Prompted by recent discussions on children, child raising and education with some fellow okayplayers, I would now like to take the time to ask some of you your thoughts and ideas on certain aspects of raising children. We have on this board a few parents, some experienced, some just entering the journey, and one who has just been blessed with the experience of giving birth. We have psyche majors and a grad student who's specific area of study is early child development, so it seems like a nice foundation of resources are at our disposal. So the question is:

"If we were to take the best parts of everything learned from our experiences thus far in life (and on the boards), how would we best transmit these ideas and what exactly would be taught?"

For example: One might notice the merit that comes with knowing a few languages, and thus want to teach one's child a few from birth by speaking in another tongue during the child's formative years since this is the best time for learning.

One might want to start their child on a vegetarian diet to give it the healthiest start and start a behavior for that child that would certainly benefit him/her in the long run.

One might teach a child about the plethora of ideas that exist in each culture from the point of view of that cultural group, i.e. sending/or visiting with that child, a Yuruba community for a week or two in order to see what it's like first hand, vs. reading about it from a foreign perspective.

Basically this post is aimed at transcending the faults that i've noticed in the world and sometimes on these boards. It's not enough to just talk about the problems that we see, but if there is no plan to outgrow them and to hopefully give the next generation a push to the next level beyond us, then what's the point? We should be able to look at some of the mistakes being made ideologically and behaviorally around us and say to ourselves "how can i teach my child so that s/he dos not repeat these same mistakes?" or at least "what lessons can I teach that will show the pros an cons of a certain behavior and way of thinking?"

In closing, if we were to take some of the best lessons learned from okayactivist and put them into a child (our child) then what would they be? Think about it...try avoid unnecessary jokes (although i suspect this will be blood for the sharks)...and respond/react.

At the very least we can have some good brainstorming as to some of the more positive and applicable teachings and successes that some of us have seen/heard/witnessed...and give guerilla love something to read and ponder over during those few precious QUIET moments she gets by herself!

(((((peace)))))

Red, Black, Green

I think having a child raised in an environment that loves him/her is most important, first and foremost.

In some of my readings on child rearing, i think by an author Scott Peck (i think) he made a point in saying that children are like arrows shot from a bow. The parents are the bow and that as such are involved in steadying the arrow and getting it "lined up" in the way it should go. When the bow is released, it is free to travel anywhere it wants. The key point is that it is "FREE". I think the chapter was on the issue of parents trying to hold onto their children forever, and keep them as children. Thus i come to my point of having a child raised in a loving nurturing environment, but not so much as to create perpetual babies. Children are FARRRRRRR more intelligent than i see some parents giving them credit. I think this has to do somewhat with control and inability to effectively teach.

merican children are educated at a rate and level that far undermines their abilites. An Indian coworker of mines child that always comes in impresses the other coworkers in his ability to grasp concepts that they thought were far beyond that of a child at 7 years of age. One thing i found out upon asking the father about how he knows, is that he started teaching him so-called "adult" topics and thought patterns early.

Someone else made the point to say that children are as intelligent as adults, they are just smaller and cannot do for themselves. I mean, how many times do you hear of parents asking their children to fix an issue on their computers? Children have potential that for whatever reasons is stifled by parents or just not tapped into.

So my ingredient into the activist baby is recognizing its inate potential and taking advantage of it. Doing this, we give it the best start by not limiting ourselves in thinking it is not capable. The goal is for it to surpass us one day and assume our position and accomplish tasks greaetr than ours, so why not psychologically start on our end and stop the cycle of "limiting" children to our level?

other ingredients?

(((((PEACE)))))

Red, Black, Green

People have to allow children to develop (w)holistically, meeting all their needs. It goes beyond intelligence. Children need to know how to effectively deal with adversity: control, ownership, reach and endurance. When kids can turn obstacles into opportunities and be personally free they can become positive, productive people. Personal freedom means being oneself and rejecting conditioning in order to break free of convention...to be creative and innovative in everyday life.

I believe every child come with their own purpose or plan and it's our role to help them realize it.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Everyone seems to have a clear idea of how other people should lead their lives, but none about his or her own"
--Paulo Coelho, "The Alchemist"

"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix" (and a Buddhist philosophy)

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

I will raise my children like my mother raised me with a few exceptions. For one, my mother was a great example for my sister and I. She put us first. She waited until she had her degree and a stable job before she had her first child. Second, she catered her child rearing methods according to each of our personalities. With me she was more hands off and with my sister she had to be more hands on. There are pluses and minuses with this...but it worked. Third, she understood youth developmental needs:

Caring adult(s): We were surrounded by caring people.

Belonging and membership: She allowed us to join everything from a children's ballet group, to Girl Scouts, to a variety of churches/affiliations. We belonged to a Baptist church but we explored Unitarian/Universalist, Pentacostal, Jehovah's Witness, etc.

Competency and mastery: Expectations were high to begin with because my mother spoke/read 3 or 4 different languages, graduated from everything with highest honors, had a degree in philosophy and was a computer programmer/analyst back in the 70's and 80's when there wasn't a lot of Black women doing it. She encouraged us to take pride in good grades and perfect attendance but she never rewarded us with money or gifts. We understood we were accomplishing our goals for ourselves.

Knowledge of self and others: My mother never told us we were Black or that white was right. She encouraged us to be ourselves and we listened to all kinds of music and were exposed to plays, art shows, dance, etc. When I needed therapy at age 12, she paid for it without question. I did not understand why I did not fit in or meet the "ideal" and learned to value my differences and understand others (the status quo) in order to ascend. Most important, she did not shield us from negative people and situations. We learned to thrive despite adversity.

Safety and structure: My mother struggled with the structure/stability part. My mother was/is bipolar and she could not always provide the structure and stability we needed. However, she made sure we were always taken care of, with my grandmother and aunt or us all together when she was manic.

Independence and control over one's life: I am independent and even defiant by nature and my mother encouraged this. She allowed me to climb/take risks and was there when I fell, especially when I was younger. I became more determined and resilient as a result. As an adult, I seldom need other's encouragement in order to be independent or take necessary risks.

Opportunities to contribute: I have always been a giving person. As a child, I made art as gifts for people. I liked being the helper, making art that inspired others and got involved in community service early in my life. When I was 15, I became an assistant in a children's hospital. I went from candy striper to support staff and the experience changed my life. My mother believed that my art was a gift from God and brought others closer to God...so I learned to use my talents to help others.

I still have to deal with social exclusion based on my race and gender and I have to transcend people who are supposed to be supportive but are usually threatened by me but my mother's early support and encouragement was the foundation behind my activism today.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Everyone seems to have a clear idea of how other people should lead their lives, but none about his or her own"
--Paulo Coelho, "The Alchemist"

"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix" (and a Buddhist philosophy)

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

i think that is some good advice. takin notes.

**********THE SIG**********

The point is for us to sit down and make some kind of agreement on some basic things and understand that what is going to be freedom to me, is not necessarily going to be freedom for you. Self-Determination must be a very important part of what We're talking about when We talk about political organization -- political activity -- that has to be underlined because everybody doesn't have the same dream. So, there has to be room for everybody to attempt to move toward that dream, as long as that dream does not include oppressing other people; exploiting other people.
-Assata Shakur

I long for the day when I can go out, eat a raw food breakfast, snack on natural fruit and vegetables, read a book, study and practice a martial art, eat dinner, cultivate my garden, play with my seeds, and rest......
-urbgriot

what are you planning on puttign INTO the child..i.e. attributes, skills, etc...

Red, Black, Green

People are facilitators and nurturers for children...I spent my entire childhood rejecting conditioning so why would I want anyone to put anything into me. It was my choice to take in information, gain certain skills and my mother was there to help me do it.

Many people like to see kids as these vessels that need to be filled. Sure, kids need help/support finding their path and acquiring the skills needed to follow the path but they are not empty. For example, when I learned how to walk it was part of a natural progression- from rolling over to sitting up and standing. The next step was walking and my mother was there to be an example to imitate and encourage me. However, if you put me in a room alone I still would have tried to walk.

Also, I am not like my parents but I exhibit many of their attributes. Neither of my parents are artists, noone left home on their own to follow their dream/path, and so on. I was the first. What I acquired as a kid was all the things I mentioned: safety & structure, competency & mastery, etc. Most important, was a feeling of self worth and ability to ascend (overcome adversity). These are the things I want my children to have.

>what are you planning on puttign
>INTO the child..i.e. attributes, skills,
>etc...


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Everyone seems to have a clear idea of how other people should lead their lives, but none about his or her own"
--Paulo Coelho, "The Alchemist"

"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix" (and a Buddhist philosophy)

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

A couple of quick thoughts:

1. If you don't HAVE a child (and this includes those who have "practically raised" a brother/sister/cousin/nephew/niece/etc) you honestly can't give much advice. why? see number two.

2. there is no guidebook, nor a particular pattern to follow (referencing what may have worked for someone else, what "professionals" say, and what you thought you would/wouldn't do prior to being in the parental/guardian position). anyone who has been or is there will/should give the following advice: do the best you can with what you have.

finally, it's a whole lot easier to say "i love you" than to show it consistently.

(as i close i realize i probably didn't address the specific questions put forth, but nonetheless this is what came out)

becoming a parent, to make you realize just how much you don't know. i have been completely humbled becuase of the experience.

as i think of bits of advice or obaservation, i'll post them.

off the bat, i would say read to them. doesn't really matter what. but you can learn alot about what you're child likes by what books they gravitate towards and which ones they want you to read over and over.

**********THE SIG**********

The point is for us to sit down and make some kind of agreement on some basic things and understand that what is going to be freedom to me, is not necessarily going to be freedom for you. Self-Determination must be a very important part of what We're talking about when We talk about political organization -- political activity -- that has to be underlined because everybody doesn't have the same dream. So, there has to be room for everybody to attempt to move toward that dream, as long as that dream does not include oppressing other people; exploiting other people.
-Assata Shakur

I long for the day when I can go out, eat a raw food breakfast, snack on natural fruit and vegetables, read a book, study and practice a martial art, eat dinner, cultivate my garden, play with my seeds, and rest......
-urbgriot

my daughter from around 12 mos until not too long ago (she's 2 now), she would gnaw on the spine of all books. i used to get so mad cause she would chew on them like i wasn't feeeding her or something. that was how she broke all her books in. so now we have a rack of books with the spine missing in the middle.

they DID NOT tell me about that in my parenting magazines!

**********THE SIG**********

The point is for us to sit down and make some kind of agreement on some basic things and understand that what is going to be freedom to me, is not necessarily going to be freedom for you. Self-Determination must be a very important part of what We're talking about when We talk about political organization -- political activity -- that has to be underlined because everybody doesn't have the same dream. So, there has to be room for everybody to attempt to move toward that dream, as long as that dream does not include oppressing other people; exploiting other people.
-Assata Shakur

I long for the day when I can go out, eat a raw food breakfast, snack on natural fruit and vegetables, read a book, study and practice a martial art, eat dinner, cultivate my garden, play with my seeds, and rest......
-urbgriot

Would you raise your child to be better than you?

i.e. if you knew there was something that you did in your life that was self-admittandly bad, would you try to keep your child away from such? For example, some parents will go outside or away from their child so as to not transmit the idea that it's an "O.K." thing to do.

Would you be able to critique yourself accurately and honestly so that you could teach your child to overcome the pitfalls you may have?

Red, Black, Green

my children to better than me, but how do i do that?
i ask myself that all the time.

as far as something i did that was "self-admittedly bad" - i don't plan to hide that from them. i plan to be honest about my mistakes but also to explain to them what i was thinking, feeling, other people involved in my life...that influenced that decision. and you can only hide your chldren from "bad" things or people for so long. i think it's better to equip them with the necessary tools to survive in the jungle (our world) than it is to hide from them the reality of that jungle in hopes of protecting them.

>Would you be able to critique
>yourself accurately and honestly so
>that you could teach your
>child to overcome the pitfalls
>you may have?

i think so, but i also think it's important to get other people's opinion of you as you were growing up. other people who have known you all your life or even a part of it may have seen things in you that can be helpful in identifying the same traits and tendencies in your child.


**********THE SIG**********

The point is for us to sit down and make some kind of agreement on some basic things and understand that what is going to be freedom to me, is not necessarily going to be freedom for you. Self-Determination must be a very important part of what We're talking about when We talk about political organization -- political activity -- that has to be underlined because everybody doesn't have the same dream. So, there has to be room for everybody to attempt to move toward that dream, as long as that dream does not include oppressing other people; exploiting other people.
-Assata Shakur

I long for the day when I can go out, eat a raw food breakfast, snack on natural fruit and vegetables, read a book, study and practice a martial art, eat dinner, cultivate my garden, play with my seeds, and rest......
-urbgriot

>>my children to better than me, but how do i do that?
i ask myself that all the time.

remember back in the day when all the vegetarian discussions weer going on? one of the answers after it was discussed was that "i just want to eat meat! i know it's bad, but i just want to do it! it's my choice." and that was cool.

my question and interest is: would these same people have their children do something that they KNOW is bad for them? Put another way, "just because YOU are incapable of doing something (not stop eating meat) are you going to subject your child to it?"

in the smoking example, most parents would recognize that smoke is bad for a child's lungs and smoke outside, right?

how would an adult WHO KNOWS eating meat is bad for you, and has accepted the fact that they cannot stop eating it, allow their children the same disservice?

Red, Black, Green

how do you intimate that something is "bad" to your child if they see you doing it.

do as i say, not as i do?

i've yet to see that work. it undermines ALL credibility on the parents part.

children often DO learn what not to do by counterexample (example - you see your parent die of cancer caused by smoking. that's pretty good incentive not to smoke), but this (imho) puts the onus on the child to learn what they haven't really been taught (per se)

i pretty much heard someone justifying smoking this morning to another coworker and just applied the vegetarian example.

funny that people will at least TRY to smoke away from the child or at least tell them that smoking and drugs are bad...

...but even if shown, and ACCEPT that meat eating is bad for you, will not even mention the pros and cons.

just an observation.

Red, Black, Green

meat-eater parents who want a healthier diet for their children eat their chicken legs in their bedroom under the covers at night?

as a parent, you are not just raising your child, you are raising a family. your family moves together. i am thinking a child is not gonna understand why you are eating one thing nd they are eating something different. they watch what you do more so than what you say.

anyways, meat-eating specifically is the staus quo. it's not hard to justify as parent feeding your children meat (especially if you limit it to fish and chicken) becasue that what everybody does. it's a lot harder to raise a veggie child, and add to that not knowing what to feed them or how to prepare it, lack of support from family, having them be "different" at daycare/school...i'm not saying it can't be done, it's just that it's not the easiest way to go.

**********THE SIG**********

The point is for us to sit down and make some kind of agreement on some basic things and understand that what is going to be freedom to me, is not necessarily going to be freedom for you. Self-Determination must be a very important part of what We're talking about when We talk about political organization -- political activity -- that has to be underlined because everybody doesn't have the same dream. So, there has to be room for everybody to attempt to move toward that dream, as long as that dream does not include oppressing other people; exploiting other people.
-Assata Shakur

I long for the day when I can go out, eat a raw food breakfast, snack on natural fruit and vegetables, read a book, study and practice a martial art, eat dinner, cultivate my garden, play with my seeds, and rest......
-urbgriot

and incorporate these behavior in your child...a lot of the independent schools here are veggie, and work with parents towards incorporating that into the home...mainly for parents that recognize the health benefits and who want to make the change themselves.

Red, Black, Green

(specifically for abduhu, though anyone can answer)

If you were raised in one faith and changed to another(for whatever reason), will you teach your child the faith you now hold?

If you made a conscious decision to change from one faith to another because you thought it was better. And you knew that your parents were just doing what they were supposed to do (as dictated by scripture) in raising you in that faith; if YOU changed to another religion despite the teachings of your parents (as dictated by scripture) then why would you do the same for your child?

Red, Black, Green

doesn't this go back to a previous discussion about providing guidance, then allowing your child to make their own decision when they are able?

*shrug*

:) Damn, can i have some fun first? Geez!

no for real. i've always wondered this, because it goes into the effectiveness of socialization...

walleye said this:

"We can't choose our religion in any strict sense of the word 'choose'. All modern definitions of the term religion revolve around it as part of our environment. In that sense, I can choose my religion about as easily as I can choose which language I speak and my hometown."


...in the other post. some people actually think their ideas are their own and have no idea as to the reality of socialization whatsoever. if one was educated and reared in one way, and decided to change, then ideologically wouldn't it be better to give the child a "choice based" education from the get go?

personally i think people are afraid to let their children "go out" and choose out of fear of them finding something better, or not doing the "God" instructed thing by "raising the child in the way that it should go..."

this also points to another aspect of the "god" concept and its tenets. the fact that transmission from parent to child is initiated from birth and strong (being that the bond of parent/child is strong) a child's mind has no chance (or very little) at deviancy.

the creators of the "god" concept were VERY effective if you ask me.

Red, Black, Green

>then ideologically wouldn't it
>be better to give the
>child a "choice based" education
>from the get go?

i don't think you ever remove someone's ability to choose. you can punish AFTER the choice, you can attempt to control the choices (laws and such), but people have a very deep "find a way or make one" streak in them which defies all ability to control if the individual chooses to.

now the issue of what leads a particualr individual to make a particular choice (enviromnment or whatever) makes an interesting convo (many have discussed this at length includeing myself, and people deemed "experts"), but the idea of whether you have "free will" (there goes THAT term again) seems untouchable to me.

i feel you on the choice thing though...

however, the first thing that comes to my mind is REALITY.

*if my thoughts were voiced*

"remember we ARE talking about sheep here. the same people who became geneticists after Jurassic Park. to think they REALLY have this thing called "choice" is to deny what i see every sunday as i pass in front of a church watching the same sinners i saw last night in front of 559."

Red, Black, Green

>"remember we ARE talking about sheep
>here. the same people who
>became geneticists after Jurassic Park.

this is like saying the same people who become network engineers after 2001 or something. wtf?

>to think they REALLY have
>this thing called "choice" is
>to deny what i see
>every sunday as i pass
>in front of a church
>watching the same sinners i
>saw last night in front
>of 559."

similarly, i don't get this either. what does going to church have to do with going to 559 (and what does the combination of tose have to do with choice)? as a matter of fact, if the implication is that they were sinning while IN 559, what better place for them than church (if that's where they feel they can/should go)?


you're on a roll...

(or is that one of those "can you believe someone said something this misguided" type deals)

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------
"What are we as African Americans? Let's really examine how we are contributing to the projection of our own images of ourselves. What are we really willing to give up? Our integrity? The honor of our community, just for some money? "-Jada

>(specifically for abduhu, though anyone can
>answer)
>
>If you were raised in one
>faith and changed to another(for
>whatever reason), will you teach
>your child the faith you
>now hold?

yep.

>If you made a conscious decision
>to change from one faith
>to another because you thought
>it was better. And you
>knew that your parents were
>just doing what they were
>supposed to do (as dictated
>by scripture) in raising you
>in that faith; if YOU
>changed to another religion despite
>the teachings of your parents
>(as dictated by scripture) then
>why would you do the
>same for your child?

rephrase.

reword, using periods, commas, colons, etc....wher they shoud be so i can comprehend what you are saying.

or make the point you are getting at, so i can understand better where you are coming from with it.
___________________________________
Words to ponder over............

3.7 He it is Who has >sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established, clear meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are not entirely clear. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is not clear, seeking discord, and searching for hidden meanings in it, but no one knows its interpretation except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

the biography of Prophet Muhammad (saws):
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/
___________________________________
subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You). ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except You). astaghfiruka (I seek Your forgiveness), wa atuubu ilaika (and I turn to You in Repentance).

If your parents raised you to be a Christian, and you decided to become a muslim because you saw that it was better(?)...then why would you raise your child to be a muslim, knowning that there was a point in time when you made a change yourself?

Had you not had the opportunity to choose, or "faculties" to make that "better" choice, you would still be worshipping the Christian "God". And being that you "did" make a change, why not take the knowledge of how things could've turned out (had you stuck w/ christianity) and give your child a foundation where he won't necessarily be directed towards "either" faith, and thus choose his own?

Red, Black, Green

Even if you are convinced veganism is the only healthy way to eat, do you show your kids different diets let them choose for themselves, as you yourself probably did?

---------------------
Thursday, June 17th
Dujeous @ Bowery Ballroom
6 Delancey Street (at Bowery)
w/Addison Groove Project &
Gutbucket
10PM~$13
DUJEOUS debut LP "CITY
LIMITS" INSTOSNOW.
Buy my shit.

like i told glove, i plan on feeding my kid vegan, and then introducing poisoned meat that will give him/her a cold or hives or something so that there will be a psychological aversion to meat. as a baby i will hold a steack or chicken wing above him and crash some cymbals as he tries to reach for it. it's called brainwashing people. hellooooowwwww...

Red, Black, Green

Im not sure if you're joking though.

---------
Alex

Everything's OK.

---------------------
Thursday, June 17th
Dujeous @ Bowery Ballroom
6 Delancey Street (at Bowery)
w/Addison Groove Project &
Gutbucket
10PM~$13
DUJEOUS debut LP "CITY
LIMITS" INSTOSNOW.
Buy my shit.

>If your parents raised you to
>be a Christian, and you
>decided to become a muslim
>because you saw that it
>was better(?)...then why would you
>raise your child to be
>a muslim, knowning that there
>was a point in time
>when you made a change
>yourself?

b/c:
1. i see that being a muslim is better way to be
2. what i DID, has nothing to do with what he/she WILL DO.
3. the change i made was made manifest by my own personal situation, that he/she will never have to be exposed to or go through, insha'allah, and therefore has no ramifications on his/her future choices.
4. i would want to make the path as smooth as can be, so they wont have to go through what i went through.

the thing i think you are missing, is that raisng a child in said manner, will not take away their ability to make choices, when they are no longer children.
it might sway them, but they will have the ability to sway back, if they want to, nonetheless.

>Had you not had the opportunity
>to choose, or "faculties" to
>make that "better" choice, you
>would still be worshipping the
>Christian "God". And being that
>you "did" make a change,
>why not take the knowledge
>of how things could've turned
>out (had you stuck w/
>christianity) and give your child
>a foundation where he won't
>necessarily be directed towards "either"
>faith, and thus choose his
>own?

b/c that is a buddhist way of doing things, and im not buddhist.

you approaching a muslims situation from a buddhist perspective, is like me trying to answer question 1&2 from a muslims perspective.

i will definitely give him/her a foundation in islam, b/c that is a right of them and an obligation of mine. and when they reach the age of "responsiblity", they will determine their own course, and i will be free of their choice and the consequences of their choice, insha'allah.

and without me going into any details about my "chrisian" life to them, he/she will have knowledge (what matters anyway) about my previous way and through their foundation of islam.

whatever is benefcial of dunya (worldly) knowledge, they will get it. my goal is to make the path as smooth as i can make it. sure i want them to learn from their mistakes, but i would rather have them make no mistakes to learn from. but alas, humans will be humans.

and if they dont know anything else, theyll know toyotas are better cars than american cars, thats for sure.

but if they still wanna get a dodge..............
___________________________________
Words to ponder over............

3.7 He it is Who has >sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established, clear meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are not entirely clear. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is not clear, seeking discord, and searching for hidden meanings in it, but no one knows its interpretation except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

the biography of Prophet Muhammad (saws):
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/
___________________________________
subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You). ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except You). astaghfiruka (I seek Your forgiveness), wa atuubu ilaika (and I turn to You in Repentance).

>If your parents raised you to
>be a Christian, and you
>decided to become a muslim
>because you saw that it
>was better(?)...then why would you
>raise your child to be
>a muslim, knowning that there
>was a point in time
>when you made a change
>yourself?
I am expecting my first child now, and this is a question that I have most definitely considered...I was raised Christian, and currently ascribe to no particular religion, although I have a close relationship and hold a deep reverence for the Creator. The way that I arrived at my own personal conclusion is from (I believe) my upbringing as a Christian. Easter, Xmas, Communion, Baptism, and other Christian rituals were all a part of my upbrining. As I got older, I started to explore and investigate other faiths, and by the time I came out of college, I had a completely different understanding and stronger relationship with the Divine than I've ever had. Were it not for my questioning what my parents believed, I would have never been able to see what I see now. And even though we argued about our separate beliefs, it only made my faith stronger. However, the one thing I would do differently from my parents this time around would be to allow and support my child's efforts to investigate and get closer to GOD as they get older. The Christian foundation is good, but to me it only serves as a template for understanding the "concept" of GOD. Being fearful of God, the threat of eternal hell, white jesus, etc... I will do without. But the basic blueprint is a good launching pad for the novice--as he/she gets older I would love to have a conversation with my child about new discoveries, theories, and questions that they may have, because I think it will only bring us closer. Shit, I'm still learning myself!

Well, I should say...I'm going to find a church we can attend together. One that will give them all the good stuff that comes w/going to church, and a minimal amount of the bad stuff. (I can always deprogram them after we get home).

Why? B/c there's lots of wonderful things going on in churches. Lots of Afr-American traditions are learned there...our culture is in there. Plus, good churches foster a great sense of community or family. I don't want my kids to miss out on that. Churches also do a pretty good job of reinforcing the idea that there is Right and Wrong in this world. It's important that the kids get some other sources backing up what I teach them at home about morality & ethics. (Like I said, I can always deprogram them when we get home if they pick up some nonsense.)

There's good stuff to be had in church. It's all about finding the RIGHT one.
___________

HotThyng76 is gone.

fuck you.

...sending my kids to church.

Red, Black, Green

b/c I'm going w/mine.

fuck you.

i'll be right there singing "I've got that joy, joy, joy ,joy down in my heart...!"

Red, Black, Green

are a big part of the reason I want to go to church w/my kids.

Hopefully there'll be one of those hot, jumping choirs.

fuck you.

i like those choirs better...for some reason, the jumping kind remind me of itching monkeys.

Red, Black, Green

I want my kids to go to church b/c I feel it was good for me. If Catholic church was good for you, then go for it.

fuck you.

or at least i blocked it out...but a catholic experience seemed the most interesting to me. either that, or the vegetarian 7th day adventists.

Red, Black, Green

fuck you.

the singing is part of the reasons i am NEVER going back to a lutheran church *shudder*

if i do go back to church, it'll be one with a sangin' choir...i'd like to clap my hands & stomp my feet a little or somethin, damn...

_________________________________________________________
*moment of silence for all those lost & those yet to be found*

"i abound with shelectricity..." ~~ursula rucker

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

while i was always glad my mom kind of pulled us out of church early and said that we could make our own decisions about it, i always wished i had a "church family" like so many of my friends seemed to...

i'm still deciding on that one...

i do want to teach my kids how to meditate. i was exposed to it at a young age, and i think it can be very beneficial.

_________________________________________________________
*moment of silence for all those lost & those yet to be found*

"i abound with shelectricity..." ~~ursula rucker

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

i started with a name. my daughter's name is theory sera.
theory as in: a system of assumptions, accepted principles and/or rules of procedure devised to analyze, predict or explain a set of phenomena. (theory is also a cool clothing line, so the name is deep yet ghetto. j/k) sera as in: seraphim, the angel, the highest class of celestial being... and my grandmother's name was sarah. obviously, i believe in names having "power" or "energy." i mostly believe this based on observation coupled with all that zodiac stuff...

when my daughter was born, i was so surprised that she looked just like me. it's so interesting to see... you wait nine months, imagining what your child is going to look like... everyone says newborns are funny looking, but when she/he's yours, it's just wow.

on health:
women must understand how important it is to "eat right" and "take care" while pregnant. your baby can be born perfectly healthy and bright, but fives years later, have learning problems (one example) as a result of what you did/did not eat, chemicals you exposed yourself to, high stress levels... of course one can do everything "right" and face such problems, but the point is to be aware. women should also know/understand the benefits of breastfeeding before deciding against it.

as far as the child's diet, i think children need to be exposed to a variety of foods including meat and dairy from ages 1 to 5, esp. for determining allergies. some children will just naturally shy away from meat. if you are a meat eater, and want your child not to eat meat to be healthier than you, you need to stop eating meat. your health as a parent is important as well, denying your health could lead to denying your child a parent... as with smoking and so on...

on talent and education:
every parent should see her/his child as and individual, from birth. as you watch your child grow, you will see she has a knack for some things... of course you want her to be well rounded, but if you see a knack developing into a talent, help your child nurture that talent. buy books and materials specifically related to the things you see your child has a long term interest in. even toys, you can tailor toys to your child's interest instead of just buying the standard truck and barbie... (maybe this instead of barbie: http://www.estyle.com/common/dProductDetail.asp?PMId=8742&SIND=2&frm=1&cmCL=artscrafts&cmPG=ktoys&cmDM=10)

when your child begins school, use your child's talents to help her learn and understand concepts she is having trouble with. i also believe in the different kinds of smarts - like visually smart, verbally smart, emotionally smart, tech smart... no child is "stupid." stupidity seems to be a learned condition...

i guess that's all i have for now...

i like your daughter's name too. cool.

Red, Black, Green

i actually bought this cartoonish book called "how to talk to your child about god." it has all these biblical quotes, explanations and such... i was reared as a christian, sent to church with others, though my mom didn't really go. and when i was old enough to decide the christian life was not for me, my mother's husband MADE me go to church thinking that would curb any sexual thoughts i was having. but southern baptist churches are full of sex! the preacher, if not the choir director, is sleeping with "everyone." the men always want to give you a hello/goodbye hug that lasts way too long... the women wear subtly revealing outfits, and i swear they "get happy" just to expose a breast. wildness. my younger brothers were not required/forced to go to church, knew nothing of the bible... then their school friends started telling them they needed to be saved... they started going to church and enjoyed all the "social" aspects. they went on retreats and such, started preaching the word to me even... i was like please, this church thing is just a phase. and it was...

so i'm saying, i just want to speak with some knowledge on christianity because i have to assume my daughter will be exposed to christian thinking. i can't remember anything "taught" in church, except for psalms... see i don't remember... it's the for god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son passage. *shrugs*(© boodaah)

hopefully, i can approach all religions from a historic pov without relying on pure faith...

A few quick thoughts: my child will have a name with relevant meaning like my parents gave me; my child will have dreadlocks; no baby talk; great emphasis on education; i won't be too strict; no fast food or any other nasty food; will have to follow me to sporting events and will have to share hatred for the Utah Jazz, Arsenal and Leeds United; will be brought up to be proud of his/her black ass; i will be more physically caring than my father was/is but still the crazy, funny mofo that he is though. Thats all i think (I hope I have a daughter though, when the time comes, knock on wood)

---------------------------------------
I hate the smell of beadies
and you have a bunch of dinky friends, and a adolescent staff...
You are immature

Kool Keith "Backstage Passes"

>>will have to follow me to sporting events and will have to share hatred for the Utah Jazz

WORD!!!

also: what about T.V. ?

Red, Black, Green

I'll be more liberal with TV cuz frankly I grew up on the idiot box, but I would try assert some control over what they watch. No TV in any bedrooms though (not even mine).

---------------------------------------
I hate the smell of beadies
and you have a bunch of dinky friends, and a adolescent staff...
You are immature

Kool Keith "Backstage Passes"

I remember reading somewhere that baby talk is actually good for the pre-literate child's learning. Once they begin speaking the baby talk should stop.

fuck you.

If that's really the case I guess I will have to change, but I would rather read socialist manifestos to my child in a goofy voice than do all that 'goo goo ga ga' mess, nah mean.

---------------------------------------
I hate the smell of beadies
and you have a bunch of dinky friends, and a adolescent staff...
You are immature

Kool Keith "Backstage Passes"

The point is to speak real words in a slow manner. Draw out the vowels & strong consonant sounds.

Say: Mmmmaaaaaaaaaa-rrrx. and repeat it a few times.

fuck you.

ca-pi-ta-liiii-zim baaaaaaad, good baby


---------------------------------------
I hate the smell of beadies
and you have a bunch of dinky friends, and a adolescent staff...
You are immature

Kool Keith "Backstage Passes"

My daughter Zami just turned 14 months old (I don't know if anyone here remembers when she was first born, our picture was on the News page the next day or so). She is growing so fast and smart as any 3 year old I've ever met!

Being new to this childraising thing, I'll share with you some of my partner and my ideas/practices in raising her:

First and foremost, she is our little friend. We give her the love and respect that we would give to our best friends. She sees us as her buddies as well. She is very affectionate and expressive and we try to reflect that to her in our interactions with each other and her.

She has been given a steady diet of breast milk and organic vegetarian foods. Sheeet, when I think of all the shit I ate as a kid (Twinkies, sneakin' Fruit Loops at my Grandma's etc) she is so far ahead of the game in terms of health, and she reflects that accordingly. She is the healthiest kid I've ever seen .. full of life and joy. We also haven't vaccinated her as we consider these substances poisons 9 not to mention the cause of many diseases that we're seeing today). If there's an out break of anything serious, we may reconsider this (and this goes for just about everything. We are not purists by any streach of the imagination, but we try to remain conscious of the truths that we are presented with).

We let her explore her world, which she takes advantage of. She is wildly explorative and inquisative. We sure nuff let her know when she's in danger and explain what that's all about, but we try not to stifle her natural inquisitiveness. We want more than anything for her to know freedom.

Although she is technically "biracial (African, Cherokee, French, British to be more exact), we will let her know of the cultures from which she comes, but pretty much identify her as black ... but black in the most broad understanding of that word (like how in England all people of color:Jamaicans, South Asians etc identify as "black" in a positive, empowered way). She has good relationships with all her family, but we generally move in circles that are dominated by people of color.

She is alraedy a fantastic drummer, dancer and singer. She knows of the world of the spirit (perhaps more than we do) and has joined us in our extended espiritual family/practice.

Names are important too, and she is named for Audre Lorde (Her auto-mythography is called Zami: A New Spelling of My Name). Zami (our daughter) is smart as a whip, already a critical thinker, and highly willful. We subtlly encourage rebelliousness in her, knowing that it will come to haunt us one day, but also know that she'll thank us for it one day ...

love and respect,
El Rey

dedicated to preserving and sharing
the music, dance and stories of the
African diasporic experience:
http://www.wemba-music.org

SUPPORT GOOD MUSIC:
http://www.mp3.com/Esthetics

"Yo he preferido hablar a cosas
imposibles, porque de lo posible se
sabe demasiado." -- Silvio Rodriguez

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
who are you









really

that's what i'm talkin' about!

Red, Black, Green

I'm going to do everything I can to do right by her till the day I die.

About the schooling question ... I dunno yet. To me homeschooling is the lojical thing to do, and we know plenty of people who have gone that route. I guess we'll crocc that bridge when we come to it.. We're toying with the idea of leaving the country (and getting that second/third .. language issue happening) so i don't know what it will all mean in another context like that.

We'll see. Untill then, we'll just keep giving her all the love and respect she deserves.

Don't sleep on the next generation fam. They're here.

love and respect,
El Rey

dedicated to preserving and sharing
the music, dance and stories of the
African diasporic experience:
http://www.wemba-music.org

SUPPORT GOOD MUSIC:
http://www.mp3.com/Esthetics

"Yo he preferido hablar a cosas
imposibles, porque de lo posible se
sabe demasiado." -- Silvio Rodriguez

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
who are you









really

**********THE SIG**********

The point is for us to sit down and make some kind of agreement on some basic things and understand that what is going to be freedom to me, is not necessarily going to be freedom for you. Self-Determination must be a very important part of what We're talking about when We talk about political organization -- political activity -- that has to be underlined because everybody doesn't have the same dream. So, there has to be room for everybody to attempt to move toward that dream, as long as that dream does not include oppressing other people; exploiting other people.
-Assata Shakur

I long for the day when I can go out, eat a raw food breakfast, snack on natural fruit and vegetables, read a book, study and practice a martial art, eat dinner, cultivate my garden, play with my seeds, and rest......
-urbgriot

>She has been given a steady
>diet of breast milk and
>organic vegetarian foods. (that's why she's smart...)

>We also haven't vaccinated her
>as we consider these substances
>poisons 9 not to mention
>the cause of many diseases
>that we're seeing today). If
>there's an out break of
>anything serious, we may reconsider
>this (and this goes for
>just about everything. We are
>not purists by any streach
>of the imagination, but we
>try to remain conscious of
>the truths that we are
>presented with).

are you going to home school her? i couldn't even get my daughter into day care with her vaccinations... sucks...

vaccinations. there's a form and you can check 'religious reasons' or something like that and sign it.


**********THE SIG**********

The point is for us to sit down and make some kind of agreement on some basic things and understand that what is going to be freedom to me, is not necessarily going to be freedom for you. Self-Determination must be a very important part of what We're talking about when We talk about political organization -- political activity -- that has to be underlined because everybody doesn't have the same dream. So, there has to be room for everybody to attempt to move toward that dream, as long as that dream does not include oppressing other people; exploiting other people.
-Assata Shakur

I long for the day when I can go out, eat a raw food breakfast, snack on natural fruit and vegetables, read a book, study and practice a martial art, eat dinner, cultivate my garden, play with my seeds, and rest......
-urbgriot

this reminds me of how lisa bonet and lenny kravitz raised zoe... i'm curious to see how she "turns out."

I'll probably raise my kid(s) the same way my mom and dad raised me. That's all I know and I'm happy with the job they did. They didn't have a whole lot of extra time for me and my sis but the time we did share was well-used. We always had (and still do when possible) dinner together, my mom and dad always checked and re-checked our homework, my dad never leaves the house for work without waking us up for a kiss on the cheek and a quick I love you. They really let me enjoy being a kid. Didn't try to push too hard or take the fun out of everything. The only thing I would do in addition to all of that is expose my child(ren) to more diverse cultures and allow them the freedom to develop in other ways besides intellectually. My parents would have loved to do a lot more for me and my sis but money and time were big issues so we just made due with what we had. The thing I most appreciate about my mom and dad is their honesty. I've never been afraid to talk to them about anything. The role of parent and child is very clear, but, they are also my two best friends. They never tried to make it seem like they've been perfect their entire life and that I was the first person in the world to do this or to want to try that. So, I wouldn't change from what I know, I'd just take it to another level since I'm anticipating that I'll have the resources to do so.

...if I were a superhero, I'd be Had-It-Up-to-Here Woman, sneaking around grocery stores, malls, and amusement parks all over the world. With lightning speed, I'd snatch up bad azz kids and give them three swift licks with my golden switch and vanish into thin air before anyone knew what happened...

Pet Peeve of the Month:

People who call your house with the wrong number. If you call for Mike and I say Mike doesn't live here, don't say "but isn't this his number" or "but didn't I dial XXX-XXXX" because I will tell you no. No, it's not his number. If it was I would let you speak to him. And don't hang up and have your friend call 2 minutes later. I'll say, "Hey, I hear your friend in the background. I just told him(her) that Mike doesn't live here."

Look over to your left...yeah, up in the corner. As a suggestion, you may want to take two.

?

Red, Black, Green

Unfortunately, TV is one of those things kids pick up from other kids and then bring home. I hope and pray I can keep my kids away from crap like those awful Disney videos/DVDs & Nickelodeon and shit. (Just like at age 6 I learned about Santa from other kids and asked my mother about him. She'd never ever mentioned him to me before...but I was so convinced he was real she played into it for 2 years.)

fuck you.

for real? damn. i'll use t.v. as a teaching tool come jr. high school. until then i'll be recording and collecting educationaltapes on stuff...discovery channel/history channel/etc.

Red, Black, Green

I don't want to deny my kids the joy of entertainment. But I don't want them to become zombies either.

I think my mother did a good job w/me on that score. She let me watch TV, but it was never my babysitter. My TV time was very limited. I did more playing in the sandbox on the playground and exploration of my neighborhood than TV watching.

fuck you.

i plan on getting the whole collection of some shows:

(don't laugh, i'm serious)

Little House on the Prairie. (pre-teen)

Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman. (high school)

Captain Planet cartoon series. (young)

Cosby Show. (jr. high)

A Different World (when he/she reaches the high school level)

Red, Black, Green

the entire series of saturday night live!

Red, Black, Green

what type of social activities are good learnign experiences to have? which ones would you do wothout?

Red, Black, Green

I don't want to shield them from the good character building stuff that happens on the playground and at recess and on play-dates.

Most likely I'll just find (or create) a group of kids whose parents I trust and let kids play together. I can't control what happens when they're in group situations, and I don't want to.

fuck you.

children's museums are good
have theme parties or find a nice bookstore that has a storytelling hour
take a group of kids out to lunch on a saturday afternoon
go to the zoo

just make sure it's something that the kids can get up and move around with or something that'll keep them interested

...if I were a superhero, I'd be Had-It-Up-to-Here Woman, sneaking around grocery stores, malls, and amusement parks all over the world. With lightning speed, I'd snatch up bad azz kids and give them three swift licks with my golden switch and vanish into thin air before anyone knew what happened...

Pet Peeve of the Month:

People who call your house with the wrong number. If you call for Mike and I say Mike doesn't live here, don't say "but isn't this his number" or "but didn't I dial XXX-XXXX" because I will tell you no. No, it's not his number. If it was I would let you speak to him. And don't hang up and have your friend call 2 minutes later. I'll say, "Hey, I hear your friend in the background. I just told him(her) that Mike doesn't live here."

Look over to your left...yeah, up in the corner. As a suggestion, you may want to take two.

My daughter: Nobantu Zenzele Akili, is now 8, in the 4th grade, a vegetarian and former lock-wearer. At 8 she is just now really starting to see herself as different than the norm from having 2 parents in a loving committed relationship together and with her to her African-centered life-style. There are questions, struggles and I've (we've) determined to pick and choose our battles: tired of locks? OK, Eat meat, no. Tired of piano lessons? fine. Watch anything but educational t.v. during the week and then only for an hour? NO. From Friday to Sunday, you can watch cartoons, the WB, what ever. We will watch and laugh and critique together.

As far as religion, well I'm teaching her acceptance of different religions/spiritual systems/world views.(I hate the word tolerance, it sounds like you don't really like the shit but you'll tolerate it.) She goes to church with Grandma sometimes and like someone said, the Black church (Baptist or Catholic)is a hotbed of Black culture. It's like the beauty shop or barber shop. I'll take her to get her hair washed and conditioned there just for the culture, you know? She knows I'm not Christian or Muslium but I'm still trying to find a religion that fits my personal view of God. The closest I've come is Earthseed with out the space travel(read Octavia Butler's Parable of the Sower and Parable of the Talents).

In the end, you gotta love em, respect em, encourage them and raise em to be free open honest thinkers lovers, planners, builders.

Yimhotep

being that psychological location is 15 bajillion times more important than physical location, i think u should find what spiritual system u "lean" towards. this will probably come from whatever your lineage is, i guess u and your wife, not just u, then both of u can decide on what u will practise (Yoruba, Akan, etc.) for some Kemetic spirituality is the way to go and since most African Spiritual Systems are Maat-based anyway u can't go wrong, so whether u want to call the Divine Forces Orisa or Neteru it's all good. u can find out your respective lineages from a trained person.

it is important that we are located not in the Arabia or in China or in Europe but @ Home, so while we can draw on the positive aspects from any "religion" it is important that our center be @ Home.
Shemhotep
************
"Be not arrogant because of your knowledge. Take counsel with the ignorant as well as with the wise. For the limits of knowledge in any field have never been set and no one has ever reached them. Wisdom is rarer than emeralds, and yet it is found among the women who gather at the grindstones."
-The Book of Ptahhotep(excerpt)

Kemetian
--------------------------------------
check it out:
www.natureworksforyou.co
m

"Pour libation for your father
and mother who rest in the
valley of the dead. God will
witness your action and
accept it. Do not forget to
do this

Thanks for the feedback. I've always "leaned" toward West African religions-We were married in a totally Yoruba ceremony- everyone including our southern baptist family elders wore Afican clothing out in the rose garden palm wine, babalawo and all. Maybe later in life I'll go all the way with that one,for now I'm forever searching... and actually learning so much about the whole world along the way.

I think it's good that they get some exposure to tv and what it's saying (just so they can get a handle on what other people are seeing), but it's equally important to watch WITH them so you can explain and diffuse what they're seeing.

_________________________________________________________
*moment of silence for all those lost & those yet to be found*

"i abound with shelectricity..." ~~ursula rucker

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

my youngest brother and i watch a lot of tv... but my other brother watches little if any, he has "other interests." you know, he actually reads books (j/k), listens to music, sits with his "thoughts."

i think children watch a lot of tv when it seems their "entertainment" options are limited. my daughter (11 months) is only interested in car commercials, and the occasional pop video. also - and esp. - the commercial for foxwoods casino...

i grew up on sesame street, little house on the prairie, the waltons, and of course the young and the restless... but then fox network came to chester... channel 5... spiderman and married with children...

i'd prefer that my children watched as little tv as possible.
i know that when i was a child i learned so much more from running around in the forests, mountains and nature than i did from tv.
when i came home from school or daycare i'd leave my bags at the frontdoor and disappear into the wilderness till i got hungry.
i'd go alone or with a friend.
explore and learn.
i want my children to have that opportunity.
i don't want them to be sitting in front of cartoon network for five hours a day...
now a limited amount of tv with good quality (which is relatively rare) would be positive, but on the whole it would be as little tv-watching as possible.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
ain't no blood in my body,:
it's liquid soul in my veins :