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Subject: "Black folk need to quit bitchin'" This topic is locked.
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BooDaah
Charter member
32690 posts
Tue May-29-01 08:44 AM

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"Black folk need to quit bitchin'"


          

anybody read the "top black businesses" issue of Black Enterprise?

"we" have a whole lotta money folwing through our biggies (and this avoid mom-and-pops).

ah, for the day when we USE this power.

i'm about to join the club that feels like we can no longer say "we don't have access" to the kind of capital/resources/skills that will help us be self sufficient

whatcha think?

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
ayi kwei armah
utamaroho
May 29th 2001
1
M2
utamaroho
May 29th 2001
3
the point though
May 29th 2001
5
SOLARUS:
utamaroho
May 29th 2001
9
again
May 29th 2001
17
      make the system work for us?
utamaroho
May 29th 2001
22
           destroy it??
May 29th 2001
27
           i was going to clarify this
utamaroho
May 29th 2001
30
           RE: make the system work for us?
May 29th 2001
39
                RE: make the system work for us?
May 29th 2001
40
                RE: make the system work for us?
May 29th 2001
49
                too much to type out...
utamaroho
May 29th 2001
45
                     RE: too much to type out...
May 29th 2001
48
                          RE: too much to type out...
May 29th 2001
52
                          your wrong and right
May 30th 2001
53
                               RE: your wrong and right
May 30th 2001
68
                                    HELL YEAH!
utamaroho
May 30th 2001
69
                                         NO HE IS WRONG
May 30th 2001
73
                                              Furthermore
May 30th 2001
75
                                              RE: NO HE IS WRONG
utamaroho
May 30th 2001
76
                                              RE: NO HE IS WRONG
May 30th 2001
78
                                                   goof point...
utamaroho
May 30th 2001
79
                                                   those advance took place
May 30th 2001
80
                                                        RE: those advance took place
May 30th 2001
83
                                                             why not?
utamaroho
May 30th 2001
84
                                                                  RE: why not?
May 30th 2001
85
                                                                  RE: why not?
May 30th 2001
88
                                                                       RE: why not?
May 30th 2001
91
                                                                       RE: why not?
May 30th 2001
92
                                                                       that is culture...
utamaroho
May 30th 2001
93
                                                                       RE: that is culture...
May 30th 2001
94
                                                                  If the mindstate
May 30th 2001
87
                          RE: too much to type out...
May 31st 2001
95
true
May 29th 2001
10
      how?
utamaroho
May 29th 2001
12
      exactly
May 29th 2001
18
      the essence of dark-skinned white people
May 29th 2001
21
           cultural context
May 29th 2001
24
           RE: the essence of dark-skinned white people
utamaroho
May 29th 2001
25
      i say
May 29th 2001
23
you just dont get it...
May 29th 2001
8
      RESOURCES
utamaroho
May 29th 2001
16
Oh my dear god...
May 29th 2001
2
inspiring, but then again...
utamaroho
May 29th 2001
6
RE: inspiring, but then again...
May 29th 2001
13
RE: inspiring, but then again...
utamaroho
May 29th 2001
19
      RE: inspiring, but then again...
May 29th 2001
29
UR harsh words are not afforded...
May 30th 2001
55
      How do you form NATION without ENOUGH soldiers to protect it?
utamaroho
May 30th 2001
57
glibness aside
May 29th 2001
7
      there has to be a goal....
utamaroho
May 29th 2001
11
      survival
May 29th 2001
20
           it saddens me that...
utamaroho
May 29th 2001
26
                don't sleep
May 29th 2001
28
                     i know what you mean
utamaroho
May 29th 2001
32
                     RE: don't sleep
May 29th 2001
50
                          Pretty Much n/m
May 30th 2001
56
                          u folk r sticklers
May 30th 2001
58
                               EXACTLY
utamaroho
May 30th 2001
59
      DUH!!!
May 29th 2001
14
      duh pt.2
May 29th 2001
15
      RE: glibness aside
May 29th 2001
51
I read it
May 29th 2001
4
Thoughts/Perspective/Myopia
May 29th 2001
31
my thing though
May 29th 2001
33
thanks for the correction
utamaroho
May 29th 2001
35
RE: Thoughts/Perspective/Myopia
May 29th 2001
36
RE: Thoughts/Perspective/Myopia
May 29th 2001
38
RE: Thoughts/Perspective/Myopia
May 29th 2001
41
couldn't have said it better
May 29th 2001
37
      RE: couldn't have said it better
May 29th 2001
42
           RE: couldn't have said it better
May 29th 2001
43
                everyone uses NS
May 29th 2001
44
RE: Black folk need to quit bitchin'
okayheckler
May 29th 2001
34
RE: Black folk need to quit bitchin'
May 29th 2001
46
RE: Black folk need to quit bitchin'
May 29th 2001
47
not the place
May 30th 2001
54
Don't mean to support this digression, but...
May 30th 2001
62
OK OK we know the problems,
May 30th 2001
60
wow!
utamaroho
May 30th 2001
61
very x-files of you
May 30th 2001
64
      but none of this is anything new......
utamaroho
May 30th 2001
65
      tried that
May 30th 2001
66
      ok, here goes...
utamaroho
May 30th 2001
67
      RE: but none of this is anything new......
May 30th 2001
72
           i'm trying to run Cisco one day...
utamaroho
May 30th 2001
74
           RE: i'm trying to run Cisco one day...
May 30th 2001
81
                RE: i'm trying to run Cisco one day...
utamaroho
May 30th 2001
82
                     RE: i'm trying to run Cisco one day...
May 30th 2001
89
                          i wanna be a consultant now...
utamaroho
May 30th 2001
90
           so...
May 30th 2001
77
      Word
May 30th 2001
70
           RE: Word
May 30th 2001
71
RE: Black folk need to quit bitchin'
May 30th 2001
63
RE: Black folk need to quit bitchin'
andromeda531
May 30th 2001
86

utamaroho

Tue May-29-01 08:49 AM

  
1. "ayi kwei armah"
In response to Reply # 0


          

wish you'd been at the lecture...

he spoke about what HAS to happen rightn now. i.e. creating the ability to generate capital that will be used for resources to provide self-sufficiency. for example: participating within this capitalistic game in order to get to a point where we aren't dependent on it. gaining RESOURCES, not money, that will carry us on for the next hundred generations to come...



(((((PEACE)))))
________________________________________________________________
"Adversity causes some men to break, others to break records." -Anonymous

"Pain is weakness leaving the body." -A Navy SEALS Saying

"Fall seven times, stand up eight." -Japanese Proverb

"The conciousness of self is the greatest hindrance to the proper execution of all physical action." -Bruce Lee

  

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utamaroho

Tue May-29-01 08:55 AM

  
3. "M2"
In response to Reply # 1


          

i think posted on how some of his indian coworkers might take a job that pays well over what they might want to do,ONLY because through it, capital can be generated to free the next generation up from menial work and go towards education to continue the cycle of wealth generation. thinking down the line is ESSENTIAL.

one example why solarus and i might seem, nevermind ARE anti-western. anyone thinking for the here and now and immediate gratification, would never do this (think/do with respect to generations to come). cultural/mental changes lead to the physical behaviors that lead to solutions.

we ned resources which are available. but the only way to "see" them is by changing the way we think/do.


(((((PEACE)))))
________________________________________________________________
"Adversity causes some men to break, others to break records." -Anonymous

"Pain is weakness leaving the body." -A Navy SEALS Saying

"Fall seven times, stand up eight." -Japanese Proverb

"The conciousness of self is the greatest hindrance to the proper execution of all physical action." -Bruce Lee

  

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BooDaah
Charter member
32690 posts
Tue May-29-01 08:56 AM

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5. "the point though"
In response to Reply # 1


          

seriously. you gotta flip through that issue.

it bugged me out.

the top company made 800 million as a technology firm

they proke it down by industries (though a large number were car dealerships), and after all is said and read i'm left thinking "if only we could pool this"

i've had myriad discussions about what athletes, and other "stars" should do with their money

but then i look at cat's like the OWNERS of these comanies and the ball is suddenly rocketed into the stratusphere of what we COULD do

we have resources.

we just spend too much of it on foreign cars, sneakers, and "trivialities"

  

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utamaroho

Tue May-29-01 09:02 AM

  
9. "SOLARUS:"
In response to Reply # 5


          

something he brought ot my atention last night on the phone...

black economics DOES NOT EXIST, black capitaliss WTF?!?

you're a capitalist (within western concept/practice of the word) that happens to be black and from ann afrikan standpoint have no place within liberation!

black economics is just a subset of the GREATER ECONOMIC structure, some black people are just better at it than others. do we need to sacrifice ideal goals in the process of finding economic empowerment within THEIR game??? (Their=western construct of capitalism)



(((((PEACE)))))
________________________________________________________________
"Adversity causes some men to break, others to break records." -Anonymous

"Pain is weakness leaving the body." -A Navy SEALS Saying

"Fall seven times, stand up eight." -Japanese Proverb

"The conciousness of self is the greatest hindrance to the proper execution of all physical action." -Bruce Lee

  

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urbgriot
Charter member
11445 posts
Tue May-29-01 09:13 AM

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17. "again"
In response to Reply # 9


          

this is a double edge sword. true to some degree but there is one thing. We invented this. there is no system that Afrikans have not implemented in their civilizations first. Capitalism is just a Euro version of the trade systems originated in Afrika.

We live in this system and inorder to make a better playing field for our us and our children we have to make the system work for us.

peace..

https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

  

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utamaroho

Tue May-29-01 09:29 AM

  
22. "make the system work for us?"
In response to Reply # 17


          

that's like (as AYI ARMAH SAID) "hermit crabs looking for a home in a shell and adopting the shell as home. we shouldn't be as so. why become the custodians of something that doesn't work? this way just DOESN'T work (SEE: 2000 Seasons). Destroy it or at least admit that you're a part of it and as such, non-afrikan."


(((((PEACE)))))
________________________________________________________________
"Adversity causes some men to break, others to break records." -Anonymous

"Pain is weakness leaving the body." -A Navy SEALS Saying

"Fall seven times, stand up eight." -Japanese Proverb

"The conciousness of self is the greatest hindrance to the proper execution of all physical action." -Bruce Lee

  

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urbgriot
Charter member
11445 posts
Tue May-29-01 09:46 AM

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27. "destroy it??"
In response to Reply # 22


          

U make it sound like we have to round up the village and burn the town down. It is not that easy.
MINDSTATES is what I speak of. Taking steps. NonAfrikan "Wealth is Afrikan" "Trade is Afrikan" "Resources is Afrikan". It is how it's done not that it's done. We can use the system to our advantage it is easier to do that, hell Asians do it, Middle Easterns do it, We make excuses. that's bullshit. we can do it and do it better...

We have to stop destroying others for their achievement in this system simply because their ideals are not the same. Expertise and M2 (well M2 more than Expertise) probaly represent the majority of Afrikans out here. There are not bad, they just have not gotten to the point were you are and may never get to that point, but there is still one common goal. Yes I agree the Motherland tells us of our culture and we have to strive to reobtain reconnect with that, but we have to take steps. not leaps.

peace..

https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

  

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utamaroho

Tue May-29-01 09:50 AM

  
30. "i was going to clarify this"
In response to Reply # 27


          

"destroy it" WITHIN. if everybody could do this, then...

leave the physical destruction to me!


(((((PEACE)))))
________________________________________________________________
"Adversity causes some men to break, others to break records." -Anonymous

"Pain is weakness leaving the body." -A Navy SEALS Saying

"Fall seven times, stand up eight." -Japanese Proverb

"The conciousness of self is the greatest hindrance to the proper execution of all physical action." -Bruce Lee

  

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M2
Charter member
10072 posts
Tue May-29-01 10:19 AM

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39. "RE: make the system work for us?"
In response to Reply # 22


          

It's not the system, it's the people

It's not the system, it's the people

It's not the system, it's the people

It's not the system, it's the people

The mere fact that you build a large company and make Billions isn't significant, it's HOW you do it that is. Are you fair? Are you honest? Do you lie? Do you cheat? Do you steal? Do you exploit the environment or people?

This is an ethical discussion, not a cultural one.

There are whites who have Built Billions who aren't cheating people or exploiting or opressing them, why? Because they have ethics.

Warren Buffet is going to leave his Billion dollar fortune (#3 in the world based on value, probably #1 based on liquidity) to charity..it all goes to charity when he dies. Not a dime goes to his kids..

This isn't about being Afrikan or European. Afrikans were the first to create Capitalism (as Urbgriot already pointed out) the Europeans are copying us!

It's not about culture either, it's about how you conduct yourself when you build your Business.

So since the first empires were Afrikan, I'm going to keep it real and build my empire. I'm just not going to shit on people on my way up, first and foremost I'm going to take care of me my family, then I'm going to take care of other Blacks....they'll know that they can work for me and get paid fairly and not get passed over.

It may not be the Afrikan philosophy that Solarus and Utamaharo preach, but it will help the Black community and that's what's important.

It's time for us to stop fighting over niggling things like this and focus on economic empowerment and empowerment in general. Afrika isn't a monolith, it's the most diverse place on earth....there are diverging ideas and ideologies there as well. Let's accept it and move on.....we all want the same stuff in the end.

Furthermore, being a success is not a European concept....nor is making a lot of money...IMHO that's a trap that a lot of Blacks fall into, because they're only used to seeing Whites as the economically successful ones.

Trust me, we do this right.....we teach Blacks how to manage and make money.....add that to the fact that we increase our Business Revenues and Yearly incomes about 3x as fast as the economy in General and/or White people......our Grandkids will say to their friends:

"You'd better stop acting white and get better grades"

"You'd better stop acting white and invest your money better"

We have a long way to go.....BUT we have the resources and ability to get there......and IMHO due in a way that is better and more community orientated then how whites do it.

Just my opinion.


Peace,





M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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AZ
Charter member
12930 posts
Tue May-29-01 10:23 AM

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40. "RE: make the system work for us?"
In response to Reply # 39


          

Humane capitalism...that's an oxymoran

  

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M2
Charter member
10072 posts
Tue May-29-01 08:53 PM

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49. "RE: make the system work for us?"
In response to Reply # 40


          


#1. Myth: Capitalism = Exploitation.

#2. If you really believe that, quit your job and live in the woods. You work for a living, you're a capitalist.

#3. It's people who exploit, not capitalism......


#4. People not the system, people not the system, people not the system, people not the system.


#5. Peace,





M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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utamaroho

Tue May-29-01 11:20 AM

  
45. "too much to type out..."
In response to Reply # 39


          

i wih i could call yall and explain some things...

>>This isn't about being Afrikan or European. Afrikans were the first to create Capitalism (as Urbgriot already pointed out) the Europeans are copying us!

afrikans created capitalism?!? where? if you happen to find an example of this please share, but before you do read the ayi kwei armah post.

>>It may not be the Afrikan philosophy that Solarus and Utamaharo preach, but it will help the Black community and that's what's important.

i thnk you are sincere, but listen to history and elders who've seen this tried and failed. you pointed out that we truly haven't arrived yet economically, you're right. but think faster and farther, accelerate your ideas, and see possible flaws. what we "preach" is success without compromise. not success with the possiblility of failure/asimilation/etc.


>>Afrika isn't a monolith, it's the most diverse place on earth....there are diverging ideas and ideologies there as well. Let's accept it and move on.....we all want the same stuff in the end.

not everybody, remember, different people have different standards, some none at all. someone wanting money and power will pollute an ocean without thinking twice, another would build a mosque while the bulders and community finds it hard to feed itself. remeber mistakes of the past and build upon them.

>>Afrika isn't a monolith, it's the most diverse place on earth...

africa the continent and afrikan thought are two totally different things.



(((((PEACE)))))
________________________________________________________________
"Adversity causes some men to break, others to break records." -Anonymous

"Pain is weakness leaving the body." -A Navy SEALS Saying

"Fall seven times, stand up eight." -Japanese Proverb

"The conciousness of self is the greatest hindrance to the proper execution of all physical action." -Bruce Lee

  

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M2
Charter member
10072 posts
Tue May-29-01 08:51 PM

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48. "RE: too much to type out..."
In response to Reply # 45


          


>afrikans created capitalism?!? where? if you
>happen to find an example
>of this please share, but
>before you do read the
>ayi kwei armah post.

Capitalism: A system of exchanging some form of currency for goods, services and/or commodities. Also a system whereby people can accumulate wealth in the form of goods, services, property, etc.

Our ancestors sold gold to the europeans = capitalism
Our ancestors trade systems = capitalism
Ancient Pharoah's of egypt: gold, their possessions, their kingdoms = Capitalism

I think you see Capitalism as a system that exploits the weak for profit, while I see exploitation as the actions of evil men...not a function of capitalism itself.

No matter what kind of government/culture/belief system you have, you will have people exchanging X for Y....you will have people accumulating X so that they can acquire Y. As long as you have that.......you have capitalism.

A janitor pushing a Broom to make $10/hour and Bill Gates are BOTH capitalists......Bill Gates is just better at it.

How you make money OR X so that you can acquire Y is important, E.g. Ethics and how you treat people....do you take and then give? Or do you give and then Take.

John Audette, not a famous Internet Businessmen A'La Jeff Bezos of Amazon....but a very successful one in his own right. Particularly since most people are copying his Business Techniques.....and all of his Businesses were profitable and never needed to go public....anyway, I digress........he said something that I've never forgetten "To build a successful Business, you have to GIVE then Take"

Give then take.......that means that you never really took in the first place. You GAVE something and earned something in return.

Capitalism isn't evil by nature, evil men can make it so.......

Furthermore, Africans/Afrikans/Black folks.....did it first.



>>>It may not be the Afrikan philosophy that Solarus and Utamaharo preach, but it will help the Black community and that's what's important.
>
>i thnk you are sincere, but
>listen to history and elders
>who've seen this tried and
>failed. you pointed out that
>we truly haven't arrived yet
>economically, you're right. but think
>faster and farther, accelerate your
>ideas, and see possible flaws.
>what we "preach" is success
>without compromise. not success with
>the possiblility of failure/asimilation/etc.

Tried and Failed? No offense but you can't be serious, failure doesn't mean you don't stop trying.

Success without comprimise? Comprising what? If Blacks build economic strength ethically and take care of their families and break the cycle of generational poverty and all that leads to...what's the problem.

A cultural one that doesn't want capitalism?

People are diverse, not everyone will EVEN want to do things your way. It's hard to convince people to do otherwise without the threat of say eternal damnation or convincing them they are hurting people.

Success without the possibility of failure?.......again....no offense, but you can't be serious. I think you get this from people who've said something along the lines of: "that what enslaves you, cannot make you free" or something to that effect. That's wrong......if you take control of what enslaves you....it can't enslave you if you control it. In other words, Blacks cannot be economic victims/slaves if they control their economics. E.g. If I own my house, I don't care if my neighboorhood is gentrified....I'll benefit and I won't be forced out like people who are renting.

Take it further, economics did not enslave Blacks so many years ago...PEOPLE did......separate the actions of man from.....from goals/concepts/resources.

Take it even further, lack of power is the reason we were enslaved....lack of power to smite one's enemies. What's the biggest source of power in this day and age? MONEY.

"Elders who have tried and failed" economic empowerment? Irrelevant, not enough Blacks have reached that point to make a judgement....so saying that even though we haven't arrived that my thoughts on economic empowerment and empowerment in everyone's own way will fail.....is a big premature.

Everyone won't/doesn't/doesn't have to think like you, what people need to think about is taking control of their lives and having the ability to make choices......on how to live.

Slavery ended less then 140 years ago, the civil rights act was signed 38 years ago. At this point, what we do know is that our economics are effed.......we know how others have improved their standing and economics....so let's do that. It's too early to say that things will or won't fail......nor is pointing out that some people don't give back relevant to judging the validity of a strategy....if wealthy Blacks aren't giving back it doesn't mean Blacks shouldn't attain wealth....it means you shouldn't attain wealth and not give back.


There is no such thing as success without comprimise or possibility of failure.......or a monolothic ideaology to use to accomplish a goal.....the New Afrikan-American culture will evolve based on several ideas from several people.....not ONE idea or way of doing things. The hope is that there is an aggregate goal or idea, right now I'm talking about economic empowerment...and if 10 people have 10 ways to get there that are ethical...GOOD.....that's the way it should be.

>
>
>>>Afrika isn't a monolith, it's the most diverse place on earth....there are diverging ideas and ideologies there as well. Let's accept it and move on.....we all want the same stuff in the end.
>
>not everybody, remember, different people have
>different standards, some none at
>all. someone wanting money and
>power will pollute an ocean
>without thinking twice, another would
>build a mosque while the
>bulders and community finds it
>hard to feed itself. remeber
>mistakes of the past and
>build upon them.
>
>>>Afrika isn't a monolith, it's the most diverse place on earth...
>
>africa the continent and afrikan thought
>are two totally different things.

Afrikan thought is NOT a monolithic concept, they are vastly different religions, ideologies, philosophies and perspectives on the continent.

Just ask people who were born there, live there.....Africa the monolith is something that Afrikan-Americans have created.....I know you disagree, but if you travel to africa and/or really talk to people from different countries you'll see pronounced differences.

Not everyone wants exactly the same thing, but it's smarter to push people towards helping themselves, being more self sufficient, not being in a position of weakness......then trying to create a homogenus Black Nation.....it just won't work......it's impossible.

You control extremes that hurt everyone in a way that most people agree with.....e.g. environmental issues.....and leave the middle alone.

I think you're seeing this as ONE way, a concrete plan that has to be followed and you already know that won't work......that's why you work and function and build success in the western system you hate.

Besides, we all know that it has roots in Afrikan cultures anyway.


Peace,






M2



The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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AZ
Charter member
12930 posts
Tue May-29-01 09:23 PM

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52. "RE: too much to type out..."
In response to Reply # 48


          

>I think you see Capitalism as
>a system that exploits the
>weak for profit, while I
>see exploitation as the actions
>of evil men...not a function
>of capitalism itself.

Capitalism = Exploitation is a Marxist concept. In reality, if the market determines the wage/price etc., then there is technically, no exploitation (including those making pennies a day, making soccer balls in Pakistan). Unfortunately, in reality, the market will leave some of in very, very poor conditions and others in very, very rich conditions. If you want capitalism, there is no other way about it. Of course, humane capitalism has been tried throughout the world, especially in Latin America and Africa. Unfortunately, these experiments have failed miserabley, and required a step away from true free market capitalism in order to even be attempted.



>No matter what kind of government/culture/belief
>system you have, you will
>have people exchanging X for
>Y....you will have people accumulating
>X so that they can
>acquire Y. As long as
>you have that.......you have capitalism.

as long as you have private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market...you have capitalism.

The main point here, is that those with the most resources, get the most goods (ie the free market).

>How you make money OR X
>so that you can acquire
>Y is important, E.g. Ethics
>and how you treat people....do
>you take and then give?
>Or do you give and
>then Take.

Your talking on a very simplistic micro micro level. The economic system has a life of its own. Not to mention how the economic system shapes our own ethics.


>Capitalism isn't evil by nature, evil
>men can make it so.......

It is "evil" by nature because it puts money above all other things (ie efficiency in economic theory) thereby necessarily leading to "evil" results.


>Take it further, economics did not
>enslave Blacks so many years
>ago...PEOPLE did......separate the actions of
>man from.....from goals/concepts/resources.

The economic system shaped the actions/ethics/goals of people/enslavers. The enslavers acted in a certain way because it profited them.

>Besides, we all know that it
>has roots in Afrikan cultures
>anyway.

I thought collectivism and community were a large part of African cultures? These ideas go against capitalism which focuses on private property and competition.





In capitalism, there will always be a large group of poor people. Maybe you feel, as long as they're not Black, it's OK. In which case, I can understand your support of the capitalist system, because Blacks COULD theoretically take the place of another group. In that case you're no different than those who are currently in power and causing suffering on a mass scale.

  

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urbgriot
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53. "your wrong and right"
In response to Reply # 52


          

>Capitalism = Exploitation is a Marxist
>concept. In reality, if the
>market determines the wage/price etc.,
>then there is technically, no
>exploitation (including those making pennies
>a day, making soccer balls
>in Pakistan). Unfortunately, in reality,
>the market will leave some
>of in very, very poor
>conditions and others in very,
>very rich conditions. If you
>want capitalism, there is no
>other way about it. Of
>course, humane capitalism has been
>tried throughout the world, especially
>in Latin America and Africa.
>Unfortunately, these experiments have failed
>miserabley, and required a step
>away from true free market
>capitalism in order to even
>be attempted.

If you use a true free market economy then that disparity would not happen. In lassier faire economy the when wages/prices shift
the peoples work shift accordingly. Therefore there would never be people in total poverty, because everyone works. However there are no true lassier faire market economies, the closest one is in Hong Kong and we know how they are suffering...

>as long as you have private
>or corporate ownership of capital
>goods, by investments that are
>determined by private decision, and
>by prices, production, and the
>distribution of goods that are
>determined mainly by competition in
>a free market...you have capitalism.

That is not capitalism. If you really want to break it down your definition of capitalism is incorrect. And market econmies existed long before capitalism was defined in theory.

>The main point here, is that
>those with the most resources,
>get the most goods (ie
>the free market).

not correct. (I will attempt to break it down later)

>Your talking on a very simplistic
>micro micro level. The economic
>system has a life of
>its own. Not to mention
>how the economic system shapes
>our own ethics.

Markets grow with the demands of the people. This is why market economies work so effectively the strenght in the economy relies on the demands of the people. Everytning else is built around that demand.

>>Capitalism isn't evil by nature, evil
>>men can make it so.......
>
>It is "evil" by nature because
>it puts money above all
>other things (ie efficiency in
>economic theory) thereby necessarily leading
>to "evil" results.

No a culture puts money over everything. Again market economies are nothing new, Europeans put there cultural slant on them.

>>Take it further, economics did not
>>enslave Blacks so many years
>>ago...PEOPLE did......separate the actions of
>>man from.....from goals/concepts/resources.
>
>The economic system shaped the actions/ethics/goals
>of people/enslavers. The enslavers acted
>in a certain way because
>it profited them.

No there culture did. Slavery existed in Afrika, but never in the manner inwhich Europeans used it. Check Uta post on Walking Destruction for better illustrations on how culture can dictates actions.


>>Besides, we all know that it
>>has roots in Afrikan cultures
>>anyway.

>I thought collectivism and community were
>a large part of African
>cultures? These ideas go against
>capitalism which focuses on private
>property and competition.

Correct on the aspect of Afrikan culture. Incorrect with the definition on capitalism.

>In capitalism, there will always be
>a large group of poor
>people. Maybe you feel, as
>long as they're not Black,
>it's OK. In which case,
>I can understand your support
>of the capitalist system, because
>Blacks COULD theoretically take the
>place of another group. In
>that case you're no different
>than those who are currently
>in power and causing suffering
>on a mass scale.

That not Afrikan....


https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

  

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AZ
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Wed May-30-01 06:52 AM

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68. "RE: your wrong and right"
In response to Reply # 53


          

look up capitalism in the dictionary and you will find that my definition is the correct one. The main basis of capitalism is
1. private property
2. market determination of prices
3. competition.

>If you use a true free
>market economy then that disparity
>would not happen. In lassier
>faire economy the when wages/prices
>shift
>the peoples work shift accordingly. Therefore
>there would never be people
>in total poverty, because everyone
>works. However there are no
>true lassier faire market economies,
>the closest one is in
>Hong Kong and we know
>how they are suffering...

Are you kidding? A true lassier faire economy would lead to mass suffering, even the most conservative economist would agree to that.

>Markets grow with the demands of
>the people. This is why
>market economies work so effectively
>the strenght in the economy
>relies on the demands of
>the people. Everytning else is
>built around that demand.

Market economies work so effectively? The 3 richest people in the world have more money than the poorest 600 MILLION. Yeah capitalism is definitely efficient, but that doesn't make it better.



>>The main point here, is that
>>those with the most resources,
>>get the most goods (ie
>>the free market).
>
>not correct. (I will attempt to
>break it down later)
>
I have to disagree with you again. The Solow growth model suggests that capital moves from areas which are capital abundant to areas which are capital deficient. The problem is that the opposite has been shown to be true. Check D. Quoah's paper on "the Twin Peaks" theory. He shows that capital begets more capital, and those without capital will continue to not have capital. Thereby creating peaks in the world of capital-rich and capital-poor.

If you have economic theory to back up your claims, I would like to hear them.

  

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utamaroho

Wed May-30-01 06:56 AM

  
69. "HELL YEAH!"
In response to Reply # 68


          

>>Market economies work so effectively? The 3 richest people in the world have more money than the poorest 600 MILLION. Yeah capitalism is definitely efficient, but that doesn't make it better.

this is the point i wanted to get across all along...

1)jus because some afrikans did it, doesn't mean it was right.

2)capitalism NEEDS poor people, something that DOESNT have to happen, but then again, capitalism was never about BALANCE was it?

(((((PEACE)))))
________________________________________________________________
"People are diverse, not everyone will EVEN want to do things your way. It's hard to convince people to do otherwise without the threat of say eternal damnation or convincing them they are hurting people." -M2

  

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urbgriot
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73. "NO HE IS WRONG"
In response to Reply # 69


          

Market economies worked for centuries well before Europeans took advantage of it. Do you realize that Afrikans traded with Europe, Asian, and there is some evidence of South America (due the Mali and Songai artifacts found in the Amazon) for centuries before Europeans ever even created civilization. They bartered for CENTURIES using cowery shells and gold JESUS. WTH ??

Check the Book Destruction of Black Civilization by Chancelor Williams.

https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

  

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urbgriot
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75. "Furthermore"
In response to Reply # 73


          

Afrikan did it better, hell every culture did it better. Europeans were taught civilization by AFRAKANS so how in the hell
did the system not exist. Europeans preverted market economies, the same way they made cannons out of fireworks, and implemented it through white supremcy throughout the continents.

Yeah, Afrikans did it first better and effectively and it WORKED not just for the ruling class but for the COMMUNITY at large.


https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

  

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utamaroho

Wed May-30-01 08:22 AM

  
76. "RE: NO HE IS WRONG"
In response to Reply # 73


          

>>The 3 richest people in the world have more money than the poorest 600 MILLION. Yeah capitalism is definitely efficient, but that doesn't make it better

that's the part i shold've pasted

(((((PEACE)))))
________________________________________________________________
"People are diverse, not everyone will EVEN want to do things your way. It's hard to convince people to do otherwise without the threat of say eternal damnation or convincing them they are hurting people." -M2

  

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AZ
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Wed May-30-01 08:26 AM

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78. "RE: NO HE IS WRONG"
In response to Reply # 73


          

This took place long before the technological advances that we live with present day. Now we are able to have a very structured division of labor, we have more access to more scarce resources, and more complicated products that require actual production, unlike the goods traded centuries ago, which were mostly raw materials.

  

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utamaroho

Wed May-30-01 08:30 AM

  
79. "goof point..."
In response to Reply # 78


          

(((((PEACE)))))
________________________________________________________________
"People are diverse, not everyone will EVEN want to do things your way. It's hard to convince people to do otherwise without the threat of say eternal damnation or convincing them they are hurting people." -M2

  

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urbgriot
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80. "those advance took place"
In response to Reply # 78


          

because of the market demands and people attempting to capatilize on them.

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AZ
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Wed May-30-01 09:00 AM

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83. "RE: those advance took place"
In response to Reply # 80


          

>because of the market demands and
>people attempting to capatilize on
>them.

I agree with that. But the end result is the system we have today. The system that was present in Africa centuries ago cannot be a possiblity today.

  

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utamaroho

Wed May-30-01 09:03 AM

  
84. "why not?"
In response to Reply # 83


          

>>The system that was present in Africa centuries ago cannot be a possiblity today.

the essence of it could/should/needs to be. *idealism talking*


(((((PEACE)))))
________________________________________________________________
"People are diverse, not everyone will EVEN want to do things your way. It's hard to convince people to do otherwise without the threat of say eternal damnation or convincing them they are hurting people." -M2

  

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AZ
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Wed May-30-01 09:12 AM

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85. "RE: why not?"
In response to Reply # 84


          

Because the products that are produced today require a very structured division of labor. Sureley, workers who pick crops in Central America can not be paid well and at the same time those in North America afford to buy those crops:

Why would any employer pay those workers more than a few cents/dollars a day, when there are people willing to work for those few dollars/cents out of necessity? The employer can pay less to the worker, thereby charge consumers less for the product, thereby take over most of the market for the product, and thereby force others to pay their workers less.

Show me a scenario where those doing jobs that require the least capital, such as crop pickers, are paid a decent wage? I don't think it's possible under a capitalist system.

  

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urbgriot
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Wed May-30-01 09:23 AM

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88. "RE: why not?"
In response to Reply # 85


          

Do you realize the US produces enough food and has enough resourses to feed and clothe the entire planet. It is not so much that coporation want use a third world country to pick crops
but what does that nation have to offer that entity. If it is not worth it especially. Nigeria is one of the biggest oil producers in the world, yet it's government has allowed itself to be corrupted and turn against the people. Nigeria suffers because of that. Saudi Arabia produces oil and everyone born there gets $50,000 for living. The rape of Afrika was a rape of culture and mindstates more than anything else. That is why they are so easily manipulated and corrupted, Europeans ruined the continent by destroying the culture. Now in Ghana miners sacrafice their lives in caves digging for diamonds so they can live like Europeans...

peace

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AZ
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Wed May-30-01 09:43 AM

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91. "RE: why not?"
In response to Reply # 88


          

>Do you realize the US produces
>enough food and has enough
>resourses to feed and clothe
>the entire planet.

I have to disagree with you here. The US does not produce enough food to feed the whole planet. However, there definitely is not a shortage of food available to feed the whole planet. This just backs up my point though, the resources go to only those that can afford it. Even though thousands of tons of food goes wasted or thrown away (some of it to purposely push up prices), there are still millions of people throughout the world going hungry every year. Is this due simply to culture? No. It's due to a system in which feeding everyone would be harmful to competition, private property, and maximization of profits, which are the main components behind capitalism.

  

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urbgriot
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Wed May-30-01 09:50 AM

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92. "RE: why not?"
In response to Reply # 91


          

Yes the US produces enough food to feed the planet, well. Coke is building roads in China, as we speak to sell cokes there. Coporations want to sell to everyone and anywhere there is market for it...

peace...

https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

  

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utamaroho

Wed May-30-01 09:54 AM

  
93. "that is culture..."
In response to Reply # 91


          

>>No. It's due to a system in which feeding everyone would be harmful to competition, private property, and maximization of profits, which are the main components behind capitalism.

that is culture...these are the ramifications of peoples culture...we cannot separate actions from thoughts...the system is built by "people", they just don't pop out of nowhere.


(((((PEACE)))))
________________________________________________________________
"People are diverse, not everyone will EVEN want to do things your way. It's hard to convince people to do otherwise without the threat of say eternal damnation or convincing them they are hurting people." -M2

  

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AZ
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94. "RE: that is culture..."
In response to Reply # 93


          

>>>No. It's due to a system in which feeding everyone would be harmful to competition, private property, and maximization of profits, which are the main components behind capitalism.
>
>that is culture...these are the ramifications
>of peoples culture...we cannot separate
>actions from thoughts...the system is
>built by "people", they just
>don't pop out of nowhere.

if firms don't maximize their profits, they cease to exist. This is true irregardless of culture. If all the hungry were fed in this world, then firms would definitely go out of business. There is no incentive in capitalism, and no mechanism in capitalism, that allows the feeding of those who cannot afford it on a mass scale.

  

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urbgriot
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87. "If the mindstate"
In response to Reply # 84


          

If the mindstate of the people in Afrika and people of the diaspora were to return to their heritage and recapture there original culture it can.. and yes I do believe that....

peace...

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Ape Redwood
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95. "RE: too much to type out..."
In response to Reply # 48


  

          


>
>Capitalism: A system of exchanging some
>form of currency for goods,
>services and/or commodities.

That's the definiton of a market economy. Not capitalism. Important difference.


Also a
>system whereby people can accumulate
>wealth in the form of
>goods, services, property, etc.
>

This can also occur in any economic system. Including communism.

>Our ancestors sold gold to the
>europeans = capitalism

No thats just an economic action

>Our ancestors trade systems = capitalism

ditto

>
>Ancient Pharoah's of egypt: gold, their
>possessions, their kingdoms = Capitalism
>

No. Actually the vast accumulation of wealth (instead of CAPITAL) and the large central role the Egyptian State played in the economy goes against the tenets of good capitalism.

Just pointing it out.

---------------------
Thursday, June 17th
Dujeous @ Bowery Ballroom
6 Delancey Street (at Bowery)
w/Addison Groove Project &
Gutbucket
10PM~$13
DUJEOUS debut LP "CITY
LIMITS" INSTOSNOW.
Buy my shit.

  

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urbgriot
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10. "true"
In response to Reply # 5


          

but you would have to get these businesses on the same page with one goal in mind. which is nearly impossible, but if you could get them on the same page wow. it is good to see us working in a positive manner within this system.

peace...

https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

  

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utamaroho

Tue May-29-01 09:07 AM

  
12. "how?"
In response to Reply # 10


          

>>but you would have to get these businesses on the same page with one goal in mind.

if your goals are different than anothers, how do you get another to understand your viewpoint...

athletes are americans none-the-less. capitalists with their own individualistic goals in mind. trying to convert them is like trying to convert the enemy. i think the main thing is that people see these people as allies based on race when sometimes they're nothing more than "dark-skinned white people." (don't start anybody, its just a saying)...


(((((PEACE)))))
________________________________________________________________
"Adversity causes some men to break, others to break records." -Anonymous

"Pain is weakness leaving the body." -A Navy SEALS Saying

"Fall seven times, stand up eight." -Japanese Proverb

"The conciousness of self is the greatest hindrance to the proper execution of all physical action." -Bruce Lee

  

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urbgriot
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Tue May-29-01 09:19 AM

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18. "exactly"
In response to Reply # 12


          

unless a group of Afrikans can rise with that one goal in mind.

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Expertise
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Tue May-29-01 09:25 AM

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21. "the essence of dark-skinned white people"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

>>>but you would have to get these businesses on the same page with one goal in mind.
>
>if your goals are different than
>anothers, how do you get
>another to understand your viewpoint...

That's easy. Happens every day when dwelling with several current issues.

>athletes are americans none-the-less. capitalists with
>their own individualistic goals in
>mind. trying to convert them
>is like trying to convert
>the enemy. i think the
>main thing is that people
>see these people as allies
>based on race when sometimes
>they're nothing more than "dark-skinned
>white people." (don't start anybody,
>its just a saying)...

See, this is what I dont get about you and Solaris.....how can you actually make a connection with making a profit and obtaining resources with white supremacy? Not to mention, making a connection with any black person trying to do the same wanting to become assimilated as well as sellouts?

There are businesses and entrepreneurs that actually make an honest living, believe it or not, and actually did it through hard work and determination. They are trying to get things done for them and their families, and their attributes provide as a model for others to follow. Your logic dictates that everyone for the express purpose to obtain financial security means they are ruthless and corrupt people. That doesn't hold water. Even if it did, the whole idea that you are willing to concede into the idea of playing this "evil capitalistic game" in order to gain resources for the "hundreds of future generations" makes you come off as contradictory.

New Quotes....

Fascist ethics begin ... with the acknowledgment that it is not the individual who confers a meaning upon society, but it is, instead, the existence of a human society which determines the human character of the individual. According to Fascism, a true, a great spiritual life cannot take place unless the State has risen to a position of pre-eminence in the world of man. The curtailment of liberty thus becomes justified at once, and this need of rising the State to its rightful position. - Mario Palmieri, "The Philosophy of Fascism" 1936

The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. - H.L. Mencken

When will the world learn that a million men are of no importance compared with one man? - Henry David Thoreau

"In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, 'Make us your slaves, but feed us.'" - Dosteovsky's Grand Inquisitor.

"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand

And always...my favorite....
Life is insensitive, and the truth can be highly offensive. To hide from either is to hide from the reality of life. Take comfort in the fact that I am an equal opportunity offender. You today. Someone else tomorrow. You have no Constitutional right not to be offended. - Neal Boortz

_________________________
http://expertise.blogdrive.com
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http://www.ask.fm/KMBReferee

  

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urbgriot
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Tue May-29-01 09:32 AM

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24. "cultural context"
In response to Reply # 21


          

You have to understand the cultural context of what they are talking about.
White Supremcy as a system is deeper than just economics. MINDSTATES. This is something that has to be explained. Damn I'am at work..

https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

  

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utamaroho

Tue May-29-01 09:36 AM

  
25. "RE: the essence of dark-skinned white people"
In response to Reply # 21


          

>>Your logic dictates that everyone for the express purpose to obtain financial security means they are ruthless and corrupt people.

no, look at the impact of these "hones"t people, of me, of you, of anyone here. It may be asking to step it up a level to which most aren't ready, but we're out to end this. right here right now. in one's personal life you have to make decisions based on personal standards, right? well, let's just say some people have higher standards than others. some might want to be the best car manufacturer in the company, others might want to start their own, and one or two might want to make cars while thinking of he impact on all else around them WHILE making that profit. remember ALL african-americans are AMERICANS. don't exclude them out of that context. learn about americans and their culture and then you'll see why i opt out of the status quo in my solutions. M2 by the way is an inspiration, so are you. i just stay alert to the ramifications of your ideas ACCORDING TO MY STANDARDS.

that's all...

oh yeah, i didn't say sellout. black people here are americans to me PERIOD, sometimes i wish i didn't even see their melanin with my eyes, it's just too sad sometimes. i'd rather they be grey! *cuba gooding jr.*



(((((PEACE)))))
________________________________________________________________
"Adversity causes some men to break, others to break records." -Anonymous

"Pain is weakness leaving the body." -A Navy SEALS Saying

"Fall seven times, stand up eight." -Japanese Proverb

"The conciousness of self is the greatest hindrance to the proper execution of all physical action." -Bruce Lee

  

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BooDaah
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Tue May-29-01 09:31 AM

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23. "i say"
In response to Reply # 10


          

>it is good to see us working in a
>positive manner within this system.

once you weild enough power you can change the rules

or

even simpler is to make YOUR OWN game, and leave "them" to theirs.

methinks we have the means by which to do this, if we choose.

but your point remains, it's much more about "me" than "me and mines" --- that's "THEIR" way of playing....and since "THEY" have the cards, they'll continue to stay on top (as a group) even if a couple of us succed in becoming member of their team

but i digress.....

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------
"What are we as African Americans? Let's really examine how we are contributing to the projection of our own images of ourselves. What are we really willing to give up? Our integrity? The honor of our community, just for some money? "-Jada

  

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Expertise
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Tue May-29-01 09:01 AM

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8. "you just dont get it..."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

>wish you'd been at the lecture...
>
>
>he spoke about what HAS to
>happen rightn now. i.e. creating
>the ability to generate capital
>that will be used for
>resources to provide self-sufficiency. for
>example: participating within this capitalistic
>game in order to get
>to a point where we
>aren't dependent on it. gaining
>RESOURCES, not money, that will
>carry us on for the
>next hundred generations to come...

*shaking head*

Uta, put two and two together. The whole idea in the "capitalistic game" is to generate capital and resources in order to not be dependant on anything!

Not to mention, money and resources go hand in hand. Money gains you access to the resources. If you think you can gain and/or maintain resources without some reserve source of currency, you're sorely mistaking.

I'm sure it was an exaggeration, but the "next hundred generations" isn't set in stone for any of us, much less being prepared and secure for it. We need resources to carry us NOW, and by building an economic web you're able to help prepare for future generations.

New Quotes....

Fascist ethics begin ... with the acknowledgment that it is not the individual who confers a meaning upon society, but it is, instead, the existence of a human society which determines the human character of the individual. According to Fascism, a true, a great spiritual life cannot take place unless the State has risen to a position of pre-eminence in the world of man. The curtailment of liberty thus becomes justified at once, and this need of rising the State to its rightful position. - Mario Palmieri, "The Philosophy of Fascism" 1936

The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. - H.L. Mencken

When will the world learn that a million men are of no importance compared with one man? - Henry David Thoreau

"In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, 'Make us your slaves, but feed us.'" - Dosteovsky's Grand Inquisitor.

"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand

And always...my favorite....
Life is insensitive, and the truth can be highly offensive. To hide from either is to hide from the reality of life. Take comfort in the fact that I am an equal opportunity offender. You today. Someone else tomorrow. You have no Constitutional right not to be offended. - Neal Boortz

_________________________
http://expertise.blogdrive.com
http://twitter.com/KMBReferee
http://www.ask.fm/KMBReferee

  

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utamaroho

Tue May-29-01 09:13 AM

  
16. "RESOURCES"
In response to Reply # 8


          

>>Money gains you access to the resources.

resources exist independent of money...

about the 100 generations to come part: it's not an exaggeration, just afrikan. moving on.

main point is to make sure any success i geared towards NATIONBUILDNG (at least for the afrikan). we don't want to build a little clubhouse in the basement of the established house. we want to build our own house...think of all the things we are dependent on here and ask 1) how do we produce this for ourselves? 2)do we really need to reproduce everything from the status quo?



(((((PEACE)))))
________________________________________________________________
"Adversity causes some men to break, others to break records." -Anonymous

"Pain is weakness leaving the body." -A Navy SEALS Saying

"Fall seven times, stand up eight." -Japanese Proverb

"The conciousness of self is the greatest hindrance to the proper execution of all physical action." -Bruce Lee

  

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Expertise
Charter member
37848 posts
Tue May-29-01 08:51 AM

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2. "Oh my dear god..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Someone MAY be getting the picture.

It's a friggin miracle.

HEY....who is ole boy that has that $800 million juggernaut on the cover?!?!?? Even I didn't know we had big rollers like him in the entrepreneural circuit. I can't remember his name right now....but if he isn't an example of black progress, I dunno what is.

Kats like him and Bob Johnson are starting to make Oprah and the entertainers seem like small change.

_________________________
http://expertise.blogdrive.com
http://twitter.com/KMBReferee
http://www.ask.fm/KMBReferee

  

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utamaroho

Tue May-29-01 08:58 AM

  
6. "inspiring, but then again..."
In response to Reply # 2


          

for afrikans, these questions might want to be posed (from Setshego post):

1. What are U doing in Ur Life 2 replace white supremacy w/ Justice?

2. What do U THINK that "I" am doing w/ MY Life 2 replace white supremacy w/ Justice?

3. What is it that we could do TOGETHER to replace white supremacy w/ Justice?

If the answers 2 any of the 3 questions is "I don't know," that candidate should be IMMEDIATELY eliminated from consideration.

If the answers 2 any of the 3 question is unsatisfactory, then that person should be suspect for consideration of a relationship.




(((((PEACE)))))
________________________________________________________________
"Adversity causes some men to break, others to break records." -Anonymous

"Pain is weakness leaving the body." -A Navy SEALS Saying

"Fall seven times, stand up eight." -Japanese Proverb

"The conciousness of self is the greatest hindrance to the proper execution of all physical action." -Bruce Lee

  

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Expertise
Charter member
37848 posts
Tue May-29-01 09:08 AM

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13. "RE: inspiring, but then again..."
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

>1. What are U doing in
>Ur Life 2 replace white
>supremacy w/ Justice?
>
>2. What do U THINK that
>"I" am doing w/ MY
>Life 2 replace white supremacy
>w/ Justice?
>
>3. What is it that we
>could do TOGETHER to replace
>white supremacy w/ Justice?
>
>If the answers 2 any of
>the 3 questions is "I
>don't know," that candidate should
>be IMMEDIATELY eliminated from consideration.
>
>
>If the answers 2 any of
>the 3 question is unsatisfactory,
>then that person should be
>suspect for consideration of a
>relationship.

Well first of all it's what you consider justice. People have different interpretations for justice.

Second, you're putting the cart before the horse. If you want social change through economic empowerment, you must concentrate on one in order to gain the other. That implies for individuals as well as collectively. You must gain the resources in order to implement change before you actually can expect successful gains in implementing social change.


_________________________
http://expertise.blogdrive.com
http://twitter.com/KMBReferee
http://www.ask.fm/KMBReferee

  

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utamaroho

Tue May-29-01 09:23 AM

  
19. "RE: inspiring, but then again..."
In response to Reply # 13


          

>>social change through economic empowerment


i think it goes, economic empowerment through social change.

changing the thinking/doing process of an individual comes first ALWAYS, economics is dependent on the social environment that exists. think about if everyone woke up tomorrow thinking like you, the impact would be immediate economic change.

another example: civil rights era: blacks allowed to frequent white business(social change), impact: black businesses less frequented, dollars flow from our community to "other",and black businesses go out of business(economic change).

social change (mental readjustment) HAS to come first, otherwise, how will people even begin to WANT to work toward economic emopowerment?

just like the argument towards "reparations". if given money/capital/resources (economical empowerment) right now, what would happen considering the mental state of african american negroes? the social change must be born first.



(((((PEACE)))))
________________________________________________________________
"Adversity causes some men to break, others to break records." -Anonymous

"Pain is weakness leaving the body." -A Navy SEALS Saying

"Fall seven times, stand up eight." -Japanese Proverb

"The conciousness of self is the greatest hindrance to the proper execution of all physical action." -Bruce Lee

  

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Expertise
Charter member
37848 posts
Tue May-29-01 09:50 AM

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29. "RE: inspiring, but then again..."
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

>>>social change through economic empowerment

>i think it goes, economic empowerment
>through social change.
>changing the thinking/doing process of an
>individual comes first ALWAYS, economics
>is dependent on the social
>environment that exists. think about
>if everyone woke up tomorrow
>thinking like you, the impact
>would be immediate economic change.

If everyone woke up as flies, we'd be bloodthirsty.

I've stated this plenty of times on this board, economic empowerment is not simply about the access and collection of money and resources; it's about obtaining knowledge on how to use them to build your life from all parameters, not to simply say, "I'm rich, I have alotta cash".

>another example: civil rights era: blacks
>allowed to frequent white business(social
>change), impact: black businesses less
>frequented, dollars flow from our
>community to "other",and black businesses
>go out of business(economic change).

Actually, that was a POLITICAL change. Not social. There is a big difference between the two.

You see, when you have a political change, it's FORCING people to enact change. Usually when you enact political changes, the objectives you are trying to achieve backfire, unless it is a totalitarian atmosphere and you are willing to back up your demands with physical force and other methods of imtimidation. It makes people resentful, and look to try to find other ways to undermine the ones doing the enforcing. I would like to think politicians were not looking to undermine black businesses by forcing integration, but the problem was that they, like you, put external change in front of internal change.

>social change (mental readjustment) HAS to
>come first, otherwise, how will
>people even begin to WANT
>to work toward economic emopowerment?
>just like the argument towards "reparations".
>if given money/capital/resources (economical empowerment)
>right now, what would happen
>considering the mental state of
>african american negroes? the social
>change must be born first.

I agree with you on this part, but the thing is you fail to connect enlightenment with empowerment. Those things go hand in hand. What's the use of being enlightened if it doesn't empower you, and there is absolutely no empowerment without enlightenment.

New Quotes....

Fascist ethics begin ... with the acknowledgment that it is not the individual who confers a meaning upon society, but it is, instead, the existence of a human society which determines the human character of the individual. According to Fascism, a true, a great spiritual life cannot take place unless the State has risen to a position of pre-eminence in the world of man. The curtailment of liberty thus becomes justified at once, and this need of rising the State to its rightful position. - Mario Palmieri, "The Philosophy of Fascism" 1936

The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. - H.L. Mencken

When will the world learn that a million men are of no importance compared with one man? - Henry David Thoreau

"In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, 'Make us your slaves, but feed us.'" - Dosteovsky's Grand Inquisitor.

"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand

And always...my favorite....
Life is insensitive, and the truth can be highly offensive. To hide from either is to hide from the reality of life. Take comfort in the fact that I am an equal opportunity offender. You today. Someone else tomorrow. You have no Constitutional right not to be offended. - Neal Boortz

_________________________
http://expertise.blogdrive.com
http://twitter.com/KMBReferee
http://www.ask.fm/KMBReferee

  

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Solitayre
Charter member
8114 posts
Wed May-30-01 04:22 AM

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55. "UR harsh words are not afforded..."
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

in today's society and with TODAY's present generation...You can also pass the word along to Setshego and whomever else you choose...

How do you form NATION without ENOUGH soldiers to protect it?

We should concentrate on getting as MANY authentic, passionate people involved as possible....with whatever relaionship Set was implying...

>for afrikans, these questions might want
>to be posed (from Setshego
>post):
>
>1. What are U doing in
>Ur Life 2 replace white
>supremacy w/ Justice?
>
>2. What do U THINK that
>"I" am doing w/ MY
>Life 2 replace white supremacy
>w/ Justice?
>
>3. What is it that we
>could do TOGETHER to replace
>white supremacy w/ Justice?
>
>If the answers 2 any of
>the 3 questions is "I
>don't know," that candidate should
>be IMMEDIATELY eliminated from consideration.
>
>
>If the answers 2 any of
>the 3 question is unsatisfactory,
>then that person should be
>suspect for consideration of a
>relationship.


MARVEL AT MY BRAND NEW SIGNATURE!!!!!!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
People nowadays got self respect confused.They walk around all day talking about,"I'm a great person. I'm a wonderful person....ME, ME, ME."
That's not self esteem...That's vanity.
-BESSIE DeLANEY

I could make millions if I led my peple the wrong way, to something I know is wrong. So now I have to makea decision. To step into a billion dollars and denounce my people or step into poverty and teach them the truth.
-MUHAMMAD ALI

I'm open minded like a pothead
doin what I gotta do
to keep the spot fed.- COMMON

Only those who permit themselves to be are despised.-ALEX HALEY

_____________________________________________
DOWNLOAD THE HELLO EP Spit by yours truly!
http://www.zshare.net/download/80520753aae60df7/
Just a PSA

  

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utamaroho

Wed May-30-01 04:28 AM

  
57. "How do you form NATION without ENOUGH soldiers to protect it?"
In response to Reply # 55


          

>>finally, someone i can speak to about this...

i think of this quite often, but physical revolution isn't somehing often emphasized on a message board...but trust me in reality the seeds are being planted...




(((((PEACE)))))
________________________________________________________________
"Adversity causes some men to break, others to break records." -Anonymous

"Pain is weakness leaving the body." -A Navy SEALS Saying

"Fall seven times, stand up eight." -Japanese Proverb

"The conciousness of self is the greatest hindrance to the proper execution of all physical action." -Bruce Lee

  

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BooDaah
Charter member
32690 posts
Tue May-29-01 08:58 AM

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7. "glibness aside"
In response to Reply # 2


          

the point remains that perhaps its time the arguements should shift from ACCESS to IMPLEMENTATION

if we don't use what "we" HAVE, what's the point of getting more?

i'm sayin....
------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------
"What are we as African Americans? Let's really examine how we are contributing to the projection of our own images of ourselves. What are we really willing to give up? Our integrity? The honor of our community, just for some money? "-Jada

  

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utamaroho

Tue May-29-01 09:04 AM

  
11. "there has to be a goal...."
In response to Reply # 7


          

uncompromising in its purpose. what is your goal?


(((((PEACE)))))
________________________________________________________________
"Adversity causes some men to break, others to break records." -Anonymous

"Pain is weakness leaving the body." -A Navy SEALS Saying

"Fall seven times, stand up eight." -Japanese Proverb

"The conciousness of self is the greatest hindrance to the proper execution of all physical action." -Bruce Lee

  

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BooDaah
Charter member
32690 posts
Tue May-29-01 09:24 AM

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20. "survival"
In response to Reply # 11


          

for us, by us....implemented in such a way as to be self sustaining (the implementation, and the culture)

  

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utamaroho

Tue May-29-01 09:41 AM

  
26. "it saddens me that..."
In response to Reply # 20


          

mine, yours and everybody elses talents are being wasted "surviving" and having to step down from such feats as building pyramids and creating some of hmanities most magnificient ideas, to worrying about how we can get out of debt, or give our children a "decent" future. it's like going back to kindegarden.



(((((PEACE)))))
________________________________________________________________
"Adversity causes some men to break, others to break records." -Anonymous

"Pain is weakness leaving the body." -A Navy SEALS Saying

"Fall seven times, stand up eight." -Japanese Proverb

"The conciousness of self is the greatest hindrance to the proper execution of all physical action." -Bruce Lee

  

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BooDaah
Charter member
32690 posts
Tue May-29-01 09:46 AM

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28. "don't sleep"
In response to Reply # 26


          

what's life without expression and growth?

each thing, in it's proper place though.

point is, i'll give up the ability to build a pyramid (in the short term anyway) for the ability to grow a living legacy.

by busting my hump today, my seed will be able to fly higher tomarrow

as such, my pleasure comes from the knowledge of fruits of this labor

nahmeen?


  

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utamaroho

Tue May-29-01 09:56 AM

  
32. "i know what you mean"
In response to Reply # 28


          

i actually like our present obstacle! we are being given a chance to overcome a great adversary. the apache used to hope for worthy adversaries even if the fight ended in their death because it meant more to them. we are in a remarkable time and every accomplishment of the ancestors and every hope they had, and every stepping stone they placed needs to only be built upon. struggle is a NECESSARY part of the afrikan way of thinking and inseparable from growth. the ancestors built the pyramids, but we'll build a fortress within this wilderness.

"everything i have done has led to this, i was born for this shit." -Steve Cokely



(((((PEACE)))))
________________________________________________________________
"Adversity causes some men to break, others to break records." -Anonymous

"Pain is weakness leaving the body." -A Navy SEALS Saying

"Fall seven times, stand up eight." -Japanese Proverb

"The conciousness of self is the greatest hindrance to the proper execution of all physical action." -Bruce Lee

  

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M2
Charter member
10072 posts
Tue May-29-01 08:57 PM

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50. "RE: don't sleep"
In response to Reply # 28


          

How do you give up your ability to Build pyramids if you build wealth for Lil Boodah?

IMHO? You don't.


Building the Pyramids took the following:

Resources E.g. Wealth of some kind
Knowledge
Ingenuity
Creativity
Skills


In this day and age, leaving a legacy empowers your descendants to acquire the things mentioned above......

In other words, by building a legacy you ARE enabling yourself and your seed(s) to build pyramids.


Peace,


M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Solitayre
Charter member
8114 posts
Wed May-30-01 04:28 AM

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56. "Pretty Much n/m"
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

MARVEL AT MY BRAND NEW SIGNATURE!!!!!!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
People nowadays got self respect confused.They walk around all day talking about,"I'm a great person. I'm a wonderful person....ME, ME, ME."
That's not self esteem...That's vanity.
-BESSIE DeLANEY

I could make millions if I led my peple the wrong way, to something I know is wrong. So now I have to makea decision. To step into a billion dollars and denounce my people or step into poverty and teach them the truth.
-MUHAMMAD ALI

I'm open minded like a pothead
doin what I gotta do
to keep the spot fed.- COMMON

Only those who permit themselves to be are despised.-ALEX HALEY

_____________________________________________
DOWNLOAD THE HELLO EP Spit by yours truly!
http://www.zshare.net/download/80520753aae60df7/
Just a PSA

  

Printer-friendly copy | Top

                            
BooDaah
Charter member
32690 posts
Wed May-30-01 04:49 AM

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58. "u folk r sticklers"
In response to Reply # 50


          

>give up your ability

poor choice of words. my point is, i'll forgo the actualy erection of the "pyramid" myself in an effort to collect the resources for future generations.

i guess you could say, "i'll do the legwork" by getting the raw materials.

methinks u know what i meant

  

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utamaroho

Wed May-30-01 04:55 AM

  
59. "EXACTLY"
In response to Reply # 58


          

>>i guess you could say, "i'll do the legwork" by getting the raw materials.

what Ayi Kei Armah said, to the letter!

not many people though are willing to sacrifice the fame, fortune, luixuries, easy life to take on the hard road of struggle & hardship. with the easy life being dangled in front of our faces all the time, most would rather opt out and take it and run.

"pharoahs got praised for their great pyramids, the BUILDERS were the ones who actually created them." -Me

that is why this obstacle we have in front of us is like an honor to take on!





(((((PEACE)))))
________________________________________________________________
"Adversity causes some men to break, others to break records." -Anonymous

"Pain is weakness leaving the body." -A Navy SEALS Saying

"Fall seven times, stand up eight." -Japanese Proverb

"The conciousness of self is the greatest hindrance to the proper execution of all physical action." -Bruce Lee

  

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Expertise
Charter member
37848 posts
Tue May-29-01 09:08 AM

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14. "DUH!!!"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

New Quotes....

Fascist ethics begin ... with the acknowledgment that it is not the individual who confers a meaning upon society, but it is, instead, the existence of a human society which determines the human character of the individual. According to Fascism, a true, a great spiritual life cannot take place unless the State has risen to a position of pre-eminence in the world of man. The curtailment of liberty thus becomes justified at once, and this need of rising the State to its rightful position. - Mario Palmieri, "The Philosophy of Fascism" 1936

The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. - H.L. Mencken

When will the world learn that a million men are of no importance compared with one man? - Henry David Thoreau

"In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, 'Make us your slaves, but feed us.'" - Dosteovsky's Grand Inquisitor.

"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand

And always...my favorite....
Life is insensitive, and the truth can be highly offensive. To hide from either is to hide from the reality of life. Take comfort in the fact that I am an equal opportunity offender. You today. Someone else tomorrow. You have no Constitutional right not to be offended. - Neal Boortz

_________________________
http://expertise.blogdrive.com
http://twitter.com/KMBReferee
http://www.ask.fm/KMBReferee

  

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Expertise
Charter member
37848 posts
Tue May-29-01 09:12 AM

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15. "duh pt.2"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

damn pinky hit the enter button..

but DUH!!! That's what me and M2 have been saying the whole time!

Hell, finally I can go to work after getting off this board with a smile on my face....someone is actually getting it afterall...

_________________________
http://expertise.blogdrive.com
http://twitter.com/KMBReferee
http://www.ask.fm/KMBReferee

  

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cued
Charter member
1748 posts
Tue May-29-01 09:20 PM

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51. "RE: glibness aside"
In response to Reply # 7


          

BooDah,

Easy... to become like "them".

I mean... maybe not everyone is like that, but I think a lot of people, once they get the cash flowing, forget... And while forgetting is not the same as adopting Eurocentric values and culture, an adoption takes place...

Where materials things start to mean more than people.

For example

(glad to see you back!)

Peace,

Q


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^*********^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Uplifting thoughts:

"We are the end result of our ancestors prayers as they died. We you are the sum total of their answered prayers."

"I am because we are; we are because I am."

"falling in love with somebody's soul...their essence their personality their walk their talk the way they speak and smile...no matter what the physical outer body is..male or female...is a temptation i hope i am never foolish enough to resist." - Hot Damali



____________


"When the revolution comes, "faggots" won't be so funny." - The Last Poets

** Most people mis-read this line. I don't think he is being homophobic. I think he's making sure you folks know, within our communities, those of you who laugh at

  

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urbgriot
Charter member
11445 posts
Tue May-29-01 08:55 AM

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4. "I read it"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I was impressed by some of the variety of the businesses. We still have an huge bridge to cross, but it is inspiring...

peace..

https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

  

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M2
Charter member
10072 posts
Tue May-29-01 09:51 AM

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31. "Thoughts/Perspective/Myopia"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I haven't read that issue yet, but I'll drop some thoughts anyway.

-Be careful about reading the BE lists and getting excited: the rankings are based on revenues NOT profits, or cash flowing back to the owners. Case in point: Carver National Bank (NYC) is the ranked the top Black Owned Bank........based on revenues...BUT, it's in severe financial trouble.

In other words, you need to compare some of the BE companies to white companies to see where we stack up in terms of power/economic resources and influence.

-Just because your company has 800 million in revenues, doesn't mean that you're worth 800 million or the owner pulled in 800 million.....depending on the corporate structure and ownership %....the owner probably pulled in a fraction of that.

Case in point, I have a client/good friend whose company pulls in a couple million/year...he's not a millionaire though..not even close.

The point is that this Brotha is one Bad Motha...no doubt about that, he ain't broke by damn sight either....BUT we need to look at this in terms of who his company ranks compared to the ones that dominat our corporate landscape and where we have to go to bring ourselves up to par...so that BLACKS have corporate power like whites do...then we can do some serious damage.

-The collective revenues of the firms on the BE industrial/service 100s topped the $10 billion mark for the first time, moving up from $8.7 billion in 1999 to $10.9 billion in 2000. If you were to combine those firms into ONE company, it would rank 176 on the Fortune 500 list.

Let me repeat myself, the collective earnings of the industrial/service BE 100 (the largest sector in terms of revenue) would rank 176 on the Fortune 500 list of the nations biggest companies.

You realize that they are people whose networth is MORE then 10.9 Billion or who are worth at least 10% of it? Like say..most of the Forbes 400 (list of wealthiest americans).......

-Besides Oprah & Bob Johnson (who will be on this years Forbes List as the First Black Billionaire) there aren't any other Blacks on the Forbes 400 list. NONE of the cats who own these BE 100 companies have made it yet.

What I'm trying to say here, is that we should definitely hold our heads up high and be proud of what these Black Men and Women have accomplished.....but let's realize how far we have to go....AND realize the problems that these people have had along the way due to Racism.

I've gone on Interviews and been called a straight up Liar, because "there is just no way I could've done all the stuff on my resume" funny....I have white colleagues who are rather precocious themselves......and they never hear that.

Let's also look at the 107k wealth difference between middle Class Blacks & Whites.

Finally, let's think about what we'll do when we get that power.

While some of our financial problems are our own fault, while some are due to Racism....we still have a long way to go regardless. It's a statement as to the amount of wealth in this country when a 800 million dollar tech firm, is not a juggernaut by any means....a "boutique" tech outfit would be a more accurate discription...I will say that it compares favorably with a Rational Software(Ticker Symbol: RATL)..they have roughly the same revenues....but Rational is considered a small "niche" company...not a juggernaut.

I think perspective is important because it keeps us from patting ourselves on the back too much and getting complacent and/or not realizing where we have to go. I didn't grow up poor, I went to a good school and I'm doing well now...a lot of the financial barriers Blacks face...haven't hurt me. So should I get Myopic and declare everything ok? NO! A white person with half my income and a worse credit rating has a better shot at getting a house loan...of the same amount! Now take that problem and multiply it 10x, that's what it's going to be like for me to get VC.

One of the largest Web Site tracking firms, was started by a Black Man and a White Man in Atlanta.....the Black man was the one with the Businesses savvy and the one who made the Business work. BUT, the White Guy was put in place as CEO because it was hard to get Funding with the Brotha as CEO. (even though the Brotha was the CEO behind the scenes) Later on the company had a big IPO, and merged with another company. The white guy become a New Media darling, made all kinds of connections and was able to become a Venture Capitalist, and start other Businesses.

The Brotha struggled to get funding for his new venture.

Anyway, there was an Article on it in the Times a few months back.....I'll dig it up.

In other words, there are still barriers to capital....there are still barriers to success....and saying that it's over because of some companies that are microscopic compared to their white counterparts is a bit pre-mature.

I can say that those barriers haven't stopped me, but what about the people they do stop? We've done a tremendous job so far, but we have a long ways to go.



Peace,




M2


P.S. I was the one who said that his indian colleagues pick jobs that pay well, in interests of helping family.....the idea is to pass on generational wealth.......not poverty to your kids.



The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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BooDaah
Charter member
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Tue May-29-01 09:59 AM

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33. "my thing though"
In response to Reply # 31


          

>the rankings are based on revenues
>NOT profits, or cash flowing
>back to the owners.

but this is my point.

this money is flowing THROUGH "us" -- our businesses anyway.

not quite regardless of how much of it stays WITHIN us, my point is that we can control a decent enough channel to help better our overall status?

did that make sense?

>...the
>idea is to pass on
>generational wealth.......not poverty to your
>kids.

THIS is what i was saying in regards to our "pyramid building" power

  

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utamaroho

Tue May-29-01 10:01 AM

  
35. "thanks for the correction"
In response to Reply # 31


          

1)send me your resume, if you want, i'd like to see it.

2)what is the impact of Oprah & Bob Johnson on the community?

3) outside of economics what are YOUR goals towards community?


(((((PEACE)))))
________________________________________________________________
"Adversity causes some men to break, others to break records." -Anonymous

"Pain is weakness leaving the body." -A Navy SEALS Saying

"Fall seven times, stand up eight." -Japanese Proverb

"The conciousness of self is the greatest hindrance to the proper execution of all physical action." -Bruce Lee

  

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Expertise
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Tue May-29-01 10:09 AM

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36. "RE: Thoughts/Perspective/Myopia"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

>-Be careful about reading the BE
>lists and getting excited: the
>rankings are based on revenues
>NOT profits, or cash flowing
>back to the owners. Case
>in point: Carver National Bank
>(NYC) is the ranked the
>top Black Owned Bank........based on
>revenues...BUT, it's in severe financial
>trouble.

True. In fact, I'mma try to find out how they interpret the Fortune 500 and other company rankings.

>In other words, you need to
>compare some of the BE
>companies to white companies to
>see where we stack up
>in terms of power/economic resources
>and influence.

I dont think anyone is actually making the assertion that black businesses are not on par or equal with whites. What I'm trying to say, and I think Boodah is beginning to believe is that we still have enough capital and resources to build upon. I'm not saying ole boy is worth $800 mil. But the fact that he has a business that has that made that much money is a grand accomplishment, and should serve as an example that black people can indeed make money in the US.

He's not up there with Gates, or Case, or any of those. But he is still landmarking something that few blacks have done or even attempted to do.

>Let's also look at the 107k
>wealth difference between middle Class
>Blacks & Whites.

Huh? Now this is a first. Last time I checked, the median income for whites was around 65-70K. Elaborate.

New Quotes....

Fascist ethics begin ... with the acknowledgment that it is not the individual who confers a meaning upon society, but it is, instead, the existence of a human society which determines the human character of the individual. According to Fascism, a true, a great spiritual life cannot take place unless the State has risen to a position of pre-eminence in the world of man. The curtailment of liberty thus becomes justified at once, and this need of rising the State to its rightful position. - Mario Palmieri, "The Philosophy of Fascism" 1936

The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. - H.L. Mencken

When will the world learn that a million men are of no importance compared with one man? - Henry David Thoreau

"In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, 'Make us your slaves, but feed us.'" - Dosteovsky's Grand Inquisitor.

"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand

And always...my favorite....
Life is insensitive, and the truth can be highly offensive. To hide from either is to hide from the reality of life. Take comfort in the fact that I am an equal opportunity offender. You today. Someone else tomorrow. You have no Constitutional right not to be offended. - Neal Boortz

_________________________
http://expertise.blogdrive.com
http://twitter.com/KMBReferee
http://www.ask.fm/KMBReferee

  

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urbgriot
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Tue May-29-01 10:13 AM

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38. "RE: Thoughts/Perspective/Myopia"
In response to Reply # 36


          

>>Let's also look at the 107k
>>wealth difference between middle Class
>>Blacks & Whites.

>Huh? Now this is a
>first. Last time I
>checked, the median income for
>whites was around 65-70K.
>Elaborate.

Wealth not income.. White's have more wealth...

peace..

https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

  

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M2
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Tue May-29-01 10:28 AM

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41. "RE: Thoughts/Perspective/Myopia"
In response to Reply # 36


          

I agree with you, it's a tremendous accomplishment and one I hope to equal and then surpass.....we just have a long way to go.

-I've been reading the Fortune 500 list when most other kids were playing with GI Joes...if you have any questions let me know.

-Wealth gap is a lot different from say a income gap.

Wealth (Net Worth) is the value of your assets - debts/liabilities.

Middle Class Blacks often have a lower Net Worth then Whites with the same income, why? Well Middle Class Blacks often buy more expensive cars, more expensive clothes, save less money, etc, etc, etc.

In other words, we don't save and invest our money, therefore we don't build up wealth.....while our White Counterparts are...

Another Look: I have a colleague whose gotta be worth near a million bucks, just from what he has told me about his assets...and he is definitely worth more then our Boss. Why?

Our Boss doesn't save, rarely invests and him and his wife spend like demons. He's always complaining about his credit card debts, or that he needs to start investment or wondering how to pay for his kids education.


Anyway, I speak to more of this in my Black Economics thread....take a look.


Peace,




M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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urbgriot
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11445 posts
Tue May-29-01 10:10 AM

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37. "couldn't have said it better"
In response to Reply # 31


          

I think the firm is WebMD...

peace..

https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

  

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M2
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10072 posts
Tue May-29-01 10:33 AM

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42. "RE: couldn't have said it better"
In response to Reply # 37


          

The firm I was talking about was either Jupiter Media, Media Matrix or PC Data....I'll have to check (they've all since merged with each other) all three of those firms, tracked web traffic of the top web properties sort of like a Nielsens for the Web. One of them was started by a Brotha and a White guy (they both were lawyers working down in Atlanta for Turner).

But WebMD might had the same issue, which is just saddening if this happened more the once.


Another Story: Network Solutions (recently bought by Verisign) the company that basically has the Business for registering domain names on lock......was started by a Brotha....who sold it in 89 I believe. If he hadn't sold it, he would've been one of the wealthiest Benefactors of the Tech Boom....not just because of the stock run up......but because it's weathered the Dot Bomb fairly well.....

I estimate his networth would be at LEAST 15-20 billion.....



Peace,




M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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urbgriot
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Tue May-29-01 10:40 AM

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43. "RE: couldn't have said it better"
In response to Reply # 42


          

I used Network Solutions to get my domain name. that's crazy and sad. I probaly was incorrect about WebMD.

peace..

https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

  

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BooDaah
Charter member
32690 posts
Tue May-29-01 10:46 AM

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44. "everyone uses NS"
In response to Reply # 43


          

if not directly, then indirectly through a "broker"

but that's just geek trivia

  

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okayheckler

Tue May-29-01 10:01 AM

  
34. "RE: Black folk need to quit bitchin'"
In response to Reply # 0


          

there is too much talk about what needs to happen, what should happen and needs to take place for these things to happen BUT no one is doing it.

its crippling.

"its hard for a black man to succeed because of x, y and z"

we need to stop saying the same shit that WEB DuBois said.we all know what the obstacles are just by being aware of your surroundings. if you aren't aware of your surroundings at this point you're already fucked!
--------------
wanna know what your girlfriend is doing when you're not around?

ooooh let me tell ya!

http://www.trickology.com

  

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Federisco
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5002 posts
Tue May-29-01 11:49 AM

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46. "RE: Black folk need to quit bitchin'"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I just read through this.. heavy material. But for those who are black (i'm not) and haven't read through it all, enjoy!

It is good reading and it's good that you talk about it! really. but in my humble opinion i think it is too much thinking. i am naiv, i think "we're all humans, let's just try to do good in this life and on this world, as an individual".

Sometimes someone conclude that Capitalism = White = Devil. That scares me, and is to me just as evil as me saying all negroes (and basically anybody darker than me) are sent from the devil to make my life miserable! not that i do.

I mean, why make it complicated and try to find the sinner(sp?) behind capitalism when you can be naiv and live a beautiful life? I dont mind people from other cultures. I leave it to you.. but i know i choose being naiv. Or, a fine balance: naiv but aware.

░▒▓█▌Ļ♥▐█▓▒░

proud okayphotographer: http://www.okayplayer.com/okayphotographers/

"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." ó Marshall McLuhan

  

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Ximo
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351 posts
Tue May-29-01 12:13 PM

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47. "RE: Black folk need to quit bitchin'"
In response to Reply # 0


          

People, people, please listen to this and let me know what you think..

What is this all about? I'm not as closely related to Afrika like you seem to be (I'm european, and doesn't like capitalism) and I have no clue what you are talking about. Who is that lecturer? Is it some kind of revolution going on or what?

I havent got much to say about it cause I don't know that much about it, but let me tell you something I think you should think about.

You are a people. Well, who cares? I am a people too. Everyone are people. Oh, you are 'black people'. Well, who cares? It's just color! Nope, it's culure and heritage.

See? That's what it's looks like many are saying. But in fact, there's no difference between me and you. We're all people, in fact the same people according to science (all coming from Africa). There's no difference in DNA structure, the only differences we have between us in general is our past and history. Our forefathers. But don't let that seperate us!

There's not reason to think about yourself as black people or white people or anything, if we're all just people. If you think you are just a human like everyone else, what are your chances in getting what you want? A lot bigger than if you just think you're black. If you think you're black, you'll probably think things are much harder to get..

See what I'm saying? If not, let me know but don't get pissed.. Sorry if I have defended you, I didn't mean anything negative at all, I'm just writing down some thoughts about this.

Peace

I REMEMBER HIM! -BKyle
A nice OKP memory...

  

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k_orr
Charter member
80197 posts
Wed May-30-01 04:15 AM

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54. "not the place"
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

for this discussion. please read all the threads in the archive before you start questioning our identity.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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Chike
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32916 posts
Wed May-30-01 05:15 AM

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62. "Don't mean to support this digression, but..."
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

Continental European views on race can be very amusing... until you realize that increased immigration to these countries means WHETHER THEY WANT TO OR NOT they will have to learn to deal seriously with the world as it is and not how they would like it to be...

  

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Solitayre
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8114 posts
Wed May-30-01 05:03 AM

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60. "OK OK we know the problems,"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

But what are some answers to the question of,
"How can Black people use their money to gain economic fortitude?"

I think we have two options:

1.)If operating within the capitalist American system, we MUST create a SECRET ELITE of our own...Of which, only certain entertainers, and entrepreneurs may be members of...There must be a secret agenda to COUNTER ANY COUNTERPRODUCTIVE mentality which now has firm base within the Afrikan (why the K instead of the C??? Sorry, I was too busy taking math classes to take African-American History courses)family structure...In simpler terms, "Role Models" must aid in the RE-programming of black people...

Those within our "secret circle" must aid each other in funding projects dealing with OWNERSHIP and REVITALIZATION of our mass populated urban communities...We need "successful" (READ: rich) folk to help in the taking back of those lands in which the majority of us reside...

WE MUST SUPPORT BLACK FARMS & INFORM BLACK FARMERS TO THE NECESSITY OF THEIR FARMLAND, AND PROTECTION OF, TO COMPLETE OUR AGENDA...

Those within the fraternal order must encourage a disciplined approach to politics & economy, sciences & arts, with proper emphasis in ranking order stated...

We need the financial backing and counsel of influential political & religious leaders, BUT ONLY THOSE IN AGREEMENT WITH THE AGENDA OF SAVING THE BLACK RACE FROM ECONOMIC/POLITICAL ANNIHILATION IN THIS COUNTRY...

WE MUST OPENLY DENY THE EXISTENCE OF SUCH A FRATERNAL SOCIETIES EXISTENCE...Yet our children FROM BIRTH must be MOLDED to embrace the vision of TOTAL Black independence in America.

This is just a draft...I move to purchase lands and build bases to hide fraternity's most important minds, mouths, and financial backers in case of emergency.

OR

2.)We can purchase the lands, learn to farm, hunt and fish, build homes and create our own civilization within America, similar to the Amish...Basically we need ALMOST COMPLETE WITHDRAWAL from the monetary slave system in America...

MARVEL AT MY BRAND NEW SIGNATURE!!!!!!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
People nowadays got self respect confused.They walk around all day talking about,"I'm a great person. I'm a wonderful person....ME, ME, ME."
That's not self esteem...That's vanity.
-BESSIE DeLANEY

I could make millions if I led my peple the wrong way, to something I know is wrong. So now I have to makea decision. To step into a billion dollars and denounce my people or step into poverty and teach them the truth.
-MUHAMMAD ALI

I'm open minded like a pothead
doin what I gotta do
to keep the spot fed.- COMMON

Only those who permit themselves to be are despised.-ALEX HALEY

_____________________________________________
DOWNLOAD THE HELLO EP Spit by yours truly!
http://www.zshare.net/download/80520753aae60df7/
Just a PSA

  

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utamaroho

Wed May-30-01 05:08 AM

  
61. "wow!"
In response to Reply # 60


          

I could make millions if I led my peple the wrong way, to something I know is wrong. So now I have to makea decision. To step into a billion dollars and denounce my people or step into poverty and teach them the truth.
-MUHAMMAD ALI

  

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BooDaah
Charter member
32690 posts
Wed May-30-01 05:23 AM

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64. "very x-files of you"
In response to Reply # 60


          

my take is a bit less "covert" (for lack of a better term).

it simply entails:

1. using your/our skills to benefit us, rather than going to work for "them" and taking a slice of what they charge someone else. the problem here is #1 you're gonna have to work harder, #2 you might have to "make" less in the short term (but not necessarily in the long run because you reap the benefits for all your work instead of someone else.

2. combining our myriad skills to create a network of skills/resources. example - i own a web design firm. if you have a business, you should be able to come to ME and for a fair price and recieve quality service. i won't get over on you on the cost, or provide lackluster service. when i need YOUR service, i/you reciprocate. the problem here is not trying to "get what you can" at the expense of your folk. this "buy black" thing has ALWAYS been a good idea basically, but the manifestation has been piss poor to say the least.

3. we need to become less consumptive of our harvest. by simply running through all you earn, you never make any progress for the future of yourself or "the next". forgot buying a benz, hell buy a hyndai and invest the rest. just cause you can afford it, don't make it the "best buy". by trying to keep up with "them" (and internally creating an atmosphere of consumption -- but that's another post) we're cutting our own throats. "they" have ZERO taking our money, and laughing at our broke behind and then callinng us a "nigga/nigger" (or whatever) on the way out.

but none of this is anything new......

  

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utamaroho

Wed May-30-01 05:39 AM

  
65. "but none of this is anything new......"
In response to Reply # 64


          

...talking about this very thing the other day...

with the variety of skills we have, if nothing more we could form a circle of people who just provide resources and solutions to problems...

thinking about M2 alot latelty and economics, i would gladly have him on a team combined with other professions like mine (IT) and Solarus (psychology/afrikan studies) janey (stock market) ya Setshego (public health) and others...

finding like minded people with a focused goal and using their talents effectively is the challenge, but i thinkit can be done...

just a thought...driving here i wondered what would happen if we had a little real world financial experience on here. i.e. getting like a $20 donation from a good 50 people, sending money orders to M2 and watching say...some stock or mutual fund grow and make money (we'd all be able to view information on progress and learn during the process)...proceeds could go to the next reunion or something...



(((((PEACE)))))
________________________________________________________________
"Adversity causes some men to break, others to break records." -Anonymous

"Pain is weakness leaving the body." -A Navy SEALS Saying

"Fall seven times, stand up eight." -Japanese Proverb

"The conciousness of self is the greatest hindrance to the proper execution of all physical action." -Bruce Lee

  

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BooDaah
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32690 posts
Wed May-30-01 06:21 AM

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66. "tried that"
In response to Reply # 65


          

>what would happen if we
>had a little real world
>financial experience on here.

check the archives for something VERY similar ( something having to do with fundraising, the exact title slips me)

thought it was a good idea then, still do

just a matter of rallying the troops i guess

either way.....sign me up

(don't talk about it........be about it)

  

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utamaroho

Wed May-30-01 06:24 AM

  
67. "ok, here goes..."
In response to Reply # 66


          

(((((PEACE)))))
________________________________________________________________
"Adversity causes some men to break, others to break records." -Anonymous

"Pain is weakness leaving the body." -A Navy SEALS Saying

"Fall seven times, stand up eight." -Japanese Proverb

"The conciousness of self is the greatest hindrance to the proper execution of all physical action." -Bruce Lee

  

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M2
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Wed May-30-01 07:55 AM

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72. "RE: but none of this is anything new......"
In response to Reply # 65


          

You work in IT? So do I.....Proj. Mgr./Business Analyst/The Brotha who tells folk how to engineer software/The brotha who will tell you that your app will start making you a profit and/or saving you money exactly 60 days from now.

I know I sound like a Banker sometimes, but I'm really an engineer.......or a Banker masquerading as an engineer....or something like that.


Let's take your idea further

Each of US needs to set aside $100/month to invest, and then keep increasing that amount as our incomes grow. I know we want to think about the community, but we need to handle our own personal bidness first.

In other words, you think Blacks should save more money? You're Black....start saving more money....write down how you spend your loot...and find ways to save. For example, I save $50/month by purchasing Nantucket Nectars from the shopping club, instead of the cafe at work.....which will grow to be about 180k in 30 years........

Each of US needs to find like minded people to form Investment clubs with, pool our money and watch it grow.

Then we need to take the Investment club idea farther.....make it an Investment company.....that simply has a pool of money contributed by each partner.....and then that company buys stock, bonds.....invests in small companies, buys real estate (similar to what Urbgriot is doing), etc, etc.

We have to think BIG in terms of what we do with pooling our money, and we also need to think about what we do with our own.
So the first step in your idea, is for each of us to re-examine our own finances and get to saving/investing. NOW DAMNIT.



Peace,



M2




The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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utamaroho

Wed May-30-01 08:19 AM

  
74. "i'm trying to run Cisco one day..."
In response to Reply # 72


          

or at least learn and become leader of the tech end of networking technology...why? amount of capital generated...networking can be applied like you said to physical realm with black people...having a mastery of this technology will "open" doors that i want to get into. closed ones...locked ones...guarded ones...etc.

pull of some "fight club" shit...or something

project manager?!? the enemy TECHS rule!

(((((PEACE)))))
________________________________________________________________
"People are diverse, not everyone will EVEN want to do things your way. It's hard to convince people to do otherwise without the threat of say eternal damnation or convincing them they are hurting people." -M2

  

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M2
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Wed May-30-01 08:36 AM

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81. "RE: i'm trying to run Cisco one day..."
In response to Reply # 74


          


>project manager?!? the enemy TECHS rule!

C'mon now, you now the deal.

The Business Drives everything, technology is being utilized to meet the needs of the Business. Without the Proj. Managers and Business Analyst's to articulate the needs of the Business into a technical language(specs, design docs, UML docs, etc), and organize the effort (Project Plans), nothing would get done and the techs wouldn't even know what to do in the first place.


Proj. Managers and Analyst's rule.........damnit.


Besides, we buy ya'll Donuts every Friday.



Peace,





M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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utamaroho

Wed May-30-01 08:51 AM

  
82. "RE: i'm trying to run Cisco one day..."
In response to Reply # 81


          

>>Besides, we buy ya'll Donuts every Friday.

vegans don't eat donuts

but you're right about the business end. we wouldn't have jobs wihout the suits...HOWEVER, and this is why i'm in this field, the very people who seemingly work for the businesses CONTROL it throught eir kowledge of the technology! when someone wants to route money (data) who do they call? a technician. when someone hacks a system and steals money, who do they call to find it? a technician. being that all information is in the form of 1's and 0's who has then the power? businessmen who make deals and produce policy? or the techs that built the systems?





(((((PEACE)))))
________________________________________________________________
"People are diverse, not everyone will EVEN want to do things your way. It's hard to convince people to do otherwise without the threat of say eternal damnation or convincing them they are hurting people." -M2

  

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M2
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10072 posts
Wed May-30-01 09:33 AM

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89. "RE: i'm trying to run Cisco one day..."
In response to Reply # 82


          

What came first the chicken or the egg?

It does complex, the Business provides the need for technology, but he who controls technology controls the Business....BUT, if the Business didn't exist in the first place....


Anyway, that's why I make sure I understand Business AND Technology......that's where the real power is......and that's my value to clients as a consultant.

I can go down to the floor and chill with the techies and we can has out the technical details and I can understand their issues and what needs to be done. Then I can go chill with the suits, and convince them of the financial benefits of going with Y technology over X and/or show them bottom line reasoning why we should do X or Y.

He who understands both Technology and Business has the real power.


Peace,



M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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utamaroho

Wed May-30-01 09:37 AM

  
90. "i wanna be a consultant now..."
In response to Reply # 89


          

if you're ever in the atl area look me up!

how do i get a "suit"? (read: trajan horse)


(((((PEACE)))))
________________________________________________________________
"People are diverse, not everyone will EVEN want to do things your way. It's hard to convince people to do otherwise without the threat of say eternal damnation or convincing them they are hurting people." -M2

  

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BooDaah
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32690 posts
Wed May-30-01 08:23 AM

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77. "so..."
In response to Reply # 72


          

what's stopping us (meaning those right chea) from doing this (working together) now?

i'm down (again), but don't have the financial skills.

lets get bout it

4 real

  

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M2
Charter member
10072 posts
Wed May-30-01 07:36 AM

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70. "Word"
In response to Reply # 64


          


>2. combining our myriad skills to
>create a network of skills/resources.
>example - i own a
>web design firm. if you
>have a business, you should
>be able to come to
>ME and for a fair
>price and recieve quality service.
>i won't get over on
>you on the cost, or
>provide lackluster service. when i
>need YOUR service, i/you reciprocate.
> the problem here is
>not trying to "get what
>you can" at the expense
>of your folk. this "buy
>black" thing has ALWAYS been
>a good idea basically, but
>the manifestation has been piss
>poor to say the least.

I think the key here is to "Partner" with Black Businesses as opposed to "Patronize Them". I think that Black Businesses that can work together need to Partner with one another for mutual Benefit, (put ideologies aside) and work for Mutual Benefit.

Black Businesses that work on a Consumer Basis, just need to be the best....so there is no question of Buy Black or not.....everyone will Buy Black (regardless of race) because it's simply the best.

Throw out the "White people won't buy from us" arguments too. #1. Most people have no clue as to the race of the owner of a Businesses #2. Japanese Cars, because of WWII a lot of Americans refused to buy Japanese Cars....now the best sellings cars in the America are the Toyota Camry and the Honda Accord...and Lexus is the best selling Luxury Brand......



>
>3. we need to become less
>consumptive of our harvest. by
>simply running through all you
>earn, you never make any
>progress for the future of
>yourself or "the next". forgot
>buying a benz, hell buy
>a hyndai and invest the
>rest. just cause you can
>afford it, don't make it
>the "best buy". by trying
>to keep up with "them"
>(and internally creating an atmosphere
>of consumption -- but that's
>another post) we're cutting our
>own throats.

Don't get me started here, see my post on Black economics.

I think a lot of Blacks are concerned with immediate gratification, while invested your money takes time. It's hard to impress upon people that they could be millionaires in 30 years if they invest right, when they can buy that new SUV right now.

What people need to realize is that no one is saying you can't have the Benz, hell I want one too...I won't front. BUT you need you buy it when it doesn't hurt your saving/investing activities.

Here is a trick I encourage EVERYONE to do when shopping for a new car, I learned it from a mentor and I'm actually working on it right now...as I shop for a new car.

Make a spreadsheet:

Going accross the top you want time E.g. Month 1, Month 2, Month 3, Month 4, etc.

Vertical:

List the Max you can afford on a car note and then add it up over time. If it's $500 you see that after year one you've paid $6,000 year 2 $12,000 etc, etc.

Then list an anticipated car payment on various cars you're looking at, this is not hard..you can get an estimate from the dealer easily enough or use an online calculator with estimated interest rates on buys and estimate lease payments.

So let's say that the note on this particular car is $400 and there is a $100 difference.

Right Underneath the row for the car payment, put a row called (amount saved/invested) because you're assuming your going to save/invest the rest.

So you get $400 month 4 $800 Month 8...after year...add a formula that adds 12% to the yearly total.(call it the rate of return on your investment)

So if you put aside $100/month..the amount in the box for Year 1 should be $1,200 + 12% or $1,344...and then keep $100 for that...after year two the amount in the 2 year box should be: $2,544 + 12% or $2,849.00 and so and so on.


Repeat for all the cars you're considering....

Basically, you'll see the advantage of buying the Accord over the BMW.

You can even see the benefit to leasing and then buying it out at the end, or just buying it straight up...etc, etc.

It's tactics like that, that really show you an accurate picture of your financial health.....and allow you to manage your money wisely.




Peace,







M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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k_orr
Charter member
80197 posts
Wed May-30-01 07:47 AM

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71. "RE: Word"
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

>
>Black Businesses that work on a
>Consumer Basis, just need to
>be the best....so there is
>no question of Buy Black
>or not.....everyone will Buy Black
>(regardless of race) because it's
>simply the best.

exactly.

>Throw out the "White people won't
>buy from us" arguments too.
>#1. Most people have no
>clue as to the race
>of the owner of a
>Businesses #2. Japanese Cars, because
>of WWII a lot of
>Americans refused to buy Japanese
>Cars....now the best sellings cars
>in the America are the
>Toyota Camry and the Honda
>Accord...and Lexus is the best
>selling Luxury Brand......

The folks who fought in WWII still buy American.

Having worked with folks from the big 3, and analyzing Japanese and Euro car makers for those big three, American car companies still don't put the same amount of effort into design/building a car that their competitors do.

And remember that most Honda's, toyota's, et cetera are built here in America. My Civic is from Marysville.

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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Chike
Charter member
32916 posts
Wed May-30-01 05:18 AM

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63. "RE: Black folk need to quit bitchin'"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>ah, for the day when we
>USE this power.
>
>i'm about to join the club
>that feels like we can
>no longer say "we don't
>have access" to the kind
>of capital/resources/skills that will help
>us be self sufficient
>
>whatcha think?

I don't see how anyone could argue with you. Regardless of how much disparity exists between us and other communities (not just whites), who can argue that we are spending our money wisely, investing wisely, supporting our community wisely in ways that will better our position long-term?

No one!


  

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andromeda531

Wed May-30-01 09:12 AM

  
86. "RE: Black folk need to quit bitchin'"
In response to Reply # 0


          

its interesting that with the percentage of "black" millionaires in this country, none can seem to collaborate and found investment companies or any financial institution for that matter... maybe if "black" people as a collective "race" had more of an understanding of the importance of investing into "black" owned businesses or any lucrative business for that matter, we would be able to self sufficiently rebuild the communities in which we live, and now wait for any kind of reparation or governmental assistance... why is it that when a celebrity musician makes it, a clothing line is not too far behind??? ad531

  

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