I have a few big questions about this whole situation, and I'm wondering if anyone has a good background in international law or whateve.
1. Is spying illegal, or are there no actual anti-espionage international agreements/treaties? I really just want to know whether or not the spy plane was commiting any crimes or violating any agreements with China in the first place.
2. About that law the US is using to legitmate its landing - the one thats all about how any plane issuing a may-day call (is that the spelling?) can land where it wants to even without permission - did the Chinese ever agree to this?
3. This is just a question not about the situation but sparked by it - how far up does airspace go? I guess I'm just curious as to whether or not spy satellites or space shuttles are violating any sort of no-fly zones while they're up there cruising outer space.
If you want to debate the situation thats chill, I just want to know the answers to these for my own understanding.
The plane was 20 miles out from the China coast, therefore it wasn't in Chinese Airspace or flying over Chinese Waters. While China has signed agreements recognizing the International standard of 12 miles away from your shores being your countries airspace and waters, it doesn't always adhere to that agreement.
While it is likely that the plane was spying on China, it wasn't flying close enough to break any agreements we have with China. It was probably also doing some routine surveilance of International Waters, which isn't a crime either.
China was wrong to even fly a plane close to our plane, and they were for damn sure wrong in detaining our soldiers and boarding the plane, which IS sovereign US teritory.
If you ask me, they folks flying the plane should've radioed for help, ejected and crashed the sucker into the ocean. Flying a EP-3 a highly sensitive piece of military equipment, into the hands of a foreign power who has repeatedly shown no qualms about spying on us....is just plain dumb.
But that's just my opinion, I'm sure they had their reasons for deciding to try an emergency landing in China......and things are never what they seem.
7. "RE: Considering that they were wrong," In response to Reply # 6
Because the Chinese held all of the cards. We were spying on them. Our plane struck their plane (not the other way around), and they held both the plane and it's crew on their soil. The simple solution to all of this: apologize. We get the plane and crew back and let China have their minor victory. That is what happened yesterday, and the crew is returning home. Finally.
W. is a jackass and if this is any indication, we have a long four years of foreign policy blunders ahead of us.
8. "RE: Considering that they were wrong," In response to Reply # 7
>Because the Chinese held all of >the cards. We were >spying on them. Our >plane struck their plane (not >the other way around), and >they held both the plane >and it's crew on their >soil. The simple solution >to all of this: apologize. > We get the plane >and crew back and let >China have their minor victory. > That is what happened >yesterday, and the crew is >returning home. Finally. > WHen the plane comes into land in Hainan island, that is China air space..
THe plane isn't returning back so quickly... Remember when that Mig 25 landed in Okinawa? Russia asks for it back ASAP and USA returns it bit by bit, slowly... but gets the tech from the Mig 25 (or was it 30?)
A slow, lumbering reconnaissance plane was hit by a hot-dogging fighter pilot, while flying in international airspace.
The US has to fly surveillance missions to monitor a country that has nuclear missiles pointed at us.
The Chinese pilot didn't follow international standards of fighter intercept protocol.
The Chinese pilot's aircraft recognition skills were so poor he didn't realize the EP-3 aircraft was propeller driven and flew his aircraft through its propeller arc, destroying his aircraft and nearly killing 24 American crewmen.
China violated international law and arrested the crewmen of an aircraft that legally diverted into your airfield under emergency conditions caused by your pilot's actions, after being led there by one of your other pilots.
China violated international law and boarded a state aircraft.
Where exactly is the US wrong?
Thanks for reading. I love you.
"y'all funny...like that time on looney tunes when the sheep and the coyote clocked out for the day and just chilled. airybody will be back at each other w/ the guns an knives tomorrow but this was peace." - poetx
"What are you but my reflection, who am I to judge or strike you down?" - MJK
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15. "RE: the US is wrong?" In response to Reply # 12
>some thoughts/observations: > >A slow, lumbering reconnaissance plane was >hit by >a hot-dogging fighter pilot, while flying >in international airspace. > >The US has to fly surveillance >missions to monitor a country >that has nuclear missiles pointed >at us.
you dont mind Chinese surveillance planes then off the west and east coast?
>The Chinese pilot didn't follow international >standards of fighter intercept protocol.
>The Chinese pilot's aircraft recognition skills >were so poor he didn't >realize the EP-3 aircraft was >propeller driven and flew his >aircraft through its propeller arc, >destroying his aircraft and nearly >killing 24 American crewmen. >
Thats the US version.. There is a Chinese version wit the US plane casuin the fault.. I guess the 250 million US people would believe the US version whilst the 1.2 billion chinese people would believe the chinese version..
i dont think we're gonna find out which version was true.. coz whatever the 24 crew say, the chinese pilot is gonna disagree.. And who to trust?? I tell you, over here in Asia, they are mad at the americans.. Protests in Seoul, Hong Kong, etc..
I've read some Time articles, watched the CNN and i tell you ,its damn biased.. I've read the chinese newspaper articles and the Chinese News Channels, its damn biased as well. Cant accept all we read..
i think we should all forget about it in the end and concentrate on makin money through Sino- US ties..
As Deng Xioping (chinese leader from 77 to 96) said "To be rich is glorious"
18. "the rest about media bias I agree with...." In response to Reply # 15
>>some thoughts/observations: >> >>A slow, lumbering reconnaissance plane was >>hit by >>a hot-dogging fighter pilot, while flying >>in international airspace. >> >>The US has to fly surveillance >>missions to monitor a country >>that has nuclear missiles pointed >>at us. > >you dont mind Chinese surveillance planes >then off the west and >east coast?
just wanted to respond to this one: China does do this.....its just not publicized with media hype....surveillance is typically a non-event media wise (the military wants to keep it that way too) unless something like the current incident happens
Thanks for reading. I love you.
"y'all funny...like that time on looney tunes when the sheep and the coyote clocked out for the day and just chilled. airybody will be back at each other w/ the guns an knives tomorrow but this was peace." - poetx
"What are you but my reflection, who am I to judge or strike you down?" - MJK
In Rotation: Sade - Lovers Rock Miles Davis - Big Fun Pink Floyd - The Wall Stevie Wonder - Songs In The Key Of Life Beatles - Revolver JayDee - Welcome To Detroit
25. "RE: the US is wrong?" In response to Reply # 12
>The US has to fly surveillance >missions to monitor a country >that has nuclear missiles pointed >at us.
Really? The last report indicates that China has exactly 20 missiles capable of hitting the United States (woohoo) and that most of those aren't even aimed at us. China's nuclear strategy all along has been to only have as many as is absolutely necessary. They aren't a nuclear threat, they are just covering their asses.
27. "RE: the US is wrong?" In response to Reply # 12
Everyone has admitted that the US plane struck the Chinese fighter when it banked into a turn. The Pentagon says that the plane was on auto-pilot, but the Chinese say that it was intentional.
I think China had every right to send the fighters out to intercept. Our pilots should be more careful or have more training if they can't keep from running into intercepting aircraft.
13. "RE: Considering that they were wrong," In response to Reply # 7
The planes collided because the Chinese fighter was too close... It was their fault the landing was even necessary, and it is standard for a distressed aircraft to be assisted by an ally. The Russia comparison doesn't work for that reason: U.S. and China - allies; U.S. and Russia - enemies.
And China held all the cards? Send 3 or 4 carrier battlegroups their way and see how long that holds true.
Also, it would be my guess that Bush had VERY little to do with the decision anyway. He appointed the people he did because he knows he can't do the job himself.
14. "RE: Considering that they were wrong," In response to Reply # 13
The US and China are hardly allies...they never have been.
And send 3 or 4 carrier battlegroups over there...that will definitely solve something. Our international image -> shit...China's complaints about the overbearing Western power -> totally just. Very good idea.
And there is little reason to believe China would even give a shit. When we threatened them over missile tests directed at Taiwan, what did they do? They fired the missiles.
16. "RE: Considering that they were wrong," In response to Reply # 14
>The US and China are hardly >allies...they never have been.
I believe the term was Strategic Competitors
>And send 3 or 4 carrier battlegroups over there...that will definitely solve something. Our international image -> shit...China's complaints about the overbearing Western power -> totally just. Very good idea.
Exactly..
>And there is little reason to >believe China would even give >a shit. When we >threatened them over missile tests >directed at Taiwan, what did >they do? They fired >the missiles.
34. "RE: Considering that they were wrong," In response to Reply # 30
Technically speaking, the US and China are NOT AT WAR...that does not mean allies. The only positive thing happening between US and China is MFN (or NTR...whatever it is called now).
19. "RE: Considering that they were wrong," In response to Reply # 7
they found out yesterday that the US spy plane was on auto-pilot. Eventhough this big ass plane could have been changing course, it would have been a gradual process. For a large, computer driven, much slower plane to collide with a manually controlled jet fighter doesn't make sense.
>i think america should suck it >up, apologize, and stop letting >tension build. simple solution to >a simple problem.
They said Very Sorry..
Those words have been repeateed so often on media and news here that if youre chinese and dont know any english, you're guarantted to know very sorry by the end of tonight..
Just observations from this side of the world whilst i vacation here
>i think america should suck it >up, apologize, and stop letting >tension build. simple solution to >a simple problem.
WOOOORD!!
"FUCK THE GOVERNMENT! I CAUSE ACCIDENTS"
"The best index to a person's character is how he treats people who can't do him any good & how he treats people who can't fight back"-Abigail Van Buren
I personally have no beef with China. If someone was spying on me and I caught them, I'd keep their asses locked up until I got an apology, too. We're supposed to be moving toward peace, people. I'm not going to war under no damn G-Dub... peace
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____________________________ "the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks
>The plane was 20 miles out >from the China coast, therefore >it wasn't in Chinese Airspace >or flying over Chinese Waters. >While China has signed agreements >recognizing the International standard of > 12 miles away from >your shores being your countries >airspace and waters, it doesn't >always adhere to that agreement. > > >While it is likely that the >plane was spying on China, >it wasn't flying close enough >to break any agreements we >have with China. It was >probably also doing some routine >surveilance of International Waters, which >isn't a crime either. > >China was wrong to even fly >a plane close to our >plane, and they were for >damn sure wrong in detaining >our soldiers and boarding the >plane, which IS sovereign US >teritory. > >If you ask me, they folks >flying the plane should've radioed >for help, ejected and crashed >the sucker into the ocean. >Flying a EP-3 a highly >sensitive piece of military equipment, >into the hands of a >foreign power who has repeatedly >shown no qualms about spying >on us....is just plain dumb. > Correct me if i'm wrong: Didn't they release the dude after one year.. That guy held for one year, says he innocent and then they release him.. They made a big deal about capturing him but not a big deal about releasing him.. if he was guilty, i dont think they would have released him.. One year is quite a long time compared to the 10 days, the crew spent on Hainan
10. "just glad it's over..." In response to Reply # 0
and Dubya didn't get the war he seems to be looking for...
but as in any situation like this, my basic opinion is that we never really know the whole story. Actually, I'm willing to bet we don't even know half of it. The only thing we can really do is sit back and wait...
*shrug* spying is a dangerous business, and sooner or later, feathers get ruffled. that's pretty much what went on...I'm just glad we got it resolved without incident.
L.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I am the Invincible Sword Goddess...the desert dragon..." ~~Jen
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31. "RE: just glad it's over..." In response to Reply # 10
HOW LONG HAS GEORGE BEEN IN OFFICE.... BOUT 3 OR 4 MONTHS AND HE HAS ALREADY PISSED OFF THREE NATIONS AND THEY ALL SAID THAT THEY WOULDN'T TAKE AMERICAS SH-T LIGHTLY. IF HE HASN'T GOTTEN HIS WAR STARTED YET, HE WILL AND SOON...... JUST WATCH AND SEE.... I HEARD THAT THERE WILL BE A DESERT STORM II.....
"Niggas mad cause Ibrags about the cash I got, but I'm used to not havin alot, I'm from the gutter and ohh..."-Jay-Z
"Expensive shoes worn, Loui Viton see-through gone, CoChes, my face is like a coupon..."Jay-Z
Just about everybody made that shit larger than it really is. You got baby Bush holdin his ground (for what?), tryin to send a message by what-not apologizing? Come on, if we lost one of ours we'd be askin for the same thing but probably try to go for more. The media makes it look like we on the brink of war and shit, when it ain't even close, but with Bush in office-whatever. I'm just glad the whole thing is over, maybe after this we can go back home to planet earth.
cuz this whole "APOLOGIZE!" "I WILL NOT!" "BUT IT WAS MY LAND" "I WASN'T ON YOUR LAND!" "YOU WERE ON MY LAND AND YOU WERE SPY-ING" "WAS NOT" "WERE TOO" "OK THEN, LEMME SEE YR PLANE" "NO! IT'S MY PLANE" "THEN I'LL SAY YOU WERE SPYING!" "WAS NOT!" "WERE TOO!" "I'M GONNA TELL THE DEFENSE COUNCIL!" "OK THEN, CALL YR DEFENSE COUNCIL! THEY'LL SAY I WAS WRITE ANYWAY!"
scenario is laughable
==**peace**==
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.....
"Who need fossil fuel when the sun ain't goin' nowhere" - Amiri Baraka
If we look at the reverse situation, a chinese (or other foreign) military plane landing at a US base, do you think we aren't going to check it out for nuclear, chemical or biological weapons? Do you think we are going to act out of pure trust and not detain the pilots to question them about the nature of their flight?
can we say embassy in "jerusalem"? didnt happpen in clintons term(s), but the newborn baby is putting it "in full effect"! may Allah prevent him from succeeding!
of course, if you speaking in terms of "so far for bush's administration", as opposed to "all of clinton's years in office", then i HAVE TO AGREE w/u.
but in the long run, bush will no doubt be the worst of the 2.
subhakallahumma wabihamdika ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa attuubu ilaika
LOOK THE WHOLE THING IS STUPID.... AMERICAS JUST MAD CAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN DONE THE WAY THEY DO EVERYBODY ELSE AND THEY DON'T LIKE THAT.... AMERICA LOOKED LIKE SOME PUNKS THAT GOT CAUGHT IN THE ACT OF SPYIN, AND DIDN'T FEEL THEY SHOULD APOLOGIZE, WHY.... CAUSE WERE AMERICA... SH-T , WHAT GOES AROUND.......YALL KNOW THE REST.
"Niggas mad cause Ibrags about the cash I got, but I'm used to not havin alot, I'm from the gutter and ohh..."-Jay-Z
"Expensive shoes worn, Loui Viton see-through gone, CoChes, my face is like a coupon..."Jay-Z
China's just mad that we sold arms to Taiwan again this year? Every year (around April) we sell arms to Taiwan, and every year China gets pissed about it. Behold this year's method of retaliation...
Besides, the U.S. was hardly a major player in this event. This is largely a battle between the Chinese Government and Chinese Military (coming from 2nd in charge at the Chinese Foreign Ministry...don't ask).
And the Bush references? This was routine survailiance W. was probably entirely unaware of.
39. "So they finally let our boys come back today" In response to Reply # 38
I say W. got punked big time. First they run up on the EP-3 like what. Then they eff up the plane, take our boys hostage basically then tell W that he aint getting his plane nor his peeps back. Oh yea and you better apologize too.
W. really dont want it with china, let that have been someone else with a higher tolerance for bullshit- like saadam. and it would have been like the whole West Pac runnin in their bombing the shit outta fools.
Well at least all, what, 24-26 something like that were returned safely. But G-dub showed his true colors these past couple of weeks, and I feel he is rightly named Bush cause son is mad pussy
It’s a form of meditation. It puts me in that consciousness state where I need to be. Because it’s an evil world out there, a very evil world. You gotta get past all that shit. Music keeps your soul good (C) Oh No
42. "RE: So they finally let our boys come back today" In response to Reply # 41
I never said we should have started anything. But exactly for the fact of our assumed innocence Mr. President should've been playing a little harder than he was in that game. He really took an L on this one. And that now gives China reason to believe they can push the bounds of fucking with us a little more. Should he have started something, I dont think that was neccessary, but sometimes just standing your ground in the face of a bully makes him cower.
It’s a form of meditation. It puts me in that consciousness state where I need to be. Because it’s an evil world out there, a very evil world. You gotta get past all that shit. Music keeps your soul good (C) Oh No
I feel China has major beef over the whole Taiwan situation,which has been going on for a second. True enough we should probably butt out, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms. But as it stands with the affairs of China v/s Taiwan, I think China will deal unjustly with America in any dealings it has with us, thus this situation.
It’s a form of meditation. It puts me in that consciousness state where I need to be. Because it’s an evil world out there, a very evil world. You gotta get past all that shit. Music keeps your soul good (C) Oh No
it goes far deeper than Taiwan. I mean, we do have a sordid history with "Red" China (Which Jesse Helms continues to call them). And China has been screwed by every Western nation it has seen. Of course they are going to generally be pissy and suspicious.
>it goes far deeper than Taiwan. > I mean, we do >have a sordid history with >"Red" China (Which Jesse Helms >continues to call them). >And China has been screwed >by every Western nation it >has seen. Of course >they are going to generally >be pissy and suspicious.
You know, in essence Taiwan does belong to China.. Imagine if several hundered thousand people migrated to Hawaii and declared Hawaii a republic.. Would the USA allow it? Would you be a bit mad at those people declarin Hawaii a seperate country now?
Well, it happened back in 49 when the Nationalists declared Taiwan a republic... though it had always belonged to China...
Of course...and China is pissed about it (of course, those people were fleeing the revolution, but no matter). My point is that Taiwan is just the tip of the iceberg as far as China's dislike/mistrust for the US goes.
>You know, in essence Taiwan does >belong to China.. Imagine if >several hundered thousand people migrated >to Hawaii and declared Hawaii >a republic.. Would the USA >allow it? Would you be >a bit mad at those >people declarin Hawaii a seperate >country now?
Interesting how you brought this up, seeing how that was the way Hawaii got annexed to the United States over a century ago. The Americans showed up, took the queen hostage and declared Hawaii a republic--then offered it to the United States as its first colony.
>Well, it happened back in 49 >when the Nationalists declared Taiwan >a republic... though it had >always belonged to China... > >hmm.
Yeah, but the Guomindang never declared independence from Beijing. As far as they're officially concerned, the government in Taipei should be the legitimate government for all China, not just Taiwan. Though the present Taiwanese administration used to advocate for independence, they know full well that they are still tied to the mainland in many ways--mostly economically now, but the Guomindang is still looking to regain a foothold--and to seek independence right now would be very ill-advised diplomatically.
== densetsu no hitokiri, himura battousai.
one of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important. - bertrand russell
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