As to start with an overly simplistic outline from which to build upon, I deemed it necessary to re-post this chart of basic differences between the underlying cultural core/worldview of the Afrakan and European. This is a foundational map from which further cultural nuisances can emanate. The English and Italian like the Zulu and Akan possess differences between each other but one can find a similar orientation that they share towards defining the world (conceptual system).

Afrakan vs. European

Basic Assumptions/Cosmological view:

Natural Order vs Natural Chaos

Complementarity vs Opposing Opposites

Philosophical Orientation:

Spiritualism vs Materialism

Collectivism vs.Individualism

Cultural Focus:

Culture optimal For Each specific Group vs One's own culture is optimal for every other group

Psychological Model :

Cultural Context of Behavior vs Individual Behavior

Cultural Differences In Psychological Functioning vs Western Psychological Functioning as Standard

Holistic/internal (self-knowledge) vs Empiricism/External



"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

Cultural Focus:

Culture optimal For Each specific Group vs One's own culture is optimal for every other group

&

Cultural Differences In Psychological Functioning vs Western Psychological Functioning as Standard

Here's an example: the statement "Prostitution is the oldest profession" is an European asssertion, one made without even observing ALL cultures, just self. After obseving self and coming up with statements like "human nature" and "everybody does it", western (european) culture goes on to apply its template onto others. Everybody understand so far? Any questions?





"You're comparing apples and oranges, my friend. Oversimplification is not the way to "win" an argument. I'm glad you're convinced that what you're doing is right. Are they giving out prizes to the people who bring in the most converts this week?" janey (my new heroine) to abduhu. not a diss, just a clear glimpse of the truth.

"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

>>it is human nature to be concerned about the INDIVIDUAL instead of the population. -posted by wolfie in "human nature" thread.

Solarus described one aspect of afrikan culture here in saying:

Collectivism vs.Individualism

However, a westerner looking at self will lay his perceptual template over others with ease, being ignorant of others thoughts
on an issue, as the above example illustrates.

(((((PEACE)))))

"You're comparing apples and oranges, my friend. Oversimplification is not the way to "win" an argument. I'm glad you're convinced that what you're doing is right. Are they giving out prizes to the people who bring in the most converts this week?" janey (my new heroine) to abduhu. not a diss, just a clear glimpse of the truth.

"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

European culture believes in this philosophy...
sick

peace...

https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

and no other culture separated god/the divine from science, medicine, mathematics, everyday life either

(((((PEACE)))))

"You're comparing apples and oranges, my friend. Oversimplification is not the way to "win" an argument. I'm glad you're convinced that what you're doing is right. Are they giving out prizes to the people who bring in the most converts this week?" janey (my new heroine) to abduhu. not a diss, just a clear glimpse of the truth.

"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

I just saw that and was like

DAMN EUROPEANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WILL THEY EVER LEARN????????????????????

I doubt it.

PEace
Solarus

"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

you know how sensitive people can be...

i'm really trying this water technique

"You're comparing apples and oranges, my friend. Oversimplification is not the way to "win" an argument. I'm glad you're convinced that what you're doing is right. Are they giving out prizes to the people who bring in the most converts this week?" janey (my new heroine) to abduhu. not a diss, just a clear glimpse of the truth.

"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

Well, not mine anyway...

It has nothing to do with being "civil" or "non-offensive" because I think white people need to be shaken up.

Basically, the "water-technique" is teaching. IF they have something to say, then they get taught *grins*, however, talking amongst ourselves, it is most important to bring one's self to the table...

and it is totally within keeping to express dismay and/or pity towards those practitioners of Eurocentric culture because they are truly worth pity and dismay.

Yeah?

Peace,

Q


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^*********^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Uplifting thoughts:

"We are the end result of our ancestors prayers as they died. We you are the sum total of their answered prayers."

"I am because we are; we are because I am."

____________


"When the revolution comes, "faggots" won't be so funny." - The Last Poets

** Most people mis-read this line. I don't think he is being homophobic. I think he's making sure you folks know, within our communities, those of you who laugh at

I know that's right baby! I see you are still dropping straight knowledge! I agree with you, they need to be shaken up! I'm busy shaking up some white kid over there on the board about the William's sisters!


How can I translate my experience in any other way than the way I received it!!!
White people need to understand that conversations about race are not comfortable, they can't be if real understanding and learning is to take place!

I have to describe my experience with the pain, so if you feel it in my response, don't get mad, just understand that life is real!

How can I translate my experience in any other way than the way I received it!!!
White people need to understand that conversations about race are not comfortable, they can't be if real understanding and learning is to take place!

I have to describe my experience with the pain, so if you feel it in my response, don't get mad, just understand that life is real!

Don't you hate it when people say "human nature" when what they're really saying is "My culture teaches us that it is normal to...."

Perfect example of someon exercising the the "Optimal culture for the whole" worldview instead of the "Optimal for each group."

Ph.D.

yeah, but prostitution is the oldest profession....if ya aint got shit else, ya can always sell ya-----....

but these are some interesting comparisons......when considering shit like this, personal experiences, and observing history(which europeans have mostly authored) it is incredibly hard to not ask "WHUT THE FUCC IS WRONG WIT THOSE FOLKS!!!" but nonetheless, I refrain from being a racist...at least no more racist than they are.......but the general attitudes and different views cannot be ignored....

hmmmm kinda makes ya wonder......Why is it like that????

What drives the europeans to conquer and dominate instead of just chill out and live.........hmmmmm......

I dunno....Im just happy being BLACK!!!!!!!wit a big black ----!

>yeah, but prostitution is the oldest
>profession...

How about farmer, priest, warrior, miner, craftsman, merchant

---------------------
Thursday, June 17th
Dujeous @ Bowery Ballroom
6 Delancey Street (at Bowery)
w/Addison Groove Project &
Gutbucket
10PM~$13
DUJEOUS debut LP "CITY
LIMITS" INSTOSNOW.
Buy my shit.

...keep in mind we're talking about a profession.

>How about farmer,

Nope. Prostitution goes back before people sold food that they grow to others..

>warrior

Not a profession. Just a way of life (i.e. prostitution is older than mercenaries).

>miner,

No way.

>craftsman,

Prostitution is older than artisanship.

>merchant

Ditto.

>priest

This is the only one that comes close.

Alek
________________________________
"Say some shit that suprise me...
My face don't change."

____________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What? What?

Where'd u get your info from?

What about the preponderance of "less-modern" societies that have these professions but don't (or didn't) have documented cases of prostitution? Iroquois, Cherokee, Zulus, etc.

---------------------
Thursday, June 17th
Dujeous @ Bowery Ballroom
6 Delancey Street (at Bowery)
w/Addison Groove Project &
Gutbucket
10PM~$13
DUJEOUS debut LP "CITY
LIMITS" INSTOSNOW.
Buy my shit.

>Where'd u get your info from?

From my vast wealth of knowledge. No, just from studying ancient civilizations last year and in high school.

>What about the preponderance of "less-modern"
>societies that have these professions
>but don't (or didn't) have
>documented cases of prostitution? Iroquois,
>Cherokee, Zulus, etc.

Well, the idea of a "profession" didn't come along until after the agricultural revolution and the division of labor. Before that, being a farmer, warrior, etc. was just how you survived.

As far back as we've got records (i.e. Sumeria, etc.) there was prostitution of some sort.

In "less modern" societies, much of that division of labor hasn't even occured (i.e. many of them aren't using currency).

Alek

________________________________
"Say some shit that suprise me...
My face don't change."

____________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What? What?

>>Where'd u get your info from?
>
>From my vast wealth of knowledge.
> No, just from studying
>ancient civilizations last year and
>in high school.

WHen I said "how do you know," I was asking for proof that prostitution existed before any of these professions, not where you learned this assumption from.


>
>Well, the idea of a "profession"
>didn't come along until after
>the agricultural revolution and the
>division of labor. Before
>that, being a farmer, warrior,
>etc. was just how you
>survived.

How were there farmers before the agricultural revolution? pro·fes·sion (pr-fshn)

1. An occupation requiring considerable training and specialized study

In my opinion, farmer can fit into that definiteion even better than prostitution can. And how could prostitution predate every other profession? For there to be enough surplus to support prostituion there had to be some sort of division of labor with different professions already present.

>
>As far back as we've got
>records (i.e. Sumeria, etc.) there
>was prostitution of some sort.
>

Who do you think took these records? Professional scribes. Thus it could be argued that scribes predated prostitutes. SImilarly, just like prostitutes are ementioned in our earliest records, so are priests, farmers, bureaucrats, merchants, etc. Thus how could someone really prove that prostitution was the first profession?
They can't. It is just an assumption, applying the blueprint of today's depraved society on to totally different societies and calling it "human nature."

---------------------
Thursday, June 17th
Dujeous @ Bowery Ballroom
6 Delancey Street (at Bowery)
w/Addison Groove Project &
Gutbucket
10PM~$13
DUJEOUS debut LP "CITY
LIMITS" INSTOSNOW.
Buy my shit.

Your subject line was funnier and your argument is sound.
I give up.

I guess it's just founded on the assumption that as soon as men have money, the first thing they'd buy is sex.

Alek


________________________________
"Say some shit that suprise me...
My face don't change."

____________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What? What?

I've never seen that happen on the Activist Board

>
>I guess it's just founded on
>the assumption that as soon
>as men have money, the
>first thing they'd buy is
>sex.

Assumptions like these come from our own experiences, where 1 out of 2 marriages fail and everyone screwing each other

---------------------
Thursday, June 17th
Dujeous @ Bowery Ballroom
6 Delancey Street (at Bowery)
w/Addison Groove Project &
Gutbucket
10PM~$13
DUJEOUS debut LP "CITY
LIMITS" INSTOSNOW.
Buy my shit.

>I've never seen that happen on
>the Activist Board

Well, we talk alot about learning from each other. What can I say? Maybe most people would rather not admit it when they haven't thought something through. I honestly don't know enough about the topic to make my claim, so I'm withdrawing it (we did raise some mildly interesting points, though -- so it must be worth sticking it out at least a little).

Alek


________________________________
"Say some shit that suprise me...
My face don't change."

____________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What? What?

Hotep

"Well, we talk alot about learning from each other".

Yep.

"Maybe most people would rather not admit it when they haven't thought something through."

Yep... BUT THAT NNNEEEEEEEEVVVVVVVVEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRR HAPPENS TO ME!
}>

*looking around so he won't be struck lightning*


FLASH!!!

*moved just in time*


quick feet once again saved a big Ego.



PEace
Solarus

"If it's not about NATIONBUILDING, it's not about ANYTHING."- Dr. John Henrik Clarke

"We are not the victims! We are just fighting forces that we cannot see!"-2001 Sankofa Conference

"You don't have the RIGHT to have free time from your children."-Kwame Agyei Akoto

"It is the worst feeling to hear the call of the drum and not be able to respond."-Solarus

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

________________________________
"Say some shit that suprise me...
My face don't change."

____________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What? What?

I had a much more thought out reponse but for some reason only half of it got sent, I hope I didn't sound too flippant


Respect

---------------------
Thursday, June 17th
Dujeous @ Bowery Ballroom
6 Delancey Street (at Bowery)
w/Addison Groove Project &
Gutbucket
10PM~$13
DUJEOUS debut LP "CITY
LIMITS" INSTOSNOW.
Buy my shit.

I never looked at this statement quite like this before but have said it many times. Thanks. Since reading it also, I have witness similar examples throughout my busy day. It is interesting to see how people use EVERYBODY or ALL PEOPLE, so loosely.

When you said this-

Here's an example: the statement "Prostitution is the oldest profession" is an European asssertion, one made without even observing ALL cultures, just self. After obseving self and coming up with statements like "human nature" and "everybody does it", western (european) culture goes on to apply its template onto others.

something stevelove posted in "human nature"

>>Human nature is contrary to the greater good of the rest of nature.

obviously describing observations of one's own culture and applying it to others. this was too simple to identify, moving on...

>>Whether you are vegan, or a person that runs to the doctor for antibiotics every month what is the common goal??? A longer life.

A LONGER LIFE, no try a better life, at least afrikans, quality over quantity

>>What about us? If I were to fall and crack my head open on the street at least a dozen people would come to my aid and someone would call 911. As cold as the world is it would repulse us to leave me to die from bleeding on the street.

WE ARE THE WORLDISM, look at some tapes of the south during the sixties.

>>and is human nature have the best interests of nature in mind?

depends on which grouup you're talking about, grouping everyone together is a mistake though.

(((((PEACE)))))

"You're comparing apples and oranges, my friend. Oversimplification is not the way to "win" an argument. I'm glad you're convinced that what you're doing is right. Are they giving out prizes to the people who bring in the most converts this week?" janey (my new heroine) to abduhu. not a diss, just a clear glimpse of the truth.

"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

Watch...

peace...

https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

made second page in record time

"You're comparing apples and oranges, my friend. Oversimplification is not the way to "win" an argument. I'm glad you're convinced that what you're doing is right. Are they giving out prizes to the people who bring in the most converts this week?" janey (my new heroine) to abduhu. not a diss, just a clear glimpse of the truth.

"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

Noted n/m

Holistic/internal (self-knowledge) vs Empiricism/External

EXAMPLES: western science/medicine/religion

here we can see that the thing to be obtained is external, wheter it be knowledge of self/spirit/or healing source. i.e. salvation comes from god (distinguished as non-self and thus external). if "i am not god, then god is not me". afrikan thought has the individual(abstract idea not found by myself in afrikan culture by the way) inextrcably bound to the divine. there is no separation.

as far as medicine: because the human body and its mechanics are still a mystery to western science, it looks to compile data based on empirical information about the body then apply it to all humans. example: we all remembering the theories of how when one touches a stove our minds don't have to "think" of moving away from heat, it is a natural human reaction/instinctive reflex. i guess that buddhist who set himself on fire and sat in meditation was an alien (mind over matter/power of mind/spirit is unrecognized as acceptable within the western tradition). western science is continually baffled by exceptions to its absolute rules. according to some doctors, vegans or raw foodists are the living dead.

PEACE

"You're comparing apples and oranges, my friend. Oversimplification is not the way to "win" an argument. I'm glad you're convinced that what you're doing is right. Are they giving out prizes to the people who bring in the most converts this week?" janey (my new heroine) to abduhu. not a diss, just a clear glimpse of the truth.

"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

Good Stuff
>Cultural Focus:
>
>Culture optimal For Each specific Group
>vs One's own culture is
>optimal for every other group
>
>
>Psychological Model :
>
>Holistic/internal (self-knowledge) vs Empiricism/External
>

I especially feel you on these points... though I think all are valid. One of the post poignant ones is the Natural order vs. Natural chaos. Much of the "civilized" world today sees the need to impose order on the universe as if it didn't already exist.

The flipside of the same coin is the view of Isaac Newton that the unviverse behaves predictably and humans can use those rules to control it.... (the Empiricism/External model you highlighted). This takes the magic out of life and, I believe makes it very unfulfilling. How can, what you call the "European Worldview," (I'm not convinced it's solely european but nevertheless).... how can it re-learn self-knowledge. How can it re-learn respect/value of cultural diversity?

Will it happen when our excesses create famin and we get hungry enough to change?

Ph.D.

Philosophical Orientation:
Spiritualism vs Materialism

for the westerner the earth/land is a material. original peoples viewed it as a lifeform/living/breathing entity. because of the western view towards the land and it's resources we will have:

>>excesses (that) create famin

and

>>and (only when) we get hungry enough to change

will any change begin. remember these people move from place to place, exploiting resources until their gone, then move somewhere else. remember the agent's speech in the matrix relating "humans" to a virus, never reaching that equilibrium with the environment? although he universalized the concept by saying humans, it was western culture that gave that idea. you see how easily they include everyone in on their faults. UNIVERSALISM at its best!

>>how can it re-learn self-knowledge. How can it re-learn respect/value of cultural diversity?

some say it can't, that's its cultural core (asili) in relearning it changes, in changing, TOTAL changing, it no longer exists as we know it, i.e death

PEACE

"You're comparing apples and oranges, my friend. Oversimplification is not the way to "win" an argument. I'm glad you're convinced that what you're doing is right. Are they giving out prizes to the people who bring in the most converts this week?" janey (my new heroine) to abduhu. not a diss, just a clear glimpse of the truth.

"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

>remember the agent's speech in
>the matrix relating "humans" to
>a virus, never reaching that
>equilibrium with the environment? although
>he universalized the concept by
>saying humans, it was western
>culture that gave that idea.
>you see how easily they
>include everyone in on their
>faults. UNIVERSALISM at its best!


I remember it well. And I remember thinking just that "It's not all humans, just the Takers."

But remember that that's part of what being a Taker means, thinking Universally. You see much of civilization today doesn't remember that life was ever any different. Despite paleantology, despite factual evidence of living breathing aboriginals... 59% of americans believe that the earth was created, in it's present form sometime in the last 10,000. They also believe that man was created separately from the earth and is destined to subdue her (Genesis).

It's no surprise then that they remain so universal.

>>>how can it re-learn self-knowledge. How can it re-learn respect/value of cultural diversity?
>
>some say it can't, that's its
>cultural core (asili) in relearning
>it changes, in changing, TOTAL
>changing, it no longer exists
>as we know it, i.e
>death

Ahah! Cultural death as opposed to actual human death... you don't know how many times I've tried to explain this to people who say the Native American is still alive on a reservation... "BALONEY!" I say. He died when he lost his culture and his way of life.

But the individuals that make up the culture... can they re-learn. I mean if they could forget that they belong to this planet why can't they re-learn?


Ph.D.

>will any change begin. remember these
>people move from place to
>place, exploiting resources until their
>gone, then move somewhere else.
>remember the agent's speech in
>the matrix relating "humans" to
>a virus, never reaching that
>equilibrium with the environment? although
>he universalized the concept by
>saying humans, it was western
>culture that gave that idea.
>you see how easily they
>include everyone in on their
>faults. UNIVERSALISM at its best!

Seriously, I'm really digging this entire post.

But this paragraph really hit me - you're right, western civilization universalizes everything. But I've never noticed that shit before...

Damn... Way to shake a person up... thanks

-thebigfunk
"And you may ask yourself... what is that beautiful house?
And you may ask yourself... where does that highway go?
And you may ask yourself... Am I right? Am I wrong?
And you may ask yourself... MY GOD! WHAT HAVE I DONE!?!" - "Once In A Lifetime" - Talking Heads

"Trouble in transit/got through the roadblock/we blended with the crowd
We got computer/we're tapping phone lines/I know that ain't allowed
We dress like students/we dress like housewives/or in a suit and a tie
I changed my hairstyle/so many times now/I don't know what I look like!
You make me shiver/I feel so tender/we make a pretty good team
Don't get exhausted/I'll do some driving/you ought to get some sleep
Get you instructions/follow directions/then you should change your address
Maybe tomorrow/Maybe the next day/Whatever you think is best
Burned all my notebooks/What good are notebooks?/They won't help me survive...
My chest is aching/Burns like a furnace/The burning keeps me alive..." - "Life During Wartime" - Talking Heads

-thebigfunk

~ i could still snort you under the table ~

Western culture defines natural as:

nat·u·ral (nchr-l, nchrl)
adj. Abbr. nat.

1) Present in or produced by nature: a natural pearl.
Of, relating to, or concerning nature: a natural environment.
Conforming to the usual or ordinary course of nature: a natural death.

2) Not acquired; inherent: Love of power is natural to some people.

3) Having a particular character by nature: a natural leader. See Synonyms at normal.

4) Biology. Not produced or changed artificially; not conditioned: natural immunity; a natural reflex.

5) Characterized by spontaneity and freedom from artificiality, affectation, or inhibitions. See Synonyms at naive.
Not altered, treated, or disguised: natural coloring; natural produce.

6) Faithfully representing nature or life.
Expected and accepted: “In Willie's mind marriage remained the natural and logical sequence to love” (Duff Cooper).

7) Established by moral certainty or conviction: natural rights.

8) Being in a state regarded as primitive, uncivilized, or unregenerate.

NATURE is defined as:

na·ture (nchr)
n.

1)The material world and its phenomena.

2)The forces and processes that produce and control all the phenomena of the material world: the laws of nature.
The world of living things and the outdoors: the beauties of nature.

3)A primitive state of existence, untouched and uninfluenced by civilization or artificiality: couldn't tolerate city life anymore and went back to nature.

4)Theology. Humankind's natural state as distinguished from the state of grace.

5)A kind or sort: confidences of a personal nature. See Synonyms at type.

6)The essential characteristics and qualities of a person or thing: “She was only strong and sweet and in her nature when she was really deep in trouble” (Gertrude Stein).

7)The fundamental character or disposition of a person; temperament: “Strange natures made a brotherhood of ill” (Percy Bysshe Shelley).

8)The natural or real aspect of a person, place, or thing. See Synonyms at disposition.

PEACE to be continued...marinate on the definitions

"You're comparing apples and oranges, my friend. Oversimplification is not the way to "win" an argument. I'm glad you're convinced that what you're doing is right. Are they giving out prizes to the people who bring in the most converts this week?" janey (my new heroine) to abduhu. not a diss, just a clear glimpse of the truth.

"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

>>1)The material world and its phenomena.

notice non-material world excluded, hence spirit

>>2)The forces and processes that produce and control all the phenomena of the material world

and from this we can derive that if man sees himself able to control the material world then his actions must be natural. whether it be ideology/culture/intellectual thrusts, ANYTHING that man can do is natural. period. not only does it give justification to the future atrocities that the western man may commit, but under th guise of being natural, he has succeeded in convinceing others(original peoples) to follow his way. SEE natural imitations post. just take a look at modern japan. peace

On point.

I've just started taking an intro course to Anthropology and almost all of the examples you gave are discussed in my text.

I'd be interested in your view on Anthropology. A western science that sometimes suceeds in contributing to a better understanding of other cultures, and sometimes (in the wrong hands/minds) can be very ethnocentric.

BTW, have you ever read Piot's book: Village Modernity In West Africa? I'd recomend it to anyone interested in finding out more about that region and of the West's preception/relationship with Africa.

Just thought I'd throw that in there . . .

Marinera: It's a sauce, not a chick's name, dig?

Giving you true calcio since 1986

AIM: Marinera81
MAIL: jonah_b27@hotmail.com

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that western culture originated this discipline...

i wonder why they would be looking in the past at different cultures? hmmmmm...

but from my analysis anthropology is a descent discipline, i just have problems with past members of the science and tehir views particularly of kemet. it makes me haev to work that much harder to get to the answers i have questions for.

(((((PEACE)))))

"You're comparing apples and oranges, my friend. Oversimplification is not the way to "win" an argument. I'm glad you're convinced that what you're doing is right. Are they giving out prizes to the people who bring in the most converts this week?" --quoted by janey(my new heroine)to abduhu. *a clear glimpse of the truth*

"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

There are many cases of anthropologists misunderstanding their own ethnological data.

For example, from that book I mentioned: Evans-Pritchard wrote about the Kabre of northern Togo (who are a minority that control the government) as if they were a "pure tribal society" He failed to take a holistic approach & examine their history. As Piot points out, the Kabre didn't exist before the 18th C. when they moved into the region as a result of the slave trade. Now if people in Togo find out that the ruling ethnic group isn't even native to the country . . . damn. That's why people are saying Togo could "be another Rwanda"

Just thought I'd throw that in there . . .

Marinera: It's a sauce, not a chick's name, dig?

Giving you true calcio since 1986

AIM: Marinera81
MAIL: jonah_b27@hotmail.com

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1.This is a european run world.
+
2. This world is fucked up.
=
The european view is fucked up.

This is simple math folks!

Soulution: Think and Do the opposite of what european say us people of color should do. Take their messages to you in their culture and reverse them to find the right messages for you. If they tell you its evil, then its all good to you. If they tell you to think this way think the other way. If they tell you to go left then go right. The people that oppress you can never redeem you through their education. That is why we remain trapped today cuz we try and figure out soulutions based on how our polar opposites, the europeans, think. We tried their way for over 400 years I think its about time for a change what do ya'll think?!?!

HTP,
ASR

>>We tried their way for over 400 years I think its about time for a change what do ya'll think?!?!

i just think it's time to do BETTER, find solutions, do what is right vs. making excuses for why we do wrong.


>>Think and Do the opposite of what european say us people of color should do

the opposite of these people(walking destruction) is BALANCE. balance can manifest in many different ways and remain in harmony, i.e. maintain balance. destrucetion is destruction.




(((((PEACE)))))

Time's up for giving people "breaks." Either come correct or don't come at all. The time for "trying" is up, either DO or keep your mouth shut. Nobody wants to hear about "attempts". Actions and successes speak for themselves. Solarus & Myself

Think and Do the opposite of what european say us people of color should do.

Is this good? Just because you act in another way as someone does not make your actions right. This seems kind of reactionary to me.

Of Blatant universalism.

In response to if Jesus had been portrayed as Black all of these years.

"black people would have the superiority complex, and white people would be arguing that the representation of him being black was incorrect, and that it messed up the culture. this is human nature, not black or white nature."


Why would this be the case? It is OBVIOUS that Jesus is not "white." Therefore a portrayal as being "black" would have obviously been more accurate. The current debate focuses on the obvious lie that is being perpetuated and how it neatly and adequately promotes white supremacy.

Thus why would a statement like this be made? Easy. "Universalism."


"no matter who it happened to, society would still be messed up, people would still feel cheated by it, and it still wouldn't be a happy place."

Why is such a broad generalization made? The circumstances leading to "racism" today are DEEPLY entrenched in a history that could not have occurred in the same manner if the Afrakan and European legacy were reversed. Again "universalism" is the answer to the question.

Again as stated before, "universalism" fits here:

Culture optimal For Each specific Group vs One's own culture is optimal for every other group

&

Cultural Differences In Psychological Functioning vs Western Psychological Functioning as Standard


Peace
Solarice

"If it's not about NATIONBUILDING, it's not about ANYTHING."- Dr. John Henrik Clarke

"We are not the victims! We are just fighting forces that we cannot see!"
"You don't have the RIGHT to have free time from your children."- 2001 Sankofa Conference

"It is the worst feeling to hear the call of the drum and not be able to respond."-Solarus

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

Hotep

One of the reasons why I use the term "Western" more often than "European" is to INCLUDE Arabs and other "Middle-Eastern" groups. Historically Indo-Europeans stemmed from the Northern areas in the convergent area of Europe and Asia, hence the use of Eurasian. The "Aryans" that invaded India were one in the same as these Indo-Europeans and so were the LATER "Persians" as the earliest inhabitants of the "Middle-East" were Afrakan. Later on we find the emergence of a nomadic/pastoral people now designated as "Arabs." Though there was misgenation between Afrakans and Ind0-European groups, one can see that the Arabs were clearly more similar CULTURALLY to their Indo-European predecessors. The fact that they CONTINUED the legacy of the Judeo-Christian tradition through the revelation of Allah and Islam is significant in understanding that they represented, yet another group of Westerners. Although they are different on multiple levels, on the fundamental level of conceptualizing the universe they are inherently "Western."

*My comments on Islam within this paradigm are based on my general knowledge of Islam, comments made by Muslims (particularly the okayummah), deeper readings into the history and practices of Afraka and the "middle East." Please bring in Quranic references to correct any misunderstanding that you may see)


Afrakan vs. EURASIAN

Basic Assumptions/Cosmological view:

Natural Order vs Natural Chaos

-This includes the concept of man's inherent "sinfulness."

Complementarity vs Opposing Opposites

-The strict division between LIGHT/DARK can be seen in Persian tradition such as Mithraism and Zoroastarianism. Also its presence found in the Islam through the designation of Allah as ultimate good and Shaytan as ultimate evil.


Philosophical Orientation:

Spiritualism vs Materialism

-Allah is the CREATOR separate from HIS creations.


Collectivism vs.Individualism

-Islam is largely collective in its orientation.


Cultural Focus:

Culture optimal For Each specific Group vs One's own culture is optimal for every other group

-ISlam is the ONLY (ALLAH'S) truth and must be spread across the world, across cultures.

Psychological Model:

Cultural Context of Behavior vs Individual Behavior
-From a cultural perspective one is supposed to act within the confines of Allah's word, thus behavior is seen a "cultural" in a sense, however (see next one)

Cultural Differences In Psychological Functioning vs Western Psychological Functioning as Standard
- Islam is a religion that "transcends" cultures. Thus "cultures" as viable entities that define one's life, standards and psychological functioning, are negate with the "Islamic" view. Instead of ISlam being seen as an emanation of Arabic culture, IT (or Allah) assert itself as THE WAY of the UNIVERSE and all cultures are subordinate. However in practice, the more one becomes closer to practicing TRUE Islam, one becomes culturally more "Arabic" in orientation.


Holistic/internal (self-knowledge) vs Empiricism/External

-The need for INFALLIBLE SCRIPTURE.



PEace
Solarus

***Words of Wisdom***

"If it's not about NATIONBUILDING, it's not about ANYTHING."- Dr. John Henrik Clarke

"We are not the victims! We are just fighting forces that we cannot see!"-2001 Sankofa Conference

"You don't have the RIGHT to have free time from your children."-Kwame Agyei Akoto

"It is the worst feeling to hear the call of the drum and not be able to respond."-Solarus

On understanding Afrakan thought:
"it's like explaining astrophysics to a whino, the explanation can't be done like that. when people try to simplify it, they ask the other person to tailor the answers their cultural context. and trying to cater afrikan ideals to european understanding is a REAL sin."-utamaroho

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

>Hotep
>
>One of the reasons why I
>use the term "Western" more
>often than "European" is to
>INCLUDE Arabs and other "Middle-Eastern"
>groups. Historically Indo-Europeans stemmed from
>the Northern areas in the
>convergent area of Europe and
>Asia, hence the use of
>Eurasian. The "Aryans" that
>invaded India were one in
>the same as these Indo-Europeans
>and so were the LATER
>"Persians" as the earliest inhabitants
>of the "Middle-East" were Afrakan.
> Later on we find
>the emergence of a nomadic/pastoral
>people now designated as "Arabs."
> Though there was misgenation
>between Afrakans and Ind0-European
>groups, one can see that
>the Arabs were clearly more
>similar CULTURALLY to their Indo-European
>predecessors. The fact that
>they CONTINUED the legacy of
>the Judeo-Christian tradition through the
>revelation of Allah and Islam
>is significant in understanding that
>they represented, yet another group
>of Westerners. Although they are
>different on multiple levels, on
>the fundamental level of conceptualizing
>the universe they are inherently
>"Western."

This makes no sense. Even the level of the weakness of the Muslims at the present time shows you how much the West hates Islam. How much the West hates the ideas Islam holds regarding worship, economics, politics, society, etc. Your argument is easily defeated by what is going on right now, there is not even a need to look into history. But if you really look at history, you will see the same thing. The Crusaders made up lies about the Muslims in Jerusalem and then attempted to invade and succeeded in killing Muslims, raping women and children because they were Westerners and had similar ideas? Ehh.. I don't think so.

>*My comments on Islam within this
>paradigm are based on my
>general knowledge of Islam, comments
>made by Muslims (particularly the
>okayummah), deeper readings into the
>history and practices of Afraka
>and the "middle East."
>Please bring in Quranic references
>to correct any misunderstanding that
>you may see)

You make an entire judgement on a way of life that more than 1 out of every 4 people on this planet follow on GENERAL knowledge? Don't you see ANY problem with that?

I will use the Qur'an for some parts, but I'm not sure if you've even read the Qur'an judging from your comparisons.

>Afrakan vs. EURASIAN
>
>Basic Assumptions/Cosmological view:
>
>Natural Order vs Natural Chaos
>
>-This includes the concept of man's
>inherent "sinfulness."

Your ignorance of Islam begins, but will never end, here. There is no concept of being born with sin in Islam. In fact, it is believed that everyone is born in fitrah (a natural state, inclining towards worship of Allah). Every person is responsible for their own lives, and no ones sins can be put on another persons. This is a reason we deny that Issa (as) or Jesus was sent to die for anyone.

Surah Ar-Rum
30. So set you (O Muhammad saw) your face towards the religion (of pure Islamic Monotheism) Hanif (worship none but Allah Alone). Allah's Fitrah (i.e. Allah's Islamic Monotheism) with which He has created mankind. No change let there be in Khalq-illah (i.e. the religion of Allah - Islamic Monotheism): that is the straight religion, but most of men know not.

** Notice this verse stresses the BALANCE of Islam, by saying it is the straight religion.

>Complementarity vs Opposing Opposites
>
>-The strict division between LIGHT/DARK can
>be seen in Persian tradition
>such as Mithraism and Zoroastarianism.
> Also its presence found
>in the Islam through the
>designation of Allah as ultimate
>good and Shaytan as ultimate
>evil.

Once again... you make a mistake by giving Allah an opponent. Knowing that Allah is without peer or opponent is common knowledge about Islam.

I shouldn't have to provide evidence for this from Al-Qur'an.. this really is common knowledge of Islam.

>Philosophical Orientation:
>
>Spiritualism vs Materialism
>
>-Allah is the CREATOR separate from
>HIS creations.

How does this deny Spiritualism? Things are created by Allah, this is the reality of existence. The Ruh (spirit) is mentioned many times in Al-Qur'an.

>Collectivism vs.Individualism
>
>-Islam is largely collective in its
>orientation.

Wrong. It is both collective and personal.

>Cultural Focus:
>
>Culture optimal For Each specific Group
>vs One's own culture is
>optimal for every other group
>
>
>-ISlam is the ONLY (ALLAH'S) truth
>and must be spread across
>the world, across cultures.

Islam allows freedom of cultural expression. One of the greatest proofs can be seen in something simple as dress and the architectures of masjids all over the world.

>Psychological Model:
>
>Cultural Context of Behavior vs Individual
>Behavior
>-From a cultural perspective one is
>supposed to act within the
>confines of Allah's word, thus
>behavior is seen a "cultural"
>in a sense, however (see
>next one)
>
>Cultural Differences In Psychological Functioning vs
>Western Psychological Functioning as Standard
>
>- Islam is a religion that
>"transcends" cultures. Thus "cultures"
>as viable entities that define
>one's life, standards and psychological
>functioning, are negate with the
>"Islamic" view. Instead of
>ISlam being seen as an
>emanation of Arabic culture, IT
>(or Allah) assert itself as
>THE WAY of the UNIVERSE
>and all cultures are subordinate.
> However in practice, the
>more one becomes closer to
>practicing TRUE Islam, one becomes
>culturally more "Arabic" in orientation.

How does one become more "Arabic" ? The practices of Muslims even in Arabia do not match that of pre-Islamic Arabia.

>Holistic/internal (self-knowledge) vs Empiricism/External
>
>-The need for INFALLIBLE SCRIPTURE.

Al-Qur'an is a guidance and is infallible, but Allah has given man natural instincts to assist in seeing the signs of Him. If you actually read the Qur'an, you will notice how often Allah commands man to look and study nature and the universe to realize that within is one of the greatest signs.


You try to make Islam either one or the other, but it is not this. It is both of the two, it is balanced. This is why it is called the Straight and Middle Path because it doesn't fall into the excess on either end in any aspect.

in walkin destruction, but now it has to be called out...

i can understand the unrighteous being against the righteous, that's cool, but you make it out like EVERYTHING and EVERYBODY is against islam much like christians think that everything unrghteous is specifically against them (we all know the type).

Melrose place has steamy sex scenes, "UNCHRISTIAN!" they yell.

Abortion is allowed in a state, "anti-christian!"

Kool-aid comes out with "passion"-fruit flavor, "anti-christian!"

GET THE FUCK OUTTA HERE WITH THAT SHIT!

(((((SCENE FROM AMISTAD)))))

Baldwin(white man): "I said it! I said it! But I shouldn't have. Now what I should have said..."

Translator: "I can't translate that. I can't translate SHOULD."

Roger Baldwin: "You mean there's no word in Mende for SHOULD?"

Translator: "No, either you do something or you don't don't do it."

Roger Baldwin: "What I said to you before the judgment is ALMOST how it works, ALMOST..."

Cinqué (Sengbe): "What kind of place is this?!? Where you almost mean what you say?!? Where laws almost work?!? How can you live like this?!?"

(((((PEACE)))))

culture
religion
"Eurocentricity" vs Western Conceptual system
Western Conceptual system
Afrakan Conceptual system
spiritualism
materialism

need I continue?

Before you step into the realm, go read up on these concepts. THEN we can work on destroying the Westernized versions of these concepts that you just learn. But if you don't start out there, we can't even begin to talk because you will just rely on dogma and HIS will.

PEace
Solarus

***Words of Wisdom***

"If it's not about NATIONBUILDING, it's not about ANYTHING."- Dr. John Henrik Clarke

"We are not the victims! We are just fighting forces that we cannot see!"-2001 Sankofa Conference

"You don't have the RIGHT to have free time from your children."-Kwame Agyei Akoto

"It is the worst feeling to hear the call of the drum and not be able to respond."-Solarus

On understanding Afrakan thought:
"it's like explaining astrophysics to a whino, the explanation can't be done like that. when people try to simplify it, they ask the other person to tailor the answers their cultural context. and trying to cater afrikan ideals to european understanding is a REAL sin."-utamaroho

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

abduhu please respond to this and enlighten me.

Yusuf' BRITISH nature (that has been superimposed with Islam) is coming out and I'd really don't want to destroy his pitiful rantings.


PEace
Solarus

***Words of Wisdom***

"If it's not about NATIONBUILDING, it's not about ANYTHING."- Dr. John Henrik Clarke

"We are not the victims! We are just fighting forces that we cannot see!"-2001 Sankofa Conference

"You don't have the RIGHT to have free time from your children."-Kwame Agyei Akoto

"It is the worst feeling to hear the call of the drum and not be able to respond."-Solarus

On understanding Afrakan thought:
"it's like explaining astrophysics to a whino, the explanation can't be done like that. when people try to simplify it, they ask the other person to tailor the answers their cultural context. and trying to cater afrikan ideals to european understanding is a REAL sin."-utamaroho

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

hahahahahahaha

my "BRITISH" nature.. my british nature is that my father and his family is from Britain and I lived there for a few months when I was 4 years old. That's my British nature, unless you are saying that it is a genetic thing, I have no "British nature." One line about me saying my father and his family is from Britain and suddenly you have my entire mind mapped out.. don't be an idiot.

It seems you haven't even read the Qur'an by not knowing simple concepts in Islam that a Muslim child could tell you, like comparing Shaytan with Allah and saying Muslims believe in the idea that they are born with sin.

to solarus: let it go man, let it go...

heed urbgriot's wisdom and quit while you're ahead. matter of fact, i'll make it worth your while; if you can force yourself to ignore that post (and any others that might follow) for just today, i'll treat you and the queen to Harmony when i get up there. good luck!

(((((SCENE FROM AMISTAD)))))

Baldwin(white man): "I said it! I said it! But I shouldn't have. Now what I should have said..."

Translator: "I can't translate that. I can't translate SHOULD."

Roger Baldwin: "You mean there's no word in Mende for SHOULD?"

Translator: "No, either you do something or you don't don't do it."

Roger Baldwin: "What I said to you before the judgment is ALMOST how it works, ALMOST..."

Cinqué (Sengbe): "What kind of place is this?!? Where you almost mean what you say?!? Where laws almost work?!? How can you live like this?!?"

(((((PEACE)))))

break it down.
its tooo general.
we need "specific" examples to build on.

how is islam__________?

in other words, get paradigmatic with your paradigm.


Allah says in the 21st Surah, Al Anbiya' (The Prophets):
51. We bestowed aforetime on Abraham his rectitude of conduct, and well were We acquainted with him.
52. Behold! he said to his father and his people, "What are these images, to which ye are (so assiduously) devoted?"
53. They said, "We found our fathers worshipping them."
54. He said, "Indeed ye have been in manifest error - ye and your fathers."
55. They said, "Have you brought us the Truth, or are you one of those who jest?"
56. He said, "Nay, your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, He Who created them (from nothing): and I am a witness to this (Truth).
57. "And by Allah, I have a plan for your idols - after ye go away and turn your backs"..
58. So he broke them to pieces, (all) but the biggest of them, that they might turn (and address themselves) to it.
59. They said, "Who has done this to our gods? He must indeed be some man of impiety!"
60. They said, "We heard a youth talk of them: He is called Abraham."
61. They said, "Then bring him before the eyes of the people, that they may bear witness."
62. They said, "Art thou the one that did this with our gods, O Abraham?"
63. He said: "Nay, this was done by - this is their biggest one! ask them, if they can speak intelligently!"
64. So they turned to themselves and said, "Surely ye are the ones in the wrong!"
65. Then were they confounded with shame: (they said), "Thou knowest full well that these (idols) do not speak!"
66. (Abraham) said, "Do ye then worship, besides Allah, things that can neither be of any good to you nor do you harm?
67. "Fie upon you, and upon the things that ye worship besides Allah. Have ye no sense?"....

subhakallahumma wabihamdika ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa attuubu ilaika

>>Culture optimal For Each specific Group vs One's own culture is optimal for every other group

muslims (as we say in that article about the christians witnessing on the streets to muslims) will teach their ideology when needed, or like you expose others to their culture/ideology based on law from the infallible scripture.

never have i seen zen monks/ taosist/ or afrikan teachers just going out and "teaching all nations" about their way in the same way. its more along the lines of "figure it out for yourslef" or "if you want to learn, come, and i'll teach" BUT NEVER "everybody needs/should" learn this way. that's why he said "Culture optimal For Each specific Group". its more personal in its thrust when interacting with others.


>>Holistic/internal (self-knowledge) vs Empiricism/External

-The need for INFALLIBLE SCRIPTURE.

knowing based on one's own understanding instead of using a RIGID ideology (tradition adhered to without question and without ability to adapt)

Do you think that islam is fluid? from what i gather many questions already have answers in the texts and personally that has always been a problem to me, in that if one doesn't have ALL encompassing understanding of ALL texts, then one will submit to ideas one has not come across BASED SOLELY on the adherence to other ideas. example: if i believe the fundamentals and have faith in them, then i will believe any other information i come across in my studies based on the fact that i accept the first teachings.

what happens if the teaching is not applicable with the situation/times?

i know the koran says something of this, but i'd like to hear your thoughts, not allah's. reason being, the mentality of any convert is especially interesting to me. specifically the reasoning they used to adopt something that was once foreign to them.

PEACE

>>>Culture optimal For Each specific Group vs One's own culture is optimal for every other group
>
>muslims (as we say in that
>article about the christians witnessing
>on the streets to muslims)
>will teach their ideology when
>needed, or like you expose
>others to their culture/ideology based
>on law from the infallible
>scripture.


>
>never have i seen zen monks/
>taosist/ or afrikan teachers just
>going out and "teaching all
>nations" about their way in
>the same way. its more
>along the lines of "figure
>it out for yourslef" or
>"if you want to learn,
>come, and i'll teach"

the problem w/the mentioned method (go for self) is:
"their way" is subject to ALL TYPES of interpretataions when they just leave a brother/sister hanging like that.

and then when they do that, and they come to you w/it, they get jumped on. see-my post (prob. deleted, but you remember) where im trying to learn something about "afrakan ways" based on WESTERN THINKING AND METHODOLOGY.

rather, the muslims straight up tell you about islam, and then let you use your own standards to judge it.

the second method (come ill teach), is used by the muslims too.
but sometimes, we tell before we are asked. and that is to relieve the burden (not in a negative sense) that Allah places on us-propagate and then go about your business, but do not impose islam on anyone.
2:256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

>
>
>>>Holistic/internal (self-knowledge) vs Empiricism/External
>
>-The need for INFALLIBLE SCRIPTURE.
>
>knowing based on one's own understanding
>instead of using a RIGID
>ideology (tradition adhered to without
>question and without ability to
>adapt)

see above to the first method used by_________


>Do you think that islam is
>fluid? from what i gather
>many questions already have answers
>in the texts.

well in fact they dont. new situations arise everyday that have to dealt w/. but they have to be saught out in a certain manner. and that manner is: check w/ Allah first, then the traditions of muhammad, then the companions, then the scholars of islam. and they are many more ways to overcome a situation, but it has to be dealt w/ within the framework of islam.
if any muslims can put this in example form, please do. my mind is at a blank.


and personally
>that has always been a
>problem to me, in that
>if one doesn't have ALL
>encompassing understanding of ALL texts,
>then one will submit to
>ideas one has not come
>across BASED SOLELY on the
>adherence to other ideas. example:
>if i believe the fundamentals
>and have faith in them,
>then i will believe any
>other information i come across
>in my studies based on
>the fact that i accept
>the first teachings.

i think you left some "no's and not's" out in this one.
or either i just didnt understand. try me again, please.
>
>what happens if the teaching is
>not applicable with the situation/times?
>i know the koran says something
>of this,

the teaching is ALWAYS applicable. hasnt it been for the last 1400 years? im not doing a whole lot diff than the first practitioners of islam in its final form.

but i'd like
>to hear your thoughts, not
>allah's. reason being, the mentality
>of any convert is especially
>interesting to me. specifically the
>reasoning they used to adopt
>something that was once foreign
>to them.

not trying to be funny or smart, but look within YOURSELF at why you adopted something that was "inherent" but "once foreign" to YOU.

if you are referring specifically to me and islam, well.
the reasoning is the same as it was when you asked the last time: the status quo was not working, so lets get something better. who knows, if i lived somewhere like atl where there is alot of cultural diversity, i mighta been down w/ you and your cause and way of life.
but i was in good ol columbus w/ hardly no cultural diversity (outward display anyway) for me to be exposed to.
Allah guided me to islam, b/c i wanted to BE GUIDED. i did enough of guiding myself, so it was time to let myself be free from self motivated actions, and do something for the one whom i owe evreything to.
so i did, and HE tripled my blessings!

alhamdulillahi rabb al 'aalameen!!!

if this (why i converted) is not good enough, get specific w/ me, and i will try, insha'allah to explain specifically.

subhakallahumma wabihamdika ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa attuubu ilaika

>>rather, the muslims straight up tell you about islam, and then let you use your own standards to judge it.

i guess that's the fundamental problem then, islam doesn't meet my standards. once you said "don't judge islamby muslims, judge muslims by islam." imagine what would happen if americans used a similar argument. "don't judge americans by your standards, judge americans by their own standards" when on does this (judge muslims by islam) a muslim can get away with anything!

much lilke a christian can easily convince him/herself of the actions they've comited throughout history. a religion based on "go ye therefore and teach all nations baptizing(imperialization) them in the name of the father, son, and holy spirit" will more likely allow for "imposing" than one that is more personal and intrinsic. the crusades speak of this, you saw how they were then...

to me the same hing goes for some ideas within islam. i.e.

>>and that is to relieve the burden (not in a negative sense) that Allah places on us-propagate...

Allah places burdens on you?!? nevermind

>>the teaching is ALWAYS applicable. hasnt it been for the last 1400 years? im not doing a whole lot diff than the first practitioners of islam in its final form.

RIGID, non-fluid compare to TAOISM which has remarkable track record...

>>but look within YOURSELF at why you adopted something that was "inherent" but "once foreign" to YOU.

my thinking is evolutionary and fluid, adaptive and changing...much like he universe itself (of course my own understanding)

but basically, i see why i can't compare islam to self, much like how i cannot compare the american way of life to mine or ask those within it to measure up to something they wouldn't attempt and couldn't accomplish.

>>>rather, the muslims straight up tell you about islam, and then let you use your own standards to judge it.
>
>i guess that's the fundamental problem
>then, islam doesn't meet my
>standards. once you said "don't
>judge islamby muslims, judge muslims
>by islam." imagine what would
>happen if americans used a
>similar argument. "don't judge americans
>by your standards, judge americans
>by their own standards" when
>on does this (judge muslims
>by islam) a muslim can
>get away with anything!

no. one can get CHECKED by his OWN WAY OF LIFE when one does this?
there was a lady that came to the mosque here and was thinking about marrying HER "MUSLIM BOYFRIEND" who she was living with. and she came to us for advice. why?
b/c when she studied islam for herself, she found out aint no such thing as a "MUSLIM BOYFRIEND", and she called him out on it!

>much lilke a christian can easily
>convince him/herself of the actions
>they've comited throughout history. a
>religion based on "go ye
>therefore and teach all nations
>baptizing(imperialization) them in the name
>of the father, son, and
>holy spirit" will more likely
>allow for "imposing" than one
>that is more personal and
>intrinsic. the crusades speak of
>this, you saw how they
>were then...
>
>to me the same hing goes
>for some ideas within islam.
>i.e.

you and i know full well that the culmination of christianity and a "superiority of the skin color" complex lead to the crusades.
and anything in islamic history that slightly resembles that was not based on islam, but on THE IGNORANCE OF ISLAM. and i know you know this too.

>>>and that is to relieve the burden (not in a negative sense) that Allah places on us-propagate...
>
>Allah places burdens on you?!? nevermind
tasks. chores. carried weight. that kind of "burden". and not the WESTERN/EUROPEAN idea of burden.


>>>the teaching is ALWAYS applicable. hasnt it been for the last 1400 years? im not doing a whole lot diff than the first practitioners of islam in its final form.
>
>RIGID, non-fluid compare to TAOISM which
>has remarkable track record...
>
>>>but look within YOURSELF at why you adopted something that was "inherent" but "once foreign" to YOU.
>
>my thinking is evolutionary and fluid,
>adaptive and changing...much like he
>universe itself (of course my
>own understanding)

and what if YOUR knowledge is not evolutionary and fluid?
then what?
how COULD YOU ADAPT?

>but basically, i see why i
>can't compare islam to self,
>much like how i cannot
>compare the american way of
>life to mine or ask
>those within it to measure
>up to something they wouldn't
>attempt and couldn't accomplish.

nor would i expect afrakan or western ways to live up to my standards. if they would or could, theyd be islamic ways.

subhakallahumma wabihamdika ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa attuubu ilaika

I entitle this "The Straw"

>>nor would i expect afrakan or western ways to live up to my standards. if they would or could, theyd be islamic ways.


(((((PEACE)))))

to urbgriot: i should've listened, i should've listened.

Allah says in the 21st Surah, Al Anbiya' (The Prophets):
51. We bestowed aforetime on Abraham his rectitude of conduct, and well were We acquainted with him.
52. Behold! he said to his father and his people, "What are these images, to which ye are (so assiduously) devoted?"
53. They said, "We found our fathers worshipping them."
54. He said, "Indeed ye have been in manifest error - ye and your fathers."
55. They said, "Have you brought us the Truth, or are you one of those who jest?"
56. He said, "Nay, your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, He Who created them (from nothing): and I am a witness to this (Truth).
57. "And by Allah, I have a plan for your idols - after ye go away and turn your backs"..
58. So he broke them to pieces, (all) but the biggest of them, that they might turn (and address themselves) to it.
59. They said, "Who has done this to our gods? He must indeed be some man of impiety!"
60. They said, "We heard a youth talk of them: He is called Abraham."
61. They said, "Then bring him before the eyes of the people, that they may bear witness."
62. They said, "Art thou the one that did this with our gods, O Abraham?"
63. He said: "Nay, this was done by - this is their biggest one! ask them, if they can speak intelligently!"
64. So they turned to themselves and said, "Surely ye are the ones in the wrong!"
65. Then were they confounded with shame: (they said), "Thou knowest full well that these (idols) do not speak!"
66. (Abraham) said, "Do ye then worship, besides Allah, things that can neither be of any good to you nor do you harm?
67. "Fie upon you, and upon the things that ye worship besides Allah. Have ye no sense?"....

subhakallahumma wabihamdika ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa attuubu ilaika

Allah says in the 21st Surah, Al Anbiya' (The Prophets):
51. We bestowed aforetime on Abraham his rectitude of conduct, and well were We acquainted with him.
52. Behold! he said to his father and his people, "What are these images, to which ye are (so assiduously) devoted?"
53. They said, "We found our fathers worshipping them."
54. He said, "Indeed ye have been in manifest error - ye and your fathers."
55. They said, "Have you brought us the Truth, or are you one of those who jest?"
56. He said, "Nay, your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, He Who created them (from nothing): and I am a witness to this (Truth).
57. "And by Allah, I have a plan for your idols - after ye go away and turn your backs"..
58. So he broke them to pieces, (all) but the biggest of them, that they might turn (and address themselves) to it.
59. They said, "Who has done this to our gods? He must indeed be some man of impiety!"
60. They said, "We heard a youth talk of them: He is called Abraham."
61. They said, "Then bring him before the eyes of the people, that they may bear witness."
62. They said, "Art thou the one that did this with our gods, O Abraham?"
63. He said: "Nay, this was done by - this is their biggest one! ask them, if they can speak intelligently!"
64. So they turned to themselves and said, "Surely ye are the ones in the wrong!"
65. Then were they confounded with shame: (they said), "Thou knowest full well that these (idols) do not speak!"
66. (Abraham) said, "Do ye then worship, besides Allah, things that can neither be of any good to you nor do you harm?
67. "Fie upon you, and upon the things that ye worship besides Allah. Have ye no sense?"....

subhakallahumma wabihamdika ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa attuubu ilaika

Hotep

After reviewing what I posted and contemplating it, it was not the BEST thing to do. What I mean is that to break Islam down by those characteristics is not 100% accurate because ISLAM (as a religious teaching) doesn't predicate a CONCEPTUAL SYSTEM, instead the conceptual system predicates Islam (every "religion" is an outgrowth of a cultural worldview i.e. conceptual system). The point is that superimposing Islam onto any given conceptual system is changes the outlook of Islam.

WHAT IS THAT YOU SAY????!!!!

This was (is) to be the purpose of the post that I mentioned before "GOD is IMMANENT." It is so much to discuss that I have been "putting it off" as I tend to do at times.

BUT I PROMISE not to make you wait as long as the ipuwer/merneptah question.

I will respond...

soon.

PEace
Solarus

***Words of Wisdom***

"If it's not about NATIONBUILDING, it's not about ANYTHING."- Dr. John Henrik Clarke

"We are not the victims! We are just fighting forces that we cannot see!"-2001 Sankofa Conference

"You don't have the RIGHT to have free time from your children."-Kwame Agyei Akoto

"It is the worst feeling to hear the call of the drum and not be able to respond."-Solarus

On understanding Afrakan thought:
"it's like explaining astrophysics to a whino, the explanation can't be done like that. when people try to simplify it, they ask the other person to tailor the answers their cultural context. and trying to cater afrikan ideals to european understanding is a REAL sin."-utamaroho

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

blow up the s.p.o.t. w/ that one aint ya?
cant wait.

subhakallahumma wabihamdika ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa attuubu ilaika