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Rage_Against_The_Machine

Wed Feb-14-01 06:51 AM

  
"Socialism"


          

I am new, and would like to know how many users on this board share my Socialist ideas. I have been a member of the Youth for Socialism for about two months and would like to have some good converations about the evils of capitalism and the ideas that capitalists hold. Peace.

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
Capitalism is not evil
Feb 14th 2001
1
lol
Feb 14th 2001
4
RE: lol
junglistmon
Feb 15th 2001
38
You're learning, grasshopper...
Feb 14th 2001
20
I love socialism....
Feb 14th 2001
2
RE: Socialism
blackbutterfly
Feb 14th 2001
3
I'm beginning to think
Feb 14th 2001
5
RE: I'm beginning to think
JMello
Feb 14th 2001
7
      thanks for the info
Feb 14th 2001
8
      RE: I'm beginning to think
Feb 14th 2001
9
      Chomsky and Zinn
JMello
Feb 14th 2001
10
      RE: I'm beginning to think
Feb 14th 2001
21
      RE: I'm beginning to think
Feb 15th 2001
28
      Ideally
JMello
Feb 15th 2001
31
      RE: I'm beginning to think
Feb 16th 2001
54
      You're Right
Marinera
Feb 15th 2001
37
      as I understand it
Feb 15th 2001
39
           Mostly
JMello
Feb 15th 2001
40
                define goverment?
Feb 15th 2001
44
                I'll define freedom...government comes later.
JMello
Feb 15th 2001
45
                RE: Mostly
Feb 16th 2001
53
      RE: I'm beginning to think
junglistmon
Feb 15th 2001
41
           Tinker...tinker
JMello
Feb 15th 2001
43
I hear ya...
JMello
Feb 14th 2001
6
sadness
jahblessyute
Feb 14th 2001
11
True dat...
JMello
Feb 14th 2001
12
Bad Economics
Feb 14th 2001
13
RE: Bad Economics
Feb 14th 2001
14
RE: Bad Economics
Feb 15th 2001
27
      RE: Bad Economics
Feb 15th 2001
30
not so sure
jahblessyute
Feb 14th 2001
15
      Our culture and Values?
Feb 15th 2001
25
RE: Socialism
Feb 14th 2001
16
RE: Socialism
Feb 14th 2001
18
      RE: Socialism
Feb 14th 2001
19
           RE: Socialism
Feb 14th 2001
22
           Archives...
Feb 14th 2001
24
           RE: Socialism
JMello
Feb 15th 2001
32
                same with anarchy
Feb 15th 2001
33
                     Slight Difference
JMello
Feb 15th 2001
34
                          Oh I see
Feb 15th 2001
35
                               *LOL*
Feb 15th 2001
49
RE: Socialism
gharr1s
Feb 14th 2001
17
Read...
Feb 14th 2001
23
one point.
Feb 15th 2001
26
Enough << Time Out>>
Feb 15th 2001
29
Yes'sir
JMello
Feb 15th 2001
42
Right...and
Feb 15th 2001
47
      RE: Right...and
Feb 16th 2001
52
RE: one point.
Feb 15th 2001
36
NASDAQ
Feb 15th 2001
46
RE: one point.
Feb 15th 2001
48
      RE: one point.
Feb 16th 2001
56
           Uhhh...
Feb 16th 2001
57
           I was referring to this
Feb 16th 2001
58
           Have some humanity...
JMello
Feb 16th 2001
59
RE: Read...
Feb 15th 2001
50
      I'm tired of talking about this, so
Feb 16th 2001
51
      RE: I'm tired of talking about this, so
Feb 21st 2001
60
      So what?
JMello
Feb 16th 2001
55
           RE: So what?
Feb 21st 2001
61

k_orr
Charter member
80197 posts
Wed Feb-14-01 06:52 AM

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1. "Capitalism is not evil"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

guns don't kill people, Multinational corporations that fund puppet governments do.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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standard deviant
Charter member
1206 posts
Wed Feb-14-01 08:09 AM

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4. "lol"
In response to Reply # 1


          

>guns don't kill people, Multinational corporations
>that fund puppet governments do.
>
>
>peace
>k. orr

this was just what I needed.. :):)

  

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junglistmon

Thu Feb-15-01 11:22 AM

  
38. "RE: lol"
In response to Reply # 4


          

lol twice.uhhh what is capitalism again then?


  

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alek
Charter member
3625 posts
Wed Feb-14-01 10:29 PM

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20. "You're learning, grasshopper..."
In response to Reply # 1


          

:-) Just playing.

Alek

________________________________
"Say some shit that suprise me...
My face don't change."

____________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What? What?

  

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bluetiger
Charter member
36723 posts
Wed Feb-14-01 07:44 AM

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2. "I love socialism...."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

keeps the masses locked into poor or bare boones living standards and still keeps a ruling elite! Wow, what fun.

Sorry, I have nothing constructive to add to this. You may disregard my sarcasm at anytime.

Thanks for reading. I love you.

"What are you but my reflection, who am I to judge or strike you down?" - MJK

In Rotation:
Organized Konfusion - The Extinction Agenda
Fiona Apple - When The Pawn
Guru - Jazzmatazz Streetsoul
Bad Brains - I Against I
Tool - Salival
Sade - Lovers Rock

don't be fkn evil.

  

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blackbutterfly

Wed Feb-14-01 07:54 AM

  
3. "RE: Socialism"
In response to Reply # 0


          


Another RATM fan, huh? Welcome to the board!









"When ignorance reigns...life is lost!"- Zack De La Rocha

  

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LexM
Charter member
28342 posts
Wed Feb-14-01 09:22 AM

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5. "I'm beginning to think"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

capitalism isn't the best way to go...

but at the same time, I have yet to see a viable alternative. It seems to me that any system run by humans is bound to be flawed. Not to say we need religious law or something, but a lot of things that sound good in theory fall apart in practice.

What do you think about that ideology?

L.

"There are no atheists in foxholes" (c) Any Given Sunday

I <3 Freestyle!!

"And for once, I want to live for the stars that came before me/And for the ones/That will never have the opportunity…to connect" ~~presyzion

"if and when blind, you will hear/drops of water reflecting off your skin/
the subtle bounces magnified into drum pounding/gateway splitting, roaring and consuming, yet soothing/echos of your losses" ~~jesmar

"and my own fears now/are not that i’ll die without money or land/but that i’ll die without this pen in my hand/and god bless this man, as i speak spoken words/cuz i may die broke/but i’ll be broke and heard." ~~RatpackSlim

"how can she sing/holy songs/'bout baby jesus/and mary/and not come/and save me from choking/on sweet youth mixed with mildew/that keeps clinging to my memories/cause this ain't the first time/grandma forget to save me and/my momma forgot to save me.../just always said "jesus wants you to save your flowers"/but my jesus forgot to save me too" ~~beyond_levels

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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JMello

Wed Feb-14-01 10:59 AM

  
7. "RE: I'm beginning to think"
In response to Reply # 5


          

>capitalism isn't the best way to
>go...
>
>but at the same time, I
>have yet to see a
>viable alternative. It seems to
>me that any system run
>by humans is bound to
>be flawed. Not to say
>we need religious law or
>something, but a lot of
>things that sound good in
>theory fall apart in practice.


Once again...socialism has NEVER been put into practice. The US history books want you to believe that it has, but in reality those were dictatorships with a dictator attempting to use Marxist ideals to convert the masses.

PLEASE TAKE NOTE:
***True socialism emerges from the poor and working classes***

Therefore this argument is inaccurate and smarts of propaganda.


JMello

"...it's about past 7 here, so we're actually in different timelines."

"I am mindful not only of preserving executive powers for myself, but my predecessors, as well. And that's why I made the decision."

"I'm about to name my brother the ambassador to Chad."

"They don't seem to be flocking in right now, but it is dove season in Texas. I'm a hunter and if I decide to shoot some dove, I'll shoot 'em and eat 'em."

--President-Select George W. Bush--

  

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LexM
Charter member
28342 posts
Wed Feb-14-01 11:08 AM

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8. "thanks for the info"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

I didn't know that it had NEVER been put into practice, but I wasn't implying that it had & didn't work. I was just speaking in general.

L.

"There are no atheists in foxholes" (c) Any Given Sunday

I <3 Freestyle!!

"And for once, I want to live for the stars that came before me/And for the ones/That will never have the opportunity…to connect" ~~presyzion

"if and when blind, you will hear/drops of water reflecting off your skin/
the subtle bounces magnified into drum pounding/gateway splitting, roaring and consuming, yet soothing/echos of your losses" ~~jesmar

"and my own fears now/are not that i’ll die without money or land/but that i’ll die without this pen in my hand/and god bless this man, as i speak spoken words/cuz i may die broke/but i’ll be broke and heard." ~~RatpackSlim

"how can she sing/holy songs/'bout baby jesus/and mary/and not come/and save me from choking/on sweet youth mixed with mildew/that keeps clinging to my memories/cause this ain't the first time/grandma forget to save me and/my momma forgot to save me.../just always said "jesus wants you to save your flowers"/but my jesus forgot to save me too" ~~beyond_levels

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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standard deviant
Charter member
1206 posts
Wed Feb-14-01 11:28 AM

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9. "RE: I'm beginning to think"
In response to Reply # 7


          

errr...uhhhh...what about latin american communism (yes, I realise communism and socialism are technically distinct). With the exception of US military or economic actions driving them into the ground, many of these nations flourished (something that REALLY pissed the US off...how DARE a communist nation not fall apart on its own).

Any other Noam Chomsky fans out there?

  

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JMello

Wed Feb-14-01 12:07 PM

  
10. "Chomsky and Zinn"
In response to Reply # 9


          

>Any other Noam Chomsky fans out
>there?

Yeah I saw him and Zinn speak about the sanctions in Iraq about four months ago.


JMello

"...it's about past 7 here, so we're actually in different timelines."

"I am mindful not only of preserving executive powers for myself, but my predecessors, as well. And that's why I made the decision."

"I'm about to name my brother the ambassador to Chad."

"They don't seem to be flocking in right now, but it is dove season in Texas. I'm a hunter and if I decide to shoot some dove, I'll shoot 'em and eat 'em."

--President-Select George W. Bush--

  

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alek
Charter member
3625 posts
Wed Feb-14-01 10:34 PM

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21. "RE: I'm beginning to think"
In response to Reply # 7


          

>Once again...socialism has NEVER been put
>into practice.

This is a vital point. Of course, some would say that a) capitalism has never been put into practice either, and b) no social theory of that kind has really ever been executed faithfully -- it may be impossible.


>The US
>history books want you to
>believe that it has, but
>in reality those were dictatorships
>with a dictator attempting to
>use Marxist ideals to convert
>the masses.

I completely agree with you. Of course, when making this argument, you have to keep in mind that many people view socialism as "a dictator attempting to use Marxist ideals to convert the masses." Not everyone sees clear to socialism in its pure form (and perhaps rightly so, since history and pragmatism might obscure that view). But I'm with you.

Alek

________________________________
"Say some shit that suprise me...
My face don't change."

____________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What? What?

  

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thebigfunk
Charter member
10305 posts
Thu Feb-15-01 06:18 AM

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28. "RE: I'm beginning to think"
In response to Reply # 21


          


>I completely agree with you.
>Of course, when making this
>argument, you have to keep
>in mind that many people
>view socialism as "a dictator
>attempting to use Marxist ideals
>to convert the masses."
>Not everyone sees clear to
>socialism in its pure form
>(and perhaps rightly so, since
>history and pragmatism might obscure
>that view). But I'm
>with you.

The other question is, could socialism really succeed at all without that "dictator attempting to use marxist..."? What I mean is, Socialism in its pure form is practically possible to achieve, due to its concept of collectivity. Just a thought

-thebigfunk

-thebigfunk

~ i could still snort you under the table ~

  

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JMello

Thu Feb-15-01 08:37 AM

  
31. "Ideally"
In response to Reply # 28


          

Ideally it evolves after capitalism has reached its total and most unbearable climax, from the masses themselves. It is not brought about by violent revolution (Latin America, except Chile), the aftermath of war (China), or by a dictator (Cuba, USSR, etc.). In Chile a socialist leader was elected by the masses, but was stiffled by the US and the North. Even a democratically elected socialist does not qualify as the ideal method of transformation. Marx envisioned the gradual erasure of government (i.e. the state) itself, and a drastic shift of power to the people themselves. This is what I'm refering to when I say it has never occured.

JMello

"...it's about past 7 here, so we're actually in different timelines."

"I am mindful not only of preserving executive powers for myself, but my predecessors, as well. And that's why I made the decision."

"I'm about to name my brother the ambassador to Chad."

"They don't seem to be flocking in right now, but it is dove season in Texas. I'm a hunter and if I decide to shoot some dove, I'll shoot 'em and eat 'em."

--President-Select George W. Bush--

  

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Gyrofrog
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1529 posts
Fri Feb-16-01 06:17 AM

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54. "RE: I'm beginning to think"
In response to Reply # 21


          

I've wondered how a free and unfettered capitalist economy would deal with the invisible hand of, say, nepotism.

--Joe C
"Gyrofrog"
Have sax, will woodshed
-----
http://www.gyrofrog.com

  

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Marinera

Thu Feb-15-01 11:08 AM

  
37. "You're Right"
In response to Reply # 7


          

True Socialism has never been put in practice. The problem is that because there are no checks and balances on the government in a socialist society, it's easy for it to turn into a dictatorship as with the USSR.

I guess the only way to avoid this is if the party running the gov't realize their obligation to the people there are leading and run the country for their citizens, not for themselves.

True socialism isn't that bad a concept, it just hasn't worked so far.

Just thought I'd throw that in there . . .

Giving you true calcio since 1986

Marinera . . . It's a damn tasty sauce y'all . . .

AIM: Marinera81
MAIL: jonah_b27@hotmail.com

Check out http://www.greatergood.com Help end world hunger, save the rainforest, help stop AIDS in Africa, help children survive in 3rd world countries, stop breast cancer, and give treatment to landmine victims in less than a minute a day! FOR FREE! NO FORMS TO FILL OUT AND NO STRINGS! REALLY!!!

  

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k_orr
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80197 posts
Thu Feb-15-01 11:35 AM

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39. "as I understand it"
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

socialism implies that everyone agrees and that there is no minority, or dissenting opinion.

correct me if I'm wrong.

k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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JMello

Thu Feb-15-01 11:48 AM

  
40. "Mostly"
In response to Reply # 39


          

>socialism implies that everyone agrees and
>that there is no minority,
>or dissenting opinion.
>
>correct me if I'm wrong.

The thing is, it is hard to imagine what a society with no formal state would look like. We can barely fathom what a classless society would be like, therefore it is impossible to define how such a society would operate. Ideally, all decisions about society would be made by the society and all decisions regarding the economy (what to produce, how long to work, etc.) would be made by the workers (who compose the society). This could work in a true democracy or a republic, or with no government at all.

JMello

"...it's about past 7 here, so we're actually in different timelines."

"I am mindful not only of preserving executive powers for myself, but my predecessors, as well. And that's why I made the decision."

"I'm about to name my brother the ambassador to Chad."

"They don't seem to be flocking in right now, but it is dove season in Texas. I'm a hunter and if I decide to shoot some dove, I'll shoot 'em and eat 'em."

--President-Select George W. Bush--

  

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k_orr
Charter member
80197 posts
Thu Feb-15-01 12:09 PM

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44. "define goverment?"
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

>Ideally, all decisions
>about society would be made
>by the society and all
>decisions regarding the economy (what
>to produce, how long to
>work, etc.) would be made
>by the workers (who compose
>the society). This could
>work in a true democracy
>or a republic, or with
>no government at all.

Cause it basically sounds like someone is deciding for me, unless I agree with them. I.E. either one person or a whole nation of persons makes decisions about my life. Is that not what government is?

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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JMello

Thu Feb-15-01 12:14 PM

  
45. "I'll define freedom...government comes later."
In response to Reply # 44


          

I'll define freedom...government comes later.

_____________________________________________

Marx and Work

By Joshuah Mello

According to the Bible, Genesis Chapter 3 Verse 19, work is “laid on” humankind as retribution for Adam’s violation of God’s law. It is with this view of labor that Adam Smith declares “labor to be a curse.” It is through this positioning of labor which leads it to become estranged from the laborer himself. It thus becomes an outside imposition on the wage laborer. A result of the opinion of labor as a curse is the inference that non-work (i.e. rest) is the positive human action. It is this necessary and logical inference that Karl Marx takes issue with.

Marx asserts that to view labor as a curse refutes its place in the daily life of humans and their desire to satisfy their needs. Labor and man’s ability to transform his environment to satisfy his needs is a defining trait and is present in all human activities, including rest. When we position labor as a threatening and non-self imposed curse we in essence alienate the man from his labor. When the goals or “aims” of the labor do not meet the needs of the laborer himself, the labor as well as the produce becomes the opposition of his “liberty and happiness.” Then, and only then, does rest alone assume on the attribute of freedom.

Marx claims that true “liberty and happiness” can be found in working toward non-alienated goals and overcoming the ensuing difficulties. When the laborer’s work becomes synchronized with his needs, this work leads to true “liberty and happiness.” Marx doubts Smith’s understanding of man’s daily necessity for labor, even in a state of rest, to satisfy more colloquial needs. It is when this labor and the “labor of production” become unified that mankind will truly know liberty and freedom.

In his early works, Marx discusses his understanding of labor and its relation to “alienation” and “freedom.” Labor, in reference to wage labor, is seen as the cause of alienation and the antagonist of freedom. Alienation being “the renunciation or relinquishment of a thing or a claim or a power” (Simond’s Glossary) and true freedom being man’s ability to shape nature and produce for his own needs.

Capitalism, according to Marx, has turned labor into a “commodity”­¾something to be bought and sold. Labor loses its status as a human activity and assumes the role of a material tradable item. Marx states “the worker becomes a cheaper commodity the more commodities he creates” (Tucker p. 71). This refers to advances in technology and manufacturing tools. The more products that are produced and the easier the production becomes the more money laborers need and the less labor power is valued. “Objectification of labor” is the result of this status as a commodity (Tucker p. 71). The work done by the laborer loses its quality as a “free expression of human powers” (Simond’s Glossary) and becomes simply a sellable item.

This disjunction between man and his labor constitutes Marx’s first observation of alienation. He maintains that a laborer is no more related to his product than any “alien object” (Tucker p. 72). This alienation is multiplied millions of times by millions by millions of products and millions of laborers.

Man is also alienated from his “means of life”¾nature. Wage labor requires objectification of the laborer in order to allocate work and physical subsistence. Labor power must be traded for both the basic human needs and the materials for production. His work must be sold as a commodity to obtain the essential materials for survival. This dual relationship between labor and its “means of life” further objectifies one’s labor.

Another form of alienation occurs not after production, but during. The necessity of work to acquire the “Means of life” and the “means of production” places this work in an opposing position to the laborer (Tucker p. 74). It is in this situation, during the act of production, that the work itself becomes alien to the worker. “It is therefore not the satisfaction of a need; it is merely a means to satisfy needs external to it” (Tucker p. 74). This affirms the holding by Smith that labor is viewed as a curse and is something to be avoided.

This alienation is further compounded by the fact that this coerced labor is not owned by the laborer, but by the owner of the means of production. This leaves only the basic “animal functions” (Tucker p. 74) to be claimed by the laborer himself; the human activity of production belongs to another. Since Marx maintains that this activity of production (transformation) is the essence of humankind, it could be said that the laborer is alienated from the essence of his own life.

Marx draws distinction between animals who draw their “species-being” from their life activity and humans who are defined by “free, conscious activity” (Tucker p. 76). Since labor’s activity is coerced and in opposition it is neither free nor conscious. As a result the laborer becomes what he does, and is defined by activity, similar to an animal. This further alienates the laborer; his own species-being becomes alien.

Thus, freedom is man’s ability to own his own labor and produce. When the work is utilized to satisfy a need and no longer used to satisfy needs external to it (Tucker p. 74) man becomes truly free. This freedom restores man’s species-being and de-objectifies his labor. Rest does not equal freedom; work on one’s own behalf is true freedom. Rest only attains the status of freedom when work is placed in the opposing position that it assumes wage labor.

_________________________________________________

JMello

"...it's about past 7 here, so we're actually in different timelines."

"I am mindful not only of preserving executive powers for myself, but my predecessors, as well. And that's why I made the decision."

"I'm about to name my brother the ambassador to Chad."

"They don't seem to be flocking in right now, but it is dove season in Texas. I'm a hunter and if I decide to shoot some dove, I'll shoot 'em and eat 'em."

--President-Select George W. Bush--

  

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Gyrofrog
Charter member
1529 posts
Fri Feb-16-01 06:05 AM

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53. "RE: Mostly"
In response to Reply # 40


          

>The thing is, it is hard to imagine what a society with no
>formal state would look like.

Somalia has had no governement for about 10 years now.

--Joe C
"Gyrofrog"
Have sax, will woodshed
-----
http://www.gyrofrog.com

  

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junglistmon

Thu Feb-15-01 11:49 AM

  
41. "RE: I'm beginning to think"
In response to Reply # 7


          

i myself agree that government should in in fact take the basic necessary utilites out of the the hand of greedy capitalists and provide to the people what we should have acces to reguardless of how much we make in a year. everyone should be able to acces clean water, electricity, and even more importantly....medical care. in our capitalistic government,whether you are going to live or die in many cases depends on whether or not you have insurance or if you can afford a specialist in a particular field.
Many people are forced to pay high prices private companies hike them up , profiting on a persons misfortune and dependency on a drug.(either by addiction or for health problems).
not to sound corny (even though this really does) but a shaman never provided a charge for his services.(really freaking corny.
before i start preaching the bible and shit. i just say ask youself whether you or your family should have to wory about living or dying because they dont make a 6 figure salary. thats all........okayplayers? whew


  

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JMello

Thu Feb-15-01 12:09 PM

  
43. "Tinker...tinker"
In response to Reply # 41


          

>i myself agree that government
>should in in fact take
>the basic necessary utilites out
>of the the hand of
>greedy capitalists and provide to
>the people what we should
>have acces to reguardless of
>how much we make in
>a year.

That's not socialism...that's just tinkering with capitalism.
I guess it all depends on whether you think the current system is fixable or needs to be completely discarded.

I personally think it is beyond repair.


JMello

"...it's about past 7 here, so we're actually in different timelines."

"I am mindful not only of preserving executive powers for myself, but my predecessors, as well. And that's why I made the decision."

"I'm about to name my brother the ambassador to Chad."

"They don't seem to be flocking in right now, but it is dove season in Texas. I'm a hunter and if I decide to shoot some dove, I'll shoot 'em and eat 'em."

--President-Select George W. Bush--

  

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JMello

Wed Feb-14-01 10:56 AM

  
6. "I hear ya..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

I am a socialist at heart, but a Green by practice.
I have taken quite a few Marxist classes and have delved into the cause more than once.

I too would enjoy some thoughtful dicussions on the impending downfall of capitalism, and its parent colonialism.

JMello

"...it's about past 7 here, so we're actually in different timelines."

"I am mindful not only of preserving executive powers for myself, but my predecessors, as well. And that's why I made the decision."

"I'm about to name my brother the ambassador to Chad."

"They don't seem to be flocking in right now, but it is dove season in Texas. I'm a hunter and if I decide to shoot some dove, I'll shoot 'em and eat 'em."

--President-Select George W. Bush--

  

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jahblessyute

Wed Feb-14-01 12:41 PM

  
11. "sadness"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I am really sad that so many people in the US have not been able to view socailism objectively- seeing only Soviet Communism as "what socialim does." On the other hand they can easily distinguish forms of "capitlism." They would never equate US democracy with Kenyan democracy for exmample.

This is particularly sad because it forces black people in America to think that socialism is not viable in this hemisphere or to see that they are varying degrees and forms that this ideology can be implemented. (Perhaps this stops them from realizing that the race problem is really a class problem.)

Peace.

ps see my post: "Fidel gives us free med school."

  

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JMello

Wed Feb-14-01 02:37 PM

  
12. "True dat..."
In response to Reply # 11


          

Glad to see someone who can see it objectively.
That all goes back to the anti-Soviet brainwashing we all encountered in school (remember the big red nemesis on all the maps on school walls?).

JMello

"...it's about past 7 here, so we're actually in different timelines."

"I am mindful not only of preserving executive powers for myself, but my predecessors, as well. And that's why I made the decision."

"I'm about to name my brother the ambassador to Chad."

"They don't seem to be flocking in right now, but it is dove season in Texas. I'm a hunter and if I decide to shoot some dove, I'll shoot 'em and eat 'em."

--President-Select George W. Bush--

  

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urbgriot
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13. "Bad Economics"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Simply cannot work... sorry
Major flaws in the logic of the theory. Black people should not be diehard about either or...not purely..both developed to further manifest white supremecy...

sorry

peace

https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

  

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standard deviant
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14. "RE: Bad Economics"
In response to Reply # 13


          

>Simply cannot work... sorry
>Major flaws in the logic of
>the theory

like...? I think everyone here would benefit from some exchange of alternative views rather than just patting each others backs.

both developed to further
>manifest white supremecy...

more...?


  

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urbgriot
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Thu Feb-15-01 05:51 AM

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27. "RE: Bad Economics"
In response to Reply # 14


          

It's not like that son...

time is of issue.. in posting....

peace

https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

  

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urbgriot
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Thu Feb-15-01 06:35 AM

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30. "RE: Bad Economics"
In response to Reply # 27


          

At work and time constraints..

peace..

https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

  

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jahblessyute

Wed Feb-14-01 06:57 PM

  
15. "not so sure"
In response to Reply # 13


          

While I agree that blatantly importing pure western-capitalism or marxist-communism would be to imply that only European philosophies (such as these developed by Marx and Smith) are viable...I do not think that this rules out using socialist ideas in all forms.

For example, India (the world's largest democracy) has been very succesful at using its "3rd way" ( a mix of economically socialist policies and western-capitalist social reforms). This synergy also aplies to the success of NIC in Asia such as Singapore. (in this case mixing authoritarianisma and democracy)

The point is that we as black people anywhere in the diaspora must forge our own unique system of government talior-made to our culture and values. This by no means rules out socialism, which has never really been given a FAIR (no embargo, no military undermining, etc.) chance to work in any country with a substantial population of African-descent. Even in places where it has faced considerable sabotage (ie. Cuba) it has enjoyed some developmental success.

Peace

  

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k_orr
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25. "Our culture and Values?"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

could you break those down?

It's a common refrain in many of these discussions to talk about our culture and values. Often it's in contrast with capitalist/western european values or Afrikan values, yet none have given a straight up list.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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Expertise
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Wed Feb-14-01 08:28 PM

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16. "RE: Socialism"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

You know, watching people talk about socialism is like trying to dig a dry hole in the Atlantic Ocean. It's useless....


_________________________
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standard deviant
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Wed Feb-14-01 09:02 PM

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18. "RE: Socialism"
In response to Reply # 16


          

Were you saying something?

I feel like I've said this a thousand times. If you've got something to say, COME WITH IT. Don't just hide behind childish taunts.

(there is nothing wrong with childish taunts, but include something worth reading with it as well).

  

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Expertise
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Wed Feb-14-01 10:22 PM

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19. "RE: Socialism"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

Guess what? I dont have to. Why? Because I've already said them thousands of times before. Repeating my initial argument is like beating a dead horse. Check the archives and see if you can find em. I'm sure Boodah saved a thread or two.

You aint the first one to argue for big government, and you wont be the last. Gimme something original or interesting and maybe I'll comment. But I've shot down the concept of socialism so many times in here that it looks like swiss cheese.

Adios.

_________________________
http://expertise.blogdrive.com
http://twitter.com/KMBReferee
http://www.ask.fm/KMBReferee

  

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alek
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Wed Feb-14-01 10:47 PM

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22. "RE: Socialism"
In response to Reply # 19


          

>Guess what? I dont have
>to. Why? Because
>I've already said them thousands
>of times before.

I'm inclined to agree with standard deviant on this. For two reasons:
1) Unless every opinion you hold about society, economics, and politics has remained perfectly constant since the last time you "shot down socialism" on these boards, you have something new to offer. If you don't want to engage yourself, don't, but it's useless and needlessly combattive to trivialize anyone's argument as just another post to be "shot down."

2) Even assuming that you have nothing new to offer on this, AND assuming that you're not interested in doing us posters the courtesy of repeating (or summarizing, OR referencing on the archives) your opinions, why do you respond at all? I hope you don't include your "digging a hole in the Atlantic" response as a "shooting down of socialism," because that was just empty dismissal.

>You aint the first one to
>argue for big government, and
>you wont be the last.

I think it's pretty funny that you conflate "big government" with socialist theory. Not that they don't share tendencies, or that one doesn't arise in certain cases from the other, but if you're supposed to be a seasoned expert in the art of debunking socialism you ought to bring some real specificity and vocabulary to the table.


> Gimme something original or
>interesting and maybe I'll comment.

Okay. Why don't you clarify the difference between "big government" and "socialism?" And respond to my proposal that our country currently operates under a "big government," but we're nowhere near socialism.

Alek


________________________________
"Say some shit that suprise me...
My face don't change."

____________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What? What?

  

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alek
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Wed Feb-14-01 11:05 PM

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24. "Archives..."
In response to Reply # 19


          

>Check the archives and see
>if you can find em.
> I'm sure Boodah saved
>a thread or two.

Where? Alternately trashing Castro (who deserves it) and Nader (who doesn't) doesn't amount to shooting down socialism. Show me where.

Alek

________________________________
"Say some shit that suprise me...
My face don't change."

____________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What? What?

  

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JMello

Thu Feb-15-01 08:43 AM

  
32. "RE: Socialism"
In response to Reply # 19


          

>You aint the first one to
>argue for big government, and
>you wont be the last.

True socialism is no government (i.e. the state) at all. The need for the state diappears when all take an equal piece of the pie and contribute their share of work.

Your not the first to confuse that and you won't be the last.

JMello

"...it's about past 7 here, so we're actually in different timelines."

"I am mindful not only of preserving executive powers for myself, but my predecessors, as well. And that's why I made the decision."

"I'm about to name my brother the ambassador to Chad."

"They don't seem to be flocking in right now, but it is dove season in Texas. I'm a hunter and if I decide to shoot some dove, I'll shoot 'em and eat 'em."

--President-Select George W. Bush--

  

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k_orr
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Thu Feb-15-01 09:08 AM

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33. "same with anarchy"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

so I guess there is no difference.

k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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JMello

Thu Feb-15-01 09:40 AM

  
34. "Slight Difference"
In response to Reply # 33


          

>so I guess there is no
>difference.

Most anarchists argue for no social structure at all, so there is a slight difference.

JMello

"...it's about past 7 here, so we're actually in different timelines."

"I am mindful not only of preserving executive powers for myself, but my predecessors, as well. And that's why I made the decision."

"I'm about to name my brother the ambassador to Chad."

"They don't seem to be flocking in right now, but it is dove season in Texas. I'm a hunter and if I decide to shoot some dove, I'll shoot 'em and eat 'em."

--President-Select George W. Bush--

  

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urbgriot
Charter member
11445 posts
Thu Feb-15-01 10:22 AM

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35. "Oh I see"
In response to Reply # 34


          

You talking about utopia....
or Heaven...


peace

https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

  

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Expertise
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49. "*LOL*"
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

You guys are funny...

_________________________
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gharr1s

Wed Feb-14-01 08:43 PM

  
17. "RE: Socialism"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Inside The United States Military.

  

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pocahontas
Charter member
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Wed Feb-14-01 11:04 PM

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23. "Read..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

BLACK MARXISM, by Cedric Robinson. Just to give you some insight, he wanted to call the books, "Black Radical Tradition" but his publisher wouldn't let him...It's thick, academic reading, but I think it's worth a whirl for both capitalists and socialists. Personally

- I think that every human being deserves a living wage so that he or she can feed him or herself, capitalism does not allow for that.

- Competition being the disposition of man is a "theory" not a truth. Man is selfish according to Hobbes and Smith. But many philosophies of Asia, Africa, and Latin America contend that man is actually dependent on the community, not simply for selfish gains, but for his foresight that an overall healthy community is better for everyone.

- Socialism v. Communism. Socialism because I advocate equality of opportunity over equality of outcome. Capitalism, by its nature can never allow for equal opportunity, it never has.

- The fact that Bill Gates has enough money to buy and sell most of the Western hemisphere makes me want to vomit. Especially when I know that his gross wealth necessitates someone else's gross poverty. Capitalism demands that it does.

- Every child deserves a decent education. A capitalist model (i.e. vouchers) denies that and states that the best schools should only be for the best students, and the children who are left behind are SOL. I also believe that college and vocational training shoulc be a part of the free public school system, because the same social Darwinian model that I denounce is applied to college. There is very little individual can do with only a diploma. Basically, our current system assures that there will always be a service class, which is disproportionately occupied by people of color. Capitalism demands this injustice.

- Teachers should be valued as much a doctors, and more valued than multimillion-dollar actors, actresses, and professional sports figures. Everyone should be valued for contributing to the society period, whether a janitor or a CEO. If we percieved contributions to the society in a less stratified, less hierarchical manner, this would make perfect sense.

- Currently, CEOs make 40 times as much as their average employee. In the 80s, it was only 5 times as much. The disparity between rich and poor is increasing, and as such, the urgency for some type of equalization is apparent, because history have shown us what happens when that disparity becomes too great.

- Capitalism has failed Africans around the world. In fact, the primitive accumulation acquired by the Western world (as capitalism requires according to Adam Smith) was the result of using African as capital themselves. Capitalism continues to marginalize individuals, and what's worse is that it wears the guise of providing opportunities for all. Capitalism is a lie to anyone who isn't white, male, and/or rich, because any one of these qualities gives one an unearned advantage..."unearned" is something that capitalism forgets to take into consideration.

I know there are probably many flaws in my analysis, I'm still trying to work all this out. I just don't know how a system that purposely causes division for the sake of "progress" can ever be beneficial to those who are not equipped, who can never be fully equipped to compete with unearned privilege.



  

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k_orr
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Thu Feb-15-01 04:58 AM

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26. "one point."
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

>- The fact that Bill Gates
>has enough money to buy
>and sell most of the
>Western hemisphere makes me want
>to vomit. Especially when
>I know that his gross
>wealth necessitates someone else's gross
>poverty. Capitalism demands that
>it does.

The vast majority of Gate's wealth is in stocks and bonds, or other investment type stuff. How does his wealth necessarily cause someone else's poverty.


>- Every child deserves a decent
>education. A capitalist model
>(i.e. vouchers) denies that and
>states that the best schools
>should only be for the
>best students, and the children
>who are left behind are
>SOL.

That's how most socialist/democratic countries in Europe do it. The slow learners don't get into the best schools.

>- Teachers should be valued as
>much a doctors,

Someone who teaches math and history, vs someone who can save my life?
>- Capitalism has failed Africans around
>the world.

See thread on black capitalists.

I think African American's especially, need to embrace capitalism and do for self. Both Martin and Malcolm agreed with that.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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urbgriot
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Thu Feb-15-01 06:27 AM

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29. "Enough << Time Out>>"
In response to Reply # 26


          

I think a lot of cats on here need to READ more than spitting this nonsence....

>Once again...socialism has NEVER been put into practice. The US >history books want you to believe that it has, but in reality >those were dictatorships with a dictator attempting to use >Marxist ideals to convert the masses.

The principles of Socialism existed long befor Marx stole the idea and laid claim to it. It was practiced, minus the restrictions of freedom throught the world, especially Afrika the founder of civilization.

>This is particularly sad because it forces black people in >America to think that socialism is not viable in this >hemisphere or to see that they are varying degrees and forms >that this ideology can be implemented. (Perhaps this stops them >from realizing that the race problem is really a class problem.)

Socialism is practiced here in the US. Social Sercurity? Medicare? Welfare?(to our detrement)

>Currently, CEOs make 40 times as much as their average >employee. In the 80s, it was only 5 times as much. The >disparity between rich and poor is increasing, and as such, the >urgency for some type of equalization is apparent, because >history have shown us what happens when that disparity becomes >too great.

I agree to a point..
You will find that the stock boom plays a big part in that. plus fortune 500 companies have a large range of employess and it is mostly with them that you find the CEO making enormous ammounts of money.

>I think that every human being deserves a living wage so that >he or she can feed him or herself, capitalism does not allow >for that.

Actually pure capitalism would but only if you are willing to adjust with the market... again read more...

>Teachers should be valued as much a doctors, and more valued >than multimillion-dollar actors, actresses, and professional >sports figures. Everyone should be valued for contributing to >the society period, whether a janitor or a CEO. If we percieved >contributions to the society in a less stratified, less >hierarchical manner, this would make perfect sense.

Is the more of a cultural issue or on with the economic system..???

>Capitalism has failed Africans around the world. In fact, the >primitive accumulation acquired by the Western world (as >capitalism requires according to Adam Smith) was the result of >using African as capital themselves. Capitalism continues to >marginalize individuals, and what's worse is that it wears the >guise of providing opportunities for all. Capitalism is a lie >to anyone who isn't white, male, and/or rich, because any one >of these qualities gives one an unearned advantage..."unearned" >is something that capitalism forgets to take into consideration.

Not accurate... actually communism has failed just as miserably..
To much bs in this one to pin point just one..

the tone may be hostile, but it has to be. this not an endorsement of capitalism but again it must be heard..

READ ABOUT IT FIRST....
please

peace..





https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

  

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JMello

Thu Feb-15-01 11:55 AM

  
42. "Yes'sir"
In response to Reply # 29


          

>>Once again...socialism has NEVER been put into practice. The >>US >history books want you to believe that it has, but in >>reality those were dictatorships with a dictator attempting >>to use Marxist ideals to convert the masses.
>
>The principles of Socialism existed long
>before Marx stole the idea
>and laid claim to it.
>It was practiced, minus the
>restrictions of freedom throught the
>world, especially Afrika the founder
>of civilization.

Gravity existed before Newton too, it just didn't have a name.
Besides, Marx talks about past cultures and their transition from: primative communism to slavery to feudalism to capitalism to socialism and eventually communism. Even Africa has followed this path, albeit most of it was forced by Europeans.

*By the way, how much Marx and Engels have you read? You must be well versed to claim that their work was stolen.*


JMello

"...it's about past 7 here, so we're actually in different timelines."

"I am mindful not only of preserving executive powers for myself, but my predecessors, as well. And that's why I made the decision."

"I'm about to name my brother the ambassador to Chad."

"They don't seem to be flocking in right now, but it is dove season in Texas. I'm a hunter and if I decide to shoot some dove, I'll shoot 'em and eat 'em."

--President-Select George W. Bush--

  

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pocahontas
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Thu Feb-15-01 04:07 PM

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47. "Right...and"
In response to Reply # 29


          

I guess this these worn copies of Sir William Petty's writings and Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations that I've read over ten times and highlighted profusely, plus wrote many a term paper on, means that I've never read capitalist theory..okay, if you say so.

>I think a lot of cats
>on here need to READ
>more than spitting this nonsence....

Really, nonsense, I would neve disrespect you opinion like that, but I'm one of these crazy liberals that think what anyone has to say is important...

>Socialism is practiced here in the
>US. Social Sercurity? Medicare? Welfare?

In order for these programs to work in true socialist form, the ideology needs to be in tact, which in America, it is not. We are constantly feeding people the capitalist rhtoeric that stigmatize these programs, and more importantly, the people who need them. The concept behind making sure elderly people don't starve (which our paltry SS programs don't, especially for our poor elderly), or ensuring that the sick can have access to being well (which Medicare doesn't always do in the most effective and efficient manner), or making sure the people who are unemployed have enough to feed themselves (which welfare doesn't do a very good job of) is that everyone deserves a minimum quality of life. So you are saying that that is a bad thing? Are thinking that poor people deserve to starve and the rich has earned every penny they have? Okay...

>>Currently, CEOs make 40 times as much as their average >employee. In the 80s, it was only 5 times as much. The >disparity between rich and poor is increasing, and as such, the >urgency for some type of equalization is apparent, because >history have shown us what happens when that disparity becomes >too great.
>
>I agree to a point..
>You will find that the stock
>boom plays a big part
>in that. plus fortune 500
>companies have a large range
>of employess and it is
>mostly with them that you
>find the CEO making enormous
>ammounts of money.

Okay, does this make an impact on the point that I made about the gap between the rich and the poor is widening and that is detrimental, as history has shown us time and time again, to political and economic stability?


>>I think that every human being deserves a living wage so that >he or she can feed him or herself, capitalism does not allow >for that.
>
>Actually pure capitalism would but only
>if you are willing to
>adjust with the market... again

Capitalism would not because doing so would contradict the "laissez-faire"/invisible hand that is essential to the notion of capitalism.

>>Teachers should be valued as much a doctors, and more valued >than multimillion-dollar actors, actresses, and professional >sports figures. Everyone should be valued for contributing to >the society period, whether a janitor or a CEO. If we percieved >contributions to the society in a less stratified, less >hierarchical manner, this would make perfect sense.
>
>Is the more of a cultural
>issue or on with the
>economic system..???

Everything is economic. Maybe you should review some old supply and demand charts, huh?


>>Capitalism has failed Africans around the world. In fact, the >primitive accumulation acquired by the Western world (as >capitalism requires according to Adam Smith) was the result of >using African as capital themselves. Capitalism continues to >marginalize individuals, and what's worse is that it wears the >guise of providing opportunities for all. Capitalism is a lie >to anyone who isn't white, male, and/or rich, because any one >of these qualities gives one an unearned advantage..."unearned" >is something that capitalism forgets to take into consideration.
>
>Not accurate... actually communism has failed
>just as miserably.

There's a difference between socialism and communism, you know? Perhaps our attempts at organizing and restructuring our governments (here, Caribbean, Latin America, and Africa) has to do with the stranglehold that White capitalism has on the entire decolonizing world.

>To much bs in this one
>to pin point just one.

Actually, I only said four things, maybe your synthesis skills are in need of some help...but before I get into the issues you failed to address...

First of all, how dare you call my opinion "bs?" I have NEVER disrepected anyone on this board, and I don't think I'm asking too much to expect the same treatment in return. You don't know me, and I don't know you. Until you came at me sideways, this was a decent acadmeic conversation (that's when two or more people talk about an issue in a coherent, constructive manner).

Anyway, back to the questions you punked out on...is what I said about the Western world primitaive accumulation wrong? You didn't address that point. Second, do you think that capitalism give everyone an equal chance to succeed the way it claims to? You didn't address that either. Third, what's your argument against the point that Adam Smith's model of capitalism does not take into consideration "unearned privilege"?

Instead of calling my ideas BS, maybe you should not be a punk and actually address them.

>the tone may be hostile, but
>it has to be.

Why? Unless you revel in being an asshole and cannot engage in civil dialogue and intellectual debate without becoming one.

>this
>not an endorsement of capitalism
>but again it must be
>heard..

Do you endorse anything, because you really didn't offer much analysis, just criticism...
>
>READ ABOUT IT FIRST....
>please

Maybe I should send you excerpts from the several books and essays I've already read over the last 5 year in my study of the African Diaspora and historical economy, I already have highlights and notes in the margins to make it easier for you...

>peace..

Really? With your attitude? Whatever...





  

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urbgriot
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Fri Feb-16-01 05:19 AM

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52. "RE: Right...and"
In response to Reply # 47


          

>I guess this these worn copies of Sir William Petty's writings >and Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations that I've read over ten >times and highlighted profusely, plus wrote many a term paper >on, means that I've never read capitalist theory..okay, if you >say so.

Writing historical essays and reading the theory is different than appling the principles and studing the principles as a major for five plus years.

>In order for these programs to work in true socialist form, the >ideology needs to be in tact, which in America, it is not. We >are constantly feeding people the capitalist rhtoeric that >stigmatize these programs, and more importantly, the people who >need them. The concept behind making sure elderly people don't >starve (which our paltry SS programs don't, especially for our >poor elderly), or ensuring that the sick can have access to >being well (which Medicare doesn't always do in the most >effective and efficient manner), or making sure the people who >are unemployed have enough to feed themselves (which welfare >doesn't do a very good job of) is that everyone deserves a >minimum quality of life. So you are saying that that is a bad >thing? Are thinking that poor people deserve to starve and the >rich has earned every penny they have? Okay...

Welfare as a whole needs to be demolished. (A system designed to trap Afrikans in a circle of poverty. Then to further exploit them with crime, drugs, and alcohol. Forget the fact that it's rips them of their dignity) These programs in this country and really in any country where socialism is being practiced creates an enviroment of dependency on a system (government) to provide that person with their basic needs. (very dangerous) Slavery comes to mind....

>>Currently, CEOs make 40 times as much as their average >employee. In the 80s, it was only 5 times as much. The >disparity between rich and poor is increasing, and as such, the >urgency for some type of equalization is apparent, because >history have shown us what happens when that disparity becomes >too great.
>
>I agree to a point..
>You will find that the stock
>boom plays a big part
>in that. plus fortune 500
>companies have a large range
>of employess and it is
>mostly with them that you
>find the CEO making enormous
>ammounts of money.

Okay, does this make an impact on the point that I made about the gap between the rich and the poor is widening and that is detrimental, as history has shown us time and time again, to political and economic stability?

and I agree with you....but in last decade the gap can be equated with the stock market boom. which was triggered by the technology rush that recently happened. I think an adjustment will be coming soon...

>>I think that every human being deserves a living wage so that >he or she can feed him or herself, capitalism does not allow >for that.
>
>Actually pure capitalism would but only
>if you are willing to
>adjust with the market... again

Capitalism would not because doing so would contradict the "laissez-faire"/invisible hand that is essential to the notion of capitalism.

Again not quite. "laissez-faire" would allow for the adjustment. when the market hits a downturn the people that support it would fall in line accordingly into positions inwhich the market demands.

>>Teachers should be valued as much a doctors, and more valued >than multimillion-dollar actors, actresses, and professional >sports figures. Everyone should be valued for contributing to >the society period, whether a janitor or a CEO. If we percieved >contributions to the society in a less stratified, less >hierarchical manner, this would make perfect sense.
>
>Is the more of a cultural
>issue or on with the
>economic system..???
>Everything is economic. Maybe you should review some old supply >and demand charts, huh?

Wrong again.. Just like socialism, capitalism is nothing new. it's beggining again can be traced, funny back to Afrika, where people bardered for centuries not neccessarily to gain rank and priviledge but to provide for the communities and share goods..

>There's a difference between socialism and communism, you know?>Perhaps our attempts at organizing and restructuring our >governments (here, Caribbean, Latin America, and Africa) has to >do with the stranglehold that White capitalism has on the >entire decolonizing world.

And maybe not???


>Anyway, back to the questions you punked out on...is what I >said about the Western world primitaive accumulation wrong? You >didn't address that point. Second, do you think that capitalism >give everyone an equal chance to succeed the way it claims to? >You didn't address that either. Third, what's your argument >against the point that Adam Smith's model of capitalism does >not take into consideration "unearned privilege"?

>Instead of calling my ideas BS, maybe you should not be a punk >and actually address them.

I agree that the you on the first point.
The second point, capitalism (free market economies) can be manipulated. Some communities have mastered it. (Jewish, many Asian). And that is without the inheritance factor.
Inheritance was not considered. It is not a level playing field and individuals will have to strive to manipulate the system, but it can be accomplished especially if the individuals work as a community.
>this
>not an endorsement of capitalism
>but again it must be
>heard..

>Do you endorse anything, because you really didn't offer much >analysis, just criticism...

And I don't endorse any of the "isms" of European thinking......

>READ ABOUT IT FIRST....
>please

Again I state...

>Maybe I should send you excerpts from the several books and >essays I've already read over the last 5 year in my study of >the African Diaspora and historical economy, I already have >highlights and notes in the margins to make it easier for you...

Maybe you should live it....

peace..






https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

  

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eyezed
Member since Aug 13th 2002
42 posts
Thu Feb-15-01 10:43 AM

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36. "RE: one point."
In response to Reply # 26


          

>>- The fact that Bill Gates
>>has enough money to buy
>>and sell most of the
>>Western hemisphere makes me want
>>to vomit. Especially when
>>I know that his gross
>>wealth necessitates someone else's gross
>>poverty. Capitalism demands that
>>it does.
>
>The vast majority of Gate's wealth
>is in stocks and bonds,
>or other investment type stuff.
> How does his wealth
>necessarily cause someone else's poverty.
>
>

Given: This statement isn't specific to Bill Gates.
Given: There is a finite amount of money in the economy.
Assuming: 80% of this finite set is controlled by 5% of the people.

This leaves 20% of the finite set for 95% of the people. If the 20% isn't distributed evenly.....

>
>>- Every child deserves a decent
>>education. A capitalist model
>>(i.e. vouchers) denies that and
>>states that the best schools
>>should only be for the
>>best students, and the children
>>who are left behind are
>>SOL.
>
>That's how most socialist/democratic countries in
>Europe do it. The
>slow learners don't get into
>the best schools.

Isn't that kinda backwards. If I have trouble learning, shouldn't that be a reason for me to go to a school with better teachers? The European countries do so because they are competing with Capitalist countries who do so. It's like they're socialists internally and Capitalists externally. That's the main problem with socialism/communism. They'll never work as long as there is 1 prosperous Capitalist gov't. Capitalism just makes progress faster. Faster isn't always better.

>
>>- Teachers should be valued as
>>much a doctors,
>
>Someone who teaches math and history,
>vs someone who can save
>my life?

How do the doctors become doctors without the teachers?

>>- Capitalism has failed Africans around
>>the world.
>
>See thread on black capitalists.
>
>I think African American's especially, need
>to embrace capitalism and do
>for self. Both Martin
>and Malcolm agreed with that.
>
>

Doing for self and embracing capitalism are birds of 2 different feathers!! Unless, we plan on remaining within the present social construct. Independence and assimilation don't necessarily go hand in hand.

>peace
>k. orr

Peace

Eyezed

I think it's cool that nubians have intellectual discourse somewhere in the cyberworld. Blackplanet was not making it for me. I might have to turn in my Stephen Hawkings Board membership!

  

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k_orr
Charter member
80197 posts
Thu Feb-15-01 12:22 PM

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46. "NASDAQ"
In response to Reply # 36


  

          


>Given: There is a finite amount
>of money in the economy.

Money is not a resource, it's a medium for exchange. Furthermore the economy is not a zero sum game. Hence I bring up stocks and investments. When "wealth" is created, it's really just hype/lust after a stock. In Bill Gate's case, most of his wealth doesn't come from his take on the # of programs sold, but rather, a lot of people want to buy his stock. Day to day the stock price can change, yet the people, labor, and capital that makes up microsoft stays the same. When the demand is up, the price increases, and wealth is created from nothing. But easy come, easy go.

Bonds/Loans create money. I give you a loan, you have to pay me back interest. In my case the fed government gave me 18,000 for school, and I give them 30,000 back. They just created 12,000 by betting on my future.

Indeed, money is really just a score card.

>Isn't that kinda backwards. If I
>have trouble learning, shouldn't that
>be a reason for me
>to go to a school
>with better teachers?

It's like trying to tune a Geo Metro for racing instead of the Corvette. Does it make sense to spend your best resources on people that can only be average at best?

It's cold no doubt, but that's pretty much how most societies work.

The European
>countries do so because they
>are competing with Capitalist countries
>who do so.

It's like
>they're socialists internally and Capitalists
>externally.

It's also why most of those countries have unemployment rates 2-3 times that of the USA. It's why some european companies use "cheap" american labor to make their cars.

>>
>>>- Teachers should be valued as
>>>much a doctors,
>>
>>Someone who teaches math and history,
>>vs someone who can save
>>my life?
>
>How do the doctors become doctors
>without the teachers?

But Is a 1st grade teacher doing as much to help humanity as a 1st year intern?

How can you value life and health over facts and figures?

>Doing for self and embracing capitalism
>are birds of 2 different
>feathers!! Unless, we plan on
>remaining within the present social
>construct. Independence and assimilation don't
>necessarily go hand in hand.

Assimilation ain't what I'm talking about.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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pocahontas
Charter member
441 posts
Thu Feb-15-01 04:25 PM

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48. "RE: one point."
In response to Reply # 26


          

>>- The fact that Bill Gates
>>has enough money to buy
>>and sell most of the
>>Western hemisphere makes me want
>>to vomit. Especially when
>>I know that his gross
>>wealth necessitates someone else's gross
>>poverty. Capitalism demands that
>>it does.
>
>The vast majority of Gate's wealth
>is in stocks and bonds,
>or other investment type stuff.
> How does his wealth
>necessarily cause someone else's poverty.


If you don't understand the fundamental economic principle that resources are scarce, and as such, any such grossly disproportionate distribution of wealth has the consequence of a gross absence of wealth somewhere else on the graph, then I don't know what else I can say...


>>- Every child deserves a decent
>>education. A capitalist model
>>(i.e. vouchers) denies that and
>>states that the best schools
>>should only be for the
>>best students, and the children
>>who are left behind are
>>SOL.
>
>That's how most socialist/democratic countries in
>Europe do it. The
>slow learners don't get into
>the best schools.

Yeah, Europe also did that whole using humans as capital thing...got analysis?

Europeans also have all types of classist, racist shit popping off in their societies, so I don't expect their programs and philosophies to be totally on point. However, European programs also ensure that all students get some type of education in terms of learning a skill that can be utilized. Some kids are meant to be academics, others want to be carpenters. The Euro school system makes sure that every child has some type of skill before he or she is tossed into the workforce and forced to occupy service industry jobs only, unlike here, and the statification would only get worse with vouchers.

>Someone who teaches math and history,
>vs someone who can save
>my life?

Where do doctors and lawyers come from? Who teaches and inspires them? Believe me, a teacher can save a life and are damn near at the base of our enlightened society, check all those Greek philosophers (Aristotle, etc.), they agree. (Of course we know that the Greeks stole all their shit from us, right?)

>>- Capitalism has failed Africans around
>>the world.
>
>See thread on black capitalists.

Been there, done that, don't agree.

>I think African American's especially, need
>to embrace capitalism and do
>for self. Both Martin
>and Malcolm agreed with that.

But how do we embrace a system we didn't invent, that was developed to benefit those who are distinctly NOT us, whose structures were built on our backs. We can't afford to move around within the system, the whole game's got to be reset if we REALLY want freedom.
>
>
>peace
>k. orr

peace
poca



  

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k_orr
Charter member
80197 posts
Fri Feb-16-01 11:36 AM

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56. "RE: one point."
In response to Reply # 48


  

          


>If you don't understand the fundamental
>economic principle that resources are
>scarce,

Money is not a resource. Land, capital, labor, those are resources.

Money is not scarce. You can print as much money as you want to. Read stuff on the federal reserve system. Understand basic economics first.

and as such, any
>such grossly disproportionate distribution of
>wealth has the consequence of
>a gross absence of wealth
>somewhere else on the graph,
>then I don't know what
>else I can say...

It's not a zero sum game, and there are more than enough resources on this earth to feed and clothe everyone.

Read about Julian Simon. an economics professor. Mako on the daveyd board says.
_________________________

There is no shortage of food in the world. Food production has outgrown the birth rate by more than 20% over the last few years. In fact, some of the *poorest* and *hungriest* nations in the world have way more than enough food. India, for instance, grows more food than any other nation in Asia (aside from China). Unfortunately however, India exports over 200 tons worth of food OUTSIDE their own nation to other countries. Why do this when so many starve? Not even for the influx of cash, its to preserve a market theory that says a certain number of exports are necessary to keep the world economy going. Foreign nations encourage this cycle. Some of the world's hungriest nations: India, China, Pakistan, etc...export TONS of food that could be used to feed their own people. In the US alone the exports of food could feed the 40 million with no assets many times over. Its been estimated that with the amount of food in the world every man, woman and child could eat at least 6 pounds of food a day. If meat were cut from the diet (as in Germany), these numbers would balloon since animal grazing costs more food than it creates. Does this make sense? And yet still today people talk of *wasting food* or *limited resources* when they really know little about food production.
___________________________________________________

Here's a link on population growth and natural resources.
http://www.acton.org/publicat/randl/95mar_apr/simon.html

Please read and respond with facts that state your case.

The scientific and market evidence have shown that even with increasing #'s of people, we aren't running out of resources.

So even if Bill gate's paper wealth was actual material wealth, it wouldn't put a dent into how resources are distributed across the globe.

>Yeah, Europe also did that whole
>using humans as capital thing...got
>analysis?

I'm not saying that the Euro's have got it all right. In fact, when you really look at their governments and policies and how they run their businesses there are lots of problems.

>However, European programs
>also ensure that all students
>get some type of education
>in terms of learning a
>skill that can be utilized.

We call it public education. There are more than enough public and private sources to send the vast majority of people into a trade school or college.

> Some kids are meant
>to be academics, others want
>to be carpenters. The
>Euro school system makes sure
>that every child has some
>type of skill before he
>or she is tossed into
>the workforce and forced to
>occupy service industry jobs only,

The result is still that a lot of young graduates of trade school or college still face terrible job markets. Check their unemployment stats. Compare that to America.

>unlike here, and the statification
>would only get worse with
>vouchers.

Vouchers wouldn't have a major effect. Read about the Milwaukee 10 year history with vouchers.

>>Someone who teaches math and history,
>>vs someone who can save
>>my life?
>
>Where do doctors and lawyers come
>from?

So you teaching a class of first graders, a job you trained at the most 4 years for, with 1 year of student teaching, equates to someone who spends 7-10 years of training?

Teachers are underpaid, but they are in no way as valuable to our society as doctors. That's not to say that teachers are without value. Probably one of the most important jobs in our society, but doctors, farmers, and a few others are as important, if not more important.

>>>- Capitalism has failed Africans around
>>>the world.
>>
>>See thread on black capitalists.
>
>Been there, done that, don't agree.

So you're saying that black folks owning their own businesses, employing their own people, and conducting trade with one another is a bad idea? I'm sorry but I have to disagree.

>But how do we embrace a
>system we didn't invent,

Timbuktu. Songhai... there are countless examples of black capitalism all over the globe and throughout history.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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Solarus
Charter member
3604 posts
Fri Feb-16-01 12:00 PM

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57. "Uhhh..."
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

Hotep

You never did get back to me on that. How was that capitalism?

PEace
Solarus



"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus


____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

  

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k_orr
Charter member
80197 posts
Fri Feb-16-01 12:09 PM

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58. "I was referring to this"
In response to Reply # 57


  

          


_______________________________________
A Free Market And Free Trade Tradition in pre-colonial African Societiey
by George Ayittey,Washington, DC



Market Types And Organization

Part of the goods produced by Africans were consumed, the rest traded or sold in markets. Much has been written about trade and markets in indigenous Africa, but dismissingly. For a variety of reasons, it has been argued that trade and markets could not have developed in Africa. For one thing, household subsistence agriculture was assumed to be the norm. Surplus agricultural produce therefore was unavailable to trade. For another, climatic conditions posed grave problems of storage, and technical difficulties seriously hampered bulk transportation of goods. And "those who do not believe that traditional African societies had market systems suggest that evidence of such systems is a reflection of colonial and Western contact, especially in the last hundred years" (Schneider, 1986; p.186). Yet, trade and markets there were.

The development of markets was inevitable even if self-sufficiency was assumed to be strictly operative. It was physically impossible for a homestead to produce all its needs on the farm. By necessity, a surplus over its needs was required to exchange for what it could not produce. In earlier times, such exchanges were done by canvassing from hut to hut, a time-consuming process. A market was simply a place where these exchanges could be made more easily. Where exchanges occurred regularly, a marketplace would developed. The institution of a marketplace, then, was a natural evolution. "Though people like the Hausa have adopted new types of currency, there were indigenous currencies consisting of cowrie shells, livestock, copper bars, and iron goods which made indigenous markets possible" (Schneider, 1986; p.186).

Markets were ubiquitous in West Africa. There were a few regions where
aboriginal markets were absent - in parts of Liberia, southwestern Ivory Coast, and in certain portions of the plateau regions of Nigeria. Nevertheless, even here people engaged in trade, and benefited from the markets of contiguous areas. The markets served as local exchange points or nodes, and trade was the vascular system unifying all of West Africa, moving products to and from local markets, larger market centers, and still larger centers (Skinner, 1964).

There were two types of markets and trade: the small village market and the
large markets which served as long-distance, inter-regional trade centers. Most markets tended to be situated on the border between different geographical zones - forest and savanna, coastal belt and interior - or between different ethnic groups - Gikuyu (cultivators) and Masai (pastoralists), and on inter-regional trade routes, providing travelling merchants with food and shelter, as well as facilities for exchange (Wickins, 1981).

Rural markets were often sited at bush clearings or at the intersection of
caravan routes. As Hill (1987) asserted: "Rural periodic markets are such
ancient institutions in many parts of West Africa and the literature on African markets is vast" (p.54). Skinner (1964) concurred:

"The first Europeans to arrive at the lower Niger River in the eastern coast of West Africa reported that they saw Igbo traders from inland bringing yams, cows, goats and sheep for trading with such coastal peoples as the Ijaw in exchange for salt...Markets of the societies in the middle zone between the eastern coast of West Africa and the Hausa states in the north were important centers of exchange in the period prior to European incursion."

Though indigenous markets in southern Africa were not as well developed as in west Africa, they were not entirely absent either (Bohannan, 1964; p.206). It is only in South Africa that historical accounts seem to indicate the introduction of organized markets by the colonialists. "Unorganized" markets however existed before the arrival of the colonists in South Africa. The difference between the two resided in the use of paper currency introduced by the Europeans. This distinction is important since there were numerous places where the people of South Africa exchanged or bartered goods. The absence of paper currency did not mean "unorganized" markets did not exist in much the same as the absence of paper currency did not mean the institution of money was unknown to Africans.

Wickins (1981) also supported this view: "The African peoples of the southern part of the continent traded among themselves both before and after the advent of European settlement, sometimes apparently over considerable distances. Some were more active traders than others, the Tsonga, for example, a coastal people living between Kosi Bay and the Save (Sabi) River. There were accustomed to travelling hundreds of
kilometers by canoe on the Limpopo."

The great bulk of African internal trade was in foodstuffs and livestock
(Newbury, 1971). Traded commodities included plantain, maize, kola nuts, salt, palm oil, dried or smoked fish, goats and cattle. In East Africa, however, a few commodities dominated local trade.

The staples of internal trade were salt, copper and gold. Salt was the basis of trade at Ingombe Ilede, an iron-using agricultural settlement near the
confluence of the Zambezi and Kafue Rivers, occupied during the last two or three centuries of the 1st millenium A.D. and reoccupied, according to
archaelogical evidence, in the 14th and 15th centuries. It commanded large salt deposits. Another salt trading center was Ivuna, near Lake Rukwe in modern Tanzania. Artifacts of copper, gold and iron excavated at Ingombe Ilede and Sanga indicate the existence of a trade in these materials, since there were no local sources (Wickins, 1981: 177).

Many of the pre-colonial rural markets of West Africa provided for the needs of local producers, consumers and traders as well as serving as foci forlong-distance traders. Some rural markets operated daily, depending upon the volume of trade. In Nigeria, Every village and town had markets which were attended in the morning or evening and in some cases, throughout the day. These markets were held either daily or periodically. The daily markets were local exchange points where producers, traders and consumers met to sell and buy. The periodic markets were organized on a cyclical basis of every three, four, five and sixteen days to feed the daily markets. Every community had a market cycle which enabled traders and buyers to attend different markets on different days (Falola, 1985:105).

The local markets had two important characteristics. The first was their
cyclical periodicity (Skinner, 1964). Market days were rotated among a cluster of villages. Yoruba, Dahomey and Guro markets operated on 5-day cycles. Igbo rural markets were on a 4-day or multiple of 4-day cycle while Mossi markets ran on a 3-day or 21-day cycle. The cycling served a dual purpose. It was an adaptation to a situation where the volume of goods to be exchanged was too small to carry out on a daily basis. It also promoted intercourse between villages and further served to stabilize prices in neighboring markets and redistribute supplies among them.

The second characteristic of rural markets was the segregation of vendors or merchants according to the products sold. Tomato sellers were seated at one section of the market. The object was to promote competition. "It (segregation) made it convenient for buyers to locate the regular section of each commodity, to choose from a wide variety of goods and to buy at a fair price since the traders had to compete with one another at the same time" (Falola, 1985; p.106).

In Mossi markets of Ghana, there was a further segregation by reference to the trader's place of origin (Skinner, 1962). For example, a large number of sellers of one type of product, say tomatoes, formed an open circle in which each trader sat facing the point of origin. Inside this circle, separated by a few feet, was another circle of traders of another produce with their backs toward the general direction from which they came. This configuration performed a social function by making it easier to find one's friends, to converse, to drink with them, to find someone through whom to send messages to specific villages, to find help needed in the event of a fight and to find an escape route by which one could leave in the event of trouble.

The markets were well organized and structured. Some specialized completely in certain product lines (agricultural produce versus handicrafts) while others carried general wares. Each market had its own rules and customs regarding settlement of disputes and the quality of the products being offered for sale. Disputes inevitably arose in market places and violence and fights occurred. For these reasons, the Guro of Ivory Coast located markets outside the village.

Generally, most African markets had market chiefs, often appointed by a
political chief or elected from among the traders, to maintain law and order at the marketplace. Among the Kuba of Zaire, the market chief "saw to it that no armed persons were allowed on the market place, and that the dealers in similar products were grouped together. His policemen repressed any uproar and settled on the spot any dispute about transactions" (Vansina, 1962).

Many other ethnic societies established courts at the market place to handle disputes (Bohannan, 1964; p.214). For example, the 19th century explorer Clapperton found that in the Hausa markets of Nigeria, "if a purchase was later found to be defective, the broker or seller was obliged by the laws of the market to refund the price paid for it" (Skinner, 1964).

Each Hausa market, kasuwa, had a headman (the Sarkin Kasuwa or Magajin Kasuwa) who was responsible to the village or town chief. He had a number of deputies: the Sarkin Awo (chief of the grainsellers, often a woman), the Sarkin Pawa (chief butcher), the Sarkin Dillalai (chief broker), and so on. Each craft leader was chosen by the group he/she represented. The Sarkin Pawa was responsible for the market meat supplies and also controlled the rotation of killings among the butchers.

The chief of the grain sellers was responsible for maintenance of fair measures and prices. Since grain used to be sold in various measures there was the potential for cheating. The Sarkin Awo enforced the use of standard measures such as the mudu, a metal bowl of standard capacity.

Generally, each craft headman remained with his/her various group to settle minor disputes about payment or quality of goods, price and the like, before they became serious, or brought them to the market chief, who could refer them to higher authority. Perhaps for this reason "quarreling and blows were very rare at these markets" (Gibbs, 1965; p.128). In other tribal systems, "a committee of elders took it as one of their most serious civic duties to maintain a market place so that their part of the world would be `kept on the map' and prosperity would reign" (Bohannan, 1964; p.213).

In the Guro markets of Ivory Coast, fines were imposed in cases of fights or
insults and there were men responsible for maintaining peace. Palm wine drinking was not allowed at Guro markets, except on very special occasions. Among the Igbo, the youngest age-grade, the ekpe uke isi (society-grade six) acted as the market police. They settled minor disputes, referring the serious ones to the ekpe uke esa court (grade seven). In the Konso markets of southern Ethiopia, petty complaints and disputes were taken up by the pokwalla (head man) and judges selected from the ranks of the Orshata (group of elders). The market area was patrolled by members of the local Xella (an age-grade), whose function it was to maintain order under the direction of other members of the Orshata
___________________________________________

They didn't practice the much maligned "laissez-faire" capitalism, but if this ain't capitalist, I don't know what is.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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JMello

Fri Feb-16-01 02:55 PM

  
59. "Have some humanity..."
In response to Reply # 56


          

>Teachers are underpaid, but they are
>in no way as valuable
>to our society as doctors.
> That's not to say
>that teachers are without value.
> Probably one of the
>most important jobs in our
>society, but doctors, farmers, and
>a few others are as
>important, if not more important.

Every job is equally important in our society, for without them it would no longer be our society.


JMello

"...it's about past 7 here, so we're actually in different timelines."

"I am mindful not only of preserving executive powers for myself, but my predecessors, as well. And that's why I made the decision."

"I'm about to name my brother the ambassador to Chad."

"They don't seem to be flocking in right now, but it is dove season in Texas. I'm a hunter and if I decide to shoot some dove, I'll shoot 'em and eat 'em."

--President-Select George W. Bush--

  

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Expertise
Charter member
37848 posts
Thu Feb-15-01 07:59 PM

Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
50. "RE: Read..."
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

Ahhh, something interesting. Lets break this down shall we...

>- I think that every human
>being deserves a living wage
>so that he or she
>can feed him or herself,
>capitalism does not allow for
>that.

"Deserves" does not equal "right". Noone "deserves" to go hungry, yet that doesn't mean that the ones that do have a right to simply take someone else's food, or their means to get it.

>- Competition being the disposition of
>man is a "theory" not
>a truth. Man is
>selfish according to Hobbes and
>Smith. But many philosophies
>of Asia, Africa, and Latin
>America contend that man is
>actually dependent on the community,
>not simply for selfish gains,
>but for his foresight that
>an overall healthy community is
>better for everyone.

That doesn't mean that the "community" can lay claim to what the man has earned, or has been given. The man still should be given the CHOICE on whether or not to invest in his community/environment. Anything less than that is simply taking by force.

Not to mention, who is the "community", and how does it speak and give opinion? The problem with collectivist politics is that it doesn't allow individuals to live free; instead, everything is for the "best of the community". The truth is, only community leaders, which consists of only a few people, claim to represent everyone's interest, as if they can speak for each and every individual, and/or the community thinks 100% monolisticly.

>- Socialism v. Communism. Socialism
>because I advocate equality of
>opportunity over equality of outcome.
> Capitalism, by its nature
>can never allow for equal
>opportunity, it never has.

How does socialism equate opportunity? I don't see how a collectivist system allows anyone to gain an opportunity to move out of the same class, whether economically or socially....that is, unless you are part of the leadership within the system.

>- The fact that Bill Gates
>has enough money to buy
>and sell most of the
>Western hemisphere makes me want
>to vomit. Especially when
>I know that his gross
>wealth necessitates someone else's gross
>poverty. Capitalism demands that
>it does.

And who are you to tell Bill Gates, or anyone for that matter, how much he can make and how much he can't? Also, Capitalism doesn't demand that Bill Gates keeps any of his money. It is his own choice whether to keep it, volunteer it, or give it up completely.

However, in socialism you are not allowed to even reach the potential of a Bill Gates because the "community" has this authoritarian intellect that tells them you dont need it as much as they do. Therefore, an argument can be made that under a socialist state the high-tech inventions and discoveries that were made today would have at least been postponed, due to lack of motivation and competition.

>- Every child deserves a decent
>education.

Once again, "deserve" does not mean "right". And who is to judge what is a decent education? Some people think anything less than Ivy League is a waste of time, yet some people feel comfortable with an associate degree from community college. Oops, there I go with the contention that people have individualistic thought.

A capitalist model
>(i.e. vouchers) denies that and
>states that the best schools
>should only be for the
>best students, and the children
>who are left behind are
>SOL.

Meanwhile, socialist schools should be "community"-controlled, in which the "community" decides on the ciriculumn along with what is best for the child to help out the "community".

I also believe
>that college and vocational training
>shoulc be a part of
>the free public school system,
>because the same social Darwinian
>model that I denounce is
>applied to college. There
>is very little individual can
>do with only a diploma.

But if everyone can get a degree, how is it going to change things? All you are doing is changing the level of the glass ceiling. Not to mention that in a socialist state everyone is practically living in the same type of community making practically the same wages, hence what's the use? *shrugs*

> Basically, our current system
>assures that there will always
>be a service class, which
>is disproportionately occupied by people
>of color. Capitalism demands
>this injustice.

Right. Because socialism will demand everyone to be part of a service class for the "community".

>- Teachers should be valued as
>much a doctors, and more
>valued than multimillion-dollar actors, actresses,
>and professional sports figures.

should, could, and would. If teachers were valued as much as doctors, then they would get paid more. It's kinda funny how you mention show business and athletic sports with the education field, since both get paid off of revenue based on support by fans that pay to see them. It's quite possible that they could have used that same money to support public education just as easily as they went to watch that movie. However, that idea would be implying that individuals should have a choice on how they should spend their money, which goes against socialism ideals, so never mind.

>Everyone should be valued for
>contributing to the society period,
>whether a janitor or a
>CEO. If we percieved contributions
>to the society in a
>less stratified, less hierarchical manner,
>this would make perfect sense.

But what if I didn't want to contribute to society? What if I went up to Montana or Wyoming, and decided to live on my own in the wilderness (People indeed do this, yanno)? Should I still be compensated by the "community"?

Or, what if I just dont give a damn, and say "I'mma sit around the house, and not work (people do this too, yanno.)." Should I still be compensated?

>- Currently, CEOs make 40 times
>as much as their average
>employee. In the 80s,
>it was only 5 times
>as much. The disparity
>between rich and poor is
>increasing, and as such, the
>urgency for some type of
>equalization is apparent, because history
>have shown us what happens
>when that disparity becomes too
>great.

I've made this argument before. The rich get richer because they continue to do the things that made them rich. The poor get poorer because they continue to do the things that made them poor. However, that doesn't mean that there is no opportunity whatsoever for a poor person to change his ways, and become rich. The contrary is vice-versa also.

>- Capitalism has failed Africans around
>the world. In fact,
>the primitive accumulation acquired by
>the Western world (as capitalism
>requires according to Adam Smith)
>was the result of using
>African as capital themselves.

An economic system doesn't have anything to do with morality. Can capitalistic measures have something to do with the institution of slavery? Sure. But socialistic measures just as well could be included with genocide, triage, and the harrassment of political opponents.

The truth is, that if you have immoral tendencies within you then it doesn't matter what economic system you are in, it will always be tainted.

>Capitalism continues to marginalize individuals,
>and what's worse is that
>it wears the guise of
>providing opportunities for all.
>Capitalism is a lie to
>anyone who isn't white, male,
>and/or rich, because any one
>of these qualities gives one
>an unearned advantage..."unearned" is something
>that capitalism forgets to take
>into consideration.

Yet, socialism wouldn't give anyone an opportunity to rise to their fullest potentials economically or socially whatsoever. In fact, the virtual caste system that capitalism has would turn into a real caste system under socialism, in which your status at birth determines the status you will keep until death.

>I know there are probably many
>flaws in my analysis, I'm
>still trying to work all
>this out. I just
>don't know how a system
>that purposely causes division for
>the sake of "progress" can
>ever be beneficial to those
>who are not equipped, who
>can never be fully equipped
>to compete with unearned privilege.

And you think socialism will "equip" people? With the limited number of resources on this earth in comparison to the growing population as the days go by, there will never be an equal amount of anything for everyone. At least with pure capitalism, you get the opportunity to rise ahead of the pack, given that you are willing to do what it takes to get there. Status at birth is a major factor, I agree, but it isn't the only factor. You can ask people throughout history that have lost fortune and power, along with the ones that had fortune and power only to live and die miserable.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasury. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship." - Alexander Tyler

"In general the art of government consists in taking as much money as possible from one class of citizens to give to the other." -Voltaire

"The assumption that spending more of the taxpayer's money will make things better has survived all kinds of evidence that it has made things worse. The black family- which survived slavery, discrimination, poverty, wars and depressions- began to come apart as the federal government moved in with its well-financed programs to "help." - Thomas Sowell

"Life is insensitive, and the truth can be highly offensive. To hide from either is to hide from the reality of life. Take pride in the fact that I am an equal opportunity offender. You today, someone else tomorrow. You have no constitutional right not to be offended." - Neal Boortz

Some of you still think America's a
democracy. Lemme break it down for
ya...

* Democracy:  Three wolves and a sheep
vote on the dinner menu.
* Democratically Elected Republic: Three
wolves and 2 sheep vote on which sheep's
for dinner. 
* Constitutional Republic: The eating of
mutton is forbidden by law, and the
sheep are armed.

The United States is a CONSTITUTIONAL
REPUBLIC. Not a democracy.

Yes....I am a PROUD Black Libertarian Conservative.

_________________________
http://expertise.blogdrive.com
http://twitter.com/KMBReferee
http://www.ask.fm/KMBReferee

  

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pocahontas
Charter member
441 posts
Fri Feb-16-01 03:02 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
51. "I'm tired of talking about this, so"
In response to Reply # 50


          

>Ahhh, something interesting. Lets break
>this down shall we...
>
>>- I think that every human
>>being deserves a living wage
>>so that he or she
>>can feed him or herself,
>>capitalism does not allow for
>>that.
>
>"Deserves" does not equal "right".
>Noone "deserves" to go hungry,
>yet that doesn't mean that
>the ones that do have
>a right to simply take
>someone else's food, or their
>means to get it.
>
>>- Competition being the disposition of
>>man is a "theory" not
>>a truth. Man is
>>selfish according to Hobbes and
>>Smith. But many philosophies
>>of Asia, Africa, and Latin
>>America contend that man is
>>actually dependent on the community,
>>not simply for selfish gains,
>>but for his foresight that
>>an overall healthy community is
>>better for everyone.
>
>That doesn't mean that the "community"
>can lay claim to what
>the man has earned, or
>has been given. The
>man still should be given
>the CHOICE on whether or
>not to invest in his
>community/environment. Anything less than
>that is simply taking by
>force.
>
>Not to mention, who is the
>"community", and how does it
>speak and give opinion?
>The problem with collectivist politics
>is that it doesn't allow
>individuals to live free; instead,
>everything is for the "best
>of the community". The
>truth is, only community leaders,
>which consists of only a
>few people, claim to represent
>everyone's interest, as if they
>can speak for each and
>every individual, and/or the community
>thinks 100% monolisticly.
>
>>- Socialism v. Communism. Socialism
>>because I advocate equality of
>>opportunity over equality of outcome.
>> Capitalism, by its nature
>>can never allow for equal
>>opportunity, it never has.
>
>How does socialism equate opportunity?
>I don't see how a
>collectivist system allows anyone to
>gain an opportunity to move
>out of the same class,
>whether economically or socially....that is,
>unless you are part of
>the leadership within the system.
>
>
>>- The fact that Bill Gates
>>has enough money to buy
>>and sell most of the
>>Western hemisphere makes me want
>>to vomit. Especially when
>>I know that his gross
>>wealth necessitates someone else's gross
>>poverty. Capitalism demands that
>>it does.
>
>And who are you to tell
>Bill Gates, or anyone for
>that matter, how much he
>can make and how much
>he can't? Also, Capitalism
>doesn't demand that Bill Gates
>keeps any of his money.
> It is his own
>choice whether to keep it,
>volunteer it, or give it
>up completely.
>
>However, in socialism you are not
>allowed to even reach the
>potential of a Bill Gates
>because the "community" has this
>authoritarian intellect that tells them
>you dont need it as
>much as they do.
>Therefore, an argument can be
>made that under a socialist
>state the high-tech inventions and
>discoveries that were made today
>would have at least been
>postponed, due to lack of
>motivation and competition.
>
>>- Every child deserves a decent
>>education.
>
>Once again, "deserve" does not mean
>"right". And who is
>to judge what is a
>decent education? Some people
>think anything less than Ivy
>League is a waste of
>time, yet some people feel
>comfortable with an associate degree
>from community college. Oops,
>there I go with the
>contention that people have individualistic
>thought.
>
>A capitalist model
>>(i.e. vouchers) denies that and
>>states that the best schools
>>should only be for the
>>best students, and the children
>>who are left behind are
>>SOL.
>
>Meanwhile, socialist schools should be "community"-controlled,
>in which the "community" decides
>on the ciriculumn along with
>what is best for the
>child to help out the
>"community".
>
>I also believe
>>that college and vocational training
>>shoulc be a part of
>>the free public school system,
>>because the same social Darwinian
>>model that I denounce is
>>applied to college. There
>>is very little individual can
>>do with only a diploma.
>
>But if everyone can get a
>degree, how is it going
>to change things? All
>you are doing is changing
>the level of the glass
>ceiling. Not to mention
>that in a socialist state
>everyone is practically living in
>the same type of community
>making practically the same wages,
>hence what's the use?
>*shrugs*
>
>> Basically, our current system
>>assures that there will always
>>be a service class, which
>>is disproportionately occupied by people
>>of color. Capitalism demands
>>this injustice.
>
>Right. Because socialism will demand
>everyone to be part of
>a service class for the
>"community".
>
>>- Teachers should be valued as
>>much a doctors, and more
>>valued than multimillion-dollar actors, actresses,
>>and professional sports figures.
>
>should, could, and would. If
>teachers were valued as much
>as doctors, then they would
>get paid more. It's
>kinda funny how you mention
>show business and athletic sports
>with the education field, since
>both get paid off of
>revenue based on support by
>fans that pay to see
>them. It's quite possible
>that they could have used
>that same money to support
>public education just as easily
>as they went to watch
>that movie. However, that
>idea would be implying that
>individuals should have a choice
>on how they should spend
>their money, which goes against
>socialism ideals, so never mind.
>
>
>>Everyone should be valued for
>>contributing to the society period,
>>whether a janitor or a
>>CEO. If we percieved contributions
>>to the society in a
>>less stratified, less hierarchical manner,
>>this would make perfect sense.
>
>But what if I didn't want
>to contribute to society?
>What if I went up
>to Montana or Wyoming, and
>decided to live on my
>own in the wilderness (People
>indeed do this, yanno)?
>Should I still be compensated
>by the "community"?
>
>Or, what if I just dont
>give a damn, and say
>"I'mma sit around the house,
>and not work (people do
>this too, yanno.)." Should
>I still be compensated?
>
>>- Currently, CEOs make 40 times
>>as much as their average
>>employee. In the 80s,
>>it was only 5 times
>>as much. The disparity
>>between rich and poor is
>>increasing, and as such, the
>>urgency for some type of
>>equalization is apparent, because history
>>have shown us what happens
>>when that disparity becomes too
>>great.
>
>I've made this argument before.
>The rich get richer because
>they continue to do the
>things that made them rich.
> The poor get poorer
>because they continue to do
>the things that made them
>poor. However, that doesn't
>mean that there is no
>opportunity whatsoever for a poor
>person to change his ways,
>and become rich. The
>contrary is vice-versa also.
>
>>- Capitalism has failed Africans around
>>the world. In fact,
>>the primitive accumulation acquired by
>>the Western world (as capitalism
>>requires according to Adam Smith)
>>was the result of using
>>African as capital themselves.
>
>An economic system doesn't have anything
>to do with morality.
>Can capitalistic measures have something
>to do with the institution
>of slavery? Sure.
>But socialistic measures just as
>well could be included with
>genocide, triage, and the harrassment
>of political opponents.
>
>The truth is, that if you
>have immoral tendencies within you
>then it doesn't matter what
>economic system you are in,
>it will always be tainted.
>
>
>>Capitalism continues to marginalize individuals,
>>and what's worse is that
>>it wears the guise of
>>providing opportunities for all.
>>Capitalism is a lie to
>>anyone who isn't white, male,
>>and/or rich, because any one
>>of these qualities gives one
>>an unearned advantage..."unearned" is something
>>that capitalism forgets to take
>>into consideration.
>
>Yet, socialism wouldn't give anyone an
>opportunity to rise to their
>fullest potentials economically or socially
>whatsoever. In fact, the
>virtual caste system that capitalism
>has would turn into a
>real caste system under socialism,
>in which your status at
>birth determines the status you
>will keep until death.
>
>>I know there are probably many
>>flaws in my analysis, I'm
>>still trying to work all
>>this out. I just
>>don't know how a system
>>that purposely causes division for
>>the sake of "progress" can
>>ever be beneficial to those
>>who are not equipped, who
>>can never be fully equipped
>>to compete with unearned privilege.
>
>And you think socialism will "equip"
>people? With the limited
>number of resources on this
>earth in comparison to the
>growing population as the days
>go by, there will never
>be an equal amount of
>anything for everyone. At
>least with pure capitalism, you
>get the opportunity to rise
>ahead of the pack, given
>that you are willing to
>do what it takes to
>get there. Status at
>birth is a major factor,
>I agree, but it isn't
>the only factor. You
>can ask people throughout history
>that have lost fortune and
>power, along with the ones
>that had fortune and power
>only to live and die
>miserable.
>
>"A democracy cannot exist as a
>permanent form of government. It
>can only exist until the
>voters discover that they can
>vote themselves money from the
>public treasury. From that moment
>on the majority always votes
>for the candidates promising the
>most money from the public
>treasury, with the result that
>a democracy always collapses over
>loose fiscal policy followed by
>a dictatorship." - Alexander Tyler
>
>
>"In general the art of government
>consists in taking as much
>money as possible from one
>class of citizens to give
>to the other." -Voltaire
>
>"The assumption that spending more of
>the taxpayer's money will make
>things better has survived all
>kinds of evidence that it
>has made things worse. The
>black family- which survived slavery,
>discrimination, poverty, wars and
>depressions- began to come apart
>as the federal government moved
>in with its well-financed programs
>to "help." - Thomas Sowell
>
>
>"Life is insensitive, and the truth
>can be highly offensive.
>To hide from either is
>to hide from the reality
>of life. Take pride
>in the fact that I
>am an equal opportunity offender.
> You today, someone else
>tomorrow. You have no
>constitutional right not to be
>offended." - Neal Boortz
>
>
>Some of you still think America's
>a
>democracy. Lemme break it down
>for
>ya...
>
>* Democracy:  Three wolves and a
>sheep
>vote on the dinner menu.
>* Democratically Elected Republic: Three
>wolves and 2 sheep vote on
>which sheep's
>for dinner. 
>* Constitutional Republic: The eating of
>
>mutton is forbidden by law, and
>the
>sheep are armed.
>
>The United States is a CONSTITUTIONAL
>
>REPUBLIC. Not a democracy.
>
>Yes....I am a PROUD Black Libertarian
>Conservative.



  

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Expertise
Charter member
37848 posts
Wed Feb-21-01 06:16 PM

Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
60. "RE: I'm tired of talking about this, so"
In response to Reply # 51


  

          

good. that's the best thing for you to do.

_________________________
http://expertise.blogdrive.com
http://twitter.com/KMBReferee
http://www.ask.fm/KMBReferee

  

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JMello

Fri Feb-16-01 09:34 AM

  
55. "So what?"
In response to Reply # 50


          

>And who are you to tell
>Bill Gates, or anyone for
>that matter, how much he
>can make and how much
>he can't? Also, Capitalism
>doesn't demand that Bill Gates
>keeps any of his money.
> It is his own
>choice whether to keep it,
>volunteer it, or give it
>up completely.

Who is he to take form others? What exceptional skills and/or transcendental powers does he possess that are deserving of $90,000,000,000?


>However, in socialism you are not
>allowed to even reach the
>potential of a Bill Gates
>because the "community" has this
>authoritarian intellect that tells them
>you dont need it as
>much as they do.
>Therefore, an argument can be
>made that under a socialist
>state the high-tech inventions and
>discoveries that were made today
>would have at least been
>postponed, due to lack of
>motivation and competition.

A very common argument. I would like to know two things:

A: Do we really as a society need all this technological crap.
If we had more free time, we wouldn't be chatting on this board we would be discussion socialism in a bar somewhere over a beer (or water if you don't drink).

B: Is it ever gonna end? Will we ever reach a point in society where wel will finally say "we have arrived" (i.e. no more innovation is necessary.)? At which time we would direct our energy toward improving what already exists. If not, then what the hell are we working for (besides transferring wealth to Bill Gates)?


JMello

"...it's about past 7 here, so we're actually in different timelines."

"I am mindful not only of preserving executive powers for myself, but my predecessors, as well. And that's why I made the decision."

"I'm about to name my brother the ambassador to Chad."

"They don't seem to be flocking in right now, but it is dove season in Texas. I'm a hunter and if I decide to shoot some dove, I'll shoot 'em and eat 'em."

--President-Select George W. Bush--

  

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Expertise
Charter member
37848 posts
Wed Feb-21-01 06:34 PM

Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
61. "RE: So what?"
In response to Reply # 55


  

          

>Who is he to take form
>others? What exceptional skills
>and/or transcendental powers does he
>possess that are deserving of
>$90,000,000,000?

He didn't "take" anything from anyone. He recieved this money from investors and comsumers. When you implied that he "took" something it's as if he posessed something either by force or illegally, which he did neither.

>A: Do we really as a
>society need all this technological
>crap.

Some of this "technological crap" helps to save lives and make other people's lives easier.

>If we had more free time,
>we wouldn't be chatting on
>this board we would be
>discussion socialism in a bar
>somewhere over a beer (or
>water if you don't drink).

I don't drink. However part-time I work in a microbrewery/restaurant; I think they drink enough for me.

Personally, I'd rather have a Gatorade.

Other than Boodah and the other OkayMonitors, I dont think there is anyone that is actually forced to participate on this board. Hence, you're always free to discuss socialism anywhere else on the planet you like.

>B: Is it ever gonna end?
> Will we ever reach
>a point in society where
>wel will finally say "we
>have arrived" (i.e. no more
>innovation is necessary.)? At
>which time we would direct
>our energy toward improving what
>already exists. If not,
>then what the hell are
>we working for (besides transferring
>wealth to Bill Gates)?

I think one of the objectives of technology is to "improve what already exists".

I doubt if we ever get to the point where we dont need to improve the lives of people in some way. I would think that state would be considered utopia, in which I dont believe is possible.


"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasury. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship." - Alexander Tyler

"In general the art of government consists in taking as much money as possible from one class of citizens to give to the other." -Voltaire

"The assumption that spending more of the taxpayer's money will make things better has survived all kinds of evidence that it has made things worse. The black family- which survived slavery, discrimination, poverty, wars and depressions- began to come apart as the federal government moved in with its well-financed programs to "help." - Thomas Sowell

"Life is insensitive, and the truth can be highly offensive. To hide from either is to hide from the reality of life. Take pride in the fact that I am an equal opportunity offender. You today, someone else tomorrow. You have no constitutional right not to be offended." - Neal Boortz

Some of you still think America's a
democracy. Lemme break it down for
ya...

* Democracy:  Three wolves and a sheep
vote on the dinner menu.
* Democratically Elected Republic: Three
wolves and 2 sheep vote on which sheep's
for dinner. 
* Constitutional Republic: The eating of
mutton is forbidden by law, and the
sheep are armed.

The United States is a CONSTITUTIONAL
REPUBLIC. Not a democracy.

Yes....I am a PROUD Black Libertarian Conservative.

_________________________
http://expertise.blogdrive.com
http://twitter.com/KMBReferee
http://www.ask.fm/KMBReferee

  

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