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Bohemian_Bomb
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2410 posts
Mon Aug-06-01 03:02 PM

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"All-white groups to better society?"


          

I'm going to start with the real inspiration for this post:

"The first thing I tell them is that at least where my own particular Black Nationalist organization, the Organization of Afro-American Unity, is converned, the can't join us. I have these very deep feelings that white people who want to join black organizations are really just taking the escapist way to salve their consciences. By visibly hovering near us, they are "proving" that they are "with us." But the hard truth is this isn't helping to solve America's racist problem. The Negroes aren't the racists. Where the really sincere white people have got to do their "proving" of themselves is not among the black victims, but out on the battle lines of where America's racism really is - and that's in their own home communities; America's racism is among their own fellow whites. That's where sincere whites who really mean to accomplish something have got to work....
"I tell sincere white people, 'Work in conjunction with us- each of us working among our own kind.' Let sincere white individuals find all other white people they can who feel as they do - and let them form their own all-white groups, to work trying to convert other white people who are thinking and acting so racist. Let sincere whites go and teach non-violence to white people!"
-The Autobiography of Malcolm X

My name is Kenny, I'm 18, white, attending SFSU next year, and have been hovering around these boards taking in everything for the past year. To be honest, I'm suffering from two things, one of which is the ever infamous "white man's guilt" and the other (I dunno if it has ever been given a formal name) that I call "white apprehension", which simply encompasses a feeling of helplessness that I'm grouped among a culture of people so hypocritical and historically cruel, yet redeeming ourselves is nearly impossible.

The question I pose is this: What can we really do?

Malcolm X said that whites need to form all-white groups in order to improve themselves and their collective communities in order to better society for everyone.

I want to find out how everyone thinks these groups should or could function in order to better society. I'm not talking idealistically, but realistically. Meeting agendas, etc.

My thought was a 3 - piece process:
1. Destroy "white psyche."
-Alert them of historical and current racist occurances, white priviledge, etc. to the point where they are ashamed to be white.
2. Rebuild confidence in their race.
-(the hard part) Find a way to make them feel confident that they can be good and make a difference, what they can do, etc.
3. Teach understanding and colorblindness on an everyday level.
- I think we would have to have other all black or all Latino groups work cohesively in order to produce some sort of effect on the third part. Truthfully, this is that part I am totally lost on how to do.

Someone help me out here. I need some of your thoughts on if this is even potentially helpful and what can realistically be done. Looking forward to constructive responses.

Apologies if this topic has been addressed before.

PeaceLoveUnderstandingCompassion,

Bohemian_Bomb
AIM: theedge413

"You're only afraid to die if you ain't livin right" - Talib Kweli

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
RE: All-white groups to better society?
Aug 06th 2001
1
RE: society needs to be under western thinking?
Euroculture
Aug 06th 2001
2
Challenging Racism
Aug 06th 2001
3
Do you live in Boston?
Aug 07th 2001
5
RE: Challenging Racism
Aug 07th 2001
7
      RE: Challenging Racism
Aug 07th 2001
8
RE:....................
Euroculture
Aug 06th 2001
4
who said that
Aug 08th 2001
10
      Apparently, he did.
Aug 08th 2001
14
The First Step
Aug 07th 2001
6
RE: All-white groups to better society?
Aug 07th 2001
9
Much respect
Aug 08th 2001
11
Colorblindness
Aug 08th 2001
15
      RE: Colorblindness
Aug 08th 2001
18
           Prejudice
Aug 09th 2001
19
           Curiosity
Aug 09th 2001
20
RE: All-white groups to better society?
Aug 08th 2001
13
RE: All-white groups to better society?
peoke7
Aug 08th 2001
12
RE: All-white groups to better society?
Aug 08th 2001
16
      RE: All-white groups to better society?
Aug 08th 2001
17
      RE: All-white groups to better society?
Aug 09th 2001
21
           RE: All-white groups to better society?
Aug 09th 2001
22
RE: All-white groups to better society?
Aug 09th 2001
23

codewarrior
Charter member
1860 posts
Mon Aug-06-01 03:20 PM

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1. "RE: All-white groups to better society?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

understanding and colorblindness is where that shit needs to be taught. I know thats what my mama taught me and its what i preach when I hear some wannabe tough hicks talking trash about other races to make themselves feel better.

Whether its race, creed, gender, or sexual orientation, human beings are human beings thats what it boils down too.

  

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Euroculture

Mon Aug-06-01 03:24 PM

  
2. "RE: society needs to be under western thinking?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

of where America's racism really
>is - and that's in
>their own home communities; America's
>racism is among their own
>fellow whites.

African-americans are racist too. They give off propaganda amongst some realities. Anyone can wrong you son. Just cause you have white skin dont make you wrong. Just cause you have Black skin dont make you right. And vise versa.


That's where sincere
>whites who really mean to
>accomplish something have got to
>work....

Just relax drink tea and remain happy.

I'm suffering from
>two things, one of which
>is the ever infamous "white
>man's guilt"

Dont feel guilty, just learn from the past. You dont have to suck anyone cock here.

>The question I pose is this:
>What can we really do?

Just learn from previous wrongdoings, and not allow them, People can belly ache forever about the past it's not going to change the past.


>Malcolm X said that whites need
>to form all-white groups in
>order to improve themselves and
>their collective communities in order
>to better society for everyone.

All-white groups, All-Black groups, All-Latino groups will clash.

>My thought was a 3 -
>piece process:
>1. Destroy "white psyche."
> -Alert them of historical and
>current racist occurances, white priviledge,
>etc. to the point where
>they are ashamed to be
>white.

DONT BE ASHAMED TO BE WHITE....!!!!!
Black is beutiful
White is beutiful
Yellow is beutiful
Brown is beutiful



Western Civilization Lives!!!!

Earl grey tea in my cup please

  

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Nettrice
Charter member
61747 posts
Mon Aug-06-01 04:18 PM

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3. "Challenging Racism"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"White People Challenging Racism: Moving from Talk to Action" is a course being offered at the Cambridge Center for Adult Education (near Harvard Square). Jennifer Yanco, anti-racism activist, describes it as a "series for white folks who are committed to racial justice and doing something about it".

Yanco states, "We may think that we're not racist, but as whites raised in a society steeped with white supremacy, racism is deeply ingrained in us. We need to come to terms with this and begin to reeducate ourselves, making explicit the systems that privilege us at the expense of people of color, and develop ways to stand against them."

If you are in the Boston area and white this may be something for you to check out.

By embracing & defending Western civilization, many people are helping to maintain a white supremacist system. This means there will be no end to the action/reaction, fear/hatred between people based on race. As long as this system exists Black people and others will not be able to build/sustain their communities or feel safe under the laws.

When John Brown, a white man, decided to take a stand against slavery and the oppression of Black people he put everything on the line, including his family. In some American history books, Brown was crazy but I don't agree. I see Brown as an activist, a hero and a fighter. Stopping white supremacy must take place within your gates, in homes and in all the institutions. Black people need to empower themselves and stop being victims. White people need to relinquish power and stop supporting an oppressive system. The system must be overhauled in order for racism to evolve into a real society that values and benefits everyone.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"It amuses me when people read into instead of understand what I write or say or assume who I am. People will look at me and think it's cute that I say I am an artist until they ask me what schools I went to and discover I am serious...I am serious about everything I do and say and write including my posts, generalizations, ironies and all. That is integrity. Everything is real, sincere including my name on these boards."
--Me

"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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sistasoul
Charter member
876 posts
Tue Aug-07-01 12:41 PM

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5. "Do you live in Boston?"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          





If so, check out the "Philly Happenings" post about the Mumia Abdu Jamal hearing in a couple weeks. I'm trying to see if any peeps from Boston are rolling, because my sister and I are driving. Let me know...



~Peace

~~~~~~welcome to my sig~~~~~~~

"Perilous to us all are the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves."- Gandalf, 'The Two Towers'

"...the doper that I get the more I'm feeling broke as shit..."- Dre 3000

  

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verse_a_style
Charter member
292 posts
Tue Aug-07-01 03:23 PM

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7. "RE: Challenging Racism"
In response to Reply # 3


          

>"White People Challenging Racism: Moving from
>Talk to Action" is a
>course being offered at the
>Cambridge Center for Adult Education
>(near Harvard Square). Jennifer
>Yanco, anti-racism activist, describes it
>as a "series for white
>folks who are committed to
>racial justice and doing something
>about it".
>Yanco states, "We may think that
>we're not racist, but as
>whites raised in a society
>steeped with white supremacy, racism
>is deeply ingrained in us.
> We need to come
>to terms with this and
>begin to reeducate ourselves, making
>explicit the systems that privilege
>us at the expense of
>people of color, and develop
>ways to stand against them."

>If you are in the Boston
>area and white this may
>be something for you to
>check out.

I'm from the boston area and I think this is just what I've been looking for. I was thinking about starting my own type of forum at my high school, which is in newton, and this might give me some insight. The only problem is that I'm only 15, and it is an adult education course, but maybe they will let it slide because I am burning to put my thoughts to action (see my other post in response to the original). If you have any more info on the course I'd love to hear it.

>By embracing & defending Western civilization,
>many people are helping to
>maintain a white supremacist system.
> This means there will
>be no end to the
>action/reaction, fear/hatred between people based
>on race. As long
>as this system exists Black
>people and others will not
>be able to build/sustain their
>communities or feel safe under
>the laws.

I completely agree with your statements and I believe that in order for me to help improve them, I have to predominantly work in my community, but travel in order to help diminish my misconceptions about people of color. I've seen you post here and on a few of my posts (Perceptions of Black Males as being the epitome of cool, + the use of the term "black sheep") and I respect your views and would enjoy learning from what you have to say in the future. thanks again for the
info.

Be Out (c) Mr. Lif


A conversation between two girls in
my science class about the
definitions of hip hop and rap...

Girl 1: Rap is like just talking.

Girl 2: Yeah! It’s like telling stories
and stuff. So what’s hip hop?

Girl 1: Hip hop is like those crazy
people from the south like mystikal
who yell “GET ON THA FLO” and
“SHAKE IT FAST WATCH YO SELF”.
Those guys are scary. It’s like jeez
why are they so mad?

Girl 2: Yeah I know.

"Large Professor in the house
You know how we do
I skate on your crew
like Mario Lemieux
Peace to Ike Love
and the rest of the crew
I meet you guys in front the cleaners
Bring the blunts and the brew son"
- Phife diggy (keep it rollin')

In discman: Illmatic

  

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Nettrice
Charter member
61747 posts
Tue Aug-07-01 04:08 PM

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8. "RE: Challenging Racism"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

>The only problem is that
>I'm only 15, and it
>is an adult education course,
>but maybe they will let
>it slide because I am
>burning to put my thoughts
>to action (see my other
>post in response to the
>original). If you have any
>more info on the course
>I'd love to hear it.

The class begins October 23 and costs about $6 per session (5 sessions) or $25 for the whole thing I think. You may want to give them a call at 617.547.6789 to see if you can take the class of maybe get them to do something at your school. (Check your inbox)

>I
>respect your views and would
>enjoy learning from what you
>have to say in the
>future. thanks again for the
>
>info.

You are certainly welcome and good luck with your forum.


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"It amuses me when people read into instead of understand what I write or say or assume who I am. People will look at me and think it's cute that I say I am an artist until they ask me what schools I went to and discover I am serious...I am serious about everything I do and say and write including my posts, generalizations, ironies and all. That is integrity. Everything is real, sincere including my name on these boards."
--Me

"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Euroculture

Mon Aug-06-01 05:05 PM

  
4. "RE:...................."
In response to Reply # 0


          

Western Civilization is not the cause of every nations problem..dont believe that crap!!!!!!!


Western Civilization Lives!!!!

Tea and crumpette is good

  

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Ape Redwood
Charter member
6088 posts
Wed Aug-08-01 07:41 AM

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10. "who said that"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

------
"And you don't even know the alphabet,
but you still talkin'." --Vastaire

---------------------
Thursday, June 17th
Dujeous @ Bowery Ballroom
6 Delancey Street (at Bowery)
w/Addison Groove Project &
Gutbucket
10PM~$13
DUJEOUS debut LP "CITY
LIMITS" INSTOSNOW.
Buy my shit.

  

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Michelle
Charter member
133 posts
Wed Aug-08-01 03:02 PM

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14. "Apparently, he did."
In response to Reply # 10


          

"Life without knowledge is death in disguise" Kweli

  

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TheSauce
Charter member
1721 posts
Tue Aug-07-01 02:42 PM

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6. "The First Step"
In response to Reply # 0


          

that I would take is to separate the notion that someone's skin colour corresponds with their culture, behavoir, view, etc.

I think we here all know that this is complete bullshit but sadly many people still define who they are based primarily (sometimes completely) on the colour of their skin.

If people realize that being "white" means believing in a false reality (one in which variations in physical attributes reflect cultural differences, behavior, values, etc.) they will be able to begin define a new reality for themselves, THEN we can start using some of the suggestions mentioned above.

Just thought I'd throw that in there . . .

Giving you true Calcio since 1986

  

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verse_a_style
Charter member
292 posts
Tue Aug-07-01 04:10 PM

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9. "RE: All-white groups to better society?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

>"The first thing I tell them
>is that at least where
>my own particular Black Nationalist
>organization, the Organization of Afro-American
>Unity, is converned, the can't
>join us. I have these
>very deep feelings that white
>people who want to join
>black organizations are really just
>taking the escapist way to
>salve their consciences. By visibly
>hovering near us, they are
>"proving" that they are "with
>us." But the hard truth
>is this isn't helping to
>solve America's racist problem. The
>Negroes aren't the racists. Where
>the really sincere white people
>have got to do their
>"proving" of themselves is not
>among the black victims, but
>out on the battle lines
>of where America's racism really
>is - and that's in
>their own home communities; America's
>racism is among their own
>fellow whites. That's where sincere
>whites who really mean to
>accomplish something have got to
>work....
>"I tell sincere white people, 'Work
>in conjunction with us- each
>of us working among our
>own kind.' Let sincere white
>individuals find all other white
>people they can who feel
>as they do - and
>let them form their own
>all-white groups, to work trying
>to convert other white people
>who are thinking and acting
>so racist. Let sincere whites
>go and teach non-violence to
>white people!"
>-The Autobiography of Malcolm X

Even though this quote is from decades ago, it still is extremely relevant today in america and in my life. I was just preparing to do a post similar to yours, but you hit it on the dot, so I will just share my reactions...

>My name is Kenny, I'm 18,
>white, attending SFSU next year,
>and have been hovering around
>these boards taking in everything
>for the past year. To
>be honest, I'm suffering from
>two things, one of which
>is the ever infamous "white
>man's guilt" and the other
>(I dunno if it has
>ever been given a formal
>name) that I call "white
>apprehension", which simply encompasses a
>feeling of helplessness that I'm
>grouped among a culture of
>people so hypocritical and historically
>cruel, yet redeeming ourselves is
>nearly impossible.

I've also felt these feelings and although this may sound corny, you must fight the feelings of helplessness you're experiencing or else you will forever remain in the realm of "white guilt" where you do nothing but whine about how horrible whites are and desperately try to fit in with blacks. I’ve seen this happen to people at my school and it is horrible to watch them waste their once progressive ideals. There seem to be not many people who get past the recognition of white guilt phase you talked about below b/c of what seems to be a lack of integrity in their character. These sentiments are echoed in this quote from Koalalove in his infamous “you ain’t white” post:

“After visiting the perpetual injustices committed by White people they either run like the dickens to claim the nearest ethnic identity (even when they just dont fit), shudder to
themselves behind closed doors- fearing all people of color (I refer to this generally as the
White awareness of a reasonable and justified hostility to White people), or embrace it
wholly- and then again several more people are just oblivious.”



>Malcolm X said that whites need
>to form all-white groups in
>order to improve themselves and
>their collective communities in order
>to better society for everyone.

agreed.

>I want to find out how
>everyone thinks these groups should
>or could function in order
>to better society. I'm not
>talking idealistically, but realistically. Meeting
>agendas, etc.

Considering I’m still somewhere in your 3 step process (and I’m sure most counter-racist whites still are too), thinking about actually organizing has been very vague in my mind but it is something I am determined to do. I’m still 15, but I think I can start my acitvism by challenging racist comments made by people in my largely white community. Besides this communicating and the idea of doing my own forum at my high school, the workshop in harvard sq. mentioned below sounds like my other option. I’m sure it would give out strategies that you can apply to your 3 step process. If I can attend these meetings, then I can tell you what goes on through email.

>My thought was a 3 -
>piece process:
>1. Destroy "white psyche."
> -Alert them of historical and
>current racist occurances, white priviledge,
>etc. to the point where
>they are ashamed to be
>white.

Driving whites to the point where they are “ashamed of being white” is neccesary, but can also be very dangerous if one doesn’t do a good job in step 2. I’d suggest having whites read alternative history books such as Howard Zinn’s “a people's history," bell hooks' "black looks," and "the killing rage," or richard dyer's "white." Also when introducing this literature, tell them that you know that they will have a defensive reaction to it but that they should just take it easy and use a logical, scholarly approach before reacting.

>2. Rebuild confidence in their race.
> -(the hard part) Find a
>way to make them feel
>confident that they can be
>good and make a difference,
>what they can do, etc.

For this I would show them examples of white counter racists who are contributing to society, such as William “Upski” Wimsatt (author of “Bomb the Suburbs) and I’m trying to become aware of more, but my only other partially true guess is Bill Bradley, but I don’t have any evidence. I’d appreciate being informed of more people anyone else knows about. As for other ways to boost their confidence, I’d suggest telling them what their purpose is in this process, which I believe so far is that white americans have a moral debt to be owed to blacks.

>3. Teach understanding and colorblindness on
>an everyday level.
> - I think we would
>have to have other all
>black or all Latino groups
>work cohesively in order to
>produce some sort of effect
>on the third part. Truthfully,
>this is that part I
>am totally lost on how
>to do.

Your right, this is a tough part to teach because it deals with one’s ability to change what they think of a certain type of people the second they see them. I’ve been going through various stages in the infinitely long process of attaining color blindness. After I first became aware of my problem, I went through a 2-3 week stage of automatically calling every black person I saw in school “nigger” in my head. I know this sounds horrible and i did feel horrible, but I slowly moved on too saying in my head “oh wait, they could be smart/intelligent like some rappers I’ve listened to”. This stage isn’t much of an improvement b/c it’s still judging one’s personality by assuming that they are smart/intelligent before you meet them. Now I’m in a mixture of the two reactions plus sometimes I say rap lyrics that use the word nigger in my head when I see people of color. This may seem too personal, but it’s what I can say from experience. I think the solution to this is to meet a valid cross section of people of color so that you will be able to truly think of poc as being able to have any personality traits. But if you teach whites to do this, you have to warn them against swarming into black communities and being obnoxious and intrusive. Instead you should encourage them to travel amongst the two worlds (that is what I was told).

And as I said before, if I can learn what is going on in this below mentioned workshop I will do my best to inform you, but for now, my above response is what I have to say. Thanks again for posting this.

Be Out (c) Mr. Lif


A conversation between two girls in
my science class about the
definitions of hip hop and rap...

Girl 1: Rap is like just talking.

Girl 2: Yeah! It’s like telling stories
and stuff. So what’s hip hop?

Girl 1: Hip hop is like those crazy
people from the south like mystikal
who yell “GET ON THA FLO” and
“SHAKE IT FAST WATCH YO SELF”.
Those guys are scary. It’s like jeez
why are they so mad?

Girl 2: Yeah I know.

"Large Professor in the house
You know how we do
I skate on your crew
like Mario Lemieux
Peace to Ike Love
and the rest of the crew
I meet you guys in front the cleaners
Bring the blunts and the brew son"
- Phife diggy (keep it rollin')

In discman: Illmatic

  

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Federisco
Charter member
5002 posts
Wed Aug-08-01 08:39 AM

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11. "Much respect"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

It is very good to see others my age who mentally deal with this! You are a very clever kid - me i am 17 now and it is one big pleasure to read how you deal with realizing how the supremacy system whites benefit from goes down, and even more: fight it! Specially you being in USA. I live in Norway where i see much of the same, my country's people are also a part of the supremacy system/the western world, but still I try to tell myself it is different (because it is - norway is even different from europe).

I still have it difficult with it. I try to see a black face and see it just as i see a white face. But it is an impossible task, i live in a country where the ethnic people are white (many of the poor norwegians travelled to The Americas, which i feel ashamed of on their behalf - they are many of the racists you see today), but only over the last 30-20 years, as the country which used to be poor and cold became rich and cold (the oil!), there have come new citizens hailing from all other continents.

With becoming rich (the world's best country according to the UN, we just beat canada), but still avoiding EU (we havent joined yet, most norwegians are too nationalistic to do so), the government have officially been very helpful and open to all refugees and immigrants. Now they unfortunally have europe's most strict immigration policy. But still, in norway you find large numbers of vietnameese, pakistani, refugees from iraq, indian families, east europeans (kosovo, jugoslavia, bulgaria, romania) and african refugees. The minorities are definitivly there, and the second generation are becoming adults now (so you have today e.g. a pakistani (i think) writer in a large newspaper, writing every day with the perspective of the new norwegian citizens).

But it still is abit difficult for me to see an african person and avoid thinking a stereotype or prejudge the person. But i struggle hard, and now i am where the only thing i think is:
"Oh, she has african parents.... Now fredrik, don't think anything more. Don't prejudge. Don't prejudge. And don't think too loud. There, that is how it is to be."

I am on my way.. i visited a VERY norwegian gift shop yesterday, selling troll figures and pictures of ice bears. One of the two women behind the counter was black - most norwegians would think or even say loud (unfortunally) "Heh, an african selling norwegian souvenirs?!". I didnt, i just thought "Oh, african.". But i couldnt make myself NOT think about that she was african. And thinking about how norway has changed.

Outside the giftshop there were two tshirts/drums/sunglasses/shoes-sellers who were african as well. Goes to show how much norway has changed over the years. I think for the better

Good luck and
peace

░▒▓█▌¹♥▐█▓▒░

proud okayphotographer: http://www.okayplayer.com/okayphotographers/

"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." — Marshall McLuhan

  

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Michelle
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Wed Aug-08-01 03:17 PM

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15. "Colorblindness"
In response to Reply # 11


          

>But it still is abit difficult
>for me to see an
>african person and avoid thinking
>a stereotype or prejudge the
>person. But i struggle hard,
>and now i am where
>the only thing i think
>is:
>"Oh, she has african parents.... Now
>fredrik, don't think anything more.
>Don't prejudge. Don't prejudge. And
>don't think too loud. There,
>that is how it is
>to be."

I think true colorblindness will be difficult, if not impossible to achieve--here's why: We judge people based on how they look everyday. I know for certain that I do. Regardless of color, I know I'm totally prejudiced in some ways. Like--when you see a really big person walking down the street, do you think to yourself, "man, how did they get so fat?!"...I know I do. When I see somebody really unattractive, I'm always thinking bad thoughts, like, "geez, I'm glad I'm not them."

It's bad, because for all I know, those people could be some of the nicest people ever, and I'm missing out on meeting them because of my prejudices. I know people who even say some of this stuff out loud...I try not to, but occasionally if I see somebody with the tackiest clothes I've ever sighted, I'll make a comment. It's rude, but I sort of think it's human nature to think such things. And it also goes to show that colorblindness is going to be almost impossible to come by--we naturally notice the differences between people. The biggest difference between what I'm always noticing versus noticing race is that I feel that America is in a transition with race right now. In many of the more progressive areas of the country, (white) people are starting to think, "gee, being a different race isn't bad. It's just different." (I doubt most white people are to the point of saying that being another race is just great--it shows diversity or something) Whereas being fat or unattractive is still considered a first-rate crime in the minds of many. None of these should be looked down upon...but I tend to find it impossible, and I'm sure many other people do, too. Maybe this is the influence of conditioning (becoming accustomed to seeing skinny beautiful white women in magazines and on tv), or maybe it's something else. I'm not sure.

Does anybody get what I'm trying to say here? ...I'm afraid I butchered my point.
"Life without knowledge is death in disguise" Kweli

  

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verse_a_style
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Wed Aug-08-01 04:05 PM

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18. "RE: Colorblindness"
In response to Reply # 15


          

>Does anybody get what I'm trying
>to say here? ...I'm afraid
>I butchered my point.

You made very good sense and I liked you comparing people judging fat/ugly people to people judging people b/c of race. For me it brought up the question: how much more important is concentrating on diminishing your racial prejudices in concentrating on losing your fat/ugly prejudices? I know it is a lot more important, but should we completely disregard fat/ugly prejudices?


Be Out (c) Mr. Lif

"Large Professor in the house
You know how we do
I stay on your crew
like Mario Lemieux
Peace to Ike Love
and the rest of the crew
I meet you guys in front the cleaners
Bring the blunts and the brew son"
- Phife diggy (keep it rollin')

In discman: Illmatic

  

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Federisco
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Thu Aug-09-01 03:06 AM

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19. "Prejudice"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

Holding prejudice against a black/brown person is bad, holding prejudice against a fat/ugly dressed person is bad, holding prejudice against WOMEN is bad.

But some are more critical than others. A black person can be black, fat AND a woman. But, what affects most is the prejudice against race (because there isn't a system holding down the fat man the way it is a system holding down the black man).

So - i'd start with my prejudice based on nationality/ethnicity(sp)/race. Then it should also be easier to deal with the others.

░▒▓█▌¹♥▐█▓▒░

proud okayphotographer: http://www.okayplayer.com/okayphotographers/

"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." — Marshall McLuhan

  

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Federisco
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Thu Aug-09-01 03:15 AM

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20. "Curiosity"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

Prejudice is one thing. But what about curiosity? Well-intentioned curiosity.

I remember a norwegian comedian made a book: "The art of being a negro". He teamed up with a pakistani (because, naiv norwegians see just the skin color and assume they are negro) and killed all the myths using irony and mad humor! It was about how to react when you see the first black man walking down the street, and so on.

A black person travelling to certain parts of the world (japan, certain oldfashioned parts of norway, eastern europe) will mos def experience the curiosity. And also a brown american person travelling back to the motherland will experience it.

What do you think about it?

░▒▓█▌¹♥▐█▓▒░

proud okayphotographer: http://www.okayplayer.com/okayphotographers/

"Most of our assumptions have outlived their uselessness." — Marshall McLuhan

  

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JBlaze
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Wed Aug-08-01 10:56 AM

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13. "RE: All-white groups to better society?"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

The most encouraging thing about this topic is the fact that an 18 year old posted it and you get a response from a 15 year old like the one above.

I agree with verse_a_style, the only way for most of the issues to get dispelled is through interaction with others in order to put some real faces on these fears, myths, misconceptions, etc. But in the U.S. there are so many walls built (mostly from class IMHO and embedded in the culture (institutionalized)) that it is very hard to even do that.

  

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peoke7

Wed Aug-08-01 09:44 AM

  
12. "RE: All-white groups to better society?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I think you just answered your own question friend...
or at least it's a start... PEACE

  

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natural
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Wed Aug-08-01 03:32 PM

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16. "RE: All-white groups to better society?"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

the general idea of this post is very good, it's exactly what i try to deal with everyday, but my situation is a bit different than some of yours. a lot of you live in "white neighborhoods and have fallen to the supremacist thought, but you recognize the wrong in it and wish to change it. the case isnt the same for me. i am 18 and lived my entire life in a minority(black, hispanic etc.) populated and those ideas have never crossed my mind. i never had to force myself to change my outlook of a black person when i saw them. it's good though that you recognize that it is wrong to think such things and desire to change.
also, the statement in a couple posts above was glad with the fact that this post was started by an 18 year old and there is as young as 15 responding, i agree that this is good, but it also shows something bad. it shows that even though that good-to-do intentions are there, its going to take a while before us young people get into the world and have the opportunity to make the change. the problem is not amongst the younger people, its the older people that hold these views and take them to their workplace and in society in general, and also bring these ideas to their children, this keeps that mentality going. I'm looking into this somewhat pessimisticly but i want the change and feel the change needs to come fast. if i could wake up tomorrow with all these ideas erased and gone, i would do anything for that, but any change is worth it.

  

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verse_a_style
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Wed Aug-08-01 03:59 PM

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17. "RE: All-white groups to better society?"
In response to Reply # 16


          

>the general idea of this post
>is very good, it's exactly
>what i try to deal
>with everyday, but my situation
>is a bit different than
>some of yours. a
>lot of you live in
>"white neighborhoods and have fallen
>to the supremacist thought, but
>you recognize the wrong in
>it and wish to change
>it. the case isnt
>the same for me.
>i am 18 and lived
>my entire life in a
>minority(black, hispanic etc.) populated and
>those ideas have never crossed
>my mind. i never
>had to force myself to
>change my outlook of a
>black person when i saw
>them.

I find your situation very interesting because it is basically the reverse way for whites to deal with racism compared to the suburban way because your way has a whtie individual fully accept blacks and other minorites first before (for lack of a better term) educating their self about the history of white supremacy and reading stuff about race relations. Of course there are variations within these two methods, but from my experience they seem to be the two prime ways.

It is also interesting to see the different ways whites in your situation react to growing in a mostly minority community. I've seen many just here on okayplayer who claim they experience the same racism as blacks, and also ones who claim they aren't white. One of the more positive examples is Billy "Upski" Wimsatt because he is doing a lot of good work and he grew up in a similar situation as yours.

It's good to see some variations.

Be Out (c) Mr. Lif

"Large Professor in the house
You know how we do
I skate on your crew
like Mario Lemieux
Peace to Ike Love
and the rest of the crew
I meet you guys in front the cleaners
Bring the blunts and the brew son"
- Phife diggy (keep it rollin')

In discman: Illmatic

  

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Bohemian_Bomb
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2410 posts
Thu Aug-09-01 03:11 PM

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21. "RE: All-white groups to better society?"
In response to Reply # 16


          

The truth is, I too come from a primarily Latino neighborhood. On the other hand, I saw so much inter-minority racism from the Mexicans around me towards blacks in the neighborhood. Growing up and going to the school I went to, it was somewhat small for Sacramento, CA, but at the same time, we hung out with each other, regardless of who they were or what they looked like. It was more based on what grade you were in. It was only in high school when people started hanging out with people primarily of their own ethnic background or direct culture. At the same time, I still saw my friends from grade school without thinking of my friend Saul as Mexican, Tim as black, Jennifer as Asian, Diana as white, etc.

Maybe another way to attack the problems is with young parents, now that I think of it, in order to teach their white children to ignore race. In the sand box, there's no spicks or crackers or niggers, the white kid doesn't watch the black kid cause he thinks that he might steal his sweatshirt; it's just lil kid's hell bent on making the biggest damn castle ever, enjoying one another's company, innocent and colorblind.

Sorry for my rant.

And in response to an 18 year old starting and other young kid's continuing, I only have this to say. I think that's definitely great, considering that as I enter college, I still have a lot of room to decide what I want to do, in order to hopefully build my life around creating a better atmosphere for the citizens of America to enjoy.

Bohemian_Bomb
AIM: theedge413

"You're only afraid to die when you ain't livin right" - Talib Kweli

  

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Bohemian_Bomb
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Thu Aug-09-01 03:15 PM

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22. "RE: All-white groups to better society?"
In response to Reply # 21


          

Hope everyone understands my usage of racial slurs in context to the discussion. When reading over it after it was posted, I figured maybe I could have changed that line in order to avoid em.

Anyway, apologies to anyone possibly offended.

Bohemian_Bomb
AIM: theedge413

"You're only afraid to die when you ain't livin right" - Talib Kweli

  

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DeeX
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144 posts
Thu Aug-09-01 04:26 PM

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23. "RE: All-white groups to better society?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

>I'm going to start with the
>real inspiration for this post:
>
>
>"The first thing I tell them
>is that at least where
>my own particular Black Nationalist
>organization, the Organization of Afro-American
>Unity, is converned, the can't
>join us. I have these
>very deep feelings that white
>people who want to join
>black organizations are really just
>taking the escapist way to
>salve their consciences. By visibly
>hovering near us, they are
>"proving" that they are "with
>us." But the hard truth
>is this isn't helping to
>solve America's racist problem. The
>Negroes aren't the racists. Where
>the really sincere white people
>have got to do their
>"proving" of themselves is not
>among the black victims, but
>out on the battle lines
>of where America's racism really
>is - and that's in
>their own home communities; America's
>racism is among their own
>fellow whites. That's where sincere
>whites who really mean to
>accomplish something have got to
>work....
>"I tell sincere white people, 'Work
>in conjunction with us- each
>of us working among our
>own kind.' Let sincere white
>individuals find all other white
>people they can who feel
>as they do - and
>let them form their own
>all-white groups, to work trying
>to convert other white people
>who are thinking and acting
>so racist. Let sincere whites
>go and teach non-violence to
>white people!"
>-The Autobiography of Malcolm X
>
>My name is Kenny, I'm 18,
>white, attending SFSU next year,
>and have been hovering around
>these boards taking in everything
>for the past year. To
>be honest, I'm suffering from
>two things, one of which
>is the ever infamous "white
>man's guilt" and the other
>(I dunno if it has
>ever been given a formal
>name) that I call "white
>apprehension", which simply encompasses a
>feeling of helplessness that I'm
>grouped among a culture of
>people so hypocritical and historically
>cruel, yet redeeming ourselves is
>nearly impossible.
>
>The question I pose is this:
>What can we really do?
>
>
>Malcolm X said that whites need
>to form all-white groups in
>order to improve themselves and
>their collective communities in order
>to better society for everyone.
>
>
>I want to find out how
>everyone thinks these groups should
>or could function in order
>to better society. I'm not
>talking idealistically, but realistically. Meeting
>agendas, etc.
>
>My thought was a 3 -
>piece process:
>1. Destroy "white psyche."
> -Alert them of historical and
>current racist occurances, white priviledge,
>etc. to the point where
>they are ashamed to be
>white.
>2. Rebuild confidence in their race.
>
> -(the hard part) Find a
>way to make them feel
>confident that they can be
>good and make a difference,
>what they can do, etc.
>
>3. Teach understanding and colorblindness on
>an everyday level.
> - I think we would
>have to have other all
>black or all Latino groups
>work cohesively in order to
>produce some sort of effect
>on the third part. Truthfully,
>this is that part I
>am totally lost on how
>to do.
>
>Someone help me out here.
>I need some of your
>thoughts on if this is
>even potentially helpful and what
>can realistically be done. Looking
>forward to constructive responses.
>
>


Start with this article below then go to this website http://www.fiskrri.org/articles-essays/wise/index.htm read it and spread the info.

Acknowledging and Challenging Whiteness
Tim Wise, AlterNet
July 3, 2000

Being white means never having to think about it. James Baldwin said that many years ago, and it's perhaps the truest thing ever said about race in America. That's why I get looks of bewilderment whenever I ask, as I do when lecturing to a mostly white audience: "what do you like about being white?"


Never having contemplated the question, folks take a while to come up with anything.


We're used to talking about race as a Black issue, or Latino, Asian, or Indian problem. We're used to books written about "them," but few analyze what it means to be white in this culture. Statistics tell of the disadvantages of "blackness" or "brownness" but few examine the flipside: namely, the advantages whites receive as a result.


When whites hear about things like racial profiling, we think of it in terms of what people of color go through, never contemplating what it means for us, and what we don't have to put up with. We might know that a book like The Bell Curve denigrates the intellect of blacks, but we ignore the fact that in so doing, it elevates the same in whites, much to our advantage in the job market and schools, where those in authority will likely view us as more competent than persons of color.


That which keeps people of color off-balance in a racist society is that which keeps whites in control: a truism that must be discussed if whites are to understand our responsibility to work for change. Each thing with which "they" have to contend as they navigate the waters of American life, is one less thing whites have to sweat: and that makes everything easier, from finding jobs, to getting loans, to attending college. Even those whites who would never support, let alone join a hate group -- and indeed condemn the actions of such characters -- ultimately are "steadied" by their existence, since they are an everpresent concern and damaging distraction for people of color just trying to live their lives. For most blacks, hate groups are one more thing with which to contend, things whites (unless they are gay or Jewish) view mostly as oddities or talk show entertainment, rather than a true source of pain, fear and anxiety.


On a personal level, this issue of the immensity of racial privilege has been made clear to me repeatedly: Like the time I attended a party in a white suburb and one of the few black men there announced he had to leave before midnight, because he was afraid his trip home -- which required that he travel through all-white neighborhoods -- would likely result in being pulled over by police, who would wonder what he was doing out so late in the "wrong" part of town.


He would have to be cognizant -- in a way I would not -- of every lane change, every blinker he did or didn't remember to use, whether his lights were too bright, or too dim, and whether he was going even 5 miles an hour over the limit: as any of those could serve as pretexts for pulling one over, pretexts that are used regularly against certain folks, but not others.


The virtual invisibility that whiteness affords those of us who have it is like psychological money in the bank, the proceeds of which we cash in every day while others are in a state of perpetual overdraft.


Yet, it's not enough to see these things, or think about them, or come to appreciate what whiteness means. Though important, this kind of enlightenment is no end in itself. Rather, it is what we do with the knowledge and understanding that matters.


If we recognize our privileges, yet fail to challenge them, what good is our insight? If we intuit discrimination, yet fail to speak against it, what have we done to rectify the injustice?


And that's the hard part: because privilege tastes good and we're loath to relinquish it. Or even if willing, we often wonder how to resist: how to attack unfairness and make a difference.


As to why we should want to end racial privilege -- aside from the moral argument- -the answer is straightforward: The price we pay to stay one step ahead of others is enormous. In the labor market, we benefit from racial discrimination in the relative sense, but in absolute terms this discrimination holds down most of our wages and living standards by keeping working people divided and creating a surplus labor pool of "others" to whom employers can turn when the labor market gets tight or workers demand too much in wages or benefits.


Furthermore, economist Andrew Brimmer notes that discrimination against African Americans alone siphons off about $240 billion annually from the economy in terms of lost productivity since it artificially restricts talent, ability, and black output. That is a siphoning with consequences for everyone, as it approaches the same amount as that which our nation spent on defense at the height of the cold war, and is far more than the amount spent on all social programs for working-class and poor folks combined.


Whites benefit in relative terms from discrimination against people of color in education, by receiving, on average, better resources and class offerings. But in absolute terms, can anyone deny with a straight face that the creation and perpetuation of under- and mis-educated persons of color harms us all?


And even disparate treatment in the justice system has its blowback on the white community. We may think little of the racist growth of the prison-industrial complex, as it snares far fewer of our children. But considering that the prisons warehousing black and brown bodies compete for the same dollars needed to build colleges for everyone, the impact is far from negligible.


In California, since 1980, nearly 30 new prisons have opened, compared to two four-year colleges, with the effect that the space available for people of color and whites to receive a good education has been curtailed. So folks fight over the pieces of a diminishing pie -- as with Proposition 209 which ended affirmative action -- instead of uniting against their common problem: the mostly white lawmakers who prioritize jails and slash taxes on the wealthy, rather than meeting the needs of most people.


As for how whites can challenge the system -- other than by joining the occasional demonstration or voting for candidates with a decent record on race issues -- this is where we'll need creativity.


Imagine, for example, that groups of whites and people of color started going to department stores as discrimination "tester" teams, and that the whites spent a few hours, in shifts, observing how they were treated relative to the black and brown folks who came with them. And imagine what would happen if every white person on the team approached a different white clerk and returned just-purchased merchandise, when they observed disparate treatment, explaining they weren't going to shop in a store that profiled or otherwise racially discriminated. Imagine the faces of the clerks, confronted by other whites demanding equal treatment for persons of color.


Far from insignificant, if this happened often enough, it could have a serious effect on behavior, and the institutional mistreatment of people of color in at least this one setting: after all, white clerks could no longer be sure if the white shopper in lady's lingerie was an ally who would wink at unequal treatment, or whether they might be one of "those" whites: the kind that would call them out for doing what they always assumed was acceptable.


Or what about setting up "cop watch" programs like those already in place in a few cities? White folks, following police, filming officer's interactions with people of color, and making their presence known, when and if they observe officers engaged in abusive behavior.


Or contingents of white parents, speaking out in a school board meeting against racial tracking in class assignments: a process through which kids of color are much more likely to be placed in basic classes, while whites are elevated to honors and advanced placement, irrespective of ability. Protesting this kind of privilege -- especially when it might be working to the advantage of one's own children -- is the sort of thing we'll need to do if we hope to alter the system we swear we're against.


We'll have to stop moving from neighborhoods when "too many" people of color move in.


We'll have to stop running to private schools, or suburban public ones, and instead fight to make the schools serving all children in our community better.


We'll need to consider taking advantage of the push for publicly funded "charter schools" by joining with parents of color to start institutions of our own, (preferably led by those same people of color) like the "Freedom Schools" established in Mississippi by the Student Non- Violent Coordinating Committee in 1964. Such charter schools could teach not only traditional subject matter, but also the importance of critical thinking, anti-racist commitment, and social and economic justice. If these are things we say we care about, yet we haven't at present the outlets to demonstrate our commitment, we'll have to create those institutions ourselves.


And we must protest the privileging of elite, white male perspectives in school textbooks. We have to demand that the stories of all who have struggled to radically transform society be told: and if the existing texts don't do that, we must dip into our own pockets and pay for supplemental materials that teachers could use to make the classes they teach meaningful.


And if we're in a position to make a hiring decision, we should go out of our way to recruit, identify and hire a person of color.


What these suggestions have in common -- and they're hardly an exhaustive list -- is that they require whites to leave the comfort zone to which we have grown accustomed. They require time, perhaps money, and above all else, courage; and they ask us to focus a little less on the safer, though important goal of "fixing" racism's victims (with a bit more money for this or that, or a little more affirmative action), and instead to pay attention to the need to challenge and change the perpetrators of and collaborators with the system of racial privilege. And those are the people we work with, live with, and wake up to every day.


It's time to revoke the privileges of whiteness.

Tim Wise is an antiracist educator, organizer and writer based in Nashville, Tennessee.






"I must warn you, ma'am, that people invariably flee the room when I walk in because I'm from Levittown"

"And what a spectacular act of noblesse oblige on her part to escort the lowly Levittowner around Washington on Inauguration Day!"

"If one were sufficiently paranoid, one might easily misinterpret a decision to go get seconds on that chicken hash as a deliberate insult to the municipality of Levittown."

"Close examination of the guest list reveals many other guests with backgrounds more humble than Bill O'Reilly's. Yes, even more humble than an accountant's son from Levittown. We can only hope that they didn't take offense when O'Reilly himself departed."

I'm working-class Irish American Bill O'Reilly … pretty far down the social totem pole," he says. Growing up in the 1960s, he watched his father "exhausting himself commuting from Levittown" to work as an accountant for an oil company. Dad "never made more than $35,000"—which would be $100,000 or more in today's money

  

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