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abduhu
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1734 posts
Mon Oct-08-01 11:53 AM

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"Bin Laden is not a Muslim?!?"


          

this question is for either:
muslims or,
those who know about islam in depth.

1.what words or actions has nullified his belief and made him a kaafir (disbeliever), according to those who believe he is one of these ppl?

2.what words or actions have made him a munaafiq(hypocrite), according to those who believe he is one of these ppl?

3.what words or actions have made him muslim by name only,
according to those who believe he is one of these ppl?

*****and for the muslims, remember what the prophet muhammad (saws) warned us about. that is, about saying certain things about ppl, and if they are not true, then the things we said will apply to us.

salaamun 'alaikum.

Words to ponder over............

5.44. It was We who revealed the Torah (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islám) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear Me, and sell not My signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are unbelievers.

5.81. If only they had believed in Allah, in the Prophet, and in what hath been revealed to him, never would they have taken them for friends and protectors, but most of them are rebellious wrong-doers.

the biography of Prophet Muhammad (saws):
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/

The following is paraphrased from today's (10/08/2001) interview with Rumsfeld via sattelite hookup on CBS news this morning:

Gumbel: Can you assess the damages from last nights bombing raids in Kabul?
Rumsfeld: Its too early for any clear assessment

Gumbel: There are reports from the Taliban that there were collateral damages in the forms of Women, children, and elderly, can you confirm or deny these reports

Rumsfeld: There were no civilian casualties, these were all military targets

Gumbel: I thought you said it was too early for any assessment of the raids

Rumsfeld (now squirming in seat): Uhhhhh...ummmmmm.....welllll...i am 'reasonably' sure what I just said was correct

courtesy of abbstrack

subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You). ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except You). astaghfiruka (I seek Your forgiveness), wa atuubu ilaika (and I turn to You in Repentance).

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
RE: Bin Laden is not a Muslim?!?
Oct 08th 2001
1
unislamic does not = not muslim
Oct 08th 2001
3
RE: unislamic does not = not muslim
Oct 08th 2001
10
he follows the sunnah to a tee.
Oct 09th 2001
27
      go back to sleep now, babis.......................
Oct 10th 2001
28
RE: Bin Laden is not a Muslim?!?
Oct 08th 2001
2
What makes someone a muslim?
Oct 08th 2001
4
RE: What makes someone a muslim?
Oct 08th 2001
6
abduhu...
Oct 08th 2001
8
      RE: abduhu...
Oct 08th 2001
12
Jews
Oct 09th 2001
15
      welcome back...
Oct 10th 2001
29
RE: Bin Laden is not a Muslim?!?
Oct 08th 2001
5
RE: Bin Laden is not a Muslim?!?
d-Best
Oct 08th 2001
7
Question(s)
Oct 08th 2001
9
RE: Bin Laden is not a Muslim?!?
Oct 08th 2001
11
Bin Laden
Oct 09th 2001
21
RE: Bin Laden is not a Muslim?!?
Oct 09th 2001
13
Shocked
Oct 09th 2001
14
Why not???
Oct 09th 2001
16
RE: Why not???
peoke7
Oct 09th 2001
18
that may be
Oct 09th 2001
19
      his only confession was......................
Oct 09th 2001
20
RE: Why not???
Oct 09th 2001
23
RE: Bin Laden is not a Muslim?!?
peoke7
Oct 09th 2001
17
I guess he's no more/less Muslim
Oct 09th 2001
22
the purpose of this thread was/is:
Oct 09th 2001
24
my thoughts on bin laden:
Oct 09th 2001
25
RE: my thoughts on bin laden:
Oct 09th 2001
26
      Heah
Oct 10th 2001
30

M2
Charter member
10072 posts
Mon Oct-08-01 12:38 PM

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1. "RE: Bin Laden is not a Muslim?!?"
In response to Reply # 0


          


I'm shocked you would even pose this question, as if to claim that HE is in fact a Muslim....or maybe you just like to hear the Obvious.

#1. WTC, Pentagon, Somerset County PA. If he had anything do with the attacks, he's no longer a Muslim. Muslim's don't murder people, if you Murder someone you go straight to Hell.

#2. He's been involved with other terrorist attacks that he HAS owned up to, see #1.

#3. In his little speech he more or less owned up to it, see #1.

#4. In his little speech he discussed further terror to the people of the United States, see #1.

#5. The Taliban, he supports the Taliban government, the Taliban Government is a perversion of Islam, if you're 1/2 the Muslim you claim to be, you already know this.

Stoning Women for going/trying to work? C'mon now.

#6. Committing foul acts in the name of Allah, I could break out the Hadiths and Ayats for you, but you already know the answer to this one.

Since I'm not a big fan of shooting fish in a Barrel with a Bazooka, I'll just sign off now.



Peace,





M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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abduhu
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1734 posts
Mon Oct-08-01 04:35 PM

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3. "unislamic does not = not muslim"
In response to Reply # 1


          

>#1. WTC, Pentagon, Somerset County PA.
>If he had anything do
>with the attacks, he's no
>longer a Muslim.

this doesnt negate his islam. its unislamic, but doesnt negate his islam.

Muslim's don't
>murder people, if you Murder
>someone you go straight to
>Hell.

muslims dont, or are forbidden to?
there is a big difference.
and im sorry, but no one goes straight to hell for anything they done, muslim or not.

hell and paradise will come in the hereafter, and not until then. next.......

>#2. He's been involved with other
>terrorist attacks that he HAS
>owned up to, see #1.

confession to a sin, doesnt negate his islam. next......
>
>#3. In his little speech he
>more or less owned up
>to it, see #1.

see the response to #2.

>#4. In his little speech he
>discussed further terror to the
>people of the United States,
>see #1.
>
threatening to terrorize people doesnt negate his islam. next.........

>#5. The Taliban, he supports the
>Taliban government, the Taliban Government
>is a perversion of Islam,
>if you're 1/2 the Muslim
>you claim to be, you
>already know this.
>
support for the taliban's so-called "perversion of islam" doesnt negate his islam. and if it did, youd be a non muslim too, seeing as how you support nonmuslims. so what is more likely to make a person a non muslim:
1.the support of taliban, who testify they believe in Allah, or
2. the support of the bush administration, who testify a disbelief in Allah.
next...........

>Stoning Women for going/trying to work?
>C'mon now.

ive never heard of such a rediculous thing.
and i doubt you have either.
in any case, that doesnt negate his nor their islam. next.........
>
>#6. Committing foul acts in the
>name of Allah, I could
>break out the Hadiths and
>Ayats for you, but you
>already know the answer to
>this one.

this doesnt negate his islam either.

what you have presented are not things that negate anyones islam. some of them are, however, things that are not known to and are forbidden in islam. but they do not negate islam, no more so than a muslim owning a liquor store and selling it, a muslim man committing adultery on his wife, a muslim son disobeying his parents, a muslim lying, a muslim stealing, a muslim cheating. just makes you a bad, disobedient muslim.

if you disagree w/ what i have said, then i say as Allah had instructed His prophet (saws) to say in His Noble Book, Al Qur'aan: "haatoo burhaanukum in kuntum saadiqeen." "produce your proof, if you are truthful."

you made the call, so now it is on you to prove it.

peace.

Words to ponder over............

5.44. It was We who revealed the Torah (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islám) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear Me, and sell not My signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are unbelievers.

5.81. If only they had believed in Allah, in the Prophet, and in what hath been revealed to him, never would they have taken them for friends and protectors, but most of them are rebellious wrong-doers.

the biography of Prophet Muhammad (saws):
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/

The following is paraphrased from today's (10/08/2001) interview with Rumsfeld via sattelite hookup on CBS news this morning:

Gumbel: Can you assess the damages from last nights bombing raids in Kabul?
Rumsfeld: Its too early for any clear assessment

Gumbel: There are reports from the Taliban that there were collateral damages in the forms of Women, children, and elderly, can you confirm or deny these reports

Rumsfeld: There were no civilian casualties, these were all military targets

Gumbel: I thought you said it was too early for any assessment of the raids

Rumsfeld (now squirming in seat): Uhhhhh...ummmmmm.....welllll...i am 'reasonably' sure what I just said was correct

courtesy of abbstrack

subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You). ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except You). astaghfiruka (I seek Your forgiveness), wa atuubu ilaika (and I turn to You in Repentance).

  

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M2
Charter member
10072 posts
Mon Oct-08-01 05:41 PM

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10. "RE: unislamic does not = not muslim"
In response to Reply # 3


          

#1. What's the basic principle behind Islam? The 5 Pillars? That there is no god but Allah? That Muhammad is the last messenger of Allah?

Well of those count and are valid Answers.

BUT, the most basic principle which the above mentioned ones flow from, is that the religion doesn't change, it isn't modified by man, man doesn't add to it, that there aren't multiple versions of the religion, that men don't represent themselves as agents of Allah when they aren't, that men don't do things in the name of Islam that are wrong/contrary to the beliefs of the religion.

It's one thing to do something UnIslamic, it's one thing to commit that act in the name of Islam and encourage other Muslim's to follow suit. When a man does that, he's following his own Belief system, he's no longer a Muslim, he's now a Muslim in name only.

#2. Read post #2.

I think the brotha explained it quite well.


#3. What's the point of this? That Bin Ladin is right? That Muslims should support him? Enlighten us.



Peace,





M2


The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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yuckwheat
Charter member
1367 posts
Tue Oct-09-01 05:59 PM

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27. "he follows the sunnah to a tee."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

he's a con-artist, he's a manipulator, he's got this warped "it's us muslims vs. all these dirty kafirs" worldview, his goal is the cleansing of arabia of all non-muslims, he's an arab nationalist, he masturbates about a heaven described in the quran with voluptous pale skinned "houris" and "pretty" young boys, he's a terrorist like the prophet who justifies his terrorism with absurd claims of his dirty arab brothers being "oppressed".

yes, he's definitely a muslim. the best kind there is.

he's your brother.




  

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abduhu
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1734 posts
Wed Oct-10-01 02:53 AM

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28. "go back to sleep now, babis......................."
In response to Reply # 27


          

.......it was just a bad dream.

good night.

Words to ponder over............

5.44. It was We who revealed the Torah (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islám) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear Me, and sell not My signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are unbelievers.

5.81. If only they had believed in Allah, in the Prophet, and in what hath been revealed to him, never would they have taken them for friends and protectors, but most of them are rebellious wrong-doers.

the biography of Prophet Muhammad (saws):
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/

The following is paraphrased from today's (10/08/2001) interview with Rumsfeld via sattelite hookup on CBS news this morning:

Gumbel: Can you assess the damages from last nights bombing raids in Kabul?
Rumsfeld: Its too early for any clear assessment

Gumbel: There are reports from the Taliban that there were collateral damages in the forms of Women, children, and elderly, can you confirm or deny these reports

Rumsfeld: There were no civilian casualties, these were all military targets

Gumbel: I thought you said it was too early for any assessment of the raids

Rumsfeld (now squirming in seat): Uhhhhh...ummmmmm.....welllll...i am 'reasonably' sure what I just said was correct

courtesy of abbstrack

subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You). ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except You). astaghfiruka (I seek Your forgiveness), wa atuubu ilaika (and I turn to You in Repentance).

  

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Sudani
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631 posts
Mon Oct-08-01 03:34 PM

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2. "RE: Bin Laden is not a Muslim?!?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"...He tries to hide behind the banner of Islam but he is very uneducated as to what Islam is OR he is IGNORING the laws of Islam which qualifies him as a Tyrant or a Munafiq( a Hypocrite)..."- Sudani speaking on Bin Laden


Ignoring laws of Islam would make him a munafiq at most and a tyrant in the least...

Here is a limited rendering of the meaning of the Surah 63 The Hypocrites.



Surah 63. The Hypocrites
1. When the Hypocrites come to thee, they say, "We bear witness that thou art indeed the Messenger of Allah." Yea, Allah knoweth that thou art indeed His Messenger, and Allah beareth witness that the Hypocrites are indeed liars.

2. They have made their oaths a screen (for their misdeeds): thus they obstruct (men) from the Path of Allah. truly evil are their deeds.

3. That is because they believed, then they rejected Faith: So a seal was set on their hearts: therefore they understand not.

4. When thou lookest at them, their exteriors please thee; and when they speak, thou listenest to their words. They are as (worthless as hollow) pieces of timber propped up, (unable to stand on their own). They think that every cry is against them. They are the enemies; so beware of them. The curse of Allah be on them! How are they deluded (away from the Truth)!

5. And when it is said to them, "Come, the Messenger of Allah will pray for your forgiveness", they turn aside their heads, and thou wouldst see them turning away their faces in arrogance.

6. It is equal to them whether thou pray for their forgiveness or not. Allah will not forgive them. Truly Allah guides not rebellious transgressors.

7. They are the ones who say, "Spend nothing on those who are with Allah.s Messenger, to the end that they may disperse (and quit Medina)." But to Allah belong the treasures of the heavens and the earth; but the Hypocrites understand not.

8. They say, "If we return to Medina, surely the more honourable (element) will expel therefrom the meaner." But honour belongs to Allah and His Messenger, and to the Believers; but the Hypocrites know not.

9. O ye who believe! Let not your riches or your children divert you from the remembrance of Allah. If any act thus, the loss is their own.

10. and spend something (in charity) out of the substance which We have bestowed on you, before Death should come to any of you and he should say, "O my Lord! why didst Thou not give me respite for a little while? I should then have given (largely) in charity, and I should have been one of the doers of good".

11. But to no soul will Allah grant respite when the time appointed (for it) has come; and Allah is well acquainted with (all) that ye do.
-----------------

The reality is that action is judged by intention and in reality, only Allah and our own selves know what we intend when doing a deed, we can fool ourselves into thinking that we are doing something good...but our hearts know the real.
With that said...I hope that Bin Ladens full agenda is not to fund the killing of innocent people or support the suicide of a muslim, both of which are severly UNISLAMIC. When judging between two subjects, Allah will choose he/those who are more just regardless of the religion they may claim. I do not play patriot games, I just want whoever is guilty to be dealt with.

was salaam,

Sudani

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The strong one is not the one who overcomes people, the strong one is he who overcomes his ego (ghalaba nafsah).


  

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dancnf00l
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250 posts
Mon Oct-08-01 04:41 PM

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4. "What makes someone a muslim?"
In response to Reply # 2


          

anyone know the answer? I know in Judaism you are Jewish if your mother is jewish and even if you do "unjewish" things or dont believe you are still by jewish law jewish.

peace,

dancnf00l

  

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abduhu
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1734 posts
Mon Oct-08-01 05:11 PM

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6. "RE: What makes someone a muslim?"
In response to Reply # 4


          

what makes a person a muslim is:

1. testifying that there is nothing worthy of worship, except The One God, or Allah in arabic. and testifying that muhammad (saws) is the messanger and servant of Allah.
2. praying 5 times a day
3. pay the obligatory charity-zakaat
4. fasting the month of ramadan (coming soon)
5. making the pilgrimage to mecca, when finacially and physically able.

may Allah guide us all.

Words to ponder over............

5.44. It was We who revealed the Torah (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islám) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear Me, and sell not My signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are unbelievers.

5.81. If only they had believed in Allah, in the Prophet, and in what hath been revealed to him, never would they have taken them for friends and protectors, but most of them are rebellious wrong-doers.

the biography of Prophet Muhammad (saws):
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/

The following is paraphrased from today's (10/08/2001) interview with Rumsfeld via sattelite hookup on CBS news this morning:

Gumbel: Can you assess the damages from last nights bombing raids in Kabul?
Rumsfeld: Its too early for any clear assessment

Gumbel: There are reports from the Taliban that there were collateral damages in the forms of Women, children, and elderly, can you confirm or deny these reports

Rumsfeld: There were no civilian casualties, these were all military targets

Gumbel: I thought you said it was too early for any assessment of the raids

Rumsfeld (now squirming in seat): Uhhhhh...ummmmmm.....welllll...i am 'reasonably' sure what I just said was correct

courtesy of abbstrack

subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You). ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except You). astaghfiruka (I seek Your forgiveness), wa atuubu ilaika (and I turn to You in Repentance).



  

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dancnf00l
Charter member
250 posts
Mon Oct-08-01 05:27 PM

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8. "abduhu..."
In response to Reply # 6


          

how old must somebody be before they can become muslim? are the rules that you gave me rules that muslims follow, or rules that one must follow in order to be muslim, or both? also how much money is the mandatory charity? and since we're on the topic, i dont know what kind of muslim you are, but do you consider those who follow the nation of islam to be muslims? i've heard different things from people. THanks and ill probably have more questions, because they dont teach anything about it in school and theres only one muslim in my grade.

dancnf00l

  

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abduhu
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1734 posts
Mon Oct-08-01 05:47 PM

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12. "RE: abduhu..."
In response to Reply # 8


          

>how old must somebody be before
>they can become muslim?

old enough to be aware of the decision that he/she is making by choosing islam as a religion and way of life.

are
>the rules that you gave
>me rules that muslims follow,
>or rules that one must
>follow in order to be
>muslim, or both?

both. but in order to be-come a muslim, is the first one, which is a statement of belief. the rest are actions that stem from this belief.

also
>how much money is the
>mandatory charity?

2.5% of (starting at, on upwards) approx. 1000.00 worth of wealth (money, gold, business, produce, livestock) saved up over a year's period of time.

and since
>we're on the topic, i
>dont know what kind of
>muslim you are, but do
>you consider those who follow
>the nation of islam to
>be muslims?

those who follow the nation of islam and BELIEVE that Allah came in the person of a man, DO NOT BELIEVE in life after death, and believe that the white man was created by black sceintists, instead of Allah, I dont consider them to be muslim.

i've heard
>different things from people.

>THanks and ill probably have
>more questions, because they dont
>teach anything about it in
>school and theres only one
>muslim in my grade.
>
>dancnf00l

youre welcome. if you have any more questons, post them, inbox me or email me. i am about to go to bed, so i can be able to get up for the first of the five prayers a day. 6:30 am is right around the corner.

and may Allah guide you and all those who seek His guidance.

peace.

Words to ponder over............

5.44. It was We who revealed the Torah (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islám) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear Me, and sell not My signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are unbelievers.

5.81. If only they had believed in Allah, in the Prophet, and in what hath been revealed to him, never would they have taken them for friends and protectors, but most of them are rebellious wrong-doers.

the biography of Prophet Muhammad (saws):
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/

The following is paraphrased from today's (10/08/2001) interview with Rumsfeld via sattelite hookup on CBS news this morning:

Gumbel: Can you assess the damages from last nights bombing raids in Kabul?
Rumsfeld: Its too early for any clear assessment

Gumbel: There are reports from the Taliban that there were collateral damages in the forms of Women, children, and elderly, can you confirm or deny these reports

Rumsfeld: There were no civilian casualties, these were all military targets

Gumbel: I thought you said it was too early for any assessment of the raids

Rumsfeld (now squirming in seat): Uhhhhh...ummmmmm.....welllll...i am 'reasonably' sure what I just said was correct

courtesy of abbstrack

subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You). ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except You). astaghfiruka (I seek Your forgiveness), wa atuubu ilaika (and I turn to You in Repentance).

  

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HalleluYAH
Charter member
1370 posts
Tue Oct-09-01 05:02 AM

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15. "Jews"
In response to Reply # 4


          

This is not true, in particularly your mother has nothing to do with it....being an Israelite anyways who knows what these so -called jews have come up with next...jews aren't even teh people of teh tanach they add to and take away from teh laws...tehy bend teh rules to suit themselves....

they are not, have a chance to be(everyone does) but may never take it to be an Israelite...but Jews are a name...they are not Israelites, they are theives and blasphemers...

  

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Slap
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725 posts
Wed Oct-10-01 06:57 AM

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29. "welcome back..."
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

from the dead, Hitler.

  

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abduhu
Charter member
1734 posts
Mon Oct-08-01 05:01 PM

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5. "RE: Bin Laden is not a Muslim?!?"
In response to Reply # 2


          

>"...He tries to hide behind the
>banner of Islam but he
>is very uneducated as to
>what Islam is OR he
>is IGNORING the laws of
>Islam which qualifies him as
>a Tyrant or a Munafiq(
>a Hypocrite)..."- Sudani speaking on
>Bin Laden
>
>
>Ignoring laws of Islam would make
>him a munafiq at most
>and a tyrant in the
>least...

muslims ignore islamic laws all the time, but that dont make them nonmuslims or hypocrites. maybe hypocritical, but not a hypocrite. a muslim can do a kufr act, but that doesnt make him a kaafir.

btw, the description in those verse sound more like the leaders of our so called islamic states, more so than it does bin laden. but whats just my opinion.

>-----------------
>
>The reality is that action is
>judged by intention and in
>reality, only Allah and our
>own selves know what we
>intend when doing a deed,
>we can fool ourselves into
>thinking that we are doing
>something good...but our hearts know
>the real.

and on that note, we can conclude that we dont really know what bin ladens intentions are. ppl can say one thing, and can mean something else. but we are not Allah to know. our messanger (saws) has given us signs of a hypocrite in the hadith, and thats all we can go by. b/c hypocrisy is not a thing easily known.

>With that said...I hope that Bin
>Ladens full agenda is not
>to fund the killing of
>innocent people or support the
>suicide of a muslim, both
>of which are severly UNISLAMIC.

i hope it isnt either. as i told m2 though, unislamic doesnot = not muslim.
th muslim adulterer, alcohol drinker, weed smoker, eve murderer is still a muslim. unislamic, yes. not muslim, no.

>When judging between two subjects,
>Allah will choose he/those who
>are more just regardless of
>the religion they may claim.

even if they dont believe in Him?

>I do not play patriot
>games, I just want whoever
>is guilty to be dealt
>with.
>
we all want the same thing, which is justice. to punish the perpetratiors of that henious crime.
and although you didnt say this:
handing over bin laden, for near proof, to be tried at a later date, when more proof is collected, is not justice.

you know how the islamic law system works, and what Allah asks for (proof, witnesses) before even making an accusation on anyone. and He is Ahkam Al Haakimeen- The Best of those Who Judge, and His Law is The Best Law, and that is the law we should judge by (see Qur'aan quote below). so how about the man made law? how does it stand up to Allah's Law?

>was salaam,
>
>Sudani
>
was salaam.

Words to ponder over............

5.44. It was We who revealed the Torah (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islám) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear Me, and sell not My signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are unbelievers.

5.81. If only they had believed in Allah, in the Prophet, and in what hath been revealed to him, never would they have taken them for friends and protectors, but most of them are rebellious wrong-doers.

the biography of Prophet Muhammad (saws):
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/

The following is paraphrased from today's (10/08/2001) interview with Rumsfeld via sattelite hookup on CBS news this morning:

Gumbel: Can you assess the damages from last nights bombing raids in Kabul?
Rumsfeld: Its too early for any clear assessment

Gumbel: There are reports from the Taliban that there were collateral damages in the forms of Women, children, and elderly, can you confirm or deny these reports

Rumsfeld: There were no civilian casualties, these were all military targets

Gumbel: I thought you said it was too early for any assessment of the raids

Rumsfeld (now squirming in seat): Uhhhhh...ummmmmm.....welllll...i am 'reasonably' sure what I just said was correct

courtesy of abbstrack

subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You). ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except You). astaghfiruka (I seek Your forgiveness), wa atuubu ilaika (and I turn to You in Repentance).

  

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d-Best

Mon Oct-08-01 05:24 PM

  
7. "RE: Bin Laden is not a Muslim?!?"
In response to Reply # 5


          

i feel and comprehend all these points. Your transcription of the Gumbel interview with Rumsfield is hot, too, I think I'll borrow that for a vigil in my area.

Question, (feel free to e-mail me direct), where are you working out of, I'm trying to find some speakers for future events, and I'm digging the perspective you bring.


D.Best

  

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Brandard
Charter member
11908 posts
Mon Oct-08-01 05:34 PM

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9. "Question(s)"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

"you know how the islamic law system works, and what Allah asks for (proof, witnesses) before even making an accusation on anyone. and He is Ahkam Al Haakimeen- The Best of those Who Judge, and His Law is The Best Law, and that is the law we should judge by (see Qur'aan quote below). so how about the man made law? how does it stand up to Allah's Law?"

i see what you are saying regarding this BUT the crime was perpetuated against non-muslims in a non-muslim region. So shouldnt the laws of that region be used to put the defendent on trial?

How does it work with the Taliban if a non-muslim commits a crime agaisnt a muslim in Afgahnistan?

Giving You True Lesson Moderation Since'03
******

Want something archived? thats what an inbox is for

  

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M2
Charter member
10072 posts
Mon Oct-08-01 05:45 PM

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11. "RE: Bin Laden is not a Muslim?!?"
In response to Reply # 5


          

>btw, the description in those verse
>sound more like the leaders
>of our so called islamic
>states, more so than it
>does bin laden. but whats
>just my opinion.

Really? Elaborate.

I'd really like to know why you're more or less defending Bin Ladin or trying to downplay his actions.



Peace,



M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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PhiGammaDawg
Charter member
589 posts
Tue Oct-09-01 06:12 AM

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21. "Bin Laden"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

is just using religion a facade for his greater motive.
It is pathetic that he would try to use Muslim's frustrations all over the world to justify his cause. Didn't Hitler use scapegoating too? Scape goating is done
#1. to divert people's problems
#2. to control ppl
#3. to otherwise simplify a complicated answer
#4. to draw emotion from ppl who are sympathetic to the cause

Bin Laden is just another demagogue.

Phi

-------------------------------
'where the leaders at?'
- me

--------------------------
girl: "You don't know who your fucking with!"
Ramon: "YOU DON'T KNOW WHO your fucking WITH, BITCH!"

-hilarious convo in BB

  

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Mr Magic
Charter member
2571 posts
Tue Oct-09-01 04:51 AM

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13. "RE: Bin Laden is not a Muslim?!?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

many of his actions as pointed out here are unislamic but that does not mean he isn't a muslim. what he believes is between himself and god. however he MUST be condemned for calling on people to do unislamic things, especially since he does it in the name of allah.
____________________________________________

"Nations deny causality by ascribing blame to other terrorists, rogue nations, and so on. Singling out an enemy, we short-circuit the introspection necessary to see our own karmic responsibility for the terrible acts that have befallen us. Until we own causes we bear responsibility for, in this case in the Middle East, last week's violence will make no more sense than an earthquake or cyclone, except that in its human origin it turns us toward rage and revenge."
- part of a recent statement from the Buddhist Peace Fellowship

http://www.last.fm/user/mrmagic/

  

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urbgriot
Charter member
11445 posts
Tue Oct-09-01 05:01 AM

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14. "Shocked"
In response to Reply # 0


          

What happen???

This is a joke..

https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

  

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HalleluYAH
Charter member
1370 posts
Tue Oct-09-01 05:15 AM

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16. "Why not???"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Being Muslim is not something to you given by birthright, it is not something given to you by the language you speak or by how many times you attend a mosque or make ramadan or what have you...


Being a muslim, being an israelite, being a buddhist is like being yourself...or being a musician

How can a musician, claim to be so, if all they did was recite poetry...?


It doesn't make sense....why are you trying to excuse away this mans continued sins which he confesses to and say that this man is a muslim...

He has confessed to killing people, to killing people in teh name of the Divine Mother Father GOD and will continue to do so...if that is not an act that a Muslim does, if that is not and ACT that a Muslim is supposed to do, then why is he doing it?

It is just that simple...yes he may have been sent by the Divine to complete these acts, and indeed he was, but to now bring up argument to his defense as a muslim is a joke...

OPen your eyes, men lie, men steal and men kill, these acts are not the acts of righteous people...and taht is what it boils down to, a muslim, an israelite a musician and your Higher Self are all righteous beings...and that is what you are inherently...

if you do no do righteous acts then you are not righteous you are wicked...there is no shade of grey, there is no half and half...

My husband a muslim man broke it down to me like this...there are two angels one on each shoulder, one for you counts all your good deeds and one for you counts all your bad deeds...

if you die and your bad deeds outwiegh your good, there will be no rest for your soul, if you pass and your good outweigh your bad then you join the ALL...

Now I ask you instead of looking at another look at yourself, don't worry abot wether bin laden is a muslim, you don't know and asking tha question is blaspheme because you assume to know by way of GOD that which you do not...

so leave it alone and don't cast that judgment, because you are not GOD and to act as though you are is blaspheme, be not righteous in thine own eyes...

Instead follow through with your good deeds your acts of love and offering to The Most High....gather togehter with your family and friends and loved ones, this time should be a time of ingatehring, fasting and praying purging and cleansing...cleanse your minds of all of this....and finally live your life and be grateful...

these are all the things that we can do...but worrying about others and theirs will only leave you unprepared...




  

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peoke7

Tue Oct-09-01 05:30 AM

  
18. "RE: Why not???"
In response to Reply # 16


          

for the record... he has never confessed to any of those things... the american press has claimed that he has... but he hasn't... just like the Bombing of the WTC in 93... the key witness who gave the testimony that put those cats away... we'll the American government paid him $4 million to testify...
right off the bat the idea of a fair ball is out the window...
again, Bin Laden has never admitted to these things... CNN, NBC, C-SPAN, ABC, and CBS has... but they are also the one's claiming to bring you up to the minute coverage with cute names like "America STrikes Back"... can anyone else see who's really sick here?

  

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HalleluYAH
Charter member
1370 posts
Tue Oct-09-01 05:58 AM

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19. "that may be"
In response to Reply # 18


          

But I heard from my husband that he did...

So I assumed since my husband speaks arabic and has lived in Sudan for over 17 years that he would know...

but that was an assumption...I wonder where my husband would have gotten that from though???


---------------------------

Your seats may not be used as a flotation device.

When the time comes, do you really think that the place where you choose to relax and pass out your non-cypher ideologies is gonna save you????





  

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abduhu
Charter member
1734 posts
Tue Oct-09-01 06:01 AM

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20. "his only confession was......................"
In response to Reply # 19


          

......to the somali incident.

he only praised the others. which was not a good thing to do.

Words to ponder over............

5.44. It was We who revealed the Torah (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islám) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear Me, and sell not My signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are unbelievers.

5.81. If only they had believed in Allah, in the Prophet, and in what hath been revealed to him, never would they have taken them for friends and protectors, but most of them are rebellious wrong-doers.

the biography of Prophet Muhammad (saws):
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/

The following is paraphrased from today's (10/08/2001) interview with Rumsfeld via sattelite hookup on CBS news this morning:

Gumbel: Can you assess the damages from last nights bombing raids in Kabul?
Rumsfeld: Its too early for any clear assessment

Gumbel: There are reports from the Taliban that there were collateral damages in the forms of Women, children, and elderly, can you confirm or deny these reports

Rumsfeld: There were no civilian casualties, these were all military targets

Gumbel: I thought you said it was too early for any assessment of the raids

Rumsfeld (now squirming in seat): Uhhhhh...ummmmmm.....welllll...i am 'reasonably' sure what I just said was correct

courtesy of abbstrack

subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You). ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except You). astaghfiruka (I seek Your forgiveness), wa atuubu ilaika (and I turn to You in Repentance).

  

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abduhu
Charter member
1734 posts
Tue Oct-09-01 06:33 AM

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23. "RE: Why not???"
In response to Reply # 16


          

>Being Muslim is not something to
>you given by birthright, it
>is not something given to
>you by the language you
>speak or by how many
>times you attend a mosque
>or make ramadan or what
>have you...

im sorry, but this is wrong. a person can be a muslim by birth and only going to the mosque 1 time a day. and if the language had anything to do with it, everybody and they moms would be muslim. i dont know how many times ive heard muslims say "as salaamu alaikum". right?

>It doesn't make sense....why are you
>trying to excuse away this
>mans continued sins which he
>confesses to and say that
>this man is a muslim...

where have i tried to excuse him? i condemned the attacks several times. and for some of the things he has called for, i denouced that too. but he has confessed to nothing, except as i said already, the somali incident. thats it.

>
>He has confessed to killing people,
>to killing people in teh
>name of the Divine Mother
>Father GOD and will continue
>to do so...if that is
>not an act that a
>Muslim does, if that is
>not and ACT that a
>Muslim is supposed to do,
>then why is he doing
>it?

so if you, a jew, eat some pig today, will you be a jew tomorrow? yes you will.

likewise if usama, a muslim, commits a sin today, he'll be a muslim tomorrow.

>It is just that simple...yes he
>may have been sent by
>the Divine to complete these
>acts, and indeed he was,
>but to now bring up
>argument to his defense as
>a muslim is a joke...
>
obviously you missed the other convos, where ppl were saying that b/c of what they believe he did, that he wasnt a muslim. not me. it was a rhetorical question.

i dont know about your belief, but in mine, there are rules that determine whether a muslim is not a muslim. and the criterior for that has not been broken.

>My husband a muslim man broke
>it down to me like
>this...there are two angels one
>on each shoulder, one for
>you counts all your good
>deeds and one for you
>counts all your bad deeds...
>
>
>if you die and your bad
>deeds outwiegh your good, there
>will be no rest for
>your soul, if you pass
>and your good outweigh your
>bad then you join the
>ALL...

whats this got to do with being a muslim now? there will be muslims in hell too. he might be one of them, i might be one of them. and i seek refuge from Allah from that, for myself and ALL the muslims.

>Now I ask you instead of
>looking at another look at
>yourself, don't worry abot wether
>bin laden is a muslim,
>you don't know and asking
>tha question is blaspheme because
>you assume to know by
>way of GOD that which
>you do not...

again. im not concerned like that. according to what makes a muslim a muslim, and what makes a muslim not a muslim, he is still a muslim, just with poor judgement in some areas.

>so leave it alone and don't
>cast that judgment, because you
>are not GOD and to
>act as though you are
>is blaspheme, be not righteous
>in thine own eyes...

the judgement is there to be cast. see the end of verse 5.44 below.

Words to ponder over............

5.44. It was We who revealed the Torah (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islám) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear Me, and sell not My signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are unbelievers.

5.81. If only they had believed in Allah, in the Prophet, and in what hath been revealed to him, never would they have taken them for friends and protectors, but most of them are rebellious wrong-doers.

the biography of Prophet Muhammad (saws):
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/

The following is paraphrased from today's (10/08/2001) interview with Rumsfeld via sattelite hookup on CBS news this morning:

Gumbel: Can you assess the damages from last nights bombing raids in Kabul?
Rumsfeld: Its too early for any clear assessment

Gumbel: There are reports from the Taliban that there were collateral damages in the forms of Women, children, and elderly, can you confirm or deny these reports

Rumsfeld: There were no civilian casualties, these were all military targets

Gumbel: I thought you said it was too early for any assessment of the raids

Rumsfeld (now squirming in seat): Uhhhhh...ummmmmm.....welllll...i am 'reasonably' sure what I just said was correct

courtesy of abbstrack

subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You). ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except You). astaghfiruka (I seek Your forgiveness), wa atuubu ilaika (and I turn to You in Repentance).

  

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peoke7

Tue Oct-09-01 05:24 AM

  
17. "RE: Bin Laden is not a Muslim?!?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Also remember what the Koran says about being a witness... seeing with your own eyes... having at least two people present... the thing to consider is we don't know what that man is saying cause we haven't heard him speak... in fact, everytime he speaks someone is talking over him making quotes... I'll be honest... I don't see a terrorist... I see someone who is strong enough to stand up to someone stronger than him and not back down... David and Goliath... also remember in the Bible how the Romans made Christ out to be the worst thing ever... I am not convinced Bin Laden performed those acts... I am not convinced that George Bush didn't... all I know is one of those cats have already conned us out of a true election... now, which one is that? He has already been proven to be a liar... so why would this be any different?

  

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LexM
Charter member
28342 posts
Tue Oct-09-01 06:13 AM

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22. "I guess he's no more/less Muslim"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

than a Christian who goes around blowing up abortion clinics...

in their eyes, they're doing "God's work", just as Bin Laden thinks he is...

to me, that's all it boils down to.

_________________________________________________________
*moment of silence for all those lost & those yet to be found*

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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abduhu
Charter member
1734 posts
Tue Oct-09-01 06:43 AM

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24. "the purpose of this thread was/is:"
In response to Reply # 0


          

1. to clear up whether of not usama bin laden is a muslim, based on proofs and evidences from islam, and not opinions, thoughts and emotions.

2. to warn the muslims, in a subtle manner, about calling a muslim a disbeliever, which is a serious sin in islam.

3. not to glorify usama or his cause.

4. not to promote usama or his cause.

5. not to justify the actions of those who performed those terrible acts against humanity.

6. not to exuse those (whoever they/he/she may be) who performed those terrible acts against humanity.

7. not to say im in agreement with everything that usama has said/ or done.

thank you.

continue on........................

Words to ponder over............

5.44. It was We who revealed the Torah (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islám) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear Me, and sell not My signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are unbelievers.

5.81. If only they had believed in Allah, in the Prophet, and in what hath been revealed to him, never would they have taken them for friends and protectors, but most of them are rebellious wrong-doers.

the biography of Prophet Muhammad (saws):
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/

The following is paraphrased from today's (10/08/2001) interview with Rumsfeld via sattelite hookup on CBS news this morning:

Gumbel: Can you assess the damages from last nights bombing raids in Kabul?
Rumsfeld: Its too early for any clear assessment

Gumbel: There are reports from the Taliban that there were collateral damages in the forms of Women, children, and elderly, can you confirm or deny these reports

Rumsfeld: There were no civilian casualties, these were all military targets

Gumbel: I thought you said it was too early for any assessment of the raids

Rumsfeld (now squirming in seat): Uhhhhh...ummmmmm.....welllll...i am 'reasonably' sure what I just said was correct

courtesy of abbstrack

subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You). ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except You). astaghfiruka (I seek Your forgiveness), wa atuubu ilaika (and I turn to You in Repentance).

  

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abduhu
Charter member
1734 posts
Tue Oct-09-01 07:04 AM

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25. "my thoughts on bin laden:"
In response to Reply # 0


          

-he has said he is not responsible, and as a muslim i take his word for it.

-he has praised the 9/11 and other acts, which i dont agree with him on.

-he has said somethings, which i dont agree with him on.

-he has said somethings, which i do agreee with him on.

-he has done somethings, which i do agree with him on.

-he has not confessed to anything (except somali incident), only praised it, which i do not agree with him on.

-he has called for justice for the palestinians, removed sanctions from iraq, removal of u.s. troops, and i agree with that.

-he has called for more terrisim on the u.s., which i do not agree with.

-he has stood up to the most oppresive regimes in the world, and i agree with him on that.

-he had sponsored muslims to fight in afghanistan, and i agreed with that.

-he has/does believe that there is no god worthy of worship, except Allah, and i agree with that.

-he has/does believe that muhammad (saws)is his messanger and servant, and i agree with that.

-he has anounced his disliking for the american govt, and i agree with the reasons for his disliking.

-he has anounced his disliking for the saudi govt, and i agree with the reasons for that.

-he has anounced his disliking for most of the arab/ so-called islamic states, and i agree with the reasons for that.

-he has called for an islamic state, and EVERY MUSLIM BETTER AGREE WITH THAT, besides myself.

-he has praised somethings supposedly done in the name of Allah, which i dont agree with.

-he has/does believe that there is no god worthy of worship, except Allah, and i agree with that.

-he has/does believe that muhammad (saws0 is his messanger and servant, and i agree with that.

but all in all, hes still a muslim.

Words to ponder over............

5.44. It was We who revealed the Torah (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews,
by the prophets who bowed (as in Islám) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear Me, and sell not My signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are unbelievers.

5.81. If only they had believed in Allah, in the Prophet, and in what hath been revealed to him, never would they have taken them for friends and protectors, but most of them are rebellious wrong-doers.

the biography of Prophet Muhammad (saws):
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/

The following is paraphrased from today's (10/08/2001) interview with Rumsfeld via sattelite hookup on CBS news this morning:

Gumbel: Can you assess the damages from last nights bombing raids in Kabul?
Rumsfeld: Its too early for any clear assessment

Gumbel: There are reports from the Taliban that there were collateral damages in the forms of Women, children, and elderly, can you confirm or deny these reports

Rumsfeld: There were no civilian casualties, these were all military targets

Gumbel: I thought you said it was too early for any assessment of the raids

Rumsfeld (now squirming in seat): Uhhhhh...ummmmmm.....welllll...i am 'reasonably' sure what I just said was correct

courtesy of abbstrack

subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You). ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except You). astaghfiruka (I seek Your forgiveness), wa atuubu ilaika (and I turn to You in Repentance).

  

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nyc_rootsfan
Charter member
1025 posts
Tue Oct-09-01 10:10 AM

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26. "RE: my thoughts on bin laden:"
In response to Reply # 25


          

1. you take his word for it? so muslims dont lie? you blindly accept all words of muslims as the truth? thats absurd.

2. his family made his money off western investments,he was raised in an ultra rich enviornment, he is not hte everyman for the arabs.

3. regardless of what he says, what you may agree with he is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of muslims in the africa attacks, which he claimed responsibility for, and clearly masterminded.

4.you think a muslim state based on wahabi interpretation is a good thing?! i think women should have rights, and flogging people all the time probably isnt the most just thing.

5.nobody saw any angels, there is no allah, mohammed was 1 man who managed to convince a bunch of people to follow him, just like every other 'prophet' (there is no yahweh, or white man god in teh white robe and beard etc)

WAKE UP..this isnt about religon its about economics,power, and national spheres colliding..

do you think the women and children starving in afghanistan are happy to have him there? what has he done beside kill and oppress?


  

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urbgriot
Charter member
11445 posts
Wed Oct-10-01 07:18 AM

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30. "Heah"
In response to Reply # 26


          

:-)

https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

  

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