After hearing of Nathaniel Hawthorne yesterday, I sat down on my couch and noticed two toy guns my son got from a trip to Disneyland last year (Indiana Jones guns). It got me to thinking about whether I should allow him to play with them. I don't allow him to play violent computer/video games nor do allow him to watch violent movies. He spent the night at my sisters house once and she let him (and her kids) watch the movie 'The Patriot' (a war movie)and 'American Werewolf in Paris'. Movies I would never let him watch. THe next day he was yapping on and on about war and cannonballs knocking people's heads off and such. Is this just him being a boy?(I've never understood WHY boys/men do the things they do. I'm female)
And if so, why are boys/men so intrigued with gross, gruesome, and sometimes frightening shit? (when I was 7, I remember my cousins beggin me to let them stab my dead goldfish before I buried it). How do you know if you're raising a Jeffrey Dahmer or Nathaniel Hawthorne or not? Not that I think my boy is a sicko, but I'm worried here, so I'm rambling. I know I can't shield him from all the bad elements of life, but how do you know which ones will stick, and when that interest in stabbing fish is something more than boys being boys, but boys at the early stages of becoming sick men? Make sense? I hope so.

I want him to be disturbed by death and violence, not intrigued by it. Are we desensitizing our children by allowing them to witness violent acts on television and play violent games?

I'm interested in knowing what OKP's think about allowing kids to play with violent toys/video games or watch violent movies. Are we breeding a bunch of violent children? Was Nathaniel Hawthorne just a product of bad parenting? WOuld I be overreacting if I threw out my sons' guns, swords, etc.??? What do yall think?

y'all *really* think" that you're tricking somebody into something don't you? what you don't realize is that most women decide within the first 5 minutes of meeting a dude whether or not they'll sleep with him. all your "game" is merely entertainment. - H

it's nearly impossible to keep things a way from children. so what i suggest is you absolutely make your son aware of them, in the same way you teach them about kitchen knives and poison under the sink. "This is what this is and this is why it's not good for you."
________________________________________
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>And if so, why are boys/men
>so intrigued with gross, gruesome,
>and sometimes frightening shit?

From reflections on my childhood (which may have zero application anywhere else): Some of it was just a general curiosity about how things work (including death/dismemberment). Some of it was enjoying what little power I had. Some of it was enacting things I had seen/heard-about (in movies, from family, from friends, etc). Regardless, none of this is bad or sick...what is important comes next....

>I want him to be disturbed
>by death and violence, not
>intrigued by it. Are
>we desensitizing our children by
>allowing them to witness violent
>acts on television and play
>violent games?

As has been said already, talk to him (more than once) about violence and death and its repurcussions. Kids are smart...they understand things. Explain that the curiosity is good, but abuse of power and mimicing what you've seen/heard are not. Rather than having him be disturbed, teach him respect for those things that are living as well as dead. If all else fails, resort to the "How would you like it if that was you" line.

The point, in the end:
Don't censor; educate.

"I've been very lonely in my isolated tower of indecipherable speech"--Being John Malchovich

Throwing out your tv is only going to help your kids. I see too many kids (including my little cousins) who end up being obsessed with TV, when they watch, they practically become zombies. Plus, taking away the TV will only force them to develop their mental and physical abilites further. Watching people get killed and dismembered at such a young age, or any age for that matter, is unhealthy and unnatural. Especially when this type of activity is viewed as a way to entertain oneself. Give them hobbies to do, like playing sports or learning a musical instrument.

breeding violent children.

1. I don't have any guns in my home toy or real . I don't like them . I saw my son point a toy one a little too well for me, since then NO GUNS. TV is kept to a minimum, anything showing a lot of death and destruction , gets turned off. He usually watches Scooby-Doo and Dexter's lab .


2. Bad parenting isn't the main culprit. Yes , we can monitor what our children watch , but what about when they are in school, they pick things up from other children. You ca't shield them from evertything, but when you see distrubing behavior talk to them.


3. Violence is glorified in American society. Hockey very violent popular sport, almost all cartoons contain some form of violence, movies, the "good ones" all feature something blowing up or all lot of shoot up scenes. The also see a lot of adults settling disputes with fights, verbal or physical. It's so hard to show a child how precious life is , when all they see everyday is senseless destruction of life.

Shit happens

i have a seven year old brother. literally begged me to tears to buy him a water gun. HELL NO!!! i wouldnt. not a pop gun, not a plastic knife, not a fake pager or phone, not handcuffs. thats not being a child. have you ever held a b-b gun before? did it do something to you? give you some kind of feeling? some kind of rush? it did to me. i fell in love with it. i only held it for a minute. just think if im walking around with it, and got into it with somebody...toys condition children. just as a baby doll conditions a young girl to be a mother, a gun and handcuffs condition boys to be police officers. but i think the difference between the good and ugly of the conditioning is what the actual dialogue is when the children play with these toys. just think, after seeing those movies, that play gun and sword probably have a whole new meaning. because of what a child may hear on t.v. or in the streets i wouldnt put it pass a child to want to handcuff a girl for control reasons, or point a water gun at another boy talking about "give me my money". can you feel me? they get this stuff from cartoons as well as movies. so in my opinion, i would talk to my child as well as keep those toys out of their possession. because its like playing russian roulette, it could go either way.

camil

that what you've done can cause more harm than good. It's like if you never ever let your kids see what the deal was with fire. The first time they can get to a book of matches or a lighter their gonna burn down the house. also see k'orr's response
________________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated.word.fresh.

FROM THE GROUND UP- ROOTS 2nd CD- BUY NOW: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000073F6/qid=989953006/sr=1-1/202-6163542-0903066


ULTIMATE HIP HOP SUPERSTORE: http://www.sandboxautomatic.com/
underground everything -tekzilla 12"'s and the FINAL Company Flow T-shirt


MY LATEST RAP ALIASES- mcbadfeet aka: the mayor goldie wilson of rap, aka big chris the juicebox, aka jesus jones retired messiah, aka the black jamie lawson of rap, aka thurgood killabitch the IV, aka brooklyn jackson from queens, aka homer pimpson, aka alex p. cheatin, aka benny ill, aka stank sinatra, aka michael j. rocks

every kid in America knew how to shoot a gun and go hunting. folks weren't shooting up schools then.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

there wasn't

tv
internet
drugs on every other corner
rampant crime

the list could go on & on...


~~~SPITFIRE: 6/28/01~~~
carameldom@hotmail.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bmore-Okayplayers
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"cats pop champagne/over misery and pain/like slaves on the ship/talkin 'bout/who got the flyest chains" ~~Talib Kweli

"you can't fool me! I'm too stupid!" (c) a random warner bros. cartoon character

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

>there wasn't
>
>tv
>internet
>drugs on every other corner
>rampant crime
>
>the list could go on &
>on...

tv and internet you are correct about...the rest of the list is questionable at best. Glorified past is a common problem...

"I've been very lonely in my isolated tower of indecipherable speech"--Being John Malchovich

when & where 100 years ago in this country were drug dealers tearing apart communities and killing each other in the streets? Of course, drug addiction has always been a problem, but where were the bloods & crips in 1901??!!??

And crime? Yeah...always a problem, true. But people weren't locking their doors like they do now, carrying mace & what not. Think about it.




~~~SPITFIRE: 6/28/01~~~
carameldom@hotmail.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bmore-Okayplayers
(((oh yeah...do us a favor & vote: http://www.geocities.com/bmorestreetwise/flyers.html)))

"cats pop champagne/over misery and pain/like slaves on the ship/talkin 'bout/who got the flyest chains" ~~Talib Kweli

"you can't fool me! I'm too stupid!" (c) a random warner bros. cartoon character

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

can we say "organized crime"?
the mob, mafia, etc.
they were existant then.

>when & where 100 years ago
>in this country were drug
>dealers tearing apart communities and
>killing each other in the
>streets?
chicago, new york.

Of course, drug addiction
>has always been a problem,
>but where were the bloods
>& crips in 1901??!!??
they are products of the glorfication of organized crime
>
>And crime? Yeah...always a problem, true.
>But people weren't locking their
>doors like they do now,
>carrying mace & what not.
>Think about it.

youre right.

Allah says in the 2nd surah, Al-Baqarah(The Cow) 2.25: But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness, that their portion is Gardens, beneath which rivers flow. Every time they are fed with fruits therefrom, they say: "Why, this is what we were fed with before," for they are given things in similitude; and they have therein companions pure (and holy); and they abide therein (for ever).

subhaanakallahumma wabihamdika ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa attuubu ilaika

It seems to me something happens when the guns are toys. When your experience with a gun (from an early age) is as a toy, if/when you get your hands on a real gun, that is largely how you will treat it. If your experience with a gun is as the weapon that it is (and you are taught to handle it), if/when you get your hands on a real gun...you see where I'm going.

Kids are brought up with knives (big-ass ones) around the house, and are taught right/wrong/good/bad uses for them. You don't get stories about kids "accidentally" stabbing the shit out of their playmates. My guess is because it has been impressed on them that knives aren't toys (that doesn't get rid of any obsessions, though).

Side note: What kind of society would provide a child with a gun as a toy?

"I've been very lonely in my isolated tower of indecipherable speech"--Being John Malchovich

have children, they will not play w/ guns in my house (w/ the exception of water guns that look NOTHING like real ones).

But the things today's children are going through stem from a number of different things. I don't even know where to begin.

Generally, all you can do is be in charge of your home, teach them right from wrong, and pray that when they're out of your sight, they do what u raised them to do.



~~~SPITFIRE: 6/28/01~~~
carameldom@hotmail.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bmore-Okayplayers
(((oh yeah...do us a favor & vote: http://www.geocities.com/bmorestreetwise/flyers.html)))

"cats pop champagne/over misery and pain/like slaves on the ship/talkin 'bout/who got the flyest chains" ~~Talib Kweli

"you can't fool me! I'm too stupid!" (c) a random warner bros. cartoon character

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

>Generally, all you can do is be in charge of your home, teach them right from wrong, and pray that when they're out of your sight, they do what u raised them to do.

Absolutely true.

I sometimes encounter parents with the attitude that if it ain't their kid, they're not worried. Which bother's me. We can't sit back and allow bad kids to be bad kids thinking that it ain't our problem. It is our problem. That same kid could grow up to one day influence my kid to do wrong things or worse, murder him or someone I know. I dunno, maybe it's the maternal instinct in me that makes me wanna do something. But I can't sit back and watch all these lost children get thrown in the gutter.
No matter how in control of our households we are (or think we are) we/our kids live in a society that is careless and irresponsible. I could turn off the tv, disconnect the internet, etc, but he still has to leave the house. My son picks up all sorts of crazy stuff from school and television and family members, etc. I'm working overtime trying to counter all the bad shit he picks up. Like you said, this is a different era and kids today sho' aint like kids of our era or our parents era. My mother told me that the movie "The Blob" was scary as shit back inna day and I remember being deftly afraid of "The Exercist". My little cousins laugh at those movies. That aint shit compared to what they're watching nowadays. I think we all are desensitized.

y'all *really* think" that you're tricking somebody into something don't you? what you don't realize is that most women decide within the first 5 minutes of meeting a dude whether or not they'll sleep with him. all your "game" is merely entertainment. - H

I SEE WHAT YOUR SAYING ABOUT THE VIOLENCE..... BUT WHO WILL KILL THE BUGS AND PICK UP THE NASTY STUFF WHEN YOU WOMAN ARE SCARED TO ....... ( JUST TO ADD A LITTLE HUMOR ) BUT, YEAH YOU CAN'T HIDE IT FROM HIM, CAUSE ONCE HE GETS A TASTE OF IT HE'LL DO LIKE HE DID, RANT AND RAVE ABOUT CANNONBALLS, ETC..... WATCH THEM WITH HIM AND EXPLAIN THAT IT SHOULDN'T BE LIKE THAT OR JUST TEACH HIM THE NEGATIVITIES OF IT...... IT'S JUST LIKE WHEN MOTHERS TRY TO SHIELD THEIR DAUGHTERS FROM BOYS AND NOT TEACH THEM ABOUT IT ALL OF THERE LIVES, AND ONCE THEY GET OUT ON THEIR OWN THEY TURN INTO FREAKS...... SHOW YOUR SON THE WORLD AND TEACH HIM HOW TO NAVIGATE THROUGH IT......


ONE

OH YEAH, I KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN, CAUSE I THOUGHT I NEVER SEE THE DAY WHEN I WOULD LISTEN TO RAP AND SAY "MAN, MY SON WON'T BE LISTENING TO THIS CD." BUT, I DID....... IT'S ALL JUST LOVE...

"Niggas mad cause Ibrags about the cash I got, but I'm used to not havin alot, I'm from the gutter and ohh..."-Jay-Z

"Expensive shoes worn, Loui Viton see-through gone, CoChes, my face is like a coupon..."Jay-Z

When I was 12, my father showed me how to use his gun. I was female, often left at home watching my younger sisters alone and he was worried about wild kids roaming the alley next to the house getting inside the house and harming us while he was away. He demonstrated but did not let me touch it. Ironically, the very next day, a drugged out woman got into the house to kidnap my sisters and I almost killed her.

Now, I am a grown woman and I do not own a gun. I'll never use a gun because I value life, even the lives of criminals and disturbed, violent people. I was so scared back then. I was helpless and the woman was taking my sisters away. I saw the gun and decided I had no choice but to use it. I wanted to scare the woman but the gun went off and the bullet hit the wall. After that I wasn't scared. I felt powerful. The woman left the house in a hurry and I kept the gun with me until my father came home.

I wish this was a tall tale but it's very true. The lesson I learned was that using a gun was in conflict with my inner beliefs (even at age 12). But how many kids get a second chance once they cross that line? Few, if any. I grew up, never got in a fight and managed to survive unharmed and not harming anyone.

When I was child, I lacked the judgement needed to deal with that situation. I felt like the gun was my only option. My father had just taught me that using his gun was a last resort and I felt like that was it. I felt like I had no control and a stranger (an adult) had our lives in her hands. The gun gave me power and control, if only for a moment.

The truth is that many kids feel less and less safe. Some are unsafe at home and unsafe at school. Some feel like they have no options, no control over their lives. We are not breeding violent kids but the society we live in is forcing some kids to take back control by any means necessary.

Is it the television or the movies? No. Kids played with guns since they were made into toys and people watched "The Rifleman", "Gunsmoke" in the 60's, James Bond movies and "Rambo". Many of these movies glorified violence but never have we seen the kind of violence we see kids dealing with now. TV and the movies haven't changed but something else has.


"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

>I sat down on my
>couch and noticed two toy
>guns my son got from
>a trip to Disneyland last
>year (Indiana Jones guns).
>It got me to thinking
>about whether I should allow
>him to play with them.
>I don't allow him to
>play violent computer/video games nor
>do allow him to watch
>violent movies.

you don't allow him to play with violent games or watch violent movies, but you allow him to play with toy guns.
sounds contradictory.

>He spent
>the night at my sisters
>house once and she let
>him (and her kids) watch
>the movie 'The Patriot' (a
>war movie)and 'American Werewolf in
>Paris'. Movies I would
>never let him watch.

but yet,.... you let him play with guns.

here's an example:
dad vehemently said "no" to all R-rated movies, war movies, horror movies, and movies with people in the buff.

mom didn't care. if it was R-rated, so be it.

the paradox: he (dad) is/was the violent one.
i lived with mom/graduated h.s./ currently in college/ all without an episode of harsh violence towards anyone. i don't know whether it was her rearing/ his rearing for my siblings and i not to be like him/or some other environmental factor. or maybe i learned early in life by example- i saw what i *did not* want to become.
Awkward as it may sound, carrying out an act of violence towards someone else has never been an issue for me.

>THe next day he was
>yapping on and on about
>war and cannonballs knocking people's
>heads off and such.
>Is this just him being
>a boy?(I've never understood WHY
>boys/men do the things they
>do. I'm female)

not all males like cannonballs and war. not all females are you.

> Was
>Nathaniel Hawthorne just a product
>of bad parenting? WOuld I
>be overreacting if I threw
>out my sons' guns, swords,
>etc.??? What do yall think?

toy guns were meant for "fun" i suppose. i don't know how much fun pretending to shoot another person is but it's your son and therefore your choice.
if we eliminate all potentially dangerous themes and toys from childrens' lives in efforts to shield the youth, i think a valuable lesson is lost. they (children) lose the abiility to think and rationalize for themselves.

!!!!! TIMID GRAPE !!!!! yea. *just in(different) as i wanna be*

these boards,
engulfed in popularity and flattery,
serve little purpose beyond the innate need to socialize,
therefore,
i consider my posts "writing rehearsals" - not reality

>you don't allow him to play with violent games or watch violent movies, but you allow him to play with toy guns.
sounds contradictory.

You know, before all this shit w/ Nathaniel Hawthorne and all the other kids shooting folks up, I never thought about it. Him having guns I mean. His dad bought the guns I was referring to and I guess I wasn't too alarmed because they don't look like real guns (wooden top, orange tip...). He's never really been interested in them either. That is, until he saw what they can do (The Patriot) which is when I panicked (unnecessarily, I realize). Before he got the guns, he used to play with his buddies and they would use sticks as guns. So now, after reading all of you guys' responses to this I realize that taking the guns away won't solve anything (there are sticks he could substitute them with). I'm not worried so much about him because he's a pretty mild mannered little boy. Not violent at all. Very compassionate nature. I am worried, though about a lot of other kids I know that are violent and quite different in nature who he has constant contact with. I'm worried about him picking up the wrong messages from television and people he encounters (society). For instance, at one time he thought that only men played basketball, football and that women were supposed to be cheerleaders and cook and clean and such. Of course I HAD to dispell that thought. We immediately got on the court and he saw just what his mom could do (I'm BA ).

>not all males like cannonballs and war. not all females are you.

I never said all males were alike. I said I never understood why men/boys do what they do. Men are VERy different from women. Don't you agree? I was looking for a male to help me understand (at least a lil bit) why boys do what they do. Standard Deviant made it all clear for me (thanks).
Not all females understand men. Shit, I've never known ONE who does (even gay ones).

Thanks for your input though. It was truly appreciated.

y'all *really* think" that you're tricking somebody into something don't you? what you don't realize is that most women decide within the first 5 minutes of meeting a dude whether or not they'll sleep with him. all your "game" is merely entertainment. - H

was written by nathaniel hawthorne.

the teacher was killed by nathaniel brazill.

and american culture is something else. instant gratification. if i don't get my way..i'll shoot you. it's on tv...but don't do like they do on tv
thousands of women got that popular "rachel" haircut a few years back from what they saw on tv. "what a crazy phenomenon"
kids imitate that they see on tv. "these kids are crazy".

the hickory switch has been replace by..."time out". pleeease!

_____________
...no man is an island, entire of itself;
every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less,
as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's
or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me,
for I am involved in mankind,
and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
it tolls for thee.

-John Donne

>"the scarlet letter"
was written by nathaniel hawthorne.
the teacher was killed by nathaniel brazill.

Thanks for clearing that up (:D)

y'all *really* think" that you're tricking somebody into something don't you? what you don't realize is that most women decide within the first 5 minutes of meeting a dude whether or not they'll sleep with him. all your "game" is merely entertainment. - H

>was written by nathaniel hawthorne.
>
>the teacher was killed by nathaniel
>brazill.

I was wondering what Hawthorne had to do with it...

>thousands of women got that popular
>"rachel" haircut a few years
>back from what they saw
>on tv. "what a crazy
>phenomenon"
>kids imitate that they see on
>tv. "these kids are crazy".

On the other hand, to paraphrase Frank Zappa, how many TV shows are about people in love? Does everyone love each other? If TV has that kind of influence, then everyone would love each other and violence wouldn't even be an issue.

--Joe C
"Gyrofrog"
Have sax, will woodshed
-----
http://www.gyrofrog.com