This is a spinoff from the "Howard Teaching Separatism" thread, not to mention I have been comtemplating writing about this for a while now. Warning, this might be more of a rant than an initial post looking for ideas.

If some of you dont know, because I did take this off my sig, I am a Libertarian. I support Libertarian ideals probably for the same reason most of you support the ones you support - I feel it will help alot more people realize and attain their highest potential, particularly within the black community. I dont support lower taxes because I'm selfish, nor do I support tax cuts for the rich because I'm rich myself (because I sure as hell ain't), or because some of yall think I'm white or an assimilationist.

To understand me is to partially look at my background. I was born and raised in rural North Carolina. I dont consider my family as being broke, yet I didn't get everything I wanted or thought I needed (then again, what kid did? *shrugs*). However, I learned two things real quick, 1. Everyone is not going to be there to help you everytime you need it, and 2. If you want something done right the first time, chances are better if you do it yourself. Even if you do fail at it, which you most surely will at some point in your life, then you have noone to blame but you, and you dont have to ponder "what if?". In other words, I grew up respecting and cherishing independence and freedom, and doing for self. There is no substitute for acquiring knowledge that allows you to reach your highest potential to get the things you want most out of life.

So you see, although it wouldn't solve all our problems within the black community, I believe that idea would help alot of them in today's society. And I can't stand the idea known as elitism.

But there hasn't been the idea for all of the black community, and we are now seeing groups and what not form within the community that threatens to divide by social structure from within just like it does for the rest of society within the US. The Howard thread is just one small example in which I feel (I repeat, I FEEL....hence dont waste time trying to dispute it, at least on this thread.) elitism, which I think started with W.E.B. DuBois's idea of the "Talented Tenth", has strong roots within the black community.

For those of you who dont know of the "Talented Tenth", it was essentially the idea that only 10% of black people had the capability and knowledge to lead and be successful within this society, and that their leadership and success would uplift the rest of the black community. DuBois's idea was that the efforts on civil rights and equality should be focused on them, and from them they shall lead us to the promised land.

There have been many examples of this, whether you're talking about light skinned vs. dark skin, intellectual prowess, what kind of neighborhood you came from, what did your family do, etc. Now of course I'm not saying it's wrong to simply distinguish between yourself and another; that is simply human nature. I simply feel there is a way you go about that however. For example, you can criticize someone for how they act or behave, yet if you're not willing to help them to correct a mistake, or at least lead by example, feeling it is "beneath you" to consort with "those types of people" or to do certain things to help people or even help yourself, then I think that qualifies as an elitist attitude.

You see, I consider myself pretty well informed and intelligent, but I do have some of that "countriness" in me. I have worked in tobacco fields, I have done various types of yard work (still do), I have worked in cucumber boxing plants, corn factories, etc. In other words, I'm not afraid of getting dirty and sweating a little if I have to, and I'm a t-shirt and jeans guy, not flashy. I realize the only difference between me and alot of people is not necessarily that I'm smart, because I feel anyone can attain knowledge if they really want to (short of mental disabilities of course), but because I tend to be optimistic, persistent (aka stubborn), and ambitious about my life. I think the contrary of that is something that needs to be worked upon within the black community.

But I think the "Tenth", by doing miniminal to nothing to help improve the quality of life for the rest of the ones not as ambitious or on their level, indirectly hurt the progress of blacks as a whole. As one Player said on another thread (I forgot who), they are the ones that as soon as they get their fortune and success they leave the neighborhood, and only contribute a bare mininum back at the most just so they can't be deemed sellouts. The ones that do stay only do so because the neighborhood is cheap, and it makes their business/schools stand out from everything else. Don't believe me? Come to Atlanta's West End. Morehouse, Spelman, and Clark Atlanta are all surrounded by tired neighborhoods. Same way with NC A&T in Greensboro. Instead of trying to fix the neighborhoods internally, without allowing these residents to be bought out of their homes by real estate predators looking for cheap land, they allow them to sit there and rot.

Even within a national scheme of things there are many indicators of elitism. Studies on affirmative action programs show that a huge percentage of the programs mostly benefit middle and upper class blacks, not low income blacks. In many cities political power is focused within a good ole boy network of blacks. In fact, the last mayoral race in Atlanta featured two black politicans that were virtually competing against one another based on who was the "blackest". The incumbent, Bill Campbell, won. (Might come down to that same thing in this one.) I personally feel that in order to achieve empowerment within the community, these things have to be broken down and restructured with equal opportunities for all (but NOT through government assistance).

And with that, I ask...

Do you feel there is a problem with elitism within the black community?

Do you think it can be pointed back to the Talented Tenth theory and do you believe in it?

And here's the kicker: Do you think your personal beliefs about what needs to be done to uplift black people runs together or in contrast with elitism. Why or why not.

And believe me, I will be watching....and ready to give a response

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This conversation has a lot to do with our backgrounds, so here is mine:

My parents are both college educated and both have multiple graduate degrees. (My Dad did all of his schooling @ Oxford, BA through Phd). I grew up in fairly affluent surroundings in some of the Whitest Suburbs on earth, I went to a middle school with kids who had never SEEN a Black person in real life before they met me. The High School I graduated from seemed very diverse to me, not because the student body was truly mixed, but because we had 6 of everything and 20 - 25 Black students (out of 1,800 total). Still, to me, it was diverse.

Funny story, my asked me to please date a nice Black girl. I said: "But Mom, I already dated her. The other ones already have boyfriends or are my friend's sisters and Kineisha's Dad hates me"

The point is that I was really isolated from the experiences of other Blacks. The Cosby show seemed more realistic to me then Good Times did. While my parents typically only had Black friends and there were always at least ONE other Black family around for us to Barb-B-Que with, I didn't know many Blacks other then my relatives.

So how does this relate to the talented "tenth"? Well I grew up around with, the Blacks who would call themselves this, or act in an "Elitist" manner. While I was always told about my mom's poverty stricken upbringing (If I have to hear how she had to work a summer job to make $50 to take the Bus to college, while I flew on a plane, I'm gonna scream!) and to be accepting of all people regardless of income level, and not to be "Elitist" I still saw in our own family and definitely in our friends.

-I saw some Blacks who feel that they "escaped" something other Blacks didn't and they're "super bad" because they did. They derive a lot of their self esteem from being wealthier then the average Black and kind of thing of themselves as some sort of "superior negro". They're actually just racist believing the stereotypes that most whites believe about us. I don't know if I want to call it elitism, or self hate.

-I saw other Blacks who were simply snobs, they'd look down their nose at poor people. They acted like poor people were dirty or filthy.

-Other Blacks simply wanted to build "great families" Black Kennedy's if you will. Nothing wrong with that, but it often got out of hand when people dissed other people who were less fortunate, for reasons other then their character.

-Sometimes you have a Black person who simply likes their middle class lifestyle and wouldn't want to be poor, and poor people take that as elitism. I've faced this a lot and it made it hard for me to get along with Black kids who grew up poor in college, stupid isht like my parents sending me money, tuition and cars.

There was this Brotha was I really good friends with after school, the thing went down the drain because of our difering backgrounds. I'm not pointing fingers, but it seems like there is some natural tension between people of different economic backgrounds.

Truth be told, I've been called a snob many times. I came from a snobby family (mostly mama's side) even though my mom's family was dirt poor, they were a little snobby....as my grandmother used to say: "we may be poor, but at least we have class". (I'm going to catch hell for these next comments..oh wait..I don't care) I'm the kind of guy who doesn't want to live in a poor neighboorhood, even if it's not a matter of safety...I'd prefer a nice suburb. I could be saving 50-60% or so on my rent if I had rented an apartment someplace else instead of this townhouse, still would've been in the burbs...but the neighboors looked like (I hate this phrase) well..white trash.....I had no care to hear their country music, see their nasty trucks or to just to be around them.

I don't neccessarily look down on the less fortunate or think of them as inferior, or that I'm somehow superior because I'm not them....but I don't want to live next door either.

I figured it would be dishonest of me if I didn't admit that within the context of this conversation.


-Sometimes it's a lifestyle Vs. lifestyle issue, I've seen this in my own family. Poorer relatives would put up their defenses around my parents as if my parents were "dissing" them simply by being.

When it comes to colleges, I'm not ready to call Howard, Morehouse, et all "Elitist" #1. Isn't it wise to keep the students away from the community for safety's sake, a lot of those kids may not know how to navigate around a Bad Neighboorhood. (I know I didn't, I almost got mugged once) #2. Is it their duty to uplift the neighboorhood? Shouldn't that start with the people who live there.

If you ask me, the "Black Elitist" can come in many forms, it cna be typical snobbery, it can someone who likes their lifestyle too much and rubs others the wrong way, the person may have a genuine need for protection, or they may just be a self hate, or think of themselves as being superior to the general populace Regardless it does cause friction and separation amongst Blacks, although the so called "Elitist" may not always be to blame.

Not all Blacks labeled with the "talented tenth" label or with the "elitist" label or truly so, I think 90% of it is pure snobbery......but there are some who do believe they are a part of a talented sub division of the Black Community. That isht needs to stop.

As for Blacks needing to think Elist to be succeed, that's another story. I look it at this way, it's one thing to want to be one of the "Elite" and now that you got there through luck, hard work and talent.... it's another to revel in it and think that you achieved it because of some inherent superiority and others can't hope to join you because of their intrinsic inferiority.

Blacks should want to be Elite, not Elitists.


As for helping Blacks as a whole, I think they are limits. Considering how little poor Blacks do for the community, I don't neccessarily think wealthier ones HAVE to do anything. You should, but you don't have to. But, some people are never going to be happy unless wealthy Blacks spend all their time in the Ghettos of American trying to help everyone elevate themselves. Forget that these people have lives and want to enjoy their money. I think a line has to be drawn, because eventually.....you have to do it yourself....so there can only be *so* much help.

I think the Blacks of the 70s were well within their rights to escape the riots, poverty and crime and they didn't neccessarily owe it to anyone to come back and help anyone outside of their families. They should, but they don't have to. While a lot of Blacks are held down by barriers and the fact that they were born poor, others need to get up and get it done if they want to improve their lives. I'm tired of hearing how affluent Blacks should do more for people who ain't doing isht in the first place. Barriers only go so far......some (not most) people are just effin up.




Peace,





M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

its perfectly within your matural rights to beone, but you are a snob, based on what you said.


'i cant tell where yours ends, and mine begins...' i.a

maintain your composure, kiko.

on sabbatical.

does it really matter?

wonder what bin's doing?
http://i.imgur.com/phECCMp.jpg

Binlahab, at least elaborate before you throw insults...

_________________________
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http://twitter.com/KMBReferee
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why he's a snob?

what exactly is snobbish about him?

what exactly is negative about his snobbishness?

what exactly is positive about his snobbishness?


you elaborate.


'i cant tell where yours ends, and mine begins...' i.a

maintain your composure, kiko.

on sabbatical.

does it really matter?

wonder what bin's doing?
http://i.imgur.com/phECCMp.jpg

Hmm, I could've sworn I already established that in my post. But thanks for telling me, I feel so enlightened now.





M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

'i cant tell where yours ends, and mine begins...' i.a

maintain your composure, kiko.

on sabbatical.

does it really matter?

wonder what bin's doing?
http://i.imgur.com/phECCMp.jpg

he said carlton.

bin.

that's WRONG.

*snicker*

wrong, i tell ya.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

V I V R A N C E 2001:
TinkyWinky - Posdnuos
Vivrant - q-tip
bfnh - dres
guinness - ju-ju
Mosaic - common
ILLWILL - Chi Ali! hahaha!!!
SqueegieXM - Prince Paul
Kay Dee - Ali Shaheed
Nickelz45 - psyco les
Raina - monie love
Phil - Jarobi
Donwill - trugoy

"Where the F*CK is my purse icon??????"

:::::::::::::
"And I know what the fuck an option quarterback is. He's the black QB under six feet that ends up being converted to wide receiver once he's selected on day two of the NFL draft because he can't hit the ocean from the edge of a boat."

--

12? 13? Maybe as old as 15?


Anyway, if wanting to live in an area where the property value appreciates and that's a nicer place to live makes me a snob. So bet it.

I don't know why some people find that negative, but that's really their problem.



Peace,



M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

with your snobbish notions, sir.


and like I said before, you are perfectly within your rights to turn your back on your own people.


snob.



'i cant tell where yours ends, and mine begins...' i.a

maintain your composure, kiko.

on sabbatical.

does it really matter?

wonder what bin's doing?
http://i.imgur.com/phECCMp.jpg

O.J.? O.J.? Motha****'in OJ?

Negro, you must be crazy.

Since you're the expert on where Blacks should live, how about you articulate for my confused snobbish mind how choosing to live in a nice area (and *gasp* enjoying what I've worked for) constitutes turning my Back on my people?

I mean who is at risk here? If I were to move into a poor Black neighboorhood, I risk my finances and I could risk my safety. What do the current residents risk? Nothing. So how can they judge me for staying away?

I could've sworn that commitment was defined by your actions and not your address, but that's just me. Particularly since my upbringing in a nice, safe suburban area with the good schools and positive property values didn't stop my parents from doing a shit load for the community (and us kids as well).

But I guess having an address in a poor community is more important then your actions, and my broke ass relatives who used to get on my parents case about where were lived, because we "turned our backs" are more socially conscious, even if they don't do isht for anyone but themselves. But damnit, they have that all important address.

So seriously, enlighten me: How is my commitment to the community defined by my address?

Don't pull the cliched "Black Dollars" argument either. The biggest problem poor Black communities have (particularly when compared to poor White ones) is that they don't own the property in their communities and that they own few businesses. I've had some involvement with CDCs and I know the deal, it's hard for poor Black communities to advance because they don't have enough ownership to muster the economic strength to turn things around. Even if Affluent Blacks moved in (at a risk to their own well being and not that of the current residents) they would just end up pumping money into the hands of people who don't live in those communities anyway, so the net economic gain is little, if anything.





Peace,






M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

"but I don't want to live next door either" ~ M2


remember that lil line? your black in the eyes of the masses (i assume, if your white, your merely racist.) meaning that when someone of whatever color looks at you, you'd be considered black. where your family (God forbid) bankrupted and you were forced to move in next door to a lower economic neighborhood surrounded by lower economic people, you would be disgusted @ your situation. you feel that this lower economic neighborhoods are not the place for someone liek you. What you dont seem to understand, is that those people your new neighbors, are people just like you. who want the best for their families just like you. they aren't sadistic murderers or crackheads (at least not all of them) they are good by and large tax paying, family supporting, poor black folks. They make EXCELLENT neighbors. if you would drop your pretensions, and invest in a home in a lower economic neighborhood, you'd see this. instead you see the young boys on the corner, and are afriad they'll rob you. and they might. but not because they are crazy, and looking for thrills (as suburb kids will rob u for just those reasons) they'll rob you because your walking around liek your shit doesn't stink, blowing by ppl w/o saying excuse me, not giving a nod when you look @ some, and in general treating people as if they are inferior to you. that, and they are hungry and the corner weed traffic is slow. Those are YOUR people. or does the fact that you have money and education suddenly seperate you from them?

I mean, am I wrong?

and you want to know HOW your a snob? NIGGA, please.


'i cant tell where yours ends, and mine begins...' i.a

maintain your composure, kiko.

on sabbatical.

does it really matter?

wonder what bin's doing?
http://i.imgur.com/phECCMp.jpg

-I have no problems with poor people, I have a problem with the AREA they live. It's not the people themselves (with the exception of rednecks and hillbillys) it's the area. I want a nicer house, nicer surroundings. I care about the environment I live in, not the people. I also want to live in an area with good property values. The Neighboors are called "poor" for a reason.

I've got this nice grass expanse behind my house in my development, when my little brothers or cousins come and visit, we can play catch or throw a football outside. It's cool for
Bar-B-Ques too. I'm working from home right now and there is a bird sitting on my window sill, just chillin. The only sound I hear, is the occassional sound of children playing and the birds...that's it.

I could care less who my neighboors are, (with the exception of rednecks) I don't plan on talking to them anyway. It's not because I look down on other people, it's because I want to be left alone. The last thing I want to do when I come home from after a 12 hour day between my commute and work itself, is to have small talk with the neighboors. I want to chill in my home, get a bite to eat and recharge before I go to the gym.

I'm not worried about the neighboors I'd have in a poor neighboorhood, I'm worried about those fools on the corner. I don't want to be near that shit. Yeah, it happens in the burbs too (actually more drug dealers then in the hood) but it's spread out and not out in the open where that kind of negativity can spill over on to me.

Gettin robbed? Well I know where that stuff would happen in the burbs (not everyone in the burbs has loot, lot's of poor folks here too) and I'm less worried about here then if I moved to a poor neighboorhood.

Overall, I think that anyone who doesn't want to live in a poor neighboorhood has a good reason not to. There are disadvantages that have nothing to do with the overall quality of the people, if anything it's the value of the property and a few bad apples spoiling the bunch.

I also think about my uncle, who tried to stay in a poor Black Neighboorhood for as long as he could. Just trying to stay near his people. Until someone got shot outside his house, there was a drug bust two blocks over and his 2 year son almost got killed
in a cross fire of a shooting.

Now I visited him for years at that place and now 95% of the people there were good, decent, law abiding people. But that other 5% can spoil shit with a quickness.

As for not talking to people, I don't talk to anyone when I walk down the street. I watch everyone, but I never make eye contact and I never acknowledge them or say hi. Why? Because I see no need to greet people I don't know, I'm a solitary man and I'm not a friendly person. Besides, that's how I was taught to walk city streets, by my fam from NYC. Yes, even the ones who lived/still live in poor neighboorhoods.




Peace,




M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

MAN, I GREW UP IN THE HOOD MOVED OUT WHEN I WAS BOUT 18.... NOW I LIVE IN THE BURBS... THIS ISH IS HELLA BORIN, I HATE THE BURBS AND HALF THE CATS IN IT .... MOST PEOPLE IN THE BURBS ARE FAKE AS HELL..... AY, I UNDERSTAND YOU WANTIN TO LIVE SOMEWHERE NICE BUT MAN, THERE IS NOTHING LIKE THE HOOD. MAN EVEN THE KIDS IN THE BURBS ARE SCARED TO PLAY IT SEEMS LIKE.... I STARTED CRACKIN UP WHEN I SAW THIS KIDS WITH ALL THAT PROTECTIVE GEAR ON, JUST TO RIDE A BIKE IN A DEAD END STREET......M2 I CAN KINDA FEEL YOU BUT YOU GOTTA KNOW WHERE YOU COME FROM AND MOST IMPORTANTLY HOW TO SURVIVE..... JUST CAUSE OF MY HOOD TEACHINS, I'M NOT SCARED TO GO ANYWHERE AND I CAN ALSO RECOGNIZE DANGER AND A SCAM..... CAN YOU ????? THE OLD HOOD WAS THE ISH, BUT THESE CATS NOW.... MAN THE HOOD IS A WAR ZONE SOMETIMES....... BUT, M2 THERE ARE LESSON TO BE LEARN YOUNG GRASS HOPPER....

"Niggas mad cause Ibrags about the cash I got, but I'm used to not havin alot, I'm from the gutter and ohh..."-Jay-Z

"Expensive shoes worn, Loui Viton see-through gone, CoChes, my face is like a coupon..."Jay-Z

-Technically, I AM living where I came from. However, "The Hood" is an economic situation more then a cultural one. I don't see it as the same thing as say, tracing one's roots to Africa. To me that's tracing your heritage and cultural roots. The hood is/was a situation created by economics and I don't really feel that economic situations are part of one's heritage or culture. HISTORY yes, but not culture/heritage.

-Recognizing danger, scams and survival are not neccessarily traits that are confined to people who grew up in the hood

-Flip Side: Would people from the "hood" recognize some of the financial/investing scams that people try to pull on people in the burbs?

Could people from the Hood survive in "this" environment? Where survival means a well paying job, a mortgage, a car note and socking away a few $ in the bank?

The point is that everyone's environment teaches them to survive and look out for themselves on some level. I may not neccessarily know how to get by in the Hood, but people from the hood may not know how to build a more comfortable life that would facilitate moving to the burbs.

Yeah, things are quiet and boring. But after a 12 hour day, I want things to be quiet and boring.

I know what you mean about the kids with all the protective gear, but hey, I'd rather my parents be overprotective then underprotective.......still glad they didn't put all that isht on me when I was a kid.


Peace,




M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

AY, M2 AT LEAST YOUR TRYIN TO UNDERSTAND YOUR SELF AND YOUR PEOPLE A LITTLE BETTER, YOU LOGG IN TO THIS WEB SIDE ALOT. MAN, JUST DO YOUR THING AND RESPECT EVERYBODY AS THEY COME. DON'T PREJUDGE OR LOCK YA CAR DOORS WHEN YOU SEE A BLACK BRAH....


DAMN YOU WENT TO A ALL WHITE SCHOOL???? BOY I COULDN'T EVEN IMAGINE..... I WOULD'VE CHOKED THE SHIT OUT OF SOMEBODY THERE, I KNOW IT !!!!!

"Niggas mad cause Ibrags about the cash I got, but I'm used to not havin alot, I'm from the gutter and ohh..."-Jay-Z

"Expensive shoes worn, Loui Viton see-through gone, CoChes, my face is like a coupon..."Jay-Z

>'i cant tell where yours ends,
>and mine begins...' i.a
>
>maintain your composure, kiko.


HAAAAA HAHAAAA HELL NAW NOT CARLTON.........LMAO

"Niggas mad cause Ibrags about the cash I got, but I'm used to not havin alot, I'm from the gutter and ohh..."-Jay-Z

"Expensive shoes worn, Loui Viton see-through gone, CoChes, my face is like a coupon..."Jay-Z

Do you feel there is a problem with elitism within the black community?

- Elitism is not exclusive to the black community, it is a universal issue. Classism is alive in every society.

Do you think it can be pointed back to the Talented Tenth theory and do you believe in it?

- I think DuBois simply put a name on an existing cultural institution. I do not believe in "the idea that only 10% of black people had the capability and knowledge." I also don't agree that "the efforts on civil rights and equality should be focused on them, and from them they shall lead us to the promised land." That is so ridiculous. There have been many social revolutions masterminded by the poor and uneducated, unfortunately, they usually appoint someone that has experience with the government/system/etc. that they have overthrown.

I do understand that our capitalist society cannot function as a world power if all of the people have access to education that would give them exposure and the opportunity to shine academically. Since they are never allowed to have a voice, they are never given an opportunity to lead.

Anyhoo...

Do you think your personal beliefs about what needs to be done to uplift black people runs together or in contrast with elitism. Why or why not.

- That's a toughie. I do believe that it amounts to noblesse oblige. I would say that it has to be an elitist construct to believe that because I have an education, or money or what have you, that I am an authority in some right, and that I know the answers because I have encoutered success in my battle to master our capitalist society. Who the hell am I to think that I know what is best for the members of my community. I don't know the answers to shit. Taking kids from the PJ's to a play and giving them free music lessons might keep them from participating in crime as a youth, but if there aren't any jobs or decent housing for them and their neighbors what the hell does it all amount to?

And of course AA programs benefit minority students who are from the middle and upper class more than others, they are the ones that have been given the opportunity to take advantage of these programs. I was shocked when some of my cousins in H.S. didn't know when the SAT was being given, when they needed to take it, when to apply to schools, etc. At my high school it was drilled into our heads from day one, but that's because I went to a school full of middle and upper class black kids. We have been groomed from day one. But that is not exclusive to our ethnicity, it is exclusive to our class.


Yes, I have fallen victim to asking people where they are from, what school they went to and all that bullshit. But I never started doing that until I moved away from home. Everybody there was from the same place, and that was totally uninteresting. I can be a bit nosy sometimes, but that's because I find great pleasure in meeting people with different experiences than my own, alas, because my life is so boring. Yeah, I just turned down a second job that I really needed because I would be serving coffee. I refuse to serve anyone, but does that make me an elitest?

It may look like the members of the "tenth" move away and neglect their people, and it might be true. There really isn't any excuse for the neighborhoods surrounding the HBCUs in Atlanta, Howard, Fisk, and TSU, but I believe they are just a reflection of what inner city life is like for our people. The HBCUs in the burbs usually have nicer surrouding communities (by nicer I don't mean plush, just a better presentation).

I have battled for years with the responsiblity I have for my community. As I march off to law school I feel bad for abandoning my teaching position because of low pay. It hurts me to want to move out of my neighborhood because I have been physically assaulted twice by silly boys that didn't know that just because I'm a woman and I don't look like a local, that I grew up in the city and I could kick their ass. But what the fuck am I supposed to do?

I mean really... What was this post about again?

>Do you feel there is a
>problem with elitism within the
>black community?

Depends on how you define it. The talented tenth is really a black version of trickle down economics, which is really just the American version of democratic aristocracy.

As I see it, there are 4 sets of elites, 2 of which in the public eye.

- NAACP types - Aside from Racism, we like America the way it is, and this is how we want to get our slice - level the playing field

- Jc Watts/Ward connorly's - Aside from racism We like ameica the way it is, and this is how we want to get our slice - the playing field is level, we need to pull ourselves up by the bootstraps.

then you got the radicals

>Do you think it can be
>pointed back to the Talented
>Tenth theory and do you
>believe in it?

I think the white folks in power don't want to deal with people in general. So they look for their representatives. We always have to have a black leader. Who is the comparable white leader? Is it the president, the important guys on the congressional committees, the local police chief, the folks on corporate boards?

You realize if they had dropped a bomb at the million man march, we would have lost a good chunk of our 10%.

They can just ship in a group of Yale/harvard graduates and business as usual.

>And here's the kicker: Do
>you think your personal beliefs
>about what needs to be
>done to uplift black people
>runs together or in contrast
>with elitism. Why or
>why not.

I don't know how to address some of our problems. But I do think a core set of elites pretty much run everything via their actions. But this is not some illuminati type stuff, but folks like Bush, Greenspan, Gates and other cats really do things that affect where this country, and subsequently our people go.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

>As I see it, there are
>4 sets of elites, 2
>of which in the public
>eye.
>
>- NAACP types
>- Jc Watts/Ward connorly's
>then you got the radicals

is it just me or is that just three (or are there 2 within the "radicals" that you didn't feel the need to define specifically?

on topic...i already answered this question before:

i believe the "talented tenth" concept veers very close to the idea that some of us are "better" for reasons other than life dealing a "good hand". similarly, when we DO subdivide ourselves as such is it to determine a mmethodology by which the 10% can grwo to a higher number, or is it an attempt at self aggrandization? methinks the latter.

but what do i know?

If I may add something:

I think the talented tenth really comes about when people feel as if they're "special" or had some sort of "divine right" to succeed or that they're simply more intelligent then the average person.

I know the latter for damn sure ain't true, because I work with people who are IDIOTS! Half the things I say go right over their heads, but they're making 300k/year.

In any event, this happens with all people, I just read an article in Forbes that says that the "SAT is not discriminatory, it discriminates against DUMB kids, not minorities, women or poor folks. It then uses a graph showing the relation between your parents income and your SAT scores, appparently being born to a family making less then 25k and a family making 6 figures can account for a 300 point swing on your test.

WE know that this is due to better schooling, parents pushing the kids, the kids taking the test more often because they have to have that good score to get into a top school, etc. Not because of some divine birthright that they were lucky enough to be born into a affluent family.

The problem with this, is that these people are now incapable of imparting their knowledge to those who have less and are interested in elevating themselves. How could they? From their perspective, it was their birthright, so how can they teach the innate?

I also think that others will perceive someone as *thinking* they belong to the talented tenth, if that person credits their success to their hard work & intelligence and not to just being lucky or being born with a good hand.

This is not to say that the perception is entirely off, successful people "know" how to be successful. Whether it's something as simple having the motivation to attend and complete college, or knowing how to seize opportunities, or just the steps they needed to take to be in a position to succeed. BUT, that doesn't mean that their hard work and intelligence wasn't 90% of the reason for their success.

If you ask me, this person CAN help others less fortunate because he/she can impart their knowledge in terms of what they needed to do to succeed. Since their not perceiving it as a product of their birth, I think they'll be in a better mental position to help others.



Peace,





M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

are the 2 types of radicals I was talking about. Both are anti status-quo, but for different reasons and motivations.

Alek is more universal/humanitarian based
Solarus is from a more Afrakan mindset

Both are displeased with how the current system works.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

?Do you feel there is a problem with elitism within the black community?

yeah

>Do you think it can be pointed back to the Talented Tenth theory and do you believe in it?

no i think its economics fuck that theory


? And here's the kicker: Do you think your personal beliefs about what needs to be done to uplift black people runs together or in contrast with elitism. Why or why not.


fuck elitism I believe in upliftment of everyone through enlightment and effecting postive change in your commuity the second you start to seperate youself from your community because you have a little more money fuck you word




If there is no struggle there is no progress Those who profess to favor freedom yet deprecate agitation are men who want the crops without plowing up the ground they want the rain without the thunder and lighting power concedes nothing without demand it never has and it never will
- Fredrick Douglas



http://www.ventmag.com

Given Dubois' politics and his legacy, I'd say your description of his "Talented Tenth" theory as the catalyst for Afro-elitism is valid.

But I've always liked the Talented Tenth theory on some level because I think it says we should set our standards according to our best and brightest. Encouraging folks to aspire to the median has always seemed like a cop out to me.

---I'm here---

"I stay paid like a homeless man on a bus bench all day." -- okayplayer JUSTICE

---i'm here---

"...do what scares you..." -- l. varela

>I think it says we should set our standards
>according to our best and
>brightest.

best and brightest according to what barometer or set of standards? monetary success? assimilation into the "american dream".

why not strive for individual maximization (be it spiritual, financial, cultural or whatever the individual might choose) rather than for conformity to an outside set of potentially faulty goals (money != happiness. for example)?

Is a good goal.

But what's attracted me to the idea of the Talented Tenth is that we don't have to dumb our culture down -- that it's okay for someone to be good and not ashamed of their proficiency. That they can use their talent/success to guide others.

Please be clear, money/materialism is not what I'm referring to.

---I'm here---

"I stay paid like a homeless man on a bus bench all day." -- okayplayer JUSTICE

---i'm here---

"...do what scares you..." -- l. varela

>Do you feel there is a
>problem with elitism within the
>black community?

Yes. There is a problem. What we see as elitism stems from what we define as "power". Somethings, I feel we place too much value on. Therfore giving "it" a sense of power.


>
>Do you think it can be
>pointed back to the Talented
>Tenth theory and do you
>believe in it?

As far as the "Talented Tenth" theory, you should read his follow up essay that he wrote about 30 or so years later. DuBois came to grips that his initial theory was misconstrued and leaked in certain areas. To a large extent, we should be lead by our educated people, because as DuBois really wanted it to be, so that those "10%" could come back and serve the community as professionals. I see it as more of a theory on how to be a role model. Of course, after the theory became public, it did not end up that way as planned.

>
>And here's the kicker: Do
>you think your personal beliefs
>about what needs to be
>done to uplift black people
>runs together or in contrast
>with elitism. Why or
>why not.

To me, elitism is the belief that you have no accountability to someone else. that you have nobody to answer to. So, in interacting with others, you come across as having some sort of a "God Complex" or some shit like that. Like one BGLO's motto is "Greater service. Greater progress", there needs to be more of that occuring in the advancement of our people's educational endeavors. The belief and the reality that with the accumulation of degrees and knowledge, there is a responsibility to use that knowledge for the progress of our people.

Thass how I view DuBois' "Talented Tenth" theory.



"The reason most black folks don't have any culture is because it is out on loan to white people. With no interest."
(c)Ralph Wiley

little......
*************************************
http://members.blackplanet.com/GrumpyBear/
*************************************

"Life's a bitch....BUT I LOVE THAT BROAD!!!" (c) AVE.....http://www.tha-renaissance.com/

________________________________________
Grump
http://twitter.com/Gator_Bell

>"we should be lead by our educated people"

So the folks leading us aren't educated?

Is education really the key?

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

Being educated is one criteria, but the sense of accountability to those who could not attain the same academic and economic achievements as you did is the other component.

We have educated leaders, but many of them don't have the fervor of responsibility to the masses that DuBois was looking for in the broader sense.



"The reason most black folks don't have any culture is because it is out on loan to white people. With no interest."
(c)Ralph Wiley

little......
*************************************
http://members.blackplanet.com/GrumpyBear/
*************************************

"Life's a bitch....BUT I LOVE THAT BROAD!!!" (c) AVE.....http://www.tha-renaissance.com/

________________________________________
Grump
http://twitter.com/Gator_Bell

Thanks Grump.

You done said exactly what was on my mind.

---I'm here---

"I stay paid like a homeless man on a bus bench all day." -- okayplayer JUSTICE

---i'm here---

"...do what scares you..." -- l. varela

Let's step out of the world of the Afrikan, and look into the world of the european. Ostensibly, they elect their smart/educated people. The smart/educated people are the ones in charge. If you don't count the politicians, the power brokers at least, are smart/educated.

Are they better off for it?

In terms of justice for the masses, I would argue that education/intelligence of leadership is a non-issue.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

When was the last time we had a president that did not hold a college degree?

Most leaders are in fact educated or else why wouldn't they be the person in charge. Somewhere along the journey to attain leadership, the person trying to obtain that particular role will be tested on their mental capacity(i.e. the intelligence) to see if they are fit to represent the greater masses.



"The reason most black folks don't have any culture is because it is out on loan to white people. With no interest."
(c)Ralph Wiley

little......
*************************************
http://members.blackplanet.com/GrumpyBear/
*************************************

"Life's a bitch....BUT I LOVE THAT BROAD!!!" (c) AVE.....http://www.tha-renaissance.com/

________________________________________
Grump
http://twitter.com/Gator_Bell

and things haven't changed.

thus educated leaders does not equal change

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

To some extent, of course, white folks are better off. However, like I said, with white people, when was the last time they had an uneducated leader achieve societal change?



"The reason most black folks don't have any culture is because it is out on loan to white people. With no interest."
(c)Ralph Wiley

little......
*************************************
http://members.blackplanet.com/GrumpyBear/
*************************************

"Life's a bitch....BUT I LOVE THAT BROAD!!!" (c) AVE.....http://www.tha-renaissance.com/

________________________________________
Grump
http://twitter.com/Gator_Bell

- repeal of the estate tax
- sponsoring of faith based communities
- tax cuts....

Don't get me started.

- getting a college education doesn't make you a better leader
- getting a college education does less to put you in tune with the "common" man
- most of their leaders are college educated, but they aren't necessarily doing better because those leaders were educated
- there are plenty of presidents who didn't go to college. (mostly in the 17-1800's, but that's besides the point)
- Malcolm X wasn't a college graduate

basically good leadership is independent of a college education.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

Ya still overlooking the accountability portion. A college education is nill if you don't have a responisbility. Besides, with Bush, is anybody gonna come to a consensous that he was a great leader, later on in the future? To some extent, yes, leadership is seperate from a college education. However, with so many people college educated, how can you NOT be as well and still become a leader?



"The reason most black folks don't have any culture is because it is out on loan to white people. With no interest."
(c)Ralph Wiley

little......
*************************************
http://members.blackplanet.com/GrumpyBear/
*************************************

"Life's a bitch....BUT I LOVE THAT BROAD!!!" (c) AVE.....http://www.tha-renaissance.com/

________________________________________
Grump
http://twitter.com/Gator_Bell

I understand. It's independent of education if you ask me.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

I think that some of what we experience as people particularly as it refers to elitism and classim, stems from the fact that many of the idelogies that govern our lives are steeped in the logic of people like Plato (and his followers) and his concept of utopian society.Plato envisioned a society where there are "to be the select few who know what is best for society". Because we as a people cannot dictate to the larger society what to do, we shrink the scope of this arguement to the scope of our own people, thus the "tenth" deem themselves worthy (because of their education, professional affiliations, fraternity and sorority memberships, etc)to rule over the masses of their own people.

Just a thought...

the last few posts have been about the qualifications for leadership. I feel that the most important aspect of leadership is a sense of purpose: knowing what you want to accomplish, how you plan to do it, and having the dedication to achieve it. no matter how educated, or accountable you are you've got to have a goal. Jesse jackson is in all the hot water he's in now, not because he's some evil man, but cuz he lost that vision. Think about, one minute he's in Yugoslavia freeing soldiers, next he's in Illinois fighting for suspended students(which he had no buisness dealing with in the first palce), then protesting John Ashcroft, and recently trying to get gas companies to delay payments, etc. If the talented Tenth are going to make any lasting progress, they'll have to have a goal and stick to making it a reality.

The definition of a clique is an elitist group. People like to join cliques for different reasons: to achieve/link a common goal or interest, to support individual interests based on a standard, or to compete. Black people have always strived to reach the level of the white elite for priviledge, power or pleasure. Black folks have always compared their lives to those with priviledge, often without reason or compromising their culture & individualism.

Living like white people has been the benchmark for progress and success- no matter what excuses we come up with. Many Black people have willingly abandoned community building and nationalism in order to live like the Master. This has had a detrimental effect on the esteem and value of Black culture, determination and the individual/self.

Elitists have a "camper" mentality. Campers gain some ground (education, finances) and then they become comfortable. Campers view success as a destination, as opposed to a journey. They stop seeking self actualization. They find like-minded people to camp with and they feel threatened by people who are ascending or climbing. Thus, the "crabs in the barrel" mentality.

Black folks used duBois' "Talented Tenth" concept to create a clique and rift in the Black Community. Again, true progress was sacrificed to achieve equality with Master or to obtain what white people had.

Finally,
>Do you feel there is a
>problem with elitism within the
>black community?

As I stated above, elitism in the Black Community has had a detrimental effect on the esteem and value of Black culture, determination and the individual/self. Where are the real Black leaders? I've experienced a socio-political vacuum in the Black Community.

>And here's the kicker: Do
>you think your personal beliefs
>about what needs to be
>done to uplift black people
>runs together or in contrast
>with elitism. Why or
>why not.

I've always been a climber and I sometimes camp out to refuel and reenergize myself for the next climb. I am focused on the path and willing to sacrifice joining cliques in order to reach my goals. Like a butterfly, I am in and out of professional cliques. I have the education, experience and success to earn membership to the Black elite but I bypass all of that in order to realize my vision.

My goal is to make a difference and my vision is to see Black people empowered (short version), not the priviledged few but all Black and under-served people. I have been asked to be on this board or to join that organization and I have resisted. I am not trying to educate or inspire people without vision or the courage to give back to the ones who need more opportunities. So, I work here and there, all over the country helping people in Black and under-served communities. I am not financially well-off and I accept that because I am willing to sacrifice priviledge in order to have freedom to live my dreams.


"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.