 1


          

Great Insight, Boodah, i wish you could've been there it was ill!

  

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DPfan4life
Charter member
179 posts
Tue Jan-23-01 09:00 AM

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3. "one mo gin"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Saul said you
>must organize your damn self
>before organize other people.

hmmmmm maybe if i decided 2 lead people 2 a path of righteousness with the lord yet have private sexcepades with other women knowing im married if......



white people only make up 8% of the world

"the differences are like pepsi and coke but both of them are bad for you"-M1 of dead prez on the democrat republican presidential race

Big Boi freestyles, I don't," Dre admits. "Because I think too much. But I'll write one verse that'll crush your whole album."

"these are the times that try a nigga soul population control we waisten time chasen gold they after more than your mind they want your nation as a whole its time 2 take off the blindfold"-Dead Prez

  

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k_orr
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80197 posts
Tue Jan-23-01 09:32 AM

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4. "RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


>1)Are Black artists obligated to a
>Black movement or a Human
>movement?

Well they shouldn't be, but often times we shame them into it. You can't do it for you, you end up doing it for us. It is part of the group psychology that affects us all. So when Tiger wood's does well, we praise him. When some random black person murders someone, we feel that too.

>2)Should the Elders step out of
>leadership positions they've been holding
>since the 60-70's and let
>younger blood with new ideas
>take riegns.

No. We, the hip hop generation, need to get our own horse and carriage. Let them handle what they know best.

>3)Was Saul wrong?(Based on the limited
>info i gave you)

No.

>4)Is it wrong to point out
>the mistakes of the elders?

No, even if you are disrespecting them. They have too much power over our minds anyway. We can learn from them, but I've met too many elders that said desegregation came too early.

>5)How can Hip-Hop generation continue to
>make progressive change?

We can assess our problems and solutions, and pursue them.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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polorican
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1594 posts
Tue Jan-23-01 10:09 AM

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5. "RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Godspeed

I'm not black so you may not want my point of view or do you? I agree with saul. Pro-black solutions are not as good or better yet "effective" as solutions that involve first humanity than whatever "your" cause is...please refer to "build and destroy" by bdp.

one

===
Your OKP boxing specialist since 1999
===
WE will be here forever, WE will STILL be here forever, GET WHAT IM SAYIN’ – FOREVER!!! © KRS1

  

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polorican
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1594 posts
Tue Jan-23-01 10:11 AM

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6. "RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

Godspeed

Yo illosopher are u a pitt student? Just curious!

===
Your OKP boxing specialist since 1999
===
WE will be here forever, WE will STILL be here forever, GET WHAT IM SAYIN’ – FOREVER!!! © KRS1

  

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illosopher
Charter member
596 posts
Tue Jan-23-01 11:57 AM

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7. "RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution"
In response to Reply # 6


          

Yo Polo, first let me say i agree with you, i think we must get to a point when understand that oppresion isn't unique among any people. We must learn from all the ways human oppress each and find the human imperfection that causes us to treat each other in unsavory ways.

Secondly naw, i'm not a Pitt student, i just finshed school at Indiana University of PA, a large public school an hour east of Pittsburgh or 4 hours west of Philadelphia. I'm a native Pittsburgher though....

  

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k_orr
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80197 posts
Tue Jan-23-01 12:04 PM

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8. "Respectfully disagree"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

Any "humanist" approach to things that affect the African American community, often deny the cultural differences and nuances within that community.

Particular solutions for particular problems, not one size fits all.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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illosopher
Charter member
596 posts
Tue Jan-23-01 03:59 PM

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15. "RE: Respectfully disagree"
In response to Reply # 8


          

I'm not proposing a humanist solution, i'm saying all oppression is due a human element not a racial element. I don't beleive in race i believe in culture, as long people look at stuff racially they will always be victimized, we must regain our culture which is neccesary for most humans, to thrive. The mistake we made in past is too get too involved in racial politics and not cultural reconstruction.

peace

  

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k_orr
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80197 posts
Wed Jan-24-01 04:41 AM

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18. "In America"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

Race is very much intertwined with culture, at least for African Americans.

There is no separation of the race element into a general oppression one. Thus you need to address the problem as it is presented.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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illosopher
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596 posts
Wed Jan-24-01 06:28 AM

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20. "RE: In America"
In response to Reply # 18


          

The problem is that we have used the same appraoches for years, dealing with race, we deal with on the terms of the oppresors we need to transcend that shit.

  

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k_orr
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80197 posts
Wed Jan-24-01 06:43 AM

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22. "I'm open for ideas"
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

But let's say you want to do a clothing drive, food bank, where do you locate it?

Sometimes a "central" location favors one group over another, or in the case of Austin, the pockets of the disenfranchised are all over, and without good means of transportation to a central location.

Sometimes you can make a race-neutral decision that has racial consequences.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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MellofromGI
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629 posts
Tue Jan-23-01 01:23 PM

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9. "RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution"
In response to Reply # 0


          

>He
>went to talk about more
>global issues and things. Someone
>in the crowd asked if
>he (as an artist) felt
>an obligation to the Black
>Liberation movement.
Am I that far gone, I really didn't know of any developed "movement" I know there are a whole lotta disillusioned, disenfrancised and just straight up tiiii(r)ed assed black folk in this country and worldwide, but movements as far as I know them are null.

>He said he
>an obligation himself first. He
>said that he had argument
>about this wit' Amiri Baraka
>who said, you must be
>in an organization to be
>a Revolutionary, Saul said you
>must organize your damn self
>before organize other people.

That still doesnt negate Amiri's point of orginizing with other people. People make the difference, not individuals. There are a whole lotta tiiii(r)ed individuals around this land, but with out an orginization and people (not a bunch of individuals) behind this organization, NOTHING WILL HAPPEN. I agree also with Saul that you have to find any and everything you do within youself, but he cannot and did not negate Amiri's point. At this point in time where people are scared of orginizing and making a change, Saul's method works quite well, because as an individual, he spreads the light of consciousness through to other individuals and that light grows into a mighty flame internalized within a whole generation. When the time comes (whenever that may be, I personally wish it was now or sooner) then comes the true revolutionary tatics.

>He
>then explained how we find
>a common humanity beyond race,
>gender, sexuality ect., he said
>that is our movement not
>a primarily black struggle but
>a more human struggle.

We most definately are HUMAN first, but in the words or a wise (Wo)Man?? "Noone is free when others are opressed" As long as blacks (and others) world wide are opressed, no one on this earth is truly free.

> He
>then criticized the 60-70's movement
>for being positive but very
>Homophobic and Sexist and centered
>upon the Black Man.

YESS YESS YESS. It had its faults in hindsight, but look at what there were given. There were initially in a very mysoginistic society that had demeaned, demoralized, and de humanized the black man in any and every way possible. There were man that Raping and pillaging the wives or black men, who publically whipped, beat, spat on and lynched 'em. THEY WERE NOT HUMAN. If you ever get the chance get a hold of "We wear the mask" by Paul Lawrence Dunbar. It very well details a lot of the internalized feelings of black men at the time. The point in all this was that in a partiarchial society, the black man historically had been shitted on like an outhouse. This internalized repression is passed down through generations and manifested itself in the outward rage these very same black men exhibited to a point where it became excessive and of detriment to the struggle overall. Its still a problem today and will continue to be because black men are forced to overly exerty their masculinity in daily life. THis is why the issue of homosexuality is so taboo and why many of those who are homosexual choose to express their sexuality in an overly dramatically fashion (the classic "ghetto fag"). Reflection on past instances and during the present to make sure that what you're doing is right is very much necessary, because if WE dont know the past we're doomed to repeat it.


>He
>then talked about a workshop
>he had with Amiri who
>called a woman lost feeling
>like she had to deal
>with ther gender and sexuality
>as lesbian before she deals
>with her race. Amiri said,
>"in their eyes you'll always
>be black first." Saul said
>'"no Amiri you're lost as
>long you're concered with what
>you are in their eyes!"

I agree, but it is this sociological "looking glass self" that creates the duality that Palo frero (in pedogogy of the opressed) and DuBois speak of. They know not only themselves, now they percieve themselves, but also try to internalize the way that others percieve them. And in this country that means a lot of your black. True consciousness transcends the lookingglass self, but its only human to fall victim to it. (point goes to Williams)

>
>At this point an elder woman
>in the crowd jumped up
>and said your disrespeeting an
>elder and began a 10
>minute tirade on Saul that
>ended in the woman being
>removed from the auditorium, She
>called him disrespectful, demanded he
>contribute whatver he got paid
>to speak that night to
>the reparations movement. Saul handled
>it mad well, he was
>caught mad off guard, the
>crowd was stunned. Anyway i
>was talking to an elder
>who there wit' me afterwards
>and he felt he dead
>wrong for doing that, he
>said "The Elders can't antagonize
>the youth!"
>

This bitch is crazy...

>I say all of that to
>raise several questions...
>1)Are Black artists obligated to a
>Black movement or a Human
>movement?
Pure art is purposeless, but I have more respect for art that speaks of, or reflects human reality and offers insight (makes me think). I'm not one to restrict the decisions of others, but I do think that all people should feel an obligation to something larger than themselves. "If someone hasn't found something to die for, they aren't fit to live"

>2)Should the Elders step out of
>leadership positions they've been holding
>since the 60-70's and let
>younger blood with new ideas
>take riegns.
I think that elders need to GET THA FUCK OFF THEIR ASSES, STOP HAVING AWARDS CEREMONIES, BANQUETS, LUNCHEONS, DINNERS, ALL DAT SHYT and talk to the youth. These coming generations mine included are LOST y'all. We need guidance. We need elders to school us so that we don't make a lot of stupid mistakes and don't waste time. Elders are the most important asset of any society, so lets utilize 'em, it takes an effort on both sides. I'm willing, but I wish that all this award bullshit should cease for a while until something really gets done, something really gets changed, and people really merit them. (this is a very general and sweeping statement, I know.)

>3)Was Saul wrong?(Based on the limited
>info i gave you)
In what case, I think that at this point in time, saul is on the right track, his position shouldnt be an end though, but a means to an end similar to Amiri.

>4)Is it wrong to point out
>the mistakes of the elders?
HELL NO, no one is above criticism. No one. And at the juncture where they no longer welcome criticism, they should seriously reflect on why they are doign what they do.
>
>5)How can Hip-Hop generation continue to
>make progressive change?

Do like Saul and a lot of other progressive hip hoppers and keep spreading the light. Cause we all need it... Then in the words of Drag-On, we can "flame on" if ya know what i mean.

hotep, love and life
~~~~~~~~
AIM: Mello01
Homepage: http://members.blackplanet.com/2bYGB/
E-mail: melvin@poetic.com

********
If knowledge was your wealth, then it would be well-earned. -Silly E. Badu

Gary, Indiana, the city of the new century. -Mello

Did you hear about the rose that grew from the concrete? -Pac

Give a dayum if any fam recall my legacy, I'm tryna live life in tha sight of God's memory... -Mos Def

Its time to get some Ghetto Heaven
-Rasheed & D'

The people, united, will never be defeated. - Talib

  

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Ailyha
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826 posts
Tue Jan-23-01 01:42 PM

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10. "RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

First I would like to say, that Saul was out of line b/c it almost seems like he really did disrespect Amiri. That's like telling a mother how to raise a child and you never had one. Amiri and some other folks who were active in the Civil Rights Movement and the Black Arts Movement have been there and burned the t-shirt. Those people have experienced things that we can't even fathom. Racism and discrimination are still here but it's on another level that was present in the 60s and 70s and I think we should value the information they pass down on us. It's cute and all to think we should deal on human issues but we got to deal with the real, which is color is the first thing anybody sees and there is a social stigma on their that is never going to go away b/c around every corner there is history. History cannot be destroyed if it's in our hearts, souls, books, in our society, on our tv.
>
>I say all of that to
>raise several questions...
>1)Are Black artists obligated to a
>Black movement or a Human
>movement?
There is no obligation, it is a reality. We are living it and experiencing on a daily basis in big doses.

>2)Should the Elders step out of
>leadership positions they've been holding
>since the 60-70's and let
>younger blood with new ideas
>take riegns.

Leadership only goes out with death. The young blood should listen and take notes like its a course that is required for graduation.

>3)Was Saul wrong?(Based on the limited
>info i gave you)
Yeah, he was...I explained that above. It's almost like a young child going into adulthood who's "smelling himself"...that's a down south term. email me if you want to know what it mean.

>4)Is it wrong to point out
>the mistakes of the elders?
Did they make any mistakes b/c we are here and living it because of them. Regardless if there were mistakes made, we should reflect on the positive that was done and look for the deeper meaning at what their trying to say.

>
>5)How can Hip-Hop generation continue to
>make progressive change?
We have to understand who we are and where we come from. Respect our elders b/c there's a lesson in everything.
Educate, elevate, and reciprocate!!!!

Peace
A


Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous. - quote from Good Hair by Benilde Little

"Everybody's got issues, every-stinkin'-body"

WHen you look in my eyes, what do you see?

You like it, I love it... my advice to anyone who asks me for it and not willing to make that change.

2001, i'm really going to let my hair grow out...I guess i need something else to do with it.

During my year long plight of abstinence, my mind is clear and i'm horny as hell!

May 2001 Socialight Roadtrip to New York. We need OkayTourGuides! Email me!!

My Blog. Swing Phi Swing
http://swingbigphi.blogspot.com

My Mommy Blog. The Bourgie Baby
http://bourgiebaby.blogspot.com

"I bitch! Yooouuu Mooooaaaan....So I try another tactic..." --Jill Scott

  

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MellofromGI
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629 posts
Tue Jan-23-01 02:33 PM

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12. "Ye,Yea"
In response to Reply # 10


          

>First I would like to say,
>that Saul was out of
>line b/c it almost seems
>like he really did disrespect
>Amiri. That's like telling
>a mother how to raise
>a child and you never
>had one. Amiri and
>some other folks who were
>active in the Civil Rights
>Movement and the Black Arts
>Movement have been there and
>burned the t-shirt. Those
>people have experienced things that
>we can't even fathom.
>Racism and discrimination are still
>here but it's on another
>level that was present in
>the 60s and 70s and
>I think we should value
>the information they pass down
>on us. It's cute
>and all to think we
>should deal on human issues
>but we got to deal
>with the real, which is
>color is the first thing
>anybody sees and there is
>a social stigma on their
>that is never going to
>go away b/c around every
>corner there is history.
>History cannot be destroyed if
>it's in our hearts, souls,
>books, in our society, on
>our tv.

I totally agree, but dont you think that saul's criticism is merited in the least bit. I dont know if there were both in an open fourm. I assume not, so it was wrong for the brotha to out right slam amiri without amiri out there to defend his position, but still. I dont know how it was but maybe it was offensive... that one lady did leave in a fit. Us youngstars MOS DEFINATELY DO need guidance, but that guidance not only involves absorbtion, but dialogue.
Hotep

~~~~~~~~
AIM: Mello01
Homepage: http://members.blackplanet.com/2bYGB/
E-mail: melvin@poetic.com

********
If knowledge was your wealth, then it would be well-earned. -Silly E. Badu

Gary, Indiana, the city of the new century. -Mello

Did you hear about the rose that grew from the concrete? -Pac

Give a dayum if any fam recall my legacy, I'm tryna live life in tha sight of God's memory... -Mos Def

Its time to get some Ghetto Heaven
-Rasheed & D'

The people, united, will never be defeated. - Talib

  

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Ailyha
Charter member
826 posts
Thu Jan-25-01 03:20 PM

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28. "RE: Ye,Yea"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

Point taken and well said. We do need that dialogue but i think there is a way of going about that, not with outright disrespect, in my opinon.

peace
A

Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous. - quote from Good Hair by Benilde Little

"Everybody's got issues, every-stinkin'-body"

WHen you look in my eyes, what do you see?

You like it, I love it... my advice to anyone who asks me for it and not willing to make that change.

2001, i'm really going to let my hair grow out...I guess i need something else to do with it.

During my year long plight of abstinence, my mind is clear and i'm horny as hell!

May 2001 Socialight Roadtrip to New York. We need OkayTourGuides! Email me!!

My Blog. Swing Phi Swing
http://swingbigphi.blogspot.com

My Mommy Blog. The Bourgie Baby
http://bourgiebaby.blogspot.com

"I bitch! Yooouuu Mooooaaaan....So I try another tactic..." --Jill Scott

  

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mulattomoon

Tue Jan-23-01 02:16 PM

  
11. "RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution"
In response to Reply # 0


          

ive been strugglin w/ that topic for awhile-'"no Amiri you're lost as long you're concered with what you are in their eyes!"~ Saul Williams. i always believed in that quote, cuz thats what my mother always told me- then i came to the realization that i live in a world full of other people and other opinions n its closeminded n limits my knowledge to just go about things w/ the feeling that all i am is who i see n who i think i am.what i am in their eyes is just as important as what am i am in my own. i say this because when u look at life its in this whole big universe, this whole big earth, n all these people- ur just another person, just because u make urself who u are doesnt mean all you are is what u think u are. people have different opinions and all opinions are right in someones eyes- whos eyes are alone? no one exists in the world alone. now this is different than saying get wrapped up n freaked out n overconcerned about who u are to other people, it just means remeber that u r who u r to them- ur not who u think u are to everyone. at the same time remember who u are,who u think u are, cuz in that image is ur past where u came from, n u cant forget that~ all im sayin is remeber that u are someone else too, in someone elses eyes, as equally and as importantly b/c their opinion is a part of you- the part of you that they see- you can only see one side of yourself at a time. it would be selfish to think that just because you are you, that you is the only way you exist, and that that you is the only one that matters. its selfish because ur saying no one elses opinion is worth ur own, i guess, in a sense. i just think everyone should remeber that they exist differently to everyone, and each of those images of you, is you- to someone. also i think that we should respect our elders but i also beleive we should have the right to correct their mistakes- somebody has to, otherwise well never grow. i think hip hop artists have an obligation to speak up for the human race, as well as the black race. the thing w/ black people is, most of them dont care about where we came from or what out ancestors went through or the fact that were all brothers, and they dont care where we end up in the future- all they care about is bein real n to them that means bein hard n to a lot that means causin ruckus- thats demeaning n selfish n does nothing to help our black people. so i think the hip hop community needs to continue to address those issues, definately, but i think the words got to spread to all them mainstream rappers, cuz... i think that in addressing the human race we need to stress unity, brotherhood, and at the same time, the glory of diversity. those are just my human opinions anybody feel free to brush up on em

  

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Sierra

Tue Jan-23-01 02:37 PM

  
13. "RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution"
In response to Reply # 0


          

It almost seems redundant to answer this question, when it's been answered already with my same sentiments, but I got 2 cents, so I'm sharing it:

1) Black artists are NOT obligated to ANY movement, Black or otherwise, but considering they're already in the public eye, if they do promote a particular movement, they give that movement more credibility depending on their fan base. However, whatever movement they promote, they should definitely be serious about it and doing it for the right reasons, nahmean!

2) Elders should not step completely OUT of leadership positions, but they should possibly step to da side or step down, and remain as counselors or confidants based on their knowledge of the history of whatever causes the younger bloods are taking the reigns of. Similar to a mentoring process, so that all is not lost in the way of "FOUNDATION".

3) I don't feel Saul was wrong based on the info you provided.

4) Elders are human and they make mistakes just like anybody else. There's a time and a place to point out mistakes, to anyone, elder or young'un --- And if it's done tactfully and at the right time, I think it's always appropriate.

5) The Hip Hop generation must stay true to their hearts and not be led down the road of bling~bling, and everything that glitters. CHANGE COMES FROM WITHIN, so heads need to surround themselves with positive people who are willing to take action in whatever small ways they can to make a difference.












"I'm so hardcore niggaz take me for granite". - Spontaneous


"if underground means not being exposed, better go on and get your naked ass some clothes" - Dela Soul

  

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Wendell
Charter member
8207 posts
Tue Jan-23-01 03:20 PM

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14. "RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution"
In response to Reply # 0


          

First of all, revisionist historians rarely offer tangible solutions to the problems of yesteryear. They can't transfer their experiences to the past because they weren't there and those experiences didn't exist. The best we (the next generation) can do is hope that our forefathers did the best they could with what they had. Of course we could rip to shreads what was done in the past, but that's not constructive and it is disrespectful.

I believe the elder you spoke with meant that by antagonizing the youth, we will instinctively stop listening, therefor NOT learning the lessons of the past.

As for your questions, the only one I can remember is "should the elders step aside?" I say yes, but only if there is someone who is more (or equally) qualified to take over.

Peace

Wendell

Peace

Wendell

  

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illosopher
Charter member
596 posts
Tue Jan-23-01 04:12 PM

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16. "At the end of the day..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

What is the difference between oppresed Hawaiians, Palestinians, South Africans, Sudanese, African-Americans...

None... We could debate and talk about 4oo years here and there but it won't change things, It won't change the fact shit is fucked. We've been looking at stuff the same way for 50+ years and our situation worsens...

Our problems deal with broken Human spirits, this a human phenomenon not a racial one, why deal in their world at all. I dont' recognize any of Babylon's constructs.

As far as all you cats who romanticize the struggle, if the 60-70's were ALL THAT why are we worse off now, cuz half them niggas were full of shit! Ego-maniac, sexists assholes, who were more worried about being a revoluationary then being revolutionary. you can blame the FBI and cointelpro and all that stuff and yes they did play a part in the shit but many of those cats were off point. For all that were are the schools were are the businesses and shit, where are the institutions. If you say we don't have shit cuz the Powers that be destroyed the movement then you say that we lost the war. If we lost the war then we need a new appoach and new Generals why fight a war with generals who already lost a war miserably....



  

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k_orr
Charter member
80197 posts
Wed Jan-24-01 04:48 AM

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19. "so 35 yrs of opportunity"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

are supposed to erase 400 years of oppression?

I don't knock our elders. Without them, there would not be such a large black middle class today. It's not like the percentages have remained stagnant since 1965. Quite the opposite. More folks from the lower class have been able to move up, get educations, build homes, and create more opportunity for themselves.

That being said, we need to focus our attention and the 33% of us who are not considered middle/upper class. We need to rebuild our institutions, banks, businesses, places of worship et cetera.

And as for your first point,

2 + 2 is not the same as x^2 + 5x + 6. So even though you might find problems all over the globe, oppression if you will, not all of them are the same.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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illosopher
Charter member
596 posts
Wed Jan-24-01 06:38 AM

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21. "RE: so 35 yrs of opportunity"
In response to Reply # 19


          

of course it doesn't. I'm saying the same you are. We need to build a community unfrastructure.

  

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MellofromGI
Charter member
629 posts
Wed Jan-24-01 07:35 AM

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24. "..."
In response to Reply # 21


          

>of course it doesn't. I'm saying
>the same you are. We
>need to build a community
>unfrastructure.

WE ALL KNOW THIS... All I need to know is when. Communities are essential, families are essential. But how do you get the point through to people, when reality forces them to act otherwise? How do you get folk to stop delapidating communities with drugs and shyt when the reality is baby gotta eat. I get more and more fed up everyday and I aint even been here (earth) that long. I wanna do this, but I don't know how, I don't know who, and I don't know when... nobody can spell it out, but how does a collective come forth to make a change. Does it come from individuals working from their corners first or a large orginization with insitiutions set up to continue the struggle for future generations? Fuck the fame, fuck the noteriety, this is reality and I'm just fed tha fuk up. R y'all bout it or what?
~~~~~~~~
AIM: Mello01
Homepage: http://members.blackplanet.com/2bYGB/
E-mail: melvin@poetic.com

********
If knowledge was your wealth, then it would be well-earned. -Silly E. Badu

Gary, Indiana, the city of the new century. -Mello

Did you hear about the rose that grew from the concrete? -Pac

Give a dayum if any fam recall my legacy, I'm tryna live life in tha sight of God's memory... -Mos Def

Its time to get some Ghetto Heaven
-Rasheed & D'

The people, united, will never be defeated. - Talib

  

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MellofromGI
Charter member
629 posts
Sun Jan-28-01 09:08 AM

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35. "RE: ..."
In response to Reply # 24


          

R y'all bout it
>or what?

I guess not...

~~~~~~~~
AIM: Mello01
Homepage: http://members.blackplanet.com/2bYGB/
E-mail: melvin@poetic.com

********
If knowledge was your wealth, then it would be well-earned. -Silly E. Badu

Gary, Indiana, the city of the new century. -Mello

Did you hear about the rose that grew from the concrete? -Pac

Give a dayum if any fam recall my legacy, I'm tryna live life in tha sight of God's memory... -Mos Def

Its time to get some Ghetto Heaven
-Rasheed & D'

The people, united, will never be defeated. - Talib

  

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spirit
Charter member
21338 posts
Thu Jan-25-01 11:31 PM

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30. "the situation worsens?"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

>None... We could debate and talk
>about 4oo years here and
>there but it won't change
>things, It won't change the
>fact shit is fucked. We've
>been looking at stuff the
>same way for 50+ years
>and our situation worsens...

If you honestly think black people are in a worse position in 2001 than 1951, I question your understanding of history and your understanding of what the word "worse" means. In most measurable aspects (life expectancy, family income, employment, civil rights enforcement, etc), black life is better now than in 1951.

>Our problems deal with broken Human
>spirits, this a human phenomenon
>not a racial one, why
>deal in their world at
>all.

how can there be a "their" if you do not recognize racial difference? who would "they" be absent racial categorization?

> I dont' recognize any
>of Babylon's constructs.
>As far as all you cats
>who romanticize the struggle, if
>the 60-70's were ALL THAT
>why are we worse off
>now

how do you define "worst off"?

, cuz half them niggas
>were full of shit! Ego-maniac,
>sexists assholes, who were more
>worried about being a revoluationary
>then being revolutionary. you can
>blame the FBI and cointelpro
>and all that stuff and
>yes they did play a
>part in the shit but
>many of those cats were
>off point.

where are the contemporary leaders that rival them in effectiveness? who is "on point"?

Thoughtfully yours,

Spirit

http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/general1/9519.html#1 - funny shit....I like this guy...

http://mp3.washingtonpost.com/bands/in_shallah.shtml
Check out my hip-hop brethren In Shallah
(Arabic for "God's will"); b-boy
conscious soul music for the world to
uprock to...

Imagine if Aceyalone was the
frontman for The Doors and you have
Miscellaneous Flux. Their four song
debut EP is on sale now. Want to hear an
MP3 to taste a sample? E-mail
alanpage@starpower.net

(I said Ghostface before, but I think
Aceyalone is a better comparison...maybe
the delivery of Ghost and the lyrics of
Acey...ah, hell, just listen)

"the world may seem to cause you pain.
and yet the world, as causeless, has no
power to cause. as an effect, it cannot
make effects. as an illusion, it is what
you wish" denis johnson, "already dead"




Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

  

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dysfunctmonk

Tue Jan-23-01 11:35 PM

  
17. "RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution"
In response to Reply # 0


          

1)Are Black artists obligated to a Black movement or a Human movement?

We as people have a social responsability. This social responsability extends into whatever activity we do whether it be farming, teaching, art, etc. It is European culture which has promoted this individualistic idea in life where your only concern is self. This is not natural to us as Afrikan people because we always saw ourselves as one with our environment and with those around us, and so we always have had a sense of community. So we should feel obligated to the movement to take down the imperialistic western culture and free our people.


2)Should the Elders step out of leadership positions they've been holding since the 60-70's and let younger blood with new ideas take riegns.

It is a part of the cycle of things for the old to fade out and the new to rise to the occasion. We cannot expect the whole war to be fought and won in our lifetime, and so we fight to get a little closer to freedom so that the next generation can take it from where we left off.


3)Was Saul wrong?(Based on the limited info i gave you)

In stating his point, no, but I don't really know if he said it in a disrespectful way.


4)Is it wrong to point out the mistakes of the elders?

No. Only by recognizing the mistakes of our elders and correcting them can we avoid making them all over again. That's just called growth. We learn just as much from our elders' mistakes as we do from their correct actions (if not more).


5)How can Hip-Hop generation continue to make progressive change?

To continue to learn from our elders experiences as well as from our own. It is only with this learning and by acting on what we have learned that we can successfully free ourselves from oppression.




"If our education is not about gaining real power, we are being miseducated and misled and we will die 'educated' and misled."
-Amos Wilson, The Falsification of Afrikan Consciousness

  

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J_Hayes

Wed Jan-24-01 07:15 AM

  
23. "Reparations?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I find it strange that he wanted Saul 2 give his money 2 the reparations movement. Saul is getting paid. Ain't that the point? Ofcourse we all know it goes deeper than that but should people of color, getting paid give there money so people of color can get paid. The situation is kind of a knot.
Repartations I think people will ultimatly see will b more about society and less about cash.

  

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Zesi
Charter member
24062 posts
Wed Jan-24-01 07:42 AM

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25. "RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>I say all of that to
>raise several questions...
>1)Are Black artists obligated to a
>Black movement or a Human
>movement?

Should they choose? People involved in black movements have always been involved in other ones, too...Frederick Douglass championed women's rights, Huey Newton allied himself with many groups, Martin Luther King was organizing a Poor People's movement...there are black women who support the feminist movement and movements for civil rights..

>2)Should the Elders step out of
>leadership positions they've been holding
>since the 60-70's and let
>younger blood with new ideas
>take riegns.

I don't see anyone all excited about taking their place. Leadership is less deciding to be a leader than the people deciding that you are a leader.

>3)Was Saul wrong?(Based on the limited
>info i gave you)

In some ways, yes, in some, no. "Tell the truth but tell it slant"...you tell people what you think in a way that will not hurt them so they will be more likely to be receptive. Williams' point raises up questions: How much responsibility do we have to ourselves, and how much to others?

>4)Is it wrong to point out
>the mistakes of the elders?

Depends on how you do it. It's not constructive to do it negatively.

>5)How can Hip-Hop generation continue to
>make progressive change?

Stop bickering over the small stuff, and work on our common struggles. The small things will destroy a movement.

Yabbadabbadoozilla! (c) Bootzilla
http://www.funkknots.com
http://www.boondocks.net
http://www.cartoonista.com
http://www.pocho.com

"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_


  

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are
Charter member
44 posts
Thu Jan-25-01 09:14 AM

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26. "RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution"
In response to Reply # 25


          

i was also in attendance at the saul williams event and i just had a few thoughts to share.
first, i don't think it was saul's intention to disrespect amiri baraka or anyone involved with the civil rights or black arts movements. he was indeed critical of mr. baraka's statement that you should be concerned with how other people view you, as well as the male-centered perspective that was behind much of the direction and organization of the movements. but being critical is significantly different from being disrespectful.
saul did not say, "those cats in the 60's didn't know what they were talkin about cuz they were sexist, therefor, we should disregard what they did and tried to do." he didn't even allude to such a conlusion. saul points out the mistakes of the elders not to disrespect them, but to show us so that we might not repeat them. it seems to me that at the heart of saul's position was the idea that we can't simply take a movement from back then and make it work for us in the here and now. some of the underlying ideas and understood concerns that helped to organize and structure the movement then are more problematic in today's society. for example, women's secondary organizational roles and underappreciated efforts are less likely to be tolerated to the same extent that they were tolerated then.
it's a different time and place. how can we take movements that were born of their specific time and place and just transplant them to today and expect them to succeed? you can't do it. but this doesn't mean that we ignore what happened before us. we take what happened before us and let it inform our actions for today and tomorrow, while taking a critical eye to it so that we may not repeat the same mistakes. and this is done with all due respect.

everyday begins a revolution.

  

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illosopher
Charter member
596 posts
Thu Jan-25-01 09:19 AM

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27. "I agree"
In response to Reply # 26


          

I hope i repped what happened that night, cuz i thought sis was out of line. I think a lot of peeps romanticize the past for revisonist purposes, it makes you no different than the heads you claim are oppressing you. I think we do need new fresh ideas to this struggle for equality of all people. Do you go to Pitt?

  

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are
Charter member
44 posts
Fri Jan-26-01 04:20 AM

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31. "RE: I agree"
In response to Reply # 27


          

i agree that sis was out of line. she came in crazy late, heard about 3 minutes of what saul had to say, and then proceeded to try to rip on him. and then she wouldn't even give him a chance to address what she was saying or have any kind of dialogue with him. she just talked over him and walked out. i understand she has her own view of what he was saying, but then she should have been eager to talk with him instead of just walking out. disappointing.

but anyway, i wasa pitt student but not anymore...i came here for grad school and i'm done with that

  

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spirit
Charter member
21338 posts
Thu Jan-25-01 11:24 PM

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29. "RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

what I don't hear from Saul, based on what you've presented, is a solution for the problems we currently face. for example, take the issue of the disproportionately low number of minority owners of broadcast properties, as a random example. how does saul's "we're all human" philosophy deal with that?

and Saul's statement about organizing yourself first before organizing others doesn't really fit the pattern of the history of any political organization...I mean, does he think that Thomas Jefferson went through some soul-searching to be sure he was a perfect person before him and the boys started arguing on how the Constitution should be written? Eh, there are no perfect people. If you wait for people to attempt to fix all their flaws before they organize, there would never be any organizations. In that respect, I think Saul is dead wrong.

Thoughtfully yours,

Spirit

http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/general1/9519.html#1 - funny shit....I like this guy...

http://mp3.washingtonpost.com/bands/in_shallah.shtml
Check out my hip-hop brethren In Shallah
(Arabic for "God's will"); b-boy
conscious soul music for the world to
uprock to...

Imagine if Aceyalone was the
frontman for The Doors and you have
Miscellaneous Flux. Their four song
debut EP is on sale now. Want to hear an
MP3 to taste a sample? E-mail
alanpage@starpower.net

(I said Ghostface before, but I think
Aceyalone is a better comparison...maybe
the delivery of Ghost and the lyrics of
Acey...ah, hell, just listen)

"the world may seem to cause you pain.
and yet the world, as causeless, has no
power to cause. as an effect, it cannot
make effects. as an illusion, it is what
you wish" denis johnson, "already dead"




Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

  

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are
Charter member
44 posts
Fri Jan-26-01 06:44 AM

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32. "RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution"
In response to Reply # 29


          

spirit,
for the sake of not coming off like i'm trying to tell everybody what's going on in saul's head, i'm going to address the issues that you raise but try to keep saul's name out of it. the issues that you raise stand on their own regardless of whether saul williams brought em up or not.
first, your idea of there being a solution for the problems in our present time. doesn't it kind of depend on how you expect the problem is going to be solved. what i mean is that different people have different ideas as to how problems can be solved and exactly what that solution entails. for example, solving the problem that you presented of the low number of minority owned broadcast properties could be "solved" in a few different ways: a)all the white owners of the broadcast properties could be killed, thus making the previously low proportion of minority owned broadcast properties into the only remaining broadcast property owners; b)all the white owned broadcst props could be boycotted, resulting in some of them shutting down, thus increasing the previously low proportion of minority owned brdcst props; c)all references and acknowledgement of distinct black and white races could cease to exist, which would mean the end to the idea of racial minorities, thus erasing the problem of who owns a greater proportion of brdcst props. and there's more stuff that i could make up. but my point is that presenting a solution to a problem often just addresses the outcome rather than engaging the inner workings of the problem. in the brdcst props example any increase in the number of minority owned properties could be seen by some as having solved the problem. yet the vast majority of solutions would not even attempt to address the society and conditions that produce the disproportion in the first place.
but at the same time i don't think that such solutions are altogether useless because they at least address some aspect of the problem.
i think the "we're all human" philosophy is meant to challenge the thinking that forces us to rigorously define oursleves along lines of black and white, as well as challenge those solutions which also fall along those lines. i don't think that it means to ignore the existing problems at all, or to preach that since we're all human we should just be happy and get along right now regardless of how things are. and there's also the question of whether "we're all human" means that we would no longer assume the existence of race. this would be very difficult. there's been alot invested in creating blackness and whiteness from jump.
but at the same time i think that as a result of having so much put into it, the idea of race is pretty absurd. you can't really clearly define, yet there are so many things that rest upon it.
i mean, yeah when you look around you you see people of various shades and think that such and such looks white and such and such looks black and understand them to be of that race. but we all know black folks who look white and there has got to be a lot of white folks in this country who have some kind of black ancestry in em and don't even know it. so who's who?
i'm just rambling now...i don't know if i even addressed your questions directly. hope i didn't stray too far.
looking forward to a response.



  

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illosopher
Charter member
596 posts
Sat Jan-27-01 01:15 AM

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33. "Couldn't have said it as good..."
In response to Reply # 32


          

true!

  

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illosopher
Charter member
596 posts
Sat Jan-27-01 01:20 AM

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34. "I gots to holler at you in the 'Burgh sometime..."
In response to Reply # 32


          

email me @ illosopher@hotmail.com

  

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Amaryllis

Sun Jan-28-01 03:34 PM

  
36. "RE: Elders, Youth, Saul Williams and Black Revolution"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I don't think Saul was wrong because what he stated was his opinion and opinions are not facts which means there is no wrong or right. However I do think that there is a time a place for everything but then again someone will always be offended. I agree with Saul as far as defining yourself for yourself but someone here brings up a good point when they stated that how you see yourself is not basically how everybody else sees you. And to me... if alot of people think the samething about you there must be some validity in it. So self evaluation is necessary when things like that come up. It is true that you must first start with self.

At the same time tho'disagree with the part suggesting that we should see our situation as a human situation. Granted it is but you can't just skip from self straigt to human race. If you start with self you got to make the next step immediate and extended family, then move on to immediate community, race/culture needs to be intertwined into all of those issues and once fools can unite within thier own race/culture, then we can move on to the entire human race. We got to take alot of small steps to slowly have the appearance of one big step.

We can't downplay what our ancestors have done for us be it progress or not...all we can do is learn from it...they did what they knew how to do.

And I'll say somethingelse if any change is going to be successful it has to be quiet fools can't go around telling and emailing and paging and phoning to everybody what they gone do cause then other people know what to do to stop it.

And one other thing no one is above correction if you wrong you should be corrected.

  

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rgv
Charter member
4556 posts
Sun Jan-28-01 04:18 PM

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37. "answering the questions~"
In response to Reply # 0


          


>1)Are Black artists obligated to a
>Black movement or a Human
>movement?

blks are HUMANS, so in essence, arent we obligated to both?

>2)Should the Elders step out of
>leadership positions they've been holding
>since the 60-70's and let
>younger blood with new ideas
>take riegns.

which elders are u speaking of??? the matri and patriarchs of the communities, that wld spank ur ass for ur mother, or are u speakin of the al sharptons and jesse jacksons, and amiri barakas?

>3)Was Saul wrong?(Based on the limited
>info i gave you)

no, he cant be wrong, for stating what it is he feels.

>4)Is it wrong to point out
>the mistakes of the elders?

elders are human, and if they think they are above human fault, then they REALLY need to be talked to, as long as it is respectful, that important, perhaps the womyn saw saul as disrespectful to her~
>
>5)How can Hip-Hop generation continue to
>make progressive change?

study, learn, vote, year, aspire~~


Poems are bullshit unless they are
teeth or trees or lemons piled
on a step. Or black ladies dying
of men leaving nickel hearts
beating them down. Fuck poems
and they are useful, wd they shoot
come at you, love what you are,
breathe like wrestlers, or shudder
strangely after pissing. We want live
words of the hip world live flesh &
coursing blood. Hearts Brains
Souls splintering fire. We want poems
like fists beating niggers out of Jocks
or dagger poems in the slimy bellies
of the owner-jews. Black poems to
smear on girdlemamma mulatto bitches
whose brains are red jelly stuck
between 'lizabeth taylor's toes. Stinking
Whores! We want "poems that kill."
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
with tongues pulled out and sent to Ireland.

~Imamu Amiri Baraka~ excerpt frum "Black Art"

RudeGirl/Virgo.

i just want chu to know
how i feel
how i feel

  

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