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dittyman

Tue Apr-17-01 09:53 AM

  
"ISLAM!?! African!?! Gimme a break"


          

Islam and African-Americans
(from http://www.geocities.com/roots_n_rooted/islam.html)

It almost goes without saying these days. Africentric people know better
than to be affiliated with european culture or religion. (Sorry for my
candor, but today we are going to keep it real.) Most people don't realize
that for over 1,000 years Europeans have been trying to subjugate Africans.
Whether it be with war or religion, they have been fighting to tie our
minds and confuse us politically and spiritually. Am I wrong? Now, I
know this is a generalization. But we know that it general, this is the
essence of things. Most of us picked that up by studying history.

But how did it come to pass that more and more black people are adopting
Islam as their faith of choice. Why don't we ever talk about the role
that Islam played in destroying Africa? Perhaps it is because of all
the positive things that the Nation of Islam has done in the black community
that we are now giving the entire Islamic community a free ride. For
sure no other black organization has had the commitement to work with
black people from all walks of life. (Note that I called the Nation of
Islam an organization, and not a religious organization.)

Malcolm X is of course a shining example of how the Nation worked in
a positive manner to turn around the lives of many people. Malcolm X
was a drug dealer, school drop out, pimp, thug and ex-convict that was
transformed into a respectful, intelligent, informed voice for Africans
in America. No denying it, that was the doing of the Nation of Islam.
But I just can't get over the idea that black people are once again taking
on the ways of people that have enslaved, colonized and basically disrespected
us. It was Malcolm's own words that got me to thinking about whether
Africans were just trading one master for another. "Just because you
put kittens in an oven that does not make them biscuits." Within the
context of To me, this meant that just because the Nation of Islam has
done many good things in the black community this does not mean that
Islam is good for black people. Maybe being in the Nation got a lot of
people off the streets, working, organizing, but so does the Black church.
So could the United Way or a job training program. It's does not make
the United Way or the temp agency a source of Black culture. And it is
high time that black people live within the confines of their own culture.
* see bottom for further explanation.*

Regardless of the good work that the Nation of Islam has done in the
black community, it is hard to ignore the long history of violence and
racism suffered at the hands of Arabs. Arabs were the first outside group
to enslave Africans on a large scale. A book worth reading is "Two Thousand
Seasons". It details all the violations of African human rights that
took place at the hand of Arabs during the times of ancient slavery.
You could say they provided an example for Europeans to follow. Africans
were used for labor and leisure throughout the Middle East. Under the
guise of Allah-sanctioned Jihads (holy wars) many African nations were
colonized and enslaved. So, are we to believe that God told the Arabs
to enslave us and introduce Islam to Africa by way of the sword? I doubt
it. Just like God didn't tell the Christians to come to Africa and "save
our souls." Now, I might be able to forgive this little lie except that
both christians and muslims continue to say that God wants them to convert
the world. I find it hard to believe the God only talks to muslims and
christians.

There are still reports to this day of African slavery in the Middle
East. Are not the perpetrators of these actions Muslims themselves? The
same people that persecute their women and encourage chauvinist tendancies
in their men? This does not sound like the west Africa from which 90%
of African-Americans can find their ancestry. Are we to give this culture
a free ride because black people made something good out of it (in spite
of it's origins?). So here we end up asking ourselves another question;
how did black people again of those that
have enslaved them?

When you become a muslim exactly what do you really become anyway? It
seems that a lot of Africans (Blacks) in America sought refuge in Islam
during the conscious movement of the 60s and 70s. These people were looking
for a way to connect with their own culture. Most of these people were
interested in eradicating all the european (white) influences in their
lives and got involved in Islam because they mistakingly believed that
Islam was of African origin. Again in the 80s and early 90s more African
fled the ways of white america, which they considered racist and oppressive,
in favor of Islam and what they knew to be a different way of doing things.
These individuals now pray in arabic (if they are good muslims), they
(women) wear their hair covered in a middle eastern manner, prescribe
to the thought that Mecca is the Holy Land, and use traditional, and
more stoic arabic culture to define ediquette and ethics within their
households. While we can say that muslims are less than likely to be
drinkers, drug abusers, or social thugs, can we say that they are expressing
their pride in being black? Are they any closer to the freedom that they
desired when they left christianity and white american values? Maybe
they are living more clean lives, but they can not say that they arrived
at their original objective of knowing themselves better. Or are they
simply trading one master for another?


  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
Part 2
dittyman
Apr 17th 2001
1
^UP
utamaroho
Apr 17th 2001
2
RE: Part 2
masani
Apr 17th 2001
3
FOR SUDANI
Apr 17th 2001
12
      RE: FOR SUDANI
Apr 18th 2001
21
FOR ABDUHU
utamaroho
Apr 17th 2001
4
for utamaroho and solarus
Apr 17th 2001
6
      RE: for utamaroho and solarus
utamaroho
Apr 17th 2001
9
      RE: for utamaroho and solarus
Apr 17th 2001
13
      Problems
Apr 18th 2001
17
      RE: Problems
Apr 18th 2001
18
      Point?
Apr 18th 2001
22
           RE: just b/c......
Apr 18th 2001
23
                more like
utamaroho
Apr 18th 2001
24
                Why AND WHAT
Apr 18th 2001
27
                RE: more like
Apr 18th 2001
28
                     Conception of the "ONE GOD"
Apr 19th 2001
29
                Allah=Olodumare? Wrong
Apr 18th 2001
26
      RE: Problems
utamaroho
Apr 18th 2001
20
      on behalf of mr. bozack......
Apr 24th 2001
30
           From #17
Apr 24th 2001
31
                aaiight.
Apr 24th 2001
32
      RE: for utamaroho and solarus
Apr 18th 2001
14
      RE: for utamaroho and solarus
utamaroho
Apr 17th 2001
10
      Answers
Apr 18th 2001
25
RE: ISLAM!?! African!?! Gimme a break
Apr 17th 2001
5
condense responese...
utamaroho
Apr 17th 2001
8
not worth answering
Apr 17th 2001
7
Excerpts used in the Article
Apr 17th 2001
11
seriously, i read this article......
Apr 18th 2001
15
i like you abduhu, really i do...
utamaroho
Apr 18th 2001
16
      RE: i like you too.
Apr 18th 2001
19

dittyman

Tue Apr-17-01 09:54 AM

  
1. "Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I offer this brief passage from the Institute of Islamic Information:


The word "hijab" comes from the Arabic word "hajaba" meaning to hide
from view or conceal. In the present time, the context of hijab is the
modest covering of a Muslim woman. The question now is what is the extent
of the covering? The Qur'an says:

"Say to the believing man that they should lower their gaze and guard
their modesty; that will make for greater purity for them; and Allah
is well acquainted with all that they do. And say to the believing women
that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; and that they
should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily
appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and
not display their beauty except to their husbands..." (Qur'an 24:30-31)
These verses from the Qur'an contain two main injunctions:

A woman should not show her beauty or adornments except what appears
by uncontrolled factors such as the wind blowing her clothes, and the
head covers should be drawn so as to cover the hair, the neck and the
bosom. Islam has no fixed standard as to the style of dress or type
of clothing that Muslims must wear. However, some requirements must be
met. The first of these requirements is the parts of the body which must
be covered. Islam has two sources for guidance and rulings: first, the
Qur'an, the revealed word of Allah and secondly, the Hadith or the traditions
of the Prophet Muhammad (S) who was chosen by Allah to be the role model
for mankind. The following is a Tradition of the Prophet:

"Ayesha (R) reported that Asmaa the daughter of Abu Bakr (R) came to
the Messenger of Allah (S) while wearing thin clothing. He approached
her and said: 'O Asmaa! When a girl reaches the menstrual age, it is
not proper that anything should remain exposed except this and this.
He pointed to the face and hands." (Abu Dawood)

Now who's culture are these mandates in dress and conduct coming from?
It is clear that this is not a classic African interpetation of how women
or anyone mantains respectability. A thousand years ago, a woman who
was initiated in the holy priesthoods of any African religion would have
probably appeared bare chested during rituals, sometimes during daily
activity. If nothing else we know that she would be bare shouldered (as
in the photograph shown here). Is she any less a priestess in showing
parts of her body? Are the people present any less children of God for
having witnessed and participating in said spiritual ritual because it
was conducted by a bare shouldered sister? By the way, black people have
always recognized the spiritual powers naturally inherent in women. Why
would any black woman deny her God-given right to serve as clergy because
arabic and white men have a problem with women as priests? Imagine how
many sisters miss their calling because they allow the dicatates of other
cultures to determine their lives.

Which brings us to another point; the validity of the Quron in the African
person's life. How did we come to be introduced to this book? Should
we be following it's words? Don't we have our own spiritual teachings?
Yes! And these words of wisdom or no less sacred or important because
they are primarily passed down orally.

Every religion is birthed from some people's culture. Religion is not
created in a vacuum, nor is it a non-cultural thing. So, when you adopt
a religion, you adopt a culture. If you convert to Judiaism you will
be introduced to Semetic culture. You may begin to eat kosher foods.
Dress according to semetic custom. This is the order of things. So when
an African becomes a muslim she is introduced to arabic culture. Now
perhaps the ways of arabic people suits you well. But does it wear better
on your body and soul than the ways of your own people? Are saying that
we are proud to be black as long as we do not have to dress, pray or
speak like black people? There are black people dieing to learn arabic
so that they can recite the Quron, yet they have no interest in learning
the languages spoken by our people before we arrived here on slave ships.
We will carry the cross of Jesus before we commit our lives to the Orisa,
Loa or Abosum. Why is that?

And before I miss the opportunity, I believe it is imporatant to state
that clean living is possible through african spirituality. We do not
need to look outside our cultures to find paths to sobriety, fidelity
or otherwise. We come from a race of hard workers, spiritual masters,
governmental wizards and cultural architects. Everything that we admire
about the Nation of Islam can be done within a African context. Is has
already be done. (In fact, a lot of spiritual communities are doing it.)
When we choose to practice the ways of others we are declaring war on
ourselves. We are forcing our own culture in extinction. We are showing
others around us that we are ashamed and without roots. We are begging
to be exploited. Is this not true? What would you think if the Jews decided
to become the followers of the Aryan Nation? Or became disciples of a
Hitler-based organization? You would say that they had gone mad. Yet,
black remain the only people on the entire planet that know nothing of
their own language, religions, dress, ethics and sciences. And a lot
of these black people are turning to others to give them direction. Something
to think about, eh?
Click Here for even more to think about

In future, posts I will continue to explore exactly what is missing from
arabic and european religions that can be found within various african
spiritual paths and how healthier black people are when they practice
their own beliefs.

* I am in no suggesting or encouraging any form of recriprocal racism.
In general terms, black people need to place their own survival above
the survival of other people. Not because any one people are more sacred
than another, but because historically europeans and arabs have placed
a low value on our lives and culture. In addition, they have made no
indication that they were wrong for doing so. In more specific terms,
some individual arabs and europeans have attempted to make ammends socially,
spiritually, economically, etc. These individuals should not feel that
the stance of "black first" is in any way an attack on their efforts.
Nor should they be upset Black people are being encouraged to embrace
their own cultures. If they are upset by this suggestion, then perhaps
they are still very much racists within their hearts.

  

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utamaroho

Tue Apr-17-01 10:22 AM

  
2. "^UP"
In response to Reply # 1


          

ideas streaming at 100 mph but fingers not moving fast enough...GOOD POST

be right back

(((((PEACE)))))

  

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masani

Tue Apr-17-01 10:32 AM

  
3. "RE: Part 2"
In response to Reply # 1


          

Excellent post! There are those of us out there that share and discuss such topics. You are not alone, you are anointed!

Peace

  

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Solarus
Charter member
3604 posts
Tue Apr-17-01 06:04 PM

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12. "FOR SUDANI"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

To your request:

"i would like some examples of what practices disappeared among the Afrikans upon the spread of Islam and what were the practices replaced with, and why the non-muslim Afrikan feels the practices before were better compared to the ones that they were replaced with. Insha Allah."- from "How far do we go back?"

this passage reveals one in the discussion of the "hijab."

I also already discussed a key, more fundamental aspect in my delineation of the QURANIC (and I'm assuming, therefore "Allah's") negation of "divination, magic, etc." or rather the "occult." You should know more than me. If the Quran does not take a stance AGAINST the occult (divination) than I am wrong. IF IT DOES, then it is inherently ANTI-AFRAKAN as an understanding of the occult is central/core to any traditional Afrakan belief/spiritual system and I would also argue it is core to MANY non-Western spiritual systems (various Asian traditions, aboriginal Turtle Islanders (native americans), etc.). This stance of the occult has lead to the murder and supression of the priestly traditions of SEVERAL Afrakan groups by Arabs AND (especially) converted Afrakans (particularly modern-day Afrakan muslims and the ones in antiquity especially in West Afraka were not as "Muslim" as they may have professed. For why, see "GOD is IMMANENT" coming soon to a okayactivist board near you.)

For importance of divination in Afrakan traditions:
http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/DCForumID1/2430.html

For Breakdown of "occult" and Quranic references:
http://www.okayplayer.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=2454&forum=DCForumID1&omm=0


What it boils down to is this: DON'T FOOL YOURSELF.

The Quran and thereby Allah and HIS version of Islam (submission) is inherently against Afrakan traditions and core Afrakan beliefs. It's okay to admit it. This will not by any means hurt your belief and submission to HIM. To HIM, if Afrakan traditions were faulty and the "handiwork of Shaytan" then fine. I can accept that. WE can be HIS DEVIL. Just don't LIE and say what is, ISN'T.



PEace
Solarus

***Words of Wisdom***

"If it's not about NATIONBUILDING, it's not about ANYTHING."- Dr. John Henrik Clarke

"We are not the victims! We are just fighting forces that we cannot see!"-2001 Sankofa Conference

"You don't have the RIGHT to have free time from your children."-Kwame Agyei Akoto

"It is the worst feeling to hear the call of the drum and not be able to respond."-Solarus

On understanding Afrakan thought:
"it's like explaining astrophysics to a whino, the explanation can't be done like that. when people try to simplify it, they ask the other person to tailor the answers their cultural context. and trying to cater afrikan ideals to european understanding is a REAL sin."-utamaroho

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

  

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Sudani
Charter member
631 posts
Wed Apr-18-01 11:19 AM

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21. "RE: FOR SUDANI"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

thanks. i am in the process of reading the posts. will probably have finished them all by tomorrow,insha Allah.

thanks

  

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utamaroho

Tue Apr-17-01 10:53 AM

  
4. "FOR ABDUHU"
In response to Reply # 0


          

after listening/observing to the board for a few weeks now, just to see how things are without my "antagonistic" perspective, I must say that some of the statements you make everyday are very much like those of the christians i meet everyday here in the bible-belt. and i'm sure you met them too, thus you should understand where i'm coming from with this:

1)you made this statement here-

i don't care if you from africa or shmafrica, arabia or asia......no HUMAN BEINGS CANNOT COME UP W/ ANYTHING PERFECT, B/C THEY AINT PERFECT.

NOT YOUR ANCESTORS, NOT MY ANCESTORS, NOT HIS, NOT HERS, NOBODY!!!!

name one thing that HUMANS-AFRICAN OR OTHERWISE- HAVE CREATED THAT IS PERFECT.

which sounds very much like "no matter whether you're black or white, rich or poor, JESUS is the way to salvation". how much different is your universalized statement above?

2)
you will submit too. think not.
how about this......when the angel of death comes to take your soul, be rebellious and dont give it to him, if you can. but you cant b/c NOBODY can avoid or avert DEATH. and ppl will submit, willingly or unwillingly-its all up to them.

this sounds suspiciously to the "fear the great god in the sky" argument by christians who have been defeated in their arguments and have to rely on scare tactics or should i say "unproveable without direct experience/assimilation" into the belief system.

3)please don't dodge solarus's questions, here they are to remind you:

For instance, you say Islam is "submission" and that the first creature has been practicing Islam since the beginning. If this is the case then the people of KMT were practicing Islam and also Afrakans prior to the 7the century CE before Arabs spread "Islam?" If not when, why and how did the deviation from "submission" or Islam manifest?

Were other peoples practicing Islam and then Allah decided to "further" Islam by bring the final prophet, Muhammad to reveal the final word?

Or did other peoples deviate from Islam, and then Allah decided to send Muhammad to correct the deviators from "submission?"


it's cool you consistently provide the islamic perspective, and i respect your efforts. your use of islamic scripture though to validate/prove islamic points is circular logic and in the case of showing your point, null and void. notice this: when talking about african ideals solarus and i point out the aspects of western culture that make aspiring towards afrikan thinking a better solution. giving only afrikan examples of "righteousness" won't work unless you show that the status quo is not "delivering". when you only push Islamic examples/proof, you fall into the realm of using dogma.

*we won't even get into the straight up falsehoods right now...


(((((PEACE)))))

  

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abduhu
Charter member
1734 posts
Tue Apr-17-01 12:52 PM

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6. "for utamaroho and solarus"
In response to Reply # 4


          

more so utamaroho, than solarus. though i attempted to answer your (solarus) questions from the "haram music" thread, since ppl be insisting and stuff.

bismillah


>after listening/observing to the board for
>a few weeks now, just
>to see how things are
>without my "antagonistic" perspective, I
>must say that some of
>the statements you make everyday
>are very much like those
>of the christians i meet
>everyday here in the bible-belt.
>and i'm sure you met
>them too, thus you should
>understand where i'm coming from
>with this:
>
>1)you made this statement here-
>
>i don't care if you from
>africa or shmafrica, arabia or
>asia......no HUMAN BEINGS CANNOT COME
>UP W/ ANYTHING PERFECT, B/C
>THEY AINT PERFECT.
>
>NOT YOUR ANCESTORS, NOT MY ANCESTORS,
>NOT HIS, NOT HERS, NOBODY!!!!
>
>name one thing that HUMANS-AFRICAN OR
>OTHERWISE- HAVE CREATED THAT IS
>PERFECT.
>
>which sounds very much like "no
>matter whether you're black or
>white, rich or poor, JESUS
>is the way to salvation".
>how much different is your
>universalized statement above?

bismillah

ok. lets see how "universalized" my statement was and how "exactly" i sound like a christian......

>i don't care if you from
>africa or shmafrica, arabia or
>asia......no HUMAN BEINGS CANNOT COME
>UP W/ ANYTHING PERFECT, B/C
>THEY AINT PERFECT.
>
>NOT YOUR ANCESTORS, NOT MY ANCESTORS,
>NOT HIS, NOT HERS, NOBODY!!!!
>
>name one thing that HUMANS-AFRICAN OR
>OTHERWISE- HAVE CREATED THAT IS
>PERFECT.

the statement i made IS UNIVERSAL as you have claimed. how and why would it NOT BE, if i said "NO HUMAN BEINGS" and "NOBODY"? it was meant to be universal. and? i have said, am saying, and will say "universal" statements, just like utamaroho has: with those "if negroes dont get back to practicing the ways of our ancestors, they will never find themselves and will always be lost. they will always be westernized, the "system" will always oppress the african who has no knowledge of himself, etc, etc...."-type statements.
universal or generalized: however you want to call it, its all the same, and you are guilty of it too. if you wanna put it this way, you sound like a christian too. we aal doit.
so whats the "moot" point that you are trying to make?

next....


>2)
>you will submit too. think not.
>
>how about this......when the angel of
>death comes to take your
>soul, be rebellious and dont
>give it to him, if
>you can. but you cant
>b/c NOBODY can avoid or
>avert DEATH. and ppl will
>submit, willingly or unwillingly-its all
>up to them.
>
>this sounds suspiciously to the "fear
>the great god in the
>sky" argument by christians who
>have been defeated in their
>arguments and have to rely
>on scare tactics or should
>i say "unproveable without direct
>experience/assimilation" into the belief system.

no it doesnt, but if you really want it to, then...ok. it sounds "suspiciously" the same. but it really doesnt. why? b/c im not trying to instill fear into anyone by making that statement. AH HA!!!! i just realized where you might have came up with that "conclusion" from.
when i made the statement about "the angel of death". man, you are reading wayyyy toooo much into my words, for real. lets look at my statement again and see how you confused yourself:

>how about this......when the angel of
>death comes to take your
>soul, be rebellious and dont
>give it to him, if
>you can. but you cant
>b/c NOBODY can avoid or
>avert DEATH.

once again, this is all i said. i didnt say "when the angel of death comes, and you havent accepted islam you will goto hell" or "the angel of death is gonna....GETCHA!!!"
what i did say, or rather the meaning implied in "simplistic" terms and words is: everybody will "submit" to one thing or another. you, me, the best doctor in the world, cannot avert death.
solarus has already stated in his "african conciousness" thread that: "Within the spiritual system of Ifa there is the firmly held belief that there is one Supreme Essence, generally referred to as God, that controls THE VERY DESTINY of the unniverse and the things therein. There is no reality higher than Olodumare and it is to this Essence that WE MUST SUBMIT OUR BEINGS; for it is Olodumare that LAYS OUT THE DESTINY(ayanmo) OF ALL HUMAN BEINGS."
eventhough by all means "not conclusive", what he posted that he obviously has no problem w/ (and you dont either), IS IN COMPLETE AND TOTAL COHESION AND AGREEMENT with what i said. SUMBISSION!!!
so whats the problem? if any.

NEXT.....



>3)please don't dodge solarus's questions, here
>they are to remind you:

of course you know, i wasnt "dodging" them. i just answer q's as a see fit to, and in no particular order.

>For instance, you say Islam is
>"submission" and that the first
>creature has been practicing Islam
>since the beginning.

stop. hate to get technical and stuff (so why doit huh?) but, i didnt say "creature" i said "the first human". yeah, i know what you mean, but i dont like playing wordgames up in here. ppl have a tendency to play off ALMOST ANYTHING that i say.
and i saw something you posted b4 about adam and eve-them possibly not being the first human beings TO YOU and YOUR UNDERSTANDING-so i decided not to say "which" human being. im learning. slowly, but surely.

If this
>is the case then the
>people of KMT were practicing
>Islam and also Afrakans prior
>to the 7the century CE
>before Arabs spread "Islam?"

depends on EXACTLY WHO "YOU" are referring to. but, yes. there were ppl throughout time, b4 muhammad, that were muslims and practised islam. just not in its COMPLETE, PERFECTED, AND most importantly, FINALIZED WAY.

If
>not when, why and how
>did the deviation from "submission"
>or Islam manifest?

here is the "why and how" of the deviation from "submission" that manifested:

Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The idols of the people of Nooh (Noah) were known among the Arabs later on. Wadd belonged to (the tribe of) Kalb in Dawmat al-Jandal. Suwaa’ belonged to Hudhayl. Yaghooth belonged to Muraad, then to Bani Ghutayf in al-Jawf, near Sabaa’. Ya’ooq belonged to Hamadaan. Nasar belonged to Humayr of Aal Dhi’l-Kalaa’. These were names of righteous men from the people of Nooh. When they died, the Shaytaan inspired their people to set up idols in the places where they had used to sit, and to call those idols by their names. They did that but they did not worship them, but after those people died and knowledge had been forgotten, then they started to worship them. (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4636).

and ppl are STILL DOING IT TO THIS DAY. think about all those 1000s of saints that the catholics have. i used to have a silver "st. christopher protect us" pendant. i never rocked it. why? who da hell is st. christoper? i knew who christ was, but this guy was a unknown to me. and when i found out who he was, i STILL didnt rock it. i still got it. cant wait to melt it down and use it for something beneficial. (im not catholic or christian, so why would i wear it, right? in other words, no disrespect to those who revere him, but i got so what im gon do with it? give it away?)

>
>Were other peoples practicing Islam and
>then Allah decided to "further"
>Islam by bring the final
>prophet, Muhammad to reveal the
>final word?

yes, this is correct.

>
>Or did other peoples deviate from
>Islam, and then Allah decided
>to send Muhammad to correct
>the deviators from "submission?"

this is correct too. in the quran, Allah says: Of some apostles We have already told thee the story; of others We have not......4.164
10.47 "And for every nation there is a messenger."
35.24 "And there is not a people but a warner has gone among them."
17.15 Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an apostle (to give warning).
17.16 When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then (it is) We destroy them utterly.

and muhammad was the last of those to be sent, and he was sent for the entire world. its the muslims duty to reach those who he didnt reach, and "thats what im here for".


the original teachings of hamurabi, buddha, hindu, yoruba, etc....could have been islamic teachings, who knows?


>it's cool you consistently provide the
>islamic perspective, and i respect
>your efforts. your use of
>islamic scripture though to validate/prove
>islamic points is circular logic
>and in the case of
>showing your point, null and
>void. notice this: when talking
>about african ideals solarus and
>i point out the aspects
>of western culture that make
>aspiring towards afrikan thinking a
>better solution. giving only afrikan
>examples of "righteousness" won't work
>unless you show that the
>status quo is not "delivering".
>when you only push Islamic
>examples/proof, you fall into the
>realm of using dogma.

i have done this too. "questions for women" thread, for starters.

>*we won't even get into the
>straight up falsehoods right now...

good, b/c i got some unanswered questions myself (could care less if they have been purposely "avoided", i just still want an attempted answer for them.). either one of yall, it dont matter who.

1. what did kmt say about merneptah?
2. what is the ipuwer text?
3. those questions from post #16 on "ancient light from africa" thread.
4. can you name one thing that HUMANS-AFRICAN OR OTHERWISE- HAVE CREATED THAT IS PERFECT?

thats all i can think of now, but im sure there were many more. oh well, i shoulda wrote em down.

subhakallahumma wabihamdika ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa attuubu ilaika

  

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utamaroho

Tue Apr-17-01 01:47 PM

  
9. "RE: for utamaroho and solarus"
In response to Reply # 6


          

when asked, i will say these statements represent my perspective and are applicable only to myself:

if negroes dont get back to practicing the ways of our ancestors, they will never find themselves and will always be lost. they will always be westernized, the "system" will always oppress the african who has no knowledge of himself, etc, etc....

would you say your statements about ALLAH are your opinion? would you say they are applicable to everything?/every person?/everywhere? Better put, would you say your statements of Islam are applicable to anyone? the reason i say your statements are universal, is because you say things like:

i don't care if you from africa or shmafrica, arabia or asia......no HUMAN BEINGS CANNOT COME UP W/ ANYTHING PERFECT, B/C THEY AINT PERFECT

a statement like this is from your obvious personal perspective(WHICH IS RELATIVE) but when challenged by others, you use the same perspective (NON RELATIVE) to support your view.

EXAMPLE:
statement 1 )everybody should pray for allah's forgiveness(relative, cool statement)

when challenged turns into:

2) allah tells us to pray in this surah (non relative dogmatic use of own text, which applies to muslims and does not appeal to the audience who are non-muslims, thus sounding like a zelous christian)

why is this even remotely interesting to me: because the sae thing is done with historical information presented from a so-called "objective" POV.

Also comparing your unviersalizing to mine is not good argument, that's like pointing to a fat person and letting them know that "hey, you're fat and unhealthy" and they point right back at you and say the same. the problem isn't solved, just displaced. just because you say i did the same thing doesn't make you any less wrong for doing so. and yes, there are varying degrees of what the term "universalizing" means, as you've illustrated, just don't use that argument again. it might get you into some trouble one day when someone sets you up in a debate.

anything perfect created by humans or afrikans? no

I AM PERFECT though...

no let's reduce that more... I AM (beyond perfection)



(((((PEACE)))))

  

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mrbozack
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Tue Apr-17-01 07:47 PM

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13. "RE: for utamaroho and solarus"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

"if negroes dont get back to practicing the ways of our ancestors, they will never find themselves and will always be lost. "

Which ancestors? The people who once lived in Ghana? Or in the Congo? From 1000 years ago? or 400 years ago? or 4000 years ago? Perhaps the Nubians, south of Egypt?

Basically, you are saying that Islam was not a part of Africa and so it should be discarded as an innovation and intervention into the natural path of history that Africans would have led. CERTAIN MUSLIMS took part in perpetuating slavery, but read the work of Henry Louis Gates, Jr., and you will understand a remarkable discovery that he made: Prior to the arrival of Muslims or Christians (from Europe or Asia), Western Africa had an "intricate" system of slavery and slave trade amongst the indigenous populations. Muslims didn't create slavery in Africa. Nor did Christians. Nor did ancient African religious traditions. But the actions of certain individuals (of African descent, mind you) initiated the trade of slaves and began the system that the Certain Muslims and Certain Christians saw and exploited.

Islam did not encourage the slave trade. Nor did Christianity. Muslims and Christians did, because ALL humans are fallable and fall victim to poor judgement at some time or another.

You seem to be implying in this entire thread that Black people should return to the traditions of their ancestors. My question is this: Which ancestors, and from how far back? The religious traditions that you described were brought to the Africans from someone or somewhere or they were created by someone or some community. What about before the advent of those traditions? Why not return to the tradition predating that of which you spoke? Since it was there first, it is the TRUE tradition of your TRUE ancestors, right?

I'm just trying to point out the fallacies to which you are subscribing. I mean no offense, i just want to clear up some problems that i am having regarding your thought process.


  

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Solarus
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Wed Apr-18-01 05:58 AM

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17. "Problems"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

HOtep

A few things need to be addressed:

Henry Louis Gates, Jr. (Good ol' Skip) is a BOOTLICKER and his allegiance is clearly to supporting the European-American hegemony that supports and funds him.

To say there was "slavery" and/or "slave trade" among Afrakans prior to Arab/European intervention is misleading (for reference check out works of John Henrik Clarke can't remember exactly which one right now). People throw that term around too loosely. Would you call the penal system of modern-day America a form of slavery? I would. But in common parlance it ISN'T considered a form of slavery. The "slavery" practiced by pre-colonial Afrakans was totally unlike the "chattel slavery" practiced here in America towards enslaved Afrakans. Upon hearing the word "slavery," visions of chattel slavery instantly appear into one's mind.

This distinction must be made because of a fundamental difference between European and Arab enslavement. Afrakans were seen as HUMANS! Throughout Afrakan ourstory their have been national (tribal) disputes between groups. If war or battle was ensued then the victor would "enslave" the loser (war criminals: is this practiced today here in America?). The loser would be put into servitude until there debt was served and/or became functioning members of society. One can see that in "chattel slavery" Afrakans were NOT seen as human and ultimately inferior; and we can still see of the inhumanity of Afrakans in the Arab view in countries such as Sudan and Mauritania. However to be fair slaves under Arab masters could sometimes become part of society if they were to SUBMIT to Allah (see 7th to 8th century Egypt).

This isn't to romanticize Afrakan "slavery" at all but to show how misleading terms can be when applied universally much like the term "god" as I show in "Afrakan Consciousness." Also there are practices based on group dispute and also internal traditions that can be done without. "Slaves" were killed in some instances based on a traditions of institutional vengeance (see Igbo practices in "Things fall Apart" by Chinua Achebe).

Next the going back to Afrakan "traditions" has more to do with using an Afrakan WORLDVIEW practicing TRADITIONS EXACTLY how our ancestors did. The ancestors new that the only constant was CHANGE and that a rigid adherence to tradition was dangerous (eg. symbolism of "Set" in KMT mythoscience). Here is where the Afrakan (Akan) concept of Sankofa comes into play. The Sankofa bird is continually walking forwards while looking back holding an egg in its mouth. The egg represents the ESSENCE of the past as that ESSENCE in the same in the past, present and future, as time is cyclical. Each (Afrakan) group's manifestation of that ESSENCE varies according to time, land, and the challenges with which they (WE) might be faced.

PEace
Solarus

***Words of Wisdom***

"If it's not about NATIONBUILDING, it's not about ANYTHING."- Dr. John Henrik Clarke

"We are not the victims! We are just fighting forces that we cannot see!"-2001 Sankofa Conference

"You don't have the RIGHT to have free time from your children."-Kwame Agyei Akoto

"It is the worst feeling to hear the call of the drum and not be able to respond."-Solarus

On understanding Afrakan thought:
"it's like explaining astrophysics to a whino, the explanation can't be done like that. when people try to simplify it, they ask the other person to tailor the answers their cultural context. and trying to cater afrikan ideals to european understanding is a REAL sin."-utamaroho

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

  

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abduhu
Charter member
1734 posts
Wed Apr-18-01 06:00 AM

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18. "RE: Problems"
In response to Reply # 17


          

Allah says in the 21st Surah, Al Anbiya' (The Prophets):
51. We bestowed aforetime on Abraham his rectitude of conduct, and well were We acquainted with him.
52. Behold! he said to his father and his people, "What are these images, to which ye are (so assiduously) devoted?"
53. They said, "We found our fathers worshipping them."
54. He said, "Indeed ye have been in manifest error - ye and your fathers."
55. They said, "Have you brought us the Truth, or are you one of those who jest?"
56. He said, "Nay, your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, He Who created them (from nothing): and I am a witness to this (Truth).
57. "And by Allah, I have a plan for your idols - after ye go away and turn your backs"..
58. So he broke them to pieces, (all) but the biggest of them, that they might turn (and address themselves) to it.
59. They said, "Who has done this to our gods? He must indeed be some man of impiety!"
60. They said, "We heard a youth talk of them: He is called Abraham."
61. They said, "Then bring him before the eyes of the people, that they may bear witness."
62. They said, "Art thou the one that did this with our gods, O Abraham?"
63. He said: "Nay, this was done by - this is their biggest one! ask them, if they can speak intelligently!"
64. So they turned to themselves and said, "Surely ye are the ones in the wrong!"
65. Then were they confounded with shame: (they said), "Thou knowest full well that these (idols) do not speak!"
66. (Abraham) said, "Do ye then worship, besides Allah, things that can neither be of any good to you nor do you harm?
67. "Fie upon you, and upon the things that ye worship besides Allah. Have ye no sense?"....

subhakallahumma wabihamdika ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa attuubu ilaika

  

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Solarus
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3604 posts
Wed Apr-18-01 12:33 PM

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22. "Point?"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          


____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

  

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abduhu
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1734 posts
Wed Apr-18-01 01:10 PM

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23. "RE: just b/c......"
In response to Reply # 22


          

our forefathers worshipped what they worshipped, dont make it right! the yoruba god could be Allah, from your description of him. never know! what if it turns out he is? then what?

subhakallahumma wabihamdika ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa attuubu ilaika

  

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utamaroho

Wed Apr-18-01 01:15 PM

  
24. "more like"
In response to Reply # 23


          

allah could be the yuruba god...

your's and solarus debate is not on what you believe but the reasons why you believe. you place allah before something that chronologically predates the concept of allah. (unless you say allah started all and there is nothing before him) it's like you use history until history presents an obstacle, and then its back to dogma!

(((((PEACE)))))

  

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Solarus
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Wed Apr-18-01 02:43 PM

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27. "Why AND WHAT"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

HOtep

Why we believe: Arabs (foreigners) told us so. (why did they do that? POWER and CONTROL)
What we believe: The God(HE-creature)-concept is totally non-Afrakan and cannot be applied to AFrakan traditions and/or thought.

PEace
Solarus

***Words of Wisdom***

"If it's not about NATIONBUILDING, it's not about ANYTHING."- Dr. John Henrik Clarke

"We are not the victims! We are just fighting forces that we cannot see!"-2001 Sankofa Conference

"You don't have the RIGHT to have free time from your children."-Kwame Agyei Akoto

"It is the worst feeling to hear the call of the drum and not be able to respond."-Solarus

On understanding Afrakan thought:
"it's like explaining astrophysics to a whino, the explanation can't be done like that. when people try to simplify it, they ask the other person to tailor the answers their cultural context. and trying to cater afrikan ideals to european understanding is a REAL sin."-utamaroho

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

  

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mrbozack
Charter member
378 posts
Wed Apr-18-01 11:34 PM

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28. "RE: more like"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

Something that chronologically predates the concept of Allah? What?? I'm not intending to argue on either side of this argument, but this logic is faulty. something may have come prior to the revelations to Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), or prior to Abraham's life (peace be upon him), etc., but that doesn't mean that the concept of ONE GOD was nonexistent! if the ones to whom you refer did not know of the belief in ONE GOD, it does not negate the existence of that belief. They just did not recieve the message, they were perhaps unaware of the belief.

Again, i'm not trying to argue specifics about the topic, but rather about the statement of predating Allah.

  

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Solarus
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3604 posts
Thu Apr-19-01 06:48 AM

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29. "Conception of the "ONE GOD""
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

Hotep

This is the question at hand. The Islamic conception of the "ONE GOD" is "Allah." This particular conception of the "ONE GOD" shared by Muslims IS predated by others (Kushitic, KMT, Dravidic, Annu, etc.). This is key because the Islamic understanding to the "ONE GOD" is unique and unlike its predecessors. Sure this world was created and thus the Creator was before it but the Islamic conception of the Creator, "Allah" is new to the game and so is HIS (final)word, the Quran.


PEace
Solarus

***Words of Wisdom***

"If it's not about NATIONBUILDING, it's not about ANYTHING."- Dr. John Henrik Clarke

"We are not the victims! We are just fighting forces that we cannot see!"-2001 Sankofa Conference

"You don't have the RIGHT to have free time from your children."-Kwame Agyei Akoto

"It is the worst feeling to hear the call of the drum and not be able to respond."-Solarus

On understanding Afrakan thought:
"it's like explaining astrophysics to a whino, the explanation can't be done like that. when people try to simplify it, they ask the other person to tailor the answers their cultural context. and trying to cater afrikan ideals to european understanding is a REAL sin."-utamaroho

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

  

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Solarus
Charter member
3604 posts
Wed Apr-18-01 02:39 PM

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26. "Allah=Olodumare? Wrong"
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

Hotep
I say this because you are equating your concept of what "god" is to be equal with the Afrakan concept of "god." It doesn't work like that. If my eyes were hurting, if i wasn't hungry and dehydrated, I would write "GOD is IMMANENT" right now. But I can't/won't, alas you must wait again...

But the answers are coming...

PEace
Solarus

***Words of Wisdom***

"If it's not about NATIONBUILDING, it's not about ANYTHING."- Dr. John Henrik Clarke

"We are not the victims! We are just fighting forces that we cannot see!"-2001 Sankofa Conference

"You don't have the RIGHT to have free time from your children."-Kwame Agyei Akoto

"It is the worst feeling to hear the call of the drum and not be able to respond."-Solarus

On understanding Afrakan thought:
"it's like explaining astrophysics to a whino, the explanation can't be done like that. when people try to simplify it, they ask the other person to tailor the answers their cultural context. and trying to cater afrikan ideals to european understanding is a REAL sin."-utamaroho

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

  

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utamaroho

Wed Apr-18-01 06:04 AM

  
20. "RE: Problems"
In response to Reply # 17


          

However to be fair slaves under Arab masters could sometimes become part of society if they were to SUBMIT to Allah (see 7th to 8th century Egypt).

RELIGIOUS IMPERIALISM

sort of like-

imperialist: "hey utamaroho, we've taken over your home, family, land and farms. we won't kill you if you stat eating meat and cooked food like us. so take your pick...die or convert"

(((((PEACE)))))

  

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abduhu
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1734 posts
Tue Apr-24-01 11:57 AM

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30. "on behalf of mr. bozack......"
In response to Reply # 13


          

>"if negroes dont get back to
>practicing the ways of our
>ancestors, they will never find
>themselves and will always be
>lost. "
>
>Which ancestors? The people who
>once lived in Ghana? Or
>in the Congo? From 1000
>years ago? or 400
>years ago? or 4000
>years ago? Perhaps the
>Nubians, south of Egypt?

yall covered "the bootlicker", but inadvertantly forgot to cover these above?
which ancestors and how long ago? or does it even matter as long as it is "afrakan"?

subhakallahumma wabihamdika ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa attuubu ilaika

  

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Solarus
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3604 posts
Tue Apr-24-01 12:20 PM

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31. "From #17"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

Hotep

"Next the going back to Afrakan "traditions" has more to do with using an Afrakan WORLDVIEW practicing TRADITIONS EXACTLY how our ancestors did. The ancestors new that the only constant was CHANGE and that a rigid adherence to tradition was dangerous (eg. symbolism of "Set" in KMT mythoscience). Here is where the Afrakan (Akan) concept of Sankofa comes into play. The Sankofa bird is continually walking forwards while looking back holding an egg in its mouth. The egg represents the ESSENCE of the past as that ESSENCE in the same in the past, present and future, as time is cyclical. Each (Afrakan) group's manifestation of that ESSENCE varies according to time, land, and the challenges with which they (WE) might be faced."

Main purpose is to go back. Where can we go back to? Since most Afrakans in the Americas are from West and Central Afraka, why not start there? Instead of giving up before you begin, OPEN YOUR OWN EYES. These areas possess a wealth of traditions that are still intact (despite alien suppression). Dogon, Yoruba, Akan, Kikongo, etc.


PEace
Solarus

***Words of Wisdom***

"If it's not about NATIONBUILDING, it's not about ANYTHING."- Dr. John Henrik Clarke

"We are not the victims! We are just fighting forces that we cannot see!"-2001 Sankofa Conference

"You don't have the RIGHT to have free time from your children."-Kwame Agyei Akoto

"It is the worst feeling to hear the call of the drum and not be able to respond."-Solarus

On understanding Afrakan thought:
"it's like explaining astrophysics to a whino, the explanation can't be done like that. when people try to simplify it, they ask the other person to tailor the answers their cultural context. and trying to cater afrikan ideals to european understanding is a REAL sin."-utamaroho

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

  

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abduhu
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1734 posts
Tue Apr-24-01 12:39 PM

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32. "aaiight."
In response to Reply # 31


          


subhakallahumma wabihamdika ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa attuubu ilaika

  

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abduhu
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Wed Apr-18-01 03:47 AM

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14. "RE: for utamaroho and solarus"
In response to Reply # 9


          

bismillah

>would you say your statements about
>ALLAH are your opinion?

no. they are from Him in His book. and any WRONG THING that i have said about Him, comes from the prompting of shaytan and my own self.

Better put,
>would you say your statements
>of Islam are applicable to
>anyone?

no. but they can be applied by ANYONE who wishes to apply them.
i myself applied certain islamic practices b4 becoming muslim. and i must say they certainly were beneficial.

the reason i say
>your statements are universal, is
>because you say things like:
>
>
>i don't care if you from
>africa or shmafrica, arabia or
>asia......no HUMAN BEINGS CANNOT COME
>UP W/ ANYTHING PERFECT, B/C
>THEY AINT PERFECT
>
>a statement like this is from
>your obvious personal perspective(WHICH IS
>RELATIVE) but when challenged by
>others, you use the same
>perspective (NON RELATIVE) to support
>your view.

no its not. its from Allah. not necessarily in those exact words, but round about. and as far as the above statement is concerned, it waS challenged by NO ONE.

"Do they not consider the Qur’an with care. If it had been from other than Allah (God) it would contain many contradictions. (Qur’an An-Nisa 4:82)

oops, did i just do it again?


>EXAMPLE:
>statement 1 )everybody should pray for
>allah's forgiveness(relative, cool statement)
>
>when challenged turns into:
>
>2) allah tells us to pray
>in this surah (non relative
>dogmatic use of own text,
>which applies to muslims and
>does not appeal to the
>audience who are non-muslims, thus
>sounding like a zelous christian)

the problem w/ the above is: it is not an example of something that i have, am saying, or would say. you sound foolish implying that I would even fix my mouth or brain to relay such nonsense. how and why, could i and would i, tell someone to pray for Allah's forgiveness, if i know that they dont really know who Allah is? they have to know who Allah is b4 they ask. its like you asking the orishas (or whoever) for something and you think that they are other than what they are.
i understand it is an example, and you were not saying that i said that. i understand what you are trying to say, but it is a sorry example. if you feel i didnt get the gist, try again.



>why is this even remotely interesting
>to me: because the sae
>thing is done with historical
>information presented from a so-called
>"objective" POV.
>
>Also comparing your unviersalizing to mine
>is not good argument.
why is it "universal" for ppl to point the finger, but not be able to accept getting pointed at. i OPENLY admitted mine. you hid yours in the above statement: "comparing your unviersalizing to mine". what an admission and key to solving your problem.

that's
>like pointing to a fat
>person and letting them know
>that "hey, you're fat and
>unhealthy" and they point right
>back at you and say
>the same.
the problem isn't
>solved, just displaced.

exactly. so why are you doing it? weigh yourself b4 you put me on the scale!

just because
>you say i did the
>same thing doesn't make you
>any less wrong for doing
>so.

i never said it did. and was not trying to escape it. i admitted it, didnt i?
what you fail to realize is that there are some generalizations and universalizations that im comfortable making. and the statement about humans not being able to make anything perfect-is one of them. and you agreed w/ me.
like you USED to say quite frequently: i call it like i see it. and the otherone about the duck being a duck, so call it a duck.

and yes, there are
>varying degrees of what the
>term "universalizing" means, as you've
>illustrated, just don't use that
>argument again. it might get
>you into some trouble one
>day when someone sets you
>up in a debate.

it just might. if i AM EVEN DEBATING w/.

btw, since there is NOTHING confirmed in a translation of the original text about merneptah and his life (and its obvious you dont trust the europeans enough to use theirs, so i dont expect you to come back later using theirs), you cant dispute w/ the quran about whether or not the events w/ Moses and merneptah (pharoah) actually took place, can you?

in other words: you cant disprove it, like i cant prove it.
in other other words: the quran is still standing and hasnt been proved otherwise!

>anything perfect created by humans or
>afrikans? no
like i said. didnt think so.

>no let's reduce that more... I
>AM (beyond perfection)
lets just say for sake that you really were.
wouldnt and couldnt you get it right the first time, w/o having to come back and explain and justify? i mean really....that's perfection and beyond!!!

subhakallahumma wabihamdika ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa attuubu ilaika

  

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utamaroho

Tue Apr-17-01 02:06 PM

  
10. "RE: for utamaroho and solarus"
In response to Reply # 6


          

1. what did kmt say about merneptah?
2. what is the ipuwer text?
3. those questions from post #16 on "ancient light from africa" thread.

i'm not qualified to answer these questions the way i want to yet. not until i learn how to read hieroglyphs/demotic/coptic...catch me in a few years though.

brifly explain (the first two questions) reasons why you seek these answers? in my journey to read the language, i will keep them in mind. i've heard of them but don't KNOW.

What do you think of circular logic(begging the question)?

I once had a friend who said she believs in the god of the bible because she had "faith". when asked specifically about where her faith came from, and specifics about it, she spouted bible verses. when i analyzed the bible ad presented "flaws", she went back to the "faith" argument and said "well i believe that the bible is accurate, i have faith". when asked about her faith, she again used the bible for refernce. and so on and so forth...

basically, using a text to justify a personal belief. and when asked about the text, using personal belief to substantiate it.

note: that this personal belief is beyond the realm of attack since it is "personal" and "untouchable." this plays on peoples' tendency to not attack others' personal belief so that one's own are not crticized.




(((((PEACE)))))

  

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Solarus
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Wed Apr-18-01 02:31 PM

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25. "Answers"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

Hotep

For the record I never thought you were avoiding those questions. I have so many questions, asked towards me and considering my schoolwork (that I have been avoinding) and other obligations, I put many of the questions on the backburner. The Merneptah and Ipuwer were not forgotten nor dismissed. I have been planning to make a post about it since "the Quran" thing went down, but I have been lazy. (BTW I thought I answered the merneptah question?) Anyways here it goes.

Q/A

1. what did kmt say about merneptah?

"Baenre Merneptah, the thirteenth son and eventual successor of Ramses II, was forced to repel a major foray into Kmt by a violent confederation of Sea Peoples--the perpetrators of rampant devastation in the eastern Mediterranean and northern Africa during the latter portion of the second millennium B.C.E." taken from Afrakan historian Runoko Rashidi's website:http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/kmt4.html.

This was during the 19th Dynasty between the years of 1295-1187 BCE. The "Sea Peoples" were Indo-European invaders of KMT during the 19th and 20th Dynasties. They caused much destruction throughout the Mediterranean and North Afraka during the 12th and 13th centuries BCE.

2. what is the ipuwer text?

This took me awhile. Granted I don't read mdw ntr (hieroglyphics) so I am at the mercy of translations. The first thing I had to do is find out if the text was REAL and where I would be able to find it. The actual text is housed in the Leiden Museum of Holland, so it does "exist." Now time for validity. Because of many FORGERIES that have been made of KMTic documents/artifacts (see bust of Nefertiti or statues of Rehotep and his wife), it is entirely possible and probable that the document was created in modern times to validate Biblical propaganda. However the jury is still out on that I have found no tangible evidence to say it is a fake.

Now for the politics. When was this comparison to the Biblical/Quranic "plagues of Egypt" made and by whom? It was made by Alan H. Gardiner in his 1909 book, _The Admonitions of an Egyptian from a heiratic papyrus in Leiden_. Knowing anything about the field of "egyptology," one knows that:

1) Westerners/Europeans are trying to understand Afrakan thought from a Western perspective (see the sig).
2) Egyptology has been largely been influenced by propagandistic ventures thus leading to false, omitted and/or distortedhistorical facts.
3) Egyptologists at the turn of the 19th century were still in the early stages of the field thus had a very limited WESTERN understanding of the KMTic culture. (Western understanding is ALREADY limited in understanding non-Western culture.)

The ten plague-Ipuwer argument is solely based on Gardiner's work. He asserted that the work was a writing of an Kemite in the 12th dynasty writing problems of KMT during the 10th Dynasty. The 10th dynasty occurred during the First Intermediate Period which was characterized by internal governmental breakdown and decentration of power. (Note here that Merneptah was alive during the 19th dynasty).

Later with the increase of dating technology, the papyrus was dated as being within the 19th dynasty (Merneptah =19th,hmmm... read on). This was Gardiner's first mistake. More were to follow suit. With more KMTic documents in circulation and a general understanding of the different writing styles and genres used during each period, later Egyptologists as early as 1969, concluded that text is actually a FICTIONAL story allegory.
From Miriam Lichtheim's _Ancient Egyptian Literature_:

"The unhistorical character of the whole genre was recognized by S. Luria in an article that did not receive the attention it deserved. (*It's interesting that the article was not recognized. It was written in 1929.) Adducing strikingly similar compositions from other cultures he pointed out the fictional, mythologic-messianic nature of these works and the fixed cliches through which the theme of "social chaos was express....

Luria made the telling point that the description of chaos in _the Admonitions_ is inherently contradictory, hence historically impossible: One the one hand the land is said to suffer from total want; on the other hand the poor are described as having become rich, of wearing fine clothes, and generally disposing of all that once belonged to their masters."- parentheses mine

For a little more understanding. _The Admonitions of Ipuwer_ is the tale told by a Kemite named Ipuwer about the national distress that is occurring. In the end of the tale, the King of the land gives a speech to Ipuwer saying that the people of KMT are solely to blame for their problems and not any foreigners. In fact, he asserts that they have nothing to fear from foreigners as they fear KMT.

See why I procrastinated in writing this? DAMN, what time is it?!!

3. those questions from post #16 on "ancient light from africa"
thread.

I'll address them (particularly the African -Muslim conversion issue) in "GOD is IMMANENT" that I'll be writing shortly.

4. can you name one thing that HUMANS-AFRICAN OR OTHERWISE- HAVE CREATED THAT IS PERFECT?

Sankofa. "It is not taboo to go back and fetch what you have forgotten." This concept fueled by an Afrakan worldview are asserts that WE ONE WITH THE CREATOR. However the "intelligence" (which is a tool that we use and NOT the total extent of the FORCE that WE ARE) is what is limited. The concept of SANKOFA allows us to CONTINUALLY "fix" any mistake that our "intelligence" has caused.

Remember my old sig: "To be perfect is to lack nothing essential to the whole therefore I AM."-Solarus


PEace
Solarus

***Words of Wisdom***

"If it's not about NATIONBUILDING, it's not about ANYTHING."- Dr. John Henrik Clarke

"We are not the victims! We are just fighting forces that we cannot see!"-2001 Sankofa Conference

"You don't have the RIGHT to have free time from your children."-Kwame Agyei Akoto

"It is the worst feeling to hear the call of the drum and not be able to respond."-Solarus

On understanding Afrakan thought:
"it's like explaining astrophysics to a whino, the explanation can't be done like that. when people try to simplify it, they ask the other person to tailor the answers their cultural context. and trying to cater afrikan ideals to european understanding is a REAL sin."-utamaroho

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

  

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Sudani
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Tue Apr-17-01 11:28 AM

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5. "RE: ISLAM!?! African!?! Gimme a break"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>Islam and African-Americans
>(from http://www.geocities.com/roots_n_rooted/islam.html)
>
>It almost goes without saying these
>days. Africentric people know better
>
>than to be affiliated with european
>culture or religion. (Sorry for
>my
>candor, but today we are going
>to keep it real.) Most
>people don't realize
>that for over 1,000 years Europeans
>have been trying to subjugate
>Africans.
>Whether it be with war or
>religion, they have been fighting
>to tie our
>minds and confuse us politically and
>spiritually. Am I wrong? Now,
>I
>know this is a generalization. But
>we know that it general,
>this is the
>essence of things. Most of us
>picked that up by studying
>history.
>
>But how did it come to
>pass that more and more
>black people are adopting
>Islam as their faith of choice.
>Why don't we ever talk
>about the role
>that Islam played in destroying Africa?


like what?


Perhaps it is because of
>all
>the positive things that the Nation
>of Islam has done in
>the black community
>that we are now giving the
>entire Islamic community a free
>ride.

okay. what positive things are the noi doing for the community?



For
>sure no other black organization has
>had the commitement to work
>with
>black people from all walks of
>life. (Note that I called
>the Nation of
>Islam an organization, and not a
>religious organization.)
>
>Malcolm X is of course a
>shining example of how the
>Nation worked in
>a positive manner to turn around
>the lives of many people.
>Malcolm X
>was a drug dealer, school drop
>out, pimp, thug and ex-convict
>that was
>transformed into a respectful, intelligent, informed
>voice for Africans
>in America. No denying it, that
>was the doing of the
>Nation of Islam.
>But I just can't get over
>the idea that black people
>are once again taking
>on the ways of people that
>have enslaved, colonized and basically
>disrespected
>us. It was Malcolm's own words
>that got me to thinking
>about whether
>Africans were just trading one master
>for another. "Just because you
>
>put kittens in an oven that
>does not make them biscuits."
>Within the
>context of To me, this meant
>that just because the Nation
>of Islam has
>done many good things in the
>black community this does not
>mean that
>Islam is good for black people.

Malcolm X died as El Hajj Malik El Shabbaz. hmmmm.


Maybe being in the Nation
>got a lot of
>people off the streets, working, organizing,
>but so does the Black
>church.
>So could the United Way or
>a job training program. It's
>does not make
>the United Way or the temp
>agency a source of Black
>culture. And it is
>high time that black people live
>within the confines of their
>own culture.
>* see bottom for further explanation.*
>
>
>Regardless of the good work that
>the Nation of Islam has
>done in the
>black community, it is hard to
>ignore the long history of
>violence and
>racism suffered at the hands of
>Arabs. Arabs were the first
>outside group
>to enslave Africans on a large
>scale. A book worth reading
>is "Two Thousand
>Seasons". It details all the violations
>of African human rights that
>
>took place at the hand of
>Arabs during the times of
>ancient slavery.


who is the author of this book?

Ayi Kwei Armah (1939-)



Ghanaian novelist and poet, known for his visionary symbolism, poetic energy, and extremely high moral integrity of his political vision. Armah's first three novels were hailed as modernistic prose, while his next two were praised for their Afrocentrism. Armah has lived and worked in the different cultural zones of Africa. Much of Armah's earlier work deals with the betrayed ideals of Ghanaian nationalism and Nkrumahist socialism.

...
"Ra's no self-created god
Ra is our self-creation
Ra is us
embracing space
traversing time. So
no my love
whatever we've run short of
this hasty day
its name cannot be
time."
(from 'Seed Time')
Ayi Kwei Armah was born in 1939 to Fante-speaking parents in the twin harbor city of Sekondi Takoradi, in western Ghana. On his father's side Armah was descended from a royal family in the Ga tribe. He attended the prestigious Achimota College. In 1959 he went on scholarship to the Groton School in Groton, Massachusetts. After graduating he entered Harvard University, receiving a degree in sociology. Armah then moved to Algeria and worked as a translator for the magazine Révolution Africaine. In 1964 Armah returned to Ghana, where he was a scriptwriter for Ghana Television and later taught English at the Navarongo School. Between the years 1967 and 1968 he was editor of Jeune Afrique magazine in Paris. In 1968-70 Armah studied at Columbia University, obtaining his M.F.A. in creative writing.

In the 1970s Armah worked as a teacher in East Africa, at the College of National Education, Chamg'omge, Tanzania, and at the National University of Lesotho. He has also lived in Dakar, Senegal from the 1980s and taught at Amherst, and University of Wisconsin at Madison.

Armah started his career as a writer in the 1960s. He published poems and short stories in the Ghanaian magazine Okyeame, and in Harper's, The Atlantic Monthly, and New African. Armah's first novel, The Beautyful Ones Are not Yet Born, appeared in 1968. The allegorical story depicts the life of an anonymously railway office clerk, simply called "the man," and his daily struggle in the slums against poverty on one side and material greed on the other. He is pressured by his acquisitive family and fellow workers to accept the norms of society, bribery and corruption in order to guarantee his family a comfortable life. His virtues go largely unrewarded, his wife thinks him a fool, and his relatives prosper. At the end of the novel, the moral strength of "the man" is contrasted to a once-powerful politician who has been deposed in a military coup.

In Fragments (1971), the protagonist, Baako, is a "been-to", a man who has been to the United States and received his education there. Back in Ghana he is regarded with superstitious awe as a link to the Western life style. Baako's grandmother, Naana, is a blind-seer, who understands Baako and who stands in living contact with the ancestors. Under the strain of the unfilled expectations Baako finally breaks. As in his first novel, Armah contrasts the two worlds of materialism and moral values, corruption and dreams, two worlds of integrity and social pressure. Why Are We So Blest? (1972) was set largely in an American University, and focused on a student, Modin Dofu, who has dropped out of Harvard. Disillusioned Modin is torn between independence and Western values. He meets a Portugese black African named Solo, who has already suffered a mental breakdown, and a white American girl, Aimée Reitsch. Solo, the rejected writer, keeps a diary, which is the substance of the novel. Aimée's frigidity and devotion to the revolution leads finally to destruction, when Modin is killed in the desert by O.A.S. revolutionaries.

...
"they dream of substituting
another small tight group
for the one serving its bitter time
at the tip of
the overripe colonial abscess
on this sliver of our continental home
we'we been connected into calling
our state."
(from 'News')
Two Thousand Seasons (1973) is an epic, in which a pluralized communal voice speaks through the history of Africa, its wet and dry seasons, from a period of one thousand years. Characterization is concerned only with the representation of the group experience and collective states and feelings. Armah depicts Arab and European oppressors, "predators," "destroyers," and "zombies," and prophesies a new age. The novel is written in allegorical tone, and shifts from autobiographical and realistic details to philosophical pondering. The Healers (1979) mixed fact and fiction about the fall of the celebrated Ashante empire. The healers in question are traditional medicine practitioners who see fragmentation as the lethal disease of Africa. In the 1980s Armah remained silent as a novelist. In 1995 published novel Osiris Rising depicted a radical educational reform group, which reinstates ancient Egypt at the center of its curriculum.

Armah has often been regarded as belonging to the next generation of African writers after Chinua Achebe and Wole Soyinka. At the same time he is said to "epitomize an era of intense despair." Especially Armah's later work have aroused strong reaction from many critics. Two Thousand Seasons has been labelled dull and verbose, although Wole Soyinka considered its vision secular and humane.

As an essayist Armah has dealt with the identity and predicament of Africa. His main concern is for the establishment of a pan-African agency that will rope all the diverse cultures and languages of the continent. Armah has called for the adoption of Kiswahili as the continental language.

For further reading: Ayi Kwei Armah, Radical Iconoclast by Ode Ogede (2000); Encyclopedia of World Literature in the 20th Century, ed. by Steven R. Serafin (1999, vol. 1); Postcolonial African Writers, ed. by Pushpa Naidu Parekh and Siga Fatima Jagne (1998); An African Focus - A Study of Ayi Kwei Armah’s Narrative Africanization by Leif Lorentzon (1998); The Existential Fiction of Ayi Kwei Armah, Albert Camus, and Jean-Paul Sartre by Tommie L. Jackson (1996); The Wisdom of the Ages by Yaa Oforiwaa, Akili Addae (1995); Novels of Ayi Kwei Armah by K. Damodar Rao (1993); Critical Perspective on Ayi Kwei Armah, ed. by Derek Wright (1992); Ayi Kwei Armah's Africa by Derek Wright (1989); The Novels of Ayi Kwei Armah by Robert Frase (1980)
Selected bibliography:

"African Socialism:Utopian or Scientifi", 1967 (Présense Africaine 64)
The Beautyful One Are Not Yet Born, 1968
"The Offal Kind", 1969 (short story)
Fragments, 1970 - suom. Pirstaleita
Why Are We So Blest?, 1972 - suom. Mistä meille tämä armo?
Two Thousand Seasons, 1973
The Healers, 1978
"The Caliban Complex", 1985 (West Africa, March 18 and 25)
"The Festival Syndrome", 1985 (West Africa, April 15)
"Dakar Hieroglyphics, 1986 (West Africa, May 19)
"Doctor Kamikaze", 1989 (short story)
Osiris Rising, 1995



>You could say they provided an
>example for Europeans to follow.
>Africans
>were used for labor and leisure
>throughout the Middle East. Under
>the
>guise of Allah-sanctioned Jihads (holy wars)
>many African nations were
>colonized and enslaved. So, are we
>to believe that God told
>the Arabs
>to enslave us and introduce Islam
>to Africa by way of
>the sword?

very ignorant question.

I doubt
>it. Just like God didn't tell
>the Christians to come to
>Africa and "save
>our souls." Now, I might be
>able to forgive this little
>lie except that
>both christians and muslims continue to
>say that God wants them
>to convert
>the world.

Allah does not want us to convert the world. Allah wants us to introduce Islam to people and also correct many false beliefs stemmed from media exposure and due to lack of education and investigation.


I find it hard
>to believe the God only
>talks to muslims and
>christians.



>There are still reports to this
>day of African slavery in
>the Middle
>East.


Where are these reports please?

Are not the perpetrators of
>these actions Muslims themselves? The
>
>same people that persecute their women
>and encourage chauvinist tendancies
>in their men?

okay. now that is trait up too much tv. whoever wrote this is straight-up ignorant. Who the hell is pursecuting me? Why the hell as a woman would i choose a way of life that persecutes me? Why in the hell would i after being abused by men in this society choose a way that abuses me? that is an insult to ALL women. this person calls muslim men chauvinists(basically)how is this? it sounds as if this person feels that the majority of women who make a consciouse decision to be muslim are sick in the head. but yet this assumtion is extremely sexist when the writer relys on popular belief and not accurate information. i tired of this bs. really tho. it seems like all people are concerned with are women! oh, i cant see her hair and her body! oh! that is oppression! NO. you are the one being oppressed by women who cover because they will not let you get a glance. our body is OUR business. these negros have problems with not being able to see you and judge you by your body instead of your intelligence and they hide behind it with an attack.lame.



This does not
>sound like the west Africa
>from which 90%
>of African-Americans can find their ancestry.
>Are we to give this
>culture
>a free ride because black people
>made something good out of
>it (in spite
>of it's origins?).

Does this person even KNOW Islams origins? obviously NOT.

So here we
>end up asking ourselves another
>question;
>how did black people again >up following the religion] of
>those that
>have enslaved them?

tell me how a religion enslaves me? please. how did it enslave me? you hide the fact that many NON-MUSLIM Africans participated in the slave trade. Get it right or pay the price.


>When you become a muslim exactly
>what do you really become
>anyway? It
>seems that a lot of Africans
>(Blacks) in America sought refuge
>in Islam
>during the conscious movement of the
>60s and 70s. These people
>were looking
>for a way to connect with
>their own culture. Most of
>these people were
>interested in eradicating all the european
>(white) influences in their
>lives and got involved in Islam
>because they mistakingly believed that
>
>Islam was of African origin.


Again
>in the 80s and early
>90s more African
>fled the ways of white america,
>which they considered racist and
>oppressive,
>in favor of Islam and what
>they knew to be a
>different way of doing things.

i guess all of these people are stupid. they are not intelligent and did not investigate the claims of oppression and enslavement. yeah, they stupid too. women and black just don't have brains. when you post and article like this you look like a desperate christian willing to misinterpret ANYTHING to get people to be "on your side". it shouldn't even be about THAT. it should be about encouraging investigation and education.


>These individuals now pray in arabic
>(if they are good muslims),
>they
>(women) wear their hair covered in
>a middle eastern manner

more problems with covered women......

, prescribe
>
>to the thought that Mecca is
>the Holy Land, and use
>traditional, and
>more stoic arabic culture to define
>ediquette and ethics within their
>
>households.

oh i am sorry, please walk into my house with your shoes on...
please, don't eat with your right hand(your hands contain digestive enzymes) eat with your left hand instead(ya know, the one you just wiped your butt with)? Hey! instead of washing the urine a fecal matter off of your body with water(as you would if it landed in your plate) just smear it with some paper or something(as you would do if it landed in your plate?).



While we can say that
>muslims are less than likely
>to be
>drinkers, drug abusers, or social thugs,
>can we say that they
>are expressing
>their pride in being black?

drinking - taught to us by europeans
drug abuse - taught and provided with care from europeans
social thuggery - taught to us and encouraged by europeans



Are
>they any closer to the
>freedom that they
>desired when they left christianity and
>white american values? Maybe
>they are living more clean lives,
>but they can not say
>that they arrived
>at their original objective of knowing
>themselves better.

Knowing myself better? i don't even know who my fathers father is. will i just go and "pick a culture"? no. will i just go and trust anybody from Africa? no. that is ignorant. so what are you trying to encourage people to do? i KNOW that i know more people who have been in Africa than you do. African-American muslims who lived there and had the chance to observe for themselves the things that go on there, in different countries, with different people. As serious as they are about thier heritage and culture, they would have surely denounced Islam if they found that Islam was for oppression and tyranny of non-arabs or arabs.


Or are they
>
>simply trading one master for another?
>


Sounds more like the writer of this OH-SO ignorant article has taken ignorance as his master.

  

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utamaroho

Tue Apr-17-01 01:06 PM

  
8. "condense responese..."
In response to Reply # 5


          

avoid overuse of copy/pasting...explain points in own words in full cohesive sentences. perhaps using quotes of most important passages that you respond to. i know while reading responses a multitude of ideas spring up, but refine those initial thoughts into the most poignant.

(((((PEACE)))))

  

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AbdulJaleel
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Tue Apr-17-01 12:54 PM

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7. "not worth answering"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

you are a mushriq, munafiq, faasiqun... and instead of seeing the good, that Islam in Africa brought you'd rather justify being a denizen of the narr.

why did i even answer?
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Solarus
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3604 posts
Tue Apr-17-01 05:33 PM

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11. "Excerpts used in the Article"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"What is religion but the deification of ancestors, the making sacred of traditions within the context and history. How can we honor any god who was used against us? The only people who accept alien gods are defeated people; all others honor and accept their own name for the Almighty. We must learn to appreciate ourselves and our traditions. What is wrong with the African God?
What would we think of a Yoruba who accepted Chinese ancestors as his own? We would find it quite interesting and wonder how it came to be. But what of Africans' acceptance of others' gods? Is there no tradition with these alien gods? Of course there is tradition with these gods! To accept the Jews' god or the Arabs' god or the Hindu's god and so forth is to valorize those histories above your own. Indeed, it is to honor the names in those myths and stories higher than your own stories, it is to love the language, the places in their stories above your own. Why is Mecca, Rome, or Jerusalem more sacred that Bosumtwi? Quite simply, it is imperialism, not by force of arms, but by force of religion which sometimes comes armed."- Dr. Molefi Asante


"The slave trade: consequence of the explorations. European or Arabic, the slave trade always had a destructive effect on the African society.....the principal sources of slaves for markets in Arabia, the Middle East, and the New World. The trade had devastating effects"

"...the arab general Amr-ibn-al-As entered Alexandria (In Egypt) in 642 A.D. with four thousand men. The conquest of (Black) Egypt by the Muslim armies was not only to change the character of Egyptian Civilization radically, but it was to have disasterous impact on the dignity and destiny of Africans as a people. The Arab conquest had opend the floodgates wider and Arabs poured in. Colonization and Islamization progressed. As Egypt became a main center for Arab power, this fact found contrete expression in Arab-Islamic expansion over North Africa, into Spain, and southward in what remained as "The Land of the Blacks.".."with eventual conquest of the Sudan through mosques and traders."
Destruction of Black Civilizations, Chancellor Williams


***Words of Wisdom***

"If it's not about NATIONBUILDING, it's not about ANYTHING."- Dr. John Henrik Clarke

"We are not the victims! We are just fighting forces that we cannot see!"-2001 Sankofa Conference

"You don't have the RIGHT to have free time from your children."-Kwame Agyei Akoto

"It is the worst feeling to hear the call of the drum and not be able to respond."-Solarus

On understanding Afrakan thought:
"it's like explaining astrophysics to a whino, the explanation can't be done like that. when people try to simplify it, they ask the other person to tailor the answers their cultural context. and trying to cater afrikan ideals to european understanding is a REAL sin."-utamaroho

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

  

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abduhu
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1734 posts
Wed Apr-18-01 03:52 AM

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15. "seriously, i read this article......"
In response to Reply # 0


          

a couple of weeks ago, b4 the ifa practioner's link was posted.
i was gonna post it myself and the fallacies of it, but i decided to let someone else do it. and someone else did!

anyway......
ok. lets say that he has a point about the "african americans".

what about the "africans"?
all of the stuff hes saying about the af-ams cant be applied to the afs.

subhakallahumma wabihamdika ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa attuubu ilaika

  

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utamaroho

Wed Apr-18-01 05:46 AM

  
16. "i like you abduhu, really i do..."
In response to Reply # 15


          

why did you embrace islam? what made you convert from christianity?

(((((PEACE)))))

  

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abduhu
Charter member
1734 posts
Wed Apr-18-01 06:02 AM

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19. "RE: i like you too."
In response to Reply # 16


          

the same thing that made you embrace afrakan ways.....the unacceptable status quo, man. the unacceptable status quo.

subhakallahumma wabihamdika ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa attuubu ilaika

  

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