by Knife Abraham, Africa World Press Inc.

Ever start reading a book with such momentum at the beginining you wish everyone around you could be taking the journey with you and participating in the discussion that goes on in your head? Reading a sentence or two and reflecting on it while that dualistic brain goes back and forth weiging the pros and cons of what your take on the subject is? Well, i'm only through the preface and starting the introduction of this book and it is definitely going to be a good read. Some books just have that feeling at the beginning.

So anyways, as I read this text, i'll post some passages and my thoughts for discussion. After glancing through the book I saw topics that we've discussed already and which answer some questions posed by myself and others...

enjoy

The Negroe has long been the clown of history, the football of anthropology and the slave of Industry.

-W.E.B. Du Bois

In being recruited as a slave, the negroe was not merely severed from his own culture, he was psychologically shocked by the process, so that he was bound to become dependent upon his master and his master's culture and social system in every possible way. Having lost the means of fending for himself in the world, he was forced into a Sambo stance, doing what his master bade him, being apathetically grateful for any kindness, and not even aspiring to any kind of independent life.

-S.M. Eikins

"In America, following the upheaval in southern agriculture, hundreds of thousands of Afro-Americans migrated to the northern industrial centres in search of new opportunities. The period also witnessed the participation in the heroic contribution to World War I (1914-1919) by Africans and Afro-Americans. About 400,000 Afro-Americans were drafted, of whom 200,000 were sent to France, where they got a broader vision of the world.

the rallying cry before the end of the war was that of MAKING THE WORLD SAFE FOR DEMOCRACY AND EXTENDING JUSTICE TO ALL. White Americans placed high values on democracy and and 'the American way of life'. Naturally, this had raised vague hopes among blacks that their anomalous opposition in American society might finally find a resolution. Unfortunately, when the war ended the hopes and expectations which Afro-Americans had so anxiously nursed were dashed to the ground."

MY TAKE: although stories of blacks helping this country through countless wars/battles/skirmishes are popular, one has to ask whether or not they were beneficial. Whether it be the Buffalo soldiers killing the native population here in the Americas...the Tuskegee airmen fighting for a place in the American arsenal...or Black vietnam veterans coming back to their sub-citizen status, black people are still trying to fight for equality within the context of someone else's game. I thought that it straight up a waste of time but there are some benefits after all. Steve Cokely is suspicious of ANY black man participating in the armed forces but realizes he benefits revolutionaries can gain from their experience and knowledge...

PLUS, continuing on in the book,

"Although the human status and dignity of the black man was consciously violated in attempts to pin him down to his original place as a slave and a pariah in the western society, the post-war Negroe was a different animal to deal with. Unlike his forebears he was no longer the docile and submissive person whom whites recognised and stereotyped. He was militant and very responsive because of his experiences in the war."

The beginnings of black militancy in America...

A visionary and organisational genius, Garvey capitalised on the dissatisfaction of the post war negroe and on the problems of being black in a white-dominated world. He told his spellbound audiences that racial prejudice was so deeply ingrained in western civilization that it was absolutely futile to appeal to the sense of justice and high -sounding democratic principles proclaimed by white people. Garvey denounced the black leadership for its assimilationist cultural tendencies. Furthermore, in an attempt to liberate blacks from the cobwebs of inferiority, he exalted the nobility and purity of the black race and denounced any form of interracial amalgamation.

but how realistic is that in today's society given the increasing number of bi- and multi- racial children born into this society? As much as Black men drool over light-skinned women with long hair, the likelihood of bi-racial women and multi-racial women no longer being pursued in the name of this philosophy is non-existent.

he exalted
>the nobility and purity of
>the black race and denounced
>any form of interracial amalgamation.
>


"Don't Hate the PLAYA Boy...hate the GAME," Granddad Freeman of the Boondocks(7-11-99)

*Twenty-three percent of women are "autoerotic singles" — they prefer to achieve sexual satisfaction alone(source-bet.com)

*If U have won a Grammy, one of two things are at play: 1. Your shit is TIGHT
2. U are white

-(Me)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Oooo baby I like it raw. Oooo baby I like it RAAAW!(c)ODB- Shimmy Shimmy Ya

i dont think it is very relevant at all in today's context, but then again afrikan culture and ideology is adaptive and inclusive, lemme say that again...adaptive and inclusive. garvey was making a point at black solidarity and not that itegration bug going around. advocating some kind of homogeny is not a bad thing at all. to me, in today's context it would mean black people tappering down/stopping this race mixing, but that's a whole other story...


(((((SCENE FROM AMISTAD)))))

Baldwin(white man): "I said it! I said it! But I shouldn't have. Now what I should have said..."

Translator: "I can't translate that. I can't translate SHOULD."

Roger Baldwin: "You mean there's no word in Mende for SHOULD?"

Translator: "No, either you do something or you don't don't do it."

Roger Baldwin: "What I said to you before the judgment is ALMOST how it works, ALMOST..."

Cinqué (Sengbe): "What kind of place is this?!? Where you almost mean what you say?!? Where laws almost work?!? How can you live like this?!?"

(((((PEACE)))))

another story, but an important story at that. Why not discuss that?



in today's context
>it would mean black people
>tappering down/stopping this race mixing,
>but that's a whole other
>story...
>
>
>(((((SCENE FROM AMISTAD)))))
>
>Baldwin(white man): "I said it! I
>said it! But I shouldn't
>have. Now what I should
>have said..."
>
>Translator: "I can't translate that. I
>can't translate SHOULD."
>
>Roger Baldwin: "You mean there's no
>word in Mende for SHOULD?"
>
>
>Translator: "No, either you do something
>or you don't don't do
>it."
>
>Roger Baldwin: "What I said to
>you before the judgment is
>ALMOST how it works, ALMOST..."
>
>
>Cinqué (Sengbe): "What kind of place
>is this?!? Where you almost
>mean what you say?!? Where
>laws almost work?!? How can
>you live like this?!?"
>
>(((((PEACE)))))


"Don't Hate the PLAYA Boy...hate the GAME," Granddad Freeman of the Boondocks(7-11-99)

*Twenty-three percent of women are "autoerotic singles" — they prefer to achieve sexual satisfaction alone(source-bet.com)

*If U have won a Grammy, one of two things are at play: 1. Your shit is TIGHT
2. U are white

-(Me)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Oooo baby I like it raw. Oooo baby I like it RAAAW!(c)ODB- Shimmy Shimmy Ya

"The ideology of black nationalism was also enhanced by the Pan-African movement, which was born at the turn of the twentieth century too. Like Garveyism, Pan-Africanism waged a struggle for the full emancipation of the black race, but it put accent on the economic and political liberation of the black African nations that languished under colonial rule. It looked at the problem of black identity as an integral whole and gave the black American issue an international perspective. Unlike Garveyism, however, Pan-Africanism was more of a movement of ideas than action. It sought to advance the black cause through expedient propaganda measures, gradually leading on to sterner action."

The military, armed forces was the only way many blacks could get out of the repressive enviroments that they lived in. (hell continue to live in) I cannot fault anyone from wanting to get out of poverty and join the military, especially if the options are limited.
One thing that I have noticed however, in many people who join the military, is the brainwashing program that take place. Not everyone is seceptible to it, but enough are to make me wonder about the affects. It is a double edge sword, like so many things in this society...

peace...

https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

THE ROOTS OF BLACK CONCSCIOUSNESS, Black Nationalism vs. Imperialistic Heritage

"What to the American slave is your Fourth of July? I answer: a day that reveals to him, more than all other days of the year, the gross injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him your celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty, an unholy licence; your national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are empty and heartless, your denunciation of tyrants, brass-fronted impudence; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mockery; your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgiving, with all your religous parade and solemnity, are, to him, mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety and hypocrisy- a thin veil to cover up crimes which would disgrace a nation of savages." -Frederick Douglas

MY TAKE: "WOW", I never knew Douglas felt this way, in all my readings by him, never did I come across something like this. Often my perspective come early July, I never would have thought ancestors back then had such eloquence in illustrating this point. Goes to show, truth transcend time... Funny how we might learn a thing or two about Douglas in school and have his image in our faces as youth, but his ideas (at least the more contrversial ones) are kept out of view. Makes me want to go to an elementary school and tell the children to stop pasting the American flag together and memorizing songs like "United We Stand" (which i still can't forget by the way) as I had to.

More importantly, I wonder how a group of people who struggle the rest of the year for racial equality embrace the ideals of "celebrating OUR nation" when they know the history and know the hypocrisy that goes along with it. I guess S.M. Etkins really knew what he was talking about...

"In being recruited as a slave, the negroe was not merely severed from his own culture, he was psychologically shocked by the process, so that he was bound to become dependent upon his master and his master's culture and social system in every possible way. Having lost the means of fending for himself in the world, he was forced into a Sambo stance, doing what his master bade him, being apathetically grateful for any kindness, and not even aspiring to any kind of independent life." -S.M. Eikins

"The first chapter deals largely with the ideologies of the eighteenth and nineteenth century to show how the adverse racial propaganda of the period had by extension legitimised the low cultural standing of the black person."

At the start of the chapter Manning Nash's "Race and the Ideology of Race" is quoted. Nash identified three areas of confusion which result from the ideology of race and the subordination of culture...

1)the identification of racial differences with cultural and social differences

2)the assumption that cultural achievement is directly , and chiefly, determined by the racial characteristics of a population;

3)the belief that physical characteristics of a population limit and define the sorts of culture and society they are able to to createor participate in.

he argues that " these theories were advanced for the purpose of establishing an ideology of race which had ends other than just racial superiority. The assertion of a white culture through the devaluation of black culture was geared at establishinig an ideology of race which in turn became a basis for all political measures. "

furthermore " building a racial idelogy is not a function of state of knowledge abuot racial differences. It is a response to a situation of social conflict and crisis"

the book illustrates the parallel with the attempt in Nazi Germany to "mark off a socially visible group with supposed racial characteristics ". this shows the case for racial deifferences made between two groups of the sam color. The underlyig idea was to "easily establish the differences between two groups which were culturally and racially dissimilar"

MY TAKE: racism is an outgrowth of western ideology and the color issue is secondar to the culture conflict that instigated the "race idea".

How the angrier part of the "I Have a Dream" speech is hardly ever mentioned.

When I read the beginning of it for the first time, I was surprised at how King was planning to organize people, that there was anger underlying that vision of peace. Combined with that and his later efforts to begin organizing the poor, I began to understand that he was more complex in his thinking than most people know.

If you're not careful, you could think of Frederick Douglas as somewhat quiet and complacent (at least, that's how he's often presented in the first years of school), but he wasn't. That Fourth of July speech is one of my favorites from him. Although he wasn't willing to go as far as some (e.g. he refused to join John Brown), Douglas still knew what was up.



~~~SPITFIRE: 6/28/01~~~
carameldom@hotmail.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bmore-Okayplayers

"The entire world is being driven insane by this single phrase: "My religion alone is true." ...Who can make a system from Divine Mystery? But if any sincere practitioner, within whatever culture or religion, prays and meditates with great devotion & committment to Truth alone, Your Grace will flood his mind and heart..." ~~Ramakrishna

"Ignorance: The Verbal Airborne Disease" (c) my friend Ty

"cats pop champagne/over misery and pain/like slaves on the ship/talkin 'bout/who got the flyest chains" ~~Talib Kweli

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

obtain the full version of King's I have a Dream speech? I get sick of the same old soundbites they show on the news on MLK Day. Speaking of which, how do you all think that Holy Day is best spent? What did YOU do for MLK Day?


"Don't Hate the PLAYA Boy...hate the GAME," Granddad Freeman of the Boondocks(7-11-99)

*Twenty-three percent of women are "autoerotic singles" — they prefer to achieve sexual satisfaction alone(source-bet.com)

*If U have won a Grammy, one of two things are at play: 1. Your shit is TIGHT
2. U are white

-(Me)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Oooo baby I like it raw. Oooo baby I like it RAAAW!(c)ODB- Shimmy Shimmy Ya

I don't know if there is a volume w/ his most famous writings, but it could be something to look for. Also check out some literary anthologies (if memory serves, I read it in the Norton Anthology of African American Literature--but don't quote me on that).

If I see it, I'll let you know.


~~~SPITFIRE: 6/28/01~~~
carameldom@hotmail.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bmore-Okayplayers
(((oh yeah...do us a favor & vote: http://www.geocities.com/bmorestreetwise/flyers.html)))

"cats pop champagne/over misery and pain/like slaves on the ship/talkin 'bout/who got the flyest chains" ~~Talib Kweli

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

i like your tactic of introducing topics of discussion without simply saying "ya gotta read the book"

everything i've read of marcus garvey has been very much on point. do you have any good sources to recommend?


==**peace**==

"The logic of divide and rule is still valid today." Capleton

DomePoem Poets; Vibe Nation; One ppl under the spoken word

.....

"Who need fossil fuel when the sun ain't goin' nowhere"
- Amiri Baraka

http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines

BUY MY BOOK- only $6! Inbox me for details

The Philosophy and Opinions of Marcus Garvey, Or, Africa for the Africans
by Marcus, Garvey, Ann Jacques Garvey (Contributor)

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0912469242.01.LZZZZZZZ.gif

you might be surprised, as i was, that he was quite the poet.

(((((PEACE)))))

his poetry

it was too expensive to buy so i holed myself up in the used bookstore where i found it for a while


==**peace**==

"The logic of divide and rule is still valid today." Capleton

DomePoem Poets; Vibe Nation; One ppl under the spoken word

.....

"Who need fossil fuel when the sun ain't goin' nowhere"
- Amiri Baraka

http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines

BUY MY BOOK- only $6! Inbox me for details

As a means to understanding the need for Black Nationalism to come about, chapter one really focuses on the actions of the oppressors during those times. Here are some of the ideas held by Europeans about blacks which led to how they treated tehm in those times. Remeber: Thought, Word, then Deed...

1)"consequently the colonies were pools of the stereotypes and myths which legitimised the superiority of the superiority of the Anglo-saxon race. One vivid example of this pervasive trend in popular fiction is the work of G.D. Henty, who wrote a number of novels for boys. Henty praised British military valor and stated 'The intelligence of teh average Negro is about equal to that of a European ten year-old."

2)"French as well as British scientists invariably placed blacks at the bottom of the hierarchy of races. This scale was then used to explain the sluggishnes of African social development and the legitimacy of colonising it. In general Africa was put at the stage of Europe in the primeval era. In fact, as the philosopher and naturalist Levallant put it in a book written about the Hottentots, Africa offered 'an understanding of mankind in its childhood'"

3)"Likewise Gobineau, in his book entitled 'Inequality odf human Race', declared blacks to be members of the lowest chain of being. He said he saw the confirmation in history since, according to him, all civilization was due to the white race."

MY TAKE: most often focus is made on the phyical manifestations of racism, but before any action an idea is present...the question then becomes, why did this group have these ideas in the first place? according to marimba ani, in "yurugu" it is because of the cultural imperative of europeans, but that aside, i can't help but wonder how a group must fell about itself to contaminate their own "science" in order to feel superior...

"Don't Hate the PLAYA Boy...hate the GAME," Granddad Freeman of the Boondocks(7-11-99)

*Twenty-three percent of women are "autoerotic singles" — they prefer to achieve sexual satisfaction alone(source-bet.com)

*If U have won a Grammy, one of two things are at play: 1. Your shit is TIGHT
2. U are white

-(Me)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Oooo baby I like it raw. Oooo baby I like it RAAAW!(c)ODB- Shimmy Shimmy Ya

______________________________________
Can't kill something that's already dead.

____________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What? What?

"In fact, the phrase "The New Negro", for whose coinage the Rhodes scholar Dr. Alain Locke is credited, was used at least as early as 1895. the Cleveland Gazette on 28 June 1895 commented on the success of securing a New York Civil Rights Law i an editorial about a class of colored people the "new Negro", who have arisen since the war, with education, refinement and money. Afew months later J.W.E. Bowen spoke of the New Negro who waited patiently for white Americans to be conquered by their love of fair play and would make a great destiny for himself out of the consciousness of a racial personality"

MY TAKE: this section goes on to speak of Booker T. Washington and his drive towards economic success being the vehicle for liberation for black people...one which never worked, which raises the question of whether the neo-Negros who say economics is the way know their history and what they plan to do differently?

What's the biggest problem Most Blacks face?

POVERTY!

Which leads to crime, poor schools, shattered families, makes Blacks Vulnerable to opression, etc.



Booker T wasn't wrong, and this isn't a matter of saying...economic empowerment didn't work, because it's far to early to make that pronouncement. Are Blacks the wealthiest group in America? Are the the vast majority of Blacks Affluent? No, so how can we pronounce this idea as not being a valid method of liberation?

Looking at Booker T's time, how many Blacks actually achieved economic success? Not many. How about now? Well since Whites still make more money then us (on average) and typically have a higher net worth, over Blacks making the same money, I'd say we haven't even reached economic success (as a people) yet.

In other words, it's the 4th inning, we're losing 3-2 and you want to pull the pitcher even though two of those runs were on errors.

In other words, it's too soon to tell.

Furthermore, how do you define liberation? To me it means that people may hate you, but they can't eff with you and if they do, you make em' pay. Well, that's not going to happen in this country until Blacks get ahold of some more economic power. It should be obvious to any of us that money runs this country, if politicians were going to groups of wealthy Blacks for campaign funds and these Brothas & Sistas would call in those favors when a Black Man was unneccessarily shot in the street, things would change around this land of ours.

However, Liberation also means that you escape from a situation that someone else defined for you. Poverty is generational, so is lack of education and disenfranchisement. Blacks were put in a poverty situation by Slavery, Racism and Jim Crow. Well, I'm not poor, no one opresses me. I make more $ then my white friends from college.....and they're professionals just like me. So what if my neighboors hate me, so what if Co-workers do......they aren't preventing me from living my life.

Granted I get profiled, calling folk to rent a house is a pain because people hear my name and think "oh my god, a negro" and let's face it living as a Black Man in America is stressful. People can still eff with us.......but not as much as they could to our fathers.....and our sons will face less. As more and more Blacks achieve economic success and basically take our piece of the pie, we'll be in less of a position to be opressed and that's the point of economic empowerment.

Recognizing history is important in terms of seeing where we've come from and how getting control of our economics is still a priority. But it's short sighted to pronounce dead the theory of economic empowerment being important, particularly when we have a generation of Brothas who feel that slinging rock is the only way they can survive financially and in light of how far we have to go.

This comes down to Quality of life, that of a poor man worrying about the Bills and if his sons will make it until their 18th Birthdays. OR a man worrying about whether or not his kids will get into their first choice colleges and where to vacation that year. The wealthier man can also focus more energy on helping the less fortunate and making a change in this country, which he will do when he meets with his political action group to bribe I mean donate money to politicians.

That's the other thing, Blacks need to learn how to use their money too.

Look at the Jews, people hate them almost as much as they hate us. But who gets effed with the least?

I rest my case.





M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

i thought about the responses i would get to this issue and was really siding with the economic empowerment route. matter of fact, when i think of myself personaly, the ONLY reason i'm in the field i'm in right now is because of the amount of money i can generate and how the connects i have can make a difference over the next 10-20 years in the industries...

solarus always says " you can't teach a hungry child, you have to feed him before delivering the message." the situation of my people would be BETTER with economic strength but in looking at the situations that we globally have to deal with as far as the adoption of this "capitalistic culture", there is much more to be addressed...and this is what my concern is, and what i got from the path Booker T. Washington was taking. Perhaps the economic empowerment sought was in its infant stages in which the Negroes HAD to assimilate, but because of the resurgence of Afrikan (or shall we say, more balanced/BETTER) ways of doing things, i think we have a lot more options.

In the book _Black Economics_ (i'll get the author later) the writer speaks of the collective pulling of money much like foreign gruops that start businesses here. The focus was on afrikan systems of peopel pulling their resources and directing it towards one members' venture and going around the circle with each member, effectively keeping the money in the community and continuing communal traditions.

We could go on and on about how black people have adopted american ways of spending and materialism, but i feel that the economic success should not be gained at the expense of solving some of the problems associated with the economic successes associated with europeans here. Otherwise the cycle starts again. But i feel you, we are still early in development.

Damn, I didn't expect us to agree on anything

In any event, I also picked my field because it was one I liked and yes, I could make significant money and connections. I really wanted to major in History, but Mama said: "You can take history electives and read history books in your spare time, study something you can build economic strength in and gain some influence that could help not only your family, but other people as well. Look at what your father is able to do"

As usual, Mama was right

All I had to do was look at pops and see the contributions & knowledge he could make to community centers and help those with less, and the answer was clear.

This is something I feel is missing amongst young Blacks, how many of us knew Brothas/Sistas in college who spoke often of using their Degree to help people back home, and then majored in English/Sociology/Anthropology/African American studies? I'm not trying to diss any of those degrees per se, but those aren't the majors to pick if you want to help your family with its economic issues.

A lot of Jews and East Indians I know/knew would pick careers based on how much money they could make. They wouldn't pick things they hated, but they usually didn't pick things that didn't bring in cash. I think we want to help our people in particularly our families, but we don't have the guidance to point towards careers that can help us do that.

I think this (particularly with East Indians) speaks to a level of sacrifice and committment to increasing economic strength, that sad to say isn't as present in the Black Community. I have an older East Indian colleague, whose family was very very poor growing up, but they sacrificed and put him through school to become a software engineer, because that was a field he could make some serious loot in. What he neccessarily wanted to do didn't really matter, it was what he could to help his peeps. Now he's making big $ and he has helped his family out of poverty and helped other family members get educated and mostly to help themselves.

Turns out he loves his career, but that's just a bonus..the real value was in helping the fam.

I think Blacks also need to learn how to pool our money AND how to put it to good use. Blacks don't realize the power of our money and when we have it, we don't realize how to really use it. I think the attitude often is, so & so Rapper, Athlete has loot and he still gets hassled, so what's the value in the money? We still have no power and I'm middle class, so where is the power that comes with the money? I think we don't realize that once you get the money, you have to use it wisely to realize any power benefit.

Another thing to consider is that as more and more Blacks become economic forces in this country, it will be easier for us to link up and help one another. It's very easy for my Jewish and East Indian Business Associates to work together, because they often run into each other during the course of doing Business. Especially when dealing with East Indians in IT or Jews involved in Business in general.

Finally, I think Blacks need to learn the value of having a "side gig" a little something on the side that generates capital for investment and/or to help them through tough times. I learned this from my father, because even though his primary job was always more then enough to provide for everything and he made a point of living below his means (another lesson) he always had a side gig. Maybe it was buying houses on the cheap that he could get for back taxes or next to nothing and fixing it up, maybe it was consulting, but he always had something.

I do the same thing, I have a side consulting company I run in addition to my primary consulting gig. So in a downturn (like know) where I'm between projects, I focus more energy towards the side gig and I don't have to worry about paying the bills or dipping into my savings.

The point is that part of building economic strength is to always have a plan B, C, D, E & F so that the problems of life don't derail you.

During the course of my life, I've met people of all Races who had managed to build significant economic strength. The thing they had in common wasn't where they worked, or their professions (Doctors, Lawyers, Mailman, Prison Guards, Armed Forces, Teachers) but how they approached it. Live below your means, invest, have something on the side. It's a simple formula.

Total Agreement with Solarus (gasp) that you need to feed the stomach before you feed the soul.

As for European problems that come with capitalism, I don't think capitalism isn't a European concept in the least, Blacks had capitalist enterprises long before the Europeans did. I do feel that overspending (a side effect of capitalism) is an American concept (just judging by how my friends/relatives from Europe spend their money, compared to how Americans do). I do feel that excessive Greed, taking advantage of the Weak and other ways that people build money by screwing over others, is a distinctly human trait. Throughout history man has sought to hurt his neighboor for material gain.

I think it's important to remember this as we move forward, just because you adopt a "non-european outlook" or embrace non european ideals or cultural ideas, doesn't mean your immune from falling into the trap of Greed.

Because that's the real issue, Excessive Greed....that's when capitalism goes to far.

Anyway, enough rambling.....like you said, we have far to go.



Peace,





M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

>Live below your means, invest, have something on the side. It's a simple formula.

living below your means is so key...
investing, can be hard when you are broke, but living below your means can make it easier to begin
something on side, will stop you from losing you effing mind when ish don't go right at your primary job.
something on the side, will help keep your main gig in perspective as part of something bigger in your life instead of it being the point of your life

good advice.

**********THE SIG**********

"If you don't get it, why Outkast is so dope, then accept the fact that you may never understand why. And move on to a group that fits your likes and social situation better"
-bananaman

"the matrix is a system...that system is our enemy. when you're inside, when you look around, what do you see? businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters, the very minds of the people we are trying to save. until we do, these people are still a part of that sysytem, and that makes them our enemy. but you have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged...they are so helplessly dependent on the system, they will fight tooth and nail to protect it...anyone we haven't unplugged is potentially an agent. inside the matrix, they are everyone, and they are no one. we have survived by hiding from them and by running from them. but they are the gatekeepers. they are guarding all the doors, they are holding all the keys. which means that sooner or later, someone is going to have to fight them."
-morpheus

We have to play two fences.
We have to continue to strive in the current system of economics in this country. We do have to be the BEST in our careers and business. We can not limit our businesses to just our community, in order to grow.
At the same time we MUST, continue to invest in our community, invest in OUR businesses, invest in establising a economical cycle within our community, with the goal being independence. Will that be the salvation for black people throughout the diaspora, HELL NO, will it begin to establish a fondation to begin on, YES. It has to be done with that focus, which it is not currently, instead of stripping our people for individual gains, the Western way, investing and developing in our people to build a stronger community, thats AFRIKAN, and the goal that should not just be talked about but established...

peace...

oh I got a post...

https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

I agree with M2. Money is power. Not needing anybody's approval to live the way you choose to is power; you need money to do that.

I also agree with Uta though. It's dangerous to see wealth as the ONLY source of power. If you do them you end up like the people who opress us now - opressing others coz you want to keep the whole cake to yourself!

-----I'm feeling this!--------------

Mediocrity is self inflicted and genius is self bestowed...Walter Russell

"Some patients mistakenly believe that their loneliness is a product of another person's absence"...a psychology book I don't know the name of

i thought ideas were power...another saying is that "ideas make money, good ideas make LOTS of money."

the ability to rally troops to move at your command has nothing to do with money. like in the movie GLADIAOTR (yeah, yeah, its a weak example but i haven't had my apple juice yet)

montgomery bus boycott, there's an HBO movie about this event and it amazed me at what they did when confronted with violence and they got the job done with no major money. carpooling when rides were desperately needed (idea not money). walking for months instead of riding the buses (idea not money). overall non-violence instead of wrath (idea of compassion vs. violence). ideas are the essence of any system/ideology/culture. economics are just a projection of those ideas.

ideas of communal living leads to cooperative economics...likewise ideas of capitalism (in the american context)leads to hightened individualism. even on the physical/lowest level, money is nothing but paper. ideas and perception are power.

MY FAVORITE DEFINITION: "Power is the ability to define reality"

...say black people were only spendinginvesting money into lack businesses. with the same amount of money generated as there is right now, the gains of only spending money in black owned/ operated/ran businesses would be:

1)increased awareness of what industries are lacking in the black community, and thus money would be directed towards those venues. RESULT: even more black owned businesses providing the things that we used to look elsewhere for

2)endless circulation of money WITHIN the community. banks and other finacial institutions would have their profits going towards the community instead of away. RESULT: beginnings of self-sustained system

3)economic and political influence within the larger arena of this nation and abroad. interests of the community and voices that would otherwise be go unheard would be recognized.

Notice that with this idea, which could very well be in place now, economic policy will shape naturally. ideas are the driving force behind moeny, always.

>2)endless circulation of money WITHIN the
>community. banks and other finacial
>institutions would have their profits
>going towards the community instead
>of away. RESULT: beginnings of
>self-sustained system

No economic system can be self-sustained, in fact nothing can be self sustained...it goes against the laws of Thermodynamics

However, there is nothing wrong with essense of this idea. But we need to remember to add one wrinkle (a pet peeve of mine - because no one from Tavis Smiley to Black Enterprise EVER says this) It is not enough to build Black Businesses, that cater to Blacks and have Black customers and are only in Black communities. In fact, it's far from enough. The problem in the Black community is that there isn't enough wealth in the first place, SO we have to CREATE wealth and by going to other sources to bring it into our communities.

What does this mean? Two things 1. Investing, playing the markets. Grabbing a piece of the Wealth pie largely held by Whites and bringing it into our communities. 2. Building strong businesses that compete for everyone's dollar, again bringing in wealth/cash from the larger mostly white community and bringing it home.

Look at the Jews, they sell products/goods/services to everyone and then they bring the money into their own communities and increase the total pool of money, then they start passing it around, while others continue to bring in new money.

Another way to look at it, is to think of a community with 10 million dollars which gets passed around. Wealth will be created when say 500k of 600k on deposit with a bank, gets lend out to someone (that's one way weath is created, because the depositor still has that money, as does the seller/vendor who received the money from the borrower) BUT, it's slower and we're still trying to build with the same money. HOWEVER, if we bring in 5,000/year from outside sources...we'll build wealth MUCH faster and you won't get a case where you hit a limit of what you can do with those limited funds...as the money gets spread too thin.




>
>3)economic and political influence within the
>larger arena of this nation
>and abroad. interests of the
>community and voices that would
>otherwise be go unheard would
>be recognized.

See above......gotta bring in money from all sources.



Peace,





M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

Yes, but what about when you do all of those things, namely, banking at a Black-owned bank, in a Black community, then a Black man turns around and ROBS the bank?(This actually happened at the Black-owned bank down the street from Meharry in Nashville) Then, we are back at square One, because surely that Black robber is not taking that money from the bank only to re-circulate it into Black-owned businesses.
>
>
>2)endless circulation of money WITHIN the
>community. banks and other finacial
>institutions would have their profits
>going towards the community instead
>of away. RESULT: beginnings of
>self-sustained system
>
>3)economic and political influence within the
>larger arena of this nation
>and abroad. interests of the
>community and voices that would
>otherwise be go unheard would
>be recognized.
>
>Notice that with this idea, which
>could very well be in
>place now, economic policy will
>shape naturally. ideas are the
>driving force behind moeny, always.
>


"Don't Hate the PLAYA Boy...hate the GAME," Granddad Freeman of the Boondocks(7-11-99)

*Twenty-three percent of women are "autoerotic singles" — they prefer to achieve sexual satisfaction alone(source-bet.com)

*If U have won a Grammy, one of two things are at play: 1. Your shit is TIGHT
2. U are white

-(Me)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Oooo baby I like it raw. Oooo baby I like it RAAAW!(c)ODB- Shimmy Shimmy Ya

the frequncy of bank robberies and the small amount of impact it has, won't make a difference. plus these things would be taken into account as it does within any community.

(((((PEACE)))))
________________________________________________________________
"Adversity causes some men to break, others to break records." -Anonymous

"Pain is weakness leaving the body." -A Navy SEALS Saying

"Fall seven times, stand up eight." -Japanese Proverb

"The conciousness of self is the greatest hindrance to the proper execution of all physical action." -Bruce Lee

in Nashville. The robbery had a significant impact on the finances of that bank. I think it is important for us to consider such crimes that we commit against each other, that work towards the detriment of the group. Like when we riot in anger, but tear up our OWN neighborhoods(e.g. Watts, Rodney King, and now Cincy, I S'pose). What sense does THAT make?


"Don't Hate the PLAYA Boy...hate the GAME," Granddad Freeman of the Boondocks(7-11-99)

*Twenty-three percent of women are "autoerotic singles" — they prefer to achieve sexual satisfaction alone(source-bet.com)

*If U have won a Grammy, one of two things are at play: 1. Your shit is TIGHT
2. U are white
-(Me)

"'Cuz U answer the phone 'peace' that means U not a freak?"-The Questions(c) Common

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Oooo baby I like it raw. Oooo baby I like it RAAAW!(c)ODB- Shimmy Shimmy Ya

>
>What's the biggest problem Most Blacks
>face?
>
>POVERTY!

Racism

>Which leads to crime, poor schools,
>shattered families, makes Blacks Vulnerable
>to opression, etc.
>

Every group faces poverty it's racism that makes poverty hurt our community more than say a white community.

>
>Booker T wasn't wrong, and this
>isn't a matter of saying...economic
>empowerment didn't work, because it's
>far to early to make
>that pronouncement. Are Blacks the
>wealthiest group in America? Are
>the the vast majority of
>Blacks Affluent? No, so how
>can we pronounce this idea
>as not being a valid
>method of liberation?
>
>Looking at Booker T's time, how
>many Blacks actually achieved economic
>success? Not many. How about
>now? Well since Whites still
>make more money then us
>(on average) and typically have
>a higher net worth, over
>Blacks making the same money,
>I'd say we haven't even
>reached economic success (as a
>people) yet.
>
>In other words, it's the 4th
>inning, we're losing 3-2 and
>you want to pull the
>pitcher even though two of
>those runs were on errors.

Actually I think the numbers are the same. If I recall correctly I think it was Charles Olgatree<sp> or Claude Anderson that said the same number(talented tenth) of Blacks at the top now is the same number that was at the top back then.

>
>In other words, it's too soon
>to tell.
>
>Furthermore, how do you define liberation?
>To me it means that
>people may hate you, but
>they can't eff with you
>and if they do, you
>make em' pay. Well, that's
>not going to happen in
>this country until Blacks get
>ahold of some more economic
>power. It should be obvious
>to any of us that
>money runs this country, if
>politicians were going to groups
>of wealthy Blacks for campaign
>funds and these Brothas &
>Sistas would call in those
>favors when a Black Man
>was unneccessarily shot in the
>street, things would change around
>this land of ours.

While I do agree that money runs this country and economic power will help Blacks I don't trust politicans. How many politicans that need a white majority to win are going help Blacks at the expense of their white majority? Just look at the Natives that were giving money to politicans, how much did it help them,or the way the Democrats have become more Republican.

>
>However, Liberation also means that you
>escape from a situation that
>someone else defined for you.
>Poverty is generational, so is
>lack of education and disenfranchisement.
>Blacks were put in a
>poverty situation by Slavery, Racism
>and Jim Crow. Well, I'm
>not poor, no one opresses
>me. I make more $
>then my white friends from
>college.....and they're professionals just like
>me. So what if my
>neighboors hate me, so what
>if Co-workers do......they aren't preventing
>me from living my life.

They can though. Look at what Ward Connerly is doing and Clarence Thomas. Money or no money this will affect your kids and grandkids.

>
>Granted I get profiled, calling folk
>to rent a house is
>a pain because people hear
>my name and think "oh
>my god, a negro" and
>let's face it living as
>a Black Man in America
>is stressful. People can still
>eff with us.......but not as
>much as they could to
>our fathers.....and our sons will
>face less. As more and
>more Blacks achieve economic success
>and basically take our piece
>of the pie, we'll be
>in less of a position
>to be opressed and that's
>the point of economic empowerment.

We are still getting shot dead in the street, still denied access to capital, upper education, and equal justice in the courts.

>
>
>Recognizing history is important in terms
>of seeing where we've come
>from and how getting control
>of our economics is still
>a priority. But it's short
>sighted to pronounce dead the
>theory of economic empowerment being
>important, particularly when we have
>a generation of Brothas who
>feel that slinging rock is
>the only way they can
>survive financially and in light
>of how far we have
>to go.
>
>This comes down to Quality of
>life, that of a poor
>man worrying about the Bills
>and if his sons will
>make it until their 18th
>Birthdays. OR a man worrying
>about whether or not his
>kids will get into their
>first choice colleges and where
>to vacation that year. The
>wealthier man can also focus
>more energy on helping the
>less fortunate and making a
>change in this country, which
>he will do when he
>meets with his political action
>group to bribe I mean
>donate money to politicians.
>
>That's the other thing, Blacks need
>to learn how to use
>their money too.
>
>Look at the Jews, people hate
>them almost as much as
>they hate us. But who
>gets effed with the least?
>

Jews are working with the same people who hate them almost as much as us.

>
>I rest my case.


If economic empowerment is the solution then what happen to Blacks when they had economic empowerment in Tulsa OK, Roswood, and Durham? They were still at the mercy of whites. Wealth did not save them.



"I must warn you, ma'am, that people invariably flee the room when I walk in because I'm from Levittown"

"And what a spectacular act of noblesse oblige on her part to escort the lowly Levittowner around Washington on Inauguration Day!"

"If one were sufficiently paranoid, one might easily misinterpret a decision to go get seconds on that chicken hash as a deliberate insult to the municipality of Levittown."

"Close examination of the guest list reveals many other guests with backgrounds more humble than Bill O'Reilly's. Yes, even more humble than an accountant's son from Levittown. We can only hope that they didn't take offense when O'Reilly himself departed."

I'm working-class Irish American Bill O'Reilly … pretty far down the social totem pole," he says. Growing up in the 1960s, he watched his father "exhausting himself commuting from Levittown" to work as an accountant for an oil company. Dad "never made more than $35,000"—which would be $100,000 or more in today's money

If economic empowerment is the solution then what happen to Blacks when they had economic empowerment in Tulsa OK, Roswood, and Durham? They were still at the mercy of whites. Wealth did not save them.

money without power is useless...the US has a descent economy but it still has the largest military force ever known to man just in case...




(((((SCENE FROM AMISTAD)))))

Baldwin(white man): "I said it! I said it! But I shouldn't have. Now what I should have said..."

Translator: "I can't translate that. I can't translate SHOULD."

Roger Baldwin: "You mean there's no word in Mende for SHOULD?"

Translator: "No, either you do something or you don't don't do it."

Roger Baldwin: "What I said to you before the judgment is ALMOST how it works, ALMOST..."

Cinqué (Sengbe): "What kind of place is this?!? Where you almost mean what you say?!? Where laws almost work?!? How can you live like this?!?"

(((((PEACE)))))

"I must warn you, ma'am, that people invariably flee the room when I walk in because I'm from Levittown"

"And what a spectacular act of noblesse oblige on her part to escort the lowly Levittowner around Washington on Inauguration Day!"

"If one were sufficiently paranoid, one might easily misinterpret a decision to go get seconds on that chicken hash as a deliberate insult to the municipality of Levittown."

"Close examination of the guest list reveals many other guests with backgrounds more humble than Bill O'Reilly's. Yes, even more humble than an accountant's son from Levittown. We can only hope that they didn't take offense when O'Reilly himself departed."

I'm working-class Irish American Bill O'Reilly … pretty far down the social totem pole," he says. Growing up in the 1960s, he watched his father "exhausting himself commuting from Levittown" to work as an accountant for an oil company. Dad "never made more than $35,000"—which would be $100,000 or more in today's money

>>
>>What's the biggest problem Most Blacks
>>face?
>>
>>POVERTY!
>
>Racism

If you look at the day to day problems a lot of Blacks face, particularly poor ones, poverty is the problem that makes them easier to oppress in the first place. It's also the problem that's probably the most pressing in their daily lives.




>>Which leads to crime, poor schools,
>>shattered families, makes Blacks Vulnerable
>>to opression, etc.
>>
>
>Every group faces poverty it's racism
>that makes poverty hurt our
>community more than say a
>white community.

No argument here, I just think that if you can't feed your kids, poverty is your biggest concern.




>Actually I think the numbers are the same. If I recall >correctly I think it was Charles Olgatree<sp> or Claude >Anderson that said the same number(talented tenth) of Blacks at >the top now is the same number that was at the top back then.

That kinda proves that we're still in the 4th inning, if only 10% of Blacks are at the top or economically successful....then we need to take care of the other 90%.

If 60-80% of Blacks were economically successful and there was still no change in the racial dynamics of this country....THEN I'd call Booker T. a failure.


>While I do agree that money
>runs this country and economic
>power will help Blacks I
>don't trust politicans. How many
>politicans that need a white
>majority to win are going
>help Blacks at the expense
>of their white majority? Just
>look at the Natives that
>were giving money to politicans,
>how much did it help
>them,or the way the Democrats
>have become more Republican.


I don't neccessarily disagree with you, however I do think that strategic use of economic power in politics still has value.




>They can though. Look at what
>Ward Connerly is doing and
>Clarence Thomas. Money or no
>money this will affect your
>kids and grandkids.

True, but perhaps economic strength can shield them and/or I can do something to put a stop to this nonsense.

>We are still getting shot dead
>in the street, still denied
>access to capital, upper education,
>and equal justice in the
>courts.

Who do the cops shoot? Poor Blacks in poor neighboorhoods that no one is paying attention to. They prey on the powerless and those who cannot fight back. Ditto for Justice, it's easy to screw over a Brotha in court when he's got a lazy Public Defender defendin his but, as opposed to a good lawyer his family hired.

Education is such an economic issue it's not even funny. I went from an afluent high school to a Blue collar one due to my family moving and I saw that first hand. When you see working class friends who are brilliant, go to so/so schools (if at all) because that's what they aspire to (or believe they can do) while mediocre friends from affluent families go to excellent schools and end up making more then your poor friends parents fresh out of college....despite being well...idiots....you see the power of economics in education.

I read an Article in Forbes today that showed how kids born into Wealthier families do better on their SATs. Could be a 2-300 point difference depending on your parents income. That could be the difference between one of the top 25 schools in the nation and a so/so state school.

As for Capital it's about working the system, so maybe that's not neccessarily an economic issue, but a knowledge one.

It works like this, when you apply for a loan they look at your credit and income. Based on scoring algorithms they come up with an assessment that the lender uses to determine the size of your loan. However, you may get downgraded depending on your personal situation. I.e. If you're a free lance worker, they may downgrade you, if they don't think that your Business model is all that great, they may downgrade you.

On the other hand, you have "credit repair" you have so/so credit. But you haven't missed a payment in a year, or you need the car to go to work, or you work for a Pharmaceutical company, so the know you'll probably always be employed.

The point is that there is a lot of room for Loan officers to eff you over. So you need to learn how to work the system so that they can't do that isht. One way is to apply for loans over the phone or online, another way is to pull your credit report 6 months before you plan on getting the loan so you can make sure it's tight.

The point is that there are ways around all that isht, you just need to know what to do.



>Jews are working with the same
>people who hate them almost
>as much as us.

I wouldn't be surprised if they hated Jews more, but Jews have such a strong financial base that they don't eff with em. I don't care if people hate me, just if they eff with me.


>If economic empowerment is the solution
>then what happen to Blacks
>when they had economic empowerment
>in Tulsa OK, Roswood, and
>Durham? They were still
>at the mercy of whites.
>Wealth did not save them.
>

They had money but NO power, what good does money do you in a society where you have no rights or any real power outside of your immediate surroundings?

This is what I'm talking about, Blacks need to build economic strength, wield that strength and develop a formidable presence is all aspects of society: Social, Economic & Political. That is how we can protect ourselves from things like this.




Peace,






M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

>>>
>>>What's the biggest problem Most Blacks
>>>face?
>>>
>>>POVERTY!
>>
>>Racism
>
>If you look at the day
>to day problems a lot
>of Blacks face, particularly poor
>ones, poverty is the problem
>that makes them easier to
>oppress in the first place.
>It's also the problem that's
>probably the most pressing in
>their daily lives.


Blacks can escape poverty. How much does poverty effect middle class and upper class Blacks? Racism is there everyday all day no matter how much money you have.

>
>
>
>>>Which leads to crime, poor schools,
>>>shattered families, makes Blacks Vulnerable
>>>to opression, etc.
>>>
>>
>>Every group faces poverty it's racism
>>that makes poverty hurt our
>>community more than say a
>>white community.
>
>No argument here, I just think
>that if you can't feed
>your kids, poverty is your
>biggest concern.


Who can't feed their family when you have WIC and all the other programs not to mention jobs?

>
>
>
>>Actually I think the numbers are the same. If I recall >correctly I think it was Charles Olgatree<sp> or Claude >Anderson that said the same number(talented tenth) of Blacks at >the top now is the same number that was at the top back then.
>
>That kinda proves that we're still
>in the 4th inning, if
>only 10% of Blacks are
>at the top or economically
>successful....then we need to take
>care of the other 90%.

How long do we stay in a inning. During a baseball game eventually you get to the last inning and the game is over.

>
>
>If 60-80% of Blacks were economically
>successful and there was still
>no change in the racial
>dynamics of this country....THEN I'd
>call Booker T. a failure.


Given the increased attacks on Blacks anytime we make gains I doubt we will see numbers that high. Is that the percentage for Asians, Jews and other groups smaller than whites?

>
>
>>While I do agree that money
>>runs this country and economic
>>power will help Blacks I
>>don't trust politicans. How many
>>politicans that need a white
>>majority to win are going
>>help Blacks at the expense
>>of their white majority? Just
>>look at the Natives that
>>were giving money to politicans,
>>how much did it help
>>them,or the way the Democrats
>>have become more Republican.
>
>
>I don't neccessarily disagree with you,
>however I do think that
>strategic use of economic power
>in politics still has value.


Locally it has value, I can't see any value on a national level.

>
>
>
>
>>They can though. Look at what
>>Ward Connerly is doing and
>>Clarence Thomas. Money or no
>>money this will affect your
>>kids and grandkids.
>
>True, but perhaps economic strength can
>shield them and/or I can
>do something to put a
>stop to this nonsense.


True

>
>>We are still getting shot dead
>>in the street, still denied
>>access to capital, upper education,
>>and equal justice in the
>>courts.
>
>Who do the cops shoot? Poor
>Blacks in poor neighboorhoods that
>no one is paying attention
>to. They prey on the
>powerless and those who cannot
>fight back. Ditto for Justice,
>it's easy to screw over
>a Brotha in court when
>he's got a lazy Public
>Defender defendin his but, as
>opposed to a good lawyer
>his family hired.

They also shoot undercover black cops, a teen in a car, Blacks at a costume party. Maybe they are not shooting the people who are pulled over for driving while Black but any number of those stops could turn into a death regardless of where it occurs. They prey on Blacks period. Agreed good laywer is always better than nothing BUT even a good lawyer is powerless against a corrupt racist system.

>
>Education is such an economic issue
>it's not even funny. I
>went from an afluent high
>school to a Blue collar
>one due to my family
>moving and I saw that
>first hand. When you see
>working class friends who are
>brilliant, go to so/so schools
>(if at all) because that's
>what they aspire to (or
>believe they can do) while
>mediocre friends from affluent families
>go to excellent schools and
>end up making more then
>your poor friends parents fresh
>out of college....despite being well...idiots....you
>see the power of economics
>in education.

I agree money helps when it comes to education but it's the connections with money that get kids from affluent families jobs more then the school they went to our the education they have. I've seen people who can't read get hired and promoted while people with degrees and diplomas were blocked from receiving what they earned.

>I read an Article in Forbes
>today that showed how kids
>born into Wealthier families do
>better on their SATs. Could
>be a 2-300 point difference
>depending on your parents income.
>That could be the difference
>between one of the top
>25 schools in the nation
>and a so/so state school.

I would expect kids from wealthy families to do good on the SAT but I don't think they need that to get into the top 25 schools just look at Bush. True yor income is the difference between the best schools and the average schools but I don't think the top 25 are out looking for wealthy Black kids to enroll.

>
>As for Capital it's about working
>the system, so maybe that's
>not neccessarily an economic issue,
>but a knowledge one.

You can have all the knowledge in the world and it won't be enough because it's a racist corrupt system.

>
>It works like this, when you
>apply for a loan they
>look at your credit and
>income. Based on scoring algorithms
>they come up with an
>assessment that the lender uses
>to determine the size of
>your loan. However, you may
>get downgraded depending on your
>personal situation. I.e. If you're
>a free lance worker, they
>may downgrade you, if they
>don't think that your Business
>model is all that great,
>they may downgrade you.

Do you think any of that comes into play when banks are redlining? What about when your Business model will comptete with a white business, or it might hurt a white business?

>On the other hand, you have
>"credit repair" you have so/so
>credit. But you haven't missed
>a payment in a year,
>or you need the car
>to go to work, or
>you work for a Pharmaceutical
>company, so the know you'll
>probably always be employed.
>
>The point is that there is
>a lot of room for
>Loan officers to eff you
>over. So you need to
>learn how to work the
>system so that they can't
>do that isht. One way
>is to apply for loans
>over the phone or online,
>another way is to pull
>your credit report 6 months
>before you plan on getting
>the loan so you can
>make sure it's tight.

>
>The point is that there are
>ways around all that isht,
>you just need to know
>what to do.


You can know the system left and right from beginning to end it still will not make a difference if you have a loan officer who is racist, he is not going to play by the rules even if he is aware that you know the rules.

>
>
>
>>Jews are working with the same
>>people who hate them almost
>>as much as us.
>
>I wouldn't be surprised if they
>hated Jews more, but Jews
>have such a strong financial
>base that they don't eff
>with em. I don't care
>if people hate me, just
>if they eff with me.


You need more then financial strength to stop people from effing with you, but it does help.

>
>
>>If economic empowerment is the solution
>>then what happen to Blacks
>>when they had economic empowerment
>>in Tulsa OK, Roswood, and
>>Durham? They were still
>>at the mercy of whites.
>>Wealth did not save them.
>>
>
>They had money but NO power,
>what good does money do
>you in a society where
>you have no rights or
>any real power outside of
>your immediate surroundings?


Wealth is not power? Their money did not fit the outline of what wealth is ?

>
>This is what I'm talking about,
>Blacks need to build economic
>strength, wield that strength and
>develop a formidable presence is
>all aspects of society: Social,
>Economic & Political. That is
>how we can protect ourselves
>from things like this.


I agree with economic empowerment, I just believe we can't pin all our hopes and aspirations on one thing.


http://www.tbwt.com/content/article.asp?articleid=597 A good link related to what we are dicussing.





"I must warn you, ma'am, that people invariably flee the room when I walk in because I'm from Levittown"

"And what a spectacular act of noblesse oblige on her part to escort the lowly Levittowner around Washington on Inauguration Day!"

"If one were sufficiently paranoid, one might easily misinterpret a decision to go get seconds on that chicken hash as a deliberate insult to the municipality of Levittown."

"Close examination of the guest list reveals many other guests with backgrounds more humble than Bill O'Reilly's. Yes, even more humble than an accountant's son from Levittown. We can only hope that they didn't take offense when O'Reilly himself departed."

I'm working-class Irish American Bill O'Reilly … pretty far down the social totem pole," he says. Growing up in the 1960s, he watched his father "exhausting himself commuting from Levittown" to work as an accountant for an oil company. Dad "never made more than $35,000"—which would be $100,000 or more in today's money

>Blacks can escape poverty. How much
>does poverty effect middle class
>and upper class Blacks?
>Racism is there everyday all
>day no matter how much
>money you have.

True, but I feel that poor Black people FEEL racism more then wealthier ones.


>Who can't feed their family when
>you have WIC and all
>the other programs not to
>mention jobs?

There is a significant difference between just "surviving" E.g. a Constant Struggle and "Flourishing" survival isn't a concern, the magnitude by you succeed or "Flourish" is.


>How long do we stay in
>a inning. During a baseball
>game eventually you get to
>the last inning and the
>game is over.

The fat lady has yet to sing on this game.



>>If 60-80% of Blacks were economically
>>successful and there was still
>>no change in the racial
>>dynamics of this country....THEN I'd
>>call Booker T. a failure.
>
>
>Given the increased attacks on Blacks
>anytime we make gains I
>doubt we will see numbers
>that high. Is that the
>percentage for Asians, Jews and
>other groups smaller than whites?

I don't know......I do know that with Asians, they're not as successful as their average incomes may seem. What happens is that a lot of them are doing exceedingly well and padding the numbers and "hiding" those who aren't.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if 60-80% of Jews were in the top 30-40% of this country in terms of economic success.

Regardless, I don't BELIEVE or rather I REFUSE to believe that the empowerment of Blacks can be stopped. We were never supposed to escape slavery, fly planes, escape Jim Crow, see the Civil Rights Act passed, succeed in science and Business or do any number of things that Whites said we couldn't/would never/weren't capable of doing...despite their efforts to stop us.

Blacks accomplish things on a daily basis now that even 30 years ago, Whites would scoff that we would be able to do. Just 15 years ago, it was said that "No one with a tan could get hired at American Express" E.g. No one who wasn't a wasp could get a job there, let alone work as an executive. Jan 1 a Black man took over as CEO.....another Brotha is in line to do the same at Merrill Lynch.

Small things, just TWO men after all. BUT, even 10 years ago.....a lot of people would've thought it would be impossible.

My point is that I don't believe Whites CAN stop us at this point.

>Locally it has value, I can't
>see any value on a
>national level.

Perhaps.

I suspect that we'll make the biggest impact in our local governments, move to state and then to national. BUT, right now...we just don't know.

>a teen in a car,
>Blacks at a costume
>party. Maybe they are
>not shooting the people who
>are pulled over for driving
>while Black but any number
>of those stops could turn
>into a death regardless of
>where it occurs. They prey
>on Blacks period. Agreed
>good laywer is always better
>than nothing BUT even a
>good lawyer is powerless against
>a corrupt racist system.

I really don't believe Blacks are that powerless and everyone in the system isn't corrupt, racist or even White. Furthermore, they aren't shooting enough of us or incarcerating enough of us to stop us from Advancing.

Every year on a % basis:

-More Blacks Attend College
-More Blacks graduate from college
-Blacks increase their incomes (faster then anyone else)
-The crime rate amongst Blacks goes down. (faster then anyone else - just proving the links between economics and crime)

Racist White America doesn't want this isht to happen, but we do it anyway.

They can shoot us, put us in jail, beat us, oppress us, deny us access......but it just delays the inevitable.

>I agree money helps when it
>comes to education but it's
>the connections with money that
>get kids from affluent families
>jobs more then the school
>they went to our the
>education they have. I've seen
>people who can't read get
>hired and promoted while people
>with degrees and diplomas were
>blocked from receiving what they
>earned.

Be careful with the definition of Affluent. Affluent (to me) means family income greater then 80K, which puts you in the top 20% of families in the country.

A lot of these families don't have connections, will need financial aid to pay for school (and/or loans) and get into colleges on their own merits. BUT, they push their kids harder, their kids have the example of their parents to follow, they take SAT study courses starting as High School Freshman. I took the PSAT as a sophmore, at my high school.....they didn't really give you a choice.

In any event, I grew up around these kids.....they don't have it that easy. It's the rare few that get everything handed to them. I've seen that too......like this guy at my job who makes 300k+ and is an idiot and everyone knows it. We have to compensate for him sometimes and it's ridiculous, it basically takes 2 people to do his job...Him and someone else to cover for him.

I suspect his Dad invested in the company to get it going.

But, the rest of the employees are working their asses off......people like him are in the minority.


>I would expect kids from wealthy
>families to do good on
>the SAT but I don't
>think they need that to
>get into the top 25
>schools just look at Bush.
> True yor income is
>the difference between the best
>schools and the average schools
>but I don't think the
>top 25 are out looking
>for wealthy Black kids to
>enroll.
>

Significant difference between the top 20% of wage earners and someone like Bush (less then 1% of the population) a lot of those people work for what they get....they have a "boost" because of their families, but they still have to work for it. I've seen what it takes for a kid of family making 80k or even as high as 400k to get into a top school. The well heeled AND well connected are very few.


>You can have all the knowledge
>in the world and it
>won't be enough because it's
>a racist corrupt system.

Not everyone in it is corrupt and they can only delay us, not stop us.




>Do you think any of that
>comes into play when banks
>are redlining? What about when
>your Business model will comptete
>with a white business, or
>it might hurt a white
>business?

Redling isn't the Racist tactic people make it out to be, (particularly since it happens to poor whites just as often) basically a Bank decides that it's no longer profitable to operate a Branch in a community where:

#1. People don't invest

#2. People don't maintain high Balances in their accounts

#3. People have no use for asset management services

#4. Most people are renting, and aren't going to be taking out a Mortgage.

The above 4 things I mentioned are a Banks Bread-N-Butter.....and are not prevalant in poor communities. I live in an area that is fairly well off and there are about 20 Banks in a 3-5 minute radius from here and it seems like they open new ones all the time.

About 8 - 10 miles west of here, begins the Wayne - Wynnewood wealth strip of the philly metro area. There are even more banks there, it seems like there are 4 on every square Block.

Anyway, the point is that Banks go to where they can make money.

I've seen Bank lending from the inside and the Business Model thing isn't likely to happen for the following reasons:

-Banks are looking at YOU when you're trying to get a loan. They don't compare Business Models (nor do they have time to) the environment is too fast paced to start comparing a new applicant to other Businesses, particularly on a race basis.

-What usually happens is that a bank has to make a judgement call on a loan. So of course, their natural prejudices come into play. They may not be specifically out to get you, but their prejudices tells them that you're not capable enough to succeed and make enough money to pay them back.

-Banks give loans to competing businesses all the time.

-Lending Works Like This: They WANT to lend people money, after all it's how they make money, it's how the bank's employees get bonuses. TO not lend Money to qualified people would take money out of their pockets. BUT, racist/prejudiced people don't believe you CAN pay the money back, others may just want to screw you. BUT, the former is what happens in most cases.

With VCs or private investors, they aren't going to invest in a Business that competes against a Business they've already funded/invested in. It wouldn't make sense Business Wise. You're basically going to lose money on one and make it on the other, better to just make money on the one...UNLESS the compete on a level that is actually better for both Businesses.


>You can know the system left
>and right from beginning to
>end it still will not
>make a difference if you
>have a loan officer who
>is racist, he is not
>going to play by the
>rules even if he is
>aware that you know the
>rules.

If he knows you know the rules, he may know it will be harder for him to get away with it. If you complain and say:

I had a 780 credit score
I make 150k/year
I have two years worth of tax returns, both with enough income for this loan. Or even with enough income to just buy a house....
I have a steady job & stable residence for the last year.
I was rejected

You'd have a legitamate beef and you could collect some damages and at least get the loan at a lower rate, or at the very least the loan you originally applied for. You could have less then the scenario I gave you and it's still an automatic approval.

You could also go to another Bank....after all, there is one on every corner. (depending on where you live)

You get delayed, not stopped.

>You need more then financial strength
>to stop people from effing
>with you, but it does
>help.

True, you need to do other things to. BUT, it's the foundation of those efforts (IMHO)
>Wealth is not power? Their money
>did not fit the outline
>of what wealth is ?

Wealth in of itself is not power, if I have 600 million in the Bank and don't do anything with it, I don't really have much more power then my neighboor with 6,000. BUT, if I use the fact that I have wealth to work my way into circles where I can make connections. I buy 5% of a public company and use that to get myself on the board of directors, and then use that to make more connections.

I use my position on the board to meet politicians, etc, etc.

Money in the Bank doesn't mean isht unless you use it to your advantage. Otherwise, it's latent power......not power that can wielded.


>I agree with economic empowerment, I
>just believe we can't pin
>all our hopes and aspirations
>on one thing.

Not one thing, we can do hundreds of things when we reach the level where we're economically empowered. It's just fuel, ammo, a tool. It's not the end, it's the foundation for a start.


>http://www.tbwt.com/content/article.asp?articleid=597 A good link related
>to what we are dicussing.


Thanks




Peace,




M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

>
>True, but I feel that poor
>Black people FEEL racism more
>then wealthier ones.

I agree but you asked what's the biggest problem most Blacks face? How can it be poverty if more Blacks face racism despite the degrees of racism they face.

>
>
>>Who can't feed their family when
>>you have WIC and all
>>the other programs not to
>>mention jobs?
>
>There is a significant difference between
>just "surviving" E.g. a Constant
>Struggle and "Flourishing" survival isn't
>a concern, the magnitude by
>you succeed or "Flourish" is.
>

I agree but if you can survive you can succeed and flourish. it's the first step.

>
>>How long do we stay in
>>a inning. During a baseball
>>game eventually you get to
>>the last inning and the
>>game is over.
>
>The fat lady has yet to
>sing on this game.
>

True

>
>>>If 60-80% of Blacks were economically
>>>successful and there was still
>>>no change in the racial
>>>dynamics of this country....THEN I'd
>>>call Booker T. a failure.
>>
>>
>>Given the increased attacks on Blacks
>>anytime we make gains I
>>doubt we will see numbers
>>that high. Is that the
>>percentage for Asians, Jews and
>>other groups smaller than whites?
>
>I don't know......I do know that
>with Asians, they're not as
>successful as their average incomes
>may seem. What happens is
>that a lot of them
>are doing exceedingly well and
>padding the numbers and "hiding"
>those who aren't.

That's what I've read.

>
>However, I wouldn't be surprised if
>60-80% of Jews were in
>the top 30-40% of this
>country in terms of economic
>success.


That sounds right

>
>Regardless, I don't BELIEVE or rather
>I REFUSE to believe that
>the empowerment of Blacks can
>be stopped. We were never
>supposed to escape slavery, fly
>planes, escape Jim Crow, see
>the Civil Rights Act passed,
>succeed in science and Business
>or do any number of
>things that Whites said we
>couldn't/would never/weren't capable of doing...despite
>their efforts to stop us.

I'm not suggesting that empwerment of Blacks can be stopped. I agree Blacks beat the odds every day. I believe we have to make sure we hit the right targets with the right weapon.

>
>
>Blacks accomplish things on a daily
>basis now that even 30
>years ago, Whites would scoff
>that we would be able
>to do. Just 15 years
>ago, it was said that
>"No one with a tan
>could get hired at American
>Express" E.g. No one who
>wasn't a wasp could get
>a job there, let alone
>work as an executive. Jan
>1 a Black man took
>over as CEO.....another Brotha is
>in line to do the
>same at Merrill Lynch.
>
>Small things, just TWO men after
>all. BUT, even 10 years
>ago.....a lot of people would've
>thought it would be impossible.


I'm not saying economic empowerment is impossible, I agree with it. I just think it will take more. Money runs this country but corruption and racism run this country too.

>
>
>My point is that I don't
>believe Whites CAN stop us
>at this point.

I'm not sayin Whites can stop us I just dont want to see a repeat of intergration.

>
>>Locally it has value, I can't
>>see any value on a
>>national level.
>
>Perhaps.
>
>I suspect that we'll make the
>biggest impact in our local
>governments, move to state and
>then to national. BUT, right
>now...we just don't know.


I agree, we will make an impact locally and maybe state to state but national, I just can't see it.

>
>>a teen in a car,
>>Blacks at a costume
>>party. Maybe they are
>>not shooting the people who
>>are pulled over for driving
>>while Black but any number
>>of those stops could turn
>>into a death regardless of
>>where it occurs. They prey
>>on Blacks period. Agreed
>>good laywer is always better
>>than nothing BUT even a
>>good lawyer is powerless against
>>a corrupt racist system.
>
>I really don't believe Blacks are
>that powerless and everyone in
>the system isn't corrupt, racist
>or even White. Furthermore, they
>aren't shooting enough of us
>or incarcerating enough of us
>to stop us from Advancing.

I am not trying to imply or suggest blacks are powerless. I think any lawyer or any person that is fair and out to do good will run into a brick wall when it comes to the justice system no matter what color. Everyone in the system does not have to be corrupt, racist or white for the system to be corrupt and racist. Look at the police, all it takes is a few bad cops and the blue wall of silence(whatever it's called) I'm not trying to give the impression that we can be stopped by a racist, corrupt system.

>
>
>Every year on a % basis:
>
>
>-More Blacks Attend College
>-More Blacks graduate from college
>-Blacks increase their incomes (faster then
>anyone else)
>-The crime rate amongst Blacks goes
>down. (faster then anyone else
>- just proving the links
>between economics and crime)
>
>Racist White America doesn't want this
>isht to happen, but we
>do it anyway.
>
>They can shoot us, put us
>in jail, beat us, oppress
>us, deny us access......but it
>just delays the inevitable.


True but we must make sure that we do not get misdirected.

>
>>I agree money helps when it
>>comes to education but it's
>>the connections with money that
>>get kids from affluent families
>>jobs more then the school
>>they went to our the
>>education they have. I've seen
>>people who can't read get
>>hired and promoted while people
>>with degrees and diplomas were
>>blocked from receiving what they
>>earned.
>
>Be careful with the definition of
>Affluent. Affluent (to me) means
>family income greater then 80K,
>which puts you in the
>top 20% of families in
>the country.

Yeah, I think we are defining affluent different. I would start at 150k and go up.

>
>A lot of these families don't
>have connections, will need financial
>aid to pay for school
>(and/or loans) and get into
>colleges on their own merits.
>BUT, they push their kids
>harder, their kids have the
>example of their parents to
>follow, they take SAT study
>courses starting as High School
>Freshman. I took the PSAT
>as a sophmore, at my
>high school.....they didn't really give
>you a choice.

I don't see how these families can be considered affluent if they don't have any connections and they need finacial aid to pay for school. I don't know if they push their kids harder then any other group since most parents want the best for their kids.

>
>In any event, I grew up
>around these kids.....they don't have
>it that easy. It's the
>rare few that get everything
>handed to them. I've seen
>that too......like this guy at
>my job who makes 300k+
>and is an idiot and
>everyone knows it. We have
>to compensate for him sometimes
>and it's ridiculous, it basically
>takes 2 people to do
>his job...Him and someone else
>to cover for him.

I have seen just the opposite. I remember watching kids from families who were not even near the 80k getting jobs, promotions and raises because they went to church with someone or they had a friend on the job. Some guys got loans and bought land because they knew so and so. This was the norm. The Blacks who worked hard as temps were dissed. Now if this is going on under the 80k you can imagine what's going on at 80k and above.

>
>I suspect his Dad invested in
>the company to get it
>going.
>
>But, the rest of the employees
>are working their asses off......people
>like him are in the
>minority.

Not from the experience I had and based on what others told me.

>
>>I would expect kids from wealthy
>>families to do good on
>>the SAT but I don't
>>think they need that to
>>get into the top 25
>>schools just look at Bush.
>> True yor income is
>>the difference between the best
>>schools and the average schools
>>but I don't think the
>>top 25 are out looking
>>for wealthy Black kids to
>>enroll.
>>
>
>Significant difference between the top 20%
>of wage earners and someone
>like Bush (less then 1%
>of the population) a lot
>of those people work for
>what they get....they have a
>"boost" because of their families,
>but they still have to
>work for it. I've seen
>what it takes for a
>kid of family making 80k
>or even as high as
>400k to get into a
>top school. The well heeled
>AND well connected are very
>few.


Well that goes back to defining affluent. I see it as more than 80k since that could indicate you have two people earning 40k a piece. I don't see how a kid from a family with 400k would have a hard time getting in a top school when all his family has to do is throw some money the schools way. I don't think rich alumnis have any problem getting their kids in.

>
>
>>You can have all the knowledge
>>in the world and it
>>won't be enough because it's
>>a racist corrupt system.
>
>Not everyone in it is corrupt
>and they can only delay
>us, not stop us.

I'm not saying the corrupt system will stop us. I'm saying it will take more then working the system to beat it. Everyone does not have to be corrupt for the system to be corrupt. Most whistle blowers catch more hell then the people or system they exposed

>
>
>
>>Do you think any of that
>>comes into play when banks
>>are redlining? What about when
>>your Business model will comptete
>>with a white business, or
>>it might hurt a white
>>business?
>
>Redling isn't the Racist tactic people
>make it out to be,
>(particularly since it happens to
>poor whites just as often)
>basically a Bank decides that
>it's no longer profitable to
>operate a Branch in a
>community where:

I disagree. It may happen to poor whites just as often as Blacks(although I have not seen anything that indicates that it does) but it does not happen to middle class Whites as much as it does to middle class Blacks. I doubt it's profits alone that cause a Bank to close a Branch, they use that as an excuse to avoid getting caught by the Community Reinvestment Act, if they don't have a branch open they don't have to worry about the violating the Act.


>
>#1. People don't invest
>
>#2. People don't maintain high Balances
>in their accounts
>
>#3. People have no use for
>asset management services
>
>#4. Most people are renting, and
>aren't going to be taking
>out a Mortgage.
>
>The above 4 things I mentioned
>are a Banks Bread-N-Butter.....and are
>not prevalant in poor communities.
>I live in an area
>that is fairly well off
>and there are about 20
>Banks in a 3-5 minute
>radius from here and it
>seems like they open new
>ones all the time.

Yeah but redlining was found in middle class Black communities too. I've seen alot of banks in a Black neighborhood too but I didn't see any investment in the neighborhood.

>About 8 - 10 miles west
>of here, begins the Wayne
>- Wynnewood wealth strip of
>the philly metro area. There
>are even more banks there,
>it seems like there are
>4 on every square Block.


I've seen plenty of banks in Black communities but that's not enough if they are rejecting Black loan applicants. I've seen people trying to develop some property and start a business but they were denied while the white community can't open new business fast enough.

>
>
>Anyway, the point is that Banks
>go to where they can
>make money.

If they are doing that then they must have just changed recently. I've seen information out there that says different. Banks had to be pressured by the govenrment,embrassed by the media, and forced by laws passed by Congress to treat Black communities equally.

>I've seen Bank lending from the
>inside and the Business Model
>thing isn't likely to happen
>for the following reasons:

I used the business model thing, because you said " if they don't think that your Business model is all that great, they may downgrade you"

>
>-Banks are looking at YOU when
>you're trying to get a
>loan. They don't compare Business
>Models (nor do they have
>time to) the environment is
>too fast paced to start
>comparing a new applicant to
>other Businesses, particularly on a
>race basis.

In a big city they may not have enough time but in smaller cities they do.

>
>-What usually happens is that a
>bank has to make a
>judgement call on a loan.
>So of course, their natural
>prejudices come into play. They
>may not be specifically out
>to get you, but their
>prejudices tells them that you're
>not capable enough to succeed
>and make enough money to
>pay them back.

I've seen a Bank president loan money to a white busniess man he knew was in trouble.

>
>-Banks give loans to competing businesses
>all the time.


True

>
>-Lending Works Like This: They WANT
>to lend people money, after
>all it's how they make
>money, it's how the bank's
>employees get bonuses. TO not
>lend Money to qualified people
>would take money out of
>their pockets. BUT, racist/prejudiced people
>don't believe you CAN pay
>the money back, others may
>just want to screw you.
>BUT, the former is what
>happens in most cases.

If this was true,banks want to lend people money, why would Congress have to pass laws to make them?

>
>With VCs or private investors, they
>aren't going to invest in
>a Business that competes against
>a Business they've already funded/invested
>in. It wouldn't make sense
>Business Wise. You're basically going
>to lose money on one
>and make it on the
>other, better to just make
>money on the one...UNLESS the
>compete on a level that
>is actually better for both
>Businesses.

Private investors and venture capatalist are different from banks and I can understand that.

>
>
>>You can know the system left
>>and right from beginning to
>>end it still will not
>>make a difference if you
>>have a loan officer who
>>is racist, he is not
>>going to play by the
>>rules even if he is
>>aware that you know the
>>rules.
>
>If he knows you know the
>rules, he may know it
>will be harder for him
>to get away with it.
>If you complain and say:

Complain to who?

>
>
>I had a 780 credit score
>
>I make 150k/year
>I have two years worth of
>tax returns, both with enough
>income for this loan. Or
>even with enough income to
>just buy a house....
>I have a steady job &
>stable residence for the last
>year.
>I was rejected
>
>You'd have a legitamate beef and
>you could collect some damages
>and at least get the
>loan at a lower rate,
>or at the very least
>the loan you originally applied
>for. You could have less
>then the scenario I gave
>you and it's still an
>automatic approval.

You better have a lawyer and a reporter to go along with that legitmate beef.

>
>You could also go to another
>Bank....after all, there is one
>on every corner. (depending on
>where you live)
>

I recall a guy who was trying to start a business that went to more than one bank and got nowhere.

>You get delayed, not stopped.

I never suggested Blacks would be stopped.

>
>>You need more then financial strength
>>to stop people from effing
>>with you, but it does
>>help.
>
>True, you need to do other
>things to. BUT, it's the
>foundation of those efforts (IMHO)

I think changing what Blacks believe about Blacks is the foundation.

>
>>Wealth is not power? Their money
>>did not fit the outline
>>of what wealth is ?
>
>Wealth in of itself is not
>power, if I have 600
>million in the Bank and
>don't do anything with it,
>I don't really have much
>more power then my neighboor
>with 6,000. BUT, if I
>use the fact that I
>have wealth to work my
>way into circles where I
>can make connections. I buy
>5% of a public company
>and use that to get
>myself on the board of
>directors, and then use that
>to make more connections.

I think we are defining wealth different. Based on what I read wealth is not just money but resources,assets, land, things like that. Circles and connections are good until you get outside your group then you are once again at the mercy of someone else.


>
>I use my position on the
>board to meet politicians, etc,
>etc.

Yeah but who is this politican going to worry about more the guy with skin like his or the guy with a darker complexion?

>
>Money in the Bank doesn't mean
>isht unless you use it
>to your advantage. Otherwise, it's
>latent power......not power that can
>wielded.

I think wealth is more than money in the bank.

>
>>I agree with economic empowerment, I
>>just believe we can't pin
>>all our hopes and aspirations
>>on one thing.
>
>Not one thing, we can do
>hundreds of things when we
>reach the level where we're
>economically empowered. It's just fuel,
>ammo, a tool. It's not
>the end, it's the foundation
>for a start.

I think alot of changes have to be made before you get to economic empowerment therefore I do not believe it's the foundation.

>
>
>>http://www.tbwt.com/content/article.asp?articleid=597 A good link related
>>to what we are dicussing.
>
>
>Thanks
>

Welcome



"I must warn you, ma'am, that people invariably flee the room when I walk in because I'm from Levittown"

"And what a spectacular act of noblesse oblige on her part to escort the lowly Levittowner around Washington on Inauguration Day!"

"If one were sufficiently paranoid, one might easily misinterpret a decision to go get seconds on that chicken hash as a deliberate insult to the municipality of Levittown."

"Close examination of the guest list reveals many other guests with backgrounds more humble than Bill O'Reilly's. Yes, even more humble than an accountant's son from Levittown. We can only hope that they didn't take offense when O'Reilly himself departed."

I'm working-class Irish American Bill O'Reilly … pretty far down the social totem pole," he says. Growing up in the 1960s, he watched his father "exhausting himself commuting from Levittown" to work as an accountant for an oil company. Dad "never made more than $35,000"—which would be $100,000 or more in today's money

-Wealth is the magnitude of your net worth, your net worth is your Asssets minus your debts/liabilities. So you may have 1.3 million in cash, investments and Real Estate and have 300k worth of liabilities in the form of mortgages, car loans and other forms of debt and be worth 1 million bucks.

That million is the sum of your wealth, it doesn't mean you have power though.

Neither Al Gore or George Bush is a member of the Forbes 400 list of the richest people in America, but who has more power?

According to various sources I've read, Al Gore's net worth is 400k. (e.g. his wealth) Between neighboors growing up, colleagues, parents of ex-college classmates, my mentor, friends, acquantainces.....I KNOW I can name at least 30 people with a higher net worth then that. (they're not all white either)

But none of them have a fraction of the power that Gore has. If my Mentor's daughter can't get into Princeton (her dream) then she's not going. Her parents loot and her two millionaire Uncles aren't going to help her, because they have money and no power.


Money can be used to gain power, but you don't automatically have power by being wealthy.

I grew up with people who pulled in 150k (less then 5% of the population) or more in family income, they couldn't buy their way into colleges and some them STILL needed *some* financial aid. Sometimes because they have multiple kids in college, others because their parents didn't save well, etc. Point is that, just because you make that money.....doesn't mean life will be a cakewalk.

I even know kids whose parents pulled in 400k+ (Surgeons, Lawyers, VP's in major corps, etc) and who didn't get into their first choice school and weren't able to buy their way into schools for a couple of reasons:

-Didn't have the connections

-It's not as easy as just making the money

-400k isn't enough to buy your way into a school

I did however, have classmates who did buy their way into schools. In both cases their parents were alumni, you know how they did it?

One guy's Dad built a 7 figure student center for the school, and donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to the school. He also managed to wangle his way onto the board of Trustees.

The other girl's Dad started a scholarship fund.

The point is that the option of buying one's way into school, is only available for maybe 1% of the population, if that. Your parents can make 400k, but you'd better have the grades.

Trust me, I went to high school with and lived around students who were crying their eyes out because Dad was going to be pissed that they didn't get into Princeton.

The person who can waltz through life and have things handed to them, is rare indeed.



As for Loans, I don't see Banks comparing Business plans of Black Business vs. White and not giving loans if the White Business would see competition. (since to my knowledge, they don't have them on file anyway)

Quick Note: Small Business Loans are VERY hard to get. Read any magazine aimed at Small Business Owners and you'll always see a magazine discussing how to get a loan or alternative ways of financing. The loans are difficult to acquire because when you all you have is an idea, you have no real assets for the bank to use to recoup their investment if the Business fails. (which 80% of new Businesses do) My point is that too many Black Business owners blame not being able to get a loan on Racism, when chances are they might not have gotten the loan if they were White.

There is a local company that I do technical consulting for. They've grown their revenues from 4 figures in 98, to 6 figures in 99 to 7 in 2000 and are on pace to triple 2000s numbers for this year. The company was financed through organic growth, credit cards and 2nd mortgages. Can't get a loan to save their lives. Why? No real assets. If the business crashes, all the Bank could get is maybe 40,000 in computer equipment.

The people trying to get the Loan? Two Ivy League White Guys, both of which have some connections in the local area with the top guys at companies I KNOW you'd recognize. Didn't help though.

The point is that Blacks shouldn't be so quick to Yell Racism when they don't get that Small Business Loan. For the vast majority of small Businesses, getting Bank financing isn't an option unless they can take out a loan against their house.

I just finished a 6 month consulting engagement at a Billion dollar company that did just that, they would provide High Interest 2nd mortgages to small Business Owners.

The best way to get a small Business loan is to have connections, I agree with you there. BUT, it's about connections, not color. (although you could say that Blacks have trouble making those connections because of racism) You need the connection so that you have someone in your corner that believes in you.

As for jobs, yes a lot of people get their jobs because they know someone. Hell, that's how I got mine! BUT, I don't think that's the same thing as having a connection and not having to work. The guy who hired me at my job got HIS job because he knew someone, I got MY job because I met him at a networking event and made a good impression. BUT, we still had to work our asses off. Unlike the other guy who we need to compensate for, because he's an idiot.

The point is that people who have connections and can skate by without doing any work are few and far between, at least in my experiences in Corporate America. There are people like that around, but after a certain point, if you can't cut the mustard..you're out. Even the connection doesn't always help, I interviewed a kid for a client last summer, he only got the Interview because his Dad was on the company's board and good friends with the CEO (A Fortune 100 Pharmaceutical) he sucked so we didn't hire him.

Connections only get you so far and being wealthy and white isn't the free ticket it's made out to be.

I agree with most of what you said in your post, I just think you overestimate the advantag of being White or being White and Rich.


Peace,





M2





P.S. Forgot,

Redlining:

I've seen it White Neighboorhoods too, take a look at some of the Steel towns of PA. I think the Redlining issue needs to be looked at more as a Business issue then a racial one. It is a fact that people in poor communities aren't going to be as valuable to a Bank as people in wealthier ones......and Banks are Businesses after all.

Furthermore, when you look at the sad, sad state that most Black owned Banks are in. (E.g. Carver Bank Corp, United Bank in philly) in terms of low or no profits, federal intervention because they don't have enough $ in deposits, extremely high default rates on Mortgages and Business Loans because of relaxed lending rules, etc.

It lends a lot of credence to the fact that just because a "White" bank doesn't want to operate in a Black community, doesn't mean it's racism...when you look at how Black banks fare in the same areas.

Because of things I've already discussed, I don't always think it's racism when they deny people from the community loans either. I'm not naieve enough to believe that there isn't a lot of racism, but I'm also realistic enough to realize that if you're living in a poor neighboorhood, the chances are good that you're not a good risk for a Business Loan, or maybe not even a Home Loan.

This is why Understanding the System is important, a lot of Brothas & Sistas try to get loans or start Business and get discouraged by the obstacles: Not getting financing, legal issues, etc. They may blame things on racism that are really just a part of doing Business, that would neccessarily change if they were White.

Something I'd like to do at some point, is to provide financial/Business training to Blacks from the perspective of the organizations that they're dealing with. If you can understand the mindset of the Bank you're trying to get a loan from, you're in a much better position.

If you at least know that you're getting denied because of fair, financial reasons.......then you will know what you have to do to change your situation. It may entail moving to a nicer neighboorhood so that you have a more valuable house from which to borrow against, starting the Business in a wealthier part of town so that the Bank is more confident of your ability to succeed and THEN opening an establishment in a wealthier area.

I've always wanted to open Businesses in poor Black communities that could pay a good wage and provide on job learning opportunities that people could leverage into better jobs later on in life. BUT, I would start it in a wealthier neighboorhood first and then open up a location in a Black one.....it's just easier. PLUS, if the one in the poor neighboorhood is starting slow or not doing well......I can subsidize it with the profits from the more successful one

As for investing in communities, the point of an investment is get a return. It's hard to get a bank to invest in the community if it's not going to see a return. I've observed the rejuvenation of poor neighboorhoods and I've watched my parents efforts with Community Development Organizations and I've noticed that when the Banks do make a serious attempt to invest in a community, it's usually with the help of outside organizations, (E.g. a Local Company, a local college, a private foundation, etc. AND the government.) those orgs are brought in to subsidize the investments so that the Bank sees a profit.

On a side note, I've had mixed feelings about community development because it seems to push people out of the community who can no longer afford to stay. I think those efforts need to be managed better so that all of these people are presented with the opportunity to strengthen their economics so they can stay, and the ones that do move are the ones that didn't take advantage of the opportunity.

That may be what is happening, but I'm just not sure right now.



Peace,





M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

>-Wealth is the magnitude of your
>net worth, your net worth
>is your Asssets minus your
>debts/liabilities. So you may have
>1.3 million in cash, investments
>and Real Estate and have
>300k worth of liabilities in
>the form of mortgages, car
>loans and other forms of
>debt and be worth 1
>million bucks.

That's still not the same definition I read about. The way I read it, wealth is owning a business, land, not making payments on a mortgages and car loans. Actually owning it. Your definition makes wealth powerless,because is still falls back to how many dollars you have.

>
>That million is the sum of
>your wealth, it doesn't mean
>you have power though.

That's not the same definition I read about.

>Neither Al Gore or George Bush
>is a member of the
>Forbes 400 list of the
>richest people in America, but
>who has more power?

Al and George of course, because they are politicans and their fathers were politicans. Their power comes from the offices they held. Ask the same question about someone who is not a politican but has the same amount of money they have and the answer will be the people on the Forbes 400 list.

>
>According to various sources I've read,
>Al Gore's net worth is
>400k. (e.g. his wealth) Between
>neighboors growing up, colleagues, parents
>of ex-college classmates, my mentor,
>friends, acquantainces.....I KNOW I can
>name at least 30 people
>with a higher net worth
>then that. (they're not all
>white either)

If they have no power they are doing something wrong I can name 30 people with less then 80K a year that had plenty of influence and power.

>But none of them have a
>fraction of the power that
>Gore has. If my Mentor's
>daughter can't get into Princeton
>(her dream) then she's not
>going. Her parents loot and
>her two millionaire Uncles aren't
>going to help her, because
>they have money and no
>power.

Gore was a politican and his father was too any power he has came from that so I don't think it's a fair comparison.

>
>
>Money can be used to gain
>power, but you don't automatically
>have power by being wealthy.

It may not be automatic but if you don't have any power or influence with money you are doing something wrong.

>
>
>I grew up with people who
>pulled in 150k (less then
>5% of the population)
>or more in family income,
>they couldn't buy their way
>into colleges and some them
>STILL needed *some* financial aid.
>Sometimes because they have multiple
>kids in college, others because
>their parents didn't save well,
>etc. Point is that, just
>because you make that money.....doesn't
>mean life will be a
>cakewalk.

They didn't know what they were doing, I've seen people with less than 60K pull strings, it wasn't at the top schools but they were still able to pull strings.

>
>I even know kids whose parents
>pulled in 400k+ (Surgeons, Lawyers,
>VP's in major corps, etc)
>and who didn't get into
>their first choice school and
>weren't able to buy their
>way into schools for a
>couple of reasons:
>
>-Didn't have the connections

Money without connections, sounds like they don't know what they are doing.

>
>-It's not as easy as just
>making the money

It may not be easy but it can't be that hard either based on what I've seen from people with less.

>
>-400k isn't enough to buy your
>way into a school

Maybe not a top 20 school but I'm sure it can get you in a good one.

>
>I did however, have classmates who
>did buy their way into
>schools. In both cases their
>parents were alumni, you know
>how they did it?
>
>One guy's Dad built a 7
>figure student center for the
>school, and donated hundreds of
>thousands of dollars to the
>school. He also managed to
>wangle his way onto the
>board of Trustees.
>
>The other girl's Dad started a
>scholarship fund.
>
>The point is that the option
>of buying one's way into
>school, is only available for
>maybe 1% of the population,
>if that. Your parents can
>make 400k, but you'd better
>have the grades.

Maybe not into the top 20 but I can't really see it taking that much to get into a good school. Someone with 400k who can't pull strings is doing something wrong.

>Trust me, I went to high
>school with and lived around
>students who were crying their
>eyes out because Dad was
>going to be pissed that
>they didn't get into Princeton.
>
>
>The person who can waltz through
>life and have things handed
>to them, is rare indeed.


I've seen people pulling strings to save their butt when they were in trouble and using influnce to to make sure their kid graduated, this was all on a small level when you compare it to people making 400k so I don't see how this kind of clout becomes rare as your income increases.


>
>
>
>As for Loans, I don't see
>Banks comparing Business plans of
>Black Business vs. White and
>not giving loans if the
>White Business would see competition.
>(since to my knowledge, they
>don't have them on file
>anyway)

Maybe not every loan that comes across their desk but I'm sure it takes place alot. I'm not sure what mean by they don't have them on file since they have to keep records of race and who was accepted and who was denied a loan. Given that all it would take is cross referencing a database.

>
>Quick Note: Small Business Loans are
>VERY hard to get. Read
>any magazine aimed at Small
>Business Owners and you'll always
>see a magazine discussing how
>to get a loan or
>alternative ways of financing. The
>loans are difficult to acquire
>because when you all you
>have is an idea, you
>have no real assets for
>the bank to use to
>recoup their investment if the
>Business fails. (which 80% of
>new Businesses do) My point
>is that too many Black
>Business owners blame not being
>able to get a loan
>on Racism, when chances are
>they might not have gotten
>the loan if they were
>White.

I've read where it is hard to get a small business loan and alot of small business fail but the guy I was speaking about did get to start other business while being denied the funds for one that would put a black business closer to a Black neighborhood saving these people a long car trip to a white business. People need to make sure they are not making excuses for subtle racism.

>
>There is a local company that
>I do technical consulting for.
>They've grown their revenues from
>4 figures in 98, to
>6 figures in 99 to
>7 in 2000 and are
>on pace to triple 2000s
>numbers for this year. The
>company was financed through organic
>growth, credit cards and 2nd
>mortgages. Can't get a loan
>to save their lives. Why?
>No real assets. If the
>business crashes, all the Bank
>could get is maybe 40,000
>in computer equipment.
>
>The people trying to get the
>Loan? Two Ivy League White
>Guys, both of which have
>some connections in the local
>area with the top guys
>at companies I KNOW you'd
>recognize. Didn't help though.

Sounds like they did something wrong. A contractor who was in financial trouble was allowed to get more money until he finally went bankrupt and cost the bank President his job. Guess what he is doing today, same business in another state.

>
>The point is that Blacks shouldn't
>be so quick to Yell
>Racism when they don't get
>that Small Business Loan. For
>the vast majority of small
>Businesses, getting Bank financing isn't
>an option unless they can
>take out a loan against
>their house.

Yeah but people shouldn't be so quick to dimiss racism charges. This country has a long history of racism, so small business loans are not any different.

>
>I just finished a 6 month
>consulting engagement at a Billion
>dollar company that did just
>that, they would provide High
>Interest 2nd mortgages to small
>Business Owners.
>
>The best way to get a
>small Business loan is to
>have connections, I agree with
>you there. BUT, it's about
>connections, not color. (although you
>could say that Blacks have
>trouble making those connections because
>of racism) You need the
>connection so that you have
>someone in your corner that
>believes in you.

It has to be abut color if racism is preventing those connections.

>
>As for jobs, yes a lot
>of people get their jobs
>because they know someone. Hell,
>that's how I got mine!
>BUT, I don't think that's
>the same thing as having
>a connection and not having
>to work. The guy who
>hired me at my job
>got HIS job because he
>knew someone, I got MY
>job because I met him
>at a networking event and
>made a good impression. BUT,
>we still had to work
>our asses off. Unlike the
>other guy who we need
>to compensate for, because he's
>an idiot.
>
>The point is that people who
>have connections and can skate
>by without doing any work
>are few and far between,
>at least in my experiences
>in Corporate America. There are
>people like that around, but
>after a certain point, if
>you can't cut the mustard..you're
>out. Even the connection doesn't
>always help, I interviewed a
>kid for a client last
>summer, he only got the
>Interview because his Dad was
>on the company's board and
>good friends with the CEO
>(A Fortune 100 Pharmaceutical) he
>sucked so we didn't hire
>him.

That's not what I've seen. A guy was hired,and promoted when he could barely read. He had a guy underneath him doing all the work. Their was other guys who would lay out ,sleep during on the job...etc.

>
>Connections only get you so far
>and being wealthy and white
>isn't the free ticket it's
>made out to be.

But if your not wealthy and white how would you know? I've seen the advantages that come with it, these people didn't have to work, would get fired and rehired,they would quit and get rehired, screw up one job and get hired at another one, a whole staff that did nothing or next to nothing for years. The one thing all of these people had in common was they were white. Most didn't even have a lot of money.

>
>I agree with most of what
>you said in your post,
>I just think you overestimate
>the advantag of being White
>or being White and Rich.

I doubt it. If I was wrong we would see the same advantages and disadvantages across the board no matter what color.

>
>P.S. Forgot,
>
>Redlining:
>
>I've seen it White Neighboorhoods too,
>take a look at some
>of the Steel towns of
>PA. I think the Redlining
>issue needs to be looked
>at more as a Business
>issue then a racial one.
>It is a fact that
>people in poor communities aren't
>going to be as valuable
>to a Bank as people
>in wealthier ones......and Banks are
>Businesses after all.

The redlining in the Steeltowns in PA, was that before or after all the factories started closing? I think it's a mistake to ignore racism given it's long and documented history. This is not just taking place in poor communities.

>
>Furthermore, when you look at the
>sad, sad state that most
>Black owned Banks are in.
>(E.g. Carver Bank Corp, United
>Bank in philly) in terms
>of low or no profits,
>federal intervention because they don't
>have enough $ in deposits,
>extremely high default rates on
>Mortgages and Business Loans because
>of relaxed lending rules, etc.

I've read about that but I know about banks that are doing good too.

>
>
>It lends a lot of credence
>to the fact that just
>because a "White" bank doesn't
>want to operate in a
>Black community, doesn't mean it's
>racism...when you look at how
>Black banks fare in the
>same areas.

Not really, the devil is in the details and I'm sure their is a lot more below the surface. Excuses like these are used all the time to explain away racism. You always here the cop thought his life was in danger, after he kills an unarmed man. I have read articles where Blacks were singled out for something everyone was doing when it comes to credit.

>
>Because of things I've already discussed,
>I don't always think it's
>racism when they deny people
>from the community loans either.
>I'm not naieve enough to
>believe that there isn't a
>lot of racism, but I'm
>also realistic enough to realize
>that if you're living in
>a poor neighboorhood, the chances
>are good that you're not
>a good risk for a
>Business Loan, or maybe not
>even a Home Loan.

I agree and I understand someone from a poor neighborhood is more of a risk then someone from a middles calss neighborhood, but here is the problem, all of the evidence points to redlining taking place across income levels. So it's not just the poor neighborhoods.

>This is why Understanding the System
>is important, a lot of
>Brothas & Sistas try to
>get loans or start Business
>and get discouraged by the
>obstacles: Not getting financing, legal
>issues, etc. They may blame
>things on racism that are
>really just a part of
>doing Business, that would neccessarily
>change if they were White.

This is not true but I agree it is important to understand the system. It's not only brothas & sistas making these charges. Redlining has been investigated and reviewed by journalist and politicans if racism was not there and this was only Business no one could make it be there.

>
>
>Something I'd like to do at
>some point, is to provide
>financial/Business training to Blacks from
>the perspective of the organizations
>that they're dealing with. If
>you can understand the mindset
>of the Bank you're trying
>to get a loan from,
>you're in a much better
>position.


Sounds like a good idea it would help report more banks that are discriminating

>
>If you at least know that
>you're getting denied because of
>fair, financial reasons.......then you will
>know what you have to
>do to change your situation.
>It may entail moving to
>a nicer neighboorhood so that
>you have a more valuable
>house from which to borrow
>against, starting the Business in
>a wealthier part of town
>so that the Bank is
>more confident of your ability
>to succeed and THEN opening
>an establishment in a wealthier
>area.

If redlining was just about a Banks confidence in your ability to succeed middle class Blacks would not get denied loans more than middle class whites.

>
>I've always wanted to open Businesses
>in poor Black communities that
>could pay a good wage
>and provide on job learning
>opportunities that people could leverage
>into better jobs later on
>in life. BUT, I would
>start it in a wealthier
>neighboorhood first and then open
>up a location in a
>Black one.....it's just easier. PLUS,
>if the one in the
>poor neighboorhood is starting slow
>or not doing well......I can
>subsidize it with the profits
>from the more successful one
>


It's easier because of racism and all Black neighborhoods are not poor.

>
>As for investing in communities, the
>point of an investment is
>get a return. It's hard
>to get a bank to
>invest in the community if
>it's not going to see
>a return. I've observed the
>rejuvenation of poor neighboorhoods and
>I've watched my parents efforts
>with Community Development Organizations and
>I've noticed that when the
>Banks do make a serious
>attempt to invest in a
>community, it's usually with the
>help of outside organizations, (E.g.
>a Local Company, a local
>college, a private foundation, etc.
>AND the government.) those orgs
>are brought in to subsidize
>the investments so that the
>Bank sees a profit.
>
>On a side note, I've had
>mixed feelings about community development
>because it seems to push
>people out of the community
>who can no longer afford
>to stay. I think those
>efforts need to be managed
>better so that all of
>these people are presented with
>the opportunity to strengthen their
>economics so they can stay,
>and the ones that do
>move are the ones that
>didn't take advantage of the
>opportunity.

Sounds like gentrification which is a perfect example of racism. These poor Black neighborhoods are not worth investing in when it's Blacks who want the loan but when whites decide they want to move back to the city because the commute is too long then it is no longer bad business to invest in poor neighborhoods.

>
>That may be what is happening,
>but I'm just not sure
>right now.
>
>
>

Here is some of what I read concerning redlining.


There were many laws that came out of the Civil Rights era aimed at eliminating racial segregation and discrimination in all aspects of American society. Among them were the Fair Housing Act and the Equal Credit Opportunity Act guaranteeing minorities equal access to housing and to the financing to afford it. Widespread noncompliance with these laws was the order of the day and the nation continued its historical pattern of segregated housing as financial institutions denied mortgage loans to African Americans. This practice, known as redlining, is defined as the refusal by financial institutions to make mortgage loans to residents of certain neighborhoods because of the racial composition, income level of the residents or age of the housing stock.

The Home Mortgage Disclosure Act of 1975 was added to the arsenal of legal weapons with which to combat the discriminatory practice of redlining. The Act mandated the collection of demographic data on mortgage lending to better identify patterns of discrimination in lending. In 1977, Congress passed the Community Reinvestment Act as a key element to outlawing redlining. The Act requires financial institutions to invest in all geographic areas served by their branches. The Act also requires lenders to meet the credit needs of all segments of the community.

Through monitoring compliance with these laws and through their own investigations, journalists are able to report on the level of access minorities have to mortgage loans and other kinds of credit.

With the coming of the information age, "information redlining," also called "electronic redlining," came a new way for financial institutions and information service providers to discriminate against minority and poor communities . Just as with mortgage loans, there is a pattern developing where minorities are systematically being denied access to information technology and the infrastructure that will deliver information services in the future. The regional telephone companies have been charged with redlining on the hightech information highway. The phone companies are systematically bypassing lowincome and minority neighborhoods as they plan and install the digital dial tone network to deliver "videoondemand" services.


As early as 1981, journalists were investigating charges of electronic redlining by the cable TV industry. It appeared that cable providers were selectively wiring to bypass large sections of minority communities threatening to deprive them of important services that cable promised to deliver. These services included security and fire alarm systems, electronic banking, shopping and news delivery.

Insurance redlining is another continuing practice of financial discrimination against minorities and the poor in America. This type of redlining is carried out by insurance companies that refuse coverage or charge more for covering properties in minority communities. Getting insurance coverage has been a historic problem for African Americans.


On July 20, 1994, the House of Representatives passed legislation focusing on insurance redlining.. See "Anti Redlining in Insurance Disclosure Act," H.R. 1188, 103rd. Cong. 2d. Sess., July 21, 1994.


More recent media exposés on the topic show that the new redlining is different from the old but that minorities are still getting shortchanged in banking, insurance and other economic activities. A 1995 investigative story by U.S. News & World Report came to this conclusion based on a sixmonth investigation of banking, lending, and home insurance coverage in poor and minority neighborhoods. The report was based on analysis of 24 million mortgage records, nine sets of banking and insurance industry data and 200 interviews in 12 cities. The investigation demonstrates that not much has changed. Minorities of all income levels are denied mortgages and home insurance coverage at more than twice the rate of Whites with comparable incomes.. "The New Redlining," U.S. News & World Report, April 17, 1995

By far, the most wellknown and successful investigative reporting on redlining was done for the "The Color of Money" project. The Atlanta Journal and Constitution won the 1988 Pulitzer Prize for this series on redlining in Atlanta's AfricanAmerican neighborhoods. Written by Bill Dedman, the series ran between May 1 and 16. Dedman used database reporting and help from university researchers to document how Atlanta banks routinely discriminated against middleclass AfricanAmerican applicants for housing loans.



The evidence is overwhelming





"I must warn you, ma'am, that people invariably flee the room when I walk in because I'm from Levittown"

"And what a spectacular act of noblesse oblige on her part to escort the lowly Levittowner around Washington on Inauguration Day!"

"If one were sufficiently paranoid, one might easily misinterpret a decision to go get seconds on that chicken hash as a deliberate insult to the municipality of Levittown."

"Close examination of the guest list reveals many other guests with backgrounds more humble than Bill O'Reilly's. Yes, even more humble than an accountant's son from Levittown. We can only hope that they didn't take offense when O'Reilly himself departed."

I'm working-class Irish American Bill O'Reilly … pretty far down the social totem pole," he says. Growing up in the 1960s, he watched his father "exhausting himself commuting from Levittown" to work as an accountant for an oil company. Dad "never made more than $35,000"—which would be $100,000 or more in today's money

>That's still not the same definition
>I read about. The way
>I read it, wealth is
>owning a business, land, not
>making payments on a mortgages
>and car loans. Actually owning
>it. Your definition makes
>wealth powerless,because is still falls
>back to how many dollars
>you have.

That's financial independence not wealth and it's a loose definition of financial independence.

I read Fortune & Forbes every 2 weeks, (that's when they come out) the average reader of those magazines are worth about 2 million dollars. While they discuss business issues, politics and business news. The primary focus on those magazines is how to build wealth, and they ALWAYS discuss building wealth in terms of how much you're worth and/or generating more cash from your investments, getting more equity in your home.

That IS the definition of wealth, it doesn't make it powerless because it is after all, a definition of how much dollars you have.

Another thing to remember, is that Wealth is your NET WORTH...the $ value of your assets after your liabilities/bills are paid. That's money you have independent of a job or source of income. So if I someone is worth 2 million dollars and has 300k in liabilities, they're worth 1.7 million. Because that's how much they would have if they paid all their bills tommorrow.

Furthermore, it is fiscally smarter to take out a Mortgage to buy a house (and even cars) then to pay for them in cash. I can break down the numbers for you, but it goes something like this:

Let's say I've got 1.3 million in disposable cash, and I want to buy a $250,000 house and invest the rest. Let's say for the sake of argument that I can get a 15% annual return on the money I invest and I'll pay a 6% interest rate on the mortgage.

The smart thing to do here, is NOT to buy the house in cash. The smart thing to do is to set aside to spend 20,000 as a downpayment, then set aside 25,000 in a high yield money market account to pay the first years mortgage, taxes and any tweaks you want done on the house. (The kind that pay around 6-7% and are available to people with that kind of cash to set aside. )Next, put aside 255,00 as your "mortgage fund" E.g. the money that will generate the mortgage payments. Assuming a 15% rate of return, that fund will generate more then enough to pay the mortgage. You'll probably wind up with a 10% return on that money AFTER you pay the mortgage AND as time goes on and you pay down the principle, the profit off that money will increase.

As planned, you go ahead and invest the rest of your disposable cash: The 1 million you have left over.

Now think about it, you have 1 million making 15% and 255k making 10% the original money market fund you set up for the mortgage is making money too (might even be enough to pay your utility bills). You can write off the interest paid on the mortgage on your taxes, your wealth is growing faster then if you had bought the house in cash, AND the net decrease to your wealth after you bought the house is only the 6% interest you paid the first year and the property taxes and any tweaks you made to the home. (which you wrote off on your taxes anyway) The amount you paid towards the principle is considered part of your wealth because it's considered equity in the home, as is the downpayment.

So I contend that the universal definition of wealth is correct, just as a stated before. Not to mention it is the definition of wealth used in Forbes, Fortune, Kiplinger, Money and every publication and ever authority who discuses building wealth. What do you think they were referring to when the Media, Wall St. and financial pundints were discussing wealth being created by the stock market or wealth dissapearing.

Having a mortgage can be fiscally smart thing to do. Furthermore, just because your house is paid off and your car is paid off.....it doesn't mean that your wealthy..it just means your debt free. (Particularly since buying things in cash is often less fiscally sound then buying them on credit!) Wealth is the net value of your assets - your liabilities.

The scenario I discribed before is what Rich people do, it's what any financial advisor worth half his salt would tell you to do.

As you proved yourself in your own responses, wealth and power do not go hand in hand. If someone making 60k/year can have connections, they must be entirely different things. Think about it, people have connections for two reasons: Friendships or because they have something to offer E.g. MONEY/Power.

If you don't make the friendships, or don't have enough Money (millions) or any power (politics) you won't have any serious connnections. Sure, a lot of middle class people will have some connections....but nothing comparable to Bush or that can get you into Harvard.

So I stand by my stance on the power myth, most people don't have any.....regardless of income. It's a myth to claim or believe that just because you have money, you'll have power.

However, I do get the feeling that you're mistaking the ability to raise hell and get your way with power & connections. Sometimes, a child will fail out of school and his parents will go scream at the right people. I've seen that, but it wasn't neccessarily power.....it was a case of the parents saying: "Look, we want our kid in this school and we pay full tuition to send him here. Yes, he failed out but we're going to make sure he gets his grades back up. Basically, they work something out with the school...he takes classes on a non matriculated basis....etc" That's not real power, because they didn't pull strings.....that's a case of people knowing their options. I've seen that before and I don't call it power.



>>
>>That million is the sum of
>>your wealth, it doesn't mean
>>you have power though.
>
>That's not the same definition I
>read about.

I'd like to know where you're reading this, because I've never read something that goes against what I've said. Particularly since I read things that are read by wealthy people and focus on building wealth.


>>Money can be used to gain
>>power, but you don't automatically
>>have power by being wealthy.
>
>It may not be automatic but
>if you don't have any
>power or influence with money
>you are doing something wrong.

Two things:

#1. We need to define the magnitude of this power and influence. I know Fortune 100 execs on a first name basis, I know wealthy people, if you work in IT I can make a few calls and probably get you an interview and/or at the very least, someone to look at your resume.

BUT, I don't think I have power or influence. I just have a few friends.

#2. A lot of people, I daresay...most people don't do the things that turn wealth into power. They may be doing something wrong, but it goes to show that money does not equal power.
>>-Didn't have the connections
>
>Money without connections, sounds like they
>don't know what they are
>doing.

They knew what they were doing to make the money! Connections is an entirely different thing that is only vaguely money dependent.

I made some sweet connections because of the college I went to. I could've dropped out and became a janitor, or maybe I would've majored in something that wouldn't have paid much. BUT, I'd still have those connections. Making connections is a function of making the effort to network and/or meeting the right people. It's not neccessarily a part of the money making process.



>>-It's not as easy as just
>>making the money
>
>It may not be easy but
>it can't be that hard
>either based on what I've
>seen from people with less.

It's a matter of opportunity, I could've lived on a different hall as Freshman and not met the folks I did. It's not neccessarily hard to make connections, but it's not neccessarily difficult.

Fact is, most people don't have em and/or don't have em on a level to get into the top schools, always be employed and have no trouble getting financing.

>Maybe not into the top 20
>but I can't really see
>it taking that much to
>get into a good school.
>Someone with 400k who can't
>pull strings is doing something
>wrong.

You keep saying that they're doing something wrong, so articulate it. What exactly are they doing wrong?

Why don't most people have significant connections?

>I've seen people pulling strings to
>save their butt when they
>were in trouble and using
>influnce to to make sure
>their kid graduated, this was
>all on a small level
>when you compare it to
>people making 400k so I
>don't see how this kind
>of clout becomes rare as
>your income increases.

It's not becoming rare per se, it's just rare to have connections on a LARGE level. I don't see using your influence to make sure your kid graduates high school as power....often that's just making a stink and convincing the school to go your way.

>Maybe not every loan that comes
>across their desk but I'm
>sure it takes place alot.
>I'm not sure what mean
>by they don't have them
>on file since they have
>to keep records of race
>and who was accepted and
>who was denied a loan.
>Given that all it would
>take is cross referencing a
>database.

I've helped build those systems, they don't have Business plans on file nor do they have the facilities in place to compare them on the basis of race. (even if they did have them on file) There isn't the time and it's not valuable to the bank due to the amount of volume they're dealing with.

You get screwed when the Loan Officer doesn't believe you can pay the Loan back, because his prejudices make him feel that Blacks can't succeed. BUT, there isn't time (or the need) to compare Business plans to save White Businesses from competition, since they're going to give loans to competing white businesses either.

Whites aren't a homogenus group an they don't act that way.

I've seen the isht first hand, trust me.



>I've read where it is hard
>to get a small business
>loan and alot of small
>business fail but the guy
>I was speaking about did
>get to start other business
>while being denied the funds
>for one that would put
>a black business closer to
>a Black neighborhood saving these
>people a long car trip
>to a white business.
>People need to make sure
>they are not making excuses
>for subtle racism.

People need to make sure that there IS racism, while that Business may seem like a priority to Blacks. The Bank could've had legitamate fears about it's ability to work. Even if he had started other businesses.

I admit that race could've played a factor, but I hear these accusations all the time that leave out any Business factors that could've played against them and make it all race.


>Sounds like they did something wrong.
>A contractor who was in
>financial trouble was allowed to
>get more money until he
>finally went bankrupt and cost
>the bank President his job.
>Guess what he is doing
>today, same business in another
>state.

They're not doing anything wrong, a contractor is going to have physical assets that the Bank can sell and this guy obviously had an IN with the Bank president, so it's not the same thing as trying to get the loan on your own merits. If the Bank President lost his job, it's because this person shouldn't have gotten the loan in the first place! So you're comparing apples to oranges.

Banks need to have something to grab if you don't pay. If you don't pay your car, they repo it. If you don't pay your house, they can foreclose on it. etc. etc.

If a Business has no real assets and things dry up, the Bank has nothing to sell to recoup it's money. Unsecured loans are hard to come by, so these people are in fact......doing nothing wrong. They've failed (for good reasons) in getting the loan they need......they've gotten lines of credit (based on average account balances) but that's about it.

I really think you should read the December 25th, issue of Forbes. It is mostly focused on how people maintain and build their wealth through collecting, investing and what not. PLUS, it has a good article on bankrupt Dot Coms and how the Banks are losing their shirts because these companies have no assets to sell.

I think you've made some really good points in these posts, but I think you need to get an insiders view of wealth, banks and Businesses in general to see what's going on. *Some* of your comments sound like someone who has only observed, but not seen things from the inside.

>That's not what I've seen. A
>guy was hired,and promoted when
>he could barely read.
>He had a guy underneath
>him doing all the work.
>Their was other guys who
>would lay out ,sleep during
>on the job...etc.

What size company is this? Is it a family business? I've seen this, but never on a numerically large scale. People see it and blow it out of porportion.

>But if your not wealthy and
>white how would you know?
>I've seen the advantages that
>come with it, these people
>didn't have to work, would
>get fired and rehired,they would
>quit and get rehired, screw
>up one job and get
>hired at another one, a
>whole staff that did nothing
>or next to nothing for
>years. The one thing all
>of these people had in
>common was they were white.
>Most didn't even have a
>lot of money.

I may not be Rich and White, but the vast majority of my friends and neighboors were growing up and are now. I don't want throw your words back at you, but since you're not rich and white and didn't grew up/live around these people, how can YOU know.

When I talk to Blacks about it, it seems to me that they inflate their image of rich whites and the connections and influence they have, way out of porportion. I've had these conversations with Blacks in college how the White kids were all rich, never had to struggle, didn't need financial aid....when the opposite was true.

Yes, *some* whites are lazy at work......but most Americans are lazy at work...it isn't a white thing. Blacks get busted more because of racism and because we stand out more. BUT, it isn't because of a white connected circle that looks out for them.

You just described the average american worker, not someone well connected or powerful.

The whole idea is counter-productive to success, at some point you do have to deliver.....particularly at the big time corporate level. The idea that whites (particularly at that level) are all Lazy and get away with things because they were rich and/or have connections is wrong. Most workers get away with being lazy, because they would just be replaced by more lazy people.

But at higher levels of corporate America, I work with too many well of white folks that bust their ass on a regular.

Yeah, we've got the ONE guy we need to cover for. But his charisma does come in handy when we talk to clients, so I have to give him that. BUT, there is that one guy. The rest of us are in at 7 and gone no earlier then 6.



>>I agree with most of what
>>you said in your post,
>>I just think you overestimate
>>the advantag of being White
>>or being White and Rich.
>
>I doubt it. If I was
>wrong we would see the
>same advantages and disadvantages across
>the board no matter what
>color.

Overestimate, Overestimate....look at that word. That means that I see the advantages/disadvantages.....I just don't see them at the magnitude you do. I live in the world of affluent whites and I don't see them having things 1/2 as easy as you think.

Whites treat each other fair, but they don't neccessarily favor them......they're the majority how do the favor one white guy or another? It LOOKs that way, because they hold us in disfavor.....so the net difference = favoring whites.....when they're really just treating each other fairly.


>The redlining in the Steeltowns in
>PA, was that before or
>after all the factories started
>closing? I think it's a
>mistake to ignore racism given
>it's long and documented history.
> This is not just
>taking place in poor communities.

After, they were a lot more banks in the Steeltowns or in the poor parts of towns before the factories started closing. Some of these towns have NEW banks starting up in the wealthier areas, while banks are closing down in the poor ones.

If it's in wealthy Black communities I'd call it racism. If it's in poor communities where they aren't likely to make money or not what they would make someplace else, I don't call it racism because there are several Business reasons not to do business there.


>I've read about that but I
>know about banks that are
>doing good too.

A lot of them aren't though, and when you look at the profits of the ones that are doing "good" you still see much higher default rates on loans, low deposits and the reasons most White Banks don't want to do Business in Black neighboorhoods...it's a huge financial issue that a lot of Blacks ignore.



>Not really, the devil is in
>the details and I'm sure
>their is a lot more
>below the surface. Excuses like
>these are used all the
>time to explain away racism.
>You always here the cop
>thought his life was in
>danger, after he kills an
>unarmed man. I have read
>articles where Blacks were singled
>out for something everyone was
>doing when it comes to
>credit.

There is a difference between Racism and a good reason. "I'm sure there is more below the surface isn't valid, unless you know what's there"

If Black Owned Banks in Harlem, Boston and West Philly are in serious trouble, why the heck would a white bank stay open there and/or want to open up a branch there? Racism be damned, there is a serious economic issue here.

Let's take away race.

A Bank asks me to determine if doing business in an area is a good idea. So I look at the average income of the people in the area, I look at their average home value, I look at how many of the citizens own homes, I look at the financial strength of the Banks in the area, particularly ones that focus ONLY on that area (or similar ones) so that the banks results are affected by the fact that they business in more profitable areas.

I find the average income to be 18k, I find that the average home value is 50k, I find that average person does not own their home, I find that the bank that focuses on that area just ousted their CEO/Founder, hasn't made any money for its stockholders, has sky high default rates on it's loans, deposits are dropping and they had to make a deal with the FDIC, because of the low amount of cash on deposit.

I look at another area, average home value is 275k, average income is 72k, average person owns their home. The local bank is doing great.

I just described West Philly and united national bank in the first example and Villanova, PA and Bryn Mawr trust in the second.

So which place is a better place to do business if you're a bank?

Is it now fair to recognize race as a factor, but realize the need to focus on economics since even if race wasn't a factor they probably wouldn't/shouldn't do business there anyway?

>I agree and I understand someone
>from a poor neighborhood is
>more of a risk then
>someone from a middles calss
>neighborhood, but here is the
>problem, all of the evidence
>points to redlining taking place
>across income levels. So it's
>not just the poor neighborhoods.

I don't think it's redlining if it's a poor area, since it happens to whites too.

I haven't seen it in wealthier ones.


>This is not true but I
>agree it is important to
>understand the system. It's
>not only brothas & sistas
>making these charges. Redlining has
>been investigated and reviewed by
>journalist and politicans if racism
>was not there and this
>was only Business no one
>could make it be there.

Incorrect, people always make this about race/poverty. They never take the economics issue into account. It's liberals running to scream oppression. (not that I consider myself conservatives, but it's just what I see). These journalists scream redlining (for ratings) and in areas were Businesses are failing, how is that not Business?

PLUS, time and time again...if Business and Banks come back, they have support from the government to make sure it becomes profitable.

Furthermore, if Brothas/Sistas are blaming racism on things that are Business......they NEED to know how to tell the difference.

There are many different sides to the redlining issue, SOME are valid.....OTHERS are not. The problem is that descriminatory lending practices of a middle class Black, are seen as the same as banks not wanting to work with people in areas that will probably cause them to lose money. It's apples and oranges and progress is being affected by people ignoring the economic issues and merely focusing on the racial ones.



Peace,





M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

>
>>That's still not the same definition
>>I read about. The way
>>I read it, wealth is
>>owning a business, land, not
>>making payments on a mortgages
>>and car loans. Actually owning
>>it. Your definition makes
>>wealth powerless,because is still falls
>>back to how many dollars
>>you have.
>
>That's financial independence not wealth and
>it's a loose definition of
>financial independence.
>
>I read Fortune & Forbes every
>2 weeks, (that's when they
>come out) the average reader
>of those magazines are worth
>about 2 million dollars. While
>they discuss business issues, politics
>and business news. The primary
>focus on those magazines is
>how to build wealth, and
>they ALWAYS discuss building wealth
>in terms of how much
>you're worth and/or generating more
>cash from your investments, getting
>more equity in your home.
>
>
>That IS the definition of wealth,
>it doesn't make it powerless
>because it is after all,
>a definition of how much
>dollars you have.
>
>Another thing to remember, is that
>Wealth is your NET WORTH...the
>$ value of your assets
>after your liabilities/bills are paid.
>That's money you have independent
>of a job or source
>of income. So if I
>someone is worth 2 million
>dollars and has 300k in
>liabilities, they're worth 1.7 million.
>Because that's how much they
>would have if they paid
>all their bills tommorrow.

That doesn't sound like wealth it just sounds like putting a dollar value on what you have as opposed to determing how much power you have.

>
>Furthermore, it is fiscally smarter to
>take out a Mortgage to
>buy a house (and even
>cars) then to pay for
>them in cash. I can
>break down the numbers for
>you, but it goes something
>like this:

Yeah I understand that.

>
>Let's say I've got 1.3 million
>in disposable cash, and I
>want to buy a $250,000
>house and invest the rest.
>Let's say for the sake
>of argument that I can
>get a 15% annual return
>on the money I invest
>and I'll pay a 6%
>interest rate on the mortgage.
>
>
>The smart thing to do here,
>is NOT to buy the
>house in cash. The smart
>thing to do is to
>set aside to spend 20,000
>as a downpayment, then set
>aside 25,000 in a high
>yield money market account to
>pay the first years mortgage,
>taxes and any tweaks you
>want done on the house.
>(The kind that pay around
>6-7% and are available to
>people with that kind of
>cash to set aside. )Next,
>put aside 255,00 as your
>"mortgage fund" E.g. the money
>that will generate the mortgage
>payments. Assuming a 15% rate
>of return, that fund will
>generate more then enough to
>pay the mortgage. You'll probably
>wind up with a 10%
>return on that money AFTER
>you pay the mortgage AND
>as time goes on and
>you pay down the principle,
>the profit off that money
>will increase.
>
>As planned, you go ahead and
>invest the rest of your
>disposable cash: The 1 million
>you have left over.
>
>Now think about it, you have
>1 million making 15% and
>255k making 10% the original
>money market fund you set
>up for the mortgage is
>making money too (might even
>be enough to pay your
>utility bills). You can write
>off the interest paid on
>the mortgage on your taxes,
>your wealth is growing faster
>then if you had bought
>the house in cash, AND
>the net decrease to your
>wealth after you bought the
>house is only the 6%
>interest you paid the first
>year and the property taxes
>and any tweaks you made
>to the home. (which you
>wrote off on your taxes
>anyway) The amount you paid
>towards the principle is considered
>part of your wealth because
>it's considered equity in the
>home, as is the downpayment.

Yeah I've read that before not in the detail that you provided but I do recall reading some of the same views about buying homes..ect.

>
>
>So I contend that the universal
>definition of wealth is correct,
>just as a stated before.
>Not to mention it is
>the definition of wealth used
>in Forbes, Fortune, Kiplinger, Money
>and every publication and ever
>authority who discuses building wealth.
>What do you think they
>were referring to when the
>Media, Wall St. and financial
>pundints were discussing wealth being
>created by the stock market
>or wealth dissapearing.

Ok this is what I don't understand, how can that be the universal definition when the dictionary defines wealth as An abundance of valuable material possessions or resources; riches.
The state of being rich; affluence.
All goods and resources having value in terms of exchange or use. A great amount; a profusion: a wealth of advice.


>
>Having a mortgage can be fiscally
>smart thing to do. Furthermore,
>just because your house is
>paid off and your car
>is paid off.....it doesn't mean
>that your wealthy..it just means
>your debt free. (Particularly since
>buying things in cash is
>often less fiscally sound then
>buying them on credit!) Wealth
>is the net value of
>your assets - your liabilities.

A house with a mortgage is one thing but I also named business and land. I never said anything bout buying things in cash.

>
>
>The scenario I discribed before is
>what Rich people do, it's
>what any financial advisor worth
>half his salt would tell
>you to do.
>
>As you proved yourself in your
>own responses, wealth and power
>do not go hand in
>hand. If someone making 60k/year
>can have connections, they must
>be entirely different things. Think
>about it, people have connections
>for two reasons: Friendships or
>because they have something to
>offer E.g. MONEY/Power.

A janitor has no power, a fast food worker has no power. When I used 60k it was to show the degree of power at each level, since everyone is not at the same level.

>
>If you don't make the friendships,
>or don't have enough Money
>(millions) or any power (politics)
>you won't have any serious
>connnections. Sure, a lot of
>middle class people will have
>some connections....but nothing comparable to
>Bush or that can get
>you into Harvard.

Connections are automatic for politicans so I don't think it's fair to use them, with money you can get into politics and you can get friends it's almost guarnteed. So money creates connections and power out of nothing.

>
>So I stand by my stance
>on the power myth, most
>people don't have any.....regardless of
>income. It's a myth to
>claim or believe that just
>because you have money, you'll
>have power.

I still disagree with your stance. What can a man with no money do more of, that a man with even a little money can do. The more money you have the more power you have.

>
>However, I do get the feeling
>that you're mistaking the ability
>to raise hell and get
>your way with power &
>connections. Sometimes, a child will
>fail out of school and
>his parents will go
>scream at the right people.
>I've seen that, but it
>wasn't neccessarily power.....it was a
>case of the parents saying:
>"Look, we want our kid
>in this school and we
>pay full tuition to send
>him here. Yes, he failed
>out but we're going to
>make sure he gets his
>grades back up. Basically, they
>work something out with the
>school...he takes classes on a
>non matriculated basis....etc" That's not
>real power, because they didn't
>pull strings.....that's a case of
>people knowing their options. I've
>seen that before and I
>don't call it power.

No that was not what I witnessed. They didn't make a deal.

>
>
>
>>>
>>>That million is the sum of
>>>your wealth, it doesn't mean
>>>you have power though.
>>
>>That's not the same definition I
>>read about.
>
>I'd like to know where you're
>reading this, because I've never
>read something that goes against
>what I've said. Particularly since
>I read things that are
>read by wealthy people and
>focus on building wealth.


Claude Anderson

>
>
>>>Money can be used to gain
>>>power, but you don't automatically
>>>have power by being wealthy.
>>
>>It may not be automatic but
>>if you don't have any
>>power or influence with money
>>you are doing something wrong.
>
>Two things:
>
>#1. We need to define the
>magnitude of this power and
>influence. I know Fortune 100
>execs on a first name
>basis, I know wealthy people,
>if you work in IT
>I can make a few
>calls and probably get you
>an interview and/or at the
>very least, someone to look
>at your resume.
>
>BUT, I don't think I have
>power or influence. I just
>have a few friends.

That's interesting because I've seen people who don't have any of those connections but they got people hired. No interview, no resume

>
>#2. A lot of people, I
>daresay...most people don't do the
>things that turn wealth into
>power. They may be doing
>something wrong, but it goes
>to show that money does
>not equal power.
>>>-Didn't have the connections
>>
>>Money without connections, sounds like they
>>don't know what they are
>>doing.
>
>They knew what they were doing
>to make the money! Connections
>is an entirely different thing
>that is only vaguely money
>dependent.

You don't have to know a lot to make money. connections is very money dependent. Money is the access to the right circles.

>
>I made some sweet connections because
>of the college I went
>to. I could've dropped out
>and became a janitor, or
>maybe I would've majored in
>something that wouldn't have paid
>much. BUT, I'd still have
>those connections. Making connections is
>a function of making the
>effort to network and/or meeting
>the right people. It's not
>neccessarily a part of the
>money making process.


Could you be in the position to make those connections without money.

>
>
>
>>>-It's not as easy as just
>>>making the money
>>
>>It may not be easy but
>>it can't be that hard
>>either based on what I've
>>seen from people with less.
>
>It's a matter of opportunity, I
>could've lived on a different
>hall as Freshman and
>not met the folks I
>did. It's not neccessarily hard
>to make connections, but it's
>not neccessarily difficult.

Even if you lived in a Freshman dorm and never met those folks you were still closer and had more of an opportunity than people who don't have enough money to attend that school at all.

>
>Fact is, most people don't have
>em and/or don't have em
>on a level to get
>into the top schools, always
>be employed and have no
>trouble getting financing.

>
>>Maybe not into the top 20
>>but I can't really see
>>it taking that much to
>>get into a good school.
>>Someone with 400k who can't
>>pull strings is doing something
>>wrong.
>
>You keep saying that they're doing
>something wrong, so articulate it.
>What exactly are they doing
>wrong?


Several things, missing an easy opportunity, unaware of the power they have so they don't use it, maybe they pissed the wrong person off, All you have to do is look at the amount of money Blacks have. Thats power, if Blacks were to boycott these racists companies and only spend with Blacks it would hurt a number of companies.

>
>Why don't most people have significant
>connections?

They don't know what they are doing. They have money but they don't know how to use it.

>>I've seen people pulling strings to
>>save their butt when they
>>were in trouble and using
>>influnce to to make sure
>>their kid graduated, this was
>>all on a small level
>>when you compare it to
>>people making 400k so I
>>don't see how this kind
>>of clout becomes rare as
>>your income increases.
>
>It's not becoming rare per se,
>it's just rare to have
>connections on a LARGE level.
>I don't see using your
>influence to make sure your
>kid graduates high school as
>power....often that's just making a
>stink and convincing the school
>to go your way.

If it's on a small level and you say it's rare at the top that means it has to be decreasing as you go up,which doesn't make sense. No this was not a kid in high school he was in college and they didn't make threats or raise hell they pulled strings, used influnce.

>>Maybe not every loan that comes
>>across their desk but I'm
>>sure it takes place alot.
>>I'm not sure what mean
>>by they don't have them
>>on file since they have
>>to keep records of race
>>and who was accepted and
>>who was denied a loan.
>>Given that all it would
>>take is cross referencing a
>>database.
>
>I've helped build those systems, they
>don't have Business plans on
>file nor do they have
>the facilities in place to
>compare them on the basis
>of race. (even if they
>did have them on file)
>There isn't the time and
>it's not valuable to the
>bank due to the amount
>of volume they're dealing with.

They don't have the race of the applicant, and what kind of loan it is? You don't need that much time to cross reference.

>
>
>You get screwed when the Loan
>Officer doesn't believe you can
>pay the Loan back, because
>his prejudices make him feel
>that Blacks can't succeed. BUT,
>there isn't time (or the
>need) to compare Business plans
>to save White Businesses from
>competition, since they're going to
>give loans to competing white
>businesses either.
>
>Whites aren't a homogenus group an
>they don't act that way.

Sure they do everyday. What is racism, separate,unplanned independant, and indiviual? Discrimination at a large company does not involve alot of people keeping their mouth shut? It really doesn't take that much. Unwritten rules

>
>
>I've seen the isht first hand,
>trust me.

I've seen just the opposite I 've seen people fall in line when asked.

>
>
>>I've read where it is hard
>>to get a small business
>>loan and alot of small
>>business fail but the guy
>>I was speaking about did
>>get to start other business
>>while being denied the funds
>>for one that would put
>>a black business closer to
>>a Black neighborhood saving these
>>people a long car trip
>>to a white business.
>>People need to make sure
>>they are not making excuses
>>for subtle racism.
>
>People need to make sure that
>there IS racism, while that
>Business may seem like a
>priority to Blacks. The Bank
>could've had legitamate fears about
>it's ability to work. Even
>if he had started other
>businesses.

People are sure, they have documented evidence what more can anyone do, no one is going say yes I am being racist, Texaco lied until the tape came out.

>
>I admit that race could've played
>a factor, but I hear
>these accusations all the time
>that leave out any Business
>factors that could've played against
>them and make it all
>race.

If race is affecting healthcare, pay, promotions, justice, and the enviroment so much that you see the effects why would it only be a factor when it comes to busniess?

>
>
>>Sounds like they did something wrong.
>>A contractor who was in
>>financial trouble was allowed to
>>get more money until he
>>finally went bankrupt and cost
>>the bank President his job.
>>Guess what he is doing
>>today, same business in another
>>state.
>
>They're not doing anything wrong, a
>contractor is going to have
>physical assets that the Bank
>can sell and this guy
>obviously had an IN with
>the Bank president, so it's
>not the same thing as
>trying to get the loan
>on your own merits. If
>the Bank President lost his
>job, it's because this person
>shouldn't have gotten the loan
>in the first place! So
>you're comparing apples to oranges.

I doubt that contractor had anything to start his business back up but I would bet any amount of money he got another loan despite everything he did. You would have to search high and low to find a Black contractor who could get away with that. It's not apples and oranges it's a white busniess man getting preferential treatment.

>
>
>Banks need to have something to
>grab if you don't pay.
>If you don't pay your
>car, they repo it. If
>you don't pay your house,
>they can foreclose on it.
>etc. etc.
>
>If a Business has no real
>assets and things dry up,
>the Bank has nothing to
>sell to recoup it's money.
>Unsecured loans are hard to
>come by, so these people
>are in fact......doing nothing wrong.
>They've failed (for good reasons)
>in getting the loan they
>need......they've gotten lines of credit
>(based on average account balances)
>but that's about it.
>
>I really think you should read
>the December 25th, issue of
>Forbes. It is mostly focused
>on how people maintain and
>build their wealth through collecting,
>investing and what not. PLUS,
>it has a good article
>on bankrupt Dot Coms and
>how the Banks are losing
>their shirts because these companies
>have no assets to sell.

I've read a little about Dot Coms going out of business.

>
>
>I think you've made some really
>good points in these posts,
>but I think you need
>to get an insiders view
>of wealth, banks and Businesses
>in general to see what's
>going on. *Some* of your
>comments sound like someone who
>has only observed, but not
>seen things from the inside.

My opinions are based on journalists who used records and did interviews with people on the inside. Some of my conclusions came from economists and conservatives I don't know how much more you have to be on the inside to separate business practices from racism.

>
>
>>That's not what I've seen. A
>>guy was hired,and promoted when
>>he could barely read.
>>He had a guy underneath
>>him doing all the work.
>>Their was other guys who
>>would lay out ,sleep during
>>on the job...etc.
>
>What size company is this? Is
>it a family business? I've
>seen this, but never on
>a numerically large scale. People
>see it and blow it
>out of porportion.


200 employees, no it's not a family business it was owned by 4 people before it got bought up by a big corporation. I think on a larger scale it just means you have more ways to cover up those getting a free ride.

>
>>But if your not wealthy and
>>white how would you know?
>>I've seen the advantages that
>>come with it, these people
>>didn't have to work, would
>>get fired and rehired,they would
>>quit and get rehired, screw
>>up one job and get
>>hired at another one, a
>>whole staff that did nothing
>>or next to nothing for
>>years. The one thing all
>>of these people had in
>>common was they were white.
>>Most didn't even have a
>>lot of money.
>
>I may not be Rich and
>White, but the vast majority
>of my friends and neighboors
>were growing up and are
>now. I don't want throw
>your words back at you,
>but since you're not rich
>and white and didn't grew
>up/live around these people, how
>can YOU know.

I heard it from the horses mouth and it matched exactly what I witnessed.

>
>When I talk to Blacks about
>it, it seems to me
>that they inflate their image
>of rich whites and the
>connections and influence they have,
>way out of porportion. I've
>had these conversations with Blacks
>in college how the White
>kids were all rich, never
>had to struggle, didn't need
>financial aid....when the opposite was
>true.

Whites always downplay their advantages and racism.

>
>Yes, *some* whites are lazy at
>work......but most Americans are lazy
>at work...it isn't a white
>thing. Blacks get busted more
>because of racism and because
>we stand out more. BUT,
>it isn't because of a
>white connected circle that looks
>out for them.

That doesn't work, if Blacks standout more they can't afford to be as lazy as whites. I've seen this first hand Blacks would come in temp busting their ass to get hired and whites would walk through the door already hired. Blacks knew that couldn't lay out or get caught goodfing off because it would cost them their job, Whites never had to worry about that. One white said shortly after getting hired, I heard you have to kill somebody to get fired from here. I never heard a black say that.

>
>You just described the average american
>worker, not someone well connected
>or powerful.

That's not the average Black worker.

>
>The whole idea is counter-productive to
>success, at some point you
>do have to deliver.....particularly at
>the big time corporate level.
>The idea that whites (particularly
>at that level) are all
>Lazy and get away with
>things because they were rich
>and/or have connections is wrong.
>Most workers get away with
>being lazy, because they would
>just be replaced by more
>lazy people.

Not Blacks from what I've seen they would be replaced by whites. The blacks who came in and did their job everyday had to cover for the whites who didn't.

>
>But at higher levels of corporate
>America, I work with too
>many well of white folks
>that bust their ass on
>a regular.

I've seen mangement that was worse, whites would go after Blacks in charge because they wanted to replace them or because the Blacks made the whites work.

>Yeah, we've got the ONE guy
>we need to cover for.
>But his charisma does come
>in handy when we talk
>to clients, so I have
>to give him that. BUT,
>there is that one guy.
>The rest of us are
>in at 7 and gone
>no earlier then 6.

I've seen Blacks working 6 days a week while whites who laid out half the time anyway were given days off.

>
>
>>>I agree with most of what
>>>you said in your post,
>>>I just think you overestimate
>>>the advantag of being White
>>>or being White and Rich.
>>
>>I doubt it. If I was
>>wrong we would see the
>>same advantages and disadvantages across
>>the board no matter what
>>color.
>
>Overestimate, Overestimate....look at that word. That
>means that I see the
>advantages/disadvantages.....I just don't see them
>at the magnitude you do.
>I live in the world
>of affluent whites and I
>don't see them having things
>1/2 as easy as you
>think.

Yeah I see the word but I've read where people use the same language to say, yeah racism exist but it's not that bad.

>
>Whites treat each other fair, but
>they don't neccessarily favor them......they're
>the majority how do the
>favor one white guy or
>another? It LOOKs that way,
>because they hold us in
>disfavor.....so the net difference =
>favoring whites.....when they're really just
>treating each other fairly.

If they were just treating whites fair they would not bend the rules for them which is what I see. They bend over backwards and go out of their way to make sure whites recieve the best I don't call that just treating each other fair.

>
>
>>The redlining in the Steeltowns in
>>PA, was that before or
>>after all the factories started
>>closing? I think it's a
>>mistake to ignore racism given
>>it's long and documented history.
>> This is not just
>>taking place in poor communities.
>
>After, they were a lot more
>banks in the Steeltowns or
>in the poor parts of
>towns before the factories started
>closing. Some of these towns
>have NEW banks starting up
>in the wealthier areas, while
>banks are closing down in
>the poor ones.
>
>If it's in wealthy Black communities
>I'd call it racism. If
>it's in poor communities where
>they aren't likely to make
>money or not what they
>would make someplace else, I
>don't call it racism because
>there are several Business reasons
>not to do business there.

I understand not opening business in poor communities clearly. They are not at issue here. It's the middle class on up that's a problem

>
>
>>I've read about that but I
>>know about banks that are
>>doing good too.
>
>A lot of them aren't though,
>and when you look at
>the profits of the ones
>that are doing "good" you
>still see much higher default
>rates on loans, low deposits
>and the reasons most White
>Banks don't want to do
>Business in Black neighboorhoods...it's a
>huge financial issue that a
>lot of Blacks ignore.
>
>
>
>>Not really, the devil is in
>>the details and I'm sure
>>their is a lot more
>>below the surface. Excuses like
>>these are used all the
>>time to explain away racism.
>>You always here the cop
>>thought his life was in
>>danger, after he kills an
>>unarmed man. I have read
>>articles where Blacks were singled
>>out for something everyone was
>>doing when it comes to
>>credit.
>
>There is a difference between Racism
>and a good reason. "I'm
>sure there is more below
>the surface isn't valid, unless
>you know what's there"

It's not out in the open or obvious, in fact some of the biggesst articles were based on records gathered from banks because of laws that make them keep track of race so those watching can tell whether they are complying with the law. Right now Ward Connerly is fighting collecting data like that because it exposes racism. Texaco is the perfect example up until the tape they did not admit anything. When it comes to enviromental racism, corporations deny their is a problem despite the fact that people are getting the same illness that the chemicals in this plants produce. The reach of racism is long and we can't discount what is going on just because the proof is not there yet.

>
>If Black Owned Banks in Harlem,
>Boston and West Philly are
>in serious trouble, why the
>heck would a white bank
>stay open there and/or want
>to open up a branch
>there? Racism be damned, there
>is a serious economic issue
>here.

Good question ask the people behind gentrification.


>
>Let's take away race.
>
>A Bank asks me to determine
>if doing business in an
>area is a good idea.
>So I look at the
>average income of the people
>in the area, I look
>at their average home value,
>I look at how many
>of the citizens own homes,
>I look at the financial
>strength of the Banks in
>the area, particularly ones that
>focus ONLY on that area
>(or similar ones) so that
>the banks results are affected
>by the fact that they
>business in more profitable areas.
>
>
>I find the average income to
>be 18k, I find that
>the average home value is
>50k, I find that average
>person does not own their
>home, I find that the
>bank that focuses on that
>area just ousted their CEO/Founder,
>hasn't made any money for
>its stockholders, has sky high
>default rates on it's loans,
>deposits are dropping and they
>had to make a deal
>with the FDIC, because of
>the low amount of cash
>on deposit.
>
>I look at another area, average
>home value is 275k, average
>income is 72k, average person
>owns their home. The local
>bank is doing great.
>
>I just described West Philly and
>united national bank in the
>first example and Villanova, PA
>and Bryn Mawr trust in
>the second.
>
>So which place is a better
>place to do business if
>you're a bank?

The second place of course. This could all be 100% true but Given the CIA helping push drugs into the inner city, the L.A. police rampart scandal, Tuskeegee I wouldn't put anything past what racists will do to destroy the Black community or at least keep us divided.

>
>Is it now fair to recognize
>race as a factor, but
>realize the need to focus
>on economics since even if
>race wasn't a factor they
>probably wouldn't/shouldn't do business there
>anyway?

It's plenty of Black communities that do not fall into the it's too risky to do business there excuse for not investing.

>
>>I agree and I understand someone
>>from a poor neighborhood is
>>more of a risk then
>>someone from a middles calss
>>neighborhood, but here is the
>>problem, all of the evidence
>>points to redlining taking place
>>across income levels. So it's
>>not just the poor neighborhoods.
>
>I don't think it's redlining if
>it's a poor area, since
>it happens to whites too.

According to the law it is. There were many laws that came out of the Civil Rights era aimed at eliminating racial segregation and discrimination in all aspects of American society. Among them were the Fair Housing Act and the Equal Credit Opportunity Act guaranteeing minorities equal access to housing and to the financing to afford it. Widespread noncompliance with these laws was the order of the day and the nation continued its historical pattern of segregated housing as financial institutions denied mortgage loans to African Americans. This practice, known as redlining, is defined as the refusal by financial institutions to make mortgage loans to residents of certain neighborhoods because of the racial composition, income level of the residents or age of the housing stock.


>
>
>I haven't seen it in wealthier
>ones.

It was seen here. A 1995 investigative story by U.S. News & World Report came to this conclusion based on a sixmonth investigation of banking, lending, and home insurance coverage in poor and minority neighborhoods. The report was based on analysis of 24 million mortgage records, nine sets of banking and insurance industry data and 200 interviews in 12 cities. The investigation demonstrates that not much has changed. Minorities of all income levels are denied mortgages and home insurance coverage at more than twice the rate of Whites with comparable incomes.. "The New Redlining," U.S. News & World Report, April 17, 1995

>
>
>>This is not true but I
>>agree it is important to
>>understand the system. It's
>>not only brothas & sistas
>>making these charges. Redlining has
>>been investigated and reviewed by
>>journalist and politicans if racism
>>was not there and this
>>was only Business no one
>>could make it be there.
>
>Incorrect, people always make this about
>race/poverty. They never take the
>economics issue into account. It's
>liberals running to scream oppression.
>(not that I consider myself
>conservatives, but it's just what
>I see). These journalists scream
>redlining (for ratings) and in
>areas were Businesses are failing,
>how is that not Business?

Wall Street Journal also did a piece on it, I wouldn't call that a liberal newspaper. This piece seems to go deeper then just screaming for redlining By far, the most wellknown and successful investigative reporting on redlining was done for the "The Color of Money" project. The Atlanta Journal and Constitution won the 1988 Pulitzer Prize for this series on redlining in Atlanta's AfricanAmerican neighborhoods. Written by Bill Dedman, the series ran between May 1 and 16. Dedman used database reporting and help from university researchers to document how Atlanta banks routinely discriminated against middleclass AfricanAmerican applicants for housing loans. Some of the legislation that was passed involded Republicans they voted for it when I'm sure they could have blocked it.

>
>
>PLUS, time and time again...if Business
>and Banks come back, they
>have support from the government
>to make sure it becomes
>profitable.
>
>Furthermore, if Brothas/Sistas are blaming racism
>on things that are Business......they
>NEED to know how to
>tell the difference.

It's not just brothas and sistas just like it's not just poor neighborhoods where this is taking place. People are using records from the banks that they are accusing. We are talking 6 month investigations. Given that SOME brothas and sistas have a LIFETIME of racism to judge what it is and what isn't racism, I think they can tell the difference. The black man that I used as an example had years of experience in business.

>
>There are many different sides to
>the redlining issue, SOME are
>valid.....OTHERS are not. The problem
>is that descriminatory lending practices
>of a middle class Black,
>are seen as the same
>as banks not wanting to
>work with people in areas
>that will probably cause them
>to lose money. It's apples
>and oranges and progress is
>being affected by people ignoring
>the economic issues and merely
>focusing on the racial ones.

Yes their is two sides to every story but that does not mean racism is not there. US& News World report a six month investigation based on analysis of 24 million mortgage records, nine sets of banking and insurance industry data and 200 interviews in 12 cities demonstrates that not much has changed. Minorities of all income levels are denied mortgages and home insurance coverage at more than twice the rate of Whites with comparable incomes..


>
>
>
>
>Peace,
>
>
>
>
>
>M2


"I must warn you, ma'am, that people invariably flee the room when I walk in because I'm from Levittown"

"And what a spectacular act of noblesse oblige on her part to escort the lowly Levittowner around Washington on Inauguration Day!"

"If one were sufficiently paranoid, one might easily misinterpret a decision to go get seconds on that chicken hash as a deliberate insult to the municipality of Levittown."

"Close examination of the guest list reveals many other guests with backgrounds more humble than Bill O'Reilly's. Yes, even more humble than an accountant's son from Levittown. We can only hope that they didn't take offense when O'Reilly himself departed."

I'm working-class Irish American Bill O'Reilly … pretty far down the social totem pole," he says. Growing up in the 1960s, he watched his father "exhausting himself commuting from Levittown" to work as an accountant for an oil company. Dad "never made more than $35,000"—which would be $100,000 or more in today's money