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Yusuf

Mon Mar-19-01 01:33 PM

  
"Muslims and Europe"


          

I've seen a lot being said about Whites and Muslims lately on this board. Being a Muslim that happens to be White myself, I find it somewhat silly that not much is known about the Muslims of Europe.

There are millions of Muslims in Britain, France, Italy, Russia, Kosova, Bosnia, Chechnya, Albania, Germany, and other European nations. In fact, Islam reached parts of Europe before Christianity (such as the area of and around the Caucas Mountains) did and when the European Muslims encountered Christianity they easily disregarded it. Many of you probably know that Muslims ruled Spain for over 700 years. A good majority of European "intellectuals" and "Renaissance men" studied at the Islamic universities that were set up in Spain and surrounding areas. Not to mention that the European Renaissance was the result of the Renaissance that had already flourished in the Muslim world the years before spreading to different European countries.

I find it somewhat humorous that the Western media rarely gives the image of the European Muslim. For example, the recent fighting in Europe. They use the phrase "ethnic Albanian." Why ethnic? Ethnicity has nothing to do with being a Muslim. I rarely heard the word Muslim be mentioned when the Bosnians and Kosovans were (and still are) being slaughtered.

Islam is in fact the fastest growing religion in most, if not all, European nations. It is the second largest in France. In Italy, the Pope has been given advice to ban the entrance of Muslims and was told that if he doesn't then Catholicism will vanish in the near future and Islam will rule.

One of the Sahaabah or companions of the Prophet Muhammad (sallahu alai wa salam) was a Roman that had blue eyes and blonde hair. His name was Abu Yahya Suhayb ar-Rumi:

"Blonde-haired and fair complexioned Abu Yahya Suhayb was born into the luxurious house of his father, a client governor for the Persian emperor. Whilst still a child, Suhayb was captured by a Byzantine raiding party to be eventually sold into slavery in Constantinople Suhayb eventually escaped from bondage and fled to Mecca, a popular place of asylum, where he soon became a prosperous merchant nick-named 'ar-Rumi' (the Roman) due to his Greek tongue and Byzantine up-bringing. When Suhayb heard Muhammad preach, he was at once convinced of the truth of his message and readily embraced Islam. Like the rest of the early Muslims, Suhayb was persecuted by the idolatrous Meccans and had to trade all his wealth in exchange for safe passage to join the Prophet at Medina. When Suhayb finally arrived at Medina, the Prophet, delighted to see him, greeted him thrice: 'Your transaction has been fruitful, O Abu Yahya. Your transaction has been fruitful.' Allah had informed the Prophet of Suhayb's exploits even before they were reunited:

 And there is a type of man who gives his life to earn the pleasure of Allah. And Allah is full of kindness to His servants. (Qur'an, 2:207)

The Prophet loved Suhayb a great deal and described him as having preceded the Byzantines to Islam. Suhayb's piety and standing among Muslims was so high that when Caliph Umar was on his deathbed, he selected Suhayb to lead the Muslims whilst they were choosing a successor."

A side note: The local Muslim community for me is quite small. Perhaps 20-30 active brothers and sisters. However, 5 out of them are White and I'd say that is pretty high.

Yusuf Abdus-Salaam

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
interesting
Mar 19th 2001
1
RE: interesting
Yusuf
Mar 19th 2001
2
      RE: interesting
Mar 19th 2001
3
           hmmm?
Mar 19th 2001
4
           RE: hmmm?
Yusuf
Mar 19th 2001
5
           I'm really really sorry, but you all better read this
ish_skywalker
Mar 28th 2001
61
                RE: I'm really really sorry, but you all better read this
Yusuf
Mar 29th 2001
64
           RE: hmmm?
Mar 19th 2001
6
           Sudani.
Iesa
Mar 27th 2001
57
RE: Muslims and Europe
Eli B
Mar 19th 2001
7
RE: Muslims and Europe
Mar 19th 2001
8
RE: Muslims and Europe
papivocab
Mar 19th 2001
9
Tibet and China
Yusuf
Mar 20th 2001
10
      American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians
Eli B
Mar 20th 2001
14
           RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians
Mar 21st 2001
15
                RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians
Mar 21st 2001
16
                RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians
Mar 21st 2001
20
                RE: Remember Baruch?
Mar 21st 2001
17
                RE: Remember Baruch?
Mar 21st 2001
18
                RE: Remember Baruch? pt.2
Mar 21st 2001
21
                     RE: Remember Baruch? pt.2
Mar 21st 2001
22
                          RE: Remember Baruch? pt.2
Mar 21st 2001
23
                               RE: Remember Baruch? pt.2
Mar 21st 2001
24
                                    Jerusalem in Islam
Yusuf
Mar 22nd 2001
32
                                         RE: Jerusalem in Islam
Mar 22nd 2001
33
                                         RE: Jerusalem in Islam
Yusuf
Mar 22nd 2001
34
                                              RE: Jerusalem in Islam
Mar 22nd 2001
38
                                         RE: Jerusalem in Islam
Mar 22nd 2001
35
                                              RE: Jerusalem in Islam
Yusuf
Mar 22nd 2001
36
                                              RE: Jerusalem in Islam
Mar 22nd 2001
37
                                                   RE: Jerusalem in Islam
Yusuf
Mar 22nd 2001
39
                                                        RE: Jerusalem in Islam
Yusuf
Mar 22nd 2001
40
                                                        RE: Jerusalem in Islam
Mar 22nd 2001
41
                                              RE: Jerusalem in Islam
Mar 22nd 2001
42
                                                   RE: Jerusalem in Islam
Mar 22nd 2001
43
                RE: Remember Baruch?
Mar 21st 2001
19
                RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians
Eli B
Mar 21st 2001
25
                     RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians
Mar 22nd 2001
26
                          RE: Palestinians and Israeli-Arabs?
Mar 22nd 2001
27
                          RE: Palestinians and Israeli-Arabs?
Mar 22nd 2001
29
                               RE: Palestinians and Israeli-Arabs?
Mar 22nd 2001
30
                                    RE: OK SO YOU GOT ME!!
Mar 22nd 2001
31
                                         RE: OK SO YOU GOT ME!!
Eli B
Mar 22nd 2001
44
                          RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians
Mar 22nd 2001
28
                          RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians
Eli B
Mar 22nd 2001
45
                               RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians
Mar 22nd 2001
46
                                    RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians
Eli B
Mar 22nd 2001
47
                                         RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians
Mar 23rd 2001
48
                                              RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians
Eli B
Mar 23rd 2001
49
                                                   RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians
Mar 24th 2001
50
                                                        RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians
Eli B
Mar 24th 2001
51
                                                             RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians
Mar 25th 2001
52
                                                                  RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians
Eli B
Mar 26th 2001
53
                                                                       RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians
Eli B
Mar 26th 2001
54
RE: Muslims and Europe
ebrown9004
Mar 20th 2001
11
RE: Muslims and Europe
Mar 20th 2001
12
      RE: Muslims and Europe
ebrown9004
Mar 20th 2001
13
Makes me happy
Iesa
Mar 27th 2001
55
WHAT?? You are Muslim?
AminahKhuluq
Mar 30th 2001
65
Abduhu
Iesa
Mar 27th 2001
56
Sudani
Iesa
Mar 27th 2001
58
one mo gin
Iesa
Mar 27th 2001
59
It just doesn't stop! Ibrahim (ebrown9004)
Iesa
Mar 27th 2001
60
I'm really really sorry, but you all better read this again.
ish_skywalker
Mar 28th 2001
62
      RE: I'm really really sorry, but you all better read this again.
Iesa
Mar 29th 2001
63

paragon216
Charter member
5565 posts
Mon Mar-19-01 01:51 PM

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1. "interesting"
In response to Reply # 0


          

..i met a lot of white muslims while in school africa...imagine that...russians, albanians, bosnians...some of this info i've never heard before..where is the "local muslim community"..?..


"fool, Hip-Hop is what I say it is" -- Saul Williams

  

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Yusuf

Mon Mar-19-01 01:53 PM

  
2. "RE: interesting"
In response to Reply # 1


          

Fort Walton Beach, Florida

Check: http://www.ummah.com/muslims/icfwb/

  

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Sudani
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631 posts
Mon Mar-19-01 02:04 PM

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3. "RE: interesting"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

I make salat with a white brother every so often. A white sister took shahada a couple of weeks ago. We are in Miami.

  

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paragon216
Charter member
5565 posts
Mon Mar-19-01 02:15 PM

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4. "hmmm?"
In response to Reply # 3


          

..do you feel that the overall attitude toward white muslims is one of caution, or do you think they are readily accepted..?..


"fool, Hip-Hop is what I say it is" -- Saul Williams

  

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Yusuf

Mon Mar-19-01 02:33 PM

  
5. "RE: hmmm?"
In response to Reply # 4


          

I can only speak about my local community, and the answer is that everyone of any color is readily accepted. Even though my community is quite small, it is very diverse. Brothers and sisters from all over the world. Two brothers from Malaysia were visiting here for awhile and just went back. Also brothers from China have just passed through. There are Europeans, Africans, Arabs, and Asians and we all get along and race is never even an issue.

That's a reason I find it silly that some people on this board insist that Islam itself is responsible for oppression. Blaiming Islam for the African Slave Trade and stuff like that. It's very sad that people here have read a few books and received some knowledge about a subject, and sudden speak on it like they are scholars of it. And I am not saying this because I am a Muslim. I will even defend Christianity. Christianity reached Africa before it even reached Europe. And, by the way, one of the first places it reached was Ethiopia. The first Muslims to flee Makkah went to Ethiopia to seek refuge from King Negus, the Christian King of Ethiopia also called The Lion of Judah during that time. He was a trusted ally of the Prophet's (pbuh) and allowed the Muslims to take refuge there as long as needed. He also eventually embraced Islam himself.

I will not go into the story of Bilal, May Allah be pleased with him, who was the Ethiopian slave that lived in Makkah and one of the first to accept Islam because I've already seen some brothers speak on him.

The Pseudo-Scholars I've seen on this board have only fallen victim to Orientalist writings about Islam. Islam didn't spread because of the sword. It spread because the people of that time were actually expecting and looking for another prophet to come. When they received letters (most of which still exist) from the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), many realized this was the expected prophet. Also, for the countries ruled by those who were too afraid to accept Islam for political reasons, the citizens themselves begged the Muslims to come and establish a just nation. It was the example given by the Prophet (pbuh) that made people accept Islam in crowds, not slavery or war.

  

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ish_skywalker

Wed Mar-28-01 04:44 PM

  
61. "I'm really really sorry, but you all better read this"
In response to Reply # 5


          

I hate to break to all of you. But who here really knows the true beginings of Is-Lam? Who really knows what went on in the Middle East 2000 years ago, and then even further back than that? Which one of you really knows the true history of The Egyptians, or the Sumerians? Which one of you truly knows who Allah is, which one of you truly knows what A L M stand for? Which one of you knows that Abraham, Buddha, Yeshua and Ma-hammad were in contact with the same beings? Which one of you know these four major religions all have the same beginings? Which one of you know that Allah was really a woman? Which one of you know that religion (which ever one you've been following) was created to enlsave man, not free man. Which of these religions have you focus on enlightening yourself and returning to the Collective, as oposed to fearing and praying to something that you don't even know exist? Which one of you know why you still follow archaic rituals, and do you even know what they originally meant? Which one of you know what the Great Pyramids were really used for? What to do you know about Stonehenge, the Incas, the Olmecs, the Mayans, Easter Island, Atlantis? Which one of you know about the huge temple structure that they've found off the coast of Japan in 100 feet of water that they date back to 10,500 BC or beyond? What you guys know about sacred geometry? What about Sirius, Orion, or Vega? What do you know about Mars and the pyramids they've found? Or what about the mile long face that NASA found on Mars? Which one of you know that NASA has found another planet in our solar system? What do you guys really know? Do you guys really know what's out there? Personally I think it's futile to argue over religions that you all know so little about. I was raised Muslim, I followed every rule they had for 16 years, and they had many. But I did what every good Muslim, Christian and Jew was told not too, I asked questions. When my questions couldn't be answered I looked for myself, and what I found was not was I was told my whole life. Jews, Christians, Muslims and Buddhist need to stop fighting amongst themselves and seriously look into their true history, what you will find will blow you away.

Peace and ascension peoples

  

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Yusuf

Thu Mar-29-01 01:45 PM

  
64. "RE: I'm really really sorry, but you all better read this"
In response to Reply # 61


          

Ehh.. sounds like someone read some Dr. Malachi Z. York "scrolls".. were they at discount price?

  

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Sudani
Charter member
631 posts
Mon Mar-19-01 02:57 PM

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6. "RE: hmmm?"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

I think that there will be caution at times because a muslim will not change overnight, he has to learn various things and it is a lifelong journey. Islam acknowledges stages people go through but encourages motion and not stagnation. So whereas a person may have problems they have to work out(who doesn't) they eventually,with the grace of Allah, learn how to channel the energy toward something more productive.

I actually had an experience that was a landmark to me. I was watching a video of a well known student of Islam named Hamza Yusef. I gained a whole lot of important perspectives and information from what he had learned. It did not dawn on me until many many months later that he was white. He was intelligent, articulate,etc., but I did not realize his race at ALL. This was important to me because this was the first time I looked at a white man without hearing "he is white" in the back of my head. It is difficult in a society that focuses more on race, than on spirit, to forget the race. This time I got the spirit first, alhamdulillah.

Sudani

  

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Iesa

Tue Mar-27-01 12:23 PM

  
57. "Sudani."
In response to Reply # 3


          

Aslaam Alaikum

Alzs iz canz sayz iz


SABHANA ALLAH.

those people you know in Miami, my lord, Alhamdu Allah, are beautiful.

praise.

peace be upon you.

pray for us all.

  

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Eli B

Mon Mar-19-01 08:47 PM

  
7. "RE: Muslims and Europe"
In response to Reply # 0


          

As a non-Muslim, actually Christian, Arab, I do however have historical sympathy for Muslims in events such as the Crusades, etc. becuase it was Muslims, usually Arabs, who fought against the European Crusaders, and to me, nationality/ethnicity connects a people more than religion. And furthermore, Islam has a great influence on Arab culture, since it is the dominant religion among Arabs. But why is it that in the period before the European renaissance, during the Arab/Islamic renaissance and dynasties, the Western world refers to the period as The Dark Ages? Could it be the historical racism against Arabs and Muslims that continues today as every movement that is fighting for freedom and human rights from Tibet to Chiapas, Mexico is politically correct EXCEPT the Palestinians fighting for freedom, independence, and human rights. Why do we always see FREE TIBET stickers and Tibetan Freedom concerts, but never see FREE PALESTINE stickers and Palestinian Freedom concerts? If there ever was a Palestinian freedom concert, Stevie Wonder, Sting, Chuck D, and probably Mos would be the first to sign on. Madonna and Michael Jackson need not apply.

  

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AZ
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12930 posts
Mon Mar-19-01 09:01 PM

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8. "RE: Muslims and Europe"
In response to Reply # 7


          

If there
>ever was a Palestinian freedom
>concert, Stevie Wonder, Sting, Chuck
>D, and probably Mos would
>be the first to sign
>on.

Actually Stevie Wonder performed at Israel's celebration of 50 years of occupation a couple years ago. Then again, Muhammad Ali took part in George Bush Jr.'s inaguration, and also the Atlanta Olympics. It seems like the people who were cool when they were young just turn into sellouts when they get older (there are exceptions of course).

  

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papivocab

Mon Mar-19-01 09:20 PM

  
9. "RE: Muslims and Europe"
In response to Reply # 8


          

Damn yusuf good look on that enlightenment kid. I wasn't aware of the amount of white muslims. I dojn't think anyone is because of the stigma that's associated with the nation as being anti-white. Although I agreed with some of their preaches and views, this one I couldn't swallow. But yo, like I said, you spreading some good enlightenment kid, that I can't wait to share with these knuckleheads out here.

  

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Yusuf

Tue Mar-20-01 05:34 AM

  
10. "Tibet and China"
In response to Reply # 7


          

I agree. I have mixed views on the situation in Palestine and I think one of the reasons they aren't succeeding in defeating the Zionists occupying their land is because they are fighting for Nationalistic reasons and not in the Cause of Allah. For example, if the Palestinians did defeat them. Do you think they would establish an Islamic nation based mostly, if not completely, on the Shariah? I doubt it. Nevertheless, I ask Allah to give them strength and victory. Also, you mention that you are an Arab Christian. Next time you hear about the massacre going on in Palestine, note that they never mention that it is the Palestinian Muslims and Christians uniting to try to defeat the Zionists there. Perhaps they don't want to give American Christians that type of image of unity of Christian and Muslim.

Anyways, about Tibet. There is actually a quite sizeable community of Muslims that have lived in Tibet for a long time now. They have never had problems with the neighboring Buddhists, and a good majority of them were killed during the "Cultural Revolution."

In China, the unofficial count of Muslims ranges from 10-20 million. Islam reached China by way of one of the Prophet Muhammad's (peace be upon him) companions, Saad ibn Abi Waqqas (may Allah be pleased with him). The emperor of the time, Yung-Wi, found Islam to be a little too conservative but he allowed the people to practice it if they had wished and ordered the first mosque to be built, which still stands today, after fourteen centuries.

The Chinese government has done a wonderful job at dividing the Muslims of China. It split them into 10 distinct "ethnic" groups to make the Muslim identity disappear. In China during the "Cultural Revolution," Islamic schools were closed, 29,000 mosques were closed, and there was widespread torture of the Imams. Many of the Imams were forced to work on pig farms and other humiliating punishments. The Muslim children were made to disregard the Arabic script of the Uygur language and learn the Latin alphabet.

According to population statistics of 1936, the then Kuomingtang Republic of China had an estimated 48,104,240 Muslims. After the introduction of Mao's policies, this number was reduced to ten million. No official Chinese explanation has ever been given for this apparent disappearance of around 38 million Muslims. The mass extermination and destruction of the Muslims of China pales before the much publicized plight of a handful of Tibetan monks or the democrats of Tiannaman Square.

Many Muslim Chinese and Tibetans were persecuted. How come I never hear about this Holocaust? If the population of Muslims was 48 million before Mao, and is now 10-20 million???

Right now in China there is some fighting going on between the Hui, the largest Muslim group, and the Chinese government. The Hui tend to get oppressed economically and physically. About 2,300 Chinese are allowed to make Hajj every year. But, most of them are old because the Chinese government doesn't want them returning to China with the spirit of Islam lit up inside since it may make them revolt against the Communism.

  

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Eli B

Tue Mar-20-01 01:57 PM

  
14. "American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians"
In response to Reply # 10


          

This message is also for ebrown. You're so right when it comes to anti-Muslim and anti-Arab feelings in the US, esp. from the so-called Religious Right in this effed-up country. Religious Right wingers like the mother fuckers Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, etc. are so anti-Muslim that I read they want muslims (or at least the Nation of Islam) excluded from George W.'s "Faith-Based Initiative." I don't know if GW's agreed yet, but if he does, as Sen. Paul Wellstone recently said, "What ever happened to COMPASSIONATE conservatism?"

As for the Religious Right and their views on Palestine, simply one word: RACISTMOTHERFUCKERS. They are sooooo anti-Palestinian, on Zionist propaganda shows dressed up like Lessons on Love thru Christianity, such as The 700 Club, they make it seem as if the Israelis and Christians are one people and have mutual interests and that all Palestinians are Muslim. The fact of the matter is 1) Jews resent Christians, whether it's justified or not; 2) Many Jews usually quiver at the mention that Jesus Christ is revered as the Savior by many Christians; 3) there is a significant Christian minority among Palestinians; 4) Palestinian Christians and Muslims will forever be united against the Zionist Element and even after the evil Zionists are defeated; 5)The Palestinians, once they get control of East Jerusalem, will respect all religious sites, Muslim, Christian, and believe it or not, Jewish. Why does Pat Robertson think the Palestinians are religious vandals who will destroy all things non-Muslim. In fact, it is the Israelis who are allowing archaeological digs and tunnels to be built under the Al-Aqsa Mosque, with the potential and possibility that the mosque will eventually collapse if the digs continue.

"Black like Palestinians." -Mos
"Land beef like Palestine." -L-Boogie
"Jesus Christ was Palestinian." -Yasser Arafat

  

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lambda
Member since Aug 14th 2002
72 posts
Wed Mar-21-01 05:48 AM

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15. "RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians"
In response to Reply # 14


          

There is no reason to believe that the Palestinians would respect Jewish and Christian holy places. If you remember what happened when Jordan had control of East Jerusalem, you would know this. What the Palestinians recently did in Nablus is also in violation of the Oslo Accords. If they can't respect Jewish holy places now, why would they when they have complete control?

The person in charge of Muslim holy places in Jerusalem, the Mufti of Jerusalem, made a very ignorant statement,

There is not the smallest indication of the existence of a Jewish temple on this place in the past. In the whole city, there is not even a single stone indicating Jewish history. (from the German Die Welt)

This is not only contradicted by facts and history, but also by his very own Qur'an, (Suras 17 and 34). Regardless of any stupidity in taking his position, he would be the one in charge of holy sites if there were to be Palestinian Authority control over Jerusalem.

  

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AZ
Charter member
12930 posts
Wed Mar-21-01 07:26 AM

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16. "RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians"
In response to Reply # 15


          

What the Palestinians recently
>did in Nablus is also
>in violation of the Oslo
>Accords.


Don't start talking about the Oslo Accords, or any other peace agreement, because the israelis haven't complied with any of them. They're the most untrustworthy people on the planet.

  

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lambda
Member since Aug 14th 2002
72 posts
Wed Mar-21-01 11:00 AM

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20. "RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians"
In response to Reply # 16


          

Untrustworthy? They've let Muslims pray on the Temple Mount, whereas Jordan didn't even let Jews in the city of Jerusalem when it was in control. That was despite the fact that Jerusalem has had a Jewish majority since 1840.

  

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abduhu
Charter member
1734 posts
Wed Mar-21-01 07:27 AM

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17. "RE: Remember Baruch?"
In response to Reply # 15


          

bismillah

taken from:http://www.hebron.com/massacres/hebron/israel-honors-serial-murderer-111597.html


Dr. Baruch Goldstein

"Dr. Goldstein had been plotting an act of violence as far back as two years ago."
Avram Gross of Kiryat Arba, NY Times, February 26, 1994, p1.


Baruch Goldstein grew on the 81st Street in Brooklyn, NY in an orthodox family. His friends say that his father was very strict with him that he did not want Baruch to play with other Catholic children, out of his Zionist sense that the assimilation of Jews in non-Jewish society is almost a sin. His original name was Benjamin Goldstein but that the present trends among American Jews of showing their commitment to the Jewish cause and Israel made him change his name to the Jewish name Baruch. His friends describe him as a typical Zionist with a strong commitment to the Jewish cause and Israel. After his death, a spokeswoman for Kach terrorist group, Barbara Ginsberg, told reporters that Baruch committed the massacre "for the sake of Israel."

Baruch Goldstein joined Einstein medical school in NY. Like many of the Zionists in the United States, he was determined to immigrate to Israel after his graduation to help the rest of Israelis in their fight against the Palestinians. While a college student, Baruch Goldstein joined members of Kach terrorist group which the Israeli and the US governments say it is now outlawed in both the US and Israel. In both countries, there has been no or few arrests related to this terrorist group and when arrests were made, the culprits left jails without punishment appropriate to the crime committed.

Anti-Semitism and Goldstein

During his study, Baruch Goldstein participated in several campaigns against anti-Semitism, a concept under which some groups operate their activities in the United States to cover their terrorist activities or hate for Arabs. The campaigns were financed by Zionist groups in the United States, most of which were "campaigning" against the "anti-Semitism" in the US. His friends say that he attended with many other Jewish activists "summer camps" in the Massachusetts and other New England states. The "camps" were mainly to train participants on fighting techniques and to teach them about Zionism. In the summer camps, Baruch met with members and leaders of the Kach terrorist group whose leader, Rabbi Meir Kahane, was a former Israel Knesset (parliament) member.

Baruch became a very strong supporter of the Zionist groups which worked against anti-Semitism. In 1982 and after his graduation, he became an official member of Kach. He then left the US "to Come to The Land (Israel)" in 1983 to help Israel in its cause against the Palestinian Arabs.


Goldstein and the Torah

Like all other religious fanatics, Baruch Goldstein raised the holy book (the Torah in this case) in one hand and a gun in the other hand. His goal was to "transfer" Palestinians, all of them, from Israel and the occupied territories to Jordan and other Arabic countries. The idea of "Transfer" was that of his spiritual leader, Rabbi Meir Kahane who was assassinated by another Egyptian terrorist, Said Nassir, in NY in 1990. Baruch possessed a very strong charisma and he was capable of convincing young Jews by holding the Torah in one hand and the machine gun in the other hand.

Goldstein participated in giving religious advisory opinions to other Jewish youths. In the United States, he gave lectures in cooperation with the Jewish Defense League (JDL) which his spiritual father, Rabbi Meir Kahane established in 1968 to fight anti-Semitism. When in Israel, the Israeli government allowed Dr. Goldstein to give religious speeches and advice to Jewish prisoners. Most of the lectures he gave were in Ramle jail and were mostly focused on the idea of Transfer to save the Jewish state from the Palestinian demographic danger. Goldstein's main idea was that even if Palestinians commit no violence, their mere existence in The Land is a threat to the Jewish state as in 70 years, Palestinians will be a majority. So, Goldstein believed that all of the Palestinians should be driven out, even by force.

Few Israeli soldiers did not like the way Goldstein handled himself in the mosque during his worship visitations to the Cave of the Patriarchs or the Abraham Mosque. Hundreds of tourists flock the holy shrine, sometimes on daily basis. He and the rest of his settler friends were violent against the Arab worshippers on many occasions. The Israeli army prohibited him from visiting the mosque for one month after he threatened a soldier who ventured to stop Goldstein from harassing Muslim worshippers. In October 1991, Goldstein and a friend of him, Gabby Cofferberg, led a group of settlers and came to the mosque for worshipping but had a confrontation with the Arabs. An Israeli commander, Meir Blomenfield, attempted to interfere in favor of the Muslim worshippers. The commander was beaten by the settlers before Israeli troops managed to spare the officer's dignity and body. Goldstein sent complaint letters against the officer and he received a written response from the Israeli Defense Ministry stating that the officer was simply trying to do his job.


Goldstein is the settlers and settlers are Goldsteins

Goldstein was no unique in his thoughts of expelling the Arabs. On Sept. 22, 1998, the Israeli daily Maariv published a result of a survey in which two third of the Israelis supported the idea of expelling Arabs (Transfer.) In Hebron and the rest of the occupied territories, the vast majority of the settlers are either supporters or members of Kach and Moledet who explicitly call for "Transfer" or expelling Palestinians from their lands by any means, including violence.

The Israeli weekly Kol Haeir reported in its edition of 14 November 1997 that some Israelis have recently placed a special Mezuzah (prayers-- Jewish 10 commandments) for Dr. Baruch Goldstein on the main entrance of the western Wailing Wall in Jerusalem. Beside the Mezuzah, there was the dedication that says:- "In Memory Of The Son Of Israel, May G-d Bless Him." The Mezuzah was placed on a spot that is exactly opposite to a police station in the area. But an Israeli official who is responsible of the religious affairs of the area; Oded Viner; said that he had no knowledge of the Mezuzah, except from the Kol Haeir report.


Regaining The Land by "blood" and not peace

Thousands of Israelis and settlers participated in the funeral of Dr. Goldstein. It took the the participants about 90 minutes to drive from the funeral home to the "temporary" grave of Goldstein which was about half a mile from the funeral home. Participants included Israeli army and police who "guarded" the funeral in the originally strictly and heavily secured settlement of Kiryat Arba. In the eulogy, participants shouted "death to Arabs" and "transfer the Arabs."

In the eulogy, one of Kach leaders, T. Pollack, gave an impressive speech about Dr. Goldstein. He told the participants that Dr. Goldstein refused to treat any Arab patient in his life, even during his service in the IDF where he refused to treat the wounded of the enemy. Rabbi Yisrael Ariel Goldstein described Goldstein as a person who is having a higher status than the saints. He described him as a "Royal Martyr" who was "Listening to the cry of the stolen Land from the Ishmaelites every day. And he did to alleviate that cry." The Rabbi summarized his statement by saying that "It is not peace agreements which recover lands, it is blood that recovers lands."

Another speaker in the eulogy said that "The People of Israel were sick and Goldstein gave us the medication."

Till the writing of these words, Palestinian and Israeli sources warn that there could be another Goldstein coming to avenge from the Arab citizens.



do you remember that? cause we sure do!
now WHO doesnt respect WHAT?


Allah says about Truth and Falsehood in The Qur'an:
21:18 Nay! We hurl The Truth against falsehood, and it knocks out it's brain, and behold, falsehood perishes! Ah! woe be to you for the false things you ascribe.

Allah says about Man in The Qur'an:
10:12 When trouble toucheth a man, He crieth unto Us (in all postures)- lying down on his side, or sitting, or standing. But when We have solved his trouble, he passeth on his way as if he had never cried to Us for a trouble that touched him! thus do the deeds of transgressors seem fair in their eyes!
10:19 Mankind was but one nation, but differed (later). Had it not been for a word that went forth before from thy Lord, their differences would have been settled between them.
10:22 He it is Who enableth you to traverse through land and sea; so that ye even board ships;- they sail with them with a favourable wind, and they rejoice thereat; then comes a stormy wind and the waves come to them from all sides, and they think they are being overwhelmed: they cry unto Allah, sincerely offering (their) duty unto Him saying, "If thou dost deliver us from this, we shall truly show our gratitude!"
10:23 But when he delivereth them, behold! they transgress insolently through the earth in defiance of right! O mankind! your insolence is against your own souls,- an enjoyment of the life of the present: in the end, to Us is your return, and We shall show you the truth of all that ye did.

subhakallahumma wabihamdika ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa attuubu ilaika

  

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lambda
Member since Aug 14th 2002
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Wed Mar-21-01 10:43 AM

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18. "RE: Remember Baruch?"
In response to Reply # 17


          

That article is ignorant on a number of points:

1) Most of the Zionist organizations in America do not support Meir Kahane's views. Besides the JDL and its relatives/spinoffs, I can't recall any Jewish organization that supports his views.

2) The Israeli public and government do not support Meir Kahane's views. In fact, the Knesset barred Kahane from running for political office when his power was becoming too great.

3) The Israeli government does not support Baruch Goldstein. The Jerusalem Magistrate's Court sentenced a person who glorified Goldstein to 8 months in prison.

4)

  

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abduhu
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21. "RE: Remember Baruch? pt.2"
In response to Reply # 18


          

>That article is ignorant on a
>number of points:
>
>1) Most of the Zionist organizations
>in America do not support
>Meir Kahane's views. Besides the
>JDL and its relatives/spinoffs, I
>can't recall any Jewish organization
>that supports his views.
>
>2) The Israeli public and government
>do not support Meir Kahane's
>views. In fact, the Knesset
>barred Kahane from running for
>political office when his power
>was becoming too great.
>
>3) The Israeli government does not
>support Baruch Goldstein. The Jerusalem
>Magistrate's Court sentenced a person
>who glorified Goldstein to 8
>months in prison.

the following text is taken from:http://www.time.com/time/magazine/archive/1994/940328/940328.middleeast.html


Hebron's Ugly Truths Hints of a second shooter and revelations of official laxity raise the specter of high-level resignations

By LISA BEYER/JERUSALEM
Tragic but simple: that was Israel's official characterization of last month's massacre of Muslim worshippers in Hebron. The killer, a Jewish settler, was portrayed as a singular lunatic acting alone. The episode, it was said, could not have been foreseen or prevented, and Israeli security forces responded properly. But after two weeks of hearings by a state commission examining the slaughter, it does not look so elementary anymore. Baruch Goldstein, the Hebron triggerman, is no longer the sole subject of suspicion, now that witnesses say a second man may have been involved. More broadly, an entire national mind-set that enabled settlers to run amuck with shocking ease is on trial.

While the U.S. struggled last week to contain the consequences of the massacre and bring the P.L.O. back to the negotiating table, the commission of inquiry kept turning up evidence casting doubt on Israel's original version of events. Two soldiers on duty at the mosque admitted they had opened fire in the direction of the fleeing worshippers, though they said they did not hit anyone. Their statements directly contradicted the army's contention that soldiers fired only in the air and lent weight to claims by Palestinian eyewitnesses that soldiers were responsible for at least one of the 29 deaths. Then the same soldiers cast doubts on the army's conclusion that Goldstein acted on his own. They testified that Goldstein entered the mosque carrying an M-16 rifle, not the Israeli-made Glilon (a shortened Galil assault rifle) that the army claimed fired all the shots inside the mosque. One of the soldiers said that another man entered the shrine shortly after Goldstein, with a Glilon. That aroused suspicion that Goldstein had an accomplice, as some Palestinians have contended.

On Friday, the U.N. Security Council unanimously condemned the Hebron massacre, and Syria, Jordan and Lebanon agreed to resume their negotiations with Israel. Though the P.L.O. still wanted "concrete measures" to protect Palestinians before it went back to the bargaining table, it agreed to a high-level meeting with Israel this week in Tunis.

Many Israelis were worrying almost as much about their country's behavior. Testimony has pointed to considerable official negligence. Security procedures were surprisingly lax at a shrine that has been a notorious flash point for tensions. Authorities did not take seriously the threat of settler mayhem, although warning signs were plentiful. And many were asking whether the security forces overreacted in the aftermath of the massacre. Before it is even completed, the inquiry is raising the specter of high-level resignations.

For many citizens, the most dismaying revelation came at the beginning of the hearings from Deputy Commander Meir Tayar, who heads the paramilitary border police unit in Hebron. Standing orders, he said, forbade security forces from firing on Jewish settlers under any circumstances. He explained that if a settler opened fire, instructions were to "take cover and wait for the clip to finish, then stop him in some other way, not by shooting."

The army argued that these orders applied only to situations in which lives were not endangered, not to murder. But testimony from other security guards at the Tomb showed that whatever the commanders intended, their orders were interpreted by many servicemen as absolute: no shooting at Jews. Since soldiers routinely open fire on Palestinians armed with nothing more than rocks, many Israelis were appalled by the double standard.

Army commanders said they never issued directives covering a case like Goldstein's because they never imagined a Jew would commit such a crime. But for months, the entire country watched fanatical settlers publicly threaten violence to sabotage the promised onset of Palestinian autonomy in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Officers of the Shin Bet, Israel's internal intelligence agency, told the commission that they had warned the military numerous times that radical settlers were likely to commit extreme acts.

The Tomb of the Patriarchs was an obvious tinderbox. The military governor of Hebron, Colonel Shalom Goldstein, testified that 25 "incidents of friction" between Jewish and Muslim worshippers had been recorded there in the past year. Yet security discipline was slack. On the morning of the massacre, five of the six men who were supposed to be guarding the inside of the mosque were absent. Three arrived late, which one of them acknowledged was a common occurrence.

While it seems a safe bet that the commission will ultimately find that Israeli negligence eased Goldstein's mission, the question is how high up it will assign blame. One possible victim is Lieut. General Ehud Barak, the military chief of staff who has been widely touted as Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin's preferred successor. Says a high-ranking army officer: "Barak used to be considered a wunderkind. The blunders made in the Tomb have tarnished his reputation."

It is also conceivable that the commissioners will reach as high as the Defense Minister, who also happens to be Prime Minister Rabin. If so, he might be compelled to step down. Then Baruch Goldstein would have a hearty laugh from the grave. His aim was to destroy the Middle East peace process, and nothing would accomplish that better than the fall of Yitzhak Rabin.

Copyright 1994 Time Inc. All rights reserved.

what does this article say about "support", or what is this one lacking?





Allah says about Truth and Falsehood in The Qur'an:
21:18 Nay! We hurl The Truth against falsehood, and it knocks out it's brain, and behold, falsehood perishes! Ah! woe be to you for the false things you ascribe.

Allah says about Man in The Qur'an:
10:12 When trouble toucheth a man, He crieth unto Us (in all postures)- lying down on his side, or sitting, or standing. But when We have solved his trouble, he passeth on his way as if he had never cried to Us for a trouble that touched him! thus do the deeds of transgressors seem fair in their eyes!
10:19 Mankind was but one nation, but differed (later). Had it not been for a word that went forth before from thy Lord, their differences would have been settled between them.
10:22 He it is Who enableth you to traverse through land and sea; so that ye even board ships;- they sail with them with a favourable wind, and they rejoice thereat; then comes a stormy wind and the waves come to them from all sides, and they think they are being overwhelmed: they cry unto Allah, sincerely offering (their) duty unto Him saying, "If thou dost deliver us from this, we shall truly show our gratitude!"
10:23 But when he delivereth them, behold! they transgress insolently through the earth in defiance of right! O mankind! your insolence is against your own souls,- an enjoyment of the life of the present: in the end, to Us is your return, and We shall show you the truth of all that ye did.

subhakallahumma wabihamdika ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa attuubu ilaika

  

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lambda
Member since Aug 14th 2002
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Wed Mar-21-01 11:12 AM

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22. "RE: Remember Baruch? pt.2"
In response to Reply # 21


          

You should probably read my full reply below, and start posting your own points instead of copying articles, but if you wish to not think I can not compell you to do so.

Saying that Ehud Barak is opposed to the peace process is something that has proved not to be true. He actually offered Arafat control over part of Jerusalem, something which almost no Israelis agreed with. What he did ended up costing him his place in political office recently. If he was really so opposed to Palestine, why would he give in to their demands (only to have them not accept the agreement) and lose his place in office because of it. That viewpoint does not make sense.

  

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abduhu
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Wed Mar-21-01 11:59 AM

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23. "RE: Remember Baruch? pt.2"
In response to Reply # 22


          

>You should probably read my full
>reply below, and start posting
>your own points instead of
>copying articles, but if you
>wish to not think I
>can not compell you to
>do so.
>
>Saying that Ehud Barak is opposed
>to the peace process is
>something that has proved not
>to be true. He actually
>offered Arafat control over part
>of Jerusalem, something which almost
>no Israelis agreed with. What
>he did ended up costing
>him his place in political
>office recently. If he was
>really so opposed to Palestine,
>why would he give in
>to their demands (only to
>have them not accept the
>agreement) and lose his place
>in office because of it.
>That viewpoint does not make
>sense.


bismillah

i read your posts, and it was my wish that compelled me to post the two articles. i posted them to keep my personal statements from being considered erroneous and unfounded. figured you would trust their words b4 mine.

question? who has more right to that land? and why?



Allah says about Truth and Falsehood in The Qur'an:
21:18 Nay! We hurl The Truth against falsehood, and it knocks out it's brain, and behold, falsehood perishes! Ah! woe be to you for the false things you ascribe.

Allah says about Man in The Qur'an:
10:12 When trouble toucheth a man, He crieth unto Us (in all postures)- lying down on his side, or sitting, or standing. But when We have solved his trouble, he passeth on his way as if he had never cried to Us for a trouble that touched him! thus do the deeds of transgressors seem fair in their eyes!
10:19 Mankind was but one nation, but differed (later). Had it not been for a word that went forth before from thy Lord, their differences would have been settled between them.
10:22 He it is Who enableth you to traverse through land and sea; so that ye even board ships;- they sail with them with a favourable wind, and they rejoice thereat; then comes a stormy wind and the waves come to them from all sides, and they think they are being overwhelmed: they cry unto Allah, sincerely offering (their) duty unto Him saying, "If thou dost deliver us from this, we shall truly show our gratitude!"
10:23 But when he delivereth them, behold! they transgress insolently through the earth in defiance of right! O mankind! your insolence is against your own souls,- an enjoyment of the life of the present: in the end, to Us is your return, and We shall show you the truth of all that ye did.

subhakallahumma wabihamdika ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa attuubu ilaika

  

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lambda
Member since Aug 14th 2002
72 posts
Wed Mar-21-01 12:30 PM

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24. "RE: Remember Baruch? pt.2"
In response to Reply # 23


          

If you were to look at the issue with the view of the western world, specifically that whoever conquers a land gets it, the Jews would deserve it.

Britain conquered the Ottomans in that region earlier this century, and they made an initiative to create a Jewish homeland. After the British Mandate ended, the UN needed to decide to do with it. They wanted to create a Palestinian homeland as well, but the Arabs declined, so they created a Jewish state, smaller than the one that exists today.

At the formation of this state, and during the decades that followed, there were many wars fought against Israel by other countries in the region. Israel won every single conflict and gained land. The other countries by the western world's rules would have no reason to complain, because the Arab countries attacked first and Israel just won land while defending itself.

It is important to note that Islam has a much larger military tradition than Judaism. Judaism actually forbids unnecessary and gluttonous conquest, whereas Muhammed and the generations of Muslims that followed had a large empire.

If you were to look at the issue from the perspective of religious importance and history, it would belong to the Jews as well.

Jerusalem is the holiest city in Judaism. It is the only city mentioned by name in Jewish prayers, and it has profound significance religiously. It is the site of the Beit Mikdash, or the Temple, which is the most sacred land in the world to Jews. The most particularly sacred piece of land is the Holy of Holies, the location of which has not been absolutely determined, due to Palestinian restrictions on archaeology. There are many Midrashim and whatnot I could quote to show the Jewish significance of Jerusalem, but I'm sure you are well aware of that.

Where does Jerusalem stand in Islam? It is the 3rd Holiest city, after Mecca and Medina

Muslims claiming Jerusalem is analogous to Arab Christians claiming Mecca because there was an ancient Christian Church there (I'm not sure if there is, there might be).

As I mentioned above, all censuses taken after 1840 of Jerusalem show that the majority of the population was Jewish, and that majority generally increased as time progressed. There were not many people living in Israel, because the land was so terribly kept. After the arrival of Zionists who bought the land from its owners at high prices and turned it into usable farmland and the like Arabs could migrate back to Israel because it was possible to live there again.

  

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Yusuf

Thu Mar-22-01 09:20 AM

  
32. "Jerusalem in Islam"
In response to Reply # 24


          

>Where does Jerusalem stand in Islam?
>It is the 3rd Holiest
>city, after Mecca and Medina
>>towards Jerusalem, but after Muhammed's
>problems with getting the Jews
>of Medina to accept him,
>he changed the direction. There
>is archaeological evidence, floorplans, and
>a quote by a Christian
>traveller to back this up.]

This is false.

First: The idea that there are different levels of ranks of Holiness is not an idea in Islam. It is something written by non-Muslims, particularly Orientalists, when talking about Islam. The ares of Mecca, Medina, and Jerusalem are all holy places and all have strong importance.

Second: When the the Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, came to Medina he would face Bayt al-Maqdis (Jerusalem) when he would pray and this lasted for 16 or 17 months, hoping the Qibla would be towards the Ka'bah. Then Allah commanded him to face the direction of the Ka'bah, as revealed in Al-Qur'an, Surah al-Baqarah, Ayat 144. "so turn your face in the direction of al-Masjid al-Haraam. And wheresoever you people are, turn your faces (in prayer) in that direction"

Third: The change of Qiblah was a test for the true believer, who accepts the commands of Allah. The Ayat before the previous, 2:143 says, "And We made the Qiblah which you used to face, only to test
those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels. Indeed it was great (heavy) except for those whom Allaah guided."

Fourth: The Muslim ummah is the best of nations, as Allah says (interpretation of the meaning): "You are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind" . Confirming the Ayat about the Qiblah, Allah says: "Thus We have made of you (true Muslims) a Wasat (just) (and the best) nation" . "Wasat" conveys meanings of justice and of being chosen. So Allah has chosen for the Muslim ummah goodness in all things and the best commands and rules, and thus He chose for them the Qiblah of Abraham, upon whom be peace.

Fifth: You must understand how Muslims view the Prophets, peace be upon all of them. Muslims believe in those sent to the Children of Israel. But, the Children of Israel were not "Jews" at that time. There was no Judaism. Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jacob, Issac, Ishmael, Job, Ezekiel, Lot, Isaiah, Solomon, Jesus, upon all of them be peace, were all Muslims. They all submitted to the Oneness of Allah and didn't associate partners with Him. When Allah chose and raised the Children of Israel upon others they were Muslims. However, time and time again they began to go astray and disbelieve. I may be wrong in saying this, Allah knows best, but I believe that Jesus, peace be upon him, was the last prophet sent to the Children of Israel and he brought to them the news that the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, was the next and last in the chain of Prophets and Messengers to come. Many of the Children of Israel ignored because they had far strayed away from believing in the Oneness of Allah and they tampered with the revelations given to them and this is what we have come to known as Judaism, so therefore they were no longer Muslim. But they still remembered, Jesus', peace be upon him, message of the final Prophet to come. However, when the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) finally came, many of the Children of Israel became angry because out of pride since they knew he was the Messenger that was prophecised by Jesus, peace be upon him, and also because he was a descendant of Ishmael and not Isaac. Still, many of the Children of Israel actually did accept him and became Muslims. The city of Medina that the Muslims fled to was mainly a Jewish city. The Jews invited the Muslims to come to the city and live. It was no conquered by the Muslims or anything like that. When the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) came to the town, every single person was offering their home to be his home. Many of the Jews of Medina therefore accepted Islam and became some of the greatest Muslims. However, the test came to them when Allah changed the Qiblah from Jerusalem to the original Qiblah - Mecca.

I hope this clears up any confusion. For more information, which clears up the confusion from that "Christian with archaeological proof," read these:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/kaaba.html

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/aqsa.html

If this doesn't help, I can find more, Insha' Allah.

Yusuf Abdus-Salaam

  

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lambda
Member since Aug 14th 2002
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Thu Mar-22-01 11:39 AM

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33. "RE: Jerusalem in Islam"
In response to Reply # 32


          

Here are responses to your points:

First - There is obviously more of a reverence for Mecca than Jerusalem in Islam. Is it a pillar of Islam to take a hajj to Jerusalem?



Second/Third - I don't care much about the change of the Qibla, I was just pointing out that before Muhammed started killing/enslaving Jews, mosques pointed towards Jerusalem. Maybe that wasn't the *cause* of the change in the Qibla, I'm no expert on that stuff to tell you.

Fourth -

  

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Yusuf

Thu Mar-22-01 11:51 AM

  
34. "RE: Jerusalem in Islam"
In response to Reply # 33


          

>First - There is obviously more
>of a reverence for Mecca
>than Jerusalem in Islam. Is
>it a pillar of Islam
>to take a hajj to
>Jerusalem?

That's not a reasonable assumption. Muslims make pilgrimage to Mecca because that is where the Ka'bah, the direction of prayer, is. Also because the significant events that are done through the rites of the hajj, such as running between the two mountains, making tawaaf, traveling to Mt Arafat, all originally took place in that area.

Jerusalem is where the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah) went when he led the rest of the Prophets, upon them all be peace, in a congregational prayer. This event signifies that he is the Seal of the Prophets. This isn't important?

>>translation of the Hebrew Beit
>HaMikdash, or House of the
>Sacred, which obviously refers to
>the Temple, not all of
>Jerusalem.]

It is not a translation. Both Hebrew and Arabic are Semitic languages, so of course they have similarities.

>Second/Third - I don't care much
>about the change of the
>Qibla, I was just pointing
>out that before Muhammed started
>killing/enslaving Jews, mosques pointed towards
>Jerusalem. Maybe that wasn't the
>*cause* of the change in
>the Qibla, I'm no expert
>on that stuff to tell
>you.

False claims. And to be specific about when the Muslims ruled Jerusalem, it was when Umar, may Allah be pleased with him, went to the city and was given the keys to it. The Muslims invited all of the Jews back into Jerusalem and ended the persecution that was given to them by the Romans. Maybe you forgot to study that part. And if you're not an expert, or haven't studied enough, why even speak on it? Stop misleading people with false information, making false claims on things you have only read about in books written by Orientalists who make claims that the Christian missionaries have for ages now. These are old lies that have been defeated by Muslim scholars many years ago. It's time to move on and to stop learning about Islam from books written by the same mentality that was behind the Crusades.

Yusuf Abdus-Salaam

  

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lambda
Member since Aug 14th 2002
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Thu Mar-22-01 12:23 PM

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38. "RE: Jerusalem in Islam"
In response to Reply # 34


          

First - You proved my point that Mecca and its contents / surrounding areas have more importance than Jerusalem in Islam. Thank you.

Second - When is the first usage of the term Bayt al-Maqdis? Is it used (exactly as it is) in the Qur'an, or is it used later as a translation of what the Jews living there were calling it? You can translate between two similar languages, and although Arabic may be similar to Hebrew and Aramaic because it is partially derived from those two, there are closer languages, such as Hebrew and Aramaic. You can still translate between Hebrew and Aramaic, though.

Third - I never said that Muslims never conquered Jerusalem. I said that Palestinian Muslims never had an autonomous state with its capital in Jerusalem. Jerusalem was always controlled by foreign rulers.

Was Jerusalem ever the capital of a Muslim Palestinian nation? Let's look at the major Muslim dynasties,

Umayyad - nope
Abbasid - nope
Fatimid - nope
Ayyubid - nope
Mamluk - nope
Ottoman - nope

  

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lambda
Member since Aug 14th 2002
72 posts
Thu Mar-22-01 12:00 PM

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35. "RE: Jerusalem in Islam"
In response to Reply # 32


          

Here are responses to your points:

First - There is obviously more of a reverence for Mecca than Jerusalem in Islam. Is it a pillar of Islam to take a hajj to Jerusalem?



Second/Third/Fourth - I don't care much about the change of the Qibla, I was just pointing out that before Muhammed started killing/enslaving Jews, mosques pointed towards Jerusalem. Maybe that wasn't the *cause* of the change in the Qibla, I'm no expert on that stuff to tell you.

Fifth - The term Jew comes from the Hebrew Yehudi, literally meaning "one from Yehudah (Judah)". However, in usage, it is not constricted to people descended from Yehudah. In the Bible it is used to describe people that are expressly not (in the genealogies) from Yehudah.

How did the Jews stray from not assigning partners to God? Judaism is the most monotheistic religion that exists.

Your idea about Yitzchak/Yishmael is not really that valid. Many important Rabbis were not descended from Yitzchak. In fact, the person considered to be *the* most important Rabbi of the Talmud, Rebbe Akiva, was the son of a convert who was from a tribe (I forget which) that did terrible things to the Jews.

Judaism is based on the idea of national revelation. At Sinai, every Jew present heard God's voice, not just Moses. There is a story about when Muhammed said he had a revelation from an angel, some Jews asked him,

"Did anyone else see this vision with you?"

And when they found out it was a personal thing, they paid it no attention. That is the reason why Jews don't accept Islam, it disagrees with something they *know* to be true, from national experience.

There were Jews in Medina who were killed by Muhammed, but I'm not sure you were denying that. That Armenian traveller I mentioned earlier said that the rift between Muslims and Jews occurred later than the Qur'an does, but I'm not sure what you have to say about that either.

  

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Yusuf

Thu Mar-22-01 12:11 PM

  
36. "RE: Jerusalem in Islam"
In response to Reply # 35


          

Once again, you're not a scholar on the subject or even near being one, yet you speak on it like you are. Sad.

  

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lambda
Member since Aug 14th 2002
72 posts
Thu Mar-22-01 12:14 PM

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37. "RE: Jerusalem in Islam"
In response to Reply # 36


          

I said I'm not a scholar on the orientation of the Qibla. Are you? Have you gone to every ancient mosque and measured its Qibla?

Most people rely on other people to tell them things, whether it be Muslim web sites or other sources.

  

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Yusuf

Thu Mar-22-01 12:24 PM

  
39. "RE: Jerusalem in Islam"
In response to Reply # 37


          

Your lack of knowledge of Islam is evident though. The history of the Qiblah, Mecca, and Jerusalem is well understood and explained by the Scholars of Islam. Therefore, I can use them as a source. This is a matter in Islam that has been understood for hundreds of years, yet you persist like it is a challenge or hurdle against Islam. This is what happens when you study something based on the writings of people who despise and hate what you are studying - you get caught up in a simple matter that is, in reality, already well understood. Don't make things harder than what they are by trying to create problems or conflicts that don't exist. This will lead you no where, unless, of course, that is where you are comfortable at.

  

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Yusuf

Thu Mar-22-01 12:28 PM

  
40. "RE: Jerusalem in Islam"
In response to Reply # 39


          

By the way, until recently, Muslims used to visit Jerusalem and Medina before and/or after they made Hajj. Now most Muslims only visit Medina because they aren't able to go to Jerusalem. Why go to an insignificant place?

  

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lambda
Member since Aug 14th 2002
72 posts
Thu Mar-22-01 12:38 PM

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41. "RE: Jerusalem in Islam"
In response to Reply # 39


          

I was talking about the change of the Qiblah as a possible change of Jerusalem's status in Islam, not that Muslims don't think it happened. Muslims obviously have a different interpretation of the event.

  

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abduhu
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Thu Mar-22-01 01:16 PM

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42. "RE: Jerusalem in Islam"
In response to Reply # 35


          


bismillah


>How did the Jews stray from
>not assigning partners to God?
>Judaism is the most monotheistic
>religion that exists.

according to the bible that you have already used as a reference), when God saved the hebrews from pharoah by splitting the sea, they asked for a golden calf to worship immediately after getting settled.
>
>Your idea about Yitzchak/Yishmael is not
>really that valid.

this is the same idea that is in the bible, correct?


>There
>is a story about when
>Muhammed said he had a
>revelation from an angel, some
>Jews asked him,
>
>"Did anyone else see this vision
>with you?"
>
>And when they found out it
>was a personal thing, they
>paid it no attention. That
>is the reason why Jews
>don't accept Islam, it disagrees
>with something they *know* to
>be true, from national experience.

what story are you talking about?


>There were Jews in Medina who
>were killed by Muhammed,

they broke a truce. it was their own fault.


Allah says about Truth and Falsehood in The Qur'an:
21:18 Nay! We hurl The Truth against falsehood, and it knocks out it's brain, and behold, falsehood perishes! Ah! woe be to you for the false things you ascribe.

Allah says about Man in The Qur'an:
10:12 When trouble toucheth a man, He crieth unto Us (in all postures)- lying down on his side, or sitting, or standing. But when We have solved his trouble, he passeth on his way as if he had never cried to Us for a trouble that touched him! thus do the deeds of transgressors seem fair in their eyes!
10:19 Mankind was but one nation, but differed (later). Had it not been for a word that went forth before from thy Lord, their differences would have been settled between them.
10:22 He it is Who enableth you to traverse through land and sea; so that ye even board ships;- they sail with them with a favourable wind, and they rejoice thereat; then comes a stormy wind and the waves come to them from all sides, and they think they are being overwhelmed: they cry unto Allah, sincerely offering (their) duty unto Him saying, "If thou dost deliver us from this, we shall truly show our gratitude!"
10:23 But when he delivereth them, behold! they transgress insolently through the earth in defiance of right! O mankind! your insolence is against your own souls,- an enjoyment of the life of the present: in the end, to Us is your return, and We shall show you the truth of all that ye did.

subhakallahumma wabihamdika ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa attuubu ilaika

  

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lambda
Member since Aug 14th 2002
72 posts
Thu Mar-22-01 01:40 PM

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43. "RE: Jerusalem in Islam"
In response to Reply # 42


          

I'm not sure of the source of that story, I just heard it in a talk by a Rabbi on national revelation. He was underlining the importance of national revelation in Judaism. I could find the source for you, if you wish.

Okay, then the Palestinians broke a truce with this latest infitada. Should they all be slaughtered? Of course not.

Regardless, there are problems with killing the Jews of Medina, the groups of them were not all allied. So even if you had problems with the alliances of one, why would you kill the others? It is not clear if the Jews warred against Muhammed, from the accounts I have seen, but there is another question to be asked. If the Jews who were going to be killed could escape death by converting to Islam, isn't this not carrying out a treaty but rather forced conversion? I'm not sure if you want to go into an in-depth discussion of those events, they do seem fairly irrelevant to what we've been talking about.

I can't complain about the Caliphate controlling Jerusalem and religious tolerance, but with the Crusades and the Mamluk/Ottoman periods things started to decline.

  

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lambda
Member since Aug 14th 2002
72 posts
Wed Mar-21-01 10:58 AM

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19. "RE: Remember Baruch?"
In response to Reply # 17


          

That article is ignorant on a number of points:

1) Most of the Zionist organizations in America do not support Meir Kahane's views. Besides the JDL and its relatives/spinoffs, I can't recall any Jewish organization that supports his views.

2) The Israeli public and government do not support Meir Kahane's views. In fact, the Knesset barred Kahane from running for political office when his power was becoming too great.

3) The Israeli government does not support Baruch Goldstein. The Jerusalem Magistrate's Court sentenced a person who glorified Goldstein to 8 months in prison.

4) In Israel it is illegal to donate money to Kahane's Kach party and to another organization, Kahane Chai, or "Kahane Lives". Goldstein was affiliated with Kach.

5) It says that Israeli soldiers liked the way Goldstein handled himself, yet they banned him from coming. This does not make sense.

6) The article misrepresents the concept of a mezuzah. A mezuzah is put up by Orthodox Jews on every entrance to a building or room (save bathrooms), they are not to honour specific people. The 10 commandments are not what is handwritten in them, it is actually two other portions from the Torah, including some of the Shema, a Jewish prayer. I'm not competent enough in the laws of mezuzot to know whether or not a mezuzah would be required at that particular entrance, but I wouldn't see it as out of the ordinary even if it wasn't required. I have not been able to find anything on the circumstances of this anywhere on the web.

7) Baruch Goldstein is not the person in charge of Jewish holy sites. If the person in charge of Jewish holy sites started denying that the Muslims have a connection to the Dome of the Rock, then we might be in trouble. I was pointing out, with the Mufti's comments, that the person in charge of Muslim holy sites is denying that there are any Jewish holy sites or even any Jewish connections in Jerusalem, so how can we expect fair treatment of them by a potential Palestinian government?

  

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Eli B

Wed Mar-21-01 10:07 PM

  
25. "RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians"
In response to Reply # 15


          

>There is no reason to believe
>that the Palestinians would respect
>Jewish and Christian holy places.
>If you remember what happened
>when Jordan had control of
>East Jerusalem, you would know
>this. What the Palestinians recently
>did in Nablus is also
>in violation of the Oslo
>Accords.

First of all, you can't assume what the Palestinians will do when in control of East Jerusalem based on Jordan's actions. Palestinians are Palestinians and Jordanians are Jordanians, each with their own interests. 2ndly, it is Zionist propaganda that has tricked you into believing Israel and Christians are on the same page. The American Christian Right Wing only supports Israel for one greedy purpose: to gain AIPAC's support for Republican candidates. Israel and the Religious Right pretend that they have common interests, but they don't. The Religious Right only wants political gain, and Israel is in it to win a propaganda, public opinion war. Too bad they are badly losing the moral war that will only cost them dearly on Judgement Day.
The majority of Christians in Palestine are Palestinians and stand in solidarity with Palestinian Muslims against the illegal and immoral Israeli occupation. Let me remind you that the Palestinian people and govt. deeply respect the Palestinian Christian community and Christian history and culture deeply rooted in Palestine. Govt. Ministers and Arafat himself always have attended Christmas Mass since Bethlehem was rightly returned to the Palestinians. Don't get me wrong, I do have personal problems w/Arafat and the current govt., but when it comes to Christians, they have shown the utmost respect.
About the Oslo Accords, let me remind you that building settlements is not only a violation of the Oslo Accords, but a violation of International Law. The attack in Nablus occurred in the heat of the moment when hatred ran rampant when a mob overran and overpowered Palestinian police there to protect the shrine. But if Israel completely withdraws from Occupied Palestine and treats the Palestinians with respect and as real human beings, old wounds will eventually heal and Jews will not have to worry about having their shrines destroyed. It is Israel that could potentially collapse Al Aqsa Mosque by allowing tunnels and archaelogical digs to go on under the Mosque.

Bottom Line: A complete and full Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip, freedom and independence for Palestine, and mutual respect for human rights, religious rights and the people will only solve the problem. And don't give me the "look at all the concessions Israel has made" excuse. It is the Palestinians who have conceded that they only want 22% of historical Palestine to build their own state on. And although the Palestinians have committed some "terrorist" actions, Occupation of a group of people is not exactly a friendly job, I would even go so far to say that it, too, is terrorism at its highest form. Top that off with a war criminal (Sharon) as your leader????



  

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lambda
Member since Aug 14th 2002
72 posts
Thu Mar-22-01 02:54 AM

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26. "RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians"
In response to Reply # 25


          

Yasser Arafat is a terrorist who isn't even a Palestinian, I doubt you want to start comparing leaders.

As far as Palestinians respecting Jewish holy sites, you must've missed the quote by the Mufti, who would be in charge of holy sites in a PA state. He said that none exist, that there is no Jewish connection to Jerusalem at any point in history. On the contrary, there has never been an Arab state that had its capital in Jerusalem.

Before the PA appointed a mufti, they continued to use the Jordanian waqf, an authority responsible for those things done to Jews living in Jerusalem. If the PA really opposed what happened earlier, why would they continue the waqf's authority. They have no objection to ousting him last decade for political reasons themselves, so why not then? It is like the German government after World War 2 keeping top Nazi officials in power, while saying they are opposed to their actions.

  

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Gyrofrog
Charter member
1529 posts
Thu Mar-22-01 06:54 AM

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27. "RE: Palestinians and Israeli-Arabs?"
In response to Reply # 26


          

Greetings,

What is the difference between Palestinians and Israeli-Arabs (and other Arabs for that matter)? Are Israeli-Arabs those who conceded to the creation of the Israeli state and chose to remain there as Israeli citizens, while Palestinians rejected this? Or are Palestinians, as a group, identified as people that historically came from ancient Philistine (from which, I think, the name Palestine is derived), whereas Arabs are historically from the land to the south?

Just wondering, because in news reports I've seen references to both, and wondered why one group (the Palestinians) were in one situation, while another group (Israeli Arabs) were in quite a different situation, and why Israel treats each group differently? If there's a link to this somewhere else on the web, that would be great...

Thanx...

--Joe C
"Gyrofrog"
Have sax, will woodshed
-----
http://www.gyrofrog.com

  

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abduhu
Charter member
1734 posts
Thu Mar-22-01 07:55 AM

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29. "RE: Palestinians and Israeli-Arabs?"
In response to Reply # 27


          

bismillah

good question. will try to answer as best as i can(somebody help me!)


>Greetings,
>
>What is the difference between Palestinians
>and Israeli-Arabs (and other Arabs
>for that matter)?

palestinians are muslims and christians, but mostly muslim.(someone correct me if im wrong, and dont drop an elbow on me, please.)
israeli arabs are jews.

but they all are arabs, palestinian, saudi, israeli, yemeni: arabs!

>Are
>Israeli-Arabs those who conceded to
>the creation of the Israeli
>state and chose to remain
>there as Israeli citizens, while
>Palestinians rejected this?

oh no. the europeans israelis are the main force behind this.

>Or
>are Palestinians, as a group,
>identified as people that historically
>came from ancient Philistine (from
>which, I think, the name
>Palestine is derived), whereas Arabs
>are historically from the land
>to the south?

correct, but at some point in time the arabs mixed w/ them.


>
>Just wondering, because in news reports
>I've seen references to both,
>and wondered why one group
>(the Palestinians) were in one
>situation, while another group (Israeli
>Arabs) were in quite a
>different situation, and why Israel
>treats each group differently?

b/c one group is muslim, and the other is jewish/israeli.

>If there's a link to
>this somewhere else on the
>web, that would be great...

not yet.


Allah says about Truth and Falsehood in The Qur'an:
21:18 Nay! We hurl The Truth against falsehood, and it knocks out it's brain, and behold, falsehood perishes! Ah! woe be to you for the false things you ascribe.

Allah says about Man in The Qur'an:
10:12 When trouble toucheth a man, He crieth unto Us (in all postures)- lying down on his side, or sitting, or standing. But when We have solved his trouble, he passeth on his way as if he had never cried to Us for a trouble that touched him! thus do the deeds of transgressors seem fair in their eyes!
10:19 Mankind was but one nation, but differed (later). Had it not been for a word that went forth before from thy Lord, their differences would have been settled between them.
10:22 He it is Who enableth you to traverse through land and sea; so that ye even board ships;- they sail with them with a favourable wind, and they rejoice thereat; then comes a stormy wind and the waves come to them from all sides, and they think they are being overwhelmed: they cry unto Allah, sincerely offering (their) duty unto Him saying, "If thou dost deliver us from this, we shall truly show our gratitude!"
10:23 But when he delivereth them, behold! they transgress insolently through the earth in defiance of right! O mankind! your insolence is against your own souls,- an enjoyment of the life of the present: in the end, to Us is your return, and We shall show you the truth of all that ye did.

subhakallahumma wabihamdika ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa attuubu ilaika

  

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Gyrofrog
Charter member
1529 posts
Thu Mar-22-01 08:03 AM

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30. "RE: Palestinians and Israeli-Arabs?"
In response to Reply # 29


          

Thanx for the response...

>palestinians are muslims and christians, but
>mostly muslim.(someone correct me if
>im wrong, and dont drop
>an elbow on me, please.)
>
>israeli arabs are jews.

Well, wouldn't they just be considered "Jews" as far as the State of Israel is concerend? If not then why are they segregated? (Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the Israeli Arabs live in separate neighborhoods.)

>>Are
>>Israeli-Arabs those who conceded to
>>the creation of the Israeli
>>state and chose to remain
>>there as Israeli citizens, while
>>Palestinians rejected this?
>
>oh no. the europeans israelis are
>the main force behind this.

I wasn't really implying otherwise, so let me re-phrase. I don't mean that the Israeli Arabs were behind the creation of Israel, I was suggesting that perhaps they did not oppose the creation of the State of Israel (because they're secular Arabs, or for some other reason, I don't know). So, they stayed put, and as such became Israeli citizens. Hence, Israeli Arabs. (Again this is all a guess.)

> >Or
>>are Palestinians, as a group,
>>identified as people that historically
>>came from ancient Philistine (from
>>which, I think, the name
>>Palestine is derived), whereas Arabs
>>are historically from the land
>>to the south?
>
>correct, but at some point in
>time the arabs mixed w/
>them.

Right, so then what's the major distinction between Palestinians and Arabs?

Aren't Jordanians (or many Jordanians, incl. the late King Hussein) also considered Palestinian, as opposed to Arab (again, whatever that difference may be)?

--Joe C
"Gyrofrog"
Have sax, will woodshed
-----
http://www.gyrofrog.com

  

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abduhu
Charter member
1734 posts
Thu Mar-22-01 08:12 AM

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31. "RE: OK SO YOU GOT ME!!"
In response to Reply # 30


          

bismillah

ill have to let my more knowledgeable okayplayers take over now.
that was the extent of my knowledgeabout that.


but im sure if you did a search on those specific terms you are questioning, you could arrive at your answer, but i could be wrong.
try yahoo.com., man youll be amazed at what you find when you do a search.

out.

Allah says about Truth and Falsehood in The Qur'an:
21:18 Nay! We hurl The Truth against falsehood, and it knocks out it's brain, and behold, falsehood perishes! Ah! woe be to you for the false things you ascribe.

Allah says about Man in The Qur'an:
10:12 When trouble toucheth a man, He crieth unto Us (in all postures)- lying down on his side, or sitting, or standing. But when We have solved his trouble, he passeth on his way as if he had never cried to Us for a trouble that touched him! thus do the deeds of transgressors seem fair in their eyes!
10:19 Mankind was but one nation, but differed (later). Had it not been for a word that went forth before from thy Lord, their differences would have been settled between them.
10:22 He it is Who enableth you to traverse through land and sea; so that ye even board ships;- they sail with them with a favourable wind, and they rejoice thereat; then comes a stormy wind and the waves come to them from all sides, and they think they are being overwhelmed: they cry unto Allah, sincerely offering (their) duty unto Him saying, "If thou dost deliver us from this, we shall truly show our gratitude!"
10:23 But when he delivereth them, behold! they transgress insolently through the earth in defiance of right! O mankind! your insolence is against your own souls,- an enjoyment of the life of the present: in the end, to Us is your return, and We shall show you the truth of all that ye did.

subhakallahumma wabihamdika ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa attuubu ilaika

  

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Eli B

Thu Mar-22-01 02:52 PM

  
44. "RE: OK SO YOU GOT ME!!"
In response to Reply # 31


          

Let me clarify things.

First off Israeli Arabs and Palestinians are the same people. The West Bank and the Gaza Strip are not recognized to be a part of Israel, although they are both under an Israeli-military occupation. Therefore, the Palestinians living in the WB and GS are called Palestinians, while Israeli Arabs are Palestinians who were not forced out of the country or who fled (forced out vs. fled is still being debated, but I believe a huge majority were forced out by being threatened by Israeli forces w/death, but let's not got into that). Anyway, so they stayed in the country after Israel declared independence and eventually became Israeli citizens. Israeli Arabs ARE NOT Jews, they are mostly Muslim and some are Christian, just as the Palestinians in the WB and GS. However Israeli Arabs face discrimination from the Jews and are basically treated as blacks were/are treated in the American South.

As for the confusion on Arabs, Palestinians, etc.: The Arabs came from Arabia, what is today Saudi Arabia. All other Arab countries, including Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Palestine, etc. had their own groups of people. When the Muslim empire grew and conquered Palestine, Egypt, etc. The indigenous people there became Arabized, adopted Arabic culture, language, etc. The vast majority of them also became Muslims. Meanwhile, some remained Christian (as Jesus Christ lived there back during his time, and many followed him), and a smaller minority remained Jewish. At this time, Palestinians coexisted for hundreds of years, with only minor distinction between Christians, Muslims, and Jews. Muslims certainly had an advantage, however, Christian and Jewish Palestinians were treated relatively well, compared to how they were treated by the Euros. But you must keep in mind, they were treated relatively well by the standards of the years 700-1200 AD, not by the standards of 2001. During the Crusades, Jerusalem was maintained as a Holy City by Muslims and it was the main city Muslims and European Christians fought over during the Crusades, and was liberated from Euro Control by the great Arab/Muslim leader Saladin, who has a street named for him in Jerusalm (Arabic: Shareh Salah id-Din (Saladin St. in English)).

  

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AZ
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12930 posts
Thu Mar-22-01 06:57 AM

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28. "RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians"
In response to Reply # 26


          

>Yasser Arafat is a terrorist who
>isn't even a Palestinian, I
>doubt you want to start
>comparing leaders.
>
Yes I would like to start comparing leaders. You go first.

  

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Eli B

Thu Mar-22-01 03:08 PM

  
45. "RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians"
In response to Reply # 26


          

>Yasser Arafat is a terrorist who
>isn't even a Palestinian, I
>doubt you want to start
>comparing leaders.

I admitted that I have personal problems with Arafat and I'm not a big fan of his. Sure he was responsible for what some would call terrorist actions, but so has Ariel Sharon (examples: Sabra and Shatilla Massacres in Lebanon, and the 1956 massacre of Palestinian civilians whom he left for dead under the rubble of destroyed houses, the name of the massacre escapes me right now). He is even despised by many, many Israeli and American Jews. He was not elected because people liked him or agree with his policies, he was elected because people were so disappointed with Barak.
>
>As far as Palestinians respecting Jewish
>holy sites, you must've missed
>the quote by the Mufti,
>who would be in charge
>of holy sites in a
>PA state. He said that
>none exist, that there is
>no Jewish connection to Jerusalem
>at any point in history.
>On the contrary, there has
>never been an Arab state
>that had its capital in
>Jerusalem.
>
Jews have said the same thing as well. They said that Arabs have no connection to the city of Jerusalem. A false statement, so we'll call it even. But let me point out two things: 1)an American rabbi even suggested that Jewish law does not explicity call for Jewish control of Jerusalem. 2)The reason why "Arabs don't have a connection to Jerusalem" is a false statement. First off, the Dome of the Rock is where Muhammad ascended to heaven from. This fact alone makes Jerusalme holy to Muslims. There are also tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arab Christians who revere the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem as a holy site because it is the site where Christ was buried and resurrected. Also, historically, the Arab-Muslim warrior Saladin, who considered the city holy to Muslims, liberated Jerusalem from the European Christians. During Muslim rule of Jerusalem before the Arab-Isreli conflict (which only started in the 1900s), Jews (and Christians) did have free access to Jerusalem. If peace is achieved and old wounds are healed and mutual respect is show between the 2 people, I'm sure equal access to Jerusalem will once again be possible.



  

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lambda
Member since Aug 14th 2002
72 posts
Thu Mar-22-01 03:24 PM

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46. "RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians"
In response to Reply # 45


          

If you want to learn what Judaism thinks about giving up Jewish land, ask a Rav. I haven't heard of a Rav who interpreted Halacha in the way you describe, so if you could find a reference, then maybe it would help.

I wasn't saying that Muslims don't revere Jerusalem, I simply said that no Palestinian state has existed with Jerusalem as its capital. That's a separate issue from Muslim importance.

The PA/PLO is not the Ottoman empire. Mutual access to Jerusalem is happening right now.

  

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Eli B

Thu Mar-22-01 10:36 PM

  
47. "RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians"
In response to Reply # 46


          

>I haven't heard of a
>Rav who interpreted Halacha in
>the way you describe, so
>if you could find a
>reference, then maybe it would
>help.

It was a specific rabbi, don't remember his name, but I think he was a San Francisco rabbi and it made news in the SF Chronicle, I think.
>
>I wasn't saying that Muslims don't
>revere Jerusalem, I simply said
>that no Palestinian state has
>existed with Jerusalem as its
>capital. That's a separate issue
>from Muslim importance.

On Palestinian statehood: The Palestinians realized a sense of nationalism way back during WWI when much of the rest of the so-called 3rd World was also discovering its yearning to become independent. Nations in Africa, Asia, and the Middle East were fighting their imperial colonists. The same happened with the Arabs, including Palestine. The Arabs pledged their support to help Britain dislodge the Ottoman Turks in return for independence. And of course, the British don't keep their promise and Britain takes control of Palestine thanks to a League of Nations conspiracy to keep the colonial world order in place. Eventually most Arabs did gain their independence, and the Palestinians even revolted against Britain from 1936-1939 to try to gain their independence. The British put down the revolt and exiled the Palestinian leadership, throwing the Palestinian independence movement into disarray. This of course made it much easier for the Zionists to dispossess the Palestinians of their land and illegally take over much more territory than the UN gave them in the Partition of Palestine "solution" before one Arab soldier even stepped foot into Israel. This of course contradicts the false facts that the Arabs invaded Israel first in the 1948 War. The Arabs "invaded" in May 1948, but Zionist forces were busy taking over Palestinian land and killing Palestinians before May 1948, such as the infamous Deir Yassin massacre of April 1948. Because the Palestinian leadership was still in exile, the other Arab armies had to "invade" Israel to protect the Palestinians. The Palestinian independence movement did not recover until the formation of the PLO in the mid-1960s. Later, Jordan, who had controlled the West Bank and East Jerusalem until Israel illegally captured the WB and E. Jerusalem in 1967, gave up their rights to a future settlement regarding the WB and Jerusalem to the Palestinians.

>The PA/PLO is not the Ottoman
>empire. Mutual access to Jerusalem
>is happening right now.

That may be true, but the Arab residents of Jerusalem who were a majority of East Jerusalem until illegal Jewish settlements were built may have Israeli citizenship, but are they treated equally? The answer is obviously no, just as Israeli-Arabs (Palestinians with Israeli citizenship) are not treated equally. Israel neglects the Arab neighborhoods, discriminates against Jerusalem's Arab residents with regards to social and municipal services, while Jewish West Jerusalem gets much of the attention. Religious access is just one element of the Jerusalem debate. By allowing the Palestinians to have sovereignty over East Jerusalem's Arab neighborhoods and Muslim and Christian holy sites, the Arabs in Jerusalem will actually have a government that would theoretically
have an interest in improving the everyday lives of Arab East Jerusalem. Israel does not have an interest in improving the lives of non-Jews by definition. Israel is a Jewish state, and thus, cannot be a democracy. It gives preferential treatment and a majority of its attention to Jews. And even then, not all Jews. I was once in a mall in W. Jerusalem and the janitors and people who were sweeping the floors were Ethiopian Jews. Israel pretended it was carrying out a humanitarian mission by transporting the Ethiopian Jews to Israel a few years back. But they were actually bringing in cheap labor. I know it's sad to say, but it's the truth. That is what Zionism/Israel is. It's power base was raised in an atmosphere of European colonialism, racism, and imperialism. It is European Jews who control the institutions, the govt., the state of Israel. What is the state? Dead Prez explains what the state is.
Back to Palestinian control of Jerusalem. If this were to happen, the city WOULD NOT be physically divided. It would serve as the capital of two countries. Since Israel does not treat Arab Jerusalemites with equality compared to Jewish Jerusalemites, let the Palestinians offer their own people the social, civil and municipal services, and let the Palestinians control the relevant religious sites; that is the Muslim and Christian sites.

  

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lambda
Member since Aug 14th 2002
72 posts
Fri Mar-23-01 02:58 AM

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48. "RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians"
In response to Reply # 47


          

There was actually a plan for a Palestinian state and a Jewish state, which the Arabs rejected. The UN went ahead without a Palestinian state and created a Jewish state.

What are you talking about with Jerusalem? Since the 1840s, (East and West) Jerusalem has had a Jewish majority, obviously excluding the Jordanian days. It is completely wrong to think of East Jerusalem as being Arab, and West Jerusalem as being Jewish. West Jerusalem didn't exist in the 1840s, it was an expansion later. The only time it was Arab was when Jordan expelled all of the Jews during their control of Jerusalem.

Barak already offered such a plan to Arafat, but Arafat declined. It is very unlikely that Sharon will even think of giving Arafat the same thing, because of his own politics and the fact that very few citizens want it.

The whole point of Israel's establishment is that it was to be a homeland for the Jews. While I disagree with much of the messianic importance that the original secular Zionists placed on the formation of a state, I can't deny the importance of having access to the land of Israel.

  

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Eli B

Fri Mar-23-01 10:09 PM

  
49. "RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians"
In response to Reply # 48


          

>There was actually a plan for
>a Palestinian state and a
>Jewish state, which the Arabs
>rejected. The UN went ahead
>without a Palestinian state and
>created a Jewish state.

Not true. The UN did not "go ahead without a Palestinian state." Sure the Arabs rejected it, because although they were an overwhelming majority of the population of Palestine, the UN Partition plan gave them about 48% of the land of Palestine, while Jews who were vastly outnumbered, population-wise, got 52% of the land to create Israel. Furthermore, the Zionist underground terrorist groups who later became the Israeli Army, were being supported financially and militarily (with military equipment) by the West, primarily the US. And since the Palestinians had no standing army and leadership in exile since the end of the 1936-39 revolt, the Zionist military went around taking over land that was supposed to become Palestine even before the Arab armies "invaded" Israel (in May 1948). In April 1948, the Zionist forces massacred 250 lightly-armed villagers in Deir Yassin, then went on to other majority-Palestinian towns and villages and intimidated them with loudspeakers saying if they didn't leave, they would face the same fate as the Deir Yassin villagers. My grandparents, and older aunts and uncles were among those who had to make this "choice." When the Palestinian villagers fled, the Zionists, with their crafty, yet sneaky, public relations machine told the world, "Look, there are no Palestinians living in the land we're taking over, so we'll just add it to the land we're already creating Israel with." Don't get me wrong. It wasn't all Israel's fault. Egypt, which took over the Gaza Strip, and Jordan, which took over the West Bank, did nothing to help the Palestinians become an independent nation, either.
>
>What are you talking about with
>Jerusalem? Since the 1840s, (East
>and West) Jerusalem has had
>a Jewish majority, obviously excluding
>the Jordanian days. It is
>completely wrong to think of
>East Jerusalem as being Arab,
>and West Jerusalem as being
>Jewish. West Jerusalem didn't exist
>in the 1840s, it was
>an expansion later. The only
>time it was Arab was
>when Jordan expelled all of
>the Jews during their control
>of Jerusalem.

Excuse me. Where did you get these twisted "facts" from? Jerusalem had a Jewish majority since the 1840s??????? I know it was Jerusalem, not east and west Jerusalem, but Jerusalem DID NOT have a Jewish majority since the 1840s. There were only a handful of Jews in the WHOLE COUNTRY of Palestine since the 1840s up until the Jewish immigration started well into the 1900s, much of it illegally, mind you. Don't get me wrong. The handful of Jews peacefully coexisted with Palestinians Muslims and Christians since the 1840s and even considered themselves Palestinians and contributed much to Palestine before the Arab-Israeli conflict. The Jews didn't even think of creating a "homeland" in Palestinian until it was brought up in 1898 at a world zionist meeting. And even after that, it was hard for them to get the plan off the ground. It was this meeting that destroyed the peaceful coexistence between Palestinian Arabs and Palestinians Jews and the distinction between Arab and Jew came into play. The European Jews, who obviously lived in Europe, at a time of rampant, racist colonialism poisoned the Palestinian atmosphere with their idea of Jewish racist colonialism and fooled most Palestinian Jews to buy into the idea of Zionist, which today is one of the last remnants of pre-20th Century colonialism. Why is European colonialism universally considered wrong, but Zionism considered a noble cause? Is it because of the guilt of the Holocaust? Is it because of the crafty Zionist PR machine?
>
>The whole point of Israel's establishment
>is that it was to
>be a homeland for the
>Jews. While I disagree with
>much of the messianic importance
>that the original secular Zionists
>placed on the formation of
>a state, I can't deny
>the importance of having access
>to the land of Israel.

Israel's original intention was to extend from the Nile River in Egypt to the Euphrates in Iraq. Even if it wasn't that extreme, many quotes (that I'll paraphrase) prove that Israel planned on expansionism. They, until recently occupied Southern Lebanon, still occupy Syria's Golan Heights, and Palestine (The West Bank and Gaza Strip) all under the false pretense of security. Let's see Theodor Herzl, the founder of zionism, said something like, "Give us a small piece of land in Palestine, the rest we shall manage for ourselves." Even as recently as the late 1960s, the Israeli general Moshe Dayan said, "One day Israel will extend well into the Jordan valley, even into central Syria or the Euphrates." These are well documented quotes, and may not be acurate word for word, but you get the jist. Even the symbolism of the Israeli flag proves this: the two blue stripes across the top and bottom of the Israeli flag are supposed to represent the Nile River (in Egypt) and the Euphrates River (in Iraq).



  

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lambda
Member since Aug 14th 2002
72 posts
Sat Mar-24-01 06:40 AM

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50. "RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians"
In response to Reply # 49


          

It is well-known that Israel's borders are larger than its original ones. This came about through wars against Israel where Israel took land for strategic purposes and later one the war. A country in such a situation has no compulsion to give it back to anyone.

At Deir Yassin, they had a truck with a loudspeaker too, and asked everyone to leave, or else they would have to engage in combat with them. The citizens that later got killed in fighting did not want to leave, so they got in a battle with the Israeli army, which the Israeli army won.

The number of 250 dead isn't a very accurate one, and is much higher than even what the Arabs have said. Arabs originally said 110 out of 1000, and discussions with every family available from the village caused Bir Zeit University to reach the conclusion of 107 dead, and that there were actually soldiers there. The Israeli army actually evacuated many civilians from the fighting, and brought them to Jerusalem. This was during the Sabbath too.

The Palestinian leaders manufactured a claim of rape in order to get support from the other Arab countries. Hazam Nusseibi, a Palestinian broadcaster, admitted being told by Hussein Khalidi to say that Palestinians at Deir Yassin were raped. Hussein was told this by Abu Mahmud, a resident, who said that there was no rape, but they still needed to say that to get support.

These manufactured claims by the Palestinians backfired, as Palestinian villagers left their homes in terror, afraid of being raped. This allowed the Israeli army to take large pieces of land with no fighting at all. If you want to look at massacres, how about the Arab attack on a hospital convoy on its way to Hadassah four days after Deir Yassin? They killed 77 people, who were patients and nurses, and one was even the director of the hospital.

To quote the Secretary-General of the Arab League at the time, Azzam Pasha, “The Arabs intend to conduct a war of extermination and momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.” This is from a BBC interview on May 15, 1948.

Your statements regarding Jerusalem's population are unfounded. A multitude of censuses indicate that Jerusalem has had a Jewish majority since the 1840s.

Numbers given as Jews / Muslims / Christians:

1844 - 7120 / 5000 / 3360
1876 - 12 000 / 7560 / 5470
1896 - 28 112 / 8560 / 8748
1922 - 33 971 / 13 413 / 14 699
1931 - 51 222 / 19 894 / 19 335
1948 - 100 000 / 40 000 / 25 000

Those numbers are from the Turkish Census of 1844, The Living Guide Indicator de la Terre-Sainte, the Calendar of Palestine 1895-1896, the British Mandate Census of 1922, E. Mills' Census of Palestine, and "Jerusalam - The Old City", by Z. Vilnay.

After that I'm sure you are well aware that Jerusalem has had a Jewish majority.

  

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Eli B

Sat Mar-24-01 10:13 PM

  
51. "RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians"
In response to Reply # 50


          

>It is well-known that Israel's borders
>are larger than its original
>ones. This came about through
>wars against Israel where Israel
>took land for strategic purposes
>and later one the war.
>A country in such a
>situation has no compulsion to
>give it back to anyone.

In reading this post, and other posts you have put up, it seems, at least to me, that you think "Might makes Right." Can you imagine what kind of world we would live in if Might makes Right? First of all, Hitler would be right to take over Poland and other European countries, because his army would've been mightier than the others. And therefore, it would be no one else's business to stop him, because his might made him right. Iraq would've been right in taking over Kuwait, and it would be no one else's business either, for the same reason. But that's not the way the world works. That's why it is ILLEGAL TO TAKE OVER LAND BY FORCE.......REGARDLESS OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES. This includes Israel, yet Israel seems to think it is exempt from these rules. Is Israel special? Is Israel above the law? I don't think so. That's why Israel should withdraw fully from the West Bank, including East Jerusalem (which was taken by force) and the Gaza Strip.
>
>At Deir Yassin, they had a
>truck with a loudspeaker too,
>and asked everyone to leave,
>or else they would have
>to engage in combat with
>them. The citizens that later
>got killed in fighting did
>not want to leave, so
>they got in a battle
>with the Israeli army, which
>the Israeli army won.

Gee, those unreasonable Palestinians. Didn't want to leave THEIR OWN LAND. That's what they get for wanting to stay in their own land and own homes. If someone came to your land, land your family has owned for centuries, land your great, great, grandparents lived in, land that eventually got passed down to you, you have a right to stay there and no one has a right to come with a loudspeaker, tell you to leave, or die. WHAT A BUNCH OF CRAP!!! DON'T BE RIDICULOUS!!!! Look at it from a reasonable point of view.

> and that there
>were actually soldiers there. The
>Israeli army actually evacuated many
>civilians from the fighting, and
>brought them to Jerusalem. This
>was during the Sabbath too.
>
>
>The Palestinian leaders manufactured a claim
>of rape in order to
>get support from the other
>Arab countries. Hazam Nusseibi, a
>Palestinian broadcaster, admitted being told
>by Hussein Khalidi to say
>that Palestinians at Deir Yassin
>were raped. Hussein was told
>this by Abu Mahmud, a
>resident, who said that there
>was no rape, but they
>still needed to say that
>to get support.


Manufactured claims by the Palestinians? I don't think so. One of the major Israeli newspapers, the Yediot Aharonot, in its April 4, 1972 issue interviewed an Israeli eyewitness, Col. Meir Pa'el, on the "manufactured claim" of the Deir Yassin massacre. Some of his words: "They also shot everyone they saw in the houses, including women and children—indeed commanders made no attempt to check the disgraceful acts of slaughter."..."In the meantime some 25 men...were loaded onto a freight truck and At the end of the parade, they were taken to a stone quarry...and shot in cold blood."
Is that what you meant when you said the Israeli army actually evacuated some civilians and brought them to Jerusalem?

Pa'el went on to say: "the men of started a shameful massacre of the...men, women, old people, and children, without distinction, standing them against walls and in corners in the houses." All these claims were made by an Israeli military eyewitness, and he added that there is photographic evidence of this. So these sadistic and brutal actions did happen to Deir Yassin Palestinians and were not manufactured by the Palestinians as you claim. These events were spread by Israelis using loudspeakers in other Palestinian towns and villages to create panic among the Palestinians, forcing them to flee.

>Your statements regarding Jerusalem's population are
>unfounded. A multitude of censuses
>indicate that Jerusalem has had
>a Jewish majority since the
>1840s.
>
>Numbers given as Jews / Muslims
>/ Christians:
>
>1844 - 7120 / 5000 /
>3360
>1876 - 12 000 / 7560
>/ 5470
>1896 - 28 112 / 8560
>/ 8748
>1922 - 33 971 / 13
>413 / 14 699
>1931 - 51 222 / 19
>894 / 19 335
>1948 - 100 000 / 40
>000 / 25 000
>
>Those numbers are from the Turkish
>Census of 1844, The Living
>Guide Indicator de la Terre-Sainte,
>the Calendar of Palestine 1895-1896,
>the British Mandate Census of
>1922, E. Mills' Census of
>Palestine, and "Jerusalam - The
>Old City", by Z. Vilnay.
>
>
>After that I'm sure you are
>well aware that Jerusalem has
>had a Jewish majority.

According to your numbers, Jews did have a RELIGIOUS majority in Jerusalem. Prior to Zionism, Palestinian Christians, Muslims, and Jews coexisted peacefully in Palestine, including Jerusalem. They all considered themselves, first and foremost, Palestinians. However with Zionism poisoning the coexistence of Palestinians regardless of faith, a distinction was made between Jews and Palestinians (Arab Christians and Muslims). While Jews had the religious majority, based on the ethnic distinctions created by Zionism, Palestinians made up the majority of Jerusalem residents, at least in your first two sets of numbers. In the British census of 1922, some inacurracies did exist. The census did not count Palestinians who may have been abroad at the time of the counting. Therefore, this may have underestimated the number of Palestinians living in Jerusalem. By 1931, mass Jewish immigration to Palestine from Europe was taking place, and a lot of it was ILLEGAL, according to the British Mandate over Palestine. And by 1948, Zionist terrorism and expulsions clearly gave Jews a majority, not only religiously, but now they vastly outnumbered the combined Palestinian Christian and Muslim population in Jerusalem. However, in East Jerusalem, after the 1948 war, Palestinians still made up the majority, until ILLEGAL Jewish settlements tried to create new facts on the ground. These illegal settlements continue today. Since conquest of land by force is illegal, East Jerusalem (taken by force) must be given back to Palestine; the Jewish settlements in and around East Jerusalem are also illegal, and should be dismantled along with all other settlements (which are all illegal) in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. And another reason E. Jerusalem should be given back to the Palestinians is because Palestinian administration of the city would take care of the Palestinian residents of the city, whereas Israeli administration discriminates against and neglects Palestinian parts of the city. Palestinians should also be given control of the relevant (Muslim and Christian) religious sites since most, if not all, Palestinians are either Muslim or Christian.



  

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lambda
Member since Aug 14th 2002
72 posts
Sun Mar-25-01 05:41 AM

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52. "RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians"
In response to Reply # 51


          

Show me where conquest of land by force is prohibited when the other side starts a military conflict with you. The US has recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, but Clinton kept on using his veto to stop the embassy from being moved. Also, the UN Resolution 242 does not refer to Jerusalem as occupied territory, and the person who wrote it has said that many times.

When does Israel restrict access to holy sites? The previous Jordanian government restricted access for both Jews and Christians, and desecrated many Jewish sites. Jerusalem was neglected, and didn't even have many essential municipal services until Israel liberated it.

  

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Eli B

Mon Mar-26-01 03:56 PM

  
53. "RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians"
In response to Reply # 52


          

>Show me where conquest of land
>by force is prohibited when
>the other side starts a
>military conflict with you.

First of all, Israel attacked Palestinians or Arab countries in all the Arab-Israeli wars except in 1973. "The other side" didn't start the conflict with Israel except once. In 1948, the Zionist terrorist forces went around taking over land that was supposed to become part of Palestine, and Deir Yassin was one of the most heinous and infamous massacres and land takeovers of that war. 400 Palestinian villages were wiped off the map in the war. The Palestinians had no standing army and its leaders were exiled by the British about ten years before. Had the other Arab armies not "invaded" Israel in May 1948 to protect the Palestinians, who knows what Israel would've done to the Palestinians. In 1956, Israel invaded Egypt with British and French help. In 1967, Lyndon Johnson wrote in his memoirs that he felt double-crossed by the Israelis after he told them he didn't think an Egyptian attack on Israel was imminent. Israel then attacked Egypt, anyway, then used fake transmissions telling Jordan that Egypt was winning battles, and this drew Jordan into the war. The Arabs did attack Israel in 1973, but Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982.


The
>US has recognized Jerusalem as
>the capital of Israel, but
>Clinton kept on using his
>veto to stop the embassy
>from being moved. Also, the
>UN Resolution 242 does not
>refer to Jerusalem as occupied
>territory, and the person who
>wrote it has said that
>many times.

The official US position on Jerusalem is that negotiations will decide the fate of the city. East Jerusalem should be handed over to the Palestinians because A)Palestinians are either Muslim or Christian and therefore Palestinians should control the Muslim and Christian holy sites in Jerusalem; and B)Israel neglects the Palestinian neighborhoods in Jerusalem, so Palestinian residents there should also be under Palestinian jurisdiction. Again, the Palestinians are not talking about dividing the city physically. It is possible to have joint sovereignty over the city. Yet, Israel thinks that's a problem.
>
>When does Israel restrict access to
>holy sites?

When Palestinians need permits to get into Jerusalem and they are not given the proper permits. That's when.


The previous Jordanian
>government restricted access for both
>Jews and Christians, and desecrated
>many Jewish sites. Jerusalem was
>neglected, and didn't even have
>many essential municipal services until
>Israel liberated it.

That was Jordan. We're talking about Palestinian control of Jerusalem, not Jordanian control. Today, Jewish parts of Jerusalem are doing a lot better than Arab parts. So Israel isn't doing much better when it comes to municipal service in Arab East Jerusalem. But what about the potential desecration of Islamic sites, such as the Al-Aqsa Mosque. Israel is digging tunnels under the Al-Aqsa Mosque which could potentially cause the Mosque to collapse. If Israel thinks it is dealing with Islamic fury now, it would be nothing compared to the fury not only from Palestinians, but from the entire world's Muslims if the Al-Aqsa mosque collapsed. And what about Arab Mosques that were turned into pharmacies and museums. I have pictures as proof.



  

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Eli B

Mon Mar-26-01 06:03 PM

  
54. "RE: American Feelings on Arab Muslims and Christians"
In response to Reply # 53


          

"We're not done...We're not done." -KRS One.

I just read an Associated Press report about a 10-month old Israeli baby being killed. The report said that the baby was the youngest victim of the current Palestinian uprising. Although killing babies is tragic and should be avoided, this was NOT the youngest victim. A few weeks into the conflict, around the time the Israelis started assassinating Palestinian leaders, a younger Palestinian baby was killed. This baby was 23 DAYS OLD!!!! Not 23 Years, or 23 months, but 23 DAYS. Not to mention the countless teens, pre-teens, and children shot in the heads and chests, and the countless children left without parents. This is certain: Israel is officially guilty of war crimes, or something equivalent of war crimes, and in violation of the 4th Geneva Conventions on Human Rights and the treatment of civilians during war time. Let's just hope Ariel Sharon, Ehud Barak, and the others responsible for these war crimes are brought to justice. Probably won't happen, though. You think Bush is ready to invite Slobodan Milosevic to the White House, 'cause he invited Sharon.

  

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ebrown9004

Tue Mar-20-01 05:44 AM

  
11. "RE: Muslims and Europe"
In response to Reply # 0


          

There are a lot of people that have never heard of white muslims when they think of Islam they think of Arab, Islam is one of the fastest growing reiglons out there. I am black and have been in Islam for about two years now.

There is so much hate agaist muslims in the US, people seem to think just because I am a muslim that I bomb buildings, or hate people.


It is nice to meet fellow muslims from all over the work. My name is Ibrahim.

  

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Sudani
Charter member
631 posts
Tue Mar-20-01 08:10 AM

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12. "RE: Muslims and Europe"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

Alhamdulillah.

I suggest that everybody go to Corbis.com and look up: muslim , muslim china, hui,etc. look at every pic you can find to get a feel.

so that they can see the spectrum.


there are about 6 million muslims in the USA and about 1.5 billion worldwide. 1 in every 4 people on the planet are muslim.


  

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ebrown9004

Tue Mar-20-01 10:52 AM

  
13. "RE: Muslims and Europe"
In response to Reply # 12


          

You are so right they need to look it up, we are the fastest growing religion out there. All praises to Allah.

  

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Iesa

Tue Mar-27-01 12:00 PM

  
55. "Makes me happy"
In response to Reply # 0


          

salaam alaikum

Masha Allah Yusuf.
makes me feel real happy and compells me to give thanks to Allah.
i love seeing people of different ethinices coming to Islam.
its beautiful.

Sadhana Allah
Alhamdu Allah.

brother, if you ever want to get in touch write me at

milen_arora@hotmail.com

peace be upon you

i pray for us all.

  

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AminahKhuluq

Fri Mar-30-01 01:18 PM

  
65. "WHAT?? You are Muslim?"
In response to Reply # 55


          

786
salaam alaikum,

Islam is not a "religion" based on race. It never was and never will be. People today still think that it is an Arab 'religion.' Its almost funny cause I have light colored skin and when i go out in to public with my hijab on i get looked at and asked "are you Muslim" all the time.

ma salaam,
Aminah*

  

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Iesa

Tue Mar-27-01 12:17 PM

  
56. "Abduhu"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Asalaam Alaikum

to brother Abduhu.

just wanted to take this time to give you your dapps for the piece you wrote on the Buddha's in Afghan. Showed it to some brothers over here, all happy to see a brother breaking it down in terms of Islam.
again it was beautiful.
Alhamdu Allah.

wouldn't wanna lose touch with a brother so if you like
write to me at milen_arora@hotmail.com

peace be upon you

Insha Allah i will here from you soon.

pray for us all.

  

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Iesa

Tue Mar-27-01 12:25 PM

  
58. "Sudani"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Aslaam Alaikum

Alzs iz canz sayz iz


SABHANA ALLAH.

those people you know in Miami, my lord, Alhamdu Allah, are beautiful.

praise.

peace be upon you.

pray for us all.

  

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Iesa

Tue Mar-27-01 12:33 PM

  
59. "one mo gin"
In response to Reply # 0


          


Asalaam Alaikum

brother Yusuf, sorry, got so happy seeing that you were of a "European" decent that i didn't get to read what you wrote, and comment on it.

loved it. bro, the companion you spoke of, was never known to me and i thank you for the enlightenment.
Alhamdu Allah.

Insha Allah i will speak to you again.

peace be upon you

  

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Iesa

Tue Mar-27-01 12:42 PM

  
60. "It just doesn't stop! Ibrahim (ebrown9004)"
In response to Reply # 0


          


Aslaam Alaikum

brother Ibrahim, Masha Allah, you converted. Man, it makes my heart all warm and tight to hear that you have converted.
don let the kaffar get to you. fear no one but Allah.
you know how it is. don mean, give in to the perception that Muslims are given, just.....you know.
gotta treat people the right way, cant hurt the image of Islam any more than we have.

Alhamdu Allah.

brother, im in Canada, Toronto, if you like, write to me

milen_arora@hotmail.com

peace be upon you

now that you have heard the truth (one of the only things that makes sense in this world), spread the word.


  

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ish_skywalker

Wed Mar-28-01 04:47 PM

  
62. "I'm really really sorry, but you all better read this again."
In response to Reply # 60


          

I hate to break to all of you. But who here really knows the true beginings of Is-Lam? Who really knows what went on in the Middle East 2000 years ago, and then even further back than that? Which one of you really knows the true history of The Egyptians, or the Sumerians? Which one of you truly knows who Allah is, which one of you truly knows what A L M stand for? Which one of you knows that Abraham, Buddha, Yeshua and Ma-hammad were in contact with the same beings? Which one of you know these four major religions all have the same beginings? Which one of you know that Allah was really a woman? Which one of you know that religion (which ever one you've been following) was created to enlsave man, not free man. Which of these religions have you focus on enlightening yourself and returning to the Collective, as oposed to fearing and praying to something that you don't even know exist? Which one of you know why you still follow archaic rituals, and do you even know what they originally meant? Which one of you know what the Great Pyramids were really used for? What to do you know about Stonehenge, the Incas, the Olmecs, the Mayans, Easter Island, Atlantis? Which one of you know about the huge temple structure that they've found off the coast of Japan in 100 feet of water that they date back to 10,500 BC or beyond? What you guys know about sacred geometry? What about Sirius, Orion, or Vega? What do you know about Mars and the pyramids they've found? Or what about the mile long face that NASA found on Mars? Which one of you know that NASA has found another planet in our solar system? What do you guys really know? Do you guys really know what's out there? Personally I think it's futile to argue over religions that you all know so little about. I was raised Muslim, I followed every rule they had for 16 years, and they had many. But I did what every good Muslim, Christian and Jew was told not too, I asked questions. When my questions couldn't be answered I looked for myself, and what I found was not was I was told my whole life. Jews, Christians, Muslims and Buddhist need to stop fighting amongst themselves and seriously look into their true history, what you will find will blow you away.
Peace and ascension peoples

  

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Iesa

Thu Mar-29-01 08:57 AM

  
63. "RE: I'm really really sorry, but you all better read this again."
In response to Reply # 62


          

so what exactly you believe?

i questioned everything aswell, just like a famous philospher and mathematician did -Descartes- and came to the conclusion that there is a god.
and like, Newton, Enstein, Darwin, Aristotle and the lost goes on.

i know that Islam is right, b/c it is truly the only thing that makes sense in this world - at least to me and 2 other billion.

never think you are to good for people.

sure you can question everything till it doesn't make sense anymore, but who wants to live a life without sense. common intellect.

you buddhist by any chance??

sorry if the pst sounds harsh, don mean it that way.

peace

  

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