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Ylana

Mon Feb-12-01 12:00 AM

  
"AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?"


          

Africa is "I(E)n Vogue" and Vanity Fair and Time, Newsweek, etc. etc. etc... Never in my life have I read so many "feature stories" on thoroughly African people in major U.S. publications. It is a dayum shame that African folks have to be literally "dying" to make front page news. I don't think it would be too far-fetched to say that many Westerners take pleasure in seeing/presenting Africa in such a dilapitated state. As it stands (to my knowledge) a proud, achieving and glorious Africa has yet to make a front-page appearance at the newstands (save Mandela/the end of Apartheid). But yet troubles: Rwanda, The Congo, Zimbabwe, Sierra Leone, ...etc....

*Clearing throat*

But AIDS...Quoting stats from this week's TIME (I hate to do this but just to give an idea): Of 36 million people living with hiv/aids in 2000 more than 70% were in Sub-Saharan Africa. The numbers of infected folks in South Africa (hmmmm?) are ASTRONMOICAL. The numbers of black folks infected here in the U.S. are on the RISE and in both cases black women are all-too-common victims. I haven't tore into the article yet, but I've been developing my own theories. Call it an over-active imagination or what'cha want: Is AIDS the weapon-of-choice in the extermination of black folks?

Theories?

Complaints?

disclaimer:I'm not sure if this topic has been attempted before but my apologies ahead of time if it has.

"We live the now for the promise of the infinite" --Mos Def

"I'm tryin' to soar to altitudes unknown to man, woman or the most agile of birds" --yours truly

"your people first. a quiet strength. the positioning of oneself so that observation becomes reaction, where study is preferred to night life, where emotion is not seen as a weakness. love for self, family, children and extensions of self is beyond the verbal"
--Haki R. Madhubuti

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?
Feb 12th 2001
1
RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?
Ylana
Feb 12th 2001
5
All reports
Feb 12th 2001
7
      Youre not too bright huh?
Feb 12th 2001
12
      RE: Youre not too bright huh?
Feb 12th 2001
13
      Okay genuis
Feb 13th 2001
37
           RE: Okay genuis
Feb 13th 2001
39
           Oh no!!!
Feb 13th 2001
41
                Dog...
Feb 13th 2001
44
                RE: Oh no!!!
Feb 13th 2001
53
                     RE: Oh no!!!
Mar 04th 2001
82
                          RE: Oh no!!!
Mar 04th 2001
87
           RE: Okay genuis
Feb 13th 2001
49
      no...you're not too bright.
Feb 13th 2001
17
      but my question is
Feb 13th 2001
22
      RE: but my question is
Feb 13th 2001
23
      and my answer would be...
Feb 13th 2001
25
      thanks for your opinions n/m
Feb 13th 2001
29
      RE: All reports
peoke7
Feb 13th 2001
24
      RE: All reports
Feb 13th 2001
26
      RE: All reports
Feb 13th 2001
28
           you missed the point...
Mar 04th 2001
83
                RE: you missed the point...
Mar 04th 2001
86
      HERE you go...
Feb 13th 2001
27
      I hear u...thanks...n/m
Feb 13th 2001
30
      RE: All reports
DivineCipher
Feb 13th 2001
50
      A bit more
Ylana
Feb 13th 2001
64
           You took what I said out of context...
Feb 14th 2001
67
                By looking at the comment...
Mar 03rd 2001
78
                     RE: By looking at the comment...
Mar 03rd 2001
81
up!
Mar 02nd 2001
71
RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?
Mr_Sarcastic_tha_Antagonist
Mar 02nd 2001
73
      but then you get into some deeper stuff
Mar 03rd 2001
77
don't know if it's a conspiracy
Feb 12th 2001
2
not a conspircy per se, so much as a
Feb 12th 2001
3
RE: not a conspircy per se, so much as a
Feb 12th 2001
4
RE: not a conspircy per se, so much as a
Ylana
Feb 12th 2001
6
      Oh, I see. You're one of THOSE.
Feb 12th 2001
8
           RE: Oh, I see. You're one of THOSE.
Feb 12th 2001
9
           A 'Rose' by any other name...
Ylana
Feb 12th 2001
10
           RE: A 'Rose' by any other name...
Feb 12th 2001
11
                my two cents...
fflood
Feb 12th 2001
14
                the saying goes
Feb 13th 2001
18
                     um, that shoud say...
Feb 13th 2001
21
                          RE: um, that shoud say...
fflood
Feb 13th 2001
52
                               We're not arguing America's history...
Feb 14th 2001
66
                                    you are NOT reading...
Mar 04th 2001
84
                                         RE: you are NOT reading...
Mar 04th 2001
85
                riiggh...
Feb 13th 2001
19
                     RE: riiggh...
Feb 13th 2001
20
           RE: Oh, I see. You're one of THOSE.
DivineCipher
Feb 13th 2001
48
RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?
Feb 13th 2001
15
RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?
Feb 13th 2001
16
RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?
Feb 13th 2001
31
      RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?
Feb 13th 2001
32
RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?
Feb 13th 2001
55
RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?
DivineCipher
Feb 13th 2001
57
      RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?
Feb 13th 2001
61
Shut 'em down!!!
Ylana
Feb 13th 2001
65
RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?
DivineCipher
Feb 13th 2001
33
RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?
Feb 13th 2001
34
Huh?
Feb 13th 2001
36
RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?
DivineCipher
Feb 13th 2001
35
RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?
Feb 13th 2001
38
And this proves? n/m
Feb 13th 2001
40
      RE: And this proves? n/m
Feb 13th 2001
42
           As SD said...
Feb 13th 2001
43
                RE: As SD said...
DivineCipher
Feb 13th 2001
54
                     My point was...
Feb 14th 2001
68
RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?
DivineCipher
Feb 13th 2001
45
facts, please?
Feb 13th 2001
46
      RE: facts, please?
DivineCipher
Feb 13th 2001
47
      RE: facts, please?
Feb 13th 2001
51
           RE: facts, please?
DivineCipher
Feb 13th 2001
56
           RE: facts, please?
Feb 13th 2001
59
                RE: facts, please?
DivineCipher
Feb 13th 2001
62
           SD, are in the medical profession?
DivineCipher
Feb 13th 2001
58
                actually, I teach...
Feb 13th 2001
60
      As presented by whom?
Ylana
Feb 13th 2001
63
           It must be fun to talk in empty euphemism.
Feb 14th 2001
69
                *hugs & kisses*
Ylana
Feb 14th 2001
70
RE: AIDS in Africa: check the herpes vaccination trials?
Mar 02nd 2001
72
RE: AIDS in Africa: check the herpes vaccination trials?
Mar 02nd 2001
74
      RE: AIDS in Africa: check the herpes vaccination trials?
Mar 03rd 2001
75
           RE: AIDS in Africa: check the herpes vaccination trials?
Mar 03rd 2001
76
           RE: AIDS in Africa: check the herpes vaccination trials?
Mar 03rd 2001
79
                nice
Mar 03rd 2001
80
                thanks,
Mar 04th 2001
88
                Good shit! n/m
Mar 04th 2001
89
The History Of The Development Of AIDS
Mar 06th 2001
90
RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?
Mar 06th 2001
91
another one of THOSE people. n/m
Mar 06th 2001
92
ATTN conspiracy theorists:
Mar 06th 2001
93

QuestOn4
Member since Aug 08th 2003
39 posts
Mon Feb-12-01 03:08 AM

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1. "RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?"
In response to Reply # 0


          


>
>*Clearing throat*
>
>But AIDS...Quoting stats from this week's
>TIME (I hate to do
>this but just to give
>an idea): Of 36 million
>people living with hiv/aids in
>2000 more than 70% were
>in Sub-Saharan Africa. The numbers
>of infected folks in South
>Africa (hmmmm?) are ASTRONMOICAL. The
>numbers of black folks infected
>here in the U.S. are
>on the RISE and in
>both cases black women are
>all-too-common victims. I haven't tore
>into the article yet, but
>I've been developing my own
>theories. Call it an over-active
>imagination or what'cha want: Is
>AIDS the weapon-of-choice in the
>extermination of black folks?

I'm sure you'll find people who are paranoid enough to believe that. I don't.

First, epidemics are always localized, that is, they begin and are centralized in a given place. The Black Death was centralized in Europe, and wiped out half the people there.

>Complaints?

Because of the lack of medical equipment/supplies in Sub-Saharan Africa, the spread of AIDS has been sped up. In the industrialized countries, they can at least educate people about the disease. In Africa, you've got dozens of languages, bloody internal conflicts----neither of which lend themselves to educating people about protection, precaution, etc.

----Initiating shutdown sequence----
---Deactivating Soul Brother Prototype: "Quest"---

The Collective is:

Vex Bliss
La Note
Nuru
Quest

http://www.womb.cjb.net

AIM: QuestOn4

  

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Ylana

Mon Feb-12-01 09:25 AM

  
5. "RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?"
In response to Reply # 1


          

>>First, epidemics are always localized, that is, they begin and are centralized in a given place. The Black Death was centralized in Europe, and wiped out half the people there.

How does that explain the disproportionate number of infected AFrams in America? In every major "black" city in the U.S., HIV/AIDS is spreading at alarming rates. I personally, refuse to believe that Aframs are the only folks exchanging bodily fluids around here. I'd like to know where the figures are coming from--There are brothas and sistas who won't line up for flu shots, let alone get tested for AIDS.

>Complaints?

>>Because of the lack of medical equipment/supplies in Sub-Saharan Africa, the spread of AIDS has been sped up. In the industrialized countries, they can at least educate people about the disease. In Africa, you've got dozens of languages, bloody internal conflicts----neither of which lend themselves to educating people about protection, precaution, etc.

Couldn't that be said for most "Thirld World" countries?

"We live the now for the promise of the infinite" --Mos Def

"I'm tryin' to soar to altitudes unknown to man, woman or the most agile of birds" --yours truly

"your people first. a quiet strength. the positioning of oneself so that observation becomes reaction, where study is preferred to night life, where emotion is not seen as a weakness. love for self, family, children and extensions of self is beyond the verbal"
--Haki R. Madhubuti

  

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QuestOn4
Member since Aug 08th 2003
39 posts
Mon Feb-12-01 11:50 AM

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7. "All reports"
In response to Reply # 5


          

verify that the HIV virus has long been carried by African green monkeys.

Wherever the first ape-to-human transmittal would've been, that woulda been the place with the highest cases of it. So it's ground zero, AND there's no weaponry to fight it. If AIDS was carried in monkeys in India, the same thing would happen.

Also, sex isn't the only way AIDS can be transmitted. But since you wanna go there...

In general, black folks in US cities have higher instances of teenage pregnancy.

FOllow me now...

That would imply somewhere that young black people are not protecting themselves, which as we know, is the easiest way to get AIDS.

You disagree?

It's easier to look for a scapegoat than it would be to hold you own people accountable.

If you wanna take it THERE...

It's only a conspiracy if a few people know. When it's public knowledge, then it's not. So let's suspend our common sense and suppose AIDS was manmade...black folks would still have it within their power to protect themselves, as they know how it is transmitted.



----Initiating shutdown sequence----
---Deactivating Soul Brother Prototype: "Quest"---

The Collective is:

Vex Bliss
La Note
Nuru
Quest

http://www.womb.cjb.net

AIM: QuestOn4

  

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undaground_ish
Charter member
755 posts
Mon Feb-12-01 05:07 PM

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12. "Youre not too bright huh?"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

Cus it doesnt take a rocket scientist to see the inconsistencies that are present in the government theories as to how AIDS originated. You expect the U.S. government to give you the truth?? African green monkeys???? To quote NAS, "I dont believe in none of that shit ya facts are backwards" OK, so AIDS originated in Africa, infecting the heterosexual population there, then somehow, mysteriously and SIMULTANEOUSLY, infected PREDOMINATLEY, no fuck that, EXCLUSIVELY, WHITE HOMOSEXUAL MEN in the U.S.? And now, at the present, Black women have the largest growth rate of AIDS in the Amerikkkan population. Bullshit. To quote Boyd Ed Graves, "There is no way for a White gay disease to transform itself into a health problem for Black women". The fact of the matter is that AIDS was created as a form of population control, and homosexuals and Africans were the first targeted. AIDS is not a homosexual disease, nor an African disease. For green monkeys to have spread AIDS to that many people in Africa, EVERY African green monkey in Africa would have to be infected, and would have to have bitten millions of Africans. There is no way possible for a handful of green monkeys to infect over 50 million people worldwide and over 25 million in Africa. Do you realize how LONG that would take? If you wanna bring science into it, thats scientifically IMPOSSIBLE to occur in 20 years. Oh, maybe you say AIDS has been around forever and began infecting people, lets say, 50 years ago? Okay, if that was the case, why have within the last 15 years the majority of AIDS cases been reported. Fuck, last year alone over 5 MILLION people were infected, with 4 MILLION of them being AFRICAN. Whut, have people sumhow become more promiscuious than they were 50 years ago? Bullshit. And, if AIDS has exsisted forever, why did it take so long for it to infect people? Whut, sumhow monkeys began biting people like crazy 20 years ago, but they never did b4??? Again, i say, BULLSHIT. If AIDS has been around forever, and it just now began infecting people, then, if you wanna bring science into the equation, wouldnt you think it would take the same amount of time to infect 50 MILLION people? Oh wait, no, thats right, people are more promiscuious now and monkeys bite more people nowadays, right? The fact is, if indeed AIDS has been around forever, it wouldnt have taken this long for it to be introduced to the Human population, and definitely wouldnt have infected people so quickly. If AIDS exsisted 50 years ago, judging frum statistics, i would think about 500 MILLION people would be infected, not 50 million, and since now, AIDS is present on EVERY continent and in prolly EVERY COUNTRY, it wouldnt so disproportionally effect Black people. And why have so many people in the U.S. been infected, but not as many in European countries, which are closer to Africa? The fact is, AIDS HASNT been around forever, and was introduced to the African population via MAN MADE vaccines, as well as to the homosexual population via the hepatitis B vaccine. AIDS was created in GOVERNMENT laboratories, it didnt occur naturally. And you actually believe AIDS just JUMPED species, frum APE TO HUMANS? Then, why doesnt FIV, which is Feline Immune-deficiency Virus, the feline equivalent to AIDS, jump to humans when cats bite people? Fuck, in many countries, they EAT CATS, so, you dont think nobody has ever eaten a cat with Feline AIDS? Why hasnt FIV ever appeared in HUMANS? Why did so many gays who were involved in the Hepatitis B vaccination in New York in the 1970's, die frum AIDS after the Hepatitis B vaccine was administered in Manhattan? Why did AIDS appear in Africa after vaccines were introduced which basically wiped out small pox and polio? Small pox disappears, AIDS appears...hmmm. Whuteva, close your eyes and plug your ears, be blind and deaf to the real facts. And while the government spends the next 50 years lookin for a cure they wont find becus they make too much money off medicine and AIDS, and the African population is completely devastated by AIDS and similar diseases, continue to be blind and deaf and believe the "African Green Monkey" theory, but im crazy right? For anybody that wants more information on AIDS and its origins, check these sites:

http://sun-city.net/stateorigin/home.html

http://www.rense.com/ufo4/manmade.htm

http://www.trufax.org/research/horodet.html

http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/1158/aids_origin.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/6583/project104.html




"My grandmother always tol me Jason, beware ov ur surroundings/ Ya friends ya countin on could also be ya drownin/ She said life is jus a journey and we all on ships/ So get sum ownership, before you end up, unda the ocean ov wasted talent/ Where the coulda shoulda people sit an mope/ My ambition reflects success to my ol school folx/ Jus keep ya head up/ Its got ta get betta, becus its written/ I know sumtimes it seems the negativity wont let up"--Planet Asia




  

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standard deviant
Charter member
1206 posts
Mon Feb-12-01 09:28 PM

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13. "RE: Youre not too bright huh?"
In response to Reply # 12


          

"sweet merciful crap" -- Homer Simpson
"The question is not whether you are right or wrong, sir. You are not even in the conversation." -- Carl Sagan

I don't even know where to start...you presented a dump (important choice of words) of misinformation. I suppose I'll start by saying you have some SERIOUS misconceptions about the disease and how it is spread.

>To quote NAS, "I dont
>believe in none of that
>shit ya facts are backwards"

Yeah, Nas has long been the authority in biological science...

>OK, so AIDS originated in
>Africa, infecting the heterosexual population
>there, then somehow, mysteriously and
>SIMULTANEOUSLY, infected PREDOMINATLEY, no fuck
>that, EXCLUSIVELY, WHITE HOMOSEXUAL MEN
>in the U.S.?

Actually, records of AIDS infections go far further back than that. The first instance of AIDS in the US was in St. Louis in 1968. There are records of AIDS in England and Norway in 1959 (or course, the proof is from testing blood samples from those dates. It wasn't called AIDS because we didn't know it existed at the time. These were "mysterious" deaths back then). Rate of mutation calculations put the age of HIV around 70-80 years. As far as homosexuals in the US...they, as well as drug users and other ostracized/stigmatized groups, fit the bill for rapid transmission of the disease (especially given the incubation period).

And now,
>at the present, Black women
>have the largest growth rate
>of AIDS in the Amerikkkan
>population.

Women are more succeptable in general...that is a fact for ALL sexually transmitted diseases...it is a matter of the "mechanics" of sex (and the "hardware").

Bullshit. To quote Boyd
>Ed Graves, "There is no
>way for a White gay
>disease to transform itself into
>a health problem for Black
>women".

Do you SERIOUSLY believe this? You are talking about a blood-borne pathogen. It is by no means difficult to imagine the move from homosexual to heterosexual communities by blood transfusion (not to mention bi-sexuals). Once in the heterosexual population AIDS will, like in all populations, be most prolific in the dirtiest, poorest and/or most uneducated segments of the group. For reasons independant of this disease, that generally means homosexuals, drug users, and "inner city" communities (and, of course, trailer trash). What a joke.

The fact of the
>matter is that AIDS was
>created as a form of
>population control, and homosexuals and
>Africans were the first targeted.
>AIDS is not a homosexual
>disease, nor an African disease.

ummm...do those two statements not at least partially contradict? How does one control a population without targeting that population?

>For green monkeys to have
>spread AIDS to that many
>people in Africa, EVERY African
>green monkey in Africa would
>have to be infected, and
>would have to have bitten
>millions of Africans.

Again, you're joking, right? Lets see...sex transmits the disease, blood transmits the disease, needles (which aren't exactly easy to come by in many third world countries and so DO get re-used, despite warnings otherwise) transmit the disease...and once you've got it, BIRTH transmits the disease. You're telling me your mind can't fathom these conditions leading to it's spread? The green monkey theory has those monkey's INTRODUCING the virus...they are not the mode of trasportation. Remember, the virus mutated and "jumped species"...there has been NO scientific postulate that monkeys biting people have EVER transmitted the disease. Remember, the virus in other primates is SIV (Simian). Where do you get this from?

On a side note...there is definitely room for criticism of the theory that it originated in Africa. But the legitimate claims to made on this topic are pretty far from what you are saying here. There is even room to criticize the "species jump", but there is certainly scarce room to postulate that HIV was engineered...but I'm getting ahead of myself.

There is
>no way possible for a
>handful of green monkeys to
>infect over 50 million people
>worldwide and over 25 million
>in Africa. Do you realize
>how LONG that would take?
>If you wanna bring science
>into it, thats scientifically IMPOSSIBLE
>to occur in 20 years.

Read above. Remember, the virus existed and wasn't noticed (until to late) for years before this...add needles, sex, blood, and birth to all of this, and you could amass a pretty good population of infected people (do you have any idea how many people are born each day? how about how many people recieve a shot or transfusion each day?).

>Oh, maybe you say AIDS
>has been around forever and
>began infecting people, lets say,
>50 years ago? Okay, if
>that was the case, why
>have within the last 15
>years the majority of AIDS
>cases been reported.

Hmmmm...that is like saying "if the landmass that is America existed in some form since the earth's formation, why did all of the european exploration and colonization occur in the last half century?"

If you're not looking for it, you probably won't find it. Add to that the fact that this is an exponentially increasing disease. Say everyone has unprotected sex with 7 different people in a ten year period. If one person has it, he/she will have only transmitted it to 7 people in those ten years. Now, say 6 million have it, that would give me 42 million cases in those ten years. Now, the actual population model is much more complex, but you can see the trend. If you want to argue numbers, come with something a little stronger.

AIDS was created in
>GOVERNMENT laboratories, it didnt occur
>naturally.

alright...lets see...if the current age of the HIV virus (pretty accurately dated by mutation) is around 80 years, then this MUST have been engineered in the 1920's. Genetic engineering in the 20's...I think you are a little ahead of yourself here. But, lets assume that it WAS somehow possible. You are going to have to have a virus that was engineered INTO HIV (genetic engineers don't just CREATE...they modify...no one CREATES). The only theory thus far presented (that I've seen) posits that they spliced visna virus (a retrovirus that affects nervous systems) and HTLV-1 (the first retrovirus known to infect humans). Unfortunately, neither of these has enough homology to be the parent of HIV.

And you actually believe
>AIDS just JUMPED species, frum
>APE TO HUMANS? Then, why
>doesnt FIV, which is Feline
>Immune-deficiency Virus, the feline equivalent
>to AIDS, jump to humans
>when cats bite people? Fuck,
>in many countries, they EAT
>CATS, so, you dont think
>nobody has ever eaten a
>cat with Feline AIDS?

yeah...isn't it a shame that mutation isn't doesn't work in a such a way that all possible mutations will necessarily happen. Besides, you are leaving out something VERY important...which is that SIV actually shares a genus with us (it actually goes deeper than that...but this should be enough to dismiss your babble).

Why did so many
>gays who were involved in
>the Hepatitis B vaccination in
>New York in the 1970's,
>die frum AIDS after the
>Hepatitis B vaccine was administered
>in Manhattan? Why did AIDS
>appear in Africa after vaccines
>were introduced which basically wiped
>out small pox and polio?
>Small pox disappears, AIDS appears...hmmm.

Lets see...I'm on the list for vaccination for an STD...stands to reason that I might have more than one STD, no? The fact is, the geography of the vaccination campaigns does not correspond to the locations of the early centers of AIDS (with the exception of New York City, which is a relatively large city, you know). I mean, just because there were vaccines in Africa and AIDS in Africa hardly links the two. You are talking about a 12million square mile continent, you know.

>Whuteva, close your eyes and
>plug your ears, be blind
>and deaf to the real
>facts.

I would say the exact same thing to you. Talk about the blunting of Occam's razor.

  

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undaground_ish
Charter member
755 posts
Tue Feb-13-01 02:21 PM

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37. "Okay genuis"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

First of all, i NEVER said AIDS was ONLY spread frum a monkey biting a Human. So how do i have "misconceptions" of how AIDS is spread? My initial argument was about the ORIGIN of AIDS. Queston4 said that theres is PROOF that the African green velvet monkey had long carried the HIV virus. That is BULLSHIT. And yes, that is whut they SAID when AIDS was discovered. That is the EXPLANATION they gave as to HOW AIDS originated. Of course now, within the last few years, they have done away with that "theory" and now say it "jumped" species frum chimpanzees to Humans. Now, there is absolutely NO WAY for ONE person to become infected by a Chimpanzee, infect maybe 7 people, and then that ultimately lead to 50 MILLION PEOPLE becoming infected. Yes, it could happen, but that would take MORE than 20 years, which is when the majority of AIDS cases have been reported. Again, im sayin, there would have HAD to be MORE than just one person initially infected. Thats a BIG IF, and a BIG chance, sayin, IF EVERYBODY has unprotected sex with 6 or 7 people. If that is the case, the way you state it, and ONE person has it, transmits it to 6 or 7 people and 42 million people became infected in 10 years, then, there should be more like, 84 million people with it NOW. But, that isnt the case. Therefore, your theory is flawed. You say my theory is flawed, but yet, you basically are going on a VERY BIG "IF" and "CHANCE". Well you know whut, *IF* i play the lottery ONE MILLION times, theres a *CHANCE* i might win. Now, first of all, there is NO GUARANTEE that having unprotected sex with sumone who is HIV Positive will infect YOU. I'll give you two examples. Eazy E died of AIDS, but yet, his wife NEVER TESTED POSITIVE for HIV. Another one is Magic Johnson, who is HIV positive, and his wife NEVER TESTED POSITIVE for HIV. (Oh and, whut ever happened to the 5-10 year life expectancy when you contract HIV? How long has Magic been HIV positive)? So, obviously, there is not a 100% guarantee that you will contract HIV if you sleep with sumone infected. All these "theories" about how AIDS is spread are going on a BIG IF and CHANCE, not FACT. *IF* sumone infected has sex with XX amount of people, *IF* an infected drug user shares his needle with XX amount of people, *IF* sumone recieves a blood transfusion that is contaminated with HIV and then spreads it to more people. EVERY PERSON infected with the virus would have to have sex or share a needle with A LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE for it to spread this rapidly, A VERY LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE, and most of these people would HAVE to be VERY SEXUALLY PROMISCUIOUS. Now, as far as the man who "died" of AIDS in 1959, the ONLY way they "found" that out, as you stated, was becus they went BACK, looked at his blood samples they had saved, examined the blood, and then "concluded" that he died of AIDS. That sounds a little suspect, how they KNEW to go back and SPECIFICALLY check HIS blood, sounds a little strange to me. And, NONE of these "scientists" can even say HOW the virus mutated and "jumped" species, they just say it DID. Whuteva. Theres no point in arguing with you, becus you believe one thing and i believe another, nuthin you say is going to change my mind, and im sure nuthin i say will change yours. But you see, i AM OPEN-MINDED, you are not. I did believe that AIDS occured naturally at one point, but with the things i have learned within the last 5 years, i have since changed my mind. You basically believe there is NO WAY at all for AIDS to have been man-made. Fuck it, we'll just agree to disagree.




"My grandmother always tol me Jason, beware ov ur surroundings/ Ya friends ya countin on could also be ya drownin/ She said life is jus a journey and we all on ships/ So get sum ownership, before you end up, unda the ocean ov wasted talent/ Where the coulda shoulda people sit an mope/ My ambition reflects success to my ol school folx/ Jus keep ya head up/ Its got ta get betta, becus its written/ I know sumtimes it seems the negativity wont let up"--Planet Asia




  

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standard deviant
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Tue Feb-13-01 02:31 PM

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39. "RE: Okay genuis"
In response to Reply # 37


          

I got a meeting to get to, so I can't do this justice now...but know that your post will be dismantled before the night is over.

Does anyone else smell something?....

  

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undaground_ish
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Tue Feb-13-01 03:35 PM

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41. "Oh no!!!"
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

You mean i have to wait until tonite b4 you dismantle my post with youre superior knowledge on AIDS? Shut the fuck up, Simon says, SHUT THE FUCK UP. I may not have given "concrete proof" that AIDS is man-made, but my response on #15 shows that there is enough evidence and doubt to warrant an AIDS is man-made theory. There was substancial evidence in that post and its funny how you just pushed it aside sayin i was just "regurgitating" whut i stated in my previous post, but #15 presents it much better than i did in my first post. You can reply with any bullshit you want, but if you say my case prooves nuthin, you can say the same thing about your argument, becus you also have NO "concrete proof" it occured naturally, meaning, it is not a prooven FACT.




"My grandmother always tol me Jason, beware ov ur surroundings/ Ya friends ya countin on could also be ya drownin/ She said life is jus a journey and we all on ships/ So get sum ownership, before you end up, unda the ocean ov wasted talent/ Where the coulda shoulda people sit an mope/ My ambition reflects success to my ol school folx/ Jus keep ya head up/ Its got ta get betta, becus its written/ I know sumtimes it seems the negativity wont let up"--Planet Asia


  

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QuestOn4
Member since Aug 08th 2003
39 posts
Tue Feb-13-01 04:25 PM

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44. "Dog..."
In response to Reply # 41


          

when you fly off da handle like that, you're not helping yourself.

"SHUT THE FUCK UP!"

?

Surely you're a better debater than that.

----Initiating shutdown sequence----
---Deactivating Soul Brother Prototype: "Quest"---

The Collective is:

Vex Bliss
La Note
Nuru
Quest

http://www.womb.cjb.net

AIM: QuestOn4

  

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standard deviant
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Tue Feb-13-01 08:09 PM

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53. "RE: Oh no!!!"
In response to Reply # 41


          

I may
>not have given "concrete proof"
>that AIDS is man-made,

nope...you haven't even shown that it is POSSIBLE. Remember, your theory requires the genetic engineering of a disease in the 1920's...not possible. Furthermore, it requires the existance of parent viri...none exist. If you want to propose a possible theory, you are going to have to meet some minimum requirements. There are some huge gaps here.

but
>my response on #15 shows
>that there is enough evidence
>and doubt to warrant an
>AIDS is man-made theory. There
>was substancial evidence in that
>post and its funny how
>you just pushed it aside
>sayin i was just "regurgitating"
>whut i stated in my
>previous post, but #15 presents
>it much better than i
>did in my first post.

Yes, #15 is much more eloquent...but that theory has been responded to by proxy. If it will make you feel better, I'll go kill it now.

>You can reply with any
>bullshit you want, but if
>you say my case prooves
>nuthin, you can say the
>same thing about your argument,
>becus you also have NO
>"concrete proof" it occured naturally,
>meaning, it is not a
>prooven FACT.

aight, even if I grant this (which I won't }>), I'll rest on Occam's razor for a while. Where is the logical inconsistency in my position? Where is the GAP of information in my explanation? The fact of the matter is what I've presented is PLAUSIBLE while what you've presented is merely entertaining.

  

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spirit
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Sun Mar-04-01 03:31 AM

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82. "RE: Oh no!!!"
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

>I may
>>not have given "concrete proof"
>>that AIDS is man-made,
>
>nope...you haven't even shown that it
>is POSSIBLE. Remember, your
>theory requires the genetic engineering
>of a disease in the
>1920's...not possible.

where is your documented evidence that the first AIDS cases were in the 1920s? Cite to a source.

Thoughtfully yours,

Spirit

http://www.theamphibians.com - fuck it, why not? i only hate one of those guys

http://www.mp3.com/miscellaneousflux - click for instant audio gratification

http://mp3.washingtonpost.com/bands/in_shallah.shtml
- b-boy soul music for the world to
uprock to...

http://mp3.washingtonpost.com/bands/miscellaneous_flux.shtml (Flux's "Sad Sunshine" is currently an editor's pick at http://www.washingtonpost.com/mp3)

"Quit acting like a bitch, 99.99999% of the people can see that you're an idiot." - OKP october33 ripping a hole in someone

"Put on a Mobb Deep record. Take a shot everytime you hear 'Nigga'. Two shots everytime you hear QBC/41st Side/Queensbridge. Three shots everytime you hear 'gat' or any other nickname for a gun. If you make it to the third track alive, call 911, and go get your stomach pumped..." - OKP DiscoDJ teaching the kids about the dangers of mixing alcohol and Mobb Deep

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

  

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standard deviant
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Sun Mar-04-01 06:15 AM

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87. "RE: Oh no!!!"
In response to Reply # 82


          

>where is your documented evidence that
>the first AIDS cases were
>in the 1920s? Cite to
>a source.

alright...I'll give you some sources. In fact, rather than having you run to your local library, I'll even find websites for you:



this one notes the work that puts the virus in the 30's (I misspoke when I said 20's):
http://www.ama-assn.org/special/hiv/newsline/cdc/020200g2.htm

this is the original NYT article:
http://darwin.dsm.fordham.edu/ejs/bio/articles/020200aids-origin.html

this one tries to link HIV/SIV split around 300 years ago:
http://www.ama-assn.org/special/hiv/newsline/cdc/112700g6.htm

and there are innumerable sources that indicate the first recorded instances of infection were in the 50's. If you are interested in that aspect, feel free to search for "AIDS origins" or something of that sort.


  

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standard deviant
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Tue Feb-13-01 07:28 PM

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49. "RE: Okay genuis"
In response to Reply # 37


          

For lack of time, I'll grant all the shit about green monkeys...there are legitimate problems with that theory. But the rest:

Now, there
>is absolutely NO WAY for
>ONE person to become infected
>by a Chimpanzee, infect maybe
>7 people, and then that
>ultimately lead to 50 MILLION
>PEOPLE becoming infected. Yes, it
>could happen, but that would
>take MORE than 20 years,
>which is when the majority
>of AIDS cases have been
>reported.

Ummm...remember what has been said about needle usage (for vaccinations or anything else)? I think it is pretty well established that there was needle recycling in the presence of a blood-borne disease. That will spread the disease from one to many in as little as a few hours. Oooops...

Those people have sex, have more shots, have children, and suddenly the numbers are staggering.

Again, im sayin, there
>would have HAD to be
>MORE than just one person
>initially infected. Thats a BIG
>IF, and a BIG chance,
>sayin, IF EVERYBODY has unprotected
>sex with 6 or 7
>people. If that is the
>case, the way you state
>it, and ONE person has
>it, transmits it to 6
>or 7 people and 42
>million people became infected in
>10 years, then, there should
>be more like, 84 million
>people with it NOW. But,
>that isnt the case.

As I said, the ACTUAL population model is more complex (people don't stay in the same place with the same lifestyle, people die, people at risk to contract the disease are generally geographically and socio-economically similar, meaning some of the people they infect would already have it, testing and sterilization standards have changed drastically in the past 20 years, etc). There is no big IF (until we get to the conspiracy point of view...but more on that later).

Well you
>know whut, *IF* i play
>the lottery ONE MILLION times,
>theres a *CHANCE* i might
>win. Now, first of all,
>there is NO GUARANTEE that
>having unprotected sex with sumone
>who is HIV Positive will
>infect YOU. I'll give you
>two examples. Eazy E died
>of AIDS, but yet, his
>wife NEVER TESTED POSITIVE for
>HIV. Another one is Magic
>Johnson, who is HIV positive,
>and his wife NEVER TESTED
>POSITIVE for HIV. (Oh and,
>whut ever happened to the
>5-10 year life expectancy when
>you contract HIV? How long
>has Magic been HIV positive)?
>So, obviously, there is not
>a 100% guarantee that you
>will contract HIV if you
>sleep with sumone infected.

Serious misunderstanding of statistics, and glaring logical flaw again. Yes, you MIGHT win the lottery (chances, about 1:1000000000000); yes you only MIGHT contract HIV from having unprotected sex or sharing a needle with an infected person (chances, nearly 1:1). Do you see the difference? I suppose because something happens to magic and eazy, that makes it standard, right? I mean, magic played basketball and made hella money, so if I play basketball I'll make hella money too. Eazy rapped to make his fortune, so if I rap, I'll get PAID. God, I WISH it was that easy. You give me two standouts and claim that disproves the statistics...but that is the nature of statistics: it isn't a yes/no question, it is a most-likely/least-likely question. Can you have sex with an infected person for the rest of your life and not contract the disease: yes. Can you contract the disease and not die from it: yes. Chances of that happening: about 1 in the number of atoms in the universe (thats a 1 with 79 zeros after it, by the way).

Now, as
>far as the man who
>"died" of AIDS in 1959,
>the ONLY way they "found"
>that out, as you stated,
>was becus they went BACK,
>looked at his blood samples
>they had saved, examined the
>blood, and then "concluded" that
>he died of AIDS. That
>sounds a little suspect, how
>they KNEW to go back
>and SPECIFICALLY check HIS blood,
>sounds a little strange to
>me.

OK...you act as if there are no medical records. I find out there is a thing called AIDS (which at this point, isn't a world-wide pandemic). Because it is a virus, which generally has a "patient zero", I'm interested in when and where it originated. I look at the medical records, and I find among the "unexplained deaths" a man who in 1959 died of "a complete lack of immune-system response"...sounds kinda like the thing I'm looking for. Furthermore, there are samples of his blood (taken specifically BECAUSE it was a mysterious death...you don't think they generally keep blood from random assholes around for 30 years, do you?), so I guess I'll do some test. Well, what do you know, this guy has my disease!!! What is strange about that? It happens all the time with diseases other than AIDS.

Even if you don't believe that, the mutation rate of a virus does not lie. It is verified that the mutation rate of viri is dependant on their age (DNA viri and RNA viri have different age dependancies, but they both have it). Given that HIV is an RNA virus, I can relatively precisely predict its "birth" based on its current rate of mutation. This is no different than predicting the age of a specimen based on the radioactivity of elements (carbon, uranium, etc.) of elements in them. I suppose your going to tell me next that carbon dating (within its accepted boundaries ie. its half-life) is bunk too, huh?

Mutation dating isn't as precise as carbon dating because biology isn't as precise as physics, but they BOTH are verified means of dating.

And, NONE of these
>"scientists" can even say HOW
>the virus mutated and "jumped"
>species, they just say it
>DID.

Ummm...that is the nature of mutations...they just HAPPEN. This isn't the first (or last virus) to jump species. Ehrlichiosis, for instance jumped species from canines (or possibly horse and cattle) to humans (first EVER human case reported in 1954). Growth hormones have jumped species from genetically modified plants to various bacteria (THAT shit is scary...you know what is in your intestines? Thats right, bacteria...which may be genetically altered by your food). If you want still more information pointing to species jumping, look for an article in the NYT (11/30/99) called "New Book Challenges Theories of AIDS Origins".

But you see, i
>AM OPEN-MINDED,

Very much so...can't refute the logic, but still insist that it is incorrect.

>you are not.

Look, as far as I can tell, there are two ways to make decisions: by faith/sprituality and by logic. Both are equally valid, depending on your point of view. I'm not going to accept that AIDS is man-made on faith/sprituality because my spirituality doesn't tell me that. At that point, I'm open to AIDS being man-made, but I'm going to need rigorous logic to prove it. If you want to buck years of research, that is fine, but the burden of proof is on YOU...and so far you aren't overcoming it.

  

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QuestOn4
Member since Aug 08th 2003
39 posts
Tue Feb-13-01 05:06 AM

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17. "no...you're not too bright."
In response to Reply # 12


          

I typed a whole post, and it got deleted.

*SIGH*

Also, someone (in another post further down on this thread) suggested that it was likely the WHO's "vaccinations" were responsible for the spread of HIV in Sub-Saharan Africa.

Hmm...so let's take a look. You've got a population infected with a bloode-borne disease that NOBODY knows about, and you introduce needles to that population? Not good. The WHO can't monitor what happens to the hypodermic needles after they use them; they probably just toss them somewhere...not smart.

20 or so years later, you have the current situation.


SD didn't mention the Feline Immunodeficiency virus thing you brought up...

It speaks volumes on how much you know about health and how viruses are spread that you could even compare the two. Just because one animal can carry a virus doesn't mean an animal of a different species could. The thing is, there are extremely close similarities between humans and apes. In order for it to be able to grow in humans, there would take significantly fewer mutations/adjustments for a disease which affects monkeys to jumps species to humans.



----Initiating shutdown sequence----
---Deactivating Soul Brother Prototype: "Quest"---

The Collective is:

Vex Bliss
La Note
Nuru
Quest

http://www.womb.cjb.net

AIM: QuestOn4

  

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LexM
Charter member
28342 posts
Tue Feb-13-01 05:41 AM

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22. "but my question is"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

(just out of curiosity) How is it that we have virtually eliminated other "natural" diseases just by bettering our hygiene/living standards or finding vaccines (e.g. cholera, dysentery, tuberculosis, malaria etc.) and we cannot easily figure out how to stop a virus that (supposedly) originated in a monkey???

I certainly don't have all the facts on either side about AIDS being manmade/natural--and there are definitely good arguments on both sides on this post--but given the government's history (Tuskeegee experiment, Agent Orange, Gulf War Syndrome, ad nauseum) I'm not willing to disregard the idea that AIDS is a manmade virus.

L.


"There are no atheists in foxholes" (c) Any Given Sunday

I <3 Freestyle!!

"And for once, I want to live for the stars that came before me/And for the ones/That will never have the opportunityto connect" ~~presyzion

"if and when blind, you will hear/drops of water reflecting off your skin/
the subtle bounces magnified into drum pounding/gateway splitting, roaring and consuming, yet soothing/echos of your losses" ~~jesmar

"and my own fears now/are not that i値l die without money or land/but that i値l die without this pen in my hand/and god bless this man, as i speak spoken words/cuz i may die broke/but i値l be broke and heard." ~~RatpackSlim

"how can she sing/holy songs/'bout baby jesus/and mary/and not come/and save me from choking/on sweet youth mixed with mildew/that keeps clinging to my memories/cause this ain't the first time/grandma forget to save me and/my momma forgot to save me.../just always said "jesus wants you to save your flowers"/but my jesus forgot to save me too" ~~beyond_levels

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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standard deviant
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1206 posts
Tue Feb-13-01 05:50 AM

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23. "RE: but my question is"
In response to Reply # 22


          

>(just out of curiosity) How is
>it that we have virtually
>eliminated other "natural" diseases just
>by bettering our hygiene/living standards
>or finding vaccines (e.g. cholera,
>dysentery, tuberculosis, malaria etc.) and
>we cannot easily figure out
>how to stop a virus
>that (supposedly) originated in a
>monkey???

You are comparing vastly seperate diseases. HIV/AIDS bears little resemblance to anything you have listed. On the other hand, bettering hygiene/living standards does help. You'll note that the populations most effected by HIV are the generally the poorest (or most underground). "Safe(r)" sex, clean needles, etc. are all proven to decrease risk.

  

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QuestOn4
Member since Aug 08th 2003
39 posts
Tue Feb-13-01 06:07 AM

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25. "and my answer would be..."
In response to Reply # 22


          

>(just out of curiosity) How is
>it that we have virtually
>eliminated other "natural" diseases just
>by bettering our hygiene/living standards
>or finding vaccines (e.g. cholera,
>dysentery, tuberculosis, malaria etc.) and
>we cannot easily figure out
>how to stop a virus
>that (supposedly) originated in a
>monkey???


I can answer that in two parts.

First off, we haven't eliminated any of those diseases, they're just not common where you and I live because of vaccinations. Tuberculosis affects the homeless and people with depressed immune systems, and malaria is still prevalent in places where there are warm climates (it's spread by mosquitos). Dikembe Mutombo had it earlier this year.

If you know how vaccinations work, you know that vaccinations are just weakened strains of viruses. Once that virus is introduced into your immune system, your immune system overruns it, and you become immune from that disease again; you can't have chicken pox twice, you can't have measles twice.

Once you've had a viral infection and get over it, your body becomes resistent to that virus again. The reason you can get the flu and colds repeatedly (both are caused by viri) is that there are dozens of strains of those viri.

That technique wouldn't work with HIV, because the virus attackes your immune system directly. It would be akin to letting someone breach security who doesn't intend to steal anything, just kill all the guards. HIV robs your body of the ability to ward off diseases. AIDS results when another disease (such as a common cold) come in, and overrun the depleted immune system.

Essentially, a vaccine for AIDS would do nothing more than introduce the virus into their bloodstream, which is exactly what you don't want to happen.

Secondly, while monkeys and humans are similar, there's no way to predict how an AIDS treatment that would be effective on a monkey (and none have been to date) would react in a human body. Also, viruses can mutate, so if you throw something at it, it may work once, but they have the capacity to become resistent to
medicines.

All viruses are tricky, AIDS is one of the trickiest.

----Initiating shutdown sequence----
---Deactivating Soul Brother Prototype: "Quest"---

The Collective is:

Vex Bliss
La Note
Nuru
Quest

http://www.womb.cjb.net

AIM: QuestOn4

  

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LexM
Charter member
28342 posts
Tue Feb-13-01 09:16 AM

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29. "thanks for your opinions n/m"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

"There are no atheists in foxholes" (c) Any Given Sunday

I <3 Freestyle!!

"And for once, I want to live for the stars that came before me/And for the ones/That will never have the opportunityto connect" ~~presyzion

"if and when blind, you will hear/drops of water reflecting off your skin/
the subtle bounces magnified into drum pounding/gateway splitting, roaring and consuming, yet soothing/echos of your losses" ~~jesmar

"and my own fears now/are not that i値l die without money or land/but that i値l die without this pen in my hand/and god bless this man, as i speak spoken words/cuz i may die broke/but i値l be broke and heard." ~~RatpackSlim

"how can she sing/holy songs/'bout baby jesus/and mary/and not come/and save me from choking/on sweet youth mixed with mildew/that keeps clinging to my memories/cause this ain't the first time/grandma forget to save me and/my momma forgot to save me.../just always said "jesus wants you to save your flowers"/but my jesus forgot to save me too" ~~beyond_levels

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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peoke7

Tue Feb-13-01 06:05 AM

  
24. "RE: All reports"
In response to Reply # 7


          

If you can name one medical report that claim the HIV virus was carried by the green velvet monkey, I will name three that will denounce that theory. It has been proven that if you even inject the Green velvet monkey with the virus, their system will not acknowledge the disease. The theory that Africans are barbaric enough to participate in beastiality is a European concept that his lived far too long. In fact, it was the Europeans who started this practice to begin with. I have documents that state the AIDS virus was concocted as a joint experiment between American and Russian scientists in Ft. Dietrich Maryland in the late 70's. The point was to rid the earth of people of color, along side with imprisonment of Black Males, police brutality, etc. The funny part is people would rather believe that a black man would have sex with a monkey, than believe that the same people who have colonized the world in their image, murdered numerous races and generations of people and animals, who currently police where we live, stolen every religion or spiritual believe known to us as a people, mocked it, reinvented it for their benefit, than believe their is a conspiracy. Which simply means to conspire.
>verify that the HIV virus has
>long been carried by African
>green monkeys.
>
>Wherever the first ape-to-human transmittal would've
>been, that woulda been the
>place with the highest cases
>of it. So it's ground
>zero, AND there's no weaponry
>to fight it. If AIDS
>was carried in monkeys in
>India, the same thing would
>happen.
>
>Also, sex isn't the only way
>AIDS can be transmitted. But
>since you wanna go there...
>
>
>In general, black folks in US
>cities have higher instances of
>teenage pregnancy.
>
>FOllow me now...
>
>That would imply somewhere that young
>black people are not protecting
>themselves, which as we know,
>is the easiest way to
>get AIDS.
>
>You disagree?
>
>It's easier to look for a
>scapegoat than it would be
>to hold you own people
>accountable.
>
>If you wanna take it THERE...
>
>
>It's only a conspiracy if a
>few people know. When it's
>public knowledge, then it's not.
>So let's suspend our common
>sense and suppose AIDS was
>manmade...black folks would still have
>it within their power to
>protect themselves, as they know
>how it is transmitted.
>
>
>
>----Initiating shutdown sequence----
>---Deactivating Soul Brother Prototype: "Quest"---
>
>
>The Collective is:
>
>Vex Bliss
>La Note
>Nuru
>Quest
>
>http://www.womb.cjb.net
>
>AIM: QuestOn4



  

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standard deviant
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Tue Feb-13-01 07:59 AM

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26. "RE: All reports"
In response to Reply # 24


          

Once again:
"sweet merciful crap" -- Homer Simpson
"The question is not whether you are right or wrong, sir. You are not even in the conversation." -- Carl Sagan

The
>funny part is people would
>rather believe that a black
>man would have sex with
>a monkey

Seriously, when you come, come with something that has actual basis. NO ONE (except your radical redneck, no knowlege of anything, just looking for another reason to believe he's alright) proposes that the species jump occured from sex. Sexual transmission isn't the only means to contract HIV (or SIV, as the case may have been)

>I have documents that state the
>AIDS virus was concocted as
>a joint experiment between American
>and Russian scientists in Ft.
>Dietrich Maryland in the late
>70's. The point was
>to rid the earth of
>people of color, along side
>with imprisonment of Black Males,
>police brutality, etc.

Really? Lets see 'em. This is the first time I've heard there was JOINT development between Americans and Russiansat Ft. Dietrich--generally said to be where the virus was "created" around 1969 (Americans and Russians...hehehe...two groups who, at the time, wouldn't even spit in each others directions, much less exchange scientists. Remember that whole Cuban missile crisis thingie? How about the space race?). In fact, the document you are most likely referring to is commonly taken WAY out of context (to the point that it hardly even resembles the original document). Quoting David Gilbert: The WHO article that is generally pointed at to prove HIV was engineered "is not primarily about retroviruses ; it is not at all about engineering new viruses; it never discusses making hybrids; and it is absolutely not about making a virus to destroy the human immune system. Anyone who takes the time to look at the original will find that it details a number of existing viruses that cause various illnesses in humans and other mammals...All the listed viruses were related to already recognized illnesses; most are not retroviruses; none is a retrovirus that affects humans; and none is a suspect in any of the proposed scenarios for HIV-splicing.

  

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standard deviant
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Tue Feb-13-01 08:09 AM

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28. "RE: All reports"
In response to Reply # 26


          

ooops...I left out something important. There is NO way that the virus is only as old as the late 70's. The mutation rate points to the virus being ~80 years old. There was HIV in the US in 1968, it was in England and Norway in '59. Kinda hard to engineer a virus that already exists, huh?

And lastly, GENETIC ENGINEERS DO NOT CREATE, THEY MODIFY. If your proposal is that HIV was engineered, there have to be parent viri. No plausible parent viri have ever been proposed.

  

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spirit
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Sun Mar-04-01 03:43 AM

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83. "you missed the point..."
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

>ooops...I left out something important.
>There is NO way that
>the virus is only as
>old as the late 70's.
> The mutation rate points
>to the virus being ~80
>years old. There was
>HIV in the US in
>1968, it was in England
>and Norway in '59.
>Kinda hard to engineer a
>virus that already exists, huh?

you are so eager to prove the point, you are ignoring certain possibilities...

Possibility: What if people who had an interest in eliminating people of color and homosexuals _discovered_ this virus which is quite deadly and introduced the virus to these populations through some means? Take infected blood samples and inject them into prostitutes under the guise of giving immunizations, for instance. The existence of the tuskegee experiment (another case of folks infecting black folks with an existing disease) slightly militate in favor of this possibility.

THINK WIDER.

Do you refuse to accept the premise that there are ANY people on earth evil enough to deliberately introduce a virus to populations they wish to destroy?


>
>And lastly, GENETIC ENGINEERS DO NOT
>CREATE, THEY MODIFY. If
>your proposal is that HIV
>was engineered, there have to
>be parent viri. No
>plausible parent viri have ever
>been proposed.

Again, you are missing possibilities. The pre-existing virus could have been introduced to uninfected populations through numerous means...

ever read how colonialists infected Native Americans with smallpox by giving them blankets used by people who died from that disease?

Thoughtfully yours,

Spirit

http://www.theamphibians.com - fuck it, why not? i only hate one of those guys

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Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
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standard deviant
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Sun Mar-04-01 05:54 AM

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86. "RE: you missed the point..."
In response to Reply # 83


          

>you are so eager to prove
>the point, you are ignoring
>certain possibilities...

I think you miss your own point here. I am arguing the specifics of this particular post...in which he DOES claim that the disease was invented.

If you would have read further in the thread, you would have found me saying that it IS possible that it was found and exploited, but still IMPOSSIBLE that it was created.

>THINK WIDER.

Fine...READ NARROWER. Please.

>Do you refuse to accept the
>premise that there are ANY
>people on earth evil enough
>to deliberately introduce a virus
>to populations they wish to
>destroy?

Of course not...as before I'll just remind you that there is a burden of proof that is not being met.

  

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QuestOn4
Member since Aug 08th 2003
39 posts
Tue Feb-13-01 08:08 AM

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27. "HERE you go..."
In response to Reply # 24


          

Who said a black man slept with a monkey?

Paranoia.


----Initiating shutdown sequence----
---Deactivating Soul Brother Prototype: "Quest"---

The Collective is:

Vex Bliss
La Note
Nuru
Quest

http://www.womb.cjb.net

AIM: QuestOn4

  

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LexM
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Tue Feb-13-01 09:17 AM

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30. "I hear u...thanks...n/m"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

"There are no atheists in foxholes" (c) Any Given Sunday

I <3 Freestyle!!

"And for once, I want to live for the stars that came before me/And for the ones/That will never have the opportunityto connect" ~~presyzion

"if and when blind, you will hear/drops of water reflecting off your skin/
the subtle bounces magnified into drum pounding/gateway splitting, roaring and consuming, yet soothing/echos of your losses" ~~jesmar

"and my own fears now/are not that i値l die without money or land/but that i値l die without this pen in my hand/and god bless this man, as i speak spoken words/cuz i may die broke/but i値l be broke and heard." ~~RatpackSlim

"how can she sing/holy songs/'bout baby jesus/and mary/and not come/and save me from choking/on sweet youth mixed with mildew/that keeps clinging to my memories/cause this ain't the first time/grandma forget to save me and/my momma forgot to save me.../just always said "jesus wants you to save your flowers"/but my jesus forgot to save me too" ~~beyond_levels

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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DivineCipher

Tue Feb-13-01 07:51 PM

  
50. "RE: All reports"
In response to Reply # 7


          

what reports? whose reports?, point me to several without "an agenda" as you say.......

----------
DivineCipher-www.divinecipher.com

  

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Ylana

Tue Feb-13-01 09:51 PM

  
64. "A bit more"
In response to Reply # 7


          

>>In general, black folks in US cities have higher instances of teenage pregnancy.
That would imply somewhere that young black people are not protecting themselves, which as we know, is the easiest way to get AIDS.

You disagree?>>

Of course I do. What exactly are "you" implying when you emphasize that "black people are no protecting themselves"? Are "we" to assume that "other" people are? I would most certainly hope not! Let us remember that women who seek out abortion (as opposed to full-term pregnancies) are most likely to be young, white and unwed.

"We live the now for the promise of the infinite" --Mos Def

"I'm tryin' to soar to altitudes unknown to man, woman or the most agile of birds" --yours truly

"your people first. a quiet strength. the positioning of oneself so that observation becomes reaction, where study is preferred to night life, where emotion is not seen as a weakness. love for self, family, children and extensions of self is beyond the verbal"
--Haki R. Madhubuti

  

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QuestOn4
Member since Aug 08th 2003
39 posts
Wed Feb-14-01 02:35 AM

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67. "You took what I said out of context..."
In response to Reply # 64


          

but I'm not surprised.

>>>In general, black folks in US cities have higher instances of teenage pregnancy.
>That would imply somewhere that young
>black people are not protecting
>themselves, which as we know,
>is the easiest way to
>get AIDS.
>
>You disagree?>>
>
>Of course I do. What exactly
>are "you" implying when you
>emphasize that "black people are
>no protecting themselves"? Are "we"
>to assume that "other" people
>are? I would most certainly
>hope not!

If the reason this thread was started was to debate the nature of the virus that causes AIDS, and how it affects a disproportionate amount of black folk, there would also have to be a correlation between the disproportionate amount of black women who have HIV (which, as you seem to be conveniently forgetting, is spread the same way babies are made). You are denying that teenage pregnancy is a problem in the black community? There are a large number of unwanted pregnancy in black America, which implies that folks are either using protection wrong, or not using it AT ALL.

Which, you may or may not know, lends itself to the spread this disease we're discussing.

I'm not implying anything. I'm SAYING that a population of people of people who do not protect themselves sexuallly, are ESPECIALLY susceptible to being victims of diseases spread through sex, as HIV is.

That says nothing about black people, other than black people don't protect themselves.

Let us remember
>that women who seek out
>abortion (as opposed to full-term
>pregnancies) are most likely to
>be young, white and unwed.

And this has what to do with my statement?

I never said white women don't get pregant. Proportionally, though, teenage pregnancy is greater in black and Hispanic communities. What does abortion have to do with anything? If you got pregnant, that means that you've been fucking and bodily fluids have been exchanged, and that if your partner has ANY STD, you'll likely have it as well.

Abortion is neither here nor there.

Funny. Neither is your argument.

----Initiating shutdown sequence----
---Deactivating Soul Brother Prototype: "Quest"---

The Collective is:

Vex Bliss
La Note
Nuru
Quest

http://www.womb.cjb.net

AIM: QuestOn4

  

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Solarus
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78. "By looking at the comment..."
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

she is implying that "teenage pregnancy" does not occur at among white women at the same rate because the child is aborted. This has EVERYTHING to do with your discussion. She is implying that white women have just as much unprotected sex as black women.

Just FYI.

PEace
Solarus

"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus


____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

  

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standard deviant
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1206 posts
Sat Mar-03-01 10:45 AM

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81. "RE: By looking at the comment..."
In response to Reply # 78


          

teenagers that get abortions have to be pregnant first, hence they are already in the teenage pregnancy category. This is why most surveys of this rate include three numbers: teenage pregnancy rate, teenage birth rate, and teenage abortion rate.

  

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QuestOn4
Member since Aug 08th 2003
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Fri Mar-02-01 06:58 AM

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71. "up!"
In response to Reply # 1


          

----Initiating shutdown sequence----
---Deactivating Soul Brother Prototype: "Quest"---

Writers. Smartasses. Funky Children.

The Collective is:

Vex Bliss La Note Nuru Quest

http://www.womb.cjb.net

AIM: QuestOn4

  

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Mr_Sarcastic_tha_Antagonist

Fri Mar-02-01 07:35 AM

  
73. "RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?"
In response to Reply # 1


          

Whether this is a conspiracy or not remains to be seen. The fact is, is that aids is a major problem problem in Africa and attention definetly needed to be brought to it. People are dying at an unimaginable rate from the disease. The biggest problem with the spread of the disease, seems to be that the people are unwillingly to take the steps necessary to the prevent its spread due to old tribal laws and such. In the times article they talked about how, "if a woman was to ask her husband to where a condom, she is considered a whore and might be beaten or severly punished." They also talked about how no one wants to call it aids they want to pretend its something else. The reality is that they are going to have to take necessary precautions such as wearing condoms, and stop pretending that this disease does not exist. Because it will kill a whole country, region, people, whatever point is multitudes of people will continue to die if something is not done.

  

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QuestOn4
Member since Aug 08th 2003
39 posts
Sat Mar-03-01 08:25 AM

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77. "but then you get into some deeper stuff"
In response to Reply # 73


          

like people's customs. Those things don't lend themselves to slowing down the spread, which was the point I made a few times already.

It's not like the affected people share the same culture or even the same language...so finding a universal way to communicate the precautions that need to be taken is a daunting task.

  

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LexM
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28342 posts
Mon Feb-12-01 04:17 AM

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2. "don't know if it's a conspiracy"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

per se...but something definitely needs to be done.

I suppose that whether or not you believe it's a "conspiracy" has a lot to do with whether or not you think AIDS is a manmade creation vs. a naturally developed disease, among other things.

I think that more "developed" countries do have an obligation to do what they can (make more drugs available cheaper, e.g.) to help stop the spread of AIDS in Africa. I would hate to see a good portion of the Motherland's population wiped out in 20 years.

Then again, like Quest said, some of the conditions in Africa today are not helping efforts to curb the disease. I've read several articles (from African news sources) detailing the cultural, economic, and intellectual barriers to AIDS education/treatment on the continent.

peace

L.


"There are no atheists in foxholes" (c) Any Given Sunday

I <3 Freestyle!!

"And for once, I want to live for the stars that came before me/And for the ones/That will never have the opportunityto connect" ~~presyzion

"if and when blind, you will hear/drops of water reflecting off your skin/
the subtle bounces magnified into drum pounding/gateway splitting, roaring and consuming, yet soothing/echos of your losses" ~~jesmar

"and my own fears now/are not that i値l die without money or land/but that i値l die without this pen in my hand/and god bless this man, as i speak spoken words/cuz i may die broke/but i値l be broke and heard." ~~RatpackSlim

"how can she sing/holy songs/'bout baby jesus/and mary/and not come/and save me from choking/on sweet youth mixed with mildew/that keeps clinging to my memories/cause this ain't the first time/grandma forget to save me and/my momma forgot to save me.../just always said "jesus wants you to save your flowers"/but my jesus forgot to save me too" ~~beyond_levels

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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guerilla_love
Charter member
8273 posts
Mon Feb-12-01 07:27 AM

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3. "not a conspircy per se, so much as a"
In response to Reply # 0


          

blatant disregard for human life

i believe that aids was created in either some biological weapons experiments or as an attempted vaccine. the people who created it introduced it into the african population without much explanation or clearance and it backfired fast.


==**peace**==

"Words without work is not enough." Sizzla

There is more danger in the word exotic than in a sharpened machete --me

"The logic of divide and rule is still valid today." Capleton

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.....

"Who need fossil fuel when the sun ain't goin' nowhere"
- Amiri Baraka

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standard deviant
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1206 posts
Mon Feb-12-01 07:33 AM

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4. "RE: not a conspircy per se, so much as a"
In response to Reply # 3


          

And why do you believe that? What reason and/or fact supports your conclusion? What about other immunodeficiency viri (like FIV)?

  

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Ylana

Mon Feb-12-01 09:29 AM

  
6. "RE: not a conspircy per se, so much as a"
In response to Reply # 3


          

>>the people who created it introduced it into the african population without much explanation or clearance and it backfired fast.

Did it backfire? Or go exactly as planned?

"We live the now for the promise of the infinite" --Mos Def

"I'm tryin' to soar to altitudes unknown to man, woman or the most agile of birds" --yours truly

"your people first. a quiet strength. the positioning of oneself so that observation becomes reaction, where study is preferred to night life, where emotion is not seen as a weakness. love for self, family, children and extensions of self is beyond the verbal"
--Haki R. Madhubuti

  

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QuestOn4
Member since Aug 08th 2003
39 posts
Mon Feb-12-01 11:58 AM

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8. "Oh, I see. You're one of THOSE."
In response to Reply # 6


          


>Did it backfire? Or go exactly as planned?


First off, it would be extremely reckless for someone to introduce a disease so slow and so indiscriminant with plans of destroying a specific target.

AIDS takes months to years to intensigy from HIV, so why wouldn't your alleged conspirators find a quicker bug to kill the Sub-Saharan Africans? Why not Anthrax or Ebola? They'd spread like wildfire, and the infected would be dead in mere days.

secondly, AIDS could jump out of the population of the target group too easily. All there needs to be is an exchange of bodily fluids, and BAM! The disease has affected someone that's not in the Sub-Saharan African population you think they want to destroy.

You're theory isn't backed up by facts or logic.

Just a hunch.

I'll go with logic and facts every day over someone's gut feeling.

----Initiating shutdown sequence----
---Deactivating Soul Brother Prototype: "Quest"---

The Collective is:

Vex Bliss
La Note
Nuru
Quest

http://www.womb.cjb.net

AIM: QuestOn4

  

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standard deviant
Charter member
1206 posts
Mon Feb-12-01 12:54 PM

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9. "RE: Oh, I see. You're one of THOSE."
In response to Reply # 8


          

hehehe...stole my thunder...

nice post. if the rest of you aren't convinced, there are plenty of other indicators...

  

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Ylana

Mon Feb-12-01 03:06 PM

  
10. "A 'Rose' by any other name..."
In response to Reply # 8


          

>>AIDS takes months to years to intensigy from HIV, so why wouldn't your alleged conspirators find a quicker bug to kill the Sub-Saharan Africans? Why not Anthrax or Ebola? They'd spread like wildfire, and the infected would be dead in mere days.

And as strong as the African presence is in Europe, so would millions of other folks.

>>secondly, AIDS could jump out of the population of the target group too easily. All there needs to be is an exchange of bodily fluids, and BAM! The disease has affected someone that's not in the Sub-Saharan African population you think they want to destroy.

Anyone who exchanges bodily fluids with African people are willing contributors to the reproduction of African offspring--why not?

>>You're theory isn't backed up by facts or logic.
>>I'll go with logic and facts every day over someone's gut feeling.

And your facts are from known sources untainted by biases or intentional distortion? Come on Slim! "Facts and Logic" have been tools historically used by folks who rearrange truths to fit their perceptions of how the world should be. "Facts and logic"--I've noticed--works incredibly well on the massess content with "scientific" explanations to sleep better at night...

Although:
Some folks have the ability to smell bullshyt well after the air freshener has been sprayed (oooh, I think I've got a new sig to add to my list )

"We live the now for the promise of the infinite" --Mos Def

"I'm tryin' to soar to altitudes unknown to man, woman or the most agile of birds" --yours truly

"your people first. a quiet strength. the positioning of oneself so that observation becomes reaction, where study is preferred to night life, where emotion is not seen as a weakness. love for self, family, children and extensions of self is beyond the verbal"
--Haki R. Madhubuti

  

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lightyeargroover
Charter member
2493 posts
Mon Feb-12-01 03:42 PM

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11. "RE: A 'Rose' by any other name..."
In response to Reply # 10


          

it's a man made disease, that much is true. throughout history there has never been a disease that specifically attacks the immune system. Look up Aids on the boards search, and you might run into an interesting piece layed out by one of the okayposters...

  

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fflood

Mon Feb-12-01 11:45 PM

  
14. "my two cents..."
In response to Reply # 11


          

hey all. yeah, this is a topic i've been over a couple times. and after travelling in West Africa for five months, i've heard some more than disturbing accounts.

1) It is widely 'known' throughout several West African countries that the World Health Organization brought over tons of smallpox vaccinations mysteriously around the time that AIDS appeared. This also correlates to the hepatitis vaccines that were given homosexuals in the US. the propaganda? Africans have questionable relationships with monkeys, and gays...well, they are just nasty.

2) while i was in Ghana in 1999, i talked to someone who knew of a woman who had a very high position in a hospital. WHO was offering tons of free vaccinations for something. She suggested that instead of spending all of this money on free vaccinations, why not use the money to train people to manufacture it? this was hastily disagreed to, and when she persisted, WHO went over her head, got her fired, then moved the vaccinations in. not extremely conclusive, but very suspect, nonetheless.

3) there are schools in Ghana where diplomats children report to different areas for vaccinations than Africans.


I will say at this point that i have no documentation of these things, and they can all be chalked up to hearsay, but definitely it is food for thought. and back home, here in the US...

1) the legacy of the Tuskegee experiment, where 399 black men were deliberately allowed to suffer the ravages of syphillis for the sake of watching how it progresses in humans, was conducted for the course of *40 years* by the American Medical Association without any feelings of wrongdoing. I was alive while this was happenning (the whistle was blown in 1972. search 'bad blood' and 'tuskegee experiment' for details). and this continued through the civil rights movement, and the nazi nuremburg trials...with no remorse. went blind and died. there is a documentary that even interviews AMA officials who are still outraged that this 'very legitimate and important study' was halted. my point being, this country has had no problem in the recent past using biowarfare on us in a 'legitimate' open fashion.

2) and as for the sloppy targeting factor...i really do think that it is possible for some ultra conservative nut to really think that homosexuals will have a contained existence, as much as black people. this may be a big oops. one which is being BLATANTLY overlooked. any affluent, technologically advanced and *civilized* country would make eradicating a plague a priority, as opposed to building a stronger military and prison industrial complex. where by the way, is another death sentence where AIDS is concerned. the 13th ammendment outlaws slavery EXCEPT when a person is incarcerated. therefore, the US has slave labor death camps. but i digress. where was i...sloppy targeting. anybody who lives in nyc can tell you that we were sprayed with malathion last year. a friend of mine from out west gasped when he heard that. he was like 'they USED to dust crops with that!' look it up. malathion is a KNOWN carcinogen, KNOWN to ravage the immune system. i know i've been sick like 4 times this winter. and i know mad sick people too. why would this be allowed? why would protesters be ignored? is it the concentrations of people of color? this country has no qualms displaying its 'depopulation' policies of people of color and third world countries. Puerto Rican women represent the highest percentage of sterilized women on the planet. in 1980something, it was 35%. sterilization programs continue in India (of men too), Africa, Cambodia...it goes on.

again, i offer pieces of a puzzle. something to sit with. i don't have the fingerprints on the petri dish. but an interesting amalgamation of facts, and things i have heard.

i wish you all well, take care.

p & l
fflood


  

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QuestOn4
Member since Aug 08th 2003
39 posts
Tue Feb-13-01 05:08 AM

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18. "the saying goes"
In response to Reply # 14


          

hearsay is the shannel of information of the paranoid.

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The Collective is:

Vex Bliss
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Nuru
Quest

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AIM: QuestOn4

  

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QuestOn4
Member since Aug 08th 2003
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Tue Feb-13-01 05:29 AM

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21. "um, that shoud say..."
In response to Reply # 18


          

"channel."

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Nuru
Quest

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AIM: QuestOn4

  

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fflood

Tue Feb-13-01 08:02 PM

  
52. "RE: um, that shoud say..."
In response to Reply # 21


          


yes, i did acknowledge the hearsay from the facts.

care to acknowledge the facts? (the legacy of the tuskeegee experiment, and the interesting timing of the AIDS outbreak with shipped american smallpox vaccines)

optimism is a positive trait to have, i must say. i do not consider myself to be a raving paranoid. but i do conduct myself as one living in a country where i as a person of african descent have always been considered to be an undesirable element. that, is not paranoid, that is realism, that is survival. we fill the prisons, two thirds on non-violent charges. and still the numbers climb, and nothing is done. i don't need to go on about the reality of institutionalized racism....but do you have faith that AIDS being manufactured to eradicate us is *impossible*? i would hope it is not so, but i would not rule it out. if you do feel that it 'couldn't happen, not in america', then my brother i politely and respectfully make the statement, the reality is, we are at war. conduct yourself accordingly.

go to a search engine and look up 'tuskeegee experiment' or the book 'bad blood'. read it. then lets talk. lets talk facts, and more than plausible reality.


  

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QuestOn4
Member since Aug 08th 2003
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Wed Feb-14-01 02:20 AM

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66. "We're not arguing America's history..."
In response to Reply # 52


          

this debate was centered around AIDS posibly being manmade. Your taking America's long sordid history into account, but all your logic thus far has been: America has been/is fucked up, Black people have AIDS, therefore America is responsible for Africans and African Americans who have AIDS.

It's easy to use nationalism to hide behind when your logic is faulty.

----Initiating shutdown sequence----
---Deactivating Soul Brother Prototype: "Quest"---

The Collective is:

Vex Bliss
La Note
Nuru
Quest

http://www.womb.cjb.net

AIM: QuestOn4

  

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spirit
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Sun Mar-04-01 03:54 AM

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84. "you are NOT reading..."
In response to Reply # 66


  

          

>this debate was centered around AIDS
>posibly being manmade. Your taking
>America's long sordid history into
>account, but all your logic
>thus far has been: America
>has been/is fucked up, Black
>people have AIDS, therefore America
>is responsible for Africans and
>African Americans who have AIDS.

that is an incorrect summary of the post you are replying to...the argument was actually "white Americans have engaged in the deliberate infection of Af-Am populations before, Af-Ams are disproportionately affected, thus HIV _may be_ another case of white Americans deliberately infecting Af-Ams with a pre-existing disease". At least TRY to see the other side of the argument, that is the hallmark of intellectual discourse.

>
>It's easy to use nationalism to
>hide behind when your logic
>is faulty.

It is easy to discount someone with an opinion different from yours by saying that their logic is faulty. TRY LISTENING (or here on the Net, *reading carefully*) and actually considering the points on the other side.

Thoughtfully yours,

Spirit

http://www.theamphibians.com - fuck it, why not? i only hate one of those guys

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uprock to...

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"Quit acting like a bitch, 99.99999% of the people can see that you're an idiot." - OKP october33 ripping a hole in someone

"Put on a Mobb Deep record. Take a shot everytime you hear 'Nigga'. Two shots everytime you hear QBC/41st Side/Queensbridge. Three shots everytime you hear 'gat' or any other nickname for a gun. If you make it to the third track alive, call 911, and go get your stomach pumped..." - OKP DiscoDJ teaching the kids about the dangers of mixing alcohol and Mobb Deep

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

  

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standard deviant
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Sun Mar-04-01 05:48 AM

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85. "RE: you are NOT reading..."
In response to Reply # 84


          

actually, his use of "manufactured" is pretty ambiguous; and, to me, the context of the statement makes it "sound" (look) like he is saying it was created.

  

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QuestOn4
Member since Aug 08th 2003
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Tue Feb-13-01 05:21 AM

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19. "riiggh..."
In response to Reply # 11


          

but just because it hasn't existed before doesn't mean someone created it in a lab.

The Bubonic plague came out of nowhere, ravaged all of Europe and killed half it's population. Up until that time, it had never been a problem. So was it created in a lab?

Ebola was around LONG before a lot of people knew about it.

----Initiating shutdown sequence----
---Deactivating Soul Brother Prototype: "Quest"---

The Collective is:

Vex Bliss
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Nuru
Quest

http://www.womb.cjb.net

AIM: QuestOn4

  

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standard deviant
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Tue Feb-13-01 05:25 AM

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20. "RE: riiggh..."
In response to Reply # 19


          

Not to mention that immunodefficiency viri have existed in plenty of other species before. Also, HIV isn't the first retroactive RNA virus. What is being asserted is similar to saying that fish didn't exist until there were sharks.

  

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DivineCipher

Tue Feb-13-01 07:19 PM

  
48. "RE: Oh, I see. You're one of THOSE."
In response to Reply # 8


          

Ebola is still very prominent throughout Sub-Saharan Africa.....

----------------------------------------
DivineCipher-www.divinecipher.com

  

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undaground_ish
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Tue Feb-13-01 12:56 AM

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15. "RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.rense.com/ufo4/manmade.htm

Is HIV A Manmade Virus
Designed To Kill Blacks
And Gays?
By Alan Cantwell, Jr., M.D. (AlanRCan@aol.com)
and Kwame Ingemar Ljungqvist, Solleron, Sweden
From Robert Sterling <Robalini@aol.com>
Editor- The Konformist www.konformist.com
8-18-99

In the fall of 1986 the Russians shocked the world by claiming that AIDS originated as a result of U.S. germ warfare. Although this accusation quickly disappeared with Glasnost, the idea that AIDS is a man-made disease continues to be a common belief among African Americans, as well as conspiracy theorists. According to a New York Times poll (October 29, 1990), thirty percent of New York City blacks actually believe AIDS is an ethno-specific bioweapon designed in a laboratory to kill black people.

Although young white gay men were the first victims of what was originally known as "gay-related immune deficiency syndrome" (GRID), African Americans are now disproportionately afflicted with AIDS. Black Americans make up 12% of the U.S. population but account for 35% of AIDS cases. More than half of all women with AIDS (55%) are African American; and nearly 60% of pediatric AIDS cases are black. AIDS is now the leading cause of death for African American men between the ages of 35 and 44.

The idea that AIDS is a man-made disease is the theme of books such as, AIDS & The Doctors of Death (1988) and Queer Blood (1993) by Dr. Alan Cantwell; Emerging Viruses (1996) by Dr. Leonard Horowitz; AIDS Tabu (1992, in Swedish) by Kwame Ingemar Ljungqvist, and others. These studies have been largely overlooked and ignored by the mainstream media and medical journals.

Creation of a Super Germ and Ethnic Bioweapons

As evidence that HIV could be a man-made virus, researchers cite testimony dating back to 1969 when Dr. Donald MacArthur, a Department of Defense spokesman, appeared before a U.S. Congressional Hearing on Chemical and Biological Warfare and declared that biowarfare experts could develop a genetically engineered "super germ" that would be able to effectively destroy the human immune system. He estimated that molecular biologists could create this new infective microorganism within 5 to 10 years. A decade later, in 1979, the first gay AIDS cases were reported to the CDC in Atlanta, Georgia.

In a scientific paper entitled "Ethnic Weapons," which appeared in the November 1970 issue of The Military Review, Swedish geneticist Carl A. Larsen openly discussed biotechnologic advances that would allow human cells to be "selectively quenched." Scientists had already detected enzymatic differences in the composition of cells from various racial and ethnic groups, and theorized how these differences could be exploited to create bioweapons. For example, an enzyme deficiency in Southeastern Asian populations could make them more "susceptible to a poison to which Caucasoids are largely adapted." Larsen admitted that "surrounded with clouds of secrecy, a systematic search for new incapacitating agents in going on in many laboratories." Now, almost 30 years later, one can only speculate on the ethno-specific (and even sex-specific) bioweapons that have been developed in these biowarfare laboratories.

Recent studies indicate HIV is a particularly dangerous virus for certain racial groups. In 1997 Stephen O'Brien and Michael Dean reported on "AIDS-resistance genes" that enable European and Americian-Caucasians to better resist HIV. Other ethnic groups, such as African -Americans and East Asians have much less resistence. And black Africans have absolutely no protective genes against the AIDS virus.

Vaccine Programs and the Outbreak of HIV

Some researchers believe HIV was "introduced" into African blacks through the World Health Organization's smallpox eradication program in the late 1970s. In Magic Shots, Allan Chase writes that during the years 1966-1977, the WHO utilized 200,000 people in forty countries-most of them nondoctors-and spent $300 million to vaccinate people with 2.4 billion doses of smallpox vaccine.

On May 11, 1987, The London Times, one of the world's most respected newspapers, published a front-page story entitled "Smallpox vaccine triggered AIDS virus." The story suggested that African AIDS was a direct outgrowth of the WHO smallpox eradication program. Robert Gallo, the world's foremost AIDS researcher, was quoted as saying: "The link between the WHO program and the epidemic is an interesting and important hypothesis. I cannot say that it actually happened, but I have been saying for some years that the use of live vaccines such as that used for smallpox can activate a dormant infection such as HIV." Despite the importance of these allegations, the smallpox story was killed and never appeared in any major U.S. newspaper or magazine.

The Origin of the Green Monkey Theory

Until recently, the African green monkey theory of AIDS origin (as proposed by Robert Gallo) has been accepted as fact. In his book, Virus Hunting: AIDS, Cancer and the Human Retrovirus (1991), Gallo explains the source of his theory. "Amazingly, in the early part of my research on AIDS (early 1983) I was visited by Ann Guiduci Fettner, a freelance writer who told me emphatically that the origins and epicenter of the epidemic were in a river basin near Lake Victoria. She also stated she believed the virus came from African green monkeys, apparently due to her experiences in central Africa."

Fettner, along with microbiologist William Check, authored The Truth About AIDS, one of the first books published on the epidemic. According to notes on the book jacket, Fettner had served as health advisor to the government of Kenya. However, in their book, published shortly before Gallo's discovery of HIV in 1984, nothing is recorded about Fettner's experiences in Africa. Green monkeys are never mentioned, and there is no suggestion that AIDS originated in Africa. On the contrary, Fettner and Check conclude that "AIDS started as an American disease."

Writing in Covert Action Bulletin, Robert Hatch claims Gallo worked extensively with lab monkeys in the two decades before AIDS erupted. He was a project officer of "a massive virus inoculation program that began in 1962 and ran until at least 1976, and used more than 2,000 monkeys. The monkeys were injected with everything from human cancer tissues to rare viruses, and even sheep's blood, in an effort to find a transmissible cancer. Many of these monkeys succumbed to immunosuppresion after infection with Mason-Pfizer monkey virus, the first immunosuppressive retrovirus, a class of viruses that included the immunodeficiency AIDS virus."

During the 1970s, laboratory viruses were commonly forced from one species of animal into another. In these experiments the so-called "species barrier" was routinely breached, and new viruses were created. During the 1977-1978 period ( and three years before AIDS became "official"), the Special Virus Cancer Program (sponsored by the National Cancer Institute where Gallo worked) produced 60,000 liters of cancer-causing and immunosuppressive viruses, according to Hatch.

Animal Virus Contamination and New "Human" Viruses

Contamination of experiments with various animal viruses is a constant threat in viral laboratories. Gallo himself has made serious errors in identifying so-called human viruses that were later shown to be animal virus contaminants. One notorious example was his 1975 discovery of a "new" and "human" HL-23 virus. This virus eventually proved to be three contaminating ape viruses (gibbon-ape virus, simian sarcoma virus, and baboon endogenous virus). To this day Gallo claims he has no idea how these three animal viruses contaminated his research.

Max Essex, a Harvard veterinarian and a leading proponent of the green monkey theory, has also erred in virus identification. In 1986 Essex and his colleague Phyliss Kanki announced their discovery of a "new" AIDS virus (HTLV-4) found in the blood of healthy West Africans. In 1988, Essex's new "human" HTLV-4 virus turned out to be a monkey virus that accidentally contaminated Essex's lab. The source of the monkey virus contamination was traced to blood samples from a monkey that was experimentally infected by an AIDS-like virus at the New England Regional Primate Research Center in Southborough, Massachusetts.

To further complicate matters, a 1988 report from a team of Japanese molecular biologists concluded there was no genetic relationship between the African green monkey virus and the AIDS virus.

In February 1999, the green monkey theory was debunked in a media blitz. Scientists now cite new genetic research which points to a nearly extinct species of African chimpanzee as the origin of HIV. No mention was made of the Japanese researchers whose genetic research was ignored for over a decade.

Chimps, Monkeys, and the Gay Hepatitis B Experiment (1978-1981)

Blaming monkeys and chimpanzees for AIDS also conveniently obscures the possible link between the gay hepatitis B vaccine experiments (1978-1981) and the outbreak of AIDS in gay men shortly after the experiment began. In addition, laboratory chimpanzees were used in the development, testing and manufacture of the orginal hepatitis B vaccine. Because animal virus contamination has plagued noted researchers like Gallo and Essex, this also raises the possibility that a HIV-like chimp virus could have "jumped species" during these vaccine trials in gay men.

The gay hepatitis B vaccine experiment immediately preceded the decimation of American homosexuals. In this experiment, a cohort of over a thousand young gays was injected with the vaccine on multiple occasions at the New York City Blood Center in Manhattan during the period from November 1978 to October 1979. Similar gay experiments, in which an additional 1,402 gay men were injected, were also conducted in San Francisco, Los Angeles, Denver, St. Louis and Chicago, beginning in 1980 and ending in October 1981.

Three months after the hepatitis experiment began in New York City, the first cases of AIDS in Manhattan were reported to the CDC. The first San Francisco AIDS cases appeared in that city in September 1980, six months after the hepatitis B experiment started there. In June 1981 the AIDS epidemic became "official."

In an unusual move, all the gay blood specimens submitted in the hepatitis vaccine experiment were retained by the Blood Center for further study. When this blood was later retested for HIV antibodies, it was discovered that HIV was first "introduced" into the gay male population of New York City sometime around the year 1978-1979, the same year the hepatitis B experiment began.

In 1980, one year before the AIDS epidemic became official, twenty percent of the Manhattan men in the vaccine trials were positive for HIV! In 1980 there were no reported cases of AIDS in Africa; and the fact that 20% of the New York City gay men in the experiment were HIV-positive in that year suggests that the virus was not "introduced" from Africa. More likely is the possibility that HIV was introduced into the gay community via the hepatitis B experiment.

Kaposi's Sarcoma ("Gay Cancer") and a Second "Emerging Virus" in AIDS

The purple-colored skin tumors of Kaposi's sarcoma (KS) on the bodies of gay men quickly became the scarlet letter signifying AIDS. Preceding the epidemic, and during the years 1973-1976 there were no reported cases of KS in young men in New York City. After the hepatitis B experiment the incidence of "gay cancer" skyrocketed. The first proven AIDS-related case of KS occurred in 1979. By 1985 the incidence of KS in "never-married men" in New York City increased 1850 times; and in San Francisco the rate of KS increased over 2000 times!

Early in the epidemic Gallo linked "gay cancer" to Central Africa because KS is a common endemic tumor in that area. However, unlike gay American men with KS who were HIV-positive, the African cases of endemic KS tested HIV-negative.

In the past few years a new Kaposi's sarcoma-associated virus (KSHV) is now thought to be the cause of this cancer. The virus has supposedly been traced to a monkey tumor virus, known as herpes virus saimari. This virus is also thought to be transmitted separately from HIV, meaning that gay men in the late 1970s were infected with not one but two monkey and chimp-originating viruses. How this supposed feat of nature was accomplished has not been explained.

Blaming Africa for American AIDS

The idea that AIDS in the U.S. originated in Africa is so firmly entrenched that it is extremely difficult to argue against that view. However, there is no convincing evidence (aside from the pronouncements of leading government-employed virologists) that AIDS in gay Americans started in Africa. Furthermore, the idea of a black African heterosexual disease suddenly transforming itself into a white homosexual disease in the U.S. is a biological and sexual impossibility.

In the Epidemiology of AIDS (1989), Thomas Quinn and Jonathan Mann write that the first confirmed African cases were diagnosed in European hospitals in 1983. This is four years after the first gay cases were diagnosed in New York City!

To prove that AIDS is not an old disease in Africa, a team of scientists led by J.W. Carswell tested the blood of old, sexually-inactive people living in geriatric homes in Kampala, Uganda's largest city and the epicenter of AIDS in Africa. The elderly people's blood was tested against 716 healthy, sexually-active adults living in the same city. Fifteen percent of the healthy people were positive for HIV antibodies, but none of the elderly people tested positive. This 1986 study indicated HIV had not been in Uganda for a long time, as AIDS experts were proclaiming. The team concluded: "The results presented here do not support the previous suggestions that the virus might have originated in Uganda; on the contrary, if interpreted correctly, they indicate it arrived in the country only recently."

Some scientists have proclaimed that HIV has existed in Africa for decades, centuries, or even millenia. In 1989 another scientific team investigated HIV antibodies infection among the semi-nomadic San bushpeople living in the Central Kalahari desert in Botswana. The Sans are the oldest race living in Africa. The team tested 150 San adults. No one tested positive for HIV.

HIV infection and sexual preference

Further compounding the supposed African origin of AIDS are reports of differing "strains" of HIV which influence infectivity, depending on sexual preference and the type of sexual penetration. The American strain of HIV is subtype B, while the common African strain is subtype D. If AIDS in gays came directly from Africa in the same time period, as is widely believed, one might suspect that the strains would be similar, but they are not.

According to Robert Biggar and Philip Rosenberg, the risk for HIV transmission in the U.S. is not as high for vaginal intercourse as it is for anal sex. And the rate of transmission with vaginal intercourse is thought to be twice as high when HIV-infected men have sex with women than when HIV-infected women have intercourse with susceptible men. Other research indicates that strains common in Africa and Asia tend to be more easily transmitted heterosexually.

Biowarfare and Covert Experimentation

Sadly, the U.S. government and its scientists have a well-documented history of secret experimentation on humans, particularly minorities.

Physicians and scientists allied to biowarfare research are sworn to secrecy and silence. In the U.S. "top secret" and classified medical experimentation continues to be promoted by the CIA, the CDC, the Department of Defense, the military, and by leading medical institutions.

In A Higher Form of Killing (1982), Robert Harris and Jeremy Paxman expose many of these medical abuses perpetrated against unsuspecting civilains by the U.S. military and the CIA during the 1950s and 1960s. For example, in the covert "MKULTRA" mind-altering experiments, the victims were lured to hotel rooms for sexual encounters with prostitutes, and were drugged and monitored by CIA agents. The authors write: "In August 1977 the CIA admitted to no less than 149 subprojects, including experiments to determine the effects of different drugs on human behavior; work on lie-detectors, hypnosis and electric shock; and the surreptitious delivery of drug-related materials. Forty-four colleges and universities have been involved, fifteen research foundations, twelve hospitals and clinics, and three penal institutions."

Human Radiation Experiments and Government Abuse

With the recent release of classified documents by President Bill Clinton, details have been revealed about unethical and inhumane radiation experiments conducted during the Cold War years between 1944 and 1974.

Over 4,000 covert experiments conducted by the Atomic Energy Commission, the Department of Defense, the Department of Health Education and Welfare, the Public Health Service (now the CDC), the National Institutes of Health, the Veterans Adminstration, the CIA and NASA, are documented in The Human Radiation Experiments: The Final Report of the President's Advisory Commitee, published in 1996 by Oxford Press.

Some of these inhumane and previously classified experiments include: The secret injections of 18 Americans with plutonium, one of the most toxic radioactive substances known to man, during the years 1945-1947. Exposing more than 100 Alaskan villagers to radioactive iodine during the 1950s.

Feeding 49 retarded and institutionalized teen-agers radioactive iron and calcium in their cereal during the years 1946-1954.

Exposing about 800 pregnant women in the late 1940s to radioactive iron to determine the effect on the fetus.

Injecting 7 newborns (six were black) with radioactive iodine

Exposing the testicles of more than 100 prisoners to cancer-causing doses of radiation.

Exposing almost 200 cancer patients to high levels of radiation from cesium to cobalt. The AEC finally stopped this experiment in 1974. Administering massive doses of full body radiation to cancer patients hospitalized at the General Hospital in Cincinnati, Baylor College in Houston, Memorial Sloan-Kettering Hospital in New York City, and the U.S. Naval Hospital in Bethesda, during the 1950s and 1960s.

Secret Science and Medical Research

To this day there are no adequate safeguards to protect people from covert government experimentation. Since the mid-1970s we have witnessed the spectacular rise of genetic engineering and molecular biology, as well as the concomitant outbreak of new infectious diseases of obscure origin. Diseases such as AIDS, chronic fatigue syndrome, the "Four Corners" lung disease first discovered on Navajo land, and the emergence of dozens of unprecedented viruses and diseases never before seen on the planet.

Biological warfare programs are now inextricably linked to governments and political agendas. By law, scientists employed in these classified programs cannot speak freely or reveal secrets. By necessity, these scientists must promote the government's disinformation and propaganda programs.

It is well-documented that African Americans have been mistreated in the past as research subjects. Surely it would not be unresonable to suspect that gays would be treated similarly. Is it just a coincidence that when thousands of gay men came out of the closet in the 1970s they would be the first to fall victim to a chimp and a monkey cancer-causing virus that "jumped species"?

Medical science has a long history of medical experimentation and cover-up, and even murder. And the development and testing of designer "super germs" for biological warfare purposes is not a paranoid fantasy.

There is circumstantial evidence pointing to AIDS as a man-made disease. Ignoring this research will not make the idea go away. On the contrary, ignoring this research makes a mockery of medical science as a field of open and honest inquiry.



REFERENCES: (21 references)
1. "Black churches urged to do more in fight against AIDS," by Karen
Robinson-Jacobs, Los Angeles Times, February 21, 1998.
2. Cantwell Jr, A: AIDS & The Doctors of Death: An Inquiry into the Origin of
the AIDS Epidemic. Los Angeles: Aries Rising Press, 1988.
3. Cantwell Jr, A: Queer Blood: The Secret AIDS Genocide Plot. Los Angeles:
Aries Rising Press, 1993.
4. Horowitz LG: Emerging Viruses: AIDS & Ebola. Rockport, MA: Tetrahedron
Publishing Group, 1996.
5. Ljungqvist KI: AIDS Tabu. Stockholm: Carlssons Bokforlag, 1992.
6. Testimony delivered in Washington before a Subcommittee on Appropriations,
House of Representatives, Department of Defense Appropriations for 1970,
on July 1, 1969.
7. O'Brien SJ, Dean M: In search of AIDS-resistence genes. Scientific
American, September 1997, pp 28-35.
8. Chase A: Magic Shots. New York: William Morrow and Company, 1982.
9. Gallo R: Virus Hunting: AIDS, Cancer and the Human Retrovirus. New York:
Basic Books, 1991.
10. Fettner AG, Check W: The Truth About AIDS. New York: Holt, Rinehart
and
Winston, 1984.
11. Hatch R: Cancer Warfare. Covert Action Bulletin 39, Winter, 1991.
12. Connor S: "AIDS science on trial." New Scientist, February 12, 1987, pp
49-58.
13. "Scientist warns of threat from new AIDS virus," by Robert Steinbrook,
Los Angeles Times, February 18, 1988.
14. "Research refutes idea that human AIDS virus originated in monkeys," by
Robert Steinbrook, Los Angeles Times, June 2, 1988.
15. Cantwell Jr A: "The Hepatitis B Vaccine Trials," in Cantwell Jr A: AIDS
& the Doctors of Death: An Inquiry into the Origin of the AIDS Epidemic.
Los Angeles: Aries Rising Press, 1988, pp 65-80.
16. Stevens CE, Taylor PE, Zang EA, et al: Human T-cell lymphotropic virus
type III infection in a cohort of homosexual men in New York City. JAMA
255: 2167- 2172, 1986.
17. Biggar RJ, Burnett W, Mikl J, et al: Cancer among New York men at risk of
acquired immunodeficiency syndrome. International Journal of Cancer 43:
979-985, 1989.
18. Carswell JW, Sewankambo N, Lloyd D, et al: How long has the AIDS virus
been in Uganda? Lancet 1, May 24, 1986, p 1217.
19. Ebbesen P, Osie W, Morgan ET: San people (Bushmen) from the Central
Kalahari Desert found free of antibodies to HIV-1 and HIV-2. Journal of
the Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome 2: 415-416, 1989.
20. Biggar RJ, Rosenberg PS: HIV infection/AIDS in the United States during
the 1990s. Clinical Infectious Diseases 93 (Supplement 1): S219-223, 1993.
21. Harris R, Paxman J: A Higher Form of Killing: The Secret Story of
Chemical and Biological Warfare. New York: Hill and Wang, 1982.

Death, and Queer Blood, both published by Aries Rising Press, PO Box 29532,
Los Angeles, CA 90029, USA. These books can be ordered on the Internet @
Amazon.com, or through Upper Access @ 1-800-356-9315. E-mail address:
alanrcan@aol.com
Kwame Ingemar Ljungqvist is the author of AIDS Tabu, published by
Carlssons Bokforlag, Stora Nygatan 31, 111 27 Stockholm, Sweden. He is the
Director of the Swedish AIDS Group Against Racism (SARA), Sirapsvagen 12,
S-790 43 Solleron, Sweden. E-mail address: kwame.ingemar@stmikael.mora.se




"My grandmother always tol me Jason, beware ov ur surroundings/ Ya friends ya countin on could also be ya drownin/ She said life is jus a journey and we all on ships/ So get sum ownership, before you end up, unda the ocean ov wasted talent/ Where the coulda shoulda people sit an mope/ My ambition reflects success to my ol school folx/ Jus keep ya head up/ Its got ta get betta, becus its written/ I know sumtimes it seems the negativity wont let up"--Planet Asia





  

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standard deviant
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Tue Feb-13-01 02:35 AM

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16. "RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?"
In response to Reply # 15


          

see post 13...

and don't regurgitate, think...

many a logical flaw in these arguements...

  

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lightyeargroover
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Tue Feb-13-01 10:03 AM

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31. "RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?"
In response to Reply # 16


          

i'm waiting for you to point them out.

  

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standard deviant
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Tue Feb-13-01 11:22 AM

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32. "RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?"
In response to Reply # 31


          

Did you READ the several posts that tear this conspiracy theory apart? A short list of logical flaws:

correlation = causation
post hoc ergo propter hoc (after this, therefore because of this)
poisoning the well
ad hoc (at the man...or, in this case, I should probably say The Man)

If you post, someone refutes, and in response to that you merely restate your original claim, that does not ammount to defending your arguement. That ammounts to plugging your ears and saying "I can't hear you...lalalalalalalalalalala".

  

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standard deviant
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Tue Feb-13-01 08:18 PM

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55. "RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?"
In response to Reply # 15


          

actually, fuck it...if we are going to regurgitate, I'll just leave you with something someone else wrote as well:

http://www.caq.com/CAQ58TrackGenocide.html

You'll note that the final conclusion (supported by evidence, no less), is that these conspiracy theories CONTRIBUTE to the spread of the disease...what a shame. Especially for something with no firmer foundation than what has been posted on this board.

While I'm at it, I think you'll benefit greatly from a LONG perusal of this:

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html

See if any of the described fallacies sound even remotely (much less entirely) like the arguements made in the conspiracy theories.

  

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DivineCipher

Tue Feb-13-01 08:56 PM

  
57. "RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?"
In response to Reply # 55


          

>actually, fuck it...if we are going
>to regurgitate, I'll just leave
>you with something someone else
>wrote as well:
>
>http://www.caq.com/CAQ58TrackGenocide.html

what does this prove? who is david gilbert and what is his agenda? who does he represnt?

>You'll note that the final conclusion
>(supported by evidence, no less),
>is that these conspiracy theories
>CONTRIBUTE to the spread of
>the disease...what a shame.
>Especially for something with no
>firmer foundation than what has
>been posted on this board.
>
>
>While I'm at it, I think
>you'll benefit greatly from a
>LONG perusal of this:
>
>http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html


Do you think everything in life is easy explained by logic? or did you reference this article to promote a more "structured" debate ( structure acording to who? structure according to what set of ideals, archtypes or models?).
----------------------------
DivineCipher-www.divinecipher.com

  

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standard deviant
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Tue Feb-13-01 09:07 PM

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61. "RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?"
In response to Reply # 57


          

> Do you think everything in
>life is easy explained by
>logic? or did you reference
>this article to promote a
>more "structured" debate ( structure
>acording to who? structure according
>to what set of ideals,
>archtypes or models?).

As I said before, there two ways to evaluate things: spirit and reason. I have read exactly one post (out of 60) that makes any mention of spirit. If we are going to talk about this using reason, I it's rules should be followed.

If your spirituality tells you HIV is man-made, that is your spirituality, and I will leave it at that.

  

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Ylana

Tue Feb-13-01 09:54 PM

  
65. "Shut 'em down!!!"
In response to Reply # 15


          

*applauding*

"We live the now for the promise of the infinite" --Mos Def

"I'm tryin' to soar to altitudes unknown to man, woman or the most agile of birds" --yours truly

"your people first. a quiet strength. the positioning of oneself so that observation becomes reaction, where study is preferred to night life, where emotion is not seen as a weakness. love for self, family, children and extensions of self is beyond the verbal"
--Haki R. Madhubuti

  

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DivineCipher

Tue Feb-13-01 12:01 PM

  
33. "RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Interesting article from NYT, in light of present discussion......
__________________________________________________________
February 7, 2001
Mutation That Slows H.I.V. May Play a Role in Hepatitis C
By LAWRENCE K. ALTMAN
HICAGO, Feb. 6 Five years ago, scientists discovered that some people had a genetic mutation in their cells that could either protect them against infection from the AIDS virus or significantly slow the course of AIDS.

Today, German scientists reported an odd twist to the mutation story. At the eighth annual retrovirus meeting here, they reported evidence suggesting that the mutation could have a negative effect for people infected with the hepatitis C virus, which causes potentially fatal liver disease.

Further research is needed. But the findings could have potential importance in the epidemiology of hepatitis C infections and the development of anti-H.I.V. drugs directed at the mutation, Dr. Rainer Woitas, the head of the German team from the University of Bonn, said in an interview.

The mutation involves the deletion of part of a gene on the surface of cells. The gene, CCR5, is one of the major receptor sites for the entry of H.I.V.

About 1 percent of Caucasians inherit a double dose of the mutation that usually confers resistance to H.I.V. infection. People who inherit only one dose of the mutation and become H.I.V.-infected often take about two years longer to develop AIDS than infected people without the mutation.

Dr. Woitas, a specialist in internal medicine with a long interest in hepatitis C, came to his findings in an unusual way. After other scientists in the United States and Europe discovered the mutation's effect in H.I.V. in 1996, Dr. Woitas theorized that the mutation might also play a role in hepatitis C.

So he and his colleagues conducted tests to determine the frequency of the mutation among four groups. One group of 153 people had the hepatitis C virus only. A second group of 102 people had H.I.V. only. A third group of 130 people had both infections. A fourth group of 102 people were blood donors with no known infections who were included for purposes of a scientific control.

Dr. Woitas's team confirmed the finding that the double dose form of the mutation protected against H.I.V. infection. But 12 of the 153, or 7.8 percent, in the hepatitis-C-only group had the mutation, and statistical tests showed it was three times more common than expected.

People with the mutation also had levels of hepatitis C virus in their blood about four times higher than in those without the mutation.

People with higher levels of a virus in the blood often fare worse than those with lower levels. But because the German studies were not developed to measure outcomes, Dr. Woitas said that additional studies were needed to document whether people with the mutation fared worse, and that they were under way.

Dr. Woitas theorized that the mutation interfered with the immune system in some unknown way to have an adverse effect on hepatitis C and the protective effect on H.I.V.

The study also led Dr. Woitas to speculate that the immune system might in some cases successfully defend against the hepatitis C virus and lose the antibodies. If so, he said, scientists would need to develop a new test to determine who had been infected with hepatitis C, since current tests screen for the infection by using antibodies to the virus.

Dr. David Ho, the head of the Aaron Diamond AIDS Research Center in Manhattan, said that if an experimental drug was developed to counter the mutation and tested in humans, scientists would have to screen for hepatitis C infection among the recipients to avoid possibly worsening the liver infection.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention also announced a campaign developed to "break the back" of the AIDS epidemic by cutting the number of new infections in half by 2005, largely by identifying Americans who carry H.I.V. but do not know it.

The effort, announced today, is based on the fact that most AIDS infections are spread by people who do not realize they have H.I.V.

The agency believes that if these people knew they were infected, they would be more careful to protect others, and they would also take AIDS drugs that would probably make them less likely to transmit the virus.

Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company


----------------------------------------------------------------
DivineCipher-www.divinecipher.com

  

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Ailyha
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Tue Feb-13-01 12:17 PM

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34. "RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I think one of the biggest reasons why AIDS is such a problem in africa is that it's a 3rd world country and it does not have adequate health care. I just went to a seminar that our vice pres. of the university did called "Virtual Tour of Africa" and it was a slide show of his trek to AFrica. And there were slides of a hospital in the country formerly known as Zaire. Anyway, they don't have enuf needles to give to patients and they have to use needles over and over. And then you have mothers that have been infected who have breast feed their children. It's horrendous that their hospitals are not up to par. There are not enough beds in these hospitals, people are dying in the streets, their water supplies are affected by the disease. What is there to do? No one is upping the challenge to help these hospitals or this country. WE have to sit back and witness the destruction.
Peace
Ailyha
headed for the peace corps when she graduates...it's the least i can do.

Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous. - quote from Good Hair by Benilde Little

"Everybody's got issues, every-stinkin'-body"

WHen you look in my eyes, what do you see?

You like it, I love it... my advice to anyone who asks me for it and not willing to make that change.

2001, i'm really going to let my hair grow out...I guess i need something else to do with it.

During my year long plight of abstinence, my mind is clear and i'm horny as hell!

May 2001 Socialight Roadtrip to New York. We need OkayTourGuides! Email me!!

My Blog. Swing Phi Swing
http://swingbigphi.blogspot.com

My Mommy Blog. The Bourgie Baby
http://bourgiebaby.blogspot.com

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QuestOn4
Member since Aug 08th 2003
39 posts
Tue Feb-13-01 01:02 PM

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36. "Huh?"
In response to Reply # 34


          

>I think one of the biggest
>reasons why AIDS is such
>a problem in africa is
>that it's a 3rd world
>country

Africa isn't a third world country. Africa's a continent. Or maybe you know that, already.

There are not
>enough beds in these hospitals,
>people are dying in the
>streets, their water supplies are
>affected by the disease.

Um, you mean AIDS? It's bloodborne; it can't be spread through the water.


----Initiating shutdown sequence----
---Deactivating Soul Brother Prototype: "Quest"---

The Collective is:

Vex Bliss
La Note
Nuru
Quest

http://www.womb.cjb.net

AIM: QuestOn4

  

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DivineCipher

Tue Feb-13-01 12:35 PM

  
35. "RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Check out this book too Emerging Viruses; AIDS & Ebola; Nature, Accident, or Intentional? by Dr. Leonard Horowitz, DMD, MA, MPH and hit up this site as well http://www.tetrahedron.org/

-------------------------------------------------------
DivineCipher-www.divinecipher.com

  

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undaground_ish
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Tue Feb-13-01 02:28 PM

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38. "RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.boydgraves.com/press/021101.html


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

www.boydgraves.com/press/021101.pdf

February 11, 2001



Contact:

Boyd E. Graves, J.D.

boyded2001@yahoo.com

Attn: Joel 1-785-263-1871



Dr. Robert C. Gallo

Attn: Jerome 410-706-8614



Gallo Confirms Role In Special Virus Program


(Baltimore, MD) In a spirited phone conversation this Sunday evening between Boyd E. Graves, J.D. and "AIDS co-discover", Dr. Robert C. Gallo, Dr. Gallo affirmed his participation in the federal virus program, the Special Virus. Dr. Gallo confirmed his role as a Project Officer which the reports identified. Experts around the world now believe this under reported program to be the birth place of AIDS.

Dr. Gallo was presented a personal copy of the program's "research logic" today after he informed Graves that he had never seen the Flow Chart before.

The world awaits Bob Gallo's renewed leadership, in now seeking review of the Flow Chart and 15 yearly progress reports, of the Hershey Medical Center meetings between 1962 and 1978, that spent $550 Million to make a contagious cancer that selectively kills. Our call for review of this virus development program continues to gain support around the world.



February 12, 2001

Petitioner, AIDS APOLOGY

United States Supreme Court





Download Flow Chart <click here>

(average download time: 2 minutes)







Sign On-Line Petition | Press Releases | Events 2001

Comments | About Boyd "Ed" Graves, J.D.

AIDS Timeline | Special Virus Flow Chart

Contact Us | To Order



  

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QuestOn4
Member since Aug 08th 2003
39 posts
Tue Feb-13-01 03:20 PM

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40. "And this proves? n/m"
In response to Reply # 38


          

----Initiating shutdown sequence----
---Deactivating Soul Brother
Prototype: "Quest"---

The Collective is:

Vex Bliss
La Note
Nuru
Quest

http://www.womb.cjb.net

AIM: QuestOn4

  

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undaground_ish
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Tue Feb-13-01 03:36 PM

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42. "RE: And this proves? n/m"
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

Well, whut have you proved?


"My grandmother always tol me Jason, beware ov ur surroundings/ Ya friends ya countin on could also be ya drownin/ She said life is jus a journey and we all on ships/ So get sum ownership, before you end up, unda the ocean ov wasted talent/ Where the coulda shoulda people sit an mope/ My ambition reflects success to my ol school folx/ Jus keep ya head up/ Its got ta get betta, becus its written/ I know sumtimes it seems the negativity wont let up"--Planet Asia



  

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QuestOn4
Member since Aug 08th 2003
39 posts
Tue Feb-13-01 04:22 PM

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43. "As SD said..."
In response to Reply # 42


          

you repeating yourself over and over, and not dismissing any information presented logically is not arguing. It's plugging your ears and...

Fuck it. You can scroll up.

You posting a site that OBVIOUSLY has an agenda doesn't prove a damn. The Internet is notorious for gving every Joe Schmoe a chance to voice his opinion...why don't you post a link to the anti-Illuminati sites while you're at it?

----Initiating shutdown sequence----
---Deactivating Soul Brother Prototype: "Quest"---

The Collective is:

Vex Bliss
La Note
Nuru
Quest

http://www.womb.cjb.net

AIM: QuestOn4

  

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DivineCipher

Tue Feb-13-01 08:15 PM

  
54. "RE: As SD said..."
In response to Reply # 43


          

what is your agenda?

So far you have disputed almost everything anyone has said with your "facts and logic" arguement against aids being man made or a conspiracy yet in all but your first few posts you have nothing but "regurgitated" the facts, logic, and findings of the very same medical establishment that seeks to profit from all sickness and illness, that is why treatments that actually
work, don't even get FDA clinical trials, because natural effective treatment and cures to diseases, take money out of "Big Medicine's (FDA, NIH, Amer. cancer Assoc., etc)" pockets'.

You may already be familiar, but check out oxytherapries (mixing 35% food grade H202 with distilled water solution) for AIDS, and the logic behind it's effectiveness.

Also check out Dr.Gary Davis, who made a anti-virus serum from goats blood (forgive me if my scietific terminology is off) that actually imporved the health of advanced AIDS cases, and in some cases reduced the HIV virus in the blood to negligible levels, check the article from the Washington Post at http://www.divinecipher.com/drgoat.htm or you can probably find it in the Washington Post Archives. No one has died using his serum even in advanced cases, yet how many AIDS patients have died taking AZT or any other of these cocktail-chemistry set drugs........

These types of effective treatments are being dismissed because of the same facts,logic, and reports that you are speaking of....

--------------------------
DivineCipher-www.divinecipher.com

  

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QuestOn4
Member since Aug 08th 2003
39 posts
Wed Feb-14-01 02:48 AM

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68. "My point was..."
In response to Reply # 54


          

and i'm getting tired of this, but okay.

when you're debating with someone, you take the facts they offer, refute them with other facts or support them with other facts.

What you, Ylana, and a few other folks are doing, is saying you guys are wrong, look at this article on this website, that has nothing to do with what myself or the other cat are saying.

Everytime you post, we post on the scientific innacuracies and inconsistencies of the facts you introduce, and you say we're assholes or question our devotion to black people's plight.

That's bananas. That's not debate, my 6-year old cousin argues that way.


Listen, if you need a reason to believe that black people are shitted on in this world, then you have ample evidence to support that FACT without bringing HIV into the picture. It seems y'all are looking for something to add to the "look at whitey did to us!" list, and while that list is long, you guys have given no real reason why AIDS should be added to that list.


HIV is indiscriminant. It spreads via sexual contact and needles, and takes months to make itself detectable. To release a bug like that into ANY population would be reckless, because it would be impossible to tell who had it without testing EVERYONE.

it's easy to be angry. It's another thing entirely to not let your anger override scientific impossibility and improbability. If you wanted to kill people with a virus, you wouldn't do it with AIDS, because it would get out of hand, and would seep out of the target population to easily.

----Initiating shutdown sequence----
---Deactivating Soul Brother Prototype: "Quest"---

The Collective is:

Vex Bliss
La Note
Nuru
Quest

http://www.womb.cjb.net

AIM: QuestOn4

  

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DivineCipher

Tue Feb-13-01 05:56 PM

  
45. "RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

AIDS is an offshoot of Military and government germ and biological warfare weapons and experiments that had their origins, and were used in 1920's WWI (mustard gas and nerve agents); truth be known the first victims (in the US anyway)of germ and biological warfare were the native americans (with the come of the pilgrims--smallpox, TB, etc).

AIDS is just more sophisticated form of this type of weapon. For example, the so called "Gulf War Syndrome", has been explained away as many, many things, but those who were there know exactly what the deal is, that was some airborne biological weapon (perhaps gas, vapor, mist, etc) that US troops got exposed to.

The battle we fight in this world is Spiritual and anything that will divide, steal, kill, etc (and do it fast) is what the weapon of choice is. AIDS is one things....

-------------------------------------------------
DivineCipher-www.divinecipher.com

  

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QuestOn4
Member since Aug 08th 2003
39 posts
Tue Feb-13-01 06:08 PM

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46. "facts, please?"
In response to Reply # 45


          

----Initiating shutdown sequence----
---Deactivating Soul Brother
Prototype: "Quest"---

The Collective is:

Vex Bliss
La Note
Nuru
Quest

http://www.womb.cjb.net

AIM: QuestOn4

  

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DivineCipher

Tue Feb-13-01 07:12 PM

  
47. "RE: facts, please?"
In response to Reply # 46


          

What kind of proof do you want? I am not saying it is conspiracy, i am not saying AIDS is being purposely directed at anybody. All I am doing is stating know facts: we know that in WWI the both sides used mustard gas and nerve agents, also we KNOW that many of those who did survive such attacks suffered effects that laid dormant in their bodies for a time and reactivated at a later point.

We know that the pilgrims knowingly passed diseases to the Native Americans, through contact and their so called "gifts".

In Vietnam the survivors of such suffered from agent orange exposure, and other unknown, or should I say undisclosed weapons. We all know and perhaps have family members ailing from these the effects of such weapons that we meant to use on the Vietnamese people.

As a result of the Gulf War, many victims returned home in good health, only to later (some much later) to be hit with some mysterious unknown symptoms. if US troops were suffering just from being slightly exposed by handling and adminsitering such weapons, imagine what some of the innocent civilain people of the Gulf are going through after direct exposure. Even today there are people still showing up ( is the US enlisted and former enlisted) with this unexplainable disease, how many years ago was that war?

AIDS, just look at the similarities to the effects of such weapons and agents. After contact with the virus you may not even know you are infected. It may take years to manifest in your body but when it does it works rapidly, usually leading to debilitating neurological conditions at the end, which lead to other health dysfunction.

I am not quite sure what more facts you want, but what have I just written is factual because these things happened and are happening to real people nothing is fictious or far fetched. i am sure you even know some people that are victims of such and find them selves in such cirumstances. Statistics do not always consitute fact, sometimes real people and experiences do.

I am not trying to say there is some conspiracy what I am saying is that it is quite possible and highly likely that HIV and AIDS are man made experiments or weapons gone wrong or acquired by the wrong people who may seek to capitalize on control, pain, and suffering of any anybody not just Blacks, minorities, or gays(amerika has long history of that).......






-----------------------------------------------
DivineCipher-www.divinecipher.com

  

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standard deviant
Charter member
1206 posts
Tue Feb-13-01 07:57 PM

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51. "RE: facts, please?"
In response to Reply # 47


          

Yes, it is convenient that diseases are effective ways of killing people (in some senses more effective than guns and knives because I don't have to be anywhere near you to kill you). That does not make all diseases engineered (or even similar diseases).

Side note: others here have hinted that because drugs are used to treat diseases, AIDS could be concocted or used by drug companies to push their products and get money. In a similar line, lack of food causes death...so I suppose farmers invented hunger in order to sell their crops.

And the symptoms of HIV/AIDS are vastly dissimilar to the examples you mentioned (more dissimilar than similar). Either way, their similarity doesn't ammount to an arguement about their possible connectedness. Dogs and cows both have four legs, teeth, fur, tails (I could go on and on), but they are NOWHERE NEAR connected.

>I am not trying to say
>there is some conspiracy what
>I am saying is that
>it is quite possible and
>highly likely that HIV and
>AIDS are man made experiments
>or weapons gone wrong or
>acquired by the wrong people
>who may seek to capitalize
>on control, pain, and suffering
>of any anybody not just
>Blacks, minorities, or gays(amerika has
>long history of that).......

Highly likely?! For real? What warrants highly likely? I was feeling you all the way up to "quite possible" (because it is). But you are downright lying with that highly likely crap.

  

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DivineCipher

Tue Feb-13-01 08:39 PM

  
56. "RE: facts, please?"
In response to Reply # 51


          

>Yes, it is convenient that diseases
>are effective ways of killing
>people (in some senses more
>effective than guns and knives
>because I don't have to
>be anywhere near you to
>kill you). That does
>not make all diseases engineered
>(or even similar diseases).

I did not say ALL diseases were engineered, you said that...

>Side note: others here have hinted
>that because drugs are used
>to treat diseases, AIDS could
>be concocted or used by
>drug companies to push their
>products and get money.
>In a similar line, lack
>of food causes death...so I
>suppose farmers invented hunger in
>order to sell their crops.

The farmers may not have "invented" it but somehow there sure are a lot of hungry people in america are "denied" food everyday, some working people have to choose between feeding their kids or eating the food themsleves

>
>And the symptoms of HIV/AIDS are
>vastly dissimilar to the examples
>you mentioned (more dissimilar than
>similar). Either way, their
>similarity doesn't ammount to an
>arguement about their possible connectedness.
> Dogs and cows both
>have four legs, teeth, fur,
>tails (I could go on
>and on), but they are
>NOWHERE NEAR connected.


Exactly how are they dissimilar almost all of them have some neurological effects whether they act immedaitely or over a period of time....


>Highly likely?! For real? What warrants highly likely? I was >feeling you all the way up to "quite possible" (because it is). >But you are downright lying with that highly likely crap.

so you are willing to throw out everything i just said just because I said "high likely"?
To me precedence, just like in a court of law (sp?) warrants a statement such as "highly likely", america has tradition of profiting or advancing from inflicting pain, struggle, control suffering. This particluar become apparent in times of war; that is when you see how ruthless america can be. Additionaly, happenings like the Tuskegee exp, agent orange in vietnam, gulf war syn, etc stand as proof. To me precedence warrants that statement, that is who america has shown herself to be....

  

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standard deviant
Charter member
1206 posts
Tue Feb-13-01 09:01 PM

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59. "RE: facts, please?"
In response to Reply # 56


          

>I did not say ALL diseases
>were engineered, you said that...

you're right, you said it is "highly likely that HIV and AIDS are man made", and as corroborating "evidence" you cite mustard gas (not developed as a weapon...in fact found by accident), nerve gas, small pox (naturally occurring), etc. You seem to confuse usefulness as a weapon with probability that it was created by man. Shit, iron is a usefull substance, do I credit man with having created it?

>The farmers may not have "invented"
>it but somehow there sure
>are a lot of hungry
>people in america are "denied"
>food everyday, some working people
>have to choose between feeding
>their kids or eating the
>food themsleves

and that is the farmers' fault, right? Damn the farmers for MAKING people starve! How have we let them get away with this for so long?!

Are you kritiking capitalism or proposing that AIDS was invented...the two are entirely different subjects. (BTW: when was the last time you saw a farmer with fat pockets?)

>Exactly how are they dissimilar almost
>all of them have some
>neurological effects whether they act
>immedaitely or over a period
>of time....

OK...and? Ether has neurological effects, does that put it in the ranks of your list as well? How about mescalin? I suppose flashbacks (a long term neurological effect) are proof that mescalin was man-made. Again, this is like saying that birds and mammals both breath air, therefore I should be able to fly.

>To me precedence, just like in
>a court of law (sp?)
>warrants a statement such as
>"highly likely", america has tradition
>of profiting or advancing from
>inflicting pain, struggle, control suffering.

OK...this may cause doubt, but this is hardly even a step toward proving anything. There are MANY hurdles left to clear before this becomes part of some sort of certainty. Remember, the burden of proof is on you.

Please, please, PLEASE look at the link to requirements of logical arguemenataion (post #55).

And before you tell me there is something wrong with logic: if you want to abandon logic, that is fine...when you do so, for performative consistency, please stop typing letters in any particular order, please stop following rules of grammar, please stop using your computer (infidel machine, built ENTIRELY on those incorragable rules of logic).

  

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DivineCipher

Tue Feb-13-01 09:12 PM

  
62. "RE: facts, please?"
In response to Reply # 59


          

what have you proved? I am not being sarcastic, I am just interested in understanding what you feel you have proven, if anything at all

DivineCipher-www.divinecipher.com

  

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DivineCipher

Tue Feb-13-01 09:01 PM

  
58. "SD, are in the medical profession?"
In response to Reply # 51


          

DivineCipher-www.divinecipher.com

  

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standard deviant
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Tue Feb-13-01 09:03 PM

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60. "actually, I teach..."
In response to Reply # 58


          

physics, but my roommate was a biochemist.

  

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Ylana

Tue Feb-13-01 09:35 PM

  
63. "As presented by whom?"
In response to Reply # 46


          

Facts?...please!

Not this song and dance again *sigh*. Facts (for the most part)are brilliantly (or sometimes not so brilliantly) calculated lies used to manipulate truth...And as far as explanations are concerned--playa--history is all the "fact" we need...Being "different" has made certain folks easy targets from day ONE...The moral of the story is: There is nothing new under the sun--the same bullshyt has been recycled the world-over and tailor-made to fit the time...

...That suit looks "shitty" on some folks...Thank God it's not my style! lol!

"We live the now for the promise of the infinite" --Mos Def

"I'm tryin' to soar to altitudes unknown to man, woman or the most agile of birds" --yours truly

"your people first. a quiet strength. the positioning of oneself so that observation becomes reaction, where study is preferred to night life, where emotion is not seen as a weakness. love for self, family, children and extensions of self is beyond the verbal"
--Haki R. Madhubuti

  

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QuestOn4
Member since Aug 08th 2003
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Wed Feb-14-01 02:59 AM

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69. "It must be fun to talk in empty euphemism."
In response to Reply # 63


          

That you would debate and deny that the presentation of information is important in debate speaks volumes.

yell. Be self-important. Do what you're doing. but you've met to make a valid point, and have said nothing other than stan dev and me are bananas for not agreeing.

Again, i'm new to the Activist board, and if this is how y'all debate shit around here...by questioning people's devotion to their people/not challenging information presented with facts...then this'll be a short stay.

i don't think standard deviant and I are debating whether or not AIDS is good or bad, or whether or not America has a sordid history. But if someone presents information based in half-truths and opinions, that lends itself to misinformation.

I've made no judgements on your person or your motivations, just questioned your logic.

It's a shame the same courtesy couldn't be extended to us.


----Initiating shutdown sequence----
---Deactivating Soul Brother Prototype: "Quest"---

The Collective is:

Vex Bliss
La Note
Nuru
Quest

http://www.womb.cjb.net

AIM: QuestOn4

  

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Ylana

Wed Feb-14-01 05:49 PM

  
70. "*hugs & kisses*"
In response to Reply # 69


          

afterall it is Valentine's Day!

Quest4: I meant no disrespect to you or stan d with the aforementioned post, and I'm sorry that you were offended by my words...You of ALL people should know that one person's words (carelessly tossed about in the midnight hour) does not reflective the sentiments of hundreds in a forum, lol! Please accept this post as an apology for any miscommunication...

"We live the now for the promise of the infinite" --Mos Def

"I'm tryin' to soar to altitudes unknown to man, woman or the most agile of birds" --yours truly

"your people first. a quiet strength. the positioning of oneself so that observation becomes reaction, where study is preferred to night life, where emotion is not seen as a weakness. love for self, family, children and extensions of self is beyond the verbal"
--Haki R. Madhubuti

  

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MADAME X
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Fri Mar-02-01 07:28 AM

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72. "RE: AIDS in Africa: check the herpes vaccination trials?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

clinical trials from the 1970's....

  

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standard deviant
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Fri Mar-02-01 07:44 AM

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74. "RE: AIDS in Africa: check the herpes vaccination trials?"
In response to Reply # 72


          

and what would you have us find in these trials?

  

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MADAME X
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Sat Mar-03-01 07:20 AM

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75. "RE: AIDS in Africa: check the herpes vaccination trials?"
In response to Reply # 74


          

my reasons:

in the late 1970's, HSV (herpes virus) had a high transmission rate in the homosexual community and a number of individuals were solicited for the study. at the same time, in africa, another study was being done, but on a much larger scale bypassing the federal guidelines for testing and approval.

cases began to appear in the early 80's about the disease, which by no accident, the primary populations suffering disportionally were homosexuals and Africans. the government knew about this, but kept quite about it.

it's no accident that HIV has exploded in africa now.

the virus is manufactured, and has been documented in cases going as far back as 1955 by the CDC, this is on record.

no virus, to my knowledge, has a double copy of its genome with two reverse transcriptase enzymes. this is one of reasons the virus replicates so fast after the immune systems t-cells have been killed off upon releasing the virus. one virus has the potential to produce a number of different stains called quasi-species..so the drugs used never really kill of the virus...very smart little thing.

now, who could produce such a thing? who has the money to fund projects like this? who has the largest stockpile of biological agents? USAMRID and the CDC.

i got the info from on high, ph.d level scientists while i was in school. they recite what the book says, but privately....it's another ballgame.


start digging.




  

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standard deviant
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Sat Mar-03-01 07:40 AM

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76. "RE: AIDS in Africa: check the herpes vaccination trials?"
In response to Reply # 75


          

>the virus is manufactured, and has
>been documented in cases going
>as far back as 1955
>by the CDC, this is
>on record.

alright..this is probably the easiest place to start picking. The CDC has records of the virus back in 1955...and your claim is that it is manufactured?! If by "manufactured" you mean it has been engineered, your own dates eliminate that possiblitiy. Genetic engineering of a disease like this BEFORE 55 would be nearly impossible. Add to that the fact that the mutation rate points to origins in the 20's. Even if you disregard all of that, you would have to find parent virii...genetic engineering doesn't CREATE, it ALTERS...no parent virii exist, so engineering isn't a plausible theory.

Now, if you were saying "manufactured" to mean it was FOUND (rather than created), and they determined they might be able to exploit it (like anthrax), you may have something.

>start digging.

already have...read all the previous posts. It is nice that you come with a stronger background than most of the previous posts, but the fact of the matter remains that there is a HUGE burden of proof that is still not being met.


  

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Mattias
Member since Feb 17th 2004
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Sat Mar-03-01 08:56 AM

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79. "RE: AIDS in Africa: check the herpes vaccination trials?"
In response to Reply # 75


  

          

>no virus, to my knowledge, has
>a double copy of its
>genome with two reverse transcriptase
>enzymes.

there are actually a number of viruses with this feature: HIV, hepatitis A virus, HTLV-1 and -2 and in humans, SIV and STLV in monkeys, FIV in cats, Visna in sheep, and MLV in mice, to name a few.

>this is one of
>reasons the virus replicates so
>fast after the immune systems
>t-cells have been killed off
>upon releasing the virus.

HIV is not characterized by a fast replication. On the contrary, there is a long, latent phase of the HIV infection when little or no replication occurs.

>one virus has the potential
>to produce a number of
>different stains called quasi-species..

Sure, but this is by no means unique for HIV. What you are talking about is called antigenic variation, and this variety is also the way of life for the influenza virus, for example.

>so the
>drugs used never really kill
>of the virus...very smart little
>thing.

Again, this is nothing unique for HIV. Generally, antiviral drugs don't really kill of the virus. Instead, they inhibit certain steps in the viral replication and thus help the cellular immune system to get rid of the virus.

But, even if any of these features would be unique for HIV it wouldn't make it more probable that the virus could be man-made. It seems like many people believe that just because a pathogen (bacteria, viruses, parasites etc.) has some unique features, there is something mysterious about it. However, many pathogens (not to say all) has unique features that make them more invasive or more resistant to our immune system: the Mycoplasma bacteria lack a cell wall and can't be fought with antibiotics such as penicillins, the Trypanosoma brucei protozoa ( the agent causing sleeping sickness) interact with the neurons in the brain to make them produce more of a substance that the parasite can use for its own growth, the Herpes simplex virus can rest latent in immunoprivilieged tissue (in this case neurological tissue), etc etc. These pathogens can all be called "smart little things"; however, there is no doubt that they have existed for thousands of years...

----------------
-You know what Alzheimers is?
-Some kind of beer?

  

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standard deviant
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80. "nice"
In response to Reply # 79


          

n/m

  

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Mattias
Member since Feb 17th 2004
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Sun Mar-04-01 12:51 PM

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88. "thanks,"
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

i try...



----------------
-You know what Alzheimers is?
-Some kind of beer?

  

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QuestOn4
Member since Aug 08th 2003
39 posts
Sun Mar-04-01 01:13 PM

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89. "Good shit! n/m"
In response to Reply # 79


          

----Initiating shutdown sequence----
---Deactivating Soul Brother Prototype: "Quest"---

Writers. Smartasses. Funky Children.

The Collective is:

Vex Bliss La Note Nuru Quest

http://www.womb.cjb.net

AIM: QuestOn4

  

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undaground_ish
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Tue Mar-06-01 12:38 AM

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90. "The History Of The Development Of AIDS"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

The true history of the origin of AIDS can be traced throughout the 20th Century and back to 1878. On April 29 of that year the United States passed a 擢EDERAL QUARANTINE ACT.

The United States began a significant effort to investigate 田auses of epidemic diseases. In 1887, the effort was enhanced with the mandate of the U.S. 鏑ABORATORY OF HYGIENE. This lab was run by Dr. Joseph J. Kinyoun, a deep rooted-racist, who served the eugenics movement with dedication.

Two years later, 1889, we were able to identify 杜ycoplasmas, a transmissible agent, that is now found at the heart of human diseases, including (AIDS) HIV.

In 1893, we strengthened the Federal Quarantine Act and suddenly there was an explosion of polio.

In 1898, we knew we could use mycoplasma to cause epidemics, because we were able to do so in cattle, and we saw it in tobacco plants.

In 1899, the U.S. Congress began investigating 斗eprosy in the United States.

In 1902, We organized a 鉄tation for Experimental Evolution and we were able to identify diseases of an ethnic nature.

In 1904, we used mycoplasma to cause an epidemic in horses.

In 1910, we used mycoplasma to cause an epidemic in fowl/birds.

In 1917, we formed the 擢ederation of the American Society for Experimental Biology (FASEB).

In 1918, the influenza virus killed millions of unsuspecting. It was a flu virus modified with a bird mycoplasma for which human primates had no 殿cquired immunity.

In 1921, lead eugenics philosopher, Betrand Russell, publicly supported the 渡ecessity for 登rganized plagues against the Black population.

In 1931, we secretly tested African Americans and we tested AIDS in sheep.

In 1935, we learned we could crystallize the tobacco mycoplasma, and it would remain infectious.

In 1943, we officially began our bio-warfare program. Shortly thereafter, we were finding our way to New Guinea to study mycoplasma in humans.

In 1945, we witnessed the greatest influx of foreign scientists in history into the U.S. biological program. Operation Paperclip will live in infamy as one of the darkest programs of a twisted parallel government fixated on genocide.

In 1946, the United States Navy hired Dr. Earl Traub, a notorious racist biologist.
A May appropriations hearing confirms the existence of a 都ecret biological weapon.

In 1948, we know that the United States confirmed the endorsement of 電evising a scheme in which to address the issue of overpopulation in certain racial groups. State Department痴 George McKennan痴 memo will forever illuminate the eugenics mendacity necessary for genocide of millions of innocent people.

In 1949, Dr. Bjorn Sigurdsson isolates the VISNA virus. Visna is man made and shares some 砥nique DNA with HIV. See, Proceedings of the United States, NAS, Vol. 92, pp. 3283 - 7, (April 11, 1995).

In 1951, we now know our government conducted its first virus attack on African Americans. Crates in Pennsylvania were tainted to see how many Negro crate handlers in Virginia would acquire the placebo virus.. They were also experimentally infecting sheep and goats. According to author Eva Snead, they also held their first world conference on an AIDS-like virus.

In 1954, Dr. Bjorn Sigurdsson publishes his first paper on Visna virus and establishes himself as the 敵randfather of the AIDS virus. He will encounter competition from Dr. Carlton Gajdusek.

In 1955, they were able to artificially assemble the tobacco mosaic virus. Mycoplasmas will forever be at the heart of the U.S. biological warfare program

In 1957, future U.S. president, Rep Gerald Ford and others gave the U.S. Pentagon permission to aggressively deploy offensive biological agents. There are no recorded cases of AIDS prior to the 1957 creation of 鉄pecial Operation-X. (The SOX) program served as the immediate prototype program for the Special Virus program to begin in 1962.

By 1960, Nikita Kruschev had been let in on the biological weapon. His 1960 statement will long reflect the arrogance of the secret blend of communism and democracy. The two countries would go to a November 1972 agreement to cull the Black Population.

In 1961, scientist Haldor Thomar publishes that viruses cause cancer. In 1995, he and Carlton Gajdusek informed the National Academy of Sciences that 鍍he study of visna in sheep would be the best test for candidate anti-HIV drugs.

In 1962, under the cover of cancer research, the United States charts a path to commit premeditated murder, the 鉄pecial Virus program begins on February 12th. Dr. Len Hayflick sets up a U.S. mycoplasma laboratory at Stanford University. Many believe the 鉄pecial Virus program began in November 1961 with a Phizer contract.

Beginning in 1963 and for every year thereafter, the 鉄pecial Virus program conducted annual progress reviews at Hershey Medical Center, Hershey, PA. The annual meetings are representative of the aggressive nature in which the United States pursued the development of AIDS.

In 1964, the United States Congress gave full support for the leukemia/lymphoma (AIDS) virus research.

In 1967, the National Academy of Sciences launched a full scale assault on Africa. The CIA (Technical Services Division) acknowledged its secret inoculator program.

In 1969, Fort Detrick told world scientists and the Pentagon asked for more money, they knew they could make AIDS. Nixon痴 July 18 secret memo to Congress on 徹verpopulation serves as the start of the paper trail of the AIDS Holocaust.

In 1970, President Nixon signed PL91-213 and John D. Rockefeller, III became the 撤opulation Czar. Nixon痴 August 10 National Security Memo leaves no doubt as to the genocidal nature of depopulation.

In 1971, Progress Report #8 is issued. The flowchart (pg. 61) will forever resolve the true laboratory birth origin of AIDS. Eventually the Special Virus program will issue 15 reports and over 20,000 scientific papers. The flowchart links every scientific paper, medical experiment and U.S. contract. The flowchart would remain 杜issing until 1999. World scientists were stunned. The flowchart will gain in significance throughout the 21st Century. It is also clear the experiments conducted under Phase IV-A of the flowchart are our best route to better therapy and treatment for people living with HIV/AIDS. The first sixty pages of progress report #8 of the Special Virus program prove conclusively the specific goal of the program. By June 1977, the Special Virus program had produced 15, 000 gallons of AIDS. The AIDS virus was attached as complement to vaccines sent to Africa and Manhattan. However, because of the thoroughness of authors, like Dr. Robert E. Lee, we also learn the Stanford Mycoplasma Laboratory issues one of the first papers with AIDS in the title. 天iral Infections in Man Associated with Acquired Immunological Deficiency States. The primary scientist, Dr. Thomas Merigan, was a 田onsultant to the Special Virus program.

Progress Report # 8 at 104 - 106 proves Dr. Robert Gallo was secretly working on the development of AIDS with full support of the sector of the U.S. government that seeks to kill its citizens. Dr. Gallo can not explain why he excluded his role as a 菟roject officer for the Special Virus program from his biographical book. Dr. Gallo痴 early work and discoveries will finally be viewed in relation to the flowchart. We now know where every experiment fits into the flowchart. The 途esearch logic is irrefutable evidence of a federal 溺anhattan-style project to develop a 田ontagious cancer that 都electively kills. Dr. Gallo痴 1971 paper is identical to his 1984 AIDS announcement.

Progress Report #8 at 273 - 286 proves we gave AIDS to monkeys. Since 1962, the United States and Dr. Robert Gallo have been inoculating monkeys and re-releasing them back into the wild. Thus, even government scientists are baffled that both HIV-1 and HIV-II would 都uddenly emerge from two distinct monkey ancestral relatives during the last 100 years. A 1999 Japanese study will ultimately prove the Man to Monkey origin of Monkey AIDS. The monkey experiments summary definitively proves Monkey AIDS is also man-made.

In 1972, the United States and the Soviet Union entered into a biological agreement that would signal the death knell for the Black Population. The 1972 agreement for collaboration and cooperation in the development of offensive biological agents is still U. S. policy.

In 1973, we find that world scientist, Garth Nicolson reports on his project, 迭ole of the Cell Surface in Escape From Immunological Surveillance. His report is accompanied by seven published papers. Dr. Nicolson worked in conjunction with the Special Virus program from 1972 until 1978. Dr. Nicolson is considered by some to be Dr. Gallo痴 展est Coast counterpart. It is strongly held that because of Dr. Nicolson, Dr. Robert Gallo and Dr. Luc Montagnier would secretly meet in Southern California to coordinate what they would and would not say about the special virus development program.

In 1974, Furher Henry Kissinger releases his NSSM-200 (U.S. Plan to Address Overpopulation). It is the only issue of discussion at the World Population Conference in Bucharest, Romania.  The men in the shadows had won, the whole world agrees to secretly cull Africa痴 population. Today it is Africa and other undesirables. Tomorrow it may be you.

In 1975, President Gerald Ford signs National Security Defense Memorandum #314. The United States implements the Kissinger NSSM-200.

In 1976, the United States issues Progress Report #13 of the Special Virus program. The report proves the United States had various international agreements with the Russians, Germans, British, French, Canadians and Japanese. The plot to kill Black people has wide international support. In March, the Special Virus began production of the AIDS virus, by June 1977, the program will have produced 15,000 gallons of AIDS. President Jimmy Carter allows for the continuation of the secret plan to cull the Black Population.

In 1977, Dr. Robert Gallo and the top Soviet Scientists meet to discuss the proliferation of the 15,000 gallons of AIDS. They attach AIDS as complement to the Small pox vaccine for Africa, and the 兎xperimental hepatitis B vaccine for Manhattan. According to authors June Goodfield and Alan Cantwell, it is Batch #751 that was administered in New York to thousands of innocent people. This government will never be able to repay the people for the social rape, humiliation and out right prejudice people with HIV/AIDS face on a daily basis. The men in the shadows of the AIDS curtain accurately calculated that you would not care if only Blacks and gays are dying. In fact you don稚 care that nearly a half million Gulf War veterans are encumbered with something contagious. Soon there will be no more Black people and a confused military, older White people will start suddenly dying and you still won稚 get it. Be here now for us, give us a chance to be there for you.

Suddenly, just as President Nixon had predicted, there was explosive death. On November 4, 1999, the U.S. White House announced,.... 展ithin a period as short as five years, all new infections of HIV in the United States will be African American.... At some point our experts must be allowed to begin the interface process of allowing the history of this virus program to count. It is ludicrous and preposterous to fail to review the U.S. virus program in which to elucidate the etiology of AIDS.

More of the history of the secret virus program can be found in the archives of Dr. John B. Moloney. A review of the files under Dr. Moloney痴 name would further pinpoint additional dates and records consistent with one of the greatest hunts, capture and proliferation of disease in the history of the human race. We have found the missing link. It is the guts of the research logic of a federal program that seeks to kill. We have found a curtain of AIDS. We can identify some of the people who work in the shadows of the curtain. Dr. Robert Gallo and Dr. Garth Nicolson must lead us in review. In light of the attack mechanisms available in which to inhibit AIDS, it is time that not another person be stricken with this relic, synthetic mycoplasma chimera.

Help those of us who are still here to realize full and contributory lives. We are all one people.

On September 28, 1998 I filed suit against the United States for the 田reation, 菟roduction and 菟roliferation of AIDS. On November 7, 2000, the appeals court agreed with the lower court and held AIDS bioengineering as 吐rivolous. The world continues to wait for the court to rule on the resubmitted issues. The court can not continue to simply brush aside our experts and the government痴 flowchart.

I have been asked to give my perspective with regard to the federal program MK-NAOMI . MK-NAOMI is the code for the development of AIDS. The 溺K portion stands for the two co-authors of the AIDS virus, Robert Manaker and Paul Kotin. The 哲AOMI portion stands for 哲egroes are Only Momentary Individuals. The U.S. government continues to orchestrate silence from the very top echelons of the Congress and military. At present there is no accountability. The good people will ultimately create a tsunami of public outrage. We can not allow the state an autocratic right to govern outside of the Constitution. Our society is structured to hide crimes committed by the state, while punishing citizens for minor indiscretions. Their strategy focuses on the general confusion they can create via manipulation of the media. They are very good at what they do. We must become more focused in our continued presentation of the flowchart. The flowchart is the absolute missing link in proving the existence of a coordinated research program to develop a cancer virus that depletes the immune system. New diseases do not create old illnesses.

This compilation of court documents and correspondence is the true effort of one man痴 achievement in solving the mystery of the origin of AIDS. We have found the origin of AIDS, it is us.

http://www.boydgraves.com/timeline/


"My grandmother always tol me Jason, beware ov ur surroundings/ Ya friends ya countin on could also be ya drownin/ She said life is jus a journey and we all on ships/ So get sum ownership, before you end up, unda the ocean ov wasted talent/ Where the coulda shoulda people sit an mope/ My ambition reflects success to my ol school folx/ Jus keep ya head up/ Its got ta get betta, becus its written/ I know sumtimes it seems the negativity wont let up"--Planet Asia


  

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spacecowgirl
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Tue Mar-06-01 07:26 AM

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91. "RE: AIDS in Africa: Conspiracy Theories?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

i haven't read any of the replies so i hope this won't be redundant. i know that aids is man made and that there has been a cure for years but so much money is generated from treatment medications and therapies. aids was produced to rid the the world of who they considered "the undesireables" but i don't think even the producers believed that so many people would be affected, nor do i think they imagined that politicians and entertainers would be afflicted. this may sound crazy but i am not. i just don't put anything past this or any other government. any institution capable of committing the Tuskeegee Experiments is more that capable of producing a deadly virus. come on! it's just unfortunate that we can't even trust a government that's supposed to make decisions in our best interest. anyway, what upset me was when articles would report about how aids came from africa. right there i knew that was some bullshit. no specific country just africa. riiight. i don't trust this government and according to revelations i will never have a reason to. for those of you who know the biblical implications to the new worl order and all that fun stuff! that's another post. i've written my peace.


"Don't forget about strangers for many of you have entertained angels unaware."

"you funny duke-'cause really you think you could do me when you roll a 500 that's really a 320."

"don't forsake you. you are what you own. when you love you you'll never be alone."-me

check this out!
www.aliamarie.com

don't forsake you, you are what you own. when you love you, you'll never be alone

be aware of strangers. many of us have entertained angels unaware

  

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QuestOn4
Member since Aug 08th 2003
39 posts
Tue Mar-06-01 07:35 AM

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92. "another one of THOSE people. n/m"
In response to Reply # 91


          


----Initiating shutdown sequence----
---Deactivating Soul Brother Prototype: "Quest"---

"There's no emoticon for what I'm feeling!" Comic Book Guy

Writers. Smartasses. Funky Children.

The Collective is:

Vex Bliss La Note Nuru Quest

http://www.womb.cjb.net

AIM: QuestOn4

  

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emil
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Tue Mar-06-01 09:45 AM

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93. "ATTN conspiracy theorists:"
In response to Reply # 0


          

i really have little to add. 2 ppl here have already torn apart your arguments as to the initial origin of the virus; it was not CREATED in some lab. me, well i'm 'officially' a biologist and have done quite a bit of in-lab work (level 3 biocontainment suits and all) with hiv as well as lymphomas (related in some ways...won't go into it here). i think i'm gonna start a master's program this summer in a similar field, epidemiology and such.

it's kinda difficult for someone not well-versed in the scientific method and/or the history of disease progression (or even behavior for that matter) to understand fully what's going on here.

no need to repeat what was said earlier, but the point is finding a cure (or at least an effective treatment) for this disease which, i personally don't think there is one. my mentor from a few years back worked with the original team that elucidated the agent of aids in america-cool guy, mormon background, still has little hope for a cure. this shit is just too 'smart' for us intelligent humans.

conspiracies can hold us back, at least when we theorize based on limited information. it's not whether this was created, but whether it was spread purposely and how it can be stopped.

*don't listen to me, as i was only interested in where hiv hides in lymph nodes while someone can be seronegative but still a carrier....

i mean...i'm sayin tho.


  

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