I know this might get ugly, but I have to ask it. What do the so-called "white" people have to gain by giving up their self-imposed "racially" superior status? Conversely, how does racism negatively affect "whites"?

PS...so I don't get asked about the why certain words are in quotes: I don't believe in races or in "white" people. I'm just using the scientifically inaccurate, but accepted colloquial example to get this discussion going. Peace.

Thanks for reading. I love you.

"What are you but my reflection, who am I to judge or strike you down?" - MJK

In Rotation:
Organized Konfusion - OK
Fiona Apple - When The Pawn
Jimmy Smith - Root Down
OutKast - Stankonia
Tool - Salival
Slum Village - Fantastic Vol II

don't be fkn evil.

the real question is actually, how on earth could they give it up???

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

V I V R A N C E
TinkyWinky - marley marl
Vivrant - Pete Rock
bfnh - Premier
guinness - Jay Dee
Mosaic - Hi Tek
Illwill - Hank Shocklee
SqueegieXM - Prince Paul
Kay Dee - Buckwild
Raina - Jazzy Joyce
phil - The Rza
nickelz45 - Diamond D
Donwill - Automator
honorable mention:
fire - fire

"Where the F*CK is my purse icon??????"

:::::::::::::
"And I know what the fuck an option quarterback is. He's the black QB under six feet that ends up being converted to wide receiver once he's selected on day two of the NFL draft because he can't hit the ocean from the edge of a boat."

--

game over

Your comment brings something else to mind though......if they can't give it up, then what is the point in us complaining about/or working against it all?

Thanks for reading. I love you.

"What are you but my reflection, who am I to judge or strike you down?" - MJK

In Rotation:
Organized Konfusion - OK
Fiona Apple - When The Pawn
Jimmy Smith - Root Down
OutKast - Stankonia
Tool - Salival
Slum Village - Fantastic Vol II

don't be fkn evil.

the subject line got cut short....:
They attained it....so they should be able to relinquish it.....theoretically

don't be fkn evil.

its just a matter of educating oneself or even so simple as changing one's mind

do you think that people have really given up "Negro" consciousness (black & white people)?

love and respect,
El Rey

NOW GO CHECK OUT MY GROUP'S WEB SITE!: http://www.wemba-music.org (we're only getting started)

http://www.mumia2000.org
http://www.mumia.org

"yo he preferido hablar de cosas imposibles ... porque de lo posible, se sabe demasiado" -- Silvio Rodriguez

"I certainly dont live here to be "given" liberty- I live here to continue the struggle that insists that i am already free" -- KoalaLove

http://www.blackgrrrlrevolution.org
cuz yer either down with the revolution or not ...

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
who are you









really

by negro consciousness

me personally- im conscious of the fact that the term negro describes a category of physical characteristics and data pertinent to geographic origin not to be confused with the way it is used in this society where it supposedly describes a culture or lifestyle.

...should Black people release their ignorance and dependence of white people so that we don't have to be in position to ask for them to give up their racial advantage? As detrimental as it was to us, the white people responsible for oppressing the majority of the world (not all white people, because their ignorance or naivete makes most of them vicitms as well) did what they had to do to reaffirm themselves in the world, whether it was enslaving people or colonizing their land, or nowadays pulling brothers over just for breathing. Now it's up to us to do what we have to do in order to affirm our place in this world. It doesn't have to be tactics that are oppressive towards others, but it all starts be identifying who we are and what we want to call ourselves. One y'all!

ma
meudontno@hotmail.com

"Just because we're well-spoken and intelligent doesn't mean we're not human."
--?uestlove, justifying why the Roots have a stripper pole in their studio

...but then again, I barely graduated
highschool

What do the so-called
>"white" people have to gain
>by giving up their self-imposed
>"racially" superior status?

Nothing to gain , everything to lose.

Conversely, how
>does racism negatively affect "whites"?

Does racism affect "whites" ?

Shit happens

Just as White people Stereotype that all black people gang bang and are on welfare, I think that black people think all white people are all out to oppress them. While I know that there are white people who want to do just that (as I am sure there are black people who gang bang and are on welfare) many of us are shocked and want to help dissolve the lines between races.
Schmitty

the existence of white privilege has nothing to do with "stereotyping" whites. the fact of the matter is that my oppression exists because of their privilege. period. dot. once we finally understand that, maybe we could get to changing some things.

rhonda

and another thing...your analogy doesn't work. when blacks assume that whites are out to oppress them, that doesn't empower us or help our status in any way, shape, or form. we don't gain any political, economic, or social movement from that erroneous assumption. on the other hand, whites developing negative sterotypes of blacks (welfare, gang-bangers), that puts them a notch higher (if that's even possible). such stereotypes help affirm white supremacy. the effects are completely different, ans therefore, you can't really compare the two.

rhonda

I agree with you 100%.

Good thinking!

Peace,
Q

********************
Reasons why I love OkayPlayer (a work in progress):

1)Then she was like gurl he nutted all on my weave... (Sha on hoes)

2) Ay man yo' hair looks like taco meat!-One of my boys janking on this dried up head cat (Kemp)

3) i here shook like that dayum
i cant say shit im leave her alone (Sundasill on ???)

4)"oh boy vicky martin"
homosexual poster child for mexican border jumping (Sundasill on Ricky Martin)

5) Also don't list those three years as a crack whore under "entrepenurial experience". that should go in the "hobbies/interests" category. (Guinness on Resume don'ts)

6) to make it clear in a metaphor
European Westernization is equivalent to a tobbacco.
while
American Westernization is akin heroin.

both will do you in one alot faster than the other... (illosopher)

____________


"When the revolution comes, "faggots" won't be so funny." - The Last Poets

** Most people mis-read this line. I don't think he is being homophobic. I think he's making sure you folks know, within our communities, those of you who laugh at

Prejudice or racism becomes a problem when the individual or group that feels this way has the power to affect another indivudual or group's situation. In the case we speak of, "white" people, at this point, have the power to oppress the majority (because white people are really the "minorities"). This is why I have said and will say again that Afrikan people need to stop fighting for "rights" and fight for power. We must have the power to secure and protect our freedom, because as long as someone else holds the power to enforce our rights or not we are at their mercy.

UHURU

Uhuru means Freedom

"If our education is not about gaining real power, we are being miseducated and misled and we will die 'educated' and misled."
-Amos Wilson, The Falsification of Afrikan Consciousness

Its unfortunate that things work that way...that everyone is strapped into a zero-sum mentality.

"This is why I have said and will say again that Afrikan people need to stop fighting for "rights" and fight for power."

To what end?

you have some powerful posts n make amzing points in them all. i just have a genuine question im not being sarcastic or whatever. but what is stereotyping? i think, although im not sure, that is overrated in both ways- some people depend on it too much n some people dont take any responsibility. i was having this convo w/ my mom yesterday (shes white) n she said she thinks its a stereotype to say black people have more rhythm than white people- now... i mean im not gonna say no white people have rhythm, n all black people do, cuz thats certainly not true, but i think that belief has some truth in it. i think theres a basis for a lot of stereotypes, not that they are true for everyone believe that- no, all black people are not in gangs, no they do not all smoke weed, etc. but, whens the last time u caught a white boy in a gang? gangs are full of black people, n we have to take responsibility for the reasoning behind that stereotype. i do, however, think its wrong to say that ALL blacks are gangbangers or whatever, but i couldnt blame a sheltered person for being afraid of a black person when thats all they see on tv- n black people do have control over their own videos n lyrics- if they wanna keep that up be prepared for the consequences im just sayin i think certain stereotypes have a basis, not that they are true or that u should live by them, i personally find them very offensive as do you all im sure. but what im sayin is that i think theres a lot of things black people could clean up but instead it seems like theyre re-enforcing the stereotypes ( i mean i know white people aint doin nuthin to help, but there are certain black people that think they can conduct themselves in any manner they please, n then not get judged for it-im not sayin its right, but its human nature n u gotta expect n come to terms w/ it so u can change it) n then blamin it on white people - EVERYTHING IS NOT WHITE PEOPLES FAULT! im sure yall all know that, but damn it seems like a lot of people got no clue n they wanna play dumb like they aint doin nuthin wrong alright well im done, n please try ur best to understand what im sayin- i didnt mean to offend anyone unjustly ( n sorry for the slang), also im not perfect, nor am i a scholar therefore i do not claim to be flawlessly well informed on this subject, which is y im asking for your opinion. thnx, peace.

......uhhhhh, just what have you been prevented from doing or attaining, i ask. besides you are living a luxury compared to 300 years ago. it's also bullshit because now is the best time to be black. and it'll only get better. white people are only viewed as soulless, nasal, gawkey, surfer crackers. so dont start feeling special off on your troubles. we all got em and alot of them are all relative.

And I quote....
"The systematic advantages of being White are often referred to as White privilege. In a now well-known article, "White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack," Peggy McIntosh, a White feminist scholar, identified a long list of societal privileges that she received simply because she was White. She did not ask for them, and it is important to note that she hadn't always noticed that she was receiving them. They included major and minor advantages of course she enjoyed greater access to jobs and housing. But she also was able to shop in department stores without being followed by suspicious salespeople and could always find appropriate hair care products and makeup in any drugstore. She could send her child to school confident that the teacher would not discriminate against him on the basis of race. She could also be late for meetings, and talk with her mouth full, fairly confident that these behaviors would not be attributed to the favt that she was White. She could express an opinion in a meeting or in print and not have it labeled the "White" viewpoint. In other words, she was more often than not viewed as an individual, rather than as a member of a racial group.
This article rings true for most White readers, many of whom may have never considered the benefits of being White...
Another provocative question I'm often asked is "Are you saying all Whites are racist?" When asked this question...I am conscious that perhaps the question I am really being asked is, "Are you saying all Whites are bad people?" The answer to that question is of course not. However, all White people, intentionally or unintentionally, do benefit from racism. A more relevant question is what are White people as individuals doing to interrupt racism? For many White people, the image of a racist is a hood-wearing Klan member of a name-calling Archie Bunker figure. These images represent what might be called active racism, blatant, intentional acts of racial bigotry and discrimination. Passive racism is more subtle and can be seen in the collusion of laughing when a racist joke is told, of letting exculsionary hiring practices go unchallenged, of accepting as appropriate the omissions of people of color from the curriculum, and of avoiding difficult race-related issues. Because racism is so ingrained in the fabric of American institutions, it is easily self-perpetuating. All that is required to maintain business as usual...
...not all Whites are actively racist. Many are passively racist. Somte, though not enough, are actively antiracist. The relevant question is not whether all Whites are racist, but how we can move more White people from a positions of active or passive racism to one of active antiracism? The task of interrupting racism is obviously not the task of Whites alone. But the fact of White privilege means that Whites have greater access to the societal institutions in need of transformation. To whom much is given, much is required.
It is important to acknowledge that while all White benefit from racism, they do not all benefit equally. Other factors, such as socioeconomic status, gender, age, religious affiliation, sexual orientation, mental and physical ability, also play a role in our access to social influence and power."

---> taken from "Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria? And Other Conversations About Race" by Beverly Daniel Tatum, PH.D.


ATTENTION!!!If you have not read "THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF MALCOLM X," you MUST.

does racism negatively affect "whites"? What reason do they have to forgo their privileges?

Thanks for reading. I love you.

"What are you but my reflection, who am I to judge or strike you down?" - MJK

In Rotation:
Organized Konfusion - OK
Fiona Apple - When The Pawn
Jimmy Smith - Root Down
OutKast - Stankonia
Tool - Salival
Slum Village - Fantastic Vol II

don't be fkn evil.

Well, there are problems that arise from racism that do affect whites. I do think that some whites suffer from guilt, because of their privileges. The pain some may suffer when it comes to interracial marriages...hm. It's really easy to say that racism doesn't negatively affect whites, but I think it does, in SOME aspects (my examples are limited-I'm trying to think of why they'd want to let it go!--it's the right thing to do?? : )

"If white people have suffered less obviously from racism than black people, they have nevertheless suffered greatly; the cost has been greater perhaps than we can yet know. If the white man has inflicted the wound of racism upon black men, the cost has been that he would receive the mirror image of that wound into himself. As the master, or as a member of the dominant race, he has felt little compulsion to acknowledge it or speak of it; the more painful it has grown the more deeply he has hidden it within himself. But the wound is there, and it is a profound disorder, as great a damage in his mind as it is in his society."
--Wendell Berry "The Hidden Wound"

"The choice, as every choice, is yours: to fight for freedom or be fettered, to struggle for liberty or to be satisfied with slavery, to side with life or death. Spread the word of life far and wide. Talk to your friends, read, and open your eyes-even to doorways of perception you feared to look into yesterday. Hold your heart open to truth." -Mumia Abu-Jamal (inside cover of "Unbound Project: Volume 1")

ATTENTION!!!If you have not read "THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF MALCOLM X," you MUST.

How is my analogy an erroneous assumption, when all I hear on this whole board is "are white people bad for me" or "Do YOU pledge allegiance." The fact is you all feel that ALL white people are COMPLETE evil. We forced you to this HORRIBLE country, STOLE your culture, and continue to OPPRESS you. Every Black criminal was set up and all popular music was invented by black people. My ancestors came to the U.S. to escape the same thing you were facing here. I am insulted

>How is my analogy an erroneous
>assumption, when all I hear
>on this whole board is
>"are white people bad for
>me" or "Do YOU pledge
>allegiance." The fact is
>you all feel that ALL
>white people are COMPLETE evil.

no, I certainly do not feel that way. And exactly who is included in this "you all" category?

> We forced you to
>this HORRIBLE country, STOLE your
>culture, and continue to OPPRESS
>you.

I am Native American-my people were already here. Whites didn't steal my ancestor's culture, they forced Native Americans to "assimilate or die." Yes, oppression is still active widely across the US of A.

Every Black criminal
>was set up and all
>popular music was invented by
>black people.

Where are you going with this exactly???

My ancestors
>came to the U.S. to
>escape the same thing you
>were facing here. I
>am insulted

I am sorry. Don't be.

"The choice, as every choice, is yours: to fight for freedom or be fettered, to struggle for liberty or to be satisfied with slavery, to side with life or death. Spread the word of life far and wide. Talk to your friends, read, and open your eyes-even to doorways of perception you feared to look into yesterday. Hold your heart open to truth." -Mumia Abu-Jamal (inside cover of "Unbound Project: Volume 1")

ATTENTION!!!If you have not read "THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF MALCOLM X," you MUST.

I am sorry for any misunderstanding that may have taken place. My comments were not directed toward you in anyway. I enjoyed your post. I accidentally pressed the wrong reply button.

so they were directed towards me...that's great!

actually, I said that it was an erroneous assumption for blacks to think that all whites are "out to oppress" them. the fact is that your analogy does not work because the two "stereotypes" you're comparing are not parallel, they do not have the same effects on their target. First of all, you is "you all." i don't think all white folk are evil. my boyfriend's mother is white...i talk to white people everyday...i smile, converse, develop relationships. i think a lot of people on both sides of the debate get "white supremacy" and "white people" confused. "white supremacy" is evil. "white supremacy" is what continues to marginalize people of color.

even so, you have to come to terms with some truths. white people did bring us to this country and strip us of our history, our dignity, and our humanity (attempted to anyway). white people were the ones who told my grandfather that he would be hung if they caught him looking at a white woman one more than one occasion. white people spit in my father's face and called him a "nigger" because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. white people did do all of these things, and not as individual actions, as you would probably like to believe, but as the result of a culture of white supremacy that this country has been cultivating and validating ever since its birth...and these whites had to power to do what they did, not because of their individual merit or intelligence, but because of their collective identity as "white", their skin color and consciousness. i didn't invent that standard, i didn't invent the concept of "blackness," they did. so that they could tell the "property" from the real human beings. so that they could determine which women were rapable and which men were hangable.

as a result of this terrible history, you have a privilege, whether you like it or not. what are you? irish, italian...well lucky you, you became white a lot quicker than people of color ever could, the melting pot model worked for you. but you cannot deny, that despite your roots as an immigrant, if you were pulled over by the police that you would have less of a chance of being shot than a black. you cannot deny that if you were caught stealing, that you are more likely to get a lighter sentence than a black man accused of the same crime. you cannot deny these facts of YOUR privilege. yes, it belongs to you. it's something that i have had to come to terms with as well. i'm black and korean and i look filipina...i have had to come to terms that since i don't look "black," since i am a female, since i have the opportunity to go to a small, private, liberal arts college, that i have certain privilege too. you think you're the only one dealing with some shit?

every black criminal has not been "set up," but most have never had a fair trial because racism runs so deep. like i said, whites are more likely to get lighter sentences than blacks who commit the same damn crimes, how would you explain that discrepency? your ancestors came to the U.S. to escape oppression, so doesn't that point to your privilege, your haven is our jail. your refuge is our torture. there's something tragically poetic about that. tell me, where in the world can i go where blacks are not subjugate, marginalized, hated, impoverished, colonized, etc? tell me, where can i go in the whole FUCKING world where my people aren't looked down upon and exploited? i'm glad you found yours, but where's my haven?

and as for culture appropriation, if whites can be the ones who discovered electricity, invented to car, conquered the world, invented guns, are the symbols of civility, the world's best artists, authors, ballet dancers, and opera singers according to popular belief, blacks can be the ones who introduced rock 'n' roll and hip-hop to the world...maybe reading a book or two would help articulate some of this stuff a little bit more clearly. try howard zinn's "a people's history," bell hooks' "black looks," and "the killing rage," or richard dyer's "white."

peace

rhonda

>your ancestors came
>to the U.S. to escape
>oppression, so doesn't that point
>to your privilege, your haven
>is our jail. your
>refuge is our torture.
>there's something tragically poetic about
>that. tell me, where
>in the world can i
>go where blacks are not
>subjugate, marginalized, hated, impoverished, colonized,
>etc? tell me, where
>can i go in the
>whole FUCKING world where my
>people aren't looked down upon
>and exploited? i'm glad
>you found yours, but where's
>my haven?

Wow that paragraph really hit me hard. You just gave me a deeper understanding of the universality of racism right there. I will say though that I think many European countries are more progressive in the way races mix and interact, but not having been there I can't say it for a fact.

As for white privilege, it is not something one can ever get rid of, but it's certainly a valuable experience to recognize it wherever it presents itself. Bill Bradley has said that playing in the NBA really illuminated white privilege for him, especially when companies approached him for prodcut endorsements instead of his more talented black teammates. I also think Bradley has the deepest understanding of race of any white politician and he is certainly in the actively anti-racist category in my book. If only he had an ounce of charisma we could now be heading in an entirely different direction in this country.

MJ

We keep it type raw, and know exactly what we fight for / when the nightfall come, we in the right war / Cats who spill blood for a cause, not just because / Defy the authority and follow God's law / Revolutionary entrepeneurs... - Talib

>your ancestors came
>to the U.S. to escape
>oppression, so doesn't that point
>to your privilege, your haven
>is our jail. your
>refuge is our torture.
>there's something tragically poetic about
>that. tell me, where
>in the world can i
>go where blacks are not
>subjugate, marginalized, hated, impoverished, colonized,
>etc? tell me, where
>can i go in the
>whole FUCKING world where my
>people aren't looked down upon
>and exploited? i'm glad
>you found yours, but where's
>my haven?

i dont even know what to say that paragraph was sooo truthful, if u wanna call it that, it was so much more, u know it hit me, the depth of it, thats the answer to the entire black struggle-or rather the question- everything, from the day the first shipload of africans arrived in the new world n through till today... it hurts... what can we do i feel helpless if black people themselves dont even understand the struggle what can we do...

>My ancestors came to the U.S.
>to escape the same thing you
>were facing here.

Just out of curiosity, what is your original background? I am curious to know how white poeple were coming to the U.S. to "escape" oppression, yet they felt okay in "oppressing" Blacks?

my background is german austrian african n indian- maybe im wrong, but i always thought the europeans fled to the new world for religious freedom n to escape the religious oppression of their world- the irony is, that after all that they did feel like it was ok to enslave africans n nobody said that makes sense- most white people back then didnt even think blacks were human- that was what part of the paragraph was about the ignorance of oppression- to the whites it wasnt oppression it was their nature so they didnt see nething wrong w/ that- nobody said thats right

Only a certain small minority of people originally came to America seeking religous freedom. These same people conducted the salem witch trials. But outside of New England, every place else was settled by folks in search of fortune, ie a better life.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

alright cool im sorry- forgot about the rest of america...thnx
~peace

don't forget that some of the south were originally prison colonies...similar to Australia.

>The fact is
>you all feel that ALL
>white people are COMPLETE evil.

I don't.


>Every Black criminal
>was set up

only if you're blind enough to believe it. some should be under the jail. but that doesn't diminish the fact that the justice system is not all it can be...it goes both ways

>and all
>popular music was invented by
>black people.

shit, a lot of it WAS

>My ancestors
>came to the U.S. to
>escape the same thing you
>were facing here. I
>am insulted

that's true. but seems they acted like they didn't understand the concept of "do unto others"

L.

GO RAVENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I <3 Freestyle!!

"some(t(hing) -o) m(o(t(ivate) -he) ) -ind t(o never stop) -hinkin' and c(reating) (-ause) -reat(i(on) -s) l(ife and)ife is reproduced th(rough) fresh (-houghts) -hat c(ome, when you let ) -reativity find you.." ~~Giovanni

"I'm from the land where a man who calls himself Jesus and drives a stolen car" ~~SayNoGo

"What cements us/is just as important as what prevents us/from being attentive/Cause the spiritual divide causes us all to collide/ in a manner that’s most intensive" ~~WordMosaic

"how can she sing/holy songs/'bout baby jesus/and mary/and not come/and save me from choking/on sweet youth mixed with mildew/that keeps clinging to my memories/cause this ain't the first time/grandma forget to save me and/my momma forgot to save me.../just always said "jesus wants you to save your flowers"/but my jesus forgot to save me too" ~~beyond_levels

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

nobody said ALL white people are evil, nor did anyone say this was a HORRIBLE country, or half the other things u put in this boards mouth. the fact is, i think people are basically sayin black folks gotta stick up for themselves, n not against white people in general, but against peoples way of thinking. if u dont see the way whites n blacks in america are treated differently than u really need to look harder then do some more thinkin. sorry im not tryin to offend u, i guess that was ur opinion which ur entitled too- im just sayin i dont believe it was based on fair reasoning.
~peace



"By no means have i forgotten whats been dont to me but i do know the Devil aint no white man the Devils a spiritual mind..."~common

in the same way it effects Blacks. For us it provided determinations for reality that we could never see and for them it provides a reality that they will never reach.

The danger of racism is not that it sets a certain class up with privilege but that it takes priveleges that are inalienable (integrity, liberty) and supposes to redistribute them. That worked out well for "whites" initially but it like anything- will unravle eventually.

As Rage says- you cant win goin against the direction of the earth. The longer "whites" cling to their privelege the more they will find those privileges whittled down to compensate for the greed of the "white" authority.

"Whites" are ideologically considered superior as such they enable class distinctions even within their own group. at some point this will mean that the privileges of the intraracial lower class will be superceded by the privelege of the higher class- in this case the US government.

Do you think rednecks will be privileged in the new millenium- are they privileged now?

As much as we claim that "whites" are privileged the obvious truth is that privilege by no means demonstrates stability, or security, or even productivity. Much like a ho draped in gold chains- you may look good but you're still gonna get fucked in the end.

K

They can't discuss hip hop in peace. (unless it's on their own website)
They are always the oppressor, and it leads to what I hear, a lot of guilt.
They never really know if they've been accepted.
They don't try to do certain things, cause white folks aren't supposed to.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

...I almost agree. I think one of the great things about hiphop (and all music) is that it can be discussed in peace, and usually is.

>They are always the oppressor, and
>it leads to what I
>hear, a lot of guilt.

White oppression (or just majority oppression)is AN oppressor, not THE oppressor. There are certainly others. It's most powerful oppressor, certainly, but not the only one.

>They never really know if they've
>been accepted.

I think this is the opposite of the truth. White people often *suffer* from an "accepted" status. They become complacent as the cultural/societal/economical status quo. That's one of the real dangers in racism.

>They don't try to do certain
>things, cause white folks aren't
>supposed to.

Like what?

Alek
____________________________
"All I want is the truth,
just gimme some truth."

____________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What? What?

>>They don't try to do certain
>>things, cause white folks aren't
>>supposed to.

>Like what?

like associating or even understanding Blacks

>>>They don't try to do certain
>>>things, cause white folks aren't
>>>supposed to.

>>Like what?

>like associating or even understanding Blacks

...what do you call this board and most hiphop concerts and union organizing and...

I don't think it's quite so categorical.

Alek

________________________________
"Say some shit that suprise me...
My face won't change."

____________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What? What?

>...I almost agree. I think
>one of the great things
>about hiphop (and all music)
>is that it can be
>discussed in peace, and usually
>is.

It's not. Go through the lesson, and see how many posts that are seemingly non-racial, become racial.

>>They are always the oppressor, and
>>it leads to what I
>>hear, a lot of guilt.
>
>White oppression (or just majority oppression)is
>AN oppressor, not THE oppressor.

If you care to name the other oppressors, I think someone could easily point out the "whiteness". Cause last time I checked, blacks and latinos weren't running multinational corporations that subvert governments all over the globe. But I won't get Ras Kassian in my analysis.

>I think this is the opposite
>of the truth. White
>people often *suffer* from an
>"accepted" status.

I meant by black folks. There is always a tension btw black and white friends in this country.

>>They don't try to do certain
>>things, cause white folks aren't
>>supposed to.
>
>Like what?

what Koala said.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

K

peace & blessings,

x.


January is Kool Keith quote month, for lack of anything else:

"I never hearda you stupid, what's your name man??"

"Rappers don't know, I'm out the hospital/
cold buggin' and illin' like Dr. Doolittle"

"I'll chew your ass like monkeys on Wild Kingdom"

"you call yourself GOD, can you make it rain?/
can you tell me now what I'm thinkin' in my brain?"

"under your arms, you're kickin power and musty"

"word to mom, I'm in my own world.../
galaxy raaaaaays... powerful"

peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just
focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and
not having much to show for it. (c) mad

>It's not. Go through the
>lesson, and see how many
>posts that are seemingly non-racial,
>become racial.

Fair enough. But a) it's still a peaceful and (pretty much) respectful discussion, and b) most of the people on these boards care an inordinate amount about both music and race (not that that's bad, but it's not the norm).


>>White oppression (or just majority oppression)is
>>AN oppressor, not THE oppressor.

>If you care to name the
>other oppressors, I think someone
>could easily point out the
>"whiteness".

First off, I said "majority oppression." And within minority of communities there is plenty of oppression. It's not just "The Man."

>Cause last time
>I checked, blacks and latinos
>weren't running multinational corporations that
>subvert governments all over the
>globe.

No, but those governments aren't just being "subverted." They greedily welcome MNC's and destroy their own populations through that collusion. AND, those are Third World governments run mainly by what you'd call minorities.

>There is always a tension
>btw black and white friends
>in this country.

Often, not always.

Alek


________________________________
"Say some shit that suprise me...
My face won't change."

____________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What? What?

i am really offended by this statement. I am a white uy that will try anything once because I want too and that is that. I can't believe in this world where racism is dying that we still have people that want to give the "whites" a qucik shot in the chest. Cheap. I don't believe in one race ore another, perhaps the whites of yesteryear had certain things that they just didn't do but things are changing for the better now. and by the way I don't even have a web site that I canm discuss hip with you on but I have no problem talking about it seeing as I have been into hip hop for about 20 years i may even have a better knowledge of some of it then you. So when you have something to say about "WHITE" people make sure next time you know what the hell you are talking about.

1 generation 1 race

you managed to claim that racism was dying while claiming you were "white" then claiming that you didnt believe in one race or another.

which way is it?

I only state that i am "white" to show the writer that even though I may be so called white that i don't feel the same way that that this person thinks i should feel. I do believe in one race I just hope that everyone would see it that way. Although racism is disappearing what i believe may be irrelavent when in this day in age where people like the writer still says that the "whiteman" does this or that when in reality this man does neither. I am a human and that is how i precieve everyone else, it's to bad that not all can see one another as one race and not abunch of races, i really hope that you see the equalibrium of human kind the way I believe that it should be seen.

1 race, 1 love among all humankind

This is not to dis the content of your post, but only to question the use of the term "anti-racist." Having read Frances Cress Welsing and Neely Fuller Jr., I've come to the opinion that the language one uses to describe social phenomena should be precise and constructive. Words should be used constructively. Anyways, when you say "anti-racist," I think what you are ultimately suggesting are behaviors that appear to function in opposition to racism, without actually functioning to eliminate racism - which is what everyone should be doing: We should all be working to eliminate racism, and produce justice and correctness. It's the same distinction between a "white liberal" who hangs around groups of Black people and complains about racism while purging his (or her) guilt with long, meaningless speeches, and a white person (say, a journalist) who works to educate people in the public forums about the plight of U.S. political prisoners, oftimes against the dictates of the government.

I think the word we need to be using is "counter-racist," for obvious reasons. "Anti-" suggests mere opposition without function; "counter-" suggests an oppositional function against another function. I've got more to say on this issue too.

forrest

Whoops. I hope I didn't make it too "stuffy" in here!

im realizing the big hole were all in now, n i feel powerless. i feel like im watching my brothers just fall.... like nobody cares nemore, n the peopel that do care dont care enough n i think its time to do sumthing about it i dont know how much u who r reading this are willing to change things, peoples minds, but if u r, we gotta start thinkin about it. im talkin about the struggle, n i think this time its more within ourselves than against the white people i know a lot of us probly know gangbangers, i do, n i thought the answer was so simple- gangs are self enslavement, theyre wrong, n if i just got people to understand that theyd leave- but its so much more complicated than that some people r in it b/c their families r in it n they need the protection so if thyre not in it theyll get killed neway n so many more reasons so whatdo we do...what do they do...n the rest of the self destructing portion of the black community consumes themselves in ignorance n continually belittles themselves... n where do we begin... i mean the music isnt helpin b/c it doenst get played on mainstream radio... so what else can we do?

See the last two sentences of my post #29. Listen to track #4 on PE's Muse Sick-N-Hour Mess Age. Think. Pray if you must.

PEACE

Suggestions, connotations, are by defenition subjective. If you want to set forth a scientific vocabulary, that would be nice; but the only real solution is excessive verbiage so that NO one will misunderstand. Of course, at that point, you lose the message in a sea of correctness. So my proposition is that you make the statement as intelligently and succinctly as possible, and correct it as necessary when people misunderstand.

You didn't misunderstand, so why bitch about it?

of course whites suffer from the colonization of their minds, just as black folk do. they're shackled too. while it is not even close to what blacks and other marginalized groups have been through, whites and blacks and asians and latinos and indigenous peoples and homosexuals all suffer from the curtailing of the freedom to decide what and who we will be outside of the context of the racist, sexist, homophobic norm. whites are victims of the deception too. this does not excuse them from any accountability for their unwarranted privilege, but it does mean that we are not the only victims of the charade of freedom and equality.

rhonda

>Does racism affect "whites" ?

I think it does, in a sense. (disclaimer: Yes, I am aware of the argument of this being impossible because they are the "oppressor" class vs. the "oppressed" but for the sake of simplicity...)

Anyway, I think it's negative for them because it can trickle down to an individual level, causing people of color to see them as oppressive and negative human beings, even if they are not.

Poor whites really catch it. They are often assumed to be better off just because they're white no matter what their economic status.

In addition, this "white privilege" allows them to live in a state of perpetual ignorance to the plight of peoples unlike themselves. I was watching Mad City last night, and a woman speaking to John Travolta's character said, "well, how do you feel about people in Russia who's situation is much worse than yours?" Too many Americans (of all colors)are unwilling to take responsibility for the poverty and misery in their backyards. Attitudes like this, it seems to me, are especially prominent in the white middle class; they'd die to save Tibet, but look right through the homeless guy downtown.

That's just the tip of the iceberg. But bottom line: yeah they'd benefit. They'd probably LEARN something.

L.

GO RAVENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I <3 Freestyle!!

"some(t(hing) -o) m(o(t(ivate) -he) ) -ind t(o never stop) -hinkin' and c(reating) (-ause) -reat(i(on) -s) l(ife and)ife is reproduced th(rough) fresh (-houghts) -hat c(ome, when you let ) -reativity find you.." ~~Giovanni

"I'm from the land where a man who calls himself Jesus and drives a stolen car" ~~SayNoGo

"What cements us/is just as important as what prevents us/from being attentive/Cause the spiritual divide causes us all to collide/ in a manner that’s most intensive" ~~WordMosaic

"how can she sing/holy songs/'bout baby jesus/and mary/and not come/and save me from choking/on sweet youth mixed with mildew/that keeps clinging to my memories/cause this ain't the first time/grandma forget to save me and/my momma forgot to save me.../just always said "jesus wants you to save your flowers"/but my jesus forgot to save me too" ~~beyond_levels

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

i could see where yall r comin from- they attained that advantage so they should be able to keep it, n what do they have to attain by losing it- well i feel like by having a so-called 'racial advantage' theyre missin out on a lot-also a lot of non-whites look down on whites for their "superiority," theres a stereo type for whites too, n thats a part of it- were all one people, n if were not gaining anything by their advantage then somehow neither are they- like as long as they have an advantage were not on common ground, we can never understand each other, their on another ground, another level, y should they want to come down to our level, but at the same time, i feel like while theyre on that pedistal, theyre missin out what the black community has to teach- all they see is the surface, those demeaning videos n they think thats what black people are about- theyre on another level the way society puts it, so they wouldnt even think of a place like okayplayer where there are intelligent black people who listen to a different kind of hip hop so i think they have knowledge to gain by at least humbling their status- n knowledge probly doesnt seem like much compared to money n power, but thats the question- whats more important- to me i think knowledge is the key to a peaceful world for anybody, but i know a lot of people dont think it would make much of a difference for whites- sorry for such a long winded post

You brought it back- so i didnt have to.

You know my feelings on the issue so Ill be brief. We can dance around whether or not "whites" could relinquish their race but the fact is race is nothing more than an idea so if a "white" person can change their mind (or god forbid learn) then they can most certainly relinquish race.

It doesnt matter if you dont think they will- or even if you dont think they should. It doesnt matter if race is poltically and categorically real and thus real enough or convenient enough to use.

If "white" people continue subscribing to ideas of race the damage of subverting culture and oppressing ethnic people will continue to haunt them. Reciprocity is the key here.

I never told anybody that they werent "white" for my sake- trust me - if you dont change your thinking immediately; you'll be very very sorry.

K

If we look at other countries, there a groups of the same people being oppressed, such as in Eastern Europe and East Africa. As long as there is a difference in anyway between groups of people there will be discrimination.

I have a number of points I felt I should make about your post. I'll try to brief myself...but I don't know how successful I will be.

>You know my feelings on the
>issue so Ill be brief.
>We can dance around whether
>or not "whites" could relinquish
>their race but the fact
>is race is nothing more
>than an idea so if
>a "white" person can change
>their mind (or god forbid
>learn) then they can most
>certainly relinquish race.

That's not true. Race is an organization, signified by an idea. To cite Welsing, there is only one "race" worth mentioning, and that is the "white race." As long as white supremacy exists, every other "race's" attempts at replicating that idea is a charade. We can put the word "white" in quotes as much as we want to while trying (or pretending) to be intellectually rigorous, but the fact is that laws exist to defend whiteness. Surely, you've heard of the "one drop" law?


>It doesnt matter if you dont
>think they will- or even
>if you dont think they
>should. It doesnt matter if
>race is poltically and categorically
>real and thus real enough
>or convenient enough to use.

No, it does matter if race is politically and categorically real enough and convenient enough to use. It's all dressed-up in clever political double-speak and zoning laws, but the reality of race negatively affects Black people daily. It mattered when hundreds of Black people were corralled to Jonestown in Africa and mass-murdered. You can pretend that a problem doesn't exist and has zero basis in reality, but your denial may very well be your own undoing.


>If "white" people continue subscribing to
>ideas of race the damage
>of subverting culture and oppressing
>ethnic people will continue to
>haunt them. Reciprocity is the
>key here.

Your first statement is true, although I don't know if I ultimately agree with your use of the quotes in the first sentence. White people will continue to be damaged by their corporations' subversion of culture - or the ecosystem. If not the white people who are considered "adults" now, then their children or their childrens' children will suffer horribly (as will ALL children) for the continuous destruction and imbalancing of our environment by all people on Earth - inspired by corporate activity and the practice of white supremacy, of course. I wouldn't personally worry too much about being "haunted." But cancer is a serious problem.


>I never told anybody that they
>werent "white" for my sake-
>trust me - if you
>dont change your thinking immediately;
>you'll be very very sorry.

No, because it currently doesn't make any sense to tell somebody that they aren't white. Society's present-day logic says that there are great benefits to being white. But noone has mentioned the health problems that the average, mainstream American worker suffers (many of them white) for working to support America's status quo. Or the mental problems. As bell hooks says, racism is mental illness. We can see the effects of that mental illness around us every day. It doesn't make popular "good sense" for Black people to tell white people in mainstream America to give up their whiteness, but it does make good sense for Black people to organize as a group that is self-determining and actively counter-racist to show the powers that be that it's in their best interests not to eff with us. We can teach by example.

forrest

>That's not true. Race is an
>organization, signified by an idea.

thats not correct- is there a race charter? are there race meetings- i would allow you to say there is a race community but seeing as race as we know it (paricularly the "white" race) is comprised of a wide variety of ethnicities and nationalities i dont see how you could presume them to be as unified organization much less organized.

>To cite Welsing, there is
>only one "race" worth mentioning,
>and that is the "white
>race." As long as white
>supremacy exists, every other "race's"
>attempts at replicating that idea
>is a charade.

No shit- Ive been saying that for quite some time. The only problem is race does extend beyond the "white" ideology as it can be a general term used to describe a subspecies.

> We can
>put the word "white" in
>quotes as much as we
>want to while trying (or
>pretending) to be intellectually rigorous,
>but the fact is that
>laws exist to defend whiteness.
>Surely, you've heard of the
>"one drop" law?

The law at one point defended lynching and murder of Blacks- are you suggesting I appreciate the laws as they ingratiate prejudiced ideas- thats nonsense. This isnt about putting words in quotes- this about realizing the truth and not philosophizing and justifying the lie.

>No, it does matter if race
>is politically and categorically real
>enough and convenient enough to
>use. It's all dressed-up in
>clever political double-speak and zoning
>laws, but the reality of
>race negatively affects Black people
>daily. It mattered when hundreds
>of Black people were corralled
>to Jonestown in Africa and
>mass-murdered. You can pretend that
>a problem doesn't exist and
>has zero basis in reality,
>but your denial may very
>well be your own undoing.

blah blah blah- if you wouldnt take my words out of context you might actually understand them. Directly following these comments I said...

>>If "white" people continue subscribing to
>>ideas of race the damage
>>of subverting culture and oppressing
>>ethnic people will continue to
>>haunt them. Reciprocity is the
>>key here.

The point is- Im not talking about being politically correct Im insisting that you pay attention to the lie that is being perpetrated and be aware of the consequences when it continues to breed destruction upon "white" people and the world. Im not saying race doesnt matter in the political sense- im saying thats no excuse to act like its ideology is true.

>Your first statement is true, although
>I don't know if I
>ultimately agree with your use
>of the quotes in the
>first sentence.

Are you really arguing against my punctuation- thats just stupid.

>White people will
>continue to be damaged by
>their corporations' subversion of culture
>- or the ecosystem. If
>not the white people who
>are considered "adults" now, then
>their children or their childrens'
>children will suffer horribly (as
>will ALL children) for the
>continuous destruction and imbalancing of
>our environment by all people
>on Earth - inspired by
>corporate activity and the practice
>of white supremacy, of course.
>I wouldn't personally worry too
>much about being "haunted." But
>cancer is a serious problem.

cancer aint nothing but a haunt- and Id recommend you respect them at least even if you arent worried. These people put out the impression of superiority and then doubletalk when you call em on it. Dont bother convincing me that they can be white under certain manipulations of discussion- they know they arent; and at some point they'll either admit it- or face dire consequences.

remember the twoer of babel?

>No, because it currently doesn't make
>any sense to tell somebody
>that they aren't white.

sorry charlie- thats a scientific fact. You can challenge science with poltics all ya want but until you can prove it genetically you're basically just defending racism.

>Society's
>present-day logic says that there
>are great benefits to being
>white. But noone has mentioned
>the health problems that the
>average, mainstream American worker suffers
>(many of them white) for
>working to support America's status
>quo. Or the mental problems.
>As bell hooks says, racism
>is mental illness. We can
>see the effects of that
>mental illness around us every
>day. It doesn't make popular
>"good sense" for Black people
>to tell white people in
>mainstream America to give up
>their whiteness, but it does
>make good sense for Black
>people to organize as a
>group that is self-determining and
>actively counter-racist to show the
>powers that be that it's
>in their best interests not
>to eff with us. We
>can teach by example.

No what makes sense is that we all need to realize that race ideology is racist philosophy and while it may make no sense to you to tell "white" people that they're living a lie- it certainly makes sense to me that you at least realize yourself that its not true and has caused the exact same damage that you consider a priority for the Black struggle. Im not saying "give up whiteness" Im saying admit that it never existed. Admit that you are British, Russian, Jewish, French, Irish American just as you have convinced us to claim to be African American. Admit that the science that provides that they are "white" is the same science that postualted that all other races were a subspecies and more derivative of apes than the exalted caucasian. Admit that culturally "whiteness" refers to not only a wide variety of people stolen form other cultures and ethnicities but a wide variety of customs and traditions stolen from other cultures and ethnicities- maybe even admit that whiteness also culturally refers to oppressing and slaughtering the people of those foreign cultures especially if they resisted "white" determinations.

after "white" people admit all that- then perhaps we can talk about them hanging on to race determinations; but if they still want such a "privilege" are they really to be trusted? How much longer do you think they'll survive.

K

God dont like ugly

Kenji, I don't think I want to pursue this dialogue with you much longer, simply because I see that we have extremely different philosophies and I have no desire to try to reconcile them. You appear to be bent with this discussion thread to want to affirm the primacy of "whiteness," even while you claim to be deconstructing it. It's just that simple - or else this thread would not be as long as it is. I came to this thread wanting to do the opposite of that. From my end, after a few days' posts, it appears that you are simply for engaging pointless, circular, damn near masturbatory dialogues with white people in this thread that seem to accomplish nothing.

Look closely over the posts that have been made on this thread since my last one and your own responses - and try to remove your ego from them. It should become blatantly clear to you that they are simply quantifying the primacy of whiteness.

Nonetheless, I will defend some of my statements here.

I wrote:

>>That's not true. Race is an
>>organization, signified by an idea.

You then wrote:

>thats not correct- is there a
>race charter? are there race
>meetings- i would allow you
>to say there is a
>race community but seeing as
>race as we know it
>(paricularly the "white" race) is
>comprised of a wide variety
>of ethnicities and nationalities i
>dont see how you could
>presume them to be as
>unified organization much less organized.

I meant that comparatively, next to any and all other races, white people constitute a superior organization. Compared to white people on a world scale, Black people are IMO (in my opinion) pathetically disorganized. And no, on the face, there are not race meetings, but essentially, given the manipulative nature of white supremacy which uses non-white people as pawns - that is exactly what politically take place in many different realms - race meetings. This is IMO a correct compensatory definition for certain political organizations, but that is my opinion and I will leave to yours. And you can't "allow" me or "disallow" me to say anything, ever. End of story.

And also, if you cannot see white people on a world scale as being politically unified as well as organized - well, sorry.

I wrote:

>>To cite Welsing, there is
>>only one "race" worth mentioning,
>>and that is the "white
>>race." As long as white
>>supremacy exists, every other "race's"
>>attempts at replicating that idea
>>is a charade.

You then wrote:

>No shit- Ive been saying that
>for quite some time. The
>only problem is race does
>extend beyond the "white" ideology
>as it can be a
>general term used to describe
>a subspecies.

Once again, you are simply arguing your own IMO confusing philosophy in the face of simple historical facts. White people invented the race concept. Check out De Gobineau. OF COURSE race extends to other so-called "races," because that's part of what the white supremacist equation represents: a superior race ruling over other supposedly inferior ones. This is pointless and circular argument.

I wrote:

>> We can
>>put the word "white" in
>>quotes as much as we
>>want to while trying (or
>>pretending) to be intellectually rigorous,
>>but the fact is that
>>laws exist to defend whiteness.
>>Surely, you've heard of the
>>"one drop" law?

You then wrote:

>The law at one point defended
>lynching and murder of Blacks-
>are you suggesting I appreciate
>the laws as they ingratiate
>prejudiced ideas- thats nonsense. This
>isnt about putting words in
>quotes- this about realizing the
>truth and not philosophizing and
>justifying the lie.

and:

>The point is- Im not talking
>about being politically correct Im
>insisting that you pay attention
>to the lie that is
>being perpetrated and be aware
>of the consequences when it
>continues to breed destruction upon
>"white" people and the world.
>Im not saying race doesnt
>matter in the political sense-
>im saying thats no excuse
>to act like its ideology
>is true.

This is more pointless and masturbatory blather. But at least you admitted that race matters in the political sense - which is a start. I didn't suggest that you "appreciate the laws" as they "ingratiate (sic) prejudiced ideas." I am suggesting that people realize that there are laws in existence in the U.S. that help to delineate and defend white supremacy. I fail to see how you can call that nonsense. I'm only hoping to get people to see the facts that help some people to justify their truths...including some Black people. But your statement about destruction being bred upon "'white' people and the world" really seems to imply for me that white people are a big concern for you. That's cool...you can have your cup of tea. I'll pass.

You also wrote:

>Are you really arguing against my
>punctuation- thats just stupid.

No, I was arguing that your naive suggestion that placing the word "white" in quotes will make any meaningful difference against white supremacy is foolish. Your punctuation is pathetic - but that's a different issue.

You then wrote:

>cancer aint nothing but a haunt-
>and Id recommend you respect
>them at least even if
>you arent worried. These people
>put out the impression of
>superiority and then doubletalk when
>you call em on it.
>Dont bother convincing me that
>they can be white under
>certain manipulations of discussion- they
>know they arent; and at
>some point they'll either admit
>it- or face dire consequences.

Cancer ain't nothin' but a haunt? Alright, Cochise. And don't worry about where I place my respect - "respect" is the reason why I don't check these boards as much as you do.

>remember the twoer of babel?

Huh?

I also wrote:

>>No, because it currently doesn't make
>>any sense to tell somebody
>>that they aren't white.

You wrote:

>sorry charlie- thats a scientific fact.
>You can challenge science with
>poltics all ya want but
>until you can prove it
>genetically you're basically just defending
>racism.

Yes, it is a scientific fact, and no, I am not defending racism. But I don't see much point in restating it anymore that we clearly have different philosophical viewpoints and that seems final.

You also wrote:

>No what makes sense is that
>we all need to realize
>that race ideology is racist
>philosophy and while it may
>make no sense to you
>to tell "white" people that
>they're living a lie- it
>certainly makes sense to me
>that you at least realize
>yourself that its not true
>and has caused the exact
>same damage that you consider
>a priority for the Black
>struggle. Im not saying "give
>up whiteness" Im saying admit
>that it never existed. Admit
>that you are British, Russian,
>Jewish, French, Irish American just
>as you have convinced us
>to claim to be African
>American. Admit that the science
>that provides that they are
>"white" is the same science
>that postualted that all other
>races were a subspecies and
>more derivative of apes than
>the exalted caucasian. Admit that
>culturally "whiteness" refers to not
>only a wide variety of
>people stolen form other cultures
>and ethnicities but a wide
>variety of customs and traditions
>stolen from other cultures and
>ethnicities- maybe even admit that
>whiteness also culturally refers to
>oppressing and slaughtering the people
>of those foreign cultures especially
>if they resisted "white" determinations.

It's true that whiteness never existed on a scientific scale. Sheeit, one of the most clever stunts that white people pulled on the world in the last decade IMO laid in their arguing to non-white people that "race doesn't matter" and "we should forget about slavery," all the while holding onto their unjust privileges that were gained through centuries of slavery and discrimination. Indeed, until we can see a renunciation of whiteness by so-called "white people," along with the redistribution of wealth for the country's dispossessed, and the dismantling of racist institutions, your argument is a waste of time.

As for whiteness having caused the same damage that I consider "a priority for the Black struggle" - what do you mean by that?
I'm one of the first people who still cares about Black folks and will argue against the falsehood of Black essentialism. Black essentialism would mean that I have to accept everyone with "black skin" as a brother - and reading some of these posts, I know that ain't happenin'!

You then wrote:

>after "white" people admit all that-
>then perhaps we can talk
>about them hanging on to
>race determinations; but if they
>still want such a "privilege"
>are they really to be
>trusted? How much longer do
>you think they'll survive.

I'm sure that to varying extents, many white people have already admitted all of that - which is what led me to make the closing statement in my last post, "Here are some responses." As for how much longer I think white people will survive - as long as they hold onto superior power in this country, I think those people will survive.

You wrote:

>God dont like ugly

Neither do I, KoalaLove, neither do I.

peacefornow

>Kenji, I don't think I want
>to pursue this dialogue with
>you much longer, simply because
>I see that we have
>extremely different philosophies and I
>have no desire to try
>to reconcile them.

okayplayers be getting me heated calling me out my name and shit- but whatever

can you explain what you mean by the primacy of whiteness

>>>That's not true. Race is an
>>>organization, signified by an idea.

>I meant that comparatively, next to
>any and all other races,
>white people constitute a superior
>organization. Compared to white people
>on a world scale, Black
>people are IMO (in my
>opinion) pathetically disorganized. And no,
>on the face, there are
>not race meetings, but essentially,
>given the manipulative nature of
>white supremacy which uses non-white
>people as pawns - that
>is exactly what politically take
>place in many different realms
>- race meetings. This is
>IMO a correct compensatory definition
>for certain political organizations, but
>that is my opinion and
>I will leave to yours.
>And you can't "allow" me
>or "disallow" me to say
>anything, ever. End of story.

teh problem is this organization still disenfranchises a large number of supposedly "white" people. Do Russian imigrants count- they cant- cuz they're broke as shit. Do jews count- not really cuz they associate primarily with their own kind. i disagree with your term organization because although the category of "whiteness" maintains a privelege the people who are considered "white" are not unified and live in a wide variety of disparaging positions.

the "white" race is not an organization- its a pyramid scam

>And also, if you cannot see
>white people on a world
>scale as being politically unified
>as well as organized -
>well, sorry.

white people donte xist on a world scale- Kosovo wasnt unified- those were all supposedly "white" people slaughtering each other.
Are the people of France, Belgium, Britain, Russia, america and Spain politically unified?

>I wrote:
>
>>>To cite Welsing, there is
>>>only one "race" worth mentioning,
>>>and that is the "white
>>>race." As long as white
>>>supremacy exists, every other "race's"
>>>attempts at replicating that idea
>>>is a charade.
>
>You then wrote:
>
>>No shit- Ive been saying that
>>for quite some time. The
>>only problem is race does
>>extend beyond the "white" ideology
>>as it can be a
>>general term used to describe
>>a subspecies.
>
>Once again, you are simply arguing
>your own IMO confusing philosophy
>in the face of simple
>historical facts. White people invented
>the race concept. Check out
>De Gobineau. OF COURSE race
>extends to other so-called "races,"
>because that's part of what
>the white supremacist equation represents:
>a superior race ruling over
>other supposedly inferior ones. This
>is pointless and circular argument.

thats cuz you misinterpretted my argument- my point was that race extends beyond this context also because of its use scientifically and bilogically where it refers to subspecies. I totally dispute the use of the term race to describe human variety but other species do exhibit this variant quality.

>I wrote:
>
>>> We can
>>>put the word "white" in
>>>quotes as much as we
>>>want to while trying (or
>>>pretending) to be intellectually rigorous,
>>>but the fact is that
>>>laws exist to defend whiteness.
>>>Surely, you've heard of the
>>>"one drop" law?
>
>You then wrote:
>
>>The law at one point defended
>>lynching and murder of Blacks-
>>are you suggesting I appreciate
>>the laws as they ingratiate
>>prejudiced ideas- thats nonsense. This
>>isnt about putting words in
>>quotes- this about realizing the
>>truth and not philosophizing and
>>justifying the lie.
>
>and:
>
>>The point is- Im not talking
>>about being politically correct Im
>>insisting that you pay attention
>>to the lie that is
>>being perpetrated and be aware
>>of the consequences when it
>>continues to breed destruction upon
>>"white" people and the world.
>>Im not saying race doesnt
>>matter in the political sense-
>>im saying thats no excuse
>>to act like its ideology
>>is true.
>
>This is more pointless and masturbatory
>blather. But at least you
>admitted that race matters in
>the political sense - which
>is a start. I didn't
>suggest that you "appreciate the
>laws" as they "ingratiate (sic)
>prejudiced ideas." I am suggesting
>that people realize that there
>are laws in existence in
>the U.S. that help to
>delineate and defend white supremacy.
>I fail to see how
>you can call that nonsense.
>I'm only hoping to get
>people to see the facts
>that help some people to
>justify their truths...including some Black
>people. But your statement about
>destruction being bred upon "'white'
>people and the world" really
>seems to imply for me
>that white people are a
>big concern for you. That's
>cool...you can have your cup
>of tea. I'll pass.

YUCK- the point was teh same as always. A culture built on supression of culture will fail and it will take the people it has indoctrinated along with it- no matter how much they demand that its all good cuz society did it.

>You also wrote:
>
>>Are you really arguing against my
>>punctuation- thats just stupid.
>
>No, I was arguing that your
>naive suggestion that placing the
>word "white" in quotes will
>make any meaningful difference against
>white supremacy is foolish. Your
>punctuation is pathetic - but
>that's a different issue.

YUCK- too bad i never said that

>You then wrote:
>
>>cancer aint nothing but a haunt-
>>and Id recommend you respect
>>them at least even if
>>you arent worried. These people
>>put out the impression of
>>superiority and then doubletalk when
>>you call em on it.
>>Dont bother convincing me that
>>they can be white under
>>certain manipulations of discussion- they
>>know they arent; and at
>>some point they'll either admit
>>it- or face dire consequences.
>
>Cancer ain't nothin' but a haunt?
>Alright, Cochise. And don't worry
>about where I place my
>respect - "respect" is the
>reason why I don't check
>these boards as much as
>you do.

YUCK- you dont cuz you probably have trouble reading all the big words- you print the shit out and read it at home dont you

>>remember the twoer of babel?
>
>Huh?

oops bi-syllabic words must be a problem too

>I also wrote:
>
>>>No, because it currently doesn't make
>>>any sense to tell somebody
>>>that they aren't white.
>
>You wrote:
>
>>sorry charlie- thats a scientific fact.
>>You can challenge science with
>>poltics all ya want but
>>until you can prove it
>>genetically you're basically just defending
>>racism.
>
>Yes, it is a scientific fact,
>and no, I am not
>defending racism. But I don't
>see much point in restating
>it anymore that we clearly
>have different philosophical viewpoints and
>that seems final.

so then stop typing chump

>You also wrote:
>
>>No what makes sense is that
>>we all need to realize
>>that race ideology is racist
>>philosophy and while it may
>>make no sense to you
>>to tell "white" people that
>>they're living a lie- it
>>certainly makes sense to me
>>that you at least realize
>>yourself that its not true
>>and has caused the exact
>>same damage that you consider
>>a priority for the Black
>>struggle. Im not saying "give
>>up whiteness" Im saying admit
>>that it never existed. Admit
>>that you are British, Russian,
>>Jewish, French, Irish American just
>>as you have convinced us
>>to claim to be African
>>American. Admit that the science
>>that provides that they are
>>"white" is the same science
>>that postualted that all other
>>races were a subspecies and
>>more derivative of apes than
>>the exalted caucasian. Admit that
>>culturally "whiteness" refers to not
>>only a wide variety of
>>people stolen form other cultures
>>and ethnicities but a wide
>>variety of customs and traditions
>>stolen from other cultures and
>>ethnicities- maybe even admit that
>>whiteness also culturally refers to
>>oppressing and slaughtering the people
>>of those foreign cultures especially
>>if they resisted "white" determinations.
>
>It's true that whiteness never existed
>on a scientific scale. Sheeit,
>one of the most clever
>stunts that white people pulled
>on the world in the
>last decade IMO laid in
>their arguing to non-white people
>that "race doesn't matter" and
>"we should forget about slavery,"
>all the while holding onto
>their unjust privileges that were
>gained through centuries of slavery
>and discrimination. Indeed, until we
>can see a renunciation of
>whiteness by so-called "white people,"
>along with the redistribution of
>wealth for the country's dispossessed,
>and the dismantling of racist
>institutions, your argument is a
>waste of time.

so isnt yours- seeinga s your only arguing against me (and my punctuation)

>As for whiteness having caused the
>same damage that I consider
>"a priority for the Black
>struggle" - what do you
>mean by that?
>I'm one of the first people
>who still cares about Black
>folks and will argue against
>the falsehood of Black essentialism.
>Black essentialism would mean that
>I have to accept everyone
>with "black skin" as a
>brother - and reading some
>of these posts, I know
>that ain't happenin'!

i dont even know what youre talking about here

>You then wrote:
>
>>after "white" people admit all that-
>>then perhaps we can talk
>>about them hanging on to
>>race determinations; but if they
>>still want such a "privilege"
>>are they really to be
>>trusted? How much longer do
>>you think they'll survive.
>
>I'm sure that to varying extents,
>many white people have already
>admitted all of that -
>which is what led me
>to make the closing statement
>in my last post, "Here
>are some responses." As for
>how much longer I think
>white people will survive -
>as long as they hold
>onto superior power in this
>country, I think those people
>will survive.

ever heard of colombine?

K

My Okayplayer name is "peacefornow," but you can call me Mr. Green if you like...or you can just call me "peacefornow." I'm not a leader, but I like to point out important facts when I can.

I'm not a nationalist, but I do have nationalist leanings. I'm a humanist. I like Freire. And Malcolm X. And Toni Morrison.

When I said the primacy of whiteness, I simply meant something that I as an artist & an intellectual have always tried to avoid in my works -- the idea of whiteness coming first; being chief in importance; the center of any rational, logical, sane universe.

Again, I was simply stating that black people shouldn't look to other people for everything that they need - and you read the rest.

PEACE

you're claiming that my focus is this primacy of whiteness?

check the archives man

http://www.okayplayer.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=250&forum=DCForumID1&archive=yes

...

should they? yes, could any minority groups gain anything? maybe the damage is done with all the sterotyping and a fucked up system and the Western mentality, we're all in a Western dominated world, whether we are in Asia or Africa, etc. all we can do is work with the system, contain our rightful hate (or strong dislike of it) of it, and change it from with in................luv

couldnt agree more~ peace




"She went from nigger to colored to negro to black to afro then african american n right back to nigga..." ~Talib Kweli

Sorry to say this but you're sounding like a nazi, especially your last paragraph.

If racism is a mental disease, then there is as many blacks suffering from mental illness as whites.

You will be sorry.

there IS still the issue of whether they CAN give it up. because no matter what i think, and no matter what's in my head, when i go for that job interview, i'm still seen as white and i still have that priviledge. when i go into a department store, they see my skin and they don't follow me around. i can stop accepting the idea of whiteness. but how can i stop others from treating me as white in such situations? THAT is the issue i'm trying to raise here.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

V I V R A N C E
TinkyWinky - marley marl
Vivrant - Pete Rock
bfnh - Premier
guinness - Jay Dee
Mosaic - Hi Tek
Illwill - Hank Shocklee
SqueegieXM - Prince Paul
Kay Dee - Buckwild
Raina - Jazzy Joyce
phil - The Rza
nickelz45 - Diamond D
Donwill - Automator
honorable mention:
fire - fire

"Where the F*CK is my purse icon??????"

:::::::::::::
"And I know what the fuck an option quarterback is. He's the black QB under six feet that ends up being converted to wide receiver once he's selected on day two of the NFL draft because he can't hit the ocean from the edge of a boat."

--

Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but that's not an issue for me. I can't be distracted by anyone with "white" skin, staring into my face and asking me "How do I rid myself of my white privilege?" firstly, because I'm Black. If you are accepted by most "white people" as "white" and you have a problem with it, then you should strive to become counter-racist like so many other people already function as in this world. How you deal with your privileges can never be an issue for me.

Most of the time, I don't want to think about parting with my privileges. And I hardly ever go to the mall.

Maybe the next question I should ask is, why would someone who isn't white want to be white or claim whiteness? I've heard it said by non-white people before and I've read it on the 'Net too. Some of the reasoning seems obvious, but it just doesn't make sense to me. The history of white peoples' relations with non-white people all over the world is anything but glamourous.

PEACE
- forrest


P.S: Excuse me for my harshness in the part of my last post about peoples' suffering due to the environment's poisoning and getting disrespected, but that S*** pisses me off!

but understand, this IS an issue. not your issue, you have mucher bigger bullshit to deal with on a daily basis because of your skin color. but whether i accept the reality of "white" as a based classification or not, i can't erase its acceptance in the larger culture. i'm trying to expand the dialogue here on how light-skinned european americans can not only reject their own "whiteness" but also how they can see that this whiteness is not still projected upon them by the society in which they live.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

V I V R A N C E
TinkyWinky - marley marl
Vivrant - Pete Rock
bfnh - Premier
guinness - Jay Dee
Mosaic - Hi Tek
Illwill - Hank Shocklee
SqueegieXM - Prince Paul
Kay Dee - Buckwild
Raina - Jazzy Joyce
phil - The Rza
nickelz45 - Diamond D
Donwill - Automator
honorable mention:
fire - fire

"Where the F*CK is my purse icon??????"

:::::::::::::
"And I know what the fuck an option quarterback is. He's the black QB under six feet that ends up being converted to wide receiver once he's selected on day two of the NFL draft because he can't hit the ocean from the edge of a boat."

--

and not being a silent accomplice when hearing racist remarks from collegues/friends/family.

and that's just a start.

To me that's = rejecting it the very moment you are considered to confirm your whiteness.




krewc
http://www.vinylators.com

krewcial
www.krewcial.com
www.myspace.com/krewcial
www.okayplayer.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=23051&forum=lesson

http://www.23hq.com/krewcial/photo/1085564?album_id=1085556

Nashville recording sessions : www.krewcial.com/nashville

>To me that's = rejecting it
>the very moment you are
>considered to confirm your whiteness.

But society will still see them as "White" so they might as well accept that!! as a matter of fact- still sees us as dispensible niggers so we might as well lay down.

I wish you guys had a better argument to cling to your whiteness- this one isnt cutting it.

K

because that's not what i said. this is why it's so hard to have a discussion with you. the OBVIOUS and CLEAR intention of what i said was to push the dialogue away from the "we are not white" direction that has already been done absolutely the fuck to death on this site, and towards a real, pragmatic discussion of how we can move from a conceptual, personal rejection of whiteness towards a societal acknowledgement of the falsehood of such a racial classification. once we stop being "white" to ourselves, how do we move to undermine the white privilege that others will automatically attempt to give us, regardless? see, krewcial's making an effort to engage in dialogue here. i VALUE what he's saying in his post, it makes sense, i'd like to know if others can help to breed ideas here. how many times to people have to say they agree with you before you stop trying to attack them?

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

V I V R A N C E
TinkyWinky - marley marl
Vivrant - Pete Rock
bfnh - Premier
guinness - Jay Dee
Mosaic - Hi Tek
Illwill - Hank Shocklee
SqueegieXM - Prince Paul
Kay Dee - Buckwild
Raina - Jazzy Joyce
phil - The Rza
nickelz45 - Diamond D
Donwill - Automator
honorable mention:
fire - fire

"Where the F*CK is my purse icon??????"

:::::::::::::
"And I know what the fuck an option quarterback is. He's the black QB under six feet that ends up being converted to wide receiver once he's selected on day two of the NFL draft because he can't hit the ocean from the edge of a boat."

--

"once we stop being "white" to ourselves, how do we move to undermine the white privilege that others will automatically attempt to give us, regardless?"

like i said in post #49- admit it first, get a large number of your group to realize it then we'll talk about moving beyond that. If anything- once you admit you're not "white" you should try to recollect as much of your decaying cultural history as possible - maybe even learn your language of heritage. then you can begin to overcome prejudiced and priveleged determinations by insisting upon the privilege of having a true culture.

but I suppose you'll ask- what do we do after that?

Dont worry about it Tinky- you dont have to stop "being white", you dont have realize you never were, you dont even have to distract yourself from the present reality or the truth that faces you with the choices you will face somewhere down the road. You will either accept the reality or propose some clever evasion- either way Im telling you that at some point you wont be able to hide the truth- or even hide from it, you wont be able to convince yourself or others.

I encourage you to be on your way towards enlightment and away from justifiying ignorance.

K

cut and paste. where did i deny truth? where did i attempt to justify ignorance? or are you just being pre-emptive?

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

V I V R A N C E
TinkyWinky - marley marl
Vivrant - Pete Rock
bfnh - Premier
guinness - Jay Dee
Mosaic - Hi Tek
Illwill - Hank Shocklee
SqueegieXM - Prince Paul
Kay Dee - Buckwild
Raina - Jazzy Joyce
phil - The Rza
nickelz45 - Diamond D
Donwill - Automator
honorable mention:
fire - fire

"Where the F*CK is my purse icon??????"

:::::::::::::
"And I know what the fuck an option quarterback is. He's the black QB under six feet that ends up being converted to wide receiver once he's selected on day two of the NFL draft because he can't hit the ocean from the edge of a boat."

--

try post #57